Yearling's toes are curling. 03/06: I LOF MY NEW FARRIER! W/ NEW PICS

[pwynnnorman]

New pics at end of thread.

My yearling stayed with someone else for a while and I think got poor farrier care. When he came home, you could see the deep gouges in his toes where he was rasped without the person bothering to smooth the wall. Also, there was a "bulb" of hoof wall where the length was shortened but the wal itself wasn't brought in line with where the toe had been removed. You know what I mean?

So I had my new farrier, who I'm not sure I'm going to keep, do his next trim--but he didn't remove the curling toe that seems to have resulted from that shoddy job done when the baby was away from home. And in the meantime, this baby used to be a very nice mover--he isn't any more. It could be a growth stage, but what if it's the way his toes are?

Any suggestions or advice? How to get rid of his slipper toes? (BTW, he has never, ever been overdue for trimming. I ALWAYS make sure my babies are done on time.)

[deltawave]

The best farrier you can find, pronto. And be prepared for the youngster to need much more frequent trimming than the normal interval for a while. Might try to find out what he was eating as well--hopefully not a lot of grain.

[matryoshka]

Agree with Deltawave. If the farrier left the toe for a reason, he should have explained it to you. If he didn't see the problem, perhaps he is the wrong person for the job. I'd be concerned about the curling. Might be a good idea to call the vet, as well.

[Patty Stiller]

Pictures would help a lot. In general though most neglected, long curled up feet have long HEELS that must also be trimmed.
Untrimmed heels get severely run under the foot, and whole hoof curls up as everything on the bottom run forward. Then the pony can no longer stand or move comfortable on its feet because they are like a rocking chair on the bottom instead of flat. The trim needs to address the heels first,to create a flat surface in the back part of the foot for the pony to stand on. The flare on the front hoof wall should be dressed, and it may look very rough for a while if the curl was severe. Once the flare then the new hoof wall can begin to grow in smoother and better attached.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;4715668]
So I had my new farrier, who I'm not sure I'm going to keep, do his next trim--but he didn't remove the curling toe that seems to have resulted from that shoddy job done when the baby was away from home. And in the meantime, this baby used to be a very nice mover--he isn't any more. It could be a growth stage, but what if it's the way his toes are?



if a farrier can, he will....

if he can't, he won't...

find a another farrier pronto and get that mess off that babies feet

Tamara in TN

[Sugarbrook]

PWynn: I have a great farrier who does all of my pony foals. I would be happy to share him with you. Email me if you want his name and phone no. He's not far away from you, and is not that expensive. This problem needs to be corrected!! But, you already know that. :yes:

[pwynnnorman]

Thank you, Sugarbrook! I will contact you asap. I am getting desparate for a really good farrier. I feel like there's something wrong with ME sometimes, y'know? Farriers and riders--I just can't seem to find much a happiness with either and wonder if I'm just too "picky" or something...

Patty, I will go out and get some pictures, too. I DO tend to overfeed, but this fellow isn't fat (in fact, he's scheduled for a panacur powerpack treatment, alas). Having recently learned (online) that thrush can be caused by oversensitivity to starch in the diet (I switched two beasties to Wellness Perform Safe to deal with it), I'm in a very educate-me frame of mind!

[enjoytheride]

Sometimes a farrier will take off small parts of the hoof every 3 weeks on a horse with slipper or paddle feet to avoid putting strain on the rest of the leg by creating drastic changes in angles. They might also suggest limiting turnout to soft ground in a small area to avoid straining the leg muscles and tearing off chunks of foot. Did your farrier mention this?

[LMH]

I DO tend to overfeed,

I don't mean to be snotty--but why?

I mean why not just not overfeed?

[matryoshka]

pynnnorman, it isn't always about how much you feed, but what you feed. It is important to keep the non-structured carbohydrates low even in young horses. Fat horses are not necessarily healthy horses.

I had to deal with very nasty founder in a pony that was trimmed regularly because the farrier was not trimming him appropriately. It was pretty bad by the time an experienced farrier was called to fix it, and she recommended me once the first trim had been accomplished. They still looked awful, because it took a while to grow the deformed hoof out.

As you've found out, not every farrier or trimmer is equally skilled. It is wonderful that you are willing to learn what is needed for your horses, because a well educated owner is the best protection for any horse. I'm interested to see the pics and to see what Patty has to say about them. If you check out her other posts here on COTH, you will get a good idea of what she brings to us as far as experience and knowledge are concerned. She's worth listening to.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;4715723] Farriers and riders--I just can't seem to find much a happiness with either and wonder if I'm just too "picky" or something...

I am going to get a Partbred/Homebred back this summer as there is no one to "start" her where she is...

the owner said "I used to know a dozen people to send a baby to,now there is no one"

Tamara in TN

[egontoast]

Agree with whomever said get the best farrier you can get.

The trouble with mistakes on the babies is that it does not just affect the feet it can affect long term the ligaments and tendons as well.

get an expert.

[pwynnnorman]

This is just one foot:

http://family.webshots.com/photo/2817095360066718914UzOvFt
http://family.webshots.com/photo/2597826220066718914dfsVwT

[pwynnnorman]

I don't mean to be snotty--but why?

I mean why not just not overfeed?

Because I'm an idiot and we tend to remake our beasites in our own image?

[Frizzle]

You can see the upper part of growth is at the proper angle -- now, the horse needs to be allowed to grow that angle all the way down the hoof capsule. Obviously, you can't just hack off everything that's at a funky angle. It's going to take a while for that horrible trim to grow out.

[LMH]

Because I'm an idiot and we tend to remake our beasites in our own image?


Fair enough!:lol:

[LMH]

You can see the upper part of growth is at the proper angle -- now, the horse needs to be allowed to grow that angle all the way down the hoof capsule. Obviously, you can't just hack off everything that's at a funky angle. It's going to take a while for that horrible trim to grow out.

How can you tell from these photos?

Young horses can go upright in a heart beat-on one or both feet.

My filly did this on her LF-had I left it to grow in the new angle, she would be a mess.

I had to do QUITE the opposite.

So with this in my head, I am wondering how you would know this yearling's situation is not the same?

The lateral shots are not taken at ground level, no solar shots...distortion from photos is always an issue on the best taken photographs.

[chemteach]

Are you sure he isn't trying to club in that foot?

[BuddyRoo]

Due to the perspective of the photos, it's really hard to say much with confidence..

That said, it looks like there was an angle change a few months ago and someone was likely trying to address some issues, but there's still a forward flare and that is what gives the hoof that dished look.

In all honesty, I think a good trimmer/farrier will look at this and think "Not the worst i've ever seen by a LOOOONNNNNGGGGG shot"...but it certainly would be good to tackle this frequently and get things going correctly.

Again, the photos aren't really from the proper perspective so there can be some distortion...but if I had the horse in front of me, I'd expect, based on these photos to see an under run heel, high heel, long toe. I would choose one thing to focus on for now and that would likely be the toe because it looks like *maybe* the overall angle IS in line w/ the horse (but you can't know that for sure w/o a body shot where you can observe the shoulder and such.)

If you like your farrier, just ask questions. And do some independent research of your own.

I can't speak to this horse, but I did trim a horse yesterday who is flared forward an awful lot. I tried to bring the breakover back as much as I could, but I didn't want to compromise any hoof wall so from the outside, it's not "pretty"....but I was going for functional. I'd probably be mortified if pics were posted because without knowing the history or knowing what it all looked like when I showed up, you just don't know the whole story.

As such, certainly don't want to criticize your farrier.

[Patty Stiller]

Sole views and/or straight on side views taken with the camera AT ground level would better tell if the heels are getting trimmed enough. But gosh, from the description I expected WAY worse. I thought the OP meant the hooves had been in looking like elf feet with toes curled up totally off the ground.These don't look too bad,nothing continued correct trimming won't fix. I wouldn't worry too much about these at the moment as the top portion is growing in steeper than the bottom end of the toes and it is common and normal for some ponies and yearling's to be a little steeper than other horses anyway. But do be sure that those heels are not getting run forward.

[BuddyRoo]

FWIW, I did too...to me that looks like dishing due to angle changes and flare....but when I read the OP I was expecting something like oh...this:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/syoung78/20090818%20Flowers%20and%20WIllys%20feet/20090818FlowersandWillysfeet011.jpg

[Cherry]

posted by Patty Stiller--
But gosh, from the description I expected WAY worse.So did I....

Just looking at the pic you posted pwynn it looks as though the heels are underrun and can be easily corrected, that's why the toes are growing like they are.

Good luck finding a decent farrier--they're a vanishing breed.... :sigh: That's why so many of us have taken to trimming our own horses/ponies.... :(

[pwynnnorman]

The other foot is even better than this one, BUT my farrier just did him last week. Had I taken pictures when he first came home, which is, I guess, the image that is still in my head, you'd have seen far worse...

But nowhere near as bad as the other picture someone posted!

Well, I appreciate all the information. I can see how it could take time to get it back in line with the way the good wall that's growing down. And a private emailer reminded me that it is the white foot (the other foot is black), too.

And I learned about the proper angle to take the picture, too!

[matryoshka]

On a foot like this I might not remove all the excess toe in the front. I'll make sure the hoof begins breakover at the right time, though, so I might rocker it or provide a roll. Everything gets explained to the owner--so much better that way.

Perhaps you should call the farrier and ask some questions about what he did and what his plans are for your horse. That may help you to decide whether to have him back out again.

The pics didn't look as bad as I expected, either.

[LLDM]

Are you sure he isn't trying to club in that foot?

This. It is the simple version of Aquired Flexural Deformity of the Fetlock Joint. It is fairly common in WB foals going through big growth spurts. The pastern/hoof axis is broken forward. Probably because he has some contraction in the tendons. Here's an exerpt from an article in The Horse.
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=744

* Acquired Flexural Deformity of the Fetlock Joint--Horses afflicted with this condition are usually in the 10- to 18-month age group. This deformity results in an upright conformation of the front legs. In severe cases, the horse will knuckle over at the fetlock joint.
"This deformity," says Trotter, "is thought to be related to rapid bone growth originating at the growth plate of the distal radius, and restriction to passive elongation of the superficial digital flexor tendon by the proximal (radial or superior) check ligament. However, involvement of the deep digital flexor tendon can also occasionally result in this type of deformity. Palpation of both flexor tendons should again be completed with the limb in both weight-bearing and non-weight-bearing positions to help determine which individual tendon, or whether both tendons, are involved."
Again, treatment begins with establishing an appropriate and balanced diet, but that might not be enough. Remedial steps with the foot itself might be necessary. Some horses, for example, will respond to elevation of the heel of the foot--with or without a toe extension.
"Although an initial tendency may be to try to lower the heel of the foot," Trotter says, "this will make the condition worse. More aggressive types of handcrafted shoes and splints designed to maintain the fetlock in a more normal position may be useful in selected cases. Exercise should be restricted and controlled, but should not be eliminated."
There will be cases where that approach is not enough to effect a remedy.
"If conservative treatment fails," Trotter reports, "transection of the proximal check ligament may be indicated. This procedure is designed to relieve the restrictive effect of this ligament on elongation of the superficial digital flexor tendon...Proximal check ligament desmotomy is technically more difficult to complete than distal check ligament desmotomy and post-operative seroma (a tumor-like collection of fluid in the tissues) formation at the surgery site is also a common complication. However, the procedure can be very useful in selected cases. Some cases will still need to have temporary splinting to maintain proper extension of the fetlock."
As has been suggested several times by Trotter, remedial help for the foal with a flexural deformity might be in the form of a cast or shoes with toe or heel extensions.
However, these remedies have some in-built problems. First of all, it is often difficult to nail a shoe to the small, thin, soft hoof of a youngster. The solution for this problem might be glue-on shoes, but here an expense factor can be involved, along with the shoe not allowing the hoof to expand properly as the foal grows.


My Blue (the Witty Boy granddaughter) had this as a youngster. We treated it with diet (a grad student equine nutritionist) and the farrier working with the vet to determine just how much heel to take and how often. Take too much and you cause pain, which exasperates the situation. Take too little and you compound the problem.

It is easy to treat & manage once you & your farrier understand the issues and the physics of it. We did the paper test - meaning we should not be able to slip a piece of paper under her heals when she was standing square on a flat surface.

The diet issue just takes some time after you get sorted out. Or maybe just back on your program, as it just may be better balanced than where she was.

Those pics show a pretty early and mild case, so simple intervention should help. But really, don't just let the farrier whack off her heels! You may lose some ground before you turn her around, but be patient! If you start a pain cycle it is even harder to fix.

Call me if you want to talk it through.

BTW - Although she will not likely need check ligament surgery, it is always an option. You would be amazed at how many ponies out there in the hunter rings have those scars - even showing on the line. It certainly doesn't seem to hurt their careers any.

SCFarm

[Grataan]

Call and ask if there is some reason he left toe flare. Maybe he felt that they had been very long and recently trimmed and was concerned he would be pushing pony over the edge to founder/abscess/bruise territory if he removed any more toe.



If he/she cant come up with some reasonable explaination I'd do what Deltawave suggested and find a better farrier.

ETA: found the picture ( I always post then read the rest lol sorry) I agree with Patty, doesn't sound nearly as bad as I pictured (maybe the farrier felt like there had already been lots of flare take off and he/she didn't want to remove more) but it is hard to say from the first pics you've posted.

[Chall]

There was a thread on foals and hoof problems, and they mentioned a product, I think *dynasplint* (http://www.dynasplint.com/type/equine.php). I know nothing about the subject, so it may be prescribed for a problem the opposite of yours, but it was the only product I remember. One of the posters above maybe can tell you if its appropriate . Maybe you can call the company and get more information.

[pwynnnorman]

This. It is the simple version of Aquired Flexural Deformity of the Fetlock Joint. It is fairly common in WB foals going through big growth spurts. The pastern/hoof axis is broken forward. Probably because he has some contraction in the tendons. Here's an exerpt from an article in The Horse.
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=744

SCFarm

Geez, I never heard of that before--or had it, as far as I know, although this is a grandson. It sounds like I should discuss it with my vet, which works out pretty well since I'm about to geld the creature, too. Thanks!

BTW, you also wrote that "in severe cases, the horse will knuckle over at the fetlock joint. "

Is that what you see sometimes in AQHA halter babies' hind fetlocks?


Call and ask if there is some reason he left toe flare. Maybe he felt that they had been very long and recently trimmed and was concerned he would be pushing pony over the edge to founder/abscess/bruise territory if he removed any more toe.


He's scheduled to come (to do others) Wednesday, so I figured on a long conversation then--IF he'll "engage" in one, that is. He's kinda your typical arrogant, macho guy, alas, and so might get into a huff if I press the issue (giving me yet another reason to look elsewhere, of course).

[Fairview Horse Center]

Because I'm an idiot and we tend to remake our beasites in our own image?

I am exactly the opposite. I can't shut my mouth and have to live with the physical consequences, but I will definitely stop my animals from suffering the same fate.

[LLDM]

Geez, I never heard of that before--or had it, as far as I know, although this is a grandson. It sounds like I should discuss it with my vet, which works out pretty well since I'm about to geld the creature, too. Thanks!

BTW, you also wrote that "in severe cases, the horse will knuckle over at the fetlock joint. "

Is that what you see sometimes in AQHA halter babies' hind fetlocks?


I don't think it is really a bloodlines issue. It tends to happen when bones grow faster than tendons. It is much more a nutritional issue and more to do with balance (i.e. feeding for even growth). Blue had it because she was a nurse mare's baby, weaned at about a week old and came to me looking pretty pathetic at 3 months. Then I got some bad vet advice, which compounded the problem. If your vet says cut him back feedwise, find another vet. There is a lot of bad/old info out there still.

If, as your pictures indicate, his hoof/pastern axis is broken a bit forward, then the question of whether to lower his heels or raise them must address both the mechanical issue and the the comfort issue. The trick is to find a happy medium until he catches up with himself growth wise. If you can keep it from getting significantly worse while he grows his own way out of it, you will avoid the surgical option. It just takes faith and patience - which is hard for someone like me. ;)

SCFarm

[pwynnnorman]

Sugarpony's farrier came out today and did a bunch of my guys...and I AM IN LOVE!

Here's pics of the pony with the toes:
http://family.webshots.com/photo/2493489600066718914VRyzak
http://family.webshots.com/photo/2900539640066718914wUTcum
http://family.webshots.com/photo/2251483800066718914gsudhq

He's saying they still need some work, but of course, it can't all be corrected at one time.

I swear, just talking to the guy lowered my stress level several notches. (Not having confidence in important "support" pros--vets, farriers, dentists, electricians, contractors, etc.-- has always really gotten to me.)

Thank you, Sugarpony!

[Patty Stiller]

Glad you are happy. A little note about taking hoof pictures. Next time to take the side views, set your camera right down at ground level so it is pointing straight at the side of the foot. It is impossible to evalute a trim from a picture taken at an angle. :)

[pwynnnorman]

Patty, he chuckled about that, too. Said he'd have taken the pictures at the same angle I had (and showed me some, too). I guess that's an area where folks vary in opinion. Then, too, he said he'd never use pics to draw any definitive conclusions anyway. One of the things I really like about him is his broadmindedness. (What I mean is, he didn't have a problem with folks wanting that lowest view, but he himself didn't see the need for it, given how he approaches issues.)

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;4728369]Sugarpony's farrier came out today and did a bunch of my guys...and I AM IN LOVE!


now that is much nicer...remember...if a farrier can he will ;)

Tamara in TN