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View Full Version : "...compiling the 8 p.m. medication list for 30 horses is a task in itself."



pwynnnorman
Dec. 19, 2003, 04:18 AM
WHY?!?!?!?!

(This is a "Suspension List" related post.)

I have NOTHING whatsoever against the BNT who stated this (published in COTH a while back). Indeed, so COMMON is this "dilemma" that I'm sure he felt no hesitation in uttering that statement.

BUT can you IMAGINE what someone OUTSIDE the horse industry would think--or, worse still, a PETA person?

That the industry is so far gone on drugs and medications (and, granted, he MAY have been refering to supplements as well, but the fact is that he actually chose to USE the word "medications") demonstrates that winning "at cost" is a truly pervasive (and sad) MINDSET in our industry, not just a somewhat pervasive "practice."

Just wanted to say that.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

pwynnnorman
Dec. 19, 2003, 04:18 AM
WHY?!?!?!?!

(This is a "Suspension List" related post.)

I have NOTHING whatsoever against the BNT who stated this (published in COTH a while back). Indeed, so COMMON is this "dilemma" that I'm sure he felt no hesitation in uttering that statement.

BUT can you IMAGINE what someone OUTSIDE the horse industry would think--or, worse still, a PETA person?

That the industry is so far gone on drugs and medications (and, granted, he MAY have been refering to supplements as well, but the fact is that he actually chose to USE the word "medications") demonstrates that winning "at cost" is a truly pervasive (and sad) MINDSET in our industry, not just a somewhat pervasive "practice."

Just wanted to say that.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

CBoylen
Dec. 19, 2003, 05:23 AM
I don't see that statement as a reflection on winning. I see it as a reflection of a conscientious trainer who takes the time to sit down and decide what each horse requires to be at its optimum best. I actually didn't see the quote, so I have no idea which trainer you are referring to. However, I would much rather hear someone say that their med list took them a long time, rather than hearing them exclaim on their way to the car "give them all x ccs of y and y ccs of Z and six tabs of xyz". That's much quicker, and a heck of a lot less effective and humane.

I would not take a quote like this to mean that each and every one of his horses are loaded up with four different meds. I would assume he's taking the time to figure out which medication, and how much of it, is right for which horse on which particular day, or if they need something at all. For 30 horses that IS quite a task. One has to remember that there are a lot of legal drugs, and they are useful in keeping our horses from experiencing ill effects from the things we ask them to do. These drugs are all made to do different things, and have different effects on different horses, and a trainer has to be educated and thoughtful to use them in the most productive manner.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

MHM
Dec. 19, 2003, 05:35 AM
Good post, C. Boylen. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SydneyS
Dec. 19, 2003, 05:48 AM
C.Boylen - Pardon me for saying so, but you seem to take the loading of meds/supplements with a "business as usual" attitude. It worries me when I see intelligent people take medicating horses as part of the process of showing.

I agree that SOME horses need a bit of help to stay sound and happy. But really, in a barn of 30 horses, how many should be on regular meds?!?!?!?! 25%? Half of them? All of them?!?!?!?

lauriep
Dec. 19, 2003, 05:50 AM
The horse industry is no more "far gone" on drugs and meds than human medicine is. Doctors over prescribe and needlessly prescribe drugs, right off the bat, rather than try alternatives such as diet, exercise, therapy. They are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies just as much as the insurance companies are, and our health is suffering for it.

Animal medicine is often a reflection of human medicine, sometimes for the good, sometimes not.
But vets seem to be falling into this trap, too.

And Chanda, you go girl! I know how much thought RESPONSIBLE trainers give to the meds/supplements program and it takes an enormous amount of time. It is too easy to take a comment out of context and go on the attack.

Laurie

Magnolia
Dec. 19, 2003, 05:52 AM
Medications are everywhere now. I don't think the trainer was insinuating that each horse gets his resperine / bute and whatever altering drug cocktail.

It seems like most people do some form of supplement, be it glucosumine, something for the hooves or a dash of corn oil for the coat! I used to ride at a barn with no show horses, and 90% of the horses got some form of supplement or meds. I think it makes us feel better to give our horse a supplement that might keep them sounder or make their coat softer. I know I feel good when I give my dog his joint supplemend and my cat her cod liver oil! Perhaps the author should have swapped the word supplements with medication.

That said, if you are a trainer and your whole barn is on serious meds, you have some issues!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

MHM
Dec. 19, 2003, 06:34 AM
It's important to remember that the horses who show a lot are really the professional athletes of our sport, and are treated as such.

You might have two guys who play baseball, but one of them plays once a month in the park with his buddies, and the other is a NY Yankee. The average guy may need nothing, or may take an aspirin on the day after he plays, but Derek Jeter (mmm, Derek!) has a whole staff of doctors, chiropractors, physical therapists, massage therapists, etc., to help him perform at peak capacity.

The horses are the same. A horse that shows for 2-3 months straight in Florida will need more maintenance than a horse that shows 2-3 times a year.

SydneyS
Dec. 19, 2003, 07:08 AM
I'm in agreement on the need for a team of specialists for our horses - my horses have theirs. But what drug(s) is Derek taking in addition? Percodan (sp?)? Cocaine? Steriods? Or just OTC pain relievers?

MHM
Dec. 19, 2003, 07:15 AM
Believe me, I wish I had first-hand knowledge with Derek! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

larosa90
Dec. 19, 2003, 07:37 AM
C. Bolen makes an excellent point (when doesn't she?). Lets suppose for a moment that we are talking about a trainer that has a barn full of horses that show three weeks each month (I didn't read the article so I don't know who the original poster is referring to). Let's also suppose that none of them are younger than 6 years old and that they are doing rated divisions, so 3'6" and higher.

Now suppose that each one gets bute the evening before they show. The simple thing to do is to give them all one 1 gram tablet/scoop in their evening dinner. Now for the average 1100-1200 pound TB, that would be right. Now to get the same effect on the 1800 pound warmblood would require more and for the small pony (ok, not showing 3'6", but whatever height regular small ponies do) you would get set down for that much, so it must be half a gram.

In my example, the thoughtful trainer would have quite a lot of prep on their hands and all the horses would be getting would be bute. Now add that some horses get Isox because their feet are too damn small, some get ulcer meds because they have tummy troubles (not necessarily because they show), some get supplements that their owners want them to have and pay big bucks for, and it just gets more complicated from there.

I am not defending anyone who breaks the rules, but rather understand that it can get complicated even when it might seem simple.

khobstetter
Dec. 19, 2003, 08:06 AM
Can someone post a link to the article......

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

MHM
Dec. 19, 2003, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
Can someone post a link to the article......

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't seem to see it in the Archives, but I *believe* it was Peter Pletcher's fairly recent column singing the praises of assistants in the horse business- managers, assistant trainers, etc.

Maybe somebody can locate it?

Ghazzu
Dec. 19, 2003, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by larosa90:
...Lets suppose for a moment that we are talking about a trainer that has a barn full of horses that show three weeks each month ... Let's also suppose that none of them are younger than 6 years old and that they are doing rated divisions, so 3'6" and higher.

Now suppose that each one gets bute the evening before they show. The simple thing to do is to give them all one 1 gram tablet/scoop in their evening dinner. Now for the average 1100-1200 pound TB, that would be right. Now to get the same effect on the 1800 pound warmblood would require more and for the small pony (ok, not showing 3'6", but whatever height regular small ponies do) you would get set down for that much, so it must be half a gram.

In my example, the thoughtful trainer would have quite a lot of prep on their hands and all the horses would be getting would be bute. Now add that some horses get Isox because their feet are too damn small, some get ulcer meds because they have tummy troubles (not necessarily because they show), some get supplements that their owners want them to have and pay big bucks for, and it just gets more complicated from there.

I am not defending anyone who breaks the rules, but rather understand that it can get complicated even when it might seem simple.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


In my faantasy wworld, people would have some clue as to the limitations of flesh and bone, and wouldn't expect an animal to show 3'6" and higher 3 weeks out of 4.

IMHO, a large part of the "problem" is that too many owners and trainers, despite the lip service to "caring" about their horses, nevertheless have unrealistic expectations of what they can comfortably do, or expect that simply because the owners/trainers have some "need" to show extensively, that the horses ought to. They are living creatures, not a piece of athletic equipment.

If you "need" to show 3 weeks a month, get a stable full of horses. Don't expect one or two to be up to it without drugging them.
Can't afford that?
Then scale back. Don't use up more horse than you have.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

ride2hounds
Dec. 19, 2003, 08:40 AM
Somehow, I have a hard time believing that this many horses in any barn needs meds/supps/etc., unless the horse is being pushed too hard physically in the greedy pursuit of points. It isn't the well-being of the horse that is of concern, but whether or not the horse will survive the show season and make it to finals and not be an absolute cripple.

In every barn I've been at or worked at, less than 5% of the horses are on any kind of medicine or supplement. Then again, those horses aren't pounded into the ground either. They are also turned out 8-14 hours a day and don't spend their lives living in 8x8 portable stalls or on the road. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I have an older gelding, now 19, who I foxhunt. Foxhunting is far more grueling than endless (boring) trips around a manicured ring, and I've been hunting this same horse for 12 years. He's not on any supplement or medicine, and still going sound and jumping 3'+ coops in the field. But I also monitor his condition and if I feel he's not in his usually form, I'll go 2nd flight and skip jumping. I don't stick him with a needle or pump him up at breakfast so that I can go 1st flight and jump. At most, when we get back to the barn, I'll give him a gram of bute, and skip the next fixture. Because of my care and attention to HIS needs, when we do head out, he is always fresh, sound and ready to go, without chemical assistance.

As much as I enjoy hunting, my horse's happiness is FAR more important to me than going to every single hunt.

We're a team, and both members of the team need to be in top UNMEDICATED form. In the hunt field, to do otherwise could literally get you killed.

Too bad genuine care and well being of the horse never makes it past the lip service. While they espouse otherwise, it is all too obvious that owners and trainers will sacrifice anything, including their horse's well-being, to win. That is just pathetic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

MHM
Dec. 19, 2003, 08:42 AM
OK, it was Peter Pletcher's Between Rounds column from September 19th, 2003, entitled "Trainers Like Me Wouldn't Be Able To Function Without Our Wonderful Assistants."

The sentence in question is used in the context of, Wow, my assistant has a lot of duties to juggle.

Found it in my magazine, but I don't see it online. Sorry, my linkage skills are, um, minimal.

keljo
Dec. 19, 2003, 08:48 AM
Excellent post Ghazzu! The horse show world has unfortunately devolved to the point that you *have* to show 3 out of those 4 weeks to be a *top* rider, trainer, horse, etc. There's a big difference between supplements for hoof, coat, deworming, and drugs to "keep them going". And no, the stream of drugs is NOT because of vets prescribing drugs for every little problem, but because of the clients who overuse them, or even obtain them 3rd party. There are high level horses at the barn where I ride, and they are NOT on a constant schedule of drugs. They go around sound, willing and calm, because of good husbandry practices and training.

Chef Jade
Dec. 19, 2003, 09:12 AM
I agree with Ghazzu!

I sometimes tag along to shows with BNT's and they always ask me what my horse gets for meds. To see the look on their face when I say "nothing" is shocking! I bet they think I am a country bumpkin!

The over-showing of horses in this counrty is rediculous. It would be one thing if you could replicate the home-life of a horse at shows (i.e. big comfy box stall, turn-out, etc.) IMO - that is the hardest thing on the horse, not the actual jumping and showing part.

Come and visit the horses at: http://www.crosscreek.tk

Duffy
Dec. 19, 2003, 10:02 AM
How's about PREVENTATIVE MEDICINE? I know there are horses that can go their entire lives without supplements of any kind. But, I have to think that the majority are happy to get the extras some of us give them to keep them as happy with their jobs as possible.

Geesh!

Excellent post, CBoylen. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"B***h in training"

Paloma
Dec. 19, 2003, 12:19 PM
Duffy,

I don't know about you, but in order for me to do my job, I don't need Isox, Dex, Reserpine or anything else to effectively do my job, which is actually rather physical itself. Drugs are not "preventative maintenance".

How about simply not overworking the horse to begin with? Oh, wait, that would mean...gasp...not showing every weekend. Heaven forbid we let THAT happen. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

DCN
Dec. 19, 2003, 02:12 PM
What Chanda said . . . and a little more. Administering medications is not all about pumping show horses full of NASAIDS and the tranq-du-jour. My horse lives at a four-horse barn, and is the only one who doesn't need daily medication. The other three are pampered pleasure horses of varying ages and breeds that have never been to a horse show, but each has a chronic problem necessitating medication: one has EPM, one has a respiratory problem and one has Cushings. I just don't think it's fair or reasonable to take a quote from a BNT out of context and assume that he's referring to bute, banamine, robaxin, etc. necessitated by excessive pounding. It's just not that simplistic.

2ndyrgal
Dec. 19, 2003, 02:28 PM
Anybody want to compare a list of drugs that are legal for racehorses vs. drugs that are "show legal"? Most horses race once a week and have far more demanding training schedules, yet if memory serves all I remember feeding was sweet feed, oats, really good hay, a handfull of salt and some red cell. A couple of them got bute AFTER they raced(next day) and a couple raced on Lasix (which still hasnt actually been proven to work, but seems to) Racehorse trainers have the same number of horses in the barn and most of the time, not help at the top of the scale. Yes, there are suspensions,either because of dishonesty or mistake, and the penalties are swift and severe. The trainer bears the ultimate responsibility, no matter whether the drug was given by a DVM, an assistant trainer or a groom who had handled money that had been used to snort cocaine. It doesn't matter under what circumstances that it happened, just that the horse tested positive. Pay the fines, take the suspension and go on with it. It's time the show industry had the same rules as the racing industry.

Midge
Dec. 19, 2003, 02:38 PM
Most horses race once a week??? Where?

poltroon
Dec. 19, 2003, 02:51 PM
I wonder if there is a semantic problem here... are we talking drugs or supplements? Strongid C and glucosamine or isoxsuprine, dex, and bute?

In my barn, all of them get some sort of supplements/grain, often including a dewormer and a joint supplement... but only two or three of 15 regularly get medications. These horses are all in pretty serious work, including eventing at the middle levels.

JustJump
Dec. 19, 2003, 03:00 PM
Granted, thinking about the meds/feed list (and I am assuming that this is what is being referred to...although that 8pm part IS a bit suspect) can be a headache, but only when NOT enough thought has gone into advance planning. Personally, I rely on my vet to tell ME what meds the horses should be on. After that, it's a question of simply writing down the instructions in a format (ie on the feed/meds list) in such a way that &lt;&lt;"accidents"&gt;&gt; http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif are not likely to occur.

In a way I see where pwynn. is coming from; the comment was obviously meant to imply that the 8pm meds list for 30 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif horses is only a few notches below rocket science, and we are darn lucky that those ace assistants are around to deal with these things that are SO COMPLICATED.

Weatherford
Dec. 19, 2003, 03:21 PM
Well, my horses went showing every week this summer with no meds, supplements, etc... They got worked - either "ring" work, road work, or simply hacking, every day. Their feed - formulated by Ky Research in the US - includes most of the supplements they need (biotin, copper, micronuitrients, yeast cultures for digestion). My hay is good basic hay (no alfalfa here), and they get turned out.

The one horse who is showing a soundness issue hasn't done ANYTHING yet (except have a lousy blacksmith) and I will add MSM/Glucosamine to his feed (per vet's suggestion).

My trainer has up to 30 horses in her barn - they get worked daily - road work, ring work, XC work - they jump a few fences daily (sometimes only XC, sometimes only in the ring, etc) and they show once or twice a week (one day of jumpers, one of hunters and jumpers or eventing). In the Fall/winter, they get hunted. They all get some turnout - some more than others... They are all VERY SOUND - and win at the biggest shows (Dublin, as a matter of fact - and Ann gets her picture in the Horse and Hound at least once a year...) Ann makes up and cooks her own "sweet feed" (oats, barley, corn, bran, beetpulp, oils, extra copper - as her fields are poor in copper) and uses no other supplements, except perhaps some electrolytes during the heat.

The difference?? Her horses are FIT FIT FIT - muscular, skeletal, and wind!!!

I repeat, if you were an athlete competing at the top levels, would you not run, stretch, exercise the day/week/month before a competition? Horses are ATHLETES - and WILL have soundness problems if they are not FIT ENOUGH TO DO THE JOB.

My Irish friend working in a BIG barn in the US is astonished that no one does any "road work" - he says, they longe, drug, longe, drug, longe drug, and longe some more... He loves his job, but is horrified by the horsekeeping.

I am not sure changing the judging will change this ATTITUDE - but something has to be done, and that is the place to start.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

EventerAJ
Dec. 19, 2003, 03:22 PM
I haven't read the article. Taken out of context, and with our recent exposure to the "Suspension" thread, it is easy to assume the medication list is a bunch of illegal or misused drugs. I agree with Ghazzu on that respect.

Again, I didn't read the article, but perhaps he's referring to actual MEDICATIONS to heal an injury or disease. Heck, even with a 9-stall barn it can *sometimes* be quite an effort to compile a medications list-- not that we "drug" our horses, but being the sensitive, accident-prone individuals they are http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif there's often somebody on "something." And by "medication" I don't just mean drugs-- I include bandaging (sweating, poulticing) with that.

Currently, in our 9 stalls, we have a good amount of "medicating:" my horse has a sweat on his LH for a suspensory injury (was on bute, but no longer); two other horses have cuts/scrapes on their legs and are wearing bandages (and one of them is also on daily eye medication). Another horse is on Marquis and dietary supplements. So you might say 4 of 9 horses are being "medicated," though only one is actually on drugs and that's for EPM. None of our horses are showing right now, and won't be for another month or more.

So while the original statement seems quite shocking http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, perhaps there is more to it than "every horse on NSAID/tranqs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

At least that's my idealistic little eventer point of view. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Weatherford-- good point, also, about fitness. I know some hunter people see our event horses and think they look like coatracks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and I look at show hunters and see fat and blubber. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif (please don't take offense to that!) Of course hunters don't need to be as fit as a three-day horse, but perhaps significant extra weight might contribute to some soundness problems. (again, GENERALIZING) And just because a horse is "fit" doesn't mean he's a fire-breathing dragon. But I suppose a properly-conditioned horse for lower levels would lose the LTD look. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Just some thoughts. I'm probably way out in left field, oh well.

~AJ~
I've been there...that's why I'm here.

[This message was edited by EventerAJ on Dec. 19, 2003 at 06:32 PM.]

Jumphigh83
Dec. 19, 2003, 04:24 PM
Give up Chanda (as ussual another intelligent well thought out post)....Making some folks here understand the difference between their pleasure horse and the horse show ATHLETE is like trying to nail jello to the wall. Can't be done.

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com (http://www.threewindsfarmny.com)

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Chef Jade
Dec. 19, 2003, 05:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DCN:
What Chanda said . . . and a little more. Administering medications is not all about pumping show horses full of NASAIDS and the tranq-du-jour. My horse lives at a four-horse barn, and is the only one who doesn't need daily medication. The other three are pampered pleasure horses of varying ages and breeds that have never been to a horse show, but each has a chronic problem necessitating medication: one has EPM, one has a respiratory problem and one has Cushings. I just don't think it's fair or reasonable to take a quote from a BNT out of context and assume that he's referring to bute, banamine, robaxin, etc. necessitated by excessive pounding. It's just not that simplistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But DCN - you don't show your horses every weekend. You wouldn't ask them to do that. Your situation is very different, you are medicating ill horses to keep them happy an comfortable, not to go out and jump a big course with them.

I certainly believe that some meds, maybe after a particularly hard day of jumping, or if the footing is less than ideal, are warranted. But if it becomes routine, maybe people should consider an easier schedule.

(This is presuming we are NOT talking supplements, wormer, ulcer meds, and the like.)

Come and visit the horses at: http://www.crosscreek.tk

JustJump
Dec. 19, 2003, 06:03 PM
Jumphigh, I think Weatherford may be on to something...

Most of the Europeans have a very different idea of what "fit" means than most Americans.

poltroon
Dec. 19, 2003, 06:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
Give up Chanda (as ussual another intelligent well thought out post)....Making some folks here understand the difference between their pleasure horse and the horse show ATHLETE is like trying to nail jello to the wall. Can't be done.

Betsy
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jumphigh, I'm not representing everyone, but I'm talking about event horses competing at Novice, Training, and Prelim levels. My TB mare did a CCN* (that's with real steeplechase) on only hay and a vitamin supplement and is still going strong. When these horses are competing, we do interval work out on the trails. Does that not fit your definition of ATHLETE? I am not talking about a pasture ornament or pleasure horses, though I do indeed, get pleasure from mine. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ghazzu
Dec. 19, 2003, 06:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
....Making some folks here understand the difference between their pleasure horse and the horse show ATHLETE is like trying to nail jello to the wall. Can't be done.
...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, what about those "pleasure horses" that go out and do 50 or 100 miles in a day in a sport with a NFS rule?
Guess they're not "athletes", either, eh?

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Anne
Dec. 19, 2003, 07:23 PM
The present day winning American show hunter CANNOT be as fit as you are describing of the European horses. If you got a hunter that fit and then tried to show it, it might (heaven forbid) get a little fresh, toss it's head in the corner or swish it's tail through the lead change, and you would be waving a ribbon goodbye.

Duffy
Dec. 19, 2003, 07:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paloma:
Duffy,

I don't know about you, but in order for me to do my job, I don't need Isox, Dex, Reserpine or anything else to effectively do my job, which is actually rather physical itself. Drugs are not "preventative maintenance".


How about simply not _overworking_ the horse to begin with? Oh, wait, that would mean...gasp...not showing every weekend. Heaven forbid we let THAT happen. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello!!

Where did you see that I considered the above "preventative medicine"?????

My horse IS on isox because my vet recommended it based on past problems. He is also on MSM and generic Adequan because *gasp* I felt he deserved it when I am starting to ask him to jump 3'6" at the shows perhaps 1-2 x per month! This horse shows at 2 A shows last year (one day of schooling and one day of showing at each show - jumps 2'9" plus two local shows - yah he's overworked http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

But, since I'm asking more of him this year, I'm giving him some help. So sue me and call me a bad horseperson.

Some horses are fine with nothing. This horse is hacked almost every day, with jumping maybe once or twice a week when he is not shown. Unfortunately, he self-destructs when turned out in a field big enough to do harm. So, he gets some "sun time" in a SMALL paddock outside, then turned out in the indoor ring to get some bucks out.

I don't think my horse is a druggie or abused, no matter what anyone else says.


"B***h in training"

Hexel
Dec. 19, 2003, 09:03 PM
Anne http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Lord help them if they show a personality or a wee bit of spirit.

CBoylen
Dec. 19, 2003, 09:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SydneyS:
C.Boylen - Pardon me for saying so, but you seem to take the loading of meds/supplements with a "business as usual" attitude. It worries me when I see intelligent people take medicating horses as part of the process of showing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't take any offense to your statement, but I do believe that medicating horses is part of the process of showing. Where I come from, showing is a business of decimals and millimeters. I'm not talking about sound vs. unsound horses, I'm talking about that tiny twinge in a horse's back, or slight tingle in his feet that might lead to 10% less push off the ground, 4% less stride, or 5 inches right drift in the air. These are the things that at best cost the ribbon (that costs the championship, that costs the sale, that costs a whole nother week of supporting said horse on the road), and at worst lead to the misstep or accident or misuse of other body parts that do result in an unsound horse. We're looking for perfection, and the perfect horse does not exist (when did you last vet one?). Our job is to enable our horses to come as close to perfection as possible physically, so that may reflect in their jobs. I don't agree with "loading" horses with medication, but if you consider a legal program of one or two medications to be an issue, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
An educated and thoughtful trainer, who knows his horses well, can enable them to perform to the very best of their ability. That includes knowing where their problems lie and how to prevent those problems from hindering their performances. It's not an easy job, and involves an understanding of both individual horses on any given day and the way in which particular medications affect each particular horse, as well as when to leave well enough alone. That does make it a formidable task. The wrong way is easier.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

SydneyS
Dec. 19, 2003, 10:55 PM
One or two legal meds sound reasonable to me, depending on the horse. Which drugs are we talking about? Bute, banamine, isox are all low level to me (again, depending on the horse and usage). Dex, tranqs and the like are not (I'm not up on the drug du jour). I also think Adequan and Legend are helpful, not harmful. I'm still on the fence with Robaxin;, trainer says my guy needs it, but I can't feel a difference when he doesn't get it (especially when he's been worked on by his chiropractor/acupuncturist).

It is however, worrisome to give these horses any med on a long-term basis. That's how we end up with fatal colic and founder.

I just wonder why the H/J industry is at the forefront of the drug problem. The eventers and foxhunters don't use half the drugs we do and they do WAY harder stuff with their horses!!!!

Two Toofs
Dec. 20, 2003, 02:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2ndyrgal:
Anybody want to compare a list of drugs that are legal for racehorses vs. drugs that are "show legal"? Most horses race once a week and have far more demanding training schedules, yet if memory serves all I remember feeding was sweet feed, oats, really good hay, a handfull of salt and some red cell. A couple of them got bute AFTER they raced(next day) and a couple raced on Lasix (which still hasnt actually been proven to work, but seems to) Racehorse trainers have the same number of horses in the barn and most of the time, not help at the top of the scale. Yes, there are suspensions,either because of dishonesty or mistake, and the penalties are swift and severe. The trainer bears the ultimate responsibility, no matter whether the drug was given by a DVM, an assistant trainer or a groom who had handled money that had been used to snort cocaine. It doesn't matter under what circumstances that it happened, just that the horse tested positive. Pay the fines, take the suspension and go on with it. It's time the show industry had the same rules as the racing industry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have about 40 horses or so at any given time and the standard fare for each horse includes sweet feed, oats, hay, water, salt/electrolyte supplement, liquid joint supplement and a vitamin supplement that is similiar to Red Cell (high in iron). Add ons for specific horses (off the top of my head right now) include beet pulp and/or ricebran, MSM for older horses or any horses that might tend towards getting body sore (about 5 right now that fall in one or the other category), 1 on ulcer meds, 1 on sulfa drugs (preventative because of a major cut), and about 6-8 that get 2gms of bute on days that they work or race (AFTER the activity). Pre-race (24 hours out) they all get a 'build up' that consists of extra electrolytes & vitamins - and you can't give even that within 24 hours of post time - and another electrolyte boost after the race. It's definitely nothing that you have to make a "list" of to carry with you as you go down the shedrow and nothing that requires injection (not allowed unless you are a vet).

Besides that, if you want to give bute prior to a race the closest you can cut it is 2 grams 24 hours out and still be able to meet the threshold requirements for testing - and that's all you can do in our state besides giving Lasix on race day (I'd say about 70% of our horses - just guessing - get Lasix, we don't start them on it until they show that they have a need for it). Other states allow bute/banamine on race day (one or the other or some both). But in IL, nothing allowed within 24 hours except Lasix and a 'theraputic' residual amount of bute. Nothing else at all (pretty simple list to follow http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

For those interested, here are the IL rules for racing as they pertain to meds (racing "rules" are actually State Law) & drug testing. Each state has different rules and you can probably find them using a google search. KY has the most liberal laws right now, allowing (I think) a combination of 2 NSAIDS on race day out of a choice of about five or so.


IL Law:
http://www.legis.state.il.us/commission/jcar/admincode/011/01100603sections.html

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Two Toofs
Dec. 20, 2003, 04:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:
Most horses race once a week??? Where?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you aren't a KY Derby contender or the like, chances are you'll be running once every 10-14 days (a week is a little bit shorter time frame than 'average' even for lower level horses, although there are horses that do).

To be honest, any more time than that and it's difficult to keep the horse fit - and an unfit horse is more likely to injure themselves than one that isn't. (Which is probably why the 'big name' horses have a much harder time running into 'adulthood' - 4 -5 -6 -7 years old - than your 'average' mid-to-low level claimer.)

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Moonriver
Dec. 20, 2003, 05:23 AM
I remember a 3'showhorse who started getting his hocks injected yearly (as preventative maintenance)when he was 5 & by age 9 he moved like a cripple without it. They also put lots of weight on him to make him look better. I always wonder if he would have been unsound anyways.....

M. O'Connor
Dec. 20, 2003, 05:57 AM
I don't think that there is any question that the format of the sport, combined with the demands of business, have combined to encourage questionable practices.

LOTS of money is at stake, each time a horse enters the ring to perform. Reputations are at stake, egos are at stake, customer satisfaction is at stake. The bar is raised with the discovery of each new method of obtaining the desired outcome, and ironically, with the arrival in the ring of the one horse out of a hundred that is a "natural." The result is an arms race, pure and simple. For those who decide to participate in it, black and white issues shift to gray very quickly.

This isn't to detract from the many advances that have benefited our horses; these are real, and welcomed. But there undoubtedly exists a mentality that allows for expoitation of these innovations to the detriment of our horses. This, unfortunately, permeates the "industry" and casts everyone's motives into doubt. Apart from the harm caused to the horses, THIS is the most damaging circumstance of all.

I'm afraid that too many of those who are so devoted to the "8pm medication" philosophy are missing this point altogether.

MCL

Madeline
Dec. 20, 2003, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Weatherford-- good point, also, about fitness. I know some hunter people see our event horses and think they look like coatracks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and I look at show hunters and see fat and blubber. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif (please don't take offense to that!) Of course hunters don't need to be as fit as a three-day horse, but perhaps significant extra weight might contribute to some soundness problems. (again, GENERALIZING) And just because a horse is "fit" doesn't mean he's a fire-breathing dragon. But I suppose a properly-conditioned horse for lower levels would lose the LTD look. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post. But I would add "show" to your hunters that are fat whenever you mention them. The field hunters are in good shape and look more like the event horses.

madeline

bubblese
Dec. 20, 2003, 07:30 AM
Happy?

First, I am not condoning the abuse of drugs.

However, even though our horses show about 6 or 7 times from May through September we give them bute at the show and usually robaxin. They are also on legend/adequan. Do they have to have it, no. Are they happier and enjoying the show more because of it, yes. They return home in the same condition as when they left. They do not associate the extra work at show with being uncomfortable. (Just like taking asprin for being sore, I have to live on Aleeve for my back during a show and its not like I am out of shape.) We give most horses robaxin after having had one run into in the schooling area, and tweaking his back. Do they need it, no. Does it make them more comfortable and happy, yes. I do see the abuse and the lack of proper conditioning leading to injuries, however cold turkey can be another form of abuse to the horse.

Ghazzu
Dec. 20, 2003, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bubblese:
Happy?

First, I am not condoning the abuse of drugs.

....We give most horses robaxin after having had one run into in the schooling area, and tweaking his back. Do they need it, no. Does it make them more comfortable and happy, yes. I do see the abuse and the lack of proper conditioning leading to injuries, however cold turkey can be another form of abuse to the horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This makes very little sense--you give "most horses" robaxin, because *one* horse previously injured its back.
Why then, do the others get it?
Methacarbamol does nothing to *prevent* back injuries.

Does it "make them happy"? Probably.

It acts as a CNS depressant, and I am still amazed that it is permitted in showhorses.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

findeight
Dec. 20, 2003, 08:37 AM
I don't know what PP meant and I also don't know what others see in this statement but will throw in my 2 cents worth.

Look at my mare..a 3'er. 14 years old.
Because we stable in 10x10 stalls on asphalt/cement for 7 to 10 days, she gets bute on the road.
She also gets Trihist in April and May due to allergies...
If somebody gives the Trihist within a certain window before competition and I get tested ? O U T and I will be pissed at that screw up by somebody I trusted when I had to be at work.

So, yes, anybody responsible for more then a few showing on the road needs to pay attention.

BTW the barn has recently switched to Smart Pak to make this chore easier for the routine supplements. Sure is alot neater too.

Mare gets nothing at home except a joint heath regime.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

bubblese
Dec. 20, 2003, 08:53 AM
Ghazzu,

Not that I need to justify our program, however we give them robaxin since in any horse show situation things are not perfect. As with any person, if muscles are tight they are more prone to injury.

Posting Trot
Dec. 20, 2003, 09:00 AM
Just on the Derek Jeter comment.

Baseball does have laxer rules than other professional (human) sports about drugs, particularly steroids. However, these rules are in place for other sports and have, in recent years been enforced. So, if an athlete takes a prohibited drug, it can have very serious consequences on his career. There are many athletes who have been testifying to a grand jury over the past 6 weeks about a supposedly new, and "undetectable" (under current testing regimes) designer steroid.

It's worth remembering though, that a fairly large percentage of professional (human) athletes actually end their careers significantly crippled from the demands of their sports. In basketball it's blown knees and ankles, in football it's spinal injuries, leg injuries and muscle injuries, pitchers' arms break down, etc. So, while the drugs they may (or may not) take may enhance their performance, they do not keep them healthy over the long-term.

JMHO.

keljo
Dec. 20, 2003, 09:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bubblese:
Ghazzu,

Not that I need to justify our program, however we give them robaxin since in any horse show situation things are not perfect. As with any person, if muscles are tight they are more prone to injury.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sooo, if MY muscles are tight before the show, I should just pop some Soma??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif C.Boylen and Bubblese--your justifications amaze me! Don't you see a little something wrong with this situation? In other sports, the athlete giving the best performance that day is rewarded-if you're a "little off"--too bad, so sad. That's life. And yes, other sports put a LOT of training, money, sweat and tears into a performance. And in other sports, if you get "caught" using performance-enhancing drugs (which, by your explanations, these circumstances would be)--you get in trouble. It's sad that this sector of the equestrian world has degenerated so that you feel you *have* to give drugs to be competitive. It's supposed to be about the HORSE, and what's best for the HORSE, not you!

A question to you all who justify the non-medicinal use of these drugs--are you doing so under the advice and supervision of your veterinarian, or do you just "know better" and decide who gets what?

[This message was edited by keljo on Dec. 20, 2003 at 01:53 PM.]

War Admiral
Dec. 20, 2003, 10:15 AM
I think the point that a lot of us are trying to make - and which is wilfully misunderstood by others here - is that there are way too many trainers using drugs as shortcuts rather than practice effective training and conditioning methods. That's not a trainer, not in any way, shape or form.

Me personally, I voted with my pocketbook a long time ago. My money is much better spent rehabbing my rescue TB (who was dumped at a feedlot auction after a lengthy A Circuit career) than it is lining the pockets of these people. Better for the horse, too. So Jumphigh et al. can be as snotty as they want about "backyard horses" - but the bottom line is I know who takes more time, does better training, and devotes more care. Who's the horseman??? Just a thought.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

2ndyrgal
Dec. 20, 2003, 10:27 AM
Thank you two toofs. I trained at Standardbred tracks, and I was the keep em fit cheap claimer queen. Those good old (and some of them were 8 or 9 years old and up) "grocery getters" raced every week, to fill the card, and pay the bills. They remained sound on your list of approved drugs and some good old fashioned fitness work and "rubbing" until well past 12. Let them learn.

M. O'Connor
Dec. 20, 2003, 10:30 AM
&lt;&lt;C.Boylen, M.O'Conner, and Bubblese--your justifications amaze me!&gt;&gt;

keljo, would you mind telling me what I justified?

Just so you don't have to go back to the other page, here is what I wrote:


&lt;&lt;I don't think that there is any question that the format of the sport, combined with the demands of business, have combined to encourage questionable practices.
LOTS of money is at stake, each time a horse enters the ring to perform. Reputations are at stake, egos are at stake, customer satisfaction is at stake. The bar is raised with the discovery of each new method of obtaining the desired outcome, and ironically, with the arrival in the ring of the one horse out of a hundred that is a "natural." The result is an arms race, pure and simple. For those who decide to participate in it, black and white issues shift to gray very quickly.
This isn't to detract from the many advances that have benefited our horses; these are real, and welcomed. But there undoubtedly exists a mentality that allows for expoitation of these innovations to the detriment of our horses. This, unfortunately, permeates the "industry" and casts everyone's motives into doubt. Apart from the harm caused to the horses, THIS is the most damaging circumstance of all.
I'm afraid that too many of those who are so devoted to the "8pm medication" philosophy are missing this point altogether.&gt;&gt;

Other than taking advantage of scientific advances in order to make horses more comfortable (I think everyone agrees that there ARE legitimate uses for meds and supps), I am not justifying anything, only offering an explanation as to HOW things have gotten to be the way they are, and WHY THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. To spell it out for you: I am not among those who agree with the mentality that 'more is better' when it comes to meds.

MCL

pwynnnorman
Dec. 20, 2003, 10:33 AM
I'm back, having finished getting my final grades in.

Keljo, until I read your post, I was reeeeaaaallly getting worried that I'd stepped into some crazy reality or some science fiction novel where the goal is to make life as easy as possible, anyway possible...and to praise, reward and support those who accomplish that.

People, I am SCARED by your lack of shame--yeah, I'll say it that frankly. You ARE ARE ARE living in a totally, freakishly (and unabashedly) STRANGE reality--and that's exactly the point I meant to make by quoting Pletcher.

You guys don't even realize--don't even take one single moment--to think about what the REST of the world SEES AND THINKS.

It's just all about YOU.

And you wonder why you (the "equestrian elite"--what a joke) are thought of so badly outside your little world? Does it occur to you for one instance that the result of your thoughtful processes is (besides the out-and-out abuse of horses) that you may just be winning because you can AFFORD to drug up a horse for that little extra 4% (as C. Boylen stated) or whatever, while the other guy sits it out (losing) and practices good, straightforward management? And you are PROUD of that? MY God!

But there's no way you'll see it that way. No way possible. You WILL insist on seeing things only your way...

OK, let me just end with this: how would you guys feel if I copied this thread and sent it to various publications and associations? The New York Times, perhaps? Your local newspapers? Television stations--with some videotape showing the overflowing "sharps" containers at the end of "top" circuit shows?

Oh, who cares, you'll say.

And that's just my point: You clearly just don't give a damn about the image of the sport. It will endure thanks to your money, even if it and its practices are looked on with horror and disgust by the "outside" world.

Strong language.

Yup.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

ESG
Dec. 20, 2003, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bubblese:
Ghazzu,

Not that I need to justify our program, however we give them robaxin since in any horse show situation things are not perfect. As with any person, if muscles are tight they are more prone to injury.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree with Ghazzu & weatherford, as well as applauding M O'Connor's wonderfully insightful post.

And no, bubblese, you don't have to "justify" your "program" to anyone. But I can tell you that if I were shopping for a show barn and heard you make a statement like that, I'd keep right on shopping. Medicating horses (or humans or anythinig else, for that matter) that don't demonstrate a need for it is stupid, expensive and unnecessary. You said yourself that they don't need it. Do you take drugs you don't need, just because you might? I doubt it. So why subject your horse(s) to their possible side effects when the benefit isn't appropriate? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

keljo
Dec. 20, 2003, 10:53 AM
M.O'Connor--Thank you for clarifying, I'm sorry to have misunderstood your post in my haste. Re-reading, I see your point (and an excellent one it is). Sorry again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SBT
Dec. 20, 2003, 12:04 PM
All I can say is that after hearing a statement like that, I would not be boarding my horse with said BNT. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif If medicating horses on a daily basis is "business as usual," then I want no part of that business. If that means I will never be competitive in the hunter ring, then so be it. IMO, if a horse has to be medicated to be competitive, either the horse is not suited to the sport, or the sport is not horse-friendly enough.

Just my 2 cents.

Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise

Duffy
Dec. 20, 2003, 12:36 PM
Pwynn - I don't have a clue why you think we are shameful for wanting our horses to be comfortable and are willing to fork over the $$ to see that it happens. And yes, my horse and pony are under vet care. I don't just order stuff because I feel like it. Other that the adequan, there are no needles needed for my beasties.

"B***h in training"

CBoylen
Dec. 20, 2003, 02:29 PM
There are a lot of points I want to address here, but I'm hoping I can keep it in one coherent post. First of all, I said I would agree to disagree with anyone who found a program of one or two legal medications offensive. I'm sticking by that, since the bottom line is that one is free to manage their own horse as they see fit.
Now, addressing those that compare our sport to others, compare away. Other sports have rules, and so does ours. As long as one is abiding by the rules of the sport in which they compete I really don't see how you make valid points comparing one sport to another. Sports are essentially the creation of rules, and each particular sport is defined by its own set.
Now, to address Keljo in particular on this subject, never at any point have I referred to illegal drugs. In your comparison your example is referring to athletes using drugs obviously illegal to their sport, if they are "caught" using them. To move on to your next issue, I don't think I have to give any kind of medication to be competitive. I do think that at times medication has to be given to REMAIN competitive. As I explained in the post above that you might not have read, the idea of medication is to prevent the minor issues from becoming major ones. The focus IS on the horse. Horses perform their best when at their best. You can't separate those two considerations.
Everyone is so focused on the issue of "sound". As far as I'm concerned, any time I speak of a horse it's sound. We're discussing show medication. I don't show unsound horses. I can only speak for myself and all the situations I've been familiar with, but as far as I'm concerned, when the horse is going to the ring it is sound. It would be sound without a speck of anything, jogged down the middle of I-95. But, and here I'll take one for the team and use the examples of my own beast, if one were to press down upon the right side of its mid back one might notice a slight flinch, and, if one looked down they might perhaps notice that God saw fit to provide this particular animal with very little inside hoof wall. Now, this particular animal has both an acupuncturist and a masseuse, and wears out glue on shoes on a monthly basis, whereas yours truly considers herself lucky to get a hot shower and has been known to walk barefoot rather than expose her carefully hoarded, price equivalent Gucci loafers to an unexpected rain. However, if we are very careful and watchful, we notice that these 'defects' still are issues for this horse. If they were not addressed, they would lead to other issues, and I would eventually have an unsound horse. I prefer to address issues, and not wait to address unsoundness.
And that brings me to pwynnnorman. I'm really not offended by your post, although I get the impression that was your intention. You're fully welcome to your opinion, and I think we should by all means consider the opinions of those outside our sport. However, the rules of our sport are governed by our organization, and I am not a politician. Whatever rules they make, I'm glad to play by them. If their rules are offensive to the public, that is an issue for their PR department. Frankly, I've never seen any evidence that the public cared about us one way or another, but I think if they did, they'd find a few issues to care about before they hit upon legal drugs and medications.
As to the issue of being able to afford to "drug a horse up" (quotes alert to those whom I've bored to inattention), I'll admit that made me giggle a bit. Any given month, I'm paying the acupuncturist, the masseuse, the chiropractor, and the blacksmith. I've bought just about every type of pad, boot, liniment, poultice, hoof packing, and wrap. I cringe when I have to reorder the Cosequin, Strongid C, Farrier's Formula, Stress Dex, ESE, and Neighlox. AND these horses practically eat their weight in gold. I can afford to (grudgingly) do all these things. All in my best effort to keep them happy and sound. Should we outlaw them too? It's certainly not the bute and robaxin that make up the entire extent of my show medicine chest that break the bank. No one has any issues with the Adequan and Legend ( FYI I don't include those under the heading of show medication, as they are biweekly and year round), and that bill could induce heart failure.
I realize this has been lengthy, and likely an exercise in futility, but I'm glad to make an attempt to justify my program. I don't need to do so, but I hope it helps you understand that your reality is just as foreign to me as mine is to you, and I have no intention of being ashamed of it.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

LimoWrek
Dec. 20, 2003, 02:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
There are a lot of points I want to address here, but I'm hoping I can keep it in one coherent post. First of all, I said I would agree to disagree with anyone who found a program of one or two legal medications offensive. I'm sticking by that, since the bottom line is that one is free to manage their own horse as they see fit.
Now, addressing those that compare our sport to others, compare away. Other sports have rules, and so does ours. As long as one is abiding by the rules of the sport in which they compete I really don't see how you make valid points comparing one sport to another. Sports are essentially the creation of rules, and each particular sport is defined by its own set.
Now, to address Keljo in particular on this subject, never at any point have I referred to illegal drugs. In your comparison your example is referring to athletes using drugs obviously illegal to their sport, if they are "caught" using them. To move on to your next issue, I don't think I have to give any kind of medication to be competitive. I do think that at times medication has to be given to REMAIN competitive. As I explained in the post above that you might not have read, the idea of medication is to prevent the minor issues from becoming major ones. The focus IS on the horse. Horses perform their best when at their best. You can't separate those two considerations.
Everyone is so focused on the issue of "sound". As far as I'm concerned, any time I speak of a horse it's sound. We're discussing show medication. I don't show unsound horses. I can only speak for myself and all the situations I've been familiar with, but as far as I'm concerned, when the horse is going to the ring it is sound. It would be sound without a speck of anything, jogged down the middle of I-95. But, and here I'll take one for the team and use the examples of my own beast, if one were to press down upon the right side of its mid back one might notice a slight flinch, and, if one looked down they might perhaps notice that God saw fit to provide this particular animal with very little inside hoof wall. Now, this particular animal has both an acupuncturist and a masseuse, and wears out glue on shoes on a monthly basis, whereas yours truly considers herself lucky to get a hot shower and has been known to walk barefoot rather than expose her carefully hoarded, price equivalent Gucci loafers to an unexpected rain. However, if we are very careful and watchful, we notice that these 'defects' still are issues for this horse. If they were not addressed, they would lead to other issues, and I would eventually have an unsound horse. I prefer to address issues, and not wait to address unsoundness.
And that brings me to pwynnnorman. I'm really not offended by your post, although I get the impression that was your intention. You're fully welcome to your opinion, and I think we should by all means consider the opinions of those outside our sport. However, the rules of our sport are governed by our organization, and I am not a politician. Whatever rules they make, I'm glad to play by them. If their rules are offensive to the public, that is an issue for their PR department. Frankly, I've never seen any evidence that the public cared about us one way or another, but I think if they did, they'd find a few issues to care about before they hit upon legal drugs and medications.
As to the issue of being able to afford to "drug a horse up" (quotes alert to those whom I've bored to inattention), I'll admit that made me giggle a bit. Any given month, I'm paying the acupuncturist, the masseuse, the chiropractor, and the blacksmith. I've bought just about every type of pad, boot, liniment, poultice, hoof packing, and wrap. I cringe when I have to reorder the Cosequin, Strongid C, Farrier's Formula, Stress Dex, ESE, and Neighlox. AND these horses practically eat their weight in gold. I can afford to (grudgingly) do all these things. All in my best effort to keep them happy and sound. Should we outlaw them too? It's certainly not the bute and robaxin that make up the entire extent of my show medicine chest that break the bank. No one has any issues with the Adequan and Legend ( FYI I don't include those under the heading of show medication, as they are biweekly and year round), and that bill could induce heart failure.
I realize this has been lengthy, and likely an exercise in futility, but I'm glad to make an attempt to justify my program. I don't need to do so, but I hope it helps you understand that your reality is just as foreign to me as mine is to you, and I have no intention of being ashamed of it.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Cheers, Chanda.

----
Limo Wrek.

Posting Trot
Dec. 20, 2003, 02:58 PM
My point, which I realize was obscure, about going on about Derek Jeter was not to compare, one on one, one sport to another. It was, instead, to suggest that the comparison was inapt.

A human athlete who takes (any medications, even if they're legal) in order to deal with some aches and pains, or something more serious, is making a choice. Part of the choice is that, by taking the meds, s/he'll be able to perform closer to his/her peak, will thereby extend his/her career, and will thereby earn more money. The money will help pay for the doctors, surgeries, meds, etc. that may be required after the athlete has retired.

A horse, even an elite athlete-type horse, doesn't make that choice. Moreover, what happens to many of these horses, after the meds stop enhancing their performance enough to win? I'm not talking about Rox Dene, I'm talking about the steady-winning A/O jumper, the eq. horse who's consistently in the ribbons, etc. Do they retire to Pebble Beach and play golf, making up a foursome with Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley?

So, I's siding with those people who commented that if a horse needs meds to compete and win, maybe the competition should be scaled down, a bit, for the horse's sake.

LimoWrek
Dec. 20, 2003, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PostingTrot:
My point, which I realize was obscure, about going on about Derek Jeter was not to compare, one on one, one sport to another. It was, instead, to suggest that the comparison was inapt.

A human athlete who takes (any medications, even if they're legal) in order to deal with some aches and pains, or something more serious, is making a choice. Part of the choice is that, by taking the meds, s/he'll be able to perform closer to his/her peak, will thereby extend his/her career, and will thereby earn more money. The money will help pay for the doctors, surgeries, meds, etc. that may be required after the athlete has retired.

A horse, even an elite athlete-type horse, doesn't make that choice. Moreover, what happens to many of these horses, after the meds stop enhancing their performance enough to win? I'm not talking about Rox Dene, I'm talking about the steady-winning A/O jumper, the eq. horse who's consistently in the ribbons, etc. Do they retire to Pebble Beach and play golf, making up a foursome with Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley?

So, I's siding with those people who commented that if a horse needs meds to compete and win, maybe the competition should be scaled down, a bit, for the horse's sake.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The horses don't choose to jump either. Jumping is NOT GOOD for a horse. Infact, it increases wear and tear. We make choices for the horses. They live in stalls, they get limited turnout, and we feed them grain.

Saying that they don't have a choice is a moot point. I'm sure that when they are sick they don't choose to be given drugs to cure that either.

----
Limo Wrek.

Coca-Cola
Dec. 20, 2003, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:

I don't take any offense to your statement, but I do believe that medicating horses is part of the process of showing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Therein lies the problem. Medication should NOT be part of showing. The natural ability of a horse and rider are what showing is about...or at least used to be. Medication should not be used to maintain a horse is show condition; medication should be used when the horse isn't 100% to make him more comfortable, all the while giving him the time needed to recuperate. It should NOT be a substitute for a few days off.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Where I come from, showing is a business of decimals and millimeters. I'm not talking about sound vs. unsound horses, I'm talking about that tiny twinge in a horse's back, or slight tingle in his feet that might lead to 10% less push off the ground, 4% less stride, or 5 inches right drift in the air. These are the things that at best cost the ribbon (that costs the championship, that costs the sale, that costs a whole nother week of supporting said horse on the road), and at worst lead to the misstep or accident or misuse of other body parts that do result in an unsound horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are also signs that the horse is doing too much, and needs to back off. Athletes (human and equine alike) will get sore. They will have twinges. Pain is the body's way of saying, "You are overdoing things, back off and give it a few days rest." Pain is not saying, "Give me a shot of something and keep working at the same level".

If a horse is felt to be "off" enough that it needs "something", then while it is getting something to alleviate being "off", then the SOURCE of the problem must also be considered. Why is the horse off? Otherwise you aren't treating the problem for the horse's benefit, you are masking it in the name of human greed. That is where I have a problem with the cavalier use of medicinals. The lip service is "we're making him comfortable", the reality is "we want one more blue and we don't care how we get it."

MHM
Dec. 20, 2003, 03:25 PM
C. Boylen, hats off to you for your efforts and eloquence. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

My point in bringing up Derek Jeter in the first place was to demonstrate the difference between the demands of a professional athlete (or WEF circuit champion) and a weekend athlete (or the vast majority of horses in this country). Same sport, entirely different level of exertion.

Please don't diss my boyfriend Derek! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Janet
Dec. 20, 2003, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> However, even though our horses show about 6 or 7 times from May through September we give them bute at the show and usually robaxin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not saying anything is right or wrong. But just for comparison- in 2003 Belle did 4 A rated jumper shows (HITS) and one "local" rated Jumper show(WIHS Local Day), 4 Training (3'3") level events, one dressage show, and a couple of VHSA shows. Sounds like a roughly equivalent showing intensity.

She gets hoof supplement daily. She would get other supplements if she needed them.

She gets acupuncture and chiropractic (including injecting her withers) a couple of times a year (would be more if I wasn't paying two mortgages).

She has never had Robaxin (I have it, just no need to use it for her). The only time she had bute was when she had some extensive dental work.

The only times she has been off this year has been with (singularly poorly timed) hoof abcesses.

I certainly HAVE used bute at shows when it was needed (for instance when Music and I had a nasty fall in the schooling ring, and banged up her knees, but was still sound). I'd be less likely to use robaxin, except the night before, because I know it makes people groggy, and I assume it has a similar impact on horses.

So I am not saying there is anything wrong with using bute and robaxin at shows, just pointing out that it doesn't need to be "as a matter of course" for that intensity of showing.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

EventerAJ
Dec. 20, 2003, 03:41 PM
Chanda- our sports are obviously very different, and so my viewpoint is then dramatically different as well.

However I must say your post was very well-written. I still may not agree with all of it, but that's my business. Thank you for responding in such a non-defensive, non-threatening way. Your point comes across so much clearer. Now if only EVERYONE could speak that eloquently during a heated debate. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~AJ~
I've been there...that's why I'm here.

LimoWrek
Dec. 20, 2003, 03:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coca-Cola:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:

I don't take any offense to your statement, but I do believe that medicating horses is part of the process of showing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Therein lies the problem. Medication should NOT be part of showing. The natural ability of a horse and rider are what showing is about...or at least used to be. Medication should not be used to maintain a horse is show condition; medication should be used when the horse isn't 100% to make him more comfortable, _all the while giving him the time needed to recuperate_. It should NOT be a substitute for a few days off.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Where I come from, showing is a business of decimals and millimeters. I'm not talking about sound vs. unsound horses, I'm talking about that tiny twinge in a horse's back, or slight tingle in his feet that might lead to 10% less push off the ground, 4% less stride, or 5 inches right drift in the air. These are the things that at best cost the ribbon (that costs the championship, that costs the sale, that costs a whole nother week of supporting said horse on the road), and at worst lead to the misstep or accident or misuse of other body parts that do result in an unsound horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are also signs that the horse is doing too much, and needs to back off. Athletes (human and equine alike) will get sore. They will have twinges. Pain is the body's way of saying, "You are overdoing things, back off and give it a few days rest." Pain is not saying, "Give me a shot of something and keep working at the same level".

If a horse is felt to be "off" enough that it needs "something", then while it is getting something to alleviate being "off", then the SOURCE of the problem must also be considered. Why is the horse off? Otherwise you aren't treating the problem for the horse's benefit, you are masking it in the name of human greed. That is where I have a problem with the cavalier use of medicinals. The lip service is "we're making him comfortable", the reality is "we want one more blue and we don't care how we get it."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


See, I don't think most of you understand that no horse is 100% sound. Jumping is bad for a horse. By the time you have hacked and jumped your 10 warmup jumps and are in the ring about to show any said horse is at MOST 98% sound.

I don't think many of you can tell when a horse is ever so slightly off behind. Just SO slightly that it might cause the horse to not jump up as high over the first jump, so it might have to extend its stride down the first line instead of staying the same, which causes it to drift to the right in the air 6", which causes it not to pin. Ok?

We aren't talking about super lame. We are talking about about something so minor that most of the people who post here wouldn't be able to tell.

I am not being negative towards the posters here. I am just trying to convey what we mean.

----
Limo Wrek.

LimoWrek
Dec. 20, 2003, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> However, even though our horses show about 6 or 7 times from May through September we give them bute at the show and usually robaxin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not saying anything is right or wrong. But just for comparison- in 2003 Belle did 4 A rated jumper shows (HITS) and one "local" rated Jumper show(WIHS Local Day), 4 Training (3'3") level events, one dressage show, and a couple of VHSA shows. Sounds like a roughly equivalent showing intensity.

She gets hoof supplement daily. She would get other supplements if she needed them.

She gets acupuncture and chiropractic (including injecting her withers) a couple of times a year (would be more if I wasn't paying two mortgages).

She has never had Robaxin (I have it, just no need to use it for her). The only time she had bute was when she had some extensive dental work.

The only times she has been off this year has been with (singularly poorly timed) hoof abcesses.

I certainly HAVE used bute at shows when it was needed (for instance when Music and I had a nasty fall in the schooling ring, and banged up her knees, but was still sound). I'd be less likely to use robaxin, except the night before, because I know it makes people groggy, and I assume it has a similar impact on horses.

So I am not saying there is anything wrong with using bute and robaxin at shows, just pointing out that it doesn't need to be "as a matter of course" for that intensity of showing.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats fine, but you are not showing at shows where the horses need to be fine tuned as much.

----
Limo Wrek.

Janet
Dec. 20, 2003, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Thats fine, but you are not showing at shows where the horses need to be fine tuned as much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Please explain.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

QHEventr
Dec. 20, 2003, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
[QUOTE] Thats fine, but you are not showing at shows where the horses need to be fine tuned as much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Please Explain [QUOTE]

I would also like to understand this statement better

Johanna

"If I had to pick one thing to hang my hat on, I would want the horse that I was going to buy to have a face that I would enjoy seeing poked over the stall webbing every morning, waiting for breakfast"
- Jimmy Wofford on selecting a horse



"Event parties are all about adrenaline release, beer, loud music, and unacceptable behavior. Dancing on the table is strictly OK, as is climbing up the tent pole."
- Denny Emerson

Coca-Cola
Dec. 20, 2003, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:

See, I don't think most of you understand that no horse is 100% sound. Jumping is bad for a horse. By the time you have hacked and jumped your 10 warmup jumps and are in the ring about to show any said horse is at MOST 98% sound.

I don't think many of you can tell when a horse is ever so slightly off behind. Just SO slightly that it might cause the horse to not jump up as high over the first jump, so it might have to extend its stride down the first line instead of staying the same, which causes it to drift to the right in the air 6", which causes it not to pin. Ok?

We aren't talking about super lame. We are talking about about something so minor that most of the people who post here wouldn't be able to tell.

I am not being negative towards the posters here. I am just trying to convey what we mean.

----
Limo Wrek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly do understand. All else being equal, the horse who puts in the best round should win. If a horse is not at the top of its game on that particular day, and cannot give its best effort, then it doesn't deserve the blue on that particular day, no matter how talented on any other day. If it is so far off the game that someone feels it needs drugs to compensate, then the horse should skip that show altogether.

Showing and winning should be about who had the best round, not who had the best cocktail that morning. Your arguement about horses being 98% sound doesn't hold wateras an excuse. If as you say, they're all only 98% sound, then the field is still level, and once again it is a matter of the blue going to the horse who put in the closest to perfect round in an otherwise level playing field.

Add drugs to the equation and the playing field is no longer equal. Gosh, that sounds like...cheating! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Even if it technically isn't cheating by the rule book, the win is hollow, because the horse would not have otherwise been the best that day without "help".

JustJump
Dec. 20, 2003, 05:15 PM
&lt;&lt;I think we should by all means consider the opinions of those outside our sport. However, the rules of our sport are governed by our organization, and I am not a politician. Whatever rules they make, I'm glad to play by them. If their rules are offensive to the public, that is an issue for their PR department. Frankly, I've never seen any evidence that the public cared about us one way or another&gt;&gt;

Now here is another instance where the Europeans may be a a little more evolved than we are...not only are they VERY concerned about what the public might think, they actually have DO have a public to consider...(think: chicken/egg).

And they have elected, on the PR front (I'm not talking about what might REALLY be going on in those FEI tents, just the public face of things...) to show under rules that are structured so they don't have to worry about photos of the sharps containers appearing on the PETA protest posters. AND, most have horses fit enough to TAKE the pounding, and STILL pass the jog (pssst, 98% wouldn't cut it, either).

And, I doubt very much that they aren't able [SOMEHOW ] to gain that extra "edge" which would be equal to that 6" that Limo Wreck refers to...

&lt;&lt;Thats fine, but you are not showing at shows where the horses need to be fine tuned as much.&gt;&gt;

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ooh. LW, don't you think that sounds just a leeeeeeeetle bit condescending?

(But I get what you mean; an edge is an edge, and who wouldn't want an edge? Especially if everybody else has/is doing it? It's just sad that these people don't see that there is no real choice on this issue...because it's all about the edge, right?)

LimoWrek
Dec. 20, 2003, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Thats fine, but you are not showing at shows where the horses need to be fine tuned as much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Please explain.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It won't knock you out of the ribbons. There aren't as many entries. And you were doing a bunch of jumper classes. I am really only talking about a hunter class at a huge show. It is just a fact, you know?

If you are at WEF and your horse jumps to the right 6" over every jump comming out of a line you aren't going to pin or pin well (if everything else is perfect). If you have a great trip besides this at a smaller shown you will win. Thats only what I meant.

We aren't talking about making lame or even sore horses sound. We are talking about bringing the horses from 95% sound to 98% sound.

----
Limo Wrek.

Duffy
Dec. 20, 2003, 05:35 PM
Chanda, I'm with you girl! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We really need to chat again now that we know who each other are. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"B***h in training"

ESG
Dec. 20, 2003, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coca-Cola:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:

I don't take any offense to your statement, but I do believe that medicating horses is part of the process of showing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Therein lies the problem. Medication should NOT be part of showing. The natural ability of a horse and rider are what showing is about...or at least used to be. Medication should not be used to maintain a horse is show condition; medication should be used when the horse isn't 100% to make him more comfortable, _all the while giving him the time needed to recuperate_. It should NOT be a substitute for a few days off.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Where I come from, showing is a business of decimals and millimeters. I'm not talking about sound vs. unsound horses, I'm talking about that tiny twinge in a horse's back, or slight tingle in his feet that might lead to 10% less push off the ground, 4% less stride, or 5 inches right drift in the air. These are the things that at best cost the ribbon (that costs the championship, that costs the sale, that costs a whole nother week of supporting said horse on the road), and at worst lead to the misstep or accident or misuse of other body parts that do result in an unsound horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are also signs that the horse is doing too much, and needs to back off. Athletes (human and equine alike) will get sore. They will have twinges. Pain is the body's way of saying, "You are overdoing things, back off and give it a few days rest." Pain is not saying, "Give me a shot of something and keep working at the same level".

If a horse is felt to be "off" enough that it needs "something", then while it is getting something to alleviate being "off", then the SOURCE of the problem must also be considered. Why is the horse off? Otherwise you aren't treating the problem for the horse's benefit, you are masking it in the name of human greed. That is where I have a problem with the cavalier use of medicinals. The lip service is "we're making him comfortable", the reality is "we want one more blue and we don't care how we get it."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear, hear. Very well put. I completely agree.

lauriep
Dec. 20, 2003, 06:50 PM
First of all, we seem to have lost the distinction between ILLEGAL DRUGS, and ILLEGAL levels of legal drugs, to blanket statements that no show horse should get ANY drugs! In my response below, I am speaking of perfectly legal, therapeutic drugs as part of a show horse's management, and I am speaking of a full A show season...

Coca Cola, pain is NOT always an indication that "you are overdoing things." Some horses, and people, have physical deviations from perfection, that, while not stopping them from living an active life, may need to have some sort of "help" to keep them truly comfortable. These types of "unsoundnesses," which I call structural, are completely different from the unsoundnesses that come from overwork and poor management.

There simply is no black and white to this issue. Each horse/situation must be managed individually, and the appropriate management of said horse may include legal medications! As long as our federation deems it legal to use some therapeutic drugs, then no one here has the right to condemn those that do. And these same people are saying that some legal DRUGS are ok, yet others aren't (Legend and Adequan certainly are drugs/supplements, yet these, and injecting joints, seems to be perfectly acceptable, yet how can you say they aren't performance enhancing?).

Final point is, you can manage your own horses as you see fit, but that does not put you in the position to pass judgement on those who choose a different path, particularly if you have no knowledge of their circumstances.

Painting any situation with a broad brush, as the black and white judgementals here seem to want to do, is unfair, cruel and mostly incorrect. Do what is right for YOU and let others do the same!

Laurie

[This message was edited by lauriep on Dec. 20, 2003 at 10:01 PM.]

SydneyS
Dec. 20, 2003, 07:42 PM
I think that maybe it IS time to agree to disagree...

I will always prefer sitting it out when my horse is not up to the task (even if it is only a few inches of a drift). But I don't think anyone here is medicating their horses for the sole purpose of the tri-color.

I appreciate the concept of preventing potential missteps and subsequent soundness problems. In fact, the only times I have used bute, banamine or robaxin before, during or after a show has been on a COMPLETELY sound horse. (And LIMOWREK, I can ALWAYS tell when my horse is slightly off - even the vets have to study the horse to find what I feel.)

C.Boylen - Thanks for your post - I was curious what meds you used, but didn't think it was any of my business to ask! It sounds as if we are closer in philosophy than we realize.

Linus
Dec. 20, 2003, 10:54 PM
This is a fascinating subject, as I am always eager to learn the reasons behind some of the puzzling (to me, anyway) things done in the elite h-j world.

Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, we've lost some of the shades of grey here. Med discussions, the evil stepsibling of helmet discussions, are polarizing. Even as they claim to want debate, some of the well-intentioned no-meds / always-helmet sector pounce on anyone who disagrees, stifling dissent to the point that eventually they're the only ones talking.

I think some of the knee-jerk "no-meds" reactions have to do with the real abuses that do go on -- drugging horses into oblivion for the popular "walking dead" look, or using pain meds to make an unsound horse showable. These practices are inexcusable, in fact they're so inexcusable that you'd be hard-pressed to find a horseperson try to defend them here.

Instead what we have here are the conscientious owners, riders, and trainers explaining their reasoning for using meds when needed. They're not part of the drugging problem. The real villains are doing their drugging behind closed doors and wouldn't dream of airing their secrets out on a public BB. Do we really want to compare these folks to the true bad guys, and lose their input altogether?

LimoWrek
Dec. 20, 2003, 11:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Linus:
This is a fascinating subject, as I am always eager to learn the reasons behind some of the puzzling (to me, anyway) things done in the elite h-j world.

Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, we've lost some of the shades of grey here. Med discussions, the evil stepsibling of helmet discussions, are polarizing. Even as they claim to want debate, some of the well-intentioned no-meds / always-helmet sector pounce on anyone who disagrees, stifling dissent to the point that eventually they're the only ones talking.

I think some of the knee-jerk "no-meds" reactions have to do with the real abuses that do go on -- drugging horses into oblivion for the popular "walking dead" look, or using pain meds to make an unsound horse showable. These practices are inexcusable, in fact they're so inexcusable that you'd be hard-pressed to find a horseperson try to defend them here.

Instead what we have here are the conscientious owners, riders, and trainers explaining their reasoning for using meds when needed. They're not part of the drugging problem. The real villains are doing their drugging behind closed doors and wouldn't dream of airing their secrets out on a public BB. Do we really want to compare these folks to the true bad guys, and lose their input altogether?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed! Perhaps the 'walking dead look' will start to fade just like the heroin sheek look of the models from the mid 90's. Who knows.

----
Limo Wrek.

Weatherford
Dec. 21, 2003, 04:55 AM
But, when the walking dead look ends, will the overmedication? There is still fitness to consider - I just say Robert Smith riding at Olympis, jumping the International classes same horse, 3rd day in a row... after winning the Puissance the second day... FEI (no meds). Horse looked great!

Horse is FIT FIT FIT - yet, cantered around the HUGE course like a hunter!

It can be done - yes, judging will HAVE to change, AND trainer attitudes will have to change, too! LTD gets them as fit, but hurts the legs more than solid road work, especially at WEF - where the roads and trails are WONDERFUL. Roadwork (trotting and galloping) would allieviate the horses' boredome, get them properly fit at all the levels that need fitness, and allow them to enjoy life a little more, so perhaps that extra sparkle and brilliance will be there next time they DO enter the ring...

Has ANYONE ever checked the long term effects of HERBALS (that is the OTC things we add to our horses' feeds?) Be it vitamins or minerals, you really need to carefully check what is already INCLUDED in your feed before adding more supplements - you could be doing more harm than good. (For example, the fat soluable vitamins - D, for one - are toxic in high levels) - does your FEED already have some of those vitamins and minerals? When I switched to the KY feeds (yeah, here in Ireland), I was able to throw out most of my additives - from the probiotics to the biotin - both of which are already in the feed. You also need to be very careful of electrolytes - not give them ransomly, just when needed... Etc..

Rather like "injecting hocks as a percautionary measure" - uh inserting a needle (even sterile) into the synovial joint is a very dangerous thing, and doing it too often will certainly cause more problems than solve! (As evidenced by an earlier post!)

On the Rx front - we all know about dex and the immune system problems, bute and ulcers, etc etc...

The whole thing concerns me (yup, in humans as much as horses), and sometimes I feel we are all getting barn blind by greed.

By the way, findeight, if you horse lives on concrete, you should either deep bed or buy stall mats - in the long run, far cheaper than bute. I just lined my stalls with mats and got rid of the deep beds, and am very happy with them! (All the stalls here in Ireland are concrete!)

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JustJump
Dec. 21, 2003, 06:05 AM
Good points Weatherford, but much of what you say will fall on deaf ears.

For one thing, on the question of fitness--think of how much TIME each horse must be worked on in order to develop this...so much of the disagreement on this you see, originates not in the "8pm" part of the topic statement, but in the "barn of 30" portion. No one working under the USA setup has time to actually WORK 30 horses to the level of fitness you describe! It's a matter of efficiency, economy, and the bottom line. Deprive an AA/junior/AO of those important recreational hours in the saddle on the AAA circuit after all that time, effort and money have gone into buying those weekend airline tickets to WEF, sending the horse to FL in Nov, the condo's been rented, etc? Not to mention that the barn's bottom line is based on hiring "X" staff members to look after "y" horses who are showing, and charged accordingly. The barn's bottom line is not based on having owners take a relaxed hack around the showgrounds, NOT taking le$$ons, and NOT going to the $how ring...THERE lies the trap. And so many owners, many of whom are NOT as knowledgeable or as attuned to their own horse as C. Boylen obviously is, will remain oblivious, until the PETA crowd discovers those sharps containers and all hell breaks loose.

No, those like our friend Limo Wreck here, I'm afrraid, will simply overlook your alternative, prefering to view anyone who might seriously consider it or others (such as described above) to be too unsophisticated to recognize the small margins represented by the degrees between 90-100%, or just ignorant of the necessities of getting to that show ring.

As far as the herbals, well, I think you could safely say that under our testing system, a number of THOSE mightn't turn out to be QUITE what they appear, as some of those who were caught in the last Fed dragnet could could attest.

Madeline
Dec. 21, 2003, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:

Coca Cola, pain is NOT always an indication that "you are overdoing things." Some horses, and people, have physical deviations from perfection, that, while not stopping them from living an active life, may need to have some sort of "help" to keep them truly comfortable. These types of "unsoundnesses," which I call structural, are completely different from the unsoundnesses that come from overwork and poor management.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, then again, humans have a choice...

madeline

CoolMeadows
Dec. 21, 2003, 06:49 AM
Oh boy, I'm gonna be veerrrry unpopular for this, but I would welcome a zero tolerance policy on drugging. I have no problems with people who do medicate within legal limits, it is their right, but my biggest problem with it is the horsemen this policy doesn't produce.

Not people like C. Boylen, but whoever said "I don't think anyone's medicating just to get that tri-color", you are sadly wrong. There are plenty of people medicating just for the ribbons, and if you saw those horses at home and without their drugs, you'd be surprised at how rickety they are.

I was brought up under FEI rules, and taught by BHS instructors. The yard had lectures on nutrition, fitness, mental health, soundness you name it, they covered it, in depth.

When I came here, I was amazed by how little horses were actually worked. 30 minutes of flopping around on the rail at .01 mph and on the forehand is what it looked like to me (gross generalization, sorry).

I think that way too many trainers reach in the medicine cabinet as a first option, not a last resort. I leased a wonderful Tb mare to a BNT's student. BNT and I signed the lease. Mare was sent off, at 7 years old, in big, round plain steel shoes, square, muscular, stout and shiny, on no meds, supplements, or joint injections to BNT's barn. She was competetive in the level 6's and 7's this way, showing regularly. Had two rails down during her career at that point. I drew up a detailed 4 page lease, and included "no medications", no hormone altering, no joint injections, please. If you want to put her on vitamins and a joint supplement, have at it.

Two years later, the mare got off the trailer at my barn and I cried. I felt so disillusioned. She was crippled, hot, wearing eggbars and wedge pads on two entirely different shaped feet (stupid me, I hadn't mentioned shoeing in the lease, other than it had to be done, because WHY would anyone change perfect feet?), she was weedy, skinny and looked like a bad racehorse coming from a bush track under the care of a bad trainer. I stupidly didn't draw blood, I think I was partly in shock, but she didn't eat, she shook and peed mucous for three days. She was coming down off of something. She was backsore and upside down. It took two years to get her up to weight and muscled correctly again, her feet never fully recovered, and she will always be absurdly hot. The BNT trainer who did this to her is NO horseman in my book, but he's not unusual, and that's sad. I later found out that many clauses in the lease had been broken, and that the mare was maybe hacked once a week, but jumped twice every week. They broke her down and fried her brain, just because they had no training process and a love for meds. This was a horse who had also been competetive in the Second Years at HITS shows, while showing in jumpers at the same shows. Went in a plain snaffle, now can only be rideable in some kind of kimberwicke (I don't own her anymore).

I do think fitness is what we lack the most in our horses. I do think that legal medications make it more difficult for us to produce good horsemen (I know, there are many good ones too). I also think that hunters are a difficult fit in this situation because they can't be too fit. The judging standards have reached such unnatural levels that medicating is practically a necessity.

I have managed to keep an 18 year old sound as a bell through 14 years of showing, save for one incident with a crap farrier... that required time off for his feet to grow. No meds, no joint injections, no funky shoes. But he was ridden very, very regularly as a young horse, and jumped up to twice a week (not when showing). I think all the consistent work he got early on, and the correctness of the work have kept him sound. I could be wrong, he may just be a super-horse (he is). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

MHM
Dec. 21, 2003, 07:44 AM
I'll just make one more comment. In my mind, I equate the legal levels of Bute, Banamine, etc. with the aspirin or Advil that I always have handy.

Now, when I was younger and sounder, I only took aspirin after some sort of injury, which usually involved a naughty horse. Now that I'm, ahem, not as young as I used to be, and I've had a bit more wear and tear, I might not take an Advil for weeks on end, but if I have a couple of days that I know will be more physically demanding, I'll take a couple of OTC painkillers in the morning, BEFORE I need them.

Can I function without them? Yes, of course I can. However, I'll be happier and more comfortable if I take them. Why would I do any less for my horse?

Until I hit the lottery, I need to be able to function each day and work for a living. Most horses also work for a living. There are some lucky ones who hit the horse lottery and get to be lawn ornaments- I have one of those, too. (She'll turn 25 on January 1st- happy birthday to her! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) The rest of the equine population, well, they have jobs to do, and I think if an occasional aspirin or the like is a good idea for me, it's a good idea for them, too.

I only wish I had the equivalent team of massage people, chiropractors, and doctors that many show horses have. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JustJump
Dec. 21, 2003, 08:12 AM
MHM--your point is well taken. But, unfortunately, the use YOU describe doesn't equate, in practice, with the abuse that goes on in search of that elusive edge.

MHM
Dec. 21, 2003, 08:46 AM
I believe my approach is widely shared by many, many horsemen, but since they're not the ones getting set down, nobody's talking about them.

Obviously, there will always be a few people in any sport who will do anything to gain "the edge."

Hopeful Hunter
Dec. 21, 2003, 08:58 AM
As one who is still learning about realities at various levels of horse showing, I find all these threads disturbing.

I'm not sure still how I feel about legal medications for a horse to do its job -- I know EXACTLY how I feel about illegal drugs and imo abusive practices, it's the "within the law and it helps him go around a bit brighter" drugs that I'm not sure about in my own mind yet. I do, however, appreciate Chanda and Laurie writing so openly of their own policies and practices -- it gives me a reality to check against and consider that is far from the "yeah, but it is really within legal limits or BS" thoughts. I don't yet know if or to what extent I agree with them, but I respect their willingness to discuss and can see they are indeed thinking about their horses as part of a whole show package.

I do think, though, that many horses can be maintained into older age with a minimum or maybe even no preventive meds. BUT...those horses often are not showing at the top, and their work load is usually adjusted to accomodate them. I myself had an older OTTB who was sound on nothing but Cosequin and Biotin until his death from colic -- but he wasn't on the road and enjoyed 8-24 hours of turnout depending on the weather each day.

But I DO think the posts about the potential bad press should be considered. PETA destroyed much of Louisiana's marsh economy by battling the fur industry (nutria trapping died off -- today the nutria are again being trapped, after destroying the marshland, but the govt is doing it and the old, poor trapper families are still out of work) -- whether or not one agrees with fur as a product, the human and animal impact was huge. And that was for an animal that looks like a rat -- imagine what they could do with Little Polly's Dream Pony. Something we should be wary of....

LimoWrek
Dec. 21, 2003, 09:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustJump:
MHM--your point is well taken. But, unfortunately, the use YOU describe doesn't equate, in practice, with the abuse that goes on in search of that elusive edge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is how it goes on if you use the drugs in the legal AHSA correct way. How many times are people suspended for pain killers? Its almost always been tranquilizers. Seriously, people are NOT showing 3 legged horses. They are showing horses that have been jumping for a bunch of years. Thats it.

----
Limo Wrek.

AWIP
Dec. 21, 2003, 09:03 AM
Regarding the "preventative" robaxin use ... yikes! I've ridden having used methocarbomal in my system (sciatia & back spasms) and have had greatly increased lower joint and back problems afterwards becuase my muscles couldn't tighten properly to support the joints from jumping impact. I'd hate to think how the horse's joints feel afterwards.

I can understand riding with limited bute for its anti-inflammatory properties but robaxin? Not after feeling what it did to me!

War Admiral
Dec. 21, 2003, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Seriously, people are NOT showing 3 legged horses. They are showing horses that have been jumping for a bunch of years. Thats it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LimoWrek, I'm afraid you're being painfully naive.

My farrier recently came back from a seminar from whence he obtained the following statistics - which I find scary and despicable: (1) 68% of jumpers have been nerved; (2) 78% of jumpers have ringbone.

Trust me my friend, if they can eke one more measly $25,000 GP out of 'em without the horse actually falling over, they will, and they will NOT care what it takes to get the job done.

I own one of these horses. He reportedly traded in the high 6 figures in his day, regional HOTY, blah blah blah - and I bid him in for $600 at a feedlot auction lame on 3 legs. And FRESH off the circuit - still had the jumper cut and the drugs in his system to prove it.

THAT is what needs to stop.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

Anne
Dec. 21, 2003, 10:12 AM
War Admiral, where, pray tell, did your farrier obtain these numbers?

I have never seen check boxes on entry forms that say "mark here if your horse was nerved" or "mark here if your horse has ringbone".

Also, there is no such thing as a "regional horse of the year." Perhaps your horse won some kind of zone award?

War Admiral
Dec. 21, 2003, 10:18 AM
Zone award, yes, sorry, I was thinking in carriage driving lingo! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As stated, he obtained it at a farriers' seminar. The show managers and USAE/USEF may delude themselves that it doesn't happen, but believe me, the vets and the farriers DO know. I happened to mention it to Avery's lameness specialist (who treats a lot of high-perf horses hereabouts) and his own in-house farrier had been to the same seminar and heard the same stat. The vet said based on his own experience he would not be able to disagree.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

lauriep
Dec. 21, 2003, 11:34 AM
War Admiral, there are no figures available for this type of info, and unless EVERY farrier for EVERY horse was there to share that they knew EVERY veterinary procedure to EVERY horse they shoe, their speculation is invalid.

These things DO take place, don't get me wrong, but there are no figures available.

Laurie

Dana
Dec. 21, 2003, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But, then again, humans have a choice...

madeline <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Madeline, of course, humans have a choice. Unfortunately, our horses do not have a choice. WE decided that they were going to be show horses. WE decided that they would going to be hunters/jumpers/western pleasure horses, etc. WE decided that they were going to live in a stall. WE decided that they were going to a horse show. And, WE decide when THEY need medication. I, personally, would LOVE it if my horses would have been able to tell me where they hurt and what to do to make it better. But, they can't do that so it's up to us as their owners and caretakers to make informed decisions as to what medications they should or should not receive.


Dana

Friends don't let friends ride junk!

LimoWrek
Dec. 21, 2003, 11:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Seriously, people are NOT showing 3 legged horses. They are showing horses that have been jumping for a bunch of years. Thats it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LimoWrek, I'm afraid you're being painfully naive.

My farrier recently came back from a seminar from whence he obtained the following statistics - which I find scary and despicable: (1) 68% of jumpers have been nerved; (2) 78% of jumpers have ringbone.

Trust me my friend, if they can eke one more measly $25,000 GP out of 'em without the horse actually _falling over_, they will, and they will NOT care what it takes to get the job done.

I own one of these horses. He reportedly traded in the high 6 figures in his day, regional HOTY, blah blah blah - and I bid him in for $600 at a feedlot auction lame on 3 legs. And FRESH off the circuit - still had the jumper cut and the drugs in his system to prove it.

THAT is what needs to stop.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well.. I am a trainer who does WEF and indoors and all of those shows. I do fairly well if I say so myself. I'm not talking about jumpers though. I don't really do many jumpers, most of my people are hunters.

You can't really make a lame hunter sound enough to pass a jog if it is crippled with the legal AHSA meds.

I'm sure the jumper people do show lame horses. If they canter you can't really tell if they are super lame or not. They just don't trot.


And just throwing away a horse that did well for you isn't the norm. That is awful. It is the horses that DON'T show and do well that usually end up at the killers.

Most nice horses are retired or are donated to some riding school where they do updown lessons a few times a week when they are too lame to show.
----
Limo Wrek.

Madeline
Dec. 21, 2003, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dana:
Madeline, of course, humans have a choice. Unfortunately, our horses do not have a choice. WE decided that they were going to be show horses. WE decided that they would going to be hunters/jumpers/western pleasure horses, etc. WE decided that they were going to live in a stall. WE decided that they were going to a horse show. And, WE decide when THEY need medication. I, personally, would LOVE it if my horses would have been able to tell me where they hurt and what to do to make it better. But, they can't do that so it's up to us as their owners and caretakers to make informed decisions as to what medications they should or should not receive.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if starting to jump off to one side, and getting a little flinchy in the back, etc. are not examples of "the horse telling (you) where they hurt" I don't know what is.

If you're going to box them up in a 10X10 and put them on the road for weeks on end you shouldn't be surprised if they need "a little help." I'm just not sure that the "help" they need should be drugs that mask the pain so that they can keep on aggravating whatever is making them sore in the first place. Now, a little bute so that they can comfortably enjoy their rehab time off, that's a different story.

madeline

ESG
Dec. 21, 2003, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
Oh boy, I'm gonna be veerrrry unpopular for this, but I would welcome a zero tolerance policy on drugging. I have no problems with people who do medicate within legal limits, it is their right, but my biggest problem with it is the horsemen this policy doesn't produce.

Hear, hear. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
When I came here, I was amazed by how little horses were actually worked. 30 minutes of flopping around on the rail at .01 mph and on the forehand is what it looked like to me (gross generalization, sorry).

More a stereotypical hunter, I think, but then again, stereotypes are based in fact. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think that way too many trainers reach in the medicine cabinet as a first option, not a last resort.

I do think fitness is what we lack the most in our horses. I do think that legal medications make it more difficult for us to produce good horsemen (I know, there are many good ones too). I also think that hunters are a difficult fit in this situation because they can't be too fit. The judging standards have reached such unnatural levels that medicating is practically a necessity.

I think this is the gist of the whole drugging/non-drugging issue. Very well put.

I have managed to keep an 18 year old sound as a bell through 14 years of showing, save for one incident with a crap farrier... that required time off for his feet to grow. No meds, no joint injections, no funky shoes. But he was ridden very, very regularly as a young horse, and jumped up to twice a week (not when showing). I think all the consistent work he got early on, and the correctness of the work have kept him sound. I could be wrong, he may just be a super-horse (he is). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I think I have your horse's brother, only mine's 23 and still going strong. I've owned him for 10 years, and this horse has never had a joint injection and never required anything stronger than two grams of bute for three days at a stretch when he was stiff. Of course, I also use chiropractic, acupuncture and massage to keep my guys both comfortable AND competitive.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JustJump
Dec. 21, 2003, 12:43 PM
War Admiral, I do not think those figures could be accurate.

Limo Wreck, the 3 legged ones are those who are lucky enough to limp badly enough to qualify for some R & R. The rest just show on meds till they ARE 3 legged lame...of course, someone as astute as you are would, no doubt, detect whatever is wrong long before that point, no matter how many layers of NSAID's were in the horse's system...and act accordingly,which is...well, maybe you'd like to tell us: how?

LimoWrek
Dec. 21, 2003, 02:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustJump:
War Admiral, I do not think those figures could be accurate.

Limo Wreck, the 3 legged ones are those who are lucky enough to limp badly enough to qualify for some R & R. The rest just show on meds till they ARE 3 legged lame...of course, someone as astute as you are would, no doubt, detect whatever is wrong long before that point, no matter how many layers of NSAID's were in the horse's system...and act accordingly,which is...well, maybe you'd like to tell us: how?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't show lame horses. We inject their joints if those are causing them problems. We give them bute to compensate for the banging they get from jumping. Jumping makes horses lame. it is BAD for horses. We medicate them because they are jumping for DAYS in a row. They woudn't become 3 legged lame without the medication.

I feel that a fit and sound horse would feel like you would after you did something that is a bit more vigerous than your workout that you do at home. Shows are more stressful. They do make them slightly sore. Perhaps it is just being muscle sore.

I think we should just agree to disagree on the legal drugs issue. I don't think that giving the legal 2 nsaids plus maybe some dex in there (as another pain killer, NOT to tranquilize) is not abuse.

Choose not to do it, that is fine. I don't think that there are ANY HORSES who show enough to get into indoors and that show enough to be broke enough to do well at indoors that aren't on medication.

----
Limo Wrek.

Ghazzu
Dec. 21, 2003, 02:44 PM
lemme get this straight--you think there's nopthing at all wrong with dumping 3 potent prescription anti-inflammatories into an animal at once?

Good grief.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

LimoWrek
Dec. 21, 2003, 02:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
lemme get this straight--you think there's nopthing at all wrong with dumping 3 potent prescription anti-inflammatories into an animal at once?

Good grief.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't.. And I woudn't consider them potent. None of our horses go on anything other than banamine, perhaps with a bit of dex towards the end of a heavy showing period. Some of the ancient ones that do the 3' or the modified childrens go on 3. None would limp without them, they just are not at that 98% sound point that it takes to be a peak performance.

----
Limo Wrek.

SydneyS
Dec. 21, 2003, 03:00 PM
CoolMeadows - You misquoted me. I was the one who stated that I didn't think "anyone HERE medicates for the tri-color."

The operative word being HERE. I was referring to those posting on this thread, not the general public.

I think we're jumping to conclusions now instead of having productive discussions on medication use.

Weatherford
Dec. 21, 2003, 03:04 PM
But to JUMP a horse in competition, it needs to be COMPETITION fit - that is VERY fit. Just as a 3-Day horse needs to be as fit as a human marathoner (or triathlete!), a Jumper needs to be at least as fit as a hurdler!!

How many hunter jumper people in the US really look at how the HUMAN athlete gets fit for those jobs and works out a schedule accordingly? To COMPETE with a horse that is not fully fit enough for the competition is simply UNFAIR TO THE HORSE. And, of course, damaging!

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LimoWrek
Dec. 21, 2003, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
But to JUMP a horse in competition, it needs to be COMPETITION fit - that is VERY fit. Just as a 3-Day horse needs to be as fit as a human marathoner (or triathlete!), a Jumper needs to be at least as fit as a hurdler!!

How many hunter jumper people in the US really look at how the HUMAN athlete gets fit for those jobs and works out a schedule accordingly? To COMPETE with a horse that is not fully fit enough for the competition is simply UNFAIR TO THE HORSE. And, of course, damaging!

_ It's OUT! _ Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping _ co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif _ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Agreed, but then to get a fit hunter quiet enough to how a hunter is suppost to go, its lame from all the lunging... Thats the problem! Perhaps changing how things are judged is the answer. I just don't see how they could and have it be hunters still.


Those people who think horses from the 60's or whatever never got drugs are WRONG. All of the good ones that won a lot got ace. And bute. and a TON of other stuff. They jumped in the first years as 3 year olds. They ran the horses at jumps that were 20' wide and had wings so they coudn't run out. It wasn't a 'golden age' of hunters.

----
Limo Wrek.

JustJump
Dec. 21, 2003, 03:15 PM
Ghazzu: I was actually beginning to type in the protocol I suspected that Limo Wreck would follow at the end of my post, above, but then I got the bright idea to ask...and "presto," my suspicions were confirmed.

Whoa there Limo--granted your success in the ring probably leaves no doubt as to your expertise, but:

Have you ever stopped to consider that those NSAID's, rather than PREVENTING problems, might be MASKING minor problems that may later develop into larger issues?

Has a vet recommended/prescribed bute in the case of EACH horse that you routinely dose with these meds just in the normal course of going to a show?

And the dex...what exactly is that supposed to DO for them? It's not exactly proven as a preventative, although it does quickly alleviate allergic reactions (such as hives, which are strangely prevlent these days), and IS correlated with side effects, some of which are highly dangerous, others of which are rather convenient for trainers, from a hunter-judge's point of view...

Personally, I've always preferred to condition horses in training carefully, jump them appropriately according to how fit they are, and afterwards observe them closely for signs of soreness, without medicating. This way I can be sure that I'm not overlooking anything--and if any soreness does develop, I get the vet in. We determine the cause and address it. I don't medicate unless there is a specific need. It might be just lucky that my horses remain sound under this program, but I like to think it's because I'm careful with them, and I've educated the people I teach to be careful as well...

War Admiral
Dec. 21, 2003, 03:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm sure the jumper people do show lame horses. If they canter you can't really tell if they are super lame or not. They just don't trot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, precisely. The last trainer I groomed for had a horse that had been retired from dressage owing to ringbone - so what do they do with it? Nerve it and make it a GP jumper. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif I only stayed a week. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Re: the stats - Please note they were specifically talking jumpers, not hunters. And while I think lauriep is probably right and I cannot cite the report these farriers were quoting, I do think that the incidence of nerved jumpers and jumpers w/ ringbone is probably a LOT higher than anyone dreams. (BTW the farrier reporting this stat said they meant anything from *incipient* ringbone - which almost every GP jumper has - to "+9 rated, high/low, both sides, nerved twice already to keep him jumping" which is where my guy was at when I got him).

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

MistyBlue
Dec. 21, 2003, 03:37 PM
LimoWrek:
"Those people who think horses from the 60's or whatever never got drugs are WRONG. All of the good ones that won a lot got ace. And bute. and a TON of other stuff. They jumped in the first years as 3 year olds. They ran the horses at jumps that were 20' wide and had wings so they coudn't run out. It wasn't a 'golden age' of hunters."

Well, I will agree that it wasn't unheard of for horses in the 60's and 70's to have a little chemical help for competition. But it also wasn't exactly the "norm" it seems to be today. Not ALL of the 'good ones that won" got a "ton of everyhting." That definitely be a gross exaggeration, to the extreme. Ace wasn't as prevelant as today, because hunters back then didn't need to be dead headed. A wringing tail, toss of the head, etc, was considered normal. There weren't exact strides to count, and the horse's were jumped over '20' wide jumps' not so they wouldn't run out (if they were on Ace they wouldn't have anyways)because those wider jumps were what you were going to see on a hunt more often than a 10'-12' wide manicured white rail fence with pretty mums hanging from them. The jumps that weren't wide were pretty darned skinny too, LOL! And we somehow managed to keep our top, better than average horses back then from running out on them without drugs. It was called training...for both horse and rider. You didn't start lessons in April with the thought of getting into the show ring before the end of the season. And perching and posing wasn't heard of, effective riding was. At least that was MY experience with these horses in this sport at that time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
80's Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

LimoWrek
Dec. 21, 2003, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MistyBlue:
LimoWrek:
"Those people who think horses from the 60's or whatever never got drugs are WRONG. All of the good ones that won a lot got ace. And bute. and a TON of other stuff. They jumped in the first years as 3 year olds. They ran the horses at jumps that were 20' wide and had wings so they coudn't run out. It wasn't a 'golden age' of hunters."

Well, I will agree that it wasn't unheard of for horses in the 60's and 70's to have a little chemical help for competition. But it also wasn't exactly the "norm" it seems to be today. Not ALL of the 'good ones that won" got a "ton of everyhting." That definitely be a gross exaggeration, to the extreme. Ace wasn't as prevelant as today, because hunters back then didn't need to be dead headed. A wringing tail, toss of the head, etc, was considered normal. There weren't exact strides to count, and the horse's were jumped over '20' wide jumps' not so they wouldn't run out (if they were on Ace they wouldn't have anyways)because those wider jumps were what you were going to see on a hunt more often than a 10'-12' wide manicured white rail fence with pretty mums hanging from them. The jumps that weren't wide were pretty darned skinny too, LOL! And we somehow managed to keep our top, better than average horses back then from running out on them without drugs. It was called training...for both horse and rider. You didn't start lessons in April with the thought of getting into the show ring before the end of the season. And perching and posing wasn't heard of, effective riding was. At least that was MY experience with these horses in this sport at that time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know, I was there back then. People who had been riding 4 months were showing in the 3'6". You didn't hack your horses often, you jumped every time. The horses could be short strided to a degree because you didn't have to make the strides.

The good riders (the best of the best) could show pretty much unbroke race track horses after a month of training in the first years. They were not broke horses.

Today we are MUCH more concerned about the horse and its well being. We inject their joints. Everything is very much more fine tuned.

Abuse has always been around, but I do think that most people play by the rules now. They give the legal ammounts of medication, which don't mask true lameness.

All in all, I'd say the horses are much better off and are MUCH MUCH more broke.

----
Limo Wrek.

LimoWrek
Dec. 21, 2003, 03:46 PM
Oh, sorry for going a bit off topic.

----
Limo Wrek.

War Admiral
Dec. 21, 2003, 03:48 PM
Interesting - my recollection is that we had just as many drug suspensions but they were all for bute and banamine, which were not yet legal. Oh, and the ever-ready reserpine would crop up occasionally too...

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

LimoWrek
Dec. 21, 2003, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
Interesting - my recollection is that we had just as many drug suspensions but they were all for bute and banamine, which were not yet legal. Oh, and the ever-ready reserpine would crop up occasionally too...

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


no no. BEFORE drug rules http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

----
Limo Wrek.

Ghazzu
Dec. 21, 2003, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
Interesting - my recollection is that we had just as many drug suspensions but they were all for bute and banamine, which were not yet legal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Banamine (flunixin meglumine) didn't exist in the '60's.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

MistyBlue
Dec. 21, 2003, 05:09 PM
LimoWrek...Maybe we grew up in different areas or with different types of trainers. But ALL the horses at our barn hacked, for their morning workouts. We rode one, ponied another. 4 daily. Then they were schooled on the flat. Each jumped once or twice a week. And in lessons, we had to earn our tack bnefore jumping or competing. So the horses were worked often, (like athletes) and were hacked often, and were ridden often without tack in lessons. (the mindset being you weren't allowed to compete until you could easily control your horse with or without reins - stirrups or saddle) So they were pretty broke, and greenies were only ever ridden by trainers. Not by other greenies. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
80's Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

War Admiral
Dec. 21, 2003, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:

Banamine (flunixin meglumine) didn't exist in the '60's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I defer to your better memory & superior knowledge - wasn't paying much attention b/c I sure the heck wasn't using anything on my horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The 70s were, however, when I developed a serious fondness for reading the suspension list!

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

CBoylen
Dec. 21, 2003, 07:17 PM
I'm a bit too young to personally recollect the 60's. However, I'm around plenty of people who are not, and at the top of the game Ace was then a mainstay. Not at lot, perhaps a 1/2 or 1 cc. When the drug rules were brought about by Ms. Sexton, that's when reserpine surfaced as the main alternative, eventually leading up to the first real drug infractions. Just another example of the effects of drug legistlation.
How about a combination of bute and banamine? That was legal not too long ago. 20 years ago everything went on plenty of Dex, but we called it Azium and no one thought anything about it, except knowing not to give it to ponies. Anyone remember Bells? When I was growing up it was so popular I named a kitten after it. Drugs are not new. Today we are better aware than ever of the effects of medication upon a horse, and of ways to manage our horses to their best physical condition. There is no need to look at the past through rose colored glasses. I think the state of horse care today is better than it has ever been.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

bubblese
Dec. 21, 2003, 10:47 PM
Three things.

1. To those that think that is is wrong to give a horse anything since they are not choosing it, is it not just as presumptuous to speak for them and say that they do not want anything?

2. In using Robaxin as a preventative measure, I am sorry if I was not clear enough. Some horses need it and it is part of their showing program. (Please don't start on the need part, it is a legal amount even if one does not agree with its use.) It is when the weather turns cold and nasty that we might give it as a preventative measure.

3. I do not understand why it is not possible to respect other programs that might use LEGAL amounts of a drug. I know that people feel quite strongly about this issue, but I don't understand why people feel the need to be rude to people who do not share their opinion. C. Boylen is very capable of sharing her opinion without being rude to anyone who does not share said opinion.

AWIP
Dec. 22, 2003, 05:24 AM
Bubblese

Legal or not ... I can't agree with robaxin as a preventative measure from my own personal experience as mentioned earlier on in the thread.
- Did using robaxacet (same muscle relaxing chemical + tylenol, good equivalent to robaxin +bute) let me keep riding? Yes.

- Should I have taken time off to heal, seen a chiroprachtor or at least a doctor instead of masking the symptoms? Yes

- Did this method contribute to greater concurrent joint problems?
Absolutely, if I ride on robaxacet ... my reflexes are off, I'm ineffective and if I jump my back and knees are rough for days afterwards. (Every time I've done this, my coach has pointed out all the things I'm not doing that I normally do without problem ... definite effect)

If jumping and riding impact is doing that to me at my weight, I hate to think what it is doing to a horse with the impact their joints take. I can accept bute, but not muscle relaxants that prevent the muscles from protecting the joints/ligaments/tendons the way they are supposed to. I see a possible cycle there, robaxin to alleviate the tight back muscles then Legend/adequan (sp) to alleviate the symptoms of the joints banging together, more robaxin to alleviate the tight back muscles from over compensating ...

Legal isn't necessarily right in my book, but that's me.

DMK
Dec. 22, 2003, 05:47 AM
work in progress - just as an FYI, the USEF legal amount of robaxin is so far below the therapeutic level and has such a short term effect that your very valid concern is significantly reduced.

And while your concern is still valid, there have been many occassions where vets have specifically prescribed a much higher dose of robaxin in conjunction with work to effectively treat certain muscle injuries. Now I am not saying that is a horse who should be showing, but clearly there are exceptions to your scenario.

Last point to consider is that robaxin is legal to give up to 6 hours prior to competition, and I am sure there are people who do give it that close to competing, but the vast majority of people that I know who use it, give it in the PM grain, meaning any positive effects are gone long before the wee hours of the morning are upon us.

I have certainly given it to an otherwise sound horse for no other reason than a 9X9 stall for 10-14 days, even with as much time as I can get them out of the stall, still stacks up unfairly when compared to their normal routine of 12X12 stalls with 12 hour turnout. I have also stopped giving it for no other reason than it is a) very expensive and b) it doesn't seem to do a damn thing at the legal levels, in fact I barely see a therapeutic effect at 2X that level.

"I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan

dogchushu
Dec. 22, 2003, 05:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:

Coca Cola, pain is NOT always an indication that "you are overdoing things." Some horses, and people, have physical deviations from perfection, that, while not stopping them from living an active life, may need to have some sort of "help" to keep them truly comfortable. These types of "unsoundnesses," which I call structural, are completely different from the unsoundnesses that come from overwork and poor management...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for making this distinction. The first two summers I had my mare, she was lame, lame, lame (barely even pasture sound). It wasn't from over showing--I don't show all that much and hadn't even started for the season in the years she was lame! It's just that she has some "structural issues" as you put it. Last summer, with Legend, special shoeing, and supplements, she never took a misstep.

It took three vets to find and fix her problems. The first was at a loss as to what to do. The second said "we should start injecting her" before even looking at the horse and wouldn't stray from that initial suggestion. The third vet visited her several times, examined her for hours each time, consulted with myself, my trainer and my farrier at length, and helped us develop a plan to keep the mare sound.

Yes, that plan involves drugs (Legend). The Legend is part of her plan to keep her sound enough to be a moderately worked (and rarely shown) amature horse. Without the Legend (and the other elements of her maintenance plan) I doubt she'd be sound even with no riding in another dry summer (she was that bad and that sensitive to hard ground).

So a bit of Legend, some corrective shoes, supplements, and stretching exercises keep a horse (who would otherwise be stumbing around in the pasture in pain) in a job that, by all accounts, she greatly enjoys.



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

Flash44
Dec. 22, 2003, 07:05 AM
I used to run feed for 48 race horses. At any given time, about 10% of these horses were on anything other than hay, grain and water. I don't think there is anything chemical you can give a horse that will make up for poor horsemanship.

keljo
Dec. 22, 2003, 08:51 AM
One question I posed earlier, for which I still have not seen an answer, is "are you giving these PRESCRIPTION drugs under your veterinarian's supervision and advice?". In other words, did your DVM tell you "give him drug X before you show" or are you just doing it on your own, because you think you know better, or some other trainer told you about it, or it was prescribed for one horse and now you just use it on twenty horses. If you're following the latter format, this would qualify as misuse of medication, no matter what the "legal amounts" are or "your program"--do you consider side effects, interactions, long-term effects, medical necessity? Have you read peer-reviewed studies on efficacy of these drugs for that condition? Until YOU have the medical background your DVM does, don't think that you know best. THAT is what worries me about this whole situation.
And to those who think that "other sports do it", or "other sports just bust the illegal uses"--I was a college athlete and was at an elite level in the junior ranks of my sport. I never saw drugs used that were meant for other purposes to "give that edge". I see it as kind of like the recent erythropoietin abuse by some athletes--has a legitimate medical use, but they're just using it for that "extra 4%".
No one will argue with making a horse comfortable with medically advised drugs or supplements, but there are many of us who are disgusted by this overuse of drugs so a few can get that "extra edge". You want an extra edge? Train for it! If I want an extra edge on a graduate exam, I study harder--and that is expected of my peers. If I want an extra edge in the show ring, I'll train for it--and that is what I expect of my peers there, too.

M. O'Connor
Dec. 22, 2003, 08:55 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Nicely said, keljo!

MCL

lauriep
Dec. 22, 2003, 09:11 AM
Flash, we already know that you qualify for sainthood in horse management. You don't have to keep rubbing the noses of the merely human caretakers in your perfection.

The other 99.9% of the posters here, me included, are mere humans and we acknowledge that we can and do make mistakes, hard though we try not to. That is not an excuse, just the real world.

But apparently the cloud you are on has removed you too far from the real world.

Geesh!

keljo, I'll attempt an answer to your question from my personal experience. The trainers I have worked for got their instructions/information from the vets who worked on their horses. They would follow those instructions to the letter, and if one therapy didn't work, they would work out another with the vet. By doing this, they learned a lot about certain drugs and combinations of drugs, and developed favorites. So,if a similar problem developed in another horse, they wouldn't necessarily call the vet again. They might try a previously tried and proven therapy, on their own. But only using drugs they had previously had experience with and knowledge of.

HOWEVER, there certainly are "trainers" out there who will try anything that comes down the pike, without any veterinary input, just because someone else told them it would work. And these are the ones you have to beware of.
Laurie

nycjumper
Dec. 22, 2003, 09:11 AM
As a newbie to the h/j world - I can't express how strongly this thread disturbs me.

It seems as though people are in favor of drugging horses who may have soundness issues, etc. Well - in my inexperienced opionion - doesn't this cloud the playing field? Shouldn't we want to reward the horses that are as close to structually perfect as possible? Shouldn't we want the naturally "calm" hunters to be rewarded & bred so that we can continue that temperment? All we're doing by "disguising" the horses that aren't 100% is muddying the waters on judging the truely great horses.

And again, in my newbie opinion - if your horse is sore from overwork - give him time off. Yes, I know its a business but 1 or 2 weeks off might give him an opportunity to really shine and impress that client down the road who knows he's 100% natural, not looking great b/c you've got him on 1 or 2 preventative LEGAL medications (let alone any of the illegal ones http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif)

Caveat - Deleted for clarity.....

[This message was edited by nycjumper on Dec. 22, 2003 at 01:10 PM.]

MHM
Dec. 22, 2003, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nycjumper:

CAVEAT - the above opinions are related to horses that are showing at the top levels. I see nothing wrong with giving bute, etc to lesson horses or pleasure horses or horses that aren't showing on the competitive circuits. We don't expect perfection from these horses & we don't judge them on it. They deserve an aspirin or two....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're saying that a good show horse has LESS of a right to be comfortable doing his job than a lesson horse? Or a less-talented show horse can get bute at a smaller show, but a great show horse can't? The great horse should be penalized for his talent?

That makes no sense to me. Any horse that works for a living deserves the same consideration as any other. No horse is perfect, whether it's a trail horse or the best horse in the world.

[This message was edited by MHM on Dec. 22, 2003 at 12:33 PM.]

Ghazzu
Dec. 22, 2003, 09:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
lemme get this straight--you think there's nopthing at all wrong with dumping 3 potent prescription anti-inflammatories into an animal at once?

Good grief.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't.. And I woudn't consider them potent. None of our horses go on anything other than banamine, perhaps with a bit of dex towards the end of a heavy showing period. Some of the ancient ones that do the 3' or the modified childrens go on 3. None would limp without them, they just are not at that 98% sound point that it takes to be a peak performance.

----
Limo Wrek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You may not consider them potent anti-inflammatories, but any pharmacologist worth his salt would.
Dexamethasone is about the most potent anti-inflammatory there is.

And giving a NSAID *and* dexamethasone concurrently, especially to a horse which is being stressed by being on the road and competing, is just asking for ulcers.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

nycjumper
Dec. 22, 2003, 09:56 AM
"So you're saying that a good show horse has LESS of a right to be comfortable doing his job than a lesson horse? Or a less-talented show horse can get bute at a smaller show, but a great show horse can't? The great horse should be penalized for his talent?"

MHM - Sorry - my point was exceptionally unclear http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif All horses have a right to be comfortable. I was trying to point out
that we look at these top show horses as horses that are as close to perfect as possible as opposed to lesson/schooling horses. If we are medicating them to deal with conformational issues or soundness issues - in my opinion - I think it makes it difficult to judge btwn those horeses that are naturally strong & sound & those that have taken the medicated route to get there. I guess I think that if I paid a lot of money for a top horse, I want to know that the horse is sound in & of himself - not because of a load of special shoeing, supplements, pain meds.

It just seems like we're making it so that horses who shouldn't neccesarily compete at that level (b/c of conformation or fitness or soundness issues) now can because of all the incidentals that they receive.

[This message was edited by nycjumper on Dec. 22, 2003 at 03:16 PM.]

Flash44
Dec. 22, 2003, 10:11 AM
It's pretty sad when those that stand up for what they feel is right and ethical get flamed for it, especially when the animals who are paying the price for our actions can't speak for themselves.

MHM
Dec. 22, 2003, 10:21 AM
You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, and you can spend your money on any horse you like. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That said, I think you'd find very few experienced horsemen who would view corrective shoeing or supplements or a gram of Bute on show days as anything that would give a horse an unfair advantage. Most would view these things as basic horse management techniques that allow a horse to perform his job to the best of his ability, whatever that may be.

Wacky illegal use of drugs is an entirely separate issue.

MHM
Dec. 22, 2003, 10:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
It's pretty sad when those that stand up for what they feel is right and ethical get flamed for it, especially when the animals who are paying the price for our actions can't speak for themselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just in case that was directed at me, I don't feel that I flamed anyone. Nyc originally stated (and has since edited) HER OPINION that not all horses should be entitled to the same level of therapeutic medication.

That theory, indeed, makes no sense TO ME, which is all I stated. No flames, IMO.

JustJump
Dec. 22, 2003, 11:07 AM
MHM, are you saying that the standard for elite horses at the top of their sport shouldn't be the highest?

I get what nycjumper means...

And yes, a horse that is better than the rest without needing enhancement to gain an edge certainly should be worth more than those who can't do without. In a sense, they already are, because someone is spending the money to provide those that don't naturally have "it" with the enhancements to perform as though they do. But the judge can't see the difference, because the "natural best" isn't allowed to shine above the rest, since the rest can all have their meds to bump them up a notch on the quality ladder.

Someone once proposed a double standard, where you could show on all the meds you want, no holds barred in division "A", while zero tolerance standards would apply for division "B." It would be interesting to see such an experiment proceed. And very interesting to compare data about the health status of the horses after a period of time has elapsed.

LimoWrek
Dec. 22, 2003, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
lemme get this straight--you think there's nopthing at all wrong with dumping 3 potent prescription anti-inflammatories into an animal at once?

Good grief.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't.. And I woudn't consider them potent. None of our horses go on anything other than banamine, perhaps with a bit of dex towards the end of a heavy showing period. Some of the ancient ones that do the 3' or the modified childrens go on 3. None would limp without them, they just are not at that 98% sound point that it takes to be a peak performance.

----
Limo Wrek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You may not consider them potent anti-inflammatories, but any pharmacologist worth his salt would.
Dexamethasone is about the most potent anti-inflammatory there is.

And giving a NSAID *and* dexamethasone concurrently, especially to a horse which is being stressed by being on the road and competing, is just asking for ulcers.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



We give everything gaustrogaurd anwayway while on the road. It gets expensive, but when a horse is traveling so much they need it (even if they didn't get medication they would need it).

----
Limo Wrek.

marianne
Dec. 22, 2003, 11:33 AM
well you know what they say: "better living through chemistry"

MHM
Dec. 22, 2003, 12:05 PM
Well, we can debate the idea of horse showing in Nirvana with new theoretical divisions til the turn of the next century.

The idea I objected to was that any horse should be less worthy of therapeutic medication than another horse, based on a different job description.

In the same way that a true humanitarian would accord all humans from paupers to presidents with the same level of respect and consideration, a true horseman would view all horses as equally worthy of the best possible care, whether the animal is a leadline pony or a top show horse.

I don't see the benefit of a double standard where the horses with less demanding jobs should be allowed more leeway than the top athlete. The competitive show horse is working for his living, just as the lesson horse does. Why should a Bute tablet be acceptable for one but not the other?

nycjumper
Dec. 22, 2003, 12:08 PM
mhm - didn't think you were flaming me so I'm guessing that comment wasn't directed towards you.
And my point was that top horses shouldn't NEED medicines on an everyday basis to address fitness/conformation/soundness issues. If they do, maybe they shouldn't be showing at that level.


I'm not snubbing the "average horse" - don't think I'll ever be lucky (or rich!) enough to have anything but the average horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just think the h/j world (from an outsider's opinion) has gotten WAY carried away with medicating to ensure "peak performance."

[This message was edited by nycjumper on Dec. 22, 2003 at 03:22 PM.]

CAJumper
Dec. 22, 2003, 12:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MHM:

That said, I think you'd find very few experienced horsemen who would view corrective shoeing or supplements or a gram of Bute on show days as anything that would give a horse an unfair advantage. Most would view these things as basic horse management techniques that allow a horse to perform his job to the best of his ability, whatever that may be.

Wacky illegal use of drugs is an entirely separate issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said, MHM.

I used to work for a training barn, and yes - the "8pm meds" took a long time to prepare (even at home). And NONE of these meds were illegal or used to calm horses or give them a competitive edge. They were supplements tailored to each horse's needs - ulcer meds, joint supplements, vitamins...things like that.

And I don't see anything wrong with choosing to give your horse a gram of bute at a show to help ease the aches that come from performing all day long. That's kind of like saying icing and wrapping legs at the end of the day gives an "unfair competitive advantage."

MHM
Dec. 22, 2003, 12:28 PM
The difference in our views is that I don't hold any horse to a higher standard. There's the perfect horse, which doesn't exist outside of the Breyer world, then there are the rest of the horses in the world, the ones who are living, breathing individuals. I only compare horses to their peers, not to some idealized version of equine perfection.

I don't expect any horse to be perfect, whether he's a lawn ornament or a winner at WEF. Each one is doing his own thing, and should be cared for in every possible way to ensure that he's able to do his best.

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Flash44
Dec. 22, 2003, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MHM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
It's pretty sad when those that stand up for what they feel is right and ethical get flamed for it, especially when the animals who are paying the price for our actions can't speak for themselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just in case that was directed at me, I don't feel that I flamed anyone. Nyc originally stated (and has since edited) HER OPINION that not all horses should be entitled to the same level of therapeutic medication.

That theory, indeed, makes no sense TO ME, which is all I stated. No flames, IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, not at all. I usually use quotes or name names if I am directing a post at a specific individual. I actually think I'm pretty much on the same page as you.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

marianne, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

CoolMeadows
Dec. 22, 2003, 12:33 PM
Icing and wrapping a horse's legs is unlikely to damage its kidneys or give it ulcers. I have nothing against people who want to give their horses a bute, I will admit to having done it myself toward the end of a long show season, on the last day of the shows, to a horse who ended up being Zone Champion. One bute, mostly because I was achy myself.

But I would still welcome a zero tolerance policy because maybe it starts as,"oh, he's been showing so hard, he deserves a bute." and then the almighty trainer says,"you know, so many of these other horses are just maaahhhvelous on dex and robaxin as well as a little bute, don't you think your Count De FruFru deserves more too?" And then those suspicions of reserpine and mag/cal are subdued with," he's just so happy here, that's why his little eyeballs are glazed over - he's relaxed!"

Sorry, I've seen it with my own eyes enough times to not kid myself that this doesn't happen, that legal medicating doesn't get abused by frequency and amounts, and that it doesn't lead to illegal drugging and other questionable horse care and training tactics. I've watched illegal shots being given by actual chemists, with masking agents that will prevent them from testing positive. I've seen horses with shock collars on their girths as a punishment for stopping. I've seen a hunter on illegal meds fall over. I'm sick of it. Don't kid yourselves, you're not doing your horses any favours.

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

Ghazzu
Dec. 22, 2003, 12:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MHM:
I don't see the benefit of a double standard where the horses with less demanding jobs should be allowed more leeway than the top athlete. The competitive show horse is working for his living, just as the lesson horse does. Why should a Bute tablet be acceptable for one but not the other?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the lesson horse is showing, it should recieve no more medication than the A circuit hunter.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Janet
Dec. 22, 2003, 12:43 PM
MHM,
I am going to put what I THINK nycjumper is trying to say in slightly different terms.

There are (at least) two considerations:
What is good for the horse
A fair playing field.

Sometimes these two considerations work together, but sometimes they are in opposition.

In showing/competing, they need to be balanced.

In a horse that is NOT competing (e.g. a school horse, no matter how young or old), the "fair playing field" consideration is irrelevant.

Therefor the rules, and the "right" decisions for a horse in competition may be different from the "right" decisions for a horse that is not competing.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

nycjumper
Dec. 22, 2003, 12:43 PM
I don't expect any horse to be perfect but I do expect more from certain horses than others. My criteria for buying a GP jumper is certainly different than my criteria for a beginner lesson horse. I

We're all in agreement on thinking that horses should have the best quality of life - perhaps we're just differing on how to get that quality.

Let's just agree to disagree http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

MHM
Dec. 22, 2003, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nycjumper:
I don't expect any horse to be perfect but I do expect more from certain horses than others. My criteria for buying a GP jumper is certainly different than my criteria for a beginner lesson horse. I

&lt;I'd still compare the GP horse to his peers- other GP horses, not to a fictional ideal.&gt;

We're all in agreement on thinking that horses should have the best quality of life - perhaps we're just differing on how to get that quality.

&lt;Done.&gt;

Let's just agree to disagree http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And done. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

nycjumper
Dec. 22, 2003, 01:33 PM
Janet,
Thanks for summing my posts up much more succinctly & eloquently than I could. Am fighting the flu/flu medicine & am a bit less than coherent... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

findeight
Dec. 22, 2003, 02:21 PM
OK.
This may not be popular but I will say what I think.

I first rode into a show ring in 1968 and have since seen all manner of disgusting treatment ranging from shock collars on Reiners and electric wire over jumps to bleeding, hanging, depriving of water and actual beating.

BUT not everybody does this type of thing.

Drug abuse, sure. Lots of it BUT NOT EVERY BNT does it.

I think many in this thread are painting with a very broad brush and condemning all who ride a hore into the ring based on something they read or heard from somebody who knew somebody else.

Others are on the bandwagon of absolutely nothing at home or on the road...if you do compete at high levels on older horses regularly and don't need to use some Bute or a joint health supplement including Legend or Adequan?? That's great.
Don't condemn the rest of us who do use what we humans take ourselves before competition as we age.

Horses may not be able to make the choice between living as they were created or life in a show barn....but that "natural life" meant 15 years or so then lion meat.
Now they can be useful and lovingly cared for into their late 20s...and the ones I know are VERY happy.

I try not to but do get offended by the suggestions that all who show successfully are involved in some kind of drug racketeering made by those who have no knowledge of what it really takes to get a horse to the AA rings. I get offended by those who state it's "wrong" to even show a horse if they have to live in a 10x10 stall.
I get offended by those who think that a perfect trip is only the result of drugs and not the hours of toil as well as selecting the proper horse in the first place.

I say again, my 14 year old gets Bute on the road only..an oral joint health regime at home. That's ALL.
But if you saw one of my (rare) best trips, what would you think?

May not be popular, but just because a horse is at a show as in that PP statement, doesn't mean it's not entitled to the absolute best in legal nutritional supplements and a bit of Bute..all declared of course.

If you have any DIRECT knowledge of anybody abusing, cheating or overusing drugs-and you must know specifically what they are doing-for the horse's sake SAY SOMETHING.

I will not stand for any cheating or abuse and will be at the show office in a heartbeat..and have been there.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Weatherford
Dec. 22, 2003, 02:22 PM
I have just spent the last four nights watching live broadcasts from Olympia in London - one of hte largest indoor shows around.

International (FEI) competition, NO DRUGS at all... and I saw horses competing 4 and 5 of five nights - and winning!

And winning at a level where a FRACTION of an inch is the difference between a LOT of money and a crash - FAR more important/relative than the fraction in a hunter class...(the fences in the final GP were well into the 5'+ range.. the Puissance was 7'+ and the six bar wound up over 6'!

These horse are worked hard and are extremely sound - and looked spectacular - even though this is the end of the season for most of them...

I think a number of people have stated WHY the hunter trainers feed the need to medicate - and, it really does come back to blue ribbons...(and greed, frankly IMHO)

SO, we get back to the issue of CHANGING THE JUDGING. Now, WHO is going to write a resolution for the USEF stating the desired AIMS of each hunter division, and recommending the WEIGHTs of each judging issue??

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

easyjumper1
Dec. 22, 2003, 02:54 PM
Weatherford - I just wanted to say, I watched it too. I loved Helena Weinberg's Silwa Little Gun. He looked so happy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, and enjoying his job.

To make this on topic, I completely agree with you. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

ESG
Dec. 22, 2003, 02:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
lemme get this straight--you think there's nopthing at all wrong with dumping 3 potent prescription anti-inflammatories into an animal at once?

Good grief.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't.. And I woudn't consider them potent. None of our horses go on anything other than banamine, perhaps with a bit of dex towards the end of a heavy showing period. Some of the ancient ones that do the 3' or the modified childrens go on 3. None would limp without them, they just are not at that 98% sound point that it takes to be a peak performance.

----
Limo Wrek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You may not consider them potent anti-inflammatories, but any pharmacologist worth his salt would.
Dexamethasone is about the most potent anti-inflammatory there is.

And giving a NSAID *and* dexamethasone concurrently, especially to a horse which is being stressed by being on the road and competing, is just asking for ulcers.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



We give everything gaustrogaurd anwayway while on the road. It gets expensive, but when a horse is traveling so much they need it (even if they didn't get medication they would need it).

----
Limo Wrek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People, I'd swear this person is a troll. Who gives Gastroguard without need? This is just way beyond the pale of credibility, IMHO.

But just in case it isn't a troll, didn't I hear something a few years ago about a drug rule limiting a horse to two NSAIDS, even within legal limits? Or is my CRS disease progressed that far?

poltroon
Dec. 22, 2003, 03:00 PM
I have to say I'm troubled reading this thread. The original show hunter was judged on his soundness, suitablity, and fitness to jump out in the field. If your horse would drift 6" right without his meds, honestly, he deserves to lose to a horse that will jump straight without meds.

I believe in allowing the use of certain theraputic medications for show horses - when they are needed. I have no problem with someone using them for a specific situation for a specific horse. I have a BIG problem with a practice that gives a horse medications for EVERY show that is not in the horse's long term interest.

All these drugs have side effects. Some are less troublesome than others. So while I have no trouble with dex after a spider bite, I have a very big problem with a horse who is given dex on a regular basis "just in case". Regardless of level playing field, or other considerations, even low level drugs like bute have negative effects on a horse when given constantly.

And then I look to other disicplines, disciplines where people also love their horses and want to make them just as comfortable, and I just don't see that they need as many medications to do it. Maybe it just is that the hunters have come to be less about "Horse" and more about "Show." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

I think Weatherford is right about fitness, too. Horses can be QUIET and FIT at the same time, especially if they have turnout and plenty of chances to see the sights and move out a bit. We eventers are masters of that particular balance. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CBoylen
Dec. 22, 2003, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
People, I'd swear this person is a troll. Who gives Gastroguard without need? This is just way beyond the pale of credibility, IMHO.

But just in case it isn't a troll, didn't I hear something a few years ago about a drug rule limiting a horse to two NSAIDS, even within legal limits? Or is my CRS disease progressed that far?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no idea if it's a troll or not, but regarding the rest of your post....
There are plenty of people that give gastrogard as a compliment to bute as a preventative measure toward ulcers. I have been in a few barns where this was the standard practice for horses receiving a gram of bute to also get a tube of gastroguard on show nights. I don't continue this practice, as my horse is on neigh lox, but I do do the gastroguard program once a year, as she had an ulcer problem that was very pronounced as a younger horse (while not on bute or even showing). So, that's not an indication of being a troll.
As to the rule, that is correct, but if one chooses one may give two NSAIDS (ie bute OR banamine, plus ketofen or arquel or naproxin) and also dex, as it is not an NSAID (being corticosteroidal), and robaxin (methocarbamol) if they so choose. Guidelines are available under downloads at the USEF site, if you want to be more familiar with the subject.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

dogchushu
Dec. 22, 2003, 06:32 PM
Very well said findeight.

My horse doesn't need bute to show. I'm very lucky that way. However, as I mentioned earlier, she's on a Legend regime. It's not to get her to jump 6" better (good heavens--if you've seen my riding you'd know that kind of perfection is the least of my worries, lol). It's because she just isn't perfect and needs that to stay sound and comfortable.

Does that mean she doesn't deserve to compete? She's a great ammy horse who goes around quietly and puts up with my errors without being drugged into oblivion or lunged to death. But she does need regular maintenance with a completely legal theraputic substance.

I do know many amateurs who are riding older, seasoned campaigners. These are horses that are wholly appropriate for their ammy's abilities (and, therefore, don't need to be drugged or lunged to near catatonia to get the rider around a course) and really enjoy their jobs.

However, many of these older horses do come off a long trailer ride or a night in a stall a bit stiff. So they get the occassional gram of bute--not enough to cause gastric problems, just the occassional tablet when the horse isn't in an ideal situation. Again, these ammys are far from the point of being a mere 6" away from perfection! They're just trying to find 8 good spots, get their strides, make the changes, and have some fun. The bute is for the horse's comfort.

I hardly think they don't deserve to show simply because they're a bit stiff. These are horses that enjoy their jobs and are productive and loved. And again, the bute is for the horse's comfort--not to help the riders win.

Of course there are people who show too much and don't give their horses the time off some older (or even younger) horses need to stay healthy and sound.

But I don't think zero tolerance for things like Bute is the answer. I'd hate to see some of these very good, very amateur-appropriate horses denied a chance to do their jobs or go around uncomfortable when a mere gram of bute could keep them happy and productive.



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

poltroon
Dec. 22, 2003, 06:35 PM
C.Boylen is right that a lot of people are giving GastroGuard also. I guess I should be happy that they care for their horse's well-being enough to pony up the $$ to do so.

Still, I can't help thinking that show hunters are getting treated, well, like old people. We're worried about your heart so we give you premarin [maybe that one didn't work out so well]. And bones and cholesterol so some drugs for that. Oh, and you're experiencing some memory loss? Don't stop the other drugs - I've got a pill for that. Depressed? Let me write you a prescription. Some nausea? You bet.

And then what really happens is that all these drugs interact to make Grandma a little unsteady on her feet... a small price to pay for the miracles of modern medicine, right? But then one day she slips and falls and breaks her hip. Hip fractures have a rather horrifyingly large rate of mortality within a year of fracture, something like 25%.

Espresso in the morning, sleeping pills at night. What's wrong with that? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

CBoylen
Dec. 22, 2003, 06:39 PM
I wanted to make a few more points, just to provide some more material for your discussion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I guess I think that if I paid a lot of money for a top horse, I want to know that the horse is sound in & of himself - not because of a load of special shoeing, supplements, pain meds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure how to take this statement. I presume when you purchase a horse you run a complete pre-purchase including a blood screen, and are therefore aware of his issues. And, again, we're discussing sound horses, who compete on a day or two of medication, not horses that receive medication on a daily basis ad infinitum. No horse in my experience has ever received medication at home unless suffering from serious injury. If they show on medication, they recieve it only the night before they show, and one has the rest of the time to evaluate their soundness while working on their training.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And yes, a horse that is better than the rest without needing enhancement to gain an edge certainly should be worth more than those who can't do without. In a sense, they already are, because someone is spending the money to provide those that don't naturally have "it" with the enhancements to perform as though they do. But the judge can't see the difference, because the "natural best" isn't allowed to shine above the rest, since the rest can all have their meds to bump them up a notch on the quality ladder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you can 'bump one up' through medication, I suggest you sell tickets http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Seriously, if you review my statements you'll notice that I always refer to the horse as being the best it can be. Meaning, one can provide a horse with the means to demonstrate all its talent, by addressing carefully any issues it might have physically preventing it from doing its best. However, one cannot through legal medication (or illegal, IMO) make any horse a better horse than it started out.

I'd also like to ask when it was that anyone vetted a 'perfect' horse. I haven't found one yet, but if I do, believe me I'll let you know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif We complain about horse prices now, since the ones with the 'total package' carry price tags into the millions of dollars. The total package being here a good jumping, good moving, relatively quiet, and working sound animal given all of the legal options available. Can you just imagine the price of the average horse if those with minor issues were taken out of the picture and only the perfectly conformed, perfectly sound horses were able to show regularly?

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Zaboobafoo
Dec. 22, 2003, 08:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
Espresso in the morning, sleeping pills at night. What's wrong with that? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This really made me laugh. I do this!! But I digress...

I got a webshots album! Yay! Go see : http://community.webshots.com/user/piggiejump

LimoWrek
Dec. 22, 2003, 10:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:

But just in case it isn't a troll, didn't I hear something a few years ago about a drug rule limiting a horse to two NSAIDS, even within legal limits? Or is my CRS disease progressed that far?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gastogaurd is used because as ANY horse show vet will tell you, moving around and showing gives horses ulcers. So does bute. We can prevent that by giving gastrogaurd... So we do.

----
Limo Wrek.

Weatherford
Dec. 23, 2003, 03:46 AM
So, if a horse is a little stiff coming off the trailer, why not take him for a hack and loosen him up?

If you horse is prone to ulcers - or you are concerned about them, why not put your feed tubes, water, and hay on the floor of the stall (or close to it) (If you care concerned about the stall getting dirty, use clean manure bucket for the feed and/or hay and/or water? (It has been proven with racehorses that this mimics grazing, which releases an enzyme needed for the prevention of ulcers.) Rent turnout space at the big shows - YES it is expensive, but cheaper than vet bills and drugs!

Have you checked all the alternatives while on the road? My mom had a twenty acre field near Lake Placid, and in close to thirty years, only ONE trainer every asked to use it for turnout between the two weeks....

If your horse runs around on TO, find him or her a companion...

Etc...

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AWIP
Dec. 23, 2003, 04:40 AM
Weatherford ... you're my hero http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Well said.

ESG
Dec. 23, 2003, 05:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:

But just in case it isn't a troll, didn't I hear something a few years ago about a drug rule limiting a horse to two NSAIDS, even within legal limits? Or is my CRS disease progressed that far?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gastogaurd is used because as ANY horse show vet will tell you, moving around and showing gives horses ulcers. So does bute. We can prevent that by giving gastrogaurd... So we do.

----
Limo Wrek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it isn't the moving around and showing that gives horses ulcers. It's bad management with some, and a genetic tendency with others. There are horses that never set foot on circuit that have ulcers, and there are plenty of top show horses (I've several friends who are GP riders whose strings don't get GastroGuard or Robaxin prophylactically) that never have a need for it. I would think that if your horses are gettting ulcers because of the meds you give them so that they can keep going to win yet another expensive piece of satin, one might think to sit down and examine one's management program and priorities. In short, which is more important to you; perpetuating your reputation as a "winning" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif trainer, or the health and longevity of your and your client's mounts?

A question for you; how long does your average horse last on circuit with your management practices? Two seasons? Four? Or do you buy and sell with a high turnover and not keep them for any appreciable time? I'm really, really curious................. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

JustJump
Dec. 23, 2003, 05:46 AM
&lt;&lt; Can you just imagine the price of the average horse if those with minor issues were taken out of the picture and only the perfectly conformed, perfectly sound horses were able to show regularly?&gt;&gt;

So, one reason for allowing medication is to keep the prices of top horses down? And it's wrong to provide rewards to those who manage to produce an inherently better horse? Why SHOULDN'T a better horse have a higher price tag?

&lt;&lt;moving around and showing gives horses ulcers. So does bute. We can prevent that by giving gastrogaurd... So we do.&gt;&gt;

And, we administer Gastroguard so that we can get around the fact that bute causes ulcers... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Think: "house of cards" .

Flash44
Dec. 23, 2003, 06:26 AM
Ditto Weatherford, poltroon.

CBoylen
Dec. 23, 2003, 07:06 AM
JustJump, a better horse should, and does, have a higher price tag. You'll notice that I mentioned the price of the AVERAGE horse. The better horse is not necessarily also the sounder horse. My point is, and this is just a point for discussion, that, now, there are lots of horses that are cheaper because they have management issues, and lots of horses that have no management issues that are cheaper because they're not as good. The very expensive ones are both good and easy to manage, or so extraordinarily good that a buyer doesn't mind dealing with inherent issues. So, if one were to 'level the playing field, as has been mentioned on this thread, it is my opinion that one also has to consider the effects upon other aspects of the industry. One of these aspects is horse prices.

Those horses of an average ability would quickly become high six figure horses, to meet the demand created by the loss of the less inherently sound good ones. It's hard enough as it is to find a horse with all the right qualifications now, and those that have them are certainly expensive enough. If you restrict the supply by expanding those qualifications, prices will go up. It's inevitable.

That was also the effect of the original drug rules, while we're on the subject. Some of those old winners that went on ace disappeared, and suddenly a quieter horse was necessary. As we all know, a good jumping, good moving, quiet horse is about as rare as a similar unicorn, so now we have the kind of prices that we do today.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

pwynnnorman
Dec. 23, 2003, 07:26 AM
Wow. Eight pages.

Actually, this is hardly the first time a thread like this has developed--and it won't be the last. I think I remember going ballistic three or four years ago over the same willingness to ignore the essential issue here.

Granted, I haven't had time to read pages 5-7, so I may be wrong about this, but...

Has anyone here addressed the one question I asked:

What do you think would be the reaction if I sent this thread to YOUR local newspaper, television station or whatever?

Look, folks, I get irate about this subject not because I'm bleeding over horse abuse. My problem is the way the average amateur or pro on and off these boards just flat out refuses to see what is happening to the industry--indeed, the shrinking market that results from this "who cares what they think" attitude.

C. Boylen and supporters from that side, answer my question. I'd really, really like to hear how you analyze this issue and this industry from THAT perspective.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

Flash44
Dec. 23, 2003, 07:37 AM
The Baltimore Sun, I think, is too busy pursuing their personal vendettas against slot machines at the race tracks as well as against Johns Hopkins University Hospital to concern themselves with horse showing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Wasn't there a book/movie about gymnasts and figure skaters called something like Little Girls in Pretty Boxes?

CBoylen
Dec. 23, 2003, 07:42 AM
I thought I did answer your question a few pages ago. I don't think the story is interesting enough to inspire anyone but those of directly involved in the industy. Riders playing by the rules of their sport. Yawn. However, I will say that spectators are free to walk around our shows. If you're so concerned about 'overflowing' sharps boxes, which granted some are because first of all shows don't place them well and second of all people are lazy about walking further to less empty ones, are you out there covering them with tea cozys? I've never had a spectator ask about anything involving medication or sharps boxes, and I've been asked some pretty bizarre questions http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
I'm also unclear as to your point about a shrinking market. Perhaps you could expand upon it a bit. Where is this market? In the spectator base? They're generally the mildly curious or the already involved on some level horseperson. Are you referring to the so-called grass roots market? I'm quite sure that they're equally making use of their legal medications. The rest of the world, whether I care or not about what they think, does not think of us at all.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

pwynnnorman
Dec. 23, 2003, 07:46 AM
Oh, no you don't, Flash! I'm not going to let you obscure the issue here by implying "well, they wouldn't publish it anyway."

It's not about whether they, literally, publish anything or not. It's strictly a "what if".

So, as long as it is not exposed, is your answer another "who cares?" I know that's not the case. It's probably more like, "since it wouldn't get published, why bother thinking about what such exposure would result in...AND WHY."

C. Boylen, we published simultaneously, so I didn't see your response.

Again, though, I'm going to hammer away at the point: Would you like to hear the statement that is the title of this thread shouted from the rooftops of the sporting world?

WOULD YOU?

[And, please, don't hide behind the presumed ignorance or presumed disinterest of a presumed populace. I'm inferring something internal here as well as external, but there are certain words I don't want to use to establish that.]

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

[This message was edited by pwynnnorman on Dec. 23, 2003 at 10:56 AM.]

Rubs Not Pats
Dec. 23, 2003, 08:03 AM
I have read this thread with interest and also have to say Wow at the diverse opinions. I have a few comments:

First Ghazzu is right Steriods should never be mixed with NSAIDS even with gastroguard.In my opinion, dex has a place but given the potential for problems(founder), should not be given without discussion with a vet.

Second, How many of those commenting really know what their horses get? I would imagine some of you would be a little shocked if you knew. And I would imagine that after you have gone, if your horse had a hard day, your trainer who is well intentioned might give a little bute to help your horse with stiffness. Is this wrong?

Third, how many of you out there actually show heavily? I mean go from show to show? And not show up after your horse has been at the grounds for a few days? I do this with youngsters, those with no jumping and showing in hand and you know what, they come off a 6-10 hour trailer ride and they are muscle sore! Now there is a shocker! My two and three year olds, who have no problems will sometimes be stiff. I did USDF regionals two years ago and asked about the meds policy, I was told FEI applied, NO DRUGS. I did not bute and my horses after a day and a half of recooperating were still not right and did not perform to the level they could have. Does this mean they are lame nags, I think not.

There is no black and white here, some things should be stopped. When I stop and think what we ask these animals to do, it's amazing! Let's face it horses are not jumping around courses in the wild. There is nothing wrong with determining where we can help our companions be a little more comfortable. And no, bute/banamine isn't goint to make a lame horse sound.

As a side note, I have seen many a hack where there are horses who are obviously off. This should stop. Horses who canter out of the ring so the judges don't see a jog is wrong. If these animals are not sound and are not comfortable with minor amounts of bute, then I do think it is a welfare issue and people are not doing right by the animal.

Sorry if I have offended anyone or everyone!

Flash44
Dec. 23, 2003, 09:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
Oh, no you don't, Flash! I'm not going to let you obscure the issue here by implying "well, they wouldn't publish it anyway."

It's not about whether they, literally, publish anything or not. It's strictly a "what if".

So, as long as it is not exposed, is your answer another "who cares?" I know that's not the case. It's probably more like, "since it wouldn't get published, why bother thinking about what such exposure would result in...AND WHY."

Dec. 23, 2003 at 10:56 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you read way too much into my post. My first sentence was poking fun at the Balto Sun. My second sentence was in support of an expose, pointing out it was successfully done with the subject being gymnastics/figure skating.

CAJumper
Dec. 23, 2003, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Again, though, I'm going to hammer away at the point: Would you like to hear the statement that is the title of this thread shouted from the rooftops of the sporting world?

_WOULD YOU?_

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really wouldn't see a problem with that. I know that illegal drugs are a problem on the circuit. However, I believe that the title of this thread is referring to legal meds which help keep our horses comfortable throughout their demanding careers. I really think that the general population would understand the concept of "an aspirin at the end of a hard day."

And Rubs Not Pats makes some excellent points as well.

Tiramit
Dec. 23, 2003, 09:48 AM
OK, I'll take a crack at answering your question head-on, Pwynn.

In today's U.S. where Pet's Mart has an entire aisle devoted to over-the-counter DOG only products for joints, stomach ailments, coat enhancements, pain, etc., no, I do not think that people would be shocked to learn that equine athletes receive some kind of pharmaceutical assitance to ease competition soreness and / or to strengthen their immune systems. Actually, IMHO, an ATHLETE (of any species) in today's world would be a standout if it didn't take an aspirin equivalent for muscle soreness or a supplement for joint pain. I'm not saying I condone it, but it is the norm of today's competition environment. So no, I don't think there would be a rise of public outrage against pharmaceuticals easing the MINOR pain of horses who are, well, competing athletes on legal drugs in legal dosages.

Having said that, if a reporter was to break a story on cocaine usage or the horrors of trying to ALTER an equine athlete's typical competition performance through the use of drugs, then yes, you would have a story. And I would be right there (along with most of this board, it appears) in the mob to flog the person who defiled the image of our sport.

The bottom line is that there are wicked people in every aspect of life, not just the horse show world, and the papers tend to devote column inches to those degenerates. The problem with our public image is that we basically don't have one, good or bad. Unlike other countries in the world, the U.S. does not embrace its horse showing athletes like we think it should. Therefore, the few related spectators we do have will probably understand that animal lovers (one could make a case that the majority of horse show folks do love animals, horses in particular) will take efforts to make their animals comfortable.

To sum it all up, I think you must first have an image before it can be tarnished. If you can convince the press that we exist and are newsworthy, then I'll worry about the small segment of society who could ruin it for the rest of us. Right now I'm just mad that there are greedy people out there who harm horses! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

**Note, while I don't necessarily agree with the nightly meds program (I do have one retired grand prix jumper who is on Corta-flex, but that's it), as a person who used to show every weekend, I can understand the circuit riders's argument. I have given bute to sore show horses, albeit AFTER the competition.

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

LH
Dec. 23, 2003, 12:37 PM
Use versus abuse

I think what many on this board are missing is the difference between responsible use of supplements and legal medications, versus overuse and abuse of them. It is legal to use them in relatively small doses (trust me, compared to the 1970's, the doses we use now are miniscule compared to what was used then of even legal meds) to aid the comfort and wellbeing of the horses. It is not legal to overuse them, or to use them in prohibited combinations.

Do you mean to tell me that you, yourself, always feel the same when you travel and sleep in a hotel, as you do at home? Do you honestly believe that between you and your horse, that YOU are the true athlete in that combination? Can all of you who criticize the use of legal medications in a responsible way say that you don't work any harder at a horse show than you do at home? And can you say that you have never, ever taken motrin/aspirin/tylenol at a horse show to ease an aching muscle, or that you never drink a beer to relax?

Noone is condoning the use of meds in a way that would mask inherent unsoundness or gain an illegal advantage. What C.Boylen, myself, and others are trying to communicate is that there is no prohibition -- morally, under the rules, or otherwise - to give horses supplements (yes, those are technically drugs, too) and medications intended and designed to assist the horse's well being (for example, reduce inflammation) and allow them to perform at their best -- that is their best, not in a way that is not natural to the horse.

I love my horses, but I know that my old jumper is more comfortable on day 2 on a little banamine, and that my young hunter, who needs a short (10 min) lunge to get rid of the sillies may play or act up a little that may make him a little muscle sore, and that the legal amount of robaxin and/or banamine will allow him to feel like himself again.

I am concerned about the potential affect of bute (and stress) on stomachs and potential ulcers, and my vets help me with those issues for supplement purposes, too. I heed that advice!

Yes, I handwalk and graze my horses all day long at the show, and do what ever I can to assist their well being, but whether you call it a supplement or a medication, if it is intended to, and does, improve their comfort and well being, with no detriment to their health, then any criticism is unwarranted.

And I will also say that I am very, very attentive to this issue because I do all of my own care, own meds, etc., and I am personally very educated about the drug rules. Having just 2-3 horses on the road to care for, with various show schedules, and trying to time their medications, can be complicated -- if it's too complicated, I just give it the night before, and hope that it has the therapeutic effect that it is designed to provide at the time of competition.

Flash44
Dec. 23, 2003, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LH:
_Use versus abuse_

or that you never drink a beer to relax?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a major food group for me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LH, you make many good points. Legal amounts of meds are allowable to keep a horse comfortable enough to compete.

My point is (and this is a general statement, not directed at anyone), the soreness the horse is suffering from can in some instances be healed or avoided by giving the horse time off, or not subjecting it to such a schedule. However, when the owner/rider/trainer insists on a show schedule that causes the horse to become uncomfortable, and the owner/rider/trainer chooses to medicate rather than stay home, you enter the gray area where the long term health and well being of the horse may not be the number one concern.

Also, giving the horse any meds, even those allowed, with the intent to alter the horse's behavior (making the ammy's horse stop pulling, etc) is against the rules.

LH
Dec. 23, 2003, 01:16 PM
Flash44 -- I think this is where you and I agree. My point would be that if the legal amount of meds doesn't effectively combat soreness so that the horse is comfortable, then the horse is too sore to show! If the horse is that sore, legal meds will NOT make it sound. Period. I don't think that if a horse is that sore that you can medicate enough (legally) to make it sound. If it's that sore, it will NOT pass the jog, and for unrated (unjogged) divisions, a sore horse will not be a fun, pretty horse. Maybe I'm being naive, but I've showed with many different trainers over the years, and I have never been with one who would "overmedicate" using even the legal stuff. I'm sure it's done, but I don't know trainers who would risk their entire livelihood for getting that one amateur in the ring.

And today's legal meds don't alter the horse's behavior, IMO. They may reduce swelling or inflamation, which will make the horse its usual comfortable self, and make the trip more relaxed just by the horse feeling good (where a sore horse may have a tense, tail wringing trip in the ring, with a swap, a stop, cross-cantering, etc.) I don't know of any meds that "make" a tense horse more relaxed or stop a puller from pulling, but I do know that bute in some horses makes their mouths "harder" and makes them pull then! And although Robaxin will relax (tight) back muscles, it won't have any effect on already relaxed, loose back muscles. Yes, Dex/Azium does create a "relaxed" effect in some horses, but it also has absolutely no effect (except anti-inflammatory) on others.

woudn'tYOUliketoknow?
Dec. 23, 2003, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LH:
_Use versus abuse_

or that you never drink a beer to relax?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Also, giving the horse any meds, even those allowed, with the intent to alter the horse's behavior (making the ammy's horse stop pulling, etc) is against the rules.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, that's just really annoying to me. I'm sorry but I've finally said it, I find statements like these annoying.

Once again, we're going to make that confounded analogy of horses to people- yes I know, it's been beaten TO DEATH...but let's try this one.

Person A is a professional athlete. They practice during the week, but participate in competitions over the weekend period (this could be applicable to almost any sport). While person A might practice hard during the week, and train diligently, their practice just doesn't quite compare to the stress that a strenuous competition would put on them. Therefore, their muscles might be sore and they might need a mild painkiller.

The same goes for a horse. But what gets me is saying that "legal meds given to alter a horse's performace". Take a horse with a slightly sore back (first making sure the saddle fits properly, proper pads, the rider's position isn't hurting the horse, etc) This horse might be 100% sound...shoot, it might be the best mover in the class. It also might jump great too. But if it's back is sore...it might pin it's ears...or maybe go with its head a little too high. Even though it's perfectly sound, the owner OWES this horseo to get it's back injected, and maybe have it receive robaxin in addtion to that. Now, for all of you that shout "Give it time off! Retire it! It must not be suitable to it's career!"- Would you STOP on account of some mild lower back pain?

Another example...a horse that is a bit foot sore- for whatever reason (ie- the ground where the horse is showing is harder than the ground where he lives, etc) after the first day of showing MIGHT land after a jump and play a bit because it hurts their feet to land- ESPECIALLY a nice horse that jumps hard. A gram of bute could easily remedy that.

The point is, a comfortable horse is going to go better than an uncomfortable horse. Period. We are trying to make our horses MORE comfortable because we CARE about them- while it is a fact that it can make a horse go better, as Chanda said, meds can NOT turn a 10,000 horse into a 100,000 horse.

Also I think a point that is important to make is that most of these big show horses *do* get time off, so to speak. They might be showing every weekend, but most people just don't jump during the week. I know when I was a junior my horse would usually show Friday, Saturday, and Sunday...meaning that he would get jumped LIGHTLY on Thursday to school (sometimes he didn't even get that, if it was a multi-week show and he'd already been at the grounds for a week or so) but he DID NOT jump Mon, Tues or Wed, and in fact most likely was not ridden at all on Monday, sometimes even Tuesday. I know people that show on the C circuit that lesson twice a week and jump their horse literally almost every day (yes this is a generalization- but my point is that most A show horses are on a program like the one I mentioned above- and there are plenty of horses- especially lesson horses- that get jumped far more often than these show horses)

To say that horses can't decide for themselves is a bunch of baloney. My dog doesn't tell me to give him his monthly heart worm medicine- but I do, because I know that his is what he should get. My trainer's dog doesn't ask for a monthly injection of adequan (yep that's right the dog gets it) but she gives it to her because she is arthritic and it CLEARLY makes her feel BETTER. No, these horses don't ask for pain medication...but if a small dosage of LEGAL meds could make them more comfortable, I think we owe that to them. I think that it is so important to delineate the difference between illegal and legal drugs...because those of you that are chanting "we must put an end to the tranq's and the 'cocktail'" don't seem to be fully understanding the theory behind those of us who advocate the use of LEGAL, SAFE, and EFFECTIVE medications.

Now, whoever said this conversation as like nailing jello to a wall...THAT person...that person, is 100% correct.

Posting Trot
Dec. 23, 2003, 03:01 PM
I don't think anyone suggested that people ought to allow their horses to feel sore, or deny them medication that might make them feel better.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that horses should not receive any medication and/or supplements.

The question is, given that you have a horse that might have relatively minor soreness, do you a) miss next week's show, as well as perhaps administering the appropriate medication to make the horse comfortable, or b) give the horse medication and show it anyway.

Now, you can also ask the same question about someone who has a horse that has more than minor soreness, or that has some conformational (i.e. permanent) issue that causes soreness.

And, for my part, the only reason I suggested that horses don't have a choice is that when human athletes can no longer compete, no one ships them to a slaughterhouse. In other words, if human (professional) athletes use drugs (either legal or illegal) to enhance their performance, they are also enhancing their incomes, which allows a comfortable retirement.

Moreover, when you administer, for example, pain medications, a human still knows that s/he is injured. The horse probably doesn't know that, and thus is more liable to exacerbate the injury.

FWIW (which is very little), I also think that schoolies who are sore probably ought to get time off as well as medication.

Flash44
Dec. 23, 2003, 04:23 PM
I actually see injecting a horse's back as a pretty strong measure, something to be done if a horse is pretty darn sore, not just a little stiff or a little ouchy after one day of showing.

[This message was edited by Flash44 on Dec. 23, 2003 at 08:12 PM.]

Hunterland
Dec. 23, 2003, 08:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PostingTrot:

Moreover, when you administer, for example, pain medications, a human still knows that s/he is injured. The horse probably doesn't know that, and thus is more liable to exacerbate the injury.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the unsoundness that requires treatment is severe enough to pose this kind of risk the LEGAL dosage of meds will not help. I don't know anyone who would take that kind of risk with a six figure horse just for one horse show.

Hats off to C. Boylen, wouldn'tYOUliketoknow, and others for continuing to try and nail that Jello to the wall.

woudn'tYOUliketoknow?
Dec. 23, 2003, 10:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
I actually see injecting a horse's back as a pretty strong measure, something to be done if a horse is pretty darn sore, not just a little stiff or a little ouchy after one day of showing.

[This message was edited by Flash44 on Dec. 23, 2003 at 08:12 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct- but if the horse is continually "ouchey" after a day of showing, then eventually his back should be injected. Obviously after an injection the horse would get a few days off- we always give ours 2 days off whenever they get anything injected, and then light work for the rest of the week...

ESG
Dec. 24, 2003, 02:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunterland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PostingTrot:

Moreover, when you administer, for example, pain medications, a human still knows that s/he is injured. The horse probably doesn't know that, and thus is more liable to exacerbate the injury.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the unsoundness that requires treatment is severe enough to pose this kind of risk the LEGAL dosage of meds will not help. I don't know anyone who would take that kind of risk with a six figure horse just for one horse show.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I suggest you take a look at the latest suspension list just published in Horse Show magazine. I suspect you'll know, or at least recognize, some names of some folks who did exactly that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Flash44
Dec. 24, 2003, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woudn'tYOUliketoknow?:


The same goes for a horse. But what gets me is saying that "legal meds given to alter a horse's performace". Take a horse with a slightly sore back (first making sure the saddle fits properly, proper pads, the rider's position isn't hurting the horse, etc) This horse might be 100% sound...shoot, it might be the best mover in the class. It also might jump great too. But if it's back is sore...it might pin it's ears...or maybe go with its head a little too high. Even though it's perfectly sound, the owner OWES this horseo to get it's back injected, and maybe have it receive robaxin in addtion to that. Now, for all of you that shout "Give it time off! Retire it! It must not be suitable to it's career!"- Would you STOP on account of some mild lower back pain?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You brought up injecting the back due to slightly sore back, not chronic back pain.

Janet
Dec. 24, 2003, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But if it's back is sore...it might pin it's ears...or maybe go with its head a little too high. Even though it's perfectly sound,... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In my book, if its back is sore, it isn't "perfectly sound".
"Serviceably sound"- yes.
"Perfectly sound"- no.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[This message was edited by Janet on Dec. 24, 2003 at 01:18 PM.]

Ruby G. Weber
Dec. 24, 2003, 08:32 AM
I'm afraid there is going to be abuse and good, solid horsemanship/management at every level.

It is impossible to legislate proper management, good horsemanship and the like for the very reason, as the multitude of opinions on this thread indicate, no one can even agree on what good/proper horsemanship/management is.

What it abuse to one is within normal range for others.

I'm quite sure the judicious use of medications, treatments, etc. are helpful to the competition horse. I'm also quite sure some of these medications are used for other than their intended purpose.

I believe education, in the classic manner, is one way to combat abuse.

I also agree with those who feel stiffer penalties may be part of the answer.

I do not believe zero tolerance is the answer. Without a doubt a zero tolerance policy will create abuse through the development and use of medications which will probably prove to be more detrimental than what's in use today.

I sight the current trend as an example. Pre-testing the drug(s) of choice for the show ring were Sparine/Acepromazine. Most on these boards know a bit of Ace is usually helpful and very rarely harmful when not overdosed. An aside here, we often carried only the above mentioned and a bottle of Dyprone in our medicine trunk, in those days.

Then we moved to Serpasil (Resurpine). No one worried about a horse with diarreha in the early to mid 70's. They all had loose manure.

Calcium, magnesium, B1, Trytophan, Dapotum, you get the drift. Each new class of "tamers" are worse for the horse than their predecessor.

That would be the case with all medications, tamers and pain management meds, with zero tolerance. We would create more amateur chemists.

We must continue to take the middle road. Yes, demand harsher penalties for the minority who abuse the horse, but let's also learn from history, which, in this case has repeated itself.

QueenMother
Dec. 24, 2003, 10:16 AM
Pwynn == I think you might want to consider 8PM meds. You're ready to sue, ready to expose, ready to rant with capital letters way too often. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Janet
Dec. 24, 2003, 10:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Then I suggest you take a look at the latest suspension list just published in Horse Show magazine. I suspect you'll know, or at least recognize, some names of some folks who did exactly that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was not under the impression that reserpine was use to treat (or mask) unsoundness.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

CoolMeadows
Dec. 24, 2003, 11:20 AM
Pwynn, I don't think you need 8pm meds. When you have strong beliefs, it's difficult to stomache things that are disgusting in your view. That's all. And it's easy to get disillusioned and disappointed. I think it's great that you're opinionated, and express your opinions and get involved.

As far as trying to nail jello the the wall, if that's supposed to mean that most people who disagree with medicating haven't shown extensively or successfully and therefore those poor simple folk just can't comprehend the benefits, that's insulting. I have shown extensively, and I have been successful and I gag over the thought of putting my horses on robaxin, bute, dex, reserpine,etc... and gastroguard "just in case". Weatherford said she's been watching Olympia (somewhere I have a great pic of Rodrigo dressed as Eva hanging on to an escaping fake boob over the top of a jump - awesome show!) and those horses are sound, fresh, and winning at the top level for several days straight. It can be done, and I still believe that in the long run it would be better for the horses. If you're chasing points and going to so many shows that it's necessary to medicate for that extra 4% soundess, go to fewer shows and win more, the points will end up the same and your horse will have more show seasons.

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

CAJumper
Dec. 24, 2003, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Then I suggest you take a look at the latest suspension list just published in Horse Show magazine. I suspect you'll know, or at least recognize, some names of some folks who did exactly that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that comment really bugs me. You are assuming that all of the people busted by the new drug tests were drugging for performance at the shows. When the truth is that the new reserpine test can detect the drug 45 days after the initial dose (it used to be a two week window).

It is quite likely (and I believe this is true in *many* cases), that a horse was on stall rest, was given resperine, recovered, and went to a show a month and a half later and then tested positive for the drug.

Not saying that this is true in every case, but there are an awful lot of assumptions being made on this thread. Not all A-circuit hunters are drugged, not all BNTs value winning over the comfort and saftey of their horses, and not everyone on the new suspension list was trying to break the rules.

poltroon
Dec. 24, 2003, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CAJumper:
Now that comment really bugs me. You are assuming that all of the people busted by the new drug tests were drugging for performance at the shows. When the truth is that the new reserpine test can detect the drug 45 days after the initial dose (it used to be a two week window).

It is quite likely (and I believe this is true in *many* cases), that a horse was on stall rest, was given resperine, recovered, and went to a show a month and a half later and then tested positive for the drug.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mmm. Interesting. But if you had a horse on stall rest for an injury, why would you choose resperine instead of ace?

I'm not saying there isn't a medical application ... just that I've never heard a vet prescribe/suggest it for a horse on stall rest in 20 years... so I'm wondering why your vets choose differently than mine.

ESG
Dec. 24, 2003, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CAJumper:
[Not all A-circuit hunters are drugged, not all BNTs value winning over the comfort and saftey of their horses, and not everyone on the new suspension list was trying to break the rules.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're quite right; no one has said that all BNTs drug or that all A circuit hunters are drugged, but the percentage is a lot higher than it should be. And if you'll pardon my saying so, I think you're being naive if you think that those BNTs who use reserpine don't know that they could get caught. If memory serves (and my apologies if it doesn't), reserpine isn't legal in any amount. So if the BNTs or the SNTs or anyone else who is knowledgeable enough to use it chooses to do so, they're taking the chance that their horses will be tested and they'll get caught and be penalized. Their choice, to take the risk. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And as far as "not everyone on the new suspension list was trying to break the rules", how else could one explain their actions? Elaborate, please? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[This message was edited by ESG on Dec. 25, 2003 at 08:33 AM.]

CBoylen
Dec. 24, 2003, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
I'm not saying there isn't a medical application ... just that I've never heard a vet prescribe/suggest it for a horse on stall rest in 20 years... so I'm wondering why your vets choose differently than mine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, one of our local vets suggested it recently for one of mine on stall rest. She then stood baffled as Mr. Trainer and I simultaneously yelled no and about hit the floor laughing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

CAJumper
Dec. 24, 2003, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:

Mmm. Interesting. But if you had a horse on stall rest for an injury, why would you choose resperine instead of ace?

I'm not saying there isn't a medical application ... just that I've never heard a vet prescribe/suggest it for a horse on stall rest in 20 years... so I'm wondering why your vets choose differently than mine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've personally never used reserpine for a horse on stall rest. However, I know it's commonly used for this purpose.

LH
Dec. 24, 2003, 02:09 PM
Reserpine is commonly used for horses on long term stall rest or rehabbing from an injury -- it is injected, is believed to last 45 days or so, and is effective in some (but not all) horses to just keep them a little more mellow while they are recovering so they don't continue to reinjure themselves. It is used instead of Ace because with Ace you have to give it every day, every feeding, etc., and with Reserpine -- if it is effective on the particular horse -- it's only given once for that 45 day period. It does tend to mellow some of them out, but not make them "dopey" or clumsy. THAT's why it was so popular in the 70's to keep a few of the hunters quiet . . . http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It does NOT "work" on all of them -- I've known some horses on long term (6 months) stall rest that had no effect on Reserpine, and it was quiet a challenge to keep them quiet enough to allow an injury to heal - even in their stall!

CAJumper
Dec. 24, 2003, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
And as far as "not everyone on the new suspension list was trying to break the rules", how else could one explain their actions? Elaborate, please? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this is how I think of it - let's say I need to tranq my horse to clip his ears before a show. So I give him some ace three weeks before I need to be somewhere, knowing that it will clear his system before then. And I certainly know that he will not be feeling the effects of the ace three weeks later! Now, let's say that a new test is developed which can detect if any ace was given within the past month. My horse tests positive and I'm suspended. But does that mean that I was trying to "cheat" at the show? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Now believe me - I am *not* naive enough to think that drugging is not all too common on the circuit. It just bothers me when I don't see names on the suspension list that should be there (let's face it, we all know who drugs their horses at the shows for illegal purposes). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And it bothers me when people see names on the list and automatically assume that every horse in that trainer's barn is drugged for performance at every show. Just trying to point out that it isn't always the case. Hope that makes sense.

Dana
Dec. 24, 2003, 02:18 PM
ESG wrote, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You're quite right; no one has said that all BNTs drug or that all A circuit hunters are drugged, but the percentage is a lot higher than it should be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The percentage may be higher in that it should be that NO ONE should be using ILLEGAL drugs to enhance a horse's performance in the ring. That being said, is the percentage really that high? When you consider the number of samples that are pulled each year vs. the number of people who are suspended for having ILLEGAL drugs or ILLEGAL amounts of drugs in their horses, the numbers aren't really that high, are they?

On another vein, people keep talking about the FEI and their no tolerance rule. Well, where do y'all think some of the newer drugs are coming from? Maybe the vets and trainers who spend lots of time in Europe and are bringing back the newest medications that are the "rage" over there? Hmmm, sounds to me like there is still a problem with people in Europe who are looking for the "quick fix" for those horses, too. It's not just a problem over here. As I recall a year or so ago when some BNTs got caught, it was a "supplement" that was imported from Europe that wasn't supposed to test....

Dana

Friends don't let friends ride junk!

Janet
Dec. 24, 2003, 02:18 PM
In that case (stall rest for an injusry), you are supposed to file the "therapeutic drug use " form with the steward. In the report of the suspension, if a therapeutic drug use form WAS filed, the report usually states that, and either uses that as a mitigating factor in the punishment, or says why they DIDN't consider it a mitigating factor. (And of course, in MOST cases where the form has been filed, it never rreaches the punishment phase.) The fact that no mention was made of the therapeutic drug use form leads me to believe there wasn't one.

This summer Belle had her withers injeted with Procaine. I went to HITS show 3 weeks later, and filed the therapeutic drug use form. We weren't tested, but if we had been tested, and come up positive for procaine, the form wold have shown that we were complying the rules (provided that the amouny detected was consistent with the info on the form).

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Weatherford
Dec. 24, 2003, 02:52 PM
Actually, if I remember correctly, the Vets said that the horses chosen for random testing are selected from those entered - SO, if the horse is on stall rest, it shouldn't have an entry NUMBER, and thus not be tested...

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hasty
Dec. 24, 2003, 04:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mmm. Interesting. But if you had a horse on stall rest for an injury, why would you choose resperine instead of ace?

I'm not saying there isn't a medical application ... just that I've never heard a vet prescribe/suggest it for a horse on stall rest in 20 years... so I'm wondering why your vets choose differently than mine.[/QUOTE]

I have been lurking for a while, until I read this comment. My horse recently hurt himself pretty badly and has been on stall rest and the first thing the vet did was give him a shot of resurpine. I have not had 20 years of experience...but at least 10 years and anytime I have ever seen a horse on long term stall rest, resurpine has been the first thing the horse gets. If you give a shot of resurpine it can last for up to a month, and if you give it in pills it lasts as long as u give it to them. As for ace, a shot lasts for an hour, maybe? My question now for you is, WHY would you give a horse on stall rest ace? Unless maybe you are trying to keep it calm for a short hand walk or something of that sort, it doesn't seem very practical to me unless you are standing by with a new shot of ace as soon as the the old one runs out. JMHO

Michelle
http://community.webshots.com/user/michelleee22

DarkerHorse
Dec. 24, 2003, 05:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Actually, if I remember correctly, the Vets said that the horses chosen for random testing are selected from those entered - SO, if the horse is on stall rest, it shouldn't have an entry NUMBER, and thus not be tested...

_ It's OUT! _ Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping _ co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif _ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They have to have a number if they are on the show grounds, even if they are just paying a non entry fee.

Why D'ya Do It?

Jumphigh83
Dec. 24, 2003, 06:39 PM
Actually no they dont need a number to be on the grounds. BUT they are suppose to be under the control of the show whether showing or not so yeah they are subject to the same drugs and meds rule. There are alot of non showing horses on the grounds at any one time...confusing enough? I hope so! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com (http://www.threewindsfarmny.com)

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

ESG
Dec. 25, 2003, 05:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CAJumper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
And as far as "not everyone on the new suspension list was trying to break the rules", how else could one explain their actions? Elaborate, please? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this is how I think of it - let's say I need to tranq my horse to clip his ears before a show. So I give him some ace three weeks before I need to be somewhere, knowing that it will clear his system before then. And I certainly know that he will not be feeling the effects of the ace three weeks later! Now, let's say that a new test is developed which can detect if any ace was given within the past month. My horse tests positive and I'm suspended. But does that mean that I was trying to "cheat" at the show? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see your point. But do you see mine? We're talking about a drug that is illegal, in any amount. If you're an experienced rider on the AA circuit, wouldn't it make sense for you to use an alternative drug that won't test if your horse needs a trank for stall rest? And if a horse is on stall rest, why is it showing three weeks later, anyway? Doesn't sound like much of a rehab program to me. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif It just doesn't add up that it's accidental and not meant to influence the horse's performance. And if you're really smart, you do as Janet mentioned and do a medical declaration form and tell show management what's going on with your mount. I did it when administering (procaine) penicillin to my horse to treat a skin infection. We did our last injection five days before a dressage show, and when I picked up my packet I filled out the declaration form and handed it in to the secretary. That's proper procedure for any USEF sanctioned show. The fact that none of these folks on the suspension list seem to have done so only further convinces me of their guilt. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

And yes, if you use an illegal drug knowingly on a horse that you intend to show, it does mean that you're trying to cheat. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Many years ago, I had a TB gelding that just wouldn't settle into training. Head tossing (for no apparent reason after many, many vet visits), tension, bucking, etc. etc. etc. My vet suggested fluphenazine, (sp?), and told me it was illegal. There were not, however, tests at that time that would pick it up, so if I'd wanted to show, I probably would have gotten away with it. Since this horse was at least three months away from ever setting foot in a show ring, I agreed, as I was at the end of my rope with him. Now, would I have had the med administered if I were planning to show? No. I don't even like showing horses on legal amounts of 'bute unless I think they really need it. I would have refused because I know the risks, and my reputation and my horse's soundness and emotional well being are far more valuable than any competition. Now granted, I'm not playing for the same stakes as Todd Minikus and Don Stewart, but that doesn't make my reputation any less valuable than theirs. Actually, mine's more valuable, since it's intact. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by ESG on Dec. 25, 2003 at 08:42 AM.]

[This message was edited by ESG on Dec. 25, 2003 at 08:44 AM.]

Jumphigh83
Dec. 25, 2003, 09:46 AM
So your reputation is intact but the aforementioned pros is not?? hmmmm... Anyway, the horse on stall rest was NOT the one showing with reserpine, it was a stablemate who got the feed accidentally (if I am to believe the saga, which I can) I dont agree with performance enhancing drugs but I also dont believe in moral elitism either. May you all NEVER make a mistake for which this board slices and dices you. Perfection must take alot of energy.

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com (http://www.threewindsfarmny.com)

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

ESG
Dec. 25, 2003, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
So your reputation is intact but the aforementioned pros is not?? hmmmm... Anyway, the horse on stall rest was NOT the one showing with reserpine, it was a stablemate who got the feed accidentally (if I am to believe the saga, which I can) I dont agree with performance enhancing drugs but I also dont believe in moral elitism either. May you all NEVER make a mistake for which this board slices and dices you. Perfection must take alot of energy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One does not require perfection to not show a horse on drugs, only honesty, which actually takes very little effort. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rocky
Dec. 25, 2003, 11:07 AM
Lurking on this thread for awhile....but it is Christmas so lets lay off the personal attacks and keep this discussion just that....a discussion.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

My new barn mantra...MYOB MYOB

MHM
Dec. 25, 2003, 11:13 AM
"God bless us all, every one!"

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

brilyntrip
Dec. 25, 2003, 12:23 PM
Unfortunately I haven't had enough time to read this entire thread but..I did read the first few pages and wanted to add the following comments.One;fitness, wind and muscle is extremely important for any horse I think .I don't think a hunter needs to be as fit as an event horse but I send my two daughters out every day that they ride for a walk around the outside of one of the turn outs ( about 3/4 mile each way maybe a little less).If they aren't doing ring work they'll do say two laps at a trot two at a canter.Even the really old pony does this but only on days when she has been ridden slowly two days prior.I worry about her pulling something unless she is worked practically every day.I strongly believe that horses cannot compete over long courses unless they are fit.There is also a strange belief on my part that consistancy (i.e.work them the same way regularly will help horses know what to expect ,i.e.shows become a part of the work they do everyday.).
As concerns stall rest at shows..I may be wrong but..It was always my impression that ANY horse on show grounds whether showing or not may be tested .????????

Brilyntrip-KarinImmerman"

"R"judge H/J/HE/

Flash44
Dec. 26, 2003, 07:05 AM
So if most of the meds were administered for honest therapeutic purposes, such as

-horse on stall rest recovering from mild injury
-clipping, floating teeth, etc

Then why is this not happening in all other disciplines?

Horseymama
Dec. 26, 2003, 07:30 AM
Flash44 makes a good point - although I think Robert Dover (dressage BNT) was also cited for reserpine.

I have a question, why would you take a horse that was on stall rest 3 weeks ago to a show? I try and make sure that when I am going to spend the time and money (and other people's time and money) to compete, that the horses are in top condition - not coming off stall rest! If it is a mild condition and a 7 day or less stall rest, most of the horses I have/had would do fine with less feed and hand-walking.

I guess I can understand giving reserpine to a horse that has a long stall rest ahead of them. I certainly wouldn't be pushing to get them to a show right after!

ESG
Dec. 26, 2003, 08:54 AM
I completely agree with your point. Who shows a horse immediately after coming off stall rest, that really cares about the horse? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

And it was pentoxifylline that Robert Dover and Jane Clark got smacked for. Anyone familiar with it, or its effects? Just curious........... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Flash44
Dec. 26, 2003, 09:08 AM
My point is that all disciplines clip, trim, float teeth, ship, etc, and if the excuse is that the horse was medicated for this purpose, the FREQUENCY of positive tests should be the same across the board for all disciplines.

If the horse was on stall rest due to minor injury/illness and was legitimately medicated for this purpose then returned to competition, and it just lingered in the system a little too long, you should have a similar FREQUENCY of occurance across the board.

NinaL aka Chrissy
Dec. 26, 2003, 09:50 AM
Pentoxifylline is similar to isoxsuprine but it is much longer acting than isox (I think effects last up to six months after the course of medication). Thus, it is used for conditions such as navicular disease, laminitis, etc. It is subject to the 24 hour rule at USEF sanctioned events - IOW, you have to withdraw 24 hours prior to competition and file a medication report. RD's infraction was at an FEI event (selection trials) so he may be subject to additional sanctions from the FEI.

BTW, for those of you that use tranquilizers for shippin' and clippin': unless things have changed in the past few years neither of these instances are considered valid reasons for administering a prohibited substance. Therefore, filing a medication report is not going to save you if your horse comes up positive for a prohibited substance. I believe that the USEF recommends at least one week for the metabolites to completely clear the horse's system.

Reserpine and rehab. Given the facts that serp may be detected in the bloodstream up to 45 days following administration and that it may be used in the first days or week of rehab it is possible that a horse could be conditioned enough to compete in the hunter ring and still test positive. If I had a horse coming back from injury and said horse had been on Reserpine while stallbound I would probably take the precaution of having the horse's blood checked prior to returning to competion unless I was far removed from the 45 day window. The cost of the bloodtest would be a heck of a lot less expensive than the fine and it would certainly alleviate much of my concern if the horse was tested at a show.

ESG, it is funny you should mention Prolixin in an earlier post. I used Prolixin for a similar reason and the vet also made sure to mention that is was illegal and did not test. Of course, it did not make a difference to me (horse was still bucking like a good rodeo bronc at that time - not that I would show a horse on an illegal medication) but I thought it amusing that he brought it up. Turns out he was making regular visits to a number of stables in the area to ensure that the horses would be competitive at the next show http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Oh, and these were not just USEF shows. IIRC, the majority were competing at breed shows such as AQHA, APHA, etc.

As an aside, judging from what I have seen done with the reiners that board where I board my horses, the testers would have a field day at some of the reining events around the area. The pre-show cocktail consists of an injection of Reserpine in the neck and a slug of Regumate on the grain.

As bad as we see it where there is regulation it is much worse where there is none.

Nina

Weatherford
Dec. 26, 2003, 01:10 PM
The idea the something "would not test" is found highly amusing by the D&M people -

Given the quality of the lab, and the extensive equipment, they can test for ANYTHING... It is KNOWING what is now around that is more the problem http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Remember a few years ago when the BNT's were using a European herbal that supposedly "did not test" - they conned their way out of it, IMHO... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

NinaL aka Chrissy
Dec. 26, 2003, 01:26 PM
Ahhh, but Weatherford, what is more amusing (or should I say appalling) - the idea that something would not test so it is okay to show on it, the fact that there are vets spreading that word, or that trainers are too dumb (or crooked) to call the D&M committee to find out the facts?

I was disgusted that the before-mentioned vet would administer Prolixin to horses for the express purpose of "getting them ready to show". But I guess it the old philosophy of "someone else is gonna make money on it so it might as well be me". Of course, I have heard that argument as validation for other questionably ethical practices.

But, really, the problem is not contained to the h/j world. What do people think about the use of anabolic steroids (perfectly legal in the eyes of the D&M committee) to body build halter and dressage horses? This is a very potent "performance enhancing" drug with a direct effect on performance which is okay in the eyes of our D&M committee because it also may be used therapeutically. I have a real problem with that and would like to see the D&M committee come up with a true justification for the use of anabolic steroids in show horses. Anybody want to take a swing at that one?

Nina

ESG
Dec. 26, 2003, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NinaL aka Chrissy:
ESG, it is funny you should mention Prolixin in an earlier post. I used Prolixin for a similar reason and the vet also made sure to mention that is was illegal and did not test. Of course, it did not make a difference to me (horse was still bucking like a good rodeo bronc at that time - not that I would show a horse on an illegal medication) but I thought it amusing that he brought it up. Turns out he was making regular visits to a number of stables in the area to ensure that the horses would be competitive at the next show http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Oh, and these were not just USEF shows. IIRC, the majority were competing at breed shows such as AQHA, APHA, etc.

I think we know some of the same vets. That story sounds terribly familiar. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

As an aside, judging from what I have seen done with the reiners that board where I board my horses, the testers would have a field day at some of the reining events around the area. The pre-show cocktail consists of an injection of Reserpine in the neck and a slug of Regumate on the grain.

Nina<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears we've been around some of the same reiners, too, judging from your post. That's one of the things that make it so funny that reining is now an FEI sport; what will those poor trainers do that are used to drugging a 2 or 3 year old to the eyeballs to show when they have to wait to show until their horses are six, and on NO MEDS? Doesn't sound promising, I can tell you that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And no, I don't hate reiners; I just don't think they deserve the same respect and consideration as the real FEI disciplines.

Just my opinion................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ESG
Dec. 26, 2003, 02:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
The idea the something "would not test" is found highly amusing by the D&M people -

Given the quality of the lab, and the extensive equipment, they can test for ANYTHING... It is KNOWING what is now around that is more the problem http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Remember a few years ago when the BNT's were using a European herbal that supposedly "did not test" - they conned their way out of it, IMHO... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


"Conned" is the right word. "Oh, we didn't know what was in that stuff; it was our barn managers/grooms/stable hands' fault that those horses got that stuff. We would never do anything illegal............. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Come to think of it, wasn't Todd Minikus among those riders too? Or have I been at the cooking sherry again?

Peggy
Dec. 26, 2003, 10:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
The idea the something "would not test" is found highly amusing by the D&M people -

Given the quality of the lab, and the extensive equipment, they can test for ANYTHING... It is KNOWING what is now around that is more the problem
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My guess is that it's a combination of knowing what to test for and deciding what it's feasible to test for. Given enough time and money, they probably have the instrumentation to test for pretty much any substance for which there is a test and/or they have a reference sample. There probably isn't enough time or money to screen for every possible substance.

And, as you so astutely pointed out, you can't screen for an unknown substance. You can hypothesize that something illicit is present and then try to separate it out and determine what it is. That's obviously not feasible for every sample, but maybe is done when something is suspected. Perhaps this is how they detected the presence of the "new" steriod (tetrahydrogestrinone) in the track and field athletes, despite the fact that it was designed to be undectable using the normal methods.