Some Interesting reading for SHN Payback Participants - NO PAYOUTS for 2011

[stripes]

:no:http://forums.arabianbreeders.net/topic/33878-shn-payback-has-a-new-website/

I'm not sure that all of the stallion owners know what's going on. As someone who loves Arabians and loves Sport Horses and really feels this program started out as a great thing - it is now being torn into 2 separate entities without any real explanation from the person tearing it apart, which in the opinion of many is the original founder. I just thought the WB breeders who so awesomely donated to the "original" SHN Payback program should see the whole story and know that their donations are now listed on another website as well as the original website.

Disclaimer - this is worse than a Soap Opera, and I'm sorry I feel the need to post. But the original program is in trouble =(

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is sad to see this happen. With a split like this, no one wins. It is important to be able to work together. I think many of us will wait to see how this plays out over the next few months before deciding on next years donation.

[Daventry]

I am getting so tired of seeing a great program or great registry get ripped apart by the people involved because they can't find a way to work together! :no: The solution is always "I'm going to start a new Registry/Program", instead of picking the best solution, which is fixing the one you already have! The drama gets old fast, and the rest of us all get to the point that we do NOT want to get involved anymore. Oy vei! :rolleyes:

[stripes]

Just wanted to say that Peggy, the one that we have all being dealing with, is trying to hold it together. My hope is that the stallion owners will choose to stay with her and keep things going. This program has been great for Arabian Sport Horses. I'm very saddened to see that some people can't be mature enough to put personal stuff aside for the good of something greater.

[Daventry]

Well, I have to say that I am appauled that all three of our stallions have been posted on the shnpayback.org AND the sporthorsepayback.com!!!! Neither website asked for a contract from us, one of the websites not even asking for permission to use our stallions. What if a stud fee had been purchased off of both websites? :no: We have asked that our stallions be removed from both "programs". I'm sorry, but what an embarassing mess. Daventry Farms is definitely no longer in support of any of it.

[Tamara in TN]

Just wanted to say that Peggy, the one that we have all being dealing with, is trying to hold it together. My hope is that the stallion owners will choose to stay with her and keep things going. This program has been great for Arabian Sport Horses. I'm very saddened to see that some people can't be mature enough to put personal stuff aside for the good of something greater.


it would appall me to see on the frontispiece of a futurity website 700 words about how "someone else sucked so bad but we are holding it together...oh by the way send money,donations blah blah blah to hold our futurity together...."

what?

little lesson in consumer confidence 101...

no one wants to hear your dirty business on the first glance....if you have so much dirty business that it overwhelms what you are trying to do,perhaps the whole thing should be put on hold til you fix it...no ??

Tamara in TN
no cameras anywhere

[stripes]

it would appall me to see on the frontispiece of a futurity website 700 words about how "someone else sucked so bad but we are holding it together...oh by the way send money,donations blah blah blah to hold our futurity together...."

what?

little lesson in consumer confidence 101...

no one wants to hear your dirty business on the first glance....if you have so much dirty business that it overwhelms what you are trying to do,perhaps the whole thing should be put on hold til you fix it...no ??

Tamara in TN
no cameras anywhere

That is my point. Anyone who has used this program knows that Peggy Ingles is the heart of it and would never do what the new program has suggested.

the SportHorsePayback.com is the original program, Peggy had to change the domain due to Laura's take over. To Daventry, I hope you read this and reconsider the original Payback - you did sign a contract with that Payback program, the one based in MD. with Peggy Ingles as the adminstrator. It is a wonderful program that has served many very well.

My point with posting this here was that I knew stallion owners had not been properly informed of what was going on. And I thought both sides should be presented.

[Grataan]

Yeah she posted that same "Shn payback has a new website" thread here a while back.

eta: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242859&highlight=shn+payback

[ljshorses]

I have known Peggy and have supported HER program for years. This is a case of someone wanting a peice of the action and trying to take it over from the one who started it all. Shame on you (whoever is behind the take over), I am embarrassed to be associated at all now and it's due to the mishandling of this situation. All should be adults and do what's right for the program and stop this silliness. I bought a breeding and have done so for years but will only deal with Peggy on this so next year I may keep my money and my support. Such a shame because it WAS a great program.

[stripes]

I have known Peggy and have supported HER program for years. This is a case of someone wanting a peice of the action and trying to take it over from the one who started it all. Shame on you (whoever is behind the take over), I am embarrassed to be associated at all now and it's due to the mishandling of this situation. All should be adults and do what's right for the program and stop this silliness. I bought a breeding and have done so for years but will only deal with Peggy on this so next year I may keep my money and my support. Such a shame because it WAS a great program.

Sad isn't it. I think what irks me the most is that 2 out 3 of the new BOD has profitted greatly from this program and the first classes announced for Payout at SHN are classes they themselves will have horses in - HUGE COI.

[pegasus44]

I have tried to keep SO's informed, as I consider them the "boss."

This coup attempt is not only illegal, but unethical on so many levels. It will get rectified and a great prize money program, perhaps in another name, will rise from this. All previous enrollments will be honored.

I am very grateful for everyone's support, now and in the past.

Please don't hesitate to contact me with any concerns.

Peggy Ingles
pegasus44@verizon.net
410/823-5579

[allanglos]

That is my point. Anyone who has used this program knows that Peggy Ingles is the heart of it and would never do what the new program has suggested.

the SportHorsePayback.com is the original program, Peggy had to change the domain due to Laura's take over. To Daventry, I hope you read this and reconsider the original Payback - you did sign a contract with that Payback program, the one based in MD. with Peggy Ingles as the adminstrator. It is a wonderful program that has served many very well.

My point with posting this here was that I knew stallion owners had not been properly informed of what was going on. And I thought both sides should be presented.

My takeover? How can I takeover a program that is run by a Board of Directors? The new website at www.shnpayback.org was required to keep the program going, as Peggy had sabotaged our old website by removing multiple pages and by killing the credit card purchase ability. Since she had registered the domain in her name instead of doing the proper thing and registering it in the company name, and since she would not give us access to our own website, we were forced to open a new website. The website at www.shnpayback.org is still the original program, is still recognized by the IRS as the original organization, is still registered in MD, and is still run by a BOD. The only "takeover" is Peggy trying to launch her own website without the BOD's knowledge or approval. Her new website is not run by a BOD but only by Peggy. Any money she collects she is putting in her own personal account for who knows what purpose. She has no stallions donated to her new program, but is trying to take ours.

Further, the SHN Payback program was never "administered" by Peggy. It was and is run by a Board of Directors and Officers. What duties Peggy did have, she resigned from.

Her refusal to follow the laws of the State of MD regarding non-profits is why we have secured an attorney, who will be protecting the rights of the stallion owners and the corporation.

[ljshorses]

I think the main problem here is that the program grew very big very fast. As Peggy was trying to set up paypal and correct credit card usage issues as well as make sure all was legally registered, some BOD members got nervous and jumped before looking. I think if they were to organize and work together none of this would of happened. I think that this was a fear reaction and lack of communication. If I ever support this program again I would really like to see one website and members working together not attacking each other. The "takeover" in my opinion was unprofessional and detrimental to the program as a whole.

[Grataan]

I read the entire thread on ABN and I find it extremely interesting that Laura has the time to come and post HERE but refuses to answer stallion owners' questions THERE on a thread SHE STARTED HERSELF.

LOL.

I'm so glad I didn't enroll Treasure when he qualified.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Where is the money now from the sold breedings for 2010?

I guess at this point is will all be gone to legal fees, and the winner will just be whoever has control of the money to pay for them.

Sad.

[stripes]

My takeover? How can I takeover a program that is run by a Board of Directors? The new website at www.shnpayback.org was required to keep the program going, as Peggy had sabotaged our old website by removing multiple pages and by killing the credit card purchase ability. Since she had registered the domain in her name instead of doing the proper thing and registering it in the company name, and since she would not give us access to our own website, we were forced to open a new website. The website at www.shnpayback.org is still the original program, is still recognized by the IRS as the original organization, is still registered in MD, and is still run by a BOD. The only "takeover" is Peggy trying to launch her own website without the BOD's knowledge or approval. Her new website is not run by a BOD but only by Peggy. Any money she collects she is putting in her own personal account for who knows what purpose. She has no stallions donated to her new program, but is trying to take ours.

Further, the SHN Payback program was never "administered" by Peggy. It was and is run by a Board of Directors and Officers. What duties Peggy did have, she resigned from.

Her refusal to follow the laws of the State of MD regarding non-profits is why we have secured an attorney, who will be protecting the rights of the stallion owners and the corporation.

Laura - show us where the BOD of the MD based program voted Peggy off and dissolved the Non Profit. Show us the minutes. Fact is that you started a whole new & separate enitity in Fl. and took the stallion list with you. There was NO BOD even in place to have a vote to vote anyone off. Isn't that how most of this started? Peggy wanted a 5 member BOD and you didn't - I believe you said too many people will not agree. From your actions, I'm guessing you didn't want anyone to disagree with you. As it stands now, your new program has a BOD which 2 of the 3 stand to profit from this program which is a HUGE COI and one that stallion owners should know about. By choosing classes that you know you will showing in is ethically wrong. Your new program will never be legal until you deal with the original and only valid Payback program in MD. Stallion owners needed to be contacted before you did anything! Now their stallions are not only listed with the MD payback where the have legal contracts, but also listed with your Fl. without any contract. You need to stop hiding behind this ridiculous idea of a BOD and step up and start providing proof of your accusations and answering the questions of the people who have a vested interest in Payback.

[stripes]

I read the entire thread on ABN and I find it extremely interesting that Laura has the time to come and post HERE but refuses to answer stallion owners' questions THERE on a thread SHE STARTED HERSELF.

LOL.

I'm so glad I didn't enroll Treasure when he qualified.

Glad someone caught that little fact. I loved when she claimed to not know about the thread. Too much not adding up for Laura. Peggy has been nothing but up front and transparent. Its pretty easy to see what is going on.

[ljshorses]

I read the other thread too. It seems as Laura may have been caught...I guess she wanted control so as to benefit her horses that show in the program. Not cool to have someone in charge of a program and also competing in said program and handling their competitor's money???? Something smells really fishy here and I better not have issues with the breeding I purchased. It was an expensive one (Rousseau) so my husband, who is a Maryland attorney will now be getting an earful from me. I want him to check into this and Peggy, if you need his legal assistance just say the word, I am sure he would be more than happy to help you. This is such a shame. Peggy has always been wonderful to work with and always quickly responds to all my questions. Laura asked that I stop my payment that I sent to Peggy and reissue a check to her (another breeding that I decided not to purchase)...I didn't like the sound of that. I originally planned on buying two stud fees but will just stay with the Rousseau for now and that unfortunately may be my last check to the program I have supported for years. Thanks Laura for screwing up a really good thing.

[arizona101]

Well, I have to say that I am appauled that all three of our stallions have been posted on the shnpayback.org AND the sporthorsepayback.com!!!! Neither website asked for a contract from us, one of the websites not even asking for permission to use our stallions. What if a stud fee had been purchased off of both websites? :no: We have asked that our stallions be removed from both "programs". I'm sorry, but what an embarassing mess. Daventry Farms is definitely no longer in support of any of it.

Well darn! It was one of your stallions breedings that I was hoping to purchase when this whole mess blew over. I am glad I waited.

[pegasus44]

Over my dead body will there be one penny spent on legal fees.

The law is very clear. Both the Sec. of State in MD and the Atty Gen'l in FL are investigating Laura's attempt to transfer anything from the non-profit MD corp to the new FL corp. They have both used words such as "fraud," "misrepresentation," and "felony."

This program ran like a top for two years and had a great future. What a shame for all of our supporters :-(

Peggy

[Hilltopfarmva]

Well, I am new to it this year. Recommended by Alexis Starer as she thought my little TB stallion would be a nice cross for some of the Arabians out there. His first crop are 3 yr olds and will be hitting the show ring this summer. Anyhow, I am only interested in Peggy running the program as she is who was recommended. I want my stallion removed from the FL list. it is a shame such a good organization has been harmed by this crap and hoping it can get resolved as I have talked to many people very happy with the past results.

Good luck Peggy. I support you.

[ljshorses]

Over my dead body will there be one penny spent on legal fees.

The law is very clear. Both the Sec. of State in MD and the Atty Gen'l in FL are investigating Laura's attempt to transfer anything from the non-profit MD corp to the new FL corp. They have both used words such as "fraud," "misrepresentation," and "felony."

This program ran like a top for two years and had a great future. What a shame for all of our supporters :-(

Peggy

I am sure hubby would help as a volunteer (law services) since he too supports all that you have done to make the program so great. I am so sorry that you are going through this mess.

[Cold Spring Farm]

Perhaps I am a bit Pollyanna-ish here, but I have to believe that this program will prevail.

It was a brilliant idea and was extremely well-executed by Peggy. I prefer to see this as a glitch -- a rather ugly one at that -- but I do not think it is insurmountable.

Once this side-show gets resolved, I have every confidence that Peggy will have the program running smoothly again in short order. And in fact, I would venture to guess that it will be better than ever.

[Grataan]

I thought it was kinda hinky to have someone who stands to benefit from the program be an administrator. I liked the fact that supposedly Ms. Prine-Carr had recused herself from activities with/for the BOD (well, at least in the beginning of the ABN thread, according to Laura) since she actively shows Arab SH.

I liked the fact that Peggy was familiar with Arabians but no longer showed (I'm sad that she is unable to show but pleased that she remains involved with the breed as a whole) so she had no real COI.

I wouldn't have a problem with say, Doug Stewart or Christy Defoe-Stewart (did I spell that right?) being on the BOD because they are very active in Arabian and HA showing but do not currently show sporthorse (I could be wrong-tried to pick random trainer I see in mags/at Nationals-I'm not in their region) so they have no COI.

I think that the classes that are paid out should start with "the basics" like: *SHIH mares, stallions/geldings of x age group and up*
*SHSH*
*HOF xyz height*
*Dressage xyz level and up*
*Jumper xyz height*

Then as we want to add more classes should the money become available, it should be voted on by members OF THE COMMUNITY. Have a big meeting at SHN and say "the following classes have payouts requested for NEXT show season, we can afford to payout to N number of classes, so vote for your N favorites" and have the results tabulated by an accounting firm. Let the people pick. Let the stallion owners vote by mail. Let the people who have purchased breedings vote as well.

I'm sure Peggy made mistakes. But the difference is she has posted all the financials online and answered many questions on the ABN and here regarding specifics.

Laura, on the other hand, has behaved like a politician. She reposts the same spin every time, then says "I've answered questions"

[allanglos]

I think the main problem here is that the program grew very big very fast. As Peggy was trying to set up paypal and correct credit card usage issues as well as make sure all was legally registered, some BOD members got nervous and jumped before looking. I think if they were to organize and work together none of this would of happened. I think that this was a fear reaction and lack of communication. If I ever support this program again I would really like to see one website and members working together not attacking each other. The "takeover" in my opinion was unprofessional and detrimental to the program as a whole.

I don't know where you are getting this, but there were no credit card issues, or problems setting up PayPal or with legally registering anything. She had the PayPal account all to herself for 2 years. It was set up and established. When we asked for the access to the account for our own organization, she refused. It is very easy to have a "multiple users" PayPal account, but Peggy wouldn't hear of it. She didn't want anyone seeing the transactions but herself. Even after the BOD opened a new PayPal account that was accessible to everyone on the BOD, she refused to put it on the website or to utilize it.

That other website is completely not authorized. It is not run by the BOD, and it is not related to SHN Payback. Peggy going off on her own and opening a website and trying to claim that it is SHN Payback is just plain nuts. It is another example of her doing whatever she wants, regardless of the decisions of the Board of Directors and for what is in the best interests of the program. Just like her going all over the Internet whining about her being released from the BOD.

[allanglos]

I read the entire thread on ABN and I find it extremely interesting that Laura has the time to come and post HERE but refuses to answer stallion owners' questions THERE on a thread SHE STARTED HERSELF.

LOL.

I'm so glad I didn't enroll Treasure when he qualified.

First off, if you have questions, then ask us the questions using the email address we provided. As I have said before, that web forum is very difficult to load and the server here overeas bogs down and stops while trying.

If peope have questions on that other forum, they need to ASK US by writing us and not assuming we have read them there, as we have not. It is not a matter of "refusing" but a matter of the proper way to ask someone a question.

Why you think it is "interesting" is beyond me.

[allanglos]

Where is the money now from the sold breedings for 2010?

I guess at this point is will all be gone to legal fees, and the winner will just be whoever has control of the money to pay for them.

Sad.

The money from the sold breedings is where it is supposed to be per the organizations Bylaws, minus the funds Peggy has not returned to us.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Just like her going all over the Internet whining about her being released from the BOD.

I thought you said she resigned? So which is it, she was released, or she resigned?

WHAT BOD? The BOD was Peggy and Laura. So she voted herself off the island?

If peope have questions on that other forum, they need to ASK US by writing us and not assuming we have read them there, as we have not.

No possible way you are not following that dicsussion. I sure would be, even if it took 10 minutes to load a page, or I had to borrow someone's iphone, etc.

The money from the sold breedings is where it is supposed to be per the organizations Bylaws.

So it is with the MD registered non-profit?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Why don't the two of you allow us to see all of the facts, minutes, documents, etc. Post them, and the order that each of you think things happened, emails, dates, etc. Prepare, and lay out your full case. Let the SO and breeders here be the court of who is right and wronged.

The way things are, the program will be destroyed, because if this continues to be a huge fight, courts brought into it, etc, no one will support any of it.

The exception will be if it is found that someone has committed fraud, etc. Then the other party will get the support.

[ljshorses]

Very well put Darlyn, right now it's all heresay and no one knows the "actual" truth. I know the program was run by Peggy for 2 years without issue so I am naturally going to wonder why now there is a problem. I know Peggy and I find the accusations of her doing anything wrong unsettling. She has always been professional and quick to answer all questions. I don't know Laura but that doesn't mean she isn't a reputable person as well. For all WE (breeders,stallion owners) know this is a cat fight that went to cyberspace. If the minutes etc.. were posted as Darlyn suggested then we can all decide since we are all apart of this organization. There should be no reason that meeting minutes should not be published to members, ever. That's when suspicion and innuendo occurs.

[pegasus44]

Half truths and untruths are really becoming a habit with you, aren't they Laura Wood?

As anyone with a Paypal account knows, there is a limit to the amount you can withdraw per month UNLESS you give them a Social Security number to link to it, even if it is a business account. I gave them mine. When I requested they change it, they said the account would have to be closed and a new one opened. There was NO WAY I was giving Laura access when they told me that! So, credit cards had to be put on hold until Laura set up a new account. Takes 3 days max.

And no, I wasn't going to reprogram 300+ BUY NOW buttons for you, Laura. That's all yours. It would have taken me days.

When Laura started the new Florida corp, she posted those by-laws etc on the Payback site as though that was the true non-profit. It is not. It has no status with the IRS and cannot utilize the current Payback one.

She NEVER contacted the stallion owners of a new corporation selling their breedings. She never asked their permission to do so. This was not the program they signed up for at all. (Laura even changed the 100% Payout structure by taking a percentage for admin fees, without disclosing it.)

So I restored the original website to ensure the entities remain separate. Most all of the stallion owners have supported this. I am still a Director of the MD corp.

I did confirm with the bank today that the funds are still where they belong. I will post an accounting of the assets later today.

[allanglos]

Laura - show us where the BOD of the MD based program voted Peggy off and dissolved the Non Profit. Show us the minutes. Fact is that you started a whole new & separate enitity in Fl. and took the stallion list with you. There was NO BOD even in place to have a vote to vote anyone off. Isn't that how most of this started? Peggy wanted a 5 member BOD and you didn't - I believe you said too many people will not agree. From your actions, I'm guessing you didn't want anyone to disagree with you. As it stands now, your new program has a BOD which 2 of the 3 stand to profit from this program which is a HUGE COI and one that stallion owners should know about. By choosing classes that you know you will showing in is ethically wrong. Your new program will never be legal until you deal with the original and only valid Payback program in MD. Stallion owners needed to be contacted before you did anything! Now their stallions are not only listed with the MD payback where the have legal contracts, but also listed with your Fl. without any contract. You need to stop hiding behind this ridiculous idea of a BOD and step up and start providing proof of your accusations and answering the questions of the people who have a vested interest in Payback.

Odd how just because Peggy says something, you take it as fact. How about asking Peggy to show where the BOD authorized her new website? How about asking Peggy for the minutes that authorized her to remove $18,700 from the organizations bank account and put in her private account? How about asking Peggy for the minutes where the BOD suthorized her to open bank accounts in only her name? But wait, how can there be any minutes if the BOD doesn't exist? How can you say you want to see minutes when in the next breath you say there is no BOD? Seems your sword is double edged.

Here are the facts: The board of directors voted Peggy off the BOD on 1 Feb and notified her in writing of this decision. She had known since December that we were considering this due to her recent decisions and she knew the vote was in Feb. No big surprise.

I have no idea why you think there was no BOD. There absolutely was and is a BOD. If you look at our Charter in MD, it says in the seventh article that there are THREE directors. Just before this, Peggy distributed a Press Release that lists Patience as a co-director. If Patience wasn't a director, why would Peggy tell the world two years ago that she was? Its just too convenient now, when we vote her off, that she tries to claim there was no BOD. Further, if you read our weekly email blasts, the first paragraph was signed by me as a "director". Why would Peggy say there is no BOD, when every week she would send out a newsletter with me as a director?

So, how did we decide on a BOD of three? Peggy and I discussed it and WE decided it would be the best, as WE wanted to simplify our organization. Peggy only brought up possibly adding more directors AFTER she learned that she may be voted off. It was her attempt to save her neck. It had nothing to do with the health of the organization. Adding more directors was not the issue. The issue was Peggy.

How can you possibly say there is a COI? We have a very nice cross section of classes that are selected by the BOD, including Peggy when she was on the board. Saying there is a COI is like saying all the Sweepstakes commissioners have a COI because they show in Sweepstakes classes. And for your information, Peggy also stands to win prize money, as the get of her stallion are eligible to win prize money, making her stallion eligible to win cash awards, as well as increases the value of her stallion's get and brings in breedings to her stallion. If I wanted to design this program to benefit me, I would have had all the payout in amateur classes, but you will notice every class pays the open divisions, not amateur. Have you looked at the class list? I don't show in driving or dressage, or jumpers, or the In-Hand classes. This list was designed to encourage the MAXIMUM participation, and the huge majority of classes I don't even show in, and Patience only shows in one of them, GP dressage!

Where in heavens name do you think we dissolved our incorporation in MD? That is simply not true in any sense. The only reason we registered in FL was to protect our organization until we could secure a replacement resident agent for our MD registration. Peggy is using this as a "weapon" to fool everyone into thinking we are now a new organization. Not even close to reality. We have since found a new MD resident agent, a law firm in MD. There is absolutely nothing "illegal" in what we did to protect Payback.

[allanglos]

Over my dead body will there be one penny spent on legal fees.

The law is very clear. Both the Sec. of State in MD and the Atty Gen'l in FL are investigating Laura's attempt to transfer anything from the non-profit MD corp to the new FL corp. They have both used words such as "fraud," "misrepresentation," and "felony."

This program ran like a top for two years and had a great future. What a shame for all of our supporters :-(

Peggy

Oh puleeze! What a crock!

[ljshorses]

What's the name of the law firm in Md?
What's the corporation number of the non-profit in Fl?
What's the corporation number of the non-profit in MD?
Where are the minutes posted on the decision to remove one of the directors?
What proof is there that Peggy committed fraud or took money etc.. and if she had done this why was she not charged? Isn't that illegal?
Who all was allowed to vote when the decision was made on whether to keep or not keep Peggy? Shouldn't members be allowed to vote on what directors they want?
What fees are paid to what adminstrators?
What is the balance in the Fl account?
What is the balance in the Md account?
Is Patience aware of all of this and if so what is her opinion?
What stallion owners recently pulled out and why?
Why if things ran smoothly for 2 years would the very person responsible for the program be voted off?

I think if the above questions and maybe some more were answered, then WE could all decide for ourselves.

[stripes]

Odd how just because Peggy says something, you take it as fact. How about asking Peggy to show where the BOD authorized her new website? How about asking Peggy for the minutes that authorized her to remove $18,700 from the organizations bank account and put in her private account? How about asking Peggy for the minutes where the BOD suthorized her to open bank accounts in only her name? But wait, how can there be any minutes if the BOD doesn't exist? How can you say you want to see minutes when in the next breath you say there is no BOD? Seems your sword is double edged.
Laura - show us the minutes. Where's the proof that any BOD did anything? This question has been put to you many mnay times. As far as we know there has never been a formal BOD or any By Laws adopted for the original MD Payback. Prove otherwise.

Here are the facts: The board of directors voted Peggy off the BOD on 1 Feb and notified her in writing of this decision. She had known since December that we were considering this due to her recent decisions and she knew the vote was in Feb. No big surprise.
Interesting that this happened in Feb., since you started a NEW Payback in Fl. in Jan. without notifiying anybody. And again, where are the minutes. You yourself posted back in Jan. on the thread you say you don't follow that the BOD voted her off in Jan. Agian, where are the minutes?

I have no idea why you think there was no BOD. There absolutely was and is a BOD. If you look at our Charter in MD, it says in the seventh article that there are THREE directors. Just before this, Peggy distributed a Press Release that lists Patience as a co-director. If Patience wasn't a director, why would Peggy tell the world two years ago that she was? Its just too convenient now, when we vote her off, that she tries to claim there was no BOD. Further, if you read our weekly email blasts, the first paragraph was signed by me as a "director". Why would Peggy say there is no BOD, when every week she would send out a newsletter with me as a director?
It was never formally in place. Prove otherwise.


So, how did we decide on a BOD of three? Peggy and I discussed it and WE decided it would be the best, as WE wanted to simplify our organization. Peggy only brought up possibly adding more directors AFTER she learned that she may be voted off. It was her attempt to save her neck. It had nothing to do with the health of the organization. Adding more directors was not the issue. The issue was Peggy.

How can you possibly say there is a COI? We have a very nice cross section of classes that are selected by the BOD, including Peggy when she was on the board. Saying there is a COI is like saying all the Sweepstakes commissioners have a COI because they show in Sweepstakes classes. And for your information, Peggy also stands to win prize money, as the get of her stallion are eligible to win prize money, making her stallion eligible to win cash awards, as well as increases the value of her stallion's get and brings in breedings to her stallion. If I wanted to design this program to benefit me, I would have had all the payout in amateur classes, but you will notice every class pays the open divisions, not amateur. Have you looked at the class list? I don't show in driving or dressage, or jumpers, or the In-Hand classes. This list was designed to encourage the MAXIMUM participation, and the huge majority of classes I don't even show in, and Patience only shows in one of them, GP dressage!

Patience shows in more than GP dressage with more than 1 horse, are you really saying that she only has one horse showing??? Her clients have benefited nicely from the program. What is interesting is that the first classes that are posted as being SHN Payback classes are classes that YOU and HER will have the chance to WIN some cash. That is a clear case of COI. YOU are choosing classes that YOU show in. It was really simple to see. And you do show IN HAND - OMG Laura your stallion was National Ch. IN HAND - :no:

Where in heavens name do you think we dissolved our incorporation in MD? That is simply not true in any sense. The only reason we registered in FL was to protect our organization until we could secure a replacement resident agent for our MD registration. Peggy is using this as a "weapon" to fool everyone into thinking we are now a new organization. Not even close to reality. We have since found a new MD resident agent, a law firm in MD. There is absolutely nothing "illegal" in what we did to protect Payback.
I know you didn't dissolve the MD Payback, that was my point. You started a whole new program in FL without dissolving the MD one or legally connecting them in any way. You cannot legally take from the MD Payback and use it for the FL without going through legalities. Period.



Laura you need to address the questions on the forums, as Paybak has always been very active on the forums. You need to provide PROOF of your accusations. Peggy has always been and continues to be very professional and upfront. As you can see, NO ONE is buying it.

[pegasus44]

There are only 2 Directors, Laura and myself. Here are the corporate records, type in SHN PAYBACK INC.

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/UCC-Charter/CharterSearch_f.aspx

We never adopted by-laws. I know, dumb. Never added any other Directors, all organizing docs list only Laura & myself, both with the State and the IRS.

Now, Laura has publicly proclaimed there ARE by-laws from 2007, but won't show them (there aren't any)

She claimed I resigned, then that I was voted out. Huh? Still hasn''t produced evidence of notification of a BOD meeting or minutes.

This started in Nov. when Laura started changing access and notifications for the bank accounts without rhyme or reason. This after TWO YEARS of never showing any interest in any of it. After a month of this nonsense, I got worried, wouldn't you? As treasurer, I had a fiduciary duty to protect the assets.

A business person I know advised me to move the $$ temporarily to a Payback account Laura couldn't access and get a Fidelity Bond to protect it. I told her what I was doing and she went ballistic, even "fired" me.

Then it turns out the bonding company requirescountersigning of checks and our bank would not enforce that, so I couldn't get the bond. No longer willing to be responsible for what I couldn't protect, I sent the $$ back to the original account and resigned my duties as Treasurer. To protect myself, I hired a CPA to do an internal review.

Of course, rather than at least understanding my motives for doing this, Laura took the low road. Accusing me of all kinds of crap, and it has not stopped yet. Despite me eliminating the Paypal account to prevent further accusations; despite giving her total control of email correspondence, despite transferring the website to the new webmaster....nothing is enough. She has continued with these accusations, as you can see. Great grounds for a lawsuit I've been told.

This FL corporation was an obvious attempt to get around the fact that I am still a Director of SHN PAYBACK INC. and she cannot do anything to change that.

I have the entire email trail of this time period...it tells the tale.

[Grataan]

I don't show in driving or dressage, or jumpers, or the In-Hand classes.

OH REALLY?

Are you not Laura J. Wood of Brooksville, FL, owner of the 2009 US National Champion HA/AA SHIH Stallion SIGNAL BEY?

http://issuu.com/arabianhorseworld/docs/2009_sporthorse_nat_results view page 1, class 7 (second column towards the bottom)

[stripes]

Well here's a complete list of the winners of the Payback from 2009, from Laura's own website

http://www.shnpayback.org/payout.html

Note that the following horses are owned by Laura or shown by Patience

OKW Entrigue
Signal Bey
Glitter Bey
ADF Scarlet Ohara

[phanilah]

First off, if you have questions, then ask us the questions using the email address we provided. As I have said before, that web forum is very difficult to load and the server here overeas bogs down and stops while trying.

If peope have questions on that other forum, they need to ASK US by writing us and not assuming we have read them there, as we have not. It is not a matter of "refusing" but a matter of the proper way to ask someone a question.


Laura, this is the same disingenuous crap you posted on the other forum when trying to get out of providing the information that you KNOW has been asked of you. So, since you want to pretend you haven't seen that discussion, here is the post I made over there the other day - because it applies equally to the comment above. [references below to "the thread" are in regard to the thread at ABN]

Beth
**********

Laura, this comment is just simply disingenuous on your part. For starters, YOU started this thread, so of course you and the BOD knew about it, so why are you claiming "the BOD posted early on when we became aware of this thread". You have also been very aware since the day after YOU started this thread that people have requested a copy of the bylaws, BOD minutes, etc. so they could understand how this whole change in leadership has happened. Again, YOU HAVE BEEN READING and POSTING to this thread, so you know full well those requests have been made. So, trying to claim that because people have asked on the forum and not via email is just a cop out on your part.

Also, a comment WAS made to you via our club E-MAIL list that if you didn't provide the information about the organization structure that was being requested by numerous people, _that_ would cause far more problems than any personal issues between you and Peggy. I know you saw that email, because you claimed you didn't want to get into a mud slinging match, so didn't want to respond on the forum. From what I've seen on this thread, you haven't had any problem with the mud slinging part on this discussion, yet you still refuse to provide the information that has been requested numerous times and now you want to claim that because people haven't requested the information via e-mail, that requests haven't been real or legitimate?

A real leader would have responded to the requests for information, they wouldn't have handled it the way you have chosen to. So before you continue the claims that Peggy is responsible for the pushback the Payback Program is getting right now, take a good look in the mirror. You have playged a HUGE PART in how this whole situation has progressed, so step up to the plate and take responsibility for it - like a real leader would.

Beth

[stripes]

I don't show in driving or dressage, or jumpers, or the In-Hand classes.

After reading this and thinking about it, not only do you show In Hand with your Anglo stallion, but your PB Arabian stallion is showing dressage too.

[phanilah]

Laura wrote:
If you look at our Charter in MD, it says in the seventh article that there are THREE directors.

That article also says:
“SEVENTH: The number of directors of the corporation shall be _three_ which number may be increased or decreased pursuant to the bylaws of the corporation. The name(s) of the director(s) who shall act until the first meeting or until their successors are duly chosen and qualified is/are _Margaret S. Ingles_.”

So, again – please provide a copy of the bylaws mentioned above and the BOD minutes from the first meeting mentioned above. Either the documents exist or they don’t. This isn’t a difficult thing to answer.

But, as long as you continue to pretend you don’t know that you’ve been asked to provide this documentation, I suspect the answer will continue to not come…as has been the case for over a month now.

Beth

[Roulett]

This is turning into a 3 ring circus on two different forums. There is nobody in the AHA world who is going to believe that Peggy Ingles is a master mind of evil, a slippery manipulator of numbers b/c she has documented all her rebuttals.

I have no idea where Patience stands in this dispute - so far, she's been silent. One cannot defend a cause with faulty arguments or dead silence.

I know all the parties involved and I thought if Laura and Peggy could find common ground this battle could have been avoided - well,
I was wrong - from where I stand, it's imploding. The instant the word COI comes into play - it's damn hard to shake that loose from people's thinking whether perceived or real. When COI was first mentioned on the ABH forum not ABN - I dismissed it - after all is said and done,
the COI will be what sticks in everyone's mind ----- :-(

[allanglos]

[QUOTE=ljshorses;4723828]Very well put Darlyn, right now it's all heresay and no one knows the "actual" truth. I know the program was run by Peggy for 2 years without issue so I am naturally going to wonder why now there is a problem. QUOTE]

No, Peggy did not run the program for two years. It was and is run by a BOD.

[allanglos]

OH REALLY?

Are you not Laura J. Wood of Brooksville, FL, owner of the 2009 US National Champion HA/AA SHIH Stallion SIGNAL BEY?

http://issuu.com/arabianhorseworld/docs/2009_sporthorse_nat_results view page 1, class 7 (second column towards the bottom)

That is NOT A PAYBACK CLASS! Which is just my point. If I wanted to have this program just to benefit me, it would been as that was my ONLY in-hand class, and it was only about the third time he has ever even shown in the class.

[stripes]

[QUOTE=ljshorses;4723828]Very well put Darlyn, right now it's all heresay and no one knows the "actual" truth. I know the program was run by Peggy for 2 years without issue so I am naturally going to wonder why now there is a problem. QUOTE]

No, Peggy did not run the program for two years. It was and is run by a BOD.

Show the proof of this BOD with minutes of the first meeting and adopting of BY LAWS. Its a simple request.

[allanglos]

I thought you said she resigned? So which is it, she was released, or she resigned?

WHAT BOD? The BOD was Peggy and Laura. So she voted herself off the island?



No possible way you are not following that dicsussion. I sure would be, even if it took 10 minutes to load a page, or I had to borrow someone's iphone, etc.



So it is with the MD registered non-profit?

She did resign from all admin duties. She was released from the BOD.
The BOD was not Peggy and myself. Is there some reason you refuse to accept that Peggy even sent out in a press release the Patience was a director of Payback?

I am not following that discussion, at all. You might have time to spend 30 minutes to load each page or more. I do not. That is why WE POSTED OUR EMAIL ADDRESS. So if anyone had any questions, they could easily ask us directly.

An iphone, are you kidding? They don't work in Kuwait.

The MD and FL organizations ARE THE SAME!

[EquusMagnificus]

Okay... So what happens to 2010 customers? What if I wanted to buy a breeding to support the program? Who's ligit and who's not?

What a mess. :sigh:

[Fairview Horse Center]

She did resign from all admin duties. She was released from the BOD.


Dates please.

[pegasus44]

The FL corporation has the same name as the MD corporation. It was started on Jan 3rd, a full week before I said I would be stepping down from day-to-day duties. Here is the copy of the Articles http://sunbiz.org/pdf/63751864.pdf

It is a completely separate entity. Call here and ask 850/245-6052.

The FL corporation does not have IRS non-profit status. The IRS has confirmed that the MD corporation's non-profit status can not be transferred to or shared by the FL corporation. Call them and ask: 877/829-5500.

I doubt seriously that the Secretary of State in MD would get involved if there wasn't a violation occurring here. They are busy people.

Peggy Ingles
pegasus44@verizon.net
410/823-5579

[ambar]

Okay, here's what confuses me.

Laura has set up an organization in Florida. Okay, fine, she's entitled.

The original organization, according to Peggy, has only two BOD members, herself and Laura. (I'm not interested in the press release Laura keeps bringing up; a press release is not meeting minutes or voting records.)

So... Peggy, how can you continue to run the MD organization when its BOD consists of only you and Laura, and you both need to agree before one can leave or anyone else can be added?

It's pretty clear to *me*, having read both threads, who's got a firm grip on reality, but I'm unclear on the above. (And grateful, suddenly, that none of my stallion's get have yet been shown to a qualifying level, so this is only an academic question for me.)

[pegasus44]

ambar - I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you are asking.

[ambar]

I'm asking, how can you, Peggy, continue to run the original MD organization, with just you and Laura on the BOD of that organization, if the two of you can't come to agreement on anything respecting the original organization?

You need to agree on bylaws if you're to have any, you need to agree on a third director if you're to have one, and I'm guessing neither of these is likely to happen soon (my sympathies), so how can the MD organization remain a going concern?

[Fairview Horse Center]

OK, I am not finished reviewing some things, but did Laura really say that the email for payback should go to all "directors", and that all should be able to respond? What kind of paranoid, non-professional system is this?!?! :lol: :lol:

Oh, my, that is just scary! Could anyone actually think that could work?

[allanglos]

Here is the vote from Patience. We had already noted Peggy's vote to remain on the BOD. We had also discussed the situation on the phone.

BODMonday, February 1, 2010 7:53 PM
From: "laura wood" <allanglos@yahoo.com>View contact detailsTo: "Patience Prine Carr" <Patience4444@cruzio.com>

> I would like confirmation from you, via email, that Peggy is voted out of the BOD
> I would like your vote on including Nicole on the BOD.
> Thanks.
> Laura



From: C&P CARR <patience4444@cruzio.com>
> Subject: Re: BOD
> To: "laura wood" <allanglos@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 8:10 PM

I
> tried to find the post the she did on ABN about how she was
> resigning but couldn't find it.She now says she isn't resigning
> only not being the treasurer but still on the BOD -but if you can
> find her post it basically says that she is resigning from
> everything until you can find someone else. Nicole sounds great
> and has done a wonderful job on the website-it is much quicker now!
> Patience


Re: BODMonday, February 1, 2010 8:29 PM
From: "laura wood" <allanglos@yahoo.com>View contact detailsTo: "C&P CARR" <patience4444@cruzio.com>
laura wood wrote:
Is that a "yes"? I don't want to make a mistake and assume.

Monday, February 1, 2010 8:37 PM
From: "C&P CARR" <patience4444@cruzio.com>View contact detailsTo: "laura wood" <allanglos@yahoo.com>Yes I will vote yes. Every time she sends me an email it has an attachment that wants notification that I received the email and then when i forward it on it has another attachment saying something strange that the email contains some sort of other encrodement.????

[pegasus44]

I wonder that myself. Laura has not, for some time, responded to my emails.

I have no problem finishing this year in a professional manner - I don't have to like her or her methods - but there must be communication. It takes a reasonable person to be able to reason with, but, as you can see, we don't have that here.

I have been trying and trying to get her to agree to a 5 person BOD. She doesn't want that because "no one will ever agree on anything."

A totally new corporation would have to be started in the future for sure.

[allanglos]

OK, I am not finished reviewing some things, but did Laura really say that the email for payback should go to all "directors", and that all should be able to respond? What kind of paranoid, non-professional system is this?!?! :lol: :lol:

Oh, my, that is just scary! Could anyone actually think that could work?

It works just fine. This way everyone is up to date on all activities of Payback and everyone can pick up a duty if someone else is unable to. We are all equally prepared to continue the duties to keep Payback running. Before, if Peggy got ill or something else should have happened, we would be dead in the water as no one had any visibility on the day to day activities.

[stripes]

Here is the vote from Patience. We had already noted Peggy's vote to remain on the BOD. We had also discussed the situation on the phone.

BODMonday, February 1, 2010 7:53 PM
From: "laura wood" <allanglos@yahoo.com>View contact detailsTo: "Patience Prine Carr" <Patience4444@cruzio.com>

> I would like confirmation from you, via email, that Peggy is voted out of the BOD
> I would like your vote on including Nicole on the BOD.
> Thanks.
> Laura



From: C&P CARR <patience4444@cruzio.com>
> Subject: Re: BOD
> To: "laura wood" <allanglos@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 8:10 PM

I
> tried to find the post the she did on ABN about how she was
> resigning but couldn't find it.She now says she isn't resigning
> only not being the treasurer but still on the BOD -but if you can
> find her post it basically says that she is resigning from
> everything until you can find someone else. Nicole sounds great
> and has done a wonderful job on the website-it is much quicker now!
> Patience


Re: BODMonday, February 1, 2010 8:29 PM
From: "laura wood" <allanglos@yahoo.com>View contact detailsTo: "C&P CARR" <patience4444@cruzio.com>
laura wood wrote:
Is that a "yes"? I don't want to make a mistake and assume.

Monday, February 1, 2010 8:37 PM
From: "C&P CARR" <patience4444@cruzio.com>View contact detailsTo: "laura wood" <allanglos@yahoo.com>Yes I will vote yes. Every time she sends me an email it has an attachment that wants notification that I received the email and then when i forward it on it has another attachment saying something strange that the email contains some sort of other encrodement.????

Show us where Patience was voted in as a BOD. And would you please actually answer the questions that have been directed to you with valid answers showing the proof behind them. All this skirting around the issue just muddies up the waters.

[allanglos]

I wonder that myself. Laura has not, for some time, responded to my emails.

I have no problem finishing this year in a professional manner - I don't have to like her or her methods - but there must be communication. It takes a reasonable person to be able to reason with, but, as you can see, we don't have that here.

I have been trying and trying to get her to agree to a 5 person BOD. She doesn't want that because "no one will ever agree on anything."

A totally new corporation would have to be started in the future for sure.

Peggy, you and I both KNOW that WE discussed the best way to have the BOD, and WE decided on three people and WE decided on the third being Patience, and WE then submitted for the Charter with three. Why you put only your name down on the charter as a director is a mystery to me. You knew at the time there were three and who they were. If this charter is your arguement for Patience not being on the BOD, then I am not on it either as I am not listed on the charter, which was submitted AFTER we had our Board of Directors. So, which is it, three or just you? Because according to the charter, your statements that it was just two of us on the BOD is false if this charter is your proof.

[pegasus44]

Maryland Code Title 2, Subtitle 4, Subsection 2-404 ELECTION AND TENURE OF DIRECTORS

(a) Initial directors.- Until successors are elected and qualify, the board of directors consists of the individuals named as directors in the charter.

Maryland Code Title 2, Subtitle 4, Subsection 2-409 MEETINGS OF DIRECTORS
(a) Place of meeting; remote communication.- Unless the bylaws of the corporation provide otherwise, a regular or special meeting of the board of directors may be held at any place in or out of the State or by means of remote communication.

(b) Notice of meeting.-

(1) Notice of each meeting of the board of directors shall be given as provided in the bylaws.

(2) Unless the bylaws provide otherwise, the notice:

(i) Shall be in writing or delivered by electronic transmission; and

(ii) Need not state the business to be transacted at or the purpose of any regular or special meeting of the board of directors.


And, as we all know, there are no by-laws nor was there an election.

[allanglos]

Show us where Patience was voted in as a BOD. And would you please actually answer the questions that have been directed to you with valid answers showing the proof behind them. All this skirting around the issue just muddies up the waters.

Hey, you asked for proof that Patience voted and that it wasn't just me removing Peggy. What else do you want?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Hey, you asked for proof that Patience voted and that it wasn't just me removing Peggy. What else do you want?

Proof that you had bylaws, and proof that according to them, Patience was voted in to the BOD.

[phanilah]

Still waiting for a copy of the bylaws and the first meeting minutes to show how the "3 directors" were actually chosen - per article 7 of the inc. documents.

Since you keep ignoring this request, does that mean the documents don't exist?

Beth

[Fairview Horse Center]

I am still waiting for dates

Date of the first meeting to decide on BOD
Date the bylaws were voted in
Date Patience was voted in according to the voted in bylaws

[allanglos]

[QUOTE=pegasus44;4724583]The FL corporation has the same name as the MD corporation. It was started on Jan 3rd, a full week before I said I would be stepping down from day-to-day duties. Here is the copy of the Articles http://sunbiz.org/pdf/63751864.pdf

It is a completely separate entity. Call here and ask 850/245-6052.

The FL corporation does not have IRS non-profit status. The IRS has confirmed that the MD corporation's non-profit status can not be transferred to or shared by the FL corporation. Call them and ask: 877/829-5500.

I doubt seriously that the Secretary of State in MD would get involved if there wasn't a violation occurring here. They are busy people.

Peggy Ingles
pegasus44@verizon.net

The FL and MD corporations are the same! And with the same EIN.

BTW, any 501(c)5 is treated as a non-profit by the IRS even if it has NEVER APPLIED for such status. Yep, call the IRS. Or read IRS Pub 557, page 46. Any 501(c)5 is not required to apply.

However, we are still incorporated in MD. The FL registration was only to protect us until we found a new resident agent. Which we have.

The bylaws for the FL registration were not signed until 5 days AFTER you resigned. And not filed until a month later.

And these bylaws are the same as the MD bylaws. The only changes were the addresses and the fiscal year.

As soon as the MD resident agent becomes official, the bylaws will change back to MD addresses. The fiscal year will remain.

[allanglos]

Still waiting for a copy of the bylaws and the first meeting minutes to show how the "3 directors" were actually chosen - per article 7 of the inc. documents.

Since you keep ignoring this request, does that mean the documents don't exist?

Beth

I've already answered it. The three directors were chosen BEFORE the charter was sent in, but then Peggy only put her own name on the charter as a director.

The bylaws are also the same as the ones currently posted, except for the addresses and fiscal year.

[stripes]

I've already answered it. The three directors were chosen BEFORE the charter was sent in, but then Peggy only put her own name on the charter as a director.

The bylaws are also the same as the ones currently posted, except for the addresses and fiscal year.

So, you don't have any minutes of any of this? Peggy has already stated that minutes & By Laws don't exsist. So we are asking that you present them as you say they do. If you don't have any, then none of what you are saying happened can be proven. So, it is down to just You and Peggy and neither of you can vote the other off. You need to get with Peggy and legal council and hash this out.

[allanglos]

Here ya go. This is Peggy welcoming our new director. This was BEFORE the charter was submitted.........


PaybackWednesday, December 5, 2007 7:32 AM
From: "Peggy Ingles" <pegasus44@verizon.net>View contact detailsTo: patience4444@sbcglobal.netCc: "Laura Wood" <allanglos@yahoo.com>Hi Patience,
I'm so glad you are going to be a part of this! We agree with you about spreading the money to the top...but want entry levels to be encouraged too. So we can do lower and upper, then meet in the middle as it grows. How does that sound?
I look forward to working with you on this program. Let's make a difference!
Peggy Ingles

[cajunbelle]

As a possible prospective breeder, this thread is going to put me off, IN A BIG WAY...when it comes to Stallion Auctions!
Why would anyone encourage this drama & why should it unfold here? I feel sorry for the stallion owners, who have soooo graciously donated to this program. What a shame!:no:

[phanilah]

I've already answered it. The three directors were chosen BEFORE the charter was sent in, but then Peggy only put her own name on the charter as a director.

The bylaws are also the same as the ones currently posted, except for the addresses and fiscal year.


So the magical bylaws have finally appeared.

If the bylaws for the FL entity are supposed to be exactly the same as the MD entity, except for addresses and fiscal year, then why do the bylaws state there is supposed to be a Pres, VP, Tres and Sec and by your own comments on the ABN thread - the ONLY officers appointed for the MD entity were you as President and Peggy as Secretary? What happened to the other two positions, you just decided to violate the bylaws and not appoint anyone?

I don't buy for a minute that these are the bylaws that people have been asking for - if they were, it wouldn't have taken a month to be told that. IMO, I think these were drafted for the FL entity, since the bylaws fit the structure of the FL entity much better than the MD entity....and now you're trying to pass these off as original bylaws because you didn't have anything previously to justify how things have gone.

Can you provide the date and meeting minutes for when the 3 directors were actually voted in?

Beth

[pegasus44]

An email from Laura, in part, dated 12/29/09 referring to by-laws:


"On Dec 29, 2009, at 3:14 AM, laura wood wrote:

You told me in 2008 you had most of the Bylaws done, but of course you never sent them to me. Again, I made the mistake of trusting you. No problem, we can redo them."


Can you explain this statement if we already had bylaws? I have the entire series of emails.

BTW - the bylaws you posted on your website are not dated or signed and only refer to your new corporation. As the holder of the corporate records (as secretary) I think I'd know if we had adopted bylaws.

Peggy

[stripes]

As a possible prospective breeder, this thread is going to put me off, IN A BIG WAY...when it comes to Stallion Auctions!
Why would anyone encourage this drama & why should it unfold here? I feel sorry for the stallion owners, who have soooo graciously donated to this program. What a shame!:no:

No kidding. And as someone who was looking forward to breeding 2 Payback babies this year, I'm extremely disappointed that Ms.Wood felt the need to start this awful mess. All of this was done and set into motion without any of the stallion owners' knowing. Very suspect from the beginning, especially since everyone has always dealt with Ms.Ingles. I'm still breeding my one mare to a Payback stallion as that is a done deal, I have high hopes that Peggy can get through this and move forward. It has been a great program.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Here ya go. This is Peggy welcoming our new director. This was BEFORE the charter was submitted.........


PaybackWednesday, December 5, 2007 7:32 AM
From: "Peggy Ingles" <pegasus44@verizon.net>View contact detailsTo: patience4444@sbcglobal.netCc: "Laura Wood" <allanglos@yahoo.com>Hi Patience,
I'm so glad you are going to be a part of this! We agree with you about spreading the money to the top...but want entry levels to be encouraged too. So we can do lower and upper, then meet in the middle as it grows. How does that sound?
I look forward to working with you on this program. Let's make a difference!
Peggy Ingles

Where does this say she will be on the BOD? She is being welcomed to be "a part of this", but the same could be said of anyone helping out, giving advice, breeding, or donating.

[allanglos]

So the magical bylaws have finally appeared.

If the bylaws for the FL entity are supposed to be exactly the same as the MD entity, except for addresses and fiscal year, then why do the bylaws state there is supposed to be a Pres, VP, Tres and Sec and by your own comments on the ABN thread - the ONLY officers appointed for the MD entity were you as President and Peggy as Secretary. What happened to the other two positions, you just decided to violate the bylaws and not appoint anyone?

I don't buy for a minute that these are the bylaws that people have been asking for - if they were, it wouldn't have taken a month to be told that. IMO, I think these were drafted for the FL entity, since the bylaws fit the structure of the FL entity much better than the MD entity....and now you're trying to pass these off as original bylaws because you didn't have anything previously to justify how things have gone.

Can you provide the date and meeting minutes for when the 3 directors were actually voted in?

Beth

Oh good grief. What's the point? It didn't take a month. They have been on our website for anyone to view, and you know that. I am not passing off anything. If people have been asking for them for a month, who did they ask? It wasn't anyone on the BOD.

How about asking for the minutes where Peggy was appointed Treasurer, huh? This is just ridiculous. She WAS the secretary. She is supposed to supply these records. Of course she isn't going to admit anything now.

How many times do I have to say that all three of us were on the BOD before the charter was even submitted?

Ya know, any resonable person would have to ask themselves, why.....

.... did the charter list only Peggy as a director, when she knew there were three, because that is what she wrote in the Seventh Article, and because she had already welcomed Patience to the board. She also knew I was a director. Hell, the whole program was my idea. But she didn't put my name down, either. Again, how is it that Patience is assumed to not be on the BOD and I am, when neither of us are on the Charter? There was no meeting after the charter was submitted to vote in a BOD because they already existed.

...why did Peggy put just her name on the check writing bank, but tell us otherwise?

....why was all the income deposited in the wrong bank account, and into the one with only her name on it?

....why was PayPal access refused us. Only Peggy had access, yet a multiple user account could easily have been set up.

....why was the domain put in her name instead of the organization?

...why were financial records sent to an IRS tax preparer but not sent to the BOD for review first?

...why were the financial records sent to a CPA without first going to the BOD for review and verification?

....why was a CPA selected by Peggy without BOD input, and to this day his/her identity kept a secret from the BOD?

....why was a bonding agency also selected by Peggy without BOD input, and also its identity kept a secret?

....why did she think it could possibly be OK to take $18,700 out of our account and deposit who knows where, with no BOD approval?

....why did she out of the blue self appoint herself the Treasurer? Where are the minutes for that?

...why did she "sell" stallion services to her friends without receiving payment, which is in violation of our own rules?

...why did she use Payback funds to finance advertising for her Pegasus Productions customers, and without BOD knowledge?

....why did she forge my signature on a legal document filed in MD, then claim I was out of the country when I was not?

...why did she not share the Internet access to our bank accounts, then "demand an explanation" when I did get access to our own account, erasing any doubt I had that she had just simply forgotten to share the information?

.... Why does she continue to refuse to turn over financial information after 31 Dec 08?

...why did she make stories as to why the other BOD members could not have access to the Payback email address?

Why.

[allanglos]

[QUOTE=stripes;4724838], I'm extremely disappointed that Ms.Wood felt the need to start this awful mess. QUOTE]

Are you kidding me? I didn't start any of this, and have resisted even getting involved, but you guys kept saying I was being sinister for not "going public". So, on the one hand you complain because I have not jumped into the mudslinging started by Peggy. Now I am the one who started it? Oh, this is unreal.

[allanglos]

Where does this say she will be on the BOD? She is being welcomed to be "a part of this", but the same could be said of anyone helping out, giving advice, breeding, or donating.

Because, as you know, this was at the same time as the press release naming Patience a director. If you don't believe me, ask Patience!

[phanilah]

Oh good grief. What's the point? It didn't take a month. They have been on our website for anyone to view, and you know that. I am not passing off anything. If people have been asking for them for a month, who did they ask? It wasn't anyone on the BOD.

Here we go again, you pretending that you haven't been asked by numerous people to post the bylaws. Not only are you very aware those questions were being asked on the forum (I'll post on of your great replies to that in my next post), when I raised the issue on our club list, back when this whole this started....at that point, why didn't you just simply say - the bylaws are the same ones on the website? I'm also interested in how you voted in directors before you had bylaws stating the process - since it appears that is what you did.

How about asking for the minutes where Peggy was appointed Treasurer, huh? This is just ridiculous. She WAS the secretary. She is supposed to supply these records. Of course she isn't going to admit anything now.

You still haven't answered why the MD entity only had 2 officers, when the bylaws state there should be 4 - if, in fact, the bylaws posted on the website really were for the MD entity. The rest of your response is just an attempt to distract.

Beth

[pegasus44]

Oh good grief. What's the point? It didn't take a month. They have been on our website for anyone to view, and you know that. I am not passing off anything. If people have been asking for them for a month, who did they ask? It wasn't anyone on the BOD.

How about asking for the minutes where Peggy was appointed Treasurer, huh? This is just ridiculous. She WAS the secretary. She is supposed to supply these records. Of course she isn't going to admit anything now.

How many times do I have to say that all three of us were on the BOD before the charter was even submitted?

Ya know, any resonable person would have to ask themselves, why.....

.... did the charter list only Peggy as a director, when she knew there were three, because that is what she wrote in the Seventh Article, and because she had already welcomed Patience to the board. She also knew I was a director. Hell, the whole program was my idea. But she didn't put my name down, either. Again, how is it that Patience is assumed to not be on the BOD and I am, when neither of us are on the Charter? There was no meeting after the charter was submitted to vote in a BOD because they already existed.
Um, maybe because I couldn't sign for you?

...why did Peggy put just her name on the check writing bank, but tell us otherwise?You asked me to set up the account in 2008. You never asked to be added. Til Nov 09.

....why was all the income deposited in the wrong bank account, and into the one with only her name on it?Income was deposited to both the Money Market and checking, depending on what it was for. Ad income had to go right out to pay for ads.

....why was PayPal access refused us. Only Peggy had access, yet a multiple user account could easily have been set up.Explained earlier in this thread.

....why was the domain put in her name instead of the organization?Because I PAID FOR IT and it was under my account.

...why were financial records sent to an IRS tax preparer but not sent to the BOD for review first?Tax day is May 15 - taxes went to CPA 4 months later. You knew that. If you were concerned about it, why didn't you ASK??

...why were the financial records sent to a CPA without first going to the BOD for review and verification?See above...

....why was a CPA selected by Peggy without BOD input, and to this day his/her identity kept a secret from the BOD?The CPA for financial review was to confirm everything was as it should be, due to your accusations.

....why was a bonding agency also selected by Peggy without BOD input, and also its identity kept a secret?The bonding company was thru a local State Farm agent, to protet the $$ from your erratic behavior.

....why did she think it could possibly be OK to take $18,700 out of our account and deposit who knows where, with no BOD approval?Again, it was in the Payback account, protecting from your actions. You knew where it was.

....why did she out of the blue self appoint herself the Treasurer? Where are the minutes for that?This one alwYs cracks me up....who else was doing that job??

...why did she "sell" stallion services to her friends without receiving payment, which is in violation of our own rules?One person agreed to buy a breeding and then didn't pay. Let's ask how you never paid for one you bought Laura.

...why did she use Payback funds to finance advertising for her Pegasus Productions customers, and without BOD knowledge?All co-op advertising was billed, collected and paid thru Payback of course.

....why did she forge my signature on a legal document filed in MD, then claim I was out of the country when I was not?The amendment to the Articles was necessary for our 501c5. Laura landed in Kuwait around June 13th. Amendment was filed July 9th. With your permission I signed it.

...why did she not share the Internet access to our bank accounts, then "demand an explanation" when I did get access to our own account, erasing any doubt I had that she had just simply forgotten to share the information?You always had access, since 2008.

.... Why does she continue to refuse to turn over financial information after 31 Dec 08?At the CPA's, sorry

...why did she make stories as to why the other BOD members could not have access to the Payback email address?Crappy idea to have everyone answering OR having a yahoo account as you wanted.

Why.

Why did you not pay for the breeding you purchased in 2008? Why did you not pay your co-op ad fees from 2008? That's almost $800 Laura. I told you that would not look good.

All of these items have been asked and answered privately. as well as publicly. My responses have not changed. What good will come from rehashing this here?

The facts are the facts, they do not change. None of the above matters, it is water under the bridge.

What is it you want from me or the public now? You can't expect people to not have questions when things appear sketchy.

[phanilah]

From Laura on the ABN thread (emphasis mine):

SusanRae,
You say "A lot of us have repeatedly asked you and the other supposed BOD members for information, for a month now". But at no time did anyone email us and ask us anything. Asking us on a forum is not asking us. It is venting to the wind. We, the BOD, posted early on when we became aware of this thread, the position of the BOD and our contact email address if anyone had any questions.

So, back to you being disingenuous. You know full well people have been asking YOU, you even acknowledge it above - you've just decided that asking on a forum isn't really asking...even when it happens numerous times from numerous people. Since YOU also STARTED the thread the above quote was taken from, your claim about the BOD posting "when they became aware of the thread" is even more lack of honesty about this.

If you can't be honest about that, well.........

Beth

[allanglos]

Here we go again, you pretending that you haven't been asked by numerous people to post the bylaws. Not only are you very aware those questions were being asked on the forum (I'll post on of your great replies to that in my next post), when I raised the issue on our club list, back when this whole this started....at that point, why didn't you just simply say - the bylaws are the same ones on the website? I'm also interested in how you voted in directors before you had bylaws stating the process - since it appears that is what you did.
You still haven't answered why the MD entity only had 2 officers, when the bylaws state there should be 4 - if, in fact, the bylaws posted on the website really were for the MD entity. The rest of your response is just an attempt to distract.
Beth


I am not pretending anything. I have NOT read that forum. Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that? My last post there is the last time I have been there, period! As it is, it is 2:50 am, i've been up 22 hours, and I have to go to work in 3 hours, on NO sleep, just so I can answer these attacks, when you refuse to open your eyes and realize the BOD acted in the best interest of Payback.

Again, it was both Peggy and I that selected our BOD. It was not something I did on my own in a vacuum. WE selected the BOD and then WE drafted the bylaws.

We did not have people wanting the other officer positions, and you do not combine treasurer and secretary due to your favorite term, COI.

[allanglos]

From Laura on the ABN thread (emphasis mine):



So, back to you being disingenuous. You know full well people have been asking YOU, you even acknowledge it above - you've just decided that asking on a forum isn't really asking...even when it happens numerous times from numerous people. Since YOU also STARTED the thread the above quote was taken from, your claim about the BOD posting "when they became aware of the thread" is even more lack of honesty about this.

If you can't be honest about that, well.........

Beth


Obviously, when we became aware of the tone of the thread. Do I have to describe the obvious too? I do not have any what people are asking for on that thread as I HAVE NOT READ IT!

Which is irrelevant, as I am here. And if you had questions, why didn't you email us?

[gortmore]

Can I suggest that you two take this private. While you both have issues airing them publicly is not in the best interest of the Payback program which should be paramount.

[phanilah]

I am not pretending anything. I have NOT read that forum. Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that? My last post there is the last time I have been there, period! As it is, it is 2:50 am, i've been up 22 hours, and I have to go to work in 3 hours, on NO sleep, just so I can answer these attacks, when you refuse to open your eyes and realize the BOD acted in the best interest of Payback.

Laura, come on now...quit acting like these questions came up after your last visit. You know full well they started being asked the day after YOU started the thread and you managed to post over a dozen messages on that thread during the time those questions were being asked.

Again, it was both Peggy and I that selected our BOD. It was not something I did on my own in a vacuum. WE selected the BOD and then WE drafted the bylaws.

We did not have people wanting the other officer positions, and you do not combine treasurer and secretary due to your favorite term, COI.

According to your bylaws, not only were you to have 4 officers, any two or more of those offices could be held by the same person. The bylaws say "shall" have, not "may" have. Let's face it, being VP isn't terribly difficult and why on earth wouldn't you have a treasurer - given money is a big part of this - when a treasurer is stipulated in the supposed bylaws? This is an interesting time for you to start acknowleding COI. FWIW, I haven't yet mentioned COI, so it isn't my favorite term. But, I still have a hard time believing the bylaws you are referencing were really for the MD entity.

Beth

[shawneeAcres]

Holy Smokes! Talk about airing your dirty laundry in public! I was ABOUT to buy a payback stallion service for my Oldenburg mare, wanted to try getting into the 1/2 arab sporthorse stuff, but now.....

[phanilah]

Wow, the level of denial here is remarkable. It is becoming very clear why things have fallen apart and I can't blame Peggy in the least for how she tried to handle things - if this is a sample what Laura was like to try to deal with.

It is a real shame this wasn't handled better..I hope the program can get this worked out.

This is just becoming a pointless circle.

Beth

[Kyzteke]

I'm really surprised that this "program" doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the Arab Registry, since all the classes where the monies will be awarded are at Arab sancitioned shows.

Since when do ANY private individuals start & run payback programs like this?

Wouldn't it be easier just to turn the whole shebang over to the Registry? They already have a BOD.

[stripes]

I'm really surprised that this "program" doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the Arab Registry, since all the classes where the monies will be awarded are at Arab sancitioned shows.

Since when do ANY private individuals start & run payback programs like this?

Wouldn't it be easier just to turn the whole shebang over to the Registry? They already have a BOD.

:lol: I'm sorry, I know you're not a Arabian person, or you would have never asked this question. The Arabian Registry is dealing with their own money problems - one would be that the Registry "borrowed" $750,000 from our Sweepstakes program to run the registry and they got caught this past Aug. It's really hard to trust AHA.

Anyway, this was to be for prize money for just SHN. Great idea and it was going gang busters until Laura started this whole mess.

[ambar]

Since when do ANY private individuals start & run payback programs like this?


When it's easier to do it yourself than to persuade your own registry to do it, that's when. (In addition to what Tamara said. :D)

In the pecking order of the AHA world, sport horses are considerably below the "main ring" (breed competition) horses, and maybe a nose above endurance horses. The beauty of the Payback setup was that it was by sport horse breeder/exhibitors and for sport horse breeder/exhibitors.

[allanglos]

Why did you not pay for the breeding you purchased in 2008? Why did you not pay your co-op ad fees from 2008?That's almost $800 Laura.

You know very well that I did pay for both! If it wasn't for my money, we would not have been able to start up Payback.


Ya know, any resonable person would have to ask themselves, why.....

.... did the charter list only Peggy as a director, when she knew there were three, because that is what she wrote in the Seventh Article, and because she had already welcomed Patience to the board. She also knew I was a director. Hell, the whole program was my idea. But she didn't put my name down, either. Again, how is it that Patience is assumed to not be on the BOD and I am, when neither of us are on the Charter? There was no meeting after the charter was submitted to vote in a BOD because they already existed.
Um, maybe because I couldn't sign for you?

It doesn't ask for a signature. And so by your own admission, you didn't list Patience and I because you thought we had to sign, not because we weren't on the BOD.

...why did Peggy put just her name on the check writing bank, but tell us otherwise?You asked me to set up the account in 2008. You never asked to be added. Til Nov 09.

I most certainly did. You said I was on it. Even when I said I would write the checks in Sept '08, you insisted that you wanted to. You conveniently omitted the fact that I wasn't even authorized to write the checks.

....why was all the income deposited in the wrong bank account, and into the one with only her name on it?Income was deposited to both the Money Market and checking, depending on what it was for. Ad income had to go right out to pay for ads.

It was not even possible for the PayPal income to go into our main joint account. They did not have that account on record. There were only a few coop ads approved by the BOD. The SHN program and the USN program, plus a one time MAH ad. That certainly does not account for the steady stream of deposits into an account that does not earn Interest income and allows for free useage, and only by you.

....why was PayPal access refused us. Only Peggy had access, yet a multiple user account could easily have been set up.Explained earlier in this thread.

Not even close. A multiple users account gives unique user log-on access. They put in their "user ID" in the email section of the log-on, whereas the primary person uses their email address. There is NO sharing of information or revealing of SSNs. We told you that.

....why was the domain put in her name instead of the organization?Because I PAID FOR IT and it was under my account.

No you did not pay for it. It was paid by Payback and the tax return shows that. There was no reason to have it under your name, just like it isn't now.

...why were financial records sent to an IRS tax preparer but not sent to the BOD for review first?Tax day is May 15 - taxes went to CPA 4 months later. You knew that. If you were concerned about it, why didn't you ASK??

I have been asking for TWO YEARS for the accounting. I had no way to access it. No email access, no PayPal access, no bank access. I had trusted you, but then you hid the accounting from us and instead sent directly to outside agencies, and continue to hide it from us to this day.

...why were the financial records sent to a CPA without first going to the BOD for review and verification?See above...

It doesn't matter when you send to a CPA, why are you hiding them from us?

....why was a CPA selected by Peggy without BOD input, and to this day his/her identity kept a secret from the BOD?The CPA for financial review was to confirm everything was as it should be, due to your accusations.

You mean, you want them to do the records according to how YOU want them. You are still hiding the identity of this CPA and hiding the records this CPA is using. We have a CPA, and she is approved by the BOD and she is not a secret. We don't have anything to hide.

....why was a bonding agency also selected by Peggy without BOD input, and also its identity kept a secret?The bonding company was thru a local State Farm agent, to protet the $$ from your erratic behavior.

Again, why are you hiding the identity of the bonding agency? The behavior you claim to be erratic is my getting access to my own organization's accounts. I guess if you have something to hide, yes, that would make you worried about my behavior.

....why did she think it could possibly be OK to take $18,700 out of our account and deposit who knows where, with no BOD approval?Again, it was in the Payback account, protecting from your actions. You knew where it was.

You mean protected from my learning anything you didn't want me to know. It was not in the Payback account. You had removed it, which cost us lost Interest, and there was no reason to do so. You have yet to return it all.

....why did she out of the blue self appoint herself the Treasurer? Where are the minutes for that?This one alwYs cracks me up....who else was doing that job??

Doing some Treasurer duties does NOT make you the Treasurer, especially when these duties you are performing are because of your refusal to let anyone else have access to them.

...why did she "sell" stallion services to her friends without receiving payment, which is in violation of our own rules?One person agreed to buy a breeding and then didn't pay. Let's ask how you never paid for one you bought Laura.

It was not ONE person, and even if it was, it is still not acceptable! Especially when we had NO IDEA you had done this. And again, for the millionth time, you know full well I did pay for that breeding. How else did this Payback program get launched, but with MY MONEY.

...why did she use Payback funds to finance advertising for her Pegasus Productions customers, and without BOD knowledge?All co-op advertising was billed, collected and paid thru Payback of course.

I am not referring to coop advertising.

....why did she forge my signature on a legal document filed in MD, then claim I was out of the country when I was not?The amendment to the Articles was necessary for our 501c5. Laura landed in Kuwait around June 13th. Amendment was filed July 9th. With your permission I signed it.

I didn't even KNOW you forged my signature until last month. I most certainly did not authorize it.

...why did she not share the Internet access to our bank accounts, then "demand an explanation" when I did get access to our own account, erasing any doubt I had that she had just simply forgotten to share the information?You always had access, since 2008.

If I had access, then why did I not have access? If I had access, why did you demand an explanation when I did get access?

.... Why does she continue to refuse to turn over financial information after 31 Dec 08?At the CPA's, sorry

How convenient. You sent our only copy of our records out to a firm and didn't keep one, and to a firm with an unknown identity?

...why did she make stories as to why the other BOD members could not have access to the Payback email address?Crappy idea to have everyone answering OR having a yahoo account as you wanted.

So, you chose to instead make up stories as to why we could not get access? You decided to make the decision on your own as to what is a good idea and what isn't, without discussion? It was just better to lie to us? And if you remember, I had been asking for over two years for a way to open up the access to the email. I even asked you for YOUR IDEAS and got none. I threw out the yahoo idea just to stimulate thought and ideas, but wanted YOUR INPUT and got none. Now I know it's because you just plain didn't want to share. For what its worth, my job here thrives on group accounts, as does my job at home.

Why.

[pegasus44]

All of these items have been asked and answered privately, SEVERAL TIMES, as well as publicly. My responses have not changed. What good will come from rehashing this here?

The facts are the facts, they do not change. None of the above matters, it is water under the bridge.

What is it you want from me or the public now? You can't expect people to not have questions when things appear sketchy.

[stripes]

Interesting that you are still trying to distract vs answering the questions.

Hasn't Peggy answered all those questions? In the thread you started on ABN? Why bring it here.

I'm thinking the only way this is going to move forward is if a "real" BOD with no COI is in place and By Laws are followed. Then complete transparency so that this will never happen again.

[allanglos]

Can I suggest that you two take this private. While you both have issues airing them publicly is not in the best interest of the Payback program which should be paramount.

I completely agree, which is why I had not posted on any forums before.

I will now stop posting.

If anyone wants to reach me, go to info@shnpayback.org

[phanilah]

I completely agree, which is why I had not posted on any forums before.

I will now stop posting.

If anyone wants to reach me, go to info@shnpayback.org

There must be an alter ego involved here, but you certainly WERE posting on the ABN forum about this and while you couldn't find time to answer the basic questions being asked about bylaws and BOD minutes, you had no problem launching a lot of accusations against Peggy and answering the questions you felt like.

This is what I find so frustrating, you aren't even willing to acknowledge your own behavior.

On that note, don't worry folks, I'm done. I got the information I needed from Laura and it has done nothing to change my mind about this whole thing.

Beth

[Daventry]

Can I suggest that you two take this private. While you both have issues airing them publicly is not in the best interest of the Payback program which should be paramount.

:yes::yes::yes:

[spacely]

I will now stop posting.


Too bad. I was about to break out the popcorn & chocolate. :rolleyes:

[Switzerland]

I have been following this thread and feel a need to make a comment on this unfortunate situation. I am a stallion owner, currently not associated with this program. I found this thread and the other thread on ABN when I was researching whether to enter my stallion in this program. I have decided NOT to enroll him at this point, which is a shame as it looked like it was a good program. I have read both threads in their entirety. I am posting with an alter for the obvious reason – I do not wish my name or my stallion’s name involved in this “mess”. I know none of the parties involved and I have never personally spoken to any of the parties involved.

I DO NOT believe that either party, Ms Woods or Ms Ingles, originally intentionally did anything purposely inappropriate. I DO believe that both parties made mistakes due to their naivety and being novices at setting up corporations and programs. As part of the mistakes made, I DO NOT believe that the correct documents were correctly drawn up. I DO NOT believe that the original Bylaws, Minutes, or BOD appointment exist. It appears that the only “legal” BOD of this corporation is Ms Ingles without the existence of the correctly drawn up documentation. (BTW Emails and press releases are not the correct or appropriate legal documents). I do not think that the lack of this documentation was done maliciously or deviously.

The SHNpayback program is in serious trouble !!! This problem is not going to go away on its own !! And regardless who “wins” the “battle” the program loses !! Ms Woods needs to stop being so stubborn and understand that THIS program is on the verge of doom. I believe that if the current course continues, a SECOND (I guess really third if you count the FL corporation) will develop (and most likely will be managed by Ms Ingles) and will be in competition with the original program. Based on the support I have seen for Ms Ingles here and on the other thread, it WILL BE the original program who WILL BE LOSER in this competition.

This is a beginning of what I see should happen for the original program to go forth and rebuild trust:

1)Public admission by both parties that mistakes have been made in the past and both parties are willing, for the good of the program, to work together to fix the mistakes. No public details need to be made by either party on what the “mistakes” are/were (keep this part private) We really don’t need to know – just FIX the problem.

2)BOD developed with 5 members. A 3 BOD member system DOES NOT work in a program like this (as evidenced by this mess). BOD should consist of at least one BOD member voted on by the MARE OWNERS and one BOD member voted on by the STALLION OWNERS and three other individuals.

3)An administrator (ie. Secretary) appointed who will perform the daily business. This person should not have to check with the BOD with every little thing that they do but should have a job description so that they know their responsibility Whatever falls outside this responsibility needs to be addressed with the BOD. It is a little ridiculous to expect that every little detail needs to be “run through” the BOD. This person NEEDS to be in the US – I don’t think someone in Kuwait can appropriately run the day-to-day business.

4)A treasurer appointed (different person than the Secretary) to have a “check and balance” system in place.

Just my 2 cents on how to start to "fix" the program.

[Grataan]

That is NOT A PAYBACK CLASS! Which is just my point. If I wanted to have this program just to benefit me, it would been as that was my ONLY in-hand class, and it was only about the third time he has ever even shown in the class.
You said you didn't show in in-hand classes. Not that you didn't show in PAYBACK classes. There is a HUGE difference.

[pegasus44]

Great plan! Simple solution for all.

I have suggested arbitration/mediation way before now. It fell on deaf ears.

[Roulett]

Great plan! Simple solution for all.

I have suggested arbitration/moderation way before now. It fell on deaf ears.

Peggy -----------

In essence, arbitration involves a 3rd party who decides what
the solution will be - it's binding........ Laura would never agree to allow a
3rd party to make a judgement call.

Mediation involves a 3rd party as a facilitator who helps both parites find a
satisfactory resolution to their dispute - but again, both parties must be
willing to mediate and so far - that doesn't look like a possibility.

I think it's time to take this back to ABN where it started -- TTYL :-)

[magicteetango]

So sad. I really loved the idea of the SHN Payback, and I loved the discounted stud fees! It had seemed like an excellent program, but with this much drama, I doubt anyone would want to be involved with it. Talk about negative publicity!

I know one of the nominating stud owners, and I'm going to have to ensure I direct her to this thread so she can be educated about future nominations.

[CBJ]

I have been following this thread and feel a need to make a comment on this unfortunate situation. I am a stallion owner, currently not associated with this program. I found this thread and the other thread on ABN when I was researching whether to enter my stallion in this program. I have decided NOT to enroll him at this point, which is a shame as it looked like it was a good program. I have read both threads in their entirety. I am posting with an alter for the obvious reason – I do not wish my name or my stallion’s name involved in this “mess”. I know none of the parties involved and I have never personally spoken to any of the parties involved.

I DO NOT believe that either party, Ms Woods or Ms Ingles, originally intentionally did anything purposely inappropriate. I DO believe that both parties made mistakes due to their naivety and being novices at setting up corporations and programs. As part of the mistakes made, I DO NOT believe that the correct documents were correctly drawn up. I DO NOT believe that the original Bylaws, Minutes, or BOD appointment exist. It appears that the only “legal” BOD of this corporation is Ms Ingles without the existence of the correctly drawn up documentation. (BTW Emails and press releases are not the correct or appropriate legal documents). I do not think that the lack of this documentation was done maliciously or deviously.

The SHNpayback program is in serious trouble !!! This problem is not going to go away on its own !! And regardless who “wins” the “battle” the program loses !! Ms Woods needs to stop being so stubborn and understand that THIS program is on the verge of doom. I believe that if the current course continues, a SECOND (I guess really third if you count the FL corporation) will develop (and most likely will be managed by Ms Ingles) and will be in competition with the original program. Based on the support I have seen for Ms Ingles here and on the other thread, it WILL BE the original program who WILL BE LOSER in this competition.

This is a beginning of what I see should happen for the original program to go forth and rebuild trust:

1)Public admission by both parties that mistakes have been made in the past and both parties are willing, for the good of the program, to work together to fix the mistakes. No public details need to be made by either party on what the “mistakes” are/were (keep this part private) We really don’t need to know – just FIX the problem.

2)BOD developed with 5 members. A 3 BOD member system DOES NOT work in a program like this (as evidenced by this mess). BOD should consist of at least one BOD member voted on by the MARE OWNERS and one BOD member voted on by the STALLION OWNERS and three other individuals.

3)An administrator (ie. Secretary) appointed who will perform the daily business. This person should not have to check with the BOD with every little thing that they do but should have a job description so that they know their responsibility Whatever falls outside this responsibility needs to be addressed with the BOD. It is a little ridiculous to expect that every little detail needs to be “run through” the BOD. This person NEEDS to be in the US – I don’t think someone in Kuwait can appropriately run the day-to-day business.

4)A treasurer appointed (different person than the Secretary) to have a “check and balance” system in place.

Just my 2 cents on how to start to "fix" the program.


WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN OH WISE ONE???:D

[stripes]

Its been 2 years since the takeover of this program and I'm sorry to say that it is worse than ever =(

No Payouts happened for 2011 SHN, people are now asking where's the money? THis really sucks!!!! I know there are stallion owners that know nothing of what is going on because they are not Arabian breeders, but have their stallion enrolled with this program. Just thought everyone should know the whole story.

http://forums.arabianbreeders.net/index.php?/topic/54079-2011-shn-paybacks/

http://forums.arabianbreeders.net/index.php?/topic/50845-shn-payback-still-active/

[Fairview Horse Center]

Back in the beginning of this - several years ago, I had communicated to Laura that I no longer wanted my stallion to be part of this, and he has never been taken off the roster. :no:

[stripes]

Seriously? WOW!

This was an awesome program, back in 2009 we had $50,000 in prize money and everything was looking up. Now, who knows whats going on. Its sad when such a great idea gets ruined by incompetence.

[stripes]

Well it has now been 5 months since SHN and the winners still have not heard from this program and still have no prize money. More importantly the winners have contacted this program and have not been responded to.

If you are a stallion owner who has donated a breeding, Thank You!, but I would now be asking what the heck is going on! You didn't get the money for the breeding and the program that promises to Payout everything has not done so.

[dowedoit]

And SHN Payback will not respond to questions - particularly about what happened to the money and/or when will thosewho won money receive their checks. They simply ignore any and all questions. When I posted the question about when the recipients could expect to receive their checks on the SHN Payback facebook page they deleted ALL of my prior posts as well as my ability to post on the Payback facebook page. Clearly they (SHN Payback BOD) do not want to have to answer those tough questions - WHERE'S THE MONEY and WHEN CAN THE WINNERS EXPECT THEIR CHECKS?

[showjumpers66]

This happened to us, too. In 2010, I had contacted them about removing Apiro and it never happened. Then someone purchased a breeding for 2012 from them for Apiro. Of course, I was shocked as he wasn't supposed to be listed but when I contacted them, I was told that once a stallion is listed with them, then they are forever listed with them and the donation is not for just the one year but for every year. I am not okay with this. I was able to obtain a refund for the mare owner. They have some good ideas, but they need to get everything ironed out and earn the trust back.

Well, I have to say that I am appauled that all three of our stallions have been posted on the shnpayback.org AND the sporthorsepayback.com!!!! Neither website asked for a contract from us, one of the websites not even asking for permission to use our stallions. What if a stud fee had been purchased off of both websites? :no: We have asked that our stallions be removed from both "programs". I'm sorry, but what an embarassing mess. Daventry Farms is definitely no longer in support of any of it.

[misita]

Please remove Bravo from the SHN payback auction. I have not read the whole thread but read enough to know we're not participating any further. I also sent an e-mail to info@shnpayback.org . I hope that's the right address?

When the program gets back on track I will be happy to donate Bravo in the future.

Thank You.

[Daventry]

Of course, I was shocked as he wasn't supposed to be listed but when I contacted them, I was told that once a stallion is listed with them, then they are forever listed with them and the donation is not for just the one year but for every year.

Well that's a crock of...you know what! There isn't a Stallion Owner on the planet that's going to take orders from someone else in regards to how their stallion will be managed.

As soon as Peggy resigned from the program and she mentioned some "funny dealings" happening, we pulled our boys out...and I see now it was for good reason. When our stallions were not removed from the website, I threatened legal action and they were taken down immediately.

[TexasRose]

WOW... I haven't read each post here but this is unbelievable. :eek:

I noticed that OP posted (on Page 1) a link to another forum. 62 pages later on that forum, scroll down to post 614:

http://forums.arabianbreeders.net/topic/33878-shn-payback-has-a-new-website/page__st__610

:no:

[Fairview Horse Center]

After posting here about my stallion not being taken down in 2010?, someone from SHN emailed me and he has now been removed from their roster.

Luckily, before bidding, the mares owners did contact me, so I was able to tell the interested parties that he was no longer part of it.

[stripes]

This happened to us, too. In 2010, I had contacted them about removing Apiro and it never happened. Then someone purchased a breeding for 2012 from them for Apiro. Of course, I was shocked as he wasn't supposed to be listed but when I contacted them, I was told that once a stallion is listed with them, then they are forever listed with them and the donation is not for just the one year but for every year. I am not okay with this. I was able to obtain a refund for the mare owner. They have some good ideas, but they need to get everything ironed out and earn the trust back.

I'm so sorry, I know I have nothing to do with how this program is run, but I'm an Arabian person and I hate to see this program give our Arabian sport horses a black eye in the sport community. I also Thank You and all the other non Arabian stallion owners for giving this program a shot. I for one really appreciate it. It was a great program for 2 years, now I have no idea how this will end up. As of now a couple of SHN 2011 winners have received a check. Many others have not heard a word from this group and now people are wondering "Where's the money?" And the speculation that surrounds this question is not good. The last anyone heard we all have to wait until after Scottsdale to talk to anyone at Payback. I guess showing their horses is more important than sending out prize money and talking to stallion owners. :no:

[stripes]

Well that's a crock of...you know what! There isn't a Stallion Owner on the planet that's going to take orders from someone else in regards to how their stallion will be managed.

As soon as Peggy resigned from the program and she mentioned some "funny dealings" happening, we pulled our boys out...and I see now it was for good reason. When our stallions were not removed from the website, I threatened legal action and they were taken down immediately.

Where's the "Like" button?

[stripes]

Please remove Bravo from the SHN payback auction. I have not read the whole thread but read enough to know we're not participating any further. I also sent an e-mail to info@shnpayback.org . I hope that's the right address?

When the program gets back on track I will be happy to donate Bravo in the future.

Thank You.

That is the correct email, but they have announced that their email is having issues. This is the reason they stated for not responding to people. I would also post this on their Facebook page. I have no doubt that it will be deleted, but it will also be seen by them.

[Fairview Horse Center]

That is the correct email, but they have announced that their email is having issues. This is the reason they stated for not responding to people.

They are obviously monitoring this thread, since they contacted me because of my post here. :winkgrin:

[not again]

I certainly don't want to be part of anything like this and have some good contacts in the IRS (not the ISR, lol!!) that I can forward this thread to......maybe that will be a reason for them to get their house in order.

[stripes]

Please remove Bravo from the SHN payback auction. I have not read the whole thread but read enough to know we're not participating any further. I also sent an e-mail to info@shnpayback.org . I hope that's the right address?

When the program gets back on track I will be happy to donate Bravo in the future.

Thank You.

Just wondering if you've had a response to your email? They've been on their facebook page, so I know the excuse of everyone being out of town is bogus. Plus, with smart phones, wi fi and all those other handy little devices it is posible to be on the internet just about anywhere ;)

[kathy s.]

It's a shame that such a good program is heading toward demise. Peggy did a great job with Payback but since the change in leadership, the question of it's financial health has been a recurring one. And with no answers forthcoming, owners that have their stallions enrolled should take note.

What a damn shame.

[dowedoit]

And no response as to whether the 2012 sales funds are being used to pay the winners from 2011. Nobody on the BOD will respond regarding the money. Beginning to smell as though it isn't there to be paid out. Every excuse imagineable has been dished out as to why the winnings have not been paid out yet. Now they're stalling and can't (won't) respond to any requests until after Scottsdale. I'm pretty sure that not all of the directors are showing at Scottsdale. And even if they are, that does not abrogate their fiduciary duties to the organization - which means paying the money out as promised, in a reasonable time frame. It sounds like an investigation is in order... Perhaps not again's friend can get that started!