Marketing help!

[arabs4sprt]

First, this is NOT an advertisement! I'm trying to get help. I have two lovely 3 year old Oldenburgs fillies 15 hands tall (so yeah they're small, yes I know that limits their market I can't make them any bigger, but they really have got beautiful movement and temperaments), and I have been trying and trying to market her, and yes I KNOW it's a bad market. I've been marketing them locally, regionally, and nationally, I've used the Internet, I've used magazines, I've used breed publications, I've used local club publications. People said for me to show them. So ok, I spent $1000 that I did not have, showed one of them at the Scottsdale Arabian Show which is one of the biggest most prestigious shows in the country, and WON CHAMPION Half-Arabian Sport Horse Mare, as well as Champion Half-Arab SH 3 year old Filly. I'm sure one problem is that I'm located in Arizona, lousy economy, low paid jobs, not much of a horse market even for QHs right now. I'm negotiable on my price within reason and I'm not asking a whole hell of a lot, everyone that has asked about them and people I've consulted have said my prices are reasonable (maybe too reasonable, maybe not reasonable enough for this market? If so what price is?). I don't have any money to put them in training at the moment (I'm a grad student), but my impression is that even if I did it wouldn't do any good, the trainers don't have buyers for trained horses either. If training was the only problem I'd at least have people calling to ask about them, however that is not the case, no one is calling, no offers that include training have been made, no buyers, no anybody. My question is is there anything else I can do that won't cost me an arm and a leg as far as marketing these terrific (albeit small) horses? I've tried Dreamhorse, some national magazines, various free horse classified sites, some breed registry Internet sites, my local and state dressage club newsletters, the newspaper. What the hell do you have to do to sell a good horse these days? I'm not ready to sleep with someone yet, and in any case I'm not sure that would get me a sale! Give me some ideas?

Tracy Scheinkman
arabs4sprt@aol.com

[arabs4sprt]

First, this is NOT an advertisement! I'm trying to get help. I have two lovely 3 year old Oldenburgs fillies 15 hands tall (so yeah they're small, yes I know that limits their market I can't make them any bigger, but they really have got beautiful movement and temperaments), and I have been trying and trying to market her, and yes I KNOW it's a bad market. I've been marketing them locally, regionally, and nationally, I've used the Internet, I've used magazines, I've used breed publications, I've used local club publications. People said for me to show them. So ok, I spent $1000 that I did not have, showed one of them at the Scottsdale Arabian Show which is one of the biggest most prestigious shows in the country, and WON CHAMPION Half-Arabian Sport Horse Mare, as well as Champion Half-Arab SH 3 year old Filly. I'm sure one problem is that I'm located in Arizona, lousy economy, low paid jobs, not much of a horse market even for QHs right now. I'm negotiable on my price within reason and I'm not asking a whole hell of a lot, everyone that has asked about them and people I've consulted have said my prices are reasonable (maybe too reasonable, maybe not reasonable enough for this market? If so what price is?). I don't have any money to put them in training at the moment (I'm a grad student), but my impression is that even if I did it wouldn't do any good, the trainers don't have buyers for trained horses either. If training was the only problem I'd at least have people calling to ask about them, however that is not the case, no one is calling, no offers that include training have been made, no buyers, no anybody. My question is is there anything else I can do that won't cost me an arm and a leg as far as marketing these terrific (albeit small) horses? I've tried Dreamhorse, some national magazines, various free horse classified sites, some breed registry Internet sites, my local and state dressage club newsletters, the newspaper. What the hell do you have to do to sell a good horse these days? I'm not ready to sleep with someone yet, and in any case I'm not sure that would get me a sale! Give me some ideas?

Tracy Scheinkman
arabs4sprt@aol.com

[Astraled]

I'd get them broke and soon. Is there some reason you can't do it yourself? I broke my little arab-x last May with my mom (bless her http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) acting as a ground person and I'm hardly a great rider. You're doing everything else you can, IMO. The longer they go unstarted, the worse it is going to look. Sorry you are having such a terrible time.http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[arabs4sprt]

Two reasons for waiting to get them broke (besides my lack of financial resources) time and lack of maturity. I didn't want to rush them and I haven't had the time (combination of teaching Biology classes and being a grad student). I am hoping to climb on at least one during winter break. I know they will be easy to break from a temperament standpoint, I broke their mothers and they are terrific. Lack of time has been a great limiting factor for me. As for their growth, they are from slow growing lines on both sides so I figured why rush it? But really, I don't think their lack of under saddle training is the big reason for the lack of interest, at this point I'm not getting ANY calls, much less ones that say "Hi is your horse that is for sale broke to ride?" No calls at all. Surely there is a good market for them somewhere? I think I'm just not hooking in to the right place(s)?
Either that or the economy stinks much worse than the current administration is leading people to believe. I honestly hope it is not that.

[mmaurer]

Hi Tracy,
right now no one wants warmblood arab crosses. I have a weanling he is that cross and priced at $1500..nothing, not even a nibble. I figure I will geld him in the spring and try again then.

I am practically giving away an arab broodmare and still nothing..it is driving me nuts. If the arab/warmblood market IS hot..I sure would love to know where???

[Sportpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Two reasons for waiting to get them broke (besides my lack of financial resources) time and lack of maturity. I didn't want to rush them and I haven't had the time (combination of teaching Biology classes and being a grad student). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I now breed primarily for the sportpony/ small sporthorse market myself now and have had some experience with it the past few years.

First, I do agree with you not starting them until they are at least 3 1/2 ... I don't either ... often not until they are 4 years old but the fact is that they are difficult to market before they are started under saddle.

I will say that I've found the 14.3 to 15.1 hand horses are the most difficult to sell. Once they go over the magic 14.2 hands, they are the toughest to market between 14.2+ and about 15.1 hands. There is a market but it is still difficult to find and it's really hard to find a buyer that will take on something that size that isn't going under saddle. I think part of the problem is that the "professionals" who buy youngsters to start and resell know it is difficult to sell the smaller ones ... and the amateur owners who would actually prefer a smaller horse really aren't capable of starting a horse themselves.

I have heard several people who have bred the Arab/warmblood crosses say that their most active market is the Arab people who are looking for halfbreds for the Arab sporthorse classes ... but again, these are often people who are hoping for more size as well from the crosses.

I'm in Kentucky and find that the best market I have is either east coast or upper midwest so I think that is probably another problem for you ... location. I know I've heard other SW breeders say that their market used to be southern California and that market has decreased substantially the last few years.

I'm not sure what to suggest to you that you haven't already tried. I do know that I've recently sold two young mares out of my breeding program as broodmares, which surprises me ... but there seems to be a growing "sportpony" breeding market and while I don't know how many breeders there are with significant $$ to spend on broodmares, I think there are some. There are some breeders that are importing European sportponies for breeding programs and that isn't cheap. However, I'm not sure that you will find a lot of interest in them as potential broodmares, even though they are approved ISR, at "riding horse" prices.

I think you're doing all the right things. I don't think the market for the smaller horses is as good yet as we'd like it to be ... and I also don't think the economy is as good as the politicians would like you to believe either.

[A. P.]

If you're willing to forego warmblood prices, try marketing them as endurance prospects.

And 3 is not too early to start training them. Lightly, no hard stuff, but definately get them started under saddle. Selling un-backed horses is pretty tough unless they have drop-dead pedigrees and confirmation.

[Carol Ames]

Who,,Whatstallion are they by?

[Dalriada]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you're willing to forego warmblood prices, try marketing them as endurance prospects. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are really down marketing the horse if you head for that market. MOST endurance prospects are unregistered and the price generally paid is well under $3,000.

Best advice is to get them broke and re-advertise. Worked for our 1/2 Hannoverian crosses.

[arabs4sprt]

Carol, they are sired by Mannhattan (Oldenburg). They are out 100% CMK Arabian mares, high percentage Skowronek and *Raffles.

Everybody, this is very productive, I am getting some ideas from your suggestions!

Sportpony, I have advertised them for breeding for sport ponies, I even had one woman look at them as a possible matched driving pair (she decided that their movement was too huntery for her, she's currently driving Morgans). I've come close a few times to selling them, a lady even came down from Canada to look at them. It's just lately I haven't gotten much in the way of responses to my ads.

[Oakstable]

I suspect the Arab market looking for a warmblood cross is looking for a larger horse.

But there are plenty of middle aged women who are short and want a safe, cooperative partner.

You may need to get them going under saddle to find them a home. I'm 5'1" and felt most comfortable on a horse that was 15-15.2 hands.

[Dancing Lawn]

The marekt is the same everywhere: non-existent.
I am so desperate to sell a horse right now, and yet, I can't even get people to come and look. I get countless useless e-mails, make unproductive return long distance calls, people call, and dont' seem to even know what they're looking for.

Very depressing. I hate this business of going broke, and am very seriously considering just throwing in the towel, packing it in, and doing something else, because it just isn't working anymore.

[camohn]

U/S market is definitely better. My 1/2 Arab colt that had the best movement and pesonality finally sold recently and for not as much as I would like. I put his dam up for sale at the same price recently. She is broke to ride but rusty u/s...sold in a week. Does not move as well as the colt either http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.

[Rubs Not Pats]

Tracey, your foals were very nice ours were at the same Keuring as yours. I feel your pain but have no suggestions on where to market with an arab cross other than in arab magazines etc. Most of the people I know won't touch an arab or arab cross (no judgement here, just that for the hunters, that's really not what's going to get the job done). Anyway, I would say you are in a tough spot, they are very small and now going on four and unbroke. Ours were broke at two for flatwork. If they are as small as you say you are eliminating the whole children's market by leaving them unbroke. I wouldn't even consider looking at one for a child that wasn't going around quietly on the flat. Once they are, I think you might be able to advertise for that market and say, quiet kids sportpony. That might make a difference. Then again, it might not.

Another avenue might be the breed registry, contact old/ISR and place a good picture ad on their website, contact the stallion owner and get something on her website and maybe find a trainer to help you. The price of commission may well be worth it to sell them.

Best of luck to you.

Lisa

[jk]

Hi all,

I have to agree with dancing lawn. As much as I love to continue breeding I have to stop ...well at least for a while...
Just sold a lovely colt WBxTB for half the price, but if you have too many horses and you find a good home I guess making a profit comes second.I think it is the economy, people don't have as much $$ to play around with and right now there are more sellers then buyers. People in my area (western Canada) and I bet everywhere else want a ready made jumper, hunter or whatever with show miles for next to nothing.
Wishing you luck and hope all your critters will get sold to great owners!!

[Mahlun]

Hi there,

I have a few suggestions for you,

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Take nice photo's of your girls without the arab halters and in better light so you can see them more clearly. Good confo shots have a horizontal line in the distance, whether it's the horizon or a fence, try not to take them in front of bushes unless you're just doing a head shot.
<LI>The photos of Misty Sierra where she's clipped look better
<LI>Provide more info about Manhattan, he's doing well in the dressage ring, use some of the quotes and photos from his website (if they agree)
<LI>Add video to your website, show the girls w-t-c at liberty and then through the cute. Make sure the video is short (30sec) and to the point with the best possible lighting and footage possible. If necessary include 2 or 3 if you have to instead of one long video (download time)
<LI>Make sure you work with Manhattan's owner and so if she has anyone looking for offspring she can point them in your direction.
<LI>If you get them going w-t-c under saddle you increase your chances of selling them for your asking price (or more)If they are really slow maturers then just put 30-60 days on each and then kick them out.[/list]

Hope that helps...

[Fairview Horse Center]

I don't know how anything about the Arab x market, but if you are trying to sell them in the Warmblood / Sporthorse market, I would pull their manes.

[okggo]

I'd have to agree with getting them started under saddle. I know 3 types of breeders- 1. Breed and never sell a foal b/c they keep them for themselves (that would be me- I don't know how I would be able to part with them) 2. Breed to sell ASAP preferably as weanlings and 3. the breeders that plan to keep the babies until 3, start them, and sell them or perhaps keep in their own program.

That puts you in the #3 catagory to me. So I would say if you want to sell NOW, and can't- take Mahluns advice and put 30 days u/s training into them and see if that helps.

[Oakstable]

Your web site looks too much like a family album.

Re the manes, maybe you could do the Arabian-style of braid so they look more like sporthorses without actually pulling the manes?

The "playing" photos don't do anything for selling a horse with sporthorse potential.

I can refer you to a web designer but he charges $25/hour minimum. E-mail me directly if you want info.

oakstable@aol.com

[Dune]

Also, if you really are that negotiable in the price (you didn't say anything to the contrary when someone brought up the $3000.00 figure, so I don't know) then you really ought to change your asking price. Or, re-contact some of the people that originally contacted you about the fillies and tell them what you'd now accept. Maybe it's a matter of, "Well, gee, I would've bought her at that price!". I agree with what Oakstable said regarding the website, also getting them started would help...and not just, well I sat on them once or twice. Really started: on the longe with side reins, walk trot canter without a loose floppy rein or in a halter. The real deal. Not that you would do that but I just have to say that in my searches I've seen some, uh, interesting things. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Best of luck! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[x]

If they are three, they probably won't sell until they are going under saddle. Doesn't have to be anything too fancy--w/t/c would be good, but even w/t will be a help. Reason: people want to see that the horse will let a rider on them. That will be the #1 marketing ploy to sell them. If they really are to immature to ride at all, then at least get them longing, ground driving, saddled, and if possible, hooked to a cart.
I probably wouldn't put alot of time trying to market to the arab world; you could, but I don't see that the easiest group to market to. I would try to market to the low-level event or to the dressage group...often someone will want a nice smaller prospect in those areas.
And good luck!

[arabs4sprt]

Ok, good suggestions, all of them. As to prices, no $3000 is way to little for them, at their current prices I won't break even, at that low price, well let's just say I'm not willing to take that much of a bath. For reference since I know a lot of you don't do Arabs and Half-Arabs, a Scottsdale Champion should be going for $20,000 minimum, in a better market, her sister should be selling for $15,000. Yes I know that seems like a lot but that's the way it is, or at least used to be. I'm asking a lot less than that but I'm not going to go as low as $3000, that would be giving them away. I've been told by people who have called up that my prices are reasonable. I want to price them at a level from which negotiation can take place but that is not too far out of the realm of possibility. I think I've done that. If you feel my prices are too high then you should comment on that. Maybe buyers don't want you to negotiate any more? Maybe they want a hard price?

I agree, I will get them started under saddle this month (at least as much as my time will allow). However given that I am not getting any phone calls I don't think that will bring buyers to my door. My advertising doesn't go into specifics other than their awards and availability, it is not their lack of training that is keeping buyers from them. It's like either no one is looking for horses at all or I'm not advertising them in the right places? The former seems more likely since I talked to one trainer last week at the AZ State Dressage Championships who said she has 9 for sale and a client has 13 and they aren't getting any calls either. Still there must be some place where people are selling horses? There must be some way to convince buyers to at least come and look?

On the subject of my webpage, you are right, Oakstable, it needs serious updating, better photos, etc. Sorry I haven't got any bucks right now, I'm a grad student, my husband and I aren't buying each other any Christmas gifts this year at all, so unfortunately I can't hire a website designer. Wish I could. Also I can't pay a pro photographer. Anybody want to trade for hand-made all natural soap? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
I'll try to do something about the webpage next week, maybe take out some of the more homey pictures.

Hmm, what else can we do to find buyers? I'm willing to lease with an option? Maybe I should just lease them out for sport pony breeding? In exchange for pro training? I don't know I'm trying to be creative here. They are really super super good tempered horses.

I've tried to find a young rider that might be interested in showing/training them for me, a catch rider perhaps, unfortunately in my area they are either they are thin on the ground or I don't know where to look. There is one woman in Ohio who has said she would consider taking Sierra for training and showing at Arabian Sport Horse Nationals in exchange for half-ownership and then we'd split the ultimate sale price (which hopefully would be higher than I'm asking now). But I don't know her which makes me nervous and I don't know how well these kind of deals work out, or don't?

[Tiki]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However given that I am not getting any phone calls I don't think that will bring buyers to my door. My advertising doesn't go into specifics other than their awards and availability, it is not their lack of training that is keeping buyers from them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you get some good conformation shots of horse - without handler - get them under saddle and show some GOOD under saddle shots of at least walk and trot, and maybe a couple of 30 second video clips loaded on your website of them under saddle in a nice dressage trot, you may be surprised at the change in marketability. Also take off the homey shots and the horses playing shots. Very, very good conformation shots, very nice head shots, and under saddle shots, preferably with a short video clip on the site will prove to be much, much more effective in selling horses. Not too many people want a 3 year old not under saddle, and its much harder now to sell weanlings to 3 year olds. Under saddle horses are still selling well. I don't think it's that people aren't calling to ask if they're under saddle, I think, rather, that it's pretty clear from your site that they are NOT under saddle.

[Astraled]

Download Arachnophilia (http://www.arachnoid.com/arachnophilia/). Easiest HTML editor ever. You can learn to use it quickly and it produces a much nicer page than the AOL software.

[camohn]

As stated, at this age u/s is the biggie. Find a friend with a digital camera and take lots of shots. It's easy to throw away tons with a click of a button to get a couple really good ones. ANd you might be stuck til spring. BY then they will be u/s and the market really slows down in the winter.....at least here where it is cold and snowy. Now in FL it's the opposite and the season is starting! I have a friend in Palm Beach area w/ a couple she is trying to sell and waiting for her snowbird market to fly South http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[Irish Momma]

Some great suggestions as to helping tip the scales a little for you - but IMO the harsh market realities are difficult to address but without seeming callous Ive gone through the same thought process and have come up with these conclusions
* when you bred these foals what market did you have in mind to sell them into? Has that changed?
* The Sport Horse market is choked and buyers have their pick of sport horses that already have mileage, at not a lot more than your asking price.
* Your 3 yr olds are on the small side for Sport horses and most buyers seem to be looking for 16 hands plus.
* There is a bias out there against Arabs- its pretty ingrained in hunter jumperland..

I sympathise with you as a fellow breeder but the market dictates- so I can only suggest you either
-hunker down for the winter and put a bit more training into them
or
Significantly Drop your price.
Good Luck

[Oakstable]

A horse is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. It's one of the hardest realities of the business. My husband always argues with me over pricing horses, the horse "should" be worth XX.

I once sold two fillies by Boliver, a Dutch stallion who had been recently approved and was very hot at the time. They were lovely bay girls out of a nice TB mare. I took $7500 for both simply because I needed the cash flow and I thought they were going into a good situation. The buyer resold them, and I have no idea where they went. He had good contacts so they probably ended up in competition hands.

I would not give up on these two girls, there are some good suggestions in this thread. But there comes a point that a breeder can be throwing good money after bad. Some training is good, but the buyer will always want more training once you get into that quick sand.

Since most people in this forum are breeders themselves, you are among friends.

I would redo the web site, not just delete the homey photos. You need to address what the Arab genes bring to the sporthorse pool. Maybe write a FAQ about your mares which would get into their sire, their Polish bloodlines, which are compatible with WB breeding, their evaluations and the one mare's prestigious win at Scottsdale.

You can also get a list of Arabian stallions whose owners are addressing the sporthorse market. Maybe they would be interested in buying your mare with the Scottsdale win.

Good luck.
Sally

[M.K.Smith]

arabs4sprt-- on a little different topic, I have a 2004 1/2 Arab colt with Crabbet bloodlines and I absolutely love him! He's smart and sensitive and what a mover! Winston also seems to trust me a lot...when he gets scared or Amber starts chasing him and he doesn't want to play, he'll run to be for protection. I just wondered what attributes you felt the Crabbet breeding brought to your program. Everybody I know that has Crabbet bred horses absolutely loves them.

MKB...

[Kyzteke]

http://www.shutterfly.com/view/picture_dt.jsp?state=67b0de21b67c62aff4ed&idx=0

Tracey -- I can certainly understand your frustration. Everyone keeps saying how hot the 1/2 Arab 1/2 WB market is, but I can't figure out what they are basing that opinion on. Maybe on the large numbers of entries in the first AHA Sporthorse Championship? All I know is there are Arab/WB crosses EVERYWHERE and most don't seem to be moving. Personally, I won't breed anymore 50/50 crosses.

I have one (see link) -- she is by Werigo (Dutch WB, HOY Grand Prix dressage horse) o/o my triple-bred Bask+++ Arab mare. The link is a photo of her taken last year at about 26-27 mos. She is also going to be on the smaller side...I'm guessing she will finish at 15.2hh...MAYBE 15.3hh. I have her priced at $4500, and although I've gotten afew calls for videos, no one has come to see her yet.

Interestingly, because her legs & feet are so great, and she has a 1/2 sibling (same dam) who is doing well in endurance, two seasoned endurance riders AND my farrier have suggested I post her on the AERC site as a "heavy weight" prospect. Most endurance horses ARE registered, but until they get some training miles on them, they are priced lower.

I think the best advice is what others have said -- get your girls started u/s. W/T isn't going to hurt them a bit. I'll be starting my gal this spring if she doesn't sell...and I may just go ahead and breed her, keep her u/s and then she will be four, taller and pretty well broke. I will breed her to a WB, as the Arab farther back IS well regarded. I was thinking of Fuerst Gottard, as he is known to ALWAYS throw height.

At some point you do have to decide if you should just take a loss or keep throwing money down the rathole, so to speak. You can't MAKE people buy them, and the market is so soft right now. Wish I could be more help. But to give you an idea, I was talking with a breeder in So.Cal today who has a 6 yr. old PB 15.2hh Arab mare for sale -- 1 year u/s, comes with a free breeding to her WB or Arab stallion -- $6500. SHE is getting calls. You just have to adjust yourself to the reality of the market or be willing to sit on them till the market changes.

Good luck!

[arabs4sprt]

MKB, you ask a question I could go on about for hours! The Crabbets (also sometimes referred to as CMK Arabians) are the classic Arabians, the ones you see in all the old paintings. They are small, compact, muscular, with big feet, big bone, big butts, sound limbs, and most of all sound brains. They are the Arab horses of choice if you want to herd cows, jump jumps, do dressage, or babysit a child rider. You want a horse with brains and a body to go with it you get one of these. Their soundness and endurance are what make them the horses of choice for most endurance riders -- at least those that are willing to spend the money. They don't make good Arab showring horses because they are in general calmer and more easy-going and because they don't put up with abuse.

The level of trust that you mention in your colt is what I see in mine as well, my oldest mare would do anything I asked her to do, anything. I'm not saying that if I asked her to jump a cliff she wouldn't hesitate before doing it, but if I insisted she would give it a try, for me. I was once galloping flat out in a dry river bed when one of my reins broke, I slowed her down with one rein, reched forward grabbed side piece of the bridle with my other hand, stopped, got off, reattached the rein, got on and off we went again. I did one memorable dressage test in an arena with a metal roof when a hail storm opened up on top of it. Think of hail so loud that you could not hear yourself yelling. I'm not saying it was pretty but this horse that was so scared, that wanted to bolt, stayed with me, stayed in the arena (the arena was open to the desert on one side so she could have left the county if she wanted to), completed the test, and then we (kind of) walked out. At the same show another dressage rider got dumped by her horse from a dust devil and got a concussion, the horse did bolt for the desert and it took a half hour to chase it down. To trust the rider when every instinct says to run, that's trust.

But that's not what the inspector saw when he looked at our mares. The inspector saw horses with excellent qualities of conformation and movement that he wanted for his registry. Four out of 4 of the mares of our breeding have been accepted, 3 out of 3 foals have been Premiums. They have that long sweeping powerful movement that is so desirable for sport horses. But what gets me the most is that so many many buyers of warmbloods complain of soundness issues, they buy foals with OCD, or with early DJD, the horses they buy later turn out to be unsound before they are broke. Mine are sound, really sound, they have never shown ANY signs of epiphysitis while they were growing, not one bit. One warmblood breeder told me that all warmblood foals get that, no big deal, they just do. Mine didn't. They run over hard Arizona ground, day after day, and yet they are sound. But not one of the terribly disappointed buyers of unsound youngsters has thought of what the inspectors took into account when they allowed Arabs in to warmblood lines -- the soundness that they have and pass on to their offspring. The feet of iron, that unlike many TBs don't need special treatment to maintain, the legs that just keep going and going and going. Isn't that worth something?

What else? They have a willingness, a wanting to please, a playfulness, bravery. One friend of mine (a long time ago) taught one my Arab mares to jump. She has a beautiful 16.3 hand TB marem the mare is beautiful but chicken she'll spook at any jump she hasn't been carefully introduced to. My friend was so pleased with my little 14.1 hand mare, the one that would jump anything put in front of her. She said that my mare was "brave", when I asked what she meant she said that she doesn't refuse. Oh yeah also I love their curiosity. Throw a big scary white plastic bag into a turnout with them and sure enough they're all over it, stomping on it, picking it up, shaking it, chasing each other with it their mouths.

Now as to the reason I bred my Oldenburg/Arabs (and you should know that they are Oldenburgs, not just Half-Arabs), I did it because I realized that many people were riding horses that were too big for them, they needed a handier horse, but they didn't necessarily need an Arab. Arabs often require a rider that is as sensitive as they are, as understanding of what they are feeling as they are. Many people can't do that. What these people needed was the ideal blend of Arab and Oldenburg. Something that is a little less sensitive but sensitive enough, not so phlegmatic as some warmbloods, and not so TBy as others. Also the one thing that Arabs don't have, and I freely admit it, is they don't have the rhythm of the warmblood. That metronome in the belly that warmbloods have, Arabs don't. Arabs can change direction without loss of speed, but they can't keep the rhythm unless you count it for them. But the Arab/warmbloods can! You get the best of each breed. The soundness, sweetness, endurance, and other characteristics of the Arab, and the rhythm, strength, and rocksteadiness of the warmblood. One other thing, I live in the desert, it gets damn hot here for too damn long. One thing I see way too much of are warmbloods pooping out before the end of a test, or a jumping round, or a cross country course. The endurance of the Arab and in particular these Crabbets, means that you have some juice in your horse's engine, you've got some gas left, when you need to ask that horse for another round or another test, the horse with the Arab close up has got you covered. They'll keep going like the Everready bunny.

[M.K.Smith]

arabs4sprt, Thank you! I love to soak up everything I can about the Crabbet bloodlines because I don't know a whole lot and I love learning more and I'm so very happy with my colt. It seems like again and again when people talk about Crabbets I hear--great disposition, good minds, good sound horses. That's what I like to hear!

Here's a pic of Winston trotting. (http://www.leakycreek.com/modules.php?set_albumName=sa_winston&id=Winston_trot&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php) His dam is the bay mare in the background.

Here's a conformation type shot. (http://www.leakycreek.com/modules.php?set_albumName=sa_winston&id=Winston_conformation&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php) I think he was less than a month old in this shot...he's all bay in this shot and now he's turning grey.

Here's a head shot of his sire (RSA Grand Prix) (http://www.leakycreek.com/modules.php?set_albumName=stal_gp_tacked&id=DSC00132_resize&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php) My trainer shows him western sidesaddle on the Arab circuit, although, I think she may have retired him from showing last year...I think he's a 1983 model if I remember correctly. I had the pleasure of riding him in a lesson a few years ago...I needed to feel what it was like to ride a "real" western horse (I was training my QH mare western (from hunt seat) and couldn't master the feel). My ride on Grand Prix was like driving a cadillac...I had such precision control and responsiveness and it was just an awesome ride.

It's really cool that your mare trusts you the way that Winston does. I'm really hoping that will transfer over when he starts under saddle. We took him to a little show in the beginning of November and I wasn't sure what to expect because he can get too much energy sometimes. I was pleased to discover that from our practicing he knew what he was supposed to do and he was such a well behaved boy! Can you tell, I love my colt http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good luck with your horse sales. I've heard that the Arab market has been pretty rough this year. My trainer and a friend of mine commented about the lack of entries at the East Coast (Arabian) Championships...apparently a lot of clients just weren't spending money to purchase and show horses this year.

I like your breeding program of crossing Arabs and Oldenburgs it sounds like an excellent combination.

MKB...

[camohn]

FWIW on prices: a lady I know with an Arab/WB cross with no WB registry sold her filly with wins on the line at prestigious shows for 7,500. My unshown colt who was just as good sold for a good deal less than that. However, the lady is keeping him intact to breed to her Arab mares for 3/4 Arab foals. Since he went to a good home and gets to stay intact/ she will show him it was worth it to me. (Just wish it was in dressage! He has such lovely gaits. He is actually going to show Western Pleasure.) 1/2 Arabs with the WB papers get a bit more.

[Tiki]

I'm glad your Arab/WB horses are very sound, but I get a little peeved when someone pronounces that ALL WBs get epiphysitis or DJD or OCD!! Most of that - when it does happen - is a lack of education on how to feed and raise WBs. BTW, Standardbreds probably have a higher incidence of OCD than WBs. Any epiphysitis is usually caused by a lack of minerals and/or trace minerals in the diet - starting with the pregnant mare. In foals it can usually be quickly corrected with a mineral drench. Too many people feed their WB babies too much grain and keep them too long in stalls. WBs can be just as sound as any other horse. As people are learning about proper nutrition and exercise - and especially its importance in the growing foal and young horse, many of these 'soundness' problems are going away.

[jumpgirl]

Hi,

I agree that your horses need to get going under saddle if you want to sell them. But even if they are going under saddle, I think your prices are just too high. I work with several warmblood breeders, getting their 3 & 4 year olds backed and into the show ring. We take their fully approved, smallest has been 16hands, w/t/c and jumping 2 foot(if 4yr) courses with simple lead changes into the small local shows starting at $7500 to $15,000 depending on quality. Within a few months, if not sold, they go to their first "A" show and the price only goes up a bit.

It is really only when they get to the point of jumping 2'9" and up and getting most of their lead changes that they start selling at the $20,000 plus and the ones with mileage/wins gets in the 40,50,60K and up.

Could it be that you want the amount of money now for what they would be worth if someone else did the work later? You really have to ask the question of what do green broke horses with your type of breeding go for? If they go for $12,000 and you are asking $10,000 for the unbroke version, you are not giving anyone any room and it isn't worth it for a trainer to break and resell your horses.

[arabs4sprt]

Such pretty babies! Everybody should be proud of them. One of the things I am constantly being asked is why no adult Arab/warmbloods are on the market (or at least very few). The reason is because once someone buys one of these for riding, they fall in love with them and never put them on the market again! For that reason alone you would think there would more of a market for them as young horses.

However the market in horses has truly crashed, not just for these guys. I just got email from a woman I know in Texas, she stands colored QH and Paint stallions. She has just announced that unless she can lease or sell her best Paint stallion by the middle of the month she's going to geld him and sell him for riding. That's how bad it is. In the middle of QH country, in the middle of Paint country and she has to geld a really terrific stallion. His name is Telluride and you can see him at www.goldenacresfarm.com (http://www.goldenacresfarm.com)

[arabs4sprt]

Jumpgirl, I'm asking $10,000 for the one that won the two Championships at Scottsdale, and $7500 for the one that has not yet been shown. Are those prices too high? Both were Premium foals at inspection for Oldenburg N.A., one breeder told me she gets nothing less than $15,000 for her Premium foals. I'm not asking even that.

[arabs4sprt]

P.S. I'm offering to pay for two months of free training for either of them with the trainer of the buyer's choice included in the price! Also I'm offering to pay for the pre-purchase exam if they don't pass (because I know they will).

[Kyzteke]

18 months ago, just as the market was starting to soften up, I sold a coming 4 yr. old Oldenburg gelding by IDEAL o/o an approved TB mare. He had been graded Premium at his inspection, had 60+ days u/s, was 16.1hh,handsome boy, had already been shown once or twice in Intro Dressage Classes with scores of 60%+, showed some talent for jumping (free jumping), and had even had some trail experience.

His price: $12K. I was happy to get it as it seemed a fair price (didn't make a killing, but didn't take a loss either) and the people were great people who treat this guy like he is a member of the family. He's now taking blues consistantly in AA h/j shows in FL.

I think you just have your girls priced too high for the current market. Think of it this way, Tracey: you are doing (it would seem) EVERYTHING else right in terms of advertising. I do agree that I would get some photos of the mares looking more "WB" looking, but other than that you seem to be advertising them in alot of venues. But you are getting NO calls. So that tells you that your prices are too high and/or the market is in the dumpster. We all know that the latter is true, so you come back to the same deal -- if you want to be successful in a bad market, you have to offer consumers a "Better Deal."That may mean lowering your prices. And, unless you've had to board your girls their whole lives or have had expensive vet bills on one of them, you should still be making a modest profit. I would TRY lowering the prices afew thousand on each one, forget offering free training & vet checks and see what happens.

Curious -- if you are willing to pay for training, why don't you just get them started u/s now? There is ALWAYS a better market for started horses.

Once again, good luck.

[CindyGen]

Tracy I think getting them going under saddle is really your best bet. I've found that my foals sell either as cute babies or weanlings or they sell after they are started. Nothing in-between those two stages sell for me. Usually though as soon as they are 30 days undersaddle, the inquiries start coming again. Best thing to do is make the time to get them going undersaddle enough for an ammie to get on and putz around on them. Even when mine have been greener than grass, I've found people much more interested in buying them if they can get on and walk/trot around the arena.

[SportArab]

arabs4sprt,

I do believe most of your problem is size.. I have had a lot of interest in Arab/Warmblood crosses and uniformly people say that they are interested in 16h or larger (these are generally folks wanting to compete on the arab circuit)

I could have sold my three year old Budweiser gelding many times over if I wanted to sell him. He is 16.1 and a flashy chestnut with four high whites.

I would also say that the poeple who contact me are generally looking for a horse that is ready to start under saddle or is started. They are looking for something to take to Arab Sport Horse Nationals.

One of your other issues may be your location. Most of the folks who have contacted me are on the east coast, where sport horse diciplines are very popular.

[arabs4sprt]

As I have said I'll try to get working with them to get them started this month (assuming the time materializes).

To answer Kyzteke, I am a grad student with zero money, no money for Christmas gifts, no money for a trainer, no money for pro photographer. I have zero cash flow, therefore I can't pay for a trainer for them now. However what I thought by including it in the price was that if someone wanted to buy one, then on purchase I would take some of the purchase money and pack the sold horse off to the trainer that the person chooses, pay for the two months training (out the purchase money). The owner would be happy to get some training included, I would be able to then take some of the purchase money and put the unsold horse into training. It was the only way I could see for getting either of them any pro training. Otherwise the only option for training is me and whatever time I can squeeze into it.

I would love to work a deal out with some trainer whereby they take them in training, we sell them and then the trainer gets paid out of the proceeds of the sale. Unfortunately the closest I've been able to come to that are two trainers who would forgo their training fees until sale but would still charge me board at $300/month. Problem is that is about $200 more per month than I pay taking care of them myself on my own property. Therefore it is $200 more than I can afford to spend.

Sportarab, yes the market does seem to be for bigger horses, I could have sold them several times over had they been larger. Unfortunately I can't stretch them, they are the size they are. Tough but true. Now I will say this, I have not used a stick on them, I've just measured them with a tape, and they are barefoot.

[mbamissaz]

We also have a 3 yr old Oldenburg for sale now and are also not getting a lot of response. I was glad to see this thread come up because she is also on the smaller side (15.1 currently) and also not yet started. I started a thread a few months back about whether or not there is a market for the "smaller dressage prospect" and many people responded that there was. I'll have to admit, I haven't seen it yet.

We did end up hiring a professional to do a video and some professional photos(yesterday shown here (http://community.webshots.com/album/224368961VcfKWR)), so we are hoping this will peak the interest of more people...and as many of you already mentioned, breaking her is next on our "To Do" list. I am just not sure if it is the fact that she has not been started or her size or the economy that is effecting the lack of interest.

I feel the frustration of the OP.

[pwynnnorman]

These threads are always so instructive. To me, they represent the very best these BBs have to offer for practical breeder/trainer/riders.

This was a great comment, wonderful insight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Could it be that you want the amount of money now for what they would be worth if someone else did the work later? ...[Y]ou are not giving anyone any room and it isn't worth it for a trainer to break and resell your horses.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think of it this way, perhaps: At that price, you are eliminating the resale markets, and those may be the very markets most likely to be interested in youngsters, regardless of size. I do try to price my young guys for others to be able to resell at a profit without putting years into them. Months, a few shows, that's what is attractive, I think. If that's all it takes for them to profit, it helps a lot, IMO. There jsut aren't enough do-it-yourselfers out there buying to keep (rather than resell) anymore--and those who CAN, don't see any reason to pay so much if they are going to do most of the real work themselves.

[Kyzteke]

Tracy --
Then what you are saying is that you need to sell them NOW! So why not cut the price on at least one of them and get them sold? Every month you are putting more and more money into them...that's a fact. So think of it this way -- the longer you wait to get "X" amount of dollars for them, the more you will be putting into to them, thereby STILL lessening your profit.

I'm just picking numbers here, but lets say it costs you $200 per month for complete care. That adds up.

If you simply don't have more money to pour into them, then you need to start lowering the price. You can't afford to get them started, and meanwhile they keep eating. Hopefully you won't have any "horse events" like big colics or whatever -- but we all know that is ALWAYS a possibility with horses.

The things other people have mentioned that (I agree) might be making your girls slow sells are their size and your location. But you can't make 'em any bigger and you can't move. You don't have the money to put training into them...so what does that leave in terms of solutions? Getting better photos doesn't take a pro...just a helper to handle the horses and the ability to take a TON of photos. You are bound to end up with afew that are useful.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but here's the gamble...and YOU decide: are willing (and able) to stand firm on your price and hopefully get it before you become desperate to sell? Or are you ready to admit that you just need to cut your losses (or minimize your profit...whichever in the case for you) and get the horses sold before they cost you more money?

[jumpgirl]

I am curious to the breeder you reference that says they are selling their premium foals for $15K. All premium foals are not equal. Is the breeder's 15K foals part arab? small in stature? located in AZ? I'm not knocking your horses but a premium foal that is extremely well bred with top international SPORT horse lines that will mature 16.1 hands plus with a color that is attractive (yes, I know) will fetch more than a premium foal that is halfbred and small.

One thing you could do is lease one or both out to a talented teenager whose mom won't buy them a horse but will let them take lessons and board. - get insurance and a liability contract.

[pwynnnorman]

Also, it's pretty hard to confirm actual selling prices. Someone in my area is standing a postively common TB stallion at stud who sold his first foal for x-amount (I don't want to identify them, so won't use the exact figure) and so decided to stand him for well above the average rate (to virtually no mares, I suspect). I don't think she realized that selling a weanling to one of your clients (she teaches) isn't a real indication of value or demand. I'm highly skeptical that many breeders routinely sell five-figured weanlings, except for those with very, very well-established networks of trainers or past clients or investor-client-types (or sugar daddies).

[Dancing Lawn]

Here's my new marketing gimmick:
I am breeding and selling "Hinderburgs".
they are a very old, very rare breed. So rare, in fact, that there is no longer even a registry for them. (much like the French Coach horse, that has disappeared in the last 30 years.)
they are suitable for any discipline, and have an enormous price tag attached to them, simply because they are unique to MY barn. No one else has them. They are so rare, that I have the only breeding pair left in the entire universe.
Excuse me while I go off to design a singular and unique brand for them.
I think a simple dollar sign, on the hindquarters should do it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[SportArab]

Tracey,

I think it would help if your girls were started.. and if you could tap into the market on one of the coasts.

There IS a market even for smaller crosses, but it is a smaller market. And my impression is that disposition is going to be very important, since the folks looking for smaller mounts tend to be middle aged amateur women.

I think your location is hurting you more than anything... will try to think of something creative...

Linda

[arabs4sprt]

Linda, yes I'm stuck in the southeast corner of Arizona and even though we are only 8 hours driving slow from San Diego, for some reason the Californians don't want to cross the desert. So yeah my location is pretty poor. By the way next time you are out in this direction you will have to come stay with us!


MbaMissaz, I feel for you, we're in the same boat. If I get someone looking for a smaller horse but doesn't want any Arab I'll send them your way, just email me your info.


Pwynnnorman, I'm not certain that we HAVE a resale market, at least not in Tucson. What would I have to price them at for that kind of market?


Kyzteke, I hear what you are saying, I should have mentioned earlier that my last two ads in a national Arab magazine did not list a price, I got two calls, one woman wanted a video, I sent it she never called back. I called her, she said she was still interested that her trainer needed to see the video, then never called back. The other was a woman who had an Arab/warmblood for sale who was calling to find out how much I was asking for mine. She seemed disappointed that I was asking only $10,000 for Sierra. She said she was hoping the market would be better. That was two and a half months ago, haven't had my phone ring since. I figured it would start back up again after the election. Nope. By the way I looked back at my expenses, it costs me about $80/month/horse to support them at my place. While that does ad up, I need to get people calling in order to get them sold. What price would you suggest? By the way the mare that came in Reserve Champion at Scottsdale behind Sierra is being advertised for 20K. I'm asking 10K. How much lower do I need to go before I hit the point where buyers start asking "what's wrong with this horse?"


Jumpgirl, the breeder who told me she got nothing less than 15K for her Premium foals is a hunter/jumper trainer in Phoenix. She breeds her mares to Fuerst Gotthard, Pablo, Landskonig and her mares are all TB mares. Sierra, my Champion, was 1st Premium and Champion Foal at the Oldenburg inspection where her Fuerst Gotthard was 2nd Premium, and Sunrise came in 3rd Premium. She said that the last horse she sold was a year or so ago, have things changed that much? I want this trainer to break and train and market my girls but she wants to charge me $300/month board and I just don't have that.

Dancing Lawn, I LOVE IT! Hinderburgs! Maybe that will make them sound bigger than they are!

[Kyzteke]

By the way the mare that came in Reserve Champion at Scottsdale behind Sierra is being advertised for 20K.


You can ADVERTISE a horse for any amount you want, but that doesn't mean you get it. That horse hasn't sold either.


And, as good as your gal's show record is, the problem is #1) it was in an Arab show. If you are trying to sell to the Arab people who want a 1/2 for the AHA Sporthorse classes, that market appears to be slow. AND, as one poster pointed out, those guys still prefer a larger horse. #2 if you are trying to market to the Oldenburg/WB people, the small size of your girls is a drawback. There is nothing you can do about it, but it is probably hurting sales. AND a horse's placing in Scottsdale won't impress those people much. You girls were graded very high in their inspections, but, unfortunatly thats not too important now that they are older.

I think the poster who suggested finding a teen or Pony Clubber to lease them to had a good idea. It think you will find more buyers if you get them started u/s.

As for the breeder getting $15K for their Premium foals...I suspect she's blowing smoke up your a**. Maybe she got $15K for one or two...OR she has been doing this for so long she has a loyal client base.

[Dancing Lawn]

Very easy keepers, Hindenburgs. Almost inflatable, you might say. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[myhorse]

Maybe you need to ask more like over 20.000. You know how some people want it to cost an arm and a leg to think it is worth anything. The market is just not there for the middle horses. You got your 2500.00 and less then your more than I would ever pay market. The middle just seems to be gone.

[mbamissaz]

Arabs4sprt- Will do...and if I find anyone out your way who is looking, I'll direct them to you as well.

I guess I just don't buy the "it's your location" argument that some are making....I've lived in AZ and although the horse market does leave a little to be desired out there, arabs are "big" out there. I am now located in Virginia, arguably one of the best places for horses anywhere, and yet I am still having difficulty selling my mare. I think there may be something to the "you don't have them priced high enough" argument, however. The few inquiries that we have had asked us almost immediately why she was priced "so low" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Tiki]

I, too, think they are priced low for 3 year olds. The big problem I see is that at 3 they are not under saddle. Maybe people are wondering why. The person who said her trainer had to see the video first is a really good example of someone who might jump on them if they were started under saddle. It can be difficult to find someone to start them under saddle, but once there, and you have a person who really likes their looks - BUT their trainer has to see them. If the trainer sees a nice, pretty horse, that is quiet under saddle - even if only walk trot - has something they can work with. There IS a market for smaller horses, even if a smaller market. If started under saddle, and as pretty and nice as they are, they should be more in the $12,000-$15,000 range, but you have to find a way to get off the pot and get them started. THEN, I would resend a video to that same woman -even at the new price - and you might very well get a bite.

[SportArab]

Hey Tracy..

Thanks for the offer... may take you up one day if we make it down to Tucson.

Will you be at the Scottsdale show this year - we will be coming in to watch as we do every year... love to see you again.

With respect to your mares, I suspect that you would have a better chance if you can get them started and maybe even to a show or two under saddle.

Linda

[poshglorib]

My two cents:

Your fillies are small to market to the WB market. A horse of that size needs to be under saddle, and have a proven show record under saddle as the majority of people looking for a smaller WB are going to be children or older women who want a safe sound been there done that kind of horse-and do not want a young horse.

For the AHA market they are over priced. Their size is not so much of a problem, especially as they will probably still grow a little bit, but they need to have more of a show record. Horses in the 1/2 arab market in the $8-10k range have undersaddle points to their show record and are proven performance horses. Also in looking at your horses on the AHA site- the #1 mistake you made is not putting a picture on the site. People looking in that range want a picture- personally I skip right over horses that don't have pictures, it sends a message to me that the seller is either to lazy to take a pic or there is something to hide Also- I find the statement "serious inquires only" a bit off putting, and it may be part of the reason why you aren't getting any inquires. I understand what you are saying- but I personally find it insulting- as if I decide not to buy the horse, then you will judge me as not serious about the horse.
Now would be the time to update both of these on AHA, as Scottsdale is coming up in February and someone could be looking for a horse to show in hand and then train to ride after. Also - local publications- like the B&B would be an excellent place to advertise them.

Plain and simple, you either need to come down on your price, or pay to get them going undersaddle and in shows- either of which is going to make your net profit much lower.
Best of luck.

[pwynnnorman]

Just tossing this out as an idea--don't know if it would make sense for you.

But what about trying to work out a "I have to get $6K for each--pay me when you sell them" kind of arrangement? They have such class, I'd think that perhaps some hungry younger trainer wanting to get noticed might jump on the opportunity--and that would stop the bleeding for you, so-to-speak.

[arabs4sprt]

Pwynnnorman, I'm cool with that idea, the only problem is that none of the trainers I've talked to out here will go for what you have suggested. They all want at least board up front, then they charge for training each month which they hold in abeyance until after the horse is sold (so that adds up every month), and then they want to charge a commission on top of that (one guy even wants a 15% commission on top of all that). If you know of someone responsible, reliable, who will take good care of them 'cause I won't give them to someone who will mistreat them, then let me know. I hesitate to say this but it would have to be somene close enough that I could check up on them regularly to make sure they were happy.

Poshglorib, I used to have a photo up on the AHA website, for over a year, even changed it a couple of times just for some variation. I got a few legitimate contacts, but most (I now realize) were from kids. I've gotten SO TIRED of sending out videos to kids just window shopping. I make every video just for the customer, I ask them via email what views they want to see, I shoot new footage so I can show them as they are now, and I go rummaging through hours of video to find the right old footage to include. It takes me a minimum of 3 to 5 hours of work for each video I send out. Then I never hear from the kid again and I don't get the video back. That's why I say serious inquiries only. I figure if you're serious you won't be offended, if you're just window-shopping I can't afford to lose the time. Good suggestion about updating the AHA website ad for Scottsdale, I will have to do that. Did you see that I ran two ads in the most recent two issues of Arabian Horse magazine? Color photos were in there, I got two calls, both in September, that's all I got from that. Of course they printed my email address wrong both times, but my phone number was correct.

SportArab, yes I'll probably show up at Scottsdale just to watch this time, I can't afford to show a horse unless I can convince a trainer to take one on without charging me in advance ... or even after ... unless we sell a horse.

Mbamissaz, where did you used to live in AZ? The market was better a few years ago. But one problem living in a place where a particular breed is big is that "you are never a prophet in your own home town". As for whether they are priced too high or too low, heck I don't know what to charge for them, I know I've got quite a lot invested in them but I also know that that's not the way you price them. I have looked at what other Arab/warmbloods are going for, and whoever said it before is right, if they are registered as warmbloods they are valued higher than if they are only Half-Arabs, mine seem to be in the middle. Still I don't know what the heck I should do as far as price.

[arabs4sprt]

One idea I had, I think I'll run past you guys, is to see if someone wants to use them for breeding, maybe for sport ponies, and instead of a fee ask them to train them for me and take them to a few shows? Do you think that would work and do you think someone would go for that?

[Oakstable]

I leased out two small imported Trakehner mares to a stallion owner with the understanding that she break out one of them for riding in exchange for getting to use the mares. She never bred the mares and I ended up paying their board for while they were gone cuz she didn't pay it.

A big frigging mess.

It should work but make sure you have a GOOD contract in hand, not a handshake.

[LW]

Well, I don't have any other golden suggestions as to what many other have give you. Sometimes, it is just a lucky strike, and it only take one person....

I have two imported fillis: one a weaning, one coming 2. Same price, different bloodlines. The weaning sold in 2 weeks. The 2 year old, who was champion young horse at breed show (USDF/Cosequin qualifier), is beautiful, super bred, a good mover, easy going....you guessed it! NOTHING!! very few calls.

It can be really frustrating sometims. I too spend a lot of time on videos (a broodmare, that is getting calls, but no takers).

Sorry for rambling, just wanted to symphatize. let a Han/TB go for $3500 this past year I simply HAD to! Now the owner is super, got her started under saddle (I am in the same boat as you).

Wishing you the best of luck!!!

Sincerely Linda
www.walnut-farm.com (http://www.walnut-farm.com)

[mbamissaz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arabs4sprt:
Mbamissaz, where did you used to live in AZ? The market was better a few years ago. But one problem living in a place where a particular breed is big is that "you are never a prophet in your own home town". As for whether they are priced too high or too low, heck I don't know what to charge for them, I know I've got quite a lot invested in them but I also know that that's not the way you price them. I have looked at what other Arab/warmbloods are going for, and whoever said it before is right, if they are registered as warmbloods they are valued higher than if they are only Half-Arabs, mine seem to be in the middle. Still I don't know what the heck I should do as far as price. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I lived in Yuma for almost 3 years prior to moving to VA in 2003. Although Yuma itself was hardly a mecca for the equine enthusiast http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif, we were blessed with having some contacts to trainers in So. CA....so we were not completely isolated, thank goodness http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I would definitely try to get your youngsters under saddle before lowering the price. That is what I plan to do with mine. I believe that is why folks are not calling like I think they should be http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Natural hi]

HI
So you want to sell your horses...
so why are you not using Bill Addis West Sale
this auction house has the largest Arab and Half Arab Sales in North America
and the next one is December 16, 17, 18 in Tucson, Az at the Pima County Fairgrounds
I just received a email about them and thought I would pass it on to you...http://www.addiswest.com/
Good Luck

[Oakstable]

The Arabian auction sounds like a good opportunity. I have a friend who breeds Crabbet bred horses and occasionally a warmblood cross.

That link deserves a thread of its own.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
Sally

[arabs4sprt]

On the Bill Addis Auction --
1) The deadline for registering was in October
2) They want $500 up front plus another $800 if the horse doesn't meet the reserve price. In addition I believe there is a commission charged on top of that. You can put a horse in without reserve but that is too risky, you might sell it for $100.
3) This is the first time that they will have been here, I don't know how successful they will be in this area and this market. If I wasn't supposed to be out of town that weekend (selling soap at a craft fair) I'd go to see how the horses do.
4) I looked at their previous sales information on their website, I may not have understood it but it didn't look to me like they were getting all that much for most horses. A few were going for high dollars but it looked like most were going pretty cheap, and perhaps I misinterpreted what I saw but it looked like about 1/3 to 1/2 were not selling at all.

I know in the local area you are not going to get a lot of people coming out for this auction. Fact is for a horsey place the people here either have horses or can't afford horses. The real market is Phoenix but I don't know that Phoenix people would come down here to Tucson for this thing. The ad I just received from them was heavy on Half-Arabs, most of them from unfamiliar bloodlines. I didn't see any obvious Crabbets in there, can't say there weren't any, but none of the big breeders from this area have horses in the ad.

So my natural skepticism combined with how much money I would have to shell out, I passed.

I would feel better about a good warmblood auction. One where they previewed the horses ahead of time and selected the ones they wanted to present. I also suggested to some local people that we run our own sporthorse presentation, along the lines of an Irish horse sale. Where horses are presented in an arena individually in the morning. After the presentation the buyers can go see the horses close up in pens, try them out, there would be a vet on site for prepurchase exams, and the buyers and sellers could dicker together on prices. When I suggested that I was poo-pooed because our area for being only two hours from Phoenix is nonetheless isolated and has lower wages. I thought it was a good idea ....

[Mariesonny]

If there is a market for the smaller WB or WB cross I haven't found it. Even worse is small mares with the stigma of mares. And if there is a market then everyone expects to pay less because they are small! How many times have I read how delighted someone is with their fabulous smaller horse and they could only get him for that price because he was on the small side! For some people even 16.2 is too small. I had a youngster who stood 17 hands at 2 years old. Yep, he sold, he wasn't too big.
The good thing about your fillies is that they are half arab and can be shown in the arab classes (I'm assuming they are registered as both). People don't expect arabs to be 16.2.
I agree with getting them started. The problem there for you is to weigh how much you might get for them started vs how much it is going to cost you to put that in them. Unfortunately, the market is soft and winter doesn't help.

[Dune]

I think that the distinction that needs to be made here in the "is there a market for smaller horses" debate is this: There are small horses that are just that...small horses...that's all they are ever going to be, cute, lower level all-around potential. (NOT that there is anything wrong with that) Then there are the little dynamos that are truly "big horses", but they are in a smaller package. I'm not pointing fingers here or classifying any of the horses we are posting about, however, the first type of "small horse" has a limited market of kids, smaller adults that are looking for already broke, safe horses. These small horses have a definite, what I call, "price cap". These you are better off just selling at whatever price the market will bear because you are never going to be able to catch up and make a profit. No one is going to buy them for resale unless they are super inexpensive because these horses will be $3500-$10,000 MAX for the rest of their lives. Period. The second kind of small horse that either has FEI dressage talent or is another jumping fool like Touch of Class (or a top small junior hunter), you still may have to take a hit on unless you are willing to get them trained up a bit. It will always be harder to sell them, BUT once that are either jumping a 3' course or doing 2nd level, you should be able to make your $$ back. Once again, though, you are going to have to invest more of your time, effort and perhaps $$ to get them there. Cold, hard facts. Sorry. Now, for those with smaller prospects, it's up to you to decide which kind of small horse you have for sale and market/sell them accordingly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[arabs4sprt]

Definite dynamos!

[exvet2]

While wading or paddling around at Westworld yesterday, I did see three warmblood x Arab crosses that were being shown under saddle; but the NSH and purebred varieties were definitely better represented. Of the warmblood x Arab crosses that I saw, I think the smallest was 15.3 hands. Talking to those at the show, I understand that there were a few more in the sport horse classes the day before; however, none were either old enough or trained far enough along to show under saddle. Jackie Alkin was riding one in the training level classes that seemed to be demonstrating a bit of "greeness" though a nice animal to look at on the line. My point is that much of the advice that you have been given reflects what I saw even just yesterday: The majority of those brought to sport horse classes were not being shown under saddle which is where I feel the men are separated from the boys. There was also a notable theme in those being shown - just because they were crossed with a warmblood didn't automatically make those "half-breds" rack scores in the 70s'. Having been to your website (very nice girls I might add), having shown the local recognized open and Arab dressage shows, and having a fair handle on the prices and training abilities that are out there I agree with the others that you're likely to see a big difference if you focus on getting at least one of your girls out there and shown under saddle. I've stood in appreciation and watched many nice warmblood x arab crosses on the line but have held back waiting to see what they do under saddle. Some I know are of age but where did they go? It's not too different from many of the european warmbloods I see imported into Phoenix each year and then at the next show wonder what happened or where are they? Couple this with the fact that your girls are more in my height range/preference - and I am in the minority. Unfortunately in the Arab circles - bigger is better is still the ongoing theme. It's one big reason why the part-breds continue to out number the purebreds in specific disciplines in my opinion. As stated earlier, it isn't until the smaller ones starting proving themselves either in performance or in the breeding shed that people with the real cash or clients pay attention. Also in terms of sport pony breeding stock - there are many on this board in fact that have or had nice anglo-arab broodmares that did not have to pay an arm and a leg to get them, nor did they have to break them out in exchange for use. I'm not sure how far you're willing to send one or both but there are not that many sport pony breeders in this state (but maybe in CA you can find someone)for this to be an attractive option. I don't mean to be so negative but I too have had trouble selling sport ponies in this fish bowl we have in AZ and it's not easy even in Phoenix. There is a decent dressage trainer in your area who has shown Arabs who also seems to have a sizeable student population with a wide range of age, ability, breed preference, and size (speaking of students). Is it possible to see if she has a student who would be willing to pay for the training/boarding of one of your gals in exchange for riding, showing and lessons? I'm not a fan of leasing but with the right trainer/student this could be a feasible way for you to get your gal(s) trained, seen and marketed.

[Natural hi]

Hi
I thought some very good points were brought out in the last couple of messages...about "small horses"
One thing that I would like to point out that most folks on the arab circuit don't have a 16 hh horse regardless if it is dressage or jumper... the reason that I say this is that my stallion is 16hh and this was not the norm when it came to sport horse nationals in California this year. I agree that the arab circuit wants bigger, bigger than 14.2 and most seem happy with a 15.2 or 3 type horse...
Someone mentioned that if the market is so good for arabxwarmblood why are they not selling...
I think they are at least off my farm they are But I had to prove myself and my breeding program first...raw prospects are not in demand as they once were...I believe to many people were taken hook line and sinker with the smooth talk of what the raw prospects could become and were disappointed when it didn't happen for them.
I said that I had to prove myself and I did and it was not easy not easy because I am a breeder of horses not a trainer my pockets are not deep. But a close friend of mine and I decided that we could do it all. Determination and hard work is paying off...my horses are selling and for a decent dollar why because I took the plunge and took my horse to 3 shows this year, 3 shows that if we won and did well I believed than the customer had something to see, not just a good horse, but a horse in action...Because of showing at Canadian National I sold his full brother(a raw prospect) for close to asking price. I took term but I am ok with that the horse stays at my place till he is paid in full.
A amateur bought him for herself to train and ride to SHN...and this is what is so interesting about SHN on the Arab circuit the amateurs are doing it...in the jumping ring...in the dressage ring and in hunter and show hack. The trainers are not there,not there like you witness at the other nationals. This lady had no choice but to start with a raw prospect the older and going under saddle well lets just say thier owners are having to much fun riding them and bringing them up from basic to Level 2 to Prix levels and it takes a long time and not many AT are willing to let go of a partnership once it is developing. I beleive the same to be true about the jumping world at SHN. I met alot of women who like myself were enjoying their horses and trying to do it themselves, and having a great time.
you can visit us at www.espequines.com (http://www.espequines.com)

[arabs4sprt]

Argh! So for the 3rd time an ad of mine appears in Arabian Horse Magazine, and for the 3rd time they printed my email address WRONG! I am so frustrated. I had originally only contracted with them to print one ad, they got it wrong, offered to rerun it and fix the email address. They got it wrong again. This last time I asked them to just drop the email address because no email address was better than one that was wrong -- what did they do? They printed it wrong again! I'm so frustrated.

[ponygrl]

see the arab market is good in tucson, but there are so many "backyard" arabs that unless you're on the arab circuit they just cycle through the daily star. Its too bad Ijust moved or I'd see this as a fun project. Check your PTs Tracy.

[Oakstable]

The WestWorld show was very big -- more than 450 entries -- and an Arab-Hanoverian cleaned up some major ribbons.

The previous poster made a good point differentiating between backyard horses or those on the circuit.

In the horse world, you have to spend money to make money.

[Sparks5]

arabs4sprt - I looked at your website, and while your fillies are beautiful, the big pot bellies are concerning. I would run the other way if I saw a horse with a big pot belly. It makes it look as if the horse has untreated worms. Untreated worms can cause SERIOUS damage to the digestive tract. That is a REALLY BIG red flag in my book.

It may be nothing more than squished up pictures from whatever software you've used, or it could have been just an awkward moment, but I would try to get some new pictures.

Best of luck - your girls are gorgeous!!

[Karosel]

Ahhh I dont think they are so much "pot bellies" but "weanling bellies." And frankly what you said could have been said in a PT.

[Sparks5]

"Weanling" bellies? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I've never heard of that. Maybe it's particular to Arabs? I don't know. I bought my Arab at 10 months old and she had a pot belly too. I worked on it for a good year trying to get it gone. I learned a lesson from that! Now its a red flag.

[Karosel]

It is very common for a weanling to have a larger "pot belly". They are not able to digest hay that well and thus develop a larger belly. As the weanling ages the better the ability to digest fibre develops. Your filly most likely just grew up and was able to digest fibre more effeciently. Many of the other more experienced breeders will agree with me. It is very common for babies to have a belly. This can be reduced by feeding a finer hay as well as more grain. In fact if you read the feeding instructions on the feed bag it is reccommended to feed more grain than hay for a weanling.

[Piaffe~Passage]

arabs4sprt you have a pm http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[arabs4sprt]

About the weanling bellies, they were wormed every two months, but I had to pull them off their mothers at 5 months because these Arab mares put everything they have into the milk and get pulled down pretty bad by the foals despite free feeding and loads of supplements. Karosel is right, foals don't digest cellulose well at first, the gut becomes better at digestion as they get older. Each foal adapts differently, most will show some signs between 4 months and a year, most will adapt within two months of coming off the mare, some take longer. If you look at the later pictures the bellies are quite normal. Also one other thing to note is that Arab show horses are often fed rations that are high in concentrates and low in cellulose in order to give them that stripped down look for showing. I don't do that with my horses, they eat mostly hay, bermuda and alfalfa, they get a small amount of flaxseeds and oats, and they get vitamin/mineral supplements that my vet recommmends. And they get 12 hour turnout every day.

More later, got to go teach a class!

[Sparks5]

Okay, thanks for the info! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[arabs4sprt]

Oakstable, point well taken on the 'it takes money to make money' thing. However I did show at a very prestigious show, and even though we exceeded all expectations, beat the previous year's winner as well as 12 others, (and score was 76.8 by the way), had only weak nibbles. At this point I would love to campaign her or even better get her sister to a show so that she can develop a resume, but I just haven't got the bucks. Shoot it's eating me up that I can't bring her back to Scottsdale to show in the same classes (as well as under saddle) I think she'd take it again. At some point there is also a diminishing return on investment. What to do?

Option 1) find a talented young person who would like to train and show the horse in exchange for riding a great horse. Good option, I haven't been able to find anyone to do that. I either don't have the network or there aren't that many around.

Somebody mentioned Arab trainers in the area, I am careful about the Arab trainers that I will allow to touch my horses. Jackie Alkin was really nice with her, but she didn't have any students looking for a mount.

Option 2) lease the mares out for breeding in order to get enough money for training and showing. Well that would work if anyone wanted to lease them. Just starting to advertise for that, don't know if it will happen.

Option 3) find a trainer that is willing to do training and showing for limited board money and a piece of the sale later. Problem is all the ones I've talked to in my area want too much board money, I just haven't got it, remember I'm a grad student, not a wealthy suburbanite.

Option 4) ???? Ideas? That don't require money? Is there such a thing?

-- By the way I called AH Magazine, they're going to fix the ad and rerun it. They apologized and were very easy to deal with.

[myhorse]

If I had the space and some money I would love to have Sunrise. What a doll. I am selling two of mine through the ADDIS AUCTION OK in March. Good Luck.



Raegan

[myrna]

I wish you luck.we had a heck of a time selling an anglo arab mare this year,just too small(15'2) for what people were looking for.she did go to a good home and i am very happy for her new owner.In the spring we are going to start marketing another anglo gelding.Hopefully this will an easier sell,as he is already 16'1 at 2 1/2,just not sure how tall he will end up.but that's what the market seems to want.

[Piaffe~Passage]

Arabs4sprt: I sent you an email lastnight, I might of sent to I can't remember...:-) Let me know if you got them thanks

[Rubs Not Pats]

Tracy:
It's a tough spot you are in, if this was a TB cross or a warmblood or even a quarter horse it would be much easier to find someone to take a chance. I understand the choices as you have outlined them but think that it is unlikely that you are going to find someone to absorb costs in hopes that she will sell down the line. That's in effect taking risk and loaning you money. I wouldn't do it. It's a tough place. Finding a qualified trainer, who will start your nice baby right is a tough thing even when finances are not an issue. There are only a handfull of people in Phoenix I would trust with mine. Starting them wrong, just because it's cheap or easy is worse than not at all, which is where you are now. I would rather take a loss, learn a lesson in my program and walk away from something that is not working. The market is hard out there and when I have one that isn't selling or performing the way that I want, I decide why, evaluate the breeding, make changes and move on. We repeat what works and run from what does not. The other option of leasing her as a broodmare is fine but at the end of the day where does it get you? Your mare is a year older, still unbroke and you have assumed a heck of a lot of risk. I have no idea what the sport pony market is so I couldn't even begin to comment but considering the amount of mares out there that are proven don't know if there is a market for that either. I wish you the best and hope you find an arrangement that suits your needs.

If you would like suggestions on good trainers in the Phoenix area for breaking I would be happy to pass on some names. They are not unreasonable either and run depending on who ($750-$900/month) and can get her going quietly and probably lead changing too in 2-3 months.

[HFSH]

why don't you go to that auction, MEET people, hand out some business cards, hang some fliers on the walls, and see if you can get some business contacts?

[arabs4sprt]

~*dressage*~, I got your email, just got on the computer for a minute (the life of a grad student/teacher, not much time available). Will try to get back to you later tonight! Thanks for the help!

RubsNotPats, I think I have not made it clear, these girls ARE registered and branded OLDENBURG N.A. They are not JUST Arab crosses. The Arab is a legitimate blood infusion for several warmblood registries. So they do have value not just as riding horses but also as broodmares -- in fact their value may be even greater as broodmares -- if you take the long view. In terms of quality, the blend has certainly worked, you don't get an 8.5 at foal inspection for nothing, all 3 foals we've produced have been Premiums, one only missed Premium Mare Book by 2 points and was invited to come back when she was more mature. The inspector said to the audience that this cross works and he wants to see it repeated. When asked about the smaller size he said that they are not worried about that, breed them to a larger stallion they will produce larger (likewise to a pony stallion to produce ponies). He was taking the long view, what is good for the registry as a whole. But I understand where you are coming from, your point is that while they are potentially great horses for the breed, they are not selling now for the breeder (me). Partly that's my fault, I got into breeding without a fortune, what's the old saying -- if you want to make a small fortune in the breeding business start with a large fortune http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

In this case I don't think the breeding has failed, what I think is that the market has failed -- at least for now, and I'll venture the opinion that the American political landscape may have a lot to do with the market failing. But that aside small size alone is not a point of failure for a horse, to me great horses come in all sizes. I guess I feel that their height unfortunately is too big for a pony and too small for a typical warmblood and therefore sort of a no man's land. Note to self: pick up a true measuring stick and get a real accurate measure of their height! Yet they are really the most incredible moving horses I've ever seen. So what to do, I'm looking to get creative, to figure out how to appeal to the small segment of the market that might be looking for a more modestly sized horse. I can start them under saddle, but I am certainly no show trainer. I can only get them to the point where they steer and can go out on the trail. To get them to the point of appealing to show people requires a trainer. I hear what you are saying about a trainer not wanting to invest their time in an untrained prospect. It was just an idea, probably a bad one, I threw it out as an option. What I'd like to hear now is whether there are any other options I've missed? Is this the sum total of it? Are there any other marketing avenues for me and loads of others in the same boat to try?

HSFH, Thanks for the suggestion, I will go to the auction and bring both business cards and flyers, at least for the first day (I have to go out of town for the 2nd and 3rd days). And I will ask friends of mine to watch what is happening and tell me how it went -- maybe we can post the observations here afterward. I am skeptical of how well it will go, as my friends put it, people from Tucson seem to be willing to go to Phoenix to look for horses, but people from Phoenix are not generally willing to go to Tucson to look for horses. We'll see.

Myhorse, I would love for you to see Sunrise in person, she has a seriously fun personality and loads of ability. She would be excellent for anyone who wanted a horse with a sense of humor and bold and brassy. Interestingly I think she'd make a super kid's horse.

On the idea of other things that they can do, I think they would make a super matched driving pair -- they move very similarly. Unfortunately the driving market is even smaller than the small warmblood rider market.

[jumpgirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The inspector said to the audience that this cross works and he wants to see it repeated. When asked about the smaller size he said that they are not worried about that, breed them to a larger stallion they will produce larger <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, maybe you should call up that inspector and ask him if he would like to buy one or more of your horses and THEN see what he has to say. This is a prime example of telling you what you want to hear, hooking you into doing it again, and them collecting their fees from you. In Europe, the registries are VERY aware of what the market wants and tells the breeders accordingly. They actively help the breeders market and sell their horses. When I hear of what the quasi-european registry officials say to american breeders, it makes me cringe.

And, they ARE Arab crosses. In Europe, they use Arab blood maybe every 6th generation is the basic rule and those F1 CROSSES are called CROSSES in Europe.

The official who told you to keep doing it should be shot especially since you are here in the US where there is already a glut of arab "sporthorses" vs fewer in Europe. And he should have only told you to do it if you had the kind of breeding program, facilities, and wherewithall, to take your F1 cross and breed it back to a warmblood stallion for marketing your F2 or even later generation stock.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Interestingly I think she'd make a super kid's horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, in a few years, then the kid is all grown up and going to college. You need to sell at a loss or lease one or both out to a teenager. You risk having the teenager make mistakes, but there is a lot of complaints that there are not enough people to know how to start babies. The only way people learn is by doing it and screwing up a few along the way. I also cringe at what my first baby put up with me when I was first learning. He survived and did very well. Your will too.

[arabs4sprt]

Ok, this topic is starting to go off the deep end here and getting a little snippy. Instead of getting into a registry discussion that we know will get us thrown off this board, why don't we take it in another, more positive, direction.

How about everybody talk about where you are finding that advertising works best for your kind of horse, also what kind of advertising works best, and how much do you have to spend for it?

Another question that I think is on everybody's minds is when will the market improve? Any predictions in the offing?

[jumpgirl]

I was not taking a slam at any one registry. IMHO, you should be asking these questions TO whatever registry that is encouraging you to breed a certain type of horse. IMHO, a registry should know the market, how to market, where to market, who to market, how good the market is and when the market is soft and when the market should recover.

If the warmblood registries were just a automatic breed registry - that is 2 registered parents equal a registered offspring - then the above is not true. But warmblood registries as described by the officials, are supposed to be more than that - ie, they tell us that they are breeding not a breed but a type that is for a certain purpose and that type changes according to the MARKET. That means they need to know the market and communicate that to their breeders who are spending small fortunes to accommodate their goal.

[Oakstable]

I have never expected an inspection to give me a hint on the marketability of any of my youngsters. Too much comes into play, location being number one. Not to mention the economy.

Sally

[ponygrl]

IME getting out and showing is the best advertisement, then when your fliers or newsletter ads or internet ads are up, there is the name recognition factor. You don't need to go out and win everything, just get your name in print on a list of competitors or list of ride-times. After 60 days the girls should be able to go to any TDC schooling show and do an Intro test or two, like I said in the PT call Sheila and see if she knows of any college kids looking for something to ride, many of her students have dealt with greenies.

[arabs4sprt]

Ok, Ponygrl, will call Sheila, I know I've passed flyers to her barn at shows before, but I haven't actually talked to her in person. Will give her a call and let you know how it went. May take me a day or two, it's finals week! Thanks!

[ponygrl]

I know how finals go, good luck getting everything graded and any work you personally have to do!

[jumpgirl]

Oakstable, I never said that an inspection should offer those services. I said the REGISTRY should. They do in europe and you are with a european registry aren't you? Oh, I see, it is, after all, a european registry and they, of course, don't know what the american market is. They are breeding and marketing for THAT market. Are you?

[Lucassb]

A couple of statements in your post jumped out at me:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> (Snip) In this case I don't think the breeding has failed, what I think is that the market has failed -- (snip)

... small size alone is not a point of failure for a horse, to me great horses come in all sizes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah - but you are not the buyer!

First rule of marketing is to KNOW YOUR TARGET MARKET and what the needs and desires of those buyers are.

I don't know the arab market at all but having read through the previous posts, it does sound very much like they prefer a larger (16h) horse just as the H/J people do. If you look at the posts on the H/J forum, you will notice that a great majority of the posts about WBs praise their size and step as well as their temperment - and you'll see plenty of posts from sellers who are having trouble moving "small" horses larger than yours are. Your quote below, unfortunately, pretty much sums up your situation:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I guess I feel that their height unfortunately is too big for a pony and too small for a typical warmblood and therefore sort of a no man's land. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you have a product that does not meet the requirements of the market you have targeted, there are only so many things you can adjust. As you say, you can't change their height nor your location. That leaves (at least) price and "features," ie, training.

Pricing is always an emotional issue and many horsepeople use a "cost plus" method to arrive at their asking price ( ie, I have $X in this horse and "must" make $Y in profit; that makes the sales price ($X+ $Y) = $Z.)

Buyers, however, use a more market-based approach to pricing - ie, I have $A to spend; what can I get for that much money? Since products in discretionary markets are only sold when buyers are willing to enter the transaction, guess whose model wins?

In many markets, buyers can spend much less to buy a trained kid's horse/trail horse/pony club mount, you need to really consider how your mares compare in a buyer's eyes. If your horses do have more value as broodmare prospects than as riding horses, then perhaps orient your marketing this way and get some feedback from potential customers in that market. If there is still no interest, the market is sending you a message.

I always think there is a market for a well schooled horse, regardless of size. However, the reality is that it may not be at a price point you find attractive. If there is any way for you to put some training into these mares and get them to the point where they can W/T/C and jump a small jump, you will surely at least widen your options. There are many, many good books to guide your training if you feel that would be helpful. Two I particularly like are Anne Kursinski's and Linda Allen's - both include lots of exercises and are progressive in nature.

Good luck.

[Oakstable]

I know a very petite woman looking for a small dressage horse, i.e. 15.3H, and schooled up to 4th level.

Prices seem to go into the $45K-$50K range.

This thread is interesting to those of who are breeders because there has been some good analysis offered. Lucassb summarized it very well.

I think there is a market for an Arab-WB cross but it needs to be closer to the WB size with the added "pretty" from the Arabian. I know of several crosses right now who are very competitive in the sporthorse competitions.

In this case, the mares are closer to Arabian size, so think Arabian circuit and Arabian market.

I'd get advice from Kathy Mann, the owner of the sire. She's been an Arabian breeder and travels all over the country meeting sporthorse breeders. She's also very level headed and I think she'd give advice that you could take to the bank.

Sally

[Montanas_Girl]

I'm going to have to agree with the others...your horses are simply overpriced for what they are *right now* and what the current market can bear. Yes, the Scottsdale win is a big deal, but, to be perfectly honest, I've seen nicer horses barely make it into the ribbons in class A Sport Horse in Hand classes in the last year or so. That's not to say that your mares aren't nice - they are. It's just that there are currently a lot of "nice" Arab/WB crosses out there, thanks to the promise of a booming sport horse market. You have to be more than "nice", IMHO, to demand high prices.

Take my horse, for example. I bought him almost 5 years ago, when the market was stronger, for $2,300. At the time, he was a growthy 5 yr. old registered Half Arab - flashy color but not "beautiful." BUT, he was doing 2 foot courses and flying changes!

The mares are coming four, correct? They really need to be started under saddle to catch buyers' attention, and you need photos that show athletes, not babies playing in the pasture (cute photos are nice, but they don't sell horses). I'm all for giving them time to mature, but they are plent old enough now for light work.

[levremont]

I have to agree with most posters, the mares are over priced for what they are right now at least. I personally bought a gorgeous, 16.2h, 4 yr old Holsteiner mare by Cicero out of a Belgian (WB) mare last year for a little more. She is sound with cleanxrays, under saddle doing w/T/C changes and jumping small stuff.
I don't think the market is all THAT terrible, I run a small business and have sold more than 10 horses in the last 10 months. I find that if they are very well priced they sell fast (especially in the under 15k range) the ones in the higher price range have to be showing and doing well. I advertise online, equine.com and dreamhorse as well as in some publications from time to time (reins and manes, horse talk). I have never had any luck selling anything unstarted unless it was dirt cheap.
I am stressing already about what I will do if my AFR filly turns out as small as I think she will around 15+h (bred for a 16.2+h horse). I know she will have to be exceptional and well started to be worth anything near what I have into her already, but that is just the way the cookie crumbles. I never have much luck at all with horses under 16h, they get about 1/5 of the inquires of any of my other ads, even though most of the time they are exceptional photos (jumping with knees to eyeballs and great movers), the only luck is if they are quiet, fancy, good enough movers and jumpers with a huge stride to be small jr hunters!
Good luck with selling your mares. I do wonder how well they would do as pony broadmares, especially since they seem to be hunter type movers (I assume as the driving person thought so)

[Fairview Horse Center]

I also have a breeder with an Arab / Warmblood cross by Nevada that the owner is just begining to market. She is also 3 1/2, and has not been backed yet. I believe she is supposed to go to the trainers next month. She is a bit bigger (15.2 - 3?), and here in Virginia, so I guess we will see how the market is in this area. I am not sure how they are pricing her.

[arabs4sprt]

Ok, I hear you. Last February, Jackie Alkin(pro-trainer Arab dressage horses who showed Sierra at Scottsdale), told me that $10,000 was the correct price for Sierra. After she won, Jackie said now you don't have to negotiate. Kathy St. Martin, owner of their sire, Mannhattan, also felt $10,000 was about right. Since then Kathy has told me the market sucks right now and nothing in her neck of the woods is moving, but said to stick with the price unless I got desparate. She felt that it wouldn't move them any faster to lower the price. But maybe the market has now changed.


So assuming that to be the case, what price would be good? Remember that these are registered Oldenburgs, not just Half-Arabs. According to at least one breeder of Arab/warmbloods that I talked to the warmblood registry does make a difference.

P.S. I am working on the training situation, we'll see if they can be broke or at least well on their way before school starts up again.

Somebody asked whether their movement is more huntery, yeah kind of, but I think they move more like dressage horses, or maybe in-between the two. The woman who was looking for a driving pair really wanted some serious knee action, she was driving Morgans. They don't move that way. We free jumped Sierra as a two year old just to see what she could do, she has a beautiful bascule, really uses her back and neck well, tight with her knees, and was jumping 3 foot oxers within 15 minutes of being introduced to cavaletti for the first time ever. Haven't done anything else with her since, nor with Sunrise -- I don't believe in jumping their legs off when they are young. We just did that to see what she could do.

[Lucassb]

I am afraid that I sound like a wet blanket again, but just a couple more thoughts:

If $10k was the "right" price, someone would have paid it. The market (buyer) determines pricing. While it may be true that the market is slow(er) than it has been in the past, value always sells; in better markets, more products sell even if they offer lesser value.

As to their movement - obviously you know them best. But honestly it sounds to me like you are back in no-mans land again ("kind of huntery but maybe more like dressage horses or maybe halfway between the two.")

I personally would think about marketing these mares into dressage homes since their size will severely limit the interest from the hunter market no matter how well they jump. They're just too small. They'd need an enormous step to make the lines at 15h and even if they could - it will be awfully hard to get anyone to look at them. There are too many other sale horses out there (especially in your price range) that are 16h plus, and can lope the lines and look the part. Without getting into whether this is fair, appropriate or reasonable - it is the reality of the market.

I do think that there is a market for a smaller dressage horse, especially at the lower amateur levels. Lots of petite women who don't want to ride a huge WB would probably be interested. To appeal to that market, of course they have to be going under saddle, but it sounds like you are getting that organized regardless.

I do wish you the best of luck!

[ponygrl]

I'm curious as for what most 3y/o unbroke Oldenburgs go for, or are advertised as? I love arabs, and as a short eventer would really love to have a nice anglo-arab or even something like these fillies. But I have never paid more than $3K for a horse and even when I finish pharmacy school am oogy about the idea of paying that much for something unbroke. Is that what horse prices are these days? Am I that out of the loop and spoiled by OTTBs? These fillies sum up what I've had my eyes open for, but I would never be able to pay such prices and am pretty backed off at the moment. (well besides the fact that I am so poor right now it isn't funny, but I do like to window shop to see what I will be buying myself with my sign on bonus)

[Tiki]

You are definitely that out of the loop and severely spoiled by OTTBs. Many OTTBs don't work out, and by the time you've run through a few due to lameness or temperment issues, you could easily have bought one of these.

[Rubs Not Pats]

Ponygirl:
Considering I breed to Alla' Czar and his stud fee is $4000 for next year, my foals will be priced at a minimum of $9-$12K when they hit the ground out of nice mares, assuming correctness, etc. If they are correct colored, a sibling to a highly successful line horse or IHF winner etc, have papers are premium and are IHF nominated. I would think $15 while a weanling. The babies by this stallion are very sought after. Three year olds are all broke and going around over here. I really don't know many who are not. Three years old going around, with changes depending on where you are located and what the potential of the horse is and how it moves in the hunter world could be a lot. I have no idea about the event world but think it is substantially lower.

The problem that Arabs4sport is having is having is that they are unbroke, small Arab crosses (even though they have pink papers) which are unfortunatly in many people's minds three strikes especially in the hunter market. Some of which she can fix, some of which she can't. For the dressage/combined training market these attributes may be a good thing. I agree with Lucassb in her assessment that perhaps Tracy you should focus your energy there and try to hook up with a trainer in those diciplines as I know your fillies move more dressagy than huntery.

[arabs4sprt]

Rubs Not Pats, you are right, they are probably more dressagy than huntery, but I've always felt that any athletic horse can do anything. But what the hell do I know? Honestly I'm not in to hunters, only have a vague idea of what a line is, and wouldn't ride a horse over a jump unless it was something I couldn't avoid on a trail.

So for an outside opinion as to what they are suited for, I have gone to the score sheet from the Sport Horse class at the Scottsdale show that Sierra was in, the judge wrote "Well-suited for dressage." So I guess she's a dressage horse, even if she can jump. The judge was USDF "S" and Sport Horse Breeding Judge Sue Madden-Mandas in case anyone wants to know. She breeds Trakehners and used to work with Hilda Gurney but other than that I don't know a thing about her.

[Karosel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiki:
You are definitely that out of the loop and severely spoiled by OTTBs. Many OTTBs don't work out, and by the time you've run through a few due to lameness or temperment issues, you could easily have bought one of these. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep my first OTTB didnt turn out and I even had him vetted. Left a sour taste in my mouth. I dont think I'll buy one again. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[jumpgirl]

arabs4sprt, just because you spent $150 or so and took the horses to a warmblood inspection didn't magically change the breeding of the horses. The didn't all of a sudden morph into "oldenburgs". Most people are a little more savvy than that. They are half arabs that have been approved for breeding within the oldenburg registry and that is all. Based on their size - under 15.3 hands - most warmblood registries wouldn't accept them at all. I am not trying to sound mean but part of the clash with american breeders and american buyers (vs. going to europe) is that american breeders don't know and can't accurately describe to a buyer just what it is that they have bred. So, many buyers are leary about tromping all over the country - expensive - to see a horse described - might be huntery, might be dressage, might be both. Good greif, who are you trying to get out to your farm with that kind of description!

[Rubs Not Pats]

Jumpgirl,

Actually these horses have pink papers, they are full papered Oldenburgs by Manhatten out of Tracy's mares (who were inspected and approved into the mare books and are themselves full Arab). Irrespective of your opinion of Oldenburg/ISR, which I don't even want to get into as everyone has their very own, which they will defend to the death,http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif, these horses were keured as foals with very high scores. As such, height was not an issue.

I applaud Tracy for taking them to an outside sporthorse show and getting an unbiased opinion of thier conformation and gaits. I am glad that she has posted this thread as I think it has served as a learning experience.

Regarding your comment about buyers and being leary about tromping all over the US, this is why it is so hard for anyone to sell a horse from their back yard. In a word, Trust. The buyer and buyers trainer has to have a certain level of trust in what they are going to find when they come to see the animal you have promised and I think that many people have spent years in this business to build that reputation. It's hard to get there overnight and even harder to get there without horses from your program out there in the ring being successful week after week. That for right or wrong, builds credability.

[arabs4sprt]

Rubs Not Pats, you know you may have something there (not that you haven't had a whole bunch of really good ideas so far, you have) but this problem of the sheer size of our country has been mentioned before by breed inspectors, by other breeders I've talked to, and by people that have said to me "if you could only get them to California I know they'd sell". Let me put it to you this way, if you are a known breeder with a stallion that is well-known, then being out in the hinterlands is not a problem. But if you are just starting out, being located on either coast, near centers of horse activity in dressage, jumping, etc. is a big plus. This is not to say that you can't succeed out in boonies during a good market, but it is much harder in a lousy market to do well if you are far away AND not well-known yet. Does that sound plausible? Does it fit with other's experiences? How many times have we heard "I could have sold him/her for x-times more if I didn't live in Kansas, or Oklahoma, or Montana, or (name any midland state except Illinois or Texas)."

If true then overcoming this may require advertising in local horse magazines/papers on either coast? (Yes, yes, assuming that horses are broke etc. I got that message already, don't flog the horse to death. Let's move on.) What do people think?

[ponygrl]

and let me clarify that I was NOT insinuating that these fillies are worth $3K, I was just saying that I apparently need to change my wordly view on horse prices when I graduate and my financial situation changes, even if my heart still palpates at the idea of spending more than $7500 on something that could die tomorrow or "just" lame itself for the rest of time (yes I know about insurance!)

[jumpgirl]

There are lots of people who have spent small fortunes on non-off the track TBs that have turned out to be lame, have OCD, be infertile, or whatever too -warmbloods both imported and not, "hunter" bred TBs, irish horses, etc. Those experiences are not specific to people buying cheaper horses from the track.

As for 'pink-papered', I don't care one way or another about the oldna/isr, dutch, holsteiner, whatever - but just because they have a quasi-warmblood registry approving them doesn't change them into something other than a crossbred arab with warmblood - called the F1 both here AND in europe. Just the same as if you had an ex-race horse mare and crossed it with a warmblood with little blood - it is still what the europeans to this day, a half-blood. That is the thing with warmbloods. It is not enough just to say, this is a warmblood. You have to look at what level on the breeding scale the individual warmblood is at - a warmblood mare that is not F1 from one of the outcrossed lines bred to a top producing warmblood stallion is going to have offspring worth a heck of a lot more than the foal who is F1 product....even if both have pink papers.

As for size, I think it does make a difference and apparently everyone else does too. Most warmblood registries will NOT accept a mare that is under 15.3 hands. Sorry, but that is a fact. And it is a fact for a reason as arabs4spt is finding out.

[Tiki]

I don't know what the final height of these mares will be, but most horses don't finish growing until they are at least 5. Some warmbloods don't finish until they are 7. Just because they are xx hands now doesn't mean that's where they will finish.

Again, not to beat a dead horse, get them under saddle.

[mmaurer]

Well I have found I am almost giving away arab/warmblood weanlings/yearlings this year. I am finding the same thing, everyone wants them broke and going..so if I keep them for 3 years and put lots of time into them I will loose money. Mine are CSHA /arab crosses.

I am getting out of breeding the crosses. Arab people want them over 16 hands, broke and going and want to pay 4500 for that horse..ahh NOT! Warmblood/hunter people go " ahhhh arab". Now theres are the type of horses I want to ride, but as the horses need to support themselves a little bit, I can't breed them, and am changing my breeding program.

My suggestion is to look for a talented local kid to do half leasing, and get the horses broke and going, even between xmas and new years(at least you don't have snow and frozen ground like I do up here with no indoor http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Even with just say 10 rides on them, it will make a huge diff. Good luck, I have seen pictures of your mare at Scottsdale and she is lovely..wish I had the $$$$ I would buy them both..hmmm off to buy a lottery ticket..or 5 LOL

[SportArab]

I think, size issue aside, there may be a litle bit of prejudice out there regarding the arab part of pedigree, but that is going to change when these guys start hitting the show ring..

I had my oldest warmblood cross (registered GOV and half arab)at a clinc this weekend and had compliments from soooo many people on him.

He's so quick to learn and willing. We actually ran out of stuff to teach him because he figured out everything so fast that in a half an hour he learned all the skills the cliician thought he should have at this age and stage of developmetn.

And he's EASY to ride, despite having huge gaits. He's very sensitive to the aids. He's been under saddle for a very short period of time and in one clinic he learned to do three loop serpentines, full passes, turns on the forehand.. just amazing.

He's got a great mind.. and is happy to work away from home despite very little experience doing so. We'll be hitting the shows in a couple of months...

[Auffinger Farms]

So many great suggestions! Arab4sport, you are doing a great job and your fillies are lovely, I wish you the best of luck.
I have noticed that most of our response is from those within driving distance (with the exception of our stallions). While I too am having quite a time marketing our horses for sale, I have noticed that it has picked up a little. I recently advertised in our local california horse publication (PT me if you want the name - not sure if I am allowed to say it here) and had no less then 7 calls on one of my mares for sale. She is advertised as greenbroke and we even had an interested party try her out (she is very well behaved but was too green for her needs at the moment). I even had 4 calls on weanlings. That was a lot more traffic and interest than I had anticipated given the market and the fact that it is so close to Christmas. The ad responses were for purebred Arabs and WB's, but I also breed the Arab/WB cross - in fact, our 16 hh Arab stallion sired the #3 in the nation USDF filly Horse of the Year (out of our Hanoverian mare). While I have not offered my Arab/WB crosses for sale yet, I have had interest in them (the only two I have are being kept by us - we will be breeding more next year http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

[arabs4sprt]

Wow, something must be happening, I've got a nibble! A very nice woman called me up tonight, she saw my ad in AH magazine and then looked up my website. She's a former pro-trainer who is shopping for some close friends, mother and daughter. She says she wants to them the right horse, too many horses they are attracted to are not suited to them. Anyway she said she saw the ad and liked both Sierra and Sunrise and now wants a video of each. First serious inquiry since September!