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View Full Version : Trickle down effect? Search for high %'s at low levels...



Ibex
Mar. 17, 2010, 02:45 PM
Over the past couple of years I've seen a trend locally where riders (both pro and AA) are showing their 6-7 yo's at training level, looking to achieve marks at 80%+. Many of these horses are schooling 2nd level, I know first hand of one that has started some 3rd level movements.

I'm not referring to those experienced horses getting their green riders out (heck, I rode an ex-PSG horse at TL, but I was definitely a training level rider), or experienced riders with green horses, I mean cases where horse and rider are capable of more, but instead are going for that super high score.

I always thought that Training level was to get your feet wet and move on to 1st. Is this a trickle down effect from the inflated marks we're seeing at FEI? Everyone feels that 80 is the new 65?

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 17, 2010, 03:33 PM
I was feeling that way too...

Until Ive looked at some better trained horses :)

Ive seen a pony score better than the nicest warmbloods in the lower levels all because of a change in trainers.

What I thought was good connection is so different today than when I was first showing.

Ive seen a million horses of diff breeds go in, inverted, little connection, with a tense rider. I, like everyone else, dropped the standards blaming the lack of availabilty of nicer moving horses, or, judges asking for more than the average rider could give and so on.

Until, I watched several of the same types of horse and rider get good instruction. The horses blossomed, became powerhouses, and the judges couldnt wait to give better scores.

Cowgirl
Mar. 17, 2010, 03:47 PM
A few of us were joking about this last summer, as we have a few local trainers who will back FEI horses that their clients bought down to third level in order to get some scores in the mid-70s. I believe this is for marketing purposes. There are fewer clients out there with the economy the way it is. Impressive show scores get a trainer noticed.

I do have to say, even on a confirmed I-1 horse, getting 72 at third level is not an easy job. Same person backed a grand prix horse down to PSG in order to get high 60s. A few others do it as well.

I also know someone who backed her third level horse down to training level to show it because she has a disability and thought it would be more forgiven at training level. She did get some mid-70s scores on the horse. Personally, I could not have shown my horse at training level when I was schooling 3rd...those flying changes caused alot of excitement for us! LOL! So I was impressed!

I don't think it's any kind of trickle down. At least not here.

One trend I do see, and I don't know if it's a real thing or just my perception: when you show in front of the more experienced judges, the FEI or S judges, the ones who tend to use the full range of scores, you can get a higher score than you'd expect and you can also get a lower score than you'd expect, depending on how it goes. This is in comparison to the judges that stick with 5-6-7. Those judges are the ones who tend to judge the bigger competition, and they will reward excellence--but if you blow it, they are not afraid to give a 1 either. I don't see this as score inflation or deflation; I see it as accurate judging.

And in any case, each of us should only be concerned with what we are doing. You will get further if you focus on yourself and only compete against yourself.

Ibex
Mar. 17, 2010, 03:47 PM
I'm not referring to how fancy the horse is. I'm referring to how well trained it is. These horse/rider combinations would be getting what would have been considered respectable marks up a level, but are instead hanging around TL.

I was always taught that TL is for the green horse or rider, those working through confidence issues etc. Not those wanting to say their horse achieved 80%.

pintopiaffe
Mar. 17, 2010, 03:49 PM
The second level horses are getting rewarded for their collection at TL.

It used to be you actually were penalized for being TOO collected at TL. You'd get comments like 'strides need to be longer, neck needs to be longer' etc. A good hunter would do very well at TL back in the day, as that was the level of acceptance of the bit, frame, etc. that was being looked for in the directives.

Now a medium to collected trot and a collected canter are winning, so that's what everyone goes for.

I'm only speaking from my scribing experience, and from what I'm seeing come into the ring at the teensy little schooling CTs I'm asked to judge.

I think it's partially fallout from the change in horses at lower levels--used to be anything went, as long as it went correctly, now there are so many more purpose bred horses who are born in a very different carriage...

And partly trickle down from BTV at upper levels.

<kevlar zipped>

Melyni
Mar. 17, 2010, 03:54 PM
just a reflection of the improving standards in dressage.
Used to be you got a 50% if you just stayed in the ring, now they actually expect you to show 3 gaits! Go figure! Oh and a sideways scoot no longer counts, darn it!

But seriously what you are seeing is a reflection of the higher number of people involved in the sport and the higher standard of training that is beginning to show.

JMHO

MW

Ibex
Mar. 17, 2010, 04:05 PM
The second level horses are getting rewarded for their collection at TL.

It used to be you actually were penalized for being TOO collected at TL. You'd get comments like 'strides need to be longer, neck needs to be longer' etc. A good hunter would do very well at TL back in the day, as that was the level of acceptance of the bit, frame, etc. that was being looked for in the directives.


Agreed. This is exactly what we're seeing here. The expectation seems to be that TL horses look like GP horses, just doing the TL movements.

A friend had comments on her very correct AA TL test, on a horse with minimal show experience but good training, that it was lacking "sparkle". :confused:

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 17, 2010, 04:15 PM
just a reflection of the improving standards in dressage.
Used to be you got a 50% if you just stayed in the ring, now they actually expect you to show 3 gaits! Go figure! Oh and a sideways scoot no longer counts, darn it!

But seriously what you are seeing is a reflection of the higher number of people involved in the sport and the higher standard of training that is beginning to show.

JMHO

MW

I agree with this, and Ive been a victim of it. HEY? My horses head was sorta down, why's my score so low? lol

Then when a young rider division visited from Canada, ugh, I realized that my own riding was a bit um, how do we say lacking:lol:

There wasnt a horse in the bunch that was "grand prix" material, BUT they all rode to contact and rode well.

mjhco
Mar. 17, 2010, 04:26 PM
Cowgirl, I know of what you speak... ;:lol:

Naja.

As Cowgirl stated, it is best to just worry about what YOU are doing and how YOU are progressing. You cannot control others so why bother trying.

I do know a trainer with a young horse who had NEVER been to a show. TALENTED young horse. And a really steady brain. Brought him out Training level just to get experience at a show and got 80% in his first two tests. Made people talk, it did. Made people say ugly things about 'sand bagging'.

The horse was moved up a level right away after they knew how the horse was going to react to the competition ring.

But those who know more than anyone else still got to speak a great deal of what they did not know.

CHT
Mar. 17, 2010, 04:35 PM
I have also seen riders seem to get stuck at TL because they can't sit their horse's trot to move past that level! So rather than beat themselves up or buy a new horse that they can sit, they just work to keep improving within that level. Different goals for different people!

Coppers mom
Mar. 17, 2010, 04:54 PM
The second level horses are getting rewarded for their collection at TL.

It used to be you actually were penalized for being TOO collected at TL. You'd get comments like 'strides need to be longer, neck needs to be longer' etc. A good hunter would do very well at TL back in the day, as that was the level of acceptance of the bit, frame, etc. that was being looked for in the directives.

Now a medium to collected trot and a collected canter are winning, so that's what everyone goes for.

I'm only speaking from my scribing experience, and from what I'm seeing come into the ring at the teensy little schooling CTs I'm asked to judge.

I think it's partially fallout from the change in horses at lower levels--used to be anything went, as long as it went correctly, now there are so many more purpose bred horses who are born in a very different carriage...

And partly trickle down from BTV at upper levels.

<kevlar zipped>

Yup. I find that a lot of people sand bag in order to just do well. Whatever floats their boat. *shrug*

Sancudo
Mar. 17, 2010, 05:24 PM
I scribe a lot, and see riders get penalized for too collected at training level. I've gotten penalized myself for it, when I was at a Regionals at Training and First level when schooling 2nd some years ago.

Training level- I don't know where I even placed- out of the ribbons. A pony won. I was Reserve at First Level.

I joke that I want to break 80% one day with my guy. He's got multiple 77%s (one was our very first class every, T1) at training, 77% at First, and low 70s at 2nd. But that's never a goal- I just want my bronze!

Cowgirl
Mar. 17, 2010, 05:32 PM
Well the only thing I can agree with about that post is that a few times, at training level, I got comments that my horse was "not uphill enough". This is an incorrect assessment at training level where only a level balance is required. If the horse was on the 4hand, then they should have commented "on 4hand", not "needs to be more uphill". To me, that is plain just bad judging.

Fortunately, I can count my experiences with bad judging in the last three years of showing on one hand.

suzier444
Mar. 17, 2010, 06:49 PM
I don't know about judging standards or what's being rewarded or anything, but I think 7s and 8s are defined as "fairly good" and "good" and that doesn't seem like an excessive goal. I know scores in the 60s are something to be proud of, and better than what I could get, but I also wouldn't fault people for wanting to continue to improve beyond that before tackling new challenges.

I could totally see myself being at training level forever because I cannot get past the semantics issue. :-P

Darko
Mar. 17, 2010, 06:52 PM
I think I know what you are talking about and how you feel. A few years back I had been showing a very green and skittish 5 yr old at Training Level. Mind you this is an Open class. In the same class is a BNT with an up and coming stallion, who at that time was schooling 3rd. I thought it was crazy, and just a cheap way to get this stallion noticed and a few high scores under his belt.

Gry2Yng
Mar. 17, 2010, 09:13 PM
Not sure whether times have changed or I have. 5 years ago, I would have been happy with a 65%, on a young horse. Now I *need* the 70%. As far as sandbagging. Yes, I see it some.

Dressage_Julie
Mar. 18, 2010, 10:41 AM
The second level horses are getting rewarded for their collection at TL.

It used to be you actually were penalized for being TOO collected at TL. You'd get comments like 'strides need to be longer, neck needs to be longer' etc. A good hunter would do very well at TL back in the day, as that was the level of acceptance of the bit, frame, etc. that was being looked for in the directives.
<kevlar zipped>

I have noticed this same thing and it drives me mad! I have a young horse that I competed at Training level last summer. She had been under saddle for just under a year. I was shocked at some of the horses in her class! They were in 2nd level or 3rd level frames. It seems like they are doing the horse a dis-service. There is a reason why you gradually bring the neck up as the horse learns to sit more. The muscles are not doing to develop to the full potential. I miss the days that the frame level matched the level you were showing!

mademoiselle
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:18 AM
Well, I can see both sides of the argument.

I ride a couple of stallions and yes, I wait a little bit longer to show them at a certain level than I would do if I was riding a gelding or a mare.

If you don't get 70%+ on a stallion, good luck trying to market it. People have really high expectations when it comes to scores.

So, last year was my 1st year showing my WB stallion in dressage (he evented as a 4 YO, got a year off at 5 because I was preggo and started to show last year). And yes, his average score for the year was 70%+ with scores in the mid to high 70s by the end of the year.
I'm not sandbagging as I feel that he is one of these horses who is taking forever to mature, but while he is schooling most of the 3rd level stuff right now, he is only going to start showing 2nd level this year.

On the other hand, I would think it would be wrong for him to go back to training level to get scores in the 80s. moving him back one or two levels is not fair. But taking my time to make sure that he looks at his best, is just good marketing.

As far as the frame and what is required, I can also see both sides. my stallion is naturally very uphill and even at a gallop in his pasture he is in a PSG frame, while I have been teaching him to contact and accepting the bit, he will never, never be in a very horizontal long frame (and yes he got 8s on his stretchy circles). But if you watched my test, you would say that he was not in a TL or FL frame more (2nd or 3rd). Well, my goal is to take him FEI and so I kept him where he felt good.

And some judges penalized him for being too collected and uphill. That's fine with me and I didn't complain with the score. They were right.

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:45 AM
And not just with stallions or warmbloods :)

If you ride any breed that is uphill and has a tend to go short in the neck but your good at riding contact, well, your going to look uphill.

Some horses are tense at the shows, and rather than being inverted and flat, the rider CAN put them in a shorter frame asking the neck to still work. Thats just good riding is all.

I dont blame the rider for not trying the longer contact if the horse is not as relaxed as they need it to be for full control...

So, I dont blame the rider for that, AT ALL!

Heinz 57
Mar. 18, 2010, 12:26 PM
Not sure whether times have changed or I have. 5 years ago, I would have been happy with a 65%, on a young horse. Now I *need* the 70%. As far as sandbagging. Yes, I see it some.

I agree with this.

Six years ago, I was THRILLED with the 64% (equivalent) I received at a horse trial. It was my personal high score. I WON and placed very highly on scores that would absolutely disgust a lot of folks today - mid to high 40's (mid to low 50's, in dressage speak). To date, my greatest achievement is a 71.6%, so I have made some improvements ;)

This last weekend, my greenie received a 69% on one of her tests and while that was acceptable, I was not satisfied. I felt that our transitions could have been more prompt, she could have been MUCH steadier in the contact, and that I could have ridden her MUCH straighter than she was. Had we performed the test to *MY* satisfaction, it more than likely would have been a mid-70s score. But I'm not hunting for that high score, thats just the quality of ride I'd like to see in my horse before moving her up.

It gets my goat a little bit that if I want to WIN (yes, I'm aware it is about the score, NOT the ribbon, but I still like to win once in a while!) I'll typically need a mid-70's or better score. A few years ago, I saw a test at an event score an 82%. I don't know if I'm capable of being THAT good! :)

Quest52
Mar. 18, 2010, 01:06 PM
I find this to be true many times as well.

It does make me feel hopeful when I see things like this though:
http://dressagedaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5016:tokyo-and-ryan-yap-win-highlife-cup-at-wellington-classic-dressage-challenge-ii&catid=307:10dif&Itemid=420

A wonderful rider, Ryan Yap, and a wonderful Dutch horse, Tokyo get the high life award for getting an incredible score of a 74% but in 4th level. It gets a bit old sometimes when high point awards go to the training level, or first level ride that is a horse that is schooled PSG at home, and has shown such.

Wonderful!

SillyHorse
Mar. 18, 2010, 01:16 PM
What a bunch of sour grapes. If a horse is schooling second level, it has every legitimate right to show at training level. Most people I know are schooling two levels above where they're showing. It's quite common, and it's a good practice. And besides, how does that horse's score affect yours?

Ibex
Mar. 18, 2010, 01:51 PM
What a bunch of sour grapes. If a horse is schooling second level, it has every legitimate right to show at training level. Most people I know are schooling two levels above where they're showing. It's quite common, and it's a good practice. And besides, how does that horse's score affect yours?

And here we have the problem. Showing one level below what you're schooling is good, at two levels you're bordering into sandbagging and ribbon hunting. Go challenge yourself. First level is not that hard. If you can't do a first level test, I'd question why you're schooling second (by which I mean truly schooling second, not just a bit of SI and some W/C transitions.).

For the rest of us who try to show at the right level, it's discouraging. You go out with a horse correctly trained to the level at which it's showing, and end up feeling really stupid because you're not at the same level as a third level horse. I ride with someone who flat out refuses to show any more for this very reason.

I'd personally like to see people forcibly evicted from the lower levels, especially from TL.

mjhco
Mar. 18, 2010, 02:43 PM
And here we have the problem. Showing one level below what you're schooling is good, at two levels you're bordering into sandbagging and ribbon hunting. Go challenge yourself. First level is not that hard. If you can't do a first level test, I'd question why you're schooling second (by which I mean truly schooling second, not just a bit of SI and some W/C transitions.).

For the rest of us who try to show at the right level, it's discouraging. You go out with a horse correctly trained to the level at which it's showing, and end up feeling really stupid because you're not at the same level as a third level horse. I ride with someone who flat out refuses to show any more for this very reason.

I'd personally like to see people forcibly evicted from the lower levels, especially from TL.

Why are you allowing someone else (another horse and rider) to make YOU FEEL stupid. You are in control of your 'feelings'. Not anyone else.

You are in control of how you and your horse perform. No one else.

Why put the blame on others?

Dressage_Julie
Mar. 18, 2010, 02:46 PM
What a bunch of sour grapes. If a horse is schooling second level, it has every legitimate right to show at training level. Most people I know are schooling two levels above where they're showing. It's quite common, and it's a good practice. And besides, how does that horse's score affect yours?

School as high as you want at home, but when riding lower levels in a show it should be in the correct frame, otherwise it is wrong and points should be deducted not added. :D

Vesper Sparrow
Mar. 18, 2010, 02:50 PM
What a bunch of sour grapes. If a horse is schooling second level, it has every legitimate right to show at training level. Most people I know are schooling two levels above where they're showing. It's quite common, and it's a good practice. And besides, how does that horse's score affect yours?

It's unsportsmanlike. It would be like me taking my old mare, who couldn't get back on her hocks enough to do first level but could do an average Training Level test, and putting her back in Intro with all the greenies and beginning riders just to get a high score and a ribbon.

SaddleFitterVA
Mar. 18, 2010, 02:54 PM
So, if you are schooling two levels above what you are showing, what exactly should you be schooling when you get to Grand Prix?

I understand the concept of schooling higher than you are showing, as it IS a show, but 2 levels?

I still have a problem translating the scores 7 = Fairly Good and 8 = good, and so few being awarded. Or, are the score "inflation" complaints actually recognizing that fairly good should not be perfection.

Because really, if someone gets all 8's, they are ecstatic (at least most mortals). That ride is generally described as superb, awesome, etc. Not "good". And, in all truth, a ride that has 80%, there were likely a handful of 9s (very good), possibly a 10 (excellent) or two, and a handful of 7s.

The adjectives that are paired with the numbers make a score of 70 sound not so good. "It was fairly good" is not what the beaming rider usually feels when they get over 70.

In the end, it doesn't really matter to me, now that I've learned to go compare how a judge scores across the board and that most judges do not use the full scale. I ride for my own enjoyment and pleasure. I go to shows so long as it is fun, and winning ribbons is also nice, but I collect score sheets to compare later, not the ribbons.

At least they changed 5 to "Marginal" from "Sufficient".

Gloria
Mar. 18, 2010, 03:29 PM
Umm the only fair show in my eyes is,

. No horse taller than my pony (14.3 hand. How can they bring those 18 hands monster blood to my show to make me feel so darn dwarfed and overwhelmed?).
. No horse fancier than mine (won't tell you how much I paid for him)
. No rider taller than my swatty self (5'3").
. No horse ridden by amateur trained by pros (how fair is it? I ride/train myself).
. No rider skinnier and more elegant than my clumsy self (what are those skinny teenage girls there for?)
. No rider who has ridden longer than me (are you kidding me? Those girls have showed longer than I have ridden:eek:)

Schooling 2 levels above the level shown? Well some people are more conservative and they don't want to feel slighted. they want ribbons? Sure.. I do too so how can I blame them?

Sandy M
Mar. 18, 2010, 03:45 PM
Ummm. don't know about showing the higher level horse at lower levels. It's really a "depends on" situation: how much prior experience has the rider? Is the horse coming off a layoff and needs to do something less demanding for while? Even if the horse is a schoolmaster, how long has the rider had it? Must we require that someone buying a schoolmaster cease showing until they have reached the level of the horse?

On the other hand, yeah, someone who IS pretty experienced and has a higher level horse that they CAN ride well, but sticks to lower levels because the ribbons come easier...not so nice.

On the third hand: I have long since accepted that if you want to "win" at Training Level, you better be showing the directives of 1st level; if you want to win at 1st level, you'd better be showing the directives of 2nd level (You're not supposed to show collection at 1st level? - yeah, tell it to the judge(s)! They reward collection at 1st level), etc., etc. Only ONCE in umpty-ump years of showing have I ever had a judge comment on the test that the horse was incorrect in showing the collection/degree of acceptance/whatever you choose...of a higher level. Unfortunately, I can't remember who that was. It was a Dr. somebody, and he's long since retired/deceased, I believe. It was training level, and he commented that the degree of "on the bitness" (can't remember his exact words) was incorrect for a training level horse - that the frame should have been longer, more stretched, etc. *shrug* It was still a decent score (64%, as I recall, but there were two judges and the other judge gave a 68% for the same test -so I guess he did "knock me down" a little for it).

Donkey
Mar. 18, 2010, 04:14 PM
Why care about ribbons? Or the scores of others?

If ribbons are important to you, lobby for more divisions - maiden classes and such. Or stick around a little longer and wait until you are winning your divisions before moving up - a common practice in all disciplines.

I agree, sour grapes.

SillyHorse
Mar. 18, 2010, 08:48 PM
And here we have the problem. Showing one level below what you're schooling is good, at two levels you're bordering into sandbagging and ribbon hunting. Go challenge yourself. First level is not that hard. If you can't do a first level test, I'd question why you're schooling second (by which I mean truly schooling second, not just a bit of SI and some W/C transitions.).

For the rest of us who try to show at the right level, it's discouraging. You go out with a horse correctly trained to the level at which it's showing, and end up feeling really stupid because you're not at the same level as a third level horse. I ride with someone who flat out refuses to show any more for this very reason.

I'd personally like to see people forcibly evicted from the lower levels, especially from TL.
Wow, you sound bitter. It's your choice to trot down the center line less prepared than those who wait until they're schooling two levels higher than they're showing. They feel they are showing at the "right" level, whether you do or not. Like I said, it's your choice to be less prepared.

meupatdoes
Mar. 18, 2010, 09:42 PM
Wow, you sound bitter. It's your choice to trot down the center line less prepared than those who wait until they're schooling two levels higher than they're showing. They feel they are showing at the "right" level, whether you do or not. Like I said, it's your choice to be less prepared.

Exactly.
I have had people tell me, "Oh, just go out and give 3rd a go! You can blow a movement (i.e. the half pass, pff!) and still be fine! And so what if you get a 58? Learn from the comments!"


Well, I don't like to go in the ring piloting my poor horse (who for the record knows what the show ring means, has an ego, and does not go in the show ring to dilly around) until I can do so respectably in a manner that isn't wasting his time and effort. Especially for what rated shows cost. If I want to learn from the comments I can take a lesson.

My plan is to save up my pennies, lesson lesson lesson, school school school, do some schooling shows to see where we're at (and if we aren't well into the 60s we keep practicing until we are before we go rated) and then when I feel we can walk in the ring and march out with a 65% at 3rd level THEN we will go to one of those rated shows that is two shows in one weekend, ride 3rd 3rd 2nd one day and 2nd 1st 1st the next and go for the bronze. Saves trailering, stabling, and time.

If the person going against us on 1st level day wants to bitch, oh well. They will get the same score they are going to get whether my horse goes in the ring 6 minutes before theirs or not.

Gry2Yng
Mar. 18, 2010, 09:57 PM
Exactly.
when I feel we can walk in the ring and march out with a 65% at 3rd level THEN we will go to one of those rated shows that is two shows in one weekend, ride 3rd 3rd 2nd one day and 2nd 1st 1st the next and go for the bronze. Saves trailering, stabling, and time.

If the person going against us on 1st level day wants to bitch, oh well. They will get the same score they are going to get whether my horse goes in the ring 6 minutes before theirs or not.

True enough. Just curious, tho, why would you do the 1st level tests? I am being sincere.

ETA: Sorry, I see now, you are trying to get the bronze in one weekend. Personally, I need a few shows to get my ring craft down pat on a horse, but more power to you if you can do that. never thought of it.

Ibex
Mar. 18, 2010, 10:19 PM
True enough. Just curious, tho, why would you do the 1st level tests? I am being sincere.

ETA: Sorry, I see now, you are trying to get the bronze in one weekend. Personally, I need a few shows to get my ring craft down pat on a horse, but more power to you if you can do that. never thought of it.

I'd never thought of that. Good grief. Talk about defeating the purpose.

Sorry folks, no sour grapes. I was originally genuinely curious about why you would choose stay at a lower level than you're fully capable of competing at, and now I have my answer: you want ribbons and bragging rights on high scores. :no:

(My apologies to those with legitimate reasons for showing at lower levels for good reason, I don't include you in this category)

Gry2Yng
Mar. 18, 2010, 10:25 PM
(My apologies to those with legitimate reasons for showing at lower levels for good reason, I don't include you in this category)

Sorry, are you speaking to me? I am not doing or advocating riding three levels at one show. I am also not sure what is wrong with trying to save some money and get your bronze medal scores in one weekend if you can do it.

Ibex
Mar. 18, 2010, 10:34 PM
Sorry, are you speaking to me? I am not doing or advocating riding three levels at one show. I am also not sure what is wrong with trying to save some money and get your bronze medal scores in one weekend if you can do it.

Sorry, no! Was referencing those who stay at a lower level to work through real training or confidence issues.

meupatdoes
Mar. 18, 2010, 10:47 PM
Yeah, I am kind of confused how it "defeats the purpose" as well...?

Spreading it out over 6 rated shows at $500 minimum a pop just for the sake of spreading it out and keeping our level of preparation suitably low such that we are "hoping the judge looks away during the half pass" and we squeak by with a 60.2 is the purpose? I mean, why spend $1,000 when you can spend $3,000 and eventually squeak by, right?

If spreading it out is so important to you then by all means feel free to fork over the extra "spreading it out cash". Drive the trailer six times instead of once. You get to braid. If you pay and haul we can ride around the ring getting ten scores at First seven at Second and maybe even a milestone 58 at 3rd in pursuit of The Purpose.

The bronze will still only happen when the 3rd is good and ready whether we do our first level scores ten times over and score a few $500 58s (which apparently are The Purpose?) in the meantime or not.

Mary in Area 1
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:02 PM
I find this to be true many times as well.

It does make me feel hopeful when I see things like this though:
http://dressagedaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5016:tokyo-and-ryan-yap-win-highlife-cup-at-wellington-classic-dressage-challenge-ii&catid=307:10dif&Itemid=420

A wonderful rider, Ryan Yap, and a wonderful Dutch horse, Tokyo get the high life award for getting an incredible score of a 74% but in 4th level. It gets a bit old sometimes when high point awards go to the training level, or first level ride that is a horse that is schooled PSG at home, and has shown such.

Wonderful!

Except that this horse is EXACTLY the type of horse you are all complaining about! Renee has owned this horse for many years, and Jane Karol had the horse in training for much of that time. Jane showed the horse at PSG many times.

So why are we applauding this high score by a horse who has clearly been "backed down"?????

Donkey
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:13 PM
Sorry folks, no sour grapes. I was originally genuinely curious about why you would choose stay at a lower level than you're fully capable of competing at, and now I have my answer: you want ribbons and bragging rights on high scores. :no:



It is called a competition :rolleyes: don't be such a sore loser.

And maybe, just maybe, they also just want to ride a GOOD test. :rolleyes:

If your standards aren't meshing with your local competition perhaps you should re-evaluate them.

Quest52
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:14 PM
Except that this horse is EXACTLY the type of horse you are all complaining about! Renee has owned this horse for many years, and Jane Karol had the horse in training for much of that time. Jane showed the horse at PSG many times.

So why are we applauding this high score by a horse who has clearly been "backed down"?????

Tokyo... 61% at First Level 1 in 2003, 66% PSG in 2007, 64% PSG 2008, 56% developing horse test in 2008..

I wouldn't say this is "exactly the type of horse we're talking about" From the past scores of this horse it seems as though he's riding at the level he is at. I see no incredible scores at PSG, and not a single score at I2 or Grand Prix... which is what I feel we ARE talking about here. Horses that are 4th level horses with competent riders being shown at 1st level. If a horse is ridden in PSG and 4th, that seems permissible and understandable... one level movement.... but 2, 3, 4 levels?? Thats not Tokyo.

Ibex
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:21 PM
It is called a competition :rolleyes: don't be such a sore loser.

And maybe, just maybe, they also just want to ride a GOOD test. :rolleyes:

Given that I haven't shown in two years, and when I did I did well at the level I was legitimately in (horse was experienced, I was certainly not), it's not sour grapes ;)

I've had my honest question answered, I just don't love the answer. :no:

meupatdoes
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:27 PM
Given that I haven't shown in two years, and when I did I did well at the level I was legitimately in (horse was experienced, I was certainly not), it's not sour grapes ;)

I've had my honest question answered, I just don't love the answer. :no:

Cue the new thread where someone starts moaning and groaning that you went in on a schoolmaster and piloted adequately and did well this is completely unfair because they the poor schleps had to "do well" on a horse they trained off the track with no indoor, a bad climate and a Troxel helmet from the 80s. Plus they live in a bad dressage area, their husband is unsupportive and no clinicians want to come to North Dakota.

It isn't FAIR that some people get to get their feet wet on horses that have been there done that levels and levels ago and other people have to INSTALL everything before they can go to a show. Wouldn't it be nice if someone could just throw them a made horse so they could bang out their scores and be done with it.

People should only be allowed to campaign horses they purchased as unbroke 3yos, they should not be allowed to have a trainer do training rides and they should be limited to one lesson per week MAX. When that 3yo is doing First Level and keeping its four feet on the ground past the hot dog stand well then we can see about showing and we'll just see what is "fair" now.

And so on and so forth.

Ibex
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:33 PM
Cue the new thread where someone starts moaning and groaning that you went in on a schoolmaster and piloted adequately and did well this is completely unfair because they the poor schleps had to "do well" on a horse they trained off the track with no indoor, a bad climate and a Troxel helmet from the 80s.

It isn't FAIR that some people get to get their feet wet on horses that have been there done that levels and levels ago and other people have to INSTALL everything before they can go to a show. Wouldn't it be nice if someone could just throw them a made horse so they could bang out their scores and be done with it.


And so on and so forth.

I was on an 18yo mare with a funky gait due to an old injury and zero tolerance for bad riding. Trust me, we earned it. :cool:

And this year, I WILL be on that baby trying to keep their feet on the ground and no expectation of decent scores. The entire question was based on observations from a show I was at.

Peace out.

Donkey
Mar. 18, 2010, 11:35 PM
Given that I haven't shown in two years, and when I did I did well at the level I was legitimately in (horse was experienced, I was certainly not), it's not sour grapes ;)

I've had my honest question answered, I just don't love the answer. :no:

Wow. I've read every response on this thread and that's not what I took away from it. The only responses on this thread saying the motivation is for the ribbons are the ones accusing their competition of unjust behavior (like yourself) and not the ones who have given you an explanation on their own reasoning. Talk about selective reading.

TropicalStorm
Mar. 19, 2010, 01:17 PM
Agreed. This is exactly what we're seeing here. The expectation seems to be that TL horses look like GP horses, just doing the TL movements.

A friend had comments on her very correct AA TL test, on a horse with minimal show experience but good training, that it was lacking "sparkle". :confused:

Clearly, she should be riding a Gypsy Vanner then. :D

narcisco
Mar. 19, 2010, 06:57 PM
Many, many people are going for year end awards, either for their GMO, or for national horse of the year or all-breeds awards. They will stay at a lower level to garner the scores and win the awards. This raises the value of any horse who might later be re-sold. It also enhances the trainer's reputation.

In pool, we call them sandbaggers and in dressage score whores :)

It is part of competition, and the only way around it in dressage is to have horse and rider teams "place out" of levels as they do in Europe.