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JollyBadger
Feb. 13, 2010, 12:33 PM
This is just a rant. . .wasn't sure whether to post it here or in the Off-Course. . .

At the Walking Horse sale at Tattersall's in Lexington, KY last weekend, I picked up a free copy of one of the TWH publications. There was an article about the TWHBEA's first executive committee meeting of 2010, and I found a comment from Performance Horse Vice President, Ty Irby, quite interesting.

The article stated that Ty Irby "emphasized that horse show development is critical, especially outside of Middle Tennessee." The direct quote from him was "we are selling to each other because there is no market for the breed outside of Tennessee."

No market for the breed, Mr. Irby? Really?

Granted, the economy is in a slump which means many people simply are not buying horses. That much was obvious at the sale. There were some very nice, sound, beautiful, naturally-gaited horses going for under $1000.

But his comment about there being no market for the breed just shows how serious the problem of the TWHBEA's collective rectal-cranial impaction really is.

They've been focusing so much on shows - especially giving the spotlight to the padded/"performance" classes - that they seem completely oblivious to the fact that most of the TWH owners outside of Middle Tennessee want nothing to do with the Big Lick Freak Show.

There absolutely IS a market for the Tennessee Walking Horse outside of Tennessee. It's just that the demand is for naturally-gaited, flat-shod horses for trail and recreational riding. The average TWH owners have no use for high-stepping padded horses that need to stop and "blow out" frequently and can't make sudden turns because they will trip over all the junk attached to their hooves.:no:

Membership is dropping. A lot. In the past four years, TWHBEA memberships have gone from 18,457 to 10,942. It just baffles me that the leadership at TWHBEA seems so bent on continuing to support and promote the "Performance Horse" that it will sacrifice all else and run the whole organization into the ground.:confused:

tkhawk
Feb. 13, 2010, 12:59 PM
Very interesting view from the top. Most breed associations go out of their way to promote their breed as the one that can fit all needs. I would think there is a huge market for soft gaited horses among people getting older and just looking something fun and easy.

When I get around to getting another horse, I wan't a soft gaited horse myself. So far I am just looking(window shopping is so good-no boarding bills etc.!!) . But I like Peruvians as I have exposure to them and the Mangalarga seem good-at least theoretically. Don't have too much exposure. But the first thing you think of TWH is the big lick image and it scares you off. They should encourage different classes and different aspects. I mean you have halter Arabs with all their exotic stuff and then your endurance arabs and you can show them too-one does not have to negate the other. Why shoot yourself in the foot by focusing only on the showy type horses??

hctjudge
Feb. 13, 2010, 01:11 PM
I have a wonderful 7yr old TWH mare that has mental "issues"
from being started at a show barn. A trainer friend told me that
she acts like a horse that was beaten. Breaks my heart.

I bought her as a 5 yr old and have been trying to gain her
trust ever since. We are making progress, I'm happy to report.

I paid my dues to the TWHBEA when I transferred her papers,
but I am not paying anymore because I detest those magazines they bless you with. The pictures make me sick.

This mare has become a wonderful, bold, smooth, exceptional
trail horse, which is what I bought her to be. Her gait is natural and she seems to be able to do it endlessly.

Yep, the market is possibly best for the ones lucky enough
to be treated like horses.

jazzrider
Feb. 13, 2010, 01:36 PM
They've been focusing so much on shows - especially giving the spotlight to the padded/"performance" classes - that they seem completely oblivious to the fact that most of the TWH owners outside of Middle Tennessee want nothing to do with the Big Lick Freak Show.

You know, as an owner of a pleasure TWH and SSH I'm ok with them being oblivious to us. I will not ever, in any way, support an organization that has big lick folks in it -- or leadership that justifies the history of it in any way. We've not officially transferred either of their papers to our name because I didn't want to give them money. He thinks there's not market for TWHs? Great. Stop breeding and training. Please.

RackOn
Feb. 13, 2010, 02:03 PM
The TWH breed association is made up of good 'ol boys intent on preserving the "big lick" horse. They will never see that soring and the resulting mutant gaits are disgusting.

I am glad to see the membership of the TWH associaton drop, while membership in associations like FOSH hopefully increase. I also dropped my TWH membership, do not subscribe to their publications, will not attend a sanctioned show, and in no way will I ever support that big lick mentality.

Maybe the word is finally getting out. Not that many years ago I attended the Concert for Champions at the American Royal. It is an annual multi breed demonstration set to the music of a live symphony orchestra. Well what did I see but a segment with two big lick horses. I booed.

Afterwards I wrote to the organization that put on the show and said I will never again pay to attend this event. Haven't been back since.

JollyBadger
Feb. 13, 2010, 03:26 PM
I also had a membership with TWHBEA after purchasing my gelding back in 2001, but didn't bother to renew it. Most of the other people I know who once had memberships are not at all interested in the padded show horse and also have not bothered to renew.

IMO, as long as that organization continues to support and promote the Big Lick, they are supporting and promoting everything that goes along to create that image. I think that's part of the reason why the TWHBEA is not the organization chosen to showcase the breed at the WEG later this year, and instead the NWHA will be there to represent.

The article I quoted from in the OP really kind of floored me and left me shaking my head. After all of the scandal and negative attention that has surrounded the breed in recent years, the TWHBEA still can't seem to grasp the idea that most of the horse world outside of Middle Tennessee looks at The Big Lick with disgust. :sigh:

katarine
Feb. 14, 2010, 12:22 PM
I'm in Alabama.

I can't find yet another soul in the state who wants to show their TWH on NWHA approved dressage tests. I think they have to exist, surely they do?

As for the NWHA...they won't acknowledge USDF judges at shows willing to add NWHA tests to their roster, so those can't be affiliated shows. They have to be NWHA judges...who aren't USDF recognized judges. Follow that circular logic and tell me how to get the breed some recognition?

I can't find anyone else in central AL interested in taking lessons with a fab dressage trainer who will come to YOU and teach you on YOUR own TWH.

I'm not 4 hours from Shelbyville and there's no interest here in 'gaited dressage'. Nada.


Maybe those old boys are asshats, but I can't find a real footing out here in the real world for good, natural, sound TWHs in competition. I'd have to travel at least one full state away to compete in NWHA, and FOSH? Forget it, not a hint of it here. I can't up and go to Missouri for a weekend, or KY. There's not a darn thing I can do with this horse to earn him some recognition. It's frustrating.

Cherry
Feb. 14, 2010, 12:52 PM
You should have posted this in "Off Course" with a link on this board to the thread, IMO. Some of us just frequent "Horse Care" and "Off Course" because we have been shouted down in some of the other sections of COTH, so we just don't visit to the other sections as a rule.... :uhoh: If the thread hadn't popped up on the main board I would have missed it, but I do have an opinion.... :lol:


The direct quote from him was "we are selling to each other because there is no market for the breed outside of Tennessee.":eek: ! That's the funniest thing I've read since that TB guy said of Northern Dancer (as a yearling), "Who wants to buy a midget?"!!! :lol: Who indeed?

Anyway, I love Walking Horses but abhor what is done to obtain the big lick. I just don't get it, why you would want to put a horse through that if you really love the breed? :rolleyes:

That said, if the TWHBEA would fold up tomorrow would anyone who truly cares about the breed miss it? Maybe their time has come since they can't figure out for themselves that interest in the big lick is dwindling???? I say, "Let 'em fall!". Someone else can pick up the pieces and maybe Walking Horses will finally get the love and respect that they deserve!

I'm sure Mr. Dement has been spinning in his grave lo these many years.... :cry:

Or maybe Mr. Irby needs to be on the receiving end of a deluge of letters explaining to him why people have dropped their memberships! Maybe it would help, maybe not but you have to admit that the power of COTH has done many good things in the past.... :yes: ;) :winkgrin:

Halcyon Days
Feb. 14, 2010, 12:55 PM
I dropped my TWHBEA membership also, HATED getting the Voice with all the freaked out, stressed padded horses, I did do the saddle log and got the 1000 hour award--a chintzy rain jacket, but final straw for me was when they dropped the endurance program. SO MANY walkers are out there racking up miles and some pretty impressive careers, what better way to 'prove' the breed's toughness, saneness, soundness and usefullness as a recreational horse? They're completely blind to 95% of their potential members interests, who are obviously spending their $$ elsewhere now

Minerva Louise
Feb. 14, 2010, 01:00 PM
All I can say is - my first experience with Walkers was when I went to a week long camp. The people that owned the camp were also big into Big Lick Walkers. They gave all the kids that went through the horse program at their camp (not walkers, just camp plug horses) anyway- we all got a booklet about conformation and riding and all kinds of things that happened to include lots of full page photos of their fancy big lick walkers. I remember looking at one of the pictures in particular and wondering what was wrong with that horse's odd scaley pasterns and fetlocks....:eek: This was before soring was frowned upon, apparently. And those odd clunky chain bracelets... And horrible pad shoes.

Anyway, my thought looking at those pictures was, (channeling Lucille Ball) "Eeeeeewwwww......" I was not impressed. For a long time, that was what I thought all walkers looked like, did, and how they were ridden. And I did not want one in the least!

Trouble is, Big Lick is where the Big Money is.

Tamara in TN
Feb. 14, 2010, 01:02 PM
But I like Peruvians as I have exposure to them and the Mangalarga seem good-at least theoretically. Don't have too much exposure.??

come to TN...I'll score you a ride on about 6 of them:)

Tamara in TN

chemteach
Feb. 14, 2010, 03:05 PM
My neighbor has a TWH in his thirties. He has had the horse since he was two years old and a big lick horse. My neighbor had him regularly shod and made him into a wonderful trail horse. There is life after big lick.

Minerva Louise
Feb. 14, 2010, 03:10 PM
There is life after big lick.

I don't think anyone is denying this. They just don't see why they have to pay to support an organization that seems to ONLY support big lick, and ignores everyone else.

chemteach
Feb. 14, 2010, 03:32 PM
I don't blame them.

Guilherme
Feb. 14, 2010, 05:08 PM
Tamara often comments that there's nothing wrong with the TWHBEA that about 20 funerals in Middle TN would not cure. She’s not being bloodthirsty; she’s acknowledging the political reality of the Walking Horse world. She's right on that score; the TWHBEA is deeply beholden to a relative handful of people and these people are completely committed to the defense of the Big Lick (a/k/a the Padded) horse. They have been so since the middle '50s. To back off that commitment now would mean eating crow by the bale.

The market for non-padded Walkers has always been negatively affected by the TWHBEA's commitment. The biggest portion of breeders in the U.S. are in Middle TN and padded horse prospects bring the biggest money. Even when the equine market was healthy a good Walker (but not good for padding) could be had for $1500, more less, all day long. I know, personally, at least two CA Walker barns that used to come to Middle TN with semis and buy youngsters for $600-$800 each to go back to CA where they sold for $4000-$6000. We paid a premium for our first Walker in MD, but then found out that we seriously overpaid; didn't do that with our second (or any of the dozen or more subsequent Walkers we bought). Today a good Walker can be had for well under $1000 just about anywhere. And "free to a good home" is not uncommon.

Note that the commitment we are dealing with is less to pads and chains than it is to the way of going, itself. The incidence of soring (and other abusive practices) may well be more widespread in the Plantation and Light Shod divisions, where people seek Big Lick movement but without the mechanical aids.

I noted the decline in numbers for TWHBEA membership. I guess when you’re dealing with stock under $1000 spending any money on registration is uneconomical.

Addressing the Big Lick breeding practices of the last 55 years would need it’s own thread.

Is there life after the Big Lick? It depends. If the horse hasn’t been “touched” too hard, then maybe it has a chance at a second career. But it’s had the “full treatment” it will have multiple lameness’s and constant movement issues. I’ve owned one like this and observed countless others.

G.

elysian*fields*farm
Feb. 14, 2010, 08:58 PM
There was an article about the TWHBEA's first executive committee meeting of 2010, and I found a comment from Performance Horse Vice President, Ty Irby, quite interesting.

The article stated that Ty Irby "emphasized that horse show development is critical, especially outside of Middle Tennessee." The direct quote from him was "we are selling to each other because there is no market for the breed outside of Tennessee."


No surprise to me that Mr. Irby would think this way. He is a dyed -in-the wool "Big Lick" oh, excuse me - "performance" horse trainer, and has been for about 30 years-- make that his entire career- that I know of.

When my late husband and I began showing flatshod on the "Heart 'o Dixie" circult, there was only one class for flat-shod horses -- it was called "Two Gait-Favorite Gait"- and was open to ANY gaited horse-- even unregistered ones. If I remember correctly, Mr. Irby was one of the trainers who liked it that way just fine.-- All his clients showed the unnatural horses with the pads and/or chains -- and he wanted to keep as many classes for those horses as possible.

I am not surprised that he is now up in the "higher" ranks as the VP for "performance" horses, and he still hasn't learned anything. It's becuse of people with an attitude like his that we ( and thousands lik use) over the years have quit showing in the TWHBEA and NSHRC sanctioned shows and went to all-breed shows and finally to historical reenactments, parades and trail rides.

It is a shame that the "big Lick" people still have a death grip on the walking horse shows down South, and that most FOSH and NWHA sponsored shows are all in the midwest, northeast and Kentucky.

But I couldn't even show any of my walkers today if I wanted to, because none of them have current registration papers-- I, too, quit paying to help finance what I consider to be a morally corrupt breed organization that continues to turn a blind eye to cruel, unnatural and just plain crooked training tricks that produce an obscenely fake gait in what has to be one of the most ill-used breeds of horses in this country.

I'm glad when I read that the USDA is coming down on them harder at inspections. I laugh when I think how they couldn't even crown a WGC "performance" hose a few years ago because most of the contenders were not sound enough to get past inspection. I am gleeful when I hear that there isn't a market for those pacey-going freaky poor examples of walkers those trainers, and the rest of their supporters try to foist off on unsuspecting newbies. I'm glad Mr. Irby is so worried, but disgusted that he, and many others in that breed association, are still "drinking the kool aide" while their horses continue to suffer abuse so they can look so freaky stupid in the show ring.

If they are having to "just sell horses among themelves"," this may mean that people are finally getting wise to the "game" the good ole boys from middle Tennessee and their hangers-on have been running since the late 1950s. And this makes me very happy, and gives me hope for the future of the Walking Horse breed :D:D:D

Proud owner of four naturally gaited Walking Horses or Plantation Horses -- none of them currently TWHBEA registered

Malda
Feb. 14, 2010, 10:32 PM
Interesting video showing the evolution of the padded horse. The first three have natural, square gaits. After that, you can see the horses becoming pacey as they start to step higher and squat down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbZH3IbosI8

Hope the link works.

Erin

Tamara in TN
Feb. 14, 2010, 10:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbZH3IbosI8

Hope the link works.

Erin

everyone wanted to move like Talk of the Town..hell, he won three times,who don't like winning...? only liars would say they did'nt;)

but you wanna hear something crazy? he had no descendants so all the others had their gaits "adjusted" to match his...the tidy clean gaits of the first few decades were erased in that short three year span of time....

and for the sake of clarity in a previous post I say 20 "well attended funerals":)

Tamara in TN

foggybok
Feb. 14, 2010, 11:50 PM
When I bought my first Walker, I tranfered the papers and paid the ridiculous price to belong to TWHBEA for a year. My DH looked at the magazine that showed up and said "What the H#%$ is that?" Then I showed him the videos.....:eek:

The next TWH I bought, I have not even registered because I don't want to give them my money. They are overpriced to start, and even at a reasonable price, I don't want to support them.

I LOVE the TWH and will most likely own many more....wish there was a way to support the breed without supporting TWHBEA.

elysian*fields*farm
Feb. 15, 2010, 01:02 AM
foggy bok said
I LOVE the TWH and will most likely own many more....wish there was a way to support the breed without supporting TWHBEA.

I couldn't agree more--That is the thing that is needed-- but so far no one has succeeded in doing that. There have been various efforts in the past, but so far only the National Walking Horse Association and FOSH seem to be having any success. And the NWHA's success is blunted (IMHO) by their allowing the cross registry of horses in both their registery and the TWHBEA. But NWHA did gain some success in the matter of who actually "owns" a horse's pedigree. The TWHBEA did try to stop them from registering horses that already had TWHBEA registration papers -- and failed.

There have even been several attempts to "reform" the TWBEA from within that involved lots of nasty counter- tactics and suits and counter suits as well as proxy fights at the annual meetings. It is all in the books about the history of the breed by Greene and Womack.

One group from the 1970s that tried to clean up the industry was the Walking Horse Owners Association. It never did try to start a registry. It did try to affiliate and sanction shows. It even started its own BIG show to compete with the Celebration-- the International. It was formed at first to combat soring and cheating, but soon it came to be controlled by the same trainers-breeders-judges that were part of what WHOA had been formed to combat-- and WHOA stopped speaking out about the soring and started defending it or just not talking about it like it didn't exist.

There have been several attempts to form various registeries throughout the years, many by people who opposed all the gimmicks of the big lick people. Some of these are The Plantation Horse Registry of America, The American Plantation Horse Registery, and even the Racking Horse Association of America. There are a few more, but none had the success of the Racking Association or the National Walking Horse Association have had.

There have been two main methods as far as I can see that are used by the "TWH show mafia" to "hush" those groups who speak out about soring-- one is to join and "take over" the new group as was done with WHOA-- the other is to ignore and shun those who oppose soring and thus minimize their impact in the heart of TWH territory and at the all-important Celebration-- examples of groups this method has been used against are PWHAT and FOSH.

Right now these groups are coming up against what is one of the biggest hurdles-- getting enough shows to affiliate with them instead of the TWHBEA-sponsored show sanctioning group -- I don't even know what that one is called any more, but it used to be the NHSRC or NSHRC.

Unfortunately the "money people" are all in bed with the show people because that is where the money is to be made-- and money people like to keep making money. I have never heard of a trail rider paying say $10,000 to get a trail horse-- but lots of people will pay that and more for a show horse.

I guess the worse thing that probably happened to the walking horse was the show circuit.

What many people don't realize is that the "type" of horse-- one that would do a running walk-- was around waaay before the boys from middle Tennessee got control with their registry in the mid-1930s. Many of these horses had a Morgan background or a Standardbred background, or a combination. They were bred throughout the states of the old Confederacy and Kentucky -- a horse breeding state of long standing. These places were mainly agricultural states before and after the War.

According to Greene and/or Womack-- -- the first horse recognized as doing what has become called the running walk was a horse named Bald Stockings-- and he was around in the 1830s -- 100 years before the TWHBEA was even formed.

But after the Tennessee Walking Horse "mafia" got control of these horses by founding a registry and sponsoring their own major show for the breed-- the Celebration-- they and a few like-minded big money people --have decided what was to be acceptable and sought after because of the nexus of trainers-breeders-judges-TWHBEA officers and board and Celebration board members.

Those of us who value the old-time traditional walking horses can only hope that finally the coalition formed by show interests and the TWHBEA is imploding because there has finally been enough publicity (made possible in large part by the Internet) and USDA pressure that new people are not being easily recruited into the big lick ranks as in the past.

If they can't sell their freaky fake pacy-going inflated price horses to enough people-- then they will not be able to maintain control as they have in the past.

Sorry I went on for so long. But I have ridden and owned walkers since the 1950s, and I really would like to see this breed delivered from the chains and pads before I die.:)

Simbalism
Feb. 15, 2010, 01:19 AM
Quite a few of my friends in riding club have walkers or spotted saddle horses. My firends do everything from trail riding to team penning and some low jumping/foxhunting.

Malda
Feb. 15, 2010, 10:04 AM
I follow several gaited message boards and I'm surprised how many non-show riders are pro-big lick, as long as soring isn't involved. Nothing is going to change until everyone understands that the big lick itself is bad, even without soring.

And just when you thought it couldn't get worse, here's the current trend in the canter (if you can call it that). I've seen other videos, so this isn't the only horse doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWyH3uL9LE&feature=related

Erin






foggy bok said

Sorry I went on for so long. But I have ridden and owned walkers since the 1950s, and I really would like to see this breed delivered from the chains and pads before I die.:)

elysian*fields*farm
Feb. 15, 2010, 02:53 PM
I follow several gaited message boards and I'm surprised how many non-show riders are pro-big lick, as long as soring isn't involved. Nothing is going to change until everyone understands that the big lick itself is bad, even without soring.

And just when you thought it couldn't get worse, here's the current trend in the canter (if you can call it that). I've seen other videos, so this isn't the only horse doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWyH...eature=related


Wow!!!! That is just pathetic and downright awful-- I noticed that many of the people who left comments on uTube didn't seem to even be able to identify the gait as a canter.-- If that is what it was-- An attempt at a canter????

And I guess the judges are placing that freaky-gaited horse over the others, so now that will make their imitate this horse. Where is the USDA, HSUS and even PETA when you need them. Yes, that's right, I would like to sic PETA on them-- that is how awful this situation is IMHO. One thing about PETA-- when they get involved, the news media flocks to the situation

Maybe they would get a bunch of horses, dip their feet and legs in fake blood and ride around the show grounds on the horses nude except for placards reading "Pads and chains cripple and maim" For added effect, they could go buy a walker with scaring that is lame out of a kill auction and groom and braid him up like he was going to the show- and paint on his sides- "Former show horse-- Slaughter lot rescue"

I really think it will take things like this to get enough people OUTSIDE the breed stirred up enough for them to maybe change. The pleasure people inside the breed would never risk doing this because they STILL need the TWHBEA to register their horses.

rmh_rider
Feb. 17, 2010, 08:39 PM
When I was looking for a gaited horse, I never for one moment thought "Oh, TWH, doink, of course". Nope. I live no more than 30-45 minutes from Shelbyville, TN

I will NOT support any breed in any way which supports WHAT they do, and allow with regards to their horrible cruelty to a wonderful animal. The association turns a blind eye to the terrible things they do to this breed, just for a "big lick". The pads, the soreing, (eyes rolling), why is that legal? they are fruitbats!

People "vote" with their dollars with regards to things they purchase. I made a choice NOT to vote for the TWH due to the above reasons, and some others. Seen all of that terrible stuff more than I would like to remember. It is a shame.

And to think PETA was picking on the AKC last night. Psst PETA!! go check out the TWH show business and barns they train them in. I think horses live alot longer than chickens do. Go get them PETA.

I bought a Rocky Mt.

JollyBadger
Feb. 18, 2010, 09:51 AM
I follow several gaited message boards and I'm surprised how many non-show riders are pro-big lick, as long as soring isn't involved. Nothing is going to change until everyone understands that the big lick itself is bad, even without soring.



That's what really gets me - the amount of people who don't show but still think the Performance TWH is the least bit attractive. That "canter," if you can even call it a canter, is one of the most bizarre and inefficient ways I've ever seen a horse move.

chancy deal
Feb. 19, 2010, 07:48 AM
I bought my handsome "big lick" after he had been big licking it around the show ring for 10 years. I bought him from a show barn to save him from that life. I've always considered him my rescue horse. :) (And Ive never given the TWHBEA a dime. He's a gelding & I dont care whose name is on his paper)
Now he's a mountain pony and he loves it.
I'm all for buying TWH's. To RESCUE them.

Patty Stiller
Feb. 19, 2010, 12:14 PM
I bought my first TWH last fall. He is a sweet lovable, willing boy destined to be my companion and trail horse.
I too started to receive the association magazine with my first year membership after I transfered his papers. I was disappointed and totally disgusted at the ratio of pages devoted to the big lick horse abuse compared to the very few pages showing the TWH doing what these horses are so good at....being great 'all around' horses flat shod or barefoot .
I had hoped that particular issue of the magazine was a fluke and that the association would give the non big lick disciplines more space in future issues. But nope. That hasn't happened.
So I too will not be renewing my membership. I refuse to support an association that continues to promote big lick abusive good ole boy freak shows. I hope someone from the TWHBEA is reading this. In this day and age of humane awareness as well as the economy, if they want to further their association and the breed they need to concentrate the majority of their promotion to disciplines other than the show ring. Their image has been tarnished for a long time and as far as I can see from the magazine, they are not doing much to fix it. I was just discussing this issue the other day after my latest magazine arrived and I recommend that eveyone concerned about this write the association and express these views to them directly.

unicorndreams21
Feb. 21, 2010, 12:46 AM
I bought my first TWH last fall. He is a sweet lovable, willing boy destined to be my companion and trail horse.
I too started to receive the association magazine with my first year membership after I transfered his papers. I was disappointed and totally disgusted at the ratio of pages devoted to the big lick horse abuse compared to the very few pages showing the TWH doing what these horses are so good at....being great 'all around' horses flat shod or barefoot .
I had hoped that particular issue of the magazine was a fluke and that the association would give the non big lick disciplines more space in future issues. But nope. That hasn't happened.
So I too will not be renewing my membership. I refuse to support an association that continues to promote big lick abusive good ole boy freak shows. I hope someone from the TWHBEA is reading this. In this day and age of humane awareness as well as the economy, if they want to further their association and the breed they need to concentrate the majority of their promotion to disciplines other than the show ring. Their image has been tarnished for a long time and as far as I can see from the magazine, they are not doing much to fix it. I was just discussing this issue the other day after my latest magazine arrived and I recommend that eveyone concerned about this write the association and express these views to them directly.

^this^ agree!!:yes:
I just purchased my first TWH last May... He too is a gentle, sweet, and brave boy. I plan to make him my main trail companion (he's smart & sensible) once I get more miles and exposure (trail) on him. I transferred registration/ownership and received my first "Voice of the TWH".. at first, I was really excited!:winkgrin: and then I opened it and started reading:eek: I was appalled!!! And genuinely, cannot understand the "big lick" attraction!:confused: I thought perhaps that was just the one issue... (haven't received a second yet), then, I received the "Sires Edition," that started out good.. showing some of the foundation sires... then :no: oh no!!! More big lick horses! I was pleased to see a few(couple) of sires that advertised trail and barefoot, but the majority... yeeegawddss!!! Will not be renewing my membership next year! Now if I can just figure out how to get my $65 overpayment back!!:(

pj
Feb. 21, 2010, 09:56 AM
I have to say it does me good to read these posts that are so against big lick and so far not one poster coming in and claiming that you all are attacking the Wh breed themselves or that you all just don't understand and it's not nearly as bad as you think. That usually happens when these threads pop up.
I've never figured out how some big lick supporters see being against soring, stacks, etc. is attacking the horse not the supporters but some do. I know..doesn't make sense.

There was outrage fifty years ago from the public and other horse owners about big lick and the horrid way the wh were treated and I really thought it was on it's way out then but...still it's here.

I really feel that not only is the treatment the horses receive a crime but a sin, too and wish that someway it could be completely stopped once and for all but am beginning to believe that it will never happen. No animal deserves to live like the big lick horses do.

JollyBadger
Feb. 21, 2010, 01:36 PM
I have to say it does me good to read these posts that are so against big lick and so far not one poster coming in and claiming that you all are attacking the Wh breed themselves or that you all just don't understand and it's not nearly as bad as you think. That usually happens when these threads pop up.


Agreed!^^

It irks me when Big Lick supporters automatically think that disliking the "performance horse" means disliking the entire breed.

The ironic thing is that the Big Lick TWH is about the farthest thing from being a good representative of what the breed truly is. :no:

angie j
Feb. 22, 2010, 11:10 AM
When I was looking for a gaited horse, I never for one moment thought "Oh, TWH, doink, of course". Nope. I live no more than 30-45 minutes from Shelbyville, TN

I will NOT support any breed in any way which supports WHAT they do,.

There's a fine line here. NOT buying a Walker does injustice to the breed. You victimize the victim.

Rather, why not buy from a person dedicated to breeding the 'correct' Walker. I purchased mine from Ohio (Ontario Canada) and will breed her this year, probably to PaPa's Royal Delight. I would have chosen Champaign Watchout just out of principle but He's too tall.

Walkers are 'wonderful, fine tempered companions with a smooth ride. Don't punish them for the sins of their handlers.

P.S. I wish "I" could have been at Tattersals this year :( I have a Saddlebred from there too...... but 'THAT'S' another story ;)

Angie J

twofatponies
Feb. 22, 2010, 11:24 AM
I've ridden a couple of TWH that were pleasure/trail horses and they were wonderful. I'd consider buying one but they are hard to find in New England and buying a horse from another region entails much travel and shipping and so on, so it's not so likely I'd consider a TWH, but only for that reason!

Tamara in TN
Feb. 22, 2010, 11:30 AM
Walkers are 'wonderful, fine tempered companions with a smooth ride. Don't punish them for the sins of their handlers.



and don't reward the "marginal" animals for the "heroics" of theirs, either

Tamara in TN

Patty Stiller
Feb. 22, 2010, 11:57 AM
This is ironic...the day after I posted my rant, I received an E-news letter from the association promoting versatility classes primarily an upcoming reining competition.:D .....so I will calm down now and say GOOD FOR THEM. When we all write the association voicing our opinions about 'big lick' , (get your pens out today and do that) be sure to temper it with it some praise for also promoting versatility and ask for more of that . Maybe we can catch more flies with sugar than with just poison.

angie j
Feb. 22, 2010, 05:41 PM
and don't reward the "marginal" animals for the "heroics" of theirs, either

Tamara in TN

Care to elaorate? Is there an underlying 'fault' that would casue you to come to that conclusion?

retento
Feb. 22, 2010, 07:38 PM
I'm in Alabama.

I can't find yet another soul in the state who wants to show their TWH on NWHA approved dressage tests. I think they have to exist, surely they do?

As for the NWHA...they won't acknowledge USDF judges at shows willing to add NWHA tests to their roster, so those can't be affiliated shows. They have to be NWHA judges...who aren't USDF recognized judges. Follow that circular logic and tell me how to get the breed some recognition?

I can't find anyone else in central AL interested in taking lessons with a fab dressage trainer who will come to YOU and teach you on YOUR own TWH.

I'm not 4 hours from Shelbyville and there's no interest here in 'gaited dressage'. Nada.


Maybe those old boys are asshats, but I can't find a real footing out here in the real world for good, natural, sound TWHs in competition. I'd have to travel at least one full state away to compete in NWHA, and FOSH? Forget it, not a hint of it here. I can't up and go to Missouri for a weekend, or KY. There's not a darn thing I can do with this horse to earn him some recognition. It's frustrating.



Actually, NWHA has a program called the Lifetime Superior Achievment Program that allows you to earn points in Versatility, Model, English Pleasure and Western Pleasure. You keep up with the points yourself and can earn points in any show that has a licensed judge. FMI: http://www.nwha.com/lifetime.html

Tamara in TN
Feb. 22, 2010, 07:47 PM
Care to elaborate? Is there an underlying 'fault' that would cause you to come to that conclusion?

all animals have flaws...

one should not use hero worship of the owners/handlers to cover them up...

Tamara in TN

angie j
Feb. 22, 2010, 09:07 PM
all animals have flaws...

one should not use hero worship of the owners/handlers to cover them up...

Tamara in TN

So... all 'have' flaws.... but choosing between these flaws, one should not take into consideration supporting a breeder that shares/ supports the same ethical principals or it is is considered 'worship'? LOL!!!

Personaly, I support and applaud the stand taken by Watchouts owners. "If" he suited my breeding needs I would gladly help financialy support his efforts, furthering the normalizaton of showing off TWH's in the fashion they were bred to perform, by breeding to him.

On the other hand I wouldn't breed to a WGC big lick horse if you offered it for free.

Tamara in TN
Feb. 22, 2010, 09:31 PM
[QUOTE=angie j;4704755]So... all 'have' flaws.... but choosing between these flaws, one should not take into consideration supporting a breeder that shares/ supports the same ethical principals or it is is considered 'worship'? LOL!!!

make quite sure you have principles in common first,before you break out your check book,as you would with any political statement


Personally, I support and applaud the stand taken by Watchouts owners. "If" he suited my breeding needs I would gladly help financially support his efforts, furthering the normalization of showing off TWH's in the fashion they were bred to perform, by breeding to him.


were you there ? when it happened ? then you do recall what was said to the media after the class was over by the "connections" ? right?

and do you consider that movement he exhibits the "epitome" of breeding walking horses? really ??

how you could consider that animal on those merits is beyond the scope of rational thought....

Tamara in TN

TWHrider
Feb. 22, 2010, 10:37 PM
. But I like Peruvians as I have exposure to them and the Mangalarga seem good-at least theoretically. ?

As a proud owner of a wonderful Peruvian I say once you ride one it is hard to consider any other gaited breed.

Heart's Journey
Feb. 23, 2010, 08:12 AM
When horse shopping for a gaited horse, I purposely avoided any horses that had been shown and I avoided certain bloodlines that I had bad experiences with as being very hot horses. I've found they trip alot more, have horrid feet from the shoeing methods used, don't adapt as well to group trail rides, etc. I found my guy in Miss and he'd only been used for trail riding and camping, exactly what I use him for. While both his grandfathers were former world Grand Champions, one had excelled in pleasure classes, not the big lick ones. (Paint's Handshaker)

He's a wonderful SSH/TW gelding that is a fantastic trail horse, wonderful ground manners, and is very smooth, well gaited and barefoot.

Once I transferred his papers with both associations, I let my membership expire as I too was appalled at the magazine showing the big lick horses.

I'm in a trail riding club and we have quite a few gaited breeds represented and most are excellent trail horses, well loved by their owners and very suitable for their jobs. I don't think there's a former big lick among them and probably 75% of them are barefoot. (SSH, TW, MFT, Paso, Peruvian, Rocky Mt, Standardbred, and Ky Mt)

Gaited horses are extremely popular in Fla for trail riding and the market is still very good for them here.

Guilherme
Feb. 23, 2010, 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by tkhawk
. But I like Peruvians as I have exposure to them and the Mangalarga seem good-at least theoretically. ?

We looked at Peruvians in the early '90s and were very interested. We visited a breeder in Memphis and rode some lovely horses. We then planned a trip to FL to see more and got hit hard in a blatant "bait and switch" scheme. Given the dollars involved we backed up and didn't pursue the effort.

About that time I discoved the Marchadors, but it took me five years to find any in the U.S. As trail horses they are excellent. The variety of gait permits comfortable travel over a wide variety of terrain. They are very successful in enduro (a distance riding discipline) in Brazil and often best the Arabs and Arab crosses that normally dominate. I only know of one U.S. endurance rider on a Marchador.

Any gaited breed that begins to concentrate only on one way of going will ultimately begin to have problems.

G.

angie j
Feb. 23, 2010, 09:33 AM
[QUOTE]
were you there ? when it happened ? then you do recall what was said to the media after the class was over by the "connections" ? right?

and do you consider that movement he exhibits the "epitome" of breeding walking horses? really ??

how you could consider that animal on those merits is beyond the scope of rational thought....



I was not there, nor do I think in our day and age one needs to be present at every event to be aware of it.

"The eptiome of breeding walkers", eh? Well, if you are considering 'movement' as the principal factor when considering a Walker and I have to compare Him to a Big Lick Walker, I'm gonna have to ask the same question 'right back at ya', since, how you could consider any of 'those' animals on the merits of movement is beyond rational thought.

Tamara in TN
Feb. 23, 2010, 09:40 AM
[QUOTE=angie j;4705572]

I was not there, nor do I think in our day and age one needs to be present at every event to be aware of it.

I suggest you pick your heroes carefully.


"The epitome of breeding walkers", eh? Well, if you are considering 'movement' as the principal factor when considering a Walker and I have to compare Him to a Big Lick Walker, I'm gonna have to ask the same question 'right back at ya', since, how you could consider any of 'those' animals on the merits of movement is beyond rational thought.

I do not breed to padded stock...never considered it even back then..

regards

Tamara in TN

sourmilknightmares
Feb. 23, 2010, 09:43 AM
...but I can't find a real footing out here in the real world for good, natural, sound TWHs in competition. I'd have to travel at least one full state away to compete in NWHA, and FOSH? Forget it, not a hint of it here. I can't up and go to Missouri for a weekend, or KY. There's not a darn thing I can do with this horse to earn him some recognition. It's frustrating.

I think you summed it up best. It's for this reason I won't touch a Walker. Unless you want to trail ride, there is really nothing you can do with them competitively. It's sad but it's true. I'm sure they are great mounts for trail and people who are just tired of the bump of the trot but for someone who wants to compete, Walkers are a no go.

angie j
Feb. 23, 2010, 09:46 AM
[QUOTE]

I suggest you pick your heroes carefully.

I don't have 'heros'.....
I am aware people have their 'own' agendas....
I am also aware that 'sitting in the front of the bus' generates needed attention.

angie j
Feb. 23, 2010, 09:53 AM
Unless you want to trail ride, there is really nothing you can do with them competitively. I'm sure they are great mounts for trail and people who are just tired of the bump of the trot .

The thing is that is 'exactly' what they are bred for. I do have back issues and a smooth ride is the key element. I don't need a big showy head shake or a high step. I hate to see a breed not succeeding for doing exactly what it was meant to do, and for being distained as a circus side show. It's sad realy.

Tamara in TN
Feb. 23, 2010, 09:54 AM
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;4705587]

I don't have 'heros'.....
I am aware people have their 'own' agendas....
I am also aware that 'sitting in the back of the bus' generates needed attention.

good then you can proceed with caution:)
that's all I am suggesting:)

Tamara in TN

Guilherme
Feb. 23, 2010, 10:11 AM
I think you summed it up best. It's for this reason I won't touch a Walker. Unless you want to trail ride, there is really nothing you can do with them competitively. It's sad but it's true. I'm sure they are great mounts for trail and people who are just tired of the bump of the trot but for someone who wants to compete, Walkers are a no go.

Don't you first have to ask, "What do you want to compete in?" ;)

Walkers, and the vast majority of other North American soft gaited horses, are "road horses." They were bred to get a rider from here to there over a variety of ground in a safe, sane, and comfortable fashion. This means that a lot of "competitive" work is just going to be beyond them. Not because they are bad horses but because they lack the conformation, way of going, or temperment for the competition.

Can a Walker work a cow or jump a fence or play at some "dressage?" Some can; some have. But that's not why Mr. Dement and his ancestors and contemporaries bred them. What the Walker is today is descended from a specific type of horse designed to give a specific type of performance. Stay within the boundaries of that performance and you'll do fine. Go outside and you'll likely be frustrated.

I've no comment at this time on Watchout or the program surrounding him.

G.

sourmilknightmares
Feb. 23, 2010, 10:21 AM
No, I agree. A well-bred, modern Walker is fabulous at doing what he was bred to do same as a cutting bred Quarter Horse might not make the best hunter. The person I quoted was talking about how she DID have a Walker that was dressage worthy and could not find a place within her state (or the next over I believe) where she should show her animal. That is why I would pass on a Walker, even one that could do exactly what I wanted, because I would have great difficulty finding anywhere where I could compete. It's sad and hopefully one of those things we will see change one day.

katarine
Feb. 23, 2010, 10:42 AM
Actually, NWHA has a program called the Lifetime Superior Achievment Program that allows you to earn points in Versatility, Model, English Pleasure and Western Pleasure. You keep up with the points yourself and can earn points in any show that has a licensed judge. FMI: http://www.nwha.com/lifetime.html

Are you totally sure on that?

NWHA won't recognize USDF judges unless they are also NWHA judges. Fat chance that person exists. I can ride under USDF judges all day long on NWHA tests in USDF shows...and NWHA won't recognize the effort.

I'll give your assertion the benefit of the doubt and take a look at their lifetime achievement award, maybe there IS a loophole there...

Sour milk, you are talking about me :)

I have a very cool 8 YO Pusher/Coins Hard Cash horse we bought for my SO when I was quite green to Walkers. I never intended to show him, He was supposed to be a trail horse. Aye aye aye he's too much horse. So he's turned out to be a super quick study with a very pretty look and the makings of a true, beautiful canter and fabulous medium/flat/running walk. He is too much horse for my SO, so he's ended up being my horse.

So, no, I did not start out wanting to show him, but no traditional walker trainer around here could help us. I tried, I've surely tried. When I took a Larry Whitesell clinic the bell went off in my head. I found a dressage trainer to help me clean up his step pacey way of living and get right with God, LOL, and by golly he is starting to look fantastic. Because "Pushers are idiots" and he has so much bad modern Big Lick blood I really would love to have an avenue to show people that with time and training, even a Pusher can be an all right kind of horse ;). I'm stubborn that way.

I hope the Three Phase Event they've got going in KY will catch on, perhaps we can make it up there next year. I can't do it this year, he's not ready. We have found the local dressage groups open to adding the gaited tests, and it will be very neat to see their eyes bug out when Chippy comes to town :)

http://www.threephaseevent.org/

pj
Feb. 23, 2010, 10:48 AM
I hate to see a breed not succeeding for doing exactly what it was meant to do, and for being distained as a circus side show. It's sad realy.
Angie, please understand that it is NOT the breed that is "distained" it is the people who turn the horses into the circus side show.
IMHO it says worlds about the walker breed that most haven't turned into vicious, insane animals when they are turned into big lick horses.
I knew only one once who would attack his trainer every chance that he got. Didn't blame him a bit and even he was kind and gentle with all other people he came in contact with. They are very forgiving animals.

katarine
Feb. 23, 2010, 11:33 AM
Where the money goes the corruption will follow. Ask anyone eyeballing the WP videos of QHs about what a QH looks like, you might get a weird answer.

I don't think anyone is dismissing the breed as a whole. Well, ok, the folks that peel off and create a zillion offshoots and call them breeds, maybe. And they want your dollars, too ;) Look at the McCurdy's: they ARE TWHs. And some of them pace like all get out ;)


You certainly don't see gaited horses getting the cold shoulder if you trail ride or like to ride the roads. That is what these horses were bred to do- go on down the road in a smooth fashion.

angie j
Feb. 23, 2010, 11:42 AM
Angie, please understand that it is NOT the breed that is "distained" it is the people who turn the horses into the circus side show.

Let me explain that...

Where I am from there aren't any Walkers, or very few, so, what is it that the 'adverage Joe' knows about Walkers? I'm sure it's very different in many States, but when Tennessee Walker comes to mind the sad truth is the Big Lick horses are a World Class representative of the breed. That is reflected onto the breed itself.

angie j
Feb. 23, 2010, 11:47 AM
. When I took a Larry Whitesell clinic the bell went off in my head.

I'm taking a Larry Whitesell clinic this summer. How did you like it?

pj
Feb. 23, 2010, 11:53 AM
[QUOTE]

make quite sure you have principles in common first,before you break out your check book,as you would with any political statement



were you there ? when it happened ? then you do recall what was said to the media after the class was over by the "connections" ? right?

and do you consider that movement he exhibits the "epitome" of breeding walking horses? really ??

how you could consider that animal on those merits is beyond the scope of rational thought....

Tamara in TN

For those of us who don't know would someone please fill us in on this?

katarine
Feb. 23, 2010, 12:01 PM
I'm taking a Larry Whitesell clinic this summer. How did you like it?

He is a very good clinician and trainer. He wants horses ridden in snaffles. He emphasizes ground schooling of lateral flexion, dropping the face to the ground if cued to truly let go of tension. He emphasizes steering with your seat/body language. He emphasizes getting the horse working through his back and using his body more effectively not dragging themselves by their front end. He demo'd some long lining and longeing in side reins, but not very much. I don't think he'd planned for it but made room for it when asked.

I am not sure who his trainer is that he works with, but I THINK it is Dominique Barbier, whom I am given to understand may not be the very best for 'classical dressage'. I can say that what Larry offered me, maybe b/c it was very low level and basic... helped me quite a lot, and helped me turn loose of the notions I had, concious and unconcious, that gaited horses are different. That fueled my desire to find good local instruction, and here we are.

If you want a strong emphasis on 'dressage', then Larry may not be the strongest. If you want tools in your toolbox to help improve gait and supplemness and less tension, then it is money well spent. I fell like I'm splitting hairs in saying that but hey, we walked for three days, no lateral work, whereas now my warm ups involve some SI, some LY, stuff like that, we never get anywhere near. But I was the only person in the clinic with even a vague notion of what those even were, so maybe it was partly the hand he was dealt, don't know...

PM me if I can tell you more. I do consider that weekend money well spent.

JollyBadger
Feb. 23, 2010, 12:13 PM
[QUOTE]

make quite sure you have principles in common first,before you break out your check book,as you would with any political statement



were you there ? when it happened ? then you do recall what was said to the media after the class was over by the "connections" ? right?

and do you consider that movement he exhibits the "epitome" of breeding walking horses? really ??

how you could consider that animal on those merits is beyond the scope of rational thought....

Tamara in TN

I wasn't at all involved in TWHs at the time Champagne Watchout made his initial "appearance" alongside the Big Lick horses, so I don't know what was said to whom, or by whom.

While I do think it was great that they were able to get CW into that class, I would have to agree that he's not exactly the epitome of the natural-shod TWH. He till looks a heck of a lot more comfortable to ride than the Flailing Freak Show, though. :winkgrin:

JollyBadger
Feb. 23, 2010, 12:29 PM
Because "Pushers are idiots" and he has so much bad modern Big Lick blood I really would love to have an avenue to show people that with time and training, even a Pusher can be an all right kind of horse ;). I'm stubborn that way.

I hope the Three Phase Event they've got going in KY will catch on, perhaps we can make it up there next year. I can't do it this year, he's not ready. We have found the local dressage groups open to adding the gaited tests, and it will be very neat to see their eyes bug out when Chippy comes to town :)

http://www.threephaseevent.org/

I saw the video about the TPE last year and was intrigued. . .would love to go see it in person some time! Maybe, with the NWHA having the opportunity to showcase the "natural" breed at the WEG later this year, it will generate more interest in the breed overall and other TPE-type events will begin to spring up.

A couple of years ago I spoke to a guy at Equine Affaire in Columbus, OH who was working in one of the competitive trail ride booths. He did say that, although he was an "Arab guy," the TWH's tend to do very well in CTRs while Endurance is still pretty much dominated by Arabians. It doesn't bother me that TWHs are "only good for trail riding," because they are really really good at it!:D

My boyfriend also has a "Pusher" horse - bought as a two year old at the auction down in Bowling Green, KY. Being relatively new to Walkers and not really knowing much about the traits of many of the bloodlines, it still surprises me to hear negative things about that line after meeting this horse. The bf's Pusher horse is a beefy 17hh gelding, with one of the most laid-back and gentle temperaments I've ever seen in any horse.

Unless he sees a chipmunk. . .but we won't go there. . .:D

Guilherme
Feb. 23, 2010, 12:54 PM
No, I agree. A well-bred, modern Walker is fabulous at doing what he was bred to do same as a cutting bred Quarter Horse might not make the best hunter. The person I quoted was talking about how she DID have a Walker that was dressage worthy and could not find a place within her state (or the next over I believe) where she should show her animal. That is why I would pass on a Walker, even one that could do exactly what I wanted, because I would have great difficulty finding anywhere where I could compete. It's sad and hopefully one of those things we will see change one day.

If you want do Dressage you're going to do walk-trot-canter 'cause that's what Dressage is all about. If you want to do some dressage then you can do it on anything with four feet (including a steer)! :cool: I don't find this odd or objectionable; it's just how the rules are.

I've got a couple of Marchadors that have a very diagonal way of going and could probably do some Dressage, at least at the lower levels. But they are not going to be competitive beyond that as they weren't bred for it. I've got a bunch of heartburn with Dressage as it's become almost as big a circus as the Big Lick, but that's a whole other discussion.

As far rail classes are concerned, a Walker ought to be as competitive as a TB or QH in most instances. Walkers can do Working Equitation, Cowboy Mounted Shooting, some of the Extreme Cowboy stuff, etc. Again, a road horse might not be competitive at the top levels of any of this stuff, but that's a legacy of the type, not the breed.

Diversity and versitility are very PC in the human world, but in the equine world are more chimera than reality. Put another way, you can put a square peg into a round hole, but it's tough on the peg, hole, and mallet. ;)

G.

Tamara in TN
Feb. 23, 2010, 12:58 PM
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;4704827]

For those of us who don't know would someone please fill us in on this?

allright...written (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.equestrian/browse_frm/thread/31dd2a69bdf1260a/a7fc2c12be41ead2?lnk=gst&q=+nathan+jackson#a7fc2c12be41ead2) by me in 1999

after garnering support of all kinds of support (including money) from all kinds of flatshod people, they basically pissed on them in the end...

Tamara in TN

wendy
Feb. 23, 2010, 01:18 PM
Where I am from there aren't any Walkers, or very few, so, what is it that the 'adverage Joe' knows about Walkers? I'm sure it's very different in many States, but when Tennessee Walker comes to mind the sad truth is the Big Lick horses are a World Class representative of the breed. That is reflected onto the breed itself.

ditto. You see a lot of people happily gaiting down the trails on Rocky Mountain horses, though. The only TWH I've ever seen in person was a "rescue" from the padded-shoe freakshow who had some serious physical and mental issues.

katarine
Feb. 23, 2010, 02:17 PM
The dressage tests I'm doing are not square pegs in round holes. It is misleading to suggest the TWH would be asked to ride the USDF test. They are not. At the shows I've found willing to add either a gaited division or simply accept the NWHA test...the NWHA's VERSION of the 'real' USDF test, is what the horse is scored against. In other words, no trotting.


Into B:

http://www.nwha.com/dressage/09IntroLevelTestB.pdf

Introducing the canter at Training Level:

http://www.nwha.com/dressage/09TrainingLevelTest1.pdf

And a first level test:

http://www.nwha.com/dressage/09FirstLevelTest1.pdf

From NWHA.com:

8.3.1 The Medium Walk
The medium walk is a marching pace in "four time". Often, in the world of the gaited horse, the slow (normal horse) walk is referred to as a dog walk. In no case should the medium walk be “dog-like”. Rather, it is an energetic, marching gait. The horse is soft and giving through the poll and jaw, listening
to the aids, and has its hind end engaged. The horse should use its back and exhibit some overstride. Remember, the name of this gait is the medium walk.

8.3.2 Free Walk
At the free walk, the horse is allowed to lower and stretch out its head and neck. At this forward moving gait, the horse stretches forward and downward over its top line in search of contact. One does not throw away the reins, but rather allows the horse to take them as he stretches. The horse
must be able to listen to seat and legs for guidance and to maintain straightness. The free walk is often performed on the diagonal, which is the longest possible straight line in the arena. Steering with the hands is penalized.


8.3.3 Flat Walk/ Running walk
The flat walk is a four-beat marching pace with a regular rhythm. The flat walk, should be moved into without hesitation. The flatwalk is clearly a different gait from the medium walk, just as the trot is a clearly different gait in non-gaited dressage. Horses who do not exhibit a clear
intermediate gait must be severely penalized. The running walk is an extension of the flat walk, and will be discussed in section 8.4.3.

angie j
Feb. 23, 2010, 02:42 PM
"....put the little guy on the smallest possible pad...added an action device and made him wear a false tail.... "[/I]

Tamara in TN

Well, he HAD to wear a pad to qualify, but it surely must be alot more than the addition of a fake tail and an action device that elicits such emotion in you. Are you telling me that had the tail and action device been eliminated you would have been accepting of His ride?

Publicity is a non issue for me. I might as well hate Parelli for marketing carrot sticks.

Guilherme
Feb. 23, 2010, 02:44 PM
A horse that doesn't trot can do "dressage" but can't do "Dressage." Maybe that's why there's a disconnect in recognizing scores.

I've watched some folks really stress their Walkers (and other gaited horses) trying to prove how "versitile" they were. IMO that's just poor judgement on the part of the humans.

G.

katarine
Feb. 23, 2010, 02:51 PM
ok, I hear you now. I can live with a little d ;)

And yes, there are horses living a hard life trying to be what they are not. Not every QH can rope a cow and hold it, not every Arabian can cut it as an endurance horse. I'm just glad my guy proved he couldn't cut the mustard as 'cough cough' Performance horse :) but he sure is a fun trail horse. And dressage horse ;)

Tamara in TN
Feb. 23, 2010, 02:52 PM
Well, he HAD to wear a pad to qualify, but it surely must be alot more than the addition of a fake tail and an action device that elicits such emotion in you. Are you telling me that had the tail and action device been eliminated you would have been accepting of His ride?
Publicity is a non issue for me. I might as well hate Parelli for marketing carrot sticks.

I am saying that had it been about the "horse" they would have declined the requirements...

they padded the horse...period...
they padded the horse to enter the class
they padded the horse to enter the class to get publicity

they padded the horse to enter the class to get publicity for themselves and not the horses,or the principles behind the flatshod walking horses or the bloodlines of the flatshod walking horses...or the breeders of the flatshod walking horses or the hundreds of people who supported the effort....

they did it for themselves and no one else...

by caving in to the requirements of the class they made him a padded horse

now if that does not matter to you,
or that the horse has done nothing note worthy,
and has no note worthy sons,
and has no note worthy daughters,
and who was a color experiment to begin with,
and has contributed nothing to the genetics of a breed,
or the breed itself

except a publicity stunt 11 years ago...

then by all means breed to him "on principle"

Tamara in TN

katarine
Feb. 23, 2010, 02:52 PM
angie he's not a good flat shod horse, he's average. But he's colorful.

angie j
Feb. 23, 2010, 03:40 PM
angie he's not a good flat shod horse, he's average. But he's colorful.

I'm aware He's adverage and He isn't the horse I ended up choosing to breed, which I stated in the beginning. My horse isn't going to win any championships either and is shown only limittedly for all of the reasons discussed.


On the other hand asking someone who has been opposed to the 'rights and wrongs' of the ride from the onset, is akin to asking someones 'enemy' for a character assessment on them.

I mean no disrespect to 'anyones' opinion. I do know that when the 'adverage Joe' (again) views that ride it makes a statement. It's a statement I like. Perhaps one someone else doesn't like, for an entirely different set of reasons.


now if that does not matter to you,
or that the horse has done nothing note worthy,
and has no note worthy sons,
and has no note worthy daughters,

Now, had you started off with this statement, we would have had more grounds for reasoning on breeding Him, but you didn't, you based your dislike on politics which is equil to my 'liking' him base on politics.

katarine
Feb. 23, 2010, 04:25 PM
But Angie can you argue that the horse has in fact actually produced quality horses? Fantastic flat shod horses?

Wherever the statement falls in the argument doesn't negate its truth.

Janus
Feb. 23, 2010, 04:33 PM
I am new here and have nothing in common with this thread except I love and respect horses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqFeYu1CrjU&NR=1

Has anyone mentioned this youtube video....especially watch the horse in the background at 5 minutes and tell me this should not be stopped.

GallopHer
Feb. 23, 2010, 04:42 PM
I hope there is a market for the breed. I have one for sale. :)

Tamara in TN
Feb. 23, 2010, 05:03 PM
Now, had you started off with this statement, we would have had more grounds for reasoning on breeding Him, but you didn't, you based your dislike on politics which is equil to my 'liking' him base on politics.

ummm no..I tried,in a polite way, to tell you that he was not the horse to breed to...and that you were using a skewed criteria for him...

that your basis of judging him as a stallion, based on an event that you were not even around for and you don't even know the details of, is just wrong...

he was shown as a padded horse...a little padded to me, is like a little stoned or a little pregnant or a little sored or a little scarred...

you are or you are not...you cannot have it both ways...

and time does not erase the details of this "majikal" event

Tamara in TN

Minerva Louise
Feb. 23, 2010, 05:10 PM
I am new here and have nothing in common with this thread except I love and respect horses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqFeYu1CrjU&NR=1

Has anyone mentioned this youtube video....especially watch the horse in the background at 5 minutes and tell me this should not be stopped.


k so I watched the video. First off, let it be clear that I don't like big lick and am definitely anti-soring. That said, I have to say that just because someone put a clip in a vid on youtube that shows a horse trip and almost fall on his face - you cannot say definitely that horse was a sored horse. My horse tripped one day and went so far down as to scrape his head in the arena sand. It was scarey as all hell. BUT... He wasn't sored. He wasn't wearing pads. He just wasn't paying attention to his feet and he tripped and almost fell over. The horse in the video took a bad step. May have been due to being sored, may not. It's not like we can examine the horse's legs for scars or strange oders or whatever in a grainy video.

I'd be highly likely to trip and fall on my face wearing platform shoes even if they didn't hurt my feet. That is all I'm sayin...

angie j
Feb. 23, 2010, 07:57 PM
judging him as a stallion, based on an event that you were not even around for.....

and you don't even know the details of, is just wrong...

you are or you are not...you cannot have it both ways...



The details of the event are public record. I wasn't at many events in history, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn't make me unaware.

There are many things that you simply can have both ways. YOU are welcome to take sides and say "This way without varriation", but I don't see life that way. I can drink and not drink to excess. Some won't drink at all; Some do nothing but.

Again, I understand you particular point of view. I'm clearly not as emotionaly attatched to it as you are. But again, I don't think this horses 'abilities' are the issue with you, though, perhaps I'm wrong. If this was the Best Walker that ever glided over the face of this earth I believe your distaste would remain. You are welcome to that opinion.

Tamara in TN
Feb. 23, 2010, 08:03 PM
T If this was the Best Walker that ever glided over the face of this earth I believe your distaste would remain. You are welcome to that opinion.

well, you do not know me as well as you think you do:)

if he was all that they would never have lowered him into a padded class...;)

but tell me then, how much "being padded" is ok, with you personally ?

Tamara in TN

angie j
Feb. 23, 2010, 08:05 PM
But Angie can you argue that the horse has in fact actually produced quality horses? Fantastic flat shod horses?
.

That I will honestly say I don't know, as I passed on Watchout before looking at his get. I decided on several and only proceeded indepthly looking at the final 2.

Janus
Feb. 23, 2010, 11:26 PM
Ignorance is bliss. That was not a simple trip if you analyze it. The horse is sore...maybe not from soring...but he is hurting and is not able to balance his weight or move it back. I have ridden for a lot of years (50+) and had many a young or untrained horse trip so am aware of it happening but I see a very hurting animal there. This is an award winning presentation that ended up on YouTube so I don't think it is your ordinary clip and someon would have called them on it if anything was untrue.

elysian*fields*farm
Feb. 24, 2010, 01:05 AM
Walking Horses were originally developed mainly in the southeastern US in the 1800s as reliable comfortable all-purpose horses. BEFORE there was the TWHBEA, there were walking horses. Most people down here called them plantation horses, or plantation walkers because they were very favored by planters, foremen and overseers who had to travel all over the plantations checking on how the work was going-- this was before mechanized farming when it took gangs of people to do the work using teams of mules and even hand tools. Often they had to travel between plantations to check on the work-- that's right many plantations were actually made up of large tracts that were not all in one place next to each other.

These walking horses were also favored by people who had to travel great distances over roads that could not always accomodate a buggy or wagon-- think circuit riding judges and preachers-- and even some doctors. Lawmen liked walkers too for mounts when they went out with a posse-- so did the slave catchers. Anyone whose business kept them in the saddle for long periods, or distances prized walkers becsue of the easy gaits that were quite brisk in most cases.

According to Dr. Womack, and Mr. Green, I believe, the first horse we know of with a documented name who performed the running walk was a horse called Bald Stockings. Now Bald Stockings lived in the 1830s -- a full century BEFORE the THWBA, now the TWHBEA came into existance.

I'm not saying that people in Tennessee and even Kentucky were not breeding walkers-- these are well known horse producing states. BUT people throughout the South were breeding and producinig walking horses or plantation horses or plantation walkers. When the TN boys started their stud book-- a number of the foundation horses and the 00 horses came from states other than TN. Many of these horses were also already registered as Standardbreds or even Morgans.

Walkers were the original comfortable endurance horse in the US. And a well-bred, naturally gaited walker that is properly trained and prepared can compete successfully in long distance trail competitions or endurance rides.

Unlike the Spanish gaited breeds, walkers have calm forgiving natures-- you don't have to worry about most well-bred experienced walkers jumping out from under you because a leaf floats by. I know the PP and PF affectionatos like their "brio" but I like a horse who is not so full of himself. And yes, I have ridden these horses- I own a PP that I can't ride because he has shown symptoms of DSLD -- a condition many PP breeders deny exists. I also have PF gelding that I don't particularly enjoy riding becasue I can never fully relax on him--every leaf is a horse eating boogy out to get him.

Back to walkers. The problem, IMHO, started for the walkers when their breeders caught the show ring bug that had already infected the ASB breeders to some extent. But remember, in the early days most of these shows were county fair type shows where normally shod stallions, geldings and mares competed. Naturally, people wanted to breed their mares to a horse that had won some ribbons and was held by the judges to be a good example of the breed. Horses sired by a stallion "who had done something" or out of a mare with a show record always have brought more than horses by an unknown or out of an unknown - that's just a fact-- people want the cachet of a "name brand.".

Once there became a show world where horses were valued ONLY because of their show records, not because of any real world accomplishments, then stuff started to happen-- bad stuff. The problem with the TWH world is that the show world is what controls everything -- and by that I mean the Big Lick show world-- the flatshod show horses have alweays been looked at as "also rans." If you don't believe me, look at the differnce in the sales prices on the whole and look at the difference in the stud fees on the whole.

As far as "Champagne Watchout"-- well I had already turned my back on ALL of the TWH show world before he came along. But I can understand someone's desire to want to show their horse in the World Grand Championship Stake-- not just the plantation world grand championship. But all in all I view it as a sort of stunt and a kind of sell out-- an admission that flatshod isn't as good as big lick by someone who was supposed to be a champion of the sound flatshod horse. That is just my humble opinion.

Anyway back to the question-- "Is there a market for the TWH?" I believe there will always be a market down here in the South for a well bred naturally gaited walking horse. People like me who want to ride a horse for pure pleasure will always treasure a good Walker.

Now as far as how you find a good walker, well that takes knowledge and patience and trying before buying. And it is a fact that some of the Big Lick freaks do somehow manage to still produce some naturally gaited confortable walkers-- but they also produce a lot of pacing fools.

And I have also seen some pacing fools that come from suposedly "pure non-big lick old time stock." You have to know what you are looking at, and if you don't then stay away from buying a young thing or a yearling-- buy an experienced horse that has had some miles put on it under saddle.

When choosing a horse to breed your mare to, you have to consider not only the stallion's bloodlines, but his conformation and his gait and disposition as well as your mare's to make the right chioce. And as for breeding for color-- well unless you are breeding for a color registry, it is never a good idea, IMHO, to choose a horse just because you like its color-- if what you really want is a well gaited horse-- which IMHO, would be the primary reason you are looking to buy or breed a walking horse.

Remember the walking horse has always had the potential to be mixed gaited-- even Allen F-1 (Black Allen) was said to have been known to pace when driven-- that is why he was sold in the first place-- his breeder wanted Standardbred trotters. One thing you can say is that most walkers bred to another walker, will produce a walking horse, but the quality of the gaits in the offspring can vary greatly even from foal to foal of the same sire and dam-- just like race horses-- there are racing greats who have full and half siblings that never "do much" on the track.

A good rule of thumb when looking for a good walker is never to say never-- I have known several people who "rescued" big lick horses and ended up with very well-gaited flatshod pleasure horses-- some that actually had a good show career and went on to produce other winning flatshod walkers. I've known other people who were bitterly disappointed at the pacy gait their rescued walker possessed no matter what bit they tried or how many miles they rode or how many training videos they watched from "well known" flat shod horse trainers.

The first walker I ever rode was a registered TWH at a lesson stable in Biloxi, MS. I never knew his registered name-- he was called Big Red-- he was a very kind patient big red chestnut gelding. He had never been anywhere near a show ring, but he taught countless children how to ride for the ring-- and also he went out on trails, too. (This was in the 50s before the padded and chained big lick mania had fully taken hold.)

And as far as padded horses not making good plantation show horses, well I know lots of winning flatshod horses who were "taken down" and became good plantation and liteshod show horses. I have also owned several winning plantation or liteshod horses had who had padded up horses all over their papers. One that comes to mind is Tin Lizzie- an own daughter of Sun's Delight D (padded up show WGC) who was my son's flatshod horse who won all kinds of classes -- including versatility classes like pole bending, jumping, barrel racing and western pleasure two-gait in addition to the regular saddleseat classes. Another good flatshod horse we bred is a son of Tin Lizzie-- Double Delight of Pride (originally registered as Hamilton's Legacy) who was exported to Germany and stands at stud there. He has get winning in the European show rings now. Well he has both WGC Pride of Midnight HF and WGC Sun's Delight D on his papers- more than once, and he is producing good solid natural walking horses.

There are really no hard and fast rules for picking a good walker. To paraphrase Forest Gump, "A walking horse is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you'll get."

Minerva Louise
Feb. 24, 2010, 11:21 AM
There are some ugly truths that the gaited horse show world is subject to that insure that soring will always be there, forever and ever, amen.

Truth number 1: The gait can be "fixed" by soring. Soring is the quickest, easiest, cheapest way to a show-winning gait. It doesn't matter what class the horse is shown in be it padded, lite shod, flat shod, or barefoot and butt naked. If it is being judged on its ability to gait, soring becomes an issue.

Truth number 2: The rich owner is paying the pro trainer to W-I-N. They are not paying the pro to love the horse. They are not paying the pro to dilly dally and take a long time to get to winning either. Win, win NOW, and win BIG. Oh yeah - and- win with whatever we tell you to win with, even it it can't gait its way out of a paper bag.

Truth number 3: The pro trainer's reputation and ability to make money hinges on WINNING and WINNING BIG. That AIN'T gonna happen if you don't sore your horses (see truths #2 & #3).

Truth number 4: The judges will continue to look the other way. Why is this? Because the judges' continued ability to obtain judging assignments hinges on their popularity and abiltiy to draw the big barns to the show, equaling the judges' ability to garner entry fees for the show organizers, so that the show makes money. If the big trainers don't show up because they know they won't win under a certain judge, the whole show is a failure. So judges will be selected based on their ability to pull in lots of entries.

By the way, dog shows are EXACTLY the same way. I should know; I have a Japanese Chin at my feet begging for corn chips that finished his championship with straight 5-point majors. Bam Bam Bam, just like that. One long weekend and done. That's what you pay the pro handler for. To win. It's the pro's job to know the judges and present the dog to a judge they know will pick the dog to win. I'm not interested in paying entry fees when I know a judge doesn't like the type of dog I have. I'm not interested in paying milage for a pro to haul my dog all over the country if they aren't winning. I only keep paying if they keep winning...

katarine
Feb. 24, 2010, 12:24 PM
And...to add confusion to the mix, there are a myriad of organizations and rules that dictate what's a legal lite shod shoe at this show, vs that show. It's not anything like USDF, or NRHA, or or or. Each little pocket of shows/organizations can have it's own HIO and therefore it's own rules. It's crazy and b/c it's so scattered, I can't fathom how it can realistically grow. A horse that's legal on Saturday at one show would not be wearing legal shoes on Sunday.

I wish I'd really seen the writing on the wall when I got started looking into the TWH. I knew it was a mess, but surely not the hot mess it actually is ;) The hot mess will hopefully die off in time, but I'm not holding my breath. But honestly I'm happy with the horses I have- my Pusher guy is a gem, my monster filly, also a Pusher GD but mellow, is priceless. And my SO's little SSH is worth his weight in gold to me.

I think I'll just go ride my dang horse! I DID learn that NWHA WILL honor points earned at the USDF shows that are kindly offering me a chance at the NWHA dressage tests, in their lifetime achievement program. That is cool. And yes, that's dressage with a little d c/o G's education of me LOL.

Minerva Louise
Feb. 24, 2010, 12:38 PM
I DID learn that NWHA WILL honor points earned at the USDF shows that are kindly offering me a chance at the NWHA dressage tests, in their lifetime achievement program. That is cool. And yes, that's dressage with a little d c/o G's education of me LOL.

Hey - that is good news! Glad that tidbit worked out for you Kat!

Myself, I just want to go on a trail ride. If I can find an organization that will let me count miles or hours and turn it in for some sort of yippie skippie at the end of the year, great. I might try a CTR some day... If not, oh well. I just enjoy my time in the woods on the horse. Ribbons? I don't need no stinkin' ribbons. :lol:

Guilherme
Feb. 24, 2010, 01:07 PM
The Big Lick gait has always been a "manufactured gait," not a "trained gait."

Sadly, even in the Light Shod and so-called "sound horse" venues the gaits look much more "made" than "trained."

A pacy Walker can be trained to peform an acceptable running walk in 90 days to six months (depending on the horse and rider). Or you can get a pacer to walk in an hour if the farrier knows what he's about. As noted, somebody in it to "win" will like take the second path.

ElysianFields gave an excellent sketch of Walker history. I'd add that when you look at a stallion or a mare don't just look at them, but look at their sires, dams, and siblings. In looking at the line as well as the individual you can reduce the "box of choclates" problem.

G.

spookhorse
Feb. 24, 2010, 03:24 PM
Hey - that is good news! Glad that tidbit worked out for you Kat!

Myself, I just want to go on a trail ride. If I can find an organization that will let me count miles or hours and turn it in for some sort of yippie skippie at the end of the year, great. I might try a CTR some day... If not, oh well. I just enjoy my time in the woods on the horse. Ribbons? I don't need no stinkin' ribbons. :lol:

Here's a newish one (or at least one that has come across my field of vision recently)

http://www.actha.us/

Easier than a NATRC CTR, it sounds like, and there seem to be more rides available.

retento
Feb. 25, 2010, 08:00 PM
I think I'll just go ride my dang horse! I DID learn that NWHA WILL honor points earned at the USDF shows that are kindly offering me a chance at the NWHA dressage tests, in their lifetime achievement program. That is cool. And yes, that's dressage with a little d c/o G's education of me LOL.

Glad the info was useful to you. TWHBEA offers a somewhat similar program in their Supreme Versatility Program. The TWHBEA doesn't separate out the different Championships you can earn but this year they revamped the way in which points are accrued so it is a little easier to earn points when class sizes are small. www.twhbea.com I think it's under programs/Versatility

The only issue I have run into at dressage competitions that allow the use of the NWHA tests is that they have separated the TWH's out into a separate class instead of placing them in say an Intro or Training class with everyone else. If you are the only TWH showing, it will be hard to earn points if you are not competing against anyone else

runningwalk1984
Feb. 25, 2010, 10:01 PM
Membership is dropping. A lot. In the past four years, TWHBEA memberships have gone from 18,457 to 10,942. It just baffles me that the leadership at TWHBEA seems so bent on continuing to support and promote the "Performance Horse" that it will sacrifice all else and run the whole organization into the ground.

It was WORSE with Arabians, which I was involved with for many years. The breed organizations catered only to the halter and saddleseat markets. It got to the point where USEFUL horses w/ half a brain and solid conformation were very hard to find. There truly would be a market for good pleasure horses if the breeders would produce them, but the vast majority of breeders are either trying for either a halter star or a saddleseat horse that is way too hot for the average pleasure owner, or they are backyard breeders that don't know what they are doing.

To be honest, I see more useable, sane horse coming out of the TWH market. At least the horses are bred for riding rather than to be pasture ornaments. That being said, I am very glad that big lick is no longer prevalent in Ohio! I like high motion, but the horse should have it naturally or it is worthless to me.

katarine
Feb. 26, 2010, 09:36 AM
Thanks for the info. I don't care about points and winning so much as getting a chance to get an informed opinion about how we're doing. I'm not going to invest enough money and time and travel to win anything from either association in terms of points, I just like getting out and getting a score and some feedback.

Guilherme
Feb. 26, 2010, 09:50 AM
Thanks for the info. I don't care about points and winning so much as getting a chance to get an informed opinion about how we're doing. I'm not going to invest enough money and time and travel to win anything from either association in terms of points, I just like getting out and getting a score and some feedback.

What kind of "feedback" are you looking for? Something for the horse, for your skills, or some combination?

If it's for the horse you're kind of out of luck if there are no breed/type specific shows or shows with classes for "gaited" horses. Even then unless you're competing against just Walkers I'm not sure what the quality of any feedback might be.

If you're looking for opinions on your skills and how they might be enhanced you can get this from about any "rail" show, dressage/Dressage test, etc. Open shows often have equitation classes. In some ways these are not for the faint of heart as a good judge will call it like they see it. That can be a real "ego bashing"!!! ;)

Some of the biggest East Coast gaited shows are held at the VA Horse Center in Lexington. It would be a haul for you but might be worth it if it advances your goals.

G.

katarine
Feb. 26, 2010, 11:28 AM
I've found shows, G, I'm fine: The BDCTA spring fling show will let me ride my TWH on NWHA test and I'll be judged by USDF judges. I know I can't possibly place well as I'm in the same pot of horses as the trotting horses... but I can get feedback on our halts, circles, transitions, and straightness, etc. And maybe I can show 'them' that a TWH is a nice using horse and can be improved with low level dressage.

In addition, a local three-barn group is adding a gaited division and again we'll use NWHA dressage tests and we'll be placed against each other, in our own division. There are some Pasos coming to one of their shows for sure, so it'll be interesting to see the mix of trotters and walkers and pasoers :)

I was disappointed to see that NWHA wouldn't consider recognizing either of the above, as they'll lack NWHA approved judges, but that may change in time, I'm not too worried about it.

The little local 'open' shows I'll use just for giving him chances to continue to learn/remember that he can relax in a group, that we are not in a race, and he does not have to hurry. They don't offer equitation classes. I'll use the dressage shows as my avenue to get feedback.

Guilherme
Feb. 26, 2010, 12:10 PM
I guess I misunderstood the problem. Sorry about that! :)

Sponsoring groups can get really parochial about recognizing results from other sponsoring groups, even if they are not competitors. IMO this is not good business. Nor is it good for the equine industry at large. I understand the necessity to maintain standards, but sometimes folks just seem to get carried away.

Good luck in working with what you can find. :)

G.

retento
Feb. 26, 2010, 01:49 PM
I know I can't possibly place well as I'm in the same pot of horses as the trotting horses... but I can get feedback on our halts, circles, transitions, and straightness, etc. And maybe I can show 'them' that a TWH is a nice using horse and can be improved with low level dressage.



You may be suprised. Even when separated out from the trotting horses, we have won High Score for the show several times. I think a good judge will always appreciate cadence, suppleness, straightness, etc, no matter what type of horse it is.

angie j
Apr. 21, 2010, 03:36 PM
but tell me then, how much "being padded" is ok, with you personally ?

Tamara

LOL.. personaly.. I wouldn't do it at all. But there are lots of things I wouldn't do that I wouldn't judge another for doing. I don't have shoes on my horses either, but if someone wants shoes I'm not gonna tell them its 'wrong'.

It appears I'm not gonna breed this year anyways... wanna see why?

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/iredrogue/2907a.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/iredrogue/_MG_2923.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/iredrogue/_MG_2923.jpg

And the truth of the matter is... I don't care if his parentd 'did' anything in the show ring. There are a lot of people out there who just want a good horse.

JollyBadger
Jun. 22, 2010, 04:32 PM
I'm not sure if any of you have had a chance to see the What a Horse program (http://www.whatahorse.com), but it's basically a "news" program about what's going on from week to week in the TWH world.

My boyfriend (also a TWH owner) has Dish Network and has DVR'd a couple of episodes, which is a nice alternative to watching the Natural Horsemanship gurus trying to sell their overpriced training gadgets on RFD-TV.:lol:

The show does give a "nod" to the TWHs that are doing well in flat-shod competition, or recent sanctioned TWH association trail rides. And they have little snippets of video footage from shows and commentary about the winning horses. In one episode, they had a special guest who was a riding instructor at a private school, and had quite a few TWHs in her program.

However, I'd say that the majority of the program that I've seen continues to highlight padded/performance horses with plenty of video from recent shows. The commentators just gush about the horses being shown, and I can't help but sit there and shake my head and wonder how anyone can look at the flailing forelegs and crawling hindquarters and think that's how a horse is supposed to move.:no:

What really got to me, though, was an episode that aired last week during which one of the show's hosts said that many people who said they didn't want to show padded/performance horses (because of all the bad things they've heard) later realized it "wasn't so bad after all" and eventually moved from flat-shod to padded.:eek:

Is the TWH world still that backwards?:cry:

Guilherme
Jun. 22, 2010, 05:54 PM
Is the TWH world still that backwards?:cry:

Yes.

G.

hundredacres
Jun. 22, 2010, 06:53 PM
I bought my handsome "big lick" after he had been big licking it around the show ring for 10 years. I bought him from a show barn to save him from that life. I've always considered him my rescue horse. :) (And Ive never given the TWHBEA a dime. He's a gelding & I dont care whose name is on his paper)
Now he's a mountain pony and he loves it.
I'm all for buying TWH's. To RESCUE them.

This is a great idea. A lot of money is raised to save horses from slaughter - it would be just as noble to campaign to save one of those top Big Lick horses...wouldn't that be funny? Suddenly the top BL stallions start to drop out of the biz and get retired by their benefactors :).

Kyzteke
Jun. 22, 2010, 08:41 PM
It was WORSE with Arabians, which I was involved with for many years. The breed organizations catered only to the halter and saddleseat markets. It got to the point where USEFUL horses w/ half a brain and solid conformation were very hard to find. There truly would be a market for good pleasure horses if the breeders would produce them, but the vast majority of breeders are either trying for either a halter star or a saddleseat horse that is way too hot for the average pleasure owner, or they are backyard breeders that don't know what they are doing.

You need to take another look. About 10 years ago the Arab registry figured out they had REALLY shot themselves in the foot way back when and set about changing things in a BIG way.

Rules for showing halter changed after it became obvious (by the drastic drop in halter entries) the public was disgusted with the old guard.

Entries for hunter/jumping/dressage/sporthorse climbed so far/fast that AHS started a whole new annual show for those disciplines -- and it became wildly popular.

The registry really promoted Arab racing, making an affordable option (compared to TB racing) for those who love that sport.

Endurance riding -- well, enuff said about that -- Arabs pretty much own that sport.

And meanwhile (luckily) there are have been enough dedicated breeders of CMK, Davenport, Spanish and other sound & good minded strains of "using" Arabs who have continued to produce these types of horses. Most didn't show (too expensive) or even advertise alot, but I was very surprised how many good-boned, sane, nice-moving Arabs I found in my area (PNW) when I went looking.

Yeah, still alot of junk, but I think the breed registry realized its mistake and is changing the direction/marketing.

Sounds like the TWH registry needs to do the same. I know with the Boomers all getting creaky, gaited trail horses are gaining in popularity. It seems to me that with some 4+ pages of posters just on this thread, you guys are going about it in the wrong way by baling.

Instead why not join the current registry, get all your like-minded friends to join and try to impact change from within.

Either that or start a new registry -- I always said the best way to get rich was to start a registry or a religion....;)

mustangtrailrider
Jun. 22, 2010, 10:54 PM
I have yet to send my TWH papers in on my mare. I do not wish to give the registry my money.

hundredacres
Jun. 23, 2010, 08:07 AM
Instead why not join the current registry, get all your like-minded friends to join and try to impact change from within.

Either that or start a new registry -- I always said the best way to get rich was to start a registry or a religion....;)

Another great idea. In the same line of thought, I wish the Mustang people would do that and get all those Mustangs off the govt. payroll so the breed could actually be legit, and improved.

Trakehner
Jun. 23, 2010, 08:48 AM
Sad, Sad and Sad...the "big lick" has it's followers, so did women with bound feet in China....very sad.

My mule has a TWH mom, he has a wonderful natural TWH gait (with additional sound effects when necessary)...all done without pads or fake training. He even gaits with his blaze orange Renegade hoof boots on the trail...now that's a look to bring a tear to the old TWH guys.

katarine
Jun. 23, 2010, 09:53 AM
The TWHBEA is not the be all and end all of TWHs. The NWHA promotes a sound horse. No pads. No big lick. And the TWHBEA is not directly involved with the shows in the way the AQHA is, for example. Instead there's an alphabet soup of organizations scattered all over, and each with their own definition of what's allowed, shoe weights, etc- it's a big hot mess.

I have a lovely TWHBEA registered gelding that I am kicking fanny with ....in regular, open, dressage schooling shows. We've earned high point in 4 of our first 6 shows. We ride the NWHA versions of the USDF tests (and they are USDF approved tests). He's been a lovely ambassador thus far for the breed, I get so many compliments from the judges, spectators, etc, as he's quiet as a lamb warming up then poppy and pretty in the arena. I will attend the NWHA National show in Sept this yr as a spectator, but better learn if that organization seems to offer what we'd want on a 'bigger show' level: we'll see. As flashy as he is, I hope-long term- we can find venues to let him show outsiders just how cool these horses can be. Even if they are bred to the teeth to be Big Lick horses, which he is.

I don't know what the future holds for TWHBEA, but thus far what they are offering is not attractive to folks like me, maybe in time the tides will turn. But so long as they have fresh horses and peeps who like that spider walking desparate look, they'll keep on keeping on.

kittykeno
Jul. 13, 2010, 12:04 AM
Let me just say I do not know a great deal about TWHs but I can tell you there are a large number of these horses in the Los Angeles area. They are all ridden and shod naturally. I've never seen Big Lick whatever or soring any where. They make wonderful trail horses and have great minds. Big Lick wouldn't last a minute over here, that's for sure.

LuvMyNSH
Jul. 13, 2010, 11:45 AM
Big Lick wouldn't last a minute over here, that's for sure.

Actually we do have padded trainers here in SoCal and a CA show circuit with 'big lick' classes.

hundredacres
Jul. 13, 2010, 12:12 PM
So. CA was where I got my first glimpse of Big Lick horses...but it was back in the late 70's, early 80's.

Rackonteur
Jul. 13, 2010, 12:34 PM
I went to a local dressage show awhile back. There were a few gaited dressage entries, who were one of the main reasons I wanted to go to that particular show. I really enjoyed watching the gaited tests. But most of the other dressage riders took that time--when the SSH and TWH entries were in the arena--to stay away from the arena. Only about half a dozen of us stayed to watch the gaited rides.

I was very disappointed in this lack of interest-support-curiosity on the part of the other riders.

But I guess when a dressage person says that WTC horses are frightened by gaited horses, what can you expect? I have never seen a nongaited horse spooked by a gaited one. I wonder if the comment about the horses being frightened was just an excuse--conscious or not.

I'm with you Katarine, I'm interested in seeing TWH and other gaited horses doing dressage.

I'd also love to see the Big Lick movement disappear. It hasn't been around all that long, as things go; maybe one day it will be gone, like docking and a lot of other onetime practices.

Meanwhile, what about the Saddlebreds who are kept up 24/7, with their tails folded up and wrapped and big heavy shoes on their feet even though they're not in training for anything?

Guilherme
Jul. 13, 2010, 05:31 PM
I went to a local dressage show awhile back. There were a few gaited dressage entries, who were one of the main reasons I wanted to go to that particular show. I really enjoyed watching the gaited tests. But most of the other dressage riders took that time--when the SSH and TWH entries were in the arena--to stay away from the arena. Only about half a dozen of us stayed to watch the gaited rides.

I was very disappointed in this lack of interest-support-curiosity on the part of the other riders.

But I guess when a dressage person says that WTC horses are frightened by gaited horses, what can you expect? I have never seen a nongaited horse spooked by a gaited one. I wonder if the comment about the horses being frightened was just an excuse--conscious or not.

I'm with you Katarine, I'm interested in seeing TWH and other gaited horses doing dressage.

I'd also love to see the Big Lick movement disappear. It hasn't been around all that long, as things go; maybe one day it will be gone, like docking and a lot of other onetime practices.

Meanwhile, what about the Saddlebreds who are kept up 24/7, with their tails folded up and wrapped and big heavy shoes on their feet even though they're not in training for anything?

Dressage (with a "D") is walk/trot/canter. Dressage (with a "d") can be anything. More than one person has proposed "gaited dressage" in the past including the Trophaeum Mundi program, the TWHBEA Versitility, the NWHA, etc.

The USDF has shown little or no interest in anything to do with gaited horses. Some judges even hold the completely inaccurate view that "soft gaits" are manufactured, impure gaits. "Manufactured" I understand (think the TWH Big Lick) but an "impure" gait? What's that? One with salacious thoughts?

The "Achilles Heel" of "gaited dressage" is that to be completely fair a Dressage judge would have to know what the gait of the horse in front of them should be. With a trot this is easy. With the soft gaits it's the Devil's Own Business. To use the TWH as an example, there is no breed standard. The only gait standards that I know of are those promulgated by the various judging organizations. So upon what basis would a judge make a decision upon the quality of a running walk?

Now complicate the judge's problem by making them understand the running walk, the marcha batida, the paso largo, the foxtrot, and a generic "single foot." And what if somebody decides to trot their TWH or Saddlebred? Just how is this going to work?

I'm in favor of using a lot of the dressage training techniques to help gaited horses move in a more straight, forward, and square manner. But I'm not in favor of calling it "Dressage" 'cause it isn't.

I'm also not at all happy with the widespread notion that "soft gaits" are the result of human action, lameness, etc. That's just ignorance on the part of the Dressage community.

G.

katarine
Jul. 13, 2010, 05:46 PM
My experience with local schooling shows and the USDF gaited tests has been hugely satisfying thus far. A real surprise.

Only one judge declined to judge me, but that's her right and her point was valid: I don't know what a running walk is supposed to look like, ergo I cannot tell you what might improve it. Her point was she felt unqualified to judge that particular gait. So another person judged us, and it was a fine experience.

The one show that initially refused us entry, reversed their opinion and had a decent turnout of riders (4 gaited horses at the first, 3 at the second). I believe it was a knee jerk no that the God Money overrode in time. Both judges at both shows were comfortable judging us and while they might not know an ideal running walk, they do know breaking rhythm or gait, hurried/uneven, etc. And they can see if you can ride a circle or land on X. That is unchanged from gait to gait. Can you maintain rhythm/tempo and ride a corner, yes or no. Then, for those scores- the gait doesn't matter.

If someone decides to trot their ASB, then they ride a regular USDF test, that one is easy to answer.

As for people watching us or not watching our tests vs other's rides...I can't say that I saw the huddled masses shunning us, not at all. My horse is a flashy color with silly face markings and many people have gone out of their way to compliment him, or watch our ride and ask about the breed or the gaits afterward, approaching me or my trainer to say that is so cool, I didn't know you could do this with a gaited horse! My experience has just been quite nice and welcoming thus far. I was quite blessed to get some impromptu feedback from a rather fancy dressage trainer who loved loved loved my horse's free walk and medium walk, and the canter he's developing. She didn't have much to say about his soft gaits, but for the areas she did understand, she was most gracious about sharing suggestions and ideas for improving him.

So far, so good.

leilatigress
Jul. 15, 2010, 01:16 PM
There is a TWH at the barn I ride at that does compete in normal Dressage up to 2nd level if I am not mistaken and Jumps at the local shows. I have no idea if he competes at the recognized shows but I do know he ribbons just as nicely as the non-gaited horses. There is an ASB in the barn as well but she is far past her competition days though she was a saddle seat champion in her prime. You can in essence do dressage with any breed of horse and collection can be taught to almost any horse. Dressage is just a series of movements you put your horse through, now how well said horse performs them is different.

SCM1959
Jul. 22, 2010, 11:26 AM
I have not read this entire thread, but did notice someone posting that they have not registered their TWH because they do not want to give any money or support to the TWHBEA .

I have a TWH and I ride regularly with a friend who has had TWHs for years. He told me this morning that he gave up his membership with the TWHBEA years ago due to not wanting to support their agenda. He now has his horses registered with the NWHA. He says there was actually a lawsuit between the two organizations because the TWHBEA did not want the NWHA to be allowed to register horses. The NWHA won, and they are fully accredited and are allowed to register walking horses.

Just thought I would pass this along. My TWH is not registered, although I have the paperwork. I did not know there was another organization that could register him, either. I am going to send his paperwork in to the NWHA.

SCM1959

JollyBadger
Jul. 22, 2010, 12:33 PM
Just thought I would pass this along. My TWH is not registered, although I have the paperwork. I did not know there was another organization that could register him, either. I am going to send his paperwork in to the NWHA.

SCM1959

My TWH is registered with both - he was already registered with the TWHBEA at the time I bought him, and a year or so ago I also registered him with the NWHA.

Of course, I haven't done much of anything with either registry because I'm not into showing or competition, but the NWHA is a nice alternative.