Thoughts on Ekkehard Brysch’s Newsletter 04-04 edited with Article on page 6

[Cartier]

Thoughts on Ekkehard Brysch’s Newsletter 0404


Just received the Oldenburg North America 2005 Stallion Service Auction data which contains Mr. Brysch’s Newsletter 04-04. (should mention there are some excellent deals for breeders in that auction…

As always, Mr. Brysch’s editorial caught my eye. He writes of the need for a “marketing concept” in the US. “Marketing” references something much broader than just “selling.” Rather, marketing encompasses the entire breeding business as a whole, from the customer perspective. Brysch says that successful sales can only be achieved by identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer needs and desires.

I particularly note the need for accurate terminology to describe our horses, so that customers can rely on what we are advertising. For example, a horse advertised as “16.3 h and trained up to third level” should not in fact be 16.1h and barely going training level. People’s time is valuable and clients must be able to trust that the advertisement for the horse is accurate... otherwise the seller is wasting everyone’s time, including his own.

Another point Brysch mentions is the benefit to all breeders from having a reliable information network to share data about available horses -a data base referencing all our breed organizations. I think this is an excellent idea. Heck, we are often asked if we know of a horse with a specific level of training/ experience (in a particular price range) sometimes even of a particular breed or registry affiliation, and it is often difficult to come up with referrals.

[Cartier]

Thoughts on Ekkehard Brysch’s Newsletter 0404


Just received the Oldenburg North America 2005 Stallion Service Auction data which contains Mr. Brysch’s Newsletter 04-04. (should mention there are some excellent deals for breeders in that auction…

As always, Mr. Brysch’s editorial caught my eye. He writes of the need for a “marketing concept” in the US. “Marketing” references something much broader than just “selling.” Rather, marketing encompasses the entire breeding business as a whole, from the customer perspective. Brysch says that successful sales can only be achieved by identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer needs and desires.

I particularly note the need for accurate terminology to describe our horses, so that customers can rely on what we are advertising. For example, a horse advertised as “16.3 h and trained up to third level” should not in fact be 16.1h and barely going training level. People’s time is valuable and clients must be able to trust that the advertisement for the horse is accurate... otherwise the seller is wasting everyone’s time, including his own.

Another point Brysch mentions is the benefit to all breeders from having a reliable information network to share data about available horses -a data base referencing all our breed organizations. I think this is an excellent idea. Heck, we are often asked if we know of a horse with a specific level of training/ experience (in a particular price range) sometimes even of a particular breed or registry affiliation, and it is often difficult to come up with referrals.

[amble molly]

Guess Ekkehard's been browsing all the threads here addressing these issues... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Ashemont]

Sounds like Ekkehard has done a 180. He spearheaded the ISR/OLD NA buying trips to Germany many years ago... and heavily promoted German stallions. Glad he's now committing to supporting the American market rather than just going after American $$$. Marketing is his specialty so if he has some ideas I'm sure they'll be good ones. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

An organization with a good marketing plan and support for breeders would make it worthwhile for us to present Welt Marke for their approval!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by amble molly:
Guess Ekkehard's been browsing all the threads here addressing these issues... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFL. Toooo funny.

[lorik]

He had the same things to say during an educational session with Scott Hassler at the USDF convention. The two of them spoke about finding the missing link in our system and forming a marketing plan that works for us, not necessarily adopting the one that works for Europe. I've always found these two men to be very informative and articulate.

[talloaks]

Ashemont posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sounds like Ekkehard has done a 180. He spearheaded the ISR/OLD NA buying trips to Germany many years ago... and heavily promoted German stallions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't ever remember Ekkehard organizing "buying trips" to Germany~~~~~~~~what years are you refering to please? It seems to me that he has always promoted stallions standing in NA and buying horses here. I'm quite surprized at your comment. Please elaborate.

[Ashemont]

At our very first Keuring... hmmmm, back in '89? '90? And even before that when we were at the stallion licensing in Germany in the 80's Ekkehard was talking about organizing buying trips to Germany. And they ran them for a number of years.

Check your old ISR/OLD NA newsletters. The buying trips were advertised there. As a matter of fact, I believe there were even a number of threads on this BB from people who went on the trips. Don't you remember the stories of how shocked they were at the conditions at some of the farms?

At our very frist Keuring Ekkehard and Roland were both trying to get us to breed our imported State Premium mare to Donnerhall. And every year Ekkehard was at one of our Keurings he was pushing one German stallion or another.... sometimes several. And ALWAYS telling breeders about their annual buying trip... which later was referred to as an educational trip.

It was no secret so I don't understand why you are surprised by my comment, Bernie. I'm just very happy that he is putting his weight behind our American product now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[hluing]

Ironicly,one of the reasons I am leaning away from ISR lately is how they now discourage
use of german stallions and make you pay a huge addditional fee. Thier explanation: helping US stallion owners. I would prefer to help the breed as a whole...letting the breeder pick what they feel is the best stallion for the mare.

[talloaks]

Ashemont, I have been on a trip (1996) to Germany with Ekkehard and Karsten and they "were not buying trips in any way". I was one of the ones who has written about the shocking conditions for foals in Germany!! Before the split I know that Roland was pushing buying horses from Germnay and I think that was one of the problems with the registry. The ISR/OLDNA IS for the NA breeders. They are not lining their pockets with personal sales, and really promote keeping the breeding and buying and sales money in NA.

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Ironicly,one of the reasons I am leaning away from ISR lately is how they now discourage
use of german stallions and make you pay a huge addditional fee. Thier explanation: helping US stallion owners. I would prefer to help the breed as a whole...letting the breeder pick what they feel is the best stallion for the mare.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are one of the Oldenburg North America breeders who has had to pay extra to use the German tested and approved Stallions (e.g. superb quality stallions like Feinbrand, Lord Sinclair and Sandro Hit). Without question there are two sides to this issue.

I frankly don’t like paying an extra $300 (over and above other registry fees) to bring offspring of the great stallions mentioned above to the registry. I almost feel like they should be paying us to bring in these bloodlines.

But, if I look at this from the other perspective, Oldenburg North America is trying very hard to protect and promote American breeders and the products of American breeders. They can not please everyone at all times. And, though their policy costs me extra bucks, I respect that their priority is clearly supporting American Breeders, which in the long run is a "good thing.”

As for registry’s conducting sales tours… I agree with Pat that this kind of conduct is offensive. There is a line between educational tours, which inform American breeders, and blatantly pimping the products of other countries. And, I think that in 2004 Oldenburg North America is on the right side of that line.

[Ashemont]

Bernie,

Don't want to hijack this thread but please take off the rose-colored glasses. Roland made mistakes - lots of them - and he is paying the price. But some of the things Ekkehard did are equally reprehensible. So let's not point fingers.

I know from personal experience that Ekkehard HAS pushed German horses and German stallions in the past. He seems to now be promoting the North American horses and stallions and I see that as a big plus for American breeders. Ekkehard is to be congratulated for changing course and he gives me a reason to re-look at ISR/Old NA in a positive way.

[talloaks]

Pat,
This is the season of peace and joy so lets all celebrate the season!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ise@ssl]

Well Pat - your opinion is clear.

I went on one of the trips to Germany and they were NOT buying trips - in fact people wanting to buy horses had to make additional arrangements outside of our schedule and NOT affect our schedule to visit farms, Verbands and stallion shows. I know one person bought a horse at the Verden Auction but I believe that was a case of "auction fever".

Anyway - I was just in Germany for a week and actually I think the entire sporthorse sales world will be in need of some adjusting on both sides of the pond. Breeders here know what they have to do to pull together and market more efficiently and get their horses trained. Being the "underdog" I'm very confident we've got the backbone and energy to get the job done.

What will be interesting to see is if the other side of the pond gets into the concept of FLEXIBILITY in marketing and sales. With the $$/Euro at a 1/1.34 - well breeders in Europe had better get creative or flexible or BOTH - or they will have wall to wall horses in a year! Oh I'm sure there are people who have the financial ability to pay a 34% mark up dictated by the exchange rate and nothing else - but most buyers CANNOT.

The world market will put pressure on both sides to sharpen their pencils - I'm betting the U.S. breeders can be a bit sharper at this game because we are used to it in all phases of our lives.

BTW - Merry Christmas everyone - had a nice early Christmas gift - sold two horses this month!!

[Ashemont]

I hardly think posting a firsthand conversation is an 'opinion' but as long as what I'm saying is clear I'll settle for that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I, too, think we can really do a better marketing job but we need to pull together... and that's something that sadly just hasn't happened in the horse world. But I think we're beginning to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

The regional groups springing up around the country are a great step in the right direction. The lead ISR/OLD NA is taking by charging a premium for breeding to non-NA stallions is another positive step for our market. It will be interesting to see if other associations follow suit.

I don't think the RPSI can do anything in this regard because of their structure - being ONE registry rather than having the US portion as an offshoot or sister registry. However there should be nothing stoppping the other NA arms of the German registries from doing their part to promote NA horses/stallions.

Any other ideas for boosting the NA market besides a surcharge for non-NA stallions? And what's with the fees for these breeders groups? Our NCWB has been operating successfully for over a year without any dues; we just split the actual costs amongst the membership.

[Kyzteke]

Well, it certainly makes sense that someone was "pushing" buying German stallion 15 years ago. I mean, how many American stallions were there at that time?

But times have changed...so it seems OldNA has changed with them.

[ise@ssl]

The ISR/OLDNA does not charge a "premium" for using frozen semen from Europe - it charges the same fee a Stallion owner has to pay here to activate their stallion. That's parody IMHO. The agents who make the "middle man" money on the frozen could pay to have certain stallions inspected and approved - then there wouldn't be an individual fee for the mare owners to pay.

[talloaks]

ILona, the foreign stallion fee is paid for EACH breeding by that stallion. I paid $600 to breed 2 mares to Sandro Hit. Are you saying all the stallion owners pay to activate their stallions for a year is $300????

[Laurie@CBF]

----------------------------------------------
"The lead ISR/OLD NA is taking by charging a premium for breeding to non-NA stallions is another positive step for our market. It will be interesting to see if other associations follow suit."
------------------------------------------------

No Pat - this just sends people like me to other registries. In 2005 I have foals that will be registered with the AHS, AHHA, and SWANA.

Ilona - that exorbitant fee is due PER foal BEFORE it even hits the ground (December). No other registry charges fees that high and on that "schedule".

BTW - the costs of having a stallion inspected is much more than three hundred dollars. When a stallion has only one registered foal (in the Old/NA reg) it doesn't make sense to have those stallions inspected (unless I just wanted to give the ISR more money http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif).

[ise@ssl]

Oh come on Laurie - let's be fair here - the ISR/OLDNA is a U.S. registry and pardon me - but it's my opinion - we should SUPPORT THE PEOPLE MEMBERS who have stallions approved HERE! I think we would all find this a different kettle of fish if we'd paid the dough to either breed or buy a stallion, have them approved, tested, etc. etc. I think you all should lean on these "middle men" who make a nice living off of bringing in frozen semen. Yes it's nice to have the bloodlines from Europe through frozen but THOSE stallion owners should consider picking up some of the expense for all of you mare owners who use the frozen semen.

People who breed have CHOICES - isn't that great? They can choose registries, mares, stallions, etc. etc. Can't people just support their choices without BASHING those they don't choose. I'm sure we could all find something we really don't like about just about every registry out there.

This is one of those rather petty little points that drives a wedge into OUR breeding community here and makes the exporters in Europe smile like Cheshire cats! You keep saying the frozen is from the ELITE of the stallion community in Europe. Well looking at the cost of the straws and the cost the ISR/OLDNA charges per breeding - that's still WAY BELOW THE AVERAGE for the stallions HERE!....WITH FRESH!!! And those stallions may or may not be the Elite here or there! Comparing apples and oranges only makes fruit salad!!

[Ashemont]

So it would seem an agent who wanted a marketing edge would pay to have the stallions they represent approved. This would end up being much cheaper than having each individual mare owner pay $300 and even if the cost of straws through said agency were a bit higher, they could justify it. I think a good agent could really come out ahead on this and still save mare owners money.

And yes, Ilona, those of us who have struggled to make top quality stallions available in the US really DO appreciate the steps the ISR/OLDNA have taken to support us. As I said, it's got me re-thinking presenting Marker to them for approval once he completes his performance requirements http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ise@ssl]

We need to always stop pulling each other apart and then turning our rosy eyes to Europe and admiring how they all STICK together.

Come on - look at the farms that own stallions here - many of them are the ones sponsoring classes at shows or putting money into the futurities, championships. We seem to have a derth of foals by certain stallions by frozen semen - does the owner of Olympic Ferro sponsor even one class here? This person should take full page ads in our breeding guides and magazines to THANK the mare owners who probably have doubled their income from this stallion's breeding program!! Though it will be interesting to see in a decade if the success is there from the frozen or will we just end up with a lot of offspring from the stallions that happen to have good frozen!!! After all there's a mare involved in everyone of these transactions!

Maybe some of the frozen semen "hucksters" should have a big cash award for the top scoring foals by frozen semen at the big breed shows. Hey if those of us who worked on the BORN IN THE USA could pull together big dough - why not the frozen semen merchants?? They could call it THAWED IN THE USA!! tee hee

[talloaks]

Ilona, some of us have purchased the frozen semen directly from the stallion owner in Germany and did not use a middle man. My best producing broodmare was by a stallion owned by this person when he was here in Virginia and had various stallions at stud. Therefore, in breeding to another of his stallions, to the daughter of the original mare, we are quite anxious to see the results. We have supported many stallions in the US with great results, but there shouldn't be any reason why we can't try someone else. The OLDNA was fine with our choice. What a wonderful organization that lets us try different bloodlines. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Ashemont]

OMG Ilona... we're actually AGREEING on something! And I really chuckled at your THAWED IN THE USA comment http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Barb Gualco]

I read the piece and believe he was pretty much on the mark...we have addressed some of the very topics by plan at Silverhorne...of course I was mentored by Germans so we discussed these points many times throughtout the 90s...politics and policy aside the notion that a "network" does not exist is inaccurate...indeed one does exist and if cultivated one can overcome the bi-coastal issues we all deal with...some very brave comments have been made on this thread and that, I believe, is healthy...applause here.

[talloaks]

What are the requirements for a foal to be considered eligible to participate in BORN IN THE USA ???? I realize it would have to be foaled in the USA, but does it have to be bred to a stallion standing in the US? Only fresh semen? Frozen semen okay from stallions standing in the US? What about frosen semen from stallions outside the US? If the mares are inseminated in the US? What about mares bred outside the country and yet foal in the US???
Unfortunately I have never looked into this program before and therefore have to plead my ignorance as to what is eligible. Hope ILona or someone can answer the above questions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[TQ]

Kudos for many of the programs in the ISR/Oldenburg NA. BORN IN THE USA is a great program and I hope it will grow to include Hunters and Jumpers and be held at shows all over the country. To the best of my knowledge, ISR/Old NA is the only registry that supported it with significant money. I hope we can all support the ISR/Old NA and their efforts to support American Breeders.

[Cartier]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Thawed in the USA </span> http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Thanks to Arthur’s patients, I now have the cold to end all colds… can’t breath, my throat is sore.. I need my mommy (and thanks for the lemons Belskie http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif ). So I’m laying here with my cup of Theraflu and a head full of snot when Arthur read me Ilona’s “Thawed in the USA" comment. Very funny! Reminds me of the Bruce Springsteen song, “Born down in a dead man’s town, the first kick I took was when I hit the ground…”

AS for the "middle man" money the frozen semen "hucksters" are raking in, sorry, I don’t see it. I really don’t think frozen semen dealers are getting rich selling semen. There are too many fixed costs with importing semen. And I just don’t think they’re getting huge volume discounts. When we purchased directly, our order was one of the largest single chunks of Sandro Hit from Schockemöhle and we didn’t get a discount on the straws. We paid the listed price (and had the advantage that all of our partners were using the same vet, so the tank, once it cleared customs only had to make one stop). My understanding is that the shipping and customs costs are fixed. So, I just don’t see a huge profit, especially when a dealer has made the investment of time and energy dealing with the needs of individual customers here in this country. When all costs are factored in, I just don’t see huge profits... and there are so many easier ways to make money... like working in a 7-11.

It’s pouring rain here this morning and Arthur is waiting for a break before he goes out to feed... he’s sitting behind me at the moment, verbalizing this fabulous new plan:

American breeders should have Annual Stallion Presentations in this country...so that breeders (and the public) can see an array of our stallions, especially those stallions who are no longer in competition. He’s thinking of a annual festival type of atmosphere… at various venues (like the Prince Georges Equestrian Center in Maryland), in January. (The thought being that January is a time of year when breeders are done with foals and still in the decision making mode.) Kind of like the Timonium thing, but just for Sporthorses.

The Stallion Festival could be modeled after German events of this kind… great atmosphere, refreshments… a chance to meet and greet… and schmooze with each other and the public at large…. and see a selection of lovely stallions. One advantage to a festival is that so many of our stallions are not out in competition. People never see more than one photo advertised repeatedly over the years. A festival would get these guys out and ultimately help to market their foals… breeders could actually see these stallions out in public, even if it was only in hand.

[talloaks]

Cartier!! get well soon!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Do love your idea of a Stallion Festival!!! You are so correct about the public never seeing our wonderful stallions. If Devon is the biggest and the best, it is very disappointing in the mature stallion class, not many entries!!! Of course in Germany they do bring out all the champion stallions for display and it is sooo exciting to see them. Great idea!! Great marketing ploy!! Hope it can become an annual event in the USA!!

[carosello]

Talloaks... the Born in the USA requirements are this
"Eligibility Open to horses and ponies of any breed who are
conceived and foaled in the USA."

TQ Born in the USA was not conceived by the ISR/OLDNA. It was born from the Dressage at Devon committee spearheaded by our own LoriK from this board.

The list of sponsors are as follows

2004 Sponsors

Platinum
Dressage at Devon
Summit Sporthorses LTD
Yancey Farms
Annie B Farm
Midwest Breeders Group
Tranquility Farm
Home Again Farm - Mary Lou Winn
Wildest Expectations Farm
Oldenburg Breeders Society; North American Div. of Verband der
Zuchter des Oldenburger Pferdes e.V
Haralson Farm
Greengate Farm/Rachel Ehrlich
Lisa Hornsby Daws
Willow Spring Farm
Los Alamos Dressage Center L.L.C.
JP Farm, Dutch Warmbloods Marshall, IL
Oakleigh Sport Horses - Dr. Pat Sullivan

Gold
American Hanoverian Society
Marydell Farm
Change Twice Shy Farm to a Gold

Silver
GayLee Stables/GayLee Gauron Robinson
Carol Young
Chesapeake Equestrian Events
Twice Shy Farm
Watermark Farm
Talewins, Inc


Bronze
American Warmblood Society
North American Thoroughbred Society
Maridee Hanoverians
Windy Ridge Farm

Many of the posters in this thread have come forward to support this and hopefully more areas of the country will have something similar in the future.

(Please note the Oldenburg Horse breeders society (GOV) is not the ISR/Old Na)

Wanted to also add that Yancey Farm imports frozen semen and is also a supporter of Born in the USA. I guess they had already done what was suggested earlier.

[paintedsportponies]

Why go to the frozen North in January when you can come to sunny Florida where many of your customers are for the season?

I am putting together a similar type event for next year that was going to feature sport ponies stallions and have a private treaty sale on riding ponies as well (most would be ponies suitable for the hunters since that is the biggest demand)

I am in Ocala, home of HITS but this could also be done in Wellington or in Tampa with the WEF crowd.

With the right timing, promotion and benefits provided they will come.

[Cartier]

Cathy,
It sounds like a great idea to play around with, and lord knows you have the people and the talent down there to put something together... even if it started small and built over the years.

[Ashemont]

Hey folks the NCDCTA did something like this years ago. For several years when the CDI in Raleigh was in the fall (yes, it used to be in the fall instead of in May) they gave all of the stallions at the show 2 minutes of time during the evening extravaganza and exhibitors' party. Each stallion could be presnted in-hand or u/s while nice music played and the announcer read whatever material the SO provided.

Although this was only open to stallions who were actually competing in the show there is no reason why this could not be opened up to include non-competing stallions.... maybe for fee? Most of the stallions being presented had also donated a breeding to the silent auction (we supported the show in this way for a number of years) and it was initially set up to give everyone a chance to see those stallions. But it was a nice source of 'free' entertainment and it was well-received so in succeeding years it was opened up to all stallions at the show.

Pikor was just a youngster at the time and so we were thrilled to have the opportunity to get him into the main arena with all of the lights and sounds and excitement while not actually having to ride a test. It was very well-received but I don't think it's done anymore. Hmmmmm.... maybe I need to talk to somone about reactivating it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ise@ssl]

I do wish more people would "showcase" their stallions at the breed shows. The Stallion classes are where many mare owners look for potential sires - especially the under-saddle class. Even at DAD - it seems like we should be seeing an increase in entries with all the new stallions in this country but it just isn't happening - anyone have an opinion about why we don't see our stallion classes with huge #'s of entries?

[Laurie@CBF]

Because even with the best job that everyone at DAD does - it is not a safe place for stallions - IMO. Tiny stalls with a board every six inches - that flood http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif. Very cramped warmup areas that are a nightmare when a young horse gets loose - let alone a stallion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif.

Two years ago a young stallion broke out of his stall and created major havoc (in my barn) for about twenty minutes until he got captured. Mulitple stalls were kicked in/damaged by this horse while he was cruising around. Luckily all of the horses that were in those stalls escaped major injury.

If there was decent parking people could ship their stallions in for the day and work out of their rigs - not an option.

The stallion classes at DAD get smaller every year - and I don't blame the people for not wanting to risk the health and well being of their stallions.

[Ashemont]

You are absolutely right Laurie. I'm a NJ girl and grew up with Devon being 'THE' show. I know all the tradition and while I love it the facility is just plain dangerous. We had a very bad experience when we took Pikor there.

The first stall they assigned us didn't even have a door on it. Then they gave us a stall that had so many nails in it that my rider and I spent over an hour pulling them out. The aisleway was so narrow that Pikor and DaVinci could nuzzle each other! We had to rush out and buy a stall guard to keep them apart.

Crowded conditions and stallions with mares and babies? Just too unsafe. They really need a better venue for the biggest breed show in the US.

I also think a location with an indoor - let's face it, no one want to stand out in the rain to watch - and good parking so that you could just trailer in for the day would certainly make it more attractive.

Devon was wonderful but I think the time has come to put the safety of the horses and convenience of the exhibitors over tradition. A nice new facility with a good indoor, great parking, and easy access for a large truck and trailer would certianly be far more attractive to us.

[talloaks]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Talloaks... the Born in the USA requirements are this
"Eligibility Open to horses and ponies of any breed who are
conceived and foaled in the USA." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Carosello, that is exactly what I wanted to know. My horses are all eligible!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[talloaks]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I also think a location with an indoor - let's face it, no one want to stand out in the rain to watch - and good parking so that you could just trailer in for the day would certainly make it more attractive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about Lexington Virginia?????????? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Sporthorse South]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carosello:
Born in the USA was not conceived by the ISR/OLDNA. It was born from the Dressage at Devon committee spearheaded by our own LoriK from this board.

The list of sponsors are as follows ...

Platinum...
Oldenburg Breeders Society; North American Div. of Verband der Zuchter des Oldenburger Pferdes (GOV) ...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I will also add that GOV was able to support this program in large part because of funds raised through - gasp - its stallion service auction. So kudos to all the participating stallion and mare owners. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sporthorse South]

Regarding "stallion exhibitions", the Good Horseman shows in Georgia used to do this during the competitors' party at their dressage shows. Support from area stallion owners was not overwhelming, nor was there much interest in the proceedings from the party-goers (the great majority of whom were riders/trainers, and not very fascinated by who the local stallions were).

[talloaks]

In Germany the stallion exhibitions are held in conjunction with the stallion testings so they already have a very interested crowd. Guess the size of the US prohibits this type of thing. Perhaps we have to use the latest technology and have stallion videos done annually with a lot of the stallions and send them out. Even if these were done by breed, or by the area of the country, well another idea of marketing!! Just a thought!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[paintedsportponies]

I assume most of you who stand stallions either own or have access to thier sons and daughters who are for sale.

The smart thing to do would be to create a desire (opportunity to see and observe performing in dressage or over fences) young prospects of said stallions.

Additionally, the buyers (those who compete on circuit) would be able to see and observe the stallions themselves who sired the prospects. I would think a private treaty sale would work best as opposed to sport horse auction.

I am currently working on such an event for next year for sport ponies in Florida (and elsewhere if they wish to travel). If there were enough interest from stallion owners of sport horses they could be included as well.

An enterprising gal has been doing s similar type of thing for stallion owners for a few years as an expo and getting sponsors to cover a great deal of the cost of her event. She showcases 70 stallions and they have to perform something... under saddle, in hand, driving or even just tricks. One performance that brought down the house was one stallion owner who rode her stallion in the arena and several riders rode some of his sons and daughters and the finale was when they turned the yearlings and weanlings loose in the arena to delight the crowd with their antics. I understand she got lots of bookings through her clever presentation. All thes stallions get their moment to shine in the spotlight with an audience of thousands. The owners get a chance to display their creativity in presenting their stallion with music doing whatever he does best. Most of the stallions at the Expo were quarter horses and paints and many owners reported they were happy with the return on their investment with bookings.

I think with the right type of upscale event a sport horse/pony showcase could attract a large audience of potential consumers and create a buzz nationally. It needs to be scheduled where a large amount of the consumers are grouped together already so travel isn't an issue. It could even be an event in both Ocala and Wellington with double dates.

The stallions are available at that time of year and Florida is sure fun at the end of January and the trip could be written off and hopefully paid for by bookings received through the promotion...

[ltw]

I agree that a stallion festival is needed in the USA. Maybe it could be separated into regions. Safe stabling is paramount. A facility like the Va. Horse Center could provide that venue with very high cement stallwalls and solid screen doors. But my concern is alot of stallion owners will not bring their stallions. Maybe if it was turned into a competition with a generous amount of prize money it might work, as well as some advertising/promotion for the stallion owners.

[Kareen]

Quote from Ashemont:

'At our very frist Keuring Ekkehard and Roland were both trying to get us to breed our imported State Premium mare to Donnerhall. And every year Ekkehard was at one of our Keurings he was pushing one German stallion or another....'


Hmm, so you had the right to shop overseas and import a mare. How come you take issue with other US-horse owners and breeders who are doing the very same thing?
Quite frankly it would help the US-bred WB as a whole tons if even more quality mares came into the country so why are you so hostile about others doing what you did yourself not so long ago. I mean 15 years isn't exactly long in horse-breeding terms so what's so wrong about importing quality breeding stock to support the population. Shouldn't the single breeder be free in their decision which stallion to use or which mare to buy for their operation? Those who decided to stick with a branch of some European based registry certainly have a different approach than those who are trying to get together what they call the American Warmblood, American Sporthorse or whatsoever. Why follow the strict guidelines of one registry if in exchange the concept is countered by a strictly national approach thinking along the roads of 'buy American'? AHS members e.g. are making huge efforts and paying significant fees in order to be a part of the Hanoverian breeding program and nothing else. They most certainly must have the right to chose among all Hanoverian approved stallions available not just the ones that are casually residing in the US. Likewise it must be up to each single breeder if and where they go to buy additional mares, foals or whatever else they think is necessary for their program. You have every right to stand behind your product but people can't be forced into buying it. You either do or do not follow the rules of supply and demand. If you don't then you can try to protect your product but if you do then the rules have to be the same for everyone.
Pls explain.

[ise@ssl]

Not understanding the tone of your post Kareen - but your notation of "supply and demand" - will IMHO affect you folks in Europe more than us here. We can go to Europe and buy mares if we want to - no law says we can't. What I keep seeing in Europe is NO reduction in breeding and a rather precarious PRESUMPTION that the US will keep buying from Europe at levels equal to or greater than we did in the past. Not so sure we will need to do that but find the European breeders are extremely inflexible or pragmatic about understanding the shift in buying patterns or need to be more creative in their marketing.

Breeders in the US are much more educated that before and I'm not sure where you get the 15 year number - warmbloods have been bred here for much longer than that. And it's just not going to take the US as long to develope their breeding programs when most of the bloodlines, problems, etc. have been documented in Europe - we don't have to re-invent the wheel. We aren't as dumb as some Europeans think we are when it comes to learning pedigree,conformation, performance predictability, etc. But it actually may work to our advantage if Europeans continue to believe that.

Will be interesting to watch the sales if the $$/Euro stays at or near to the ratio it is now. Paying a 30-34% markup for a horse just based on exchange rates WILL affect sales from Europe to the U.S.

And please stop with the "those who are trying to get together what they call the...." - it sounds so condescending. I'm not sure if you've been to the U.S. - we have some very impressive warmbloods here - believe it or not!!

[Majestic Gaits]

This is a super thread. I didn't see Brysch's article, but sounds wonderful. We do need to promote our American bred horses. The Europeans do it. But, we need imports just as well too to continually evolve to a better breeding here. The Europeans do that too. We don't want to be a limited registry in Warmbloods. We do have some great bloodlines and breeding going on here and we should all buy here first.

I do distribute frozen semen from Holland for the owners. And I stand my own stallion. I don't make big bucks on either and often it is a loss. Standing stallions or importing frozen semen is an expensive deal. Maybe if I doubled the price instead of working as a direct distributer, but I think the breeders (and I am a breeder too) need to get the prices down as much as possible so we can market our foals too.

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com (http://www.majesticgaits.com)

[Kyzteke]

Stallion Festivals are a great idea -- but if you live in a isolated region like I do it makes it tough.

And I suspect the reason that more mature stallions don't enter breed shows (DAD or otherwise) is because: someone is going to win, and someone is going to LOSE. That is the nature of a show. That will NOT promote sales http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[lorik]

Kyzteke,
I think you have something there. Besides the fact that DAD is cramped and rickety, there is the fact that many don't want to risk NOT winning the class.
As far as stallion exhibitions are concerned, I should think you need not only safe stabling and an indoor, but you need to be near a major metropolitan area. I love the VA horse park. It's as safe a facility as they come. It's only problem is that it's out in the boonies. It's pretty hard to get a gate there.
As someone else said, it's not the stallion who is at issue here. It's the get of that stallion. You can have the most beautiful and correct stallion, but if he doesn't throw a foal that is ridable, what's the point?

[Cartier]

I agree that a Stallion Festival has advantages over a win/loose competition. If properly done, a Stallion Festival (which could be expanded to include breeding farms that simply want to present a selection of what they breed), could generate a congenial atmosphere... where breeders and the public at large could peruse the best of what’s available in this country (without the ultimate value judgment that one is superior to another).

I think one goal should be to keep costs to a bare minimum, yet still have a facility with good equine facilities and nice accommodations for the public. Lexington is very nice, but might be a bit off the beaten path. The Prince Georges Equestrian Center is centrally located to Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia (the geographic center of most WB breeding on the East Coast) and could be an ideal venue.

We’ve been re-thinking the dates, and factoring in the weather in the Virginia - Maryland area… Our previous thinking about January was that the event would draw members of the public who are feeling a bit stir-crazy with nothing to do … by January the holidays are over, people are getting sick of being cooped up inside and breeders have time before the breeding /competition season starts. But we got to thinking about the weather in January, it can be treacherous… so possibly something like mid to late October would work better.

[Laurie@CBF]

Until we get solid young horse classes, futurities, and championships going any stallion exhibition will fall on deaf ears - IMO. The offspring must prove themselves in competition - THEN people will start looking for more of the same.

The demand needs to be created. As it is now the tail is wagging the dog.

I will be interested to hear what the "missing link" EB will find in our marketing plans. I have already learned to try to breed the best to the best while working as hard as possible to keep the expenses to a minumum. Having some offspring competing well in sport is also key to "creating a demand". Opportunites to showcase the young talent are getting off the ground. The future is interesting.

[Kareen]

To Ilona:
Ashemont said: 'At our very first Keuring '89/'90'. That's 15 years isn't it? And that's what I was referring to. I am well aware of how and when WB breeding in the US began http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And I am not against it if you think that's what my motivation is. If I was I would probably not spend hours to answer US-breeders stallion questions in emails and I would probably not participate in US-based WB bulletin boards http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I just don't understand your hostility against us European breeders as if we were trying to steal from your plate. It's not like European breeders are flying horses to the States by the truckload and flooding your market. It's your people (yourself included that's what I find so interesting about it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) who are coming *here*...
And if I hadn't been to the US I would probably not make any statements about what's going on there either http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One reason why the number of breedings has not dramatically changed because of the current weakness of the USD is because the US is not our only market. The other reason is because Europeans generally have a non-profit approach to breeding and are willing to accept it as a kind of traditional gamble which may appear strange to Americans but tremendously affects how the market works here.

I think Majestic Gaits' approach is a good one: She has a concept, she is aware of what's going on on both sides of the pond, she is drawing the right conclusions AND (which I have seldom seen in any whining posts) she is aware of the strengths the American mentality offers (flexibility, understanding of economics, ability to detect and develop know-how) and trying to utilize them rather than wasting energy to deny the equally existing weaknesses (expectation to achieve fast success, widespread barn-blindness on breeders' side, expectation to make a profit or at least break even on each and any horse).

I do not think going shopping in Europe yourself (ponies - aren't there any pony breeders in the US?) and at the same time telling others that shopping in Europe is no good is anyhow constructive. All I can see is that it means drinking wine and preaching water http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

What I take issue with is how you try to establish a frontline between European and US breeders. As a hanoverian breeder I appreciate our US counterparts as colleagues. It's only natural that a population the size of the AHS-marebase needs a constant flow of foreign blood and there is a big enough cake for all breeders around the globe.
Your assumption the European registries 'are only after the $$$' is simply false. Why do you think the Verband holds breeding seminars and goes on inspection tour every year? For the very same reason they do the same for us German breeders. It's a non-profit organization. I am not and as long as people are willing to pay me I will help them to find what they are looking for. If this interfers with your way of thinking I am very sorry but I beg your pardon but your logic of 'If the USD didn't suck I'd love to import a pony but anyone else please buy American, the Europeans are no good' simply doesn't do it for me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[ise@ssl]

Kareen - you seem to feel you know so much about individual breeders here - that's a big assumption. I don't care if people go to Europe to buy whatever - I just get sick and tired of people in Europe and here making statements that denigrate our breeding business and the overwhelming progress they've made in a very short period of time in comparison to Europe. Don't put words in my mouth - you seem to do that all the time. I also don't understand the drinking wine and preaching water comment.

It's tiring to hear the same anonymous people preaching about how easy it is to find a horse in Europe. But these very same people would NEVER EVER EVER buy a horse in the same way here that they do in Europe and that specifically includes the VETTING PROCESS. Horses sold here have to be PERFECT!! We see the imports (there's a lot in our area) and some of them would NEVER EVER EVER pass a Vet exam here - in fact just looking at them the Vet here would probably say - forget it! It's the double standard that frustrates breeders here!

I looked at ponies because we have limited REITERPONY bloodlines in the U.S. I have excellent Welsh lines in my ponies and have done very well with the few Reiterponies standing here but we do need more lines.

It's nice Europe can take a NON-PROFIT approach to breeding but looking specifically at all economic indicators for Germany (all of which are negative) it's hard to believe that can continue forever. Here in the U.S. it just isn't something we can do. The U.S. requires that businesses turn a profit for a certain number of years or they are deemed a "hobby".

Regarding this quote
"I think Majestic Gaits' approach is a good one: She has a concept, she is aware of what's going on on both sides of the pond, she is drawing the right conclusions AND (which I have seldom seen in any whining posts) she is aware of the strengths the American mentality offers (flexibility, understanding of economics, ability to detect and develop know-how) and trying to utilize them rather than wasting energy to deny the equally existing weaknesses (expectation to achieve fast success, widespread barn-blindness on breeders' side, expectation to make a profit or at least break even on each and any horse)."

I don't know the details of this person's breeding business but I think you presume that the rest of us don't know what we are doing. I've been at this for 17 years and have a background in finance and economics. Some of your other comments I just don't understand ...perhaps it's a translation issue. But PLEASE KAREEN - stop with the comment "widespread barn blindness on breeders's side" comments. I've been to and seen more U.S. breeders farms and horses than you have and that's just a rude and very incorrect statement. It also gives the impression that everything bred in Europe is "top shelf" - well I've been there - that's not true either! It's just tiring to have people from Europe constantly look down their nose at us here - as though saying "there there - nice try - maybe someday you will figure out how to breed some good horses like we do all the time"!!! Phooey!

And the Warmblood business in the U.S. is NOT the largest horse business and probably never will be - but Europe doesn't seem to understand that either. But I do find it interesting that for years the Europeans laughed and joked about the "Hunter" market here in the U.S. But now they've "seen the money" and are actively trying to market horses to that discipline. Though they should remember some people do still hear the jokes being made!

It's a world market and people can buy what they want - where they want for whatever price. But I'm just wondering why the people buying and selling the "imported" horses have to more often than not make some snide remark to denigrate the U.S. bred horses in the process.

[hluing]

Ise@ssl
Could you share some sbout the Reitponies you looked at in Germany? I too would love to import because there are so few here. I would love to hear about your experinces either through this forum or PT.
Thanks
Heather

[ise@ssl]

Heather - email me at ilonaenglish@earthlink.net. I'll tell you what I looked at and ranges of pricing, etc. The exchange rate is the real deal killer though. Hard to justify that much of a mark up!! It affects the price, taxes, and shipping as well! Kills the margin.

[pwynnnorman]

"I think with the right type of upscale event a sport horse/pony showcase could attract a large audience of potential consumers and create a buzz nationally."

While I really applaud your idea, paintedsportponies, it also reminded me of what was written in the original post:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Rather, marketing encompasses the entire breeding business as a whole, from the customer perspective. Brysch says that successful sales can only be achieved by identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer needs and desires. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whenever these threads crop up, I ultimately find myself frustrated by how they perpetually (and, I realize, wholely subconsciously) dodge the issue. THIS (Mr. B's quote) is the issue--and only if the events you and others propose DO SOMETHING TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE, other than by just "existing," will any progress be made.

An event without a message is just another shot in the dark.

What, people, is the "key message" behind your marketing efforts? I've taken to going my own way instead of following the traditional sportpony crowd because, for me, a "sportpony" is a pony that can be competitive against horses--and I have never gotten as simple, understandable and reproducible a "key message" from anyone else producing sportponies.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with my definition, but I am using it to illustrate why, if you can't quickly and simply identify to ANYONE--newbie or not--what EXACTLY you are selling, you're doomed because you have no foundation on which to build your marketing efforts or distinguish your product from others...or enable YOUR product to compete with ALTERNATIVE products (and that's the real problem).

Soooooo, paintedsportponies, "buzz" about WHAT?

[Kareen]

Ilona I don't know which words I have put into your mouth but I most certainly have never displayed an 'attitude' towards US WB breeders. I do have a lot of respect for the improvements the industry has made in comparably short time.
Barnblindness is nothing that is limited to the US (where did I say it was??) but as a matter of fact women with no professional career seem to be more prone to it than farmers who are used to evaluating their livestock for generations and as another matter of fact the average US WB breeder is exactly that.
Don't think our tax people are more tolerant about declaring hobby status. I can assure you they are not.

Furthermore where did I say Europe had only top-shelf horses? Where??? It's only you trying to paint a black and white picture here that I find in no way constructive for anybody.

It's all nice and well that you have seen more US based barns than I have. I would sure hope so as it would be very sad if you didn't know the horseworld in your own country.

I also nowhere said Majestic Gaits was the only person in the US with a clue. Only because I think her concept makes sense does that mean anyone else doesn't have a concept? Again who is putting whom words into the mouth? If you think you must have a kind of breeding war Europe vs. US please have it but have it without me. I don't make a difference whether a breeder is in the US or Europe. There are good ones and bad ones on both sides and I tend to believe I spend more time talking to US breeders than you do talking to German breeders so I don't know why you are questioning my 'qualification'. I don't claim to know it all I merely express my opinion which is what BB's are for afterall. It's you who is currently displaying an attitude here and I don't find it very positive.

My bottom line is I don't understand why you are angry about people buying overseas and on the other hand you say you don't care. If you don't care then why are we having this discussion?

[ise@ssl]

As I stated Kareen - I have no "anger" toward people who buy overseas - most of what we see coming over - people overpaid!! What makes me angry is many people who DO - have to bad mouth U.S. breeders to validate their foreign purchase. Who cares!

Not sure abou this "women with no professional Career" being the "average" U.S. WB breeder remark???!!! Based on what? And most of the livestock farmers in the U.S. raise and can identify great beefstock but not horses!

[Cartier]

Just some observations… (and I don’t mean to be defending Ilona, because she is more than capable of doing so on her own), Kareen, you do seem to have an attitude (possibly owing to subtleties in translation), which does come across as condescending. Some of your sweeping proclamations are at times offensive. For example, I am not clear as to your meaning in this statement <span class="ev_code_RED">“Barnblindness is nothing that is limited to the US (where did I say it was??) but as a matter of fact women with no professional career seem to be more prone to it than farmers who are used to evaluating their livestock for generations and as another matter of fact the average US WB breeder is exactly that.” </span> But one possible inference (which Ilona seems to have picked up on) is both inaccurate and misleading.

Might just be my perspective, but this debate is going round and round the bowl…

[Mardi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
I do wish more people would "showcase" their stallions at the breed shows. The Stallion classes are where many mare owners look for potential sires - especially the under-saddle class. Even at DAD - it seems like we should be seeing an increase in entries with all the new stallions in this country but it just isn't happening - anyone have an opinion about why we don't see our stallion classes with huge #'s of entries? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep...this was told to me by a major show manager a few years ago...stallion classes don't fill because the owner doesn't want to risk their stallion losing the class.

BTW - Ilona..I was with you on one of the ISR's trips to Germany (1997). You're right, it was definitely NOT a buying trip..we looked at stallions and foals, and saw some beautiful farms ! And I learned ALOT, so for me it was truly an educational trip. We were warmly welcomed at each farm, and their respect for Ekkehard and Karsten was obvious.

We simply must do it again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Tiki]

Kareen <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Barnblindness is nothing that is limited to the US (where did I say it was??) but as a matter of fact women with no professional career seem to be more prone to it than farmers who are used to evaluating their livestock for generations and as another matter of fact the average US WB breeder is exactly that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>HUH????????????? Where on earth did you get that "fact"????? You sure aren't talking about me or the breeders I know.

[jumpgirl]

Does anyone but me have a problem with quasi-european registries calling themselves oldenburg, holsteiner, hanoverian, etc, and then get mad and/or charge extra for using a horse acutally FROM that region?

Some poster said something about "promoting the breed". Well warmbloods are not breeds. They are named after the region they are born in. Do any of you realize that? "Born in the U.S. Hanoverians, Born in the U.S. Holsteiners, Born in the U.S. Oldenburgs." Give me a break. MARKETING. You are trying to MARKET a U.S.A. product by naming it something in Europe and then getting mad because buyers want to go to Europe and see. The more success you have here, the more you make the Euorpean product desirable because, after all, it is the real deal, not something "adopted", "adapted", "learned from", "offshoot of", "come a long way in a short time of". The Oldenburg version of an Oldenburg will always be able to be marketed better as "oldenburg" rather than an american version of an oldenburg. Your selling imitations - real leather always sells better than "geniune naugahyde" no matter what the quality of the imitation.

Come up with your own product under your own name and then you really have something to sell.

[Kareen]

I'm sorry if anybody takes offense by my barnblindness statement it wasn't meant in an offensive way.
If you think I'm wrong in my belief that it's mostly middle aged wifes without professional careers who are breeding WB's in the US I suggest for you to have a look at the memberlists of various registries and if I'm wrong I'll happily apologize http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Also if it is not non-professional ladies then why exactly can they NOT take the breeding as a hobby like almost everyone in Europe does?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a hobby breeder. There are plenty who are doing a super job on both sides of the pond. In fact most of the most successful international caliber show horses technically stem from hobby breeders (meaning their breeders do not make a living primarily breeding horses). I just don't see why you take offense. Do you say barnblindness does not exist within the US wb breeding scene? I see it as a major problem and maybe it is one reason why so many buyers still prefer to shop in the motherlands rather than buying in the US.

Ilona how come you know prices on all the imported horses as well as precise details about how their vettings went / what their x-rays looked like at the time of purchase?

In my experience horseowners normally don't run around telling everybody how much they paid. If they do I would doubt whether the information is always correct as they might have a purpose telling you they paid more to justify what they ask when they resell. Plus do they ever even know what kind of markup was involved in a sale? Every so often do I miss a sale because of some ridiculously greedy American trainer who wants a commission for merely ok'ing a horse regardless whether it suits the client or not which I am totally not into as I feel it is unfair to both the buyer and seller. If they make a trip to ride the horse and evaluate a horse (as in work being done) they deserve getting paid but this 'I want 10% or there won't be a sale' think simply doesn't fly with me.

To claim that imported horses are generally overpaid is a generalization as sweeping as I never made one. How stupid do you think buyers are? In my experience the average American buyer has a very good concept of what's available in which pricerange and I can assure you all the people who have contacted me over the past years have told me how long they have been looking around at home and not found what they were looking for, how many airmiles spent. I don't think these people would lie to me (why should they).
Again I don't say it's all roses here. Many clients are shocked to see what a green upscale horse can sell for here as they are very used to prices being based on scores and show records but seldom quality. I know a whole bunch of breeders in the US who have priced all their foals the same with no reflection of potential even if one appears to be worth way more and outbeat their barnmates for lengths.
A European breeder would never do that because they are mostly farmers or at least come from a countryside background and very much used to animals being priced differently according to quality and/or performance.
It is fascinating to me how someone can get involved in horse-breeding at some point in their adult life and expect to make a profit after a couple of years. It is just a very rare event and all I wanted to point out is that maybe some US breeders need to get their glasses off about claiming to be profitable businesses. This has nothing to do with progress being made or not. I have repeatedly said how much respect I have for the achievements that have been made by many individuals.

I am just so tired of being accused of overpricing only because I am in Germany. My US clients pay the same as my German or UK clients and I work hard to make things work for each single customer so let's agree to disagree about the prevalence of barnblindness within the US and move on can we? I apologize if my previous posts were offensive I sure didn't mean to offend anybody.

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Does anyone but me have a problem with quasi-european registries calling themselves oldenburg, holsteiner, hanoverian, etc, and then get mad and/or charge extra for using a horse acutally FROM that region?

Some poster said something about "promoting the breed". Well warmbloods are not breeds. They are named after the region they are born in. Do any of you realize that? "Born in the U.S. Hanoverians, Born in the U.S. Holsteiners, Born in the U.S. Oldenburgs." Give me a break. MARKETING. You are trying to MARKET a U.S.A. product by naming it something in Europe and then getting mad because buyers want to go to Europe and see. The more success you have here, the more you make the Euorpean product desirable because, after all, it is the real deal, not something "adopted", "adapted", "learned from", "offshoot of", "come a long way in a short time of". The Oldenburg version of an Oldenburg will always be able to be marketed better as "oldenburg" rather than an american version of an oldenburg. Your selling imitations - real leather always sells better than "geniune naugahyde" no matter what the quality of the imitation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jumpgirl, you have taken a series of stray facts and assumptions and jumbled them together to support a premise that is- at times- almost nonsensical.

Here are a few facts: Warmblood breeders are well aware that Oldenburgs, Holsteiners, Hanoverians are not breeds per se, but rather they are a select group of equines who are approved to a given registry (and that registry’s breeding population), based on phenotype, pedigree and having been approved for the registry by a breeding director or inspector.

And, if, for example, Dr. Rolland Ramsauer approved a given equine’s pedigree and phenotype as suitable to be included in the Oldenburg breeding fraternity in Germany (in his capacity as the German Oldenburg Verband's Breeding Director), and he approved a given equine’s pedigree and phenotype as being suitable to be included in the Oldenburg breeding fraternity here in the USA (in his capacity as the German Oldenburg Verband’s North American Breeding Director), his assessments in Germany were not better than his assessments in the USA. His judgment and ability to assess pedigree and phenotype does not diminish as his plane crosses the Atlantic.

So a breeding director's decisions about the merit of a given equine and whether they should be included in a given registry's breeding population are not of less value because they are made here in the USA.

As for calling them the American Version … you seem to ignore the fact that inspectors for all these registries are either Germans, residing in Germany (who simply tour here in the summer), or they are members of an Inspection committee headed by a German director. It is not the case of an American Inspector deciding on a phenotype and pedigree to be included in a German based registry.

AS for coming up with our own product… there is nothing wrong with breeders choosing that route if that is what they wish to do. But many of us have chosen a different route and purchased breeding animals that are (or have been) inspected by and approved to these German based registries. These registries came to this country and said - that for a fee - they could inspect and approve horses bred here for inclusion into their breeding books. So, we’ve taken them up on their offer. And what we breed here under their supervision is as credible as what is bred in other parts of the world under their supervision.

[Kareen]

[/QUOTE]_HUH?????????????_ Where on earth did you get that "fact"????? You sure aren't talking about me or the breeders I know.[/QUOTE]

So you mean you all DO come from a farming background? Where are those people. I have met surgeon's wifes, real estate agent's wifes, golfplayer's wifes, investment banker's wifes, engeneerer's wifes, architect's wifes etc.etc. as well as a number of of women who did have a profession of their own but it was never farming but almost always did they get involved in breeding during their adult life.
If I hear someone referring to their foals as their 'babies', 'sweet personalities' or as having 'puppy dog attitudes' yet at the same time claim 'true FEI potential' for just about everything they have I am just not enticed they have a very rational approach to evaluating their horses. Who in their right mind would evaluate a 'baby'?

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So you mean you all DO come from a farming background? Where are those people. I have met surgeon's wifes, real estate agent's wifes, golfplayer's wifes, investment banker's wifes, engeneerer's wifes, architect's wifes etc.etc. as well as a number of of women who did have a profession of their own but it was never farming but almost always did they get involved in breeding during their adult life.
If I hear someone referring to their foals as their 'babies', 'sweet personalities' or as having 'puppy dog attitudes' yet at the same time claim 'true FEI potential' for just about everything they have I am just not enticed they have a very rational approach to evaluating their horses. Who in their right mind would evaluate a 'baby'? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kareen, I reject most all of your underlying premises including your underlying premise that any given farmer - merely by virtue of the fact that he is a farmer - is possessed of some extraordinary skill and breeding insight that an educated accomplished person lacks. One could make the strong argument that an educated accomplished person would have the intellectual capacity to easily grasp the principles of breeding and the financial where-with-all to make breeding choices based on quality rather that a poor farmer’s emphasis on profit margin. So the poor farmer might actually be making poor breeding choices (and benefit from a culture and system that support his endeavors) while the educated accomplished breeder might be light years ahead of the poor farmer.


And whether or not a breeder refers to a foal as “baby’” is irrelevant to whether the breeder can assess the merit of the foal.

[paintedsportponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What, people, is the "key message" behind your marketing efforts? I've taken to going my own way instead of following the traditional sportpony crowd because, for me, a "sportpony" is a pony that can be competitive against horses--and I have never gotten as simple, understandable and reproducible a "key message" from anyone else producing sportponies.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with my definition, but I am using it to illustrate why, if you can't quickly and simply identify to ANYONE--newbie or not--what EXACTLY you are selling, you're doomed because you have no foundation on which to build your marketing efforts or distinguish your product from others...or enable YOUR product to compete with ALTERNATIVE products (and that's the real problem).

Soooooo, paintedsportponies, "buzz" about WHAT?

Sportponies Unlimited
Now located in Clayton, 30 minutes Southeast of Raleigh, NC.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I don’t profess to be an expert or have the all the answers I have done very well in the last decade in several businesses where you live and die by excellent marketing and advertising and meeting consumer needs and demands with a great product .

My client base is primarily the hunter market and my target market comes to me (Florida) every year and they are actively looking for young stock to take back with them when they leave.

These buyers are time constrained and what free time they have they do not wish to drive all over Florida wasting their time looking at horses and ponies that turn out to be not suitable. This is why most top trainers and horse buyers in the hunter market stick to known trainers and barn owners who they know will represent the animal correctly as to its suitability and training level.

The convenience of shopping in Europe is highly attractive to some because of the heavy concentration of animals one can see in a short time. That same convenience can be provided if there is an auction or showcase with private sale potential in the areas of Ocala’s Hits and Wellington’s WEF as the buyers are already there without having to fly across the planet.

This concept has been highly successful at Pony Finals which holds a pony auction each year and there is no doubt that it will be very successful in Florida as well. We hope to put on an event annually that will grow and become more popular as the “buzz” is provided by word of mouth and a good advertising campaign.

[Tiki]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So you mean you all DO come from a farming background? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now that's just bull puckey! Why would a pig farmer, a beef cattle farmer, a dairy farmer, a sheep rancher, or a crop farmer be far superior to me as a horse breeder? No, I didn't grow up on a farm, rather I essentially grew up in a riding stable and have studing riding, horsemanship and breeding from and with some of the top people. Even veterinarians (as you should know) specialize. I would no more bring a sick horse to a small animal veterinarian or a 'cow doctor' than I would expect to take a trip to the moon in my lifetime. Any by the way, do you consider Ingo Pape to be a hobby breeder? or others of his stature??? But really, why on earth would you need to be a farmer to be a horse breeder?

[pwynnnorman]

paintedsportponies, one of the problems--as this thread's sidetracking illustrates--is that we're too quick to take the discussion to a personal level. As a result, you missed my point: I only used my own sportpony definition to illustrate the LACK of product differentiation that illustrates the "market" your username implies. Indeed, your very response illustrates even more the issue I, and the original newsletter comment introduces. I've sold several ponies quite well at the Pony Finals--HUNTER PONIES.

When, when, when will "sportpony" breeders in general EVER distinguish them from hunter ponies--especially if they can't even DISCUSS the "concept" without falling back on hunters?

WHAT concept are you TALKING ABOUT? The point I'm trying to make--not just for sportponies, but for ALL US breeders--is that you have to be able to articulate what the heck it is you are selling--otherwise, it's no more than a hit-or-miss matter. YOU HAVE NO "MARKET"--you just have haphazard, inconsistent sales with no foundation and no progression, except piggybacking efforts (US WBs or sportponies--the problem is the same).

I find myself agreeing with the "middle-aged women hobbiest" criticisms because, IMO, "guys" would have long-since done the kind of product differentiation and branding that you see so clearly in more male-dominated horse breeding circles. Here, weust bicker and never decide on one bloody thing, not even what the heck we're trying to PRODUCE.

BTW, here's a more specific example: read the classifieds in the UK's HORSE AND HOUND magazine. You'll see several distinct types categorized there: hunter ponies, lead liners, "all rounders." Each of those types the horse owning public AND newbies can tell apart quickly and easily. What establishes the VALUE of each type--how much an individual is worth given its traits--is also clear AND who (what CONSUMER) would be attracted to that type is also clear.

Now take your marketing experience, paintedsportponies, and APPLY it to the INDUSTRY you seemed to indicate your upcoming event is meant to promote...

Thus I'll ask you again, "Buzz" about WHAT?

[ise@ssl]

Wow this is getting funny!!!

I guess Arabians can't be bred in the U.S. either!

And Kareen - most people who buy horses in Europe are all too happy to brag about the "bucks" they paid!

But I will forever wonder about the "middle aged women with no professional background" description of WB breeders!! Thanks Kareen - it's a real giggle for me.

Well back to the barn work and turning out those "whatever they are" horses and ponies I've bred that look a lot like the horses/ponies I saw in Germany earlier this month. tee hee

[ise@ssl]

Sorry - for some reason I can't edit my posts ...

Wanted to add that the concept that the various WB's relate to their region is hooey as well - just look at the brand on the hip and then look at the pedigree. Hard to find any that have a pedigree with all the horses having the same brand as that specific horse has on their hips.

I'm also just laughing to hard about the concept that women in the breeding business here are just "wives" of professional men. HELP ME GOD! I had a higher "cum" than my husband in Business School and the women I know in this business certainly don't hang their hats on their husbands' identities. There are some people who go to Europe and blow BIG BUCKS way over value on horses that might fit into Kareen's category but be careful Kareen - if they get wind of your description of them - they may not write those big checks anymore at the Auctions!!

[paintedsportponies]

pwynnnorman,

Again, I don't propose to have all the answers and I am not trying to reinvent the wheel or solve long standing problems of warmblood breeders.

I have been in a niche (hunters) and have never had a problem easily selling my crossbred hunter ponies. I am located in Ocala and used to ride and show myself and was a horse show mom for many years and many of the kids I used to ride with are now the people you read articles about in Practical Horseman. Sigh...one of the benefits of being an aging boomer I guess.

A group of us breeders are now working on a Florida Pony Breeders group along the same lines as the Virginia and Maryland Pony Breeders Group. Another group that has had great success in the Warmblood breeding is the Midwest Breeders Group.

Again, I don't know what all the answers are but I do know that the hunter market is the lions share of the demand and hunter ponies have a great life and are well cared for. For me, it is a natural to start what with what I know and what I know will work and what I can market to with guaranteed success.

I don't know the eventing and dressage market as well and others within our Florida Pony Breeders group will hopefully be able to help with knowledge on how best to market to that discipline.

You have to start somewhere and this thread is helpful. Our group is meeting for the first time in January to discuss some of these same issues.

As far as "BUZZ"... I used to put on a show every week in a 30,000 square foot multivenue nightclub/restaurant complex that included a live bull riding nightly. I also produced a television show filmed at my venue weekly. I wrote the show and used to beat Saturday Night live in the ratings.

I am confident of two things... I can create "BUZZ" with a publicity campaign and there is a huge market for the product in February and March in Florida. Now... all I need are high quality ponies (and horses if we choose to include them) and I will put on the mother of all parties that will not long be forgotten by those who attend this event. In the entertainment industry we call this the WOW factor and if I didn't attain that weekly I would have been out of business in no time.

It is pretty simple to me : Buyers + Ponies + Fun Event + Conveinence = $$$$$ for Breeders and Happy Repeat Customers the following year when we repeat it.

[pwynnnorman]

I'm sorry, paintedsportponies, I read into your username something entirely different. There is a huge, well-established and exquisitely well-defined market for hunter ponies.

And I don't think we can continue this particular thrust productively because, well, what can I say? There's just too much to address concerning your phrase "it is pretty simple to me."

I'm just going to bow out...again.

[paintedsportponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Wow this is getting funny!!!

I guess Arabians can't be bred in the U.S. either!

And Kareen - most people who buy horses in Europe are all too happy to brag about the "bucks" they paid!

But I will forever wonder about the "middle aged women with no professional background" description of WB breeders!! Thanks Kareen - it's a real giggle for me.

Well back to the barn work and turning out those "whatever they are" horses and ponies I've bred that look a lot like the horses/ponies I saw in Germany earlier this month. tee hee <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another breed that certainly didn't have its best horses bred in its place of origin is the ColonialAmericanian Horse (American Quarter Horse) that was a crossbred between imported European stock and Arabs and Barbs in the 1600's. The best of that breed was bred out West in later years.

[suecross]

I think Karreen is just making a point ....that most European breeders have a background of many years, perhaps generations of exposure to breeding practices of different species of animals, something we dont have as a group.
Why would we dispute that? I know breeders that dont even ride and never have, just like a know a vet that has never whelped a litter.
Bonnie

[Kareen]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
paintedsportponies, one of the problems--as this thread's sidetracking illustrates--is that we're too quick to take the discussion to a personal level.

How very very true! Look at how each and every of my statements is being torn apart by Cartier, Tiki et.al. Where did I say you *HAVE* to be a farmer in order to know how to breed horses?
Nowhere. I merely pointed out that if you *ARE* a farmer you are used to a more rational approach to animals in general that you are likely to carry over into your horse-breeding. And it certainly doesn't really hurt if your family has bred horses for a few generations either whether Cartier thinks her bright self will easily catch up a curriculum of a few lifetimes in just the couple of years she may be alive http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The other way around you will be more likely to look at your horses as pets if you got into horses for fun reasons initially. And forgive me I do think it makes a huge difference whether you regard your foals as your 'babies' or not http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

'I find myself agreeing with the "middle-aged women hobbiest" criticisms because, IMO, "guys" would have long-since done the kind of product differentiation and branding that you see so clearly in more male-dominated horse breeding circles. Here, weust bicker and never decide on one bloody thing, not even what the heck we're trying to PRODUCE.'

This is exactly my point. I think I am as far from being sexist as one can be but there are a few certain things that are typical of women, one of which is exactly this carrying everything on to a personal level even if it is totally non-personal.

And no Ingo Pape is not a Hobbybreeder but he definitely comes from a farming background (just as the vast majority of breeders in lower saxony). I think you can even read about it on their website. If I'm not mistaken they own around 60 ha and did pigs, and cattle and what most other farmers in that area do - fruits, mostly apples. Same holds true for Heinrich Ramsbrock, The Kathmann's (both of them), The Vorwerks, The Giesselmanns, Meyer zu Bextens, Paul Schockemöhle's family, The de Baeys and I could go on and on.

Also breeding success doesn't necessarily go hand in hand believe it or not. That's because WB breeding is no science or skill that is 'easily grasped' or learned from studying but it is a passion that grows over generations.
I didn't say US breeders can't breed. Nor did I accuse anyone around of breeding garbage which is apparently what you read out of my critizism of hobby attitude and barnblindness. I never said all US wb breeders were bored housewives. Likewise I never said anywhere that a European horse was higher quality. It's not me who is getting p****d all the time but it's you guys making these sour comments.

[Kareen]

To suecross: That's exactly my point. Why deny it? Especially since there are many other things where Americans (as a group) as well as females (again as a group) are at a huge advantage. Picking up new trends is something Europe isn't exactly famous for, we are also not particularly innovative and there definitely could be more knowledge here about how economics work (as Ilona pointed out before). These are things that are working pro the US-breeding industry and I would find it more productive if US-breeders as a group would pay more attention to these traits instead of denying the differences existing - good and bad.
Glad someone understands what I'm trying to say http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I merely pointed out that if you *ARE* a farmer you are used to a more rational approach to animals in general that you are likely to carry over into your horse-breeding. And it certainly doesn't really hurt if your family has bred horses for a few generations either whether Cartier thinks her bright self will easily catch up a curriculum of a few lifetimes in just the couple of years she may be alive <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would one be more rational because they are a farmer? Again I utterly reject your premise… it is without credible foundation.

And the farmers of a generation ago were very likely breeding cart and plow horses, not anything like the phenotype of the modern warmblood Sporthorse. I question your underlying premise that because the previous generation did such and such that the current generation has the same level of skill. I even reject the premise that one would always want to duplicate what a previous generation was breeding.

The son of a doctor is not a skilled doctor by virtue of the fact that his father was a doctor. It is up to each person, in each generation to study and achieve on their own… and the mental acuity required to achieve (and excel) in any profession speaks to a person’s ability to grasp concepts and apply principles. So again, it is not necessary that one be a farmer to breed (or identify) a good horse.

[paintedsportponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
I'm sorry, paintedsportponies, I read into your username something entirely different. There is a huge, well-established and exquisitely well-defined market for hunter ponies.

And I don't think we can continue this particular thrust productively because, well, what can I say? There's just too much to address concerning your phrase "it is pretty simple to me."

I'm just going to bow out...again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are free to bow out if you like but I think you are making a contribution to the thread and I am interested in your point of view.

As far as my name is concerned I called myself Painted Sport Ponies because I my ponies are sport ponies. Most of the ponies I produce will be hunter ponies which I certainly think are sport ponies (I know there are some who disagree with that). However, I also have quite a few mares in my herd which are definately dressage producers.

I also stand a stallion who completed and passed the grueling pony stallion test at Paxton Farm and is currently in training with Jen Holling. This same pony will eventually be campaigned in CT, dressage and CDE as his training progresses. ( I also drive in addition to my barrel racing, hunt seat and dressage background).

I believe my stallion will eventually be a great event pony producer but that remains to be proven...however, I will be breeding for that in addition to breeding hunter ponies with him. I have and am currently buying a vareity of mares for my own herd to test breed this year.

If I were strictly in this for the money I would have stuck with hunters exclusively but I do love the concept of the "sport pony" as you define it on your own website. The bold and fearless athlete that has a heart as a big as a lion and the look of eagles and beats the pants off of horses in the ring or cross country course.

I won't have any progeny for the CT or dressage out of my stallion for several years and by then I should have the marketing angle figured out for that group. I have had occasional ponies that ended up in the dressage and CT disciplines but I am admittedly a hunter gal.

Hunters: Old Soul. Sport Ponies of the Eventing Kind: Newbie. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[jumpgirl]

Arab is a breed, again, warmbloods are not. Why do we keep having to point out this difference? Cartier says that you guys all know it but from so many of these posts comparing the two, I'm really not sure many of you understand it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Wanted to add that the concept that the various WB's relate to their region is hooey as well - just look at the brand on the hip and then look at the pedigree. Hard to find any that have a pedigree with all the horses having the same brand as that specific horse has on their hips. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for making my point for me, Ilona. Again, it is not a breed. But what the europeans do that americans do NOT, is that they take those bloodlines and register the resulting offspring as their own, not a holsteiner hanoverian or a Swedish Oldenburg. Why is it an american oldenburg? Its not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So a breeding director's decisions about the merit of a given equine and whether they should be included in a given registry's breeding population are not of less value because they are made here in the USA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you. Yes, they are included in a "registry". So why are you for penalizing mare owners for using some stallions and not others if they are all in the same "registry" - just because some are here and some are there? Didn't you just say they were all judged under the same system and in the same "registry"? You want to support american breeding systems by penalizing foreign stallions? If they are the same registry, no stallion is "foreign" is it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> you seem to ignore the fact that inspectors for all these registries are either Germans, residing in Germany (who simply tour here in the summer), or they are members of an Inspection committee headed by a German director. It is not the case of an American Inspector deciding on a phenotype and pedigree to be included in a German based registry.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, another poster on one of the others threads stated that the AHHA has all american judges with the exception of maybe one. So you arguement doesn't really hold up. Also, it has been discussed that the quasi-european registries want us to develop more of our own inspectors so they don't have to come over as much. Again, your arguement is losing power as that strategy comes to fruitation.

You are trying to have it both ways and can't. The market sees it. Are the warmblood breeders going to be the last ones holding an empty bag?

[pwynnnorman]

Ah, paintedsportponies, I undrstand now, My apologies for my confusion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the marketing angle figured out for that group <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well put. I wish we could, together, figure out how to do that. I have some ideas (based on stride length, but, golly, how I'd like to brainstorm with a group--just do a bunch of freethinking, no restrictions--on ALL of the potential angles.

[ahf]

I know I'm going to be sorry I weighed in on this...but first - a story.

A week before Christmas there was a knock on the mudroom door. I looked through the glass panes in the door and see just the tips of a poinsettia at a height of about five feet off the ground - but nothing else. I open the door and look down to see my 9yo next door neighbor holding on to it. He hands me the plant and says "Thank you for your business. Merry Christmas." Little Tyler brings me my hay - and considers me "his" client. He has an agreement with his grandpa that he gets to sell every bale he picks up in the field if the bale kicker misses the hay cart. If the bale kicker has been operating particularly efficiently Grandpa has been known to kick a few out of the cart. ;-) And that brings me to my point.

Now this kid loves farming more than I think nearly anyone. He is a 6th or 7th generation (or more?) - the farm has been in the family since 1840. He spends every spare instant with his granddad. Feeding, calving, breeding, haying, planting. He's had a 4H market calf every year since he was 4 - which HE chooses after discussion from that spring's calf crop. I find it difficult to believe that watching his family make breeding decisions, culling decisions, and just generally being involved in the inexorable cycle of life and death since the day he first became cognizant... won't make him a better cattleman than a guy that gets into it at the age of 30. By the time he's 30 he will have seen the results of 13 generations of breeding decisions. That's not the same as having a dad as a doctor - you don't commonly accompany you doctor dad/mom to the office and watch his/her every decision, diagnosis and treatment.

I am jealous of Kareen in a way. Her family has been breeding Hanoverians for....what? 90 Years? Let's say she's 30 years old. That's 8 generations of mares. Watching over the decades what your families' mares produce - the successes and the "whoops - won't do THAT again" products. She's got a HUGE head start on me - and the oral history and knowledge of her parents thrown in the mix. These are INTACT mare lines - not acquisitions. Her ability to predict what the mare family will produce is far greater than mine, with my two mares acquired. I don't know their granddams.

I'm also sitting here mentally running through my list of breeder friends, and right now I'm unable to come up with one who doesn't work outside the home to support his/her "habit" or in the case of some of the stallion owners I know who've been in the business for 30 years... don't have spouses that contribute to the cause. Maybe those breeding operations now pay for themselves, but I'm fairly certain that they didn't in the beginning. Incidentally, the SO's I'm thinking of did not start out breeding Hanoverians. It was Thoroughbreds or QH.

[jumpgirl]

ahf, well said.

Also, breeder who are farmers are ahead because, #1, they already have their land. #2, that land was probably paid for/be paid by other agriculture than horses. #3. Their barn is already there. #4. Their pastures/fencing are already there. #5. Their tractors, spreaders, etc. are already there.

The newbies to horse breeding often times try to "factor" in these costs into their offspring sales. The farmers don't.

I do agree with the premise that most warmblood breeders in the U.S. are women who either have family money, have a successful husband who doesn't mind paying for it or at least helps pay for it. These women see their horses as pets and are typically pretty barn blind. Many do not show and have no idea what makes a good performance horse. Their education is limited to inspections and breed shows. They place huge amounts of importance to trotting around the triangle and they pick "pretty" over performance for their mares. The inspection and breed shows are the end all of end alls.

The european breeders see inspections, etc as just the first phase, as just one component. They typically show, have family members who show, or attend shows regularly. Many breeders - not all - also ride, train, board even if it is just a handful. That makes them more able to tell you accurately what a young horse will be like in the show ring.

[Tiki]

I'm sorry, but I still find this insulting!

[TQ]

Just to add one more point of view. I am from a farming and ranching family that has bred horses and cattle for 5 generations that I know of....maybe more. My head man at the farm is also a 5th generation horseman. I am now showing (and winning with) my 3rd generation of Dutch horses that started with my imported foundation stallion, Best of Luck, by Lucky Boy. I don't have another job, except that I also photograph horses on a professional basis. I feel that my 2 careers actually benefit each other...I know how the horse should look from the breeding and showing experience and can try to make the photo subjects look their best. The photographic end of the business takes me to some of the best shows in the world so I constantly see the top horses and can observe the bloodlines in action. My husband does not financially support my breeding and training business. His involvement with the World Cup increases our exposure to the international horse world and that also benefits both of my careers. In past years we have imported many many horses from Europe.
And now to the point of the previous information. We, among others, are breeding excellent horses in America. Our breeding program is designed to use the best of the European bloodlines and combine them with best of the mares in America (imported or not) and to raise the foals in a manner tailored to produce a horse specifically for the American market. We keep in mind that the American rider is most often a woman or a junior and needs a lighter, more sensitive horse than the one needed by a large German man. We keep in mind that the American Hunter needs to be an elegant horse with a kind, brave generous character, a long flowing stride and beautiful jumping style. Our breeding goals may be a little different from the European breeding goals because they are designed specifically for Americans. I appreciate the registries that support the American breeders and I will continue to work with the registries that are helpful to the mare owners who breed to our stallions. We have not found it necessary to import any horses for the last 10 years. We are obviouisly very proud of what we are producing here.

[ltw]

Please be careful about stereotyping and lumping all US breeders into one bucket. Some of us may not have come from generations of farming families but many of us come from equestrian families and have ridden and competed since childhood and are good "horsemen".

In some cases, we come from equestrian families where we grew up on a horse foxhunting next to our Mom or Dad or competing on our ponies next to our Mom's and Dad's at horse shows.

In my case, that would mean 43 years of riding and succussfully competing in every discipline from open jumping, eventing, show hunters and dressage.

Many US breeders are longtime "horsemen" with alot of good basic equestrian/horsemanship skills so be careful about the statements here.

Most of my fellow breeder friends actively ride and compete like me today. Weknow what we are looking for in a performance horse. We breed because we enjoy the challenge of always trying to produce that perfect riding horse that we get a huge thrill out of riding.

I have met the "stereotype" newbie breeders that some of you mention, that never really rode, never really owned horses until recently, but I don't choose to travel in those circles and find they are not as common in the group that I associate with.

I do agree with AHF that many Europeans have an advantage being able to watch thier mare families produce year after year and are able to predict better what the outcome will be. I am always envious too when I visit these breeders in Germany as they are such a wealth of knowledge to learn from. I wish I had grown up there in that environment.

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Please be careful about stereotyping and lumping all US breeders into one bucket. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I concede that we all form opinions based on our life experiences... and then we act based in part on the opinions we’ve formed. I read many posts here which express opinions and assumptions as fact, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. There is no ultimate right or wrong point of view, but I think Laura’s statement (quoted above), is a useful axiom to keep in mind. Stereotypes are seldom accurate and are often offensive.

[Kareen]

ahf that is way too much credit for my operation as I am only a second generation breeder. It has started no earlier than in the late 50's and our marefamily is currently at generation 6 only. I agree about the difference in knowing your family for a long time vs. aquiring a good mare and starting out newly. That's what my father did back when he bought our foundation mare back then and I am still grateful for the good luck he had with this purchase and that he had the stamina to make the decisions he has made regardless of what other people thought. When our 'carry on' mare was born in 1973 it was not exactly popular to use an xx like he did http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ltw I surely don't say there are no good horsemen (and women!) involved in US-wb breeding and obviously generalizations are never really true. I still think decisions will be different if you took over from generations before. Where is the famous 'thinking in generations' supposed to come from if you don't have a number of generations back to look at?

Once or twice my family purchased or traded in additional broodmares (that was during the 80's when there was a huge demand for horses and people literally flowing by picking up prospects of any age for good money right from the field http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Soon we stopped though as we saw it was just not the same than nurturing 'our own' family. Most certainly one of the biggest advantages a young breeder can have is to be able to start and ride many of their own products. These years of starting and competing a diversity of horses both our own and other people's (I did that from about my 12th through 24th year until I entered vet school). Nothing has ever been more valuable an experience in terms of becoming deeply familiar with our marefamily as well as other horses from misc. origins. It has taught me a lot and I will most certainly try to offer the same to my own children so they will have the equipment to maintain and improve our marefamily once I am old.

I well acknowledge fast breeding progress is possible by having a lucky hand selecting your foundation marebase and making wise, educated decisions. That's plain to see in many of the foals I have seen on the ground while in the US and when I read what's recently being published about the US inspection tours here in Germany one can also see from both the inspector's comments and the pictures that quality is rapidly improving.
What I think needs to be (and seems to be) worked on is the connection between breeding and riding and that is of course more easily achieved when the breeders ride as well like many members of this board do. Once that gap or missing link is closed marketing WB's 'made in the US' will be so much easier. I know how it is here in Germany right now. People just don't buy off the field like they did in the 80's. They don't spend serious money on unstarted 3yo's. Riders and agents all shop at shows and whatever has done well at shows will sell. Once sales are being made (even if you lose $$ selling a horse for 20K after spending years of work and $$ to bring it along and promote into its showlife) I would think the next sales will be easier (e.g. maybe you can sell a sibling to said horse because someone who loves the precursor model but doesn't have the $$ to buy a 'made one')

[talloaks]

LTW posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have met the "stereotype" newbie breeders that some of you mention, that never really rode, never really owned horses until recently, but I don't choose to travel in those circles and find they are not as common in the group that I associate with. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My gosh Laura, you sound like the ultimate snob!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[ise@ssl]

Gee Jumpgirl - I don't know how many breeders you know or where you live but it certainly isn't my experience. I've hosted inspections for 10 years for for the ISR/OLDNA and know breeders all over the country - just about NONE fit your insulting denegration of WB breeders as air head women with smart wealthy husbands who don't know a mule from a horse!! Actually as I look back - most of the people presenting horses at our inspections are people very actively involved in riding (all disciplines) and most have or have had careers of their own and many are not even married! OH YES - many are MEN!

But the insult is a harsh one - so please don't come to us for horse in the future! We don't fit your description and certainly wouldn't want any of our horses heading your way!

[jumpgirl]

Don't worry Ilona, you'd be the last I'd go to for a horse. You live in your own little world and either make up or put words in the mouths of whoever you disagree with to create enough drama to shore up your created drama queen world. Airheads? Knowing a mule from a horse? Keep making it up Ilona. It is about the only thing you are good at.

[carosello]

WHOA guys, take it easy there.
Happy New Year everyone. Peace on earth and all that good stuff.

[Home Again Farm]

Why are we so very eager to jump upon each others words???

As breeders on either side of the pond, we should be pulling together, not constantly sniping. I can see very good points in so many of the posts in this discussion. What I hate to see are the gross generalizations and finger pointing and name calling. What a waste of time and energy. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

I regret that I came so very late to breeding horses. I started breeding when I stopped riding, with the foolish idea that it would be less taxing on my aging body. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Little did I know how aerobic playing with babies could be (oops, Kareen, I guess I just showed my lack of professionalism with that buzzword). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I, like ahf, envy Kareen's family involvement and the fact that she is in a relatively small country where with a minimum of fuss she can attend kuerings, stallion inspections and shows, top notch competitions, etc. I am in a huge country where getting to such venues is less easy, so must do the best I CAN do. I can't start with a long family history of breeding, but does that mean that I should not start at all?? I don't think so.

I also really appreciate the involvement of Alexandra, Kareen, fannie Mae, Gwen and others who share their European perspective with us.

I do not ride anymore. Arthritis and injuries have caught up with me. I did ride for more than 30 years. I competed, and did pretty well for a not terribly talented ammy who was also raising a family. I have spent my life studying horses and examining what about each pleased me. I have always cared for my animals myself and for most of my life have kept them at home, rather than depended on others to care for them. My mares are very special to me because they have given me so much. Are they pets? Not like my dogs, no. I treat them well and if one ever shows me she should not be bred, I place them carefully. Is that unprofessional? I don't think so. I think it is just being a good horseperson AND a good breeder.

I have had some foals that did not grow up as I would have hoped. One was sold as a started three year old for a very small fraction of what I had in him at the time. Another was given away. I do not see all the foals as being born with equal potential, and I know all too well that I will not make $$$ on them all. In fact, I will make $$$ on very few.

I have a topnotch trainer who starts my youngsters if I still own them as three year olds. I do not ride them, but I do watch them being worked and spend a lot of time discussing and conferring with my rider on what their strengths and weaknesses might be. My trainer knows that I am realistic, in fact I am quite critical of my youngsters from the very beginning. I do not expect her to sugar coat or try to hide any faults. I pay her for her honesty as much as for her expertise. Breed shows can be fun and can be tools to sell horses -- especially young ones. But, my goal for all my youngsters is for them to eventually perform well in the show ring. That is when I really can see what I have bred, because, in my mind, pretty is as pretty does. The thing that I enjoy the most about this breeding thing is the constant seeking for improvement over what was bred before. It is a never ending, exciting challenge. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

One of the biggest challenges that I have is finding buyers who are truly horse people, who will give the young horses the best possible chance at fulfilling their potential. I have been mostly lucky in that respect, but I recognize that so much can be done to take away a horse's gaits or willingness when the rider lacks experience and sensitivity or does not have knowledgeable guidance or won't follow that guidance. But that is another story entirely... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Sorry for the rambling book, but I am passionately involved in my breeding program. Is it perfect? No. Am I doing my best? Yes, I think I am. I am not alone in that, and I truly wish that we could stop fighting amongst ourselves and try to see a common cause. I wish that we could show one another more real respect and less condescension. Many here do post from positive points of view, but some find it easier to concentrate on points of contention than on points of agreement. And that to me is quite sad. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I am not wishing that we would never disagree -- but rather that we could disagree with more finesse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ise@ssl]

Gee I don't live in my own little world - I live in this world and this marketplace. I don't live in Germany and our marketplace will never be identical. So why keep comparing it over and over again. Our farming is in some way similar to Germany's but in more ways it's completely different. Most of our farmers here are not involved in horse breeding - except for specific horse farms.

I just know the people involved in WB breeding are not the stereotype that Kareen and Jumpgirl want to portray. More often than not the "profile" they give is the person who sits at the Auctions in Germany and pays way more for horses than they are worth!!!

I have to breed and sell horses for RIDING. That's what I've done for a very long time and the other men/women I know who do this have to focus on that as well. But again, our riding world has significantly changed - we have more and more people who come into it later in life, have money to spend and want horses that are attractive, good mover and easy to ride and SHOW! Horsemanship and animal husbandry may not be something they ever learn or care to.

Riding in Germany is a much bigger sport - IT WILL NEVER BE THAT BIG HERE! We don't have "state studs" to give low ball stud fees on great horses and NEVER WILL. We are a larger country (Germany is about 2x the size of Wisconsin) and our country won't shrink. We have completely different marketing, logistics and information issues than Europeans do. Yes some similar but many different issues.

It's unfair to not recognize the professionals who stay in the WB breeding business and keep putting good horses out there by sweeping us into an airhead w/rich husbands category. We just need a few more cohesive programs, horse ID system mandated by the NGB, and documentation of horses and their pedigree, performance and BREEDER available to anyone looking for a horse.

[shoos]

I feel first and foremost, we are all in this because we absolutely LOVE horses. Second, we are all a bunch of independent, intelligent people (all with capital I's of course). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Marketing is an individual business agenda for you, independent of all other businesses in this market. Germans seem to be viewed generally successful because heck they started it pretty much first. But not all are successful, only the one's you meet. (That's marketing - how you are perceived.) It's pretty much a fact, basic to business, you are first in the field, you are more recognized as successful and established.
I feel, if you want to market more, you have to become known, which means legwork. That dirty job of shmoozing and networking. (I only say this because it is a necessary evil whether you want to do this or not, knowing the lack of time everyone has in their lives. Some excel
at this and it's not an evil to them.)
If you know what is offered to customers where they happen to be buying and it sells, you have to align to it but also find out what is not offered and push your way in (not literally) and offer it.
Watch any advertising on television and you will see how competitors align themselves up with the "perceived" and often times successful "number one product on the market" then tell you how they are better i.e. Coke and Pepsi, AOL and Net Zero are the first that come to my mind.
Marketing can be used anywhere, look at the free access you have here to market yourselves! If you are not made of money, then you have to be more creative and use the tools in front of you that really don't cost a dime. People are reading, not everyone is responding. How are you marketing yourselves? How are you perceived? Running a business is hard work and two phrases I always remember, there are no lucky ones in business and Luck is always spelled W-O-R-K.
I like you guys, I get a lot of information and ideas from you and I have met wonderful people that I otherwise would never have been in contact with.
I am a smaller breeder, even though I in essence am a seller, I am also a buyer, i.e. upgrading my horses, buying training services, etc. I try never to burn bridges and enjoy the company of horse people. I have a conscience and care about the placement and care of my horses I produce and want the buyer to be absolutely happy they purchased from me. I also have fun interacting with the animals I own and sell, they are all goofy, quirky, individual characters. I also want to make a small profit to enjoy purchasing new horses and services from others.
Those are pretty much my core values that I market to others because I can only produce one or two "products" of inventory (tongue in cheek) a year.
I hope that is what is perceived.

New Haven Sporthorses (http://home.earthlink.net/~shussin)

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
It's tiring to hear the same anonymous people preaching about how easy it is to find a horse in Europe. But these very same people would NEVER EVER EVER buy a horse in the same way here that they do in Europe and that specifically includes the VETTING PROCESS. Horses sold here have to be PERFECT!! We see the imports (there's a lot in our area) and some of them would NEVER EVER EVER pass a Vet exam here - in fact just looking at them the Vet here would probably say - forget it! It's the double standard that frustrates breeders here!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just wanted to let you know this statement, for so many is not true. Horses are vetted no different there, then here if as the purchaser-you want it done.

Guys, I swore myself off these threads but as breeders, fighting like this, and you wonder why some trainers may not want to work with you on a prof. basis. I am NOT attacking any one in general. Actually, if you read each and every one of your posts, in general, you may not agree with one poster but at times they do say something you may agree with.

Cann't you guys try to all get along and work toward some common goals. As marketing, IMO, some are not marketing yourselves too well.

It's a new year. Try to make 05 a year of common goals and maybe we ALL can try to learn from each other no matter where you live or what it is you do in this industry.

[ise@ssl]

Sorry Gold Dust - the issue of vetting is different. Vets here have a much bigger concern over being litigated - so it seems that they note just about everything to be covered.

[Gold Dust]

ise-here we can agree to disagree. [trying to keep with a new happy mode 05 http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif]

One of our buying adventures in Europe led us to purchasing 4. Two came home. Two did not vet out. I found both vets excellant. The reports, proceedures and findings were no different then what I would have recieved from my own vet here at home. Could we have been lucky in finding a good one-maybe but I'm thinking a good vet should do the job and do it right, European or american.
Being I have purchased horses over seas, on home territory or yes, traveling the US far enough that I could not use my own vet I must say I have been happy with the many vets I have needed to use over the years. No matter where they hang their hats.

[jumpgirl]

As far as confusion in marketing, let me ask a question. Are the American Hannoverians, holsteiners, oldenburg, dutch, etc horses bred and raised in America the exact SAME as the ones bred and raised in their home country/region?

IMHO, I beleive some are and some aren't. For most breeders, their ratio of TB mares/non-warmblood mares approved for warmblood breeding far outnumber the one or two "good" mares that they own that are either imported warmbloods or bred from imported warmblood stock. Obviously the offspring from imported stock would be more similar to what is in europe and that is why breeders import mares.

Also, as several posters stated, the horses bred for the american markets need to be lighter and more sensitive for our mostly women riders vs. big german men.

So, how do you reconcile the american bred warmbloods - large influx of TB blood, lighter and more sensitve for a different riding public - from their european counterparts when the horse is called the same thing - again the quasi-european registries vs. a united american one.

You want to get the word out to the buyers but when you say, for example, "this is an Oldenburg", how do you market it as an oldenburg that is lighter and more sensitive or as an oldenburg like acutally in Oldenburg. And if the horses are indeed different, how do you keep tricking yourself in that it is really just the same after all. Especially since europe is trying to go more light and sensitve too.

I don't think you can have it both ways. You can't say that your breeding is the same as europe and that your horses are true holsteiners, oldenburgs, dutch, etc. but then say you breed for the american market which is a lighter more sensitve horse than the counterparts in europe. You guys sound confused so how can you market it without confusing your message.

[Hi Jump]

This thread started with a reference to Ekkehard Bryschs' newsletter that was with the NA Oldenburg 2005 Stallion Auction release. Could someone please post a copy?
That would be appreciated.

[ise@ssl]

Actually they are going toward lighter horses in Europe as well. I feel from my breeding and sales - we need to have a heavier emphasis on temperament. The trainers here are not as abundant as in Europe and no bereiters here either - so we need horses that are perhaps a little more on the quiet steady type than hot.

[Cartier]

Here is an attempt at posting the article

[Cartier]

Here is a word document of the Article.

[Cartier]

INTERNATIONAL SPORTHORSE REGISTRY
OLDENBURG REGISTRY North America
A non-profit tax-exempt corporation

939 Merchandise Mart . Chicago, IL 60654. (312) 527-6544 . fax: (312) 527-6573
Internet: http://www.isroldenburg.org email: ISREG@aol.com

Dear fellow breeder,
Never before have we received a response like that which we received from our last Newsletter editorial. I had featured the “three major weaknesses which are responsible for the fact that North American bred sport horses have not yet made it all the way to the top”. Everybody who responded was in favour of my analysis and many of those who did send their comments expressed that they see the most severe weakness in the area of marketing. Therefore I want to focus a bit more detailed on the marketing of the sport horses today.

What is Marketing?

My previous editorial stated that “we are facing a structural deficit in the sport horse marketing”. It is possibly the biggest challenge to develop sport horse marketing with “intelligent and functional structures to match horses up with riders who are looking for those horses.”
Some of the responses I received came up with suggestions how to improve the marketing environment in North America and often one of the suggestions was to eslablish auctions like many of you know from Germany. Despite the fact that I — for many reasons - don’t think that auctions are the solution for the problem we need to start the efforts of marketing long before it comes to sales matters.
The format of sales is just a minor section of a marketing concept. Before we may analyse what the components of a good marketing program might be, we need to be in agreement about the definition of “marketing” — and in several comments I received I saw more or less a focus on “selling “only.
Marketing is not only much broader than selling, it is not a specialized activity at all. It encompasses the entire business. It is the whole business seen from the point of view of the final result, that is, from the customer’s point of view. This customer focused philosophy is known as the ‘marketing concept’.
The marketing concept is a philosophy, not a system or an organizational structure of sales. It is founded on the belief that successful sales can only be achieved by identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer needs and desires.

A successful marketing concept for sport horses shall make the future riders and the satisfaction of his or her needs the focal point of all breeding and training activities. Successful sport horse marketing - like found in Europe - is driven by experienced breeders and trainers, passionate about delighting the future riders of their produce.
Now that you have been introduced to the definitions of marketing and the marketing

2 EDITORIAL
concept, let’s analyze the important elements of such concept for the sport horse world in North America.
1~
Focus on the Rider
Sport horse marketing shall focus on the satisfaction of riders needs, wants and requirements. From my point of view this is the most important matter and it must determine the breeding decision as well as how you raise and train your horses - but what is it that riders want and need? Of course they are all looking for a modern sport horse, correct, elegant, with good movements, athletic ability and good character etc. We all know that and nobody would want to breed a horse that does not meet these requirements. Anyway, this requires very sophisticated—and tess emotional or taste driven breeding decisions! The editorial of our 2005 Breeders Guide will feature this topic in more details.
Since many breeders are not riders it is even more the responsibility of the breed organization to provide the parameters for successful breeding decisions. It also requires the breeders to listen and learn! There is a proven methodology to achieve the goals of a breeding program — and it’s not limited to Europe. Let’s assume you are already following those goals — what’s next from the perspective of marketing?

Basic Requirements

As a breeder you put a new sport horse on the ground (actually, your mare does based on your decisions) and it is then important to grow it according to the expectations and needs of the future customers. This does of course require good nutrition, health care and handling but also proper documentation. Make sure to breed only to stallions that have a proper license status. It is getting more and more difficult to sell a sport horse without registration documents. Such horse cannot compete in many of the new money classes for young horses (e.g. the $ 20.000 North American Breeders Futurity, the “Born in America” classes) or be enrolled for year end awards (e.g. USDF Horse of the Year). If someone keeps breeding horses but does not care about proper registration he or she will have soon a severe problem to market those horses. We have about 5 — 10 breeders every month who try to get papers for horses born years ago. We saw a nice stallion this year that finally could not get licensed because he has no proper papers. This is too bad and can be avoided easily.

Training is a Must

The next level of expectations and needs of the future customers is related to the training of the horse. Unfortunately there is not a huge market for foals and young horses before riding age, and breeders need to be aware that they in most cases are forced to come up with a marketable horse if they want to sell well. A marketable horse meets the expectations of the customers in tenns of traiuing. By nature the majority of riders is looking for a four or five year old well trained and most likely even show-experienced sport horse. From the view of a marketing concept it is the obligation of a breeder to bring the horse up to the level where it can be sold for the best value. That is at four or five years of age (if not even older). For too long many breeders have not paid enough attention to the time after a horse turns three, Of course it is nice to sell before — but this is not what happens in most cases. Therefore a breeder needs to be prepared to put a three year old into good training, get it out to some shows and get it ready to be marketed. No well designed sales tool can sell a horse which does not comply
with the expectations and needs of the customer. Currently that’s the biggest problem on the North American sport horse market. We are breeding top quality since a number of years now but don’t yet focus enough on “making a sport horse” that meets the needs of the customers / riders.

Correct Terminology

And there are of course some other, I would say minor problems that hinder the sport horse market in North America — compared to what we find in Europe. I would like to just mention two examples. One is the terminology used to describe a horse. That’s very often driven by a very subjective view. The rider from Minnesota who flew to California with her trainer to look at an advertised five year old is a good example. The horse was advertised as I 6.3h beautiful gelding, trained up to third level etc. When the customer arrived at the stable the horse mrned out to be a nice but only 16.lh gelding who was just ready to go into training level classes. “But we have already trained third level lectures” the trainer said. No, thank you, that’s not what we are looking for. Misrepresentation and a vague terminology made the customer travel all the way to California, spend almost $ 2,000 in air fare, rental car and hotel — just to look at a horse that does not come close to her expectations and needs. No wonder if she goes to Europe the next time.

Networking

Another problem on the North American market is the lack of an reliable information network. If you would contact a trainer in Europe about a horse he may not have it but will be able to find something that might meet your expectations trough his network. This kind of network between professionals is not in existence in the US, but would be a very important keystone to a marketing concept that works. In Europe the breed organizations have helped to build a marketing concept for sport horses. It might be time for us to take responsibility for such task as well. Anyway it will only he successful if breeders will “produce” the horses that can be sold. Marketing can’t sell anything which does not meet the customers needs. It’s time for the breeders to become aware of those needs!

biv Ekkehard Brysch

[Hi Jump]

Thank you Cartier!

[pwynnnorman]

Well, he's basically saying what folks here have been saying. Maybe now that the advice has been written with an accent more breeders will consider it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
Training is a Must

The next level of expectations and needs of the future customers is related to the training of the horse. Unfortunately there is not a huge market for foals and young horses before riding age, and breeders need to be aware that they in most cases are forced to come up with a marketable horse if they want to sell well. A marketable horse meets the expectations of the customers in tenns of traiuing. By nature the majority of riders is looking for a four or five year old well trained and most likely even show-experienced sport horse. From the view of a marketing concept it is the obligation of a breeder to bring the horse up to the level where it can be sold for the best value. That is at four or five years of age (if not even older). For too long many breeders have not paid enough attention to the time after a horse turns three, Of course it is nice to sell before — but this is not what happens in most cases. Therefore a breeder needs to be prepared to put a three year old into good training, get it out to some shows and get it ready to be marketed. No well designed sales tool can sell a horse which does not comply
with the expectations and needs of the customer. Currently that’s the biggest problem on the North American sport horse market. We are breeding top quality since a number of years now but don’t yet focus enough on “making a sport horse” that meets the needs of the customers / riders.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will try to dip my hand in this again as I have been reading everything posted for quite some time.
As a trainer, I was saying the same things quite a while ago but no one really listened, told me they sell most of their horses as foals or said they don't have the money for training.
Training topics are going on three threads at one time so I shall go to those.
Pwynn-agreed!

[Cartier]

I realize we all see this situation from our own unique perspective. My feeling is that open frank discussion is of value (even if it is a bit contentious at times). We need to hear each others opinions... even opinions that differ from our own to a marked degree. I think that the fact that we are discussing this topic is a positive step in the right direction. Building any thing of value takes time and every step towards the goal (even a tiny one) is positive.

[lorik]

Gold Dust,
I don't think that everyone was asleep while you spoke. I think they were saying that they needed a cost effective way to get the training done. I don't think the small breeder who produces 3 or 4 foals a year can consider $1200/month in training for each of them. This, in my opinion is where we fall short.
Regional centers might be a way to get it done and market at the same time. The problem I see on that front is the upfront cost of the facility and the 'overseer' of the training, not to mention finding young trainers who want to sign on to do that type of work.
NA breeders NEED to put a marketable product out to the public. They need to find a way to do it within the vast geography that is NA.
It's a puzzle that none of us has put together.

[Kareen]

Before I forget: Happy new year to all!!

[Oakstable]

My trainer charged $590 per month for board and training this past year -- she's a classical dressage trainer. She is very experienced in starting youngsters, mostly warmbloods, but has worked with all breeds.

Sally