Use of TB discussion in Holstein

[Bayhawk]

Given the recent conversations regarding the application of TB blood in sporthorse breeding , I thought you all might enjoy this discussion and insight from 3 top breeders in Holstein.

The question was asked during a breeders meeting : "What happens when we don't use TB's anymore ?"

Otto Boje Schoof : " A couple of decades ago , 50% of the mares in Holstein were half bloods.With that they were the essential foundation of todays successful Holsteiner jumping horses. We need in Holstein a TB sire again more than ever, because we must pay attention that our jumping horses become more maneuverable and athletic. The courses on the international jumping places in the world are technically more and more demanding. Scope alone is not enough anymore. Now we are looking worldwide again for a TB sire, who needs to fit on todays mare base. We have to try and register in the next 5 years , 15 potential TB stallions, that takes time , but only like this we will have a chance through intensive selection to integrate a meaningful TB sire for Holsteiner breeding. Also , we have to breed our best mares to a suitable TB stallion. "

Prof. Dr. Hartwig Schmidt : " At this moment we don't have the experts who can find the right TB and there is not enough contact with people of knowledge. It is also right now much more difficult to find the right TB . From the countries we used to get the TB's, they have the type we do not need. That type of TB is incapable with it's high butt and short neck. From insignificant lines are coming good horses like Heraldik xx. We need to search more in other areas like Poland and Slovenia. We need to use more TB and the right TB might cost money. "

Alf Bartholomaus : " In our breeding we should breed 2 - 5 % of our mare base to a TB. The Verband buys the half blood foals , but I observe the breeders don't let their best mares be covered by a TB and that must happen. The Verband should select the mares for the TB stallion and then buy the foals. These half blood stallions should be professionally raised and selected to show the best at the stallion approvals. They can also use a stallion with alot of TB blood. Larimar is a good example : ( Lavall II / Lord / Little Lion xx) a Ladykiller xx inbreeding product following the TB Little Lion xx. As well as Prof. Schmidt and Otto Schoof , I have used this stallion and we expect a lot of him. "

[TKR]

That's exciting and interesting news, Reese. I've always wondered (and asked before) -- how and where do they "search"? I've always thought there were some very nice stallions that "fall through the cracks" in the US because they aren't the "type" or pedigree to produce the early maturing, 6-7 furlong babies and are spun out of the big farms and elsewhere. They would certainly be more of what is being sought by sporthorse breeders. I would love to know how they go about looking for their next stallion(s). TIA
PennyG

[selah]

It is interesting to see, at least to my eyes, a similar "look" between Heraldik xx, as mentioned in Bayhawk's post, Waidmannsdank xx, which was mentioned in a German Forum posted by Omare on the WB/TB thread, and the Sandro/Sandro Song/Sandro Hit horses. Sandro Hit has Waidmannshiel mare in his tail female line...her sire's sire is Waidmannsdank. Click on the picture icon at the top:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/waidmannsdank
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sandro2
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/heraldik
These TBs have all made great contributions to WB breeding...and none of them are the big substantial field-hunter type some of us picture the TB of the past as being.

So, supposing one thought he had a potential "Half Blood Prince" in his barn...who would he show him to? (Guess it's a ditto of TKR's question)

[toomanyponies]

I have some questions. . .

What does the Verband do with the 'half-bred' colts? auction?

The price they pay. . . on the face of it 2500 Euros seems cheap. BUT that is about 5x the stud fee if I assume the average TB stud fee is 500 euros. If I look at the 'average' stud fee in the US, I would say 1500-2000. Five times the stud fee is about 7500- 10,000, which seems to be about market value for the 'half-breds' over here. . . (and some of the 'full-breds' as well). . .

[alexandra]

Tbs approved for WB breeding in Germany do not have a huge fee (but so a lot of WB stallions have not a huuuuuge fee. For 1000 you can get really decent to good ones, only the so called modern one as Sir Donnerhall, the Holstein champion jumper one that PS has, Briar, Don Schufro etc are more).
A TB stallion in TB breeding is much much more expansive, also in Germany.
No idea what Holstein does wiht the TB colts, have not heard yet of an auction.
They have by the way a very interresting TB in Holstein: Ibisco. Himself proven in races. Also in races over jumps. I knew his late owner/trainer/breeder and he and his family coming from 3 day eventing always said this is one for WB breeding.

[RyTimMick]

Ibisco is looking interesting. I saw 2 fillies out of good mares last year. I really liked their type and lines. They were both very modern with long legs. Top lines were not negatively effected that much. Here is a picture of one.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_YJkKM9rb5us/SvONYiYzuuI/AAAAAAAAAKo/0nXqOQ788Bw/s800/Germany%2009%20107.jpg

Tim

[alexandra]

Thanks Tim ! I ahve seen only a few pictures and was searching for the foal evaluations of the Verband of him last winter.
Ibisco is also approved for Hannover.
As said his late trainer always said to me this is one I really like and that could be very useful for WB breeding as he is also very rideable. The family later sold the stallion and unfortunately Celle did not bite at that time when they were offered him. (no idea if he was to expansive or what was the reason).
He (owner/trainer) really liked that guy. And he had a very good eye for horses and rode himself at Level L 3 day, dressage and jumping when he was young.

[vineyridge]

Ibisco
http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=6143037&registry=T&horse_name==Ibisco%20%28GER%29&dam_name==Itza%20%28GER%29&foaling_year=2000&nicking_stats_indicator=Y

As I recall Ibisco's pedigree, it seemed to be a fairly unexceptional European one with much greater eventing potential for his get than straight show jumping. However, the females in his family are well known to WB breeders, as they have used stallions by those females before. Perhaps that might be a future model for incorporating TB blood in WBs--find good event horse TB types from tested female lines to produce the F1s, evaluate them, then use F2 and beyond to reinforce the jump for show jumping or move toward dressage.

That's why generational breeding is so very important.

I've been thinking about the loss of ability in F1s a good bit and have actually come across a very good example of that in another area where the F2s show the effects of the outcrossing while the F1s are not very accomplished--but I've completely forgotten where I found it. And since I've been computerless, I didn't put it down in notes. I'm still relying on the kindness of strangers.

[vineyridge]

Sorry to have edited out the language that Tuckawayfarm quoted. I was replying to something Tim said on the other thread, so moved my thought over there.

[Mozart]

I have some questions. . .

What does the Verband do with the 'half-bred' colts? auction?

. .

The half bred colts win gold medals in Olympic eventing ;)

[au_panda]

Interesting choice of pictures to post of the mare and foal by Ibisco (who by the way is a black-type winning race horse with both sire lines from the US racing industry and a mare line that goes back to Landgraf through Ferro).

This discussion has repeatedly pointed out the conformation problems of the TB mare population, specifically noting the short neck. IMO this mare has a few conformational problems of her own, one of which is a short, very triangular neck, extremely heavily muscled on the underside compounded by a thick throat-latch. This mare was bred to a TB that improved her head and throat-latch and the neck of the foal is extremely improved for length and shape. For me, the foals front legs are exceptionally improved over the mare, he has longer pasterns with appropriate slope, he has her short cannons and his feet and angles look nearly perfect. However his hind legs don't do much for me (I suspect it's the photo problem). His back is shorter and his top-line is more harmonious than the mare's.

My point in noting the mare's conformation and the foals improvement is this: all of these improvements, by a TB stallion, appear in one generation of breeding.

It would appear from this example that the TB mare population could be improved radically over a couple of breeding generations and if you look at stallion photos on pedigreequery in the S1 - S3 and F1 - F3's, you can see that the TB has been brought to its knees conformationally in about 20 years of indiscriminate breeding for the next back-yard bred Kentucky Derby miracle.

So Coppermom, if you're following this thread and all the rest of us on the TB side of this argument, we face a very difficult decision as sport-horse breeders. The fact is, the US market now shies away from the TB (maybe with the exception of eventing).

Do we continue to cross our TB's with WB stallions and experience the critcicism of the German breeding organizations or do we strike out on our own? Can we afford to get the good TB mares, breed them to the good TB stallions of a type to produce a sport-horse and then win back the US market to buy the young horses?

As I see the current market, TB breeding has to be a personal crusade.

[Bayhawk]

Interesting choice of pictures to post of the mare and foal by Ibisco (who by the way is a black-type winning race horse with both sire lines from the US racing industry and a mare line that goes back to Landgraf through Ferro).

This discussion has repeatedly pointed out the conformation problems of the TB mare population, specifically noting the short neck. IMO this mare has a few conformational problems of her own, one of which is a short, very triangular neck, extremely heavily muscled on the underside compounded by a thick throat-latch. This mare was bred to a TB that improved her head and throat-latch and the neck of the foal is extremely improved for length and shape. For me, the foals front legs are exceptionally improved over the mare, he has longer pasterns with appropriate slope, he has her short cannons and his feet and angles look nearly perfect. However his hind legs don't do much for me (I suspect it's the photo problem). His back is shorter and his top-line is more harmonious than the mare's.

My point in noting the mare's conformation and the foals improvement is this: all of these improvements, by a TB stallion, appear in one generation of breeding.

It would appear from this example that the TB mare population could be improved radically over a couple of breeding generations and if you look at stallion photos on pedigreequery in the S1 - S3 and F1 - F3's, you can see that the TB has been brought to its knees conformationally in about 20 years of indiscriminate breeding for the next back-yard bred Kentucky Derby miracle.

So Coppermom, if you're following this thread and all the rest of us on the TB side of this argument, we face a very difficult decision as sport-horse breeders. The fact is, the US market now shies away from the TB (maybe with the exception of eventing).

Do we continue to cross our TB's with WB stallions and experience the critcicism of the German breeding organizations or do we strike out on our own? Can we afford to get the good TB mares, breed them to the good TB stallions of a type to produce a sport-horse and then win back the US market to buy the young horses?

As I see the current market, TB breeding has to be a personal crusade.

Very good post ! your critique of the foal is very good also but I would like to point out that Cassini I did an even better job. He has made two approved sons (Casiro I & II ) from this mare that are widely accepted as close to flawless. The breeder , Christiane Kuhn , did her part and gave one of her best PRODUCING mares to a TB. The foal is very nice but she doesn't want to keep her. The only reason is she is already breeding with 4 of Generation's daughters already. By breeding the mare Generation to Ibisco xx , she afforded herself the right to go straight back to Cassini I this year. I spoke with her and she is very pleased with Ibisco's contribution and highly suggests that she should also be bred to Cassini I when mature. Cassini I / Ibisco xx / Landgraf / Ramiro ...should be very nice. Will be intersting to see Ibisco's xx generational influence from Cassini I / Landgraf / Ramiro.

[Bayhawk]

The half bred colts win gold medals in Olympic eventing ;)

I'm sure Marius would agree !

[Equilibrium]

At the moment you could pick up a pretty decent, even black-type mare, for very little money.

But that's neither here nor there. I do believe the sporthorse and TB industry should work together in finding good quality TB stallions. Really some of the popular racing lines wouldn't necessarily be the best lines for sporthorses. I can think of the Danehill line here in Europe which has produced exceptional racehorses, but not always true to type and leaves some conformational faults along the way. He and his sons wouldn't be my first choice for improving a mare. That's why it's important to have honest (if they exist!) bloodstock person giving a bit of information as well. Look it, after all these years going to the yearling sales, time and time again the typiest horses always seem to hail from the same stallion lines. And then others seem to have no clear type and bascially it's up to the mare on how that youngster turns out. I feel this is important information especially when picking out stallions to use on warmbloods. Maybe it's not and I'm sorry I've babbled.

Need more TB stallions like Watermill Swatch in my opinion. Bred for racing but with strong sport horse lines. WS's full brother won a group 2 race in Germany I believe. Plus he is an amazing type. His youngstock are a pretty nice group as well.

Terri

[au_panda]

Not to bore everyone but I have to point out again the phenomenal mare line pedigree of Ibisco. His dam line tracks back to Landgraf through Ticino and Ferro. This stallion would be to die for for sport-horse breeding if he were available in the US due to both the components of his pedigree and their placement. For me, Landgraf appears in the best possible place in this pedigree, he is in the dam line, the very bottom of the pedigree.

I have looked at hundreds of TB mare pedigrees (and mares) over the last 7 years and here's my summary; the mare lines of the US TB mares are very poor for sport-horse breeding (and for that matter, for race breeding). I don't know how we ended up with so many producing stallions and so many mediocre mares. :no:

There is an exception - try this pedigree just for fun. She has Ticino (Ferro/Landgraf) in both her dam sire line and the dam line (see is in-bred Ticino). She was a successful show horse (hunter, beautiful jump and movement) prior to an injury. http://www.pedigreequery.com/sparsea+dawn

I am going to hope that Holstein hates Ibisco and someone ships him to the US. He's only 10.

[ne1]

I am going to hope that Holstein hates Ibisco and someone ships him to the US. He's only 10.

karen has the frozen here.

[alexandra]

Ibisco is so unliked, that his book was full right in the first year. He has also quite nice movement, so I may try him when I will take my Don Frederico mare back to the breeding shed.

Marius was born loooooong before this half TB Colt program was set up (I think last year). Marius comes form one of the oldes and most influential mare lines of Holstein as far as I know.

Does Watermill Swatch hacve a brother Watermill Stream or is this just coincidence ? (A Watermill Stream is owned by State Stud Celle)

Vineridge: The family bought Idun from Stud Schlenderhahn and Göddert Sybrecht discovered Royal Solo and bought him as stallion to stand at stud. Royal Solo unfortunately died after being kicked by a mare.

[ne1]

Marius was born loooooong before this half TB Colt program was set up (I think last year). Marius comes form one of the oldes and most influential mare lines of Holstein as far as I know.

yes, he has a maternal half sister, sprite by quidam who won several prixs in the last few years under laura chapot.

http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=315284

good sires? good stam? make of it what you will. :lol:

[Bayhawk]

"Marius was born loooooong before this half TB Colt program was set up (I think last year). Marius comes form one of the oldes and most influential mare lines of Holstein as far as I know."


Yes and Marius (Condrieu xx / Laurin ) was intended to be a filly for future breeding. Hans Werner Ritters told us so at his kitchen table last fall. He sold Marius as a young horse and lucky for Marius that he found himself in the right hands.

[EquineLVR]

Some one should be looking at Triple Twist- not many stallions around that carry the twist bloodlines. Which are proven jumpers.

[twistoffate]

Thanks EquineLVR!! I wish someone would! :)

[EquineLVR]

Thanks EquineLVR!! I wish someone would! :)

Its a damn shame that people aren't - he is a class act and sure can jump - and his bloodlines are precious.

[twistoffate]

I truly appreciate that. In the right hands I think he could leave a mark

[EquineLVR]

I truly appreciate that. In the right hands I think he could leave a mark

I completely agree.

[cottagefarm]

I truly appreciate that. In the right hands I think he could leave a mark

Love that boy. I have been keeping my eye on him for awhile. Maybe we should do a COTH syndicate :winkgrin:

[grayarabpony]

Can we afford to get the good TB mares, breed them to the good TB stallions of a type to produce a sport-horse and then win back the US market to buy the young horses?

As I see the current market, TB breeding has to be a personal crusade.

TB breeding may have to be a crusade, but so is anything that doesn't follow along with the crowd.

The cost of getting good TBs, both mares and stallions, is not prohibitive at all. They can often be picked up dirt cheap. It's the lack of contacts with the racing world that is the problem when someone is looking for something specific.

I have looked at hundreds of TB mare pedigrees (and mares) over the last 7 years and here's my summary; the mare lines of the US TB mares are very poor for sport-horse breeding (and for that matter, for race breeding). I don't know how we ended up with so many producing stallions and so many mediocre mares.

This is one of those comments that makes me go "????" If you're simply looking at the bottom of the pedigree, which is what the mareline is -- well, a horse is a lot more than a mareline. In reality there are many untapped TB sportslines still in existance and they are important whether they occur on the bottom, the middle or the top. Besides which, just looking at pedigrees is basically useless. A pedigree only tells you what a horse could have inherited.

I also think it's a shame that Triple Twist isn't being used more.

[au_panda]

From Grayarabpony: "This is one of those comments that makes me go "????" If you're simply looking at the bottom of the pedigree, which is what the mareline is -- well, a horse is a lot more than a mareline."

GAP, First of all, I am not looking exclusively at the mare line but I am looking at it which is what I think racing has failed to do in the run away race breeding economy of the last 10 years. Believe me, they are looking at it now in the difficult economy: in the last month, I have been offered several mares that are about to foal, one of which won over $175k on the track. She was offered to me because the race breeder has been offered mares that won significantly more than that, she in turn is pushing her less noteworthy mares out the door.

Anyone taking a TB mare off the track should critically evaluate the pedigree and it's indicated chances of producing jumping offspring. It's nearly impossible to get track people to trot a mare for you and it IS impossible, at the track, to ride or jump one to evaluate it before you take the risk of buying it. So your yard stick better include pedigree along with conformation and movement, to the degree you're allowed to see it, before they commit to her as a broodmare if they're not also going to develop her, first, as a competitive show horse.

[Tamara in TN]

So your yard stick better include pedigree along with conformation and movement, to the degree you're allowed to see it, before they commit to her as a broodmare if they're not also going to develop her, first, as a competitive show horse.

a mare can only be as good as her mother was....;)

which is to say she could always be better but she should never be worse

Tamara in TN

[Coppers mom]

From Grayarabpony: "This is one of those comments that makes me go "????" If you're simply looking at the bottom of the pedigree, which is what the mareline is -- well, a horse is a lot more than a mareline."

GAP, First of all, I am not looking exclusively at the mare line but I am looking at it which is what I think racing has failed to do in the run away race breeding economy of the last 10 years. Believe me, they are looking at it now in the difficult economy: in the last month, I have been offered several mares that are about to foal, one of which won over $175k on the track. She was offered to me because the race breeder has been offered mares that won significantly more than that, she in turn is pushing her less noteworthy mares out the door.

Anyone taking a TB mare off the track should critically evaluate the pedigree and it's indicated chances of producing jumping offspring. It's nearly impossible to get track people to trot a mare for you and it IS impossible, at the track, to ride or jump one to evaluate it before you take the risk of buying it. So your yard stick better include pedigree along with conformation and movement, to the degree you're allowed to see it, before they commit to her as a broodmare if they're not also going to develop her, first, as a competitive show horse.
Completely agreed.

The reason racing damlines tend to be so poor is the same reason people breeding to WB's have TB's with such poor damlines: it costs a lot less to get a lower quality mare. On top of a $15,000 stud fee, an $800 mare is a lot less of a kick in the pants than a $50,000 one. I can't tell you how many mares we've had come through the barn who's mother won barely over a grand, and father won into the hundreds of thousands. The same backwards, "the mare is just an incubator" logic is out there in all disciplines, unfortunately.

[Robin E]

Knock Wood owned by Newsprint Farm in PA is a SF stallion competing and is out of a full sister to Gem Twist by Olisco. Newsprint also owns Jouranlistic Gem who is his full sister. The woman stumbled upon the Gem Twist dam whose name escapes (RIP) and bred her a few times before loosing her.

Robin

[EquineLVR]

Knock Wood owned by Newsprint Farm in PA is a SF stallion competing and is out of a full sister to Gem Twist by Olisco. Newsprint also owns Jouranlistic Gem who is his full sister. The woman stumbled upon the Gem Twist dam whose name escapes (RIP) and bred her a few times before loosing her.

Robin

Do they have a website?

[paulamc]

The influence of tb blood is always very important in sporthorses, both jumping and dressage also

Personally i think that holstein and all other warmblood bodies should be looking for stallions in places like Australia and particularly New Zealand, where many of the worlds best staying TBs have come from.

These places breed horses specifically for the Melbourne Cup and other staying races, so there is still a large proportion of good staying tb lines being used

The US lines are not so good for performance horse breeding - much better to look elsewhere

Good sporthorse TB pedigrees always go back to the old english bloodlines - the great sire Blue Peter has Ladykiller as his grandfather, and all horses with blue peter in their pedigree will jump, this is how Australia won the gold medal at the Olympics three times running

Also the great sire Precipitation, who is the Tb sire of furioso, who has been so important in both jumping and dressage horse pedigrees - dressage horses such as Jazz,and Florestan
have Precipitation in about the 4th and 5th generation

Lauries crusador is no accident for dressage breeding - Tbs with the marvelous line of Tudor Melody have always traditionally been fantastic for dressage

As has been mentioned, the Tb of today, with the concentration of Danehill and Northern Dancer and Danzig, has been totally ruined for performance horse breeding. They are all bay, 15.2h, built downhill with massive rumps and chests and short necks and heavily muscled forearms and gaskins to propel the horse forward at great speed for short distances

It is almost impossible to get young TB mares who dont have about 4 crosses of this Northern Dancer line

if I am looking to buy a tB mare now she must be at least 15 years old and from the old english staying and hurdling lines

its the same with the search for stallions - you can buy stallions who go directly back to the wonderful blue peter and precipitation lines and all those wonderful old lines going back to Bay ronald, such as Habitat, Teddy, Gainsborough etc, this is what is needed to get these lines concentrated up close again

I just dont think the verbands are looking in the right places

My own Tb mares that i use for jump breeding, have at least 2 crosses of Blue Peter through his various sons, (with ladykiller as the grandfather), and also Precipitation through his various sons (sire of furioso)

There are so many good lines for jumping, Sir Ivor, Sir tristram, too many to list here, and many of you know these lines

I am always looking at the Tb pedigree critiques on this site, but i have never found any Blue peter or Precipitation in any of those horses
I am sure they are not just found in horses here in Australia and New Zealand, and you do have to go back to the 1930s which is why you need to have very old mares, or stallions with very old parents, and look for a concentration of these lines and other old english lines all in the one horse

This is a subject i could go on and on about, but i will stop there

Paulamc

[grayarabpony]

From Grayarabpony: "This is one of those comments that makes me go "????" If you're simply looking at the bottom of the pedigree, which is what the mareline is -- well, a horse is a lot more than a mareline."

GAP, First of all, I am not looking exclusively at the mare line but I am looking at it which is what I think racing has failed to do in the run away race breeding economy of the last 10 years. Believe me, they are looking at it now in the difficult economy: in the last month, I have been offered several mares that are about to foal, one of which won over $175k on the track. She was offered to me because the race breeder has been offered mares that won significantly more than that, she in turn is pushing her less noteworthy mares out the door.

Anyone taking a TB mare off the track should critically evaluate the pedigree and it's indicated chances of producing jumping offspring. It's nearly impossible to get track people to trot a mare for you and it IS impossible, at the track, to ride or jump one to evaluate it before you take the risk of buying it. So your yard stick better include pedigree along with conformation and movement, to the degree you're allowed to see it, before they commit to her as a broodmare if they're not also going to develop her, first, as a competitive show horse.

I know about racehorses, jumping and breeding, thanks. :) It's good to look at a pedigree, although all a pedigree will tell you is what a mare COULD do, not what she CAN do.

I wouldn't commit a mare to being a broodmare for jumping unless a) she could jump and b) she had held up to work.

The only thing consistent in the very bottom of the pedigree is going to be the mDNA, and among TBs there is little variation. Otherwise there is going to be change in each generation with input from the sire.

[Schiffon]

karen has the frozen here.

A friend of mine talked to Karen about it and she was told it is only available for Holsteiner Verband mares.

[RyTimMick]

[quote]although all a pedigree will tell you is what a mare COULD do, not what she CAN do.

This is true, as a broodmare we don't care what she can do. We only care about what she can produce.


The only thing consistent in the very bottom of the pedigree is going to be the mDNA

I don't agree...most daughters I see look like their mothers. So I would say type is consistent as well. I have also found that daughter tend to breed like their mother too.

[Go Fish]

As has been mentioned, the Tb of today, with the concentration of Danehill and Northern Dancer and Danzig, has been totally ruined for performance horse breeding. They are all bay, 15.2h, built downhill with massive rumps and chests and short necks and heavily muscled forearms and gaskins to propel the horse forward at great speed for short distance.

Thank you. When people post CANTER horses available, I look at the photos and cringe. Sporthorse prospect???? Uh, no.

I may get flamed for this, but I've purposely centered my breeding program (albeit a VERY small operation) around eliminating TB as much as possible. It's difficult, but I'm working on it.

[au_panda]

Also the great sire Precipitation, who is the Tb sire of furioso, who has been so important in both jumping and dressage horse pedigrees - dressage horses such as Jazz,and Florestan
have Precipitation in about the 4th and 5th generation

I am always looking at the Tb pedigree critiques on this site, but i have never found any Blue peter or Precipitation in any of those horses

Paulamc

Actually, this mare is in Calif http://www.pedigreequery.com/sparsea+dawn and has Precipitation, although as you point out, it's in the 6th generation back. She has a beautiful jump. She is 16 this year.

[sixpoundfarm]

I have two with Precipitation in the pedigree. One with him in the 4th, and her daughter, with him in the 5th.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sassastar
http://www.pedigreequery.com/starlett+six

Mom is due with a Federalist foal this month.

[ne1]

A friend of mine talked to Karen about it and she was told it is only available for Holsteiner Verband mares.


yes, i can verify this is now true. the horse is in training and not getting shipped here this year now. i don't know why the plan change, but its sad.... i'd consider him. maybe next year....

[ShannonD]

I have two with Precipitation in the pedigree. One with him in the 4th, and her daughter, with him in the 5th.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sassastar
http://www.pedigreequery.com/starlett+six

Mom is due with a Federalist foal this month.

Tracy that is interesting. My friend has a TB mare out of a Sassafras granddaughter who is/was quite the jumper herself.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/dads+shiny+penny

[grayarabpony]

Thank you. When people post CANTER horses available, I look at the photos and cringe. Sporthorse prospect???? Uh, no.

I may get flamed for this, but I've purposely centered my breeding program (albeit a VERY small operation) around eliminating TB as much as possible. It's difficult, but I'm working on it.

I knew someone would thank her for that ridiculous statement. :lol: My thought is that you'd look at photos of the top 100 of any sport and cringe.

One could find examples of any type of horse and try to make it sound as though all are like that. Just because someone says something doesn't make it even remotely true.

It's true that one would have to go through a lot of TBs to get what you wanted. But it's also true of warmbloods. Of the warmbloods I've seen locally, both in NC and PA where I've lived, I can count on one hand ones that I have actually coveted. There are still a lot out there who don't really carry themselves, don't have a good canter, can't jump that well... oh, and they don't go either.

I happen to have a warmblood (albeit with a high percentage of blood), and I really like the qualities that came from his warmblood sire. The sire himself has a high percentage of blood. I also really like the qualities that came from his TB mother. I've seen too many people riding old-fashioned warmbloods and completely red in the face trying to make the damned thing go. So I'm not sorry to that type go, myself.

btw, Thomas Edison happens to be a Northern Dancer great grandson: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/thomas+edison.

[paulamc]

To au panda and six pound farm

These are mares with lovely pedigrees. the Precipitation is very close up in six pound farms breeding, and also the Tudor lines are there. This combination is more of a Tb dressage pedigree

Also there are lots of lovely lines in all these mares, including all those lines that lead to Bay Ronald such as Pharos, hyperion, Fairway, Nasrullah, Fair Trial, Court martial, Gainsborough, Secretariat, Hurry on, and the very important Phalaris adn Mumtaz Begum lines

If you combine these lines with the precipitation and tudor lines you will have more of a dressage pedigree

If you have the Blue Peter lines with all these other lines its more of a jumping pedigree

Also the Blandford/Swynford lines are very important, and Ticino, ferro etc

Even though lines such as Precipitation may be far back, if you can double or triple cross them in the one mare or stallion, they still come through very strongly. So many important warmblood stallions have these lines as their TB base, and alot can be learnt from looking at the TB lines in these horses as to what works and what doesnt

You do see the Northern Dancer sometimes in these sport horse pedigrees, but you dont see Danehill or this line crossed in several times, it is just not appropriate

If you see TB mares for sale and they are 15 yrs plus then look up their pedigrees, i always do and sometimes you find a real gem

Many of these lines are in the 1930s and 40s, so i always look for a large concentration of these lines all in the one mare or stallion

I did very much like the pedigree in these mares more than many other Tb pedigrees i have seen on this site

I have always wondered why there is no discussion of Blue Peter and Precipitation in TB pedigree discussions, but it is good to finally see it here

Paulamc

[grayarabpony]

I have always wondered why there is no discussion of Blue Peter and Precipitation in TB pedigree discussions, but it is good to finally see it here

Paulamc

There certainly has been discussion of Precipitation here in the past, I think Blue Peter as well. He's not discussed very much when someone puts up a pedigree because he's often so far back. When I think of Precipitation I think of a very prepotent jump. One of the all-time great progenitor of jumpers.

The brilliant Ready Teddy (NZ TB) has Precipitation both top and bottom, and relatively close up: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ready+teddy2

I agree that there are some really lovely movers that are Tudor horses.

[ponygirl]

Actually, this mare is in Calif http://www.pedigreequery.com/sparsea+dawn and has Precipitation, although as you point out, it's in the 6th generation back. She has a beautiful jump. She is 16 this year.

I would love to see a photo of this mare.

[frisco1]

Nice to see people talk about this wonderful stallion!
This is the mare I tracked down after I fell in love with how one of her sons jumped.
www.pedigreequery.com/prim+miss

I was able to have two lovely fillies, both of whom have had fillies of their own.
I have competed the oldest in the hunter ring and the jumpers. True to her pedigree, she is amazing to the jumps.
Three of them have the same face as Precipitation. Well the Mare Prim Miss did as well.
I always read and try and study great sport horses lines, and find that this great Mare was lucky enough to carry a lot if them. I was a lucky person to find her. As with other people here I could go on about sport horse lines forever, but I am happiest reading about others experiences.

[Coppers mom]

Thank you. When people post CANTER horses available, I look at the photos and cringe. Sporthorse prospect???? Uh, no.

I may get flamed for this, but I've purposely centered my breeding program (albeit a VERY small operation) around eliminating TB as much as possible. It's difficult, but I'm working on it.

Just wanted to point out that by eliminating the TB as much as possible, you're setting yourself up to go back to the heavier, less athletic horse that WB's originally were.

The WB stallions these days that are used to lighten up mares are lighter because of the TB behind them. They are not going to continue passing on that lightness, as it's not an ingrained, reliable trait, due to the fact that they are crosses. It's not like with the Arab, for example, where they're that way and they've always been that way and that's what you're always going to get because of the closed book. Eventually, the type that is predominantly used (heavier WB type) is going to take over and eliminate the lightness that was splashed in there for good measure a few generations back. That's why the TB is continually used. If you take it completely out, you're going to eventually lose any lightness and athleticism.

And I'm not going to get into the whole "I look at the horses and cringe" statement other than you must not be looking at very many of them. A lot of the horses aren't what we'd be looking for, but the ones posted are, more often than not, quite nice. They are racing fit, which can throw off the eye and make you go "Ew" if you don't know what the horse will look like after some TLC.

[paulamc]

Wow, what a peformance pedigree Ready Teddy has. Actually there are alot of horses by Brilliant invador here in Australia, they are usually very expensive to buy

As was pointed out, yes Precipitation is in alot of jumper pedigrees, but he is also in dressage pedigrees such as Jazz, Florestan, Le Mexico etc etc

Agricola was a sire of super jumper horses, including Apache who jumped World Cup in Europe

I also associate Alcidyon with dressage pedigrees and Vain, if you can combine these with Precipitation and Tudor melody in a TB mare you have it made.

The other mares listed here have great pedigrees too, so good to see these instead of all these US lines that people post

Its unfortunate that these lines are being lost now, but it is still possible to find

As with Ready Teddy, there is Precipitation 3 times, once through Agricola and twice through Summertime, as well as Blue Peter through Masthead, and Tudor melody

If only we could find a TB stallion with all these lines to put over our warmblood mares

Paulamc

[Coppers mom]

Paulamc- I think that the reasons lines like this are going to be lost will be the lack of AI in the TB breeding industry. If a stallion is overseas, it doesn't matter how good he is or how much we'd like to breed to him, the Jockey Club still won't allow him to ship semen out. Many people only post US lines because that's all there is here, and there's not much you can do, short of importing something. If AI was allowed, it'd be much easier to produce a phenomenal stallion, but until then, one mostly has to hope for the good luck of finding something that was pretty much accidently well bred for what we want.

[paulamc]

Yes you are right, of course you would think the verbands would import something with these lines wouldnt you, surely there is someone in the verbands who knows about this sort of stuff

Sometimes i wonder though, we just had someone out here from the celle stud doing the hanoverian inspections, cant remember his name now but someone important in the celle stud in germany
When looking at TB mares he kept banging on about the correct type of TB to use in breeding, there was no talk of TB bloodlines at all. Simply looking at TB mares based on type is not at all reliable in terms of what they are going to produce, as there are many sprint bred mares in this country who are still of a good size
He kept saying we should be using our wonderful TB marebase as much as possible but only on their type. I really felt extremely disappointed in this, as there are so many new breeders who know nothing about these TB lines and will simply go out looking for mares that are 16.2h and start madly using frozen semen with them

Anyway, i do believe that it wont be long before AI is introduced into the TB industry, ireally dont see how much longer they can keep it out, i would think that within 10 years at the latest these stallions will be accessible via AI, but will anyone be able to afford to use them?

Paulamc

[grayarabpony]

Wow, what a peformance pedigree Ready Teddy has. Actually there are alot of horses by Brilliant invador here in Australia, they are usually very expensive to buy

As was pointed out, yes Precipitation is in alot of jumper pedigrees, but he is also in dressage pedigrees such as Jazz, Florestan, Le Mexico etc etc

Agricola was a sire of super jumper horses, including Apache who jumped World Cup in Europe

I also associate Alcidyon with dressage pedigrees and Vain, if you can combine these with Precipitation and Tudor melody in a TB mare you have it made.

The other mares listed here have great pedigrees too, so good to see these instead of all these US lines that people post

Its unfortunate that these lines are being lost now, but it is still possible to find

As with Ready Teddy, there is Precipitation 3 times, once through Agricola and twice through Summertime, as well as Blue Peter through Masthead, and Tudor melody

If only we could find a TB stallion with all these lines to put over our warmblood mares

Paulamc

Ready Teddy does have an amazing pedigree and he has really lived up to it too! I had the privilege of seeing him in person at the second water in Atlanta in '96.

I agree that there is still a mine of potential to be had among TBs, if only someone can dig it out. Wouldn't it be nice if a Brilliant Invador son or even daughter could make a mark on the sport breeding world, or another talented relative of Ready Teddy. As you say the bottom of his pedigree is gold too.

Prim Miss and East by North sound wonderful.