Magnetic Blankets,are they for real?

[Annie B]

Honestly I have always thought the whole magnet thing was voodoo,however I have been having a trainer who also is a massage therapist work on one of my horses and she puts one on my horse after the therapy.
I respect this person's opinion and she suggested I get one and says she has had good results with them.
What do you all think about them,any results from using them?
I would love to hear from any Vets out there!

[Guilherme]

You're right; it is voodoo.

Search the archives and you'll find many treads (some rather heated) on the subject.

G.

[Donkey]

Plain old magnets I think are up for debate ;) but I think there has been some studies/research done on magnetic pulse therapy which shows more promise (but is very expensive).

[Tazzie]

I've always wondered about this myself.

[MassageLady]

It does work, and has worked for years-why else would the companies still be around? Why would people be using them if they didn't work? I use them, and have helped many people with pain by giving them one of mine.
If you don't believe they work, fine-but it is SCIENTIFICALLY STUDIED by many companies with great results.
http://www.nikken.com/product/technology/#advancedMagnetic
Nikken has been in business since 1975, I have a feeling that there's a good reason for it-perhaps it works.:winkgrin::lol:
To the OP...since you trust your MT, why not listen to her? Would she tell you something works if it didn't? she's there to get your horse to feel his best...and if she DOESN'T it reflects back on HER. I know...I've been a CESMT for 10yrs, and my goal is to get the horse better ASAP.:yes:

[Annie B]

Hey Massage Lady,no need to get touchy!
Before I even think about shelling out a few hundred dollars for something,I thought I would get some other opinions.

[Dinah-do]

Would anyone have a reference to a double blind study. Maybe there is a placebo affect for some riders.

[mvp]

Hey Massage Lady,no need to get touchy!
Before I even think about shelling out a few hundred dollars for something,I thought I would get some other opinions.

Well, wait and watch while the vultures descend on Massage Lady. It has happened in other magnet threads.

[MassageLady]

Gee thanks! I try to put in my two cents and get attacked. These threads always go downhill-because those who 'dont' believe have to degrade those that do-by calling names 'voodoo, psuedoscience', etc. If you would just keep it 'adult' then none of this would go downhill would it??
Sorry Annie...but this is always the same and with the same people...why couldn't 'guilherme' just say that she doesn't believe that they work, instead of saying they're 'voodoo'?? that is the problem here...no respect for others.

[TheOrangeOne]

I have used the pulsed magnetic blankets and find that the horses LOVE it. I think it definitely has a measure of pain relief, and they seem to just love standing under it while it's going. They get very relaxed and happy, and it's nice to see them all blissed out for 30 minutes even if no one can prove it helps.

[Gry2Yng]

I have used the pulsed magnetic blankets and find that the horses LOVE it. I think it definitely has a measure of pain relief, and they seem to just love standing under it while it's going. They get very relaxed and happy, and it's nice to see them all blissed out for 30 minutes even if no one can prove it helps.

This. I have a high end magnetic pulse/electric blanket. I use it. The USET uses it. I don't have much faith in the stand alone sheet with magnets in it.

[alteringwego]

magnetic blankets- some but I think it's from heat trapped more than stimulated blood flow from polarity differences.
pulsed magnetic blankets- yes; horses definitely seem to appreciate them
ceramic infused blankets- yes; horses definitely seem to appreciate them

[pony4me]

Here's another product that people in my barn swear by and use frequently, and usually instead of a magnetic blanket.

http://www.equinelighttherapy.com/

Anybody had any experience with these?

[Gry2Yng]

I did not read in detail, but I would look into/research the equine light therapy. I think laser therapy is effective, so this would have potential in my book.

[Vindicated]

I would try it, if I did'nt have to pay for it.

That said, I think there may be something too the magnet thing. Couple years ago, I pulled a pair of socks out of my mom's sock drawer-put them on, went home-did'nt thing about it again. Until...I pulled them out of my drawer to wear under my paddock boots. It was winter, I get REALLY cold toes. Toes did not turn to toecicles while I was riding. Again, did'nt really think anything of it. Couple days later, socks are clean in my sock drawer, wear them too work...On my feet all day, feet feel GREAT...
Finally, when I take the socks off that night, I look at them.
They have Nikken embrodered on the cuff.

My mom was pretty peeved that she never got her socks back.

Sure wish I had'nt worn them out, or that I could afford a new pair. Best freaking socks I have ever owned

[deltawave]

Nikken has been in business since 1975, I have a feeling that there's a good reason for it-perhaps it works.

The Nigerian banking scam has been around since about 1988. Perhaps because it works, too.

Big, powerful electromagnets may indeed have "effects" on the body. Whether these are beneficial or not is really hard to say. Probably not terribly harmful (except in very distinct situations), possibly somewhat helpful. But regular ones sold as therapeutic magnets are many, many times weaker and it's even harder to say whether there's benefit. Also probably safe, so it's really a matter of whether you want to spend the money and whether you have an inclination to believe it's going to help. I personally think that this has a big impact on perception of benefit on the part of the human doing the observing.

It's highly unlikely that the question "do magnets do anything" will ever be settled once and for all, because there are a large number of different types, used for different things, under different conditions. Nobody is going to bother to put together any comprehensive, well-done, bulletproof studies, so even if one waited 10 years the decision as to whether to try them would still be based on personal inclination and a bit of guessing. :)

If the OP were wondering about possible benefits, it would be useful to see if there were a difference in how the horse felt after massage AND the blanket vs. after massage WITHOUT the blanket. Better, with the magnetic blanket and with a blanket similar in weight and density. Large magnets that cover a large area can insulate pretty well and cause heat retention simply by being dense and heavy.

[CFHall]

My trainer swears by them. Use the pulsed, not the "cheaper" ones sold in catalogs. He also uses cold laser and Game Ready every now and then. Every little bit helps!

[Tom Bloomer]

. . . These threads always go downhill-because those who 'dont' believe . . .

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/the_hidden_flaw_in_greenhouse.html

http://www.globalclimatescam.com/ (http://www.globalclimatescam.com/)

Reverse AGW. Hold your breath!!! :lol:

[Tom Bloomer]

. . .I personally think that this has a big impact on perception of benefit on the part of the human doing the observing.

Perhaps some folks got the diagnostic benefits of magnetic resonance imaging confused with healing power of imaginary magnetic reasoning . . . :cool:

[Guilherme]

Gee thanks! I try to put in my two cents and get attacked. These threads always go downhill-because those who 'dont' believe have to degrade those that do-by calling names 'voodoo, psuedoscience', etc. If you would just keep it 'adult' then none of this would go downhill would it??
Sorry Annie...but this is always the same and with the same people...why couldn't 'guilherme' just say that she doesn't believe that they work, instead of saying they're 'voodoo'?? that is the problem here...no respect for others.

I said that "magnetic therapy" is voodoo because it is; there is not a scintilla of scientific evidence to prove that any magnetic device on sale today to the equine consumer has any beneficial therapudic effect. That has nothing to do with a person who might buy it anyway; it's thier money, they can spend it as they wish. But it won't work because it can't work. "Respect" is not a player, here.

The only magnetic device ever demonstrated to affect living tissue is the MRI. It works. I've personally experienced one. But you'd play hob trying to get one woven into a blanket.

The advocates of "magnetic therapy" have lots of anacdote, but the plural of "anacdote" is not "data." Anacdote, at best, leads to data.

As far as antiquity of being proof of truth, the KKK has been around since 1866. Does that mean that they are true?

I have waited for years for a "magnetic therapy" advocate to cite a credible study proving therapudic effectivness. I'm still waiting.

G.

[RAyers]

The research into magnetic fields on biological tissue is a WELL defined and studied area. Look at work by the Bioelectromagnetics Society: "The Bioelectromagnetics Society (BEMS) was established in 1978 as an independent organization of biological and physical scientists, physicians and engineers interested in the interactions of non-ionizing radiation with biological systems."

Much of the work published has defined how magnetic/electric fields affect tissue as well as how magnetic/electric fields are generated at the cellular level. One thing is clear, static magnet fields have no large effect unless used at insanely high levels (1 Tesla or higher) for LONG periods, e.g. being inside an MRI for 16 hours. Pulsed magnetic/electric fields are different, however, they are frequency dependent as to their effect and none of the clothing products are these. Now TENS, while a bioelectromagnetic method, is different as that is a directly applied electric field.

Sharing experiences is good but many times what is left out is the fact that other things were changed or done, or that the condition may subside but not actually be resolved.

Reed

[MassageLady]

I said that "magnetic therapy" is voodoo because it is; there is not a scintilla of scientific evidence to prove that any magnetic device on sale today to the equine consumer has any beneficial therapudic effect.
Yet...thousands of people do benefit from using them everyday-so I guess I'm a 'voodoo princess':lol:

RAyers...thank you for your response-it was very professional and I appreciate that. However, there are many things that aren't scientifically proven that do work-and things that are studied and 'proven', then pulled off the shelf because they have such dangerous side effects to them.

The Nigerian banking scam has been around since about 1988. Perhaps because it works, too.
Reminds me of the American Cancer Society :winkgrin: how many years and billions of dollars have been given to them with NO cure in sight? (at least in the western world---so glad I'm not a 'believe' in western medicine, and be scammed by them)

[deltawave]

NO cure in sight?Huh? :eek: I know dozens and dozens of people, probably more, who have had cancers cured. Actual cancer, tissue diagnosis, actual cure as in completely gone with no trace in sight years and years if not decades later. Not diagnosed by deduction and cured by assumption, but the real thing. Cancer is not a catch-all term; there are dozens and dozens of different types of cancer. Some curable, some not.

Of all the terrible diseases with which we're afflicted, cancer is one of the VERY few that can actually BE cured. Not always, of course, not even often enough, but certainly more often than the things that wind up killing most of us.

Ignorance is breathtaking sometimes, wow.

[RAyers]

Yet...thousands of people do benefit from using them everyday-so I guess I'm a 'voodoo princess':lol:...


While what you say is true, and I appreciate your position but I have had several horses I have had injured by massage and chiropractics so to me those are just voodoo.

Reed

[deltawave]

Shoot, real Voodoo can have some very powerful effects on the recipient, provided the recipient (I'm not sure if that's the right word) believes it will work. This is true for a lot of remedies, treatments and belief systems: efficacy is in the eye of the believer. Or, you have to believe it to see it. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't try to call it what it isn't.

This is a really very interesting synthesis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447278/) of an aspect of the topic. :yes:

[Guilherme]

Yet...thousands of people do benefit from using them everyday-so I guess I'm a 'voodoo princess':lol:

No, not really.

Many claim benefits but we can't know if any claim is accurate unless we do a SOAP analysis. So we're still in the realm of anacdote.

As to curing cancer, some are curable and some are not. I've got half dozen women I know who are breast cancer survivors (including one of 35 who recently underwent a double mastectomy). At two years she's still OK.

I've had three friends dies of pancreatic cancer. That's a bad one.

By autopsy 70%+ of men over the age of 70 have prostate cancer, but none died of it.

Do some research and tell us what the average life expectancy for men, women and children was in 1900. Now tell us what it is in 2000. Then tell us again how utterly awful modern medicine is. We'll patiently await your answer.

The hard truth is that there is no evidence that these devices work beyond the MRI.

G.

[Lucassb]

I have used two magnetic products with success.

The first ones I tried were the hock wraps that I purchased years ago for my aging, somewhat arthritic TB. They made a significant positive difference for him (however, I am willing to believe that the wrap itself, creating warmth/support, may have provided the benefit, not the magnets... don't know, and don't care, really, I was just happy it worked for him.)

More recently I invested in a pulsed mag blanket for my current horse. He clearly loves massage and I had good results using one I borrowed this winter. I got this one: http://www.sport-innovations.com/sites/products_blanket_detail.php

[deltawave]

I note the rental program for the product you listed--that makes a lot of sense to me if someone were looking to just try one out.

A curiosity-based question: did the product come with any warnings that you were readily able to see/read about the use of these products with medical devices such as pacemakers, etc?

[merrygoround]

Huh? :eek: I know dozens and dozens of people, probably more, who have had cancers cured. Actual cancer, tissue diagnosis, actual cure as in completely gone with no trace in sight years and years if not decades later. Not diagnosed by deduction and cured by assumption, but the real thing. Cancer is not a catch-all term; there are dozens and dozens of different types of cancer. Some curable, some not.

Of all the terrible diseases with which we're afflicted, cancer is one of the VERY few that can actually BE cured. Not always, of course, not even often enough, but certainly more often than the things that wind up killing most of us.

Ignorance is breathtaking sometimes, wow.

Some one had to say it, And I think you said it well.

[Lucassb]

I note the rental program for the product you listed--that makes a lot of sense to me if someone were looking to just try one out.

A curiosity-based question: did the product come with any warnings that you were readily able to see/read about the use of these products with medical devices such as pacemakers, etc?

Nope, not that I noticed. But the mag fields in the blanket (measured in milliTesla, one one thousandth of a Tesla) are *much* lower than say, a typical MRI (these days, most decent imaging centers have at least a 1.5 Tesla field strength.)

By the way... Medtronic came out last year with a pacemaker that is MRI safe. Sadly not approved for use here yet by the FDA, but being widely used in Europe.

[deltawave]

pacemaker that is MRI safe

Conditionally safe, in exceptionally tight circumstances, but yes a huge step forward and badly needed. :yes:

There is concern with even small magnetic fields and implantable devices--it's not only MRIs. I'm surprised (well, not really) that there aren't at least general warnings with these blankets for people with implanted devices. :no:

[MistyBlue]

Reminds me of the American Cancer Society :winkgrin: how many years and billions of dollars have been given to them with NO cure in sight? (at least in the western world---so glad I'm not a 'believe' in western medicine, and be scammed by them)

Patently false. Extremely blatantly false.
There are more cancer deaths outside of the western world than in it.
And FWIW...Essiac Tea does not cure cancer. American Cancer Society has a bit more success than that. ;)

[deltawave]

Essiac Tea does not cure cancer

It can, if the cancer is self-diagnosed or based on guesswork. I have seen a small handful of patients who insist that their cancer was cured with laetrile or crystals or whatever, or that their carotids were cleaned out with chelation therapy. Interestingly, the "pre treatment" diagnostics are universally, 100% of the time, somehow missing or misplaced--there are only post-treatment test results showing the absence of disease . . . a CURE. It's a miracle! :rolleyes:

[MistyBlue]

Well in all fairness and in defense of tea...that SleepyTime tea seems to work just as advertised. My husband had a cup 30 minutes ago and is snoring in the recliner. :sleepy:

Otherwise it's the same ol', same ol'. Kind of like that somewhat recent Lavender Lady that was curing horses by sending her energy to them via long distance brain waves and diagnosing them via internet photos. Yet the horse was never diagnosed with testing for anything, and it was never given medication. But yet the website for the sales of the special healing treatments and herbs claim the horse was diagnosed and cured when nothing else worked. :rolleyes:
So much for anecdotal evidence. :winkgrin:

[deltawave]

Yet each practitioner and their flock of believers is convinced that they're the ones that have figured it out. Never realizing or acknowledging that the practice of quackery has been around for as long as people (and horses, I guess) have been prone to seeing what they want to see and suffering from illness or disease. It's a long and colorful parade, anyway. But there's nothing new under the sun. :p

Which is not to say that feeling better, no matter how it's come by, is a bad thing. But if you're going to define it as something that works and has measurable benefit, well, show us the measurements. ANd if you're going to insist that it's not subject to the rigors of proof, well, then call it magic. That's fine. Just don't try and blend the two. :)

[Mach Two]

I'll wade in...
I have used magnetic hock boots on a horse that used to come out a bit stiff in the morning...this was something that would work out after 30 minutes of walking...but I often needed to get two horses ridden between daylight and needing to leave for work, ...so I tried magnetic hock boots on that horse...and he came out feeling more flexible and free moving ...willing trot right out, and for me, on that tight schedule, it let me get some trot sets and two short gallops in in the AM.

I had some really painful foot thing going on, pain in the ball of my foot and arch, and had tried gel insoles, foam insoles, orthotics, etc, to no effect...but finally tried a set of Nikken insoles, and my feet stopped hurting that day...and I did not have arch and ball of foot pain as long as I used them.
Was it placebo effect for me? I don't know...I sure hoped the gel, the foam, the orthotic were going to help, but they did not. So for me, they worked, and for the horse, they sure seemed to help.

Last case, when I am outdoors, I protect my neck with a cotton bandana, just to reduce sun damage. I have old neck injuries, and now bone spurs. I was driving long distances, and my neck was hurting, so I wrapped one of my sample size Nikken magnets in my same old cotton bandana....and my neck did not get stiff and sore. I keep one handy these days for long drives...and for me, it helps.
To each his own. My husband does not see HOW reflexology or acupressure can work...he has a scientific appreach to everything...but he sure feels better when I work on his feet and muscle knots.
Just my own experiences. It's fun to discuss, and I'm all for the benefits of a good horse or human MT!

[Tom Bloomer]

I'll wade in...


Wade through THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology). :cool:

or a slightly less rigorous version HERE (http://successfromthenest.com/content/what-you-know/).

[deltawave]

Tom, tsk tsk. Using wikipedia to illustrate the tenets of philosophy is . . . just . . . wrong. :lol: But hey, at least it's out there. Who knew?

[BeeHoney]

If your horse DOES NOT actually have anything wrong with it, but you BELIEVE your horse has something wrong with it because you don't actually know anything about horses and you are impressed by an expensive, fancy looking piece of equipment, and spending gobs of cash will make you feel like you are doing the right thing, then a magnetic blanket might work great.

I'm going to apologize right now if my comment seems harsh, but that is my honest opinion.

I have investigated the science surrounding therapeutic magnet use. There is not a shred of evidence that plopping "regular" (static) magnets on the body surface has any therapeutic effect. In many cases the magnetic field of these expensive devices is not even strong enough to penetrate the protective covering of the magnet, let alone penetrate into the tissues.

This idea that something can still work even if scientific studies disprove it is crazy to me. If something works, you should be able to show that it works, right? That's all a scientific study does, there's no magic to it.

Why are expensive magnetic devices all around? Because truth and what sells are two different things. It is weird to me, but you see it all the time...people who won't pay for or take their boring but well proven high blood pressure medicine, but will spend $100s of dollars on untested and unproven "natural" supplements with unknown ingredients but really fabulous (though vague) promises of "good health" or "cleansing the body of toxins."

[MassageLady]

I would like to thank Mach Two for their input here, and entering the 'lions' den' with me.
I try my best to answer these topics to the best of my ability-knowing what has worked for me and for my clients.

if you don't believe they work-that's fine...but can we please keep it nice here and stop with the nastiness and name calling?

Just because I don't believe the same way you do, doesn't make me an idiot or someone who 'falls' for 'voodoo' and crazy things. I have found, personally, that natural therapies work much better, and faster than the drugs-the natural therapies work on ACTUALLY CURING WHAT CAUSES THE PROBLEM-NOT MANAGING THE SYMPTOMS AND KEEPING YOU ON DRUGS FOREVER.:(
I have said what I want to say-I'm done here.

[Annie B]

Thanks everybody for your replies,some interesting things to think about.

[NSF]

I had magnets that were about the size of a silver dollar that fit into little pockets on a knee brace. I used to get really bad menstrual cramps (sweating, shaking, about to pass out) and I started to tape them to my stomach as soon as I knew they were coming. They made a significant difference.

[ExJumper]

Let me start by saying that I have a PhD in physics, and I work in radiation oncology and medical imaging.

The reason that some people get passionate about magnets and magnetic therapy is that we hate to see people waste money. People before me have gone in to more detail, so I won't rehash it all, but I'd like to have myself counted on the "pseudoscience" side of the debate.

Also, one of the problems inherent with double blind studies in the case of magnets is that you can never hide the fact that it is a magnet. The brain is remarkably powerful and if you believe something hard enough you can often make it happen to yourself physiologically.

As others have said, the type of refrigerator magnets that are being sold for hundreds of dollars are orders of magnitude lower in power than MRI machines. If the "circulation" and "healing" properties are true of those little earth magnets, then an MRI should both cure of of all that ails you and send your blood whirling and swirling and churning through your body. Your head should explode!

Anyway, you can believe whatever you want, but the actual science simply doesn't support anything beyond a placebo effect -- which I'll grant you can be tremendously powerful.

[MassageLady]

Oh Please...do you really think anyone would use a refrigerator magnet?? :lol::lol:

and the reason we're passionate about using magnets and alternatives is because we hate seeing people waste their money on drugs that don't work...only causes them to take more drugs for the side effects they cause.

It's not in our heads...so please stop being so condescending to those of us who KNOW they do work-many people here other than me have told you how they have helped not only us, but animals as well.

Ah yes...the old 'placebo effect'...guess what, animals don't have the placebo effect. :lol::lol: So, how can it show it helps them if it's 'all in their head'?

yes..I guess we're just a bunch of kooks.:no:

[Mach Two]

I have to agree with Massage Lady...when you put a massage blanket on a horse, the horse typically shows relaxation: eyes closed, head nodding...they enjoy it immensely! If it were just the warming effect of a blanket in general, then any horse that is blanketed would show the same response. When the magnetic blanket is taken off, and the horse is ridden, the back is more "warmed up" , relaxed, and flexible. Horses do not anticipate a placebo.

In upper level eventing (under FEI rules), we could use magnetic blankets freely...and believe me, they were used a lot when I was involved at those levels.

[caffeinated]

Oh It's not in our heads...so please stop being so condescending to those of us who KNOW they do work-many people here other than me have told you how they have helped not only us, but animals as well.

OK, well how do you know?

Beyond "I've seen it" because it's pretty well established that we can make ourselves believe all kinds of things. I have a dear friend who absolutely believes a certain kind of alternative therapy is necessary for her horse - yet I watch the same therapy and the same horse and see no change or benefit from it. The horse seems just as happy before and after, and just as sound. I've ridden her as well and never felt any difference before and after. Perhaps that's my skeptical brain at work, and because I don't want to see a change, I don't. But by the same token, how do I know she isn't seeing a change just because she wants to, and is therefore looking for any possible little thing that supports that?

If one really *knows* something then there should be some proof beyond anecdote, shouldn't there?

[Gry2Yng]

OK, well how do you know?


If one really *knows* something then there should be some proof beyond anecdote, shouldn't there?

Well, I *know* I feel better after a deep tissue massage. How do I provide proof to you? I am asking you this sincerely. There is no difference in my range of motion, but my pain is decreased thru that range. What would be the proper evidence so that you could *know* this too. Same with chiropractic. I do not limp, but after an adjustment the pain is reduced and the headaches disappear. If I can't speak and tell you these things, my attitude would be the only indicator, I am guessing.

No hostility or argument in this question. Smiling as I type. Just curious.

[RAyers]

Well, I *know* I feel better after a deep tissue massage. How do I provide proof to you? I am asking you this sincerely. There is no difference in my range of motion, but my pain is decreased thru that range. What would be the proper evidence so that you could *know* this too. Same with chiropractic. I do not limp, but after an adjustment the pain is reduced and the headaches disappear. If I can't speak and tell you these things, my attitude would be the only indicator, I am guessing.

No hostility or argument in this question. Smiling as I type. Just curious.


Good question. Proprioception and associated nerve types is just coming to the fore in research concerning bone and joint pain. I just finished reading an article in Bone that shows that the nerve types in bone are different than in skin so palpation of skin may not actually induce the true pain response the patient feels. The opposite can also be true. By stimulating other nerve pathways such as outer tissue, you attenuate the deeper nerves, e.g. bone, so the pain is diminished.

Reed

[deltawave]

We can "know" something helps us by listening to our senses. But if we say we "know" something works for others, we have to rely on other things. So if someone tells me that treatment XYZ makes them feel better, I believe them. And if another person tells me that treatment XYZ does not help them at all, I believe them as well. But who is right? Well, both of them are, unless they're lying. But if we wish to promote, sell, or sing the praises of our product XYZ, it would not do at all to acknowledge or pay attention to the people that say it didn't help them. Yet those people still exist. This is where--surprise!--collections of reports known as . . . controlled trials come into play. So one could say "treatment XYZ helped 75% of people with symptom ABC under conditions QRS". Which is a lot more helpful to someone with ABC than "it works!", "no it doesn't!". Now there are some studies out there, of varying quality. None that I've ever seen really demonstrates much of an effect with static magnets. Even powerful electromagnets, long believed to be at least somewhat helpful with fracture healing, etc. have not shown much when large meta-analyses are done. So those of use who require a level of evidence a little higher than a salesperson for a product insisting it's beneficial are left unconvinced. That doesn't mean some people don't feel better for using them. And if they're happy, who's to complain? But if one is looking to buy one, one would be perfectly within their rights to want to, well, KNOW if it's likely to help, or not. Pardon the crappy formatting, my computer randomly does this. :(

[Gry2Yng]

So those of use who require a level of evidence a little higher than a salesperson for a product insisting it's beneficial are left unconvinced. That doesn't mean some people don't feel better for using them. And if they're happy, who's to complain? But if one is looking to buy one, one would be perfectly within their rights to want to, well, KNOW if it's likely to help, or not. (

All of what you say is true. One is perfectly within their rights to know before they purchase. But if you ask a BB about massage therapy, people can only give you their experience. They are not salesmen. I don't know if there are any controlled studies for massage helping xyz under abc conditions. But even so, if you can't MEASURE a change in my gait or range of motion, you are relying on my "perception" which may or may not include a placebo effect.

I can certainly find people who were not helped by massage. I even know one gal that got seriously nauseous from it. But I *know* that after a deep tissue massage I can sleep at night without having to wrap my right arm around my head. If you followed me around for 22 hours you would be hard pressed to find any other symptom of the muscle pain in my arm and neck. And if you had only met me within the past three years, you would say that is a "normal" thing for me to sleep that way. I ride three horses, teach lessons, run, hook and unhook the trailer, tote hay bales, cook, drink wine, etc just like I always have. IF you had known me for 10 years but hadn't observed me trying to fall asleep, you wouldn't know. See what I am getting at? Anyway. Love the discussion. (by the way, the neck and arm pain coincide with the birth of my daughter - she's a heavy little bundle that throws me off balance). So, I am in pain, you wouldn't know it to observe me unless you paid really close attention or had known me for a long time. Massage makes me feel better, unless you have a controlled study, you have to take my word.

Not pitching the magnets here, tho I do have a bio pulse. I appreciate the skepticism it keeps me honest with my expectations and hopeful keeps my observations objective.

[deltawave]

But if you ask a BB about massage therapy, people can only give you their experience. They are not salesmen. Some of them are. :)

[Thomas_1]

If you've got money to burn and believe they'll do good then go ahead and burn your money :winkgrin:

[She's Pure Gold]

I don't know if there are any controlled studies for massage helping xyz under abc conditions. But even so, if you can't MEASURE a change in my gait or range of motion, you are relying on my "perception" which may or may not include a placebo effect.


There are many excellent studies on the effectiveness of MT :yes: Google scholar is your friend for this if you want to check them out (though I will fully admit that not all of the articles that you find are credible..not mentioning any names). Things such as ROM or gait can be measured, and have been in research. Pain is also quantifiable.

As for magnetic therapy, I'm going to jump in with the skeptics.

[Thomas_1]

I wouldn't want to be relying on google to find controlled scientific studies that have all then necessary criteria for such as sampling size, blind comparisons and peer group review.

You may as well go to Wikipedia or post on a horse bulletin board and see if someone turns up and says it's fantastic and proven!!

[RAyers]

I wouldn't want to be relying on google to find controlled scientific studies that have all then necessary criteria for such as sampling size, blind comparisons and peer group review.

You may as well go to Wikipedia or post on a horse bulletin board and see if someone turns up and says it's fantastic and proven!!

Google Scholar is actually a good database for peer reviewed journals. Don't write off all of Google yet.

Reed

[She's Pure Gold]

I wouldn't want to be relying on google to find controlled scientific studies that have all then necessary criteria for such as sampling size, blind comparisons and peer group review.

You may as well go to Wikipedia or post on a horse bulletin board and see if someone turns up and says it's fantastic and proven!!

Ah, regular google- yes I agree with you. Google Scholar is specifically for scholarly, peer-reviewed articles published in journals. They are the same ones you can access through a university data-base, but not everyone has access to a data base so for those people, Google Scholar is the next best thing. To find it, it's on the dropdown menu "more" at the top of the page (next to images, videos, etc).

[Tom Bloomer]

Pardon the crappy formatting, my computer randomly does this. :(No it doesn't - not random. You just don't know the specific conditions that trigger the "behavior." :lol:

[Thomas_1]

Ah, regular google- yes I agree with you. Google Scholar is specifically for scholarly, peer-reviewed articles published in journals. They are the same ones you can access through a university data-base, but not everyone has access to a data base so for those people, Google Scholar is the next best thing. To find it, it's on the dropdown menu "more" at the top of the page (next to images, videos, etc).

Thanks for the hint and here's what I turned up straight away

"A growing multibillion dollar industry markets magnetic necklaces, bracelets, bands, insoles, back braces, mattresses, etc., for pain relief, although there is little evidence for their efficacy. We sought to evaluate the effect of magnetic therapy on pain intensity and opioid requirements in patients with postoperative pain. We designed a randomized, double-blind, controlled trial. One-hundred-sixty-five patients older than 12 yr of age were randomized to magnetic (n = 81) or sham therapy (n = 84) upon reporting moderate-to-severe pain in the postanesthesia care unit. Devices were placed over the surgical incision and left in place for 2 h. Patients rated their pain intensity on a 0–10 scale every 10 min and received incremental doses of morphine until pain intensity was 4 of 10. Pain intensity levels were similar in both groups. The magnet group had on average 0.04 U more pain intensity (95% confidence interval, –0.4 to 0.5) than the sham group. Opioid requirements also were similar in both groups. The active magnet group required 1.5 mg more morphine (95% confidence interval, –1.8 to 4.0) than the sham magnet group. Magnetic therapy lacks efficacy in controlling acute postoperative pain intensity levels or opioid requirements and should not be recommended for pain relief in this setting." From the *Department of Anesthesia, San Ignacio Hospital, and Clinical Epidemiology Unit, Javeriana University School of Medicine, Bogota, Colombia; and Department of Anesthesia, Tufts-New England Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts.




The delivery of a unipolar static magnetic field
through a magnetized device directly applied to the
point of greatest wrist pain resulted in no significant
difference in relief of pain when compared with an
identical placebo device. However, both magnet and
placebo produced a significant decrease in pain during
the 45-minute application that was still detectable
at the 2-week follow-up. The decrease in pain
observed in both experimental and control groups
could be attributed to a variety of causes. Most likely,
this is a placebo effect due to the patients' belief
in the efficacy of the device. RICHARD CARTER; THOMAS HALL; CHERYL B. ASPY, PHD; AND JAMES MOLD, MD, MPH
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

[MassageLady]

So..what I'm hearing is that only the way that YOUR scientists study it is the only way, and they are the only ones to be believed. If we tout our studies on the products, then it's basically useless information. :lol: sorry Thomas...i don't believe your findings either.

please explain to me why would intelligen people, that have gone thru years of training to be a doctor (vet/people)switch over and work only with alternative medicine?? could it be that they have found something that works better?:yes:

I have to agree with Massage Lady...when you put a massage blanket on a horse, the horse typically shows relaxation: eyes closed, head nodding...they enjoy it immensely! If it were just the warming effect of a blanket in general, then any horse that is blanketed would show the same response. When the magnetic blanket is taken off, and the horse is ridden, the back is more "warmed up" , relaxed, and flexible. Horses do not anticipate a placebo.

Thanks MachTwo...appreciate that.

OK, well how do you know?

perhaps because of PERSONALLY using them and feeling the affects...and working on horses for the past 10yrs and seeing how they have helped them. But I guess that doesn't count either does it?:lol: Hundreds of horses-but it's placebo:lol:

If you've got money to burn and believe they'll do good then go ahead and burn your money
Rather burn it on something that works than a drug that doesn't.

[Thomas_1]

So..what I'm hearing is that only the way that YOUR scientists study it is the only way, and they are the only ones to be believed. If we tout our studies on the products, then it's basically useless information. :lol: I never saw anyone say that but I do know you always pop up on these sort of postings and have a little stomping feet rant at anyone who doubts the validity of YOUR assertions.

sorry Thomas...i don't believe your findings either. Please note that because I managed to master the art of google that it doesn't make me a scientist and it doesn't make what I posted mine - clue it's in quotes and accredited to those whose findings they are.

please explain to me why would intelligen people, that have gone thru years of training to be a doctor (vet/people)switch over and work only with alternative medicine?? could it be that they have found something that works better?:yes: Could be a multitude of reasons ranging from they were never a good doctor through to they fancy doing something else and have been caught by the marketing and opportunity for "alternatives" with no scientific backing and the extraordinarily high margins and profits it generates.

perhaps because of PERSONALLY using them and feeling the affects...and working on horses for the past 10yrs and seeing how they have helped them. But I guess that doesn't count either does it?:lol: Hundreds of horses-but it's placebo:lol: Data and anecdote don't have the same worth! Placebo requires nothing but belief. No data and no evidence necessary just a willingness to believe and part with your money and pay someone for something that you believe might work.

Rather burn it on something that works than a drug that doesn't. Phooey! By your argument you could just "believe" a drug works or take a werthers mint and you'd get better!

[She's Pure Gold]

please explain to me why would intelligen people, that have gone thru years of training to be a doctor (vet/people)switch over and work only with alternative medicine?? could it be that they have found something that works better?:yes:

perhaps because of PERSONALLY using them and feeling the affects...and working on horses for the past 10yrs and seeing how they have helped them. But I guess that doesn't count either does it?:lol: Hundreds of horses-but it's placebo:lol:


MassageLady, I have a good article for you to read. Watch out though, the word "science" is on the page a few times :eek: :winkgrin:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090821135020.htm

No, it is not about massage or magnetic therapy, but the message is transferable. An interesting read for anyone else, too, esp. if you have interest in psychology/cognition at all..

[deltawave]

So Massage Lady, let's see some of "your" studies, the ones you refer to. ( I assume you mean Nikken did them but I don't want to say that for you). But didn't you also say you didn't need evidence or proof since you already "know" your product works? :confused:

If "your" studies are peer reviewed they ought to be readily accessible on any scholarly database. I'm going to hazard a guess that they are not. And yes, in-house or propietary studies are a few cuts below the gold standard in ALL scholarly or scientific endeavors.

If you embrace the study of a product's effectiveness and if you are certain the product is what you say it is, the product should be put to the most rigorous tests you can find. If it works, it will come out a winner. But don't say you don't need evidence in one breath and whine about your evidence getting no respect in the next.

[deltawave]

Pure Gold, what a great article, thanks. My psychic powers tell me, however, that the minds most badly in need of reading it will reject it out of hand. Sort of axiomatic, I think, actually.

[She's Pure Gold]

If you embrace the study of a product's effectiveness and if you are certain the product is what you say it is, the product should be put to the most rigorous tests you can find. If it works, it will come out a winner. But don't say you don't need evidence in one breath and whine about your evidence getting no respect in the next.

Brilliant. But, my prediction is- she will come back with "science can't prove everything" and point towards the folks who thought the world was flat and now we know it's round and maybe even bring quantum physics into it...that seems to be a favorite of many bodyworkers, though I don't understand why..:confused:

[She's Pure Gold]

Pure Gold, what a great article, thanks. My psychic powers tell me, however, that the minds most badly in need of reading it will reject it out of hand. Sort of axiomatic, I think, actually.

lol- but don't forget- WE are the closed-minded ones because we don't belieeeve :lol:

[MistyBlue]

Science is da Debil. :eek: :no: :eek:

[Gry2Yng]

From the link above...

Co-author Steven Hoffman, Ph.D., visiting assistant professor of sociology at the University at Buffalo, says, "Our data shows substantial support for a cognitive theory known as 'motivated reasoning,' which suggests that rather than search rationally for information that either confirms or disconfirms a particular belief, people actually seek out information that confirms what they already believe.
"In fact," he says, "for the most part people completely ignore contrary information.

Not sure you really needed to spend any money on a study to make this statement. :lol:

A closed mind is a closed mind. I hope I can see both sides and evaluate what works in my program and what doesn't. Strangely enough, for joints, I won't touch anything that doesn't have a study behind it. Limits me, eh? With the Bio Pulse, I use it. I like it.

[deltawave]

I won't touch anything that doesn't have a study behind it A bit of the Devil's advocate: Vioxx (a favorite of the "medicine is evil" crowd) had all kinds of studies behind it. Worked very, very nicely for joints. Not so great in the grand scheme for certain people, though. :( Which points out very nicely that it's complicated. :D The more evidence, the better. The article SPG posted is going on my "list" of things to send people. And speaking for myself, the temptation is RIGHT THERE, even though I like to consider myself reasonably rational and broad-minded. SO tempting to only see what we want to see. SO intellectually dishonest to succumb to that temptation.

[Gry2Yng]

DW, sometimes, you just have to step out of the box. Think how much fun it would be to validate your intellectual honesty by actually being dishonest to it.

[deltawave]

Well, as my favorite TV doctor likes to say: "everybody lies". :D If we can't lie to ourselves, then who is there? :p

[RAyers]

But see, this is what any good researcher does. We DO step outside our box. We HAVE to in order to look at the DATA objectively. So we are always "out of the box." It allows us to ask the hard questions and to push understanding.

A-priori understanding does little to further knowledge.

Everyday we validate our honesty by looking at the facts as presented and having others look at those facts as well, judging our interpretation of them.

Reed

[Gry2Yng]

We have the same favorite tv doctor. Reed, I just think it would be fun to watch dw TOUCH a magnetic blanket. Do either of you think she might disappear in a puff of purple smoke? Next show, I want Lynn to let me put my bio pulse on Bonnie.

gry

[ExJumper]

Oh Please...do you really think anyone would use a refrigerator magnet?? :lol::lol:

and the reason we're passionate about using magnets and alternatives is because we hate seeing people waste their money on drugs that don't work...only causes them to take more drugs for the side effects they cause.

It's not in our heads...so please stop being so condescending to those of us who KNOW they do work-many people here other than me have told you how they have helped not only us, but animals as well.

Ah yes...the old 'placebo effect'...guess what, animals don't have the placebo effect. :lol::lol: So, how can it show it helps them if it's 'all in their head'?

yes..I guess we're just a bunch of kooks.:no:

Actually, for all intents and purposes, the sorts of magnets sewn into blankets and wraps etc ARE nothing more than refrigerator magnets. Please tell me how they are any different. If they aren't electromagnets or pulsed magnetic fields they are essentially refrigerator magnets.

And yes -- the placebo effect WE perceive can most certainly be seen in our horses. I didn't bother to go on and on about it in my original post because I was trying to be concise.

Let's say you put a magnetic wrap on a horse because he looks lame. Three days later he looks better. What could have happened? Any number of things NOT related to the magnet. The heat, compression, and support of the wrap made him feel better. He was going to get better any way. You were more aware of the injury so worked him differently or warmed him up better.

I am not trying to talk down to you, but I AM a scientist. And I KNOW that there is no physical way that magnets can in ANY way influence the body physiologically. Blood is not magnetized. Tissue is not magnetized. There is nothing in the body that would be attracted, repelled, or anything else by a magnetic field, much less one so weak!

And just to reiterate, the magnets used in these devices are EXACTLY THE SAME as refrigerator magnets. Even if you say that they are particularly strong refrigerator magnets, the strength is so much weaker than any other physical force in nature, it is irrelevant.

[deltawave]

We have the same favorite tv doctor. Reed, I just think it would be fun to watch dw TOUCH a magnetic blanket. Do either of you think she might disappear in a puff of purple smoke? Next show, I want Lynn to let me put my bio pulse on Bonnie.

gry

I was not always a crusty old skeptic. :D I have *gasp* actually tried magnets on various horses over the years. Never noticed diddly squat, for the record.

As long as the magnetic blanket doesn't interfere with my tinfoil hat. ;) Although I did see an ad for lead-lined hats somewhere the other day, for people who spend a lot of time around radiation. Sounds pretty cool, except the radiation I mostly mess around with goes right through lead. :sigh:

What is a Bio Pulse? I tried one of those super-vibrator blankets on Gwen once; she hated it. :p My friend's gelding, however, whooowee, he looked like he'd need a cigarette when he was done if you know what I mean! :winkgrin: