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View Full Version : OUTRAGED!!! by the use of Spike Poles and other abusive methods by local "big name" trainers.



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luvmytrakehnerwb
Mar. 24, 2004, 06:56 PM
I would just like to comment on how shocked I am at the number of so called "excellent" trainers (in my area at least) that use methods like this of training horses to jump. I read an article awhile back on a related issue to this and it clearly states...BY LAW>>>SPIKE POLES, SHARP OBJECTS IN PROTECTIVE BOOTS, and other forms of PAINFUL training IS ILLEGAL AND CONSIDERED ABUSE! Please take this in to consideration and let somone know if you know of trainers doing this. Just out of curiosity do any of you know of trainers who do this? What are your opinions and such?

luvmytrakehnerwb
Mar. 24, 2004, 06:56 PM
I would just like to comment on how shocked I am at the number of so called "excellent" trainers (in my area at least) that use methods like this of training horses to jump. I read an article awhile back on a related issue to this and it clearly states...BY LAW>>>SPIKE POLES, SHARP OBJECTS IN PROTECTIVE BOOTS, and other forms of PAINFUL training IS ILLEGAL AND CONSIDERED ABUSE! Please take this in to consideration and let somone know if you know of trainers doing this. Just out of curiosity do any of you know of trainers who do this? What are your opinions and such?

Tha Ridge
Mar. 24, 2004, 07:26 PM
Have you every seen a spike pole?

It's nubby plastic, like the bottom of an office mat. I would hardly call it painful...

Do you really think that trainers are going to subject their very, very expensive horses to pain. I don't think so.

Maybe get some real info about what goes on THEN come and complain. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

- L.

It's all about the act right.

zedcadjna
Mar. 24, 2004, 07:27 PM
I know of a few trainers who put the tacks you use on carpeting on tape and lay them on their jumps so when their horses hit a fence they know it . Not all trainers use harsh methods, I believe that every horse has a calling, if it wasnt meant to jump don't make it, Let it do something else..

http://community.webshots.com/user/zedcadjna

whalo
Mar. 24, 2004, 07:34 PM
I think the pain of hitting a heavy wooden poll over and over outways the pain of hitting some plastic tacks a couple of times and then deciding to be a little less lazy and not hit it the next time. they dont hurt them that bad just enough to make a horse say ya know what that pole is a bit heavy and now its a little prickly maybe i better just pick up my feet a little more.

juppy
Mar. 24, 2004, 08:07 PM
Whalo,

Putting a horse in pain to make him better is not the way at all. If that is the case then there are alot of riders that need to be beat to near death to be better riders.

luvmytrakehnerwb
Mar. 24, 2004, 08:20 PM
i agree juppy....

Tha Ridge...I know for FACT...seen first hand trainers use heavy wooden spike poles w/ METAL NAILS poking out of then. I've seen horses w/ legs up from them...maybe you've seen (or used http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) milder versions...but if its now a LAW stating they're a form of abuse, I think it is an issue

whalo
Mar. 24, 2004, 08:21 PM
juppy,
the point i was trying to make is the pain inflicted on the skin of the horses leg from the tacks is much better than if the repeatedly knock a rail and get sore shins and such. If they decide that the pricks bug them enough to pick up thier feet then they will save themselves from soreness later from hard rubs on the rails repeatedly. Plus are you against spurs also??

luvmytrakehnerwb
Mar. 24, 2004, 08:27 PM
whalo, spurs are a different topic...both spurs and whips can be used constructivly or abusivly. any artificle aid used to train a horse can be abusive. Whips and spurs can cause lacerations and brusing if used improperly. As for the spike poles seen around local barns and some of the horses legs...I think you'd be shocked.

ponychic3
Mar. 24, 2004, 08:38 PM
Well then i think that these spiked poles can additionally be used as "training devices" although i dont deney that some use them abusivly. About the "by law statement" this law is used primaraly for the safty of the ride it is very dangerous to have riders fallign off or being dragged in to sharp objects. And although i dont fully agree with the use of such things it will 1) teach the animal not to do it again and might prevent further health issuse and 2) i feel that spicked polls, spicked boots, nosebands with spickes, wips, spurs, even eltrical fencing ...etc all fall hand in hand by being training materials that may/can turn abusive

*~First god made man, then he though better of it and made a woman, and then he made a horse who combines the spirit and strangth of a man and the beauty and grace of a woman~*
Astound (this is my new boy that i got from OH)
Western Dance <3
Lauren Bacall <3 (for sale)

Blondie22
Mar. 24, 2004, 09:17 PM
I went to a reputable trainer's barn to school a couple years ago and she had spiked poles. They're no big deal. As previously said, they are just plastic and inflict no visible wound to the horse. Just makes them get those knees up higher http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fourmares
Mar. 24, 2004, 09:47 PM
Most people don't realize that it is a misdeamenor in California to use spiked poles. Personally I don't want to support a trainer that is willing to use them. It shows me that he isn't able (or willing) to teach a horse to jump correctly without taking shortcuts.

AKM
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:49 AM
If you have to use such devices as spiked poles, etc. maybe your horse isn't destined to be a hunter/jumper. Why are we forever trying to convince our horses to be something they aren't? Can't we just respect our horses as they are? There's a reason why these devices were termed as abusive guys...

Tha Ridge
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:28 AM
Oh, come on, it doesn't mean the horse isn't cut-out to be a Hunter or a Jumper.

Horses get lazy, some just for the heck of it...how wrong is it for them to get a reminder once in awhile?

I've been with a trainer who use(s/d) them and believe me, I didn't leave her because of that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I don't think I've met a trainer or rider that was competitive on the "A"-circuit that really even cared about spiked rails...

- L.

It's all about the act right.

cherham
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:38 AM
Have you ever tried to even touch those plastic pointy ends on a plastic carpet runner. They are horrendously painful.

No one is going to tell me that a horse hitting those darn things (even brushing them) at speed over a fence is not going to feel it or "it is no worse then hitting a rail" The rails will fall off...those spikes and the hurt they cause remain on those legs for a while.

In Canada I do believe they are illegal to use. I personally would be appalled to see anyone use it to teach a horse to be more "careful". And I would certainly have no association with people that did so.

There is absolutely no excuse for this type of behaviour or mistreatment in training a horse to jump in my opinion.

And I must disagree with "The Ridge" comment that no rider or trainer on the A circuit even cares about spiked rails being used on their horses. Are you kidding?????? (I hope so for your horses sake)

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:41 AM
the real question for pretty much anyone involved in training any kind of animal is where to toe the line. If you don't use any artificial anything of any kind, then, i hate to say it, you're probably taking one of the least efficient, most time consuming and fustrating paths of training. Aside from the "I'm all natural, hahahaha," organic farming pride that you might get, all you're going to feel is fustrated, and, more importantly, all your horse is going to feel is confused. So you know what, if your horse finally understands that it's a heck of a lot easier for him to carry himself than to be tottering around balanced on your hands, then sticking a mikmar in his mouth might not be the worst idea. If a schooling session or a few shows with a chain noseband help the horse realize that if he doesn't run you will, in fact, get him to easier-to-jump-from distances, use it. If a short, to the point poling session before you go to a show keeps the horse from coming back with sore shins, and honestly, keeps you from paying for him to go in and 8fault his way around a course, fine.

HOWEVER, those are all tricks to be put in a bag, like being able to jump out of hand in case there's a tight turn or always riding with a stick and spurs, even if your horse doesn't need them. It is your OBLIGATION, as someone who has chosen to accept the responsiblity of horse ownership, to know where training aide turns into abusive article:

square pole? fine. pole wrapped in nubby rubber? fine. pole with carpet tacks on it? not fine.

harsh bit in nice hands? fine. bit of any short in not nice hands? not really fine. harsh bit in bad hands? terrible.

riding in deep and weak to a high vertical with no boots? fine. weighted boots? fine. boots with shards in them? not fine.

gadgets aren't really like guns: there's no positive use for a gun, but there can be positive uses for gadgets...however, they're both similar in that it is the action of a person, not the dormant object, that can be bad.

The problem is that a lot of poeple use tricks that they don't know how to use, and they work marginally well, but not well enough. if you're going to wrap a pole in something nubby, you have to ride to it so that the horse hits it really hard. If you can't do that (and you'd be surprise at how many trainers you see in the mornings trying to get a rub and not--at least one would hope they're trying to get a rub with the distances they're going to) then you might think "ahh, the horse isn't resonding. where are the nails?" because your ego is too inflated to realize that if you rode properly the horse would respond.

so that's my uberlong reply.

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

my buddy's blue
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:44 AM
I do not think that spiked poles should ever be used. How would you like to be having an off day and have someone knock the crap out of you with sharp nails. Why can't they come up with a different method? Iknow of agreat way to get horses to pick not only their knees but their whole front end uo higher and there is no pain. I would not support a trainer who uses spiked poles or even hits one with a regular pole. Not when what they want to accomplish can be done other painless ways.

tidy rabbit
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:44 AM
I know Grand Prix riders / trainers on BOTH coasts who have successful businesses and horses who use these methods and I've seen some use poling too.

Think of it this way, if you're heading through a course of 4 Ft 9 inche high jumps you don't want to do it on a horse who is not sharp and careful, you could both get seriously injured or killed.

~~Every year the senseless slaughtering of millions just for their hides. Poor little Nagas.~~

"I admitted to myself and to god that I am powerless over COTHBB" - anonymous.

tidy rabbit
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:46 AM
I've NEVER seen someone use nails on a pole. Plastic strips with nubs on them yes, nails no.

~~Every year the senseless slaughtering of millions just for their hides. Poor little Nagas.~~

"I admitted to myself and to god that I am powerless over COTHBB" - anonymous.

AdultMedals
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:22 AM
We have spike poles at my barn and I really don't think they're a big deal. Of course beginner riders/green horses that have a high chance of hitting the jump aren't using them. They just have those plastic carpet spikes...not that sharp. We don't over face the horses with tall jumps with spike poles; they are simply used to make the horse a little more careful. Some horses do get lazy and need to be reminded to respect the jumps ocassionally.

My trainers have also been know to tape a row of thumbtacks to our saddle to make sure we are out of the tack enough in the air...theyare sharper than pole tacks, and I've landed on them a few times. It stings, but no lasting pain.

Nickelodian
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:39 AM
BOR couldn't have stated it better. There is a time and a place for almost all gadgets in this world. A quick fix is sometimes better than a long slow year long bad process. Many "legal" things can be abusive when used by the wrong people (double twisted wire snaffles, long sharp spurs, etc etc). Its all in the context in which the device is being used. If I have a horse that isn't naturally Rox Dene, and will sometimes get lazy with his front end, I wouldn't be opposed to using something to sharpen him up a little. Same idea as if I had a horse that was dull to my leg I would sharpen him up with a spur. Not exactly comfortable for the horse, but gets my point across quickly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

OneonOne
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AdultMedals:
My trainers have also been know to tape a row of thumbtacks to our saddle to make sure we are out of the tack enough in the air...theyare sharper than pole tacks, and I've landed on them a few times. It stings, but no lasting pain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If my trainer ever did this, it would be my last ride with her.

_____________________________________
Any coupon works! Beware of paper cuts!

Flash44
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:47 AM
I would define a successful trainer as one who can get the maximum performance out of both horse and rider without resorting to pain and abusive methods.

War Admiral
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:54 AM
Second that, Flash. Sorry y'all, you are NOT going to convince me that spike poles - plastic or not - are OK.

...And no, "GM uses them" is not an excuse.

______________

Can I show under an alter, TOO?

findeight
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:56 AM
Getting into trouble with semantics on this one.

Schooling lingo defines "spike pole" in some places as those nubby plastic carpet runners..in most cases the nubs are like bubble wrap, not sharp points. It will sting if they clobber it but won't have any effect if they are clean, which is why something like this can be effective without hurting the horse.
I have, unfortunatly, seen the real thing-nails sticking out of a strip (carpet tack strips are premade and perfect).
While the plastic nubby "spike pole" is a legitimate and humane way to OCCAISIONALLY sharpen one up, the real thing has NO place around anybody's barn..JMHO.

Overuse of even a humane technique tho, will cause it to loose effectiveness, then some feel they have to step it up.
I have never seen much use for devices and techniques that keep punishing the horse and do not reward correctness so I'm not a fan of chips in really tight boots that irritate all the time and the like.

I was taught, too, that you NEVER want anybody to see that you are having a problem and need to resort to this stuff so you NEVER do it at a show or when there are alot of people watching you...at home schooling ONLY.

Why anybody would openly advertise they need this stuff is beyond my comprehension.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Janet
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I've NEVER seen someone use nails on a pole. Plastic strips with nubs on them yes, nails no. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I HAVE seen poles with BIG nails sticking out of them. I did not see them actually being used, but they were sitting there on the jump in the ring.

At a barm managed by a trainer who has now been banned for life.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

juppy
Mar. 25, 2004, 07:04 AM
Whalo,
No, I don't you spurs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have never had to.
If you are a good trainer you do not have to cause pain to train your horse or horses. You look for a horse that has the talent to do the jumping. You can not make a horse have it.

Would you like someone to make you bloody and wounded to do a job that you may not be able to do. If yes is your answer than we can beat you everyday of your life to do it. And then you can tell me how you feel.

If the horse can not do it, then find one that can!

Flash44
Mar. 25, 2004, 07:17 AM
You know, I feel like I would be betraying my horse if I asked him to do something that I know has a high probability of causing him pain. He's taken such great care of me and trusted me even though I could tell he was apprehensive. He goes into the ring and does everything I ask of him because he knows that nothing bad will happen to him. Even if the jump looks scary, or the judge's stand, or the flapping sign in the wind. His trust in me and willingness to do what I ask is, by far, his most outstanding quality.

Flash44
Mar. 25, 2004, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
I was taught, too, that you NEVER want anybody to see that you are having a problem and need to resort to this stuff so you NEVER do it at a show or when there are alot of people watching you...at home schooling ONLY.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was taught that if you are too ashamed to do something in public, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

Freebird!
Mar. 25, 2004, 07:24 AM
As others have said, I see nothing wrong with using the blunt plastic carpet tac on a horse who is getting lazy about his legs. Of course I would try other methods first - poles before and after the jump, gymnastics, setting the horse up to jump at the base, etc - but sometimes you just need to use it. As another poster already said, I'd rather let my horse hit his legs on the carpet tack a few times, rather then repeatedly beating himself on a wooden pole. No, I wouldn't use these with beginner riders, or green horses that I wanted to build confidence on, but I do feel that they have there place. As for using whips and spurs, I think again, if used correctly they have their place. Whats that saying that saying that gun enthusiasts say? "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" Well, same thing here. I don't think it's the spurs, whips and tack poles (and by the way I don't think that metal tack tack on poles and tacks on saddles should EVER have a place in the equine world IMHO) aren't what we should be worried about. Instead we should be looking at who is using them - they can be useful tools, or abusive forms of punishment depending.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cautious Val (http://horse.classifieds.equine.com/horses/659488.html)

Delightfully Irish (http://horse.classifieds.equine.com/horses/607385.html)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

findeight
Mar. 25, 2004, 07:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AdultMedals:
My trainers have also been know to tape a row of thumbtacks to our saddle to make sure we are out of the tack enough in the air...theyare sharper than pole tacks, and I've landed on them a few times. It stings, but no lasting pain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you ride there because............. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Actually never heard of anything like this in 37 years of horse ownership..
Or it's a troll??

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

wendy
Mar. 25, 2004, 07:47 AM
I want my horse to ENJOY jumping. He clearly doesn't like to hit his legs on regular old jump poles. If he started hitting a lot of poles I would not assume he was "being lazy" and start abusing him. I'd get the trainer out to tell me what I was doing wrong, because most "hits" on poles are caused by poor riding. Then I'd get the vet out to make sure it wasn't soreness or something in the horse causing the so-called "laziness".

Tory Relic
Mar. 25, 2004, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
You know, I feel like I would be betraying my horse if I asked him to do something that I know has a high probability of causing him pain. He's taken such great care of me and trusted me even though I could tell he was apprehensive. He goes into the ring and does everything I ask of him because he knows that nothing bad will happen to him. Even if the jump looks scary, or the judge's stand, or the flapping sign in the wind. His trust in me and willingness to do what I ask is, by far, his most outstanding quality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, Flash, Amen.

BLBGP
Mar. 25, 2004, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AdultMedals:
My trainers have also been know to tape a row of thumbtacks to our saddle to make sure we are out of the tack enough in the air...theyare sharper than pole tacks, and I've landed on them a few times. It stings, but no lasting pain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does that work? Do you have to stay completely out of your saddle the entire ride? That seems ineffective. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

lauriep
Mar. 25, 2004, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freebird:
- poles before and after the jump, gymnastics, setting the horse up to jump at the base, etc - but sometimes you just need to use it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The whole idea behind a tack rail is that there is nothing different about the jumps to the horse. It looks just like the show ring. If he jumps clean, no problem. If he is lazy, he feels it. And the rider does nothing to cause this and is in no way associated with the pain in the horse's mind. Horses that have to jump a lot of jumps in their careers do get lazy and do learn "shortcuts" and most need to be reminded from time to time to maintain their best form.

Laurie

Kaedence
Mar. 25, 2004, 08:52 AM
I don't think that little numbs on a pole can hurt a horse. They numbs are actually office mats stapled upside down on the pole. If they are already hitting the poles they needs to learn to pick up their feet to insure that they won't hurt themselves by runnung into the poles. The real thing that you should be worrying about is poling. For those of you who don't know what poling is, it is when a trainer ties bamboo rods to the horses front legs. When they go over a jump the rider pulls up on the rods so the horse will jump with his legs up and square. It is illegal in the US but legal in Europe. So many nice and talented horses are ruined by poling. Spikes on the poles are nothing compared to poling!

Jumphigh83
Mar. 25, 2004, 09:02 AM
I am OUTRAGED by how some people ride...pile driving seat, anvil hands, clamped legs! And we are worried about carpet runner? Holy hey suss what are we going to be outraged by next? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com (http://www.threewindsfarmny.com)

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Tha Ridge
Mar. 25, 2004, 09:15 AM
Oh, god...if the trainers of the greatest horses in the country used all-natural methods, we wouldn't have the horses we do.

Why is everyone naive enough to believe that the best don't do things like this? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Also, "spiked" rails = office mat.

Unless you have something that knocks the crap out of every fence they jump, no pain will be inflicted.

- L.

It's all about the act right.

my buddy's blue
Mar. 25, 2004, 09:31 AM
There are always difference of opinions, this is what I try to base all of my animal related matters on, Would I want this done to me? I truthfully think that if more people sat back and thought about it alot of things would change. I am not talking about extreme measures, I going on the lines of poling a horse or drilling holes in the bottoms of walking horses feet to put ball bearings in there so the horse will snap his feet up higher. And they wonder why these horses have to have 2 to 3 people holding it while it is blindfolded just so the rider can get on. Of course that is my opinion, and I know there are people who disagree and I respect that. I am just saying that I could not and would allow anyone to do that to my horse.

ponychic3
Mar. 25, 2004, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by juppy:
Whalo,
No, I don't you spurs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have never had to.
If you are a good trainer you do not have to cause pain to train your horse or horses. You look for a horse that has the talent to do the jumping. You can not make a horse have it.

Would you like someone to make you bloody and wounded to do a job that you may not be able to do. If yes is your answer than we can beat you everyday of your life to do it. And then you can tell me how you feel.

If the horse can not do it, then find one that can!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im sorry but this is absolulty messed up, i have seen hundreds of olimpic and GP riders carry both a spur and stick i they are all great riders, and i think just stupid to brag about not using a spur and even dumber to commend it wrong.

also a horse or person was never pushed passed its limits i would never really know what it can or cannot acomplish, mabye something to think about

*~First god made man, then he though better of it and made a woman, and then he made a horse who combines the spirit and strangth of a man and the beauty and grace of a woman~*
Astound (this is my new boy that i got from OH)
Western Dance &lt;3
Lauren Bacall &lt;3 (for sale)

fleur
Mar. 25, 2004, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> For those of you who don't know what poling is, it is when a trainer ties bamboo rods to the horses front legs. When they go over a jump the rider pulls up on the rods so the horse will jump with his legs up and square. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

is it just me or is this not what poling is? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

TGFPT clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AdultMedals
Mar. 25, 2004, 09:40 AM
Sorry, didn't know the thumb tack thing would be seen as such a problem. The thumbtacks were only put on for the jumping part of the lesson. My trainer used it with a few of us. Only for one lesson. My problem was that I was touching the saddle during part of the jump, however, I didn't feel myself do it, so I couldn't really fix what I was doing. It was fine when my trainer was commenting on my position the entire time, but I would still touch the saddle when I wasn't getting feedback. The tacks just let me notice when I touched the saddle. I should have clarified this in my first post. The tacks were used when jumping through gymnastics back when I was doing Childrens Hunters. I only needed it for one lesson, and it helped me figure out that I was brushing my saddle and I was able to fix my position. It wasn't like my trainer forced me to use tacks, she just brought it up in a lesson, and I knew other people at my barn who had used them. Thumb tacks were only used on riders advanced enough to stay in their half seat and who would have little chance of slamming down on their saddles at any point. It is difficult to describe without making it sounds bad, but it really helped me realize a mistake I was making and learn to fix it.

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 25, 2004, 09:40 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tha Ridge:
Horses get lazy, some just for the heck of it...how wrong is it for them to get a reminder once in awhile?

I've been with a trainer who use(s/d) them and believe me, I didn't leave her because of that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[QUOTE]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? "How wrong is it?" Maybe it's just me, but i tink it is very wrong to subject an ANIMAL to anything painful...and especially just so that a HUMAN can win a fricking ribbon! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Medievalist
Mar. 25, 2004, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fleur:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> For those of you who don't know what poling is, it is when a trainer ties bamboo rods to the horses front legs. When they go over a jump the rider pulls up on the rods so the horse will jump with his legs up and square. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

is it just me or is this not what poling is? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

_TGFPT clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Kaedence you don't know what poling is. I don't know many horses that would be physically able to jump while having a pole tied to them.

Poling is legal in the US and Europe. Why wouldn't it be http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif It may not be a method some people agree with, but there are trainers that use both poling and tack rails to great effect. I've always only seen tack rails made just with the inverted office mats wrapped around them, even at an Olympic medalist's place, they were used to sharpen up some of the horses.

I've never seen tack rails with actual nails in them, although I'm sure it has been tried by some of the less reputable people out there.

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 25, 2004, 09:43 AM
kaedence--are you sure that's what poling is? I'm with fleur, if that's what poling is, then I'm going to do what i though poling was in the schooling area before I go in to jump. it's not that, so it's not illegal. I'll never have a rail down again! thanks for the tip!

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 25, 2004, 09:45 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blondie22:
spiked poles. They're no big deal. As previously said, they are just plastic and inflict no visible wound to the horse. [QUOTE]

So as long as there is no visible "evidence" it's ok?

Please tell me you guys are kidding about this!

Tiramit
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AdultMedals:
My trainers have also been know to tape a row of thumbtacks to our saddle to make sure we are out of the tack enough in the air...theyare sharper than pole tacks, and I've landed on them a few times. It stings, but no lasting pain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you ride there because............. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Actually never heard of anything like this in 37 years of horse ownership..
Or it's a troll??

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually had a coach who tried that one with me as well about 10 years ago. On a green track horse. I obviously don't ride with her anymore, but she did do that to me and other students - and many other things. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

lamealterego
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:19 AM
Fortunately my horse gets very pissed off at himself whenever he even bumps a rail, so I don't have to worry about these things! Heck if I tried these methods I'd be on my a$$!

I think that poling is when a horse jumps a jump, someone on the ground knocks either his front end or his back end or both with a bamboo rod. It stings them so it is supposed to make them more careful. Am I right?

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:21 AM
lame: that is my understanding of poling also.

Lisa Cook
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:22 AM
For those of you so outraged...have you actually SEEN the "spike poles" in question? As others have mentioned, it is little plastic bumps wrapped around the pole. Calling them "spikes" is a bit extravagent, actually. I've schooled over them and don't have an issue with them.

Personally, I don't see any difference in texture between the little plastic nubs wrapped around a pole and jumping a log covered in rough tree bark.

Silly Mommy
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:24 AM
This is pretty funny...

Keep it up!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Mandarin wouldn't jump a jump in the schooling area if there was someone standing next to it. Hmmm, wonder why? For a horse as neat and crafty and CLEAN JUMPING, I always wondered why someone felt the need to whack him. That being said, I agree with BOR's first post.

Oh, and I worked for a trainer who had us put the sharp carpet strips on rails for his GP horse to school - I was a bloody mess at the end - THOSE are BAD!!!

Oh, and I wear spurs on every horse I ride - no matTer what - doesn't mean I ever use em. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem.

www.wolfdenfarm.org (http://www.wolfdenfarm.org)

lamealterego
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we need to keep that in mind more often on this bulletin board, as there seems to be many people here who love to start drama and then run around going 'look what I did!'

Sparky22
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by juppy:
Whalo,
No, I don't you spurs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have never had to.
If you are a good trainer you do not have to cause pain to train your horse or horses. You look for a horse that has the talent to do the jumping. You can not make a horse have it.

Would you like someone to make you bloody and wounded to do a job that you may not be able to do. If yes is your answer than we can beat you everyday of your life to do it. And then you can tell me how you feel.

If the horse can not do it, then find one that can!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never made a horse bloody with spurs - MOST people have not ever made bloody marks.

You go ahead and canter up to a grand prix size fence without spurs or a stick with a lazy horse who decides to spook at it. Or jump into a big triple that's a short to a long distance with big spreads without any extra aids. Best of luck with that and I'd hate to see a rail come out of that and have your entry fee blown.

I had a horse that hated to be kicked. If you kicked him without spurs he would buck you off. If you touched him with the spur he would just go forward (and quite happilly at that). And good luck riding him around a sizable course without a pair of spurs or a tap off the ground to get his ADD mind back on track.

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

lmlacross
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:29 AM
As posted by Box of Rox:

"If a short, to the point poling session before you go to a show keeps the horse from coming back with sore shins, and honestly, keeps you from paying for him to go in and 8fault his way around a course, fine."

-------------

Sorry, but I disagree. While I'm hardly as astonished as our original poster was to find "spike poles" (here we're talking carpet tacks, not office mats) in use, I don't think it should be necessary. Also, I hardly think I qualify as a granola-munching, Shrake Resistance Free- touting ineffective holistic pleasure horseman because I prefer not to cane and tack-pole my jumper.

I agree with BOR that everyone draws their own line, but, I must say-- for every poster who thinks any trainer worth her/his salt must use these methods in order to efficiently produce results, I can attest to having ridden with several who didn't.

Say what you like-- it's a shortcut that's far from pleasant for the horse and far from necessary, something I certainly don't consider comparable to a pair prince of wales spur used correctly. How about asking some questions with gymnastics, asking our horses to sharpen up that way?

IMO, this is done in an effort to produce immediate results, rather than encouraging the same using different methods over time. Justifying the practice with this Veruca Salt "I want it now" mentality is really the root of this, and so many other contemporary issues. If your horse isn't capable of making it around at a given height without accruing eight faults (and you're giving him a perfect ride), perhaps he ought to be moved down- either until he's performing consistently enough at home to justify the entry fees, or until it's clear that he's not a contender at that height.

If the latter is the case, it's at this point that you either ride your horse where he's most competitive or sell him to an owner whose skills better match up with his ability, and move on to a scopier horse.

A horse should hardly have to rap against a tack-pole as a result of his owner nominating him for a class he's not yet ready to truly "compete" in.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

[This message was edited by lmlacross on Mar. 25, 2004 at 01:42 PM.]

tidy rabbit
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:31 AM
Yes, lamealterego you're right. I think, and I don't say things like this often here, that the people who are against these actions (poling and tacks) don't understand what they are talking about.

I'm surprised that some people even sit on a horse as that could very easily be construed as painful to the horse, especially when a novice rider is on board.

There is a HUGE difference between performance horses and pleasure horses. I would never consider leaving my horses outside in 90 degee heat all day to stand in the sun and cook with the bugs in a herd of horses where they could be bitten and kicked and yet I don't go around slamming people for doing that. Or the fact that so many pleasure riders show up once a week or less to ride the poor creature for 2 hours at a time when it's not fit. How painful is that for the horse? These are not my interests and I do not see any reason to try to lecture people about their practices good or bad.

With all this said, I try to choose horses who are careful and scopey enough not to need poling. However, I'm not paying 900 dollars for 2 minutes of fun either. I would not rule out some tactical schooling before a big show where so much money is on the line and I was riding an older, seasoned horse who might not be very impressed by 5' high jumps any more.

~~Every year the senseless slaughtering of millions just for their hides. Poor little Nagas.~~

"I admitted to myself and to god that I am powerless over COTHBB" - anonymous.

winter
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:33 AM
To me the issue here is not about cruelty or abuse or about performance. Office matts are not likely to cause alot of serious pain or damage to a horse, probably alot less stress than I caused my horse last time she was rude with her feet or head.

To me the issue is fairness. I expect to build a parnership with my horse, I expect her to trust me and follow my instruction because she knows they will not do her harm. I expect her to behave and be safe, and to work hard.

Riding her to a purposefully poor distance so that she deliberately hits a pole seems unfair, and in my mind could deteriorate our relaionship to a point where she would either start stopping or turn into a beligerent horse who is hard to control. She followed my instructions and they put her in and unconfortable situation, this seems unfair.

On the issue of rapping or polling, to me this terminology refers to the practice of having someone at the fence lift a bamboo pole that lays on the regular rail as the horse is jumping it so they get a smart craack on the shins. To me this is the ultimate in unfair. The horse gave the effort to clear the obstacle it saw and you presented it to. To have that obstable change without warning and to have the effort the horse thought was sufficient not be...well to me it's just rude and a betrayal of your partnership. Yeah, it might work, but then again, it might make an otherwise confident horse pretty fearful of fences.

So if you want to put plastic tacs on a fence if your horse is being lazy and ride it to those fences like you normally would then really it's no ones' business how you chose to train your horse. But when a practice jeopardises your relatiship with your horse, IMHO and his trust in you then I think in the end it doesn't really improve your performance at all.

jumper11
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:37 AM
I haven't shown for a couple years but Im pretty sure any type of poling is NOT legal in the warmup rings... I can definately recall trainers getting in trouble for that. No Kadence, that is not poling, that's got to be a joke. Trainers use different types of poling techniques, I've seen the plastic spikey mats wrapped around the poles, and as long as your horse is not overfaced with the jump I do not think it is abusive. I've seen trainers stand by the jumps and mid jump, bump the horses front legs with the top rail, I think this is a stupid method as it can cause a horse to flip. I've also seen off-sets used with a metal pole or bamboo, they are usually set about a foot off the front rail and cause the horse to snap their front end early. I think this is dangerous too because the horse can take the pole with them. The best method for poling, if you're going to do it, is with a bamboo pole (at home) with your trainer, they will rap the horses front end lightly as its front end comes up, mid jump. Nails, tacks and any other devices are illegal, as they should be!!!

Ride'emCO
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
I was taught, too, that you NEVER want anybody to see that you are having a problem and need to resort to this stuff so you NEVER do it at a show or when there are alot of people watching you...at home schooling ONLY.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was taught that if you are too ashamed to do something in public, you probably shouldn't be doing it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Flash!!! Would any of you use this sort of "Training Technique" on a child? Because that's what my horse is to me, he's my baby. Yes, I have been competitive in the past, and yes, I will be competitive with this horse, IF he and I are both having fun. Otherwise, what's the freakin' point?

If you must choose between two evils, choose the one that you've
never tried before.

RugBug
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AdultMedals:
My trainers have also been know to tape a row of thumbtacks to our saddle to make sure we are out of the tack enough in the air...theyare sharper than pole tacks, and I've landed on them a few times. It stings, but no lasting pain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you ride there because............. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Actually never heard of anything like this in 37 years of horse ownership..
Or it's a troll??

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tacks on the seat of your saddle is a pretty old trick. It just makes you aware of staying of your saddle.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

MandyVA
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:40 AM
"I think that poling is when a horse jumps a jump, someone on the ground knocks either his front end or his back end or both with a bamboo rod. It stings them so it is supposed to make them more careful. Am I right?"

Isn't that caning? Remember when GM had a horse die in a schooling session because it jumped a fence with a thin metal pole on top, ran into the pole, broke it in half, impaled itself and bled to death? I think that is poling--placing a thin pole on the top of the jump that makes a distinctive "ping" when the horse hits it and reminds it to pick up its feet. And "poling" is illegal in some states.

"No other relationship between humans and animals is as close as when one is riding a horse." --Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky22:
Best of luck with that and I'd hate to see a rail come out of that and have your entry fee blown.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely that was not a serious comment? Now that I think about it, perhaps this thread WAS started just to stir the pot.....and I fell hook, line & sinker...

jumper11
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by juppy:
Whalo,
No, I don't you spurs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have never had to.
If you are a good trainer you do not have to cause pain to train your horse or horses. You look for a horse that has the talent to do the jumping. You can not make a horse have it.

Would you like someone to make you bloody and wounded to do a job that you may not be able to do. If yes is your answer than we can beat you everyday of your life to do it. And then you can tell me how you feel.

If the horse can not do it, then find one that can!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never made a horse bloody with spurs - MOST people have not ever made bloody marks.

You go ahead and canter up to a grand prix size fence without spurs or a stick with a lazy horse who decides to spook at it. Or jump into a big triple that's a short to a long distance with big spreads without any extra aids. Best of luck with that and I'd hate to see a rail come out of that and have your entry fee blown.

I had a horse that hated to be kicked. If you kicked him without spurs he would buck you off. If you touched him with the spur he would just go forward (and quite happilly at that). And good luck riding him around a sizable course without a pair of spurs or a tap off the ground to get his ADD mind back on track.

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excellent point... Spurs and whips are training tools, and should not be used for purposes of punishing a horse. When you train a horse to respond to your aids, there is not a problem with them accepting those tools. Its the people that do not train their horses to properly accept those tools, who shouldn't use them. So if you do not need them, then you probably have no idea how to use them, and so you shouldn't.

Medievalist
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silly Mommy:
This is pretty funny...

Keep it up!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Mandarin wouldn't jump a jump in the schooling area if there was someone standing next to it. Hmmm, wonder why? For a horse as neat and crafty and CLEAN JUMPING, I always wondered why someone felt the need to whack him. That being said, I agree with BOR's first post.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My horse is the same way. He never touches rails either....I've wondered why they bothered. We were once trotting a rail on the ground and my trainer kicked it by accident. My horse jumped a foot higher over the jumps for a week http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

However, there are horses that jump like crap who need to jump clean to earn their keep. When riding is a business and not a hobby, sometimes poling and tack rails are useful. I have a friend with a big, strong horse that would knock down half the jumps on a course unless he was poled the day before at home. Then he would go and win. I have another friend who had a beautiful stud horse with terrific jumping bloodlines who knocked down everything on the course no matter what, so he sold him as an uber-fancy dressage horse. It goes to show that these are tools, but not an end to it all, and it should only be done by someone knowledgable in the methods.

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

Sparky22
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:48 AM
seahorsefarms - What's so bad about that comment? The entry fees for upper-level jumper classes are EXTREMELY expensive. Why not have a backup? It's reinforcement of aids, not beating the tar out of your horse.

Certainly, as someone who rides other people's horses, I do not want to walk in the ring without some sort of back-up aid if I think the horse may need it. I certainly don't want them to lose that entry money over a rail that was probably preventable.

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

jumper11
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:49 AM
Many horses who have the scope to jump the bigger fences but are stuck at a lower level with either an amatuer or a junior rider get bored with the smaller fences. While many times this is helped by the trainer schooling the horse, poling can also help to sharpen them up a bit so their owner can race the horse around a 3'6 course cleanly. Its a short cut, but there ya go, the horse business in a nut shell.

dogchushu
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kaedence:
.. For those of you who don't know what poling is, it is when a trainer ties bamboo rods to the horses front legs. When they go over a jump the rider pulls up on the rods so the horse will jump with his legs up and square.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait--you can pull your horse's legs up using bamboo poles? And here I thought I should just jump waaaay ahead while throwing the reins at my horsie! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(Just kidding you Kaedence, I'm sure that was a typo--but it's a pretty funny one!)



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 25, 2004, 10:54 AM
Sparky22: I guess it is a difference of opinion...I no longer show and riding is not a "business" to me...purely pleasure these days...so perhaps I am looking at it from a different point of view. However, when I did show I never poled or caned my horse...didn't need to as he was well trained and I kept him @ 3'6", where he was competent.

tidy rabbit
Mar. 25, 2004, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumper11:
Many horses who have the scope to jump the bigger fences but are stuck at a lower level with either an amatuer or a junior rider get bored with the smaller fences. While many times this is helped by the trainer schooling the horse, poling can also help to sharpen them up a bit so their owner can race the horse around a 3'6 course cleanly. Its a short cut, but there ya go, the horse business in a nut shell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, I don't think poling an amatuer's horse is the right thing to do. And certainly poling a horse for the 3'6 is inappropriate as well.

~~Every year the senseless slaughtering of millions just for their hides. Poor little Nagas.~~

"I admitted to myself and to god that I am powerless over COTHBB" - anonymous.

Sparky22
Mar. 25, 2004, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorsefarms:
Sparky22: I guess it is a difference of opinion...I no longer show and riding is not a "business" to me...purely pleasure these days...so perhaps I am looking at it from a different point of view. However, when I did show I never poled or caned my horse...didn't need to as he was well trained and I kept him @ 3'6", where he was competent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seahorse -

I never mentioned poling or caning in any of my posts. I was only refering to the use of spurs or a stick.

I too ride for pleasure -- to me that's what riding is all about. I grew up riding everyone else's horses because I could not afford one. In my years riding I have never done anything to jeopardize a horse and anyone who knows me will tell you that I would never do anything that would harm a horse either physically or mentally by hurting his confidence.

Even as a kid I would make my opinion known with the owners I rode for that I would not school more than necessary at home, the horses would not show more than they needed to and I would not push their horse beyond what I knew the horse to be comfortable mentally or physically.

I feel like you took my post completely out into a whole other argument but also realize that it's easy to do when you are already in heated debate http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

CoolMeadows
Mar. 25, 2004, 11:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MandyVA:
"I think that poling is when a horse jumps a jump, someone on the ground knocks either his front end or his back end or both with a bamboo rod. It stings them so it is supposed to make them more careful. Am I right?"

Isn't that caning? Remember when GM had a horse die in a schooling session because it jumped a fence with a thin metal pole on top, ran into the pole, broke it in half, impaled itself and bled to death? I think that is poling--placing a thin pole on the top of the jump that makes a distinctive "ping" when the horse hits it and reminds it to pick up its feet. And "poling" is illegal in some states.

"No other relationship between humans and animals is as close as when one is riding a horse." --Justice Sandra Day O'Connor<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Poling is definitely when someone stands on the ground and taps the horse's hooves as it goes over. People who have a lot of experience doing this can tap the front and hind hooves in one jump.

Offsets consist of a bamboo pole set in front of the jump and a few inches higher than the jump.

I don't know what it's called if you have a bamboo or metal pole directly over the jump. A metal pole anywhere would freak me out.

They all fall under the "tune up" category and are common occurances whether everyone agrees with them or not.

And you can definitely tell whose horse has been poled when they jump the top of the standards when someone is standing next to the jump. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Egioja
Mar. 25, 2004, 11:15 AM
I agree that the main issue here is a lack of understanding. If someone says their trainer uses the office mats (IMO anything else is abuseve), that does not mean they are stapled to every rail, and used on every horse every day.
Ussually there is one rail set aside with the mat on it, and if a horse is being particularly lazy that day, that pole replaces another at some fence, and when the horse is going around knocking stuff down, at one fence it gets a bit more of a smart-and it figures it out really quick.
I have ridden with a trainer that did just that, and that pole was very rarely used, and when it was it was only once, maybe twice on a horse that was just hitting everything. They would have never dreamed about using them with my mare, although Odin saw them once. The trainers always looked for something phyisical first and all-but in reality, the mat came in handy every now and then (we're talking used less then once/month-and ussually it was in the ring (on the ground) for a day or two, and we wouldn't see it again for a long time).
It's all about moderation, and understanding.

http://groups.msn.com/BAENAddicts/lizsherd.msnw?albumlist=2
"Don't view it as a problem, see it as an oppurtunity for a solution."

jumper11
Mar. 25, 2004, 11:24 AM
I think its probably done as much in the hunters as it is in the jumpers, where the fences are 4foot or lower. I don't think its inappropriate, its been done for years, and is not abusive when done in moderation and correctly.That being said I don't do it, but I understand why some trainers do. Im simply stating from the trainers perspective, if they want to keep their clients' happy and the horse isn't jumping as tidy as he should, they often pole the horse. Is it always done correctly and in moderation? NO. I wouldn't do it to overface my horse, if he can't comfortably jump 4'6 Im not going to try to force him to do it by poling him. If he can easily jump 5' and is being lazy over 3'6 and is a confident, maybe a little bit lazy of a horse, I would possibly consider it. Or he's a hunter that never jumps over 3' and is getting lazy with his front end, or dropping one leg over the jumps, and he's not a stopper, I might do it then as well. Im not necessarily condoning poling, just trying to put it in perspective. I am not a trainer, so its all relative, Im simply throwing it out there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MIKES MCS
Mar. 25, 2004, 11:24 AM
Does anyone remember a book written by a famous BNT (who I will not name) in the late 60's early 70's on the proper use of tack poles? This was at one time, (a long time ago) quite legal. Poling with a bamboo pole was an accepted practice in the schooling ring also , The object was no to hit the legs it was to aim for and hopefully connect with the hooves, It was most used right before a rub class. Usually only one or two times over a fence no more. You were supposed to simulate a horse hitting a pole but the object was that the pole was noisey too, not nessasarily to cause pain. Anyway tack poles were just as much as controversy then as now except back then they used real tacks. While we did employee poling back then we thought of tack poles as cruel and unusual punishment. The fact that they have changed to plastic and or rubber mats doesn't change the purpose, which is primarily to inflict pain.

bigbay
Mar. 25, 2004, 11:40 AM
Some horses will jump out of their skin every time, and some horses get complacent about jumping as time goes on. When one of mine gets complacent, I take him out to the cross-country course and we school over all the solid logs we can find with bark still on them. A CC school also has the added benefit of blowing the cobwebs out of both of our brains. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif A few rubs on those solid logs and a few gallops to get the blood pumping, and my horses are jumping out of their skins again, and it carries over into the show ring. I do this a couple times a year, maybe.

But, that said, they're my own horses and I have the luxury of doing that with them if I want. They're not serveral hundred-thousand dollar beasts that someone else has entrusted to my training and care, who would sue me if I took the horse out CC and it bowed a tendon or popped a splint. So while I would never use a nubby pole, in some ways it's just that trainer's equivalent of bark on a log. I feel pretty bad that those horses can't get their tune-up while out enjoying a nice gallop and getting a mental break, but, as someone else pointed out, that's the show business for ya.

"It is good to be fine."

CoolMeadows
Mar. 25, 2004, 11:45 AM
Lol, agreed bigbay! Nothing like a XC school to brighten one up that's gotten dull.
And it's fun too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sam Iam
Mar. 25, 2004, 12:07 PM
Winter, I am in total agreement with your post. I have actually seen a horse poled (I'm talking people holding the bamboo deal here, not the spiked poles thing)in the schooling area of a horse show. It was a hundred years ago and I can't recall if I was at an A or B show. There were many people around to witness this, so it either must have been "legal" at the time or the polers just didn't give a damm. At any rate, I remember asking my trainer about it (I was a naive pre-teen at the time), it wasn't something she did or I had ever seen before. She explained to me the reasons why people did it and why she herself didn't engage in this practice. God bless her, she was so good and patient with kids.

Anyway, I came away with the same feeling you did, Winter. Why would a horse ever jump another fence again after being whacked in the knees, hooves whatever by a seemingly non-moving obstacle? I can tell you this much, if you whacked me in the shins while I was trying to jump something, it wouldn't make me jump higher next time, it would make me never jump again. I'm surprised this practice doesn't make more stoppers than it does. I guess it is a testament to the spirit of the horse...he jsut keeps trying so hard to please the people around him despite the fact that they're whacking him. In closing, I agree with Winter, I think this violates trust.

Auburn
Mar. 25, 2004, 12:13 PM
I have seen tack rails built and used. Three to four rows of nails would be hammered into a regular wooden pole. This pole would be placed on a jump, during schooling.

The horse would often come back from his ride with thin scrapes on the front of his legs and blood running down his hooves. So, don't tell me that I know nothing of what I speak, because I do.

A long time ago, I had a Tennessee Walking Horse trainer tell me, "A little blood makes a good walking horse!".

I deplored the thought of such mistreatment of an animal, then, and I still do today. Say what you will about "needing an extra aide", it is still unfair to your horse! A spur, crop and a martingale are your "artificial aides", not nails.

This is just business, you say? We have to have an edge, so that we can win the big bucks, you say? Horses are just a commodity, you say? Wrong! They are living, breathing creatures of this earth, just like you are.

By the way, if you are so certain that it doesn't hurt, go put on a pair of shorts and start jumping those rails yourselves. Keep putting them up higher and higher. Get a rub or two, then come back and tell us how it doesn't hurt. AUBURN

jumper11
Mar. 25, 2004, 12:28 PM
Just wanted to clarify, ^^ it sounds like you were referring to one of my posts, but totally misinterpreted what I wrote (if that's the case). I said spurs and a crop are tools to help aid in the training of a horse, not poling. Yes I know horses are living breathing creatures, thanks, what I was referring to is the business. If clients had a better understanding on why trainers do what they do to get results, things like poling might not be so prevelant. When a client wants to win and threatens to leave a trainer if their horse doesn't start winning, damn straight that trainer is going to do whatever it takes to make said client happy. That is the nature of the business. In a perfect world none of that would exist, however the horse world is far from perfect.

lauriep
Mar. 25, 2004, 12:37 PM
Mike, I believe the book was "Showing Your Horse", by Harlan Abby, and the section you are referring to was the section on Rodney. It also shows a tack rail, with REAL nails driven in and the heads cut off them; not even carpet tacks. 20 years ago, this was all acceptable. And carpet tacks don't do much more than the plastic nubs, as long as you jump the fence in the direction they are slanted. If you jump them AGAINST the way they slant, you can tear one up pretty good.

People, a horse ridden well to a rail with tacks/nubs on it that then insists on rubbing that rail is only teaching himself to be more careful. You don't ride them to a bad spot with this method; you WANT them to figure it out for themselves. It is highly effective, and doesn't in any way create a fearful horse.

Poling (I've never heard it called "caning"; that is beating a human with a bamboo cane), can be effective, but a smart horse figures out pretty quickly what that is about, so its use is much less productive. Jumping an offset, properly set, is also effective and a person doesn't have to be close to the jump.

Horses are a business, a BIG business, to most trainers/riders who are professionals. They are not pets, and are very well cared for in most cases. But they ARE expected to do their job, and if a reminder is necessary, so be it.

Balbuco was famous as one who had to feel his way around the jumps, and not because he didn't have the talent/scope to do it. We never found out how big he could jump. But a session with the tacks before a big GP was very helpful, and if the timing was right and the stars all aligned properly, he just might remember it long enough to win the class.

None of these are cruel practices in the right hands.

Think I'll go get the book and post the pics for you!

Oh, and perfect poling means you connect with the pastern, not the hooves, and preferably the coronet band.

Laurie

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 25, 2004, 12:38 PM
lmlacross--i'm not sure if i wrote (or you read) clearly enough. the poling comment was independent of the wrapped pole comment, which was independent of the naily-spiked-pole comment. I see nothing wrong with legal-area (ie personal, non show property) done right (not too much, only when needed, and to the point.) I see nothing wrong with knowing how to use a nubbed pole, or having one, or using one if you need to. I see a lot wrong with spiked poles, and anyone who poles with a spike pole a) doesn't know how to pole, as they should be aiming for the hooves, and b) is, imho, taking two not-for-idiot practices and being an abusive idiot

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 25, 2004, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumper11:
the business. If clients had a better understanding on why trainers do what they do to get results, things like poling might not be so prevelant. When a client wants to win and threatens to leave a trainer if their horse doesn't start winning, damn straight that trainer is going to do whatever it takes to make said client happy. That is the nature of the business. In a perfect world none of that would exist, however the horse world is far from perfect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and that "nature" is what i have a problem with...yet there is nothing I can do about it.

Sparky22: Sorry - you're right - I got carried away and confused.

[This message was edited by seahorsefarms on Mar. 25, 2004 at 03:50 PM.]

War Admiral
Mar. 25, 2004, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Oh, and perfect poling means you connect with the pastern, not the hooves, and preferably the coronet band. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...Well, don't ANYBODY EVER come whining to me that your ohhhh-so-expensive-and-valuable horses end up at feedlot auctions with ringbone, then! I will sooooooo totally NOT want to hear it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Edited to hopefully clarify what I meant to say - I most certainly did not mean to accuse Lauriep of being a whiner!! Sorry Lauriep.]
______________

Can I show under an alter, TOO?

[This message was edited by War Admiral on Mar. 25, 2004 at 08:43 PM.]

lauriep
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:08 PM
I have no earthly idea what you are referring to, WA. I don't make it a practice to whine here.

And, I don't think ringbone is caused by poling...

Laurie

[This message was edited by lauriep on Mar. 25, 2004 at 04:19 PM.]

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:09 PM
Anyone ever wonder how the horses feel about being used as a business commodity? I'll bet they don't much care for it.

*Next*Star*To*Shine*
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:11 PM
I didn't read all of the other posts yet, but someone I know who works for a BNR has told me it's quite common with BNR's and BNT's to scare the horses from touching a rail with pain. She told me about the spikes put on poles; using bamboo poles so the horse jumps, doesn't see it and so hits himself; putting acid on the poles so that the horse will be hurt if he touches it; putting sharp objects in boots; etc. IMO it's all pretty disgusting.

[This message was edited by *Next*Star*To*Shine* on Mar. 25, 2004 at 04:20 PM.]

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:23 PM
Well, the "master" has now lost my respect...thanks, lauriep.

suecoo
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:30 PM
I think this practice $%^&, and anyone who would deliberately inflict pain on a horse just to get it to jump better %^&*()too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

SueCoo & the Redhead (a/k/a "Atlanta")
Life without horses is possible, but pointless......

Medievalist
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:32 PM
I think you missed page 2, laurie. There are 2 page 3s....unless you meant to do that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's interesting. Thanks for posting it. It shows the changing times.

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

MIKES MCS
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:38 PM
"Oh, and perfect poling means you connect with the pastern, not the hooves, and preferably the coronet band"

You are correct, I was a little too general in saying the hoof area.. I became quite good at this at 11 years old and was shown how by a master. But I still say it was also the noise of the bamboo cracking below them that assisted in achieving the desired result. But I was never told to hit a horse in the legs as someone else mentioned and that was why I brought up the hoof target. Anyway I didn't mention names because I didn't want to stir this pot anymore then it already has been whipped up, I didn't think there was anyone as old as me who'd remember this book on this board... LOL

By the way at 11 years old I was told (by very important trainers) this didn't hurt the horse anymore then smacking him with a crop on the rump.. Now, would I do this today , the answer is simply NO.

[This message was edited by MIKES MCS on Mar. 25, 2004 at 04:46 PM.]

lauriep
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:39 PM
I will repost the link after I get stupid Webshots to stop posting the duplicate picture I posted. There should be three consecutive pages, and I have fixed the problem three times through my photos, but the public version is still wrong. I have even deleted the album entirely and started over, but that didn't help. I'll get back to ya...

Mike, I'm probably older! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Laurie

BigBlue
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:39 PM
I don't use this method, nor does anyone I have ever ridden with, but for the purpose of education- where should the pole make contact with a horse during poling? I've heard differnt places, but am confused as to which is the most commonly used one.

TK
Proud owner of a jump crazy horse with an attitude problem
*member of the blonde riders clique*

America's Pride
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:45 PM
My current trainer does not do anything to hurt our horse and I am glad, she is all the way to the other end, minor hithc, got off and scratch. I did ride with someone once known to do this and rug horse. The very first horseshow I went to with said trianer, he/she tried to drug my horse without telling me before hand, I get there and there this trainer is with a syringe and something I do not know ready to inject my horse. That was the last I dealed with that person.

lauriep
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:57 PM
OK, Webshots experts! Through my side of the site, I have deleted the problem album, "Sharpening them up" completely. I then created a NEW album with the correct pictures in the correct order, and called it "Pictures of sharpening them up." On my side, that is the only album with these pictures.

HOWEVER, when I log out and go in through the public side, search for me and get the list of my albums, the old album is still there, and there is no sign of the new one that I just made. I even rebooted my computer to see if that would help - nope.

Any suggestions??

Laurie

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 25, 2004, 01:58 PM
as for where to correctly pole: it really depends on the horse TO AN EXTENT. I've only seen it used twice, and once was with a horse who dropped a toe occasionally, and that was going for the toe, and another was were the horse persistenly would go around rubbing jumps, and that was a little higher up. however, I wasn't actually "taught" to pole, and i'd never do it myself, but from what I heard it's dangerous to do it farther up the leg.

my horse can drop a toe occasionally, and we have a video of him when he was younger and he's always done it, and you can tell that he had a few too many poling sessions because he sucks off the jumps if someone is too close. I don't advocate poling, because most people don't know how to do it (including me), but even I know that you're just asking for trouble if you pole a horse often enough that they start expecting it.

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

SunshineGA
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by juppy:
Whalo,
No, I don't you spurs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have never had to.
If you are a good trainer you do not have to cause pain to train your horse or horses. You look for a horse that has the talent to do the jumping. You can not make a horse have it.

Would you like someone to make you bloody and wounded to do a job that you may not be able to do. If yes is your answer than we can beat you everyday of your life to do it. And then you can tell me how you feel.

If the horse can not do it, then find one that can!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What if the horse can do it, has the talent, yet doesn't use it or know it yet?

Haven't even gotten through the whole thread yet... &lt;sigh&gt;... but have seen the nubby plastic things used plenty of times by horses who are very talented (ie- a GP horse) that just needs a little fine tuning.

Member of the IHSA clique

http://community.webshots.com/user/sunshinengcsu

jumper11
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorsefarms:
Anyone ever wonder how the horses feel about being used as a business commodity? I'll bet they don't much care for it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes and I'm sure its been said before, that people who are in the business (professionally) whether it is your farrier, vet, trainer, groom, etc. have their career because of the horses. So while they may not ALL see horses as a commodity only, I will guarantee that many do, and they also see the horses value. Many people in the business do not have the luxury to own horses as pets, and buy, sell and train them for money. So if horses were not a commodity, then there would be an awful lot of horses without jobs for us to find homes for.

juppy
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:20 PM
Okay, let me clear up somethings. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif No I do not wear spurs that is my peresonal choice. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I didn't mean anything about spurs in my last post. I was asked if I wore spurs and answered no. As far as the bloody statement it was referring to the tack rails not to spurs. I have never seen anyone use spurs to that measure and hope that I don't. I may just beat you and hold you down for your horse to stand on you.

juppy
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:22 PM
Oh by the way. I am not worried about entery fees if that was the case I wouldn't show at all.

Flash44
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:24 PM
Anyone brave enough to mention pole launchers?

mst
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:26 PM
how do you think 99% of open jumpers go to the ring and jump clear?

poltroon
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:27 PM
Poling is like the use of draw reins - when used judiciously, and very carefully, can be valuable, but misused 99% of the time.

In addition to annoying side effects like injuring the legs, there's also the very real and performance-degrading possibility of teaching the horse to stop.

Now, I don't know about you, but I'm not sure I'd want to be the rider on an athletic horse that's decided to stop at a tack rail. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

bigbay
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
Anyone brave enough to mention pole launchers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are those like salad shooters?

"It is good to be fine."

Sparky22
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bigbay:


Are those like salad shooters?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

Freebird!
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:49 PM
Are you referring to the machine that mechanicaly lifts the pole when the horse jumps over the jump? If so, I know of several BNT's that use them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cautious Val (http://horse.classifieds.equine.com/horses/659488.html)

Delightfully Irish (http://horse.classifieds.equine.com/horses/607385.html)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CBoylen
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
Anyone brave enough to mention pole launchers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I think that's my cue http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
Frankly, I've been ignoring this thread, because no one is going to change anyone's mind about anything. In my opinion, nubby rails, tack rails, offsets, and poling are all processes that can be unharmful and useful if used sparingly and properly (ie in the way described by LaurieP in her post a few pages ago). However, some people are dumb, and can manage to use just about anything improperly, or just can't help themselves from overusing any kind of training method. Unfortunately, there are lots more stupid people than there are knowledgeable ones.

Now, having said that, the pole launcher (or for that matter, any sort of swinging rail as well) is something that I haven't seen ANYONE be able to use properly. However, I've never seen any horse or human harmed in the process, unless you count the fact that everyone involved tends to look stupid, and absolutely nothing of value is accomplished.

I also had a good laugh over the poster that though a bamboo was rider-operated http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

To sum it up, train your horses as you see fit. If you dislike a trainer's methods, don't train with them. Your horse is your business, but you have to allow others the same courtesy.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

lmlacross
Mar. 25, 2004, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mst:
how do you think 99% of open jumpers go to the ring and jump clear?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Call me naive, but I'd like to think a lot of it has to do with talent and scope? Tack rails are a tool (good or bad) used to sharpen them up, but no number of well-timed tack-rail reminder sesions would turn my horse into a clean jumper at 5+ feet.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

dab
Mar. 25, 2004, 03:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mst:
how do you think 99% of open jumpers go to the ring and jump clear?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I may be a bit naive, but I think most (&gt;50%, not nearly 99%) are occassionally tuned by being put to a tight spot --

CoolMeadows
Mar. 25, 2004, 03:40 PM
I'll call you naive, then! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
It does have to do with talent, scope and training. But yes, the majority I've seen anyway receive some type of tuning sessions from time to time.

When I was a naive junior (seems like 5,000 years ago), I would always walk my horse around the show grounds a lot and take him to watch some classes too. I still do, and he loves to watch other horses jump. I was standing with him in the coliseum one morning when a trainer approached me about some horses he had for sale. My trainer (dirtbag,lol) at the time knew this guy and we arranged a trip to see some of the horses at his place.

We got there and everywhere you looked, there were tack rails, bell boots with ball bearings in the coronet area, caustic agents, hot wire, all kinds of interesting things. The guy even told me about his most intense "tune up" program. Jump chute (with rider), tack rails and a pellet gun. (I've heard a biiiig sales agent talk about using this a lot too) I'd always wondered why his rider's horses jumped so brilliantly but always took the opportunity to stop at the tiniest rider mistake, or sometimes just flat out stop for no visible reason. I didn't even try any of his horses, he only had one in my very limited price range anyway and I was half in shock.

About a year later, that horse that was in my price range had a major meltdown in the ring, leading his rider to lock herself in the bathroom for hours. They ended up sending the horse to my trainer and I got to show him a couple times in the Prelims after about 6 months of being nice to him. He was champ. and reserve the two times I got to show him, but he was the most NEUROTIC animal I've ever seen. He had accidentally kicked and killed a dog while being tacked up before we got him, so that was always an adventure. In the beginning it was a three person job to put the tack on him and had to be done while he was walking, as did getting on him and you always had to ride him like he was made of eggshells. Poor guy. He was a classic example of what happens when stupid people try to use those training tools. He was such a scopey, square jumper but his neuroses and quirks made him an impossible sale even at $5k and I believe he was donated somewhere in the end.

Lol, that day at his farm was major disillusionment #1 for me!

cherham
Mar. 25, 2004, 04:00 PM
I have just read the last 6 pages of this thread (since I posted this afternoon) and my blood pressure is absoultely rising to the top.

I am totally appalled at the people on this thread that condone this type of "training" method on supposedly "lazy" horses.

I don't care what you call it....it is abuse and should not be allowed period! It is certainly not called "training".

What happened to good old proper training methods? If professional trainers are out there doing this sort of stuff (and I don't doubt for a second it is happening in the back fields) then it is time for the owners of these horses to speak up. As someone else said a blue or red ribbon is not just not worth this. These poor animals cannot speak for themselves.

jumper11
Mar. 25, 2004, 04:19 PM
I specifically said I wasn't condoning it (esp. the tacks/nails), simply stating reasons why trainers do it. Its is a quick fix for some trainers, it is not abusive, but in the wrong hands can be.... just like any other tool used on a horse (spurs, whips, chains etc.) granted it is not a method used by all trainers, thankfully. Give me a break, call the humane society the next time you see a trainer pole their horse, and see what they say about it... Please consider that you are claiming that possibly a majority of h/j trainers out there are animal abusers. Because I do believe that over 50% probably have done it, would do it, or would at least disagree with you that it is animal abuse...

CoolMeadows
Mar. 25, 2004, 04:20 PM
That was creepy. I just got a phone call from aforementioned dirtbag trainer. Recognized the drunken slur and immediately hung up... ah the annual drunk call. *shudder*

mst
Mar. 25, 2004, 04:33 PM
all i can say you would be amazed at who is doing it, when they are doing it, and where they are doing it. enough said.

Jennyoz
Mar. 25, 2004, 04:44 PM
I'm with you fluer. . .I had to read it a few times before I understood it. . .<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fleur:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> For those of you who don't know what poling is, it is when a trainer ties bamboo rods to the horses front legs. When they go over a jump the rider pulls up on the rods so the horse will jump with his legs up and square. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

is it just me or is this not what poling is? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

_TGFPT clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jenny Oz
www.jennyzny.com (http://www.jennyzny.com)

robnrun
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:06 PM
I think the occassional, careful use of a pole with the rubber tacks is OK; as someone else mentioned it really is similar to rough tree bark, or a stone wall (now that will make a careful jumper!). But anything else such as nails or poling (unfair to the horse) no. But that tack pole should only be used as a last option.
That being said, all too often the line is completely crossed in the desire to teach the horse to jump, not all want to! There is the grave of a Tb who didn't like to jump behind my barn. My mom bought him off of a 'trainer' whose favourite methods involved electric shock; that horse developed neurotic behaviour like so many others. Only sadly for him it was the desire to randomly and potentially lethaly attack people...he could have been a lovely horse, as he had been before the 'trainer.'

lauriep
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:07 PM
Ok, FINALLY!
http://community.webshots.com/album/128410692LIyAHn

seahorsefarms, if this makes you lose all respect for RJ, then you might as well go on and lose it for every GP rider out there, because they ALL tune at one time or another.

Anyhow, back when this book was written, poling at the shows was perfectly legal (many trainers, including us, had a thriving business in selling bamboos!)and was used by most everyone. If you were doing your horse, someone may have called out for you to bump theirs too. Certainly no secret! But NO ONE could get a horse using its hind end better than RJ, and that was always done just over a high vertical that he would just sit down early on - his jumpers were distinctive in how careful they were behind.

And, I know that the hunter ring sees its fair share of tuning, also. What job is more boring than the one these horses are made to do, weekend in and weekend out?

When a horse rubs the jumps, it almost never has to do with its limitations. It is either laziness, lack of respect for the jumps, boredom, basic lack of carefulness, or a combination. None of which mean the horse shouldn't be doing this job, but may require some sharpening. And if it works, the horse is none the worse for wear, and hasn't jumped 100 "gymnastic" fences which wouldn't get him to jump cleaner anyway, why not?

Laurie

Scout 2
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:12 PM
How many of you have "invisible fence" for your dogs? HMMMM....

Tha Ridge
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:21 PM
You rock, Scout 2. I've seen so many dogs screwed up by shock collars and invisible fences - more than any horses I've seen messed up.

I feel bad for everyone here that is so naive. The majority you have more than likely not been to a BNT barn... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

- L.

It's all about the act right.

lauriep
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:26 PM
Actually, it has nothing to do with BNT, as I have seen many that cannot use these techniques properly, and it isn't an "elitist" thing. But to see these methods used by people who do know how to use them, perhaps would help you to understand that, done properly, they constitute nothing more than a reminder to respect the jumps.

People that DON'T know, or care, how to do it properly can absolutely cause some major problems.

Laurie

Drakaina16
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:28 PM
Okay, I haven't read the entire thread yet, and I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but here goes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As another poster already said, I'd rather let my horse hit his legs on the carpet tack a few times, rather then repeatedly beating himself on a wooden pole.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If your horse is repeatedly beating himself on the wooden pole anyway, don't you think he might be overfaced? *puts on flame suit and goes to hide again*

Danya

Leena
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:33 PM
I have seen those things back 30 years ago...did not know that was still on. Horrible things that money, human pride can do.

After that they left those poor horses in so terrible conditions that it take months to get them back. They are never the same after.

lauriep
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:36 PM
Leena, what are you talking about?

Laurie

mst
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:48 PM
leena- no offensive, but what do you think our olympic team is comprised of?

War Admiral
Mar. 25, 2004, 05:55 PM
First off, I'd like to issue an apology to Lauriep for the way my initial post came out. It was *very* badly written and I've edited it to hopefully state more clearly what I meant. I most certainly did NOT mean to imply that Lauriep was a whiner - that's more MY territory, LOL!!

...But back to the matter at hand: Yes, I would think that deliberately hitting a horse in the coronet band with a HEAVY pole (not bamboo) would cause a small micro-reinjury every time and would definitely contribute to ringbone.

And no, Tha Ridge, I am NOT naive. In fact, I was trained to pole *correctly* with a bamboo decades and decades ago. I've never had occasion to do it since, at least not voluntarily, but yes, I know how.

I'd like to point out to Medievalist that Lauriep is absolutely right - this stuff with the tacks and cr*p has been going on for years. Back in the 70s it was legal, and RJ's training tactics were no better or worse than anyone else's out there, so let's not go singling him out. EVERYBODY did it; now, everybody does it undercover. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

But the point I'm trying to get across here is, I'm with the original poster 100%. I am so dang sick and tired of this cr*p. I am so dang tired of the keep-your-head-down-and-say-nothing mentality - which I myself indulged in for decades - that I've already voluntarily left the circuit. But the older I get, the more that just isn't enough any more. This is horse abuse, plain and simple, and it's time we all take action to get rid of it.

______________

Can I show under an alter, TOO?

juppy
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:37 PM
War Admiral, lead the way I am with you.

DMK
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
...But back to the matter at hand: Yes, I would think that deliberately hitting a horse in the coronet band with a HEAVY pole (not bamboo) would cause a small micro-reinjury every time and would definitely contribute to ringbone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree WA, but I don't know anyone that can effectively pole with a heavy pole. We don't have Aaaahnold on hand for heavy lifting - he has another engagement. Now that horse that jumps by braille? You know, the one usually found in the lower levels, owned by someone stuck with him and unable to admit the animal in question is without talent... the bona fide 12 faulter? Now THAT horse hits the heavy objects. But maybe not as much as the average upper level eventing horse who is confident with a rub. And we haven't even talked about stadium day in eventing. You know - lumberjack day?

So I have to believe that poling just isn't a real contributor to ringbone in the big scheme of things.

As for tack poles, these days I have mostly seen U shaped fence staples hammered in to a pole. It definitely makes them aware of a fence, but not the same effect as a tack pole. And I am here to confess that I always prefer 2-3 12' long 4X4's as jump poles in my hunt field. Set them up wedged in a jump cup on the diagonal and if someone opts for the braille method once, they won't the second time. If they do, I get to seriously consider a career change for that animal.

The reconstruction in Iraq is going over like a remake of Ishtar. Bruce Reed, Washington Monthly

War Admiral
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:47 PM
Oh heck DMK, go watch the video of Jilly Cooper's Riders - there's a more than adequate demonstration of poling w/ a heavy pole in there... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________

Can I show under an alter, TOO?

DMK
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:53 PM
there is a video of Riders? Who knew! Still, you must admit it isn't the norm, and we still have lumberjack day to explain away! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The reconstruction in Iraq is going over like a remake of Ishtar. Bruce Reed, Washington Monthly

War Admiral
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:59 PM
Yeah, I actually like it better than the book. (The second to last horse you see in the vid is SO MUCH a ringer for Avery that I actually stopped it & went & did some research to see if it *was* Avery, but it's not, the dates don't work out...) But back on topic, you only lift *one* side of the pole.

...And now don't all you kiddies go trying this at home! Or the video either, for that matter (parental discretion advised).

______________

Can I show under an alter, TOO?

Medievalist
Mar. 25, 2004, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'd like to point out to Medievalist that Lauriep is absolutely right - this stuff with the tacks and cr*p has been going on for years. Back in the 70s it was legal, and RJ's training tactics were no better or worse than anyone else's out there, so let's not go singling him out. EVERYBODY did it; now, everybody does it undercover. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that you misunderstood my post, WA. I never said it didn't go on back then, I had just never seen evidence of it other than what I had heard and I appreciate that lauriep posted them. The pictures are interesting and so are the book excerpts. I'm quite familiar with the tactics used by the trainers back in the day, and I still think RJ is awesome. Obviously I don't really have a problem with nubby carpet tack rails and correct poling. Just look at my earlier post! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I don't really understand what you thought that I was getting at?

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

Lisi
Mar. 25, 2004, 07:06 PM
Personally, I think that spiky poles with spikes that can't break the horse's skin are fine (like nubby plastic). If the horse isn't snappy enough in front, then he gets a pointed reminder to sharpen up. If he is, then nothing happens. It leaves all the consequence with the horse. I don't like poling for the same reason: the horse jumps up over the fence but still gets a smack. It seems like a training tool to put your horse in a situation in which jumping poorly results in (mild) punishment, but jumping nicely has no consequence. Put them short at the fence and make it a square or spiky rail. It seems like a short-cut if you go ahead and punish the horse for jumping over the fence.

lmlacross
Mar. 25, 2004, 07:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tha Ridge:

I feel bad for everyone here that is so naive. The majority you have more than likely not been to a BNT barn... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. Once again, to disagree with those who support "correct" and "judicious" use of tack rails as a reminder is simply a matter of personal opinion, and it need not have anything ot do with a rider's experience (or lack thereof) at A shows or with BNTs.

But I suppose it makes it much easier to justify your stance if you just assume that every dissenting voice on the use of tack rails could only possibly disagree because they lack the circuit exposure and high level training that you've apparently received. How wonderfully arrogant and narrow minded.

Perhaps some of us who come from the opposing viewpoint are indeed just as experienced, but we've simply formed different opinions based on the goods and bads we've seen come of this practice.

That couldn't be, though. It's much more comfortable to believe that those who disagree just can't comprehend, because we've missed out on some critical facet of the equestrian experience. Easier, because if you follow this reasoning, you'll never have to question your own support of the practice, because the only people arguing with you lack the necessary basis for constructing a valid argument.

To be clear, I am okay with your stance-- your stance is your own. It's the rationalization that I find so condescending.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Mar. 25, 2004, 08:17 PM
I own a BIG,LAZY selle francais gelding that oftentimes is lazy over the fences. (Flash44, you know how lazy Jake is!!) But i would NEVER use tacked rails to get him tighter. When we jump our horses, we are ASKING them to do something for us, not TELLING them. I know for sure, my horse would STOP jumping, not jump tighter if he associated pain with jumping. This method seems inhumane not because of the pain caused to the horse when they hit the jump, but because the horses are STILL jumping out of fear over tacked rails. What do u all do to them when they stop?! I can only IMAGINE...

Sugartowne II- "French Fry"
Ears To 'Ya- "Jake"
http://community.webshots.com/album/86540446bdOIrj

Silly Mommy
Mar. 25, 2004, 08:25 PM
FrenchFry-

There is a BIG difference between fear and respect, and alot of grey areas in between. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem.

www.wolfdenfarm.org (http://www.wolfdenfarm.org)

lauriep
Mar. 26, 2004, 06:30 AM
FrenchFry, I can honestly tell you that in the MANY horses I have seen schooled over tack rails, I have never seen ONE become fearful, or stop. Poling, yes, offsets, yes, but never tacks. They don't associate the very minor pain with anything but hitting the jump. The smart ones figure it out after one or two rubs; it can take the less bright ones a few more, but it works on most with no other consequences.

Imla, as I said before, BNTs have nothing to do with proper or improper use of these methods. But I DO think it is useful for anyone that has never seen it done PROPERLY, or at all, and there are many here as evidenced by their posts, to perhaps withold judgement until they do. Sometimes the hysterics displayed on these boards belie the reality of the subject under discussion.

Laurie

GotSpots
Mar. 26, 2004, 07:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But maybe not as much as the average upper level eventing horse who is confident with a rub. And we haven't even talked about stadium day in eventing. You know - lumberjack day? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Holy overstatement, Batman!

Actually, many of the upper level event horses are getting better and better in stadium, because a rail can mean the difference between 1st and 8th. It's a little different of a question to ask one of those horses to jump clean, in part because you are going for an optimum time instead for speed, and the courses, though getting harder, are still easier than many jumper classes. But many of those horses learn awfully quickly the difference between a stadium and an x-c fence, and it wouldn't be the first time someone has put 4x4s or something equally heavy into a stadium fence in order to explain to them that they need to pick their feet up, or used an offset for the same purpose.

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 26, 2004, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tha Ridge:
I feel bad for everyone here that is so naive. The majority you have more than likely not been to a BNT barn... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, i was, and my trainer didn't pole or use any other type of, what I consider abusive, training aids. And yes, we were quite successful at the A's.
BTW, that was a snotty remark to make, ThaRidge, IMHO!

[This message was edited by seahorsefarms on Mar. 26, 2004 at 11:55 AM.]

IveGottaJumpinQH
Mar. 26, 2004, 09:04 AM
How often does poling and tack rails lead to other problems? I would imagine that some horses became fearful, which leads to refusals. Also, are they going to be afraid whenever there are people standing near a jump?

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Shantine and Cody

bigbay
Mar. 26, 2004, 09:26 AM
*Sigh* It seems to me what we need to do here is differentiate between tack poles- those with rubber nubs or blunt nubs, and those with outright nails or tacks- and then differentiate those from poling (and then if you want, add the strongest category, poling with a tack pole). Because lumping it all together and calling it abuse is not productive to discussion or reform. If you're going to call it all abuse, then it's not too far of a stretch to say jumping itself is abuse.

IMO, poling is abuse, not because of any pain it inflicts on the horse, but because it plays mental games with the horse. When poling is used on a regular basis, the horse learns he can't trust his own judgement. He thought he measured the fence correctly, but he's still hitting it. At this point he becomes uncertain and confused and starts to quit altogether. This is why you see many horses ruined by poling- their trainers can't just pole once and leave it at that. The smart ones (like Didi, it seems) learn that they can only not trust their judgement when there's a human standing next to the fence, others can't make that distinction and are soured on all jumps.

BTW- poling is not necessarily done to that aforementioned consistent "12 faulter." If a horse doesn't care if he's hitting a wooden pole, he's certainly not going to care about hitting a bamboo one. More often, poling is used on those Big Ben type horses, the ones that just seem to barely skim over the fences and are giving their owners minor heart attacks, or just seem to keep pulling that unlucky rail. For hunters it may be those horses that have learned they don't have to stay quite as tight below the knee and can still make it over dangling their toes.

Tack rails, as I said earlier, have to be differentiated between first in order to discuss them fairly. "Nubby" rails, the kind with the plastic or rubber nubs are difficult for me to call abuse. Would you call a rough-cut wooden rail abuse? What about the 2x4 planks mentioned earlier? How about those natural rails on the outside hunter courses, the ones with the bark still on? And what about all cross country jumps- the ones that don't move when they're hit??

Sharp tack rails, are a different story IMO. Anything that's metal, sharp, and couldn't be compared in abraisiveness to the natural objects listed above, is asking for you or your horse to get hurt. That's abuse. If a horse won't jump better after employing a nubby rail, some planks, or some solid natural obstacles so that you have to resort to nails (or BB guns, cattle prods, spiked boots, chain nosebands, what-have-you), then he needs another job and so do you.

And for clarification, since I've never poled a horse or used any sort of tack rail, please feel free to correct me if the observations I've made are wrong. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"It is good to be fine."

furthermore
Mar. 26, 2004, 09:26 AM
Kudos to all who are taking part in this discussion in an constructive way. And I'm so envious as I haven't found a public venue in my own discipline where these difficult aspects can be discussed.

All disciplines have their dirty secrets. And it seems to me too easy for some to say "how appalling and how could you do that!" and too easy for others to say "you don't know what you're talking about". We can't let each other off the hook with those cliches. To me everyone holds responsibility. Trainers and owners by not continously questioning training practices. Anyone who buys a horse magazine or attends a top level event and admires the skill and beauty of the horses without wondering about the training involved to achieve that level.

War Admiral, go back to showing! I know how disillusioning and upsetting it can be, but experienced questioning people are exactly what any disciplines needs. I had the depressing experience last year of watching the finals of one of the top shows in my discipline and noted that probably 80% of the horse in the finals had blocked tails, an illegal practice. Came home, wrote a letter to the ruling association, and cc'ed the USET and FEI representatives. Got a letter back from my association justifying why they couldn't institute tail checks, got a letter back from the FEI saying they would look into the situation and get back to me. Haven't heard back. A few months later, a BNT gets convicted of tail blocking and banned from showing for six months. Not convicted by the show association mind you, convicted under state law, by an owner willing to go outside the business. To me depressing that that's what it took. But if I leave the business because of situations like that, I modestly feel the business would lose the benefit of my thinking. Because I truly believe times are changing and thoughtful flexible people are going to be needed. Look at what happened to the movie business. Production companies pay for an outside-the-industry group that ensures that if you bring 1000 cockroaches on set in the morning, by golly 1000 cockroaches have to leave at the end of the day.

How about a foundation that could set up a rating system for training and showing barns. Pay to have a horse and owner spend a year undercover in that barn or install videos that would be monitored for a year. Like restaurant reviews the barns would be rated with a certain number of stars based on a objective standard for their methods. Standards would be set by people like Lauriep who know when that method crosses the line. Or perhaps a system like hospital ratings where the horse attrition rate for each barn is measured as I find that alone often telling.

Then one, people could really vote with their feet and/or two, barns could be shut down by law enforcement agencies. Unfortunately in my experience people would still choose the barns with potentially abusive training methods. But there might be enough people willing to reward those who never cross the line. And what I sometimes see are trainers who are not willing to push the envelope and who, because of that, possibly, are not competitive and therefore struggling to stay in business.

At the very least, horse industry practices would then be out in the light of day for all to see. On the other hand would we all be prepared and willing, included those who simply watch the Olympics on TV, for a possible lowering of show quality.

Well, there's my rant. Thanks again to all of you willing to discuss to these issues in a calm, reasonable manner. You give me hope http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

First Gold
Mar. 26, 2004, 09:37 AM
I am with Flash, findeight and all others who think that poling or using tacks to get your horse to jump better is just WRONG. I'm in the sport because I love horses. It seems to me that people who resort to those methods may have forgotten why they got into horses in the 1st place.

Bellevista Farm
Mar. 26, 2004, 09:38 AM
Most of those methods are horrible and they are generally used on "old" campaigners who get lax and lazy in their jumping form. The nubby plastic is not a bad reminder for a horse to jump cleaner, anything that cuts or scares a horse should be illegal. I have never used a nubby plastic pole. It took a long time for saddlebred people to stop soring horses, once the right agencies got involved it stopped. The hunters and jumpers need the same. If a horse has visable scars or cuts on the front of his canon bones to his hooves, indicating tacks or nails were used, he should not be allowed to show.
I know that in the old old days trainers put tin cans on a jump pole so it rattled if the horse hit the pole. In my book that might scare the living daylights out of a young horse and certainly ruin a chestnut mare! /sounds better than tacks though.
There are pros and cons to offsets. I would certainly not use an offset without the help of a top top level A'3 trainer.

the bottom line is inexperienced trainers are trying to make horses jump clean in a division they do not have the talent for or the desire to compete at that level. Let's face it how many local riders and starting A circuit riders ask to see their trainer's schooling and training. All they look at is the trainer's accomplishments in the ring. If the horse show governing bodies required trainers to pass a test like race horse trainers then a lot of what you see and classify as bad trainers would disapear.

Another reason could be the trainer lacks the knowledge to train the horse correctly with gymnastics at home to improve the jumping style and form, thereby moving the horse naturally up the levels. But anyone can get De Nemethy's book on gymnastic work and set these up and practice them and thereby improve their horse.

Finally, no one seems to want to take the time to make a jumper. In the old days pros rode the scopey jumper in the hunters up to working hunter division than into the schooling jumpers, than onto preliminary etc, then the horse went to a junior or A/O, and the 3% or so of fantastic ones went into Grand Prix Jumping. There were no 2'6--3'3" jumpers classes back then, and because of that young horses did not race around over low jumps. Watch at a big A'3 show and see the difference in the way a low jumper goes and a high Junior or high A/o jumper goes, or even a modified jumper goes. Watch the big name trainers school these horses on the flat in the morning. You can learn more from watching George Morris or Joe Fargis school a horse on the flat at a big show than in a years worth of lessons.

and then you have to put the time and practice on the flat into your horse to have a champion jumper. You cannot blame the trainer entirely as ultimately your horse's training rests with you and your discipline as a rider.

Clarice

jumper11
Mar. 26, 2004, 10:23 AM
Bravo to LaurieP and all others that are constructively explaining themselves and actually reading what others write before pointing fingers and claiming that anyone who could possibly think poling is not horse abuse are themselves horse abusers. Let me repeat nails and tacks and anything that would make a horse bloody is abusive.... Someone rapping the horses legs once or twice to get a tighter jump is NOT abuse... plasticwrap with little nubbies on it is also not abuse... You people are going to effectively put all horse trainers out of business if you continuely scream horse abuse at the drop of a hat... Of course you do help and save many horses, but come on I think things can be taken to extremes. Obviously people read this forum and you do make a difference, I can just see it now, famous trainers around the country fined and suspended for having plastic wrapped around their jumps... Geeezus...

Leena
Mar. 26, 2004, 11:49 AM
Lauriep, sorry, for some reasons I did not get the replies with my mail. Anyway I am talking about the use of those rails, spike poles to get the horse jump.
This was there 30 years ago, and more than that. Nothing new about it.
After that, the poor horse, over trained, over jump is left behind.

Bellevista Farm
Mar. 26, 2004, 11:51 AM
IMO abuse starts small just like crime and criminals. They get away with one small thing and then they try something worse or bigger. I agree that people take things to an extreme. However, if someone or a trainer condones small abuse, such as a nubby plastic rail, I would be concerned where it might lead. If the trainer is very ethical and had a clean horse show record I would not. Why don't riders check with the USA E and find out if their trainers, or prospective trainers, have ever been suspended?
Horses are the best ways to Judge a barn and trainer. If they are all happy, well fed, and actually "run" to see humans, there is a good chance they are not being abused. If they are cranky, or guant, and or all of them hate to be caught in the field, etc.. I would steer clear.

lmlacross
Mar. 26, 2004, 11:57 AM
Lauriep, you don't need to clarify yourself on my behalf. I think you've been very clear that this kind of training aid can be negative when in uneducated, inexperienced hands. My response was directed at The Ridge's supposition that all we who aren't comfortable with the practice must not have had the competitive experience necessary to make a sound judgemnt.

I've had no issue with anything you've posted- to the contrary, I thought it was, as usual, rational and balanced. Again, for me, it's not the practice itself (we're all entitled to disagree on behalf of our own horses), but the arrogant and faulty rationalization constructed by some in order to support it.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

tardy
Mar. 27, 2004, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bellevista Farm:
But anyone can get De Nemethy's book on gymnastic work and set these up and practice them and thereby improve their horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, De Nemethy polled his horses. So did/do at least some of his former riders.

Bellevista Farm
Mar. 27, 2004, 11:29 AM
OMG how could anyone make a degrading comment about Bert deNemthy, no matter how subtle. My dear child he is the most knowledgeable brilliant horseman in the World. He ranks up there with the real greats. And please don't lump him in with "trainers". This is a coach of the Olympic teams. He is a real horseman in the likes of Bill Steinkraus (one of his famous Olympic riders). Oh and lets not forget Gordon Wright. And the current Frank Chapot. And if anyone, and beleive me there are few, people know how to pole a horse and why it would be used is Bert deNemethy and there would be no abuse I can assure you.

I would muck a thousand stalls and pay $1000 for a lesson directly from the esteemed Mr. deNemthy.

This man took raw talented Throughbreds and developed those horses and their riders to go beat the Million dollar Germans Warmbloods. He learned the TB mindset and developed a system to make them legendary International showjumpers. For example let us remember Joe's great mare "Touch of Class", how many riders or Olympic level coaches have you seen develop a 15.2-3 hand Thoroughbred "mare" no less into an Olympic mount. No one will even look at a TB jumper mare under 15.3 nowadays.

If he or George Morris, or Joe Fargis or anyone of that league set up anything and told me to ride down to it in the schooling ring and jump it I would trust them. The foremost thought in these great coaches minds are the safety of the horse and its rider. But again they DO NOT fall in the "trainer" category. They are so far above that. I stopped being a professional trainer because I am so ashamed of what I see trainers do that I cannot be one and be associated into that or even stand to be called a "trainer". Although, I love to train, I in the past before I lost my money bought young horses and trained them.
I therefore went back to being an A/O rider and trained under the greats and they helped me make these horses champions. I read every book I could get. I then set up and practiced what I read and followed the system, no short cuts or skipping chapters. I am proud of many A/O riders and one of the most exceptional riders and the most nicest gracious rider of all time would be Betty Oare (Reynolds)

So, I agree everyone has the right to accept poling or hate poling. I never had anyone pole my horses because I spent hours on flatwork and training over gymnastics and they jumped tight and clean. Why don't we really admit that poling is a consequence of riders today that do not put the hours of proper flatwork and gymnastic work into their horses and seek a quick fix instead. Neither can they admit when a horse does not have the talent and sell it on to a suitable home and find another prospect. Look to yourself for the problems and quick fixes and stop blaming others.

We cannot expect "trainers" to make us a horse like Bert deNemthy can. Of course Bert deNemthy would never let you rush a horse's training and go in a class without a solid foundation and the ability to win that class.

ALF
Mar. 27, 2004, 11:42 AM
How do the people who always say 'everyone does it' know if that's the case? I think thats a sweeping generalization that couldn't possibly be based on firsthand information.

jumper11
Mar. 27, 2004, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tardy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bellevista Farm:
But anyone can get De Nemethy's book on gymnastic work and set these up and practice them and thereby improve their horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, De Nemethy polled his horses. So did/do at least some of his former riders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont' think anyone was insulting or lumping DeNemethy into any categories, but thanks for the history lesson.... I do agree poling is a short cut, I don't think it is abusive. The method itself can be abused in the wrong hands, like many other tools used for short cuts (instead of properly training ones horse). My only argument regarding poling is the attitude in generalizing that it is abusive, so if you don't want me generalizing in saying that many trainers I know of have poled their horses at one time or another (which is true) then you might stop generalizing as well http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

findeight
Mar. 27, 2004, 01:05 PM
A belated welcome to our BB family Bellevista..some very thoughtful posts here from you.
But DeNemethy did advocate PROPER use of poling at appropriate times.

I always thought, if properly done (with bamboo), it was effective and humane...but the horses get so smart so quick about anybody standing near the jump it quickly becomes worthless. I well understand laying the bamboo or a pole across the top of the rail and letting the horse sharpen himself up if he catches a toe. It doesn't hurt and happens only if the horse hits the rail.
If the horse has a huge problem hitting rails? He needs a physical or a career change or needs to drop down. Too many so called "trainers" are afraid to tell clients the truth about untalented or physically unable animals and they, I think anyway, are the worst offenders in trying to compensate by overusing gimmicks, gadgets and tricks.

If my trainers manually pole at all I've never seen it and the horses that have been in the barn awhile don't mind anybody standing near the fences. Haven't seen anything laying on top of the rails either..and I am there alot.
I never gave it that much thought but, reflecting upon some of the comments made here, we do school alot over low offsets/Swedish and low, square oxers and the poles are all heavy.
That,and the fact the horses are properly selected for their jobs keeps them sharp enough for us Adult Hunters and the Juniors.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

lauriep
Mar. 27, 2004, 01:22 PM
Bellevista, you need to tighten up on your history a bit.

Touch of Class was started, very ably, by Debi Conor, under Frances Rowe's tutelage. She came to Joe and Conrad with a very good start on her, and Conrad rode her for a good while before Joe did. Bert never had a thing to do with her. She was 16 hands. And while I also bemoan the fact that TBs are no longer the horse of choice, the fact is that they are out of fashion, again, having nothing to do with Bert. He would use a good horse of any breed, not just TBs. He was Hungarian, so was very familiar with the European stock.

If you think Joe never rode a horse over a tack rail, think again.

Although Bert COULD take raw, talented TBs, most of the horses donated to the team were already well along the way in the jumper divisions (such as they were at the time) and were polished and given a system by Bert. And he was wonderful in his methods and gave this country the system we are known for, the "look" we are known for.

But he was also a human being, never walked on water as far as I know, and certainly would "tune" one when necessary.

And you speak of him in the present tense; do you not know he died several years ago?

Laurie

findeight
Mar. 27, 2004, 01:28 PM
Lauriep are you sure TOC was 16h?

Could swear she was 15.2 or3.

Calling Lordhelpus..how tall was your mare?

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

lauriep
Mar. 27, 2004, 01:34 PM
Since I was the barn manager at Sandron when she was there, and had indirect care of her, yes, I am sure. She was very fine boned, however, and with the giant Joe on her, looked like a pony.

Laurie

findeight
Mar. 27, 2004, 01:55 PM
thank you Laurie.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Bellevista Farm
Mar. 27, 2004, 02:07 PM
well read my post again. I never said Joe rode under Bert.

and everyone can claim to have sat on a world famous horse when it was young and claim to have made the horse an Olympic champion. However, I will admit that Debi Conor put a good start on her. But the main issue of my discussion is not trainers. But the great coaches and riders, which are in a totally different class.

yes I know he died and I do worry that his methods will be shoved to the back of a bookshelf or in old trunks in someones attic.
What a waste that would be.

DMK
Mar. 27, 2004, 05:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GotSpots:
Actually, many of the upper level event horses are getting better and better in stadium, because a rail can mean the difference between 1st and 8th. It's a little different of a question to ask one of those horses to jump clean, in part because you are going for an optimum time instead for speed, and the courses, though getting harder, are still easier than many jumper classes. But many of those horses learn awfully quickly the difference between a stadium and an x-c fence, and it wouldn't be the first time someone has put 4x4s or something equally heavy into a stadium fence in order to explain to them that they need to pick their feet up, or used an offset for the same purpose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not even coming close to disagreeing with you, but I think on average across the great spectrum of eventers, one might see a few more rails down in the stadium jumping phase of eventing than across the great spectrum of jumpers. And that ain't passing judgement on anyone. That is merely to indicate that if hitting heavy poles played some role in ringbone development (it may or may not), surely an event horse would show a greater frequency of it for no reason than he is expected to be confident and comfortable around heavy solid objects.

Tread carefully Newsman, for the day is nigh when the Armies of Rove shall come alive to claim their due, for lo it has been foretold that the son of the 41st king shall twice be crowned, the treasuries will be emptied, the ads unleashed and the blue states will run red with a 100 million dollars of hellfire and retribution! Steven Colbert, The Daily Show

ALF
Mar. 27, 2004, 07:55 PM
I'm sure George Norris could tell us exactly how tall Touch of Class was, since he was quite certain she was too small to make it as a jumper.

fourmares
Mar. 27, 2004, 11:30 PM
The problem with tack poles is that they punish the effect without addressing the cause.

And poling and purposely putting your horse tight to get a rail are little more than lieing to your horse.

Just because everyone else does it doesn't mean it is right... "gee Mom, but Everyone is doing it"...bet it doesn't work when your teenager says it to you....

jr
Mar. 28, 2004, 04:42 AM
Fourmares, I respect your position, but I have to disagree.

"The problem with tack poles is that they punish the effect without addressing the cause."

True, poles can be pulled because of all sorts of issues, and the causes (usually poor flatwork) need to addressed. However, some horses can have a perfect distance, a perfect ride, and still have a rail -- they get careless. Poling for these horses is a reminder for them to do their part and keep track of where all their parts are.

"And poling and purposely putting your horse tight to get a rail are little more than lieing to your horse."

Really have to disagree with this one. Horses need to learn to jump cleanly from tight distances -- the only way to do that is to school them to do so. I'm an amateur. Trust me, I'm not lieing to my horse when I get a tight distance, I'm just incompetent http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. If he's not schooled to deal with situation, shame on us for not training him correctly to deal with the situation. It is a very poor training methodology to train a horse to rely on always having the perfect situation, perfect distance. I don't care who you are, you sometimes get weird distances. You OWE it to your horse to train them to deal with the inevitable. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

War Admiral
Mar. 28, 2004, 05:00 AM
DMK - Just to clarify my opinion (which is only that!), I have no objection to poling w/ a light pole, correctly done and infrequently used as a "friendly reminder". But I do think that poling with a heavy pole and specifically poling to the coronet band - a practice which I'd certainly never heard of until it was mentioned here - makes me shudder and I bet if a study were done on horses subjected to this on a regular basis, it *would* contribute to ringbone. I don't see how it *couldn't*.

______________

Can I show under an alter, TOO?

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 28, 2004, 08:00 AM
Jr--
I understand that that's your opinon, just as this is mine, but horses have a *job* to do. They aren't pets, they aren't pasture ornaments.

I love my horses very dearly. However, I expcet them to jump cleanly over the requisite number of fences barring extraneous circumstances (ie, the end of circuit) or rider error. They need to respect the fences for their safety and mine, because even though showjumping poles are light, you don't want to get a horse into the habit of being lazy with it's front end or lumberjack-y with its back end. In addition to making showing them a waste of time and money, it raises the risk of flipping and tripping over downed poles.

Also, while poling and spike rails aren't necessary methods of training, just, imo, a viable option that when used right actually causes less stress, fear, and confusion that doing it the long way, putting a horse, especially a jumper, in deep to a jump absolutley is. It's not lying to your horse, it's training your horse how to use himself. I'm sorry, but to say that that is lying to a horse is like saying that lunging him is lying a horse, because you're bringing him out and putting tack on and not getting on his back. Unexpected variations are what keep horses engaged in their work, and there's nothing better than a thinking horse for keeping rails up.

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

CBoylen
Mar. 28, 2004, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
_ and specifically poling to the coronet band_ - a practice which I'd certainly never heard of until it was mentioned here - makes me shudder and I bet if a study were done on horses subjected to this on a regular basis, it *would* contribute to ringbone. I don't see how it *couldn't*.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two issues. First of all, the coronet band is obviously what you would aim for when manual poling with a bamboo. Hitting hooves is doing nothing, and why on earth would one want to smack their horse in the canon bone, even with a light rail? The majority of rubs come from the coronet band area. If the horse is taking rails down by the roots, poling is not going to help. If you see someone poling and NOT aiming for the coronet band, or missing it repeatedly, then they're incompetent.
Second of all, "regular basis" is certainly misleading. Overuse would definitely diminish the effect of any kind of tune. At most, we're talking horses that might be poled with a bamboo once every two or three months. I really think attributing ringbone to these circumstances is stretching it a bit.

BTW, I've overused the word bamboo in order to be clear. I'm really not sure where you get the idea of people manual poling with a heavy pole. Go lift one. See if you can swing it with any degree of accuracy. Yes, people have been know to set one on the edge of the cup, or to raise one end off the cup as the horse goes over, but in those cases the horse hits the rail with the same degree of force as if he'd hit it of his own accord. So if that degree of hit contributes to ringbone, then tuned horses would be less likely to develop the disease, as they would hit less fences on their own.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Anne
Mar. 28, 2004, 09:08 AM
I'm not touching the poling discussions with a 10 foot... well, pole, but it is EXTREMELY unlikely that poling could be linked to the development of ringbone. Ringbone is an arthritic condition and does not develop as a result of blunt trauma. That's like saying kids who fall and skin their knees often are more likely to develop arthritic knees as adults. I don't buy that.

lauriep
Mar. 28, 2004, 09:18 AM
Well said, Anne and Chanda!

Laurie

LimoWrek
Mar. 28, 2004, 10:04 AM
UM. Using spiked polls isn't lying to the horse. Missing to a jump is lying to a horse. Letting the horse smack the hell out of a poll because its lazy isn't lying...

----
Crack is Whack!
Whitney doesn't do crack... Crack is cheap!

LimoWrek
Mar. 28, 2004, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:

and why on earth would one want to smack their horse in the canon bone, even with a light rail? The majority of rubs come from the coronet band area. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, I've had a crappy horse that I've wanted to poll in its stomach before.. I would 'stomach' down the jumps, like a bad EQ horse.

----
Crack is Whack!
Whitney doesn't do crack... Crack is cheap!

LimoWrek
Mar. 28, 2004, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bellevista Farm:
OMG how could anyone make a degrading comment about Bert deNemthy, no matter how subtle. My dear child he is the most knowledgeable brilliant horseman in the World. He ranks up there with the real greats. And please don't lump him in with "trainers". This is a coach of the Olympic teams. He is a real horseman in the likes of Bill Steinkraus (one of his famous Olympic riders). Oh and lets not forget Gordon Wright. And the current Frank Chapot. And if anyone, and beleive me there are few, people know how to pole a horse and why it would be used is Bert deNemethy and there would be no abuse I can assure you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


From Steinkraus' book: In my earlier book Riding and Jumping, I devoted several pages to discussing various forms of rapping and related techniques designed to make a careless horse try harder, not because I have a fixiationon the subject (as certain innocents have alleged), but because rapping was, is and always will be a fact of the show jumper's life. Why? Becaue most of these methods for getting horses to jump more cleanly acatually work ,in varying degrees, and thus lead to more clear rounds, more blue ribbons, and more money. And they are insecally cruel? Not if employeed with intellig3ence and discretion. And, do, despite all the legislation aimed at limiting or prohibiting these practices, despite the fact that they are abhorred by sincere if misguided animal activists and muckraking journalists and despite the fact that they are subject to abuse by MORONS (who abuse everything they touch anyway), many riders will continue to use them.


HE ALSO SAYS LATER IN THE BOOK: I like to have several three-quarter-inch iron pipes, at least one of them painted white, top place on top of fences that usually invite a hit.


So, Bellivista Farm.. your god is really your devil! Hah.

----
Crack is Whack!
Whitney doesn't do crack... Crack is cheap!

Judi
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:15 PM
Well... after reading these posts I can certainly say I am soooo grateful my horse hates to hit the jumps as I would feel so bad having to pole him every time I went to a show. I do understand that it's a training method that used correctly (in the right professional hands) can be a very effective tool and I make no judgements on those who use it.

BUT... I really don't think I could continue showing my horse in the jumpers if I had to do this EVERY time before a class. I think I would look to another discipline if that was the case because my horse is my partner and I wouldn't want to betray his trust.

I do jumpers because Rainier LOVES to jump and walks eagerly into the Jumper arena with ears pricked and ready to take that first fence every time. (If he was a dog he'd be wagging his tail in the jumper arena.) We rarely hit a rail and almost never take one down. If we do it's ALWAYS pilot error. And I'm almost appologizing to my boy before we hit the ground for causing it. (Too tight a distance turning to tight on top of the fence etc.).

As for the statement that "ALL or the majority of BNT's use this technique" I can honestly say that my BNT does not have one of these devices in the barn. As a matter of fact he uses the ultra light plastic poles in our hunter ring. (No judgements on those who do.. but want folks to know that there are some BNT's out there who don't use these methods to get their horses to jump better)

Lastly... one of the biggest reasons I am glad my trainer doesn't use this method... is that sometimes I MISS... sometimes the Asst. Trainers MISS. I'd hate for my horse to hit a fence from a pilot error AND have the added hurt of an ouchy fence. I never want my boy to associate saving my butt with hurting himself.

Now that being said... This is easy for me to say because I have a tight, clean jumping horse who HATES to hit the jumps... (he gets mad with the slightest rub)...

AND in support of poling and other training methods for lazy jumpers... I think one other benefit is it is certainly better for a lazy jumper to learn to pick up his feet than for him to get careless and flip, fall or truly hurt himself in the jumper areana.

Hows that for walking both sides of the fence.

: )

http://community.webshots.com/user/stewartjudi

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:20 PM
Judi--
you might have misunderstood a little--no one who knows what they're doing poles before every class. that would be bad

and i'm surprised your trainer uses PVC poles, as most trainers are quite careful with the use of them.

Judi
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Box-of-Rox:
Judi--
you might have misunderstood a little--no one who knows what they're doing poles before every class. that would be bad

and i'm surprised your trainer uses PVC poles, as most trainers are quite weary of them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes... absolutely agree BOR... I was referring to the poster who said they knew a jumper who had to be poled at every show to brigthen them up.

Not the pvc pipe.. but the new plastic jumps that they are selling now.. They have plastic standards and large plastic full jumper length poles that are really light. Too be honest I don't think my BNT uses them because they are more humane or anything.... He just bought this new set of jumps and I'm guessing it's cuz he is "admittedly" lazy in dragging the heavy jumps around.. LOL.

Are these new poles what you are talking about or the use of PVC pipes in poling? Are the less humane then regular wooden jumping poles?

Thanks for the instruction.

judi

http://community.webshots.com/user/stewartjudi

LimoWrek
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:30 PM
what the hell here is a BNT guys? Everyone has a BNT? Every trainer is a BNT. Some are just BNLT, but most are BNT. Is any trainer who has a banner and chairs with their logo on them BNT's? Every trainer I know has a banner. Even the local ones that show three times a year. It doesn't make them bad. I really don't think there are a lot of BNT's in the world. if there were, they woudn't all be big, only medium.

----
Crack is Whack!
Whitney doesn't do crack... Crack is cheap!

CBoylen
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:31 PM
What box-of-rox is refering to is the fact that repeated schooling over PVC poles LEADS to careless jumpers, since the poles are lighter and the horses become complacent about hitting them.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

LimoWrek
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Judi:

Too be honest I don't think my BNT uses them because they are more humane or anything.... He just bought this new set of jumps and I'm guessing it's cuz he is "admittedly" lazy in dragging the heavy jumps around.. LOL.

Are these new poles what you are talking about or the use of PVC pipes in poling? Are the less humane then regular wooden jumping poles?

Thanks for the instruction.

judi


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No a good trainer will NOT use light weight polls. It teaches horses to jump bad. Sorry, but your trainer isn't a BNT.

Edited to add, I am not trying to be rude. I went to the pictures of your webshots and your horses are jumping with OK and stuff. But I seriously cannot believe that your trainer is a huge trainer that uses plastic, light weight polls.

Feel free to prove me wrong (I mean, I could be very wrong), but I just seriously doubt it.

----
Crack is Whack!
Whitney doesn't do crack... Crack is cheap!

GatoGordo
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:34 PM
Judi, what I would be worried about with the much lighter poles is having them go flying when a horse hits them instead of falling (almost) straight down. Also, I think there is some risk of splintering/breaking/impaling with PVC poles, though I don't know anything about the plastic non-PVC poles. I wouldn't say they are necessarily less humane in the way that some people think nubby poles are, just potentially dangerous.

DMK
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:38 PM
Judi, the reason many trainers/riders (myself included) are wary of PVC poles is that it is very easy for a horse to "punch" one out in front of them if they hit it hard (think bad distance, not that I have ever done that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), and get tangled up in them. Heavier wooden poles are more likely to drop straight down and be out of the landing range.

My old trainer got the PVC standards when they first came out then promptly sold them. The wind knocked every last one of them down... frequently... I think he thought that was more work than dragging them around, although I don't know what he was worried about - he hasn't moved a standard, except to spread an oxer in years! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Tread carefully Newsman, for the day is nigh when the Armies of Rove shall come alive to claim their due, for lo it has been foretold that the son of the 41st king shall twice be crowned, the treasuries will be emptied, the ads unleashed and the blue states will run red with a 100 million dollars of hellfire and retribution! Steven Colbert, The Daily Show

Judi
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GatoGordo:
Judi, what I would be worried about with the much lighter poles is having them go flying when a horse hits them instead of falling (almost) straight down. Also, I think there is some risk of splintering/breaking/impaling with PVC poles, though I don't know anything about the plastic non-PVC poles. I wouldn't say they are necessarily less humane in the way that some people think nubby poles are, just potentially dangerous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think these poles are made specifically for jumpers... so they aren't supposed to splinter... but I do agree that they do go flying more than the others and can cause a stumble. Although we've had them for a year and plenty of horses have crashed through them without incident.. but good point....

http://community.webshots.com/user/stewartjudi

CBoylen
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:
what the hell here is a BNT guys? Everyone has a BNT? Every trainer is a BNT. Some are just BNLT, but most are BNT. Is any trainer who has a banner and chairs with their logo on them BNT's? Every trainer I know has a banner. Even the local ones that show three times a year. It doesn't make them bad. I really don't think there are a lot of BNT's in the world. if there were, they woudn't all be big, only medium.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. Everyone wants to designate anyone well know to them or their area as a BNT. Frankly, in my opinion anyway, there are a total of about 25 people that can TRULY be considered BNT. That's why all these generalizations are so invalid.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Sannois
Mar. 28, 2004, 01:57 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I am sure I will get flamed for this ,, I NEVER come to this forum, but saw this Topic. This thread scares me! Is the ribbon that important??? I do low level eventing, And Never jump my horse that much. He is not fancy but gets the job done. I could never let anyone hit my horses legs with a pole while jumping. I'm sure you can say all dont do it. But It seems that it is very common. Oh well What do I know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

Judi
Mar. 28, 2004, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:
what the hell here is a BNT guys? Everyone has a BNT? Every trainer is a BNT. Some are just BNLT, but most are BNT. Is any trainer who has a banner and chairs with their logo on them BNT's? Every trainer I know has a banner. Even the local ones that show three times a year. It doesn't make them bad. I really don't think there are a lot of BNT's in the world. if there were, they woudn't all be big, only medium.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. Everyone wants to designate anyone well know to them or their area as a BNT. Frankly, in my opinion anyway, there are a total of about 25 people that can TRULY be considered BNT. That's why all these generalizations are so invalid.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL... okay my bad... I guess we all would like to think we train with a BNT for the money we pay. I'm sure my trainer wouldn't be on your list Chandra. Although he has clients that have some of the top rated small ponies in the nation and his main client just won Grand Circuit Champion at Indio... He sure isn't a GP rider so perhaps I should correct myself and say

My MNT... for Medium Name Trainer... or BNLT for Big Name Local Trainer? Nah.. perhaps I'll just say "My trainer" and leave it at that.

I've been schooled.

: )

http://community.webshots.com/user/stewartjudi

CBoylen
Mar. 28, 2004, 02:20 PM
That was hardly my point Judi. I certainly don't want to insult anyone's trainer. I just find any sort of generalization, whether good or bad, misleading, especially in this case, where the term is so over-used on these boards.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Judi
Mar. 28, 2004, 02:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
That was hardly my point Judi. I certainly don't want to insult anyone's trainer. I just find any sort of generalization, whether good or bad, misleading, especially in this case, where the term is so over-used on these boards.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Agreed... Agreed Chandra.... no insult taken actually. I fully agree with you. I think we all sort of put in the BNT if we have a regionally well-known professional trainer who does a nice job. But I do understand the point of your post.. and think the term is probably WAY overused. I just didn't want to be one of the folks to over use it...

no worries.

http://community.webshots.com/user/stewartjudi

Bellevista Farm
Mar. 28, 2004, 05:10 PM
I agree about PVC poles. They are also great for young horses first free jumping. But they are super if you put some sand in them and they sell the end caps for them at the hardware store. Just don't make them too heavy, or you will end up standing your horse on its head if he hits one hard.

Jaysee
Mar. 28, 2004, 05:22 PM
As a former employee of a few different BNTs, never have I seen any of the "good ones" NOT use some type of "training aid", beit wire, weighted boots, bamboo, DMSO, "heat", offsets, 2"x4"s, tack rails, darkly lit aisles at big shows where a pitchfork (or broom) handle was implemented, dressage whips, the list goes on. When there is a lot of money at stake, it happens, and will continue to happen. I am not talking about BNT "local" trainers, so on that, I can't comment.

~*~*~*~*~*~

Tha Ridge
Mar. 28, 2004, 06:18 PM
Thank you, Jaysee. You speak the truth. I refuse to believe that there is a true BNT that doesn't implement these methods into their training.

- L.

It's all about the act right.

DreamBigEq37
Mar. 28, 2004, 06:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Box-of-Rox:
square pole? fine. pole wrapped in nubby rubber? fine. pole with carpet tacks on it? not fine.

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Out of curiosity... are square poles intended to make horses jump better? I'm not sure I understand why that is... anyone care to explain? I have ridden with trainers who had square poles, I didn't realize that was the reason.

*~*~Lauryn*~*~*~
&lt;3 Justice Served &lt;3
&lt;3 Nip N Tuck &lt;3


"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion. You must set yourself on fire." -Reggie Leach

lamealterego
Mar. 28, 2004, 06:27 PM
Square poles don't roll when you hit them for one thing. Another thing that hurts is when they hit one of the edges of square!

Sannois
Mar. 28, 2004, 07:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaysee:
As a former employee of a few different BNTs, never have I seen any of the "good ones" NOT use some type of "training aid", beit wire, weighted boots, bamboo, DMSO, "heat", offsets, 2"x4"s, tack rails, darkly lit aisles at big shows where a pitchfork (or broom) handle was implemented, dressage whips, the list goes on. When there is a lot of money at stake, it happens, and will continue to happen. I am not talking about BNT "local" trainers, so on that, I can't comment.

~*~*~*~*~*~
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And this is all Perfectly acceptable??? I'm so glad I dont do the Hunters anymore! That is not sport! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

ssaymssik
Mar. 28, 2004, 07:16 PM
So are the Hunters.

That would be backwards

Jaysee
Mar. 28, 2004, 11:31 PM
Sannois, I certainly don't condone the behavior. These methods are more for the GP horses, not so much hunters, although they get it too. Not quite as much on the line ($$-wise).

~*~*~*~*~*~

Sannois
Mar. 29, 2004, 03:41 AM
Thanks for the Reply Jaycee. I am in no way trying to start a fight, but I am very curious to know how many hunter riders think this is perfectly acceptable training methods? AND why is it necessary Dont these horses have enough talent and scope at the upper levels to get the job done with out implementing these methods? Or am I just so out of the loop? Just baffled I guess. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

Tha Ridge
Mar. 29, 2004, 05:29 AM
Jaysee is right that the Hunters don't get nearly as much as the Jumpers. Most often, Hunters will be the ones jumping over the "oh-so-painful" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif spike rails.

Sannois - every horse has the ability to jump 3'6" naturally. They get lazy, and I think, done right, they need to have a reminder every once in awhile.

Don't try to make yourself seem like a god(dess) just by seeming to be naive to these methods and acting like everyone who does them is so horrible because it is very far from the truth.

- L.

It's all about the act right.

tardy
Mar. 29, 2004, 05:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sannois:
I NEVER come to this forum, but saw this Topic. This thread scares me! Is the ribbon that important??? I do low level eventing, And Never jump my horse that much. He is not fancy but gets the job done. I could never let anyone hit my horses legs with a pole while jumping. I'm sure you can say all dont do it. But It seems that it is very common. Oh well What do I know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Welcome to this forum, eventer. A lot of people here have been to Rolex. We know how horses look after the cross country; and those tired horses try to get across the stadium jumping course the next day. Never hit a fence, right.
However, it is really despicable when a show jumper who gets consistently soft and accurate ride over fences is occasionally jumped over a bamboo pole to be reminded to mind his job. It would be so much kinder to crash him over a solid Rolex fence.

Jaysee
Mar. 29, 2004, 06:44 AM
Tardy, good answer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~*~*~*~*~*~

Sandy M
Mar. 29, 2004, 08:02 AM
Has anyone here read Toptani? He actually did some "experiments" jumping over poles HIMSELF and deliberately hitting them with his legs, while wearing his boots. (Ouch!) Setting aside the questionable "cruelty" of the nubby plastic type poles... let's get real: Do you think a horse wearing open-fronted boots hitting a nubby plastic pole hurts MORE than solidly hitting a wooden pole? If a horse persistently raps it's shins on a hard wooden pole, using a nubby plastic pole isn't going to make it any more careful, and using a "REAL" tack pole is cruel. Hitting that wooden pole HURTS plenty. Better to convert the horse to doing something for which it is better suited.

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 29, 2004, 08:12 AM
so by your logic all horses should be jumpers until they get smart and figure out that if they rub a pole they get to do dressage? horses that aren't suited to the jumper ring don't get tuned. it's predominately the really good ones that need a little sharpening up from time to time. no one smart wastes their time on a horse who's in the wrong ring.

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

Tha Ridge
Mar. 29, 2004, 09:43 AM
Tardy, that was the best post on this whole topic.

BoR is right - there is not enough time and money to keep a horse that can't jump in the jumper ring. Like it has been repeated maybe 40 times in this topic - horses get lazy, horses need reminders. Simple as that.

I would rather my horse hit hard, nubby plastic rail once than hit wooden rails repeatedly.

- L.

It's all about the act right.

Carol Ames
Mar. 29, 2004, 10:45 AM
Isn't it the stewards' job , at,a show, to be in theschooling area, and put a stop to such things?, and, while we are on the subject,, has any one noticed that when people http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif are using "legal methods to "sharpen" a horse with a bamboo pole as an "offsetset', that,there is always some "trainer", who will pick up the pole, and start hittingsome horsewho is jumping who is jumping in th belly http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gifwho is jumping, and laughing, and hitting., etc.? I have observed this several times,indifferent parts of the country,and, have concluded that some pople are simply "abusive", and,see the horse as their "enemy", http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif i realize that some horses are not "allergic " to wood", and, as I heard Hans Gunterwinkler say once, "Yes, "this a "tyical Irish horse", he needs to be "cracked" once by a pole, and,then he wakes up ,and says " Ah,Now we are jumping http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif"

breeder of Mercury!

remember to enjoy the moment, and take a momento enjoy!, and give thanks for thesewonderful horses in our lives.

[This message was edited by carol Ames on Mar. 29, 2004 at 02:00 PM.]

BLBGP
Mar. 29, 2004, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carol Ames:
there is always some "trainer", who will pick up the pole, and start hittg http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gifinthe belly of some horse who is jumping, and laughing, and hitting., etc.? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hitting a horse in the BELLY over a fence? And laughing? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif At a show? You see this all the time?!? How very odd.

Carol Ames
Mar. 29, 2004, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carol Ames:
there is always some "trainer", who will pick up the pole, and start hittg http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gifinthe belly of some horse who is jumping, and laughing, and hitting., etc.? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hitting a horse in the BELLY over a fence? And laughing? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif At a show? You see this all the time?!? How very odd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IdidNOT say that I saw thisALL the time, only , that,when poling is allowed somone, usually a man , picks up a pole, and hits the horse all over shins, front back, and, while the horse is in the air,and, yes, the belly, usually to the laughter of other men standing herere and , as if he had hit a "softball", " hooray, a hit"I have seen it at schooling shows with NO money involved, and M&S adult amateur classics. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

breeder of Mercury!

remember to enjoy the moment, and take a momento enjoy!, and give thanks for thesewonderful horses in our lives.

[This message was edited by carol Ames on Mar. 29, 2004 at 02:18 PM.]

jumper11
Mar. 29, 2004, 11:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carol Ames:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carol Ames:
there is always some "trainer", who will pick up the pole, and start hittg http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gifinthe belly of some horse who is jumping, and laughing, and hitting., etc.? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hitting a horse in the BELLY over a fence? And laughing? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif At a show? You see this all the time?!? How very odd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IdidNOT say that I saw thisALL the time, only , that,when poling is allowed somone, usually a man , picks up a pole, and hits the horse all over shins, front back, and, while the horse is in the air,and, yes, the belly, usually to the laughter of other men standing herere and , as if he had hit a "softball", " hooray, a hit"I have seen it at schooling shows with NO money involved, and M&S adult amateur classics. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

breeder of Mercury!

remember to enjoy the moment, and take a momento enjoy!, and give thanks for thesewonderful horses in our lives.

[This message was edited by carol Ames on Mar. 29, 2004 at 02:18 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

^^hmm that's strange, but even stranger is your use of punctuation... Im sorry, but I really have a hard time understanding your posts....

Tardy, my hat is off, that was a great post!!

And BTW people, no one is saying poling is a great method of training one's horse we're simply explaining why and how it can be a non-abusive method of tuning, that MANY trainers (not all) use in tuning up their show horses. When done correctly and infrequently, it can be effective....

[This message was edited by jumper11 on Mar. 29, 2004 at 02:56 PM.]

BLBGP
Mar. 29, 2004, 11:54 AM
Jumper11 - Please check her profile. The spelling and punctuation is understandable and in fact very commendable! I was just questioning the belly hitting. I've never seen anything like it. Polling in the belly seems like it would do significantly more harm to the horse's training than good. Can you imagine being the rider, trying to get the horse to go down to the fence a second time with the man brandishing the belly-wacking bamboo pole?! I can't see the training method behind it.

jumper11
Mar. 29, 2004, 11:58 AM
I did not mean to be rude, but it does make it hard to understand the actual point of the person. Is she European? I also didnt' mean to post twice. sorry.

jumper11
Mar. 29, 2004, 12:00 PM
wow, ok, Im an asshole. Sorry Carol ames. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

nails
Mar. 29, 2004, 12:20 PM
Does anyone else think this thread has gone far enough. I don't think we are going to get any more information out of it. I'll bet alot of us learned about methods we don't even know about. However, it seems that it is starting to disintegrate. I fear naming names and name calling next!! Don't flame me I just think we have covered the subject with ALL opinions.

Sandy M
Mar. 29, 2004, 03:25 PM
If a horse PERSISTENTLY hits rails, he will persistently hit rails. Rails hurt more than tack poles (at least the nubbly plastic kind of tack pole), and if actually hitting doesn't "tune 'em up" than a tack pole certainly won't.

I have NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER felt the need to "tune up" my horse(s). Usually, if he did misjudge and hit a pole, that was "tuning up" enough - he generally didn't hit anything else on the rest of the course. If he had continued to hit poles, I'd drop him down a division, or check out if something was bothering him, or, indeed, turn him to dressage (or something discipline). I showed my last Jumper/Eventer in classes up to 4'6", schooled up to 5'6", lest you think I'm talking about flopping around over 3' and dropping down to 2'6".

Mardi
Mar. 29, 2004, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tha Ridge:

Do you really think that trainers are going to subject their very, very expensive horses to pain.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES.

jumperpony_Blaze
Mar. 29, 2004, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My trainers have also been know to tape a row of thumbtacks to our saddle to make sure we are out of the tack enough in the air...theyare sharper than pole tacks, and I've landed on them a few times. It stings, but no lasting pain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

my trainer and i were talking about this yesterday at a horse show, she said it jokingly, but i think its a good idea (for me, you know, to get my @$$ out of the tack) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

&lt;kate the queen of leaning&gt;
~Blaze~
*Tucker*

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 29, 2004, 07:44 PM
i have a stupid question about this thumbtack/saddle/ass thing.


ok, jumperpony, i'm going to assume that you do the jumpers. It's COMPLETELY, FLAGRANTLY, WOEFULLY wrong to remain in a two point throughout a jumper course. While it is no doubt a cardinal sin of the worst degree to flop down on their back in the air, and for that you do deserve a thumbtack in the butt, it can't be teaching correct riding to teach a jumper to go around with their butt out of the tack. Then instead of dropping behind the motion you're teaching the student to lean ahead of it.

Even in the hunters, your seat is, like your legs or hands, used to control the horse. it's actually the most subtle of all of them. if you are coming up short, you are supposed to shorten the strid with your seat so that the judge can see you make an adjustment. how the hell can you do that if your butt is in the air?

I'm so confuzzled.

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

AdultMedals
Mar. 29, 2004, 08:10 PM
Hey, I posted the tack on the saddle thing first. It was just done during gymnastics to practice my position in the air. I ride hunters, jumpers, and eq, so I do normally sit down. I wouldn't try an entire course in a half seat with tacks...I couldn't see that being very fun http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

jumperpony_Blaze
Mar. 29, 2004, 08:17 PM
i would never do more than a quick course(3-5 jumps) with thumbtacks in my saddle. but, i think my trainer was just joking (She teases me about my bad habits sometimes).

&lt;kate the queen of leaning&gt;
~Blaze~
*Tucker*

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 29, 2004, 08:20 PM
ok, i understand a little more..but here's the next stupid question: supposedly, you feel the tacks when you sit down so you know when you're messing up rather than just letting it be muscle memory and "feeling right."

but then how does it actually work when you go back to riding normally? because i personally ride into a gymnastic in a three point, usually, and the people that i've seen not get their butts out of the saddle mostly do so because they are behind the motion, so wouldn't what you need to learn be to stay with the motion of the horse from three point to jumping seat, and not from an artificial two point to jumping seat?

again, feel free to tell me that i'm being stupid, i'm used to it.

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

duct twiner
Mar. 29, 2004, 08:21 PM
hey nails-
bravo ! i agree with you... i had nothing to do with the thread really, havent contributed anything to it. but i have been reading it. i think that the question certainly has been addressed. perphaps its time to move on?

proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!
"lets git er done"
http://community.webshots.com/user/duct_twiner

nails
Mar. 30, 2004, 04:27 AM
duct twiner-Thanks. However from the posts that went on after mine it seems like we are going to keep on with the discussion. Oh well http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Flash44
Mar. 30, 2004, 06:56 AM
You don't have to ride into a grid in 3 point. Why would you? The point of having a grid is to let the jumps/poles do the work of the rider. Ideally, you should be able to shorten or lengthen a horse's stride with small adjustments of hand, leg and hip angle. You don't need your butt in the saddle.

Sannois
Mar. 30, 2004, 09:22 AM
So Ridge Is that how you justify it to yourself?? Cause Everyone else does it??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

Tha Ridge
Mar. 30, 2004, 09:47 AM
No, of course but I don't think it's a bad thing to do if done right and I still believe that every horse needs it occasionally. But, hmm, what do I know? Perhaps every horse I've had wasn't cut-out to be a Hunter or a Jumper... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

- L.

It's all about the act right.

jumper11
Mar. 30, 2004, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sannois:
So Ridge Is that how you justify it to yourself?? Cause Everyone else does it??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the point, which has been beaten to death, is not that everyone does it, but that everyone who does it, does not abuse their horses. People on this BB start claiming people are abusive at the drop of a hat, I think certain people, myself included may only suggest that you consider who you are claiming to be abusive (because of the BNT's who do it).

PiedPiper
Mar. 30, 2004, 10:38 AM
Flash-
I completely agree with you and find this to be very sad. Also on the comment on eventing. A very small number of horses do a three day to where they will be tired the next day and an even smaller portion of that do Rolex. Most eventers do horse trials that can last only one day. Also at a horse trial there is no set order for the jumping portions after dressage. Some do stadium next and others cross country. IMHO I have found that eventers worry more about saving their horses legs and don't over jump them. What I can't understand is why using tacks and other things that cause pain in a way to fine tune the horse but most seem to refuse to go jump solid jumps which tends to help those who brush the jumps. Seems the percentages of "something going wrong" would be about equal. Anyway to each their own but did want my two cents on the comment to the eventer. Found that to be a rude and very misinformed comment. I can tell you my old eventer only ever brought one rail down at a horse trial. May have gotten eliminated cross country but got jumping in the ring! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Grab mane and kick on!
www.shadowgatefarm.com (http://www.shadowgatefarm.com)

Ride'emCO
Mar. 30, 2004, 11:19 AM
Disciplines are not abusive, individuals are abusive. Trashing an entire discipline because of the cruelty of a few is ignorant and rude. IMHO - those I have met in my life, who's horsemanship I would personally strive to exemplify, have all been successful at more than one discipline, and have always used views/training methods from different disciplines to bring their horses along. We've all talked about how Dressage helps a horse become balanced, thereby improving his performance over fences. There was a thread recently where the idea was introduced that riding with a hunter trainer would help with an eventer's stadium round. We all have something to contribute; why the prejudice? It's stupid!

If you must choose between two evils, choose the one that you've
never tried before.

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 30, 2004, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumper11:
People on this BB start claiming people are abusive at the drop of a hat...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

may as well count me in...for i feel ANY intentional infliction of pain upon an animal is abuse.

jumper11
Mar. 30, 2004, 11:53 AM
Have you ever used a crop on your horse seahorsefarms? Or how about spurs? I mean my gosh, a bit could be construed as abusive, Im sure animal rights activists have tried to claim that trying to steer a horse by putting something metal in its mouth, surely must be abusive!!! Jumping a horse over heavy wooden poles is abusive too, because they surely will hit a pole now and then. I mean some of those horses that pack the amateurs around IMO are abused, esp. when they have to bail them out from a bad spot, and get nailed in the mouth/ back.... THat most certainly inflicts pain on the poor beast. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 30, 2004, 12:18 PM
Well, actually no, I haven't ever had to use a stick or spurs on any of my boys...I was fortunate enough to have packers. And, flame suit on, I do find some of the eventing a bit, shall i say, cruel...I mean, just look at some of the crashes...

Black Market Radio
Mar. 30, 2004, 12:20 PM
Oh no, here we go again! (Root)beer anyone?

Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
You have got to be the WORST Pirate I have ever heard of.
Ah, but you HAVE heard of me!

bigbay
Mar. 30, 2004, 12:24 PM
Aw, you ain't seen nothing 'till you've seen the ice flipping crashes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But they usually manage to hang on to their beers.

"It is good to be fine."

wanderlust
Mar. 30, 2004, 12:29 PM
Sorry guys, I'm still stuck on the "thumbtacks on saddles" thing. I think that is RIDER abuse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I've never heard of such a thing... and btw, those little pinprick puncture wounds get infected really easily. I'd hate to have a row of festering pinprick wounds in a line across my ass! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

Ride'emCO
Mar. 30, 2004, 12:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'd hate to have a row of festering pinprick wounds in a line across my ass!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cheers to that! I think if a trainer tried that with me I'd say "YOU FIRST"! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If you must choose between two evils, choose the one that you've
never tried before.

Sandbarhorse
Mar. 30, 2004, 12:35 PM
Well, I've been following this thread and have been amazed at how incredibly well thought out and polite most of the responses have been. I see both sides and won't comment further.

Seahorsefarms - You've always had "packers". I wonder how they got that way? I'd be willing to bet that at some point they experienced a reprimand or two or they wouldn't be the safe packers you ride and handle now.

That's not to say abuse, but you can't defend a position by pretending that "your" packers were born that way, sorry. Young horses need to learn and push the envelope regularly, before they learn what their job is and that responding to aids is not optional.

They hang onto their beers during the ice flipping crashes! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I think I need to take some lessons from them!

tle
Mar. 30, 2004, 12:43 PM
sandbarhorse... I think the key to keeping the beer during the flipping is the type of pantyhose ones wears on their head. Perhaps another adrenaline-junkie, cruel to their horses, doesn't care about crashes eventer could correct me if I'm wrong. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

seahorsefarms... how can you determine the intention of an entire sport based on what is NOT supposed to happen (aka an accident??)?? Talk about short sighted... sheesh!

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 30, 2004, 12:47 PM
I said "SOME", not ALL eventing...and I do know for a act that none of my horses endured any training practices which I consider abusive...
I'm outta this thread...any damn opinion I have is wrong, so it's all yours.

Sandbarhorse
Mar. 30, 2004, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
sandbarhorse... I think the key to keeping the beer during the flipping is the type of pantyhose ones wears on their head. Perhaps another adrenaline-junkie, cruel to their horses, doesn't care about crashes eventer could correct me if I'm wrong. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

seahorsefarms... how can you determine the intention of an entire sport based on what is NOT supposed to happen (aka an accident??)?? Talk about short sighted... sheesh!

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah the pantyhose, that's the key. Here I was thinking I was doing pretty well hanging onto the beer during a slide stop. With the pantyhose, I'd probably be OK, even if we slid right into the wall. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Tha Ridge
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:00 PM
I'm OUTRAGED!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif by the posters, :::cough, cough::: no names, that make themselves seem like gods by claiming that they would never, ever, ever subject their poor "babies" to any type of reprimand.

Seahorsefarms, people aren't saying your opinion is wrong but come on, did you raise your horses from birth to know for sure that they didn't endure "abusive" training...that's so naive of an owner to assume.

- L.

It's all about the act right.

Janet
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:01 PM
I have been biting my tongue for 11 pages and almost a week. And I can't hold it in any more.

Hope this doesn't ramble too much.

It isn't "black and white". There is a wide range of shades of gray.
There is also a BIG difference with
"What I would do with MY horse"
"What other people do that I won't do, but I don't have a big problem with other people doing it"
"What other people do that is just palin WRONG."

For instance, I have serious issues with two of the extremes. Both "ANY intentional infliction of pain upon an animal is abuse" and " RJ did it, so it must be OK for me to do" send up a red flag to me.

Horses in the modern world have evolved to fit a certain niche, which is getting people to be willing to support them. Certain characteristics are needed to fill that niche, and, unfortuante as it may be, those that don't fill that niche end up at the meat auction, or with the "purple shot". Much as we may dislike it, that is reality.

That is why I have major problems with "ANY intentional infliction of pain upon an animal is abuse". If the judicious use of the whip, or a nose chain, or spurs, can make the difference between a naturally dominant horse that is willing to accept human authority (and therefore "fill the niche" and therefore LIVES) and a dominant horse who does NOT accept human authority, becomes a "rogue" and therefore does NOT LIVE, then, in my opinion, the person who refuses to "intentionally inflict pain" isn't doing the horse any favors. In fact, in that instance, the "refusal to inflict ANY pain" can, in itself be MORE abusive. (And that is, of course, quite independant of the fact that many life/health preserving veterinary procedures are painful, anc could fall under teh description of "intentionaly inflicting pain".)

Now to the other extreme, what highly sucessful profesionals do, and what that means for the rest of us.

Every time I have a lame horse that needs some time off (luckily not very often) I tell the vet "I am so glad that my income isn't dependant on a particular horse being sound". Every time we "blow" a competition, I tell myself (or whover is around) "I am so glad that my income isn't dependant on winning ribbons". But the reality is that, for many professionals (and probably most for those who have not yet established a "Big Name"), their income DOES depend on getting horses to the competitions, and winning ribbons. I know of an up and coming profesional who just lost a multi-horse client, in part because s/he "wasn't winning enough". That is REALITY. And if you want to have professionals around to train you and show your horses, you have to accept that reality. Not every rider has the luxury (and it is a luxury) of ignoring "what it takes to win". So the line of "how much is it worth to win" is drawn in a different place for different people. Not just by the person's persoanl opinions, but by the need to pay the hay man, the vet, the farrier and the feed bill.

That being said, it takes a real horseman to know what will work for each horse. For one horse, hitting a (plastic) spike pole is going to convince it that "jumps are scary, they hurt, I don't want to jump any more". For a second horse, it is going to have the effect of "oops, that was a bit more uncomfortable than I expected, I guess it makes sense to pick my feet up a bit". For a third horse, it will have the effect "That felt different, oh well, no big deal, I'll just do the same thing next time".

For the first horse, it backfired- making it stop. For the second horse, it had the desired effect- give the horse an incentive and a reminder to make just a little more effort (assuming the height is well within the horse's capability). For the third horse, it was just a waste of time, no effect.

For the first horse, whether or not it is "abusive", it is just plain poor horsemanship. It didn't work.

For the second horse, it was an effective training technique. Not abusive

For the third horse, it wasn't abusive, but it wasn't effective either.

The question is, what if you escalate from plasctic tacks to metal tacks? My personal opinion is that, if the horse is pulling against a harsh bit, going to a harsher bit isn't going to help, you need to take a different appraoch. If big spurs don't work, going to bigger spurs probably won't help either. If a plastic tack rail doesn't work, a metal tack rail probably won't work either.

But that is my opinion, and it might be wrong. If a trainer CAN get the "horse 2" reaction with a metal spike rail, I wouldn't think it was necessarily abusive. But the risk of getting a "horse 1" response is too great for me to ever want to be even indirectly involved with that approach.

And again, this is all in the context of a horse that is comfortable at those heights, just a litle sloppy. Trying to use any of these techniques to get a horse to jump higher than it is comfortable IS, IMHO, abusie. For a horse to extend itself beyon its "comfort zone" requires "heart", and "heart" doesn't typically respond to these kinds of training techniques.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

jumper11
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:05 PM
Seahorse, The only thing WRONG about your statements is claiming that training practices that some people find useful, are abusive. You are generalizing, and that is never a good thing. If someone knows how to use a method and is trained to use it humanely and effectively, why would you claim that it is abusive just because you do not use the same method?? Just because your horses are made packers, how does that justify you pointing fingers, and claiming that everyone who can't afford horses who are a) as talented and well trained as yours and b)choose to ride with whip and spurs are animal abusers??? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, neither does you being in a sport with animals ( if you are truly an animal rights activist). WHy not just keep your horses in a lush pasture and feed them carrots all day, because surely that is the only truly humane way to own a horse, and you can never, ever ride it because unless you weigh 80lbs. that in itself is inhumane.

Edited to say, excellent post Janet, thanks for contributing your opinion!!

bigbay
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:07 PM
Janet, that was a wonderful post, and worth waiting for. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"It is good to be fine."

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumper11:
WHy not just keep your horses in a lush pasture and feed them carrots all day, because surely that is the only truly humane way to own a horse, and you can never, ever ride it because unless you weigh 80lbs. that in itself is inhumane.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! You MUST know me! Cause that's what I do now!
BTW, I did not mean to insinuate that everyone who rode with bats or spurs was an abuser...I simply said that moi did not...and guess what? my packers were not the uber expensive one you speak of...they were just easily trained, I guess http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hey War ADmiral, where are you when I need a good backup?

GatoGordo
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:15 PM
Tle, it takes diligence and hard work, not just gadgets, to learn how to flip w/o losing your (root)beer. Hours and hours of riding with no stirrups with a row of tacks in the saddle. Pantyhose is only as good as the head it is on. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:18 PM
Let me just ask this question...

Why is it that when someone has a difference of opinion on this board, they get torn to shreads?

ALF
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorsefarms:
Let me just ask this question...

Why is it that when someone has a difference of opinion on this board, they get torn to shreads?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because anyone with a difference of opinion is wrong!

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:29 PM
thank you beat pulp...and this will be my final post (see off course)

jumper11
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:29 PM
well then seahorsefarms, your horse's are truly very fortunate to have you for an owner. But if you only weigh 80 lbs. then eat a steak girl!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You DO show them though, am I right? SO they must still feel some of the stresses that every other show horse does, travel, standing in a 12x12 stall all day, rigorous show schedule etc. Really any owner who shows their horse could then be seen as inflicting different levels of stress/pain on their horses. YOU could be seen as inflicting pain on your horses, just by showing them. So I guess in your definition of animal abuse, anyone who shows their horses or puts undue pressure on them, are animal abusers, including yourself???

Sannois
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:34 PM
From Now on I Vow to mind my own damn business And keep my opinions to my self! And thank you Pied Piper! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And to anyone who thought I was pointing fingers at one person or an entire group, Not what I said! But this thread was trying to die And I think it should be allowed to! I am not the one that got all lathered over most of the posts! I merely made the dumb mistake of opening my Big fat mouth Where it doesn't belong! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif ~ Sannois Tip toes out of Shark infested waters!~ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:34 PM
No, I haven't shown in twenty years...

CBoylen
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I can tell you my old eventer only ever brought one rail down at a horse trial. May have gotten eliminated cross country but got jumping in the ring!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well OBVIOUSLY your horse wasn't cut out to be an event horse. Sorry, just kidding, couldn't resist after all the comments about "unsuited" horses in this thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

jumper11
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:42 PM
Ok, so you have every right to point fingers then, to the entire horse world.

Seahorsefarmtobe
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:46 PM
ya know jumper11, your hostility is making me erp. no one needs this constant attacking and bitching. enjoy your board....I'm gonna find a new place to play (operative word is PLAY)...this used to be a fun and informative board...now it is just plain hostile. sayonarra!

jumper11
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumper11:
Ok, so you have every right to point fingers then, to the entire horse world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do all threads that actually cause debate need to die or get closed?? Im confused because I think this topic, while people have different opinions, has actually been one of the more well thought out and entertaining threads (and not because its catty and rude). JMHO http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jumper11
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorsefarms:
ya know jumper11, your hostility is making me erp. no one needs this constant attacking and bitching. enjoy your board....I'm gonna find a new place to play (operative word is PLAY)...this used to be a fun and informative board...now it is just plain hostile. sayonarra!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
shf, Im not attacking you, Im simply trying to get you to defend your original statement of basically claiming that anyone who inflicts "ANY" type of pain on their horse is abusive. THat is rude and completely off base IMO. sayonarra

Janet
Mar. 30, 2004, 01:53 PM
Not attacking you. Just expresing MY opinion.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Sannois
Mar. 30, 2004, 02:07 PM
Ditto Janet That was very well thought out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

Sannois
Mar. 30, 2004, 02:20 PM
Jumper11 I know I'm a glutten for punishment but I just went back and looked at my posts and not one place did I point fingers! I said Many do it, Its not for me, I think it is more common than many realize. ITs cool if people want to do it and like Janet said it may serve a purpose in the right hands with the right horse. I called no names nor did I say the word abuse in any of my posts! I simply said I wouldnt do it. For the record, I never said Spurs or a bat were abuse. But yes they can be So can a snaffle bit in the wrong hands, But I think that is comparing apples to oranges. JUST MY opinion. After all isn't that what these forums are for Opinions, Not everyone has the same one. I Was never snide in my comments but I recieved some rather snide snotty comments. And I only suggested the thread be allowed to die, as it was already suggested, And It seemed we were beating a DEAD horse! Pun intended! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!