question about color of my Holsteiner

[redhorse5]

I have a question about my Holsteiner. He is 15 and flea bitten grey. His sire Acobat II was a bay and according to his papers, his mother Sabine was also a bay. His grandsire was Athlet Z, a grey. My horse's paper say that he is braun. When I got him he was 5 and a very dark grey with small areas of brown which are now his flea bitten spots.

Why did they say that he was braun (bay)? Is that because he looked bay at birth. He always had strong black points until several years ago when he turned completely grey.

[paintjumper]

something is wrong with your papers or your horse. The "G" or grey gene is dominant and MUST be inherited from one or both parents for the resulting foal to be grey. A non grey horse is "gg". You need to start digging as you have a mystery here!!
Maybe the mare was a grey and they just did not know it, ie she was very young when she had your foal. If you know for a fact the stallion was a bay then you have to do your digging first with the mare......if she is indeed a bay (would be great to SEE her) then there is a mixup. Maybe a grey stud colt in the pasture next to the mares......it's been known to happen before!!! Actually there is a bit of controversy with one of the well known Holsteiner stallions and the possibility that his daddy is actually a young stallion that does not get the credit for being his daddy......I can't remember, maybe it was Capitol?? So it can happen.

[paintjumper]

It was Corporal, Capitano, and Grand Vikar. Similiar situation to yours, a homozygous grey foal from a bay daddy........not happening. Grand Vikar was a 2 year old GREY colt that jumped the fence and bred the mare (witnessed supposedly) but he did not get credit for the foal on paper. I have never looked, I wonder if Grand Vikar had any other babies that jumped the moon? Holsteiner breeders, are there any Grand Vikar(s) in pedigrees?

[redhorse5]

Interestingly, his uncle Acobat I is a grey and my horse looks exactly like him. Is is possible that someone made a mistake by a typo or is that really not possible?

[redhorse5]

http://picasaweb.google.com/sallygreyhorse/HolsteinerGelding?authkey=Gv1sRgCLexnIrh4IzfoQE#52 38122811224484834

Ok, Here is a picture of him.

[paintjumper]

But at least one of his parents is grey. Do you know the mare, personally?

[redhorse5]

No, I never saw his parents. I imported him as a 5 year old.

[redhorse5]

He is branded and the sire of the mare is Fridericus who is stated to be braun and her dam is Lueteutia who was also brown. Wow, mystery.

[RyTimMick]

He was just mistakenly labled braun before he grayed out. Not a big deal. I happens.

Tim

[paintjumper]

Tim, If I understand correctly, BOTH his parents are bay/brown.....and he is grey....that can't happen. What I was wondering is.....was the mare bay/brown and later turned grey?? But this owner does not know the mare, just what is on the papers.

[alexandra]

In germany the papers are issued as foals and the mares registered as three year olds. In any case where there is a knowingly grey involved the papers show "Kann Schimmel werden" means can turn grey.
I guess the mare was just put into the marebook with not showing the grey at that time.
No big deal and as he is a gelding, well. You like him - so what.

[alexandra]

P.S. if you really want to know I would have one idea - send me the lifenumber of dam and granddam from the papers.

[RiddleMeThis]

Tim, If I understand correctly, BOTH his parents are bay/brown.....and he is grey....that can't happen. What I was wondering is.....was the mare bay/brown and later turned grey??
If the pedigree IS correct, then the mare turned gray and it wasn't recorded on her papers. It happens a lot overall.

[RyTimMick]

Tim, If I understand correctly, BOTH his parents are bay/brown.....and he is grey....that can't happen. What I was wondering is.....was the mare bay/brown and later turned grey?? But this owner does not know the mare, just what is on the papers.


I agree with your premise. If the mother was a slow greying horse, the same mistake could have happened with her. They tend to say what they are the day they are inspected. That is why stallions height stays what is was the day they were inspected at 2.5 years old.

Tim

[arizonard]

The OP also states that the mare`s sire and dam are listed as brown. I don`t think she could have been slow to grey if she has two brown parents as well! Very strange!

[RiddleMeThis]

The OP also states that the mare`s sire and dam are listed as brown. I don`t think she could have been slow to grey if she has two brown parents as well! Very strange!

One of his parents was misregistered. He has a grandsire who is gray.

[RyTimMick]

It was Corporal, Capitano, and Grand Vikar. Similiar situation to yours, a homozygous grey foal from a bay daddy........not happening. Grand Vikar was a 2 year old GREY colt that jumped the fence and bred the mare (witnessed supposedly) but he did not get credit for the foal on paper. I have never looked, I wonder if Grand Vikar had any other babies that jumped the moon? Holsteiner breeders, are there any Grand Vikar(s) in pedigrees?

I had dinner with Harm Thormahlen and his wife this past year in Germany. He told us about the story of Capitano and Grand Vikar. A worker who lived on the farm had witnessed the breeding. Capitano's color confirms it. I think he went off into sport and was gelded because he wasn't approved. I could be mistaken, but I think this is what I heard. The whole account has been published. The Stutenstamme online version reflects this "Possible" history.

Tim


Tim

[nightsong]

Why did they say that he was braun (bay)? Is that because he looked bay at birth. He always had strong black points until several years ago when he turned completely grey.

You do realize that grey horses are born regular colors and then turn grey, like people are blond, brunette or redhead then can turn grey.

[redhorse5]

I do understand that horses turn grey after they get a bit older.

My point is that Acobat II, who is listed as his sire is a bay. He clearly did not turn grey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGSQAJW05zk

My horses' dam, Sabine is listed as a braun and on the papers never had a grey in her line anywhere.

Now on the other hand my horses' sire has a brother with exactly the same sire and dam named Acobat I who is a grey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Txfo5XKWo&NR=1

I think what had to happen is that the papers are wrong and the correct sire has to be Acobat I. It had to just be a typo.
Does that make sense? My horse really looks like Acobat I as well.