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mickeydoodle
Mar. 8, 2010, 09:11 PM
This may be an odd question, but looking at the show results here in Wellyworld, I was struck but the number of people who put "Doctor" on their entries, and thus this gets reported in the results. Why? I could understand if one were an equine vet, being in the equine world, but otherwise?

Now, for full disclosure, I am an MD, with 7 years of post grad training, an appointment at a teaching university, publications, awards, etc. I, however, would never, and have never put my title on a horse show entry. I am very good at what I do in the human world, but just an amateur in the horse world, so why put the "doctor" in at all?

meupatdoes
Mar. 8, 2010, 10:06 PM
This may be an odd question, but looking at the show results here in Wellyworld, I was struck but the number of people who put "Doctor" on their entries, and thus this gets reported in the results. Why? I could understand if one were an equine vet, being in the equine world, but otherwise?

Now, for full disclosure, I am an MD, with 7 years of post grad training, an appointment at a teaching university, publications, awards, etc. I, however, would never, and have never put my title on a horse show entry. I am very good at what I do in the human world, but just an amateur in the horse world, so why put the "doctor" in at all?

One of my trainers has a PhD in statistics. He goes by his first name in the barn, but if I were ever to address him or introduce him by "Prefix Lastname" he would be Dr. X.

It's Dr. Klimke, not Mr.


Drs are Drs on their mailing address, their magazine subscription labels, their name that appears in their college alumni fund donation list, any place where there is a little place to check off Mr, Mrs. Ms, or Dr...why not horseshows?
It is an earned title, and I do not think it is egotistical to use it. They aren't Mrs or Mses, they're Drs.

Noplainjane
Mar. 8, 2010, 10:17 PM
Some people in the horse show world are very traditional with their titles especially if they hear their scores read over the PA. The formality also veries by the seat/discipline and the area of the country. In days of old when horse shows made the society page of the newspaper the title always came before the name of the rider and the name of the horse's owner.

tempichange
Mar. 8, 2010, 10:31 PM
IMHO, you spent the time, effort and cash getting the title, you should get the option.

Renae
Mar. 8, 2010, 10:37 PM
Some people in the horse show world are very traditional with their titles especially if they hear their scores read over the PA. The formality also veries by the seat/discipline and the area of the country. In days of old when horse shows made the society page of the newspaper the title always came before the name of the rider and the name of the horse's owner.

Yep, and known of some matriarchs of the show ring who went by their husband's name in the manner that married women used to be called in public, such as Mrs. F. D. Sinclair. It is very much a "society" thing :)

exvet
Mar. 9, 2010, 01:16 AM
I never put my title (Dr.) on the show entry. Honestly even when I was in a 100% equine practice I preferred to not have people realize I was there. It was hard enough to go to a show and actually just focus on my horses if I had any clients there despite an on-call vet being listed. It's been years since I crossed over to the dark side but I still will get people approaching me at shows wanting me to look at this or that, or recommending this or that...............so no thanks, I know who and what I am as well as the effort it took to get here. At the horse shows I prefer to be the rider/trainer/competitor and not the vet.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 9, 2010, 01:26 AM
I never put my title (PhD) on entries either...it never occurred to me. The only time I really use is it when someone asks, "Is it Ms or Mrs" and then I say, "Neither - it's Dr."

Peggy
Mar. 9, 2010, 02:32 AM
No. Never did. As far as most of the horse world knows, I'm just another stupid babbling amateur.

The odd thing to me is that nowadays there are few to no people using Mr. or Miss or Mrs; the only prefix title I ever hear is Dr. Years ago on the west coast we had Mrs. J.A. Smith but that was many moons ago.

ellebeaux
Mar. 9, 2010, 03:18 AM
OH I can't WAIT for people to call me 'Dr.'! And to announce it over a loudspeaker? HEAVEN!!! And hopefully it will be within the year...

Okay, uh, I'm sure the thrill will wear off after a while but just once, can I, can I?!

Cowgirl
Mar. 9, 2010, 04:10 AM
LOL, like Klimke (which is the only thing alike, lol), I am a Doctor of Jurisprudence. My mail comes addressed to me as Dr. or Esq., but I don't put it on the show entries.

Cowgirl
Mar. 9, 2010, 04:12 AM
BTW, just a curiosity, but having a doctorate entitles you to be called "Doctor", however I also have a Master's degree and no one has ever addressed me as "Master" or "Mistress"....not even my animals.

Can you imagine hearing THAT over the loudspeaker though?

LOL.

Jeito
Mar. 9, 2010, 06:49 AM
LOL, I've never understood people who use titles other than in their professions. I'm an attorney with a graduate degree in political science - and could use JD, Esq, Doctor. Don't use titles on show entries, don't use them on my credit cards, don't use them on my checks (have a friend who does) and don't get mail addressed as such except professionally or from alumni associations. Do you know that the correct Associated Press style for medical doctors is to refer to them by their last name and not their titles - so it would be Doodle rather than Dr. Doodle?

When I'm a judge, do you think I could get them to call me "The Honorable Discobold" over the loudspeaker :winkgrin:?

Kaeleer
Mar. 9, 2010, 06:53 AM
Frankly, I just prefer "Ma'am".

"God", apparently, is taken.

Lisa Cook
Mar. 9, 2010, 07:01 AM
My husband has a PhD and according to him, it is bad form for PhDs to use the title of "Dr." outside of their profession.

The only time there is a "Dr." in front of his name is when his alumni associations ask for money, and on the occasional professional journal.

Oh, and his great-aunt insists on using it when sending birthday & Christmas cards. :)

carovet
Mar. 9, 2010, 07:41 AM
my dad was so proud of me being a dvm, and he was terribly dissapointed when he came to some big show for the first time and i didn't have dr listed on the entry when there were other dr's that did.
i continue to put it on there because it mattered so much to him, and now that i am used to it, i do like seeing it too.

and i must say, my clients have nearly always been respectful of my time when i was at a show, and if there was something they wanted an opinion on i would only offer it if i felt like i could do that in a time that didn't bug me. if i didnt want to or couldn't take the time, i just told them i was sorry and to please contact the vet at the show. it has never stressed me out.

ise@ssl
Mar. 9, 2010, 07:50 AM
I think it's ridiculous. The rest of the people riding aren't announced as Mr. Smith or Mrs. Brown. I find it just plain pretentious and I have 2 degrees. I can certainly understand using your title in whatever profession you have but do you ask people at the barn to address you as Dr.?

exvet
Mar. 9, 2010, 08:22 AM
it has never stressed me out.

It doesn't stress me out as you imply; however, I have lost entry fees which were already paid because I missed out on my ride time/class due to a client's horse getting torn up on the trailer and their insistance that I deal with it then and there. The client refused the on call vet because of a past experience. The on call vet knew I was there too and requested that I deal with it and offered his truck/supplies. It's fortunate that your clients respect your time on your 'off' hours. Obviously, there was no need to list Dr on my entries. Enough people already knew ;)

Honestly at a horse show, I'm more proud of my accomplishments as a rider/trainer. That is how I started in life. Going to vet school came long after I started riding. It's not my DVM that is being assessed when I go down the centerline; so I see no need to announce it to everyone there.

SillyHorse
Mar. 9, 2010, 08:37 AM
Honestly at a horse show, I'm more proud of my accomplishments as a rider/trainer. That is how I started in life. Going to vet school came long after I started riding. It's not my DVM that is being assessed when I go down the centerline; so I see no need to announce it to everyone there.
Says it all. :yes:

Tiki
Mar. 9, 2010, 08:53 AM
The only time I really use is it when someone asks, "Is it Ms or Mrs" and then I say, "Neither - it's Dr." When I am in a military area - especially in civilian clothes - if someone calls me Mrs. then I say, "It's Captain". Otherwise I think it's very pretentious.

scubed
Mar. 9, 2010, 09:04 AM
I'm with DressageGeek on this one. I never use my PhD title except in certain ever so snooty stores/hotels/restaurants, where they ask is it Miss or Mrs (not even the Ms option which I would be fine with). I always reply then, that it is neither, it is Doctor. If in the same settings, people just say Ms. without asking, I am perfectly happy with that and I would never put it on a horseshow entry

jgrass
Mar. 9, 2010, 09:20 AM
I generally don't go by Dr. (Ph.d in Comp Sci) anywhere but in Academic/ Professional circles. Usually if it has "Dr." on the envelope, someone is looking for a donation.

It was once said: "A Ph.D. is like silk underwear. Show it off too much and it cheapens the effect."

Schiffon
Mar. 9, 2010, 10:10 AM
This seems to be more the case with vets. Can't say I've ever seen MD, PhD, or PharmD (as I am) after someone's name in a show program. Always a few DVMs though. Maybe it is the issue that they think it is applicable at a horse event. Or as I've observed of the veterinary profession (my husband is a vet) that some can carry a bit of annoyance that they don't get the respect in terms of salary or societal reverence that MDs do despite equal training and smarts, so maybe they are more likely to want to publicize the accomplishment.

Gotta love when once isn't enough and they are listed as:
Dr. Jane Schmo, DVM.

paintlady
Mar. 9, 2010, 12:08 PM
BTW, just a curiosity, but having a doctorate entitles you to be called "Doctor", however I also have a Master's degree and no one has ever addressed me as "Master" or "Mistress"....not even my animals.

Can you imagine hearing THAT over the loudspeaker though?

LOL.

:lol: I worked for an agency that had an abundance of PhDs. On the website staff directory, all of them listed PhD after their name. Apparently, one of the ladies in the office had a complex and insisted they add MA after her name. I also have an MA, but could care less if it was listed after my name (left it off and never asked for our webmaster to change it).

Phaxxton
Mar. 9, 2010, 12:13 PM
One of my trainers has a PhD in statistics. He goes by his first name in the barn, but if I were ever to address him or introduce him by "Prefix Lastname" he would be Dr. X.

It's Dr. Klimke, not Mr.


Drs are Drs on their mailing address, their magazine subscription labels, their name that appears in their college alumni fund donation list, any place where there is a little place to check off Mr, Mrs. Ms, or Dr...why not horseshows?
It is an earned title, and I do not think it is egotistical to use it. They aren't Mrs or Mses, they're Drs.

They don't address me as Mrs. or my DH as Mr. I've only ever heard doctor... though I can't say I pay attention or care whether other people want to be addressed more formally at horse shows.

I'd start putting "Esq." after name on entries, but that would probably negatively affect my scores. :winkgrin::lol::lol::lol:

Phaxxton
Mar. 9, 2010, 12:16 PM
BTW, just a curiosity, but having a doctorate entitles you to be called "Doctor", however I also have a Master's degree and no one has ever addressed me as "Master" or "Mistress"....not even my animals.

Can you imagine hearing THAT over the loudspeaker though?

LOL.

Oh yeah, I have a juris doctor... You can only imagine the things I'D be called if I put that on my entry. :lol:

Perhaps I'll go Shakespearean and just put "Damned Bloodsucker" on my entry instead of my name...

hollynanne
Mar. 9, 2010, 12:42 PM
When I am in a military area - especially in civilian clothes - if someone calls me Mrs. then I say, "It's Captain". Otherwise I think it's very pretentious.
I was wondering if someone was going to bring this one up. Hubby isn't a "Mr." he's "Lieutenant." However, he doesn't put this on his show stuff. He doesn't even put his full name on his show stuff! (he's an Alexander, but goes by Alex on everything)

He does show in uniform, which I think looks pretty cool. When we lived in Jacksonville, FL (a big military community), noone there ever put their military title on their paperwork, but there were a TON of "Dr. Joe Butthead."
:D

Alagirl
Mar. 9, 2010, 12:49 PM
No. Never did. As far as most of the horse world knows, I'm just another stupid babbling amateur.

The odd thing to me is that nowadays there are few to no people using Mr. or Miss or Mrs; the only prefix title I ever hear is Dr. Years ago on the west coast we had Mrs. J.A. Smith but that was many moons ago.


LOL, Not too long ago I read a 'Dear Abby' a lady was in a total huff because she was no longer addressed as Mrs John Doe after her husband's passing. I think I am not getting it, because I am Mrs Alagirl, or Miss if you can't help it.

On the other hand, the Doctor has a certain flair to it...:lol:
(remembering the good old days of a a Lady Doctor cleaning up in the arena, much to the dismay or amusement of the educated crowd...:lol: and before you ask, no she did not earn the ribbons)

Mozart
Mar. 9, 2010, 02:24 PM
In Germany, a doctor's wife is called "Frau Doktor". (Perhaps that is outdated though)

How's that for making use of a title? Would Klimke's wife get announced as Frau Doktor Klimke?

Good thing nobody announces that I am a lawyer. Hard enough to remember dressage tests without getting things thrown at you.

Alagirl
Mar. 9, 2010, 02:29 PM
In Germany, a doctor's wife is called "Frau Doktor". (Perhaps that is outdated though)

How's that for making use of a title? Would Klimke's wife get announced as Frau Doktor Klimke?

Good thing nobody announces that I am a lawyer. Hard enough to remember dressage tests without getting things thrown at you.


LOL, I think it's still in use for those who crave the attention but could not achieve it by their own sweat and tears. :lol:

atr
Mar. 9, 2010, 03:35 PM
LOL, Not too long ago I read a 'Dear Abby' a lady was in a total huff because she was no longer addressed as Mrs John Doe after her husband's passing.


But this is correct. Once her husband is deceased, she isn't Mrs John Doe any more, she is Mrs Mary Doe.

It's a useful code to know.

Alagirl
Mar. 9, 2010, 03:42 PM
But this is correct. Once her husband is deceased, she isn't Mrs John Doe any more, she is Mrs Mary Doe.

It's a useful code to know.

Interesting, But I am not Mrs Mr Alaman, I am Mrs Alagirl now, not waiting for him to kick the bucket, I guess that is old school thinking on this lady's side, then again I did not grow up defining myself by the man on my side.

Peggy
Mar. 9, 2010, 03:46 PM
The Doctor thing can be useful when visiting people in the hospital. According to my dad if you breeze by the nurse's station looking like you know what you're doing and say "Dr. X here to see Mr Y" you will generally sail on past.

TheJenners
Mar. 9, 2010, 04:06 PM
I never put my title (PhD) on entries either...it never occurred to me. The only time I really use is it when someone asks, "Is it Ms or Mrs" and then I say, "Neither - it's Dr."


LOL, I've never understood people who use titles other than in their professions.


When I am in a military area - especially in civilian clothes - if someone calls me Mrs. then I say, "It's Captain". Otherwise I think it's very pretentious.

These sum up my feelings too. The ONLY time I correct someone is WHEN I'm in uniform. Then I tell them the "J." on my name tag is the Latin/Greek/German abbreviation for "Officer." Works on amorous drunks and pissed civilians ;). At shows, etc, not a chance, even though I put forth the sweat, blood and tears to earn it. Yanno how whenever anyone hears you have horses, you hear about how a horse "kicked them off" or other ridiculousness? Yeah, sometimes I get sick of hearing "one time this [censored] cop..." stories.



He does show in uniform, which I think looks pretty cool. When we lived in Jacksonville, FL (a big military community), noone there ever put their military title on their paperwork...

How COOL!! This works in dressage; there's no way I could get my BF to go to a rodeo in his uni. :lol: at the thought!! And while I'm on the subject, he NEVER refers to himself by his military title for ANYTHING once he's outta uni either.

poltroon
Mar. 9, 2010, 04:15 PM
I think we're in the midst - or perhaps the end of - a transition from a time when titles were important to a time when they're just not.

BTW, I still giggle reading in the credits "Sir Dr. Stephen T. Colbert, DFA." Fits the character perfectly.

Enderle
Mar. 9, 2010, 04:19 PM
In Germany, a doctor's wife is called "Frau Doktor". (Perhaps that is outdated though)

How's that for making use of a title? Would Klimke's wife get announced as Frau Doktor Klimke?
No, she wouldn't. It was of course never used officially, but just a polite salutation for the country doctors wife. Used only for wifes of medical doctors, mostly in rural areas until 20 ys ago. ;-)

On topic: I never use my title (Dr.) outside of my profession.

WishIWereRiding
Mar. 9, 2010, 04:29 PM
Maybe it's a generational thing? I've noticed in the eventing world, the competitors who are listed as "Dr. or , MD" tend to be older, like 50s+, whereas my geneneration (30s) usually doesn't list it at all. I think in the slightly older generation being a doctor really defined who they are, in all aspects of life. I think my generation tends to have a more balanced life, and so we don't see ourselves as only a doctor.

Alagirl
Mar. 9, 2010, 05:28 PM
How COOL!! This works in dressage; there's no way I could get my BF to go to a rodeo in his uni. :lol: at the thought!! And while I'm on the subject, he NEVER refers to himself by his military title for ANYTHING once he's outta uni either.

Would that be Dress or fatigues? :)

TheJenners
Mar. 9, 2010, 05:39 PM
Would that be Dress or fatigues? :)
As expensive as his dress blues are...no chance it even comes NEAR a horse!!

Alagirl
Mar. 9, 2010, 05:55 PM
As expensive as his dress blues are...no chance it even comes NEAR a horse!!

I was trying to picture a rodeo rider in Dress Blues! :lol:
But for english, it would be STUNNING! :yes: (looks so much better than the last guy I saw in Uniform...field gray is just plain UGLY, sorry Bundeswehr!)

TheJenners
Mar. 9, 2010, 06:04 PM
I was trying to picture a rodeo rider in Dress Blues! :lol:
But for english, it would be STUNNING! :yes: (looks so much better than the last guy I saw in Uniform...field gray is just plain UGLY, sorry Bundeswehr!)
Oh I agree. But there's no chance of him ever getting in an English saddle again; none! He had a trainer way back when force his junior trainers/working students/whatever they are called in the cow horse world to start cutting horses in English saddles...he did it, but I'm sure he hated every second of it!! :yes::yes::yes:

Tiki
Mar. 9, 2010, 06:38 PM
The Doctor thing can be useful when visiting people in the hospital. According to my dad if you breeze by the nurse's station looking like you know what you're doing and say "Dr. X here to see Mr Y" you will generally sail on past. Well, if you breeze by the nurse's station looking like you know what you're doing, you don't even have to say a word. If you look like you belong there, everyone just assumes you do. No need to even mention a title.

AHorseoffCourse
Mar. 10, 2010, 11:20 AM
IMO a lot of blood sweat and tears were put into that DVM and MD and they deserve to be recognized for that.

I would never dream of going up to a vet who wasn't working and asking him to look at my horse. It's just unprofessional.

What's wrong with society recognizing an accomplishment of a earned title?

BTW - this EXACT same topic came up at Tevis when a group of people were looking at the starters sheet with the lsit of people who were entered. A lot of MD's and DVM's were listed after people's names and every one thought it was "pretentious". I didn't - I thought "good for them!" We are all out of the same course competing on the same day it is kinda exciting to realize the people around you are the ingnoramouses we all loook at sound like at mile 80 of the 100 mile ride and just perhaps, we ARE intellegent people that could carry on a decent conversation the day after the race.... LOL>

ise@ssl
Mar. 10, 2010, 11:34 AM
So all the people without DVM behind their name were NOT capable of carrying on an intelligent conversation? That's just hooey!

It also indicates that people who have other degress or no degrees who are extremely successful in their lives and good people are not quite up to the caliber of those with Doctoral degrees. AGAIN A BIG HOOEY.

Grataan
Mar. 10, 2010, 11:41 AM
it has never stressed me out.

It doesn't stress me out as you imply; however, I have lost entry fees which were already paid because I missed out on my ride time/class due to a client's horse getting torn up on the trailer and their insistance that I deal with it then and there. The client refused the on call vet because of a past experience. The on call vet knew I was there too and requested that I deal with it and offered his truck/supplies. It's fortunate that your clients respect your time on your 'off' hours. Obviously, there was no need to list Dr on my entries. Enough people already knew ;)

Honestly at a horse show, I'm more proud of my accomplishments as a rider/trainer. That is how I started in life. Going to vet school came long after I started riding. It's not my DVM that is being assessed when I go down the centerline; so I see no need to announce it to everyone there.

This is when you learn to say no. I am not on call, I have no supplies, I am not licensed to practice in this state, if Dr X is unable to care for your horse call the alternate vet, I have been up for twenty hours, let me call the on-call vet from our practice etc etc etc.

I worked long and hard to be called Dr Grataan (and I do have an MS, it gives me giggles to think of being called Mistress Grataan lol) and I wish to be addressed accordingly.

Sometimes I leave it off of entries, sometimes I don't.

I do think that it is absolutely hilarious when people are "Dr Joe Buttface, AS, MS, MD, PhD" We used to call those types of professors "Doctor Doctor Doctor Buttface" behind their backs.

blackhorse6
Mar. 10, 2010, 12:52 PM
LOL, I think it's still in use for those who crave the attention but could not achieve it by their own sweat and tears. :lol:

Honey, until you have gone through premed, med school, residency and a fellowship, don't you dare say the the good doctor's wife hasn't worked their butts off and believe me, there "are" sweat and tears!! I'd never do it again!!!:eek:

exvet
Mar. 10, 2010, 02:50 PM
This is when you learn to say no. I am not on call, I have no supplies, I am not licensed to practice in this state, if Dr X is unable to care for your horse call the alternate vet, I have been up for twenty hours, let me call the on-call vet from our practice etc etc etc.

I did say, no, initially. It wasn't until the vet oncall asked me to step in for him because the situation wasn't going well; so, after a colleague's request, I stopped schooling, untacked my horse and attended to the "emergency" at hand. I have simply found it easier to go to shows and not have to dodge the questions/requests or say "no" because I'm NOT hanging out my shingle. I am there to be recognized as a rider/trainer/breeder not a vet.

I worked hard too to get my degree and FWIW (which again to me really shouldn't amount to a hill of beans in terms of showing horses) I too have a masters, a bachelors and so on......but I don't really feel the need to "have it out there" in the horse show venue. Either I can ride or not, train or not, produce or not..............and my DVM, MBA, BS and the rest of the alphabet soup don't have anything to do with it.

If others need that recognition, well, so-be-it. I don't, not in that venue. The chapters, articles, books, etc with my name and title is enough. Having employees address me as Dr. is enough. Having clients address me as Dr. is enough. I guess unlike some others, I really like to take that hat off <completely> and I feel no less of a person or naked or incapable with out it ;) The degrees don't define me. I am who I am, which just happens to be a wee bit more educated of a redneck than most.

Now, on second thought, if you were to tell me that riding down the centerline with the alphabet soup behind my name will garner more points especially at FEI, perhaps, I should try it next time; but, honestly my horse's pirouettes I bet will be about the same.......... 7 to the left and 6 to the right ;) So far I haven't had to show him my diploma(s) to climb aboard :D

mickeydoodle
Mar. 10, 2010, 10:36 PM
Well, I have been through undergrad, medical school, residency (7 years) and fellowship, followed by years as an academic surgeon (0rthopaedic sub-speciality) I absolutely do not put my titles on my dressage show entries. It boggles my mind when others - including chiroparactors, dentists, etc. do.

RHdobes563
Mar. 10, 2010, 10:55 PM
Frankly, I just prefer "Ma'am".

"God", apparently, is taken.

* SNORT * :lol: :lol: :lol:

quietann
Mar. 11, 2010, 09:43 AM
The Doctor thing can be useful when visiting people in the hospital. According to my dad if you breeze by the nurse's station looking like you know what you're doing and say "Dr. X here to see Mr Y" you will generally sail on past.

Agreed on that. (I have a PhD in psychology, also an MA in psychology and an MS in biostatistics, and the last is the only one I still use.) The "Doctor" title is useful when a little status helps grease one's way through the system; I use it on airplane reservations, mostly because I look like a rumpled 30 year old and I am nearly 46... When they see the "Dr" it helps them get past the flannel shirt and jeans :lol:

I wouldn't use it on a horse show en try, though, because I wouldn't want anyone thinking I am an MD or a vet! (Just like when people find out I have a PhD in psych, I quickly explain that I am not a therapist, and my degree was a research degree... Trust me, you don't want *me* trying to help you solve your problems with your spouse/kids/dog/whatever :lol:

mvp
Mar. 11, 2010, 10:54 AM
I treat titles as matters of fact. Once you have a degree that changes your title, you use it.

I think the whole thing became a big deal when feminists of late yester-century introduced Ms. as a term between Miss and Mrs.-- a term that defined a woman by her marital status and her relationship to a particular man. I think they saw either terms as offensive (because it announced the woman's status as single or "taken" in a way that the man's Mr. never did), or because the married woman could only be defined in terms of her relationship to a guy.

Do the doctorated set need to worry about any of that? I don't think so.

I can see putting Dr. on a form that asks for a title. But asking an announcer to use the title? I really hope not. Or it perhaps I can provide great amusement to on-lookers as I stand my short but PhD-a$$ up on the bumper of my old diesel truck in order to climb aboard my horse. It's a nice leveling device.

FWIW, my grandmother still wanted to be Mrs. Dude even after her man passed. She's nobody's pushover. But I think it's nice that she announces to the world that she still feels close to her dead husband. Staying married "till death do us part" is a real accomplishment, IMO.

Foxtrot's
Mar. 11, 2010, 03:02 PM
In the UK, when you become a Doctor you are "Dr.", but when you become a surgeon, you revert to "Mr." - go figure.

Very often titled immigrants drop their title when they come to their new country - I'm cool with that.

It seems more modest not to brag up a person's educatioinal credentials outside their sphere of employment. Perhaps they can keep it on their business cards and hand them out if asked.

CosMonster
Mar. 11, 2010, 04:06 PM
I think I'm going to get one of those mail order PhDs like a certain somewhat notorious hoof guru so that I can be Dr. CosMonster at shows. I like the sound of that. :winkgrin:

SillyHorse
Mar. 11, 2010, 08:04 PM
I like the sound of it too. In fact, I'm going to name my next horse Dr. CosMonster!

Absolut Equestrian
Mar. 11, 2010, 08:15 PM
I was recently invited out foxhunting. At the beginning of the meet the master introduced me (complete with my educational credentials) to the field. I was actually a bit embarrassed until one of the members quipped back "So she's got a lot of letters behind her name, but that's what it takes to put up with _____ (my host for the day)"

I found the comment hilarious and completely appropriate. Nobody there (or at any equine event for that matter) cared what my title was. Their only concern was that I could ride my horse and get along with others. :winkgrin:

horsegalriding
Mar. 11, 2010, 09:30 PM
I must disagree about the title used by widows. If you were Mrs John Doe while your husband was alive, you are still Mrs John Doe after he dies (unless you remarry).

CosMonster
Mar. 11, 2010, 10:44 PM
I like the sound of it too. In fact, I'm going to name my next horse Dr. CosMonster!

:lol: Hey now, the CosMonster I took the name from might take issue with that. He's been needing a show name, and that way I could save my money... :lol:

caddym
Mar. 12, 2010, 06:21 AM
I don't use mine (MD) but I TRIED to get it on my drivers license as I heard it might help me out with speeding tickets - and they didn't put it on

FYI, my personal record is 3 speeding tickets in one day

Foxtrot's
Mar. 12, 2010, 01:16 PM
Horsegal - definitely where I come from, Mrs john Doe becomes Mrs Mary Doe if her husband dies. Can't speak for the more casual American manners/etiquette.

As I grew up we were taught in Pony Club by a lot of WW11 ex-veterans and they were always called Major So-and-so or Colonel Whatever - even our parents called them that. But now the younger ones seem to like to be addressed without a title. First names seem to prevail almost everywhere.

piggiponiis
Mar. 12, 2010, 01:54 PM
I love this thread!!! I am totally going by Mrs. DH from now on. That would be a laugh riot. I am such a smart mouthed ill-behaved wife - it would be POETIC!! I'm in!!

Alagirl
Mar. 12, 2010, 02:04 PM
Horsegal - definitely where I come from, Mrs john Doe becomes Mrs Mary Doe if her husband dies. Can't speak for the more casual American manners/etiquette.

As I grew up we were taught in Pony Club by a lot of WW11 ex-veterans and they were always called Major So-and-so or Colonel Whatever - even our parents called them that. But now the younger ones seem to like to be addressed without a title. First names seem to prevail almost everywhere.

HOLY HORSEPOOP...

I missed 9 wars...:lol::lol::lol::lol:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 12, 2010, 02:16 PM
Sometimes I forget and I say, "PI" = for Principal Investigator, which means the head of the lab, the person who writes for grant money. Then everyone thinks you spend your time looking to see if Mrs X is really sleeping with Mr Y so that Mr X can get a divorce. Probably not helpful when going down center line, especially if any of the judges have been naughty.

Cielo Azure
Mar. 12, 2010, 02:25 PM
One of the things i like about dressage is the traditions that date back...forever.

As such, I like it when traditions are honored, encouraged and continued -as long as those traditions do not involve bigotry, harm or sexism.

I see the use of titles in dressage as part of the military tradition that often gets lost in our goals for scores, self-fulfillment and community. Dressage evolved to meet the needs of the military rider and horse and the military itself. When you read the old books, etc, titles (for just about everyone) were extensively used. So, I guess I view using formal titles as a salute to those traditions, which are so often forgotten. I hope that people continue to use titles, when appropriate in the dressage arena. Frankly, I think competitive dressage has lost many of the wonderful traditions of yesteryear, those traditions often remind us of the reasons for dressage. But I am a sucker for history.

Furthermore, the use of titles (where it be Ms, Mrs, Miss, Mr, Dr, Esq, Prof, Col, first lieutenant, second lieutenant, officer, etc.) allows people to choose how to define themselves or not. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't even find it elitist. We all like to be recognized for our accomplishments and/or for who we are. Frankly, I find it incredibly offensive when a telemarketer or someone I don't know calls me up and assumes a first name basis. I sometimes like a little distance to someone I don't know and a title (even Mr or Ms) can give that.

I use titles when there is a box to check. I don't use them when there isn't. For instance, if my memory serves me correctly, the USEF and USDF online membership applications do include title boxes, so I check them. My local schooling show does not, so I don't write them down.

Alagirl
Mar. 12, 2010, 02:25 PM
Sometimes I forget and I say, "PI" = for Principal Investigator, which means the head of the lab, the person who writes for grant money. Then everyone thinks you spend your time looking to see if Mrs X is really sleeping with Mr Y so that Mr X can get a divorce. Probably not helpful when going down center line, especially if any of the judges have been naughty.

:lol:ROFLMAO!!!!!:lol:

MaybeMorgan
Mar. 12, 2010, 02:29 PM
Oh is this the count the PhDs thread? Count me in the science group. It is earned-and I was the first in my family to graduate from college. I use the title at times. To assume it's pretentious may also say that you think it has no value as an accomplishment. Better to judge pretentiousness on a case-by-case basis.

Cielo Azure
Mar. 12, 2010, 02:32 PM
Oh is this the count the PhDs thread? Count me in the science group. It is earned-and I was the first in my family to graduate from college. I use the title at times. To assume it's pretentious may also say that you think it has no value as an accomplishment. Better to judge pretentiousness on a case-by-case basis.

AGREE!!!

Cowgirl
Mar. 12, 2010, 05:21 PM
I don't use mine (MD) but I TRIED to get it on my drivers license as I heard it might help me out with speeding tickets - and they didn't put it on

FYI, my personal record is 3 speeding tickets in one day


Being a lawyer doesn't help with speeding tickets either--in fact, I think it only serves to increase your fine!

TheJenners
Mar. 12, 2010, 05:59 PM
I don't use mine (MD) but I TRIED to get it on my drivers license as I heard it might help me out with speeding tickets - and they didn't put it on

FYI, my personal record is 3 speeding tickets in one day
Impressive. However, no, it wouldn't, we only like nurses ;).

Alagirl
Mar. 12, 2010, 06:24 PM
Oh is this the count the PhDs thread? Count me in the science group. It is earned-and I was the first in my family to graduate from college. I use the title at times. To assume it's pretentious may also say that you think it has no value as an accomplishment. Better to judge pretentiousness on a case-by-case basis.


I know you guys earned it, but in my experience, those who insist on their title outside their area of expertise need the recognition to stroke their ego.

Met enough to know that they, too put their breeches on one leg at a time! :lol:

Passage2
Mar. 12, 2010, 06:32 PM
It always makes me gag when I see a show entry listed as "Dr."
I get a cringe feeling and I'm embarrassed for the person who feels they need to be validated by this tittle. I also try to watch the test and think to myself this better be good.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 12, 2010, 06:49 PM
I think if a PhD puts it on the entry, it translates to, "For all my years of education, my salary is not in any way commensurate with my training, so I can't afford lots of lessons or a fancy trained horse, and my girth is put together with duct tape, so please be far more generous with me than with the emergency room MD who works 3 days a week and pulls in $500,000 and who has a professional training her horses and a groomer as well..."

Geneva
Mar. 12, 2010, 06:59 PM
It doesn't really bother me when people use them as long as they don't make a big fuss about it. Unless it's an HONORARY doctorate. And then, there are no words...

"Hon, that was just a fake PhD they gave you, you're not really a doctor of anything!"

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 12, 2010, 07:04 PM
Hey, it works for Stephen Colbert!

Silver~Image~Farm
Mar. 12, 2010, 07:18 PM
It always makes me gag when I see a show entry listed as "Dr."
I get a cringe feeling and I'm embarrassed for the person who feels they need to be validated by this tittle. I also try to watch the test and think to myself this better be good.

YUP, AGREE TOTALLY........:cool:

Alagirl
Mar. 12, 2010, 07:28 PM
I think if a PhD puts it on the entry, it translates to, "For all my years of education, my salary is not in any way commensurate with my training, so I can't afford lots of lessons or a fancy trained horse, and my girth is put together with duct tape, so please be far more generous with me than with the emergency room MD who works 3 days a week and pulls in $500,000 and who has a professional training her horses and a groomer as well..."

Does this translate to "I groom for food"??

MaybeMorgan
Mar. 12, 2010, 08:44 PM
I think if a PhD puts it on the entry, it translates to, "For all my years of education, my salary is not in any way commensurate with my training, so I can't afford lots of lessons or a fancy trained horse, and my girth is put together with duct tape, so please be far more generous with me than with the emergency room MD who works 3 days a week and pulls in $500,000 and who has a professional training her horses and a groomer as well..."

EXACTLY!!!!! :yes::)

Ajierene
Mar. 12, 2010, 09:12 PM
When I was in high school, there were two English teachers that had their doctorates and they taught honors English. During parent/teacher nights, parent would almost invariably call these men 'Mr.' instead of 'Dr.'

The one would just smile and move on with the discussions. The other one would always correct the parent.

I asked the first one day why he did not correct the parents. He replied that it did not matter to him and he understood that parents do not think 'Dr.' when they think of a teacher. I asked about the other teacher. The first kind of gave a smile and stated that he supposed the other teacher got his degree and it was well within his rights to correct parents.

I got the impression, both from the first teacher and from my own experience with the second teacher, that he did it because his ego needed to be stroked. Maybe his parents did not support him enough...they always wanted him to be a doctor and he became 'just' an English teacher.

That's the general impression I get from anyone that uses such titles in areas where it is not appropriate - this includes civilian and military.

Peggy
Mar. 12, 2010, 10:56 PM
A friend used to put the DVM and maybe the Dr on entry forms b/c she was trying to write the horses off as a business expense (advertising). She used to joke that her "advertising" budget was larger than her drugs and meds expenditure.

mickeydoodle
Mar. 12, 2010, 11:07 PM
ok, after looking at all the responses, I vow never to put my degree nor any other accomplishment on any horse related form

Pat Thrasher
Mar. 12, 2010, 11:36 PM
Wow. I never even thought of listing a title (other than perhaps Dowager Duchess) on an entry form.

The college I went to was soooo snooty about doctorates that *everyone* was addressed as Mr. or Ms. -- or by first name if preferred. After all, didn't everyone have a doctorate? I mean, really....

The way I learned was very simple: in a setting where your particular credentials were part of your identity, you used your credentials. So, at an AMA convention, an M.D. would use the title. At a horse show, no. Nor at a PTA meeting. If a veterinarian is at a horse show as a vet, then yes. Otherwise, no. Obviously, a veterinarian on call does not show a horse!

The Mrs. John Smith thing... there really are rules about that. But they hail from the Victorian era and no one knows them any more.

For the very traditional: Miss Mary Jones marries John Smith, and becomes Mrs. John Smith. She is Mrs. John Smith for the rest of her life UNLESS she divorces him FOR CAUSE, in which case, as the aggrieved party, she becomes Mrs. Jones Smith. Don't ask me why, that's just the rule.

If they just sorta divorce, no fault, then she does well to either revert to Mary Jones, or become plain Ms. Mary Smith to avoid confusion when she signs the kids' excuse notes to the school.

Just because ol' John dies doesn't mean her name changes. She is still Mrs. John Smith. Unless, of course, she wants to be called something else. Or marries someone else, or decides her name is really Shanta Ravigari. Hmmmm, Victorian Age runs smack up against the 21st century.

Truth is, the best way to settle this is to call people what they want to be called, and if you have an opinion about it concerning their egos, marriages, auras, or whatever, well, keep it behind your teeth. :D

exvet
Mar. 13, 2010, 12:05 AM
Obviously, a veterinarian on call does not show a horse!

Not so obvious. We have a veterinarian in this area who is often on call for the show and has shown her horse more than once for the very same show.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 13, 2010, 01:14 AM
A friend and colleague of mine is married to a very successful lawyer whose passionate hobby is conducting (an orchestra). He would make a very substantial donation to the city orchestra, and in return he conducted them for a private performance. Because my colleague worked in the hospital, many of her colleagues were MDs as well as PhDs. After the performance, there was a reception, and I was talking with my friend as well as one of her colleagues (an MD), when the MD's father came up to us. He put out his hand and said to me, "I'm Dr. MD." Which struck me as very pompous, because, after all, this was a symphony performance, and it's not as if he had come up and said, "I'm the flautist." We were just all in the audience, listening, for which we needed no qualifications. So, being the smartass that I am, I responded, "Oh - are you a real doctor, or just an MD?" He was very taken aback, and then I added, "Oh, I'm sorry - you didn't have the creativity to get into graduate school, did you?"

His son, also an MD, thought it was hysterical, but apparently Dad lacked a sense of humor.

I can add that for all my years of education, I can still ride pretty crappy.

Alagirl
Mar. 13, 2010, 01:18 AM
Obviously, a veterinarian on call does not show a horse!

No so obvious. We have a veterinarian in this area who is often on call for the show and has shown her horse more than once for the very same show.

Well, chances you are needed right now are slim, and even then you can get off the horse and walk over...

Alagirl
Mar. 13, 2010, 01:21 AM
A friend and colleague of mine is married to a very successful lawyer whose passionate hobby is conducting (an orchestra). He would make a very substantial donation to the city orchestra, and in return he conducted them for a private performance. Because my colleague worked in the hospital, many of her colleagues were MDs as well as PhDs. After the performance, there was a reception, and I was talking with my friend as well as one of her colleagues (an MD), when the MD's father came up to us. He put out his hand and said to me, "I'm Dr. MD." Which struck me as very pompous, because, after all, this was a symphony performance, and it's not as if he had come up and said, "I'm the flautist." We were just all in the audience, listening, for which we needed no qualifications. So, being the smartass that I am, I responded, "Oh - are you a real doctor, or just an MD?" He was very taken aback, and then I added, "Oh, I'm sorry - you didn't have the creativity to get into graduate school, did you?"

His son, also an MD, thought it was hysterical, but apparently Dad lacked a sense of humor.

I can add that for all my years of education, I can still ride pretty crappy.


That Dr convention is seriously the stuff for parody (Spies like us, with Dan Akroyd and Chevy Chase)

TSWJB
Mar. 13, 2010, 02:11 AM
It was once said: "A Ph.D. is like silk underwear. Show it off too much and it cheapens the effect."
very funny!

TSWJB
Mar. 13, 2010, 02:14 AM
Good thing nobody announces that I am a lawyer. Hard enough to remember dressage tests without getting things thrown at you.
you guys are making me laugh too much!

TSWJB
Mar. 13, 2010, 02:19 AM
Well, if you breeze by the nurse's station looking like you know what you're doing, you don't even have to say a word. If you look like you belong there, everyone just assumes you do. No need to even mention a title.
well this is true! my boyfriend was in the hospital for quite some time last fall. i had to work and i wanted to keep my horse going so i would visit long after visiting hours were over. the doors would be locked but i waited for some dr or nurse to come out and came right in. local hospital, not high security. anyway i would walk in and up to the floor like i worked there and no one stopped me.

ise@ssl
Mar. 13, 2010, 09:41 AM
I find it a bit offensive when people with Doctoral degrees constantly talk about HOW HARD THEY WORKED. It certainly implies that people without one haven't worked hard for the degrees they have or the jobs they've held or the work they have done. That's really the problem I have with this title thing. It's the implication which really doesn't mirror reality.

If you are competing in any sport - who cares about what you do in your private life or how long you went to school. It's in you bio - shouldn't be on the entry form.

exvet
Mar. 13, 2010, 09:53 AM
I find it a bit offensive when people with Doctoral degrees constantly talk about HOW HARD THEY WORKED. It certainly implies that people without one haven't worked hard for the degrees they have or the jobs they've held or the work they have done. That's really the problem I have with this title thing. It's the implication which really doesn't mirror reality.

If you are competing in any sport - who cares about what you do in your private life or how long you went to school. It's in you bio - shouldn't be on the entry form.

Agreed. The hardest working individual I have ever known was my grandfather who never went past the sixth grade because he had to make sure the dairy continued to operate to support the family.

At a horse show the only "hard work" I wish to have recognized and hopefully in a positive light is my time in the saddle.

Silver~Image~Farm
Mar. 13, 2010, 11:32 AM
I think the response to the OPs' question is obvious......

EGO and NEED for RECOGNITION.....

Much like the responses on this thread....look who responded and how.......it says it all.......:yes:......

Ironic which folks felt compelled to publicly announce their "credentials"....many of which were totally irrelevant when considering "dressage competition"........:winkgrin:

exvet
Mar. 13, 2010, 12:19 PM
Ironic which folks felt compelled to publicly announce their "credentials"....many of which were totally irrelevant when considering "dressage competition"........

Well obviously I'm guilty for announcing some of my credentials.....don't intend to apologize for it. I still do not ever put them on horse show entries for the reasons already stated. My credentials are no secret, there are many far more accomplished than I with respect to my chosen profession and my chosen passion. I have no need to hide or flaunt them and I guess in all honestly don't really think the degrees or credentials are all that worth it to flaunt. Not like I'm going to be able to save the world, end world hunger or achieve world peace, all things far more worth flaunting and being respected for.......It's a horse show for crying out loud..........now if I could claim and prove that I'm able to ride just about anything down centerline and make it look good......well then that I just might have to flaunt :winkgrin: but for now I'll just keep dreamin' and ridin'

Peggy
Mar. 13, 2010, 07:00 PM
My favorite show of academic bragging along the lines of DGRH's experience was from the father of one of my students. OK, I'm not even supposed to talk to him about his kid (FERPA anyone?) but he kept pushing and pushing about the issue at hand. He had initiated the conversation by introducing himself as Dr. Whatever, following up with his specialty fairly early in the conversation (before I brought up FERPA, so I'm really not sure what the relevance was) and then managed to work into the conversation that his office was near Cedars-Sinai hospital and then asked me if I'd heard of it. It was a very interesting little game of "Can You Top This" but I was raised in a part of town where one got fairly good at this particular game.

To make this post horse-related I would be afraid that someone might think I had actual medical expertise if I used my title at a horse show and call me over to the ring to look at an injured rider.

spotted mustang
Mar. 13, 2010, 07:27 PM
One of my trainers has a PhD in statistics. He goes by his first name in the barn, but if I were ever to address him or introduce him by "Prefix Lastname" he would be Dr. X.

It's Dr. Klimke, not Mr.


Drs are Drs on their mailing address, their magazine subscription labels, their name that appears in their college alumni fund donation list, any place where there is a little place to check off Mr, Mrs. Ms, or Dr...why not horseshows?
It is an earned title, and I do not think it is egotistical to use it. They aren't Mrs or Mses, they're Drs.

I dunno. I have a PhD in Biology, and I would feel utterly pompous if my Lady's Home Journal came addressed to "Dr. Spotted Mustang"....

spotted mustang
Mar. 13, 2010, 07:30 PM
btw, Master's degrees are just as "earned" as PhDs, but no one puts their show entry as "Spotted Mustang, M.Sc Biology"

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 13, 2010, 08:06 PM
Hmmm....maybe, just for grins, next show, I should list Ted as "Mr. Potato Head, Pre-Law" and myself as DGRH, BS, PhD, Ribbon 'Ho. If there's room.

mitma
Mar. 13, 2010, 08:21 PM
This thread is hilarious!

Well, in true exhibitionist form, I will acknowledge in this forum that I, too, would not put my graduate degree title on any horse show entry form, nor on pretty much anything else in my life, unless it involved, say, renewal of my medical license, obtaining malpractice coverage, you know, the "professional" crap! Hehehehe... being a female, even in this new millenium, I find that patients sometimes won't even address me as "Doctor", even though I do introduce myself to them with that title... and, that brings me to another interesting, perhaps gender bias, in this area... once, a long time ago, I was advised by a very wise, academic, physician (who, btw, I like alot and felt was invaluable to my education) that I should always answer pages with, "hello, this is Dr. X", or particularly, when talking with indiiduals of, now I am going to be sensitive when I say this, "lesser" (at least based on time devoted in education) trained individuals, that I be addressed as Dr. X... basically, what this very bright and well-liked guy said to me was "You have to insist that the nurses call you Doctor!"

Now, almost 20 years following medical school, the femminist in me is still rebelling... I really believe that most people will judge you on your actions, your words, or even what you where each day, but not so much by your title... I have always made a practice introducing myself to all team members in a hospital by my first name, in defiance of my very beloved residency mentor... have I paid a price, who knows, but I really hope my coworkers (nurses, technicians, administrators, etc...) respect and admire me for the actual knowledge and skill I bring to our group effort of caring for patients!

And, even for the occassional patient who address me as "Miss" (do I have a label hanging over my head that says I'm a middle age single woman with too many horses?), it really doesn't bother me... I take care of them the same way I take care of any patient, whether they appear to be nice, respectful, politically similar to me (and Sir Dr. Stephen Colbert), criminal, able to pay their bill, not able to pay their bill, etc...

If you can't you need to be doing something else...

Oh, and, btw, I think Tiki has the best idea... maybe I would like to earn an honorary military title for competition... and, it would pay respect to the historic traditions of dressage!

"General" Mitma

Tiki
Mar. 13, 2010, 08:34 PM
As far as I know, veterinarians in England are called Mr., not Dr.

Alagirl
Mar. 13, 2010, 08:51 PM
As far as I know, veterinarians in England are called Mr., not Dr.

Dunno what England does, but a Doctor is one who has successfully completed his doctorate thingy, it's not lined to medical professions, it's an academic title..

Lemme dig up my newly bought used copy of the Dr James Harriot book...;)

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 13, 2010, 10:05 PM
The reason for British surgeons being called Mr and not Dr is because of the tradition that barbers once formed the surgical profession (or so I have been told).

mitma - I feel your pain. The only time I really insist upon the title is when there is clearly gender bias. For example, when I have undergraduates applying for a student worker position, and respond to my emails with my first name (but they don't do that to my male colleagues). I guess the analagous action at a show would be to label yourself by your highest level achieved (say, where you got at least 60s)? So I would sign in as DGRH, F-2. Oh, and how I would lust for a GP after my name!

If we're going to go military for the purposes of going down centerline, I want to be Brigadier. I don't know, it seems to me it just shouts, "HEY!!! LOOK AT ME!!! (and not at how crappy I am riding)."

mickeydoodle
Mar. 13, 2010, 11:27 PM
My, my, this thread got lots more input than i thought it would. As I mentioned in the original post, i never put my credentials on a show entry form. My patients often ask when/if I show, especially since we will have the WEG in our home town in less than 9 months. They ask very sincerely, (as I am very good at medicine and they think this translates to horse ability) if I will be riding in the WEG itself. I tell them that unfortunately, I am a poor/middlin amatur, not capable of that level of riding. (in fact, my instructor, who is capable at that level, rolls on the floor laughing when I tell him what my patients ask about my riding).

It just amazes me in the dressage show world, how dentists who do not practice, chiropractors, etc put their "Dr" all over everything in the horse world.

Grataan
Mar. 14, 2010, 11:19 AM
Hmmm....maybe, just for grins, next show, I should list Ted as "Mr. Potato Head, Pre-Law" and myself as DGRH, BS, PhD, Ribbon 'Ho. If there's room.
OMG. You could be Doctor Ho!

mvp
Mar. 14, 2010, 11:38 AM
The Geek makes some good points.

First, to all those gloriously released from school, the PhD means diddly. It's like the vaccination record we all needed to get into kindergarten. It's just the piece of paper you need in order to start up another particular mountain. If you non-academics think the Drs. are bragging, know they they aren't advertising much.

Being a PI-- Principal Investigator-- for grant-writing and lab-running purposes, on the other hand, is a bigger deal. Writing NSF (National Science Foundation) grants is a baroque exercise that makes the rich guy's tax return or the process of qualifying for a home loan look like child's play. The grant-writing duties of the scientists also carries the enormous responsibility of paying salaries for many underlings.

I'm not sure people who naively thought breeding fruitflies was fun and would reveal all sorts of natural secrets were adequately warned in grad school about the grant-writing part of the job. By the way, my friends, do you know that the NSF still doesn't have an "Evolutionary Biology" section because the topic is politically untenable?

So, for bragging purposes, I'd sooner wear PI than PhD on my sleeve.

And let's be clear, Geek is not Dr. Ho, but a Drosophila Pimp.

MistyBlue
Mar. 14, 2010, 11:43 AM
Putting "Dr. So and So" on an entry if the person is an MD, DVM,Doc of Psychiatry (they have an MD) etc is proper social etiquette. Has zero to do with wanting recognition...or wanting to show off the hard work, etc. That person's name *is* Dr. So and So.
In the USA the folks that should not use the title Dr. in front of their names despite having a doctorate are doctorates in mathematics, economics, finance, etc. And those with honorary doctorates.
The Dr isn't their proper social title, but they can be verbally addressed as "Mr or Mrs So and So, Doctor of _____."
The doctors of mathematics, economics, etc would be called Dr. So and So if they're in a teaching position...such as in college. Then they have the option of being called Doctor or Professor, but never both together...while at the college. But not outside of the college. Doctors of Psychology have the option of using it in their titles or not if practicing.
Socially speaking.

That being said...not everyone uses etiquette these days anyways. But using the title Dr in a show entry where it doesn't matter if you're a doctor or not is still the correct way to write their name down.

Passage2
Mar. 14, 2010, 12:04 PM
My husband and I often laugh about a funny episode while he was in medical training. He was in the hospital taking care of a really sick lady when in marched and her son and stated, "I'm Dr. Bla Bla and I demand to know what's going on with my mother!" My husband assumed he was talking to another physician and explained that her white count and bands are up and it appears that she is septicemic, anuric, and creatinine is 2.8 , febrile, hypoxic, hypotensive, etc. Dr. Bla Bla had a perplexed and blank look on his face but didn't say a word, so later my husband googled the Dr's name and found out he was a dentist.

spotted mustang
Mar. 14, 2010, 01:56 PM
So, for bragging purposes, I'd sooner wear PI than PhD on my sleeve.


'cept, to be a PI, you first need that insignificant PhD...

spotted mustang
Mar. 14, 2010, 01:58 PM
then, there are those PhDs who sell their souls to TV, which immediately requires them to drop their last names, as in Dr. Phil or Dr. Laura.

Thomas_1
Mar. 14, 2010, 02:02 PM
why put your title on the show entry?

Because in terms of social etiquette, it's correct.

mvp
Mar. 14, 2010, 02:16 PM
You are Dr. not Prof. unless you have that appointment. Lookie there, we don't even call 'em jobs! Lots of denial in academia...

And the well-known VA horsewoman of the H/J persuasion, wife of a TV exec who actually *uses* her Honorary Doctorate? Now that chaps my hide. Very long ago, only academics were given honorary degrees in fields where they had already made significant contributions. This was usually done way late in the guru's career. Nothing about this chick's accomplishments, however large and/or noble, suggests an intellectual accomplishment worthy of a doctorate. I know universities want to reward big contributions with correspondingly big thank yous, but it cheapens their product (the highest degree a University can confer) to make that not about intellectual accomplishment. After all, why go do school if you can buy the goods they're selling some other way?

And in person? I can't imagine someone standing before me introducing themselves as Dr. Whoever. Now that's uppity, unless I were a kid.

ellebeaux
Mar. 14, 2010, 02:38 PM
The Geek makes some good points.

First, to all those gloriously released from school, the PhD means diddly. It's like the vaccination record we all needed to get into kindergarten. It's just the piece of paper you need in order to start up another particular mountain. If you non-academics think the Drs. are bragging, know they they aren't advertising much.

Being a PI-- Principal Investigator-- for grant-writing and lab-running purposes, on the other hand, is a bigger deal. Writing NSF (National Science Foundation) grants is a baroque exercise that makes the rich guy's tax return or the process of qualifying for a home loan look like child's play. The grant-writing duties of the scientists also carries the enormous responsibility of paying salaries for many underlings.

I'm not sure people who naively thought breeding fruitflies was fun and would reveal all sorts of natural secrets were adequately warned in grad school about the grant-writing part of the job. By the way, my friends, do you know that the NSF still doesn't have an "Evolutionary Biology" section because the topic is politically untenable?

So, for bragging purposes, I'd sooner wear PI than PhD on my sleeve.

And let's be clear, Geek is not Dr. Ho, but a Drosophila Pimp.

IMHO, this is not entirely accurate - I've been Principal Investigator on several, non-NSF funded grants with just an M.S.. These were wildlife medicine grants, so they might be more flexible than human medicine ones.

And I happen to think that getting a PhD is a BIG DEAL. But since I'm in the middle of writing my dissertation, my perspective is assuredly biased!

ellebeaux
Mar. 14, 2010, 02:39 PM
Putting "Dr. So and So" on an entry if the person is an MD, DVM,Doc of Psychiatry (they have an MD) etc is proper social etiquette. Has zero to do with wanting recognition...or wanting to show off the hard work, etc. That person's name *is* Dr. So and So.
In the USA the folks that should not use the title Dr. in front of their names despite having a doctorate are doctorates in mathematics, economics, finance, etc. And those with honorary doctorates.
The Dr isn't their proper social title, but they can be verbally addressed as "Mr or Mrs So and So, Doctor of _____."
The doctors of mathematics, economics, etc would be called Dr. So and So if they're in a teaching position...such as in college. Then they have the option of being called Doctor or Professor, but never both together...while at the college. But not outside of the college. Doctors of Psychology have the option of using it in their titles or not if practicing.
Socially speaking.

That being said...not everyone uses etiquette these days anyways. But using the title Dr in a show entry where it doesn't matter if you're a doctor or not is still the correct way to write their name down.

What's your etiquette source for this? Emily Post or Miss Manners?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 14, 2010, 03:03 PM
I can also assure you, when I am writing as PI for both an NIH and an NSF grant with similar deadlines, and sitting on a review panel for one at the same time, I am totally devoid of social etiquette...and neither do I show, so really it is all a moot point for me now!

spotted mustang
Mar. 14, 2010, 03:21 PM
Honorary doctorates annoy me, especially when they are awarded to actors or celebrities. I'm not denying those people's contributions, but it's not like there's a shortage of award opportunities in Hollywood, eh?

So, unless they start giving honorary oscars to scientists, I'd say, keep doctorates to those who actually earned them.

ellebeaux
Mar. 14, 2010, 03:31 PM
Hear! Hear! I'll never forget when my first year biology prof asked the class who had the number one single in America. We told him. Then he asked us about who sang such and such song. We told him. Then he described an experiment and asked us who did it. We couldn't tell him.

He said we should know our scientists as well as we know our rock stars. That the people doing the experiments are just as important, if not more.

This is getting totally non-HR, I know. So I'll just say that I need to get my doctorate done so I can get a job and figure out where I will be living so I can buy a horse again!!!

madoy
Mar. 14, 2010, 03:50 PM
"Frankly, I just prefer "Ma'am".

"God", apparently, is taken."


HAHAHAHAHAHA! Takes a lot to make me laugh out loud, and that one did it, ROFLMAO!!!

MistyBlue
Mar. 14, 2010, 04:28 PM
What's your etiquette source for this? Emily Post or Miss Manners?

Well those two are fun favorites for baby shower and wedding etiquette and how to deal politely with the in laws.
But for professional etiquette and proper social etiquette...well, I need to keep up on it due to boring as hell but necessary for some entertaining for my husband's job. So it would be more of the annually revised and updated stuff like Whitmore, Bucknall, National Protocol Inc, etc.
The funny part is that being up to date on all the national and international title protocol and etiquette is kind of a moot point since the owner of the company my husband works for is the world's biggest stickler for it and is rabid if anyone gets it wrong with any other folks, but the owner constantly gaffes her own title and those in her family to attempt to sound better. But it does keep things interesting at parties...trying to keep up with the Japanese, Chinese, German, Spanish, American, etc titles and their relative rank compared to others *and* keep up with whatever titles certain others are going with that week...then decide if the real ones trump the purchased titles. :lol:
And yep, an academic doctorate isn't considered a social title outside of academia. However, if individuals prefer to use it...it's up to them. It's not illegal. ;)
And if others don't know...it doesn't much matter. But an MD et al is proper in using Doctor as their social title. (same with higher religious doctorates)

Foxtrot's
Mar. 14, 2010, 11:02 PM
Do you not think it is more of a regional thing - back in Jolly Old they are more sticky about formalities, back East in Old US perhaps so, but out west here in Canada, and maybe the US, we are maybe much more informal. I remember being surprized when everybody called their bosses by their first names....

Blugal
Mar. 15, 2010, 12:45 AM
The ultimate "look at me" is Esquire. That is the only title that makes me think the bearer is pretentious!

ellebeaux
Mar. 15, 2010, 01:54 AM
MB - that's good to know that my understanding of academic titles is appropriate.

BG- that's so funny you think that Esquire is pretentious, maybe it's just my age, but I was always taught that was traditional and respectful to address letters to lawyers with Esquire after their names. Maybe it's a regional thing.

hluing
Mar. 15, 2010, 07:41 AM
Wow, I can't belive there are 6 pages to this! I also can't believe anyone would have a problem with someone putting down thier appropriate title, if they are a doctor. Wow.

Cielo Azure
Mar. 15, 2010, 08:05 AM
Putting "Dr. So and So" on an entry if the person is an MD, DVM,Doc of Psychiatry (they have an MD) etc is proper social etiquette. Has zero to do with wanting recognition...or wanting to show off the hard work, etc. That person's name *is* Dr. So and So.
In the USA the folks that should not use the title Dr. in front of their names despite having a doctorate are doctorates in mathematics, economics, finance, etc. And those with honorary doctorates.
The Dr isn't their proper social title, but they can be verbally addressed as "Mr or Mrs So and So, Doctor of _____."
The doctors of mathematics, economics, etc would be called Dr. So and So if they're in a teaching position...such as in college. Then they have the option of being called Doctor or Professor, but never both together...while at the college. But not outside of the college. Doctors of Psychology have the option of using it in their titles or not if practicing.
Socially speaking.

That being said...not everyone uses etiquette these days anyways. But using the title Dr in a show entry where it doesn't matter if you're a doctor or not is still the correct way to write their name down.

Well, Post and Wiki would most definitely disagree with you. If you have to know this stuff down cold for your husband's job, you might want to find some better sources for your information for which you can't site sources. Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_%28title%29

"In the United States, the title "Dr." is commonly used professionally by those who have earned a doctorate-level degree[38][39][40][41], especially in academic settings. In addition, those who have been granted honorary doctorates are entitled to do so, especially in academic settings. The title is also commonly used socially by those holding a doctoral-level degree,[42]"

42 Post (1997). Etiquette. New York: HarperCollins. pp. 306, 307, 335-336.

MistyBlue
Mar. 15, 2010, 09:19 AM
No, I don;t use Wikipedia. That's similar to using a BB for accurate information. ;)
I use sources that are updated annually and used by businesses in many countries. I didn't cite (by copying and pasting) because these are actual books and I wasn't aware that I was required to thumb through them and retype word for word the exact quotes. :winkgrin:
I just use the business texts that come here every year written by the folks who give seminars on the subject and use the protocols that are used in business in the USA, Germany, Japan, China, etc.
Although if you noticed in the quote you cited...it does mention "especially in academic settings" twice for honorary and academic doctorates. :) Harper Collins is just a publisher. They publish stuff, they're not necessarily 100% accurate with current times or facts.
And as I stated above...if someone wants to use Dr in their title for honorary or academic doctorates outside of an academic setting...go for it. It's not illegal and often people don't know and/or care if it's proper or not anyways. The USA in general isn't a big stickler for titles.
Apologies that my posts somehow offended you. :confused:

jgrass
Mar. 15, 2010, 09:59 AM
This is wandering away from the horse appropriateness, but I think the only time I really got pissed off by the title thing was in a job I had where someone would come for a visit and my boss would do introductions like this (names changed to protect the innocent):

"This is Dr. John Jones, and this is Dr. Robert Brown, and this is Dr. William Smith, and this is Dr. David Doe, and this is Judy."

That's **DOCTOR** Judy to you, sport.... grrrr. I think it was the blatant sexism that got me there more than the title thing.

ACP
Mar. 15, 2010, 01:46 PM
My 73 year old hubby has a PhD in Physics, and is a retired Physics Department Chair who still writes and teaches part time, etc. He goes to horse shows with me, sticks his hand out, grins, and says, "Hi, I'm Mr. Alice." He NEVER uses Dr in any social situation unless it is an academic social thing. He says in the academic world, people know and he doesn't have to remind them, and in the real world - his term, not mine - that it doesn't matter. He finds it very snooty to insist on the title outside its area.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 15, 2010, 03:27 PM
The funny thing - at the conferences and meetings and panels I attend, no one uses their titles (it's generally all PhDs). I encourage grad students to call me by my first name, because, in essence, they're future colleagues (my undergrads are young enough to be my kids and so it is a title of respect).

At the barn even the vet gets called by her first name. So why use it at a show or clinic? The only time someone got to use a title at a clinic in my experience was when I went to one given by one of the bereitmeisters (am I spelling that right?) from the SRS.

Heinz 57
Mar. 15, 2010, 06:17 PM
I think it might seem a little less pretentious if we all went around introducing ourselves as Miss/Ms./Mr./Mrs. still. It seems to me that part of the pretentiousness is that you're using a title to introduce yourself when no one else has. You don't see each competitor's name listed on the roster as 'Mrs. Jane Smith, Mr. Bob Jones, Ms. Suzie Anderson, Dr. Robert Johnson', but you DO see 'Jane Smith, Bob Jones, Suzie Anderson, DR. Robert Johnson'.

For reference, I am not a doctor, mistress, general, or PI. Nor do I play one on tv (though I would, for the right price).

Silver~Image~Farm
Mar. 15, 2010, 06:47 PM
My 73 year old hubby has a PhD in Physics, and is a retired Physics Department Chair who still writes and teaches part time, etc. He goes to horse shows with me, sticks his hand out, grins, and says, "Hi, I'm Mr. Alice." He NEVER uses Dr in any social situation unless it is an academic social thing. He says in the academic world, people know and he doesn't have to remind them, and in the real world - his term, not mine - that it doesn't matter. He finds it very snooty to insist on the title outside its area.

:lol:

My husband is an MD and he NEVER "uses" it.....thanks for the great idea about how he should introduce himself at horse shows when he rides along!!!......if you don't mind I think I'll steal your husbands' idea with a slight twist.....I'll let mine say he is "with the Diva" (we call my mare, Riviera, "Riva the Diva")......:winkgrin:

Ghazzu
Mar. 15, 2010, 08:16 PM
In my case, it's because I have Dr. on my USEF membership, since I occasionally serve as a show veterinarian.

Ghazzu
Mar. 15, 2010, 08:31 PM
Obviously, a veterinarian on call does not show a horse!

Not so obvious. We have a veterinarian in this area who is often on call for the show and has shown her horse more than once for the very same show.
______-------
This.
For a number of years I have been the show vet and brought a horse or two.
Bottom line is, I have to be willing to drop everything in terms of my classes and attend an emergency.
Fortunately, the management in these cases is willing to credit me for missed classes.

mickeydoodle
Mar. 15, 2010, 10:55 PM
Well, it is a very long thread indeed. I think i will continue to leave my MD (with very long post-grad credentials and papers, awards, etc) off the show entry. I will leave the "Dr" on the show entry for those who do not actually practice, those who are not MD's or DVM's, etc.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 16, 2010, 02:04 AM
On the other hand...do you put your GMO championships on your CV...?

jeannero
Mar. 16, 2010, 05:57 AM
Impressive. However, no, it wouldn't, we only like nurses ;). I can attest to that ;)

katarine
Mar. 16, 2010, 12:31 PM
OMG when we're using Wikipedia as the Official Source of Anything, we've surely jumped the shark ;)

bort84
Mar. 16, 2010, 01:08 PM
OMG when we're using Wikipedia as the Official Source of Anything, we've surely jumped the shark ;)

Haha, yes...

I have to agree with the posters that are shocked this thread has had so many posts! I think nothing of it and, as others have said, absolutely judge pretentiousness on a case-by-case basis.

I know people who definitely put the Dr. in front of their name because they are pretentious. I know others who put it there because that's just how they are always addressed and it's habit.

I've never really thought about it except with a couple of select clients that were particularly snooty and even said they only did it because they liked the way it sounds.

If you're pretentious, the Dr. title is likely the least of your obnoxious behavior. If you're not, who cares? If you have a right to use the title, use it. I tend to agree that in the U.S. it's more accepted and typical for medical doctors to use their titles outside of work than for PhDs, but it doesn't bother me either way.

mickeydoodle
Mar. 16, 2010, 10:17 PM
On the other hand...do you put your GMO championships on your CV...?

absolutely not, not not!

only publications, major medical awards, consulting, presentations, grants

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 17, 2010, 02:39 AM
Yes, but...J-Lu and I have agreed that the Nerd Herd paper will go on our CVs because it is a peer reviewed pub.

I will add that one year, at the Genetics Society meeting, one of my colleagues and I gave away ribbons at the poster session as a joke (distributed to anyone from an undergrad-only institution, our friends, posters with nice pictures or funny titles). I gave myself an honorable mention, and put that down. People were actually impressed. I did feel it would be too pretentious to give myself a second place ribbon (the only blue ribbon we ordered was given to a withdrawn population biology poster).

Of course, the ribbons were ordered from Hodges...my colleague was very impressed I knew of such a source...