I'd like opinions on crossing my Shire stallion for sport horses.

[K & B]

I have a gorgeous, 19H, very athletic black Shire stallion that I want to stand to the public for breeding sport horses. I would appreciate any input on whether it is worth the expense to have frozen semen available. Also the most effective advertising ideas. Thanks everybody!

[K & B]

I have a gorgeous, 19H, very athletic black Shire stallion that I want to stand to the public for breeding sport horses. I would appreciate any input on whether it is worth the expense to have frozen semen available. Also the most effective advertising ideas. Thanks everybody!

[Delyth]

All I can say is 19 hands?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[carosello]

Other then being black, 19hh and gorgeous..what else does he have to offer a sporthorse mare owner? Has he shown? Has he performed himself?

[spacely]

Draft horse does not equal sporthorse. He'd be better off as a gelding.

Sorry, JMHO.

******************************
Stacey, owned by:
Sonnet, Emily & Shrimp

[This message was edited by spacely on Apr. 05, 2004 at 12:02 AM.]

[Tiki]

I think 17 hands is huge, and draft horses are not sport horses.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[trailblazer]

He may or may not be a sporthorse, but I think his size will scare off many potential customers. It seems that now people are now interested in horses around 16 hands. I don't think there would be much of a market for a horse that big.

[jilltx]

Spacely and Tiki...I think those are pretty harsh judgements about a horse you know nothing about! Different strokes for different folks.

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
~Jilltx~

http://doobage.redirectme.net/horses/kelly2.jpg

"You've gotta get in to get out" ~Peter Gabriel

[K & B]

jilltx & lexiboo -Thank you for your helpful comments http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
carasello - he loves to jump and is very athletic. we placed 4th of 20+ entries at our first horse trial.
delyth - one lady measured him at his girth line and said he's 18.2H
spacely & tiki - http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I did not say he is a sport horse, I said crossing him with lighter {ie: TB} mares to create a sport horse.

[Draygonfyne]

I myself love the Shire x Thbd cross. The results of this breeding are generally very athletic and exceptional horses. I would think there is definitely some (although likely a limited) market for this.

www.draygonfynedesign.ca (http://www.draygonfynedesign.ca)

[okggo]

I'de love to see some pictures of him http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Sorry, I'm a photo addict! I know of 2 people that have Shire/TB crosses. They are both excellent out in the hunt field- total hackers and personality to boot. Both are owned by 6 ft + men who would look funny on anything under a 17h draft type.

My filly’s motto:“when in doubt, run yourself into a frenzy, and impale yourself on a gate.”

[Fred]

I agree with dragonfyne.. I love Shires, and I think there is some market for the shirexTB cross - more in the US than in CAN. There was one farm up here who stood a Shire and as far as I know, they did not have good success. There are one or two Shire stallions advertised in the COTH, could you call those stallion owners and get some feed back from them? The horse market is sometimes unpredictable.. I mean who would have thought Gypsy Cob/ Gypsy Drum ?!!! but, as with all stallions, yours will have to have a niche, a purpose.
If he is a super quality animal, then as a Shire he is worth maintaining as a stallion, to help the Shire breeding programs..
Whether it is worth it to go to the expense of freezing semen, I would say yes, if only for yourself. You may not have a demand for it from the public, but as my vet says, "it is better than insurance". Good to have.
Good luck with him...

[ThirdCharm]

Not near enough information to even say if the horse is worth breeding to, much less the expense of frozen semen.

Placed fourth at what level? Recognized, unrecognized? Dressage score? Clean xc? How many horse trials has he done?

Pix?

Pony Hunter owners across America will be delighted to know you can now measure a horse's height at the girth line if it is too big. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Most of the folks I know who are interested in Shire/TBx are interested in "finished product", not breeding, esp due to the risk of crossing different phenotypes. So if you are really interested in breeding your boy you will probably be most succesful if you set yourself up a band of nice (please) TB broodmares and sell the youngsters.

JenniferS

[Sporthorse South]

Although I've seen one or two Shire / TB crosses that are doing okay at low level dressage, this is not a cross that can be depended on at all for producing good sporthorses. You are talking about crossing a horse bred for PULLING with a horse bred for FLAT RACING. Neither of these types of horses has been selectively bred for generations for the desired sporthorse qualities of superior movement, elasticity, impulsion, self-carriage, balance, good jumping ability, etc. In other words, the genetic dice are stacked against you. Although you might get a nice foal now and again, most foals from these types of crosses are a mish-mash of parts - big clunky heads and necks on light bodies, massive front ends on weak hindquarters, huge bodies on spindly TB legs, very little freedom in the shoulder, no elasticity in the topline, weak hind-ends with very little carrying power, etc. And I agree with others - if he is 19 hands, I cannot imagine that he will be very attractive to more than a handful of mare owners. Sorry to sound so harsh, but you would probably be much better off gelding your horse and enjoying him as a riding horse than going through the hassle of keeping a stallion that MIGHT get one or two mares a year (at best).

[Freehold]

Why would she have to geld him? He could be perfectly nice as a Shire stallion alone - no reason to geld him just because he may not be the best cross for sport horses. I think that there is limited demand for Shire crosses - but that does not mean there is no demand. You would not likely have mare owners pounding on your door to breed to him, but if you are willing to accept a few nice mares in addition to whatever Shire breeding he might do then why not. I personally have liked the Shire crosses I have seen. You could get a couple nice Tb mares to cross to him and prove what he is producing to help with marketing him. Good luck!

www.freeholdequine.com (http://www.freeholdequine.com)

[Frank B]

Bogey does in fact stand 19 hands. We made an 8" extension to fit on the stick just for his benefit and several of us measured him just to be sure.

He and Kim schooled at a dressage clinic this weekend. They were impressive to say the least.

[Jasmine]

If he is doing well in dressage, then there may be some interest in him. It will be hard to break into the *sporthorse* breeding game with a Shire stallion, though.

Good luck, whatever you decide!

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

[flypony74]

Personally, I have met several nice Shires that were very nice movers and extremely athletic. I think some quality crosses could produce some really nice field hunters and lower level eventers or dressage horses. Your stallion sounds lovely (and huge! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

I finally set up a photo album...take a look!
http://community.webshots.com/user/flypony74

[Curley]

If you are intested in keeping him as a stallion, I would not rely soley on sport-horse type mares for breeding. If he is nicely conformed and well bred (which all stallions should be) perhaps you should campaign him in the Shire world as well... a bit more work, but necessary in promoting stallions. That way you would at least be tapping into both markets.

I was personally offended by the post that suggested he be gelded because he is a draft with no other reasons offered...come on now, drafts are not pieces of garbage just because they don't compete in an olympic sport. The purebred draft breeding business is a healthy and noble aspect of the horse world...just as noble as your sporthorses/warmbloods. I breed Clydesdales, and let me tell you that the good ones sell for just as much as your high-end warmbloods...the demand IS there. Stud fees for the quality draft stallions ARE the same as the sporthorses in our area ranging from $800 for unproven studs, $1000-1800 for the proven studs. From what I have read on many times on this board, I don't think many of the draft neigh-sayers have actually looked at the modern champion draft stock out there, but rather rely on the mental picure of the drafty/barrel-chested/short legged/short necked plow/coarse boned horse of the 1900's. Please do us all a favour and do a search on the internet and look at some of the modern bloodlines out there. It is a vastly different type of horse.

And lest this become a debate of the merit of draft crosses, I agree there are alot of just plain terrible draft crosses out there..bred by backyard breeders or those buying into the fad..using below average mares and stallions. THere ARE however, some very nice crosses out there bred by knowledgable people using quality horses..too bad more aren't breeding this way, because the outcome of a thoughtfully planned cross can be outstanding.

[Luna]

I am suprised at how rude some of these responses are. Clearly they are from people that know much less about sporthorses and draft crosses then they claim to. There have been many very successful horses that have come from draft/tb (or other) horses. And as to comments in regards to the draft's ability as a sporthorse? Does Cottonwood Flame ring a bell? Sorry, but before spouting fire, learn some facts. Breeders are working very hard everyday to create better, stronger horses. Every few years we go through 'fad' breeds, but one thing will always remain...the quest to make a healthier, happier horse, both for the competetive and non-competetive world.
For those of you that question the validity of having draft crosses in the sport horse world, I urge you, do some research. Good horses, bad horses...every breed has them. I have seen many an expensive, well bred warmblood with huge ears, an ugly face and a long back, and many a draft cross with a thick, short neck and large hooves...but I have seen many a beautiful warmblood, and many a nice draft cross. Please, this narrow mindedness is just embarrassing.
Anice horse is a nice horse, regardless of its pedigree.

Best of luck to you and your stallion, and please post pics for us draft lovers!

Infamous luna's Custom Equine Portraits http://infamousluna.20megsfree.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/infamousluna

[Sportpony]

I know two people who do stand Shire stallions and do market them to sporthorse mare owners, primarily to TB mares. Whether the market is big enough to warrant freezing semen, I don't know. Many mare owners (and their vets) are more comfortable with cooled/shipped.

Neither of the two breeders I know personally offer frozen, though they both seem to have a small but steady client base for both stud services and for youngsters.

True, the youngsters tend not to sell as weanlings/yearlings and are more marketable as 3 year olds started under saddle but that is true for the warmblood sales as well.

It's also true the draft crosses are usually not suitable for mid and upper levels of dressage or eventing, but they can be very solid, reliable low-level performers.

Of the 10 or so owners I know that have the draft crosses, Shire and Percheron both, I have not heard those owners having more problems with soundness than the owners of the big warmblood horses.

I've seen a number of the crossbreds and while there are occasionally foals that get the "wrong pieces" of each parent, it doesn't appear to be common.

Many riders/owners do prefer warmbloods or warmblood crosses especially if they are looking for mid to upper level performance. But there are a number of people prefer the draft crosses as a low-level sporthorse and that is where your "niche" market is.

I think if the stallion has shown successfully at least at low levels ... or has offspring from the crosses you are marketing for that are competing successfully ... then you will probably have a market for him, though I would hesitate to encourage the frozen semen option.

Kaleidoscope Farm
http://www.stallionstation.com/kaleidoscopefarm
Colored sporthorses & sportponies for non-traditional riders

[okggo]

Check out this link Shireland (http://www.shireland.com)
I was searching around at drafts months ago and found this site- I think it's a great example of gorgeous draft cross horses. I love a nice looking cross- and more importantly the great temperment!

My filly’s motto:“when in doubt, run yourself into a frenzy, and impale yourself on a gate.”

[dressageandtrailrider]

I noticed you are located in VA. You might want to check with Woodruff Shires and Warmbloods. I think they stand a shire stallion. I'm thinking of taking lessons there. The owner, Sue Knox, is really nice and I'm sure she would be happy to answer a few questions. PT me and I'll send along her email address and phone number if you think you might be interested. She has two new foals and one is a Shire and the other is a Percheron crossed with TB mares I think. Cute, cute!

[wanderlust]

I cannot believe how rude some of you have been in your responses. Sure, some first-generation draft crosses come out with bits and pieces, but others that I've seen (including a TB/Clyde in our barn) are pretty outstanding both physically and temperament-wise. And amateurs like them for that very reason- they tend to have fantastic temperaments.

And if you want to see some absolutely gorgeous 2nd generation shire/TB crosses, check out www.oneofakindhorse.com (http://www.oneofakindhorse.com). The babies they breed are sensational movers and jumpers. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I'm sure the original poster would appreciate constructive feedback http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif rather than the "aren't you an idiot for even asking such stupid question" feedback she has received from some. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

[AuntieSha]

I have heard such wonderful things about the temperament and athletic abilities of Shire/TB crosses. I know that there are several Shire breeders that include this cross (and others) along with pure Shire breeding. Troika Drafts (http://www.troikadrafts.com) and Tally Ho Shires (http://www.tallyhoshires.com) just to name a few.

I can personally vouch for One Of A Kind Horse Ranch (http://www.oneofakindhorse.com) as I own one of their crosses (a 1/4 TB, 1/4 Shire, 1/2 HAN) who is utterly beautiful in conformation, movement and temperament (though she has a touch of her dam's (HAN) spunk from time to time.) I truly LOVE her... CW at One Of A Kind Horse started off with a Shire who she breed to TB's for the cross... and LOVES to talk horses! Visit her website and email her if you want to talk more about this cross with someone who has been doing it for years. She is ultimately approachable on the topics, and loves to chat!

Good luck! And put some pics up! I love those big boys! (Being 5'11" myself...)

[grayfox]

My old barn had a shire cross, a very nice horse. He was ridden by an older women who certainly could have afforded any horse she wanted. I love the horses at Shireland, I wouldn't mind having a few of them in my barn. I hope you post pictures of your stallion. He sounds like he might be a nice horse and many warmblood stallion in the US only breed to a few mares a year. Good luck.

[Sporthorse South]

I am very sorry if I offended people in my previous response. I was not trying to be rude, but was instead trying to point out that a 19h Shire stallion is probably not going to attract a lot of interest from serious, dedicated, experienced sporthorse breeders. Again, while there are certainly some lovely draft / TB crosses around that are fairly successful in low-level sport horse discplines, these are far more often the exception than the rule. In fact, I've seen quite a few draft / TB crosses of various types over the past 10-20 years, and quite honestly, there are maybe only one or two that stick out in my mind as really nice sporthorse specimens - the rest just did nothing for me. Again, I apologize for offending anyone, but I will leave you with this analogy from the dog breeding world - if you want to produce good gun dogs, it doesn't make sense to start with a St. Bernard sire and a Greyhound dam. Yes, you might get lucky and get one or two that can do an adequate job of pointing, flushing, and /or retrieving game, but you will be so much further ahead if you start with the breeds that have been selectively bred for this type of work for generations. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[trailblazer]

I think we're forgetting how young a breed the modern Warmblood is. Look at photos of Warmbloods from a hundred (or even fifty) years ago. It's a very different picture. They would not be accepted into today's registries, just as the modern Warmblood would not have fared well in the past. Today's Warmblood breeds are young breeds that have accomplished quite a bit in a short amount of time. But even now, very few Warmbloods are cut out for the upper levels. Stallions in Europe are bred to hundreds of mares a year. As is always a case, only a few rise to the top.

Anyway, I think the main thing going against a Shire/TB cross is that people are not used to seeing it. If your stud has a show record and some proven offspring, that will help a great deal. Without seeing a picture, I don't know how anyone could judge whether or not he is stallion quality. And as was mentioned before, there is a market for pure-blooded drafts! Even if sporthorse breeders are not interested, there may be a market for him elsewhere (assuming he is a correct specimen).

Finally, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Just because Warmbloods are successful in the sport horse disciplines does not mean that a different type of horse could not be. I do not think these disciplines should be Warmblood breed shows. While you may face an uphill battle and will probably not make a fortune from stud fees, I don't see why a quality animal of a different breed could not make his mark in the sport disciplines. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

P.S. All of this is written assuming that you have a correct, sound, and sane animal. If you don't then he really should be gelded.

[Curley]

Lexiboo - you raise a good point that the warmbloods of today are vastly different than the warmbloods of 50-100 years ago. I don't understand why many of the posters on this board don't acknowledge the same of the draft horse...why they think today's draft is the same horse as one hundred years ago is beyond me. I personally am getting tired of the "plow/cart horse comments" "lack of freedom in the shoulder" "short necked" "overly developed muscling" etc etc arguments that you often read here. If I could post pictures I would, but I strongly recommend the draft critics here to update their research and take a moment to view the draft animals that are American and Canadian champions TODAY not turn of the century. Personally, I prefer full drafts, but see the potential for them to contribute to the sporthorse world (many of the 1/4 draft crosses are amazing). Their temperment is to die for, hence alot of the reason these horses remain in the lower levels/amature ring...where temperment, tractability, affordability and plain good looks are highly valued.

[murph]

Geez...the kind of rude and snooty responses some people have posted here are the kind of thing that makes me feel ashamed and embarassed to be a part of an industry at times that has an awful lot of participants with their noses firmly pointed upwards. WOW! This poor lady just asked for some opinions and advice here and telling her that her horse would be better off gelded (amongst other incredibly rude responses ) is totally shocking not to mention extremely ignorant.

For those that think that draft crosses have no place in the "sport horse" world, have a look at the past sales photos on the Shireland website. Most of those horses are absolutely stunning and obviously athletic and frankly most could not at first glance be differentiated from a very nice warmblood of any breed!

I myself have ridden a few draft crosses that were incredibly talented jumpers (to the tune of very competitive at 4'6+) and they could hold their own in most any company. The Shires in particular are VERY nice! And to assume that as soon as the words "sport horse" are applied that only a warmblood can apply for the job - for pete's sake!! I guess you same people likely turn your noses up at full TB's as well, right? Very few people are looking for/expecting to find a "top level" show horse anyway. Sure, I don't expect to see many draft crosses in the FEI dressage rings but they can be awesome jumpers, do lower level dressage, field hunt etc etc and have superb personalities generally.

We just got a Shire mare in for breeding to our TB stallion and wow is she gorgeous!

To the OP: don't take the negative narrow-minded stuff too much to heart. I know that all the breeders I have seen of Shire/TB crosses seem to have an excellent market for their horses. And I at least would LOVE to see photos of your big guy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[jilltx]

I second the request for a photo or two, K & B. Sorry some of the posters here have been "less" than constructive and respectful. Don't let them scare you away. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
~Jilltx~

http://doobage.redirectme.net/horses/kelly2.jpg

"You've gotta get in to get out" ~Peter Gabriel

[Fred]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:
Although I've seen one or two Shire / TB crosses that are doing okay at low level dressage, this is not a cross that can be depended on at all for producing good sporthorses. You are talking about crossing a horse bred for PULLING with a horse bred for FLAT RACING. Neither of these types of horses has been selectively bred for generations for the desired sporthorse qualities of superior movement, elasticity, impulsion, self-carriage, balance, good jumping ability, etc. In other words, the genetic dice are stacked against you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, sporthorsesouth, you apologised for being too harsh.. but I for one (and I bet I am not alone here) am still mightily offended... once again, the tired old saw that Thoroughbreds are not bred to be sporthorses...superior movement? elasticity? impulsion? self-carriage? balance? good jumping ability? etc? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I think you just DESCRIBED a good Thoroughbred!
In one swoop you managed to offend a huge group of people!

[Elkene]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frank B:
He and Kim schooled at a dressage clinic this weekend. They were impressive to say the least.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kim? As in Kim Gentry out of Memphis, TN? Please email me if this is the case. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've seen lots of TB/draft crosses - some looked like they got the worst of both, some where very nice, others were average. But isn't that true of most types of horses? You'd just have to breed the best ones and not the others to keep "progressing".

Many of the first generation crosses are a little heavy for me - and 19 hands - I'm hoping my SWB will slow down (3 years old and 16.2h!) - 19h is just gigantic to me. But would like to see a pic of your boy - love to see pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Good luck!

[cgray0983]

I want to respond to this forum only because I believe that there are great Draught crosses out there. the majority of the horses that my family own are Irish sporthorse which are usually Irish Draught x TB mare. It makes for an athletic showjumper, so not being an expert on the subject, I wanted to add my two sense to the forum!

-Christina
~AquaFlight~
~PR~

http://community.webshots.com/user/cgray0983

[TwoDreamRides]

I'm interested in breeding draft crosses when I've graduated college...

And I plan on being a "serious, dedicated breeder" of "sport" horses. Mine will just happen to have 1/8 to 1/4 draft blood in them.

I think that you would have a enough interest to perhaps break even on expenses, but prob. not make a great profit. A number of draft crosses do well in the jumpers and Dressage, the less draft in them the better they do at Hunters [just because its opinion based] and I'd say most people would not look at much more than 1/4 draft for eventing.

Needless to say, there will still be people atleast looking for a draft to cross to for sport. I'd personally look for a stallion with minimal knee action, good ground manners, and a lighter, more modern build than the traditional stocky-ness. I would also want the horse to be well proportionate.

Also, check out www.TASRegistry.com (http://www.TASRegistry.com) That's the Thoroughbred and Anglo Sport Registry. Anything with 50% Thoroughbred or more in it is pretty much registered with them, even if breeding was AI. This promise of registration may be more attractive to mare owners, and the website also explains ho wthe foal generally takes on more of the build of the mare [i.e. how when breeding for an anglo with Thoroughbred type, it is better for the mare to be the TB and the stallion to be the other breed...] I actually think that's pretty true, just from experience. My guy is out of a Belgian/TB mare, who's mom was a Belgian and sire was a TB. She has more of a Belgian build. ALex's dad was a TB, and once again the dam was the DraftX. He ended up quite heavy. However, my aunt has a paintxShire mare who looks just like an oversize paint, at 17 hands. Needless to say, the dam was the Paint and the sire was the Shire. I have pictures of both horses [3/4 TB 1/4 Belgian and the Paint/Shire] if interested in looking at /comparing the builds.

[Draygonfyne]

This is a bad photo (grainy), but I'd take this guy anyday....

Luke is a 1/4 clyde gelding, out of my 1/2 clyde mare, who was sold through the Ishoy's barn and is not competing dressage in the States (New York I believe....). Leif is out of the same mare by a thbd stallion....

I think there is most DEFINITELY a place for the 1/2 and 1/4 draft in the sporthorse world. As with any quality breeding program you have to be careful....but they are incredible, superb animals.

www.draygonfynedesign.ca (http://www.draygonfynedesign.ca)

[Draygonfyne]

Luke's photo....

www.draygonfynedesign.ca (http://www.draygonfynedesign.ca)

[ThirdCharm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cgray0983:
I want to respond to this forum only because I believe that there are great Draught crosses out there. the majority of the horses that my family own are Irish sporthorse which are usually Irish Draught x TB mare. It makes for an athletic showjumper, so not being an expert on the subject, I wanted to add my two sense to the forum!

-Christina
~AquaFlight~
~PR~

http://community.webshots.com/user/cgray0983<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An Irish Draught is a warmblood, not a draft horse.

JenniferS

[WhatzUp]

Hi everyone,

Thought I would clarify something ... an Irish Draught is a Draft (Draught) horse - they are not a warmblood registry.

Does anyone know whether the Irish Sporthorse (crosses of the Irish Draught and X) group have considered warmblood registryhooddom ? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[NZ Loopy Lu]

So who and what defines a 'sport' horse?

To me a sport horse is an animal of substance, of intelligence, of balance and of power, of temperament and courage, of gentility and nobility and of athleticism. He could be as small as 14.2HH or as big as 17.2HH. He could have TB, Arab, Hanoverian, Clydesdale, Trakhener, Percheron, Hosteiner, Shire or Quarter horse in his heritage (and many other breeds that I don't have the time to type http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) He is good at dressage, or perhaps is a Show Jumper, maybe he likes to run and jump across the country or perhaps he does all three and rides the trails on his days off? So, what IS a sport horse?

19 hands WOW!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif If he embodies all the true characteristics of the Shire breed then please, keep him entire and please, find a couple of shire mares to help keep this beautiful rare breed alive. I cn't answer the frozen semen quesion for you - sorry.

My husband and I are bonafide heavy horse fans and we have 2 purebred Clydesdale horses (a mare and a colt) and various crosses and they will all make lovely riding horses for the amateur rider.In NZ the Clydesdale/TB cross and Clydesdale/TB/Arab cross is very popular and there are a large number of these horses that are very competitive esp. in Show Jumping and up to Olympic level.

I would love to see pics. Do you like our girl?

Debi (http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v35/Loopylou/Mares/P1010005.jpg)

Loopy Lu

Proud member of the IDAC clique
TF Sporthorses (http://www.geocities.com/tfsporthorses/TF_Sporthorses.html)

[Fred]

well said Loopy Lu.. brought tears to my eyes!
I love Shires, every year they have a few at the Royal Winter Fair, and I just stand and admire them.. what beautiful , magnificent animals.
I think the story of how they came back from the brink of extinction is very inspiring.
re the draft mare/TB stallion question.. that was a thread a while ago..the expression that you hear most of the time is "blood on top".. but why, genetically it should make a difference... I don't know..
There are a lot of stallion owners on this BB, as one of them, I would be more than willing to give you any help or advice or input you might &lt;not&gt; want!
One thing I think you should do is support him yourself, as in buy a couple of nice mares to breed to him yourself.
There is not a huge demand for frozen semen, but again, even if you only do a couple of freezes, that should give you a large # of straws 'just in case".
good luck with him!

[ThirdCharm]

Quote from Irish Draught Society website:
"Over a century of selection has produced a warmblooded breed which are very sound, sensible animals with good bone, substance and quality"
The Irish Draught is first and foremost a riding horse. Purebreds commonly compete in showjumping, eventing, dressage, foxhunt, etc. There was also, until recently, a protocol for incorporating "improvement" blood (TBs) into the registry, such as most warmblood registries have. It is also a breed accepted by some European warmblood registries for outcrossing, a privilege NOT accorded to draft breeds. Saying they are a draft breed b/c during the week the _founding stock_ had to haul peat is like calling a Hanoverian a carriage horse.

JenniferS

[This message was edited by ThirdCharm on Apr. 06, 2004 at 10:51 AM.]

[cgray0983]

your right, my mistake...

-Christina
~AquaFlight~
~PR~

http://community.webshots.com/user/cgray0983

[Iron Gate Farm]

I was also insulted by some of the comments to this topic. Just because a horse is 1/2 or 1/4 draft he's worthless? Drafts & draft crosses can make fine sporthorses. My mare is a 1/2 Clyde 1/4 TB 1/4 Belgian and is without a doubt one of the best horses I have ever worked with. She has it all, IMHO! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

K&B- I know lots of people who would be interested in a ShireX. One of my teachers in high school has a Shire/TB gelding currently going Prelim, with expectations of going higher.

ShireX and DraftX are also popular hunt horses. The MFH of our hunt club rides a pure Percheron, and he's very athletic (suprisingly so, for a horse of his size! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif )

I think if your stallion has the key components: trainability/ridability, conformation, movement, personality, athleticism, etc. He should make a very good stallion. I think there is a market for draft crosses, especially for those who can't afford the pricey registered warmbloods. Good luck with him! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



~*The world owes you nothing. It was here first. - Mark Twain*~

The new farm!: http://community.webshots.com/album/121303210wdxKrm

[Roisin]

Bits & Pieces - Sorry, but Irish Draught horses are NOT draft horses! They may not be considered "true warmbloods" to the people involved in the warmblood registry game, but they are not draft horses either. I'm proud to own an IDSH...but I do think the name of the breed is problematic to marketing efforts!

[WhatzUp]

I give up. The warmblood registry game ? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


Back to the cave ...

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[Roisin]

I didn't really mean it in a negative way, so no need to run for the cave! Honest!! It was meant to be a neutral comment...just referring to folks who breed what are considered to be the official warmbloods. Sorry if the choice of words wasn't the best.

I was merely trying to point out that you comment regarding ID=Draft was incorrect. I have no agenda against, or beef with, any breed or registry.

[cgray0983]

Originally posted by mtnprlfan:
I'm proud to own an IDSH...but I do think the name of the breed is problematic to marketing efforts!


I know I made a mistake...I had an IDSH and my sister has one now...So I appologize for being thick headed, I should be ashamed for insulting one of my favorites...ooopppss.

-Christina
~AquaFlight~
~PR~

http://community.webshots.com/user/cgray0983

[Roisin]

cgray0983 - All is forgiven, especially since you have such great taste in horses! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Thinking about draft crosses has caused me to remember a great individual I knew in MN long ago! He was called "Madison County" while being shown in the jumpers here...and he was foxhunted regularly, too! He was sold to someone out east and renamed "Fat City". We saw him in the Tampa Invitational sometime in the late 70s...I think Terry Rudd rode him. Don't know what type of draft cross he was, but he was awesome!!

[WhatzUp]

Hi !

Personally I really hope that the IDSH become "official warmbloods" - in fact a few years ago (3?) at the Spruce Meadows Masters that IDSH Society had a booth set up - and they were talking about getting the warmblood registry "thing" going and that the brand was going to be a Shamrock. REALLY !

I wonder where that went ?

Do you know ??

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[cgray0983]

I don't know what they are thinking about doing...I have been by their booth at Hickstead, but that was also three years ago. I also have a question...Is there a difference between IDSH and ISH?...My sister has a horse by Creggan Diamond(RID) and a thoroughbred dam. I had a horse by Cavalier Royale(Holst.) by an ISH dam. My family imports ISHs, so I should really get this down...but it wasn't until recently that I saw the initials IDSH...

-Christina
~AquaFlight~
~PR~

http://community.webshots.com/user/cgray0983

[NZ Loopy Lu]

It is my understanding (and someone correct me if I am wrong), that an ISH is a horse with no less than 1/4 Irish Draft blood. An IDSH is a pure Irish Draft. I have 2 Irish Sport Horses (also known as Irish Hunters) - Both are by an ID stallion over a TB mare. I also have a horse that I have bred that is 1/4 ID, 3/4 other (Malteser for those of you following the critique thread of my yearlings).

I LOVE LOVE LOVE my Irish Horses!!!

Loopy Lu

Proud member of the IDAC clique
TF Sporthorses (http://www.geocities.com/tfsporthorses/TF_Sporthorses.html)

[Roisin]

From what I understand, ISH is used in Ireland and includes Irish TB, Connemara, Irish Draught, etc., etc. and related crosses.

IDSH, on the other hand, was something the Irish Draught Society in North America came up with to identify Irish Draught crosses in particular.

So...an ISH may or may not be an IDSH!

The IDHSNA has a registry and approval process for IDs and IDSHs, and is affiliated with the mother society in Ireland. I think they are going to hang tough with the "D"-word rather than rename the breed. There are some folks who have started other registries (possibly because their horses were not approved by IDHSNA, or they have had some other sort of falling out with IDHSNA), but these other registries are not recognized by the Irish Society. I've heard of a Celtic Warmblood registry/society, but I really don't know anything about it.

The IDHSNA does not do any branding right now, but I believe it's been discussed in the past. I love all things Irish, but I'm not sure I want a shamrock on my girl's bum!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Roisin]

NZ Loopy Lu - IDSH is not a purebred. The initials for a purebred are "ID".

For IDHSNA, you need 1/8 ID to get into the book as an IDSH. Not sure if this is standard with all the affiliates worldwide, though.

(But whatever they are called...I love them too!!)

[NZ Loopy Lu]

Thx for that - Over here ID is pure Irish Draft too so not sure why I was getting so muddled. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Nappy brain prolly.

Loopy Lu

Proud member of the IDAC clique
TF Sporthorses (http://www.geocities.com/tfsporthorses/TF_Sporthorses.html)

[cgray0983]

mtnprlfan: PT

-Christina
~AquaFlight~
~PR~

http://community.webshots.com/user/cgray0983

[jilltx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> For IDHSNA, you need 1/8 ID to get into the book as an IDSH <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and one parent must be approved for breeding http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif A fact that has been overlooked and that I have been unfortunate enough to deal with.

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
~Jilltx~

http://doobage.redirectme.net/horses/kelly2.jpg

"You've gotta get in to get out" ~Peter Gabriel

[vxf111]

I have seen a shire/TB cross a time or two and I know there's SOME demand for them. A girl just left our barn who had a shire/TB cross. He wasn't my cup of tea, but he went around the local hunters and got some ribbons. And he was sweet as pie. I have seen other crosses (at shireland for example) that were drop dead gorgeous. Some of the ones there are lovely and not drafty in the least but athletic sporthorse types. So I wouldn't say there's no market/demand for shire/TB crosses when the crosses are nice.

But getting nice means breeding like to like. That being said, at 19 hands you're going to have a serious problem attracting TB mare owners for the sport horse market. I suspect that the shire stallions used in shire/TB crosses are probably the smaller, slightly lighter, more modern type. Not calling your guy clunky, because I haven't seen him, but to attract TB mare owners for crosses I think you'd want a smaller shire stallion. Being 19 hh is going to be a turnoff to a lot of mare oners, right off the bat.

What about marketing him to shire mare owners? I would think if he's nice, that there MUST be a market there.

~Veronica

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"

[Nexta]

Shire/TB cross -- great -- lets just recreate the warmblood...

[ladyfarrier]

Very interesting discussion with some interestings twists along the way. But the original post:
"I have a gorgeous, 19H, very athletic black Shire stallion that I want to stand to the public for breeding sport horses."

I'm assuming you're trying to find out what the demand for his services would be and if it would warrant freezing him. Not to debate whether he should, or should not be standing at stud, that's your decision, my reply as a breeder would be (most cordially), "no, thank you".

It's hard enough to keep your head above water breeding warmbloods where you can, for the right individual, ask a decent price. Supply and demand dictate what the babies sell for, and I don't see enough demand for the half-draft babies...at least in my corner of the world...to stand any chance of making back my investment.

Once past the stud fee, my costs are the same whether I breed to an Olympic champion or a Shire stallion. Which one do I stand the best chance of recouping my costs with?

I'm sure there is a niche market for your stallion. Personally, I think the wisest way to go would be to produce the draft crosses yourself and market them. That seems more logical to me than trying to appeal to such a small segment of the breeding industry.

I wish you the best of luck with him..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
jan

Far Away Farm
http://www.arq.net/~farawayfarm

[pato]

First on Irish Draughts a Registered Irish Draught(RID) is an approved ID from Approved parents. An IDSH is a term we are coining in North America to indicate that this Irish Sport Horse (ISH) has the blood of Irish Draughts in their pedigree. We also have an approval process for IDSH used in breeding and yes they need to have at least 1/4 RID blood and be approved and Registered so their 1/8th ID offspring can be registered. Custom Made is 1/8th ID bred in Ireland with the blood of Ben Purple(RID) as a grandsire. ISH does not necessarily mean there is ANY Irish Draught blood in them at all it is merely the registry of the Irish Horse Board. There is no limit on what breed they are but there is an approval process for stallions in the registry...none for mares at this point. An Irish Sport Horse (ISH) can be pure Dutch Warmblood breeding or Connemara crosses or a RID or all TB but the parents are in the IHB registry.

As to the 18 hand Shire stallion for Sport Horse breeding. While I have no problem with draft cross sport horse programs I personally would not select a stallion of this height. I would be most likely to use an traditional type Shire Draft mare...not the monster tall hitchy modern day Shire or drafts..to a TB or Warmblood maybe Arab stallion. Mare not over 17 hands but very very correct and not with the pitched steep draft hip but a round powerful rump. What I would be looking to get is a sport horse balance with extra substance and bone, a calm temperament, and elegance from the TB. I would do a Google search on Shires and Shire crosses to see the market and the competition. You can have a success with any good program. Emulate the best and find a good mentor. I think the reality of Draft cross breeding in general is that they are less expensive so anything you do that makes the offspring more expensive you will be defeating your purpose. Freezing semen might not pay. If however you stallion has top bloodlines or especially if he has rare bloodlines then I say freeze to help the gene pool of Shires. They are a rare breed and we who do preservation breeding struggle to keep a variety of bloodlines available.

[K & B]

NZ Loopy Lu - I like Debi! Thanks for your helpful comments. Could I please get you to email me how to add the picture the way you did? I had so many requests to see pics, but I'm more handy with a manure rake than this computer stuff http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif mikeoff@naxs.net
Thanks!

[K & B]

NZ Loopy Lu -I like Debi! Thank you for your helpful comments. Could you please email me how to add a picture that way? mikeoff@naxs.net I'm pretty handy with a manure fork, but this computing stuff is a stretch for me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Thanks!

[K & B]

I didn't know what I was getting into when I posted this topic http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Thanks to all of you who have made helpful comments and to those who were offended for me. I just want to add that I already have my own mares {one with a baby due anyday} I only wanted to find out if there would be a market for frozen straws before I spent the bucks. I will add a picture if someone can help this computer dummy out.

[okggo]

K & B, you have to be a premium member to post the pictures (or have webshots or something)- I will send you a quick e-mail- you can e-mail me the pics and I will be glad to post them for you.

My filly’s motto:“when in doubt, run yourself into a frenzy, and impale yourself on a gate.”

[okggo]

K & B - you might want to change the title to state 'now with pictures'.
BTW- Your guy is STUNNING!!!

My filly’s motto:“when in doubt, run yourself into a frenzy, and impale yourself on a gate.”

[okggo]

Another photo

My filly’s motto:“when in doubt, run yourself into a frenzy, and impale yourself on a gate.”

[Draygonfyne]

WOW!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif He is absolutely gorgeous! If I had a thoroughbred mare in need of a man I'd have to give you a call!

Thanks for not being scared off and for sharing the pics.....http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

www.draygonfynedesign.ca (http://www.draygonfynedesign.ca)

[jilltx]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif OMG! My eyes just popped out of my head! What a GORGEOUS horse. Have you crossed him to Shire mares or other breeds? I know you said you had one on the way. Details please!

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
~Jilltx~

http://doobage.redirectme.net/horses/kelly2.jpg

"You've gotta get in to get out" ~Peter Gabriel

[Frank B]

Visualize a 6' person standing next to Bogey's shoulder, and realize his withers would rise 4" above the top of the person's head!

[Jasmine]

OMGIH! I want one! He is gorgeous.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

[Amy]

OMG his neck is so friggin' BIG! Ok he is so friggin BIG! And very pretty too I might add... so any RIDING pics?

I have to say I prefer a 1/2 shire stallion crossed to other mares to produce 1/4 shire... I also think that freezing semen (unless you wanted it for yourself) would not be wise from the $$ sense. I too would not breed a mare by fresh cooled or frozen to market out. I would rather buy a foal if that is what I am looking for. I don't have anything against the crosses at all, but I have seen a lot of variation so I would not breed one for myself. I have been tempted though since Dh is over 6' and he needs a big QUIET horse... though doubt I could part him from his shrimpy tovero paint gelding!

[Gayla]

WOW http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif GORGEOUS

[AstersMom]

Oh WOW! Now I wish I hadn't leased out my TB mare for the next couple of years! He's absolutely stunning! I would LOVE to see more pictures of him!!!!

[djumpers]

K&B,
First off your stallion is very striking. I can alos see why he would be a nice stallion canidate for thoroughbred mare owners.
As far as your frozen semen question, personally I would go to the expense if for nothing else than to have his semen available for when he passes on. I own a percheron stallion that I have shown in recognized USDF and USEA competitions and breed to outside as well as my own light mares (mainly thoroughbreds). It probubally is my location, but I don't have enough outside breeders to justify going to the expense of frozen semen. Have you had your stallion's semen tested? The reason I ask is some stallions can't even ship fresh semen, much less frozen.
Good luck with your beautiful guy!

[NZ Loopy Lu]

He's beautiful! What a baby he and Deb would make - Such a shame you are SOOOoooooo far away!!!!

www.photobucket.com (http://www.photobucket.com) is a great place to store your online photo's if you would like to be able to post links yourself. Check it out.

He's a bit big for me to use over a TB but there seem to be a few COTH members who would be happy to have him sire them foals http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He's a lovely looking chap. I'd love to see pics of him working/ridden.

YUM http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Loopy Lu

Proud member of the IDAC clique
TF Sporthorses (http://www.geocities.com/tfsporthorses/TF_Sporthorses.html)

[JockoHorse]

K & B,

That is one nice shire stallion. Could you tell me his registered name? Is he registered with SHS? Do you AI? I have an open Fox Valley mare that might be in need of his services.

Thanks in advance.

[Sporthorse South]

Sorry, Fred. Having had quite a few conversations with Oldenburg breeding directors about the use of TBs in sporthorse breeding programs, I stand by what I said. By and large, the TB has not been selectively bred FOR GENERATIONS for superior movement, or elasticity, or impulsion (other than at a flat out racing gallop), or self-carriage, or balance, or jumping ability. Yes, there are SOME that are quite nice, but even die-hard TB fans have to admit that the BREED as a whole was developed to run fast - period. Again, sorry if this offends some people, but in the eyes of most experienced sporthorse breeders, TBs in general are not in the same mold as WBs in general because of the difference in breeding goals throughout the development of the breeds. My apoplogies to those of you who love TBs and Shires, but K&B asked for input, so I offered her some. This is not a stallion that would interest me or most of the breeders I know, but judging from the responses here, there are apparently some folks who would consider using a stallion like this, so maybe K&B should just go for it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[jilltx]

Sporthorse South, you should have just quit while you were ahead. Why are you so intent on stiring the pot? It's actually quite simple; if the title of the post says anything other than "warmblood" why don't you just skip over it? Clearly the only thing that interests you is a "warmblood" so why don't you just stick to what interests you and stop insulting the "other" breeds.

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
~Jilltx~

http://doobage.redirectme.net/horses/kelly2.jpg

"You've gotta get in to get out" ~Peter Gabriel

[trailblazer]

Sigh. Warmbloods aren't the only horses bred for "superior movement, elasticity, impulsion, self-carriage, balance, jumping ability." Just because a small percentage of WBs possess those qualities does not mean that no other breeds possess them.

And of course TBs are different from WBs. But if TBs don't have anything to contribute how come WBs have so much TB blood in them?

[Karosel]

I dont think Showjumper thinks that tbs contribute nothing. Afterall, her broodmare band has one or two tbs and even a paint mare.

~Humble pie doesn't taste too good...

[caryledee]

Wow, he is gorgeous!! What size girth does he take? I'd love to see some riding pics too!!

[trailblazer]

I'd like to know what she wants to accomplish by crossing horses bred to run fast with horses bred for superior movement, elasticity, impulsion, self-carriage, balance, etc. What happened to breeding like to like?

[Karosel]

Edited to say: Meh nevermind.

[showjumpers66]

LOL ... I don't think I posted on this topic. I do LIKE this stallion ... quite lovely.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karosel:
I dont think Showjumper thinks that tbs contribute nothing. Afterall, her broodmare band has one or two tbs and even a paint mare.

~Humble pie doesn't taste too good...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quantum Leap Farm (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/)

[Karosel]

Ahh my mistake. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I confused showjumper with sporthorse south.
Im sorry.

~Humble pie doesn't taste too good...

[showjumpers66]

No problem, Karosel! You were right about my mares ... I have a hodge podge.

Quantum Leap Farm (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/)

[carosello]

Back to the original question

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K & B:
I have a gorgeous, 19H, very athletic black Shire stallion that I want to stand to the public for breeding sport horses. I would appreciate any input on whether it is worth the expense to have frozen semen available. Also the most effective advertising ideas. Thanks everybody!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First you need to identify- who is your market? And is your market adept at frozen semen?? there are many people who do not have access to a vet who is qualified also. So for frozen semen I would say no, it wont be worth it.

As for Marketing...your stallion needs to be out there performing and doing well. His record will help sell him. Also I have seem many stallion owners who have foals available that you can either #1 buy or #2 look at to see what he produces.

Personally I think his sheer size alone is enough to scare me away. I remember when I saw Vienna Waltz in person and It hought there is no freakin way I would cover Lucy (my TB mare) with him and he is no way near as masive as your stallion.

His performance will speak if he is good enough to be out there making "sport horse babies" so Im not going to go any further (into the warmblood thing that is). HTH

[jilltx]

Enjoy your warmblood, Lexiboo. If we were to remove the TB blood it contains, I'm certain there would be very little "warmblood" left to support your high and mighty behind.

*superior* I think that one word sums up your attitude pretty nicely.

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
~Jilltx~

http://doobage.redirectme.net/horses/kelly2.jpg

"You've gotta get in to get out" ~Peter Gabriel

[SoNotaDQ]

Wow, he is nice!

I know a local woman who mainly breeds hannoverians. She has a MMB approved TB who one year, she bred to a Grand Prix(dressage) shire. Produced a lovely filly she wishes she would have kept.

Other than that, she has either TBs or Hannoverians and very nice ones at that. So, it isn't like there is NO market for the cross.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Wow, he is larger than life! I think I would come up to his knee! He is lovely! Good luck!

************************************************** *
Amy
Cute as a Bugsear (Bugs) 1986 JC OTTTB (Isella x Annie Somebody)
Pippen (Frodo) 2003 ATA Anglo Trakehner (Paramoure x Cute as a Bugsear)

[K & B]

Carosello - I don't know about the stallion you saw or his owner, but I'd use common sense and say there's no freakin way I would allow my stallion to cover your TB mare - I may offer AI instead tho.

[K & B]

lexiboo - I thought it was plain that I am interested in producing Shire Sport Horses. If everybody continues to breed the same to the same, then no one would accomplish anything new and we would all stay in your rutt.

[carosello]

I think "like to like" is more type to type body styles and not breeding extremes.

I dont mean cover as in live cover..sorry if that was confusing. More that he is just simply so massive. I dont have a problem breeding a 15hh mare to a 16hh or a 16.2hh mare to 17hh stallion but to go that much taller and bigger, to *me* requires to the mare to be of a substantial size herself. I hope this helps to make it clearer. My personal goal is not to go over 17hh on anything I produce...rather I would like to stay in the 16.1-16.2 hand range.

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K & B:
lexiboo - I thought it was plain that I am interested in producing Shire Sport Horses. If everybody continues to breed the same to the same, then no one would accomplish anything new and we would all stay in your rutt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I'm on your side! I was being sarcastic - wondering why there is a double standard for "breeding like to like." If a draft is involved, it's no good, but otherwise it's OK. Hence all of the WB/TB crosses we see out there. I think you and jilltx have misunderstood me. Sorry for any confusion.

[HSGFarms]

Sorry I don't usally get involved in negative post but this one is for you SportHorse South!!

I guess not all of us know our warmbloods as good as you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifThese very important stallion listed below have been a big part in developing the warmblood of today. And yes you still see TB crosses in the first to five generations in todays sport horse! I am not a DIE HARD Fan of TB's but I do like adding them to my breeding mix and I also like to give credit when credit is due!!

Furiosoxx + Dame de Ranville produced Furioso11 and Mexico.

Orange Peelxx + Velleda produced The last Orange.

LadyKillerxx + Warthburg produced Landgraf 1.

LadyKillerxx + Viola(her sire is also TB Cottage Sonxx) produced Lord.

Rantzauxx + Quenotte produced Cor de la Bryere.

And the list goes on, Lucky Boy, LadyKiller,SailingLight,Nearic,Nearco, Furioso,CottageSon,FoxLight,Abgar,Sacramento Song,LoneBeach,Princequillo,TurnTo,Hyperion,
Prince John,Ramez,Uppercut,Ultimate Ect....And many many more have contributed to the Warmblood breed of today. But As an Experiance Warmblood breeder you would know this. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Off hand I can think of 3 Top stud farms in Europe that offer TB Stallions to there clients.
VDL offers French Buffetxx and Pharonxx, Nijhof offers Rovenxx and Zucht-Schaufenster offer a lovely Stallion Sevillanoxx. I have been told there are many other stud farms that have TB Stallions to offer mare owners in Europe. Do you think if these great breeding farms and producers of Sport horses did not feel that the TB is worth adding to there program they would not be doing it.They have had success with adding the TB to the heavier horse.

I am so glad that the European breeders where not so close minded about using TB blood in the great breeding programs they have created.If they where we would have missed out on some of these great horses of yesterday and today!

And it is to bad the Oldenburg directors you where speaking to see it this way http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gifWhen I spoke to them last they seemed more than happy to register my TB cross foals as long as they inspected my mare of coarse. I think I will think twice before I register any of my foals with them thanks for letting me know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's just to bad people can be so close minded a good horse is a good horse no matter what the breed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[This message was edited by HSGFarms on Apr. 08, 2004 at 02:06 AM.]

[Maren]

HSGFarms, good point. And you're very right about the need to TB in modern warmblood breeding.
however, the type of European TB that is crossed into the breeds over here is VERY different to the type of race horse TB that is predominant in the US. That needs to be kept in mind. And to many, is the reason why the influence of some European TBs is much more signififcant. Sevillano xx is a neat example!

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

[K & B]

JockoHorse - Thank you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Wandamere Humphrey Bogart reg w/ ASHA you are welcome to email me for more info. mikeoff@naxs.net

[K & B]

I suspect that I needed to have given more details in the beginning. I did not mean to start such controversary. Whether this stallion is bred to any type mares or not is not up for debate. I am breeding to both light & heavy mares and plan to continue breeding my stallion. All I wanted to know was if there'd be enough interest to warrent the expense of freezing semen. I have bred him to my 15.3H TB mare with my vet's assurance that she will control the birth size. Thank all of you for your input.

[Sporthorse South]

Jeez, some of you people sure are touchy! I'm not trying to "stir the pot", but simply offering my opinion. K&B asked for opinions, and I gave her mine. Her stallion may indeed be lovely, but he is what he is - a Shire (and a darned big one, at that). Like it or not, Shires have not been selectively bred FOR GENERATIONS for sporthorse qualities, nor have TBs. If you folks want to continue to disagree with those facts, then fine. It's also fine if some of you want to try to reinvent the wheel by crossing drafts and TBs in hopes of getting good sporthorses. No doubt you will get some that will be successful amateur mounts at lower levels, but crossing such dissimilar types, who were developed for such dissimilar roles, is way too much of a cr@pshoot for me. Heck, it's hard enough to get a top quality foal out of two top quality warmbloods (which HAVE been selectively bred for generations for sporthorse qualities). At any rate, as I said - apparently there are plenty of you out there that want to breed to K&B's stallion, so I guess she has her answer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Fred]

well, Sport Horse South, there are opinions, and there are "pronouncements" - there is a big difference... you just go ahead though, and let those Oldenburg directors tell you what to think..http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
What constitutes "superior movement"? balance? jumping ability? ATHLETICISM?? Every statement you have made indicates smug ignorance and arrogance...Tell you what, the day you breed a better Sporthorse than the rest of us poor schlubs,( who according to you, know nothing, AND don't do any 'research' - give me a call....
and Maren, sorry, you perhaps just don't know enough about Thoroughbred bloodlines if you can make a statement like that... I get very tired of the European TB/ North American TB dichotomy. If you look at ANY Thoroughbred, the breeding is international.. the TB is the epitome of the jetsetter - the difference is in the INDIVIDUALS, and in the influence of various individuals in a pedigree.. as it is in any breed.
I need another coffee...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[hookedoneventing]

How can you think that Thoroughbreds are not sport horses when all you have to do is look at the top eventers. I would venture to say that most are thoroughbreds. Or, what about Irish sport horses (Irish draughts--granted much lighter in build then the shire crossed with a thoroughbred). The warmbloods are not the only thing out there. I do agree that a lot of them make nice sport horses, but as an eventer I would edge on the side of thoroughbreds as top competitors.

[AuntieSha]

K&B- I am so glad that you will not be deterred by any of the negativity toward crosses. Your shire is lovely. And I would love to see the product of his crossing... I wish you had a website for all of us computer addicts that love to web-surf and dream about our next horse...

I know that there are many opponents that believe that the European way is the only way... but I must applaud, as I have in the past, the "American Warmblood" breeders who have an eye for what crosses well, and the courage to make that cross happen. And as long as there is a market of people who wants to give a breeder's horses lifetime love and partnership (such as I have seen in the Shire-cross market), then why shouldn't they breed for that horse? Especially when that crossing results in a beautiful, sound, powerful, balanced, graceful and athletic horse that is truly an improvement to their breed.

-Shannon
My Roxy (http://www.oneofakindhorse.com/roxypage.htm) (TB/Shire x HAN)

[Maren]

Fred,

didn't mean to offend you. But I have had my share of TBs around me and there IS a distinct difference in phenotype, not always, surely not, but often. Yes, the bloodlines are international. But you will find much less Northern Dancer or Bold Ruler in the Europeans as compared to lets say Raufbold, Alchimist or Bürgermeister, just to name those that really put a different foundation on TBs over here.

I love TBs and have some in my barn that I actively breed, this is not intended to be a TB bashing, it's simply noting a dinstinct difference that exists, like it or not.

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

[Fred]

hi Maren, I didn't mean to offend you either. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Of course you will find &lt;some&gt; different names in the pedigrees... but I disagree strongly that there is a European Tb as opposed to a NA TB. You mentioned ND and Bold Ruler (ND is a Canadian bred, but as we all know one of the most influential of TB stallions) In the heyday of bigbuck yearling prices, the ND sons got bought up by the sheiks (based in England and Ire) and people like Robert Sangster.. the most notable of these sons is Nijinski -a big rawboned individual (also a Canadian Bred)http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - who has in many ways epitomized what many people think of as the European TB..
You mentioned Bold Ruler, would that be the same Bold Ruler (by the English Nasrullah, by the Italian Nearco?.. the same Bold Ruler who is the sire of Bold Bidder, who is the sire of Spectacular Bid, who is the sire of (I think) Mytens?.. just wondering...
not trying to fight, or get the last word in.. I'm sure there are going to be many more 'words' http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Germany was not exactly a hot bed of TB race breeding, nor, interestingly are Holland, Sweden, etc..interesting that these are the leading WB breeding countries... does any one hear the word 'marketing'? ...
I really don't want to argue.. I love many warmbloods, and I am not trying to get the old WB vs TB thing going - I just hate these pronouncements denigrating Thoroughbreds... a good horse is a good horse... I have read many of your posts Maren, and you always sound very thoughtful and considered.
I really resent *some people* telling the rest of us that we don't know what we are doing.. and that we are not breeding 'superior' horses... where is the damn kiss my ass icon when you need it?

case in point, I was talking to a German Trakehner breeder who has recently moved to Canada.. she said, and I quote, " I don't mind some Thoroughbreds, but they are so stupid..".... I choked.. um....hmmm....

going out now to work with some of those inferior animals I bust my butt to raise...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Chaser]

Accondy is a TB stallion approved by the British Hannoverian Society and has Northern Dancer as his grandsire.

He looks like a substantial sort to my eye.

Accondy (http://www.summerhillstud.co.uk/accondy.html)

Look at the mare & foal jumping pic here!:

Progeny (http://www.summerhillstud.co.uk/progeny.html)

[Maren]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Germany was not exactly a hot bed of TB race breeding <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent point, Fred! And I agree. And I think there IS your difference already....the long-track, steeplechaser as opposed to the sprinter. And that comes through in more than just individuals...the TB losers in germany are usually the ones I have an eye on http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I do not listen to this "good horse-bad horse" stuff...gee, I breed Trakehners with lots of TB, can you imagine what my life would be like if I listend to all these "temperament" gurus??
TBs rock, no matter where. I just firmly believe you have to pick them on a wise conformation bases if you look for WB crosses. That's all. Nothing about character...they are the best!

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

[Equibrit]

Fred - Check PMs

[hansiska]

And for those of you who want to continue the TB/WB Debate, check out this thread (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=2096094911&m=779607281) over on the Eventing BB...
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Robby Johnson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:
I am very sorry if I offended people in my previous response. I was not trying to be rude, but was instead trying to point out that a 19h Shire stallion is probably not going to attract a lot of interest from serious, dedicated, experienced sporthorse breeders. Again, while there are certainly some lovely draft / TB crosses around that are fairly successful in low-level sport horse discplines, these are far more often the exception than the rule. In fact, I've seen quite a few draft / TB crosses of various types over the past 10-20 years, and quite honestly, there are maybe only one or two that stick out in my mind as really nice sporthorse specimens - the rest just did nothing for me. Again, I apologize for offending anyone, but I will leave you with this analogy from the dog breeding world - if you want to produce good gun dogs, it doesn't make sense to start with a St. Bernard sire and a Greyhound dam. Yes, you might get lucky and get one or two that can do an adequate job of pointing, flushing, and /or retrieving game, but you will be so much further ahead if you start with the breeds that have been selectively bred for this type of work for generations. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

California Clique, step-in here. Who is the successful show-jumping mare, imported from New Zealand, who is a draft/TB cross?

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

[Rockin']

K&B in response to your question speaking from personal experience and based on the fact that your stallion from his photos appears to be a very stunning individual I would definitely consider freezing semen on him for your own use if nothing else.If heaven forbid something were to happen to him you would have in effect an insurance policy.
Many years ago I decided that the horse for me was a Thorodale so I went to a breeder who had been producing this cross for over 25 years I had to wait several years for mine to arrive as hers always sold very quickly due to their reputation.I have never regretted my decision as my mare has exceeded my expectations ,she is everything I could possibly want in a horse and will be with me till one of us leaves this world.Interestingly enough she is obviously what alot of other people want as I have been stopped numerous times at shows/clinics with inquiries as to her breeding and where they too could obtain a horse like her.I find it all very amusing when people guess her to be a European Warmblood and I tell them she is not ,rather an American Warmblood... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Top trainers such as Lucinda Green( who told me a jumper person would make me an offer on her that would make my head spin),Bruce Davidson,Walter Zettl have all been impressed by her movement and athleticsm.She has received in her dressage tests 9's for movement.Her Grandsire was 19HH+ and her sire was 18HH+ tall.She herself is 17HH and is by a Clydesdale stallion out of a TB mare which is the recommended way to go to obtain a more refined horse.
Her first foal which is a 3/4TB-1/4Clyde took Grand Supreme Champion at her first show in Ohio so as you can see these horse do have the ability to go out there do the job and do it well.
Whatever you do there will always be naysayers.I find it is best to just ignore them, believe in what you are doing and go out there and prove them wrong.Best of luck with your handsome lad..!!!

[NZ Loopy Lu]

Hi Robby,

The SJ mare is Lu Thomas' mare - NZ Madison http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Loopy Lu

Proud member of the IDAC clique
TF Sporthorses (http://www.geocities.com/tfsporthorses/TF_Sporthorses.html)

[jilltx]

I remember another horse name "Forget Not", or "Chunky" competing in the 80's at the upper levels of eventing on the east coast under a BNT. He was 1/2 Clyde and 1/2 TB (Thorodale). I can't remember the trainers name, but perhaps someone will remember him and speak up here. He was apparently quite the character and VERY talented. His owner/breeder had several other half siblings of this guy that I knew and they were all very talented and nice.

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
~Jilltx~

http://doobage.redirectme.net/horses/kelly2.jpg

"You've gotta get in to get out" ~Peter Gabriel

[cbrand]

I think the nicest draft cross is Saddlebred + draft.

Flying W farms has been breeding this cross for a few years and they have been very successful. Check out some of the horses they produced:

http://www.flyingwfarms.com/temp/references/thumbs.html

[Fairview Horse Center]

Well, I don't know anything about Shires, but he is, in my opinion one of the nicest Shire (or draft for that matter) horses I have ever seen a photo of. I would think that his #1 priority would be to preserve his lines to breed more just like him. He is awesome! Surely the Shire breeders are interested in him? I would love to see a smaller version exactly like him.

To evaluate his worth for crossing, you need to wait until you have several crosses on the ground to see how that goes.

There is a HUGE market for draft crosses, but unfortunately the PMU foals keep the prices down so low that it doesn't really pay to breed them. I think you will see a bigger and bigger market for draft crosses for amateur low level sporthorses as the "modern type" of Warmbloods get hotter and hotter.

Many people just don't want to get hurt anymore, but still want to ride and show at lower levels. There are at least 100 people showing at local shows for every one that is showing Recognized in any discipline.

For people that want to ride on weekends, show 5 or 6 shows in the summer - usually multi disciplines, trail ride after a month off for snow/cold since they don't have an indoor, draft crosses will be snatched up.

The biggest difference in riding a horse bred for generations for the job, is the ease of training and results. When you can take a horse that has been broke for 8 to 12 weeks, and score a 70% in Training Level, as opposed to taking lessons on a horse for 3 to 4 years hoping to break 60% at a schooling show, the rewards are rapid and exciting. Not everyone needs that however. Many people just enjoy the process, are out to have fun, and don't expect to be the next Olympic medalist. They are thrilled with a 5th place ribbon in a schooling show on a fun horse.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[Fairview Horse Center]

BTW, I do know of an excellent use for Shire/TB crosses. Here is a Nevada filly out of a Shire/TB mare http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[showjumpers66]

I visited their website ... holy cow, they have a lot of babies http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif 82 yearlings! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It was really hard to look at the pictures as most of the movement photos were set at an angle.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cbrand:
I think the nicest draft cross is Saddlebred + draft.

Flying W farms has been breeding this cross for a few years and they have been very successful. Check out some of the horses they produced:

http://www.flyingwfarms.com/temp/references/thumbs.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quantum Leap Farm (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/)

[cbrand]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The biggest difference in riding a horse bred for generations for the job, is the ease of training and results. When you can take a horse that has been broke for 8 to 12 weeks, and score a 70% in Training Level, as opposed to taking lessons on a horse for 3 to 4 years hoping to break 60% at a schooling show, the rewards are rapid and exciting.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you saying that "warmbloods" can have only 8 to 12 weeks of training under saddle and can go out and pull down Training Level scores in the 70's?!?! Please provide references. I personally have not seen this.

In fact, the only horse I know that was able to do so well with so little training, was my saddlebred gelding who with only 6 months of dressage training (that's with an AA taking one lesson every other week)was able to come out at Training level with a score of 72%. Of course... saddlebreds have been bred since the 1850's to be great riding horses! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To get back on track, I just thought of another Saddlebred/Shire cross. There is one here in Colorado owned by Cathy Peterson (an equine photographer). She bred the horse herself from her saddlebred mare. Last year at Championships, she won her Training level class with a score in the high 60's. I believe there were around 35 riders in that class.

[Fred]

Back to the Shire horse, how handsome is he! I have always loved Shires - so majestic looking.
There is a very heartwarming story about the resurgence of the Shire breed, Of course after mechanization and after WW1 and WW11, things were tough in Britain, and the costs of keeping and maintaining large draft breeds - when they no longer really had 'jobs' - became prohibitive.. and the Shire nearly died out.
I used to live in England, and from what I can remember, there was one large brewery which, in an effort to support the Shire breed started to breed them and use them for deliveries... does any one have any more details about this?
The cost of freezing (back to my original post) is not that much, relatively speaking. One freeze should give you quite a few straws, and if you did a couple of collections just to freeze, again it would be good insurance for the future. I mean both for you, and for your breed.
Good luck with him.

[This message was edited by Fred on Apr. 11, 2004 at 08:23 AM.]

[Rockin']

Forgot to mention several years ago a 3/4TB-1/4Clyde cross took top 2 year old honors at the Detroit Motor City show,her name was Nightingale Sang.Does anyone know whatever happened to her.She was stunning.

[2Dogs]

seems to me that what everyone is trying to say is that the history for the draft crosses is so much shorter that the outcomes are not very predictable. Breeding takes years of experiment to figure out what works and dang, we stil end up only getting a superstar once and awhile, even with the best of bloodlines and history.
That said, one place the draft crosses do show up regularly is in the hunt field. They may be getting more exposure in the dressage arena and I've seen some great jumpers - like Lu's horse, NZ Madison.
I have my own personal history with one of the coolest horses I have ever owned - a Perch/TB cross. Fantastic horse. Personality up the whazoo and jumped every fence the same. So, if you want to take a gander with a cross, do it. But as others have said, you also have a fabuloous stallion of an ever increasingly rare breed, so you might want to also use him to perpetuate a wonderful line.
And to everyone else - chill on the "sporthorse" bash thread.

"Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog".
Judith Collas