Olympic Champion Fails Drug Test! [Archive]

Weatherford

Oct. 23, 2004, 11:26 AM

Several rumours are floating around Ireland (floating, no, I mean FLYING!). But I won't go there (yet.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Meanwhile, there is some new stuff from Belgium that supposedly "doesn't test" that "all the lads are happily using" ( quote from a source who is definitely close to it - and believe me, he was rolling his eyes as he said it!)... Gee, does THAT SOUND FAMILIAR??? (Warning to you pros going to Florida - the Belgian stuff DOES test, and if it doesn't now, it certainly WILL by the time YOU get to FL! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )... But, this may not have been Cian's prohibited substance, as there is another strong rumour about it from the continent.

On top of all that, the FEI announced yesterday (in today's paper) that another 11 horses have tested positive for the same (still unnamed) substance. The way the article read left me questioning if that was from the Olympic horses or FEI horses in general, however.

Sorry state of affairs, AFAIC! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

JusJumpIt

Oct. 23, 2004, 01:57 PM

This topic always brings out strong feelings in horsemen and women. I think you have to have all the facts before making a judgement call, and you have to see that even this issue has two sides. A million years ago, I was just starting out training and showing, I felt ANY drugs were BAD, either cheating or allowing a horse to work and "break down" by masking pain. I lived in a small, SW state, we had one or two B shows for the whole year. I spent the next 25 years on the east coast, learning, growing, training and showing. I thought if you did not give the 14 year old Childrens jumper a bute, you were just plain mean. I think we should not rush to judgement, untill the split samples have both been tested and both are positive we should not judge. That said, trying to excuse away a positive result by implying it was only applied topically or the "vet did it", or any other justification, is wrong. The first time we had a horse showing under FEI Drug and Medication rules I was on the phone to 800-med-ahsa (still the number by the way) almost everyday. I was not going to leave it up to my vet, tack shop or any other 3rd party to tell me what they think is legal or not. When I had any question about a drug or medication the staff at the Drugs and Medications department were always willing to help in any way they could. A ZERO tolerance is just that.

fmk

Oct. 24, 2004, 10:32 AM

i'm aware of a lot of the rumours - coming from both camps - relating to the o'connor story.

and i'm very much aware of the strong feelings such a story can bring out in people.

out of genuine interest, i would like to know how serious the issue of doping in equestrianism really is. is it a few bad apples or is it widespread? are the fei too harsh in their attitude, as many of the defenders of cian o'connor are saying, or do they have the support of the majority of the sport's participants on this issue?

Weatherford

Oct. 24, 2004, 11:39 AM

Do as seach on this BB and you will get LOTS of interesting comments! And, since you are located over here (Ireland), rather than the US, you might want to read some of the information on the US Federation website - and even chat with the two vets who are most involved with the Drugs and Meds program - Dr. John Lengel and Dr. Kent Allen. They have interesting, and of course, very educated views on the subject. As well as a lot of background information and numbers from the US testing programs.

I, for one, have mixed feelings about the FEI policy. I don't think horse SHOULD be competing if they have to be medicated, and certainly at the top levels, they should be drug free - for their own sakes, as well as their riders'. There ARE alternatives to drugs for many of the problems that can happen at horse shows - from using an oatmeal bath for hives (rather than azium/dexamethazone - ask Dr. Allen about that! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) to using accupuncture for all sorts of problems. I really fear allowing low levels of bute at the highest levels of competition is simply asking for horses to break down... But, I may be alone in this opinion!

I do believe medication is rampant at all levels of competition - certainly it is in the US. And I was shocked to discover recently how many foxhunters used a sedative (acepromazine) on their horses! I can't imagine doing that when I was foxhunting all the time growing up. And I have seen local circuit type VERY quiet horses ace'd simply because their OWNERS/RIDERS are nervous. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

This will start a fight, for sure! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Welcome to the BB.

Old School

Oct. 24, 2004, 12:12 PM

Jair and others, links to this issue have been up on CleanRound.com since last week, and updates will be posted there too...

This is just the dope chickens coming home to roost. Tough, well-enforced, drug testing for horses is something the sport has needed for a long time, and has resisted for a long time (the AHSA did not disintegrate because it was proactive and GOOD, LMAO). Since we haven't done this (uh, maybe because of community ... apathy?) now the sport is paying and will pay a HUGE penalty in terms of public support. It might, just might, be the first real nail in the coffin. Way. To. Go.

Not only did these PR disasters occur with top name riders during the high-interest Olympic Games, but also in the countries with the largest public following of the sport: Ireland and Germany.

Audi has ended their long-time sponsorship of equestrian sport - was this related? In any case, this is quite unbelievably bad.

The US industry is at the forefront of this debacle. We lead, others follow. We must support strong enforcement of tough drug testing, and perhaps not lump it in with less equine-damaging crimes like not paying show expenses.

Glimmerglass

Oct. 24, 2004, 02:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
Tough, well-enforced, drug testing for horses is something the sport has needed for a long time, and has resisted for a long time ..

[snip]

The US industry is at the forefront of this debacle. We lead, others follow. We must support strong enforcement of tough drug testing, and perhaps not lump it in with less equine-damaging crimes like not paying show expenses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the US is to blame for Ireland and Germany failing tests that the US did not? Seriously I'd love to see an explanation of this logic. Any global fallout in PR for the sport has NOTHING to do with the US.

The US's role in the FEI is, IMHO, not nearly as powerful as the European players. To suggest we (USA) are the ones who run this sport globally is beyond absurd.

I think if anything a greater balance of what drugs (non performance enhancing) are acceptable in what amounts will have to be developed and a zero tollerance policy - which is idiotic - will be phased out.

fmk

Oct. 24, 2004, 02:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Do as seach on this BB and you will get LOTS of interesting comments!

[snip]

This will start a fight, for sure! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Welcome to the BB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanx for the welcome, and i hope people don't mind me coming in and asking about this subject, but as you can imagine, there's a bit of a "news vacuum" on the cian story (most of that vacuum coming from cian, sadly) over here.

i've had a good rummage around the board, and mostly found the posts enlightening. from what i can see, the majority of people around here are in the anti-drugs camp, which is nice to see (ask the same question of cyclists and you'll get a much different picture).

re the belgian concoction - that's funny, in an odd way. at the height of cycling's festina scandal in 1998, it was a cocktail called the "belgian mix" (as well as epo) which was at the heart of much of the story (that was a mix of amphetamines, coke and caffeine). what is it with belgium and sports drugs?

by and large, equestrianism seems to be a relatively clean sport. given how far down the list it was on getting the tests processed, it doesn't seem to be one of the sports worrying the ioc/wada too much.

a large part of the problem though does seem to be people not following the fei's protocols to the letter, looking partic at the german cases here (apparent verbal permission but no paper trail). is it partly a case of members just not realising how serious the issue is, across a spectrum of sports, and the major impact wada are having across all sports.

Old School

Oct. 24, 2004, 02:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:

So the US is to blame for Ireland and Germany failing tests that the US did not? Seriously I'd love to see an explanation of this logic. Any global fallout in PR for the sport has NOTHING to do with the US.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The United States is the world's sole current superpower. Yes, our leadership matters - and so does our LACK of leadership.

Our American attitude is to look the other way when it comes to success. All I can say is, I am VERY glad it wasn't Mclain. Is this enough said?

I do agree that zero tolerance is idiotic.

Old School

Oct. 24, 2004, 03:04 PM

fmk: "is it partly a case of members just not realising how serious the issue is, across a spectrum of sports, and the major impact wada are having across all sports."

I wonder this too. It seems like equestrian sport is cleaner than most, and has grappled with the doping issue for years. To have so many tests show positive so quickly - O'Connor, Beerbaum, Hoy, others too ... Shutterfly before the Olympics. Why now? Did something change?

Glimmerglass

Oct. 24, 2004, 03:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
The United States is the world's sole current superpower. Yes, our leadership matters - and so does our LACK of leadership.

Our American attitude is to look the other way when it comes to success. All I can say is, I am VERY glad it wasn't Mclain. Is this enough said? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The United States' position in the world from an economic, cultural and/or military position means next to nothing (if not a hindrance) when it comes to equine regulation and the greater global sporting body. My word please don't be so provincial!

If you truly think we are all that and a bag of chips then tell me why in dressage we've never won a gold medal? I don't think its due to a lack of skill rather the judging bias - in which case being an American isn't great, is it?

Last I checked the US just finally recently gained entry into the Super League for jumping - by earning it. Why weren't we in there before if we are so all powerful? Rules are still rules and last I checked most of the rules and governance is under the FEI which as I said before (and will say again) the US is not the "big dog" in that body.

As for the mention of McLain Ward are you trying to infer something nefarious with him at Athens? I really wouldn't go there whatsoever.

Old School

Oct. 24, 2004, 03:35 PM

Glimmerglass, I'm sorry I answered you. I'm not here to trade insults, I am expressing an opinion.

"As for the mention of McLain Ward are you trying to infer something nefarious with him at Athens? I really wouldn't go there whatsoever."

So, I'll go there.

I don't like the fact that the son of a felon who killed horses for insurance money just represented my nation in Olympic competition. I don't like the fact that McLain was caught putting chips in his horses boots and was banned from Aachen, and that his inclusion in our team forced the ban to be lifted. I don't like it. No one asks me, no one cares what the public thinks, but it bothers me. Yes he should have a fair chance, yes he deserves to make it on his own without paying for the sins of his father. But that family should not represent my country in equestrian sport, IMO. That's MY opinion. I respect yours, but that's mine.

findeight

Oct. 24, 2004, 03:55 PM

We are no superpower in Equestrian Sports and none will follow our lead based on our International performance over the past 15 years or so.
This is the first year we have returned to a true competitive level.

Horse people will follow the lead of horse people who win, not their respective country's political activity.

The point has been raised that these tests are so sensitive they will detect something used for a valid reason 6 weeks earlier...maybe that's hogwash. Maybe it makes the point our competition partners are entitled to proper medical care with a decent interval before competition.

This skin cream thing seems so very odd....but why ever would Bettina not make the connection between what she rubbed (or had rubbed) on her horse's back for swelling and what happens when we humans take the same product-Benedryl...the active ingredient in most OTC sleep products and Tylenol PM. I take the stuff I am zonked.

But, then again, why would you want to sedate a CC horse?????

I am not entirely anti drug and have no problem with LOW level NSAIDs IF DECLARED.
But I certainly am against running a gimpy horse into the ground with them as well as any drug that effects the actual performance.

Right now, some of those positives state they used something over 8 weeks out for legitimate reasons that still tested.
That's their story and they are sticking to it...but maybe that's the truth....and maybe it's not.

I have no idea but will follow with interest.

nutmeg

Oct. 24, 2004, 07:57 PM

I'm the last person to be jingoistic and flag-waving, but in defense of America let me say that the first time I saw a European groom give a horse a Giant Booby by accident with a dodgy tranquilizer, I and all my compadres were Learning Something New. I'd say the US was about 10 years behind Belgium in the chemistry department. Yes we are being slow in addressing the problem, but it was our delightful and trusting natures that caused us to be slow to recognize the scope of it.
And as for that Belgian advantage, it started about 20 years ago with the advent of the European Community and their strict regulations on steroids and antibiotics in livestock. The enterprising Belgians came up with concoctions to mask what they were giving the cows to make them so fat-arsed. Then the cyclists got ahold of it, and all hell broke loose. Don't make me produce evidence, its from old ag newspapers stacked in a bathroom somewhere in Holland.

Other

Oct. 24, 2004, 08:32 PM

I just re-opened this thread, and it has taken a turn that literally made me laugh out loud!

I'm certainly not trying to single out any individual posters, but I can't POSSIBLY fathom anyone truly believing that the US is any kind of superpower in the riding world. Or, well-the show jumping world. I don't know squat about other types of riding, but come on...

I'd say that this Olympics was wonderful for us in terms of improving our reputation in the global riding community. I'd also say that we are up there in the ranks-I mean, we have a Super League team and we have some really nice horses and some really nice money backing some of them.

However, Europe has us hands down beat when it comes to top-level jumpers. They have their breeding, training, and crowd support down to a science. We look to them for our horses, and for their training techniques. There's a reason why our top riders go tour Europe. There's a reason our horses come from there.

And about Mclean-he rode beautifully in Athens. You are free to make your own decisions about him as a person, (although I really take issue with judging someone based on their family relations-you have no control over what family you're born into), but we don't pick athletes to represent our country based on their looks, personalities, behavior, or morals. We pick them because they are the best at what they do.

Linus

Oct. 24, 2004, 11:03 PM

This is bugging me.

How do you pronounce "Cian"?

tom

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:27 AM

KEY-in.

Irish Ei's

Oct. 25, 2004, 06:30 AM

This may seem stupid, naive or whatever but are they also testing the water supply to the barns? I cannot imagine that so many International Horses are testing positive. How or why any countries Team would even consider, much less indulge in illegal practices is beyond my inexperienced mind. Say it ain't so!!!

JFJ

Oct. 25, 2004, 06:46 AM

Believe you me, they are always looking for "things" that will "work" and not test. There is always something new and it's not in the water. People are so quick to judge those who have been caught but if you've spent anytime with International showing you would know far more are guilty then innocent. Does that make it okay, no but that is the way it is. At least horses get tested and things do come up so maybe it gets harder to "cheat". Being cynical as I am, I have a hard time beleiveing the stories.."a little cut being treated" or "it was supposed to be out of the system by then". I'll bet you they just thought it wouldn't show up pure and simple.

Glimmerglass

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
This may seem stupid, naive or whatever but are they also testing the water supply to the barns? I cannot imagine that so many International Horses are testing positive <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa - lets look at the facts. All the parties who were tested positive have admitted to administering a respective substance that contained the positive drug in each case. Those are the facts. These are not situations whereby the rider/barn/vet claims "how ever did that get there?"

Goldfever was being treated for an abrasion in his fetlock, hence the presence of betamethasone in the ointment. Ringwood Cockatoo treated with a lotion that contained benadryl thus the presence of an antihistamine. Waterford Crystal given a sedative before a procedure to his fetlock.

frankie

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:15 AM

"Being cynical as I am, I have a hard time beleiveing the stories.."a little cut being treated" or "it was supposed to be out of the system by then". I'll bet you they just thought it wouldn't show up pure and simple."

You are exactly correct JFJ. What people need to understand is that the answers these riders are giving are totally BS. As if someone at that level who has ridden FEI for all those years didn't know what kind of ointment they can put on their horses leg. The best part is they all say "our team vet said it was perfectly legal"......AS IF their team vet was a moron. Come on these vets are the best in the world they know what is legal and what is not. But for the right price they will try anything.

And isn't anyone else laughing at the fact that 1 day after the Olympics Cians horse is out in the field? He has some stupid excuse on his website saying that all the Irish give their horses the winter off. Yeah maybe true, but not when it is a 5 million dollar horse. I will bet he wanted that horse out ASAP to clear his system ASAP. And whether it is true or not there is a lot more info going around on German websites about the abuse his horse put up with. Forget this "sample A and sample B blah, blah, blah" these people are guilty and they deserve to be punished appropriatly. One day the Olympic Committee will vote equestrain disciplines out of the olympics and these top riders will be the ones to blame.

So do we still think that Ludger Beerbaum deserved to carry the flag for Germany in the opening ceremonies? And didn't Mr. Morris refer to him as the horseman of the century? drugs are not my idea of horsemanship.

All I can say is that the DOKR (german olympic commitee) must believe their riders are guilty because they canceled a big ceremony they were supposed to have in honor of their athletes.

What Kim Severson said in one interview is what makes this whole scandal so unfair. These riders had their 15 minutes of glory standing on the podium listening to their own national anthem . It doesn't matter if you go back home and weeks later someone mails you a silver or gold medal. The olympics are all about the MOMENT and the FEELING. Bettina Hoy, Cian O'Connor and possibly Ludger Beerbaum robbed their fellow equestrians of a once in a lifetime feeling....and that is what hurts me the most. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
just blowing off some steam......
feel free to disagree and claim it is in the water. or better yet maybe someone hired a "hitman" to drug these top horses....

findeight

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Irish Ei's:
..... testing the water supply to the barns? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that's right. It's being slipped in the water.
And the team vets were just following orders.

They cheated. They got caught.

lauriep

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:56 AM

frankie, if you think our country is any better or worse than the Europeans that you are referring to, "Come out of the forest, Bambi." EVERY country is guilty to some extent. Some got caught at the Olympics, but wait a little longer and there may be some more "news" that will cast an even broader net. Besides getting nice horses from Europe, what else do you think comes across the pond?

Old School

Oct. 25, 2004, 09:03 AM

I don’t fully blame the riders. It is the responsibility of managing leadership to set a fair playing field. I was appalled at the AHSA’s response in the 1980’s to the greatest failure of trust possible in their realm—killing healthy horses for insurance money. I don’t think such sins can be swept under the rug without consequence, as was apparently hoped.

I was a coach for ten years, and I loved it in spite of the grind. The reason I left was because of the corruption. It took a while, but I finally saw the handwriting and didn’t like it. Some stayed and played. Now we are going to nail them up?

I don’t believe it is only the riders or trainers. Unlike the sport’s “leadership” of my early days, they are doing their job. Many customers simply want to win and will look at you with a cheerful mix of denial and deference as long as life is running smoothly. Life running smoothly usually means winning, and sadly, drugs can improve the success rate. The problem is that, in a free market, the trainers who use drugs, overall, will do better than those who don’t. Customers want to win, drugs improve the success rate, horses and everything around them is expensive: the math is simple. In an un-policed industry, the drug-using approach takes over.

This has happened now. It is unfair to make Cian O’Connor the scapegoat for the industry’s failure. The leadership entrusted with managing the sport has too often “looked the other way.” By allowing the sport to remain to bob unprotected in the free market and not vehemently enforcing standards, we have come to a place where drug use is rampant. Blaming Cian or Ludger is easy, but incomplete.

America is no longer a dominant powerhouse in equestrian sport, and this year was our first return to the top since … well, since the horse-killing scandals. (!) But the world looks to the success of America and wants to emulate it. This modeling goes beyond who is winning in a given year.

It is my belief that if we had the right leadership—and we may have it now—when the horse killing scandals erupted those involved would have been publicly hauled up and thrown well and truly out, even if it uprooted half the sport. Then equestrian sport could have renewed its public image and emerged stronger, cleaner, a true holder in trust of civilization’s most sacred partnership.

But we didn’t do that. We never cleaned house. The rank and file horse people of that time never demanded it. The criminals scuttled away, mostly, except for the few that got caught underfoot. It was deemed by some of our leadership that they, and their pocketbooks and situations, were more important than preserving the integrity of horsemanship in the public’s eye. Our predecessors killed the golden goose. The AHSA is dead, our spectator shows have dwindled … this was the price of our corruption.

Such crimes demand honest and public repentance. The sport didn’t do that, so we are seeing the fruition. Reading that McLain Ward was banned for horse abuse at Aachen made me remember the saying ‘the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.’ Are we to pretend otherwise … are we expected to be fools?

Fundamentally, it is an issue of respect. Had McLain never been convicted of infraction he could compete with honor, but given his own violations and considering his connections, no! He isn’t our best. It is a privilege to ride for the flag, not a right or a backroom deal. McLain Ward had unsportsmanlike conduct in his career and a dark family history. This is not basketball or pro wrestling. Horsemanship is a tradition, one that has lifted mankind from the caves. There are other top riders of good character to place on our team—what message did this choice send to our young riders? Cheat, it will be okay later? The ends justify the means?

That our sport has such shade in its reasoning to select such a man is the real cause behind the doping scandals. The insult is real to me. Our sport seems to be saying not only will we let them kill horses, we’ll put them on the Olympic team! Unbe-lievable. People have gotten the wrong impression of equestrian sport because they had the right idea about its leadership.

There can be a happier ending. This is a tremendous time of opportunity for equestrian sport. The old criminals never repented, but the world turns and change is in the air. Young leadership is taking charge and needs the community’s support. It has been shown painfully that drugs and the wrong-doers have to be controlled, because the cost of not doing so may be the sport itself. The foxhunters have shown us that public image is important.

It is not un-American to question ourselves. To say we have made mistakes is the first step to getting it right. If we in this country determine that criminality has no place in this sport that trains our youth, the rest of the world will have to follow — what can they say? Can we ignore the evil in our midst and pretend ourselves into integrity? Judging from the results, apparently not.

Janet

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>You are exactly correct JFJ. What people need to understand is that the answers these riders are giving are totally BS. As if someone at that level who has ridden FEI for all those years didn't know what kind of ointment they can put on their horses leg. The best part is they all say "our team vet said it was perfectly legal"......AS IF their team vet was a moron. Come on these vets are the best in the world they know what is legal and what is not. But for the right price they will try anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, given a significant increase in the sensitivity of the tesing, it is ENTIRELY plausible for experienced vets and riders to say "giving a sedative for a veterinary procedure X weeks out isn't a problem."

Now, I don't know if that IS what happened, or if it is a cover. But it is plausible.

Fiction

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
I don't like the fact that the son of a felon who killed horses for insurance money just represented my nation in Olympic competition. I don't like the fact that McLain was caught putting chips in his horses boots and was banned from Aachen, and that his inclusion in our team forced the ban to be lifted. I don't like it. No one asks me, no one cares what the public thinks, but it bothers me. Yes he should have a fair chance, yes he deserves to make it on his own without paying for the sins of his father. But that family should not represent my country in equestrian sport, IMO. That's MY opinion. I respect yours, but that's mine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So whatif every top rider on our team had some sort of dirty little secret in their past, breaking rules, getting in trouble, ect. Are you implying that you'd rather have a team of less than stellar people with no law trouble?
Regardless of whatever Mclain's done in the past, he's a fantastic rider. He proved it in Athens, and I don't think ANYONE has the right to say he didn't deserve it.

mclain ward

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:50 AM

I don't often respond to what most of the time has been uniformed gossip which i seem to read on these forums so often. But "old school's" latest post upset me to such an extent that i felt compelled to do so. How dare you say that i don't deserve to be on an olympict team? How dare you pass judgement on me when you have no concept of what it takes not only me but anyone to reach that level. You state you were a trainer for ten years and then when you no longer approved of the direction the sport was going and got out. Maybe when you no longer were able to make living at it might be the real reason. Saying that federations have been Loose about enforcing the rules and that punishments have been lax is simply mind blowing. For reference my horses have been drug tested atleast 30 times this year and i myself have been drug tested 5 times, two times unannounced at my home. Anyone who is truly involved in this sport knows that the enfocement of rules is far greater than ever before, with infractions being punished to the full extent. Just look at my father: He has not been able to see me compete in almost ten years. But i am not interested in opening that topic. I am however offended by Old Schools comments, and the rest of my fellow olympians are too. I can only assume that Old School is a person without flaws, who has never made mistakes in thier life. Why else would someone have the nerve to write such garbage!Sorry for the rant but i just can't stand those who don't DO passing such judgment on those who give everything of themselves to reach worthwhile goals.

Dow Jones

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
I don't like the fact that the son of a felon who killed horses for insurance money just represented my nation in Olympic competition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find it deplorable that you'd judge McLain based on the actions of his father. I can't believe you'd want to keep him from representing his country in the Olympics- which he did quite well- because of something his father did.

I wonder how you'd feel if people judged you not on your own merits, but based on a mistake your parents made. That is meant to lessen Barney's actions, but please realize that Barney and McLain are two separate people and should be regarded as such.

Edited to add: McLain, we must have posted at the same time.

Astraled

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:34 PM

I think we should invade Ireland and search for these drugs http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif. It's our duty as a superpower.

Weatherford

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:42 PM

Nah, you gotta invade Belgium - that's were the Oirish get 'em.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Glimmerglass

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Nah, you gotta invade Belgium - that's were the Oirish get 'em.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought they just had polo ponies .. err I mean ponies in VW Polo cars being smuggled into Germany http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Correction - that is Holland! I don't think NATO would appreciate the invasion much in Brussels.

BLBGP

Oct. 25, 2004, 12:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And isn't anyone else laughing at the fact that 1 day after the Olympics Cians horse is out in the field? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, no. Are you serious?! If my horse made it to the Olympics and did that many rounds on that footing, I'd be damn sure he'd get a good amount of time off afterwards.

Welcome, McLain. Sorry to tell you that Old School is well known for going off quite often on holier than thou tirades.

My parents are pretty darn cool but I'm still glad to not have to go around being judged on what they did or did not do.

Astraled

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Nah, you gotta invade Belgium - that's were the Oirish get 'em.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought about it but I'd rather invade Ireland. Visit some pubs (for duty's sake only, mind you) and then go all Patton and "liberate" some horses. We're going to use your place as our staging area. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

eclipse

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:07 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And isn't anyone else laughing at the fact that 1 day after the Olympics Cians horse is out in the field?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope, I for one, am glad to see a horse of this caliber being able to enjoy time to be a horse. Complete, even, with proper turnout!

Plus, no matter what someones relatives have done in the past, it is not right or fair to judge other family members in the same light.

Magnolia

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> For reference my horses have been drug tested atleast 30 times this year and i myself have been drug tested 5 times, two times unannounced at my home. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? They can come into your home and drug test you? On what grounds? Being an Olympic team member? Sounds more like being on parole.

I can fully understand drug testing horse/rider at a competition, but IMO, going to your home and drug testing you is quite a violation. To drug test someone 5 times sounds like a witch hunt.... and is beginning to court statistical errors - (there is a high rate of error on drug tests.)

wanderlust

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And isn't anyone else laughing at the fact that 1 day after the Olympics Cians horse is out in the field? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, no. Are you serious?! If my horse made it to the Olympics and did that many rounds on that footing, I'd be damn sure he'd get a good amount of time off afterwards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ditto, BLBGP. Not to mention that while I'm not a biochemist, I'm pretty sure that being turned out won't help metabolize any drug out of his system any faster than hanging out in in the barn. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

McLain, nice to hear from you... just sorry that the occasion was to defend yourself. I was thrilled to see you make the team, and as far as I'm concerned, I hope to see you on many future teams (minus the broken bit/bridle, of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

wanderlust

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> For reference my horses have been drug tested atleast 30 times this year and i myself have been drug tested 5 times, two times unannounced at my home. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? They can come into your home and drug test you? On what grounds? Being an Olympic team member? Sounds more like being on parole.

I can fully understand drug testing horse/rider at a competition, but IMO, going to your home and drug testing you is quite a violation. To drug test someone 5 times sounds like a witch hunt.... and is beginning to court statistical errors - (there is a high rate of error on drug tests.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep, believe it, Magnolia. From what I've beent old, once you've been named a team member, the anti-doping folks need to know where you are at all times, and will randomly show up to drug test you. Personally, I think the whole anti-doping movement has gone completely overboard and has really begun to invade people's privacy, but as I'm not headed for an Olympic team in the near future, I'm not sure they care what I think.

Anne FS

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:32 PM

Wait, I thought Mr. Barney Ward did go to see MW compete many times. As a matter of fact, there was quite the brouhaha about it and it went back to court. So the not being on the grounds to watch the competition is not entirely true.

Troll?

BTW, who here saw Sapphire jump in Harrisburg early in the week and then again in the Harrisburg Grand Prix Saturday night?

fivebyfive

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:34 PM

ComPLETELY off topic, but I had a friend named Sian and it was pronounced Sharn...that's how I thought Cian was pronouced.

And welcome McLain! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now back to your regularly scheduled programing.

Go-Go

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:38 PM

It's not only Olympians (ask Lance Armstrong), and before you all get quick to criticize drug testing remember that these folks are professional athletes and know that they will be subjected to the testing. It comes as no surprise to them and it's part of the job.

Old School

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:48 PM

Fiction: "Are you implying that you'd rather have a team of less than stellar people with no law trouble?" My answer: Depends on the offense. No harming of horses to any degree on my equestrian teams.

My question: Are you implying that all the stellar riders with team potential have trouble obeying the law?

Thank you, McLain, for taking the time to write in. If this really is McLain. I would point out each of my opinions is backed by fact. Your insults aren't. Because I don't think this is really McLain, I am going to refrain from linking 4 or 6 references to your very public indictment here.

Once again, a few people on this BB are defending poor conduct. It isn't everyone, though I wish people who do actually know right from wrong would be a little more vocal.

Linus

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mclain ward:
Sorry for the rant but i just can't stand those who don't DO passing such judgment on those who give everything of themselves to reach worthwhile goals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But at what cost, and whose goals?

A whole lot of professionals seem to have forgotten that riding is a partnership. And that a voiceless animal is involved in the equation.

I'm sorry, but when horses are drugged, Buted, plastic shards stuck in their boots, etc. etc., all in the name of human ends, I don't think there's any "worthwhile" goal in sight.

I'm certainly not going to expand my definition of good horsemanship to include whatever might possibly make a horse jump higher, run faster, work through pain, even if it means an Olympic medal at the end.

I resent your implication that those of us not quite at your "level" don't know good horsemanship and can't possibly judge your (I use the general "your" here) actions. We are horsepeople too and would like nothing better than to see our teams succeed.

We're just not willing to do "whatever it takes" for that to happen.

Jair

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:54 PM

Wow, who knew that my post from several weeks ago would resurface so vehemently http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif One would think that I was still a very active participant here, what with my name on page one of the threads http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I sincerely hope that the issue with Cian and Waterford Crystal (a beautiful horse!) is resolved as a simple mistake. Unfortunately, my instinct tells me there is something unusual about that many failed drug tests at the Olympics. Does anyone know if there have been this many before? I certainly don't recall it from the last 4 ('88, '92, '94, '00).

Another added curiousity is the new info from the FEI that 11 more international jumping horses have tested positive in recent months.

I am by no means a great rider myself so my view doesn't come with depths of experience, but I would have expected the best riders in the world to be able to cope with almost any type/temperment of horse without having to chemiclaly alter them.

Frankly, I find it rather discouraging to think that some of the best out there may need to enhance their horses' performances with drugs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Astraled

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:56 PM

Good Intentions, missing facts! (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7076024331&m=7976072131&r=7976072131#7976072131)

A previous thread started by a person alleging to be Mclain Ward from approx. 1 billion years ago. So one is a troll or he forgot his password.

God, I will be so glad when my horses finally arrive tomorrow. I think I've posted more times in the past three months than in the entire previous five years http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

Old School

Oct. 25, 2004, 01:57 PM

Thank you, Linus! Another one stands up! WELL SAID!

Old School

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:02 PM

Jair: "Unfortunately, my instinct tells me there is something unusual about that many failed drug tests at the Olympics."

I also think it is strange. Despite my ranting against doping abuse, I would expect these riders would have known which lines to avoid crossing. Could the IOC be playing an increased sensitivity game to catch out the horses and make a scandal against our sport? Is this even a possibility?

nutmeg

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:09 PM

Just guessing, but I believe some timely whistle-blowing by disgusted show jumping fans is what precipitated the more sensitive tests--- specifically, the FEI was sent some samples of the mystery drugs that have been doing the rounds in Europe. Its pretty much identical to the Balco-lab scandal in which so many track and field athletes were implicated this spring.

GirlNextDoor

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:11 PM

RE:Tons of positive drug tests...

I think I remember hearing on TV that there were so many positive drug tests this time (obviously they were mainly talking about people) simply because they tested everyone and I think they made the drug-clean requirements more demanding.
Sooo I haven't the slightest idea what this means for horsies (I would have assumed they have always tested all the horses)

Kellysmom

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:31 PM

Hi McLain! Wow, what a pleasure. How is Gucci doing? Is she finding time to ride with you now that she is so busy with college? By the way, what is the name of her horse that she keeps in your barn? I always forget........lovely mare....

lauriep

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:33 PM

It is McLain, he has posted in the past. Unfortunately, it is ALWAYS to defend himself from this sort of illogical attack on him or his family. By those who have no clue. Does this describe you, Old School? Because it should.

Hey, McLain.

ABBA

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:41 PM

Harrisburg ended Saturday. McLain probably doesn't have to be at WIHS until Wednesday evening. He lives in NY. Why wouldn't he go home for 4 days?

Magnolia

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>before you all get quick to criticize drug testing remember that these folks are professional athletes and know that they will be subjected to the testing. It comes as no surprise to them and it's part of the job. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hell, the stocker at WalMart pees in a cup too. Part of their job. I don't think it is right.
5 times in one year, including twice at your home is ridiculous. Test them at competitions only. It's a witch hunt. People on parole for drug violations face fewer drug tests.

And what are these people tested for at home? Are they looking for pot? steroids? or are they trying to catch the poor sap who had a cup of coffee (caffeine) or a poppy seed bagel (opiates)?

mclain ward

Oct. 25, 2004, 02:53 PM

Let's start of bying first putting all doubts to rest on whether i really am MW or not. Yes i really am, i did respond to an attack on my grooms on these forums several years ago,(Good intentions, missing facts). It has been so long i had forgot my password. I do sometimes read these boards in my spare time and yes most of the gossip here is foolish. I am sure that there are many people with good intentions and plenty of horse related exsperience but there is also a considerable amount of nonsense spread here. To be honest these boards are well known to the horse show crowd and not too highly thought of.

As for Old school: Your facts to back up your accusations are based on one side i am sure. I don't need to defend my self to anyone let alone you, but i can admit that in my life i have made plenty of mistakes, i have learned from most of them and have strived for high goals, while being a good horseman. Yes , i have asked for a lot from my horses anyone who competes at a high level does, but i have cared for them better than family, i have always put hem before any goal.

It is also true my jab at your career is only based on speculation but i can not stand the high and mighty like you who are so quick to judge with little information and less personal knowledge. You do not know me, you do not know how i treat my animals, you do not know how much work i and my team has put into reaching our goals. I have have had great oppertunity, a great support staff, wonderful sponsors,and a lot of hard work to accomplish what have. It has not been through cheating or any other means. Winning is important but don't for a minute think that it comes before our care of these horses.

The scary thing is our sport is cleaner than ever. Because of frequent drug test, more stewards and giudlines the sport is overseen like a hawk. In years past horse abuse, drug abuse, and cheating was far more common. We always have to make and effort to keep the sport as clean as possible, and there will always be some infractions, but by and large most of the top riders in the world are not just good horsemen their great horsemen. We all should be so lucky to have someone care for us like these horses are cared for.

Old School

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:04 PM

someone said this: "My parents are pretty darn cool but I'm still glad to not have to go around being judged on what they did or did not do."

Before this gets twisted any further, McLain was banned from Aachen for horse-abuse. McLain, not his parents. McLain was banned. McLain is responsible for his own actions, and he was found committing foul play against horses. McLain. Get it? McLain did it.

If this is poster really is McLain, why don't you just say you're sorry? Why not apologize on these boards rather than come out to insult your public?

"To be honest these boards are well known to the horse show crowd and not too highly thought of." Well, BB'ers, that's what McLain thinks of you and your silly boards.

Guess what, "McLain": the horse show crowd's antics are well known in the outside world and not thought too highly of, either.

There are people here that don't mind corruption, or chipping a horse, or politics tilted toward professionals with connections that harm horses. They are showing their true selves in their posts because they think others are on their side, or that they are hidden from repercussion.

People who defend unsportsmanlike or inhumane conduct keep horsemanship under a cloud of bad publicity. They cause others to leave or stay away from the sport and so make your expenses ever higher. And eventually, if they are not controlled, they will kill the sport completely.

Policy of Truth

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:08 PM

Mr. Ward,

While I agree that some things said on this BB are less than stellar, is it really correct that "these boards are well known to the horse show crowd and not too highly thought of"?

I was under the impression that we had some pretty competitive people posting here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Coreene

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:08 PM

Oy vey. Methinks it's time for Roger.

From www.horseandhound.co.uk: (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk:)

FEI admits doping problem

October 22, 2004

Following the shock dope test results from Athens, the FEI admits that sedatives are in use, says H&H

The International Equestrian Federation (FEI) has confirmed that seven international competition horses have been found to have a prohibited substance in their systems in recent months. These are in addition to the four cases in Athens. A number of these cases have related to low concentrations of sedatives.

H&H dressage columnist Pammy Hutton first raised questions about such unethical practices in September 2003, and the subject was further investigated by Sue Mott in The Daily Telegraph.

Now the FEI admits it has seen evidence that seems to support these claims: "These substances [sedatives] are being used in low dosages to improve the manageability of 'hot' horses and are therefore regarded as serious attempts to influence the performance of the horse by medication."

It continues: "Apparently many riders, trainers or vets were under the impression that horses treated in this way wouldn't test positive. This is not the case."

In most cases the drugs have been found at show jumping competitions.

Of the positive tests from the medallists in Athens, only Waterford Crystal tested positive for a sedative, which his rider Cian O'Connor says must have lingered in the horse's system after being administered at an earlier hydrotherapy session.

Policy of Truth

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:09 PM

OLD SCHOOL!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

"Before this gets twisted any further, McLain was banned from Aachen for horse-abuse. McLain, not his parents. McLain was banned. McLain is responsible for his own actions, and he was found committing foul play against horses. McLain. Get it? McLain did it."

WTF!!!!!????? How DARE you!!!!??? Were you there? I don't recal ANY conclusive evidence on this issue....and I was on this BB when this issue was being debated the FIRST TIME!

Magnolia

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:14 PM

Old School,

You (and those like you) are a much bigger problem than McLain Ward, or Bettina Hoy.

People like you expect people to all be perfect, from our president to our olympians. Better not cheat on your wife, smoke dope or plagarize a paper - if you do that, you aren't fit for anything. (Heck, smoke dope, you aren't even working at WalMart). Do you have any idea of how successful, kind and honest people who have had flawed pasts can be?

Maybe, just maybe, some people LEARN from their mistakes and become better people for it. Maybe they can even use their mistakes to teach others. Maybe they shouldn't be condemned indefinitely for their crimes.

Jair

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
Oy vey. Methinks it's time for Roger. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

K, you lost me there Coreene dear: who or what is Roger?

Obviously either I've missed a new trend-word here on the BB (peeps, baby quiche, handbags etc. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) or that's an expression I've never encountered.

Coreene

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:19 PM

Jair, read your email. The address you use on the profile here on COTH. Aunt Esther only wishes she would meet him, LOL. xoxox

Cindeye

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mclain ward:
I don't often respond to what most of the time has been uniformed gossip which i seem to read on these forums so often. But "old school's" latest post upset me to such an extent that i felt compelled to do so. How dare you say that i don't deserve to be on an olympict team? How dare you pass judgement on me when you have no concept of what it takes not only me but anyone to reach that level. You state you were a trainer for ten years and then when you no longer approved of the direction the sport was going and got out. Maybe when you no longer were able to make living at it might be the real reason. Saying that federations have been Loose about enforcing the rules and that punishments have been lax is simply mind blowing. For reference my horses have been drug tested atleast 30 times this year and i myself have been drug tested 5 times, two times unannounced at my home. Anyone who is truly involved in this sport knows that the enfocement of rules is far greater than ever before, with infractions being punished to the full extent. Just look at my father: He has not been able to see me compete in almost ten years. But i am not interested in opening that topic. I am however offended by Old Schools comments, and the rest of my fellow olympians are too. I can only assume that Old School is a person without flaws, who has never made mistakes in thier life. Why else would someone have the nerve to write such garbage!Sorry for the rant but i just can't stand those who don't DO passing such judgment on those who give everything of themselves to reach worthwhile goals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, welcome to the board. Thank you for having the courage to respond to this thread personally.

Second, may I say I am proud to have you represent the U.S. on the team. In my humble opinion, the best riders and horses should be able to compete and you exemplify the very best we have to offer.

Third, please take into consideration that there are many people who post on these boards that do not believe in judging people...especially judging people based on the actions of their families or judging people we have never even met. To do so, again in my opinion, is prejudice at its very worst.

Finally, I hope you will return to the boards often and post in other topics. We can all benefit from the sharing of information by someone of your experience and expertise!

Thanks for your comments.

BLBGP

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
someone said this: "My parents are pretty darn cool but I'm still glad to not have to go around being judged on what they did or did not do."

Before this gets twisted any further, McLain was banned from Aachen for horse-abuse. McLain, not his parents. McLain was banned. McLain is responsible for his own actions, and he was found committing foul play against horses. McLain. Get it? McLain did it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, well, originally you posted this: "I don't like the fact that the son of a felon who killed horses for insurance money just represented my nation in Olympic competition. I don't like the fact that McLain was caught putting chips in his horses boots and was banned from Aachen, and that his inclusion in our team forced the ban to be lifted."

Listing his father's problems first made me assume that that was of primary importance to you, or at least important enough to get highly worked up about and mention. Sorry if I misunderstood, but I don't think I did. Now that McLain is here, you seem to be backtracking a bit.

AWIP

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:34 PM

Welcome McLain.

My personal perspective? Its had to say where I stand with the drug testing results anymore.
- Top riders rely on their vets, they have to with the advances in treatment these days.
- The vets give what they believe is accurate information and end up being wrong
- The tests get more and more and more sensitive *notice I did not say accurate* geared more towards detecting metabolites that can linger for indeterminite amounts of time. For example, Beerbaum's horse tested positive for betamethazone. would you believe that it is normally a topical skin ointment for eczema? I've got some in my cabinet, for myself, and it sure hasn't had any world-class athletisism inducing side-effects. This is cause for stripping medals? Topical cortico-steroidal skin ointment? I know the question "But how do we KNOW it wasn't used for some evil cheating purpose?" I rebut with "How do we KNOW it was?"
Everyone makes mistakes, even top performance vets and doctors. Remember Silken Laumann, the rower? Team doctor approved the wrong version (non-drowsy) of Sudafed or Sinutab, she got her Olympic or World Champ Gold medals stripped. Mistakes happen, positive tests occur when no intent to cheat occur, and all get tarred with the same cheating brush.

Athletes at this level give up alot to get to the top, once they reach the top they give up their privacy too. IOC Testers now have the right to test elite, international level athletes and horses any time & anywhere. The testing has become incredibly intrusive and the sensitivity of the testing and the focus on the metabolites makes a clean test harder and harder to achieve for all athletes, human and equine, even for the innocent.

Cut them some slack and think about how hard it is to prove innocence compared to implying guilt. The heartbreak and embarassment must be horrible.

Old School

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:36 PM

You know what? When you put a controversial figure with shady past on the OLYMPIC team representing a nation ---- YOU'RE GOING TO GET CONTROVERSY!

It was a bad decision for that reason alone.

It is the people that DARE to put such a figure on the team that brought this on. And they only DARE because they have support.

Cindeye

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:41 PM

Oh for the love of Pete. Give it a rest Old School. Throwing around terms such as "shady past" is truly beyond the pale. Get over yourself.

Dow Jones

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:42 PM

Um, Old School, perhaps you need to look at the selection criteria again. McLain EARNED his way onto the team- there was no "daring decision" involved.

What's that old saying? May he without sins case the first stone?

God

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It is the people that DARE to put such a figure on the team that brought this on. And they only DARE because they have support.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well no sh*t, sherlock.

People are going to have conflicting opinions. Last I checked, all that's true and holy and right is not simply the firm, unrelenting and quite possibly uneducated opinion of yourself.

Diva98

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:52 PM

Seriously, Old School, God has spoken. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Give it a rest. Personally, I am so impressed with McLain - not only for posting on here where things can get quite nasty, but also for his superb performance representing the U.S.

Welcome McLain - thank you for posting here!

Hucklebug

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:57 PM

People, this is not what my mommy had in mind when she signed me up for riding lessons as a child. Can we please get back to talking about nice warm fuzzy things?

mclain ward

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:57 PM

OK old school you need a little refresher course in showjumping. First of all no body promotes, encourages or supports doping, cheating, or horse abuse in anyway,that includes the majority of riders in the grand prix's. Yes it does happen, and more and more those are being cought and punished accordingly. ACCORDINGLY! Like in our own justice system a life sentence should not be handed down for every violation as you might suggest i am sure.

As for Aachen, i don't think you where there were you? Further more not only do i not have to defend myself to you i certainly don't have to appoligize to you. I was invited back to Aachen a year ago, long before i made the Olympic team by the way. Just thought you should get your facts straight.

These boards are thought of poorly because of the overly opinionated, poorly informed comments by people like yourself. I am sure, no i can see that most of the people who write hear are interested in talking and learning about horse related topics. Sadly,your garbage, your almost vendictive comments are it's downfall. When we should be celabrating our teams successe in Athens,doping scandle free I might add, you are are voicing your opinion on how i should not represent our country in a sport i have given my life to because of something that happened 5 years ago.Since you are sure that i am giulty you should be happy to know i was punished heavily, served my time and have been in good standing's ever since. For those who believe in my innosence, thankyou for your support. Further more we better take Peter Wylde of the team too because he also has an abuse infraction from some time ago, and let's not forget G. Morris who has a drug infraction from some 20 years ago, but hell, once a sinner always a sinner right Old school?

The best in the world are the best because of first a desire, second and oppertunity, third great sponsors and support staff and most importantly a lot of hard work. Have they made mistakes? I am sure they have like most everyone else. Sometimes people loose sight and push the envolope to far, but if they are going to have any sustained successe they must learn from those mistakes. Any athelete who does well over a long period has done through true effort, thats bottom line! Please I can tell your type Old School, i don't need the facts.

Other

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:57 PM

All I have to say is daaaaamn. Old School, I don't really know how to begin to respond to your posts. But here goes. Forgive the utter lack of eloquence, I'm a wee bit perturbed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:

Before this gets twisted any further, McLain was banned from Aachen for horse-abuse. McLain, not his parents. McLain was banned. McLain is responsible for his own actions, and he was found committing foul play against horses. McLain. Get it? McLain did it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, so, I do recall that the whole issue here is that they never did prove that McLain "did" anything. But, then again, the whole "innocent until proven guilty" has never exactly been a standard people are held to on these boards, so...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If this is poster really is McLain, why don't you just say you're sorry? Why not apologize on these boards rather than come out to insult your public? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but what is he to say sorry about? "Sorry I qualified for the Olympics and put in beautiful rides? Sorry for not sitting back and biting my tongue while my horsemanship, person, and family are attacked on your boards yet again?"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> "To be honest these boards are well known to the horse show crowd and not too highly thought of." Well, BB'ers, that's what McLain thinks of you and your silly boards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure this has nothing to do with the fact that there is a certain group of posters who continuously berate anyone who attend sanctioned horse shows of any kind, and make us feel like horse abusers because we jump big jumps, give our tired horses bute, show more than once a month, or spend our own hard-earned money on this "corrupt" horse show world we love so much.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> They are showing their true selves in their posts because they think others are on their side, or that they are hidden from repercussion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif "They" are the ones hiding? Would you honestly step up from behind that monitor and tell these athletes (who just gave everything they had to represent our country in Athens and defend our reputation in the greater showjumping world) to their faces that they didn't deserve to be on our team? Or are you just hiding behind the anonymity of the old WWW machine?

Ruby G. Weber

Oct. 25, 2004, 03:58 PM

Old School - you have made your point, now give it a rest. I suggest you try something less controversal...like voting for Nader.

Peace out, dude.

Linus

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:02 PM

Old School

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:04 PM

So far on this board, there has been beating up on a disabled person, defense of apathy, and now this. It wouldn't surprise me if this BB wasn't around much longer ... will THAT wake the good people up?

I had gotten over the McLain thing, but now I realize it is a HUGE issue. It goes right to the heart of problems in the sport. The outside world really should know what they already suspect.

Are you people THIS blind? McLain or his imposter just told you that "the horse show crowd" doesn't think highly of this board. They aren't your friends. If you're going to suck up, at least make it to someone who pretends to care about you.

Glimmerglass

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
You know what? When you put a controversial figure with shady past on the OLYMPIC team representing a nation ---- YOU'RE GOING TO GET CONTROVERSY!

It was a bad decision for that reason alone.

It is the people that DARE to put such a figure on the team that brought this on. And they only DARE because they have support. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Old School, I was going to let all of this go as clearly we don't see eye to eye but rather I must say you truly are a piece of work.

McLain earned a slot onto the US Equestrian Olympic team by being in good standing, meeting the published criteria, and by achieving the scores necessary. There was no "putting" him on the team like he was specially chosen or anointed by some buddy-system, rather he clearly earned it. As he has the 90 plus grand prix victories in his career.

Five years ago he was involved in an incident which was shady (the chips at Aachen with IMHO minimal proof) but he accepted the guilt for a variety of reasons - worries about his eligibility for the 2000 Olympic trials being one of them - while steadfastly proclaiming his innocence. Old news, he did the time-off, paid the fine, and was even forgiven by the Germans and admitted back to Aachen.

Perfect? No one is. A top notch rider who catch ride anything to ribbon placing and is proud of his country? Yep. The guy has had to mature under some of the toughest spotlights that any athlete of any sport has had to cope with. (Divorced parents, growing up on the circuit, lack of privacy, broken engagement, etc) I think he's done a pretty damn good job at that and I think he is now a far better role model then a lot of holier of then thou folks who tend to be anything but squeaky clean. If anything I think with the extra scrutiny the guy walks the straight and narrow better then most would ever be expected to.

Do I think anyone - athlete or otherwise - should be idolized such that they can do no wrong? Heck no, but when a guy tries his best, is willing to say its been a tough journey and still keeps on contributing as best he can you have to respect him.

GirlNextDoor

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
I had gotten over the McLain thing, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you going to admit you've been beat? I think he just laid a smack down to the upteenth degree...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Are you people THIS blind? McLain or his imposter just told you that "the horse show crowd" doesn't think highly of this board. They aren't your friends. If you're going to suck up, at least make it to someone who pretends to care about you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you saying people should listen to you because you pretend to like everyone?

I hate to tell you buuuut...You don't seem to be God, no matter how hard you try. And your Mother Teresa impression is pretty weak too.

MAD

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
I'm a Texan who was raised rodeo and saw the Montreal Olympic's show jumping and thought THAT is what I want to do. I ended up working at Stadium Jumping Inc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you met McLain, Old School? You claim you worked for Stadium Jumping. Your attack seems personal and now I'm curious...

Coreene

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:26 PM

Yeah, and the rules say "No Personal Attacks."

khobstetter

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:26 PM

OH MYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!

McLain..check you PT's..(private Topics) !!

Holy smoly...I go to the post office for a few minutes and come back to this!!!!!!!! GEEZ Old School, give it a rest, take some meds and go back to sleep!!!!!!

Have your own opinion but don't beat us all up cause we don't agree...and until you can ride as good, teach as good, keep clients as happy, keep TOP show horses on the road, withstand all this shi^%$& people like you throw around.....please spare us your nasty vile attacks of one of our Olympians!!!

meghan1963

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:29 PM

i have attended many FEI shows for many years and been on the "inside" since I am associated with a top GP jumper. at the top level of the sport, All I have ever seen is the riders & their support teams caring for their horses like they are gold. the horses always come first with the top proffesionals and no expense is spared for the horses health or comfort. The riders at this level are consumate horse-people and the staff they employ are the best in the world.
furthermore - most of the jumpers I know at these levels are so ridable & willing I can't see where the advantage would be to use sedatives. Also I know that when most of the top riders retire their mounts they truly make sure they have wonderful homes or they provide them with that home themselves.

I also have seen that, while of course everyone loves a win, the riders at this level of the sport are incredibly supportive of each other and truly exhibit wonderful sportsmanship.

Also - I attended the Trials in CA & McLain and everyone else most definitely EARNED their spots on the team. We were fortunate to be represented by the best horse/rider combinations and they did us proud.

McLain - great job at H-burg. Sapphire was great on Saturday. You have done a wonderful job bringing this young GP horse along. Also congrats on Goldika's super week.

Other

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
So far on this board, there has been beating up on a disabled person, defense of apathy, and now this. It wouldn't surprise me if this BB wasn't around much longer ... will THAT wake the good people up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this BB isn't around much longer, it's going to be because certain people are unable to resist the tempation to make hurtful, and often uninformed, personal attacks. And I'm not just talking about you, or this issue, for that matter. It's an issue of human decency. These boards are a privelege and serve as a wonderful resource to thousands of people.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Are you people THIS blind? McLain or his imposter just told you that "the horse show crowd" doesn't think highly of this board. They aren't your friends. If you're going to suck up, at least make it to someone who pretends to care about you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I deeply resent the implications behind this post.

Firstly, how dare you insinuate that anyone here is "sucking up" to anyone. Perhaps they are simply expressing their own opinions and exercising their right to do so, as you so boldy do yourself.
I feel the need to express my frustration about the way you have publicly attacked the actions and character of an athlete whose riding abilities serve as a source of great inspiration to myself and many others. It's not as if I am posting here thinking "gee whiz, here's a great oppurtunity to earn brownie points and boost an Olympian's opinion of "Other"" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Secondly, you say that the "horse show crowd..aren't your friends". What-are you saying if you post here you're automatically not part of this "crowd"? There are plenty of people here who identify with said "horse show crowd" who DO care deeply about many/all of the issues raised on these boards, as well as the posters who raise them.

It is statements like this that make those of us who DO participate in shows feel alienated from this community at certain times, and lend to any sort of negative impression that we/they might have about the value of these boards. You're not exactly helping the cause.

867-5309

Oct. 25, 2004, 04:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:

If this is poster really is McLain, why don't you just say you're sorry? Why not apologize...... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Old School! For goodness sakes! MW put up a very modest post admitting he had "made mistakes" and learned from them. So Old School, read my signature line. Lather, rinse, repeat. (If only you youngsters understood the magnificent significance of the context of that quote from Stripes as it applies to this board....)

Anyone else on the floor laughing that there is a poster named God? That SLAYS me.

Heather Dobbs

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:17 PM

If people don't like this BB, it is because of the personal attacks, gossip, and hypocrisy of a few. Most BB members don't like those things either.
McLain deserved his success in Athens and is an extremely talented rider. He certainly does not need me or anyone else to defend him because his success speaks for itself.
If there is an issue you want to discuss, by all means, do so. But making personal attacks just makes you look immature and bitter, and does nothing to help whatever cause you support. If you don't like corruption that you allege to be infesting the sport, think of a way to change it. Attacking individuals does absolutely nothing.

Old School

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:26 PM

I really, honestly, do not understand why my opinions on this board are flamed so readily.

The top of any sport must be clean for reasons of the public. This sport has been prey for criminal behavior to the point that the general public has been turned off. That makes costs more expensive, and eventually, like foxhunting, the tide could turn against this activity. My perception is that many people here don't care very much if the sport fades out, or don't understand the dynamic that could cause it. The kind of treatment doled out here to others (CP, anyone?) is exactly what the real world finds repugnant about the "horse show crowd."

This state of affairs only matters to me in theory - it matters to most of you actually, financially, personally. While you are shooting the messengers, be careful to avoid your foot.

A. Roose

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:29 PM

My personal take from this thread?

We should all be grateful that MW wasn't named to the team because of his spelling and grammar skills. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

And, yes, many of you are sucking up. But that is what makes the horse show world the hypocritical place I know so well and love! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Magnolia

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:34 PM

Ya know what Old School, McLain didn't fail his OR his horses drug test in the Olympics.

But I do know that more than one rider is guilty of feeding their horses BABY CARROTS while they are eating BABY QUICHE. That, IMHO is the real crime here.

Magnolia

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The top of any sport must be clean for reasons of the public. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh GOOD GOD, look away from the trainwreck......

Who is the "public". The public doesn't know who these people are, nor do they care. The public wants to see the pretty horses jump the jumps and some are amused when they poop or fart in the ring. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The only people who are aware of any of the "insidiousness" of the sport are people already involved.

I think compared to other sports riding (especially to those not in the "know") is squeaky clean and full of boring people. I think half of this stuff is made up anyways to make things more interesting.....

Zoef

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:43 PM

I have no commentary on this subject other than to say that it has been a pet peeve of mine for years that people cannot spell his name correctly. It is McLain, not Mclain, McClain or any other variation. Sorry but it just bugs the crap out of me. Okay rant over.

AWIP

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:44 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The top of any sport must be clean for reasons of the public.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes ... Pro basketball, football, baseball, boxing & hockey are all shining examples of this. I COMPLETELY understand where you are coming from. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I don't quite know whether to ask for some of what you're smoking or run like hell away from it... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

mclain ward

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:44 PM

It's so funny. I was talking with a friend today about this topic and that i responded. Funny enough i said just wait by the end someone will write he rides OK but his spelling is terrible. There you go, have to laugh. I am sorry for my spelling though, i will say I am sorry for that. I have always been a BAD speller and have become very dependant on "spell chaeck", oh well.

I have to ask Old School if you do see me at a show, please come up to me intruduce yourself. Tell me to my face i don't deserve to ride in the Olympics, tell me to my face how little respect for you have and how you know all of the terrible thing's i have done. I will at least respect you for coming face to face.

JFJ

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:47 PM

Hey McLain, if you really want to get them going tell them how much you love drawreins http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AWIP

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:51 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
Hey McLain ... didn't you know the point of being on a pedestal was so that people could throw stuff at you to try and knock you off it?

Good on ya for making it to the top, even more so for standing up for yourself, your family and your horses. I admire the riding that got you the first, but respect the courage of the second a whole lot more.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Oh, and your spelling is still better than most of the engineering/MBA types I work with.

jumper11

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:56 PM

"The top of any sport must be clean for reasons of the public. This sport has been prey for criminal behavior to the point that the general public has been turned off"

I'm sorry OS, but this is such absolute garbage... I know Magnolia already addressed it but, please, that's such crap. The "public" doesnt' care about horse show jumping. They don't understand it, and therefore rarely watch it. Gimme a break. The people who care are the ones within the industry and most probably are supportive of McLain and the rest of our Olympians. What are you bitching about anyways, the Olympics were 2 months ago. Do you really have a point, honestly?

findeight

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:56 PM

MW earned his spot on the team thru an objective selection trial format.
He did better then the others.

We have to field our best riders who are currently "hot" and winning if we want to win on the International circuit.

Whatever my personal opinion of family baggage, Maclain earned the spot with superior performance, deserved the spot and he rode well in Athens. Tested clean too.

Should I ever meet you, instead of just your dog, I'll buy you a beer MW. Good job.

khobstetter

Oct. 25, 2004, 05:59 PM

McLain..check your PT's...

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 06:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
I really, honestly, do not understand why my opinions on this board are flamed so readily. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably because they are presented in this holier-than-thou, you're-stupid-if-you-don't-agree-with-me manner? Just a thought.

Look, the selection criteria for the Olympic Games are certainly a valid point of discussion. And if you are of the opinion that no one who has been set down for a rules infraction should be allowed to compete, hey, you're entitled to that opinion. It would probably be accepted a lot more readily if it were delivered more diplomatically, but that's neither here nor there...

But while you're berating everyone for not respecting your opinions, you seem to be missing the fact that you're not respecting everyone ELSE's opinions. I've seen several well-reasoned posts on this thread about the selection process, about the realistic-ness (I think I just made that word up... it's late and I can't think of a better one) of banning people who have ever had a rules infraction. Rather than accept those as valid viewpoints, you claim that everyone here is horrible, that they don't care about the sport, don't understand, blah blah blah.

As Glimmer noted, McLain was a member in good standing who qualified for the team, according to the selection criteria that were in place. Do you think we should change those selection criteria? By all means, start a discussion about it. But you'd probably have a lot more luck making your points if you weren't insulting everyone who disagrees with you.

DMK

Oct. 25, 2004, 06:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Heather Dobbs:
If people don't like this BB, it is because of the personal attacks, gossip, and hypocrisy of a few. Most BB members don't like those things either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, Heather. And let's not forget that those of us who dislike BB posters who make broad sweeping indictments are equally put off by people who don't post (or don't post often) and make broad sweeping indictments about the entire BB. It's a lot like life. Good, bad and a whole lot of mind numbing boring stuff in between. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As I said on earlier threads on this topic, that IF what Ludger, Cian and Betina said is true, then I think we can safely say something isn't really 100% right with the system. But I would have to say that after the great Prolixin-Reserpine Cocktail Scandal of '04, the system is not without merit. But I still think we could do a far better job of explaining it, defending it and improving it.

To hell with personal attacks and finger pointing because you don't like somebody's father, or Cian's horse is in pasture, or whatever the latest gossip is. It's the PROCESS, not the PERSON.

Galileo1998

Oct. 25, 2004, 06:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
I really, honestly, do not understand why my opinions on this board are flamed so readily.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH OH!!! I can answer that one. [now, now... a personal attack is not helping the situation...] http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Vandy

Oct. 25, 2004, 06:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
I have no commentary on this subject other than to say that it has been a pet peeve of mine for years that people cannot spell his name correctly. It is McLain, not Mclain, McClain or any other variation. Sorry but it just bugs the crap out of me. Okay rant over. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And while we're at it, it's Maclay. Not McClay, McLay or MacClay.

McLain
Maclay

Thanks

LuvTheDutch

Oct. 25, 2004, 06:41 PM

The method through which our Olympic team is decided is obviously in good working order. Do you honestly believe we would have come away with the medals we did if there was such a MAJOR flaw in the system as Old School is describing? I honestly think there are only 2 things that I wish we could go back in time and change:
1) McLain's run of bad luck with the bridle breaking during a good round
2) The loss of Royal Kaliber

In regards to the drawrein remark, I've read those threads but never replied. Let's not and say we did bring that subject back up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

McLain, I met you a LONG time ago. Back when University of Delaware hosted a grand prix. You are a wonderful rider and horseman and the US is lucky to have you wearing our flag ...

~!~ Ten ~!~

Zoef

Oct. 25, 2004, 06:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vandy:

And while we're at it, it's Maclay. Not McClay, McLay or MacClay.

McLain
Maclay

Thanks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well now really - here is another one while we are on the subject: ridiculous NOT rediculous. The number of people that get that one wrong on here amazes me. You would think the people here grew up in a barn or something http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Madison

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:17 PM

Hey, Zoef - along those lines, if you need to be annoyed further, feel free to go to the "In Memorandum" thread about half-way down the page http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

lauriep

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
So far on this board, there has been beating up on a disabled person, defense of apathy, and now this. It wouldn't surprise me if this BB wasn't around much longer ... will THAT wake the good people up?

I had gotten over the McLain thing, but now I realize it is a HUGE issue. It goes right to the heart of problems in the sport. The outside world really should know what they already suspect.

Are you people THIS blind? McLain or his imposter just told you that "the horse show crowd" doesn't think highly of this board. They aren't your friends. If you're going to suck up, at least make it to someone who pretends to care about you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Old School, since I qualify, in fact am probably who you are referring to in your ill informed way, let me jump in on THIS subject!

"I know about horses because have a mother and sister who took pains to get me to see the sport at Pin Oak and the Olympics, and put horses in our backyard ... I haven't ridden in ten years, and never get to see it. "

"I started riding in about 1978"

"I'm a Texan who was raised rodeo and saw the Montreal Olympic's show jumping and thought THAT is what I want to do. I ended up working at Stadium Jumping Inc."

The above are all quotes of the almighty Old School. Please consider them carefully when digesting his judgemental, vindictive, inflammatory posts.

You have a whole LOT of nerve presuming to pass judgement on people who you clearly know nothing about. How dare you! When you can come out of hiding, give some idea of what gives you this right, then MAYBE your opinion will have some merit. Until then, and I say this from the bottom of my heart, with my full identity out there for all to see, CRAWL BACK UNDER YOUR ROCK. And I don't give a damn about what this diatribe does to my credibility. You have pissed me off, AGAIN!

Zoef

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madison:
Hey, Zoef - along those lines, if you need to be annoyed further, feel free to go to the "In Memorandum" thread about half-way down the page http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know - for whatever reason that one just makes me LMAO. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fluffernutter

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:29 PM

Lauriep,
Why come you can call Old School an arrogant A-hole, but I can't say Mason Phelps is one? Especially when both statements are true!

lauriep

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:32 PM

Why come? You certainly can, but I can defend him too, just as if you REALLY want to defend OS, have at it!

Start your own thread, though, as this one is about only ONE AAH.

Fluffernutter

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:34 PM

Naaaah Laurie I have no interest in defending OS. We finally agree on something! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Jane

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madison:
Hey, Zoef - along those lines, if you need to be annoyed further, feel free to go to the "In Memorandum" thread about half-way down the page http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know - for whatever reason that one just makes me LMAO. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh good, I thought I was the only one. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

StarDoozer

Oct. 25, 2004, 07:41 PM

Dear McLain,

I'm actually a dressage rider, but was browsing through the H/J forum when I came across this topic.

I just wanted to say it's very bold of you to respond on a forum such as this one, and put yourself out there. I know many, many people read the boards, but don't have the ba!!S to post. Kudos to you.

On another topic-
It seems that people are always trying to bring down those who are at the top of their game- take for example Anky in Dressage.

As important as this microcosm (spelling?!?!) that is the horse world may seem to us, it is miniscule compared to the bigger picture- bigger sports, etc. People don't go into the horse business (in most cases) for the fame it brings or to make the big bucks. They do it for the love of the horses.

May we all remember that before we lash-out against the next big controversy.

Liz

Policy of Truth

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:32 PM

"If you're going to suck up, at least make it to someone who pretends to care about you"

I don't NEED to suck up to a man I've NEVER met! I'm just sick of your mud-slinging. What I want to say cannot be said on this BB....man....

Is it POSSIBLE you are wrong? I mean....do you actually think if people don't like your attitude or assumptions they automatically are on an opposing side from you?

Just because we disagree with you doesn't make us wrong/horse-druggers/or stuck up Mr. Ward's BUTT!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Irish Ei's

Oct. 25, 2004, 08:32 PM

I'm, uh, speechless. Except to say that without fail,EVERY greenie, new to the board gets called a Troll. McLain, you've been given the all out open-armed,blue-ribbon,red carpet Welcome to the BB. Sorry to say it's Nasty, Ugly, Mean-spirited and pretty unforgiving sometimes.From the FewButLoud. Don't worry, it doesn't hurt for long.I survived it....
I was at World Cup 02. The Paris, the airport, the same flight home. Thank You for being so kind to my Daughter and so Patient with my SO. And when you get tired of all this crap, you could always take up Barrel Racing w/Rodrigo....
I, for one an thrilled that Cian's horse is healthy enuf to be turned out the day after homecoming and he had the great good sense not to drag him all over the country on publicity trips, or off to yet another show.

Hexel

Oct. 25, 2004, 09:31 PM

I just knew the spelling police were going to write McLain a ticket. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

McLain I'm very thankful for your spelling oops here and there. When the BB grammer/spelling police turn their lights on. I often wonder to myself. How many brilliant successful folks are there that occasionally/often misspell a word.
It certainly has not stopped you from making your way to the Olympics, a feat envied by many.

Erin

Oct. 25, 2004, 09:48 PM

Uh oh, this is going to give all the net-speaking kids who can't spell even more ammunition! So much for the argument that you'll never amount to anything if you can't spell or use proper grammar! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

But then again, the grammar nitpickers are about as inevitable as the people who scream "troll" everytime someone new posts something somewhat contentious... I think we're stuck with them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Beezer

Oct. 25, 2004, 10:24 PM

You know, Erin, you and I generally agree with each other. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif But, alas, this time ... ah, hell, why bother? I'll just get blasted out of the water for thinking that spelling and grammar are important life skills, even for someone who rides horses for a living. And that I don't need. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

As for the original topic at hand, I'll add my little person's voice (seeing as how I **do** like it here on COTH and appreciate the people I've "met" here http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif ) and say that what this sport really needs is a way to judge the effects of X drug at X level on performance. I realize that each animal (including humans) will have a slight variance on clearance times, but assuming that the intent behind giving a drug is not to enhance the performance, such a standard seems the only fair way to go.

Just my little humble opinion, of course. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Astraled

Oct. 25, 2004, 11:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
It is McLain, not Mclain, McClain or any other variation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But how about...Susan? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

If anybody else gets this, you also spent too much time watching cartoons http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

J. Turner

Oct. 26, 2004, 04:19 AM

McLain - great work in the Olympics - could you capitalize your "I's" though? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Could I be your office person? I'd be happy to proofread for you!!! All in exchange for a lesson here and there!

Edited and proofread. McLain, I was joking around. I hope you caught that!

lyrical lu

Oct. 26, 2004, 05:11 AM

Oh, for God's sake people! Now this has turned into a grammar and spell check!?!?!

It's amazing all the perfect people that post on this board.

BTFW, if you are going to roast someone on grammar/spelling you better do it correctly, ummmm J. Turner.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Mclain - great work in the Olympics - could you capitalize your "Is" though? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That would be I's. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Thanks for posting MW. The best team went to the Olympics.

Can we get back to the drugs found in the Olympic horses!?!?!?!? When do we hear the results of the "B" sample?

PS I can't spell, and have zero grammar skills. I often wonder how I can feed myself......let alone ride a horse.

Magnolia

Oct. 26, 2004, 05:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Can we get back to the drugs found in the Olympic horses!?!?!?!? When do we hear the results of the "B" sample?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that I read somewhere it would be a year or so to hash everything out. Not sure about the B results and when they come in.

I think one of the more interesting stories is Bettina Hoy. Lot's of people (including George Morris) think there is a German "conspiracy" to dominate eventing via format changes (ie, making it a stadium/dressage test, with cross country to count very little), thus making warmbloods preferable to the thoroughbreds that until recently, dominated the sport.

Bettina Hoy made a small error that put her out of the medals, now she gets pulled for doping. It will be interesting to see how that plays out, and what accusations will be lobbed to to that.

I did have a thought last night regarding Old School and McLaingate..... I think McLain Ward will always have to deal with people like Old School. That is his unfortunate burden to over come. I think his longevity as a horse person rides on how well he can deal with people like Old School and being absolutely squeaky clean. I think it is unfortunate, but he is always going to be a target (and an easy one) of people who enjoy tarnishing reputations. McLain can not afford the slip ups that other riders might be able to make. It might not be fair, but that's life. I, for one, hope he has a long and successful (and scandal free!)career that can rise above the gossip and stories of the past.

Ruby G. Weber

Oct. 26, 2004, 05:45 AM

Not sure if this has been addressed.....

If LB's B Sample is also positive for Betamethasone, he chooses not to contest further thereby accepting the consequences, do the German's lose the Gold from the Nation's Cup?

The way I do the math, if his are the drop scores, the U.S. ended up with 20 faults and the Germans 21.

Anyone know?

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 06:10 AM

Yup, Ma, that is the way I have been told it will play out.

Check your PTs.

DMK

Oct. 26, 2004, 06:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Bettina Hoy made a small error that put her out of the medals, now she gets pulled for doping. It will be interesting to see how that plays out, and what accusations will be lobbed to to that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno Magnolia. In some sports errors are like being pregnant. You either are or you aren't, or you either made an error or not. Not so much with the "small" on that topic! (I felt for her when I heard she went through the timers, because who wants to make a flat out rookie mistake at the highest level of competition?)

But I don't know about a conspiracy (although I certainly do believe there are folks out there that believe it). I do think that the Germans wield a lot of influence in this business (because they are good and have been good for a very long time) and like anyone who is a) very good at their business and b) have a lot of power/influence over the business, they would like to see things go their way and are more able to affect that end than someone with less of all the above.

Everyone on the planet knows this MO drives a lot of business standards. Windows platform anyone? The world doesn't evolve around Windows because its the best available product, it evolves around Windows because Windows dominated the market and guided the standards to suit its own business needs.

So no, I don't think the Germans have a conspiracy per se. But like anyone with a product to sell (in this case, German bred and/or trained horses), they will use their leadership roles and market superiority to influence a market to meet their products capabilities. Only secondarily will they modify the product to meet the market need.

Laurie/Ruby - I heard the same thing. What a lousy way to win a medal. Of course it isn't lost on me that if that happens, the US will have moved up in the world championship dressage placings, the Olympic eventing (if it hadn't been for the rookie error mentioned above) and the Olympic show jumping all because of Europeans failing drug tests. Now what drum is it that you have been beating about "zero tolerance isn't exactly zero tolerance" for as long as we have been on these boards? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To quote Jon Stewart... "Hmmmmmmmmmm" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Hexel

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:02 AM

Beezer I'm with you on the meds. If only our horses could talk.
Drugs that alter their minds or mask injuries are a big no, no, no IMHO. I wonder though, how can these horses get to the level they are at without a bit of an ache here and there. If only there were a happy medium of sorts, that one might monitor. We seem to go from one end of the pole to the other.

Grammer and spelling correctly are good things
and if one has the aptitude for it, that is great. It just does not come easily to everyone, same with math. It is where the heart is, that counts. Sorry, no more about spelling.

Magnolia

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:02 AM

I think the Bettina Hoy thing is fascinating though. If she was using the Benadryl as a quieting agent, then that would be an advantage for her dressage phase - the phase the German horses are supposed to excel at without pharamaceutical help!

Pony+ an inch

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mclain ward:
It's so funny. I was talking with a friend today about this topic and that i responded. Funny enough i said just wait by the end someone will write he rides OK but his spelling is terrible. There you go, have to laugh. I am sorry for my spelling though, i will say I am sorry for that. I have always been a BAD speller and have become very dependant on "spell chaeck", oh well.

I have to ask Old School if you do see me at a show, please come up to me intruduce yourself. Tell me to my face i don't deserve to ride in the Olympics, tell me to my face how little respect for you have and how you know all of the terrible thing's i have done. I will at least respect you for coming face to face. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better a poor speller than a poor writer (or rider, haha...(sorry, wanted to be clever for a moment)).

DMK

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
I think the Bettina Hoy thing is fascinating though. If she was using the Benadryl as a quieting agent, then that would be an advantage for her dressage phase - the phase the German horses are supposed to excel at without pharamaceutical help! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who knows how horses handle drugs, but at least speaking for me, as a person who has to be careful WHERE I take benadryl, as I am likely to slip into a coma right then and there, I can (and do) slather on benadryl ointment with absolute impunity and no detectable drowsiness. Mahvelus stuff for altercations with fire ants, skeeters or ground hornets!

But I think the issue with the test is that the test doesn't know how the substance got there - IV, IM, topical ointment, only that it is there, so just because Betina said that's what she used (same holds true for Ludger), the test can't tell the difference.

J. Turner

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:47 AM

stan - guess you didn't get the tongue in cheek. Sorry about my lack of an apostrophe. I admit I didn't check my style manual at 7:15 this morning.

Old School

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:54 AM

To McLain Ward:

I didn’t think it was McLain at first, but if it is, you have a lot of people going to bat for you. It would be enough to change my mind, if I knew specifics. If it is true you have given a public explanation and apology, and have been straight and clean to this day – it is something I want to hear.

I am a member of the outside public who follows this sport only through what I read at public sources. In other words, I don’t know you, McLain, or the horse you rode in on. Your sport’s leadership is not promoting you or your sport. That was the original thrust of my argument, that the past sport’s leadership has failed.

I have a bad impression. And as a member of the general public, you most certainly DO need to explain yourself to me: you just rode on my nation’s Olympic team. This idea that horse riders don’t have to interface with the real world is the attitude that rubs the public raw. This isn’t a private fantasy club. I don’t have to educate myself about you or this sport. I am the stupid, knee-jerk, short-attention-spanned, self-satisfied moral bigot that makes up the mainstream public. Change your tone. Ultimately, everything has to please the masses or die. You are in an important position, and you cannot snipe or disparage like the others.

If this industry does not learn to respect the point of view I represent, it has no future. English horsemanship uses too many resources and causes too much resentment: anyone who watched the foxhunting protesters being beaten could see the angry feelings made manifest.

If you want to step forward, if this is McLain, start a new topic and explain your story. Let people comment, and answer questions. Be open, and honest. I can change my mind even if I think you are guilty, if you are repentant. That’s how the stupid public mind works. And show a little respect for the fans.

Anne FS

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
I don’t have to educate myself about you or this sport. I am the stupid, knee-jerk, short-attention-spanned, self-satisfied moral bigot that makes up the mainstream public. Change your tone. Ultimately, everything has to please the masses or die.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I'd rather die than waste one minute changing my life to please that crowd.

khobstetter

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:13 AM

Old School... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

McLain does NOT need to explain himself to "YOU"!! You are a mean spirited person who will take ANYTHING he says and twist and shout with it.

We have an organization (you can like it or not BUT& we have one). THEY control for us.

If you don't like they way they control and oversee...get on the wagon, come to Tucson, go to the conventions..GET INVOLVED!!!! If you can't "go" then get educated ad make rule change suggestions...I have the proposal packet and there IS NOT ONE with your name as the submitter!!!!!!

Instead you come on here and become GOD http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif..did you not notice "he" posted here "himself" !!

BUT PLEASE !!!! Spare us your nasty approach at being pompus, pious, perfect and beyond reproach. WE ARE ALL A LITTLE OVER YOU HIGHJACKING THIS THREAD WITH YOUR TIRADES!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

You have turned this into a one person, personal viglante hunt for MW and PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE..

Take a mintue (or a thousand) and go clean your own back yard....THEN takes some meds and go back to sleep..we are over it (your continued repetative tirades)..AND SO SHOULD YOU BE!!!!!!!!!!

Fluffernutter

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:17 AM

Wow, will wonders never cease! In the past 24 hours, I've found myself agreeing with Lauriep AND KHOBSTETTER!!!!! Holy canoli!

khobstetter

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:22 AM

Flutternutter....I KNEW I liked you!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Let's have a COTH get together...you and me and LaurieP and ANYONE else who can come!!!!

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:27 AM

Well now as grandmom the kids who skip school for home schooling and live on the rode five day show after fivc day in motels and Tack Rooms have not the opportunity to become great communicators and certainly in this day an age I haven't seen much effort for anyone to know how to spell, just another notation from a dinosaur.

I think there is a valid debate as to image along with winning and doing the sports activity well. I don't think the Korean who protested the scoring did himself or gymnastics any favor with an exhibition of bad sportsmanship.

I must say I was shocked and sorely disappointed by an article written a few years back by Arlene Newman of Equestrian Talk where she quoted McLain as saying that if he were selected to be on the Olympic Team he was going to be riding for himself because this country had done nothing for him. I was offended by that statement and it certainly didn't make me feel better this year.

In any other country I don't think McLain would have had the opportunity to live down the damage done by his father. The Olympics afterall are not just another horse show, they are supposed to be a cut above all other athletic activities. While I bemoan the lost of respect and the disrepute that has befallen the Olympics in general I think it is a symptom of our times.

We do not take infractions of integrity and honor with the same pressure we once did. If it is true and the media made it sound as if the Olympics always had been a pagan, drunken meet where winning is all that mattered in any way. Then I must say my favorite athlete was "Brentina from Idaho to Athens' as a true inspiration to all of us.

That's a pity, we are one by one destroying all the goals and the striving for perfection and replacing it with "Winning" OR money is everything. I don't know what there is in the character of mankind that makes it want to destroy the idealistic dreamer.

I am however by training an artist first, and a student of philosophies and theologies. When we lose the character of accountability and responsibility for our actions, no matter how small, we set "civilization" back a 100 years.

Is anyone else amazed that in the 5000 years from when the greeks started analyzing and understanding so many mysteries of this world we have not improved a bit. In spite of the fact that the "Universal Being" by whatever name must be distraught to see that we are still building coliseums for spectators to watch blood sports. Imagine after all the phophets that have been sent to warn us, we still haven't learned because whenever we reach a peak of intellectual honor we drag it back down.

Please forgive my mispelling because it is not that I don't know better but at my age the fingers just don't find the right keys all the time. Like all of you in a rush to get too much done in a day, I don;t always take the time to proof read because we are friends, aren't we?

Old School makes a valid point about the public impressions and those eventually lead to public support by attendance and public sponsorship by public corportions. So it is an important issue whether a company in the business of selling product want's to be identified with a less than sterling reputation.

If we want to propose that this is a sports of elitism and winning gold then there is an image that needs to be presented. Statistically if you remove the poor but talented and the honest but not perfect soon the demographics will look good but the sport will have lost it's soul.

Duende

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:32 AM

WOW , it's amazing how many people can get on their soap boxes, preach and pass judgement on people they've never met.

There are many people in the U.S. that have been caught for drugging or any other offense. If the individual has paid the fine, done the suspension and is now in good standing who are we to pass judgment????

Mclain Ward served his "sentence" and was in good standing at the time of the selection trials and the Olympics. He is a phenomonal rider with a fantastic horse. He represented our country admirably by riding to his absolute best. For the children that were watching him that is what they were seeing. An example of VERY GOOD RIDING. They have no idea that there was a "questionable past." They saw American riders rise to the challenge that was put before them. They hear that other rider/horses have been caught with drugging their horses yet the American team was drug free.

Leave the man alone!!!!! The crimes of the past (whether they are committed by the individual or the family) are exactly that...crimes of the past. Appreciate the way the animals he currently rides are cared for. Appreciate the way he rides. He may be the nicest guy in the world or he could be a complete jerk. You cannot have an opinion if you've never met him. Again, get off your soap box and worry about your own backyard.

I can say that I was very proud of the U.S. Olympic Team. They went out and did their job and represented their country with pride!!!!!!!

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:40 AM

Duende are you not even a little bit concerned that all those infractions can become so acceptable? Where do we draw the line? Call it names if you like, a nasty thing to "preach" is only if you preach something nasty. Adolph Hitler didn't need to use a soap box! He preached a phiosophy that a lot of people learned to believe because it was presented in important places and not on a soapbox.

The soapbox is the podium of the unimportant, masses of people not important enough or sponsored by people rich enough to hire a hall. The soapbox is as traditional podium as is the Town Meeting.

A minority opinion should not be discounted and you shouldn't try to humilate the messenger because you don't like the message. Shut down the minority and you wind up with a Bastille day where the people of the streets kick down the walls let out the prisioners and behead the aristocracy that ignored their pain.

JustJump

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:41 AM

I have to say that the current Eruo-trend of admitting to the drug use, for whatever reason, is a refreshing change from the American BNTs' "mixed up feed bucket" story....

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:45 AM

My favorite was the "dirty paper money". No one ever did explain why there was only dirty paper money at the hunter/jumper shows and not at any of the other shows.

We will go full circle when some one says, "the devil made me do it".

harvestmoon

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:47 AM

I usually don't post on these types of threads, but I can't contain myself anymore. Wow, amazing. Old School, I don't know you. But from the way you are posting, you are appearing to be quite pompus. You claim that McLain needs to show respect to his fans? I have seen no disrespect (just from you, maybe). I simply see someone who is trying to defend himself from some comments (when he could simply just walk away). And why SHOULD he EXPLAIN himself to you? I applause him for coming on here and defending himself. McLain earned his spot on the Olympic team. He went to Athens and competed fair and square. I don't know. Blech. I feel I am making no sense now...so I will stop. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

867-5309

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Well now as grandmom the kids who skip school for home schooling and live on the rode five day show after fivc day in motels and Tack Rooms have not the opportunity to become great communicators . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So out of one side of your mouth you infer McLain Ward's grammar is poor due to being raised on the road.....

And out of the other you ask us to forgive you for your grammar?

Hello? When one casts aspersions on someone then asks for the same forgiveness a minute later- don't expect it!

(edited to add) Oh god, why am I even bothering?

Moesha

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:48 AM

I agree, how much do you want to punish and criticize people? NFL fans stand behind their sports greats in rape, murder, drug, assault, etc. cases over and over again...

Certainly some crimes are so horrendous that there can never be full retribution or amends...but we are not talking about that...we are talking about a decision passed down by a federation, put in place to govern such issues and the "punishment" they saw fit to impose...they imposed it, it concluded...end of story...the record still stands and can of course be used against an individual if further infractions occur...but as of now none have and none may ever..so it is done and over with.

Look at Ray Lewis...and most recently Kobe Bryant...
Lewis for his accomplishments at the superbowl was most valuable player right after a murder trial which had the general public divided the fact ...and look at the Ravens fans....talk about tainted judgement...he could have murdered someone in front of them and they would still fight anyone that claimed he was guilty...
I am not saying we should allow or condone such behavior...but some people on here are ready to burn anyone at the stake for what "they" consider moral infractions??

Mclain has not been accused of doing anything like his father was found guilty of, a whole seperate story, and has not been found to have done anything illegal at the olympics..so there should be no issue with regards to him being on the team and his tremendous accompishments there.

Duende

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:50 AM

Snowbird - my point was that there are people passing judgement against somone they do not know. Were they part of the committee that saw the original evidence? If the committe that saw the evidence, passed a sentence and feels that the time served is sufficient then we should then refrain from passing judgement.

As the parent of a child with special needs that constantly has unfair judgments passed against him I am acutely aware of how unfair people can be.

If you know the guy and he has done something that you witnessed that makes him less than stellar than go at it and have your opinion. Until that time reserve your judgment that apparently seems to be based on rumors.

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:53 AM

We cannot always wait to know someone and it is the principle and not the person that is to be protected.

Tiramit

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cindeye:

First, welcome to the board. Thank you for having the courage to respond to this thread personally.

Second, may I say I am proud to have you represent the U.S. on the team. In my humble opinion, the best riders and horses should be able to compete and you exemplify the very best we have to offer.

Third, please take into consideration that there are many people who post on these boards that do not believe in judging people...especially judging people based on the actions of their families or judging people we have never even met. To do so, again in my opinion, is prejudice at its very worst.

Finally, I hope you will return to the boards often and post in other topics. We can all benefit from the sharing of information by someone of your experience and expertise!

Thanks for your comments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said, Cindeye!

Welcome to the boards, McLain! You and Sapphire more than earned your medal in Athens and it was a pleasure to cheer for you. Successfully competing a greener horse (even a superstar like Sapphire) around Olympic courses could only have been accomplished by a master rider - the kind anyone would want on their team. You certainly proved your skills to the world (as if you needed to show us again how good you really are). Well done!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 08:58 AM

No one here has said any infractions are "acceptable." What has been said is that the case against McLain, NOT his father, has been judged, adjudicated and he has received and served his sentence. CASE CLOSED! NO ONE should have to continue paying for a mistake of this nature, whether it happened or not, for the rest of their lives. If they repeat, well, then shame on them. But for now, let it go already.

Until the public starts to take offense at all the problems that are continually plaguing professional ANYTHING (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, and on and on), or track, weightlifting, swimming, and sponsors start to pull their support from THOSE sports, I highly doubt little old equestrian is in any grave danger. The tests are out there, it is clear that people are getting caught, so the system IS working. The problem is, and continues to be, the zero tolerance policy that takes away much of the legitimate use of therapeutic medication.

And OS, McLain doesn't owe you squat for an explanation!

Duende

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:00 AM

So you're saying that it doesn't matter that we have never met an individual. We can pass judgement based on information that we may have gathered 3rd, 4th, 5th hand?

From the previous posts it is most certainly a personal attack against MW not the principle. I've never met the man and probably never will therefore will reserve my judgment on what type of person he is. I will allow my daughter to watch him compete so that she can witness a great rider on wonderfully cared for horses.

Moesha

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:00 AM

Not to take this into a different topic, and I have to go...but..I think there is a propensity in the Hunter/Jumper world and especially on the Buletin Boards....for people to make comments and judgements about riders moral behavior...where as other sports those involved conentrate on the sport itself...riding is so unique, because the "Average" ,and there is no such thing!!, Riders may compete..and thus there exists a different attitude and invested interest in bettering the sport on a whole....ann maybe we are more socially aware...and have higher standards I don't know....but I wonder if this attitude has any impact on why so many of our federations and governing bodies are taking the routes they are and so many feel powerless to stop the decisions and feel they have no representation or voice? Maybe we should concentrate more on the sport and less on rumours and innuendos and the vocalization should be more geared on making the sport better?

Old School

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:05 AM

Anne FS: "I think I'd rather die than waste one minute changing my life to please that crowd."

Hon, it ain't a crowd, it's society. "Horse show people" are a crowd. And if your life would change by being open and receptive to people you don't agree with, you're already dead.

McLain?

God

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
Old School... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

McLain does NOT need to explain himself to "YOU"!! You are a mean spirited person who will take ANYTHING he says and twist and shout with it.

We have an organization (you can like it or not BUT& we have one). THEY control for us.

If you don't like they way they control and oversee...get on the wagon, come to Tucson, go to the conventions..GET INVOLVED!!!! If you can't "go" then get educated ad make rule change suggestions...I have the proposal packet and there IS NOT ONE with your name as the submitter!!!!!!

Instead you come on here and become GOD http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif..did you not notice "he" posted here "himself" !!

_BUT PLEASE !!!!_ Spare us your nasty approach at being pompus, pious, perfect and beyond reproach. WE ARE ALL A LITTLE OVER YOU HIGHJACKING THIS THREAD WITH YOUR TIRADES!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

You have turned this into a one person, personal viglante hunt for MW and PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE..

Take a mintue (or a thousand) and go clean your own back yard....THEN takes some meds and go back to sleep..we are over it (your continued repetative tirades)..AND SO SHOULD YOU BE!!!!!!!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen.

Jair

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:10 AM

Two thoughts this morning over my Starbucks:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>The Bettina Hoy incident is definitely turning into somesort of Equestrian Intrigue. I was never one to believe the conspiracy theory about the Germans + Warmbloods, but you know, as soon as I saw the results of the X-country (where the Germans typcially did not do well) I started to wonder... it was a little... shall we say...coincidental that the German Team in the first Olympic short format 3-Day were ahead because of their dressage and showjumping combined with a reduced dimension x-country and new rule that put 5 riders on a team instead of 4. And then add on the possible doping with Benadryl as a calming agent instead of medical... way too bizzare.

<LI> Now, no flames on this one, and although I really really do not agree with Old School on any of her ideas, I did think that McLain should have tempered his thoughts before posting. This is said with respect, but I've always felt that someone in a public profile position such as Olympic Athlete do have an obligation to the public, and should be able to remain tactful in all situations. Hard I'm sure, but I did find that some of McLain's comments were not quite what I would expect from a public figure. [/list]

Old School

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:11 AM

Some people want to make this personal, and they have, so we get what we get. But this was originally about McLain the icon, not McLain the person. Those so busy attacking don't bother to understand.

In fact, this wasn't even about McLain, it was about the failures of leadership in the sport that brought about the public relations doping debacle. I was jumped upon for a throwaway accusation by Glimmerglass, and NOW it's about McLain.

Thanks for the opportunity to get this out and public.

RugBug

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
Anne FS: "I think I'd rather die than waste one minute changing my life to please that crowd."

Hon, it ain't a crowd, it's society. "Horse show people" are a crowd.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Society couldn't care less about equestrian sports. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The only ones who care are those in the crowd. Heck, I'm even in the "crowd", and for the 12 years I was out of riding, I heard NOTHING about the sport, nothing.

When I happen to catch televised GP's, I can't even get my 'watch-whatver-sport-is-on-even-if-it-is-bowling' friends to sit through the coverage. Those not in the crowd really don't care about the sport.

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:13 AM

TSK! TSK!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So out of one side of your mouth you infer McLain Ward's grammar is poor due to being raised on the road.....

And out of the other you ask us to forgive you for your grammar?

Hello? When one casts aspersions on someone then asks for the same forgiveness a minute later- don't expect it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can live with that!

But, there is a difference between a young stud who never learned and an old bag who has forgotten what they knew.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:14 AM

McLain has had to deal with a whole lot more than the average Olympic athlete, with constant attacks on himself and his family over MANY years. Perhaps he is a wee bit sensitive - I don't blame him. He also ONLY posts when he can't take it anymore, or the rumor and innuendo (what, here?) crosses the line. I assure you, he is one of the most polite, well spoken people that I know in the business, and he is well thought of by all of his peers.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
Some people want to make this personal, and they have, so we get what we get. But this was originally about McLain the icon, not McLain the person. Those so busy attacking don't bother to understand.

In fact, this wasn't even about McLain, it was about the failures of leadership in the sport that brought about the public relations doping debacle. I was jumped upon for a throwaway accusation by Glimmerglass, and NOW it's about McLain.

Thanks for the opportunity to get this out and public. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

McLain an icon? Oh, now I know we aren't in Kansas anymore! I'm sure he will get a huge chuckle out of that, especially considering the source.

OS, you ALWAYS make your posts personal, and have an agenda when you do so. So don't try that tack; the posters here aren't that gullible.

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:18 AM

Which is why I am more interested in the principles than the person. We spent many a thread bemoaning the fact that people who were violators should be fined to cover the costs of the program.

I trust then that Mclain would take back his own statements where he published that "this country had never done anything for him". I think it is commendable that in spite of the odds he has proved himself to so many people and that is due to the wondorous fact that this is an amazing free country where someone does get two chances DON'T YOU THINK?

RugBug

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mclain ward:
The best in the world are the best because of first a desire, second and oppertunity, third great sponsors and support staff and most importantly a lot of hard work. Have they made mistakes? I am sure they have like most everyone else. Sometimes people loose sight and push the envolope to far, but if they are going to have any sustained successe they must learn from those mistakes. Any athelete who does well over a long period has done through true effort, thats bottom line! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This quote is pretty tactful and is right on the money.

Anne FS

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School: And if your life would change by being open and receptive to people you don't agree with, you're already dead.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I DO try to be open and receptive to people I don't agree with. However, that's a far cry from changing what I do and how I act in order to appease "stupid, knee-jerk...moral bigots" who never will be appeased. That's silly. Not to mention that would be morally wrong - to change a course of action to appease a "stupid moral bigot." LOL. It ain't gonna happen. Although people do it all the time, this girl won't.

Coreene

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:24 AM

I loff the sound of bitchslap in the morning. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Tiramit

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:29 AM

I finally read through this entire thread and can't believe the tangents! Jair's original post dealt with several riders at the 2004 Athens Olympics whose horses tested positive for a level of an illegal (for competition) substance.

All of our athletes were clean. ALL of them. Better say that again, all the U.S. riders were clean. Phew, glad that's now clear! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

By the standards of this thread, we really should be debating the morals, ethics, and past histories of those who tested positive this time instead of our own squeaky clean, play-by-the-rules team. Those teams who knew that the FEI tests would be super-sensitive, but still got caught. Hmm.

So Old School, what dirt do you have on Bettina and Ludger? I bet school children all across Germany are wailing over their fallen heros.... Certainly you HAVE to have some nasty comments about them????

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:29 AM

Snowy, I don't know the context that McLain made the statement, but I can surmise that it was said out of frustration with a system, and people such as those here, who continually hound him and hold him to a higher mark because of his heritage than they do any others.

I think it is also important to point out that we have had little to NO problem with HUMAN drug violations (yes, I remember Eric Lamaze's problems), something that other sports cannot say. So, hard though it is to believe, all is not lost in equestrian sports.

Jair

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
I assure you, he is one of the most polite, well spoken people that I know in the business, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember thinking that whenever I heard him interviewed on TV, which is why I was surprised at his written words here. I confess I didn't believe that he was who he said he was when I read his first reply here. (the spelling didn't help either lol http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

So, back to a question I asked a few pages ago: does anyone remember any equestrian doping infractions from the last few Olympics? It would be interesting to compare.

Glimmerglass

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
I was jumped upon for a throwaway accusation by Glimmerglass, and NOW it's about McLain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I took issue with a few of your comments in general, but indeed the snide inference on McLain did tick me off. No I'm some PR agent for his image, but as this thread has shown most people (including myself) are vocal in saying it isn't right to hold massive bias against the guy.

The MW tangent aside, I'm still dumbfounded by your comments regarding the whole America as a superpower stance in equestrianism. How this thread starts off with a few Euro riders who test positive for substances they admit to have used and then turns into a crimination of American riders is beyond me.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 09:52 AM

Jair, I personally don't remember any problems, but it doesn't mean that things weren't going on. They were, but a lot of things have changed since even 2000. The tests get more sensitive, the pressure to test more riders/horses gets greater, the internet/BBs get more and more adept at conveying the information instantaneously, the followers of the sport get more educated/curious/judgemental (take your pick), more information is exchanged from one country to the other, etc. And, how the FEI handles their positives has also changed. The FEI is an even OLDER "good ole boy" network than our association is, with all of the inherent secrecy and protectionism. Now, they are being called on it and so, we are getting more information than ever before.

So, long and short, although I don't remember any other trouble at previous Olympics, the reasons aren't so cut and dried as to be traceable to an increase in doping.

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:02 AM

LaurieP I do agree, however don't forget in the case of equestrian the horse is the athlete. I think we react to some of the horror stories of horse abuse and carry a grudge.

In McLain's case even the very tactful quote says it's all about him. Being from the World War II generation I am offended that he didn;t say how grateful he was to this country for giving him the chance to stand with the very athletes in the world and be counted as one of them. Our tax money goes to support USOC and is part of the gifts of winning.

I'm still stinging a little I guess because when asked the Board of Directors said that although neither USHJA nor NHJA had an effective business plan they gave the go-ahead to Bill Moroney because he said we, and Gary Baker said I.

I can agree with that, but then I wonder why it doesn't extend into other areas of the sport.

Glimmerglass is is a simple matter of progressive thought or word association if you think about it, we started with four horses that were questionable. I haven't heard how the second tests came out.

1. (Thought)four horses were not clean from drugs!

2. We proceed to other athletes who have been caught in the past.

3. Names come up of the most notable cases.

4. The same process that gets OJ Simpson in the news on a regular basis as a wife beater who got away with it.

please note I said process and this is not an analogy between abused horses and abused women.)

But surely, now Glimmerglass you can see how easily this thread could dissolve into an OJ Simpson thread and abused women instead of drugged athletes.

Duffy

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:08 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Snowbird - how did I know that Bill and Gary would somehow come into play on this thread as well! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

caffeinated

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:10 AM

Wow, I never knew speaking your mind or saying how you feel about something was somehow disrespectful to America...

I'm confused. But then, I may just have not had enough coffee today.

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:13 AM

In think Lauriep you hit the nail on the head and rather than the doping of athletes the big news has been the judging criteria and standards and the nit picky rules from a very large, very protectionist "old boys" network with tons of money at stake as well as prestige.

I found the gymnastics situation particularly illuminating. The essence was well OK! a mistake was made but the appeal was too late. It never said that it wouldn't have changed anything because if the one gymnast had started with the higher score he would have lost anyway because of errors 1, 2 and 3 in the performance.

Perhaps, they will have to consider instant replays before they judge; rather like the umpires at a ball game. Then they would also have to declare national prejudices as a conflict of interest.

Again, I think too much governance is worse than too little governance. What we have now on the team selection is the removal of personal choices perhaps at some point in the further the computer will become so smart that computers can be programed with what are errors and make the judgements. Judges will just do points for style.

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:15 AM

Just goes to show how easy it is to turn a phrase. Duffy you see we all have a different association of from what words mean.

Caffienated it does matter on the contest. If you're discussing something which is intended to be Nationalistic Games then it matters. If we were simply discussing individuals not on a Team for a country it doesn;t matter. Thereby is the difference between the Olympics and just another horse show.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:17 AM

"LaurieP I do agree, however don't forget in the case of equestrian the horse is the athlete. I think we react to some of the horror stories of horse abuse and carry a grudge."

Actually, no, we have 2 athletes involved, ao really it could be a double whammy, but we seem to be able to stay above the human drug fray.

And, I wish we would be more careful with using the "abuse" word where it really belongs. Giving your horse something to enhance performance is cheating, yes, but drugging and abuse are not necessarily the same thing, and that is where I have a problem with the over generalizing that goes on here.

Erin

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:18 AM

Old School, I am honestly curious as to why you think equestrians should be on some kind of moral pedestal in order to promote the sport to the general public.

I mean, if you look at the sports that are actually POPULAR in this country (i.e. they get shown on TV and millions of people watch), you've got murderers, rapists, TONS of drug problems, wife beaters, gamblers, and so on.

And I don't see a whole heck of a lot of people turning off the NBA playoffs because Kobe was accused of rape.

Now, I'm not saying that's a good thing... but it does shoot some holes in what seems to be your argument, that in order to be accepted by the general public, equestrians must be squeaky clean.

I'm also curious as to exactly what you would propose, other than a public drubbing for people who have been set down by the USEF or an international body. How would YOU have set up the selection criteria for the Athens Olympics in order to prevent what you see as this great injustice?

We have a selection process that is objective, and that's really a necessity in this litigious age. The only subjectivity is with regard to the two (?) bye spots that were granted. Are you saying now that selectors should be able to strike people who have qualified for the team because they are not satisfied with an apology or explanation they may or may not have given for a past infraction, for which they have already paid their fine/served their suspension???

It's all well and good to say that you think Mr. or Ms. BNR is a horrible example of horsemanship because they were convicted of XYZ years ago, if that's your opinion. But realistically, how do you expect to have "being a good horseman" or "being a good role model" written into the selection criteria?

Our sports have rules to encourage fair play, and our governing bodies mete out punishments when those rules are broken. Because of that, we can tell the general public that the equestrian community cares about horsemanship, fair play, and the welfare of our horses. The individuals who have most flagrantly violated those standards have been banned from the sport FOR LIFE. (George Lindemann Jr., for example. I think it's safe to say his Olympic aspirations are permanently dashed.)

But otherwise, I say that when someone is in good standing, they're as deserving as an Olympic spot as anyone else, if they qualify fair and square. Now, you don't have to LIKE them. But they earned the chance to be there.

Duffy

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:20 AM

Well said, Erin.

Cindeye

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Snowbird:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>In any other country I don't think McLain would have had the opportunity to live down the damage done by his father. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is precisely why I want to live in this country. Because noone, let me repeat NOONE, should have to be responsible for or apologize for the actions of their father, any other member of their family, any member of their religious, ethnic or racial backgrounds. Now to get on my soap box...my parents taught me from a very young age not to judge people I don't know by what others say (including the news media), by with whom they associate, or by with which group they may belong. I hope I live up to their legacy in this regard.

One more plea for sanity: if you don't know McLain please stop making assumptions to fill the void wherein you do not have the facts. Individuals who did have the facts believe they meted out an appropriate punishment and reinstated McLain as is their right.

McLain -- I don't give a rat's a$$ whether or not you can spell. Last time I checked, this was not a requirement for your professional field.

Old School -- I am not sucking up to anyone. Just trying to offer a constructive point of view without finger pointing or personal attacks. You should try it some time!

OK, this is absolutely my last post on this thread! Must...resist...temptation...to...respond...to...p osts...by...Old...School!

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:25 AM

Yes, well said Erin! Thanks!

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:28 AM

Point well taken Lauriep you are correct and I admit I was thinking back to two threads that boggled my mind. One was the electric shock to the teeth of horses to make them better, and the other has me having nightmares where people discussed horses being made addicts and then being forced to go cold turkey in time to pass the tests at a show.

I can't get past that picture of the poor happy "high" horse not understanding why he feels so rotten.

Coreene

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:34 AM

Funny, I never saw where being a role model was part of the gig.

RugBug

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
In McLain's case even the very tactful quote says it's all about him. Being from the World War II generation I am offended that he didn;t say how grateful he was to this country for giving him the chance to stand with the very athletes in the world and be counted as one of them. Our tax money goes to support USOC and is part of the gifts of winning.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if the quote was concerning the chance to ride in the Olympics, then maybe something along those lines would've been included. However, the quote was regarding the sport of showjumping as a whole...not one specific competition. Adding different context to quotes isn't playing fair.

khobstetter

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:44 AM

Snowbird...can you please give us a link or a direct reference to where and when McLain said that...I never heard it BUT I would be interested to see it in print.

Thanks

Old School

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:55 AM

Do people on this thread realize I am unaware of McLain's virtues? I'm not inside this sport. I don't know anything except that his father helped put a knee to the groin of show jumping, that he was banned from Aachen for chipping, and that he was put on our Olympic team. It's not a good story that I know.

So far, as a member of the Public, I hear mostly justifications and closing ranks around a criminal. If that is not the case, educate me. But respectfully, nicely, because that is how you have to treat the Public.

I have never heard an apology, or any kind of repentence. I don't hear it now, either, which seems to go to the point.

McLain came on this BB to defend himself through personalized arguementation. I ask him to come back and explain his actions, honestly, and take some questions. He had time to defend himself, so he has time to meet his public.

If what people are saying is true and McLain has reformed and is staying clean - THAT'S GREAT NEWS! Tell the world, it's exactly the kind of press the sport needs! The USEF or whoever takes money for leading this sport should work up talking points, put out a press release, and exhonerate that ugly chapter.

If McLain is repentent and reformed, help him. Some of the defenders on the BB could even get together with McLain and help him write his story. If he is truly a poster child for what is right with the sport, he needs talking points, people. If true, this is a great pr piece, compelling and positive. Oprah would love it.

Anyone can get behind someone that makes mistakes and apologizes for them, and moves forward renewed. But that story has not been told to the almighty, dispicable, Public.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 10:58 AM

That is why we must be careful in how we describe abuse. What you described is certainly abuse, but the kind of "medicating" that goes on to "cheat" doesn't fit, and we should take care not to minimize the true meaning of abuse by ascribing it to these doping allegations.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:06 AM

Old School, TRY to understand this once and for all. A: McLain doesn't owe you, or anyone else an explanation. B: He is not a criminal C: His case was never proven, but the way the FEI is run, they didn't have to prove it. He took his punishment to get it over with and move on D: Quit using him, personally, as an example of what is wrong with this sport. His infraction didn't involve drugging or abuse, if it even happened. If you are so worried about the public perception of our sport, than focus on the MUCH more widespread methods of cheating involving pharmaceuticals. Or, can't you find enough fuel for your fire on that topic?

The deeds of Barney Ward have been documented ad nauseum. They have nothing to do with McLain, so that part of your horror at his being on the team doesn't wash. And McLain's minor scuffle with the powers certainly never appeared on the public radar. Ergo, no public apology necessary. So, move on!

CuteHunter

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:09 AM

I dont have much to add to this thread - but just in response to several people's shocked reaction to McLain being tested 5 times in a year - I have a family member who is on the Canadian Equestrian team - he is drug tested every single month. So 5 times a year isnt much compared to 12 times a year. I'm not making a comment on it either just to throw out there that athletes know going in that they have to be drug tested - small price to pay for such a great job is the attitude of my family member.

Galileo1998

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by CuteHunter:
I dont have much to add to this thread - but just in response to several people's shocked reaction to McLain being tested 5 times in a year - I have a family member who is on the Canadian Equestrian team - he is drug tested every single month. So 5 times a year isnt much compared to 12 times a year. I'm not making a comment on it either just to throw out there that athletes know going in that they have to be drug tested - small price to pay for such a great job is the attitude of my family member. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have to know that everyone reading this will wonder if your family member that is tested 12 times a year is Eric http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Midge

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:I'm not inside this sport. I don't know anything except that his father helped put a knee to the groin of show jumping, that he was banned from Aachen for chipping, and that he was put on our Olympic team. It's not a good story that I know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this is all you know, why are you so insistent on something about which you are self-admittedly woefully ignorant?? For myself, I wouldn't cross the street to piss on Barney Ward if he was on fire, but you do realize McLain was a child at the time of his father's wrongdoing? McLain WON his place on the Olympic team, wasn't placed on it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> But respectfully, nicely, because that is how you have to treat the Public. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Who says?,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If what people are saying is true and McLain has reformed and is staying clean - THAT'S GREAT NEWS! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reformed from what? Staying clean from what?

You do know the the point of this thread was the EUREOPEAN riders caught up in a drug scandal and that all AMERICANS tested clean ?

Cindeye

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:16 AM

Midge...love the location!

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:18 AM

LOL, Cindeye! THAT didn't last long, did it??

Cindeye

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:26 AM

Crap. Caught with my hand in the cookie jar! OK, really, I'm serious now...ABSOLUTELY MY LAST POST ON THIS THREAD!

nycjumper

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:26 AM

Can't stay away....

A) The public doesn't give a rat's ass about our sport. Not b/c of or in spite of the current scandal du jour. Most people just find it boring.

B) As far as people yipping about MW being on the Olympics - get over it. He was eligible & made the team. End of story.

C) I will be interested to see if the FEI makes any changes to its drug policy based on recent findings at Olympics, etc. Is it better to have our policy or theirs?

CuteHunter

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:28 AM

Galileo1998- never even thought about that! Haha! I wont say who it is (since it says nothing about me or my riding so why bother and because I dont want anything I ever say to be connected to him in any negative way) but I can categorically say its not Eric (not that I would mind having that kind of riding and horse talent in my family!)

khobstetter

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:34 AM

Geemanie Zeemanie Old School..what the heck is up your but&%*^!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If what people are saying is true and McLain has reformed and is staying clean - THAT'S GREAT NEWS! Tell the world, it's exactly the kind of press the sport needs <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FOR GAWD'S SAKE OLDSch !!!! He did not have to "reform" from anything....BUT for YOUR intrepretation : HE DID "TELL THE WORLD"...HE MADE THE OLYMPIC TEAM, SHOWED WITH THE TEAM AT AACHEN, RODE GREAT IN ATHENS !!!!! If that's not enough of a statement for you....NOTHING WILL BE!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I don't know anything except that his father helped put a knee to the groin of show jumping, that he was banned from Aachen for chipping, and that he was put on our Olympic team. It's not a good story that I know.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THAT, DEAR OldSch...is a GREAT story. He has overcome ALOT...certainly more than you or I ever will.....HE IS NOT HIS FATHER !!

He is not responsible for his father's actions, in the BEST interest of the sport he proclaimed his innocence but sat out the AACHEN thing, set the situation RIGHT with AACHEN, rode in ALL our trials, SUCCEEDED, and did a super job in Athens!!!!

Since you keep "riding" AACHEN.....there was soooooooooooo much controversy around that situation!! Unless YOU personally were involved in the "official" handling of that situation....YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO KEEP THROWING IT UP IN THE AIR TO SEE IF IT "STICKS TO THE WALL" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You have a stick up you patootie for McLain,...

I for one would LOVE to know the REAL reason you cannot get a grip here!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

There is a marvelous OLD saying...."Me thinks thou doest protest TOO MUCH" !!!! When people squeal and screeach and squawk as much as you have here..it is usually idictative of something latent in their own life...

Are you simply resentful that your experience with the sport did not get you to the top??????

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If McLain is repentent and reformed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OH PLEASE...WHO MADE YOU THE JUDGE AND JURY OF JUST HOW HE HANDLES HIS LIFE.....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If he is truly a poster child for what is right with the sport, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> where did you get THAT????? WOW you can twist words....

AGAIN, go take some meds and go back to sleep....

jumper11

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:37 AM

ARE YOU KIDDING?? Yeah Oprah will I'm sure jump at the chance to interview MW... Nobody cares, and obviously you are not just a member of "The Public" as you like to refer to us/them whatever, because you know who McLain Ward is. If I asked any of my non horse friends they would have no clue who he is and definately wouldn't watch an Oprah episode about him. No offence, but it's true. You are at the same time insulting and trying to make a point in regards to the public, but you are making no sense. So therefore you should just quit....

caffeinated

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:41 AM

I dunno, jumper, a lot of people would watch an Oprah episode about dung beetles or bunions.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

mclain ward

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:41 AM

I figured while i sat down for lunch i would have a look to see if this topic was closed or not. To my shock it certainly was not, and made for some interesting reading. So i will make one last post and then be gone as they say. By the way i will try to watch the spelling for those concerned.

I would like to thank all those who have said such wonderful comments and been so supportive. As for curbing my rants to the public, most of you are not really the general public. Most of you are horse involved on some level and your certainly right, i was angry about what was written about me! I wanted to make that clear to those who make such strong statements about thing's they don't have much knowledge on.

As for defending myself, i don't have any need for that. The past is behind me, the future ahead. My life is an open book for those who are interested in knowing about me and i am fine with that. So love me or hate me but if you are going to attack me know your facts and if you have the courage do it to my face.

I have a wonderful life because of these horses and i owe them the world. I am proud to represent my country and even more proud of the team i was part of. As for snowbird, i have never enjoyed your point of view on these boards so we will leave well enough alone. As for the poster who would not piss on my father, i hope we never meet.
As for the rest i hope you enjoy your next show. Bye

Anne FS

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
Snowbird...can you please give us a link or a direct reference to where and when McLain said that...I never heard it BUT I would be interested to see it in print.

Thanks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It must've been in Practical Horseman or something because I distinctly remember reading it myself, and COH and PH and Equus are about the only horsey pubs I read. I think it was around the time of the 2000 Olympic selection trials, but can't be sure. I do remember thinking (sorry, but it's true) oh, what if he makes the team? He came across so poorly with that quote. Nowadays I'm willing to say it was just youthful arrogance and he wouldn't say that now, but it sounded awful at the time. But Fate decreed he didn't make the team that time, and this time, he did, and performed beautifully. We've all said things we wished we hadn't.

Midge

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:43 AM

Cindeye, when I was thinking of shownames, Pastor Inqvist was a contender. Guess what I settled on? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

caffeinated

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:44 AM

by the way, mclain, do know that I was not in any sense comparing you to a dung beetle, but merely trying to make a point about Oprah.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Heidi

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:47 AM

Who died and made you The Public, Old School? The singular, omniscient, morally righteous individual at whose feet everyone must apologize, repent, beg forgiveness and genuflect? Have you stolen my mother's password?

Duende

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:49 AM

Mclain if you're still around...well said!!!

BTW, the puissance photo on Towerheads is incredible!

If my daughter grows up and rides as well as you do I would certainly be a proud parent! I'm sure that your father is extremely proud of the way his son has turned out.

Good luck!

jumper11

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by caffeinated:
by the way, mclain, do know that I was not in any sense comparing you to a dung beetle, but merely trying to make a point about Oprah.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I would certainly choose to watch McLain on Oprah over a dung beetle as well....

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:02 PM

For whoever asked, I did mention that it was in Equestrian Talk Magazine, not on the web in an interview with MacLain and his father by Arlene Newman and the issue had a picture on the cover of McLain and his father I believe. To the best of my knowledge what she wrote was never challenged at the time.

McLain I am not surprised that you don't agree with a lot of my positions because as one of the ones lucky enough to have the contacts to get superb sponsors to buy marvelous horses in essence you have been very fortunate. The beneficiaries of sponsorships rarely are in agreement. And they never see the impact of those special interests.

I just happen to believe that there is a better way to find out who the best riders might be. And, I think there might be some young people from nowwheresville USA that are talented but simply don't know the right people to make the right contacts.

Whether it is music, drama or dance, it is not exclusively a horse problem. Originally while some of our greatest art was created because of sponsors it also limited these artists as to what they could produce. So as a general principle I think it is a hangover of the Middle Ages.

Although you may not be aware back in the 50's and 60's I was equally vocal regarding the plight of the artist. I'd like to believe it had impact on freeing the arts from the yoke of sponsorship and government money.

Magnolia

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If what people are saying is true and McLain has reformed and is staying clean - <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is McLain Ward even reformed from? I don't believe he was ever "unclean".

Old School, why do you even care about what a 20 something rider does? Unless you know something no one else knows, why keep harassing. McLain Ward is a rider. A good rider. One good enough to be in the Olympics. In a sport that is about as important to the average American as competitive canoeing. He is not a hero, a leader, an example, a felon or anything else that important to mankind.

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:28 PM

I don't think Old School or myself are discussing or questioning the ability of McLain. I think he is an extraordinaryly good rider.

What is the issue is that as a sport we always become defensive and protectionist and we do not work to plan "crowd pleasers" These are events with some suspense and the possibility of disaster. What attracted spectators to the National Horse Show was the Galloping Grandfather Harry Deleyer who was not afraid to be vocal and make his trip more than just a trip but a performance. The same can be said for Barney Ward who was a superb performer and crowd pleaser in his day, but who can ever forget the "HUN"?

All these threads always wind up with the fact that spectators are not worth the trouble and Old School is trying to show you that the great unwashed mass of humanity is what you need if you don't want the exhibitors to have to pick up the freight for costs.

So you all can decide as important athletes whether or not you care about a fan club, do you care about the audience who paid $50.00 for a seat and saw nothing but you all applauding each other. I went to only one performance at the Meadowlands and saw a total of 16 horses go. The rest were presentations of all kinds about which I had no reason to be interested.

Unfortunately, our "show case shows" are not enough horse show to excite horsepeople and not enough entertainment to attract spectators. Look at the reserved boxes and see how many are empty down at eye level with the camera which is making the telecast. Obviously, even tose involved don't care enough to sit through a performance.

This presents a problem because today we have a CEO who has been employed to get coverage for these shows and National Corporate sponsors. I think you need to consider the entertainment of the great ignorant unwashed mass of society if you want the juicy gold at the end of the road from the sponsors.

Of our High Performace Competitors only one has her own website, produced a documentary of which to be proud and makes her fans feel part of her Olympic experience and even her life. She makes her horse the star, she doesn't even ask for equal billing with him.

Who can forget the famous horse stories of the personality horses. How many movies have been made about them? Has there been one about any of our athletes with two legs? People love horses, they want to be friends with those horses. They want to know those horses.

The Puissance was the one night that was assured of a sellout for the old National and what happened to it. The jump off riders did not want to waste their horses without more money and so leave the class tied. Not one thought was given to the thousands there who had spent hard earned money for a ticket to see the world record broken. I still remember the goose bumps when Tony D'Ambroso and Sympatico did the deed. I remember not the rider but that brave horse coming down the line to a wall that was higher than his head and be willing to leave the ground and tuck and try.

Old School

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:38 PM

McLain, you didn't even try.

Maybe because of the blindly supportive fans he apparently has, the man doesn't feel he owes anyone an explanation. McLain has time to come here and be rude and arrogant, but can he be bothered to do anything to help the sport he has divided so bitterly? No. Could he post a positive declaration of repentence?

No, because he's NOT. Thank you, McLain. The terrain is becoming ever more clear.

khobstetter

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:42 PM

ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNN!!!!

Please come and put Old School (and all of us too!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif) out of our misery...CLOSE THIS MESS.

When Old School got to "work" and put on the Priest robe and went into the confessional to wait for McLain...I think someone had it tented for termits and the fumes got to Old Schools head....

Otherwise why would OldSch still be in the confessional waiting for "repentance"??????? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

RugBug

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:44 PM

Two words....

READING COMPREHENSION

caffeinated

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:44 PM

repentence for what?

You said earlier you don't know all the inside stuff of the jumper world. Then turn around and insist he's guilty of something even though it's been pointed out that nothing was ever really proven about that.

How is he "not bothering to help the sport?" Here's a guy who put in such a great performance last saturday night it got my totally non-horsey friend EXCITED about a sport she previously thought was boring. Here's a guy who has tried to break puissance records, and has made things exciting for fans of the sport.

What more does he owe "the sport," exactly? What more does he owe you?

Do you want him to make a plate of cookies and bring them to your door or something?

harvestmoon

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:45 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Janet

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
McLain, you didn't even try.

Maybe because of the blindly supportive fans he apparently has, the man doesn't feel he owes anyone an explanation. McLain has time to come here and be rude and arrogant, but can he be bothered to do anything to help the sport he has divided so bitterly? No. Could he post a positive declaration of repentence?

No, because he's NOT. Thank you, McLain. The terrain is becoming ever more clear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Huh?

I think you are becoming delusional. Where was McLain "rude and arrogant"? In what sense has McLain "divided the sport". Repentence for what? Saying something stupid?

I am certainly no apologist for either of the Wards (check some of my previous posts), and I remain sceptical about what did or didn't happen in Aachen. But you seem to be picking things out of thin air.

Magnolia

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:45 PM

Old School-

What did McLain need to explain? What his dad did? What happened at AAchen? Why his bit broke? How did he divide the sport?

I found his posts neither rude nor arrogant, certainly not any more than yours.

Guess what, Old School, HE DIDN'T TEST POSITIVE AT THE OLYMPICS. HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG! Sorry, I'm sure it would please you to see him pulled for drugging.

I won't go so far as to call myself a McLain fan - I was cheering for Beezie. But it is irritating to see someone attacked who did nothing wrong.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:46 PM

HE HAS DIVIDED THE SPORT??? Oh, my, God, you are even more out of touch than I was going to give you credit for! You need to go back to H/J History 101 and start over, because you failed the first time around.

The only thing that has divided this sport, and again, it is nothing the "unwashed masses" would know anything about, is the lawsuits of the '80s and '90s, whose repercussions are only just beginning to be healed.

Before McLain even THOUGHT about replying to your slander, perhaps YOU would come clean with just what you have against HIM!? Did he steal a customer from you? No, a 10 year absence by you would have made him pretty young to do that. Are you a friend of someone who he has supposedly done dirt to? BEcause you are WAY to obsessed with him for this to be just an "illustration" of your POV.

You continue to hide your identity, yet want your word to be law. Quit wasting your time, it ain't gonna happen.

Erin

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:48 PM

Good grief, Old School, since when is the sport "bitterly" divided on how on earth is it McLain's fault?

There are plenty of people who have strong opinions on McLain (good AND bad), and there have been tons of threads to that effect over the years. Please, do a search... you'll have plenty of reading to occupy you for a long, long time.

You're welcome to whatever opinion of him you like, but I think it's disingenuous to say that the whole horse world is "blindly supportive" and claim that he's responsible for some sort of percieved division in the sport. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm sure he's responsible for it in YOUR mind, but again, just cuz you think it don't make it so.

slp

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:

the man doesn't feel he owes anyone an explanation. McLain has time to come here and be rude and arrogant, but can he be bothered to do anything to help the sport he has divided so bitterly? No. Could he post a positive declaration of repentence? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An explaination for WHAT? Being a fantastic rider and competing in the Olympics?
A declaration of repentance for WHAT? After 11 pages I still don't have a clue as to what you are condemning him for.
And now he is also responsible for this supposed downfall of the sport, "the sport he has divided so bitterly"?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Definately a "Where's The Fruitbat" moment here.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Erin

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:52 PM

BTW, I do think that McLain said quite a bit in the press around the time of the Aachen incident (which was several YEARS ago, wasn't it?)... have you actually bothered to read any of that?

khobbstetter, please, in the name of all that is holy, don't whine my name in capital letters in the middle of a thread like a petulant 2 year old. Egad, it makes my skin crawl. There is a reason I do not have any two-legged babies!

There is no reason to close this thread as long as it remains civil. I don't close things just because people are saying things that others don't agree with.

shade

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:54 PM

Ok this is driving me nuts..what the he** does MW have to explain???? I'm sorry OS but you do not seem to have a grasp of reality. MW has nothing to repent. What happened at Aachen is over and done with. MW went to Athens and did a fabulous job..end of story. OS you really don't have a clue do you. Good heavens OS take a reality pill or some other pill...

shade

Oct. 26, 2004, 12:55 PM

yeah I'm a lurker guys...but sometimes geesh...

khobstetter

Oct. 26, 2004, 01:05 PM

Ok Erin.......... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif Sorry!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Oct. 26, 2004, 01:07 PM

Sorry Old School, but I have to take offense to anything negative said about ANYONE who represents the USA... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

mnolen9698

Oct. 26, 2004, 01:22 PM

Back to the original topic, I have a couple questions:

1) When will the labs know the results from the B sample?

2) When will those results be published?

3) When will the FEI/Olympic committe make a decision (if the drug tests are positive)?

4) Why does it take so long to process these drug tests (especially at this level of competition)?

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 01:24 PM

Wward I'm really curious WHY? I didn't notice a great deal of compassion from anyone when Nona Garson had some problems.

Anne FS

Oct. 26, 2004, 01:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
What attracted spectators to the National Horse Show was the Galloping Grandfather Harry Deleyer who was not afraid to be vocal and make his trip more than just a trip but a performance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And guess who entered the 5-bar class at the Farmington Hunt Club show a few weeks ago? Mr. DeLeyer! It was a tough class with some really good horses and it got up to 5'1" at the end. Seeing those horses jump 5 huge verticals lined up in a row was amazing, and guess who won? Harry DeLeyer, tipping his hat to the crowd after each clear run.

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Oct. 26, 2004, 01:38 PM

Glimmerglass

Oct. 26, 2004, 01:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Wward I'm really curious WHY? I didn't notice a great deal of compassion from anyone when Nona Garson had some problems. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird, speaking for myself as I was vocal about that too, no one attacked Nona regarding the 2000 Olympics debacle. Rather that was a pure cluster from the top on down. The USET vet was wrong, as was the Coach, in saying everything was fine. Todd should've been put in for Sydney, but alas poor judgements were exercised.

This is really old stuff which doesn't need to be rehashed, but I don't recall anyone saying anything directly negative about Nona.

Luckily from that mess - and I will say that Sydney was perhaps one of our worst hours - we have rebounded through new structuring and decision making powers.

DMK

Oct. 26, 2004, 01:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
McLain I am not surprised that you don't agree with a lot of my positions because as one of the ones lucky enough to have the contacts to get superb sponsors to buy marvelous horses in essence you have been very fortunate. The beneficiaries of sponsorships rarely are in agreement. And they never see the impact of those special interests. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Food for thought...

I don't have any sponsors, don't ride anywhere near the level of, and could not possibly be further from the Olympic Elite and still put foot on the grounds of a recognized show. And yet I don't agree with a lot (most) of your positions either.

So there's a lot of room on this train. We don't just serve the people in the first class cars. There's plenty of cheap booze in the peon seats.

And Old School, as Erin (vainly) pointed out, there's a process here. McLain, whether you like him, hate him, know all about him, don't know anything about him, did legally qualify and subsequently earn a spot on the team through his and his horse's talents. If that confuses you, enrages you or just gives you cause to clean the spittle off your keyboard, I suggest you work harder at reforming the system, or at least sending them a spittle-gram voicing your concerns.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:07 PM

DMK, my buddy, since you now know that McLain is such a sport divider, may I suggest that you somehow alter your tag line to reflect this new, current knowledge? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

khobstetter

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:17 PM

DMK...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If that confuses you, enrages you or just gives you cause to clean the spittle off your keyboard, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

You are sooooooooooo wonderfully funny!!! I LOVED this one.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif OTFLMAO !!!!

DMK

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:19 PM

I honestly thought about it Laurie, but I'm sticking with the really BIG ticket items of sheer absurdity.

Now if McLain actually rises to "Icon" status along with his apparent Superpower Divisiveness, I may have to rethink my position. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ruby G. Weber

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:30 PM

OK. That was an entertaining read. All however many pages of it.

Back to the original topic. Bottom line. In spite of the principle theory put forth by one of our most outspoken members, the Olympics (and any other class at any other horse show in anyplace USA) are about winning, nothing more, nothing less.

The German's, whom we all would agree have been a top the tree for a long time, apparently couldn't get the job done without a "little help from their friends" this time around. And the good ol' US of A, and yes Old School, that includes McLain, managed to grab the silver whilst playing fair and square.

Well done Team USA!

BTW, I might also mention it is the horse who makes the rider, not the other way around, something that does not appear to be lost on McLain, judging by his posts.

And finally, Snowbird.....that was Sweet n' Low you saw jump the Wall so tall, not 'Tico.

Ruby G. Weber

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:31 PM

DMK...Me too, LMAO, that is.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:32 PM

Actually, Ma, it WAS 'Tico that originally set the record, WAY back when Tony had him. I must support Snowbird on this point.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:32 PM

McLain, check your PTs, please.

lauriep

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:37 PM

Well, here's hoping that after next Tuesday, the current one will become irrelevant, and THEN you can use McLain!

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:50 PM

I never meant to imply that only riders at that level disagreed with me. I don't think I ever said that, I am an equal opportunty "disagree" opportunity for many types and levels. I don't discriminate and no one is totally excluded.

I simply said that I could understand why McLain would disagree with me! Cheez Magee! is everything a federal case?

DMK

Oct. 26, 2004, 02:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Well, here's hoping that after next Tuesday, the current one will become irrelevant, and THEN you can use McLain! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure you know how fervently I desire That It Be So. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I never thought you meant as much, Snowbird - just wanted everyone else to know there was plenty of range of disgreement on those issues!

hunterjumper1002

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anne FS:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
What attracted spectators to the National Horse Show was the Galloping Grandfather Harry Deleyer who was not afraid to be vocal and make his trip more than just a trip but a performance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And guess who entered the 5-bar class at the Farmington Hunt Club show a few weeks ago? Mr. DeLeyer! It was a tough class with some really good horses and it got up to 5'1" at the end. Seeing those horses jump 5 huge verticals lined up in a row was amazing, and guess who won? Harry DeLeyer, tipping his hat to the crowd after each clear run. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont exactly know what this is about. But the DeLeyers are very nice people. And have awesome horses. Having known them. I hope there is nothing bad being said about them, as they work really hard at the sport.

Snowbird

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:24 PM

I don't think so! I know that I revere Harry DeLeyer and have nothing but delightful thoughts for him and his family.

I don't know anyone who doesn't respect their horsemanship and good sportsmanship. Not to worry.

LimoWrek

Oct. 26, 2004, 07:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Old School:
I don’t fully blame the riders. It is the responsibility of managing leadership to set a fair playing field. I was appalled at the AHSA’s response in the 1980’s to the greatest failure of trust possible in their realm—killing healthy horses for insurance money. I don’t think such sins can be swept under the rug without consequence, as was apparently hoped.

I was a coach for ten years, and I loved it in spite of the grind. The reason I left was because of the corruption. It took a while, but I finally saw the handwriting and didn’t like it. Some stayed and played. Now we are going to nail them up?

I don’t believe it is only the riders or trainers. Unlike the sport’s “leadership” of my early days, they are doing their job. Many customers simply want to win and will look at you with a cheerful mix of denial and deference as long as life is running smoothly. Life running smoothly usually means winning, and sadly, drugs can improve the success rate. The problem is that, in a free market, the trainers who use drugs, overall, will do better than those who don’t. Customers want to win, drugs improve the success rate, horses and everything around them is expensive: the math is simple. In an un-policed industry, the drug-using approach takes over.

This has happened now. It is unfair to make Cian O’Connor the scapegoat for the industry’s failure. The leadership entrusted with managing the sport has too often “looked the other way.” By allowing the sport to remain to bob unprotected in the free market and not vehemently enforcing standards, we have come to a place where drug use is rampant. Blaming Cian or Ludger is easy, but incomplete.

America is no longer a dominant powerhouse in equestrian sport, and this year was our first return to the top since … well, since the horse-killing scandals. (!) But the world looks to the success of America and wants to emulate it. This modeling goes beyond who is winning in a given year.

It is my belief that if we had the right leadership—and we may have it now—when the horse killing scandals erupted those involved would have been publicly hauled up and thrown well and truly out, even if it uprooted half the sport. Then equestrian sport could have renewed its public image and emerged stronger, cleaner, a true holder in trust of civilization’s most sacred partnership.

But we didn’t do that. We never cleaned house. The rank and file horse people of that time never demanded it. The criminals scuttled away, mostly, except for the few that got caught underfoot. It was deemed by some of our leadership that they, and their pocketbooks and situations, were more important than preserving the integrity of horsemanship in the public’s eye. Our predecessors killed the golden goose. The AHSA is dead, our spectator shows have dwindled … this was the price of our corruption.

Such crimes demand honest and public repentance. The sport didn’t do that, so we are seeing the fruition. Reading that McLain Ward was banned for horse abuse at Aachen made me remember the saying ‘the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.’ Are we to pretend otherwise … are we expected to be fools?

Fundamentally, it is an issue of respect. Had McLain never been convicted of infraction he could compete with honor, but given his own violations and considering his connections, no! He isn’t our best. It is a privilege to ride for the flag, not a right or a backroom deal. McLain Ward had unsportsmanlike conduct in his career and a dark family history. This is not basketball or pro wrestling. Horsemanship is a tradition, one that has lifted mankind from the caves. There are other top riders of good character to place on our team—what message did this choice send to our young riders? Cheat, it will be okay later? The ends justify the means?

That our sport has such shade in its reasoning to select such a man is the real cause behind the doping scandals. The insult is real to me. Our sport seems to be saying not only will we let them kill horses, we’ll put them on the Olympic team! Unbe-lievable. People have gotten the wrong impression of equestrian sport because they had the right idea about its leadership.

There can be a happier ending. This is a tremendous time of opportunity for equestrian sport. The old criminals never repented, but the world turns and change is in the air. Young leadership is taking charge and needs the community’s support. It has been shown painfully that drugs and the wrong-doers have to be controlled, because the cost of not doing so may be the sport itself. The foxhunters have shown us that public image is important.

It is not un-American to question ourselves. To say we have made mistakes is the first step to getting it right. If we in this country determine that criminality has no place in this sport that trains our youth, the rest of the world will have to follow — what can they say? Can we ignore the evil in our midst and pretend ourselves into integrity? Judging from the results, apparently not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, did anyone read that whole thing? Did you learn in high school to, like, make it short and to the point?

You are a moron. I am not going to validate that statement with facts, because they are evident enough in this thread (and every other post you have ever made).

BTW- I think you are an alter ego. I am an expert at finding out alter egos.... Your name is too generic. IF you aren't an alter ego, then you are a really big moron.

Cheers, darling.

Cindeye'sEvilTwin

Oct. 26, 2004, 11:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Midge:
Cindeye, when I was thinking of shownames, Pastor Inqvist was a contender. Guess what I settled on? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cindeye is not willing to post on this thread anymore. I thought I would answer this question for her. Let me guess...Guy Noir?

Weatherford

Oct. 27, 2004, 03:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by stan the man:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Mclain - great work in the Olympics - could you capitalize your "Is" though? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That would be _I's_. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, there is some question about that - read the book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" .... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(I am about 7 pages behind in reading this thread - my apologies!)

Weatherford

Oct. 27, 2004, 03:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jair:
Two thoughts this morning over my Starbucks:

+ The Bettina Hoy incident is definitely turning into somesort of _Equestrian Intrigue_. I was never one to believe the conspiracy theory about the Germans + Warmbloods, but you know, as soon as I saw the results of the X-country (where the Germans typcially did not do well) I started to wonder... it was a little... shall we say...coincidental that the German Team in the first Olympic short format 3-Day were ahead because of their dressage and showjumping combined with a reduced dimension x-country and new rule that put 5 riders on a team instead of 4. And then add on the possible doping with Benadryl as a calming agent instead of medical... way too bizzare.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, first, Ringwood Cockatoo is an IRISH HORSE - mostly (if not all) THOROUGHBRED!!!

Second, a friend of mine found and started this horse and says, without a doubt, he has a LOVELY temperment, and does NOT need sedatives at any time.

Last, COckatoo was WINNING the European Championships til rider error ruined his go... and MANY other three days, too. Always rider error - and most of the Irish eventers have noticed. The horse deserved Gold - and probably would have won in the long format, too. The rider (no offense to Bettina, who from all reports is an excellent horsewoman, trainer, and genuine person) has competition nerves problems or something...

Now back to the subject at hand.... (I need to catch up in the reading....)