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View Full Version : why no auto release in hunter ring? is it penalized?



flyracing
Mar. 24, 2010, 05:41 PM
As the title says.

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 24, 2010, 05:56 PM
Nope, not penalized. Use whatever release is best for your horse.

Theodoreboris@aol.com
Mar. 24, 2010, 06:01 PM
It actually wouldn't be penalized, but should be rewarded. It's just a fad of today's professional hunter riders. They do it, the juniors follow. A lot of people prefer the crest release for the hunters, and everyone has a different opinion. I think the automatic release is much more beautiful than a crest release, because it looks less posy.

mroades
Mar. 24, 2010, 07:27 PM
I love the look of the auto release...hate the butt in the air, over-exaggerated hands above the crest thing that is the rage in the hunters these days

hollynanne
Mar. 24, 2010, 07:30 PM
I love the look of the auto release...hate the butt in the air, over-exaggerated hands above the crest thing that is the rage in the hunters these days
It goes so well with the "hunter-hula"!
:lol:

headsupheelsdown
Mar. 24, 2010, 07:32 PM
The auto-release isn't a fad! It's the way I have always known is correct(been riding 36 years). I have never understood this whole "crest release" fad. Yes, for beginners just learning balance... but then go to auto release to show independent seat and hand, not having to balance yourself by placing your hands on the neck. Auto release was around LONG before crest releases!

tidy rabbit
Mar. 24, 2010, 08:07 PM
It's because you're supposed to ride the hunters with your hands in your lap so when you get to the jump you can make a big dramatic move and throw your hands up the horses neck and have all that floppy excess rein show off your horse's jump. Right? :lol:

hntrjmprpro45
Mar. 24, 2010, 08:10 PM
Neither release is more or less "correct"- they are different and have different uses. Since hunter is judging the horse, use whatever you need to for the individual horse and individual situation. I would like to see more of it in the Eq ring- a nice auto release looks great but a lot of times that level of finesse is not needed as much with today's courses and horses.

Personally I use the crest release more than the auto but some horses I ride are better suited with the auto (usually the ones that like to drift or do other silly things).

equidae
Mar. 24, 2010, 08:14 PM
I would like to see more of it in the Eq ring- a nice auto release looks great but a lot of times that level of finesse is not needed as much with today's courses and horses.


This is what I was going to say. With regular hunter courses it isn't needed as much as the jumpers and eq courses. Not that it's a bad thing to do, but I guess it just isn't needed as much. We all know GM wants every higher level rider regardless of the ring they're in, to do it ;) He loves that auto-release.

chunky munky
Mar. 24, 2010, 08:16 PM
i think that the release is what suits your riding and your horse. And who really cares? Just show your horse the best way. Trust me, judges do not care. And look at the photos from the Olympics...where are their hands? Up top, or down low? Do you think the horses care? Just give them what they need to jump their best.

TheOrangeOne
Mar. 24, 2010, 08:34 PM
If you need the amount of control and influence that an automatic release provides to jump a very simple 3'6 course, that is a big problem and not something you want to advertise.

DMK
Mar. 24, 2010, 08:51 PM
If you need the amount of control and influence that an automatic release provides to jump a very simple 3'6 course, that is a big problem and not something you want to advertise.


bing bing bing, we have a winner. The auto demonstrates YOUR skill as a rider, not necessarily how skilled your hunter is and how exceptional his form is (and you know, until hunters start awarding bonus points for mad rider skilz, the auto should not be rewarded in a hunter class). However while I enjoy a nice mid jump nap and some ears for a snack as much as the next rider, you can still choose to NOT drape all the way up there and still not be doing an auto.

Sometimes I see conversations about the auto devolve into typical knee jerk reactions - you see a lot of bad crest releases and instead of thinking about the value of a GOOD one, the only correct answer is to do an auto? Baby, bathwater, much? :lol:

headsupheelsdown
Mar. 24, 2010, 09:52 PM
i think that the release is what suits your riding and your horse. And who really cares? Just show your horse the best way. Trust me, judges do not care. And look at the photos from the Olympics...where are their hands? Up top, or down low? Do you think the horses care? Just give them what they need to jump their best.

True, but that is jumpers in the Olympics, not hunters.

I do not feel at all that an auto release/following hand indicates a problem horse. It is correct, traditional equitation that will show off your hunter. I see those perchy crest releases and I think beginner rider trying to keep their balance because they do not have an independent seat and hand. I know that is not the case in the vast majority of riders, that crest releases are just a popular style, but I am old and a traditionalist! JMHO

nlk
Mar. 24, 2010, 09:57 PM
I didn't read everyone's responses soooo I could be throwing myself under the bus BIG time!!!

My understanding was always this. A hunter course is based on the horse. You want to make your horse look like any joe blow can get on him and go for a nice little hunt. Now with that in mind when you are "looping" your reins and resting on the neck for a crest release you are saying "hey look at my horse he will jump anything as nice as can be with NO assistance from me." AND you are not impeding your horses natural form over the jumps by using your reins.

Same goes for our half seat. It's essentially to say look I can perch up here and my horse is just going to go along AND you are not using your seat, body, what ever to really get in his way, it's his natural movement you are just showcasing it.

It's the equivalent of western pleasure the looser the rein shows how dead broke your little pony is!:lol:

mvp
Mar. 24, 2010, 10:08 PM
DMK and Orange have it right, plus hunters get ridden by all sorts of incompetent people.

In this scenario, GM and others felt it best to teach us incompetents the crest release. It was a damage control thing.

Then it became a common look, in part because it helped get noobs into the show ring that much faster. And there they were-- in the ring, in photos, in lessons and clinics-- establishing an aesthetic standard in a very rigid sport.

Back to damage control and the ideal hunter-- that horse should jump beautifully for anyone. But your average horse with you average rider is more likely to jump better if he trusts that you'll let go of his face every time.

At some point (and I secretly like this) it became cool to float the reins a few strides out when you saw your distance.

I think this trend developed after the WB invasion and the canter got so long and slow. Riders had the time to see a distance and adjust with their body, allowing the horse to use his front end just as well as he possibly could.

Some day, I'll have one so broke that I do the whole course this way-- all off my eye and shoulder a few degrees forward or more upright.

chunky munky
Mar. 25, 2010, 05:01 AM
True, but that is jumpers in the Olympics, not hunters.

I do not feel at all that an auto release/following hand indicates a problem horse. It is correct, traditional equitation that will show off your hunter. I see those perchy crest releases and I think beginner rider trying to keep their balance because they do not have an independent seat and hand. I know that is not the case in the vast majority of riders, that crest releases are just a popular style, but I am old and a traditionalist! JMHO

Sorry, I think that the so called auto release requires the rider to bend over lower, which is not necesary at the 3'6" height. At 3'6" it looks silly. I can go with it at 4'6". Use it where it is necesssary. It is not in the Medal and Maclay.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Mar. 25, 2010, 05:23 AM
It's so nice to see how many successful, top-level hunter riders we have on this board! I am QUITE impressed.

Would one of you skilled, experienced, upper level pro riders mind telling me why SO many hunters go in a standing martingale? While you're at it, can you give me an example of a hack winner?

TIA :c)

SillyHorse
Mar. 25, 2010, 08:16 AM
Sorry, I think that the so called auto release requires the rider to bend over lower, which is not necesary at the 3'6" height. At 3'6" it looks silly. I can go with it at 4'6". Use it where it is necesssary. It is not in the Medal and Maclay.
How much lower can you bend over than sticking your butt up in the air and lying on the horse's neck?

mroades
Mar. 25, 2010, 08:35 AM
hmmm, have any of you seen Lillie Keenan show a horse? She actually does it very close to perfectly.

LudgerFan
Mar. 25, 2010, 09:04 AM
You know why the following hand is so rarely seen? Because it takes extensive and diligent development of the horse and his jump in order to do it consistently and well. The ability to perform an automatic release well is totally dependent on the quality of contact, the horse's jumping form, and the horse maintaining the perfect balance between forward and vertical thrust over the fence, which is dictated by the height and type of fence and the objectively ideal takeoff distance. The correctly jumping horse supports his rider (softly closing the rider's angles as the energy is sent upward and forward in the perfect ratio) at all points in the jumping trajectory because his jumping effort is balanced from the physics/biomechanics perspective, and it is this support that allows the rider the freedom of the arm required to properly follow the forward/downward gesture of the horse's head and neck over the fence. It indicates maximum efficiency of the jumping effort. If this support from the horse's jump is lacking (especially in the case of imbalance of the forward vs. upward thrust ratio, with the forward thrust being greater), the rider has no choice but to seek the support he requires from the crest release. So the reason we see it so rarely in the hunters is not only because it has fallen out of "style" (and good riding should NEVER be subject to trends, IMHO) but because hunters are generally ridden to a significantly longer distance than the type/height of fence dictates, in order to give the horse more time to get his front end up and out of the way and achieve the high knees and "boxy" hunter front leg technique. Because they stand significantly farther out from the base, they are required to thrust harder than really is necessary to get from one side to the other, which results in that excessive forward thrust and corresponding crest release/open angles of the rider.

What I find aggravatingly ironic is that in terms of movement, hunter folks place great value on economy, seeking that long, low-to-the-ground stride with little knee or hock action. You would think the same principle would apply to jumping, but over fences the exact opposite is desired: EXTRAVAGANCE, even at the expense of efficiency. It is totally illogical, and a source of ire and vexation for my admittedly Spock-like brain. :mad: It is also a disservice to the horse, as he is consistently required to jump harder than he needs to, resulting in greater forces on his hocks and landing gear than is necessary. Add to that the silly notion of "riding the neck down" (people, the neck isn't SUPPOSED to go down on landing, the head and neck are supposed to come UP!), which impedes the horse's ability to decelerate in the air and obtain a great measure of relief from the concussive landing forces. And add to that the rider insisting on "staying off the horse's back" by remaining forward through the landing (thereby also failing to decelerate and actually increasing the horse's already excessive burden upon landing.) VOILA! You have a recipe for abuse...albeit, ignorant abuse. It's just not fair to the horse.

Seriously. Go watch videos of top modern hunters and compare to puissance horses. The hunters land harder. No wonder there's so much headshaking on the backside of fences...

Sigh.....off my soapbox. Flamesuit on.

monstrpony
Mar. 25, 2010, 09:11 AM
It's the equivalent of western pleasure the looser the rein shows how dead broke your little pony is!:lol:

Now, THERE's a sterling testament to the positive direction of the show hunter industry. :rolleyes:

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 25, 2010, 09:20 AM
It's so nice to see how many successful, top-level hunter riders we have on this board! I am QUITE impressed.

Would one of you skilled, experienced, upper level pro riders mind telling me why SO many hunters go in a standing martingale? While you're at it, can you give me an example of a hack winner?

TIA :c)

Not particularly skilled, experienced, upper level, or pro, but I can answer your questions. Standing martingales are fashionable - it's a fad. They can act as a safety devise in a bad situation and keep you from getting whacked in the face, but generally they are just for looks.

As for a hack winner: http://www.showhunterclinic.com/index.php?v_id=319&ext=mov#menu

Rosie
Mar. 25, 2010, 10:26 AM
Ludger Fan,
Thanks for the informative and thoughtful post! Makes sense to me.
I've found it interesting that I naturally, without thinking about it - generally use an auto release when riding my jumper but "revert" to a crest release when riding a hunter. Being the average ammie rider, I don't spend a bunch of time internally debating which release to use as there's a whole bunch of other stuff cluttering up my little brain when I'm jumping - but have definitely noticed a difference when looking at my pictures!
I do remember a beautiful spring day last year when I was having a lesson ( on my jumper) and was riding a long approach to an oxer across the diagonal.We were on a beautiful flowing canter and three strides out I got into two point and "hunted" the jump. My horse jumped it beautifully and I "posed" over the top in my best BNR imitation :) complete with a nice crest release and "rode his neck" down - complete with a loop in the reins on the landing side.

My horse, being unaccustomed to such behavior - nearly bucked me off on the other side. :)

LudgerFan
Mar. 25, 2010, 10:47 AM
My horse, being unaccustomed to such behavior - nearly bucked me off on the other side. :)

Yeah. I imagine it probably stings like h-e-double hockey sticks.:eek:

And the talk of why so many rails being knocked down and fences being rubbed at WEF? It could be that they are over-longeing, but I posit that maybe it's a symptom of the horses simply trying to reduce the concussive forces by minimizing the height of their jumping effort.

findeight
Mar. 25, 2010, 10:47 AM
If you look at alot of the Hunter Derby videos, you'll see alot more auto release-and I really prefer following hand, better describes what and why you are doing it. See it more in the 4' divisions and in big rings, like more then 6 strides down the lines or outside courses at any height.

I have heard even GM say what is called a crest release today is NOT what he calls a crest release and, in a smallish sand ring over jumps 3' and under a rider can properly choose any of the three CORRECT crest releases-and he still teaches all 4 releases at most of his clinics stressing rider knowledge of what is required for the excercise.

There is NO defense for the neck riding and most trainers wear their vocal chords out trying to stop it. But with so many more recreational riders not in particularly good shape that don't ride enough out there...:rolleyes:.

In a perfect world, trainers would not let them go show unless they were stronger position wise so they did not have to lay on the neck. But that won't pay the mortgage.

The fact many more show today is both a good thing and a bad one as accesibilty and a dumb down encourage mediocrity. But that is not the fault of the CORRECT crest release.

Oh, mine does not wear a standing martingale.

mvp
Mar. 25, 2010, 10:52 AM
On the Hunters as Western Pleasure point: Mark my words, this is where it is going in pursuit of the all mighty buck.

The hunter ideal lends itself to this: The horse that will safely and pleasantly pack someone around after the hounds for 3 hours on a hung-over Sunday is a great animal. So is the horse who will patiently carry you around all day while riding fencelines on your cattle ranch. Nothing wrong with the ideals, however bastardized in the show ring.

But we are running out of people with the money and dedication to ride at the top, so we are opening the floodgates to all. The 2'6"-er is out in full force, displaying the crest release offered to a horse who doesn't need one over a speed bump. Show managers are welcoming them with open arms, as are breeders and sellers happy to have a market for horses who can't do more intense jobs. I suspect trainers would like to do more, but they're just happy to make a living.

But I do like this aspect of the WesternWorld: They get their sumbitches BROKE. Bro-hoke, my friends, under saddle, in the horse trailer, on the ground, anywhere, anytime.

LudgerFan makes a point about cantering vs. jumping vs. landing. What we want(ed) was a comfortable ground-covering stride-- that's where you get the flat movement. But what we want at the base of the fence, it turns out, is a horse ready and waiting with an engaged hind end. Hunter peeps traditionally don't do the dressage necessary to make this. They try to buy an athlete and just hope. I think hunters land so hard because they never had the core strength to stay off the front end in the first place.

Better landings (and all the rest) can be made to an extent. But apparently, that's (mere dressage) is a big secret usually known to trainers at the top. Of course these guys start with capable athletes to begin with, leaving the rest of us wondering what happened.

On the martingale point. I don't know why these were ever legal-- if you must have your hunter's head physically tied down why would you want to ride it? Most foxhunters consider these a little dangerous. If the horse needs to use his head and neck in an extreme way to save your bacon, he's SOL. I suspect they were a concession to the original hotter TBs shown over bigger courses at a faster pace. The loopy martingale, however will make the short and stocky-necked horse appear longer and thinner in that area.

In the git-er-done branches of the western world, martingales are called tie-downs. In roping (as in hard-landing or young hunters), it does have somewhat helpful purpose. It allows the horse to use his head and neck to essentially pull his hind end up underneath him for a moment. Think about a roper stopping hard against a cow or a horse raising his head and neck to keep from falling on his face and I the biomechanics will be clear.

In barrel racing? Well, y'all are on your own in that "sport." I don't know how to justify any element of it.

LudgerFan
Mar. 25, 2010, 11:08 AM
Even the most amazingly talented and capable equine athlete will be reduced to the standard of its rider's equitation. To paraphrase Charles de Kunffy in (IMHO) the best book of all time dealing with equestrian ethics: "We live in the age of the superhorse that tolerates the minimal rider." (The Ethics and Passions of Dressage, p 22.) Read it, people, whatever discipline you happen to ride.

If we truly love the horses, we must be merciless in our pursuit of personal excellence. Otherwise, the horses suffer as they so generously act as our vehicles of self-promotion.

magnolia73
Mar. 25, 2010, 11:31 AM
Hunters are judged on the horse, not the rider. It obviously is working for the rider to not use an auto release in getting what the rider needs to get out of the horse.

If you look at how jumpers and eventers go- its not in the style of a hunter and the riders ride differently- generally with much more contact and for lack of a better word- an aim for a tighter distance and a more readily adaptable stride. IE- the very competent jumper rider at my barn is giving significant half halts to get to the base of his jump. He is visibly setting his horse on her hind end. He does need the control of an auto release.

Meanwhile, you just don't want your hunter to look that complicated to ride. And they typically are not and your course is simpler, so you don't need an auto release.

findeight
Mar. 25, 2010, 11:52 AM
Jeesh, I keep trying to bring up the quote box and all I get is reply format. Or it just won't load.

Heavy traffic and some good discussion I guess, been awhile since there was this much action.

Anyway, great quote and remarks there Ludger. And that falls squarely on the trainer to develop in their client. Mainly by continuing to seek their own advancement as a rider by taking a clinic or a lesson-and letting their clients sit in. And teach them to LEARN by watching and listening to everybody, good bad and no business even riding let alone training. That is how you learn, by watching and listening. Like you are always either training or untraining that horse from the instant you step in that stall, a rider should always be gaining knowledge.

I was just amazed to learn a not too far off trainer in the next city west of here refuses to "let" clients clinic or take a lesson from anybody else except them. Something clients are not told until they want do attend a clinic with GM, Jeff Cook or Frank Madden who are usually in the area (or within a half day's drive) annually. I'd go anyway...and not come back.

That's a trainer who has let themselves stagnate and wants clients to do the same...I guess so they stay with them? Doesn't work if that's why.

naters
Mar. 25, 2010, 12:03 PM
The loopy martingale, however will make the short and stocky-necked horse appear longer and thinner in that area.




Um..... damn..... never needed a martingale or wanted one until I read that sentence, now I do!! :lol:

doublesstable
Mar. 25, 2010, 12:09 PM
DMK and Orange have it right, plus hunters get ridden by all sorts of incompetent people.

In this scenario, GM and others felt it best to teach us incompetents the crest release. It was a damage control thing.

Then it became a common look, in part because it helped get noobs into the show ring that much faster. And there they were-- in the ring, in photos, in lessons and clinics-- establishing an aesthetic standard in a very rigid sport.

Back to damage control and the ideal hunter-- that horse should jump beautifully for anyone. But your average horse with you average rider is more likely to jump better if he trusts that you'll let go of his face every time.

At some point (and I secretly like this) it became cool to float the reins a few strides out when you saw your distance.

I think this trend developed after the WB invasion and the canter got so long and slow. Riders had the time to see a distance and adjust with their body, allowing the horse to use his front end just as well as he possibly could.

Some day, I'll have one so broke that I do the whole course this way-- all off my eye and shoulder a few degrees forward or more upright.


Another winner... ding ding...

I should be riding with an auto but years of being taught the crest release.. It's a hard habit to break.. I REALLY dislike my crest release... I have been riding tooooo long to keep doing this... one should advance... BUT

You really need to be a balanced rider where your hands are independent of your body to be able to offer a nice auto release. And that says why most people do a crest release.

Watch the Mclays.... they NEED TO DO AN AUTO- Watch their elbows stick out over the jump because they are leaning on the crest with their hands = crest release... expecially the work with out irons... watch it. I know it's not Hunters... heres a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkMlBjewV_w

Rosie
Mar. 25, 2010, 12:13 PM
LudgerFan,
I think my horse was reacting to the (unexpectedly) loopy rein, my two point body position and the more "gap-py" distance (as well as the beautiful weather) we took to the fence more than any pain caused by me leaning my hands on his neck as he landed.
I'm 5'5"/120Lbs. He's 17. 3 and a powerfully built guy.

While I totally understand and agree that the rider's body position affects the horse - I think I'll disagree that hunters are tossing their heads or otherwise exhibiting pain caused by riders landing with their hands on their necks. Or am I misunderstanding your comments?

mvp
Mar. 25, 2010, 12:26 PM
The big trick is to separate hand from body. You should be able to float the reins and then decide how forward or back you'd like your shoulders to be, how close to the saddle you put your tush and how you'll use your leg-- driving or relaxed, thigh only or lower leg, too.

I can't tell you how many times I'd take a long approach to a single fence, float the reins out of the turn and then say to myself "You will not pick these up until you have used your body first. Shoulders first, then half halt while the front end is landing in that phase of the canter. Then let go, ask if your horse has come back any and see where you are."

It takes lots of mental discipline to do this, but it rocks when you get it right. Horses dig it. They will get better and better around a course if you give them a chance with the body first, hands second ride. It also means that where you put your hands over the top of the fence is immaterial, and you will have a better odds of changing their placement with a horse who didn't need a hand ride to get to the fence in the first place.

doublesstable
Mar. 25, 2010, 12:38 PM
The big trick is to separate hand from body. You should be able to float the reins and then decide how forward or back you'd like your shoulders to be, how close to the saddle you put your tush and how you'll use your leg-- driving or relaxed, thigh only or lower leg, too.

I can't tell you how many times I'd take a long approach to a single fence, float the reins out of the turn and then say to myself "You will not pick these up until you have used your body first. Shoulders first, then half halt while the front end is landing in that phase of the canter. Then let go, ask if your horse has come back any and see where you are."

It takes lots of mental discipline to do this, but it rocks when you get it right. Horses dig it. They will get better and better around a course if you give them a chance with the body first, hands second ride. It also means that where you put your hands over the top of the fence is immaterial, and you will have a better odds of changing their placement with a horse who didn't need a hand ride to get to the fence in the first place.

It seems like every post you write I agree 100%!

I have a particular horse I call my tattle-tale... if I do it wrong; he tells on me. He was trained dressage and I have never ridden a horse so responsive to the rider... EVER.

Now that I am doing things as you wrote above.. WOW what a difference in my ride; expecially with this particular horse.... The feeling is amazing (it does rock) when you get it.

Now I am looking for consistency.. I want it all the time!!! It's like opening a bag of Lays potato chips.... the need to eat them all... :lol:

(sorry to hijack) :o

nlk
Mar. 25, 2010, 12:44 PM
Now, THERE's a sterling testament to the positive direction of the show hunter industry. :rolleyes:

I know:lol: it's the best way to describe it to people wanting to know the difference between jumpers and hunters. While many may not agree with common Western Pleasure practices the goal is still the same. You want the judge to feel like he could hop on you horse and have the most pleasing ride ever.

that doesn't mean it hasn't been bastardized but the concept and the principle are still the same. In one you want to go loping across your field to get some work done or a quiet trail ride with out fighting your horse and the other any gentleman (or woman) could hop on your horse and go for a nice jaunt around the country side or partake in a hunt with out the stress of a horse fighting you the whole way!

LudgerFan
Mar. 25, 2010, 12:44 PM
LudgerFan,
I think my horse was reacting to the (unexpectedly) loopy rein, my two point body position and the more "gap-py" distance (as well as the beautiful weather) we took to the fence more than any pain caused by me leaning my hands on his neck as he landed.
I'm 5'5"/120Lbs. He's 17. 3 and a powerfully built guy.

While I totally understand and agree that the rider's body position affects the horse - I think I'll disagree that hunters are tossing their heads or otherwise exhibiting pain caused by riders landing with their hands on their necks. Or am I misunderstanding your comments?

Again, go watch videos of many of the top modern hunters and compare the landings with those of puissance horses jumping 7'.....there's seriously more of a compensatory gesture of the head and neck the first stride after landing in the HUNTERS than there is in even a puissance horse. I'm convinced its a combination of the "riding the neck down" with the longer hunter distance, which combine to seriously overburden the horse's forehand on landing. Watch the expression of the ears and eyes.

DMK
Mar. 25, 2010, 01:51 PM
Hmmm, I guess if you don't take the time and effort to train your horse to carry himself up to, over and away from a relatively small fence (all things considered) without any particular direct guidance from the pilot, other than "we are going that way, please to be jumping anything that gets in your way" then indeed some support from the auto would be welcome by the horse.

Me, I'd like to address the root cause of that issue rather than rely on a rider fix to handle it day in and day out. But I'm kind of a Littauer fan in that area, so I think I can safely be called old-fashioned. While I'd like to think of myself marginally more effective a rider than a howler monkey, I'd still like my horse to shine on my finer howler monkey moments. :D

tidy rabbit
Mar. 25, 2010, 01:56 PM
I was just amazed to learn a not too far off trainer in the next city west of here refuses to "let" clients clinic or take a lesson from anybody else except them. Something clients are not told until they want do attend a clinic with GM, Jeff Cook or Frank Madden who are usually in the area (or within a half day's drive) annually. I'd go anyway...and not come back.

That's a trainer who has let themselves stagnate and wants clients to do the same...I guess so they stay with them? Doesn't work if that's why.

OH, you must PM me the details of this!

RugBug
Mar. 25, 2010, 02:09 PM
Hmmm, I guess if you don't take the time and effort to train your horse to carry himself up to, over and away from a relatively small fence (all things considered) without any particular direct guidance from the pilot, other than "we are going that way, please to be jumping anything that gets in your way" then indeed some support from the auto would be welcome by the horse.

Me, I'd like to address the root cause of that issue rather than rely on a rider fix to handle it day in and day out. But I'm kind of a Littauer fan in that area, so I think I can safely be called old-fashioned. While I'd like to think of myself marginally more effective a rider than a howler monkey, I'd still like my horse to shine on my finer howler monkey moments. :D

:yes: :yes:

mvp
Mar. 25, 2010, 02:59 PM
Continuing the How To hijack

doublesstable has let the rest of us in on at least part of the (deservedly) BNT's secret. Those guys get their horses so broke on the flat-- always with an eye to making the bridle "extra"-- that by the time they introduce work over fences, they already have a way to rate their horses that doesn't interfere with the physical or mental effort of jumps in the way.

The other secret is that those guys are damned accurate. This is in two senses-- they can pick the same distance over and over, teaching the horse what to aim for. They get this done out of a minimalist, non-distracting ride that lets the horse negotiate with the poles and jumps apparently all by himself. They are also accurate in the sense that they can pick exactly the right "lick" or pace for the job at hand, over and over.

They key, then, with your reasonably broke horse cantering slowly over low fences is to use that "I won't pick up my hand" mantra, but also be willing to leave the ground at whatever distance you get. If you canter around to a single fence a few times, you horse learns that you won't make a big move, but you also won't help him. He'll start thinking. A the same time, you'll also learn the rhythm of the lick that works.

On the rest of your very large circle, away from the fence, you practice asking him to stretch out a bit (no faster, just longer) or come back a bit with your shoulder alone. Accept very, very small changes.

Then, with that "pre-flight check" of your aids in hand, you turn to the fence. You'll think about nothing but counting strides slowly under your breath and that will help you feel a rhythm rather than look for a distance. Out of this, coordinating what you see with what you feel, you'll know when to adjust with your body. Your horse, properly tuned up, will answer accordingly.

I think that during this part of the curriculum, these hella-accurate BNTs do everything in slow motion-- they canter slowly, jump little, look for the smallest aid they can use in any given moment. But that's also because they try to gather lots of information by feel. They feel balance, speed, rhythm and distance from the fence.

I suspect they look for distances differently from the rest of us. They don't focus on the base or the top of the back rail or whatever because that creates a tractor-beam effect. Instead, they cruise along looking at the fence but with the kind of vision that's *not* about measuring a closing space. For lack of better term, their eyes are soft or glazed over-- they know they'll leave the ground whereever (and at a generally good enough distance) when they get there; no need for the intent stare.

I think the horse feels something different underneath this ride. He might take up the responsibility of measuring distance himself, but does that in a relaxed way because he knows he doesn't also have to negotiate with a rider who's going to arm-chair quarterback it and possibly make a bad decision.

Lucassb
Mar. 25, 2010, 03:13 PM
Hmmm, I guess if you don't take the time and effort to train your horse to carry himself up to, over and away from a relatively small fence (all things considered) without any particular direct guidance from the pilot, other than "we are going that way, please to be jumping anything that gets in your way" then indeed some support from the auto would be welcome by the horse.

Me, I'd like to address the root cause of that issue rather than rely on a rider fix to handle it day in and day out. But I'm kind of a Littauer fan in that area, so I think I can safely be called old-fashioned. While I'd like to think of myself marginally more effective a rider than a howler monkey, I'd still like my horse to shine on my finer howler monkey moments. :D

<laughing> Ohhhhhh, I think you've nailed it, DMK. Couldn't have put it better myself. One of the reasons I bought my current horse was his ability to soldier on despite my howler monkey moments. ;)

Interestingly enough the topic of auto releases came up recently at a clinic I audited where McLain Ward was teaching. I have always loved his style over fences and expected him to laud the auto release as the pinnacle of accomplishment, being classically correct etc.

His comment was that - gasp - the auto release was over rated. I was surprised, particularly since the riders in the clinic were all very accomplished junior and A/O jumper riders, not beginners by any means.

He went on to explain that he considered it over rated not because it was incorrect, obviously, because the top riders can and do use it a lot, and for good reason. But his opinion is that it simply takes a lot more core strength, control and feel than most riders can get riding one horse a day, even with good instruction, and thus most riders are better served by doing a *proper* crest release. He was careful to explain that that was NOT part of a big hunter duck, BTW, just that the rider gained a bit of stability and support from the neck while providing the horse with adequate freedom to make a good jumping effort.

doublesstable
Mar. 25, 2010, 03:18 PM
Continuing the How To hijack

I suspect they look for distances differently from the rest of us. They don't focus on the base or the top of the back rail or whatever because that creates a tractor-beam effect. Instead, they cruise along looking at the fence but with the kind of vision that's *not* about measuring a closing space. For lack of better term, their eyes are soft or glazed over-- they know they'll leave the ground whereever (and at a generally good enough distance) when they get there; no need for the intent stare.

I think the horse feels something different underneath this ride. He might take up the responsibility of measuring distance himself, but does that in a relaxed way because he knows he doesn't also have to negotiate with a rider who's going to arm-chair quarterback it and possibly make a bad decision.

I have been taught recenlty by really amazing H/J rider to use "Peripheral vision" to see your fence. And amazingly it works so well....

Look beyond the jump as you approach and you can still see it without actually looking at it... does this make sense???

Recently I have spent a lot of time at some big barns (both Hunter/Jumpers and Dressage) and worked at becoming part of the landscape... what a learning expereince.....

Too bad I figured this out at my age!
:lol::D

tidy rabbit
Mar. 25, 2010, 03:22 PM
A simple thing about distances....

1) If, at 2 strides away I can look to my next jump automatically I know I don't have to change a thing.

2) If, at 2 strides away I'm looking at my jump and know it's going to be long, I close my leg and take up the difference.

3) If, at 2 strides away it feels slow, I just shift a bit and help my horse shorten his stride, really it's just supporting him.

I can ride the same distance a thousand times with this technique. The trick is to *understand* how MY eye works and knowing which of the 3 responses is appropriate.

more simplistically,

Long = push
short = steady

Lucassb
Mar. 25, 2010, 03:29 PM
Continuing the How To hijack

doublesstable has let the rest of us in on at least part of the (deservedly) BNT's secret. Those guys get their horses so broke on the flat-- always with an eye to making the bridle "extra"-- that by the time they introduce work over fences, they already have a way to rate their horses that doesn't interfere with the physical or mental effort of jumps in the way.

The other secret is that those guys are damned accurate. This is in two senses-- they can pick the same distance over and over, teaching the horse what to aim for. They get this done out of a minimalist, non-distracting ride that lets the horse negotiate with the poles and jumps apparently all by himself. They are also accurate in the sense that they can pick exactly the right "lick" or pace for the job at hand, over and over.

They key, then, with your reasonably broke horse cantering slowly over low fences is to use that "I won't pick up my hand" mantra, but also be willing to leave the ground at whatever distance you get. If you canter around to a single fence a few times, you horse learns that you won't make a big move, but you also won't help him. He'll start thinking. A the same time, you'll also learn the rhythm of the lick that works.

On the rest of your very large circle, away from the fence, you practice asking him to stretch out a bit (no faster, just longer) or come back a bit with your shoulder alone. Accept very, very small changes.

Then, with that "pre-flight check" of your aids in hand, you turn to the fence. You'll think about nothing but counting strides slowly under your breath and that will help you feel a rhythm rather than look for a distance. Out of this, coordinating what you see with what you feel, you'll know when to adjust with your body. Your horse, properly tuned up, will answer accordingly.

I think that during this part of the curriculum, these hella-accurate BNTs do everything in slow motion-- they canter slowly, jump little, look for the smallest aid they can use in any given moment. But that's also because they try to gather lots of information by feel. They feel balance, speed, rhythm and distance from the fence.

I suspect they look for distances differently from the rest of us. They don't focus on the base or the top of the back rail or whatever because that creates a tractor-beam effect. Instead, they cruise along looking at the fence but with the kind of vision that's *not* about measuring a closing space. For lack of better term, their eyes are soft or glazed over-- they know they'll leave the ground whereever (and at a generally good enough distance) when they get there; no need for the intent stare.

I think the horse feels something different underneath this ride. He might take up the responsibility of measuring distance himself, but does that in a relaxed way because he knows he doesn't also have to negotiate with a rider who's going to arm-chair quarterback it and possibly make a bad decision.

Exactly right.

magnolia73
Mar. 25, 2010, 04:01 PM
MVP- that was great description. That is how my trainer rides my horse who then lopes along like it ain't no thing. Then I get on and "ride" and make "adjustments" and end up with a pissed off horse. It's that doing nothing and making the small adjustments when you need them very quietly that is SO DAMN HARD. It's much easier to sit up, big half halt, big halfhalt, set up get to the base than it is to turn, scoot shoulders back, wait, quiet supportive leg.

mvp
Mar. 25, 2010, 04:25 PM
The thing you *can't* do is discipline yourself to not touch your horse's face for a while and then wuss out and grab two strides out. You just can't.

You can't because that means that 1) the flat work ride you gave him doesn't apply when jumping and 2) he *should* worry and think about ignoring you when a fence gets close. What is the horse supposed to think except that a jump means "every man for himself"?

This is why BNTs will also to plenty over single poles on the ground. Whether it's that the horse gets "unbroke" while jumping or the rider just can't help herself and must make big moves, the solution is to take jumping out of the equation but still keep the obligation to get to *some* obstacle that's fixed in space.

doublesstable
Mar. 25, 2010, 04:28 PM
They also USE THE CORNERS. GO DEEP around the arena using every square inch of that arena... get yourself set up WAY before you even jump the jump......

Take all day if you want.... I know this is not about the auto release but seems we have steered in this direction..

Good stuff however!

Shrunk "N" Da Wash
Mar. 25, 2010, 04:31 PM
It's because you're supposed to ride the hunters with your hands in your lap so when you get to the jump you can make a big dramatic move and throw your hands up the horses neck and have all that floppy excess rein show off your horse's jump. Right? :lol:

It's a good way to show off your bum in your $500 breeches :yes:

As for standings they scare the snot out of me. I have seen a horses rip their chest open severely when the horse stumbled over a fence, had no head to re-balance them, then the buckle sliced them open. I think if a horse needs their head up they need their head up!!!! Loose runnings are my preference they don't allow the horse to invert but still allow plenty of freedom of the head and neck. Even draw reins for training are more preferential to runnings :)

doublesstable
Mar. 25, 2010, 04:33 PM
The thing you *can't* do is discipline yourself to not touch your horse's face for a while and then wuss out and grab two strides out. You just can't.

You can't because that means that 1) the flat work ride you gave him doesn't apply when jumping and 2) he *should* worry and think about ignoring you when a fence gets close. What is the horse supposed to think except that a jump means "every man for himself"?

This is why BNTs will also to plenty over single poles on the ground. Whether it's that the horse gets "unbroke" while jumping or the rider just can't help herself and must make big moves, the solution is to take jumping out of the equation but still keep the obligation to get to *some* obstacle that's fixed in space.


Okay I'm rolling now:lol: The ground pole thing.... My recent trainer has me course over poles so I sit still.... telling me - "it's just a pole on the ground"... And you guessed it; I spent many riding days OVER POLES... :lol:


or as I am coming into a gymnastic..... he starts asking me how my weekend was.... he tells me I think too much......

again not directly about the release but I think without all this then you cannot use an auto release. Or at least a soft, feeling, following hand...... this makes our horses happy.

DMK
Mar. 25, 2010, 04:55 PM
They also USE THE CORNERS. GO DEEP around the arena using every square inch of that arena... get yourself set up WAY before you even jump the jump......

Take all day if you want.... I know this is not about the auto release but seems we have steered in this direction..

Good stuff however!

Our much missed Kennett Square used to tell her pony riders; "It's your ring honey, use all of it ... your parents paid for for the ends too..." :lol:

I think about that almost every time I start my courtesy circle. ;)

RugBug
Mar. 25, 2010, 05:10 PM
Our much missed Kennett Square used to tell her pony riders; "It's your ring honey, use all of it ... your parents paid for for the ends too..." :lol:



Oh my. That's wonderful. KS had some wonderful sayings.

I'll have to use that in my mental prep from now on.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Mar. 25, 2010, 08:24 PM
Not particularly skilled, experienced, upper level, or pro, but I can answer your questions. Standing martingales are fashionable - it's a fad. They can act as a safety devise in a bad situation and keep you from getting whacked in the face, but generally they are just for looks.

As for a hack winner: http://www.showhunterclinic.com/index.php?v_id=319&ext=mov#menu

Haha, sorry, I was being facetious. I just think it's funny that so many people seem to form an opinion on things about which they simply aren't educated. Constant complaints about "trends" (heaven forbid a rider/trainer actually develop a NEW, useful tool or method). Honestly, I think it's sad that people don't see that the hunter ring has developed in a different direction than 30 years ago. Or they see it, and don't like it, so they constantly complain about how "hideous" a release is. Most of the people they're referring to are pros at the top of our sport- pros bringing in the results their clients are looking for.

And we've all seen Scott Stewart's horse. He is lovely, but I'm afraid he might just add fuel to the fire :c). He'd have a home in my barn any day, though.

SaturdayNightLive
Mar. 25, 2010, 08:41 PM
Haha, sorry, I was being facetious. I just think it's funny that so many people seem to form an opinion on things about which they simply aren't educated. Constant complaints about "trends" (heaven forbid a rider/trainer actually develop a NEW, useful tool or method). Honestly, I think it's sad that people don't see that the hunter ring has developed in a different direction than 30 years ago. Or they see it, and don't like it, so they constantly complain about how "hideous" a release is. Most of the people they're referring to are pros at the top of our sport- pros bringing in the results their clients are looking for.

And we've all seen Scott Stewart's horse. He is lovely, but I'm afraid he might just add fuel to the fire :c). He'd have a home in my barn any day, though.

:lol: I wasn't sure whether you were kidding or not, but I always enjoy a chance to watch Crown Point go. ;)

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Mar. 25, 2010, 08:48 PM
And, while I'm at it, I find that it's perfectly acceptable to use whatever release you'd like in the modern hunter ring. No one is stopping any of you from using an auto release. No one's really stopping you from doing much of anything in the hunter ring. The fact of the matter is, the judge is rewarding what is currently producing the best results for our sport. It's your choice to show using whatever methods you see fit. If the auto release complimented the modern hunter's style of jumping, I'm sure you'd see it more often. I'm SURE of this.

Fun Size
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:07 AM
The big trick is to separate hand from body. You should be able to float the reins and then decide how forward or back you'd like your shoulders to be, how close to the saddle you put your tush and how you'll use your leg-- driving or relaxed, thigh only or lower leg, too.

I can't tell you how many times I'd take a long approach to a single fence, float the reins out of the turn and then say to myself "You will not pick these up until you have used your body first. Shoulders first, then half halt while the front end is landing in that phase of the canter. Then let go, ask if your horse has come back any and see where you are."

It takes lots of mental discipline to do this, but it rocks when you get it right. Horses dig it. They will get better and better around a course if you give them a chance with the body first, hands second ride. It also means that where you put your hands over the top of the fence is immaterial, and you will have a better odds of changing their placement with a horse who didn't need a hand ride to get to the fence in the first place.

I LOVE this sentiment! You put in words the feeling I have been trying to get for about the past 10 days. My horse is about 100 times more experienced than I; if I go to the rein first before the leg, he gets absolutely pissed and very possible will let me know by speeding up and/or getting stressed out. I'm writing this down! :D

imapepper
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:33 AM
Neither release is more or less "correct"- they are different and have different uses. Since hunter is judging the horse, use whatever you need to for the individual horse and individual situation. I would like to see more of it in the Eq ring- a nice auto release looks great but a lot of times that level of finesse is not needed as much with today's courses and horses

What hntrjuprpro said. Use the release that works best on your horse and the given situation.

tidy rabbit
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:54 AM
What hntrjuprpro said. Use the release that works best on your horse and the given situation.


Come now! You can't get all logical like THAT on a thread like THIS.

LH
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:04 PM
In the hunter ring, you will see the truly talented riders on the athletically gifted horses do what ever they can to get out of their horse's way to let the horse jump the jump - that usually means a crest release with a soft rein and a quiet upper body. I am not referring to the exaggerated upper body thrusting you see on some pros - if you watch some of the top ones (Louise, Peter, etc.) they are pretty quiet in the tack with quiet hands and aids.

That is a good use of the crest release. If a hunter rider needs to use an Auto Release to maintain contact and control of the horse, it may appear to a judge that the rider is either 1) manufacturing the jumping style, or 2) not eager to let go of the horse's face for some reason. THAT is why you don't see a liberal use of the auto release in the hunter ring, whether from pros or ammys.

For a horse that is not as natural of an athlete, the rider may need to "manufacture" the jump, rhythym, etc. by maintaining contact -- I know this well because my former A/O horse that won a LOT was not a natural at some distances, so we manufactured the jump to create the picture. My current young horse I let go of her face/contact before every jump because she jumps better when I just get out of her way!!!

Trixie
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:26 PM
Our much missed Kennett Square used to tell her pony riders; "It's your ring honey, use all of it ... your parents paid for for the ends too..."

"FEI rules state there shall be no livestock on course."

"Talk to me, precious pumpkin..."

We all miss Babs :sadsmile:

gottagrey
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:31 PM
I love the look of the auto release...hate the butt in the air, over-exaggerated hands above the crest thing that is the rage in the hunters these days

totally agree w/ you - hate the preying mantis look...
could also be that shows seem to filling up w/ the lower level classes/divisions -(under 3') particularly at the local level of showing..which around here at local shows you're lucky if anyone competes above 2'9" so they just keeping adding 2' classes to make $$...

Trixie
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:33 PM
could also be that shows seem to filling up w/ the lower level classes/divisions -(under 3') particularly at the local level of showing..which around here at local shows you're lucky if anyone competes above 2'9" so they just keeping adding 2' classes to make $$...

I really dislike this phenomenon. Some of our local shows have been awesome about offering a 3'6" option, which I jump on, and it's rare that anyone else will enter with me. We're now planning to attend a totally unrated show series that's upcoming because there's a 3'6" open hunters option in one of the divisions. Otherwise, we wind up doing the jumpers, which does fill. But it's dreadfully frustrating to wait at a horse show for 12 hours through 2'6" after 2'6" class to go and discovering that your class doesn't fill.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:51 PM
totally agree w/ you - hate the preying mantis look...
could also be that shows seem to filling up w/ the lower level classes/divisions -(under 3') particularly at the local level of showing..which around here at local shows you're lucky if anyone competes above 2'9" so they just keeping adding 2' classes to make $$...

So then why are we seeing so few (if any) auto releases in the 4' rings?

tidy rabbit
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:00 PM
deleted because i can't read for content and my reply made not much sense.

mvp
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:17 PM
To the extent that jumping form is manufactured at all, that's actually done without diddly in the way of hands.

The point behind the auto-release was maintaining the ability to control the direction and straightness of your horse at all points on a bad-a$$ jumper course (or perhaps the hunt field), even over the top of a fence.

Other than keeping a beast straight, I don't think anything you can do with your hands in the air will change the shape of his bascule or perfect the front end.

Whatever is done to "make" a particular jump ends when the hind end touches the ground to jump-- at the very latest. However you "lay" or don't, "pray" or don't, I suspect the rider doesn't significantly shape the arc.

Behind that, it's about picking the right pace and distance.

Behind that, it's about getting beastlng broke. superbroke. westernbrokeinthefacebutinasaffle broke.

And for the manufactured front end and arch you get, behind all this is carefully planned gymnastics. This is the best chance you have to reform the style the horse brings to the table, and to install a particular way of jumping as the one he'll use most often. BNTs are good at this.

Below that, it's between God, breeder and horse prospector with a good eye.

RockinHorse
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:23 PM
To the extent that jumping form is manufactured at all, that's actually done without diddly in the way of hands.

The point behind the auto-release was maintaining the ability to control the direction and straightness of your horse at all points on a bad-a$$ jumper course (or perhaps the hunt field), even over the top of a fence.

Other than keeping a beast straight, I don't think anything you can do with your hands in the air will change the shape of his bascule or perfect the front end.

Whatever is done to "make" a particular jump ends when the hind end touches the ground to jump-- at the very latest. However you "lay" or don't, "pray" or don't, I suspect the rider doesn't significantly shape the arc.

Behind that, it's about picking the right pace and distance.

Behind that, it's about getting beastlng broke. superbroke. westernbrokeinthefacebutinasaffle broke.

And for the manufactured front end and arch you get, behind all this is carefully planned gymnastics. This is the best chance you have to reform the style the horse brings to the table, and to install a particular way of jumping as the one he'll use most often. BNTs are good at this.

Below that, it's between God, breeder and horse prospector with a good eye.

I learned to ride in the days of the automatic release and still use it from time to time when I want to maintain contact during the jump for whatever reason. As far as I can recall, on the hunter courses of today, I really have not had any reason to use it.

I have never used the automatic release to keep a horse straight.

RugBug
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:23 PM
To the extent that jumping form is manufactured at all, that's actually done without diddly in the way of hands.

Other than keeping a beast straight, I don't think anything you can do with your hands in the air will change the shape of his bascule or perfect the front end.
.

Yes...but A LOT can be done to deteriorate a jump with the hands. So, for a huge % of the population, a crest release is going to be a better option.

RomeosGirl
Mar. 26, 2010, 05:23 PM
Holy Auto Release Batman - link to this horse was posted on another thread & when I clicked on this jumping pic.... WOW:yes:

http://virginiaequestrian.com/main.cfm?action=Classifieds&sub=largeImage&ListingID=53978&PhotoID=92039

supershorty628
Mar. 26, 2010, 06:19 PM
^Given that she has no contact with the horse's mouth whatsoever and the fact that her hand is almost on his chest, I don't think that is a true automatic release.

RugBug
Mar. 26, 2010, 06:44 PM
Holy Auto Release Batman - link to this horse was posted on another thread & when I clicked on this jumping pic.... WOW:yes:

http://virginiaequestrian.com/main.cfm?action=Classifieds&sub=largeImage&ListingID=53978&PhotoID=92039

Not an auto release. That's the holy hell hug release. :lol:

Maybe she was trying to grab the horse's legs to help her lift them up better.

SkipChange
Mar. 26, 2010, 06:48 PM
Not an auto release. That's the holy hell hug release. :lol:

Maybe she was trying to grab the horse's legs to help her lift them up better.

:lol::lol::lol::eek::lol::lol::lol:

An auto-release gone horribly wrong. My, my.........

....perhaps people go for the crest release because when you mess that up (that sterotypical, contorted, exaggerated crest release), it still looks way better than when you mess up an auto like that picture!

DMK
Mar. 26, 2010, 08:15 PM
Hmmm, if we are going to throw the crest release out because of people doing it badly ... then fair is only fair ... If we see bad auto releases, then we must toss the auto out as well? I wonder what release we will be left with? Will we have to go OLD SCHOOL?!?!?! (hey, everything old is new again, right?)

http://www.oldprints.co.uk/prints/modprints/sports/94786.jpg

Yup the thread has gone full circle

http://www.pgannon.com/images/art_main/bathwater_main.jpg

Alterrain
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:08 PM
why are we STILL arguing. It's HUNTERS. It is judged on the HORSE. If he jumps better in a standing martingale, rubber full cheek with an auto, do it. If he jumps better in no martingale, tack noseband with a corkscrew D and a exxagerated crest, DO IT. If it is a sh**ty jumper regardless, do whatever you want. But no, an auto release is not penalized. A bad jumping, ugly, crazy, bad mover is.

:)

flyracing
Mar. 27, 2010, 02:48 AM
why are we STILL arguing. It's HUNTERS. It is judged on the HORSE. If he jumps better in a standing martingale, rubber full cheek with an auto, do it. If he jumps better in no martingale, tack noseband with a corkscrew D and a exxagerated crest, DO IT. If it is a sh**ty jumper regardless, do whatever you want. But no, an auto release is not penalized. A bad jumping, ugly, crazy, bad mover is.

:)

We're not arguing. I think this thread has been a good expample of discussion and some threads could learn from the example ;)

I feel the auto release allows me to have a shorter rein on a green horse that needs the security and then still give a release that encourages full use of the neck. This can be done with a crest release, but for me I get better results with the auto for some reason. Probably means I have a bad crest release ;)

Nikki^
Mar. 27, 2010, 06:46 AM
Here are a few that I love:

Greg Best and Gem Twist (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/Pro%20Riders/gregbest.jpg?t=1269685743)

This was taken back in the 1950's. Just gorgeous! (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/Pro%20Riders/france.jpg?t=1269685856)

Silk
Mar. 27, 2010, 09:45 AM
The last two picts I have seen of Ian Millar showed him using a crest release.....the cover of the Dover catalog and in the smartpak catalog.

pfdream2011
Nov. 5, 2010, 07:06 PM
because the style in hunters today is for the most part throw the hands up the neck, jump ahead, and swing back your leg. :( not everyone does though.

trina1
Nov. 5, 2010, 07:29 PM
Love that Greg Best crest release!!! Amazing...

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Nov. 6, 2010, 06:10 AM
because the style in hunters today is for the most part throw the hands up the neck, jump ahead, and swing back your leg. :( not everyone does though.
Really? Do you really think that? Lord have mercy on your trainers!

Thomas_1
Nov. 6, 2010, 07:03 AM
...hate the butt in the air, over-exaggerated hands above the crest thing that is the rage in the hunters these days

Me too!

:yes: Don't make fun but until I started going on to forums I didn't even know that "crest release" was supposed to be a technique. Neither did I know that they'd given the alternative the name of "auto release"

I seriously and truthfully thought the rider hanging up the neck with the backside sticking up was just "crap riding and poor balance"

Tamara in TN
Nov. 6, 2010, 08:04 AM
Behind that, it's about getting beastlng broke. superbroke. westernbrokeinthefacebutinasaffle broke.

.

:) well it's nice to see someone else appreciating "broke-ness" for a change !!

Tamara in TN

goeslikestink
Nov. 6, 2010, 09:36 AM
...hate the butt in the air, over-exaggerated hands above the crest thing that is the rage in the hunters these days

yeah some one agrees with me it looks blooming awful and its not natural posttion its forced look , like cramping my style type lol
one should be following the horse movement with there bodies not going like a consitina lol
but ther you go bottoms up---------- where that drink gone lol