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View Full Version : 23 month KWPN filly-dressage prospect? (be nice please :P)



luvmydutch
Mar. 6, 2010, 06:34 PM
Got some nice pictures of my 23 month old KWPN filly today. I plan to use her for dressage (not sure what level...i'm a dressage enthusiast on a shoestring budget so FEI is most likely not in our sights). What do you think of her confo for dressage? Be nice ... I love this filly like a child :cool:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h312/earth2283/niki034.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h312/earth2283/niki015.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h312/earth2283/niki020.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h312/earth2283/niki018.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h312/earth2283/niki022.jpg

siegi b.
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:00 PM
I'm sure you're going to be quite happy with her - she has some very nice lines to her, great shoulder, good neck and head is set on nicely. The pictures aren't the best as far as being able to judge conformation is concerned, and the only thing that worries me a little is the length and angle of her pasterns, specifically the front. She's going to be quite comfortable, but you're also going to have to be a little careful about not overstressing those already somewhat weak pasterns.

Enjoy her!

SisterToSoreFoot
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:01 PM
She is a lovely horse with a nice sloping shoulder and good neck connection. A nice length of neck for such a young horse as well. She should be suited for dressage, although her long, angled front pasterns are not ideal structurally for longterm soundness. But with good, slow training and management, I'm sure you'll have many years of dressage with this beautiful filly.

ETA: Siegi and I posted at the same time--looks like we also had the same assessment!

egontoast
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:09 PM
I had same thoughts as siegi.

I don't think you should worry too much about the pasterns but just something to watch.

Lovely horse. My young horse looked more like a llama at that age and he got through it fine.:)

luvmydutch
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:10 PM
I know her front pasterns are really her only real worry for me...and I have literally stayed up late at night printing protractors and measuring those angles (that's normal right?? haha). Her front angles are 45 degrees and back angles are 50 degrees when she's standing square...which isn't horrible but it's not ideal either. I plan to take her to breed shows this year also and I hope those pasterns won't keep her from placing!

egontoast
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:19 PM
I hope those pasterns won't keep her from placing!

interesting way to think about it. That would be the last of my worrries.

luvmydutch
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:27 PM
Well obviously they are of a concern in the future as well for soundness...but I don't think they are severely sloped enough to pose her much of an issue based on my calculations and research. I am also thinking that she is not even 2 yet. As she fills out further and her legs gain circumference they may become stronger and less of an issue. And egontoast didn't you say you wouldn't worry about them too much?

LavenderFarm
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:34 PM
Length and slope of pasterns are really key things for me. They are the base of the horse.

ESG
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:34 PM
I think she's lovely, but I do agree that the pasterns should be considered. I wouldn't break her for at least another year, and probably throw her back out for another year after about 60 days under saddle.

I had a lovely SWB/TB with pasterns similar to hers. He wasn't sturdy. :no:

luvmydutch
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:43 PM
I realize that she has long pasterns. What am I supposed to do about it? As I said I have no means or desire to make her my FEI horse...and honestly I am quite happy with her. I would like to add I have seen QUITE a few dressage stallions out there breeding mares with pasterns the same as hers and a few slightly worse. While it CAN indicate potential unsoundness issues...it also gives a lofty, springy, expressive trot (which my filly has). As I've already said quite explicitly...I really love this horse and i can't send her back to her mom to ask for better pasterns. NO horse is perfect...and I happen to think she is quite beautiful!

Calvincrowe
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:51 PM
If you'd said "how is she for a jumper prospect", then I'd worry about the longish pasterns. Dressage? Lower levels? Decent footing? Stop worrying. She's lovely. Great neck connection, nice square package. A touch long in the back, but nothing serious there. As you said, not shooting for the FEI. More importantly, how is her temperament? Good mind? Amateur friendly? Then you've got a winner!

(I love chestnut mares, too:))

siegi b.
Mar. 7, 2010, 09:21 AM
luvmydutch - the fact that your filly is only 23 months old may also mean that she can still grow into those pastern. I wouldn't worry about it for the time being - she is a very nice horse and you're going to have a lot of fun with her.

What's her breeding?

patch work farm
Mar. 7, 2010, 09:52 AM
I sold a filly many years ago that had wwwwaaaaaayyyyyyyy worse pasterns and she was one of the top scoring Hanoverian fillies for several years-don't worry about it for breed shows, they are really more interested in movement. When I sold her, the PPE vet even told the new owners that her paterns were his only concern/issue with her and to go slllllllooooooowly with her training or she could have a suspensory injury-sure enough, they didn't listen and she was out for stall rest for months. Your filly looks much better, but I would make sure your footing is good and you don't go too fast in her training.

Just curious why you clipped her if she isn't quite yet 2? I have to say because of that, she makes my 2 years olds look like yaks but it made me wonder what you are doing with her if clipping was necessary. Most of us (breeders) will tell you to do nothing with them until 2 1/2 and even then, put tack on them and begin to sit on them, maybe some walk, trot but not much else till they are 3. Again, just curious.

Alianna
Mar. 7, 2010, 09:53 AM
She is cute...really pretty build...just as everyone said..watch those front legs. She looks lighter boned for a DW too...must have some TB? I like her though...just give her plenty of growing time and you are going to love her. What a nice color too. What is her actual breeding? I love my DW...she is by Juventus...but a totally different style than yours...mine looks like a smaller version of Juventus...really typey. How is your girls movement? Since you aren't jumping her, I would worry about the front end too much...just keep an eye on it.
I raised my Hanoverian/Trak mare from a foal, and around three years old for no reason she started to toe in...the stress it caused me was immense. I worried so much about that it wasn't even funny. (I event so it WAS a bit more of a worry.) She is now nine years old, slightly toed in still...but the BEST event horse AND Dressage horse I have even owned! I have her fetlocks X-rayed every so often just to check on her, and keep her on Cosequin and the occasional Adequan injection (only on the vein...not the joints) mostly for my own piece of mind. I wouldn't trade her for a perfectly straight legged one...she is the BEST!!!!
They all have SOMETHING that isn't perfect...I always say...I myself would never pass a vet check that we expect these horses to pass...

Alianna
Mar. 7, 2010, 09:57 AM
Oh PS...an afterthought...her weight looks great...watch for OCD and allowing her to become too fat....a lot of people make that mistake. Front pasterns good or bad won't matter too much if she gets OCD that can't be righted. You are doing a great job!!

Oakstable
Mar. 7, 2010, 11:00 AM
I'm curious about the body clip too.

luvmydutch
Mar. 7, 2010, 11:10 AM
Thanks for the encouraging words guys...I couldn't fall asleep last night thinking about those pasterns!! Anyway, re-evaluating her once again...they're really not THAT bad and her movement is spectacular. Her breeding: She is out of an imported KWPN ster sport show jumping mare (ironic eh? hehe) and by the Oldenburg stallion L'andiamo who stands at Cornell university (so filly is KWPN reg. B thus no brand). No thoroughbred blood up close, but some further back. Here's her pedigree:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dominique79

The reason I body clipped her is because her first show is in May, and her coat was sooooooooooooooo long. Last year she was VERY slow to shed...she didn't let it go completely until june or july and with the breed shows coming up, i didn't want to risk her looking like a shaggy mammoth. Weather has warmed up pretty significantly here also so i'm not too worried about her being cold. I haven't begun any saddle training yet...she hasn't even been started with a bit or worn a saddle. She will be bitted next month after having her teeth done. I don't plan on riding her until summer 2011 and at that, i will definitely do so under the watchful eye of trainer...and i think i will also have my vet inspect and x-ray those front legs before riding her. I would never want to hurt this horse...she is my dream horse...and i raised her from a tiny baby. I have all the time in the world to get her going!

butlerfamilyzoo
Mar. 7, 2010, 11:27 AM
I'll agree with the others about the pasterns. However, i had an arab mare that i bought as a yearling who had pasterns that look to be the same length as your mare has. I started her LIGHTLY at 3, kicked her out in the pasture a few months, brought her back for 30 days, kicked her out for the winter, then started cranking on her normally in her 4yr old year. She's still going strong at 18 and i never had an issue, nor has her current owner.

Downside, i bought a GORGEOUS arab mare with the same gosh darn pasterns. Had her seriously FIVE days, went lame for life in the pasture, and all i saw her doing was trotting and boom three legged lame, tore the deep suspenciary ligament i believe it was, man that was years ago, that mare was 13 when i got her. Passed her vet exam with flying colors, vet never mentioned those pasterns. Lady that sold her to me took her back, which was very kind as i boarded and could not afford a pasture puff.

My experience, which does not rival that of other posters here, the angle of these pasterns is not a red flag to me, its the length. And she's young, she could very well grow into them, so dont lose sleep! If she doesnt, go slow, take your time, dont let your trainer push her if you want her to go slow, start her later in life if you can.

Otherwise, i think she's LOVELY and makes any 2yr old i ever had look like garbage. :) Mine always decided to look dorky until they hit 4. I dont think those pasterns will hurt you in the breed ring. You might have a picky judge here and there, but at this age, it comes down to the luck of the moment, the horse that looks the most "complete" at the time with the best movement. Dont expect to take home the blues if she goes butt high or grew a foot long in the back but not the neck the night before the show you know?! :)

She's very pretty.

Dressage Art
Mar. 7, 2010, 04:02 PM
Lovely filly with a good breeding for dressage.

Interestingly, to my eye it's not the angle of the front pasterns that bothers me a little, but the difference between her hind leg pasterns and her front leg pasterns. I think it's better if all 4 pasterns are very similar/same in angle and length. Would love to hear what breed judge’s comments will be about her pasterns.

But may be she will even them up with age?

That said, I'm with Alianna: I personally can't pass a vet jog myself ;) There are plenty of horses who pass vet exam with flying colors and yet on and off lame and vets can't find out why. Yet, some horses have issues on x-rays but still keep on going strong.

luvmydutch
Mar. 7, 2010, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the kind words. It may be the photos that make it appear as though her front angles differ greatly from her back. Her back pasterns are mildly sloping as well...and based on the conformation research i've done (ALOT haha)...you WANT the back pasterns to be SLIGHTLY straighter than the fronts. I have measured her and her fronts are 45 degrees and backs are 50 so she's actually right where she should be in that regard, although she has more slope than is currently desireable (i say currently because a few years ago 45 degrees was considered desireable, but this has changed).

ThreeFigs
Mar. 7, 2010, 04:30 PM
What Seigi B said about growing into the pasterns. My mare still had toothpick pasterns at 3.5 years of age. I was warned not to jump her because of them. However, she did grow into them and they're fine now. AND she loves to jump and holds up fine.

Lovely filly!

egontoast
Mar. 7, 2010, 05:09 PM
I realize that she has long pasterns. What am I supposed to do about it? As I said I have no means or desire to make her my FEI horse...and honestly I am quite happy with her. I would like to add I have seen QUITE a few dressage stallions out there breeding mares with pasterns the same as hers and a few slightly worse. While it CAN indicate potential unsoundness issues...it also gives a lofty, springy, expressive trot (which my filly has). As I've already said quite explicitly...I really love this horse and i can't send her back to her mom to ask for better pasterns. NO horse is perfect...and I happen to think she is quite beautiful!


Um, Ok ,:eek: but you did ask for opinions about conformation so that's what you got. Opinions about conformation. Then you got defensive.:confused:

Good luck with your horse.

AnotherRound
Mar. 7, 2010, 05:17 PM
What Seigi B said about growing into the pasterns. My mare still had toothpick pasterns at 3.5 years of age. I was warned not to jump her because of them. However, she did grow into them and they're fine now. AND she loves to jump and holds up fine.

Lovely filly!

That was my thought about the pasterns, then, trying to get to the end of the thread to say something encouraging about her probably growing into them, I caught that someone else thought that too.

I love her shoulder, neck, back, really lovely and I think you are really going to have a ball with her.

Because of those pasterns, I would, were she mine, reaaaalllllly let her mature before riding her much. I would really want her bones to be fused, as they are the structure for her soft tissue, and I would always take care of riding her in deep surface. I know you are aware and will do well. I would just let her mature well before putting work on her pasterns.

What a pretty color. Looks like a roan, but I bet that's the clip for the winter. Very pretty mare.

STF
Mar. 7, 2010, 05:26 PM
I have found that a lot of the 1.5 to 2.5 yr olds go through the "long pastern" growth stage. My about to turn 2 yr old looks very long too, but was not like that 4 months ago. My now turning 7 yr old Dutch/TB gelding looked VERY long at 3 and we were very worried about it, but now it is fine. Go back and look at the 3 month old photos and see what you see. There is a reason the old educated breeders say 3 days, 3 months and 3 yrs to judge conformation.
;)

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 11:21 AM
I have a video of her at 4 months...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHQRMIpnQuI

Valentina_32926
Mar. 8, 2010, 11:24 AM
I'm sure you're going to be quite happy with her - she has some very nice lines to her, great shoulder, good neck and head is set on nicely. The pictures aren't the best as far as being able to judge conformation is concerned, and the only thing that worries me a little is the length and angle of her pasterns, specifically the front. She's going to be quite comfortable, but you're also going to have to be a little careful about not overstressing those already somewhat weak pasterns.

Enjoy her!

As usual Seigi is right on the money with her comments. :D

esdressage
Mar. 8, 2010, 12:18 PM
She's really lovely. The issue with the pasterns - long and the angle - is all I see, and it's not anything to lose sleep over at this time. It's just something to be aware of and watch their development for future work to safeguard her long-term soundness as much as possible. Certainly the angle leads to nice movement, but you want to be aware of the potential for added stress on the pasterns and greater pressure on the tendons and so on.

Like others have said, she's still growing, so who knows! She really is lovely though, and the video is wonderful. What beautiful movement! :)

sdlbredfan
Mar. 8, 2010, 12:38 PM
I would not worry too much about the pasterns, longer ones like hers make good shock absorbers for the rider. As long as you watch carefully for any sign of strain (and you already stated you plan to bring her along in a conservative fashion anyway), she should be fine.

I would actually worry more about the way she is getting her hind legs so far up under her butt, in pictures 3 and 5. Does she do that normally, or is that the way you positioned her for the pictures? A post-legged stance behind can mean weak suspensories in the hind legs, so I hope she does not always stand that way. She is a pretty filly, and I thought at first she was that rare color of 'claybank' until I realized she is body clipped.

The people who recommended good footing are on the right track. Of course, 'good footing' has different meanings for different people, but IMO for this filly, firmer footing will be better than deep and spongy. Generally the deeper the footing, the greater potential for leg strain. For the sake of comparison, even though I realize this filly is a different breed, many Saddlebreds have long pasterns since it is actually a selected-for breed trait, and most do just fine with the demands of their jobs, some of which are quite demanding (not just saddle seat, but also dressage, jumping including 3 day eventing, CDE and much more). I find it very interesting that her 4 month old video looks a lot like many Saddlebred babies, bouncy off the hocks, good shoulder freedom of movement, neck coming nicely out of the shoulder (as old timey Saddlebreds had, before the current bad trend of ewe necks/swan necks in that breed).

staceyk
Mar. 8, 2010, 12:56 PM
I have a warmblood with straighter angles and that carries problems of its own. I betcha there is a lot of suspension in her trot -- and if you're doing dressage, hopefully the hind end will do it's thing and lighten the load on the front end.

How do her parents look (pastern-wise) and how did they hold up?

She looks lovely to me.

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 01:01 PM
Post legged...hmm I just went through a bunch of photos of her and it looks like she mostly stands with one leg back and one leg forward...so i assume this indicates she is not post legged, but i dunno if it indicates something else. I looked up what a post legged horse looks like and she's definitely not that...i think a couple of those pics just caught her at an awkward moment. It's funny...when i go through her older pics her pasterns don't like quite so long...but they are still a bit long. They looked fine as a baby though. Maybe she will grow out of them? I appreciate all the kind words so much. I have sacrificed riding for a long time to dedicate myself to raising her and i've put alot of time, effort and money into bringing her up correctly...so to have so many say not to worry too much about those pasterns means alot to me :). Definitely will always have them in the back of my head though as i wouldn't want to injure her needlessly. Do you guys think she'd do well at the dressage breed shows? This year will be both of our first times showing :cool:

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 01:04 PM
Staceyk...funnily enough..both of her parents have nice pasterns so I have no idea where these came from!! I guess her dad has sliiiiiightly longish maybe pasterns but nothing like hers. It's a complete mystery to me. Must've had one random relative further back with long pasterns i suppose.

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 01:15 PM
Here's dad:
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/PUBLIC/CUERP/L%27Andiamo1.htm

Here's mom: She's halfway down the page entitled "Chestnut Filly born 4/23/08 L'ANDIAMO X POURQUOI" Momma is a retired international show jumper
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/PUBLIC/CUERP/2008springfoals.htm

staceyk
Mar. 8, 2010, 01:15 PM
My experience with breed shows is limited to one horse, his yearling year, but I watched a LOT of horses that year. It's my impression that movement is king (or queen, in your case). The most points are awarded for movement vs/ conformation, think it is a 60/40 split. My horse is pretty upright with an upright (though nice) shoulder, and he got 7s on his front end, no comments either way. They paid a LOT of attention to the hocks, which also got 7s, but a few cautionary comments were made (e.g., "hocks could be higher.")

A nice sloping/angled shoulder usually comes with more angle to the pastern.

Finally, judges sometimes vary dramatically in their assessment. A friend of mine's mare got low 80s from one judge and high 60s from another, the same weekend. Generally though the mare scored in the 80s. My gelding scored low 70s, which is respectable, but I don't think you get too excited by anything less than mid-seventies for breeding stock.

SisterToSoreFoot
Mar. 8, 2010, 04:40 PM
Her parents are nicely put together--you're right, no pastern issues I can see. Cool that you got her through Cornell's breeding program!

After looking at them, maybe she WILL grow into them. It's funny, because she looks so well put together in every other way--none of the awkwardness of some other young horses at her age. Maybe her awkward growth is manifesting itself in her pasterns, rather than say her neck as it might for other horses at her age.

With solid looking parents like that, I'd be excited to see her develop!

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 05:07 PM
Did anyone take a look at her video at 4 months? Is it just me or do her pasterns look great at 4 months??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHQRMIpnQuI

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 05:09 PM
But I have another vid at 16 months where they look slopey. Oh well...I'll keep an eye on it and what will be will be. She's so gorgeous everywhere else...i can deal with one flaw :)

egontoast
Mar. 8, 2010, 05:40 PM
I guess this is the same horse at 23 months /

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-v32Zu_Bsk&feature=related

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 05:43 PM
Nope that's her at 16 months, and as i said, her pasterns looked slopey then as well

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 05:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0GbbmWe610&feature=related

23 mos.

Cowgirl
Mar. 8, 2010, 05:55 PM
I like her, nice horse. There is no reason she cannot do what you want her to.

FWIW, my mare, at 18 mos old stood like she had diaper rash. It really concerned me that she stood with her hind legs so far apart. She ended up fairly base narrow and just did her first PSG at age 9.

I hate breed shows. Please don't slam me for this, but I see no point to judging a horse's conformation OR movement until they are fully mature...like at age 7 or 8...unless you plan to buy them as a foal (which I did, and mostly on the breeding). So while I think the others are correct in their assessment of her conformation, it might not mean squat in a couple of years.

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 06:06 PM
Agreed on the breed show not really meaning squat...but it's something to do this summer at least while all my friends are off riding in shows ;-)

egontoast
Mar. 8, 2010, 06:08 PM
yes, that's why I said her scores at breed shows at age two would be the least of my worries.

But perhaps the OP is looking to breed or sell soon.

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 06:15 PM
Nope, not looking to do either. just looking for something fun and competitive to do to pass the time until she's three.

luvmydutch
Mar. 8, 2010, 06:38 PM
Anyway, thanks all for your critiques. You both confirmed my fears that her pasterns were long, and helped me feel better that they might not be the end of the world. Much appreciated!

Cowgirl
Mar. 8, 2010, 06:54 PM
Yeah, I have to add that I think breed shows are an excellent way to desensitize a young horse to showing.

Or you take them weekly to a big six week h/j show circuit show and hand walk, with 1,000 horses, and bicyles, motor scooters and baby carriages up the yin yang, as I did. LOL! Still didn't completely desensitize her, but I can't imagine what I would have had if I hadn't done that!!

CatOnLap
Mar. 8, 2010, 06:58 PM
Yeah, I have to add that I think breed shows are an excellent way to desensitize a young horse to showing.

Or you take them weekly to a big six week h/j show circuit show and hand walk, with 1,000 horses, and bicyles, motor scooters and baby carriages up the yin yang, as I did. LOL! Still didn't completely desensitize her, but I can't imagine what I would have had if I hadn't done that!!

I am sure you CAN imagine.
:lol:

(glad you didn't need your hip waders or fishing pole!)

Cowgirl
Mar. 8, 2010, 07:17 PM
Very funny. No I did not need any fishing gear because we were airborne most of the time during our first show!

When are they going to make a saddle with deployable air bags?

Oops...I guess that I am the deployable air bag!!! Duh.