Daily Calming Supps

[maggini]

I'm sure there have been a MILLION posts on this, but I'm kind of focused on finding out if anyone uses a few brands/combinations I've been looking at.

As background, I bought a pretty hot Thoroughbred last fall and he's really been coming along well and has calmed down significantly at home. He's been pretty well-behaved at schooling shows, but that wasn't the case at our first horse trial. I don't mind the bad behavior so much as I mind the fact that he seemed tense and worried all weekend. That can't be good for him.

I've already put him on a 2 week regimen of generic gastrogard to clear up any existing problems. After the 2 weeks he'll go off the gastrogard at home and only get it before/during/right after horse shows. I chose KERx's RiteTrac as an at-home GI tract supplement that'll be a whole lot cheaper than gastrogard.

I've been recommended to use KER's B-Quiet powder (http://www.ker.com/products/supplements/BQuietPowder/) in conjunction with the paste at shows. The powder is only vitamin B-1, someone gave me an explanation that they develop a resistance to the effects of magnesium after a while so it's only in the paste as a booster. I'm a big skeptic and don't really believe this, but the supplement itself came with high recommendations.

I was recommended to use Perfect Prep (http://www.perfectprepeq.com/perfectPrepEqExtreme.aspx) at shows by my trainer. I really like the looks of it and can get it through SmartPak or my vet. I was also, however, looking at putting my horse on their daily supplement, the Perfect Prep Training Day Powder http://www.perfectprepeq.com/perfectPrepEqTrainingDay.aspx).

Finally, my trainer said that she uses SmartCalm Ultra (http://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=4589) and has noticed a difference in one of her horses. Of the daily supplements SmartPak offers, I think I like it the best and it is completely USEF legal.

Does anyone have experience with these or other daily calming supplements and can offer any advice as to how/why I should choose one over the other?

[ShowMeTheGlory]

I have used the SmartCalm Ultra and it is good stuff! Smells yummy too!

[FoxChaser]

I have used regular SmartCalm with good results to get one of my OTTBs going early his first season.

[roki143]

Calm and Focus by Ramard!!!

Seriously. It has some sort of ingredient that lowers the chemical that makes them on edge (I hate technical things. :) ). Doesn't make them sluggish or anything... it just makes them "take a breath". Works AWESOME.

Even for a horse that doesn't need a calming supplement, but just needs to 'Focus' a bit more, it works wonders. And you can show on it. (comes in a daily powder, or a syringe to give day-off show).

[jenm]

I have been using Smart Calm Ultra for about three months now and am really happy with it. My TB mare can be spooky and jumpy, and this seems to really take the edge off. She is still spooky and jumpy, just in a more contained manner. :)

[deltawave]

And you can show on it.

Not under FEI rules. No matter what the advertisements say, you are always, always wise to run a supplement by the USEF Drugs & Medications gurus first.

[roki143]

Not under FEI rules. No matter what the advertisements say, you are always, always wise to run a supplement by the USEF Drugs & Medications gurus first.

I don't claim to know anything about anything... but I do know several FEI competitors who have competed on it and been tested with no complications -- I have never done it personally in FEI, so I'm just repeating what I know.*


*which means, take what I know with a grain of salt. :D

[Melyni]

I'm sure there have been a MILLION posts on this, but I'm kind of focused on finding out if anyone uses a few brands/combinations I've been looking at.

As background, I bought a pretty hot Thoroughbred last fall and he's really been coming along well and has calmed down significantly at home. He's been pretty well-behaved at schooling shows, but that wasn't the case at our first horse trial. I don't mind the bad behavior so much as I mind the fact that he seemed tense and worried all weekend. That can't be good for him.

I've already put him on a 2 week regimen of generic gastrogard to clear up any existing problems. After the 2 weeks he'll go off the gastrogard at home and only get it before/during/right after horse shows. I chose KERx's RiteTrac as an at-home GI tract supplement that'll be a whole lot cheaper than gastrogard.

I've been recommended to use KER's B-Quiet powder (http://www.ker.com/products/supplements/BQuietPowder/) in conjunction with the paste at shows. The powder is only vitamin B-1, someone gave me an explanation that they develop a resistance to the effects of magnesium after a while so it's only in the paste as a booster. I'm a big skeptic and don't really believe this, but the supplement itself came with high recommendations.

I was recommended to use Perfect Prep (http://www.perfectprepeq.com/perfectPrepEqExtreme.aspx) at shows by my trainer. I really like the looks of it and can get it through SmartPak or my vet. I was also, however, looking at putting my horse on their daily supplement, the Perfect Prep Training Day Powder http://www.perfectprepeq.com/perfectPrepEqTrainingDay.aspx).

Finally, my trainer said that she uses SmartCalm Ultra (http://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=4589) and has noticed a difference in one of her horses. Of the daily supplements SmartPak offers, I think I like it the best and it is completely USEF legal.

Does anyone have experience with these or other daily calming supplements and can offer any advice as to how/why I should choose one over the other?

Most horses show a calmer more focused response if you increase the amount of magnesium in the diet.
In fact that's how most of these work, they are basically magnesium supplements sometime with and sometimes without B vits, and or herbs.
The Mg and the B vits are legit as they are bona fide feed ingredients. The herbs are questionable as they can cause drug responses and can test as drugs.

There are several ways to add in Mg, lots of different supplements available. The best way to do it is to check out how much Mg each offers per dose and how much it costs per dose.
Pick the one that gives you the best value for money, as in the most Mg per dollar.
One Mg supplement you can try for free is Quiessence. You call Foxden Equine on 540-337-5450 and they will send you a free sample to try, that way you can see if it helps, before you have to buy any.

Hope this helps
Yours
MW

[deltawave]

I do know several FEI competitors who have competed on it and been tested with no complications

Doesn't mean it's legal, it means they got away with it. If a substance has performance-altering properties, it's banned under FEI rules. Of course, most if not all of these "calming supplements" are either drugs and will test or are worthless anyhow. :)

[I<3Sleepy]

I started my hot horse on SmartCalmUltra last fall and it has made all the difference in the world! I like it because it doesn't have any of the herbs that test, it's affordable and it WORKS! Jack is still Jack, but the edge is gone and we are able to work through issues instead of freaking out about them. Definitely not worthless - it's a night and day difference from before to now.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Do any of you really think it is ok to use an over the counter medicine/supplement to calm (modify behavior and therefore performance) a horse for showing? Not deceitful? How about if a seller had a horse you purchased on one, and didn't happen to mention that "supplement"? That is OK with you too?

[Melyni]

Do any of you really think it is ok to use an over the counter medicine/supplement to calm (modify behavior and therefore performance) a horse for showing? Not deceitful? How about if a seller had a horse you purchased on one, and didn't happen to mention that "supplement"? That is OK with you too?

an insufficiency of a normal nutrient then addressing the problem by correcting the nutritional insufficiency is perfectly legit.
Thus adding extra magnesium and or B vits are not a problem.
If you affect behavior by giving a pharmacologically active substance that would not normally appear in the diet, then no, it isn't legit.

Yours
MW

[deltawave]

Do any of you really think it is ok to use an over the counter medicine/supplement to calm (modify behavior and therefore performance) a horse for showing? Not deceitful? How about if a seller had a horse you purchased on one, and didn't happen to mention that "supplement"? That is OK with you too?

This is sort of where I am, too. Of course I think 99.9% of the effect noted is simply passage of time and wishful thinking on the part of owners, but I would certainly not want to be unaware that a horse I was shopping for "needed" a calming supplement. If nothing else, it would give me an indication of the seller's level of ability to handle a "hot" horse. :p A spinoff ponderable--I wonder how many extreme upper-level trainers bother with these things?

[Melyni]

This is sort of where I am, too. Of course I think 99.9% of the effect noted is simply passage of time and wishful thinking on the part of owners, but I would certainly not want to be unaware that a horse I was shopping for "needed" a calming supplement. If nothing else, it would give me an indication of the seller's level of ability to handle a "hot" horse. :p A spinoff ponderable--I wonder how many extreme upper-level trainers bother with these things?

Plenty, if my sales list is anything to go by.
MW

[I<3Sleepy]

Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center
Do any of you really think it is ok to use an over the counter medicine/supplement to calm (modify behavior and therefore performance) a horse for showing? Not deceitful? How about if a seller had a horse you purchased on one, and didn't happen to mention that "supplement"? That is OK with you too?

Are you saying that if you were lacking in overall health and decided to take a multivitamin as a supplement that you are then giving yourself an unfair advantage over other atheletes who don't regularly take vitamins? No, because that's stupid. You are looking out for your health, physically and mentally. Just as I am doing for my horse.

I see no deciet whatsoever in what I am doing with him. He is lacking a nutrient, and if that weren't the case I wouldn't have him on the supplement to begin with. He has a nutrient insufficiency, not a physical talent insufficiency! The only difference it has made from before the supplement to now is that he can FOCUS better. It didn't morph him into a dead-quiet pushbutton horse. It didn't modify his behavior to the point that anybody would look at him before and now and say "My, he must be drugged!" It also didn't all of a sudden make him a 4* eventer!

If nothing else, it would give me an indication of the seller's level of ability to handle a "hot" horse.

I spent 2 years with this horse NOT on supplementation, trust me I can handle it. But why should he suffer with something that isn't his fault? Why does there have to be a cookie-cutter mold for him to fit into? Is he less of an eventer because he needs a supplement? Should I look down on the eventer with crappy feet then? Or the one who needs joint injections at an early age? No, because every horse is different and every horses needs are different. If you never need a magnesium supplement for your horse - good for you! But I won't scoff at you for looking into something that puts your horses best interest first; be it feet, GI, joints, etc.

I do agree that a lot of "results" from supplementation are in the eye of the beholder, but to say that all results are 99.9% wishful thinking is ignorance, in my opinion. Don't bash it until you know.

//rant off! :winkgrin:

[deltawave]

I do make a very large distinction between supplying vitamins and minerals, only a glaring deficiency of which can impact behavior, and the majority of other "calming supplements" which even if they don't work are very definitely intended to change a horse's behavior. Those I lump with tranquilizers and sedatives, which are of course illegal in the intent if not the letter of the rules. Valerian, etc. are in this category and only the fact that they will test keeps more people from using them.

To extend the analogy in a Devil's advocate mode, if a horse's temperament and behavior is so difficult that "giving him something" makes him a better competitor, how is this different from giving a horse a little bute to mask a subtle lameness, thereby making him a better competitor? :confused: (other than the obvious legality issue)

And I have tried them all, never noticed one iota of improvement one way or the other. Of course this was 10 years ago--back then there were only probably 10-12 calming products as opposed to the 50 or more that are out there today. :no:

[I<3Sleepy]

Without meeting my guy it's impossible for anybody to know how much this product has helped him. But let it be known that I DO NOT supplement him to make him less "difficult" - if I thought he were too difficult he wouldn't be my horse. I DO NOT supplement him to give myself an unfair advantage, or really any advantage, over anybody else. I supplement him because I want him to be as happy and healthy as possible.

If I were giving him magnesium to enhance his performance and give myself an unfair advantage, let me tell you, I fail! He recently competed and finished 4th in his first ever event. We scored a 43.5 in our dressage test, definitely near the bottom of the pack. Judges comments: tight, tense, stiff, braced. Did he jump double clean SJ & XC because of SmartCalmUltra? Absolutely not! He did his job because he loves it, because he's comfortable, and because he wanted to; not because of any supplement. So maybe I DO have an advantage over some other competitors: my horse loves his job! :winkgrin:

If you want to play devil's advocate - what about joint injections? Adequan? UlcerGuard? All of these treat a symptom of some underlying cause - by "fixing" the problem area all of a sudden your horse is more competitive because he feels better. How is adding magnesium to a magnesium-deficient horse's diet any different?

I'm actually having some fun with this - this is what I get for having the stomach flu and being stuck in bed for a whole weekend!

[maggini]

I didn't mean to incite a debate here over whether calming supplments are ethical. All of the supplements I mentioned do not have any ingredients that are on the USEF's list of banned substances.

The decision to put my horse on a daily calming supplement is part of a comprehensive health program under the guidance of my vet. I told her about his behavior at the show- worried, tense, much more stereotypie behavior than usual, not wanting to eat well. After talking to her, we came up with the gastrogard plan and she said that adding a magnesium/B-1 supplement can sometimes also help. I doubt my horse is deficient because he's on a quality locally milled complete feed, but much like GLC 5500, which I feed just in case it does work, I'm going to try my horse on a calming supplement because it can't hurt. It may just be throwing my money down the drain (I'm a supplement-skeptic if you can't tell), but the chance that it might help increase my horse's comfort is worth it to me.

And if it's not ethical to try and increase my horse's health and comfort, why are vitamin/mineral supplements, steroidal joint injections, gastrogard, and certain doses of NSAIDs all legal under USEF rules?

p.s.- the general consensus is that SmartCalm works well... has anyone had experience with the Perfect Prep? I'm kind of leaning towards the SmartCalm but will probably try a paste 'booster' for the first few 'away' shows just to try and make them as positive of an experience as possible until we've got more of a history together.

[piccolittle]

My friend used something called Su-Per Mag Calm on her horse who had injured himself and was on stall rest. She said it really did wonders for his nerves and enabled her to hand walk him through a year of very strict stall rest. This is a very quiet horse to begin with but he does go completely nuts when confined for so long.

[deltawave]

Judges comments: tight, tense, stiff, braced.And yet you claim the product works to the level of making "all the difference in the world?" :confused:

I am not a "no, never" type about using things to make a horse more comfortable. I even support the reduction of restriction on NSAIDs for competing horses, so horses with a few little owies can be made more comfortable. And I specifically mentioned FEI rules (not USEF) for a reason--they are VERY different and worth educating ourselves about if we go around at those levels or are aiming in that direction.

Sometimes the "cure" for a horse that's nervous and anxious at shows is to go to more shows. :) Of course people do that AND use the supplement, and the horse's eventual adaptation is credited to the supplement more often than not. :lol: At least this is my perception.

[keeneland]

I use Quiessence, as it has magnesium which helps in calming. I found out about this through a top show-jumper who uses it on her horses. I would definitely give it a try!

[I<3Sleepy]

I never said it made him RELAXED, I said it helped him FOCUS. He's not nervous at shows, he just needs help to focus period, regardless of where he is. For the FOCUS, yes the supplement HAS made all the difference in the world. Now to make more money so we can actually get to more shows!!

[JB]

First thing I'd do is take him back to a hay-only diet for a week, see if his demeanor changes, even if he loses a little weight.

Then start adding back his regular feedstuff and see if anything changes (better or worse). If worse, then you know you have an allergen of sorts.

If none of that makes a difference, I'd get a small tub of B1 and use that for a week or 2. It's very easy for a B1 deficiency to cause attention and "hot" issues. It's even fairly likely if the horse is or has been on a high sugar diet, even if you remove the sugars.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

When I hear words such as "Tight, tense, stiff and braced," I think of a training issue.

So this horse that the above quote was said about is not nervous or relaxed? I'm confused.

Well, anyway, onto the subject at hand. A friend put her gelding on B1 and said that she noticed a difference with him on it and off of it. I can see how it would work if the horse were deficient. Same with something like magnesium.

It doesn't appear that SmartCalm Ultra does this, but, I don't necessarily approve of the introduction of calming herbs into the equation.

Another boarder just put her very quiet (if he were anymore quiet he'd be dead) horse on SmartCalm Ultra simply because he got a little worked up at the canter one day when asked to hold himself.

It's situations like that that rub me the wrong way with calming supplements. In my mind, that is a training issue that you have to work through with the horse. Do you think my horse loved carrying himself and doing lateral movements at first? No. It was work and hard work at that. But you work though it with the horse, get him to focus on you and the task at hand and let him know this is something he has to do. End of story. I don't need a calming supplement for the fact that he kicked out when first learning how to do haunches in or when he doesn't seemed focused on his work and would rather canter around with his head in the air. Those are training issues that we will and have solved together.

It'd be interesting to test the horse and see if there is a deficiency in the area before supplementation or if it's just purely anecdotal evidence we're seeing here that may or may not correlate directly to the effect of the calming supplement. It's amazing how the human mind can convince itself and how well marketing works.

[deltawave]

It'd be interesting to test the horse and see if there is a deficiency in the area before supplementation or if it's just purely anecdotal evidence we're seeing here that may or may not correlate directly to the effect of the calming supplement. It's amazing how the human mind can convince itself and how well marketing works.

This kind of subversive thinking would up-end the entire supplement industry, and THEN where would we be? :winkgrin:

[JB]

Ok, so how easy is it to test for a true Mg or B1 deficiency?

And what does "deficient" really mean? Can a horse not test "within normal range" according to what is on the books as "normal range", but still be deficient because he's on the high end of what defined "normal range"?

[deltawave]

There are a couple of tests for B1 deficience . . . ketolase something or other? A test of red blood cells. This is a vague shadow at the edge of my memory but I do think testing is do-able.

People too often (IMO) ignore the depth and breadth of symptoms of dietary/nutrient deficiencies when zeroing in on them as keys to behavior problems. Thiamine deficiency causes a WHOLE BUNCH of symptoms, only a few of which would manifest behaviorally. And a lot of the behavioral symptoms are lethargy, lassitude, etc. and not necessarily excitability or being "hot". This is where I think the discussion gets a little too one-sided.

[tabula rashah]

Personally, I don't show and my horses aren't for sale.... so

I've used Smart Calm Ultra on a very high energy Anglo-Arab. Made a huge difference!!! I'll actually be boarding him for a couple of months to get him going under saddle (a place with an indoor to get out of all this #$&#(* mud!!!). He'll definitely be on it while he's there- I want all the focus out of him I can get while I'm having to pay board- LOL! But he will probably come back off it when it gets home.

BTW, I can tell the difference in less than a week when he's on it.

[hollyhorse2000]

I'm currently using Smart Calm ultra for a suddenly stall-bound horse that, if she jumps around when being hand-grazed, is going to prolong her recovery. It's only been a few days on the stuff, but she seems to be jumping out of her skin less. I"ve been able to NOT ace her, so that's a good thing. I wouldn't intent to use it permanently, but for now, it seems to be helping. Is it just my imagination? Maybe, but the stuff won't hurt her and it's not expensive, so why not???

[manyspots]

Another SmartCalm Ultra user here.

Also, do not show and horses are at home. I have a nervous nelly who internalizes everything... which adds fuel to the fire when it comes to tying up. He was diagnosed (via genetic testing) with PSSM and so his diet is managed. He does very well with large doses of magnesium for this condition and by adding the SmartCalm Ultra I kill a bunch o' birds with one stone. I get to take the edge off, hence less stress, and get the magnesium into him for the muscle aches.

What a difference. It took about two weeks for me to see it... now about 5 weeks later I am thoroughly impressed! Not only is he moving better, but he handles "scary" much better. Still full of energy, just less nervous. Could be the B1 in it helping too. Hard to say.

Ultimately, for this horse, he is better for it. When we did show, we did it au natural and he was a handful. Which was fine. I don't use it to change him, I use it to help him.

[katarine]

Meh, I'm happy with my TWH who is a tense thinker over doer let's go go go horse. He's on about a 1/4 cup of epsom salts a day (magnesium) and about the same amt of raspberry leaves (supposedly calming). That goes on his scoop of Triple Crown Complete plus a tbs of paprika. I would think it tastes horrible but he hoovers it up. Add in a splash of alfalfa pellets and you'll tick him off, however. LOL.

He's been on this mumbo jumbo mix for several months. Now those several months roughly coincide with us starting dressage lessons, too. He also turned 8 this year and is very much a saner horse than he was as a 4 YO.

FWIW we attended our first dressage show ever this past Saturday. It was in the mid 40s and blowing rain, miserable. Lots of jumpy fizzy horses. He really never batted an eye. He had some mildly loose manure, but no signs of tension in his body, his tail hung straight and it'll wander left if he's tight. He was SO good, that he won the Intro A & B classes and earned the High-Point award for the dressage competition overall. If I could only convey to you how amazing it is that THIS horse was calm, cool, and collected, you'd really understand where I'm coming from. Some of you do, it's pretty amazing for him.

So whether it's age or dressage or the planets, he'll stay where he's at on the food board.

[Mimi La Rue]

Calm and Focus by Ramard!!!

Seriously. It has some sort of ingredient that lowers the chemical that makes them on edge (I hate technical things. :) ). Doesn't make them sluggish or anything... it just makes them "take a breath". Works AWESOME.

Even for a horse that doesn't need a calming supplement, but just needs to 'Focus' a bit more, it works wonders. And you can show on it. (comes in a daily powder, or a syringe to give day-off show).

I tried my horse on this and it didn't do squat. Are you giving this to your horse a few hours prior to a ride? I give my horse his supplements at night so I am wondering if it may wear off by the time I come down the next evening to get him out. I've been giving him the daily powder version.

[Melyni]

There are a couple of tests for B1 deficience . . . ketolase something or other? A test of red blood cells. This is a vague shadow at the edge of my memory but I do think testing is do-able.

People too often (IMO) ignore the depth and breadth of symptoms of dietary/nutrient deficiencies when zeroing in on them as keys to behavior problems. Thiamine deficiency causes a WHOLE BUNCH of symptoms, only a few of which would manifest behaviorally. And a lot of the behavioral symptoms are lethargy, lassitude, etc. and not necessarily excitability or being "hot". This is where I think the discussion gets a little too one-sided.


A blood test (in the veterinary world) will cost you from $50 - $150 dollars depending on just what you had tested, plus the call out fee for the vet who has to draw the sample and then send it in.
A sample bag of Quiessence is free, or if you had to buy one, $30.00 and if in the course of the time it took to use up the bag you found that the horse improved, you might assume that it was the supplement which helped.
And it cost you $30.00 whereas the blood test was at least $50.00 and still might not give you an answer.

We often do test the horses to see if they are low on Mg, it's a simple blood test, and many of these hot tense horses are marginal to lo. When they are supplemented the muscle tenseness improves along with the hyperexciteability and the subsequent blood test shows an increased level of Mg.


So yes, in an ideal world, we would ask every one to test first, in practice most folk won't and would rather do a 'diagnoses by treatment'.

Magnesium works if the horse is low in Mg in the first place, if the horse has sufficient Mg then it won't. They don't get 'resistant ' to Mg any more than they get 'resistant' to calcium or phosphorus. It's that when they get supplemented, then they are getting enough and no more changes them any further. They are at the required level of Mg and any excess is just excreted out.

A lot of horses are Mg deficient. Far more than is generally recognized. There is no routine testing for Mg, though maybe there ought to be.

Many years ago as a Grad Student at VA Tech, I assisted with a study on mineral levels in horses in general all across VA. from the Chesapeake to the Blue Ridge, they pulled blood and did mineral assays.
80% of those horses showed low to marginal Mg, low enough in some cases that if there were cattle they would have been dying of hypomagnasemia. But horses are tougher than cattle and they don't go down in convulsions and die, but they do show other symptoms, muscle problems, an inability to relax, hyperexcitability etc.

That's when I decided that what was needed was a magnesium supplement, and that's when I started Quiessence, which was the first one out. And it has helped a lot of hypomagnasemic horses since. I used to ask folk to have the vet draw blood and test first, but in general it is easier to just suggest they try the Mg supplement and see if it helps. It costs them a lot less to do it that way esp as I give away the samples.

Mg is safe, easy to administer, and impossible to overdose (by mouth), so why not let folk try it and see if it helps the horse without all the expense and trouble of getting the vet out to pull blood.

YMMV.

Yours
MW