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Quest52
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:02 PM
The thread talking about people who school a horse at a particular level and then show down 2 or there levels got me thinking... what do you all think about a horse and rider combination showing more than 2 levels within a season?? IE: combo, in one years time, shows training, first and second.

I personally don't think its fair and that there should be a rule against it. At least showing and not going in HC etc.

So, what are your thoughts on horse and rider combos showing level "leaps" like that?

Beam Me Up
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:06 PM
Showing training, 1st, and 2nd in a year doesn't bother me at all. So I guess I don't think it should be illegal.

meupatdoes
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:18 PM
Fundamentally, these proposed limitations are about the RIBBONS and the AWARDS, not the SCORES.

The SCORES of the other riders will not change whether Totilas comes and does TL or not.

Their placement in the RIBBONS, however, would.


Basically, it is wanting to make sure you get the higher ribbon for the same performance by strategically arranging the sandbox. The quality of your ride will remain the same.

joiedevie99
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:19 PM
Sometimes a rider moves up quickly after getting a schoolmaster type because they had solid basics. Nothing wrong with that. Some horses have trouble holding fitness and I have no problem with them coming out at the beginning of the season down a level, i.e. a local GP horse showing I-1 until strength for p/p is re-confirmed.

I also think that some of the phenomenal horses being bred for the job have a much easier time with the early stuff- so I wouldn't blink an eye at a 5 year old that shows training, first and FEI 5 y/o in the same year.

Quest52
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:25 PM
I also think that some of the phenomenal horses being bred for the job have a much easier time with the early stuff- so I wouldn't blink an eye at a 5 year old that shows training, first and FEI 5 y/o in the same year.

seeing as though the FEI 5 y/o test is equivalent to 1st level, I wouldn't either.

http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/ruleChanges/2005/ApprovedEC10-18-05.pdf

rabicon
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:28 PM
It depends I guess. I have a mutt horse ;) that is very nice and holds his own and usually is on top, but we school 1st and now some 2nd level movements. My plan is to show rated training this year and 1st schooling. We started at intro 2 years ago and moved to training at the end of that year and did training all last year (had canter issues) so I think we are now ready for training USDF but not 1st.

joiedevie99
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:28 PM
Fair enough. I've always thought of the final as middle second level. http://www.usef.org/documents/international/dressage/youngHorse/2006Final5.pdf

Tif_Ann
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:37 PM
Timely thread! Depending on how the first two go, I'll be doing three levels in one schooling show in May. I don't think that's allowed in recognized shows? But Pi and I didn't get to show last year because of his cancer issues, but I've been told by my trainers to "skip training and just show first" this year. But we've NEVER shown in a dressage show, so I'm expecting some nerves ... so our first show we are planning Intro B as a warmup, Training 4 and First 1 if everything goes well. So obviously I don't see a problem with it.

lewin
Mar. 19, 2010, 12:44 AM
I might be doing 1st, 2nd, and 3rd this year. I came out at 3rd last year and we were a bit of a mess. Tense, rushing, flat, and apparently I cannot see a corner. So we took our low-to-mid 50 scores (and comments of "nice effort") and worked on a lot of homework last year. I am dropping down and showing 1st and 2nd for our first few shows. But if we can get our scores and do well in our first couple of shows, I may just go ahead and get either scores or more homework at 3rd.

Dressage Art
Mar. 19, 2010, 02:13 AM
According to USEF Rule Book, it's "consecutive levels" aka 1st/2nd. So more than two "consecutive levels" like 1st/2nd/3rd at the same show is too much.

In the whole year it doesn't matter.

caddym
Mar. 19, 2010, 06:38 AM
Timely thread! Depending on how the first two go, I'll be doing three levels in one schooling show in May. I don't think that's allowed in recognized shows? But Pi and I didn't get to show last year because of his cancer issues, but I've been told by my trainers to "skip training and just show first" this year. But we've NEVER shown in a dressage show, so I'm expecting some nerves ... so our first show we are planning Intro B as a warmup, Training 4 and First 1 if everything goes well. So obviously I don't see a problem with it.

Like Dressage Art said this is not legal to do at ONE show. You could enter intro & training or training and 1st but not intro and 1st.

To the OP I would rather see someone who started at training finish the year at second as opposed to staying at training / first all year, showing below their capabilities and spoiling it for the other competitors

Silver~Image~Farm
Mar. 19, 2010, 07:59 AM
Just a note that last year I observed a horse that showed (schooling locally) 2nd, 3rd, 4th and PSG in the course of the show year.....earned "championships with 2 riders.......

:eek::yes::eek:

Just an observation, no opinion......to busy riding my own!

SillyHorse
Mar. 19, 2010, 08:13 AM
The thread talking about people who school a horse at a particular level and then show down 2 or there levels got me thinking... what do you all think about a horse and rider combination showing more than 2 levels within a season?? IE: combo, in one years time, shows training, first and second.

I personally don't think its fair and that there should be a rule against it. At least showing and not going in HC etc.

So, what are your thoughts on horse and rider combos showing level "leaps" like that?
A rule against what? Impreovment? Moving up the levels when appropriate? I really don't understand what this issue is.

One poster complains about people NOT moving up, now one complains about people who do. I'll ask you, just like I asked the other thread starter: how exactly does this effect you? Unless that horse that is moving quickly up the levels is moving into your class, and might beat you? Is that the problem?

yaya
Mar. 19, 2010, 09:26 AM
Like Dressage Art said this is not legal to do at ONE show. You could enter intro & training or training and 1st but not intro and 1st.

To the OP I would rather see someone who started at training finish the year at second as opposed to staying at training / first all year, showing below their capabilities and spoiling it for the other competitors

She stated that this was at a schooling show (and noted the difference at recognized shows).

Not all schooling shows follow USEF rules.

Tif_Ann
Mar. 19, 2010, 09:57 AM
She stated that this was at a schooling show (and noted the difference at recognized shows).

Not all schooling shows follow USEF rules.

Yep, this is a schooling show. The rules are "You may ride as many tests in a class that you want. You may ride the same test more than once. You may ride as many levels as you want." It's part of the reason I'm going to this particular show - we have to drive 3-4 hours to do any kind of dressage show, so if I'm going that far I'm going to get as much experience as I can.

Obviously, after the first couple schooling shows, we won't be doing Intro anymore.

rideforthelaurels16
Mar. 19, 2010, 10:28 AM
I think it's largely circumstantial. I don't agree with people rushing through the levels just to be doing a certain level, but I think there are a lot of cases in which it's okay. For example, I have a really nice TB who had evented at Novice level a couple of years back but was really lacking in basics. I've spent seven months doing just dressage, his basics are there now, and he's improving rapidly. Neither he nor I have ever done a straight dressage show before, so I'm going to take him to a schooling show next month and probably do Training 3 & 4, and First 1. Depending on how that goes, the next show we'll maybe do First 2, or even 3. Because of where I live I'll be doing mostly schooling shows this year, with one or two USDF in the middle of the summer (at which we'll show First level). I'm schooling fairly solid 2nd level with him right now and I'd like to try out Second 1 at the end of the season.
I think someone doing all the FEI levels in one year would be a lot worse than the lower levels. Of course, I could well be wrong - I have never ridden FEI, so perhaps that's a natural progression.

ponyjumper4
Mar. 19, 2010, 11:00 AM
so our first show we are planning Intro B as a warmup, Training 4 and First 1 if everything goes well. So obviously I don't see a problem with it.

If you're worried about nerves, why don't you do training 1, not Intro B or ride it HC. Don't compete against the beginners/kids. Your horse isn't that green if he's doing First 1, so no need to do a walk trot test. That's the only time I hate to see people ride multiple levels on the same horse.

ESG
Mar. 19, 2010, 11:06 AM
Just a note that last year I observed a horse that showed (schooling locally) 2nd, 3rd, 4th and PSG in the course of the show year.....earned "championships with 2 riders.......

:eek::yes::eek:

Just an observation, no opinion......to busy riding my own!

And as long as neither of those riders showed the horse more than two consecutive level at one show, there's no problem.

That said, when a horse does our Region 9 championships, it can only have one rider for the duration of the championship, so the two championships are questionable, IMO. But if you're talking about national championships, or USDF medal qualifications, or division championships at shows, that's a different story.

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 19, 2010, 11:06 AM
Call me crazy :) But I couldnt care less, since there is SOOOO much to learn in dressage and since its SOOO hard to get good instruction.

When I find a good trainer, I work with them depleting my funds rather than showing :yes:

My horse will def be sandbagging lol, because we wont be able to get out until after say oh, about 4 more years of training unless I want to drive an ungodly amount of hours lol.

Of course, the girls are talking about a road trip, but anyway.

When I go to the shows, I still see SO many ammy's have a very western way of sitting or a chair seat, hunter seat, and what not, AND then the posed straighter seat that is still but almost tense.

I too struggled/struggle with this so THAT is my own goal instead of working tests and movements.

I focus so much on getting my own horses joints bending and being used properly, I wouldnt even want him in front of a judge without his own gaits more pure.

Valentina_32926
Mar. 19, 2010, 11:08 AM
Showing training, 1st, and 2nd in a year doesn't bother me at all. So I guess I don't think it should be illegal.

I agree. I'm showing third once we complete nailing the changes I could show Fourth or skip to PSG - once my mare "gets it" why should I stay at a lower level until my "Year" is up.

Then the next thing would be WHEN does the year start - January? 365 days after I last showed at a level? That means a LOT of paperwork to track this - which means more fees to pay for tracking it. :mad:

Tif_Ann
Mar. 19, 2010, 11:15 AM
If you're worried about nerves, why don't you do training 1, not Intro B or ride it HC. Don't compete against the beginners/kids. Your horse isn't that green if he's doing First 1, so no need to do a walk trot test. That's the only time I hate to see people ride multiple levels on the same horse.

Because Pi is blind and deaf on the right, nearly blind on the left, and while at the H/J shows we've gone to he's been a pro, I can't guarantee that he will not have nerves at this show. We're going alone, with no other horses that he knows. And I'm just as worried about my nerves :). It's highly possible that Intro B will be an absolute failure and we won't do the First 1 anyway :)

But I'll keep that in mind. I originally planned on not doing Intro (because I agree - seems somewhat wrong to be doing Intro when I will be doing First as well) but have had several friends tell me to do a W/T test for my nerves.

Oh, and I'll gladly do the Intro test HC if they will allow it. I don't care about the ribbons.

esdressage
Mar. 19, 2010, 11:21 AM
As a rule it doesn't bother me at all. A horse should be able to move up as he's ready, and like others have said, a naturally gifted horse would be able to move from training to 2nd quite easily under the right rider within a year, or conversely a schoolmaster bringing along a rider who needs experience. Within a single show, that would be pretty rediculous of course.

Personally though, the only thing that would bother me about it would be seeing a horse do that with holes in his training, brought along too fast for his physical or mental ability. But that's personal, not part of a ruleā€¦

Gloria
Mar. 19, 2010, 12:08 PM
The appropriate level to show is the level you feel comfortable showing. And don't let anyone bully you into showing a level you aren't comfortable with. Generally the recommendation is schooling 1~2 levels above the level you want to show. I know some feel threatened by people schooling 2 level above but that is exactly many top trainers recommend their students to do.

I myself much prefer to see a horse that is more prepared and thus more relaxed at the level he is ready and comfortable at, than being forced and tense at a level he is not. Most time I see riders who rush than riders who wait. For god's sake, regardless what we call it, it is still a "show".