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Auventera Two
Mar. 24, 2010, 09:47 AM
Andre is just turning into a darned nice horse. :) :cool: :D He's going great on the trail with geldings - haven't introduced mares yet. He rides at home bareback in a halter. The other day I was on him bareback and 3 turkeys flew out of the woods. He just stood there and watched them go. I haven't seen him spook once yet and he has a really great work ethic. He's getting into good shape though he has a way to go. He knows all his ground work almost to perfection and rides mostly off leg at this point.

He now self loads in the trailer, goes over tarps, water, road crossings, handles dogs and wildlife, cows, mock vet checks, and anything else you can throw at him. He's happy to lead, follow, or just get out of the way on the trail, and like his sister he's loaded with get up and go. There isn't a nervous bone in his body. He eats and drinks away from home like a super star.

I've had him a year and though I've taken it very slowly with him, I feel he has a great base in terms of training and conditioning and am so excited for the summer!

He'll breed one mare this year and he's also been a super star for learning artificial hand collecting, so that was a huge accomplishment for him too. (This is not any sort of advertisement because he is booked for one mare and that's all we're doing at this time. I want the focus to be on training.)

Just a happy update on the greatest guy I know! :D

http://www.hphoofcare.com/AndreCanterSmall.jpg

http://www.hphoofcare.com/AndreWalkFall%2009.jpg (sorry, I tried to photoshop the shavings out of his tail but clearly I'm not very talented with the program. lol)

http://www.hphoofcare.com/WinterBarebackSmall.jpg

http://www.hphoofcare.com/WinterHalter.jpg

http://www.hphoofcare.com/AndreVicOct09.jpg]

VIDEOS:

Fun with the jolly ball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etYguZjt8XA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn41ZakbkUE&feature=channel

Just going down the trail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3gQe-w1Emk&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elg1Xj9zJQg&feature=channel

prudence
Mar. 24, 2010, 10:42 AM
Thanks for the update - you and your boy look like you are having a blast. He is so beautiful! You are going to have a wonderful spring and summer.:)

KarenC
Mar. 24, 2010, 02:30 PM
A2, how tall is he? He looks a lot leggier than I remember in the first pictures you posted.

Auventera Two
Mar. 24, 2010, 03:00 PM
He's about 15.2. She told me he was 15.3 but he had very overgrown hooves ;) Maybe he's 15.2 and a 1/2 inch. I can't remember. I'd have to stick him again. He's learned to use himself better, and he's also gained about 100 lbs. But yes, he has very long legs.

This was the VERY first pic I posted of him from the day I went to look at him:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/k1.jpg

And this was the day I brought him home:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/An2.jpg


Thanks prudence, I'm enjoying him so much!

tabula rashah
Mar. 24, 2010, 03:46 PM
Wow- he looks really good!!

Nojacketrequired
Mar. 24, 2010, 03:46 PM
He'll breed one mare this year and he's also been a super star for learning artificial hand collecting, so that was a huge accomplishment for him too.

Why does a person teach a stallion who is only breeding one mare and and may never breed again, (as you state, based on his performance in the future), to "artificially hand collect"? That suggests that you are going to have such demand that you will need to ship semen?

Boggles my mind. WHY would you do that? Even at a place like I'm at, where we have 11 stallions, anyone who breeds for frozen or to the phantom is ALWAYS the same person so the stud ONLY associates THAT person with breeding that way. Trainers just wouldn't do that, as their job needs to be totally separate in the stallion's mind. Why is it so important to begin introducing artificial collection to a horse that hasn't bred naturally yet?

Have you ever bred a virgin stallion? It isn't always really successful the first time. The mare has to be patient. I hope he has enough instinct to get it done the natural way even after, whatever it is you've been teaching him.

I rarely visit this forum but was looking for some boot suggestions and came across this.

I'm really just floored by this part of the post.

If I've misunderstood, please feel free to set me straight.

NJR

Auventera Two
Mar. 24, 2010, 04:11 PM
For god sake, can I not just post a happy update on a horse without being attacked? FOR ONCE?

The horse was taught to ground collect so he could have semen evaluation to see if shipping (freezing/cooling) semen is even a possibility for him, which extenders work the best, motility, etc. We need this information for a baseline. Myself, and the repo vet I hired to train him decided to forego the dummy because she has just had very good luck with ground collecting. Some horses learn it easily and some do not. If he doesn't have to mount a dummy, I would prefer he didn't just to save wear and tear on the stifles. If we did end up having to go that route, that would be fine, but he was extremely trainable and willing to ground collect.

A "trainer" didn't have anything to do with it. She's a vet who specializes in reproduction and that is the majority of her business.

And the horse was a herd stallion that did live breeding for years before I bought him.

Nojacketrequired
Mar. 24, 2010, 04:40 PM
For god sake, can I not just post a happy update on a horse without being attacked? FOR ONCE?

That wasn't an attack, that was a straight forward questioning of your practices. From your post above, they seem very BYB at worst, downright wacky at best. It's not like I'm going to go back and research your history first.

If this guy was a herd stallion don't you already have evidence of what he throws?

If I recall correctly, didn't you say when you first got him that you had no intention of breeding him? Or am I mixing you up with some other poster? I'm sure you used to post on other boards on this forum, as I rarely come to this one.

Again, it's not an attack, and if you think it is, perhaps you might examine your own feelings as to why you feel so "attacked" all the time? This is a discussion forum, after all.

NJR

Miss J
Mar. 24, 2010, 04:48 PM
What a beautiful arab! you don't see them with substance like you used to, or they are harder to find(good quality) :) striking boy you have.....

mp
Mar. 24, 2010, 04:55 PM
He certainly is shiny. Good job.

Bank of Dad
Mar. 24, 2010, 06:00 PM
Lets not have a train wreck. It sounded aggressive to me.

Welcome back, AT, look forward to more posts. He's lovely.

Dispatcher
Mar. 25, 2010, 08:08 AM
Lets not have a train wreck. It sounded aggressive to me.

Welcome back, AT, look forward to more posts. He's lovely.


I agree. On all counts.

Lovely Arab--just like Sweets

Auventera Two
Mar. 25, 2010, 08:43 AM
NJR - it was definitely a slam against my "practices" as you call them. I don't know what "practice" you are referring to. A reproductive specialist vet training a stallion to ground collect so that a semen analysis can be done is "wacky?" I'm not looking to find out "what he throws." We need to know if his semen is of sufficient quality to cool and ship, and if so, which extenders work best. I need to know motility rate as well. He will be artificially bred so it's pretty important to get the analysis first and do the prerequisite testing and training, don't you think? I don't have any interest in live breeding for a variety of reasons. And I did not say that I have no interest in ever breeding the horse. I said I wanted to give it time and see how he develops, how trainable and rideable he is, how he goes on the trail, and so forth. He's breeding 1 mare this year. He's had a foal with her, that turned out to be a real gem, so the mare's owner would like another chance at a great baby. If he does well at endurance rides, I will advertise him for the following year, but we're a ways off from that yet. Good lord. Just lay off already.

He's a great guy in every way. He's been such a wonderful addition to the farm! :) Thanks everyone for the nice words.

Auventera Two
Mar. 25, 2010, 08:49 AM
What a beautiful arab! you don't see them with substance like you used to, or they are harder to find(good quality) :) striking boy you have.....

I've been noticing that too. Arabians with substantial bone and substance, big feet, and tall, seem to be more difficult to find. At least around here anyway. I do really like his heavier style. I trim a lot of Arabs and he probably has the most bone and substance of any of them I see. Of course many people don't like that, so it's strictly personal preference.

Huntertwo
Mar. 25, 2010, 03:17 PM
Very handsome boy....:yes:

monicabee
Mar. 25, 2010, 03:37 PM
He looks great!

If you are comfortable whipping out the camera on your second ride, that's a great sign - though I did get a bit nervous when you said "he never spooks!"

Auventera Two
Mar. 25, 2010, 04:23 PM
LOL, we were laughing at that later. Saying he never spooks seems like an open invitation for a spook doesn't it? Thankfully he hasn't yet, and it's been about 5 months since that video.

RidingAllDay
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:03 AM
He is very cute and very shiny, but I'm still confused.

Why oh why are you breeding him? He appears to have a club foot, or is that the norm for all arab's these days?

You told us when you first got him that you wouldn't breed him until he "proved" himself? Not sure what your criteria for proving himself is but has he done that yet?

Didn't you just complain in another thread about going to an auction and seeing young horses go thru for cheap cheap cheap?

Why would you put more foals on the ground? I sure hope you aren't going to breed him to your hot hot hot mare, with all the ulcers and stress problems.

What is your breeding plan, your goals?

Finally, I just have to ask, what does your husband think of the collecting practices? freaky.

Heart's Journey
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:24 AM
He's stunning! great job

Dispatcher
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:47 AM
He is very cute and very shiny, but I'm still confused.

Why oh why are you breeding him? He appears to have a club foot, or is that the norm for all arab's these days?

You told us when you first got him that you wouldn't breed him until he "proved" himself? Not sure what your criteria for proving himself is but has he done that yet?

Didn't you just complain in another thread about going to an auction and seeing young horses go thru for cheap cheap cheap?

Why would you put more foals on the ground? I sure hope you aren't going to breed him to your hot hot hot mare, with all the ulcers and stress problems.

What is your breeding plan, your goals?

Finally, I just have to ask, what does your husband think of the collecting practices? freaky.

Club foot--the norm for Arabs these days? Where did you get THAT idea???

You have asked some very odd questions here. What does the husband of anybody who breeds horses think of the collection means? Why do you care what her breeding plans are? Are you a professional and want to offer guidance? Or is there something else you are trying to do?

ChocoMare
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:53 AM
Club foot--the norm for Arabs these days? Where did you get THAT idea???

You have asked some very odd questions here. What does the husband of anybody who breeds horses think of the collection means? Why do you care what her breeding plans are? Are you a professional and want to offer guidance? Or is there something else you are trying to do?

Ditto.

Did someone appoint you, RidingAllDay, as A2's breeding police monitor? :confused: :(

Methinks this is a Nunya.... none of your (or ours, for that matter) business. ;)

AnotherRound
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:08 AM
RAD asks good questions. I too am dissapointed that A2 was so insistent when she got the horse, less than a year ago, that they would only breed him after he had performance to justify himself, to find that now without the performance to ad value to a mediocre animal she can't resist going ahead and breeding him anyway. I wonder where that went. We are all interested in her breeding plans because what she is doing is so contrary to what she has always espoused and because what she declares about these decisions changes inappropriately.

Breeding plans are serious and are every horseman's business. Breeding plans, the reasoning and the justification for what she is doing are some of the differences between a BYB and a serious, responsible breeder. Someone who is breeding for the emotional fullfillment is not being responsible. The justification for breeding this particular horse and for keeping him intact is the business of everyone A2 has spoken to about this since she got the horse on this bulletin board.

I too am very concerned about mediocre animals being bred. Just because there is a fan base here oohing and ahhhing over this horse does not make him breeding material and I and many other people consider him medocre and that breeding him in this economy with all the mediocre horses around going through sales for nothing is a poor business decision. Especially since the OP herself has been so vocal against the very thing she is promoting.

Good questions, and I'd like to hear the answers, especially the breeding plans, but I doubt she will.

Auventera Two
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:14 AM
Oh boy that was one of the most bizarre and immature posts I've seen.

The horse does not have a club foot, and NO, club feet is not any sort of "norm" for "Arabs these days." What the heck is that supposed to mean anyway? The horse had a grazing foot when he came here. His feet were unbalanced and overgrown. Proper trimming has fixed the poor hoof form he had when I first got him. But of course it will always be reported by the same handfull of stalkers that the horse is club footed, because that makes for more drama than the truth - the horse had bad hoof form that took some time to straighten out.

Which looks better, 1:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/GrazingFootBefore.jpg

Or 2:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/AndreNailed2.jpg

Husband and breeding collection process? Is this a joke? Post a thread on the breeding forum and ask that same question. Artificially collecting and breeding horses has been going on for decades all over the world.

Auventera Two
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:20 AM
AR - This is NOT an advertisement for breeding. This thread had nothing to do with breeding. The horse is breeding one mare because the woman wants a foal to keep forever. The other foal by this pair turned out so great (she still owns that filly as well) that she would like one more before her mare is too old. I never said there were any plans beyond that. There are not. The horse has been a total rock star learning the trail - riding with other horses - trailering around to do lots of different stuff. A year ago I didn't even know if he'd be sane off the farm. Now I do. He's proven that he can focus on his job and handle pretty much whatever is thrown at him, and truck on like a good boy. Water, bridges, dogs, traffic, other horses, even amish buggies. That to me looks like a good start down the path of being a respectable trail and hopefully endurance horse. He is booked to breed ONE mare, and the lady's plan is to keep the baby for herself as a riding horse. Lets not blow up the drama to epic proportions, ok?

If you think the horse is mediocre, fine. I have no problem with that. There's a LOT of mediocre stallions and mares put up on the net that people are breeding to. Even plenty of big name, top level horses have conformation faults or temperamental faults that I would not want to breed to. So drop it. This is not a breeding forum. If you want to start a thread on the breeding forum, picking the stallion apart, GO FOR IT. As far as I know, that's allowed over there. This is the trail forum. I posted an update on the horse and his TRAIL EXPERIENCE and how he's doing so far. One short sentence said he's handled ground collection training well, and it turns into a train wreck. Very mature people.

Dispatcher
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:22 AM
Asking what her husband thinks of the collection practices is a good question? Hardly.

The questions posed are NOT good questions. There was no question asked about the proposed mare, for instance.

I happen to think the horse is more than medicore in looks. He is proving himself to have a very good dispostion and to be intelligent. He also already has foals on the ground so it should be fairly easy to see what he produces. If the mare owner's intent is to produce a good riding horse, he may just be the right pick. Nothing irresponsible about that.

RidingAllDay
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:53 AM
. He is proving himself to have a very good dispostion and to be intelligent.

Really how is he proving all this? Have you "tested" the horse yourself or are you going by what Ace has to say in her posts. I sure hope it is not by what she says, as that changes day to day and tantrum to tantrum.

This is the same woman who called around and asked 4 or 5 different vets their opinions on a sick horse instead of having actual hands on treatment.

She can breed all she wants, but I don't want to hear a darn thing about anyone else's backyard breeding practices. She is and will be nothing but a BYB.

To those questioning my statement on club footed arabs :rolleyes:

It is becoming normal go over to Horseshoes and ask the farriers their opinion on that one.

Ace has much to answer for since she touts herself an expert in everything from hoofcare, ulcers, worming to metabolic issues and now breeding.

I'd like to hear WHY she feels this particular horse needs to pass on his genes. That is not an odd question.

I certainly won't hold my breath whilst waiting ;)

Dispatcher
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:59 AM
Yes , I am going on what she says. Aren't you also?

I read nothing in her posts that points to her claiming to be an expert in breeding. If she was, she wouldn't have gotten help from the professionals.

Auventera Two
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:22 AM
Thanks Dispatcher but you'll drive yourself nuts trying to reason with [the other poster]. Ugh. She will deliberately tell lies for the sake of drama. Like not getting "hands on treatment" for a mare that was sick. [edit] The vet was at my house within the hour. He administered banamine, did a transvaginal ultrasound, and monitored her vitals until she was stable. But that's not the makings of a dramatic trainwreck full of lies so why tell the truth? It's become some sort of sport for her and a few others. If I posted a note that simply said - Good morning, hope everyone has a great day - it would be turned into a trainwreck.

And [other poster] - please point out exactly where I claimed to be an expert on breeding. I must have missed that. Or hoofcare, ulcers, metabolic, etc.... I give my opinion like anybody else. Doesn't make me an expert.

Dispatcher
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:28 AM
LOL AT! I can see that-- and I think she needs a new hobby besides drama. Sheesh

mp
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:38 PM
To those questioning my statement on club footed arabs :rolleyes:

It is becoming normal go over to Horseshoes and ask the farriers their opinion on that one.

Maybe not normal, but it certainly is pretty common.

About the grazing foot. I have a mare with a slightly clubbed RF (which is the one about 90% of the time, IME). I have to keep her in shoes because it, too.

Auventera Two
Mar. 26, 2010, 02:00 PM
mp - he's fine with normal trimming and doesn't need shoeing for anything, other than I was practicing/playing with learning to glue and nail the Eponas on my crowd. From the looks of his feet, he wasn't being trimmed on a schedule at his previous home and the heels/flares had gotten out of control.

RidingAllDay
Mar. 26, 2010, 02:01 PM
Maybe not normal, but it certainly is pretty common.

About the grazing foot. I have a mare with a slightly clubbed RF (which is the one about 90% of the time, IME). I have to keep her in shoes because it, too.

MP:

You are right, I need to word it more carefully, not normal, but more common than it used to be. Arab's have always been held up as the example of good or perfect feet.

I'm seeing more and more with grazing (club) feet but not every single one. I'll drop the normal next time I discuss it :)

Huntertwo
Mar. 26, 2010, 05:53 PM
Really how is he proving all this? Have you "tested" the horse yourself or are you going by what Ace has to say in her posts. I sure hope it is not by what she says, as that changes day to day and tantrum to tantrum.

This is the same woman who called around and asked 4 or 5 different vets their opinions on a sick horse instead of having actual hands on treatment.

She can breed all she wants, but I don't want to hear a darn thing about anyone else's backyard breeding practices. She is and will be nothing but a BYB.

To those questioning my statement on club footed arabs :rolleyes:

It is becoming normal go over to Horseshoes and ask the farriers their opinion on that one.

Ace has much to answer for since she touts herself an expert in everything from hoofcare, ulcers, worming to metabolic issues and now breeding.

I'd like to hear WHY she feels this particular horse needs to pass on his genes. That is not an odd question.

I certainly won't hold my breath whilst waiting ;)

Honestly, it's none of your darn business what she does with her horse.

Admit it, you really don't care if she answers the questions as your only intent on this thread is to troll and start a train wreck. :rolleyes:

This is a nice forum, go away....and play somewhere else. Oh wait, I forgot, TLB is shut down...;)

tpup
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:34 PM
Aventura, he is absolutely lovely and what a good boy on the trail. Can I just say I LOVE LOVE videos from horseback. I could watch them all day.

I know very little about breeding but I can tell you that a horse with this kind of temperment is PRICELESS in my eyes, so breed away :) In all seriousness, not sure why all the attacks. Geesh. He's a lovely horse, and it's none of anyone else's business. It's not like you are lining up mares down the driveway or anything!

RidingAllDay
Mar. 27, 2010, 07:03 AM
Which looks better, 1:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/GrazingFootBefore.jpg

Or 2:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/AndreNailed2.jpg



Overall the foot looks improved upon but...

You must be having a joke ;) I can't tell if there is improvement to the "grazing foot" or not. Camera was not held at the same angle in both shots and one foot is shod and one is bare.

One reason we put shoes on is to improve upon the capsular distortion. So you need the foot bare and the camera in the same angle for us to give you information on whether you have "fixed" it.

So are you saying this isn't genetic and it was all man made? Are you saying you have "cured" his club foot?

hmmm interesting.

hitchinmygetalong
Mar. 27, 2010, 08:25 AM
It does not appear he is bearing weight in photo #2, which makes the pastern angle look completely different than photo #1. I have to agree with RAD - you can not compare the two and make a judgement as to which is the better foot. Sorry.

Chall
Mar. 27, 2010, 10:34 AM
The trail ride ... upset my tummy, I'm a wiener/worrier. Arabs have so much *energy* and you feel it in the video (disclaimer: I have an Arab). I watched it and was waiting for the feel good spook :lol:
He's lovely, you seem happy, he seems happy.
Enjoy.

Auventera Two
Mar. 27, 2010, 12:12 PM
RAD - it's obvious your only intent here is to trainwreck. The right front looks NOTHING like it did when the horse came here. He was so overgrown and the feet hadn't been trimmed in so long, ANY horse would have had capsular distortion, flares, long heels, overgrown bars, etc. etc. etc. Proper trimming on a correct cycle has fixed the issues (on all 4 feet) that the horse had. I'm not turning this thread into a debate on what "genetic issues" the horse has, or shoes vs. barefoot, or any other drama and trainwreck you're interested in. At this time, the horse's heel is of correct length, and all dishing and flaring in the capsule is completely GONE. He has nice wide heel bulbs and a fat frog. There is nothing about the foot that says "genetic club". The horse is trimmed every 5-6 weeks, just like all the others, and there are absolutely no problems or issues with the foot or limb. And NO SURPRISE that once the foot was finally corrected, his movement improved as well. No doubt that poor hoof form can be detrimental to everything else..

This is what happens when hooves are neglected - they develop problems or issues that need to be corrected. The horse being a stallion or possibly being used for breeding does not exempt him from this cause and effect of insufficient trimming and resultant poor hoof form. As far as I know, stallions don't possess a supernatural ability to grow and maintain perfect hooves in spite of hoof trimming neglect.

H2, tpup, Chall - thanks for the kind words :) Chall, lol yeah he's a fun ride!! Always ready to go but not spooky. Just an all around nice guy.

Auventera Two
Mar. 27, 2010, 12:20 PM
It does not appear he is bearing weight in photo #2, which makes the pastern angle look completely different than photo #1. I have to agree with RAD - you can not compare the two and make a judgement as to which is the better foot. Sorry.

I started a thread to give a very happy update on the horse's behavior and how his training was progressing. If you want to start a conformation critique of him on the breeder's forum, then rock on. People do it all the time but that wasn't the intent of this thread.

hitchinmygetalong
Mar. 27, 2010, 02:27 PM
Oh, sorry! I was just responding to your question:




Which looks better, 1:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/GrazingFootBefore.jpg

Or 2:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/AndreNailed2.jpg


Have fun with your horse. :)

webmistress32
Mar. 27, 2010, 02:36 PM
I have never been on a thread with A2 when she didn't get summarily attacked right out of the gate. just a casual observation as I don't really post much.

anyhoo ...

if you like Arabs with big bone, larger and more substance check out the Hungarian Arabs aka Shagya's. nice horses! nice Arabs!

sublimequine
Mar. 27, 2010, 06:29 PM
I have never been on a thread with A2 when she didn't get summarily attacked right out of the gate. just a casual observation as I don't really post much.

anyhoo ...

if you like Arabs with big bone, larger and more substance check out the Hungarian Arabs aka Shagya's. nice horses! nice Arabs!

There's a feral pack of morons who like to follow A2 wherever she goes and attack her with all their mindless fury.

I don't know if I agree with breeding this stallion, but ultimately it's OP's choice. And this WASN'T a "Should I breed him?" thread, it was supposed to just be a nice "Look at my pretty boy!" thread. People just can't respect that.

Auventera Two
Mar. 27, 2010, 07:39 PM
Thanks webmistress and sublime :) I appreciate the thoughts. And boy you're right, Shagyas are really really nice horses!

mp
Mar. 27, 2010, 08:05 PM
if you like Arabs with big bone, larger and more substance check out the Hungarian Arabs aka Shagya's. nice horses! nice Arabs!

Or just look for Arabians that have a good amount of bone and no club feet. They're out there. Mine happen to be from mostly Polish lines. They're good sized (~15h), well conformed, bone out the wazoo, nice-minded riding horses. There is no shortage of them. Really.

ETA -- I mentioned a mare earlier with a club foot. I bought her 12 years ago, before I knew any better. She is about the sweetest mare you'll ever meet, but I didn't breed her because of that club foot, slight though it is.

eyetallion stallion
Mar. 27, 2010, 09:41 PM
Or just look for Arabians that have a good amount of bone and no club feet. They're out there. Mine happen to be from mostly Polish lines. They're good sized (~15h), well conformed, bone out the wazoo, nice-minded riding horses. There is no shortage of them. Really.

ETA -- I mentioned a mare earlier with a club foot. I bought her 12 years ago, before I knew any better. She is about the sweetest mare you'll ever meet, but I didn't breed her because of that club foot, slight though it is.

And you made the responsible choice by not contributing to a future of flawed footed Arabs. IMHO, the OP isn't bettering the breed by breeding, even once, a stallion with crooked legs, a puffy knee AND a club foot.

OP: Your stallion is cute. Good progress on the trail rides. But he'd make a much cuter gelding. Lose the nuts, and maybe you won't be considered one for continuing to be a BYB of conformationally challenged Arabs.

Arrows Endure
Mar. 27, 2010, 10:37 PM
Ouch guys...sheesh, can't even say "yay my boys doing great" without getting clubbed upside the head.

Interesting to note, I see a very nice Arab with a typy head, nice body,great strong bone, good feet (now), a nice shoulder and hip who looks like he can power down the trail all day, then come back for more. From the sounds of it, he has a nice temperment to boot.

On the downside, he MAY look just a smidge over at the knee, but the angle of the pictures don't tell me if he is, or if it's just the angle of the picture. Either way, no horse is perfect, and if you keep waiting for the perfect stallion to breed, you'll never breed.

Personally, as the worlds pickiest person ever, I'd consider breeding to this guy providing he proved to be a successful endurance horse. I particularly like his nice mind and the bone. If I were breeding, this is what I would be looking for. Of course, I refuse to own mares, my pms and thier pms always seems to come at the same time, and war ensues. I choose to not have wars with my horse every month, and therefore I have geldings....

AT, keep up the good work. He's a beautiful animal, and you have him in splendid condition.

AnotherRound
Mar. 28, 2010, 04:39 AM
Ouch guys...sheesh, can't even say "yay my boys doing great" without getting clubbed upside the head.



No, not really. Because she isn't saying "Yay, my boy's dong great". She's saying "yay, he was skinny but now he's shiny, and even thought my boy isn't doing great, becase, after all, he has a club foot and no performance record, we've decided to breed him anyway, and he just Lurrrves the new hand jobs he gets for his semen collection.

Its not really the "yay, I found a diamond in the ruff" its really "yay, I've been wanting to pass this guy off as a diamond for a while, and over time there are enough people reading this who might not know my history of making things up enough to create a collective "Yay" if I title my thread "Yay" and if I say "Shame on you for not saying Yay because that's what I wanted when I started this thread". There is a little more going on than "Yay" my back yard stallion is beyond belief quality, after all, and doesn't need to adhere to the standards of breed quality.

Any other person would be required to justity breeding this horse. Or else explain their reasoning for not gelding it.

Some read for comprehenshion. Others read for feel good "yay'.

SaY "YAY" if you must, if you can't critially analyse. But those of us who can evAluate what we read ask questions.

AnotherRound
Mar. 28, 2010, 04:50 AM
as I don't really post much.



Or read much. Over the years, there have been many reasons to question A2's veracity and reality and reasoning, between her several online personas. Since you apparently don't read much, either, over these many years, you may need to be told that there have been many unconsciencable attemts to elicit "yays" about her horses and her 'expertise' which have been found to be manufactured or poorly substantiated. Breeding a 'found' horse and trying to pass it off as a quality sire in a back yard breeding operation by someone who has, over the years, denigrated and lied about traditional veterinary medicine is suspect at best, and worthy of critical evaluation.

Anyone who doesn't read online claims critically from horse people who have over the years, and even over the past week contradicted themselves and their claims in the same post, by golly, isn't paying attention.

"Yay" issn't really the right word to apply to this situation.

AnotherRound
Mar. 28, 2010, 04:57 AM
Ditto.

Did someone appoint you, RidingAllDay, as A2's breeding police monitor? :confused: :(

Methinks this is a Nunya.... none of your (or ours, for that matter) business. ;)

A2D2's breeding is the topic of her posts- and when the folks who are conecerned bout what kind of DNA and what kind of conformation gets passed along in back yard breeding operations read about it, they comment.

When someong makes their backyard breeding operation public, then, yes, it becomes public business. I agree with the post - and don't you ever dare say it isn't my businees - whatever anyone on this BB posts is my business because they posted it to me. Do not ever attempt to shame me into not commenting about what I read here - or what anyone else wants to comment about having read here - we are members and have a right to respond to what we read.

It is, after all a public bulletin board.

What are you, Choco, the posting police? Unless you have 'moderator' or 'administrator' attached to your post, I have no respect for your attempt to moderate my or anyone elses' responses on a thread.

AnotherRound
Mar. 28, 2010, 05:14 AM
AR - This is NOT an advertisement for breeding.

I never intimated you were posting as an advertisement.

I think probably you WILL be advertising his breeding and solciting breedings in the near future, and I quesiton your ethics and I really want to know what your breeding program is.

Because I do not belive your assertion that you will not breed him. Nor that you wlll not breed him unless he has performance records. Nor your assertion that breeding isn't your program. I think you intend to breed him.

I don't think he is worth of consideration for stallion-hood and I do not think you have justified not gelding him, as you intimated you were considering, when you got him in May. What happend? Why did you not, after all, geld him? You are not a professional breeder, and he does not fit into a good breeding program, and despite your disuccion of breeding him, you have not, even though asked repeatedly, stated your breeding program and how he fits into it. Is that because you don't HAVE a breeding program? Is that because you can't justify him fitting into that program? So what is going on?

People don't like it when we ask you critical quetions about the assertions you make. Those are the sorts of people who don't make critical evaluations about the professionals they interact with, or at least the people they interact with who claim to be horse people or professionals. I am not concerned with those who try to shame me out of making critical evaluations about the people I come into contact with who claiim they are doing horses good. I evaluate that. So.

Why would you breed a club footed stallion? Why, actually, would you START a breding program with such a specimin? What are you trying to do?

Auventera Two
Mar. 28, 2010, 09:05 AM
Ouch guys...sheesh, can't even say "yay my boys doing great" without getting clubbed upside the head.

Interesting to note, I see a very nice Arab with a typy head, nice body,great strong bone, good feet (now), a nice shoulder and hip who looks like he can power down the trail all day, then come back for more. From the sounds of it, he has a nice temperment to boot.

On the downside, he MAY look just a smidge over at the knee, but the angle of the pictures don't tell me if he is, or if it's just the angle of the picture. Either way, no horse is perfect, and if you keep waiting for the perfect stallion to breed, you'll never breed.

Personally, as the worlds pickiest person ever, I'd consider breeding to this guy providing he proved to be a successful endurance horse. I particularly like his nice mind and the bone. If I were breeding, this is what I would be looking for. Of course, I refuse to own mares, my pms and thier pms always seems to come at the same time, and war ensues. I choose to not have wars with my horse every month, and therefore I have geldings....

AT, keep up the good work. He's a beautiful animal, and you have him in splendid condition.

Thanks for your nice post! I am really excited for the riding season. He's come along so nicely.

There are very few "perfect horses" in the world, regardless of breed. I have looked at a few stallions in person who looked almost nothing like their photoshopped marketing materials. :eek: People pay thousands for photoshoots with professional photographers so that every teenie detail can be photoshopped until the horse looks like a million bucks. That won't ever happen here :winkgrin: I talked to a photographer about doing both my arabs (was out of my price range) and my informational packet contained a list of photoshopping fees, and things that could be fixed or altered for a fee. The Magnum Psyches of the world with the $20,000 stud fees aren't practical for the average joe who wants to breed for a nice trail or endurance prospect.

My mother and I went to see a big name warmblood stallion on the east coast and he was a blithering idiot, screaming, cribbing collar on, kicking the walls, couldn't be handled without a chain through the mouth. His neck was covered in sarcoids but that wasn't shown in the photos. ;) Ditto for plenty of QH studs I've looked at around here. The horse's mind and behavior means a LOT to me because that's what keeps you alive and safe.

I have a stallion DVD from one of the most well known endurance breeding programs in the country. They stand 3 stallions. One of them has a right hind leg that is so crooked and bowed, it's amazing the horse can even walk, let alone do 50 mile races. Every time he's shown moving away from the camera, the leg makes you cringe. One of the other ones has a terrible swayback and a loin so dropped off you could ski down it. When I ordered the DVD, I talked to their trainer on the phone who warned me about the one horse's "weird conformation" but she assured me it does not affect the babies at all. Hmm, ok. The third guy is pretty nice but still nothing I'd call perfect. All 3 seem to have beautiful dispositions though and clearly adore their people. I know one has a good endurance record, can't remember about the other two, but they all sire some great babies who have won Tevis, or otherwise made very impressive names for themselves.

At the end of the day its all about the horse geting the job done, loves doing it, and can stay sound and come back and do it tomorrow. Can my guy stay sound over the miles? Don't know until we try. No different than any other horse.

The two salient points here are that (1) the horse isn't advertised for breeding, so this entire conversation really is silly and moot ;) and (2) even if he were, for every person who likes him, there will be one who doesn't. Not exactly shocking news there. There are other COTH members who own stallions, post on the breeder's forum, and show off their stallions constantly, and I wouldn't breed to them if the breeding were free. But I don't stalk and attack them and try to drive the point home. Whatever, it's not my business. I think "ooh I don't care for that stallion" and then move on to another thread.

hitchinmygetalong
Mar. 28, 2010, 09:23 AM
The two salient points here are that (1) the horse isn't advertised for breeding, so this entire conversation really is silly and moot ;)

Oh no?

From your website:


If you value a solid minded working horse with great disposition and conformation, this is your guy. You won't find him rearing at the end of a chain shank in the halter ring or snorting and blowing for the cameras with his eyes greased up, but if you care about raising an old-style, hard working, classic Arabian horse, Andre may be a good choice for your mare. Please call [redatcted] for breeding information. Bookings for 2010 will be limited to a few approved* mares at private treaty.

Wow. Sure sounds like an advertisement to me. :confused:

Huntertwo
Mar. 28, 2010, 09:36 AM
Geez A2,
I'm kind of envious of the huge fan club you have on here...;)

For people to take so much time stalking and picking apart every word you have typed is pretty flattering...

I do have to wonder if these people have the balls to go to the "Breeding" forum and rip apart the horses on there.
I somehow doubt it. Much easier to stalk one person... Although kind of freakish.

I wish I had that much time on my hands.. Freaks.:yes:

Auventera Two
Mar. 28, 2010, 09:36 AM
I don't exactly consider that "advertising" when no one is likely to even find the website unless you were given the web address to begin with.:rolleyes:

mp
Mar. 28, 2010, 09:43 AM
h
And you made the responsible choice by not contributing to a future of flawed footed Arabs.

I've always approached it with the idea that I'd have to be happy to get a foal that's an exact copy of either parent OR a one that had every flaw they both had. If not, then no breeding. I wouldn't buy a horse with a club foot again, so I decided to cut my chances of producing one by not breeding that mare.

So we bought another mare and bred her. Her strengths were: good feet, good conformation, decent size and very desirable bloodlines. Her weaknesses were a not-so-pretty head, and shoulder that was a little steep. She was also pretty hot, but she'd been raced, held up to the training and stress, and as a broodie, had produced winners on the track. Of the four foals that mare produced for us, I'd put three up against any other Arabians as excellent examples of the breed. The other one is nice, but nothing spectacular (I let the husband pick the stallion on that one :p).

meh. Breeding is a crapshoot, even when you think you're doing everything right. That why I quit, and I'm just an armchair critic now. ;)

Auventera Two
Mar. 28, 2010, 09:47 AM
Geez A2,
I'm kind of envious of the huge fan club you have on here...;)

For people to take so much time stalking and picking apart every word you have typed is pretty flattering...

I do have to wonder if these people have the balls to go to the "Breeding" forum and rip apart the horses on there.
I somehow doubt it. Much easier to stalk one person... Although kind of freakish.

I wish I had that much time on my hands.. Freaks.:yes:

Boy, no kidding hu? :lol: I feel sorry for people that make themselves feel powerful and happy by tearing down others for the pure joy of it. Sure I have strong and unpopular opinions on certain issues (dressage, parelli, hoof care) and aren't afraid to say them, but I have never singled out one person and stalked and tormented them for years, like some here have. I post strong opinions on topics, but I can't recall ever targeting in on an individual and harassing them endlessly from thread to thread over 5 years time. They did the same thing to slc on the dressage forum. Her opinions often aren't popular. She posts long winded novels that are impossible to decipher most of the time, but she never attacks other people or gets joy out of tearing others down. She just posts and does her thing - and if they don't like it, they don't have to read. No big deal. But they made it a sport out of tearing her down and attacking her at every opportunity. You just have to feel sorry for people that get joy out of purposely attacking other people.

saratoga
Mar. 28, 2010, 10:46 AM
I'm glad A2 is back! These threads are oh so entertaining.

Honestly, I get frustrated reading some of the bad advice that A2 gives about endurance, when in fact she's only done a handful of LDs and no endurance. Then, when people who actually *have* done endurance respond, she will disagree with them and disregard what they are saying.

I think Andre is a nice looking horse who certainly looks like he could do well in endurance. But, there are really lots of nice looking horses out there who could do well in endurance, so I personally wouldnt want to be involved with producing any more!

mp
Mar. 28, 2010, 11:39 AM
I do have to wonder if these people have the balls to go to the "Breeding" forum and rip apart the horses on there.
I somehow doubt it.

I most certainly do comment on discussions on the Breeding forum when they concern Arabians. I have experience in that area, and with Arabians in general. But if someone doesn't want to believe I know what I'm talking about, that's OK. This is the internet, after all. No one needs credentials to post whatever he or she wants.

And I don't rip people apart for making what IME are ill-informed decisions. They're going to have enough problems learning their lessons the hard way.

hitchinmygetalong
Mar. 28, 2010, 11:41 AM
I don't exactly consider that "advertising" when no one is likely to even find the website unless you were given the web address to begin with.:rolleyes:

You said you were not advertising him.

I found incontrovertible evidence that you were. All it took was clicking one of your numerous photo links, which of course contains your web address. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. :)

IdahoRider
Mar. 28, 2010, 12:06 PM
Methinks this is a Nunya.... none of your (or ours, for that matter) business. ;)
Actually, I would disagree with this statement. Poor breeding decisions that lead to even one more mediocre horse on the ground has an impact on ALL of us. And as the owner of an Arabian and a lover of the breed, I can say honestly that we are DROWNING in these horses.

And until this particular "boy" has proven himself in some kind of performance venue, he is nothing more than a mediocre horse with working testicles. Endurance prospect? Will his feet hold up through a 50 mile ride? What about a season of 50 mile rides?

Prove his worth as a performance horse first, then decide what to do with his testicles. No amount of complaining about bitchiness from others can hide the fact that proving this horse's reproductive worthiness is the OP's first responsibility. It isn't enough to just say that he is handsome, or shiny or that he walks down the trail nicely. Or that there is someone out there who asked to breed to him.

Sloppy breeding practices impact all horse people and we should never slam anyone for pointing this out.
Sheilah

katarine
Mar. 28, 2010, 12:21 PM
If you want a post to be about what you say it's about, compose it as such.

But folks will still do as they please. If you post a thread about 'hey guys, what are your thoughts about this horse's demeanor, he seems too blah to me' you may get a 40 paragraph essay about your training and driving skills, and nary a word about what you asked about. We all will do as we please.

egontoast
Mar. 28, 2010, 01:33 PM
I've avoided posting on this thread because I know the 'chip on shoulder trigger finger' of the Op will send this immediately to the moderator without considering the comments at all so I'll just suggest this as mildly as possible.

I don't always agree with the Fugly website but one very good thing that has been achieved by that website is to make more people think twice about breeding more unwanted horses just because they can.

what is obvious from the photos the Op herself has published is that this stallion has crooked front legs and a club foot.

Club feet aren't always "grazing feet". Saying so does not make it so. Sometimes it is genetic.
Crooked front legs are also a red flag for breeding.


Something to consider but the Op won't consider it. She will just press the alert button.

I suggest that the OP post some very frank and clear conformation photos of her stallion (without fuzzy photoshop)
showing from all angles the legs, feet and neck, on the SHB forum before deciding to make more just because she can.

RidingAllDay
Mar. 28, 2010, 02:36 PM
I don't always agree with the Fugly website but one very good thing that has been achieved by that website is to make more people think twice about breeding more unwanted horses just because they can.



Eggzactly! And the OP denying this isn't an indirect advert does nothing to disabuse that notion.

This is an advert for her unproven, mediocre stallion.



I suggest that the OP post some very frank and clear conformation photos of her stallion (without fuzzy photoshop)
showing from all angles the legs, feet and neck, on the SHB forum before deciding to make more just because she can.

Yes wouldn't that be interesting. Of course, I found the OP railing about breeders photoshop'ing their horses to be quite funny. I don't think I've seen one photo of her stallion that wasn't photoshopped to have a magikal glow about him.

This isn't about trainwrecking a thread, this is about asking the OP to try and stick to the same story for more than 2 posts.

Auventera Two
Mar. 28, 2010, 03:03 PM
Well bless your hearts :D You're all on ignore, so snipe away, make up all the lies you want, twist and blow up the truth into your own special little form of DRAHHHHH-MAAAAAA but I won't be responding to the same old litterbox crowd that's been stalking me for years. Funny there's thousands of posters on coth and it's the same old clan of bitties that just can't seem to find anything better to do with their lives. Constructive criticism and honest opinions are fine. What you "ladies" do is not, so I'm done with it. Makes no difference WHAT I post, the same old clan will attack and lie for the sake of drama so you can run back to your private board and laugh about how you really attacked me this time and the mods didn't delete it. If this horse belonged to anybody else, I bet the tone of these posts would be much different. If it was anyone else showing how incorrect hoof form was fixed through proper trimming, it would be a non-issue. But since it's me, you'll argue that the horse is club footed forever. Well, whatever. Have at it. He is NOT club footed by ANY means and anyone who argues otherwise doesn't have the first clue what a true genetic club foot is.

When I have posted photos of my other horses, they too have been attacked and picked apart limb for limb, with every aspect criticized. One of the famous clan members dared to tell me that my old pony mare is BLIND and I'm too stupid to know it. Simply because the camera flash created a reflection on her eyeball. So that lie was spread around as it if was truth, and the mare most certainly is NOT blind! Good grief. If that's not a clue that this is some kind of vendetta then I don't know what is.

That's fine, this is the internet and you can do what you want. But I'm done reading the trash. Your posts are hidden, and I don't have to read the filth and lies anymore. Have fun with yourselves! :D !

hitchinmygetalong
Mar. 28, 2010, 03:11 PM
Constructive criticism and honest opinions are fine.

Obviously not.

RidingAllDay
Mar. 28, 2010, 03:22 PM
Constructive criticism and honest opinions are fine.

What you "ladies" do is not, so I'm done with it.

Your posts are hidden, and I don't have to read the filth and lies anymore. Have fun with yourselves! :D !

Excuse me but I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the litterbox.

I thought you had me and a few others on ignore already, I'm surprised to keep hearing from you.

The point A2 and one that you don't seem to get is that YOU get responses based on YOUR postings. No one is stalking you, no one is keeping tally of your every move. It is just that many folks know that what you say is full of crickey and it is an easy search to find you contradicting yourself.

You cry foul more than Peter did in regards to the wolf. It gets old and tiresome, and therefore worthy of pointing out.

I really thought your self imposed timeout would help you grow up, but alas, it is not to be.

Try telling the same story more than once, stick to it more than a day or so and see if maybe things calm down for you.

Good luck with the ignore and good luck with your breeding program. Just be sure to pull the LOG out of your eye before pulling the splinter out of others.

ta.

admin
Mar. 28, 2010, 03:50 PM
I'm going to shut this thread because it has devolved from a conversation about the original poster's horse to personal attacks and sniping.

Moderator 3