We had an ulcer scoping clinic today at the farm - fascinating !! [Archive]

crazy gray horse

Mar. 13, 2010, 05:02 PM

My vet clinic and Merial hosted a free ulcer scoping clinic today at the farm where I board 2 horses. It was fascinating to watch. They scoped about 20 horses and 4 had ulcers and 2 had bots :eek: I hung around for most of the day to watch the other horses just because it was so interesting - call me weird.

One of my horses happened to be one of the ulcer horses, which didn't surprise me. He's had a huge attitude change since I started boarding him last fall. So I'm glad it's a fixable thing (although not happy at the cost :().

Gayla

Mar. 13, 2010, 05:23 PM

There are people on here that are very clever with saving money on ulcer treatment. Do some searching and you should find some ideas.

msj

Mar. 13, 2010, 05:39 PM

Ditto what Gayla said about checking out multiple places to get a decent price on the Gastrogard.

Your clinic sounds neat. I sure wish our vet hospital would do that with Merial. If I want my horse scoped, I have to either truck him to Cornell (a good 2 hr drive) or to another vet clinic over an hr away. Since I no longer have a trailer, it would end up costing me as much as it does the monthly dosing of GG.

I'm almost finished with the month long Gastrogard dosing. It's kind of a last ditch effort to see if maybe it will help my guy not get gas colic attacks as frequently as he does. :( Since 2008 he's had 13 episodes. Usually 10 cc Banamine PO and 40 minutes or so on the lunge line and he's fine but I've had several 'relapses' that I had to call the vet out because I knew I couldn't give him another dose of Banamine that soon.

Vet and I agree that my horse is about the least ulcer-prone horse possible BUT he is an OTTB who then did 6 events one summer from Beginner Novice to Training level before I bought him. Course that was 11 yrs ago and he hasn't even been ridden since 2007. :sigh:

He's got 24/7 turnout unless the weather is vile and he's got hay or grass in front of him 24/7. He's a big framed TB (a lot of people think he's a warmblood because he's got so much bone and butt and chest)! :D He's an easy keeper (1 qt SafeChoice/day + 2.5 qt of warm soaked beet pulp as well as fresh water twice/day and warm in the winter. Personally, I think the horse is just a drug addict! :eek: :D

Noctis

Mar. 13, 2010, 06:36 PM

Thats pretty awesome! I wish we had that resource closer. It would be interesting to find out more about how many horses really DO have ulcers. 'Course, it would be interesting to see about the OWNERS too :yes:

SLW

Mar. 13, 2010, 08:01 PM

What is fun is to compare the data the 'ulcer free' and 'ulcer found' horses because it doesn't always end up how your hunch would go.

My just now 3 year old colt is wanting to be the Merial Gastroguard Poster Boy- the lil hippie has been treated for ulcers twice in his tender life, second time due to a Merial scoping clinic last July. :cool: What is working right now is free choice brome hay, 1# of Calf Manna (a.m. only) and soaked beet pulp w/ alfalfa chops twice daily. He needed to gain weight last fall and the SafeChoice grain wasn't working at the amount I felt comfortable feeding so I decided to go w/ Calf Manna, get the important calories in him in one feeding and **hopefully** reduce the odds of creating gastric ulcers.

He has been on Smart Paks Smart Gut for three weeks but the real test begins in 48 hours....he ships out for training.

WB Mom

Mar. 14, 2010, 11:16 AM

My Trainer/BO is very proactive as far as horse management goes.
Put my horse on U-Gard a few years ago not because we suspected ulcers, but because he just seemed to worry too much. Great improvement, he's just a happier all around horse. I'm glad we tried it when we did, I suspect we nipped it in the bud prior to having to use stronger, more expensive stuff. Hopefully he can maintain on it as it's so cheap. His getting older (now 8) also seems to be helping.

deltawave

Mar. 14, 2010, 11:44 AM

Merial hosted a free ulcer scoping clinic todayOf course they did. Free? Not for the owners of the horses diagnosed.

I've got NO beef with treating ulcers if they are symptomatic. But I do wish someone would do some good research on the actual incidence and relevance of "silent" ulcers, comparing horses with these to "ulcer free" horses who demonstrate "typical" ulcer symptoms. Are ulcers ALWAYS a disease, or pathological? Do all ulcers need to be treated? Are there some situations where they are not and do not? My strong suspicion is that the cause-and-effect is not nearly as well understood as it needs to be. And also that Merial is about to lose their patent, so they're raking in some more customers while they can. :lol:

SLW

Mar. 14, 2010, 02:14 PM

Addin to Deltawave, it provides more data for Merials program. Instead of having to feed/shelter/ride/show 1000 or more horses a year for research they draw in the general public. Not a problem, IMO, as long as you understand it.

KnKShowmom

Mar. 14, 2010, 02:24 PM

Percheron X

Mar. 14, 2010, 02:48 PM

Auventera Two

Mar. 14, 2010, 02:50 PM

Of course they did. Free? Not for the owners of the horses diagnosed.

I've got NO beef with treating ulcers if they are symptomatic. But I do wish someone would do some good research on the actual incidence and relevance of "silent" ulcers, comparing horses with these to "ulcer free" horses who demonstrate "typical" ulcer symptoms. Are ulcers ALWAYS a disease, or pathological? Do all ulcers need to be treated? Are there some situations where they are not and do not? My strong suspicion is that the cause-and-effect is not nearly as well understood as it needs to be. And also that Merial is about to lose their patent, so they're raking in some more customers while they can. :lol:

My horse was diagnosed via a "free" Merial scoping clinic. I was glad I didn't have to pay $350 for the scope on top of the medication! :eek: When I called to make an appointment for suspected ulcers, they told me about the upcoming clinic. I would have had the scope regardless - free clinic or not. So for me, it was a huge savings.

And from my understanding, Merial has been doing these free clinics for years, so it is not a new money making scheme they just cooked up.

Also worth noting - because I attended the clinic, I ended up getting several hundred dollars back in rebate coupons! I did pay for the medication up front but got some of it back through the rebates. They sent me a total of 4 coupons each good for 2 free tubes. I bought them full price at the vet clinic so that was about $320 in free coupons.

And what's more - everybody who did the clinic got the free coupons - whether your horse was diagnosed or not! Another girl that was there ended up giving me her coupons! :D So all total I ended up 16 free tubes and I used them over the next year for maintenance.

Auventera Two

Mar. 14, 2010, 02:55 PM

It is my understanding that in order to scope a horse you must withhold feed/hay/water for several or more hours prior to the scope, so it makes one wonder how much of an impact that has on the final outcome.

When we suspected our horse had ulcers, we had the option of going to VT for scoping but instead we treated as such and he responded great which to me confirmed our suspicions.

I just wonder how curious owners actually aggrivate a potential ulcer into a full blown one during these clinics.

My horse could not eat or drink for 12 hours prior to the scope.

They don't just say "yes your horse has ulcers" and that's that. Ulcers are graded according to severity. They measure and examine the margins of the lesions, how granulated the tissue is, how thick they are, etc.

Yes, withholding food certainly aggravates ulcers but you're not going to "cause a full blown case" by withholding food for 12 hours. It just doesn't work that way. Ulcers are lesions - sores - that need time to develop. It can happen in just a few days, from what I've read, but you're not going to have cause a belly full of lesions after 12 hours. If that's what they find on the scope, then you can be sure the damage was there long before that 12 hour period.

A horse that just has some areas of reddening might only do the maintenance dose for a couple weeks. My horse's lesions were very extensive so she did full tubes for 35 days.

They are pretty good at telling you the severity and recommending treatment accordingly.

crazy gray horse

Mar. 14, 2010, 06:45 PM

That is fascinating.... What sort of differences had you noticed in his attitude prior to the diagnosis?

He started getting mean! He's a normally social, interactive and loving horse. But since he started boarding at this particular facility, he became increasingly mean - can't find another word to describe him. He started nipping and biting, became hard to handle on a lead and became very irritable about being touched.

He was graded as level 1 or mild on the classification scale. He'll be treated for 2 weeks at full dose, then 2 weeks at 1/2 dose.

For what it's worth, I had initially called the vet because I have a TB filly I got from FL in Dec that I felt showed signs of ulcers and I wanted to scope her. Vet told me about the clinic coming up so that I might save the cost of scoping! Unfortunately, the filly still isn't trailering yet, so I couldn't get her to the clinic. Since I had 2 slots in the clinic, I opted to take my other FL lakes horse. Chequer raced for 4 years and had 50 starts. He had some old minor scarring, but otherwise was clean!! The Merial rep remarked that he's likes his new life ;)

A2 is correct - no food for 12 hours and water is removed 4 hours before the scope. And while withholding food for that period of time may irritate the stomach, it won't cause ulcers in that short a time. It will make for angry horses though :D

We do get a rebate on the gastrgard, I think it's $3 a tube.

Thomas_1

Mar. 14, 2010, 06:59 PM

Tegan

Mar. 14, 2010, 07:10 PM

I did one of these clinics with my mare. I know a vet who rides with my trainer and she signed me up for it since she knew my mare was having some problems.

I found the Merial staff to be pretty bad. They couldn't really figure out what they were doing and acted confused most of the time. The referring vet had to take over and do the scoping for them. And then when we pulled the scope out, the camera was stuck, hence all the problems. I don't know if that was a freak incident or not though.

I did get a lot of good coupons. I think I got $5 off per tube for 20(?) tubes and then a smaller discount for another 20 or something like that. The rep gave me a lot of extra coupons, she probably felt bad.

But I was glad that we got to know for sure about the ulcers. My mare was still eating and shiny, but she was mean and crabby and had fits under saddle where she refused to move forward. She was given a grade 2 diagnosis.

Withholding food for 12 hours isn't going to make a big difference. It's the only way to be able to see the stomach clearly and make an accurate diagnosis, so I think it is definitely worth doing the scoping (for free) rather than spending hundreds of dollars on medicine and not knowing for sure.

rmh_rider

Mar. 14, 2010, 07:18 PM

WEIRD?

No way. I would have stayed around all day too. Interesting. Wow, bots! What did those look like? Probably like the pictures we see. Did they owners right away worm the horse? How big were the bots?

Amazing.

Gayla

Mar. 14, 2010, 08:24 PM

I can't help feeling that rather than spending so much time, money and effort on diagnosing and treating ulcers that it would be a heck of a lot better to get a horse on a management regime where it didn't get them in the first place.
I think this same sad thing when I hear of a another "famous" horse having colic surgery. :no: I know that these type maladies are not totally preventable. But many instances of them are man made. Too bad.

To add to what Delta Wave said. Drug companies really start making the serious cash as they lower the level of severity of a disorder or illness that needs to be treated with their drugs. A good example are anti-depressants. They were once for people with severe depression but the drug companies have marketed them down the symptom scale to include people with less severe symptoms. This is the same for animal drugs. Just so you go into these type things with your eyes open. I would definitely do it if there was one near me.

deltawave

Mar. 14, 2010, 08:29 PM

they lower the level of severity of a disorder or illness that needs to be treated with their drugs

Indeed. Ulcers can heal by themselves, or with far more humble drugs than omeprazole. But as they're all cheap and generic, there's nobody putting them in spiffy carriers and spending big R&D bucks to bring them to market.

crazy gray horse

Mar. 14, 2010, 08:39 PM

I can't help feeling that rather than spending so much time, money and effort on diagnosing and treating ulcers that it would be a heck of a lot better to get a horse on a management regime where it didn't get them in the first place.

I couldn't agree with you more Thomas. And I'll be the first to admit that I feel somewhat responsible and have a case of the "what ifs". While this horse has always been a bit herd bound, with a short attention span, he's never displayed any type of ulcer symptoms - ever! Last fall I sent him to the trainers for 45 days then moved him to a barn closer to home for the winter. Current barn moved him in and out of several herds, before I finally managed to get him in a 1/2 day T/O with my other horse. There has been an issue with hay at times (or lack there of) and a couple of other minor issues. From the time he got to this barn, we started to have attitude problems that just got worse. All of the issues have been ironed out, mostly because I'm in and out of the barn several times a day to micromanage his care. And, the horse will be coming home in a few weeks.

SLW

Mar. 14, 2010, 09:09 PM

I can't help feeling that rather than spending so much time, money and effort on diagnosing and treating ulcers that it would be a heck of a lot better to get a horse on a management regime where it didn't get them in the first place.

As a sidenote: the reason my 2 year old QTR colt was asked to participate was because he had ulcers at age 7 months and was treated. After that episode his diet was changed to be ulcer preventative- that meant quit feeding 12% Nutrena pellets and switch to minimal amount of Safe Choice by Nutrena. He was already living outside 24/7 in the pasture with my two other mature horses. So we had a 2 year old, lives at home, not in work, eating the "ulcer preventative diet" colt....and he had an ulcer. Based on something I saw a month back I have now removed the Safe Choice from his diet and he is fed 1# of Calf Manna a day, for his growth needs.

My guess is ulcers are probably going to be normal for him and something we'll have to watch (attitude and how he is eating) and manage (ulcer preventative supplement & Ulcergard). OTOH my two mature horses are hardy & happy whether in full time fox hunting work or trail riding. They only get a handfull of grain as a way of saying "thanks for walking into your stalls so I can check you over."

Thomas_1

Mar. 14, 2010, 09:13 PM

They only get a handfull of grain as a way of saying "thanks for walking into your stalls so I can check you over." :confused:

VERY odd!!!

Percheron X

Mar. 14, 2010, 11:17 PM

:confused:

VERY odd!!!

I'd prefer a ration balancer, but otherwise don't see the unusualness.....

What makes it odd?

Foxtrot's

Mar. 14, 2010, 11:31 PM

There are lots of reasons for ulcers, and often we acquire a horse with them, so it is not always poor management. . . .

COUPONS ?! - wish I knew how to get some - bit late now, but in case I need more GG how does one get them?

SLW

Mar. 14, 2010, 11:36 PM

:confused:

VERY odd!!!

They are plump, coats gleam, hooves are excellent and their eyes are bright, hardly candidates for quarts of grain. :)

tallygirl

Mar. 15, 2010, 02:15 AM

has anyone tried ulcergard paste vs ulcergard pellets? any difference? i want to try either one. :)

Thomas_1

Mar. 15, 2010, 04:37 AM

There are lots of reasons for ulcers, and often we acquire a horse with them, so it is not always poor management. . . .

Now I actually never mentioned "poor management" but fire away and I'll play, please do tell me what of the causes is NOT management related?

Thomas_1

Mar. 15, 2010, 04:39 AM

They are plump, coats gleam, hooves are excellent and their eyes are bright, hardly candidates for quarts of grain. :) I thought your reason for giving them it at all was VERY odd.

If they don't need it, then don't give it.

TheOrangeOne

Mar. 15, 2010, 10:13 AM

In my several years of owning an ulcery horse, the causing factors were more or less captivity. I don't THINK he has them now that he is on 24/7 turnout, only eats grass, has more or less no human interaction. However, refer to the no human interaction part, it would be hard to tell if he did. So, sure. Management related. He doesn't have ulcers if you don't ride him or touch him or ever bring him into a barn or take him to a show. Yep, totally my fault.

Also, a barn nearby had a scoping clinic and plenty of those field horses had ulcers and plenty who got 4 hours of turnout a day and went to shows all the time did not. I think most of our "reasons" why they get them are unreliable at best, and that for some horses it's just their natural state. They produce too much acid, and it hurts their stomach. Some of them don't seem to mind it much, they get used to how it feels, it becomes normal for them, and they are just fine. Some of them, it continues to bother them and makes them mean, makes them colic, whatever. At the end of the day, I think that you have a horse, you have to decide what you're going to do with them, and if what their job entails gives them ulcers, you manage that the best you can through medication, change what management is feasible, different feed, supplements, whatever.

Edit: I also just came back from looking at horses in holland, where several of the barns that I go to do not turn out at all, feed the nastiest hay I have ever seen in my life, high starch grain, and just go on about their business. I asked if they ever have dealt with stomach ulcers and met with a bunch of confused stares asking if horses could get those. I didn't really see a ton of horses that looked like they were bleeding so bad from their stomach it was about to come out of their eyeballs, which I would expect if I kept horses that way. Really, we do the best we can, and maybe at some point there will be a breakthrough that finds some factor that correlates better than what we have. Maybe there's some other bacteria horses have, similar to humans, although not the same one. Hell maybe most dogs can't eat chocolate and most horses shouldn't eat oats.

deltawave

Mar. 15, 2010, 10:45 AM

A handful of grain as a treat is no worse than any other treat. Hardly "quarts of grain".

Auventera Two

Mar. 15, 2010, 10:59 AM

I can't help feeling that rather than spending so much time, money and effort on diagnosing and treating ulcers that it would be a heck of a lot better to get a horse on a management regime where it didn't get them in the first place.

I agree, except that some horses are predisposed due to genetics and temperament. ;) Some horses probably develop more stomach acid than others, or the soft tissue is too lax, allowing acid to migrate where it shouldn't. Happens with humans ALL the time. The shape of the stomach, the natural thickness of the lining, or how the horse reacts to dewormers and supplements may all play a role in who develops ulcers and who does not. Fact is, nobody really knows.

All the free choice hay and turnout in the world doesn't keep a horse from being nervous or excitable and reactive while being worked. And that temperament is more likely to develop ulcers. Also, studies have shown that just the act of trotting and cantering for long periods of time forces gastric acid into the upper portion of the stomach, which is not as protected by mucosal lining. Add to that some of the high performance disciplines where horses receive electrolytes, and you have even more risk.

Also remember that some people (like myself) have to trailer out to ride because they take lessons at offsite locations with their horse, or they travel to various trails to ride. Those horses are more at risk than horses that are ridden every day at HOME without trailering out. Horses that compete are more at risk than backyard pleasure horses.

I tend to agree with Deltawave's opinion that many horses probably have ulcerations come and go that nobody knows about and that don't cause any noticeable problems. Perhaps that's because those horses are more stoic to pain and discomfort? Perhaps the lesions are so minor that the horse doesn't feel any discomfort? Studies have shown that broodmares who live on pasture 24/7 and do NOTHING even develop ulcers at times.

I also think that some people have horses with ulcers and they don't recognize it. I didn't until it escalated to the point the horse was very difficult to ride and keep weight on. If the horse pins their ears during saddling, they're just "cold backed." If the horse loses weight during competition season they're just a hard keeper. If the horse is spooky and hot under saddle, they're just young and need more miles. And sometimes, those things are definitely true. But sometimes I think it may be ulcers and no one recognizes it or gets it diagnosed. "Something" ends up changing in the horse's life or routine that prompts healing, and no one is ever the wiser.

Auventera Two

Mar. 15, 2010, 11:11 AM

Now I actually never mentioned "poor management" but fire away and I'll play, please do tell me what of the causes is NOT management related?

With my horse, her troubles started shortly after she was dewormed with Zimectrin Gold. Maybe had nothing to do with it - maybe it did. But she did develop a mouth ulcer from the paste, which made it somewhat suspect. I had even read that Merial was giving away free rounds of Gastrogard to horses dewormed with Zimectrin Gold that developed ulcers! :eek: I will never use that product again. Maybe it's fine, but I'm not taking a chance.

So sure, you could call that a "management issue" since the horse was dewormed and that "might" have had something to do with it. Might not have either. I don't know.

Another thing to consider is that many foals develop ulcers at weaning, especially if weaned too early. If not diagnosed or treated, the problem may never fully resolve and eventually you have a horse under saddle who is caught in a cycle of ulcers and pain that started at foalhood.

My horse came from an Arab barn where they pulled all the babies off the mares at 3 months, put them in an over-crowded paddock with a round bale and that's where they lived until sold. It was knee deep muck, inadequate shelter so the babies stand out regardless of weather. And WI isn't known for it's great weather.

So did her ulcers start there? Were they made worse by Zimectrin Gold? Further made worse by trailering offsite frequently for lessons, fun shows, and trail rides? Perpetuated by a hot, sensitive temperament? Did genetics have anything to do with it? Did electrolytes on hot days aggravate her belly? Possibly. Maybe not. Nobody knows.

What I do know is that giving Omeprazole about 2x per week keeps the horse very happy and doing beautifully under saddle. Skip a couple of weeks and she gets cranky. She eats 2 lbs. of soaked beet pulp a day, no grain, all the high quality hay (including alfalfa) that she can possibly eat, she's turned out on 10 acres with 2 friends. And she still needs some Omeprazole. Some horses are just like that.

Thomas_1

Mar. 15, 2010, 11:24 AM

AV2, Thanks for regurgitating some of what I've told you over the years. Your tales regarding your horses woes and stresses are well accounted.

Auventera Two

Mar. 15, 2010, 11:25 AM

Sorry for yet another post - but here's a quick word about turnout.

My horse happens to be one of these princesses that LOVES her stall. She would rather be in the barn than out. She'll stand in there alone, all day if you let her. We just had cold rain and wind for 4 days straight and she was in the barn the whole time. On the 4th day I trailered her an hour away to ride and she was a complete angel. Never spooked, not one minute's trouble from her. For "my" horse what stresses her out is being outside in bad weather, or outside overnight. If it's raining on her, she'll stress herself out trying to figure out how to get in the barn. Or if the bugs are bad, it's too hot, too cold, etc. Even with waterproof blankets - makes no difference. SHE WANTS HER STALL. And that's that. She loves to wallow around in a big fluffy pile of shavings. She'll lay down and sleep for hours. When I turn horses out every morning, I have to go in her stall, put my hand under her chin and actually lead her out the back door. If you leave her to her own devices, she'll turn her butt to the open door and keep eating hay.

So for her, I make sure she's in her stall 12 hrs. a day because she actually does MUCH better than when she's out 24/7. I had to learn that the hard way and at first, I thought 24/7 was better for her. I actually think that 24/7 turnout may have contributed to her problem. When she was diagnosed in '07 I made every effort to keep her out as much as possible but in looking back, that was probably the wrong thing to do. So we're back to that management issue I guess. You do what you think is right and you still get burned.

I believe we've come to a spot where I have everything ironed out for HER but what's right for her probably wouldn't work for another horse.

Auventera Two

Mar. 15, 2010, 11:27 AM

AV2, Thanks for regurgitating some of what I've told you over the years. Your tales regarding your horses woes and stresses are well accounted.

Don't flatter yourself Thomas. I assure you that you had NOTHING to do with my horse being diagnosed and subsequently treated for ulcers. :rolleyes:

Thomas_1

Mar. 15, 2010, 11:29 AM

^ Oh I absolutely know that. Never doubted it for one minute that you'd not pay attention to a single thing anyone suggested or said.

hitchinmygetalong

Mar. 15, 2010, 01:04 PM

Another thing to consider is that many foals develop ulcers at weaning, especially if weaned too early.

That's interesting. I'd like to know more. Can you point me to where I can read the study that concluded that? Thanks.

hollyhorse2000

Mar. 15, 2010, 03:15 PM

I've treated my horse for ulcers without scoping. Honestly, it's not just the cost issue. My horse paws and if she had to go 12 hours without hay I assume she'd paw a hole to China in her stall!!!!!!

To the poster asking about ulcergard pellets vs paste -- there is no pelleted Ulcergard. There is a pelleted U-Gard, but it is not the same thing at all.

To the poster suggesting Merial's patent was expiring soon -- can you provide details? I was under the impression it wasn't for yet another few years . . . unfortunately.

deltawave

Mar. 15, 2010, 03:56 PM

April 2015 was what I found.

SLW

Mar. 15, 2010, 04:50 PM

TheOranageone "that for some horses it's just their natural state. They produce too much acid, and it hurts their stomach" and Auventera Two "I agree, except that some horses are predisposed due to genetics and temperament"- well said and this is becoming my conclusion about my colt. There is a point where veterinary medicine has provided all it can and the art of horsemastership becomes extremely important with this sort of horse.

deltawave

Mar. 15, 2010, 04:56 PM

There is a point where . . . medicine has provided all it can

I certainly see your point, but man, I hope that isn't true. Just think if someone had said this 50 years ago. :eek: :)

msj

Mar. 15, 2010, 06:11 PM

I certainly see your point, but man, I hope that isn't true. Just think if someone had said this 50 years ago. :eek: :)

Ditto deltawave! :) I wonder if horsemen and horsewomen even considered horses getting ulcers 50 yrs ago. I've had horses for 48 yrs and I sure don't remember ever thinking about it or ever hearing anyone say anything back in those days. :sigh:

SLW

Mar. 15, 2010, 07:41 PM

I certainly see your point, but man, I hope that isn't true. Just think if someone had said this 50 years ago. :eek: :)

In this context I mean we can diagnosis, treat, heal the ulcer, make correct changes in management and dang, some of these ponies keep coming up with sour tummies. :cry:

Gosh, when I think back to the late 60's and early 70's when I started riding as a Pony Club kid, good saddle fit was having correct wither clearance on the pommel and no girth gall. :cool: A dental float was a hand rasp once a year or so, if someone was in your area...and I swear our horses didn't buck, fret or wring their tails in spite of all the serious (and goofy kid stuff) we did with them.

My basic horse keeping now isn't much different from way back then, or when we had a small stable in the early 80's where we boarded horses and taught lessons, full time turnout, good pasture, regular vaccinations and deworming. Saddle fit and dental care has waaaay improved and thank goodness tube deworming is a thing of the past, the dark ages! :D

Now if they can find another link beyond diet or stress for causing ulcers, that would be interesting. :cool:

deltawave

Mar. 15, 2010, 08:27 PM

some of these ponies keep coming up with sour tummies.

if they can find another link beyond diet or stress for causing ulcers, that would be interesting

So what you're saying is that we need more research. :D :D ;) ;)

It is interesting, however, to ponder how the seeming problem with horses as "hot house flowers" could be a modern invention vs. something we're simply noticing more. There was a thread about it a while ago. I wonder if perhaps our powers of observation are better now. And I wonder if this is good or bad, of course, too. :)

Woodland

Mar. 16, 2010, 12:54 AM

I can't help feeling that rather than spending so much time, money and effort on diagnosing and treating ulcers that it would be a heck of a lot better to get a horse on a management regime where it didn't get them in the first place.

Amen!

I use a powdered Aloe regimen on my DD's OTTB that had ulcers prior to our purchase of him. Uncomplicating his life has made him healthier and sounder than he has ever been.
[edit]

Auventera Two

Mar. 16, 2010, 10:56 AM

So what you're saying is that we need more research. :D :D ;) ;)

It is interesting, however, to ponder how the seeming problem with horses as "hot house flowers" could be a modern invention vs. something we're simply noticing more. There was a thread about it a while ago. I wonder if perhaps our powers of observation are better now. And I wonder if this is good or bad, of course, too. :)

I think as years go by, breeding becomes more selective, people get greedier and and want horses that step fancier, jump higher, slide farther, run faster, have skinnier necks, bigger butts, prettier faces.........100-150 years ago horses were mostly just utility. The ones that could stay sound while working the fields or pulling the family buggy to church were the ones that were kept and bred. Sure, there was some interest in racing and other "novelty" uses but it was FAR far less than today. The way we use horses today is totally different. Today they are pets, show horses, or used for selected performance.

After a while, breeds or certain lines within breeds become more linebred or selective bred to the point that good old fashion thriftiness and soundness in mind and body is often bred completely out.

So while it's intriguing to say "Well, cowboys in the 1800s didn't worry about saddles that fit, or ulcers, or arthritis...." it's not as practical with many of our modern day horses. Most modern performance horses bear no resemblance to the mongolian steppe ponies or the hardy mustang herds. The way we keep and feed them is completely different also.

I'd say the Arabian horse is pretty similar to their ancient ancestors. They stayed inside their masters' tents for protection. They were ridden hundreds of miles into battle with little food or water. But just like every other breed, in many cases we have bred them to be hotter, flightier, more exotic, and flashier in the halter ring. I believe those lines of Arabs may suffer more ailments than the good old fashioned working lines.

The difference in my mare and stallion is so remarkable even though they came from the same dam. He is the solid rock of Gibralter while she is the sensitive princess. Perhaps the difference is that she came from a twittified halter stallion and he came from a solid working line. I don't know, but the difference in them is quite notable. If more people would select for solid, sound brains and bodies, more lines would improve.

deltawave

Mar. 16, 2010, 11:09 AM

No arguments here. Except when making statements about a given breed, type, or species it's hard to use only a couple of individuals as proof of one thing or another. But in the deep, broad sense I do think that the passage of time has meant a lot of changes in horses and horse-keeping, some of which are obviously improvements, some of which are not. I daresay that aficionados of game birds, dogs, or even ornamental plants might have virtually identical conversations with the exception of a few details. :)

Mar. 16, 2010, 11:41 AM

It is interesting, however, to ponder how the seeming problem with horses as "hot house flowers" could be a modern invention vs. something we're simply noticing more. There was a thread about it a while ago. I wonder if perhaps our powers of observation are better now. And I wonder if this is good or bad, of course, too. :)

I suspect that 50 years ago, many horses would have simply died or been put down as a result of one colic episode -- long before they were labeled as having "sour tummies" or as hot house flowers. One and done, as it were. They survive now because veterinary care has come a long, long way, and we know more, which makes us better observers. And horses, like people, are living longer, which means you're likely to see more health problems in them.

*shrug* I'm not one to long for the "good old days" -- for horses or people. I wasn't fortunate enough to have horses as a kid, so I can't speak to that. But several of my grade school contemporaries died of ailments and conditions that, while still serious today, are completely treatable. I'll take the good that progress brings, along with the not so good, thank you.

With the good -- more knowledge and treatment options -- comes the need for balance. Use your head, figure out what's best for you and your horse. No need to obsess or pontificate about it.