Is your mare sedated for palpations, AI? If not...

[JoZ]

Can you explain your set-up for mare exams of a personal nature, e.g., rectal palpations or AI? Is your mare sedated? If not, do you have stocks or some other physical structure to (somewhat) restrain her? Or does the vet just come in, shake her hoof in greeting, and get down to business?

We do not have stocks and my vet has chosen to sedate prior to exam/insemination. I have a mare who cannot be sedated so I am wondering about the options for her.

P.S. If you have/use stocks and can link to the type you have, that would be most helpful. TIA!

[TrueColours]

We'll usually start out with the lip chain on the mares we dont know that need to have an ultrasound done. If that doesnt subdue them satisfactorily, we may also go to a twitch as well. As a last resort they will get a shot of Dormo/Torb to allow the vet to work back there in safety

We also find some mares react violently to the lip chain, so we'll try them with the Stableizer instead (which has the soft plastic coated nylon twine running across their upper lip rather than a chain) which has basically the same effect, but in a less severe manner

And the mares we know are okay, just stand there with a cotton shank and thats it

We dont have breeding stocks (hopefully this year!) so we will either have their rear ends in the open doorway and the vet has the wall for protection, or if he is a little leery of how they are acting still, we'll put the half door down and shut the door entirely so he has the entire door for protection. Or - in some cases we have gone to planting them in the corner of their stall, by the open swinging feed door and the vet can reach in there and U/S them. That works well in MOST cases, but if the mare swings suddenly it can also trap their arms in between the mare and the bars of the stall so you do have to be very careful

And if we know they are going to be a cow before we start, they get the Dormo/Torb and thats the end of it

[Signature]

We stick ours halfway in and out of a stall with butt in the aisle. If they don't act like they are going to be having it, we just sedeate them with some Xylazine. I am not a big preponent of chains or twitches and then risking them moving and getting torn... we have many that need nothing, and some that even come in the stall and back themselves halfway out!! It's a stitch! :) I think we only have 2 or 3 out of 8 that need sedation, some have gotten better with time.

Oh, and we let them eat grain from a bucket the whole time if they are not sedated so they don't think that deal is all so bad. We feel it's the least we can do while they quietly accept a hand up their toosh. LOL :)

We have thought about building stocks but we almost don't need it as most are so good luckily.

[Coppers mom]

Have you bred the mare before? How did she react?

Our vet has stocks, and most don't need anything else. Occasionally, we'll use a different vet to check the mares in foal, and the more experienced ones just stand there in the aisle like it's nothing.

[NorthHillFarm]

We do the majority of our repro work at the vet clinic, where she has stocks. I know she will sedate some of the mares that come in to the clinic- particularly if she's alone when working on them and they are misbehaving in the stocks.
However, when she comes to the farm, we either park the hind-end in a stall doorway or use the stocks. We purchased the stocks last year (from our vet when she bought a new set) as we had a mare that would get light with her back feet. We never sedated her (except to do ET at the vet clinic) but when she was parked in the doorway she liked to lift up a hind foot and let the vet know she could kick her lights out...thankfully, she never actually did! When my vet decided to buy a new set of stocks, she offered hers to us mostly because of that mare (well, that and we were doing a LOT of ultrasounds last year!). We could always tell when we hit that mare dead in heat though, that's the only time she never threatened to kick! All of my other girls are great just getting parked in a doorway. I put a chain over the nose most of the time but have never had to use it.
It will be up the the vet this year whether we use the stocks or not...we have to move them from a storage barn into the aisle just for her visit as we do not have a breeding stall set up...someday...

[TrueColours]

Oh! And the other thing is - my sister used to use a vet who worked out. A LOT!!! And as a result, his forearms were flipping gigantic and I guess the mares REALLY took exception to THAT arm widening the opening and the rectal tract as much as it did

She also used another vet that couldnt always come when she needed him that was farther away. He didnt work out and he had a normal, long, thin arm

For Vet #1 - they needed to immobilize her and usually sedate her. For Vet #2 - never. She stood like a rock and I dont even think they had a chain on her at all

So - I guess you need to ask any prospective repro vets if you can see their arms first before you decide if you are going to use them or not???

We do giggle about it now, but at the time it was awful. This poor mare was really upset every time he got near her. She knew it was going to hurt. A LOT!!!

[arizonard]

We have stocks and I would never go back! So much easier and safer in my opinion. We have yet to need sedation for palpations since we switched to using the stocks.

Ours are similar to these:
http://www.tritonbarns.com/palpation_stocks.php

[tanderson]

I have a mare that for some strange reason is TERRIFIED of crinkly plastic bags. The minute the vet pulls out the plastic glove she freaks. He did tranq her the first time, but in my brilliance, the second time I put ear plugs in her ears and she was completely relaxed, without tranq! Just stood in her stall.:yes:

[tuckawayfarm]

Not for palpations or AI. Most of my mares stand quietly in the aisle and we occasionally use the stall doorway. A stack of hay or shavings bales can offer some protection too.

We do use xylazine if a caslicks is needed.

[SmartAlex]

My mare seems to look forward to the palpations. My vet even brought an assistant in training to open her Caslick because she is so good about everything.

Anyone needing a free lease recip mare? She's looking for a job this year. :D

[Dalemma]

Depends on the mare.....my mare that foaled out 5 years ago was a dream.....no stocks.....no sedation needed for anything and the mare ended up with an infection and had to be flushed numerous times...no sedation........also stitched her up no sedations but did have a local freezing.

My other mare on the other hand was in stocks and needed to be sedated for the first palpation.....but she was fine on the second but was also in stocks......she can be a bit of a kicker so I wouldn't want to palpate this mare with out stocks unless she was sedated.

So I really think it depends on the mare....it also comes down to how comfortable your vet is with your horse.

Dalemma

[alliekat]

So far we haven't had to use anything on our mares. In fact our "Seasoned Pro" seems to "know her role". I am thankful as I hate to use sedation if it is not necessary. I also am lucky that my repro vet is maybe 5'1 and tiny so I am sure that helps a bit as well.LOL

[rideagoldenpony]

All of our mares, even the one that came to us *extremely wild* and with many issues, will stand for AI and ultrasounds with no sedation. We do use stocks, which are the handiest thing we've ever built on the farm IMO. However, for the vast majority of our mares, they would stand politely without them.

I recall sedating twice for ultrasounds, and only once for an AI on a visiting mare who would go ballistic any time you touched under her tail. That was a little nerve wracking!!

[DownYonder]

I had a mare that was sedated for her maiden exam, but after that, neither he nor his partner vet needed to sedate her. He had long, thin arms and spent a lot of time talking to her and getting her relaxed. The partner vet was a female, also with slender arms.

When the mare went to a breeding farm for foaling out and rebreeding, the repro vet there was a big country boy, with big hands and wrists and meaty arms. The mare REALLY objected to being palped by this vet, and they had to tranq her every time.

[showjumpers66]

It depends on the mare. We have very few that object to the palpation itself but rather to being separated from the herd. We may lightly sedate if the mare is stressing about the situation.

[risingstarfarm]

I have stocks, so have never needed to sedate any of the girls for repro. work. I was told that one of my new mares didn't like stocks and had to be sedated for all work, but we found that if we stood her in the barn aisle, she would let us palpate her without any fuss at all.

Before I got the stocks, we used to put the mares in the stalls and open the top door. The vet could access the mare with the bottom door as a barrier.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I didn't realize it was so common to have AI done at your own farm. Interesting.

I've done everything at the vet clinc (so do the breeders that I know around here, even ones who breed lots of mares). The clinic uses stocks for all mares. No tranq, chain, twitch, etc. needed for my gal.

If I was a vet I would want stocks!

If I ever have my own farm, whether I'm breeding or not, some type of stocks would be nice. I realized last week you don't need them until you REALLY need them--*sigh*

[Coppers mom]

So far we haven't had to use anything on our mares. In fact our "Seasoned Pro" seems to "know her role". I am thankful as I hate to use sedation if it is not necessary. I also am lucky that my repro vet is maybe 5'1 and tiny so I am sure that helps a bit as well.LOL

Ours is tiny too, and I do think it helps a lot.

Or at least I thought, until we pulled up with big huge Fertile Myrtle. The girl was a smidgen over 17 hands as a 4 year old, and our vet swears she gets bigger every time she has to work with her :lol:

[VirginiaBred]

So far, none of ours have needed sedation for either.

[Dutch]

My mare seems to look forward to the palpations. :D

I have one of those mares too! She is never tranq'd. My younger mares are tranq'd (1/2 dose) to take the edge off.
We will usually try first without, unless it is a maiden mare.

[classicsporthorses]

I have one who we sedate, she's a big 18 hand Irish mare and came to us with that warning to sedate. The others stand quietly with me at their head. My vet got seriously injured-fractured elbow/arm, from a mare, not mine, who was in stocks and my vet was up to her "arm pit" in her and the mare, in a millisecond, threw herself down in the stocks.

Nearly ended my vet's career.

I did have one mare, whom we sadly had to put down for other reasons, whom we had to sedate slightly for the vet to examine her foal. She was fine with me but no one else.

[Zydeco Sport Horses]

Another small farm here without stocks--we too use the 'butt in the stall door' method. My vet is very patient and approaches even the maidens without sedation but will add if they react negatively and need it--none have to this point, but I'm sure there will be a first time.

I have one of those 'hussey type' mares! :D She stands with a cotton lead and tries to give a hug and get real familiar with whoever is holding the end of it. :yes: The vet laughs because I'll call the clinic and say that the mare 'has the look in her eye'--his reply--'must be time to order semen'. That girl has been worth her weight in gold to me--and she's s woman of substance! :cool: :lol:

[JoZ]

I have one who we sedate, she's a big 18 hand Irish mare and came to us with that warning to sedate. The others stand quietly with me at their head. My vet got seriously injured-fractured elbow/arm, from a mare, not mine, who was in stocks and my vet was up to her "arm pit" in her and the mare, in a millisecond, threw herself down in the stocks.

Nearly ended my vet's career.


Sigh. After my vet tried to sedate my mare, and found that she got WILDER and MORE VIOLENT under sedation, I asked about stocks. Having seen the sedated (as it were) behavior of the mare, my vet mentioned the above possibility and said she would not be trying to work with the mare unsedated, stocks or not. Can't say as I blame her. I would like to try another vet though, with full disclosure but without history. I know it might make logical sense to say "if she's this bad sedated, imagine her without sedation" but I don't think that is necessarily the case. I have never seen her as bad when she is drugfree.

She has had a foal -- it was when we attempted to do a preg check ultrasound that we found out about the sedation issue. Scary to proceed through a pregnancy without having ultrasounded, don't want to do it again. My friend's mare aborted twins and she HAD been ultrasounded... :(

Another question -- the stocks that someone linked to said they are just 30" wide so the horse can't go down. Myth? Can they/do they go down nonetheless?

[Equine Reproduction]

P.S. If you have/use stocks and can link to the type you have, that would be most helpful. TIA!

http://www.horsestocks.com/vet.htm

Absolutely LOVE these stocks. We've worked with a variety of types and styles and the nice thing about these is that they literally knock down or swing out on ALL FOUR sides if anything goes wrong. The photo was taken when first put in at our barn so everything was under construction (to say the least), but they truly are so incredibly safe - no sharp angles, nothing to get caught on, everything rounded.

We generally will not sedate unless there is an absolute risk for the mare and/or the palpator...usually just going slowly and quietly is sufficient, but every now and then, a mare will take exception. A couple things that we "do" to try prevent the badly broken arm is to make sure that the back door of the stocks is low enough that literally you have time to pull your arm out and that the mare is pushed all the way back against the back door so that she does not have room to pull that foot up and get it over the back door should she decide to kick.

While there is always a risk of the mare dropping suddenly and breaking your arm, I've had WAYYYYYyyyy more mares fire off at me in a kick than have ever threatened to sit down on my arm. Given the choice, I'll take my chances with stocks. Hands down. ;)

Hope that helps!

[Equine Reproduction]

Sigh. After my vet tried to sedate my mare, and found that she got WILDER and MORE VIOLENT under sedation, I asked about stocks.

I'd want to know what kind of sedation was used. There are a variety of drugs and it may have just been the particular sedative used.

Another question -- the stocks that someone linked to said they are just 30" wide so the horse can't go down. Myth? Can they/do they go down nonetheless?

Definitely a myth. If they can get into the stocks, if they decide to lay down, I can assure you they will. NOT fun, which is one of the reasons we like the stocks that all sides can swing out or drop down if a horse decides to go over the top of the bar.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine-Reproduction.com, LLC
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Ibex]

My trainer's old broodie would back her butt up the stall door whenever the vet truck pulled in. Apparently she was quite willing to be examined without anything... :cool:

[Fairview Horse Center]

Palpating is one of those things that 95% of the time depends on the skill and technique of the palpator. One of the vets we used a LOT for about 5 years, I don't believe I ever saw her sedate a mare. We did lots of visiting maidens too, just standing in the aisle, with at most a chain over their nose. Other vets - same horse, needed sedation.

Backing up to the stall door also works well provided you have a good handler/holder on the mare that can keep them in a good position. This works best if a stall door is along a wall, and the horse can be kept right against the wall. Which side the wall is needed on depends on if the palpator is right or left handed as you want the vet's body arond the corner.

I would be careful with xylazine, although it is my general sedation of choice. They do tend to kick sometimes with xylazine/Rompun.

[rideagoldenpony]

If I ever have my own farm, whether I'm breeding or not, some type of stocks would be nice. I realized last week you don't need them until you REALLY need them--*sigh*

We LOVE our stocks. We use them for bathing, because they can't swing off of the rubber mats and get their socks dirty. I pull manes with them in them, because I stand on my stool, and they can't swing away or move too much. Handiest thing on the farm.

[horsetales]

None of mine have ever needed anything. I just back them out the stall door with the rear in the aisle. Even one of my Irish maidens (including maiden palping) was used as a teacher for a new vet that was accompanying my repro vet. She could have cared less that she was "elbow deep" for an extended period.

[alexandra]

WOW - I do not know how often I watched different vets examine (palpate, ultrasoound) and inseminate mares, but I have NEVER seen anyone sedate a mare, even not the really nervous ones. Maybe we are just different over here and I would tell any vet something if he/she would tell me to sedate one of my mares to palpate her. (I would explain the vet, where to find the door out of the barn)

Different set ups I have seen though:
One vet uses a stock (i hope I translate it correctly to german - like a very tight box stall were the mare can not really move in ?)

One vet does the mares in their normal box stall, but uses a rope that goes from one hindleg to the neck. It is fixed around the neck, so that the foot can not kick out.

I have also seen a vet put 2 strawbales behind the mare.

And I know quite a few vets who do not use anything but just enter the mare's boxstall, shake hands with the mare as someone said above (hehehe one uses foot in the trough) and just get started.

I guess it is like everything with horses. If you always treat them in a very selfconfident way and with good education, there is nothing to worry about. But when an owner and a vet are already getting started in a way that signals in all direction Ouuuuuh we are afraid, we are doing something very special than for sure any mare reacts nervous and strange !

[Summerwood]

I only have two mares but neither has to be sedated for either. One mare is a bit more nervous and gets tense but still no drugs for her. My vet does have a large arm and I have ponies so he gives the a shot of buscopan before to relax their muscles. His associates are women and they do not use the shot because their arms are small enough. My oldest mare has had 11 babies and doesn't even need to be sedated to do a caslick. She is an absolute saint about everything and is one of the most patient creatures I have ever been around!! The younger mare isn't crazy about men so I think that is part of her being tense anyways. I wish I had stocks but we simply don't do enough breeding to warrant buying them. I love the idea of bathing them, etc in them Rideagoldenpony! That would be useful. When I first got the younger mare I think I remember him using a straw bale or two until he knew she was ok.

[Amoroso]

We use the stocks for all breeding exams, AI work, ultrasounds etc... Generally we do not have to sedate anyone, the girls are all very good about being in the stocks with the exception of one dutch mare who is just very opinionated about everything. She does not like being in the stocks at all, nor does she appreciate the vet doing anything to her behind thus we do sedate her for most everything breeding related. She is an absolute gem otherwise, just doesn't like the stocks for some reason.

[Home Again Farm]

I have occasionally lightly sedated a maiden on her first palpation. Generally, we just back them up to a stall door and they are very well behaved about the whole thing. When they go to the clinic, the vet has stocks.

[K~2]

We don't have stocks, and use the back the mare's butt to the door of the stall. We have never sedated, but our vet likes a lip chain and a front leg lifted.

[Equine Reproduction]

WOW - I do not know how often I watched different vets examine (palpate, ultrasoound) and inseminate mares, but I have NEVER seen anyone sedate a mare, even not the really nervous ones. Maybe we are just different over here and I would tell any vet something if he/she would tell me to sedate one of my mares to palpate her. (I would explain the vet, where to find the door out of the barn)

There are multiple ways to get the job done and using bales behind the mare, the back end of a two horse trailer, etc., are all workable. However, I will say that I've seen some mares that I don't CARE what you have, even good solid stocks, I wouldn't touch them without sedation - they are just that reactive. And, quite honestly, if someone insisted that we deal with a mare like that WITHOUT sedation, we would quite happily find the door out of the barn <smile>. It "is" our livelihood and when push comes to shove, I'm not willing to risk major injury because someone doesn't wish their mare to be sedated. If one if us is badly injured due to a mare that is nasty, kicky or recalcitrant, we have no other income. Flat out just not worth the risk. Having had hooves go "winging" by one's head just is NOT a good feeling. 99% of the time we don't need to use sedation, but that minute number of mares that need it, REALLY need it. And ultimately, you must consider the mare as well. If she's scared and ansy and bouncing around, there is definitely a higher risk of a rectal tear.

[Signature]

[QUOTE= The vet laughs because I'll call the clinic and say that the mare 'has the look in her eye'--his reply--'must be time to order semen'. That girl has been worth her weight in gold to me--and she's s woman of substance! :cool: :lol:[/QUOTE]

That is SO funny, because we do the same thing. We say "she looks dreamy, you need to come check her". :lol: :winkgrin:

[EquusMagnificus]

I don't use tranquilizer either... just a chain over their nose should they decide to go for a walk and drag me with them! :winkgrin:

I typically use a narrower area of the aisle or a doorway just so the mare doesn't move around too much, but so far so good, none of the mares I have had have caused me any issues whatsoever... knock on wood!

[Stacie]

Beware of vets that "always" sedate

My mare is an angel for palpation but one vet used to hurt her so badly that we had to sedate for that vet. I stopped using that vet (small woman, small arms, I can only imagine what she was doing in there) because she caused my mare so much pain.

I've often wondered whether a vet that hurts the horse so much has a higher risk of tearing the rectum.

[alexandra]

Well - Kathy I guess that I would not want to breed a mare that you discribe at all and would no vet or other person expect to cope with something like that. If they do not even cope with a regular palpation how do the behave otherwise ?

If a mare really behaves as you describe I can understand but from the previous posts here it seemed to me that the posters whose vets do not care about the individual and say sedate. And this is something I can not understand and would not want to have done.

[Fairview Horse Center]

We have had the occasional mare that needs sedation, but they are good as gold for anything else. I would not use a vet that routinely sedated, but it IS their life they are risking.

[Dalemma]

Beware of vets that "always" sedate

My mare is an angel for palpation but one vet used to hurt her so badly that we had to sedate for that vet. I stopped using that vet (small woman, small arms, I can only imagine what she was doing in there) because she caused my mare so much pain.

I've often wondered whether a vet that hurts the horse so much has a higher risk of tearing the rectum.

I would think so...........but a very tense mare is also at risk for a tear as well.......hence why some vets sedate routinely. I'm lucky.......my vet only sedates as needed.

DAlemma

[Laurierace]

My mare is clearly not the norm as any of you who were watching the other night can attest to. One of my favorite Jess stories is when we ultrasound for pregnancy I ground tie her so I can see the screen too. That said I am all for better living through chemistry. If the mare needs a little help to relax, what's the harm? I wouldn't have minded a xanax before I reached in there up to my elbow the other night!

[ise@ssl]

We always sedate maiden mares - especially the pony mares. I see no reason to risk them having a tense and unpleasant first experience. Most mares of any size aren't that hard to vaginally palpate if they are teasing - it's the rectal examination that most have issues with and it's the one that has the highest risk.

Most of our mares who have had foals are fine to palpate without sedation - but one very tall mare does still get sedated for the rectals. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

And my Vet is very experienced - over 40 years in the breeding business and I don't want to have anything happen to him!!

I've thought about stocks but not sure we have a good place to install one. I also know it's not a guarantee of nothing happening.

I feel it's really up to the mare owner and attending Vet and I would never second guess a decision to use sedation. I'm not there - it's not my call.

And correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was against professional practice to palpate a mare without another person in attendance. I'm sure individual mare owners can do what they want on their own hroses but it was always my understanding that Vets are not supposed to be doing it. This may relate to their insurance.

[Equine Reproduction]

Well - Kathy I guess that I would not want to breed a mare that you discribe at all and would no vet or other person expect to cope with something like that. If they do not even cope with a regular palpation how do the behave otherwise ?

I think that your question really does cover it. Often it isn't necessarily the mare that is the problem, but the handler or the way the mare has been trained/treated. Some of the mares we "do" get in have had very little handling :( and consequently are just NOT mad keen to have someone messing around the back end. But, it "is" a judgment call. We don't sedate very often because we generally can work through things. Maiden mares we just go very slowly with and take our time. We're also big advocates of having a bucket of grain at the front with the mare so she actually looks forward to going into the stocks. But every now and then, some of the mares we get to deal with are NOT pleasant! Not necessarily anything to do with the temperament of the mare, just more of a handling issue.

[pintopiaffe]

I've never had to sedate a mare. I've twitched... one.

The rest have been fine.

When I finally decided to do my own AI, I needed something to really keep them steady, as I'm alone. I loaded them in the trailer, hay and grain in front of 'em, and in I went. ;)

Actually, even the virgin mare didn't mind AI one bit, and I"m pretty sure the medicine hat mare fell in love with me that day... :uhoh: :lol: The rectal palps, 'eh. Not so much, but that's the vet doing it, not me. Still, sometimes they want to bite the chain or the shank, (or my jacket, but I offer them the rope) but that's the worst of it...

I absolutely will do anything I can to avoid ANY kind of sedation, most especially in the first 90 days, but for all of pregnancy too... sometimes you absolutely have to... but those first few days are SO CRUCIAL in cell splitting and differentiation... I sure don't want any sort of chemicals introduced. Nothing... I even avoid chemical fly sprays if I can!

[ise@ssl]

Pintopiaffe - I've never read or heard of any sedation affecting a mares pregnancy. If you have some information on this - I'd love to see it. This will be my 25th year breeding and while we only sedate mares occasionally to breed them - we've never had any issues.

[Slewdledo]

We palp and ultrasound lots and lots of mares every year and we only have to sedate a few and most of those were maidens. (This is since we stopped using the big-all-around vet who sedated just about everybody because they strained against him. The sedation really padded that vet bill.)