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View Full Version : Question about Point Two "Pro Air" vest



cllane1
Mar. 5, 2010, 09:17 AM
After it inflates, do you have to send it back to the manufacturer to have it deflated and repacked, like with a car airbag? Or is it something you do yourself?

RAyers
Mar. 5, 2010, 09:20 AM
It deflates on its own. All you need to do is install a new gas canister.

Reed

twofatponies
Mar. 5, 2010, 09:30 AM
I am very enthralled by this new vest! Watched the videos yesterday. But the price!

cllane1
Mar. 5, 2010, 10:04 AM
Is it a CO2 canister like a paintball gun would use?

Grandysgirl
Mar. 5, 2010, 10:40 AM
Yes, it is a small canister. They run about $50 for a replacement. There are several options out there (most coming from the UK). These have been utilized extensively in the motocross and motorcycle racing world for years and they all love them. They work kind of like a jetski and the safety tag that attaches your wrist to the handle. When you disconnect from the jetski it cuts the engine. When you 'disconnect' from your horse it inflates.

RAyers
Mar. 5, 2010, 11:51 AM
A word here,

Just because other sport use these types of devices does not mean these will work well in the horse world. What happens if the horse goes down with you? What happens if not enough force is imparted to affect the lanyard?

At the same time, the mechanics of a horse fall and a motorcycle crash are very different. So a device that works in one may not work as well in another. What I am saying is that just because motorcyclists like it does not mean we should blindly accept their claims.

Reed

Shrunk "N" Da Wash
Mar. 5, 2010, 01:40 PM
Yes, it is a small canister. They run about $50 for a replacement. There are several options out there (most coming from the UK). These have been utilized extensively in the motocross and motorcycle racing world for years and they all love them. They work kind of like a jetski and the safety tag that attaches your wrist to the handle. When you disconnect from the jetski it cuts the engine. When you 'disconnect' from your horse it inflates.

The air canisters are more like 20$ for the eventing ones.

CookiePony
Mar. 5, 2010, 01:51 PM
I think it comes with extra canisters, too.

Buck Davidson was wearing one when he fell recently and feels that it is an essential piece of equipment:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/reflections-after-fall

purplnurpl
Mar. 5, 2010, 03:46 PM
A word here,

Just because other sport use these types of devices does not mean these will work well in the horse world. What happens if the horse goes down with you? What happens if not enough force is imparted to affect the lanyard?

At the same time, the mechanics of a horse fall and a motorcycle crash are very different. So a device that works in one may not work as well in another. What I am saying is that just because motorcyclists like it does not mean we should blindly accept their claims.

Reed


It seems as though there are more than several claims from riders that the vests have been a nice way to land.

The majority of falls are those where the rider is ejected clear. This vest will help in that situation. This is a statement that WE UNDERSTAND.

There are falls, though, that only unseen powers can save us from--or possibly the EXO [if it is worn]. This again is a statement the WE UNDERSTAND.

the biggest question that stands out, Rayers, is: is this vest possibly a dangerous piece of equipment?

deltawave
Mar. 5, 2010, 03:50 PM
This is Buck's quote



During the fall, I realized I was wearing something that might save me from serious injury one day: the Point Two Air Jacket. I know what you’re thinking, “Here is Buck trying to sell something.” Quite the opposite. I was skeptical to start, but I’m a believer now. I made sure to get my dad and my girlfriend one for Christmas, and now I insist they wear them on every cross-country ride.
This air vest allowed me to walk away from this fall, and the Point Two Air Jacket is the most exciting innovation in a long time in our sport. No one drives a car without an air bag; why not ride with one?
When I was ejected from the saddle, I landed on a pillow of air. What a relief. I was not only able to walk away but also to ride another horse 10 minutes later. Without this new vest, I most surely would have taken a ride to the hospital. I only hope that in the future we can create a system as safe for our horses.


I will not argue that it is an innovation, probably a badly-needed one, and I certainly am not going to tell him that his assessment of the reductio of his fall's impact was not accurate. But it's really, really hard, even with heartfelt and compelling anecdotes from people we respect, to make the leap to say "this is an essential piece of equipment" for everyone, all the time, without FURTHER STUDY.

Should we not wear them? I DON'T KNOW. Nobody knows. I sincerely hope that these questions are answered somehow, instead of the normal horse-world phenomenon: "sell it first, research it later, maybe". :(

I also have just got to roll my eyes again at the FOOLISHNESS of having a "fall and you're done" rule for one horse, but it's perfectly OK to get up and get on another horse 10 minutes later. :rolleyes:

RAyers
Mar. 5, 2010, 04:03 PM
...
the biggest question that stands out, Rayers, is: is this vest possibly a dangerous piece of equipment?

Yes it possibly is. Any vest has potential danger associated with them. For instance, say there is a hyper-extension of the neck during impact where the vest has not inflated yet (see the picture on the Point Two USA website as an example of a person hitting the ground BEFORE the vest inflates). What will happen when the vest inflates pushing the neck and head back forward and the neck collar expands? What about the brain? Will there be subsequent "rattling" around?

Case in point, when air bags were first put in cars safety studies showed that they deployed SO fast they actually caused more injury. Thus makers had to slow down inflation to better protect the head and neck of passengers.

Do I have a definitive answer? No. But I can say definitively that nobody has the answer, even the manufacturer, so when considering one of these, a buyer must also realize that everything said about these types of vests is anecdotal.

Reed

JER
Mar. 5, 2010, 05:49 PM
Well said by deltawave and Reed.

Also wanted to add (again) that the compression/deflation issue with these vests is a serious one. Please understand that both rapid compression and rapid decompression (deflation of the vest in this case) can be mechanisms of injury -- in other words, additional trauma. Right now, there is no information about this with respect to these vests.

As Reed points out, airbags have undergone lots of adjustments over time and are not safer for certain types of passengers. Also, airbags do cause injuries like burns and blunt force trauma. It's just that in doing so, they also offer protection from worse things.

But airbags have been tested. A lot. By manufacturers, by independent groups, by watchdog groups, by federal and state agencies.

ACMEeventing
Mar. 5, 2010, 07:05 PM
I also have just got to roll my eyes again at the FOOLISHNESS of having a "fall and you're done" rule for one horse, but it's perfectly OK to get up and get on another horse 10 minutes later. :rolleyes:

This, delta, is a mystery to me as well.

FoxChaser
Mar. 5, 2010, 07:11 PM
As someone mentioned at the MSEDA meeting... um... what happens when one inflates and you have it on under a pinny? Sure sounds like things could get tight!!!

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 5, 2010, 07:40 PM
As someone mentioned at the MSEDA meeting... um... what happens when one inflates and you have it on under a pinny? Sure sounds like things could get tight!!!


That's actually pretty easy...I'm sure you can tie your pinny in a way tthat it will not be a problem.

Talk to Buck...guess he's inflated several jumping off his horse after xc before un-attaching himself (and I'm sure he isn't the only one to do that):lol:

archieflies
Mar. 5, 2010, 08:07 PM
Talk to Buck...guess he's inflated several jumping off his horse after xc before un-attaching himself (and I'm sure he isn't the only one to do that):lol:

That's exactly what I was imagining myself doing... I'd be shelling out $20 for a new canister after every ride, because I'd always forget it was there.

How long is the cord? If my horse catches me by surprise and I do the "flying turtle" over a jump (as I am wont to do), am I going to be caught by surprise mid-air when my vest inflates, and then be left without protection for the rest of the ride? We all have those almost-fall moments from time to time. If we barely hang on, but the vest has already been inflated... are we going to just have to stop the ride because we no longer have protection?

I dunno... I don't like anything that has a 'mind of its own,' because, well, failure is always an option, and that's never convenient.

Foxhall
Mar. 5, 2010, 09:29 PM
I bought one of these vests in england over the summer. I fell once in it when I was jumping up a bank this fall. I came a bit too quickly and the horse kind of tripped up it and almost went down on his knees. I somersaulted off onto the top of the bank. I am no expert and have done no testing but after the fall I literally had a line of bruising on my backside where the vest's protection ended, but I didn't have any bruising where the vest protected. I don't know if I would have had to take a trip to the hospital or not, but what I am sure of is that the vest did save me from some extra pain and soreness! The vest is attached to the saddle with a bungee, that when correctly attached gives you about 12-14 inches of room, I think if you are any farther away then that from your horse, I think you're chances of getting back in the saddle are slim to none anyway. It takes about 80 lbs of force to deploy the canister. Once it inflates, it immediately starts deflating and will be completely deflated in about 15 min. When it inflates it feels like the blood pressure machine they put on your arm at the doctor, except across your entire body. It inflates in .1 of a second, so in most falls involving the rider only, it would be inflated by the time the rider hits the ground. It would obviously be a different situation if the horse were involved in the fall. The way I see it, in this sport it can't hurt to have some extra protection.

Blugal
Mar. 5, 2010, 10:11 PM
Unfortunately Buck is not a student of logic. He thinks that the untested/unscientifically proven Point Two was great and saved him from worse injury (anecdotal), then goes on to say that he is leery of untested/unscientifically proven collapsible XC jumps.

RAyers
Mar. 5, 2010, 11:30 PM
Unfortunately Buck is not a student of logic. He thinks that the untested/unscientifically proven Point Two was great and saved him from worse injury (anecdotal), then goes on to say that he is leery of untested/unscientifically proven collapsible XC jumps.


Unless they were products developed by friends such as PRO Logs and then they were thoroughly tested.... once, in only one configuration, in the most simple manner that was used in the 1950s.

I swear, upper level athlete logic in this sport about this issue is only outweighed by their ability to get a walk-on in a Broadway play.

JER
Mar. 5, 2010, 11:57 PM
When it inflates it feels like the blood pressure machine they put on your arm at the doctor, except across your entire body.

Well, you make my point very well.

A blood pressure cuff, when inflated, occludes your artery.

Traumatic injuries are the result of sudden changes in forces applied to the body. Sudden acceleration and deceleration, impacts, increases/decreases in pressure, etc.

Consider this: you're trapped under your horse or with your horse in an obstacle. You have not been separated enough to inflate the vest. You have already suffered massive crush injuries. You have multiple rib fractures, a punctured lung, maybe a rib fragment dangerously close to your aorta. Then something happens -- you try to get out, someone tries to pull you out, the horse moves -- and your vest inflates.

The air jacket in this grim little scene has already failed you as a safety device. And it may now be doing actual damage.

Just another reason safety products should be tested first.

deltawave
Mar. 6, 2010, 07:22 AM
Our great ideas and utterly logical hypotheses do have a way of letting us down once we put them under the microscope. :sigh:

Estrogen to prevent heart disease, anyone?

riverpup
Mar. 6, 2010, 09:45 AM
Perhaps irrelevent to the conversation, but if I were wearing that vest and fell off, the sound of it inflating would ensure that I would not see my horse for many miles.

That bothers me as I a safety issue for him and pedestrians, and even cars if the event is near a road.