unauthorized vet services [Archive]

Blue Moon

Sep. 3, 2004, 12:04 AM

I too have had that happen to me. I agree they are just trying to help, but they should have asked first. But, the one that takes the cake is a few years back when a vet actually put a Caslick in one of my mares without even asking me first! Can you imagine a vet that would perform any optional surgery, no matter how minor, without permission?!? This was a young, healthy, fertile mare with perfect conformation "back there" and there was absolutely NO reason whatsoever for her to need a Caslick. The only reason I could see for them to do it was to get more $$ from me! I know that some vets believe that all mares should be Caslicked but I was horrified that they would do such a thing without asking. Of course, "once a Caslick, always a Caslick", so just imagine the $$$ and aggravation they have caused me throughout the rest of this mare's reproductive life -- which will likely be another 10-15 years! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

sprucie

Sep. 3, 2004, 01:18 AM

Bluemoon, I have a mare that had a caslicks in place when I got her because she came from the track. Her conformation is good "back there", and I had it removed when she was bred. She's had no issues since, and produced a lovely healthy colt this year.

Tazz

Sep. 3, 2004, 03:49 AM

Blue Moon and sprucie,
I also had a mare that had a Caslick's done without my knowledge or permission. She was also a young mare with perfect conformation "back there" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and I found out when I picked her up and saw it! I later found out that this particular vet also did it as a matter of "procedure" on a great many mares.

Tazz

Sep. 3, 2004, 03:54 AM

Oakleigh, the mare is a 16 hand Hanoverian so definitely not a pony http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

IronwoodFarm

Sep. 3, 2004, 04:38 AM

I know this has been an upsetting experience, but I would treat it as a well-intended action with bungled communication. What you want to do is straighten up the communication process now so that when something more serious happens, you do get more timely notice.

My vet routinely checks progesterone level when ultrasounding at the first pregnancy check. I have had one mare reabsorb, but also have had maiden mares with low progestrone. I'm sure you agree that it costs more money and hassle going back and rebreeding than it does keeping the pregnancy. This year I have a virtual pipeline to the Regumate factory. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

So my guess is that the vet did the blood test as part of his standard of care. He saw something he wasn't happy with in the ultrasound and wants to look again. My vet has done the same thing with one of my mares. Since my vet doesn't push tests or procedures without reason, I value his judgment.

Frankly, I would keep your mare on Regumate and have her rechecked as the vet suggests. That's pretty sound advice.

I don't know what your board agreement states, but since you are new, this would be a good time to ask specifically how notification for veterinary or farrier care works. I have boarders and my contract says that we will provide emergency care even if we cannot reach the owner. On anything else, we ask first. You should be clear about what you want done for non-emergency care.

Part of the complication is that your barn owner is a vet -- he can prescribe and provide the meds on the spot. That's a real plus, but the decision to medicate in a non-emergency is entirely the horse owner's, IMHO.

Tazz

Sep. 3, 2004, 04:54 AM

Yes, the board agreement is very clear and only has a clause pertaining to life threatening emergency care (they will act and notify me as soon as possible). This is very reasonable as I would never deny my horse emergency care. This, however, does not fall into the emergency care category. Vaccinations and deworming get done as per their schedule which is pretty standard and reasonable since these things are important to the health and well being of all the other horses on their property. I am hoping it is just a communication error on their part.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 3, 2004, 06:23 AM

When someone brings their mare here for me to breed, there is an understanding that we should do what is vet recommended to give the mare the best chance of becoming pregnant and maintaining that pregnancy. If not, why bother? In these mares, I am keeping the mare owner updated, but there are times that if you know what is needed, you don't want the owner to have to pay for another call to get it done. Or in the case of the mare we have here, risk losing the pregnancy in minutes/hours/days. It costs WAY too much per breeding cycle IMO to NOT quickly respond to a finding. A few days of Regumate, and a blood test will only be about $25.00. I ALWAYS call the owner first in the case of large amounts of money, but if it is something that the vet thinks needs to be done - $50 - $100., we go ahead.

Tazz

Sep. 3, 2004, 06:45 AM

Fairview, I agree however, in this particular case, the mare is there for temporary boarding only until we move to our new farm. They had nothing to do with her breeding etc. and if the mare looses the foal, well, I will not be rebreeding her anyway due to the time of year. The money is definitely not the issue in this case.

Janet

Sep. 3, 2004, 07:11 AM

Are they billing you for unauthorized services, or doing it on their own nickel?

munchkin

Sep. 3, 2004, 07:41 AM

Hi

This is a very tough question. If it were me (take that with a grain of salt) and having a mare that took several tries AI to get in foal and is now on progesterone, I would be thanking the vet profusely. We dont know all the details therefore we arent sure if any communication was attempted or if the vet didnt let the clinic know to call you until right before you called. Trust me this happens, they are busy and dont always let the staff know to inform you. My curiosity is peaked as living in Ontario Im curious to what vet this is, as I know a few here. If you feel that this was not appropriate actions on the vets part then by all means talk to him/her about who is covering the bill.

Good Luck

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 3, 2004, 07:47 AM

So you would not have wanted them to spend $25.00 to save the investment you have already made into the pregnancy? Would they have had any reason to believe that this was a pregnancy that if found, you wouldn't have cared about maintaining?

I agree that you should have been contacted as soon as possible, but I do think that if they found very poor uterine tone, it could have been considered an emergency situation for the foal. HOWEVER, if we felt the pregnancy was in trouble (as in emergency), we would not have waited for blood test results to begin Regumate. If they had time to run a test, they had time to contact you. In cases like that, I may ask the vet to go ahead and pull the blood, while they are there, and hold it (cost of a tube) until I can contact the owner to get permission to send it off for testing - saves a vet call. I pass on as much information as I can to the mare owner as soon as possible. I don't want owners blindsided by a large vet bill.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 3, 2004, 08:03 AM

My other thought is that I would probably go ahead and put a mare with very poor uterine tone on the Regumate, and recheck about day 28 to make sure the pregnancy was still ok. I would probably not blood test early as I would wait for a bit to give the secondary cls a chance to "help", and then do a progesterone essay. Progesterone can be drastically different at different times of the day. There certainly would have been plenty of time to contact you for approval. The key to me though would be if she had very poor uterine tone. I would do something to "save" the pregnancy.

aurum

Sep. 3, 2004, 08:13 AM

I have an older Trakehner mare that had a very bad biopsy three years ago. She had lost a foal in 1995 due to an accident and since then never got back in foal. I have not given up as she has a famous bloodline and after years of trying to get her in foal each year without success I had that biopsy done which ruined the rest of my hopes. But I continued with own stallions to not lose any more money and this year the TB stallion from the USA, Glitter of Gold, got her in foal after 8 years of nothing! Now the vet recommended to give her 10 ml of Regumate each day which I am doing.

I agree that the owner of a horse MUST be asked up front for medication but in this case any day might have been okay that did not lose time. So I would make myself clear but if the pregnancy holds I would be very happy too.

Piaffe~Passage

Sep. 3, 2004, 08:25 AM

Someone already mentioned about the fact that 5cc's of Regumate isn't going to do anything to a 16 Hand mare. Yes they did do there job, but you should have been contacted FIRST to make sure it was ok

aurum

Sep. 3, 2004, 08:39 AM

no 5 cc's is not enough it must be 10 cc or ml

graystonefarm

Sep. 3, 2004, 08:49 AM

Personally, I would be thrilled to have someone like that take charge and take all necessary precautions to help my mare maintain a healthy pregnancy. Is it possible you misunderstood about the Regumate dosage? I agree with the other posters about the Regumate. If she IS/WAS only getting 5cc's, that's not enough. That would concern me more than the vet not contacting me prior to treating my mare.

My vet always checks the progesterone levels. It's Much cheaper than a mare losing a pregnancy.

If it were me, and the Regumate was the correct dosage, I would say THANK YOU for taking such good care of my pregnant mare!

Ashemont

Sep. 3, 2004, 10:07 AM

So why exactly did they not CALL you before doing anything other than what you asked??? I'm sorry but I would be refusing to pay for unauthorized services, unless this was a vet I planned to use in the future (and after an incident like this that would be highly unlikely).

Unless they tested the mare's progresterone level several times throughout the day the vet honestly cannot say that her levels were low because it FLUCTUATES. So one test does not the story tell. And, as already pointed out, 5 cc. of Regumate just isn't going to get the job done anyway.

This is very sloppy vet work IMO and since the horse was boarded I would've expected the barn owner to step in and ask the vet to wait until the owner could be contacted before doing any more than what was requested. This was not a life-threatening situation which required immediate attention.

Edited for bad grammar http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

whitehorse

Sep. 3, 2004, 10:33 AM

I agree with Sherry, given the poor uterine tone. The use of Regu-mate is so common in that circumstance, I can easily see (from the vet's point of view) that it could look like negligence, if he had done nothing!
I would try to find out why they didn't call, though, and if the dose is correct.

Oakleigh

Sep. 3, 2004, 03:36 PM

As I said earlier, 5 cc of Regumate is not enough to have a clinical effect. The mare, I see, is 16 hands. The dose that was given would be effective only on a 500 pound mare. I would hope the mare weighs more than 500 pounds...

Oakleigh

Tazz

Sep. 3, 2004, 04:31 PM

This mare most certainly weighs more than 500 lbs.! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Okay, we telephoned them this morning and here is the update:
We were not contacted because they assumed that it was not necessary since it is standard procedure for them. The mare had normal uterine tone and her progesterone level was just slightly lower than normal at 15.7 (15.9 is normal). This vet clearly stated that they put ALL mares on Regumate if they have a progesterone level under 17 (no reason was given). Only one blood test was taken. Vet recommended 5 cc's of Regumate because her levels were just very slightly under the normal range. I clearly explained that all non emergency (life threatening) medical procedures are to be discussed with me beforehand.

Ashemont

Sep. 3, 2004, 06:26 PM

Well we all know about 'assume' ... just because it was SOP for the vet does not mean they had the right to do anything more than what was requested without prior approval. Period. And since progesterone levels fluctuate during the course of a day - and since your mare was just BARELY under normal - I really think the Regumate was uncalled for. Good thing for the vet it wasn't MY mare.

But it's good that you now have a clear understanding with the vet. Good for you!

Tazz

Sep. 3, 2004, 06:40 PM

Ashemont, I completely agree. I definitely did not expect this nonsense!

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 3, 2004, 06:55 PM

I agree. With normal tone, there was no reason to do anything but what you requested. The vet was totally out of line. Just make sure you wean from the Regumate gradually.

Cartier

Sep. 4, 2004, 08:30 AM

Tazz wrote<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> ... But, the one that takes the cake is a few years back when a vet actually put a Caslick in one of my mares without even asking me first! Can you imagine a vet that would perform any optional surgery, no matter how minor, without permission?!? This was a young, healthy, fertile mare with perfect conformation "back there" and there was absolutely NO reason whatsoever for her to need a Caslick. The only reason I could see for them to do it was to get more $$ from me! I know that some vets believe that all mares should be Caslicked but I was horrified that they would do such a thing without asking. Of course, "once a Caslick, always a Caslick", so just imagine the $$$ and aggravation they have caused me throughout the rest of this mare's reproductive life -- which will likely be another 10-15 years! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Last year we had one of our mares at a breeding farm to be bred. Because of the EVA status of the stallion, she had to be quarantined at the breeding farm before and after being bred… and she did not take on the first cycle.. in all she was at the breeding farm from April through August. Without our knowledge or consent the farm’s vet did a Caslick’s on our mare in May. We were never told about it by the farm or the vet and it did not appear on the vet’s bill (and this guy charged for EVERYTHING, he was by far the MOST expensive vet we have used for breeding. We have done frozen semen and a frozen semen ET with this mare for less).

Anyway, the Caslick had completely healed by the time we got our mare back in August. It was not noticeable. Subsequent vets who saw the mare for inoculations etc. either did not notice the Caslicks or did not know that we did not know about the Caslick.

AS a result the Caslick’s was NOT opened before our precious beautiful mare foaled. She literally tore herself to shreds foaling. Still, through all the pain she was a loving and devoted mother. IT was 6 weeks before she healed. (We missed a breeding cycle in which we'd planned to do a second ET. Long story but this mare is old and we wanted as many foals as possible this year.)

At first the vet admitted that he was responsible because he had not notified us. HE attributed it to an error with his office staff in transcribing his field notes. (We incurred vet bills to repair the tearing and other expenses and were willing to settle the matter very reasonably, i.e. vet bills to repair the tear and slighlty less that half the cost of the ET foal we missed in the one cycle.. rougly $7K). By the time the vet’s insurance agent contacted us, the vet was singing a different tune, saying he had told us about the Caslicks (even though the procedure does NOT appear anywhere in his billing and this guy doesn’t even shake hands for free) The whole experience was sickening… especially the vet’s inference that we should be so pleased to have the foal (from this stallion) that our mare was basically insignificant.

I have a daughter… her's was a planned home birth. I know about unmedicated child birth. But trying to give birth while sewn shut is... well it is ...

I can’t really put it into words except to say that I’d like to sew that vet's _ _ _ shut and have him try to pass a basket ball. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Tazz

Sep. 4, 2004, 06:04 PM

Oh, your poor mare! What a terrible thing to happen to her. It certainly makes what happened to my mare seem trivial.

Thanks for mentioning this as it's a good thing for owners to check their mares to see if they were Caslicked without their knowledge. Hopefully this can prevent such a terrible event from happening.

Cartier

Sep. 5, 2004, 02:42 AM

People can miss a Caslick’s, especially when they are not looking for it. The mare in question was 21 years old, she had had several foals, including the 2003 filly at her side. She had never had a Caslick’s before and we had no knowledge that the farm’s vet had done the procedure. IT was not on the vet's bill, not on any of the paper work from the farm, and NEVER ever mentioned in any communication (and there was plenty of communication with both the farm and the vet right up until about a week before our mare foaled). There was never any mention of the Caslick’s, never anything like, “Hey, when are you going to have it opened? It must be done XYZ weeks before she foals." ...never anything at all. These folks never said a word.

We’d looked at that area many times, while bathing her, and in December a third vet had checked her to confirm she was in foal, but in his examination of her, he stood to the side and reached an arm in. He never actually examined the area specifically looking for the Caslick’s. He said later he did not recall seeing it, but that even if he had seen it he had no way to know that we did NOT know about it.

Majestic Gaits

Sep. 5, 2004, 03:37 AM

When we are foaling our own mares, I always check them a month before to make sure they don't have a caslick. Records or not, we just make sure they are all ready for birth. That is horrible that happened.

We often put our marginal mares on low doses of progesterone. I had a young mare that took me 5 times to get in foal and I put her on 5ccs of progesterone 5 days after being bred and she is now in foal. She continues to test slightly low so the vet has kept your on the low doses. It is common with many vets to do this and it has worked for me.

It is strange that the vet did a test when they didn't have anything to provoke it. I hate when they do stuff just to do it and cost us breeders more money. Like doing caslicks on all of them, it is not necessary. That would be like taking everyone's appendix out because we don't need it. Ridiculous.

I am glad I have a good vet. I know it is not possible for all owners to be there when their vet check's their mare, but if they can't they should either give the responsibility of decisions to the person boarding/attending or be available by phone. A lot can happen or come up during an ultrasound including that they look like they might have infections, etc. If they are in heat a lot of the vets will need to do a culture right them and maybe flush them. My vet is busy and when timing is right to have something done then, I need to do it.

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com (http://www.majesticgaits.com)

graystonefarm

Sep. 5, 2004, 07:25 AM

It's my understanding that an aged mare after having several foals most likely would need a caslicks. I acquired a mare just this year like that.

I always check my mares as well. If the mare has caslicks, it should be obvious after the mare's muscles start to relax and the vulva starts to elongate.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 5, 2004, 07:47 AM

I also always look for a caslicks. Not sure I could miss is at the last few weeks, I am constantly checking the vulva and that region for relaxation.

I do find the lack of communication between vets/farm managers and horse owners inexcuseable. Even if the manager needs to make a quick decision on a test or procedure, he/she needs to get on the phone immediately and at least leave a message, or request for a call back.

After losing so many breeding seasons (mares not in foal, placentitius, slipped foal, etc) due to lack of a caslicks on mares that don't "look" like they need one, I caslicks everything (except for maidens) as soon as they are bred (not confirmed in foal), and open them again if they don't catch. My pregnancy rate, and carried to term rate since doing this is MUCH improved (about 100% easily pregnant, and deliver healthy foals). Any mare that does not catch on a cycle that has been bred with good timing, good semen, and has no fluid, I am on the phone requesting permission to caslicks the next cycle.

My math:
Caslicks $40.00, opening caslicks $20.00 = $60.00/year x 15? years = $900.

During the mares lifetime, 2 non pregnant cycles = $1000. (minimum) OR 1 slipped pregnancy due to a contaminant that could have been prevented with a caslicks = $5000.+

Cartier

Sep. 5, 2004, 07:56 AM

I seriously question whether this mare needed a caslicks. This mare carried her April 2003 filly to term (and all previous foals) without a caslick’s. Without question there was no urgent need to perform the caslicks in May of 2003. We were in frequent contact with the vet, he had many many many opportunities to discuss this with us BEFORE doing the procedure. If there suddenly was this urgent need (which there was not), it should have been discussed with us first. We should have been asked before the procedure was done on our mare. We did not give permission for the vet to do this surgical procedure on our mare and we were never told after the fact that it had been done.

At one point, in MAy of 2004, the vet said he did the caslicks because, “all the mares at this farm routinely have a Casslicks done.” Now the vet already demonstrated that he is a liar, so I don’t really know if it’s true that all mares routinely have a caslick, but IF it is true that this farm does routinely does caslicks on all the mare that come to them for breeding, then they need to have that information in their paper work, along with a recommended date when the caslicks should be opened. It is so critical that owners have knowledge of a caslicks that owners should have to initial a box saying that they are aware and agree to the caslick being done on their mare. Not opening the caslicks put our mare’s and foal’s heath and well being at risk.

My husband is a licensed medical doctor. He was stunned that this vet did a surgical procedure on our mare without our knowledge or consent. A medical professional has no right to do a surgical procedure on a client. (or in this instance a client’s horse) without the client’s knowledge AND consent.

For those who have said “I always look for a caslicks.” I have to laugh. Are you saying that you go out everyday and check to see if some vet came in the middle of the night and did a caslick on your mare?

We have had other mares at other farms, with other vets. None has done a caslicks on our mares without our knowledge and consent.

Now, if I were buying a horse from somewhere like an auction (where I might not know the history of the mare), then I would look for a caslick. But when I own the mare and know that she has NOT had a caslicks and I have NEVER authorized anyone to do a caslicks, then I am not looking for a caslicks.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 5, 2004, 08:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
For those who have said “I always look for a caslicks.” I have to laugh. Are you saying that you go out everyday and check to see if some vet came in the middle of the night and did a caslick on your mare?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always check on every single foaling mare for a caslicks the last few weeks before foaling. I AM checking the vulva for signs that she is close. I AM checking for signs of loosening in the perineil area. I AM also trying to keep the vulva reasonably clean. I AM checking for signs of loss of the mucous plug. I AM checking for any signs of a discharge. These are all times that I would notice if the mare had been stitched closed.

graystonefarm

Sep. 5, 2004, 10:20 AM

Daryln, well said. I frequently check and clean as well. If the mare's vulva was not elongating, or if there was a substantial distance between the anus and vulva, I would definitely suspect the mare had caslicks.

The only time I would get upset if my vet performed unauthorized services on my mare is if I specifically told a vet NOT to do something. Then again, I trust my vet's advice.

If the mare wasn't in my care for several months after being bred, it would give reasonable cause for me to wonder if she had caslicks if her vulva did not appear "normal" when she was close to foaling. If the mare never left my barn, or only did so for a week for breeding and I did not see caslicks when she returned, I would obviously not expect caslicks to appear "in the middle of the night". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Common sense.

Oakleigh

Sep. 5, 2004, 11:51 AM

Darlyn,

I agree! I check every one of my mares before foaling to see if they have been caslicked. I'm not always there when the mares are bred or ultrasounded. Sometimes my vet will go ahead and put a caslick in if he feels sucking air or pooling urine will be a problem. I may not even know that they received one. Of course I implicitly trust his judgement. I've known him since BEFORE he even went to vet school. He was my old vet's (the late and wonderful Dr. Bobby Anderson) assistant two decades ago. If he says they need one, then they need one... he will go ahead and take care of it.

Even mares who did not receive a caslick can form some adhesions if there was a tear or abrasion during foaling. It's just best to check all mares to prevent tearing.

Oakleigh

Cartier

Sep. 5, 2004, 01:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> ...of course I implicitly trust his judgement <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We did not “implicitly” trust this vet’s judgment and this is not about whether we trusted him. The bottom line here is that credible medical professionals do NOT do life changing surgical procedures without the knowledge and consent of the patient (or in this instance the client). Because we did not know about the caslicks it was not opened and that, in and of itself, could have killed our mare and foal.

Some are suggesting that we should have guessed that the caslicks was done. Iron Spring Farm and the vet knew FOR A FACT that it was done. They had an affirmative duty to inform us it had been done. Heck, they had an affirmative duty to obtain our permission to do the caslicks PRIOR to doing the procedure. It’s as simple as that.

A vet (or any medical professional) cannot do a life-altering and potentially life-threatening surgical procedure and just assume that a breeder will recognize, months after the fact, that it has been done..

We did not give the farm or this vet permission to do the Caslicks. Both he and the farm should have asked our permission to do the caslicks. They didn’t. Even so. after they went ahead and did it, they should have told us it was done. We had never seen a caslick before. Many, many other breeders we've spoken to have not seen one either. The area on our mare was completely healed by the time she came home and it was not apparent that the caslicks had been done.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I always check on every single foaling mare for a caslicks the last few weeks before foaling. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>For those who say all this about checking a month or so before foaling, what if the mare aborts the foal at 7-8 months. You would miss the caslick... and the mare would be in trouble.

AS to some of the responses above, readers should know there is a history. and if I posted the sky was blue they would say, “No, it is black.” So be it. But to suggest that a patient (or client) should assume a life-altering surgical procedure was done (without their knowledge or consent) is baloney. A patient (or client) is NOT at fault because they did not know (or assume) a surgery was done. Society does NOT tolerate medical professionals doing surgical procedures without a patient’s (or client’s) knowledge and consent. And any suggestion otherwise is absurd.

And for attorneys who have been contacting us by private email… please stop! That is NOT a direction we wish to pursue

CuriosoJorge

Sep. 5, 2004, 01:39 PM

A Caslick is hardly a "life altering" surgical procedure, and the odds of a mare dying as a result of receiving one are infinitely tiny. Thoroughbred mares that must be live covered get opened up for every breeding, get sewn up again, and then opened for foaling.

Frankly, I am very surprised that you had never seen a Caslick before; it's common practice at many farms and for many mares.

ahf

Sep. 5, 2004, 02:14 PM

What if the mare aborts at 8 months with a caslick?

Had it happen year before last. Mare aborted for no reason, with no warning and no bagging. Umbilical torsion was the only possible reason. She came in for breakfast, ate it, went back out, and one hour later split her caslicks and aborted.

The mare was fine. It didn't look anywhere near as bad as you would suspect. She healed right up, was stitched right back up as soon as she healed, and cultured clean, caught on the first breeding with frozen and delivered a healthy foal this year.

Every mare I've had gets a caslick. It's just routine, and as Darlyn said, cheap insurance in an endeavor that frequently is fraught with difficulties.

If my vet came out to do a preg checka nd I wasn't around, she would probably not consult me about a caslicks. ANd I would not be upset. But she knows me well. She WOULD however discuss regumate, as she knows how much I hate to see the stuff used.

nhwr

Sep. 5, 2004, 02:48 PM

Well let's not confuse the issue here. My vet and I have a working relationship. We have known each other for years and been through a lot together. He has a lot of slack with me. If he does something to one of my horses without checking with me, I grumble about the cost a little but basically I'd accept it.

However, if my mare was at the breeders (or a new place like the OP described)and there was unauthorized services provided, I simply wouldn't pay for it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif You can't authorizze something you have no knowledge of.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 5, 2004, 03:47 PM

Just for the record, I don't have a clue as to who Cartier is, don't believe I have ever responded to their posts, certainly have no history.

If a mare is left under the " breeding management" of a farm, I would cetainly expect them to do whatever they believe is needed to protect my investment in a pregnancy. I do believe someone should have communicated any procedures or tests to you, but at a farm that big and busy, certainly some things can be overlooked. A caslicks is such a common, minor sugical (how major can $40 be?) procedure for in foal mares, that if the farm does ALL of their own, it may have never occured to them to tell as they would believe that most people would expect it to be standard. I would also probably assume that anyone taking on breeding/foaling of mares, would be pretty experienced, and know to expect/check for a caslicks. Things also do occasionally get missed on a bill. When checking many mares, then going back to the office (truck) to do paperwork/bills, occasionally you might forget something.

A mare that aborts early may tear a bit, but so can any foaling mare - caslicksed or not. It would really surprise me to have caused enough damage that the mare could not be bred back on her 30 day heat - not to say it couldn't happen, but pretty rare.

Cartier

Sep. 5, 2004, 05:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> CuriosoJorge
Training Level

posted Sep. 05, 2004 05:39 PM
A Caslick is hardly a "life altering" surgical procedure, and the odds of a mare dying as a result of receiving one are infinitely tiny. Thoroughbred mares that must be live covered get opened up for every breeding, get sewn up again, and then opened for foaling.

Frankly, I am very surprised that you had never seen a Caslick before; it's common practice at many farms and for many mares. I haven'a clue where you got that data... for us there is NO acceptable level of risk to our mare. Because of the farm' and the vet's failure to inform us of a surgical procedure performed on our mare, our mare and foal were at serious and unnecessary risk. Maybe we value our horses much more than you value yours. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A caslicks alters the mare... it is life altering. When the woman we’d purchased the mare from (who had had three healthy foals from this mare, including the 2003 filly that was with the mare at the Farm, all without a caslicks) learned that the vet had done a caslicks she was sick about it. In her opinion (and in our opinion) the caslicks was unnecessary. And it IS life altering… the mare now has a caslick and will need it opened when she foals her Sandro Hit foal in 2005. She is altered and we did not approve the surgery. And foaling through an unopened caslicks CAN seriously injure the mare and kill the foal... if you think that is trivial, all I can say is, "We do NOT!!!"

And she was not at a large TB farm which might have routinely done a caslick. Rather, she was one of a small handful of outside mares at this farm at the time, in fact when we visited her at the farm she was one of only three or four. So it was hardly too large of a group to manage, nor so large a group as to excuse the vet for being so negligent.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> ... if the farm does ALL of their own, it may have never occured to them to tell as they would believe that most people would expect it to be standard. You can not do a surgical procedure without the knowledge and consent of the client. And when you go ahead and do it anyway, you can NOT just hope that the client would have approved it if they had been asked, And you can not assume that the client will notice it. This particular surgical procedure REQUIRES further surgery for the health and safety of the mare and foal. The client MUST be informed that the procedure was done. I would also probably assume that anyone taking on breeding/foaling of mares, would be pretty experienced, and know to expect/check for a caslicks. There are many many many breeders who have never seen a caslicks and would not recognize it when it is completely healed. That is why the vet MUST inform the client that the procedure was done so that the caslick can be opened.. for the health and safety of the mare and foal Things also do occasionally get missed on a bill. When checking many mares, then going back to the office (truck) to do paperwork/bills, occasionally you might forget something.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have no idea about the way thangs are done in the sloppiest of vet practices, but if the argument is that in our circumstance the farm and the vet were sloppy and negligent, I won’t disagree. We have had this mare (and other mares of ours and our partners) at a very reputable breeding farm. This other farm is a much larger practice ... much much much larger and they do not do surgical procedures without the knowledge and consent of the client. And, if they had to do some emergency surgical procedure they would INFORM the client ASAP.

And CuriosoJorge, who are you and what do you breed?

ahf

Sep. 5, 2004, 05:21 PM

Cartier posts:
MAybe we value our horsesmuch more than you value yours.

THe fact that someone does not agree with you on the "life altering aspect" of a caslicks procedure does not call for insulting them and questioning their level of compassion/care.

Cartier

Sep. 5, 2004, 05:23 PM

I said "maybe." I did not insult them. And who is this CuriousJorge? DO you know him/her? Does this CurousJorge even own horses or is he/she just a troll?I don’t mean to offend this CuriousJorge, Rather, I ask because months ago there was a Curious George who ran with a gang and seemed to have a rather obvious agenda against me.

And ahf... I read your post below. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> THe maybe part does not cut it for me. I agree with WHOEVER CuriousJorge is - I do not consider this procedure to be "life altering", I have seen with my own eyes what happens when a mare splits a caslicks, as she is standing over her aborted foal. THat's a not lot of fun, BTW, I hope you never have to experience it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I did NOT mean to offend you but haven't you said that you have done three breedings and had two dead foals? Maybe there is more to breeding than what you have experienced. And sorry if you don't like the word "maybe" but it is the best I can do to be polite in the face of what you are asserting.

I was there when my beautiful courageous mare foaled through the caslick... it was a raw bloody mess that required well over an hour to reassemble and stich. And I was there over the following weeks, every time our new vet was out to check and treat the wound (which did NOT heal immediately). There is no question that the mare could not be rebred at first and we did miss a cycle.

Like many on this forum we love our horses... they are precious beyond words. But we are aware that some people view horses as nothing more than an expendable commodity.

ahf

Sep. 5, 2004, 05:38 PM

THe maybe part does not cut it for me. I agree with WHOEVER CuriousJorge is - I do not consider this procedure to be "life altering", I have seen with my own eyes what happens when a mare splits a caslicks, as she is standing over her aborted foal. THat's a not lot of fun, BTW, I hope you never have to experience it.

My mares and foals get hospital-level care here - and I have never lost sight of the fact that my decisions have consequences. THere is no way on God's green earth you care for your horses more than I care for mine.

talloaks

Sep. 5, 2004, 05:39 PM

Now some of you believe in caslick surgery on all your mares, such as ahf, but in 28 years of breeding horses we have never used caslicks unless it was called for, either because the mare came to us with them, or a mare had such conformation that it was necessary, or some other particular reason. But let me also say that we have had very few caslicked mares. We do not want caslicks on our mares unless it is absolutely required. They are much better off without the surgery. One just doesn't do unnecesary surgery for the fun of it--regardless how minor some may feel it is. If a mare doesn't need it---it isn't done!!

CathyKb

Sep. 5, 2004, 05:52 PM

I agree with Talloaks, If a mare does not need a caslick do not do it. I do not have any mares that need one, but if they did, the vet would consult me before it was done. I too have seen caslicks on some mares and did not notice it. Also if it was done on a mare without the owner's knowledge, why would they even be looking for it.
Just wanted to say that I would be furious if this happened to my mare!

aurum

Sep. 5, 2004, 06:03 PM

I would hate to have a Caslick done on a mare. In all my years of breeding I have never needed one. I have had and still have several mares that are tipped and still have babies. Lately I have been told to do a Caslick on my mare Padrama that is not going into foal in Canada, but I refuse this. The mares that would have needed a Caslick considering American way of why and when one must be done, have had foals all the times without a Caslick. I find it a horrible thing to do to a mare and I do not believe in it. We are cleaning the mare, then breeding her and then give her penicilling to keep clean and bring a pregnancy and I didn't even need the shots.

Ashemont

Sep. 5, 2004, 07:33 PM

I've gotta weigh in against Caslicks. C'mon ladies, think about it! It's gotta hurt. I grew up around the race track and I know it's a common procedure for TB mares (old trainer's belief is that mares suck wind and therefore run faster with a Caslicks!) but it is NOT as common in the rest of the horse world.

We do not have them on our mares. I have had many mares over the years who came to us with one and with us they never had one again... and they all easily got in foal and produced healthy babies.

I personally believe that reproductive soundness extends to external genitalia as well. Stop breeding those ill-conformed mares who MUST have Caslicks to maintain a pregnancy and pretty soon we'll eliminate the need for it because we'll be breeding anatomically correct mares.

We got one TB mare who had a Caslick. Bred her and then had it removed prior to foaling... but the vet missed a stitch and it was a big foal. The tear was horrible and required a year off for the mare to heal. I can't imagine a mare foaling with NONE of the stitches removed but I know if I had watched that I would be even more adamantly against this barbaric procedure!

Independent Gal

Sep. 6, 2004, 05:46 AM

I have just come across this topic and I truly cannot believe that for 2.00/day as an insurance to keep your mare pregnant you would quibble? Then again, maybe you went to school for 7-8 years and know so much more than the vet.
The only place I have ever experienced such fanatical requirements of contact before any procedure can be done is at a 100% riding horse place(and the boarders could not have afforded to pay for most lifesaving procedures anyway!)

It all comes down to giving about 10% control away for the best interests of the horse. I have put mares on Regumate, sewn up Caslicks, had stitches put in cuts, had joints injected, foaled out 200 000 dollar mares, etc. etc. all wihout notifying the owner in advance!! But I am in consultation with my vet and there is a huge trust factor there. Unless the farm I knowingly put my mare and foal at had managers I couldn't trust, I wouldn't think to questions such a paltry sum and I definitely wouldn't put them on the hook for it!!!!!

As for Cartier's post about the Caslicks, YOU ARE At fault if you cannot tell that a mare is Caslicked and you are doing the foaling out! If you sent the mare away to foal again you are at fault for taking her to a place that doesn't know enough to look at her vulva. You say that some mares you can hardly tell if they have one, well I have seen these too. The few times I have seen these, my vet has deemed them to be so slight that there is no need to open them and they will foal normally. So, if they are hard to tell then they most definitely will not RIP THE MARE TO SHREDS if she foals.

I just reread Cartiers post where she says that Caslicks have a huge risk to the mortality of a foal. UMMMMM... I beg to differ if you think that a few layers of tissue are going to prevent a huge projectile from coming out!!! The major damage that you say may not look pretty but it is "cosmetic" for the most part. For your part in the scenario, take a sharp pair of kitchen snips(the spring-loaded kind) and cut the tissue if you are ever in the situation. The mare will never feel it if you do this when the foal is coming out. I have asked vets this and they say either leave it if the Calsicks isn't almost toally to the bottom or cut with SHARP scissors/shears being careful not to cut the foal. So I ask you, where were you during foaling when the mare was "ripped to shreds"?

Vets are a valuable member of a reproductive team and I can guess that you are definitely on the list of non-desirables if you are raising such a stink about this.

Cartier

Sep. 6, 2004, 06:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I just reread Cartiers post where she says that Caslicks have a huge risk to the mortality of a foal. UMMMMM... I beg to differ if you think that a few layers of tissue are going to prevent a huge projectile from coming out!!! The major damage that you say may not look pretty but it is "cosmetic" for the most part. For your part in the scenario, take a sharp pair of kitchen snips(the spring-loaded kind) and cut the tissue if you are ever in the situation. The mare will never feel it if you do this when the foal is coming out. I have asked vets this and they say either leave it if the Calsicks isn't almost toally to the bottom or cut with SHARP scissors/shears being careful not to cut the foal. So I ask you, where were you during foaling when the mare was "ripped to shreds"?
Vets are a valuable member of a reproductive team and I can guess that you are definitely on the list of non-desirables if you are raising such a stink about this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Empathically I was not going to take shears to my mare (in labor) as the foal is presenting himself. Are you insane?

Who ever you are I can not begin to express how ignorant and offensive I find your post. You are dead wrong in the facts you assumed, including the assumption that we sent the mare out to foal (which indicates you didn’t even read the posts). Even the vet who made the error did not make the nonsensical arguments you are making here. Both that vet and Mary Alice inquired immediately if the foal had survived and about the condition of the mare. It is not in dispute that the mare and foal were at risk. Why you, with your iffy credentials and no first hand knowledge wish to assert otherwise is beyond me.

WE can not be held to a higher standard to know about a surgery (done without our knowledge and consent), than the Farm and the Surgeon WHO ACTUALLY DID THE SURGERY. They had a duty to obtain our consent prior to doing this caslicks (which they did NOT ) and they had an absolute duty to tell us that the caslicks had been done after the fact to safeguard the health and safety of our mare and foal. Again, they DID NOT! And this caslicks was NOT necessary.

As for our relationship with vets, we are privileged to be clients of the most experienced and successful reproductive vet in North America. He does not take just anyone in to his practice, but he will take our mares (and our friends mares) at the drop of a hat. He is a true professional. And had he done a caslicks he would have sought permission prior to doing so; it would be on the billing statement, as would the clear recommendation as to when the caslicks should be opened.

As you might notice some of the comments here, based on assumed facts and incomplete data are infuriating to my husband and I. But then, unlike you all we were actually there and know what really happened. To lighten the tone a bit - here are pictures of the foal. I must admit that after what the mare had been through foaling him, and the inference that the mare was somehow insignificant or of less concern that the Contango foal (which - rightly or wrongly - I found very offensive at the time), I had a difficult time bonding to this foal, whom we’ve named Commander. At one point, in an email to a friend in Germany I called him ugly.

Well now she never omits an opportunity to point out that the ugly duckling turned in to a beautiful swan. SO, here is Commander

Cartier

Sep. 6, 2004, 06:44 AM

and another

Cartier

Sep. 6, 2004, 06:45 AM

and a third

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 6, 2004, 06:47 AM

I totally agree. If you are present at the birth of a mare foaling that has not had her caslicks opened, it is a very simple matter to cut it open. The pressure of the baby being delivered will block the nerves to that area (as any woman who has given childbirth will know - they are routinely cut with no meds). A simple cut will prevent the tearing.

Cartier

Sep. 6, 2004, 06:52 AM

Darlyn
It appears that you are simply THE perfect person is all situations! I am only a mere mortal You were not there. I was. We had the mare on a video cam, it was two weeks early, the water broke, I called the vet and was down at the barn within a few minutes, the foals legs were sticking out. The mare was very agitated, in pain, getting up and down repeatedly, I was not about to try to cut at her with anything.

graystonefarm

Sep. 6, 2004, 07:24 AM

I don't think it's a matter of anyone being "Perfect". What it all comes down to is knowledge and experience. We all learn from our experiences and mistakes. Just remember that it's better to cut than for the mare to tear. What about in the event of a red bag delivery? That is a life or death situation for the mare and foal. With a red bag, you'd better be ready to cut! I have a pair of scissors in my foaling kit just in case.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 6, 2004, 09:56 AM

Cartier
Of course I am not perfect, but I do realize the responsibility that I carry with becoming a midwife/caretaker. I try and stay as educated as possible about all things relating to breeding/foaling/horse care. It truly astounds me that anyone would try and sue a vet or a breeding farm over this. Maybe not pay the bill because they gave you something not requested/discussed, but sue for damages? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Somewhere along the line, we have to take responsibility for the care of our own animals, and if you are not up to the task, send them to someone who is, or educate yourself. You may have to cut a mare that has not been caslicksed. Foaling of mares is a responsibility I don't take lightly. I do my best, but if that is still not good enough, I will accept my part in the responsibility of what ever happens. You are obviously the kind of person in this society that helps to make the lawyers rich.

Yes, I do caslicks. It is definitely a lot less barbaric than having a foal that was born with placentitius, struggling to live, when a caslicks may have prevented it. That area is a very dirty area. It is not just about conformation. If you have a mare that drops weight a bit late winter, especially as she ages, the vulva can gap a bit, allowing bacteria thru. The cervix can easily be slightly damanged in multi-foaling mares, and not make "the perfect seal". So, don't breed the mare because she was slightly damaged by foaling? Why take the risk? Mares that have had several foals can and do lose their tone/seal. How many cycles has a mare just "not caught" because some inflammation got into the uterus? The value of doing this, especially on older mares that have had several foals AND any mare that has not "caught" thru a properly bred cycle has been proven to me. Seems like it has been proven to Iron Spring Farm as well.

I think caslicks is much kinder than the barbaric practice of making horses wear blankets http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Now that makes them uncomfortable for a whole winter, not just a few days.

Sorry for the rant - just a pet peeve.

Cartier

Sep. 6, 2004, 10:00 AM

Sherry offers the following <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> posted Sep. 06, 2004 11:24 AM
I don't think it's a matter of anyone being "Perfect". What it all comes down to is knowledge and experience. We all learn from our experiences and mistakes. Just remember that it's better to cut than for the mare to tear. What about in the event of a red bag delivery? That is a life or death situation for the mare and foal. With a red bag, you'd better be ready to cut! I have a pair of scissors in my foaling kit just in case.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are marked distinctions between a red bag delivery (which is not predictable) and our situation. A red bag delivery is not the direct and inevitable consequence of a surgical procedure. The potentially horrific consequences of a mare foaling through an unopened caslick are 100% foreseeable and preventable.
The vet and farm knew for a fact that the caslicks had been done on our mare. They had 100% certainty it had been done because he did the caslicks. He took it upon himself to do the procedure without our knowledge and consent and in doing so he accepted the responsibility to, at the very least make us aware he had done the procedure. He knew what was not in his billing statement. The caslicks was not in there billing or on any communication (written or verbal) that we received (and there were dozens of communications between when we dropped our mare off in April of 2003 (the caslicks was done in May of 2003) and when she tore herself to pieces in May of 2004. Our mare was at ISF from April 2003 through August of 2003. Even after we had her shipped home to us there were communications from both the farm and vet. They had many many many opportunities to mention the caslicks and to call to our attention that it had been done and needed to be opened for the health and safety of our mare and her foal.

AS for Darlyn, we have not sued... but that is the only remedy a civilized society allows. After all, we cannot take the vet out behind the shed and do what we'd like to do... As for what you would or would not do in this situation, all I can say is this was not your mare... you weren't there... and I can't recall ever deferring to your sterling judgement ... frankly, I don't give a rip for your opinion.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 6, 2004, 10:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
were willing to settle the matter very reasonably, i.e. vet bills to repair the tear and slighlty less that half the cost of the ET foal we missed in the one cycle.. rougly $7K). By the time the vet’s insurance agent contacted us
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I took that statement as you were trying to collect/sue for damages. My mistake - see, I am not perfect http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

CuriosoJorge

Sep. 6, 2004, 11:09 AM

"for us there is NO acceptable level of risk to our mare"

Then why are you in the breeding business? Breeding a mare is a risk in itself even if everything goes smoothly. Just ask Robby J.

I also find in amusing that the Cartiers like to remind us that Dr. Cartier is a licensed medical doctor on a regular basis. Opening a Caslicks is a simple suture removal. One would hope that a licensed medical doctor would be capable of removing sutures from his own horse.

Cariter, yes I am the same CuriousGeorge, with a little Spanish flare. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif My identity and whether or not I own horses are not any of your concern - I don't know your real names, Dr. Cartier's specialty, or how many horses you have, so why should you care about MY personal information?

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 6, 2004, 12:35 PM

FYI - actually a healed caslicks is not stitches at all - they have long ago been removed or disinigrated. A thin layer of skin has healed together. To open a caslicks, you just block the area (a bit of lidocane), and snip that skin. It actually heals with a bit of scar tissue. When foaling, you could snip the skin when the presenting foal has blocked the nerves without any pain. (It actually feels like someone is drawing on your skin with a pen - been there personally http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif)
I had a vet once that wanted to open it a few weeks before delivery without anisthetic. He "claimed" that cutting the tiny bit of scar tissue didn't hurt - BECAUSE it WAS scar tissue. I told him to go ahead, but he had to stand directly behind my mare WHILE he opened it up. (Where is that sinister grin when you need it?) Imagine my surprise when he did http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Well, not a flinch, not any reaction at all. He was VERY careful to cut EXACTLY in the center http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

talloaks

Sep. 6, 2004, 01:15 PM

One of the big problems with caslick surgery is that every time the surgery is done to close up a mare a little bit of tissue has to be removed on each side so that it will heal. Over time the mare looses a lot of tissue with this procedure. It's not like sewing in a zipper!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lookout

Sep. 6, 2004, 01:17 PM

And yet, so many have said how they trust their vets implicitly, which is another way of saying they've given up that responsibility.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Maybe not pay the bill because they gave you something not requested/discussed, but sue for damages? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Somewhere along the line, we have to take responsibility for the care of our own animals, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 6, 2004, 02:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by talloaks:
Over time the mare looses a lot of tissue with this procedure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true and not. My 23 year old Hanoverian mare has been caslicksed many, many times. She had been done when I got her as a 14 year old mare. She broke her ankle in Germany as a yearling, so definitely a broodmare all of her life. Her vulva looks the same as my 5 year old mare that has never been caslicksed. So yes, a tiny bit of skin was removed each time, but healing/regrowth, seems to have put it right back. She is back in foal for 2005 - her 8th for me, and at least 6 before that we know of.

talloaks

Sep. 6, 2004, 02:07 PM

Darlyn wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> She is back in foal for 2005 - her 8th for me, and at least 6 before that we know of. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW!! There must be something to the fact of keeping mares in foal every year that none of her eggs (whatever they are called!!) are not wasted as they are in the years a mare is open and cycling normally and giving up eggs!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Cartier

Sep. 6, 2004, 02:23 PM

George my boy, mature adults don’t hide unless they have something to hide.

We are real people, known to many others on this forum. We actually own and breed horses. Not sure if this is true, but we hear that you’re a starving Amway salesman/student, who doesn’t even own a horse. Is that true? Frankly, you’re a bit like a stalker… why are you so fascinated by us? Could it be that you also go by some other name, one that everyone would recognize?

As for Dr. Cartier, there’s a whole lot I leave out about him, like how incredibly proud I am of him. He is a military physician with over 18 years of military service to this country. He (and others like him) put their lives on the line so darling children like you can have the luxury and freedom to take idiotic pot shots. How about you go out and accomplish something worthwhile with your life and then come back and post something worth reading.

mairzeadoats

Sep. 6, 2004, 02:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ahf:
and I have never lost sight of the fact that my decisions have consequences. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd say that this statement sums it up. YOUR horse; YOUR decision. The vet and the boarding stable do not have to live with the short or long-term results of the actions taken. The horse and the owner do.

Nobody, NOBODY, has a right to perform surgery or medicate or in any way alter a horse's care without the horse owner's permission. Period. They are providing a contractual service; they have an obligation to notify the owner exactly what that service includes.

Being a big farm or a busy farm or an important big-name breeding farm is NOT an excuse for "forgetting" to discuss medical care with an owner or "forgetting" to notify them of required after care for a medical procedure.

Can you imagine if your child was at a hospital for a medical procedure and while you were taking a restbreak, the doctor decided to perform elective surgery because he does it "routinely?" And then didn't bother to notify you that he'd performed this because he assumed everybody does this elective surgery? And then your child suffered painful and debilitating effects as a result because the doctor failed to notify you that the child now needed specific aftercare?

What do you think would happen? Would he still have a license to practice medicine? Would he still be alive?

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 6, 2004, 04:10 PM

99% of the mare owners that send their mares to a breeding farm do so because they want/need the breeding managers, and repro vets associated with the facility to "manage" their mares. Some because of a lack of knowledge, some because of a lack of a good repro vet, some because of a lack of time. They usually want the facility/vets to make reasonable decisions about the welfare, and breeding of the mare.

They do want to be contacted for an update occasionally, depending on length of time at the facility. Management decisions like feed changes, teasing, palpations, HCG injections, ovuplant, ultrasounds, flushing, etc are usually left in the care of the management and vets. It is the same for a training facility. Yes, owners should be kept informed, but there is a certain amount of trust given to make the best decisions on a day to day basis (changing bits, longeing equipement, etc for a training barn).

IMO, caslicks do come under that "best day to day management decision" catagory. If there are any tests, drugs, procedures that are commonly done to get/keep mares in foal, that you are opposed to, you need to communicate those wishes to the breeding farm. Do you not want a mare placed in breeding stocks for palps? Do you not want HCG given? Lutalyse? Do you not want your mare tranqed for palps if she is bad? Do you object to having caslicks done? = tell them when you drop off your mare. Is there a limit to what you would like to have done if your mare is not settling easily? Tell them.

I HATE spending someone elses money, and makeing those decisions. I HATE when we preg check a mare and find fluid and no pregnancy to know if the mare owner wants to procede to the next steps of culture, flushing, etc, or wait until next year, or send another mare. I hope the mare owner has let me know their thought, so I can make the best decision (for them) at the moment.

And I really hope that I don't forget to make that phone call as soon as I get a chance to let them know what has been done. Humans??

CuriosoJorge

Sep. 6, 2004, 04:25 PM

Hear hear Darlyn for being a voice of reason.

Cartier, there are people on this board who know me, too, and they will assure you that I am by no means starving. If I were, my clothing size would be much smaller than it is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif As for the rest of your assinine drivel, it really shouldn't be dignified with a response. Have a nice day.

Independent Gal

Sep. 6, 2004, 06:38 PM

Hmmmm... nonsensical and insane... aahhh ok must have hit a nerve. I can picture the "celebrated" foaling attendants crouched behind the mare while she is tearing the sh*t out of her vulva while holding a pair of scissors-no one having the SENSE to snip it themselves. But why then that would be SURGERY of the utmost advanced technique!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif If stitches were "surgery" why then I must be a surgeon as I have stitched myself! Whoa. Hmm.. never mind.

Chocolatier

Sep. 6, 2004, 07:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> But then, unlike you all we were actually there and know what really happened. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just remember...you brought this topic to the forum. If you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

After reading most of this im actually shocked this was not noticed when you were cleaning her up. Since Dr Cartier is a physician I would think he would have an eye for such things more so then the average lay person. I have seen caslick's put in and removed and have also seen mares who foaled (early) with one in. Never have I seen a mare shredded due to a caslicks...maybe a big foal or bad presentation yes. Also glad to hear you are not sueing the vet or practice...makes a nice change.

aurum

Sep. 7, 2004, 03:33 AM

Well, after all that Caslick discussion, could someone please post a clear and close up picture of one?

The barn vet had twice the stallion owner tell me that my mare would need a caslick and I refused and always will, but I would like to see what that looks like as I cannot imagine. Can't even imagine to do that thing to one of my mares.

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Hmmmm... nonsensical and insane... aahhh ok must have hit a nerve. I can picture the "celebrated" foaling attendants crouched behind the mare while she is tearing the sh*t out of her vulva while holding a pair of scissors-no one having the SENSE to snip it themselves. But why then that would be SURGERY of the utmost advanced technique!! If stitches were "surgery" why then I must be a surgeon as I have stitched myself! Whoa. Hmm.. never mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no idea what exactly this is supposed to be reference to. I was home alone when the mare foaled, my husband was at work. This was only the second foal I had ever foaled. I had called Dr. Yates before running down to the barn just to give him a heads up that she was foaling, but at that time I had no idea she’d had a caslicks. I had never seen a caslick.

I looked again at the farm's stallion advertisements, their cd, their video and their website. These advertisements all speak of how great the stallion is, but no where do they mention: “WARNING: we only sell semen to our definition of ‘experienced’ breeders.” And in all of their paperwork and in all of the vets billing and paperwork, no where does it say, "WARNING: We routinely do a caslick on your mare."

Both the farm know that the unopened caslick could result in serious injury to the mare and death to the foal. They cannot leave to chance that every breeder has seen a caslick and would detect it. (Gwen, the poster above says she has not seen one).<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The barn vet had twice the stallion owner tell me that my mare would need a caslick and I refused and always will, but I would like to see what that looks like as I cannot imagine. Can't even imagine to do that thing to one of my mares.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I had washed the area many times, and never noticed the caslick. IT ws completely healed by the time the mare was returned to us. I had no reason to probe around looking for it. Our mare did not have a caslick when we purchased her in April of 2003. ON the day of purchase, she went directly to ISF to be bred. We never authorized them to do a caslick, we were never told of a caslick, I did not look for a caslick.

AS for our experience, we discussed it in detail with Dthe vet. He had every opportunity to mention that he wanted to do a caslick, and later that he had in fact done a caslick and that the caslick MUST be opened before foaling. For what ever reason the vet never mentioned the caslick.

In addition to the farm's recommended vet, we have been clients of Dr. Fred Marsh, Clarksville Maryland, Centreville Equine, Millington MD, Manor Equine, Monkton MD, Monocacy Equine Beallsville, MD, Dr. Hurtgen/Nandi Vet, New Freedom PA, Dr. Dan Yates, Wilmington, Ohio, Dr. Tim Wren, Wilmington, Ohio, and Southern Pine Equines Southern Pines NC. This mare had also been seen by several vets prior to our purchase of her. This mare had a 2003 filly. None of these vets suggested doing a caslick on this or any of our mares. None of these vets ever did any procedure of any kind without our prior knowledge and consent.

We simply did not have any WARNING of any kind to beware of this vet. HE came well recommended by the farm. IF the farm and/or vet wish to ROUTINELY do caslicks on all mares then THEY SHOULD SAY SO IN WRITING for the client to know about it. The client should have to agree to the procedure and without question, the client MUST be told that the procedure was done.

And if ONLY “experienced’ breeders can use them… say so up front in writing or don’t take our money.

AS for our suing… we have that right, as does anyone. I work with attorneys from all over the country and one of our partners is an attorney in PA. Suing is always an option, but reasonable people do not go to court unless forced to do so.

I have actually only been involved in one litigation involving a horse. I wrote the original letter for a woman down in Florida who had purchased a mare with laryngeal hemiplegia. The farm knew about the laryngeal hemiplegia, about a failed surgery to repair it and had failed to disclose this to the purchaser. I wrote a letter on behalf of the Florida woman suggesting a reasonable settlement. The farm that sold the mare originally would not settle. I arranged for an attorney to handle the situation, the prices went up and the matter was settled in favor of the Florida woman for several thousand more than what I had originally requested.

I think it is always best to try to settle disputes out of court, but sometimes that is NOT possible.

Kalle Sport Horses

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:46 AM

Ok, I admit to being a stalker. I rarely find a need to do more than read the boards, but here goes. I am a small animal veterinarian who also breeds horses and take care of my own.

First, Yes, an owner should be notified if any additional proceedures need to be done on her horse before they are done, or an understanding needs to be in place before the horse is seen by the vet. And yes, the decision to have a caslicks should always be with the owner. This is an elective proceedure and all veterinary organizations will support the necessity for getting owner permission before any proceedure.

Now, I have been breeding horses for only the last few years and have been shocked at the lack of communication that I have received from the repro vets that I have taken my horses to. But that being said, what I have observed is that they are usually so busy during breeding season that they commonly work 16 hour days without stopping for a meal. They also are expected to be available to all of their clients, not just one farm. Many of the good repro vets service many many farms. They have a very good working relationship with these farms and assumptions are made due to the fact that they have this type of relationship. The owner of the farm takes on the responsibility of keeping up with the proceedures and knowing what is going on with their mares. If a horse is taken to a barn like this for a preg check, the vet will more than likely treat them as he or she would treat all the mares on that farm. They are actually responsible for maintaining a standard of care. If this mare were treated differently than all other mares at a farm, then if something went wrong, the vet would be liable.
If an owner chooses to have their mare preg checked at a barn by the barn vet, they need to become informed as to what types of things go on at that barn.
If you want complete control, take the horse to the vet yourself and attend the visit. No vet has time to stop in the middle of an exam and call around to speak to someone who is not present. In fact, I think it is your responsibility to be there as much as possible if it is not your barn or your vet. So many people with horses at barns use the barn vet and the exam is done when they are not present.
Well, the barn owner becomes the agent of that animal for the vet.

I think you have every right to be informed about what happens to your horse, so get off your high horse (hehe) and become more involved in the care and make sure you are present to ask the important questions and educate yourself about what to expect during your animals pregnancy.
Stop waiting for someone else to do the work for you and then not liking the outcome.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:38 AM

Chairseat - very well said

Cartier - it has now become obvious to me that this is about an impending lawsiut, brought about BECAUSE you either work with attorneys, OR are an attorney yourself, with that mindset of don't accept blame for things yourself, blame someone else and see if you can get them to pay for your trouble. Your inexperience is what caused your mare to deliver with the caslicks in place. She may have torn even if not caslicksed. You should have either educated yourself, or sent your mare to someone who was, to foal. I don't think we need to have all of these clearly labeled warnings that are for idiots on our products (Warning on a package of straight pins - do not swallow, keep out of reach of children - DUH) but obviously laywers do need them to stop all of these insane lawsuits. Maybe the answer is to limit the number of lawyers so hundreds of them are not "hungry" ambulance chasers. Maybe stallion owners need to make mare owners sign a paper stating that they will make sure the mare is handled by experienced people. Hey! Why stop there - they maybe should sign that they know that handling the youngsters can be dangerous, and they will hire a professional to break them because they buck, etc, etc... all will be a direct result of having the mare settled in foal. WOW, new business - making stallion owners responsible for any injury relating to a foal of their boy. <sheesh> http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I am quite certain that if Gwen saw a mare whose vulva opening was only an inch or 2, she would worry/ask her vet about delivery/what to do about it in spite of having never seen a caslicks.

As stated above, if you had been present at your mares vet appointments, you could have asked the questions, and made your decisions. You left her in the farm's care, and they did the standard of care that they routinely do. You can take comfort in the fact that your inexperience did not place your mare and foal in a deadly situation BECAUSE the tiny, thin layer of skin easily tears if not opened prior to delivery. Mares can and do have serious tears even when they have never been caslicksed - a risk of foaling.

Janet

Sep. 7, 2004, 07:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I grew up around the race track and I know it's a common procedure for TB mares (old trainer's belief is that mares suck wind and therefore run faster with a Caslicks!) but it is NOT as common in the rest of the horse world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can't speak for racehorses, but many upper level eventing mares have Caslick's. Sportscar (2003 mare of the year) started experiencing what appeared to be severe back pain after her "8 minute gallops" when she moved up to the Advanced / *** level. It turned out that the pain was due to the air sucked in through her vulva while galloping, and not able to easily esacpe. After Caslick's surgery was performed, she had no more of these problems. And we then found out that MOST of the mares competing at that level have Caslick's for the same reason.

One of my mares (who is neither an upper level eventer nor a broodmare) has a Caslick's because of her conformation.

I was there when it was done, and she showed no distress, then or later.

I would assume that "checking for Caslick's" was part of the standard pre-partum veterinary exam. If you are going to blame anyone, I'd blame the vet that did the pre-partum exam.

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 08:02 AM

Darlyn,
About this quote<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Cartier - it has now become obvious to me that this is about an impending lawsiut, brought about BECAUSE you… blah blah blah… <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did not start this thread. I do NOT know the person who started this thread I have simply responded to posts. And until this thread (and your inane contribution to it), we had pretty much let the matter drop. But I gotta tell you. I am starting to feel very differently.

There have been other threads on this forum where people have said, “go sue” I didn’t see you complaining about these people. Maybe you have an axe to grind here. You are now trying to turn this into a personal attack on me and that is cr-p. Your are speculating about what you think are my motives (you are completely wrong) but since you can speculate so freely about me, let me return the favor and speculate about you and your motives. I think you are a …. And you like to … and you are doing this because you are friends of George and the gang … and you are trying to curry favor with… and overall, you don’t know jack ….

AS for our being there with the vet. when he is at our farm… I am amused by the sanctimonious garbage and off-the-wall assumptions made about this. As an absolute rule, we are present at all times when any vet has treated our horses at our farm. In this circumstance we could not be present for two reasons. At the time our mare was at the farm we lived 500 miles away. Sorry I couldn’t make the appointments … and FYI you can not just drop in at this farm even if you have a mare there. You have to make an appointment that is convenient for the farm and their staff.

AS for the vets who saw the mare later... they were expereinced repro guys, they did not notice the caslick on this mare (so maybe we were not so wrong not to have notices it either) and even if they had noticed it they would have no way to know we did not know about it.

The vet who knew with 100% certainty about the caslicks and who also knew the risk of not opening it was the vet at the farm. He had the duty to obtain our permission PRIOR to doing the caslicks and to tell us he had done it so that it could be opened before the mare foaled. His failure to tell us about the caslick put our mare and foal at unnecessary risk.

MountainDew

Sep. 7, 2004, 08:08 AM

From yet another brilliant colored sport horse breeder:

"I think you are a …. And you like to … and you are doing this because you are friends of George and the gang … and you are trying to curry favor with… and overall, you don’t know jack …."

THANKS FOR THE LAUGH! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

graystonefarm

Sep. 7, 2004, 08:31 AM

Where's the popcorn? Tee hee hee hee.

Tiki

Sep. 7, 2004, 09:12 AM

Please pass the raspberry creme filled chocolate hearts! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Independent Gal

Sep. 7, 2004, 09:16 AM

So, is "Darlyn" correct in saying you are suing about this? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif No wonder our courts are overflowing with "nonsensical" lawsuits of which the filing and lawyer fees significantly outweigh the amount of money being sued for.

Anyone who breeds for more than a hobby as well as lots of hobby breeders as well, do not consider that a Caslick's procedure is a surgical procedure. I consider a hernia repair, periosteal stripping, transphyseal bridging, castration, ovariectomy, etc. to be surgery.

Have you ever witnessed a Caslick's? It takes mere minutes a small amount of lidocaine, some suturing material and results in a tiny strip of tissue the size of fish bait to be removed. My vet has cut open the Caslicks with a small razor blade without anesthetic if he is feeling really quick as it is barely felt by the horse.

Many, many breeding farms suture all mares the day or week after they foal and even rebreed(AI) the mare with the stitches in. These are people who do this as a matter of routine due to the benefits of the mare and resulting foal. Breeders certainly have other attributes to pass on in the progeny other than vulvar conformation.

But please for the sake of any future foalings you may have, invest in a pair of kitchen shears to prevent "tragedies" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif like yours from reoccuring.

Bless your lawyer's heart.

Lord Helpus

Sep. 7, 2004, 09:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
The vet who knew with 100% certainty about the caslicks and who also knew the risk of not opening it was the vet at the farm. He had the duty to obtain our permission PRIOR to doing the caslicks and to tell us he had done it so that it could be opened before the mare foaled. His failure to tell us about the caslick put our mare and foal at unnecessary risk. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sentence contains all of the elements necessary to sustain a cause of action for negligence. It is written in "lawyer-ese" and is not a casually phrased comment.

As an attorney, were I to be drawing up a complaint including a cause of action for negligence, it would contain very similar language.

Hmmmm. Could it be a coincidence?

Civil actions, once filed, are public documents and, as such are available on the Internet. It appears that a complaint against the vet has been prepared and, if not filed already, will be filed in the near future. It will be filed in the county in which the farm is located and should be easy enough to check on so that we can all see the total amount of damages being demanded for this life altering surgery performed on the mare.

Damn these vets! How dare they practice veterinary medicine in such a way as to try to maximize the chance of our mares sustaining pregnancy and carrying a foal to term.

PS: My experience is in TB breeding. I am a brand new sport horse breeder. I know none of the other people on this forum, am in cahoots with none of them and take no sides in the inital issue of unauthorized vet services or on the issue of whether Caslicks should or should not be performed.

But, I do know a little bit about the legal elements of Negligence, so I thought I would add my $.02 on this limited issue.

aurum

Sep. 7, 2004, 09:57 AM

Rats! Can I please get a picture of such a darn caslick to know what that looks like?

Sorry, for the language but I would please want to see how that looks. I know what it is, but cannot imagine. I cringe myself thinking of one.

graystonefarm

Sep. 7, 2004, 10:11 AM

I have an older mare that has caslicks. I'm at work now but I'll send you a pic later tonight if no one else has done so. Please post or email me if someone else sent you pics.

It was absolutely necessary that she have these caslicks. Her last foal is now 3 years old and never needed them before, but now at 19 she does. We had a heck of a time getting her clean and keeping her clean. We bred her once after she was confirmed clean, but she did not "take" and was dirty again (semen was not so good either). We put in caslicks and last u/s showed no fluid with good tone. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif She was bred a week ago today and hopefully she'll give us a lovely foal.

graystonefarm

Sep. 7, 2004, 10:26 AM

I sent you a link.

HeyYouNags

Sep. 7, 2004, 10:33 AM

Haven't read the whole thread (not sure I want to http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ), but is it legal to post inflammatory information naming individual veterinarians and breeding farms?

Obviously, it's rude and ugly, but is it illegal? Just curious.

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 10:34 AM

Lord Helpus wrote <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
This sentence contains all of the elements necessary to sustain a cause of action for negligence. It is written in "lawyer-ese" and is not a casually phrased comment <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.

Lord Help Us… you should be posting as Lord Save Us. I work for attorneys... like it or not, that is the way I speak and write. IF you want to waste time searching for something filed against the farm or vet go right ahead… but it won’t be my filing.

We haven’t filed anything. In fact, back in June, when the vet's Insurance adjuster called and tried jerking me around I just hung up on the girl. I figure if the adjuster wanted to simply conduct free discovery, which they would then consider their work product, we might as well put this mess before a jury. At the time we weren’t interested in going that route. We have done absolutely nothing about this since. Not one cotton pickin thing.

So how about you stop trying to start a lawsuit here. If you look back at my first posts on this I did not evn mention the farm or the vet.

AS for mentioning people by names, the standard had always been that what you say must be true. If what I am saying is false then I can be sued (under certain circumstances). But think about all that the forum moderator Erin wrote about Bettina Hoy… most of which was opinion… and apparently accurate. Though I adore Bettina Hoy and am very sorry about the Gold Medal mess, she was specifically named in many many posts and not all of what was true about her situation was positive.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 7, 2004, 11:17 AM

Cartier - why would you assume that I am part of some unknown conspiracy to "get you" for something? I don't have a clue as to who you are, and obviously everyone is well aware of who I am. If you and I have ever had contact or a business (or personal for that matter) dealing, please speak up. If we have mutual friends (or enimies??) that I would know, please tell me who?

I am guilty of being a person with a fair amount of experience in a lot of horsey areas that is VERY opinionated. I also am very willing to stand up and be counted about an issue I believe in, or if I see a person who IMO is "wronged". You are not it. The farm and their vet IS, again in my (not so humble) opinion.

I certainly hope the vet's insurance does not pay you off for the damage that You caused. I also hope someone sends them a copy of this thread so they can have lots of views of what a "normal prudent person" would have done.

nhwr

Sep. 7, 2004, 11:43 AM

I don't want to get into the arguement but here (http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/VulvalConformation.shtml) is a link that shows what a Caslick is, how it is performed, what it looks like when it is done and what happens to a mare who foals without having it removed.

Lord Helpus

Sep. 7, 2004, 11:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
We haven’t filed anything. In fact, back in June, when Lee’s Insurance adjuster <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Insurance adjuster? Now WHY would a vet's insurance adjuster be calling you? My vet's insurance adjuster has never called me!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> tried jerking me around <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well! That wasn't very friendly of her! After all, what had you ever done to her?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I just hung up on the girl. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You go, Girl! That shows class!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I figure if the adjuster wanted to simply conduct free discovery <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, why would she want to do that if you never had any intent to sue anyone?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> which they would then consider their work product <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Darn, it's lucky for the vet you are not an attorney

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> we might as well put this mess before a jury. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And its also lucky for the vet that you have no plans to sue him.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> At the time we weren’t interested in going that route. We have done absolutely nothing about this since. Not one cotton pickin thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sounds a tad ingenuous to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So how about you stop trying to start a lawsuit here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me? Trying to start a lawsuit? When you had already gotten the vet's insurance carrier involved, months ago? Reality Check! We need a Reality Check over on Aisle Five!

Ashemont

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:02 PM

Hey guys, can't we lighten up a little. Cartier went out, saw her mare's water had broken, went in to call the vet and came out to find the legs already presenting. I've been breeding horses for 40 some years and there is no way at that point I'd be trying to cut anything... especially if the mare was moving around a lot. I'm sure it was very traumatic for all concerned.

This thread has pointed out that there are two definite camps here when it comes to Caslisk's. I don't use them but then I am very particular about my mares' breeding conformation. I can see where, with age and repeated breedings, it might be helpful in prolonging the reproductive life of a valuable mare. But I don't see it as a routine procedure to be performed on every mare.

Others swear by it and that's fine. But I think this thread has made us all more aware of the fact that some vets/breeding farms do this procedure routinely and so it's another thing to add to the list when sending a mare out... or buying a mare.

talloaks

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:07 PM

nhwr posted a link which stated:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Caslick's Vulvoplasty Operation

Treatment should be directed at correcting the cause of pneumovagina and concurrently treating the resulting acute endometritis. The former can be done surgically by Caslick's operation although in some cases increasing the physical condition and fat status of the mare may be sufficient. This is the most common surgical procedure performed in studfarm practice, but in the author's opinion some mares are subjected to Caslick's operation unnecessarily. The operation should be reserved for mares with a true vulval defect rather than just because the mare has failed to become pregnant. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well my oh my, this is interesting!! Seems to me it suports the opinion of those who do not want caslick surgery done on their mares who do not need it!!

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:15 PM

Lord Helpus to help you understand, the vet's insurance adjuster contacted us because his liability is clear and unequivocal. He admitted as much to us during several phone calls. Then he had his insurance agent contact us. Most anyone who has dealt with Insurance adjusters can relate that these people jerk you around. Now if you've had positive experiences with insurance adjusters then good for you.

After reading you and Daryln I’m really moving towards letting 12 reasonable people (not you fabulous experts here, but 12 reasonable people) decide if we had more responsibility to notice a caslicks (which we had never seen and were not aware had been done) than the vet who actually did the caslick without our knowledge or consent. If it was so easy to see, then Dr. Yates and Dr Wren would have seen it. They have actually done caslicks. They didn't notice it because it was completely healed and it didn't occur to them that the mare needed a caslick based on her conformation. And of course , they would not have done the caslick without-at the very least-letting the client know they had done the procedure.

schwung

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:42 PM

Wow - its threads like this that remind me why I dislike this board sometimes. Why the attack on Cartier???

Whether or not YOU would notice a Caslicks and have it removed, regardless of the fact that you ALWAYS check your mares prior to birth, does not negate the fact that the vet performed a medical procedure without the consent of the horse's owner, did not notify her of that (nor did the vet even charge her for it, so she had absolutely no way of knowing the vet did it) and as a result the mare had a horrible delivery. To me there is NO DOUBT of the vet's responsibility here, REGARDLESS of whether or not a Caslicks is "standard procedure" or even if the vet felt it was medically necessary!

I'm really thrown by the hostility on this thread shown towards Cartier. I can tell you, as a one-time breeder of my beloved mare I would be seeing red if this happened to me (and no, if I did not consent to, witness or pay for a Caslicks procedure on my mare I would have no reason to think one was there, nor am I sure I would be able to recognize one if I saw one, nor would I feel comfortable cutting her open in the middle of delivery!!).

Do I think Cartier should sue? I think she certainly has good reason to, but it sounds like she has already received acceptable renumeration for the vet's mistake and the matter is resolved.

Let's liken this to a situation involving the following situation: You are at work and are called to find out that your horse has been injured and needs stitches. You have the barn owner call the vet, who arrives before you have the opportunity to do so. Vet decides without consulting you that he should give the horse a penicillin shot "just in case". Well, this simple, low-cost, "standard procedure", cost this horse his life, because he's allergic to penicillin, and had the owner been notified that was going to happen, you could have told him so.

If this was a human you would be required to state that you had no known allergies prior to being given a penicillin shot, to prevent such a scenario.

I don't know you Cartier, but I'm sorry you are being treated so absolutely unfairly in this matter. The vet's mistake is in NO way your fault...regardless of what an "experienced breeder" WOULD have done.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:47 PM

OMG, I just read back your old posts. You are the same person that threatened to sue the Oldenburgs, and then the COTH last year.

Seems like some people routinely jump out in trafic and claim injury.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:56 PM

sorry, Schwung, I will have to disagree with you too. If you know your horse is alergic to Penicillin, you have the obligation to let your boarding place know in case they can't reach you. You had the 2nd chance to tell them when you knew the vet was being called to come. Clearly owner fault. A vet called to treat an animal is not going to track the owner down for everything they need to do. They will depend on the "agent/barn manager". You need to keep your agent informed WELL before the emergency that happens when you are out of communication range.

schwung

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:08 PM

That's fine if you disagree with me, but my point is that if this was a human doctor, there would be no question of fault. Sorry, doctors cannot just perform medical procedures without consent, except possibly in emergency situations when consent is just not possible from either the patient or a family member. It's not a gray issue, or an arguable one. And, its sounds like the vet and insurance company in question acknowledged that fact as well.

This to me sounds more and more like a personal vendetta against Cartier rather than a logical argument based on the facts - and obviously I haven't been privvy to the history here.

Even if Cartier is "sue happy", and maybe she is, I still think that with this particular instance, the vet was at fault, period.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:12 PM

I have no doubt that there are mares that have caslicks that didn't need them. It does come down many times to economics. I am sure the farm is not doing them just to have something to do. I am sure they do them for the same reason I do. It has proven to save me many thousands of dollars in lost pregnancies.

One of my mares was being bred - shipped semen for every cycle for 3 years - no pregnancy. About 5 different vets said she was fine - vulva conformation perfect - young maiden mare. At least 4 cucles per year x 3 years = 12 cycles of shipped semen
$6000. + mare care for 3 years = nothing

FINALLY tried a caslicks - pregnant on the next cycle. Easily (1 cycle) pregnant ever since.

I have seen the same thing with quite a few mares that are clients, and friends. Years worth of frustration and expense. Caslicks is the last thing tried, and shockingly it works.

Why spend thousands of dollars, and maybe even give up on a really nice mare when a $40. caslicks may be all that is needed.

I am just not into that kind of frustration of repeat breedings with no pregnancy anymore. I just can't afford it.

talloaks

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:18 PM

Fairviewhorsecenter, I have been reading this thread and I don't believe that Cartier ever said her mare had a problem getting in foal or staying in foal. As a matter of fact I don't believe that mare has had any previous problems. Unfortunately now that the vet performed the caslick surgery the poor mare will always have to have it done. It is really very very sad.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:20 PM

With a doctor, you have a person there to inform or give consent. With a boarded horse, you have a manager and vet that are acting on a pre-acknowledged accepted standard level of care. If the vet can't treat when he arrives, then don't call him. If there is something he needs to know to treat your horse, you better make sure that he has that information. A call to treat an injury (or pregnancy) IS permission to go ahead with an accepted level of care for that condition.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:26 PM

Once a caslicks, always a caslicks is not true. Lots of people breed previously caslicksed race mares, and don't put them back in.

I would agree that some degree of fault lies with the regular vet that knew he/she was dealing with a novice breeder, came out (I hope) to do pre-foaling exam/shots, and didn't open the caslicks up. A vet that is checking a mare for foaling should have checked. It is not something you can't notice or see if you just look there.

talloaks

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:27 PM

FairviewHorseCenter, it sounds to me like you are doing some twisting here!!

schwung

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:28 PM

I think whether or not the Caslicks was medically necessary and whether or not the vet had the right to perform the procedure without the consent of the owner is one issue. The fact that he did not notify her after the fact that it was done is quite another.

He could probably argue that he felt it was necessary and that the farm had the right to approve such services - perhaps she even signed over the right for them to approve medical services in her absence - but the fact that neither the vet nor the farm notified her that the procedure was done - especially given that it is something that has to be specifically UNDONE prior to giving birth - is completely inexcusable.

blueboo

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:34 PM

This whole mess could have been avoided with one simple action. ASKING QUESTIONS.
I personally haven't ever (yet) had a mare bred, but I've spent the past year reading everything I could find on the protocols, procedures, potential problems and common practices of breeding/foaling, and while I am in no way shape or form an 'expert', I am certainly aware of caslicks, why and when it's usually used, what can happen if it's used, and when it should be removed. If I myself had a mare that went out to be bred, I personally would ASK exactly, and specifically, what had or had not been done to her, particularly as regards 'common' procedures, and make no assumptions at all that anyone would remember to mention everything done over the course of her stay away. I feel that while yes, I would, under normal circumstances, expect to be informed of procedures performed on my mare, I ALSO would have the inherent responsibility to be as knowledgeable as possible about the possibilities and ask questions.

Just my opinion.

Sporthorse South

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:35 PM

Gee, Cartier, you have really opened my eyes to a whole new way of living. I'm thinking that maybe I should sue the vet that used Ovuplant on my mare after I told the owner of the breeding station that I didn't want Ovuplant used. They really jeopardized the reproductive health of my mare, so don't you think I am entitled to - what, $10K, $25K for damages?

And while I'm at it, I guess I'll go after the breeding station, too, because they "pulled" my foal when he got stuck. When I think of the damage they could have done to my mare and foal... And I think I will also go after the vet, the owner of the repro center, the stallion owner, AND the semen importer, because my mare had an inflammatory response to frozen semen.

And then there is the trainer that shaved my mare's whiskers off even after I told her to leave them alone, and the trainer that made my young horse sore from doing too much sitting trot with her, and the hunter trainer that overfaced my young horse by asking her to jump a 2'6" fence before *I* thought she was ready. And then there is the owner of that kindly old trail horse that spooked in the woods and dumped me, and the owner of the dressage horse that almost split my head open kicking at another horse. And the farrier that trimmed my horse a little bit short one day and made her footsore, and the trailer manufacturer, who made the ramp so steep that my horse fell off of it. And, of course, there is that EVIL warmblood registry, that STILL won't put my mare in the Main Mare Book. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Now that I think about it, I'm sure that I have now discovered the path to fame and fortune! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

talloaks

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:35 PM

schwung I fully agree with you!!!

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:38 PM

Fairview.

I find it completely disingenuous that you just now went back and read that I threatened to sue the OV. Are you sure you don’t mean to say that your inbox has been lighting up like a Christmas tree and you phone ringing off the hook with what you and your little gang should post next? I think you have taken something that is basically none of you business way way too far here. Are you the carrier for the farm or the vet? What business of this is yours if and how this matter is settled? Now you all have us in court already and you are testifying against us… and we haven’t even filed anything. And don't you have horses to tend to?

It is clear that you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. Rather, you jump from one thing to the next... and you all just keep repeating your own gossip so often that it becomes real to you, which is pathetic. AS for being sue happy, not hardly. It’s true we have a cause of action against the OV but you all are the ones who bring it up all the time.. not me. And here you go again… FYI, we haven’t done one single thing about the OV thing… NADA. Yet you and your fabulous little gang have posted about it repeatedly. At one point you guys called me a whore about it… you’ve really lovely people.

AS for our mare, she’s had three perfectly healthy foals, including the 2003 filly (who was up at the farm with the mare) all WITHOUT a caslick. I don’t think she needed one, our current vets do not think she needed one. NO vet has ever thought she needed a caslick except the vet recommended by the farm and he is the guy who did the caslick and then never bothered to tell us he had done it.

Except for the situation with the caslick, this mare is amazingly healthy reproductively speaking. She is currently in foal to Sandro Hit and our recepient mare is carrying her Lord Sinclair foal from this year as well.

And Chris Hutchins a.k.a Sport Horse South … .give it up sweetheart.. you're way too obvious here... you are an embarrassment to your organization… or maybe a perfect reflection of it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And, of course, there is that EVIL warmblood registry, that STILL won't put my mare in the Main Mare Book.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> With your connection to Holly I find this hard to believe... was she that ugly? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Our mare (referenced herein) is already in the GOV Main Mare book She was put there in 1995 by Dr. Rolland Ramsauer. We even have it on video. But I think Dr. Ramsauer was before your time. You may not know, Dr. Ramsauer was the GOV Breeding Director in Germany as well as in the USA.

talloaks

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:39 PM

sport horse south~~~what kind of a "sick" comment have you posted??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

HeyYouNags

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:40 PM

I think Fairview HC's posts have been spot on.

According to Cartier's early post, it appears the mare in question was 21 years old at the breeding in question. That alone puts her in high risk territory.

Concerning the insurance carrier: If a client mentioned the words "lawsuit" or "settlement", then the vet should have clammed up and turned everything over to his/her insurance carrier. Doing so is not an admission of guilt. Vet insurance carriers are generally happier to settle out of court, since that tends to require less $$ out of their pockets than a jury trial would, even when the jury finds in favor of the vet. And because of the time and aggravation involved in even a frivilous suit, a vet may agree to let the insurance co. settle.

Just tossing out a couple of other possible of scenarios to counter the supposition that the vet is obviously guilty.

Independent Gal

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>

Do I think Cartier should sue? I think she certainly has good reason to, but it sounds like she has already received acceptable renumeration for the vet's mistake and the matter is resolved.

Let's liken this to a situation involving the following situation: You are at work and are called to find out that your horse has been injured and needs stitches. You have the barn owner call the vet, who arrives before you have the opportunity to do so. Vet decides without consulting you that he should give the horse a penicillin shot "just in case". Well, this simple, low-cost, "standard procedure", cost this horse his life, because he's allergic to penicillin, and had the owner been notified that was going to happen, you could have told him so.

If this was a human you would be required to state that you had no known allergies prior to being given a penicillin shot, to prevent such a scenario.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK two things in this quote have me shaking my head.

One, how on earth do you think its worth suing the vet for a 30 or 40 dollar Caslicks and some minor repair to the vulva after? Heck, if she had just got the scissors and snipped there would not have been some completely repairable damage to the vulva. The postage it takes to file papers is worth more than the cost of the procedure. And NO I don't care about the principle of it. This whole thing could have been solved by a BOARDING Contract like most farms who have experienced these delectable customers have gotten written up. Most boarding contracts(like mine) clearly say that-and I quote,

Blank Blank Farm;its servents and agents shall not be liable or responsible in any manner for any disease, accident or injury to the Mare or any foal of the Owner and Owner acknowledges that his animal(s) will be on Blank Blank Farm premises entirely at the Owner's risk. Owner acknowledges the custom and usage by the breeding and boarding business whereby all risk of death, injury or sickness from any source whatsoever is assumed solely by the Owner.

Blank Blank Farm is hereby authorized without liability and at its discretion to perform or cause to be performed from time to time, any work on the Mare or any foal of the Owner where such work is considered by Blank Blank Farm to be contributory to the general health or appearance of such animal(s) or for the reproductive health of the Mare, including without limitation, to engage a veterinarian or a blacksmith, trim feet, deworm, vaccinate and administer feed supplements. END of QUOTE from Boarding contract.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Attention all Barn owners!!!!!!! Feel free to use the above statements to protect yourselves from frivolous lawsuits or threats of lawsuits!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

schwung

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:23 PM

Ind. Gal -

Two points need to be clarified, AGAIN.

The damage was not insignificant. I believe it was a $7K repair job. And I would also think the pain and trauma to the mare would have been considerable.

Secondly, even if the vet had authority to perform the Caslicks, which I conceded he might have if she signed such a waiver, does not preclude him from having the obligation to NOTIFY her that the procedure was performed.

Independent Gal

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:30 PM

Schwing-It appears to me that most of Cartiers 7K cost came from the ET attempt that they didn't feel they could follow through with due to the external genitalia damage.

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:32 PM

Independent GAl,
I read your post at the bottom of the last page and I think you've lost track of this stupid thread (wish I could as well). I was never at a boarding farm. and the caslick performed on my mare was never on any bill.

AS for what Schwung wrote QUOTE] Secondly, even if the vet had authority to perform the Caslicks, which I conceded he might have if she signed such a waiver[/QUOTE] I just want to clarify that we did NOT sign a waiver that gave the vet the right to do the caslick. And NO other vet before or since has thought it was necessary to do a caslick on this mare. And of course, when the reccomended vet decided to do the caslick, at the very least he should have told us he had done so and mentioned that it had to be opened by such-and-such date before the mare foaled.

And, earlier we had purchased enough imported semen of Lord Sinclair anad Sandro Hit to get one more ET foal from ths mare, adn we had it and Dr. Hurtgen standing by waiting, but because of her injury, we had to miss a breeding cycle.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:32 PM

Cartier - you are the one that said I was ganging up with "george and the gang". I just went back to look to see any previous posts, and if I could find any threads where you were being ganged up against. I am not ganging up, or discussing my thoughts with anyone. I speak from my heart. You can search my topics to see that I have posted about caslicks before. I also have never bred a mare to any of ISFs stallions. I do compete against them. Not sure that is cause for me to defend their actions http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I did say, again and again that you should have been notified that is was done - as soon as possible as an update on your mare. However, if I did caslicks on everymare that was on my farm, I am not sure it would have dawned on me that is was something to "tell". Maybe the contact was something like, "Hello ______, We checked your mare, she is confirmed in foal, single embryo, no fluid, uterine tone good, cervix is tight, everything is done, you can come pick her up anytime. A misunderstanding, certainly, an oversight, maybe. But to me, both parties were at fault to a degree, and like in a traffic accident, you were the last one to be able to avoid the tear. It was there to be seen. I wouldn't think ISF would not believe you wouldn't groom your horse for a year, or wash the vulva before foaling. Do people really not know what their mare (or a mare) looks like? I just can't believe in all of those months, you wouldn't, and the vets dealing with you have seen she had a closed vulva.

I know the first few mares I foaled, I was reading and checking everything in sight, taking temps 4 times a day, constantly jiggling the vulva, and the mucsles back there for weeks. Anyone washing their mares vulva before foaling couldn't help but see that there is no room for the baby to come out.

Talloaks: how am I twisting?

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:33 PM

Daryln,
In a few moment the entire Sport Horse South gang will post. If I lumped you with them and you do not fit, the I apologize .... let’s just agree to disagree and move on.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:39 PM

Thank-you
I am Very Opinionated all by my self http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And there will obviously be lots of people that do things differently than me. That is what makes the world interesting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

CathyKb

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:55 PM

I just wanted to say that if it was my mare, I would expect the vet to pay for repairing and the following treatment to get her back to normal. Also this should include any boarding days that were lost due to her not being able to breed. I am not sue happy, but am glad some people stand up. I have been taken by stallion owners, vets, trainers, and etc. and wished I had taken a stand. I just choose not to do business with them again. Also I will tell others about my experiences when asked. I agree it is time to move on. This thread has taken a turn for the worse. Have a wonderful evening. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

CuriosoJorge

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:56 PM

Cartier, I have no idea who you are assuming I am, but I don't know either Fairview Horse Center or Sporthorse South, and I am not a member of any gang, except the Crips. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have discussed this thread with exactly one other bb'er, and she hasn't posted on it. Your "gang" is just another of your conspiracy theories.

talloaks

Sep. 7, 2004, 03:32 PM

Since we are talking about vets and caslick surgery, what do you think of a vet you ask to perform caslicks on your mare and he declines saying she is young and tight and doesn't need it. I point out her conforamtion and he still says no. That was in the fall after she had her first foal and she had been cultered clean.

Next spring he cultures her and she is infected. Big surprize??? So he treats her with expensive meds and comes daily for a few days. He is making money so what does he care. I am loosing money and time!!

I send her to a breeding farm and sheis bred and conceives with 1/2 dose of frozen semen---but it doesn't survive. This other vet cultures her again and treats her, breeds her with 3/4 of a dose of frozen semen and does the caslick surgery--by the way, I had asked for it and he agreed with me.

The mare is safely in foal. It cost me time and frozen semen and money. My local vet made money so what does he care????

So what is your opinion of this situation??? I haven't had teh tragedy that Cartier had but I beleive my vet made a mistake that cost me but he made money.

Independent Gal

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:05 PM

OK, either I am being obtuse or I am speaking Swahili and my meaning is lost in the translation-Off I go to reread the thread to make more sense of this warped thread.

OK- are you and I arguing over teh fact that I said boarding farm not breeding farm? So, if that IS what you mean then what is the difference really as you board your mare at the breeding farm to be bred?

What really I don't get is why you chose to NAME the parties in your feud on a public BB? Surely we could have gotten the gist of it anonymously. Or do you thrive on public lashings?

Pardon my curiosity with this thread as I have never quite encountered such thoughts and beliefs in the breeding business before now and I find it fascinating.

Ding ding ding

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:09 PM

And Curious George/ Curioso Jorge… since you don’t own a horse and have nothing of value to contribute here, let’s play Guess the Monkey.

I hear you drive a thirty year old Jeep on your Amway rounds. Do the initials CB ring a bell? You couldn’t be RR, unless you’re posting from a public computer. Hmmm… maybe I have some old private posts on this topic.

Chocolatier

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Do the initials CB ring a bell? You couldn’t be RR, unless you’re posting from a public computer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ohhh a game, I love games!

Is it Christian Brando and Ricky Richardo?
Or the Road Runner?

Here is a thought.
Curious George/ Curioso Jorge- its not spanish but rather Italian and its a GC not a CG...alias George Clooney having fun with us from his villa! George you sure do know how to play us! Pass the Vino! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

CuriosoJorge

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:46 PM

I wish I could ride like Chanda Boylen; but I can't and I'm not her. Aren't people in the Navy Sea-Bees? I like boats, I could be one of those!

Alas I don't think George Clooney knows what a Caslicks looks like, either. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Galileo1998

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:00 PM

I've got it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif you're Charles Bronson - you didn't really die, you working in a 7/11 with Elvis (obviously under the assumed name of CuriosoJorge) and in your spare time you like to bug Cartier?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Ok, well maybe not. Randy Rhodes perhaps?? He was pretty darn good at playing guitar, he and Elvis could have a blast at the 7/11 http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

talloaks

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:03 PM

CuriosoJorge~~~~~~~~~~~~I bet you like to wind surf~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!

CuriosoJorge

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:57 PM

Why, because you think I'm full of hot air? Not so much. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:13 PM

I don’t see Charles Bronson as a possibility, he actually owned horses.

And after searching through my old emails, it appears that the group of dedicated COTH’ers who were once hot on our Monkey Boy’s tracks completely lost interest. I’m waiting to hear back from one of them.

Does Jenny ring a bell?

CuriosoJorge

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:17 PM

Hello pot, this is kettle... now you are beginning to sound like a stalker. I have no idea what you are talking about but you have a PT. I don't know any Jennys involved in horses.

talloaks

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:18 PM

CuriosoJorge posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Why, because you think I'm full of hot air? Not so much. Roll Eyes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO NO not that, then you would be a hot air balloon!!

You change with the wind~~~~~!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:20 PM

Btw TallOaks,
Did you ever get a second halter?

talloaks

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:25 PM

Not yet~~~only received one so far but imagine the other is on the way.. You want to use one???

Cartier

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:27 PM

oh lord yes... but I'd need a boat at this point to get up to you. The rain here is .. well .. it's time to build an ark... with no room for snakes of any kind, Copperhead or no.

Actually, I think I'll have Lourdess use Faberge's and buy one for Commander.

We used a recommendation of Pat’s and had the girl’s manes pulled today. They look pretty spiffy. Soggy but spiffy.

Lookout

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:40 PM

If a caslick's is unnecessary for a mare how does performing one maximize the chance of sustaining a pregnancy and carrying a foal to term?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
Damn these vets! How dare they practice veterinary medicine in such a way as to try to maximize the chance of our mares sustaining pregnancy and carrying a foal to term.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mav226

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:43 PM

I've kept out of this fray so far--but I just wanted to mention a few things.

First--is it really that important what people's real names are? You're getting their opinion--that's all that really matters. Imagine if we all had to use our real names. How many of us would feel free to state our honest opinion? Don't attack people for not putting their names. IMO, it's the anonymity that enables people to speak freely.

Second--maybe before this goes any further we can all agree to disagree on just a few things. We can all agree that as a mare owner, we would like to be notified of any surgical procedure. We can disagree about whether it must be before or after the operation. But we can agree we'd all like to know.
We can ALL agree that any pain this poor horse went through was unnecessary. We can disagree about whose fault it was.

I think this is a good discussion, but the namecalling isn't really necessary. And now I'll step back out of the ring. Feel free to proceed with the train wreck.

Chocolatier

Sep. 8, 2004, 03:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Does Jenny ring a bell? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure does here is her number..867-5309. Now you've got her number too!

Cartier

Sep. 8, 2004, 04:38 AM

If you took your 16 year old daughter to the doctors for a pregnancy wellness check and while you were out of the room he put her under local amnesia did a caslick on her and DID NOT BILL YOU and DID NOT TELL YOU … and latter she ripped herself to shreds giving birth because the caslick was not opened before she gave birth, the doctor would be at fault.

This stuff that about how everyone who breeds a Warmblood sport horse is supposed to assume that a vet has done a caslick on the horse is pure baloney This mare had been bred three times before. Each time by a vet (even by different vets) and they did NOT do a caslick on her. The Vets who have examined her since would not have done a caslick on her.

Other mares of ours (and our partners) have been bred and NONE has ever had a caslicks done, none has ever had any surgical procedure done without the client’s KNOWLEDGE AND CONSENT.

IF the farm and vet intend to routinely do a caslick on every mare that comes to their farm for breeding then they must say so IN WRITING. AND they must also say in writing WARNING: This caslick must be opened on such and such a date.

They can not do this surgical procedure without our knowledge and consent knowing that if it is not opened the mare and foal are at risk.. and NOT EVEN BOTHER TO TELL US. They cannot assume that every breeder who comes to their farm knows what a caslick is.

We had never seen a caslick, WE WERE NOT LOOKING FOR A CASLICK. We had no reason to look for a caslick on this mare because we had never authorized one and had never been told it was done. IT was not in any of the billing. It was not apparent to us that she had one. Apparently it was not apparent to Dr. Yates and Dr. Wren who examined her in the months after she returned to us.

I don’t for one moment buy the argument that his negligence is excusable because the dear man is just too busy to accurately note that he had done a caslick on our mare (which would need to be opened before the mare foaled). IF he is in such a state of chaos he should not have taken us as client’s. We could have used Hurtgen and our Lord Sinclair semen (for about one quarter of the price) and not have had any problem with our mare being torn to shreds and missing a breeding cycle). The vet is a licensed professional held to a professional standard and he is no more busy than any client who might have a barn of horses and other life concerns to attend to (like the War in IRAQ for instance). He had a duty to obtain our consent to do the caslick, he had a duty to tell us he had done the caslick and he had a duty to make us aware of a date when it should be opened.

This is NOT about what Darlyn would have assumed or done. And it’s not about what any other of these fabulous experienced breeders would have assumed or done. The farm advertisments and their contract do NOT say, “we only sell semen to Darlyn, Sherry White, Chris Hutchins etc.)

The farm's advertisments and their contract do not say we only sell semen to people who have bred before. The ads say breed to our beautiful stallions, and the contract says we want your money… ASAP and your horse ain’t leaving this farm until all costs and fees are paid in full.

ISF cannot make ANY assumptions about our knowledge of a caslick, which when left unopened put our mare and foal at risk.

graystonefarm

Sep. 8, 2004, 05:37 AM

Ok. Some people are confused here. This is NOT about people. It is about a mare. Yes, it is not a pleasant thing, but it is sometimes absolutely necessary for the health of the mare and any resulting foal. A mare that is 23 years old would LIKELY require it. Obviously the vet felt it necessary. A long term infection will likely, especially in an older mare, affect her health. For example, if her immune system were trying to fight a uterine infection, and she contracted another more serious infection, she may not be able to adequately fight off both infections and may become seriously ill and may not be able to recover. If a mare is older or poorly conformed, any mare in my care would be caslicked, b/c I would consider it a maintenance issue.

Elaine, did your mare have trouble conceiving the first insemination?

nhwr

Sep. 8, 2004, 05:41 AM

When I started breeding sporthorses about 20 years ago Caslicks were the standard especially if you were breeding TBs (as I was then). IMO, it isn't obvious that the procedure has been done after the stitches are removed (especially if you don't know what you are looking at). As I started breeding warmbloods, people thought I was nuts to insists on Caslicks. It just isn't generally done, outside of the racing industry, in my area if the mare has no history of problems and decent conformation. I don't do it anymore.

Bottom line re: Cartier situation; if any one of us had a mare that suffered injury that could easily have been prevented by one sentence from the vet we'd be outraged. And rightly so. I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV but if Cartier had expenses and lost income potential because of the vet failure to tell her that he Caslicked the mare, she was damaged and should be compensated, IMO. The vet obviously thinks so too. That why he put her in touch with his insurance company. Maybe Cartier is being agressive in her approach but who wouldn't be royally PO'ed if they sent their mare to a large and reputable breeding facility and had the same experience she did? If she didn't have a lot of experience with breeding, surely the stallion owner/manager and the vet had an inkling of that. If there were no billing for and no mention of the procedure, the vet clearly screwed up. If the result was a 2nd or 3rd degree tear, I'd be breathing fire http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

talloaks

Sep. 8, 2004, 05:51 AM

nhwr, I think you have explained the situation very well and I agree completely!!

HeyYouNags

Sep. 8, 2004, 06:16 AM

As I posted earlier, the fact that the vet referred the issue to his insurance carrier is *not* an admission of guilt. Whenever a client mentions "lawsuit" or "compensation", the vet is supposed to let the insurance company take over.

I agree with the posters questioning the frequent (I might say incessant http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) mentioning of individual vet and farm names. It's rude and ugly. It's also against COTH BB policies. Might be time to notify the mods.

Cartier has a real knack for pyrotechnics on the BB.

CuriosoJorge

Sep. 8, 2004, 06:16 AM

If your 16 year old daughter is pregnant, you have far bigger problems than worrying about a caslicks.

graystonefarm

Sep. 8, 2004, 06:16 AM

I just don't agree. I believe that if a mare is left in the full care of a repro or breeding facility, it is their job to do whatever it takes to get that job done without having to consult the owner. They already have authority from the owner to get the mare in foal.

From Elaine's posts, she has always portrayed herself as an experienced breeder who knows everything. Why would the vet or employees think it necessary to tell her about caslicks and explain what needs to be done? An experienced breeder would know, or at least know enough to ask. I imported a pregnant mare from Germany late last year and I did check her for caslicks. I even made some phone calls and sent e-mails to Germany to ask. No one knew, however, it was very apparent after she relaxed that she did NOT have caslicks. The vulva will elongate and relax.

Perhaps this is a good lesson for all new breeders. If you're not sure, check. Still not sure, ask. We all learn from our experiences and hopefully never make the same mistake twice. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I am not perfect either. I make mistakes too, but I chalk it up as experience and move on.

Ashemont

Sep. 8, 2004, 06:36 AM

Mav226 -

Some of us have no problem being open and honest AND identifying ourselves. I personally think the annonymity is what allows many of these threads to erupt and I would much prefer to know WHO I am chatting with. If everyone had to actually identify themself then it would go a long way towards weeding out the trolls... as well as the lions, and tigers, and bears - oh MY! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

JMO

genevieveg17

Sep. 8, 2004, 07:04 AM

I think the 16 y.o. should have been caslicked so she could not have had the opportunity to get knocked up

grayfox

Sep. 8, 2004, 07:11 AM

"Local amnesia" Cartier wrote. Does that mean the 16 year old doesn't remember having sex?

HeyYouNags

Sep. 8, 2004, 07:17 AM

I think local amnesia is what the doctor uses on underage girls so they don't remember what actually happened.

Now in that case, I'd agree with the lawsuit.

mbp

Sep. 8, 2004, 08:11 AM

I do think that a mare owner should be informed when a Caslicks is done. Not informing might or might not be negligence, there would just be a whole slew of circumstances to consider.

There is lots of negligence that never gives rise to a legal cause of action, however. To be actionable, the negligence needs to be the PROXIMATE cause of the injury. The facts as recited were that the mare WAS checked by vets after the Caslicks was performed and that those vets simply did not recognize the Caslick.

Those vets would, IMO, have to be negligent to not notice a Caslicks when they saw one. I just don't see how you get around that. They would be the proximate cause. If, for some reason, you want to use the 16 yo daughter example, when she later went to her obgyn for follow up examinations and that obgyn examined her but never "noticed" she was sewn, that would have to be intervening negligence that was the proximate cause.

As to the Caslicks itself, there are a lot of reasons other than poor conformation to have it done. The Caslicks is intended to keep excrement and other matter outside of the vaginal opening. So, mares with very loose vulva, mares with diarrhea, etc. can benefit as well as mares with poor conformation.

When a mare gets a Caslicks (and many performance mares who are not being bred get them - for windsucking and infection and other reasons so mare you buy could have it without your knowledge as well)the tissue line that heals back is usually very thin. A friend mine had a mare that aborted twins at 9 mos and that mare had a Caslicks. Even with still born foals and no attendant (not an ideal situation) the Caslicks ripped very cleanly right down the line. My vets have on several occassions done exactly what someone else mentioned - cut down the Caslicks line without any numbing agent. Even my tb mare who goes beserk over horseflies was fine with this - no twitch, no kicking.

One of the primary things that you begin to look for as a mare approaches her foaling date is relaxation of the vulva. I have never had a repro vet out for 30 day shots who did not check on the status of the vulva. I, as a mare owner, checked it all the time. Every foaling manual you read will mention this sign. There is no way to check for the relaxation of the vulva without noticing they are stitched shut.

Yes, I would be very peeved is someone did a Caslicks without my permission. I would be hopping mad, however, at the vet who was unable to recognize a Caslicked mare. I just can't get over that. I would, of course, be equally furious with myself for never noticing. In any event, I'm sure everyone involved learned a lot and probably no one who was involved with the incident will do things exactly the same again.

Midge

Sep. 8, 2004, 08:27 AM

I am not a breeder and the closest I have come to being a breeder is owning a mare who once had a foal. I am, however a professional braider and spend a bit of time in the nether regions of horses, braiding their tails.

I remember seeing my first caslisks (Caslick's?) and went to the trainer to ask about it. The conversation went something like,

'Um, your mare doesn't have an...um...opening.'
'She's been sewn closed.'
'Yikes!!!'

In any case, it was obvious to the naked eye and I noticed it without even knowing they did such a thing. <shudder>

nhwr

Sep. 8, 2004, 08:39 AM

Yes, Midge but the other thing about Caslicks is some vets remove the stitches, other don't. What about after the stitches are removed? It can be a bit more difficult to tell.

mpb, I agree about the other vets not noticing. That is a problem. They should have caught it. But if the stitches were removed and you are in an area where they aren't that common I can see how they might have missed it. But I guess I just have an issue with a vet performing a procedure that will require follow up and failing to mention to the owner that it was even done.

HeyYouNags

Sep. 8, 2004, 08:58 AM

I'm not that surprised that subsequent vets didn't notice. If they were vaccinating, they wouldn't look at the perineal area. And even on a rectal palpation, the vet isn't doing a lot of looking - it's all feeling. Vet's body position tends to be kind of sideways, arm extended during palpation or ultrasound.

Midge

Sep. 8, 2004, 09:01 AM

nhwr, she didn't have stitches, she just had a ridge. Obviously the shape was still there, but no opening. I somewhat look for it now, just because it's something different.
Most show horses are not stitched, but every once in a while, I'll see one.

Erin

Sep. 8, 2004, 09:09 AM

Please leave names and specifics out of the thread. You can have a discussion about the issue in the abstract, but you're not allowed to name specific people, farms, stallions, etc.

Thanks.

Tiki

Sep. 8, 2004, 09:31 AM

Do you look the other way - perhaps out of modesty - when your mare pees? With a Caslick's you won't see her 'winking' to clear the last drops. The vulva doesn't open and elongate prior to foaling. Unless your other vets didn't lift her tail, or look, when they were out, of course they would have noticed it. They probably thought you knew since you are so all knowing!

talloaks

Sep. 8, 2004, 09:54 AM

Tiki posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>They probably thought you knew since you are so all knowing! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tiki, is this really a necessary comment??? I always thought you were above such things!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Independent Gal

Sep. 8, 2004, 10:49 AM

Really, as much fun as this topic has been, can we just say that overall, the moral of this story is:

Check all vulvas regularly before foaling,most importantly for signs of impending paturition, but also for a Caslicks procedure. Also, sharp kitchen shears work well for emergency openings of both red bags and sutured vulvas! Do not forget to pick a pair up at your next trip to Home Depot or Walmart!

Also, for veterinarians alike, never forget to invoice clients for any procedures as you are losing valuable revenue due to forgetfulness. It just might also save you from unfortunate payouts to irate ex-clients!
What sucked me into this topic originally was the complaint by the original poster about 20 bucks(I am guessing) worth of Regumate to maintain a borderline mare's pregnancy as a precaution! Boy, nine pages later we have evolved into an all-out mud slinging fest! OK carry on!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif