Super base narrow mare... Which stallion for her?

[Donna Belcher]

Actually I have two base narrow mares, and both wing... one to the point of interfering.

It seems like many of the stallions anymore are very narrow (think Sandro Hit) and/or base narrow and/or wing to varying degrees.

What big moving stallions are out there that don't wing (or paddle for that matter)? Stallions that are straight/correct, have some width to them and have a prepotency toward overcoming mares that are base narrow and wing? A longer leg would be an added bonus!

Any suggestions?

The one mare is older (16) and has not had a foal in 8 years! so fresh cooled is preferrred. She is a Wuemmestern out of a Mozart dam. 16.2 hands (due to a high wither). Overall a very nice mare.

I prefer bays or blacks but won't rule out a great chestnut stallion.

[Bayhawk]

Actually I have two base narrow mares, and both wing... one to the point of interfering.

It seems like many of the stallions anymore are very narrow (think Sandro Hit) and/or base narrow and/or wing to varying degrees.

What big moving stallions are out there that don't wing (or paddle for that matter)? Stallions that are straight/correct, have some width to them and have a prepotency toward overcoming mares that are base narrow and wing? A longer leg would be an added bonus!

Any suggestions?

The one mare is older (16) and has not had a foal in 8 years! so fresh cooled is preferrred. She is a Wuemmestern out of a Mozart dam. 16.2 hands (due to a high wither). Overall a very nice mare.

I prefer bays or blacks but won't rule out a great chestnut stallion.

Get a mare that isn't base narrow and doesn't wing and breed her.

[J-Lu]

Very many.

Are you in NC? What is the breeding of the younger mare?

Do you have pictures/videos of your mares? Performance records?

[dr j]

Get a mare that isn't base narrow and doesn't wing and breed her.


Not to be harsh but that is great advice. Why start with having to overcome major issues? Breeding is a risky/heartbreaking enough without starting with a couple of negatives already.

Unless these mares are stellar - and have performed at a really high level i.e. have a performance record the renders their conformational issues less important, I would recommend taking the money you would pay in stud fees/vet expenses this year and buy a nice mare. It's a buyer's market!

[siegi b.]

I agree with everybody else.... You have definitely stacked the deck against yourself with a 16-year old mare that hasn't had a foal in 8 years, is base narrow to the point of interfering, and has short front legs.

Why would you even consider breeding her? You could get many 16-year old, truly well-bred mares with decent conformation for next to nothing these days.

[Bayhawk]

I am always amazed at the availabilty of mares with bad conformation but PERFECT womb's !

We have a mare here that has her ability to perform interrupted by two major conformation flaws and we want to breed her ? Why ? Why ? Why ? Get educated people !

[Donna Belcher]

Wow! Not very helpful responses. I have been breeding for awhile now and am quite picky about my mares. As I stated above this mare is very nice and is well bred. She has produced an outstanding Diamont mare. This mare scored well at her Hanoverion inspections. She is not a piece of trash. I will have to dig out her papers to give you an exact score.

If someone out there has a perfect mare ... than please send me a picture... as I have yet to see one.

This mare is big bodied, extremely elastic, gorgeous neck, very ridable, has pretty correct legs, (slight toe out right front), great hooves and has a beautiful head with a big kind eye. Yeah she could move straighter, yeah a lower wither and longer leg would be nice but overall a nice mare!! She is still perfectly sound at age 16.

Now if you know of any stallions that don't wing and aren't base narrow... THAT would be helpful.

Those that have emailed me privately... thank you. I will look at all the stallions suggested!

[Bayhawk]

Wow! Not very helpful responses. I have been breeding for awhile now and am quite picky about my mares. As I stated above this mare is very nice and is well bred. She has produced an outstanding Diamont mare. This mare scored well at her Hanoverion inspections. She is not a piece of trash. I will have to dig out her papers to give you an exact score.

If someone out there has a perfect mare ... than please send me a picture... as I have yet to see one.

This mare is big bodied, extremely elastic, gorgeous neck, very ridable, has pretty correct legs, (slight toe out right front), great hooves and has a beautiful head with a big kind eye. Yeah she could move straighter, yeah a lower wither and longer leg would be nice but overall a nice mare!! She is still perfectly sound at age 16.

Now if you know of any stallions that don't wing and aren't base narrow... THAT would be helpful.

Those that have emailed me privately... thank you. I will look at all the stallions suggested!

Obviously not very picky. I would never breed a mare like this. Base narrow is one thing.....winging another.......but the two in combination that are producing interference in the gaits ? Ludicrous !

You say your mare has good legs ? Hogwash ! If she had good legs she wouldn't have these issues.

You say you've been breeding for a while ? I say you need more education !

Folks wonder why buyers continue to flock to Europe.

[Donna Belcher]

Ok found a picture of her. She is about to turn 16 and is in pasture condition but it will give you an idea.

http://s988.photobucket.com/albums/af7/donnabelcher/?action=view&current=FrannyConfo9-17-09.jpg&newest=1

Yes normally I wouldn't purchase an older mare that hasn't been bred in "forever", but I really liked her.

[Coppers mom]

While she is a very pretty girl, she has a lot of issues that, should her foals inherit even one of them, will greatly reduce their value.

If she was just base narrow, or just toed out, or just interfered when she moved, or just winged, maybe. But all those together add for some pretty crappy chances at getting something that won't have at least one of the same faults.

[ne1]

not to jump in on 'beating donna up', but if you're going to put all that it takes into producing a foal, the costs from a good mare are exactly the same as those to produce from a flawed mare.

the trouble here is the 'pet mentality' that pervades much of the thinking around breeding this side of the pond, whereas our european counterparts have much more of a 'quality control', less sentimental outlook on horse breeding, and even then still cannot always make a good foal or a good horse.

i have never heard a stallion described as being able to improve base-width. you have to be very careful just exactly how much you really expect a stallion to improve for you.

it is good that you are honest in your appraisal of the mare. but what you describe should be sending up red flags that say 'don't breed me'.

even amateur breeders here should typically be much more vigilant in selecting a mare to be bred. far too often its the one that broke down or was too difficult to make work for whatever reason.

your attachment to your mare is not the overriding concern of this audience... mostly what folks on here offer their opinion for is to help with better breeding. food for thought.....

[Donna Belcher]

Went and looked at her scores from the Hanoverian society. She scored an 8 on her foreleg and 7 on her hindleg.

I can't read the signature of the two inspecteurs that great but it looks like Judith Mazzueen?? and Judith Ehlem??? The inspection was at Home Again Farm on July 15th, 1998.

While I don't know these inspecteurs I will assume they knew what they were doing. I personally wouldn't have given the mare an 8 on her foreleg but then again she was four when she was inspected and I didn't buy her till she was 15, almost 16 years old.

For those who can't believe she has straight legs, a major reason she moves the way she does is due to unbalanced feet. My farrier said a lifetime of improper farrier work has caused much of the "problems" seen in her gaits. She is a lovely hunter mover. Long and low with good elasticity.

However her Diamont daughter is also a bit base narrow and does toe out slightly both front. She also had EXTREMELY unbalanced feet when she came in. She was 8 years old and had never been seperated from mom. One can assume the same farrier did both.

So back to the original question.... what big moving stallions out there don't wing and aren't base narrow? Maybe she won't produce that... but why take the chance? I AM a responsible breeder and want to try and not exacerbate any problems that this mare might have a propensity to throw.

[Bayhawk]

I'm not trying to beat Donna up. What I am trying to do is be as frank as possible. This is an all too common theme here with too many mares being bred that should never be.

Where is the strive for excellence ? Where is even the common sense ? Would I ever buy or send a client of mine to buy from this mare ? No !

Knowing what you don't know is paramount in horse breeding. What we don't know and if my memory serves me correct , is that we don't have breeding statitistics or breeding value data columns that pertain to stallions that improve base narrow and winging traits in mares. Why don't we have this data ? I summize that it is because the Europeans generally don't breed mares with these kinds of fatal flaws.

I deal with the top breeders of Holstein and am very intimate with their entire mare herds. No breeder that I know in Holstein is breeding with a mare even remotely close to the described flaws of this one. Why would they ?

[Bayhawk]

Went and looked at her scores from the Hanoverian society. She scored an 8 on her foreleg and 7 on her hindleg.

I can't read the signature of the two inspecteurs that great but it looks like Judith Mazzueen?? and Judith Ehlem??? The inspection was at Home Again Farm on July 15th, 1998.

While I don't know these inspecteurs I will assume they knew what they were doing. I personally wouldn't have given the mare an 8 on her foreleg but then again she was four when she was inspected and I didn't buy her till she was 15, almost 16 years old.

For those who can't believe she has straight legs, a major reason she moves the way she does is due to unbalanced feet. My farrier said a lifetime of improper farrier work has caused much of the "problems" seen in her gaits. She is a lovely hunter mover. Long and low with good elasticity.

However her Diamont daughter is also a bit base narrow and does toe out slightly both front. She also had EXTREMELY unbalanced feet when she came in. She was 8 years old and had never been seperated from mom. One can assume the same farrier did both.

So back to the original question.... what big moving stallions out there don't wing and aren't base narrow? Maybe she won't produce that... but why take the chance? I AM a responsible breeder and want to try and not exacerbate any problems that this mare might have a propensity to throw.

"Maybe she won't produce that" ? You just admitted that she has already thrown these same characteristics on her daughter. How much more evidence do you need ?

I'm sorry, but at this point Donna.......you appear just to be inseminating mares instead of breeding them.

[kookicat]

I agree with everyone else who says not to breed her. She's a pretty girl, but not what I think of as broodmare quality. What's that saying? Breed the best, and ride the rest?

[Bayhawk]

I agree with everyone else who says not to breed her. She's a pretty girl, but not what I think of as broodmare quality. What's that saying? Breed the best, and ride the rest?

Or.....another saying is that there's a difference in a sporthorse and a breeding horse.
the ultimate goal is to get both in one animal.

[Jane Honda]

I think people should spay mares that aren't broodmare quality just like the majority of the educated population of horse breeders held the colts that aren't stallion quality.


She's a nice looking mare, but I don't see broodmare quality, especially with the conformation issues stated in the original post.

[citydog]

I have been breeding for awhile now and am quite picky about my mares.

Perhaps you are working with a different definition of "picky" than most would hope for from a responsible (and successful) breeder.

Why breed a "super" base narrow mare (let alone two)? Winging? Interference? Already thrown a base narrow foal? There are plenty of well-bred mares that don't start off with such major flaws. Those are the ones who should maybe be bred.

"Breed the best to the best" is sound advice. Breeding is such a crapshoot *anyway*, it's in the breeders' (and the horses'!!!) best interest to do everything to stack the odds to their favor.

[Oakstable]

The mare was presented to a respectable jury.

Could her problems come on due to age and bad farrier work?

Same with the daughter. Same farrier.

Unbalanced feet can raise havoc.

[Bayhawk]

The mare was presented to a respectable jury.

Could her problems come on due to age and bad farrier work?

Same with the daughter. Same farrier.

Unbalanced feet can raise havoc.

"Super base narrow" has nothing to do with feet. Pigeon toed horses can give the false impression of the horse being base narrow due to the fact of both feet coming towards each other giving that impression.

Inward angulation of the legs from the shoulder elbow connection down to the feet creates base narrow.

Look at some yearlings. They appear to be base narrow until their shoulders open closer to maturation ,then they are normal.

[RyTimMick]

Feet will grow to compensate for the structure, or lack of good structure above it. As we would not assume that Diamont didn't create the base narrow situation on her foal, we know it came from her. This is not something you ask a stallion to fix. I am sorry that you just purchased this mare and her foal and now feel you need to breed her, but the very question posed demonstrates your poor choice in mares. "Extremely base narrow mare with Extremely base narrow filly" Any flaws that are discribed as Extreme should be warning flags, and you need a new ferrier if they told you she was base narrow due to lack of balancing. The feet are flaring because she is base narrow. You obviously saw her filly before you purchased her, why would you think she wouldn't create this problem. The very fact that she does is reason not to breed her. Your picture doesn't help, because it is not of her face on to see the base narrow. It is safe to say there is a difference between not perfect and not right! I would say by the sounds of it your mare is neither. She already has one "Imperfect" filly on the ground, why make another?

Tim

[KSAQHA]

Not trying to add insult to injury, but I would be just as concerned about the hind end of this mare...or lack thereof. While she does have a decent head and pretty eye, I see a short, steepish hip, lack of muscling (yes, could be partly due to pasture condition), and she appears to be camped out - where's the power? Are you breeding for jumping or other? On top of her front-end issues, I would really reconsider breeding her at all. Sorry...JMHO.

[EqTrainer]

Base narrow.

You can have a base narrow horse who moves perfectly straight - in fact, a lot of base narrow horses are beautiful, correct movers.

If I had a base narrow horse who interfered.. well, that would be a deal-breaker as far as breeding goes. Regarding inspection scores - I have seen some seriously craptastic horses with really good inspection scores. Who knows what is going on there? Payolla? Just drinks and dinner? A hangover? No one really cares? Inspection scores don't mean much IMO, particularly when it comes to conformation. Especially when I have heard farriers talk about getting foals "ready for inspection" ie: trimming them to make their legs look straight and/or to make them move straight.

[Oakstable]

The OP wrote

Super mare

Base Narrow

The way she strung the words together made it sound like the mare is "super base narrow."

It can be read a different way.

[Donna Belcher]

This is the last time I try to defend myself. The Hanoverian inspecteurs scored her two tenths of a point from "premium" and it was relayed to me she didn't score premium because her movement was not animated enough (ie too huntery). She scored an 8 and a 7 on her legs. Not 10's... but how many tens are in your barn? She was FOUR years old, not a foal when she was inspected. While I have very little experience with the Hanoverian inspections and how they score, I do know an 8 from the GOV is pretty darn close to perfection! I had a 7.33 mare I just culled over this one. This mare is much nicer IMO!

I (apparently) dare say this mare is very nice. Am I extremely critical? Yes. Perhaps I should have stated that from the beginning. Do I think most of her problems stem from poor farrier work... YES! But she definitely has the propensity for having these faults. That is obvious... although I don't know if Diamont did as well. Her foal, despite having coronet bands that were an inch different from inside to outside, STILL is only slightly base narrow and only slightly wings, and yes she is slightly toed out (how could she not?). To me that is incredible. Just think if she had had corrective farrier work and a balanced foot her whole life? Maybe a perfect 10? No, of course not. The mare and filly are both sound. That says alot for them both!

If this mare produces a sub-standard foal (with faults that aren't man made). Rest assured she will be culled so fast she won't know what hit her. I love my mares but I have zero "pet" sentimentality toward any of them. If, on the other hand, she produces another foal like her Diamont filly... I will consider myself lucky.

I give up. Go to Europe. The mares (and stallions) are perfect there.

Here is the mare... clearly winging. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0HH80p6QfU&feature=channel

Here is a movement video of the mare... http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=buholzoo#p/u/4/KoeEuUVt8pg ....yes she counter canters in in but I have never seen her do it here... she actually has lovely lead changes. Her canter is significantly nicer now that her feet are more balanced.

Here is the daughter... 90% recuperated from a front foot abscess
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fauC4uKQVX8&feature=channel

[ASBJumper]

To the OP -

I bred my heart horse, my first horse and ex-Jumper mare, and got a filly. Would I have absolutely LOVED to breed this filly to have a second-generation homebred? You bet! I love EVERYTHING about the filly, and I too feel she is a super mare. Except - she toes out. Noticeably. She has never, ever interfered in any way, never had splints or anything.
I could've bred her anyway, but I made the (extremely difficult) decision not to. I can promise you I am WAY more attached to this girl than you are to yours - I was there when she was born, I helped deliver her. I raised her, backed her and trained her myself. She's an athletic, catty jumper, a very cute mover and has an incredible temperament.
But I won't do it. Heck - I don't even know if she'd pass those legs on, and I am choosing not to breed her! Whereas you KNOW this mare passes on this flaw and you STILL want to breed her again??!

And let's recap - she's base narrow, she interferes AND she toes out...... :eek: Wow, just wow.

Enjoy her, give her pats and treats, maybe lease her out to a therapeutic riding centre or retire her somewhere... but please don't breed her.

I too have seen blatantly crooked horses pass inspections and people turning a blind eye. So I concur with the poster who said inspections scores are to be taken with a grain of salt. :no:

[Oakstable]

Donna,
Ask the moderator to lock this thread.
You don't need any more posters piling on you.

You've been a breeder and a horse person a long time.

We used to talk in the DBNA days.

The problem in this thread began with the headline

"Super base narrow"

And I don't think that's what you meant to say.

[dmalbone]

Donna,
Ask the moderator to lock this thread.
You don't need any more posters piling on you.



I just lurk on this forum to learn and find it really interesting, but I don't consider this post "piling on you". As far as locking the thread... it's not necessarily a valid reason for the mods to lock it because you don't like the answers. I'm sure a lot of people post things they end up regretting, but that's the wonderful world wide web... I believe somewhere in the terms of agreement is says SOMETHING to the effect of "once it's there it's there!"

[ne1]

yep.... she's known to be base narrow; she throws base narrow..... its still all the farrier's fault and you're picky enough that you want to breed her.

i agree.... this story needs locking up so folks can move on.

[JB]

She looks pretty typical of Wummestern kids (in the front legs), IME, and not something I would want to perpetuate.

[grayfox]

Jeez, you guys are unbelievably harsh to the OP. Maybe you all would like to post pictures of your mares. I would love to see what everyone thought of their conformation and potential. The Hanoverian judges gave her good scores, she looks like a nice mare. No horse is perfect and every horse has things to improve, I know I don't own a perfect horse.

[Coppers mom]

Jeez, you guys are unbelievably harsh to the OP. Maybe you all would like to post pictures of your mares. I would love to see what everyone thought of their conformation and potential. The Hanoverian judges gave her good scores, she looks like a nice mare. No horse is perfect and every horse has things to improve, I know I don't own a perfect horse.

True, no one owns a perfect horse, but when you're trying to produce one, it's best not to start out trying to overcome multiple, quite major faults.

And I have to agree with some of those who say inspection scores don't always reflect the quality of a horse. One of the sale horses that came through was some sort of Premium, didn't score below an 8 and got several 9's during her inspection. Two years later after being imported and brought to us, all I could do was wonder what they were thinking. The mare wasn't bad in any way, but nothing special, IMO. Pretty average mover, very narrow, very long back, and with what I would have considered an average at best hip. Another one of the breeder's horses was gelded based on his inspection scores, and I would have considered him much, much nicer than the mare.

[Dressage_Diva333]

Jeez, you guys are unbelievably harsh to the OP. Maybe you all would like to post pictures of your mares. I would love to see what everyone thought of their conformation and potential. The Hanoverian judges gave her good scores, she looks like a nice mare. No horse is perfect and every horse has things to improve, I know I don't own a perfect horse.

I agree with Jill.

ALL horses have faults. At least Donna is STATING that the mare has imperfections. A lot of times on this board you see someone posting for stallion suggestions on very mediocre mares that they think are just the next best thing. Donna's mare appears to be nicer than many of the mares we've seen posted here. Obviously she's not that horrifying if the Hano judges scored her decently on her legs. I don't really understand why everyone is beating the OP up over this. Obviously they are a breeder of high quality horses (and ponies! :D ).

The OP has asked for stallions that are correct in conformation and movement. There are SO many horses that wing and people don't acknowledge it... many stallions included. Obviously it's a bad trait, that you hope is not passed onto the offspring by using a correct moving stallion. It's always a risk when breeding mares with faults. However, if the OP feels that the positives outweigh the negatives with this mare, then great. It is the OP's choice if she wants to breed the mare.

I also have no perfect horses... there is NO SUCH THING. Yes, I would be wary of breeding a mare with these faults. However, it does depend on the degree of the faults. I have a mare who's a little base narrow. She has not passed that onto her offspring thus far. It's minor with her, but it IS something I took into consideration. I am very picky about horses moving straight, however.

My advice to the OP would be this; When evaluating potential stallions, ask for pictures from the front, hind, and side to evaluate legs. Also ask for video of the stallion trotting straight towards you, and away. Try and evaluate as many offspring as possible. As a stallion owner myself, I certainly try and provide potential clients with as many photos as they want. I'm still working on getting decent videos of the boys, but I've sent out short clips of certain things that have been requested.

[Ladybug Hill]

Wow. Just wow. This mare and her filly are so much nicer than many posted on these boards.

I too have seen stallions promoted here that wing or are crooked legged.

Although I am stickler for straight legs and movement, I read that leg conformation is only 14% inheritable. That means environmental factors must play a large role.

Any of the harsher posters should post their own mares including comments on strengths and weaknesses and see how they measure up. I believe in open discussion but there does seem to be a bit of bashing here.

[Oakstable]

The KWPN stallion Jazz has sickle hocks and toes out.

He is number one in the WBF for producing dressage horses.

A friend of mine has bred to a stallion with Jazz in the pedigree. Her fillies slightly toe out and both are spectular movers and the judges reward them for their movement.

My friend has repeated that breeding.

[Bayhawk]

This is not about bashing nor is it about inspection scores. It is also not about comparing mares as no one has done that, so therefore there is no need for folks to post pics of their own mares.

What this is about is the OP's own admission of these horrific flaws in this mare and the fact that she has already thrown it on her baby ! Thrown it on her baby ! Thrown it on her baby ! She has blatently made excuses for this mare and ignored the advice from some top breeders in this thread as well as the opinion of about 90% of the responders in this thread , tossed it aside and is still requesting info on stallions that don't wing and aren't base narrow ! UNBELIEVABLE !

[DownYonder]

What this is about is the OP's own admission of these horrific flaws in this mare

Horrific flaws? Isn't this a bit of an overreaction? :D

I consider things like parrot mouth, etc. to be "horrific flaws", yet there are people who breed horses with this condition (or horses known to pass it on), and yes, even in the WB world. Furthermore, there are some folks who even have the poor horse's jaws surgically altered to try to mask it. :no:

What about the folks who deliberately breed horses that could produce Lethal White? Or folks who deliberately breed horses that are known carriers of HYPP? Now THOSE are horrific flaws.

Oh, and let's don't forget the approved WB stallion with the VERY crooked front leg - certainly a major, major flaw. Tee-hee, he was in the Hong Kong Olympics, and is the grandsire of an incredibly popular young stallion. :lol:

Or what about all the Andalusians that paddle? I guess the horses with that "horrific flaw" shouldn't be bred, either - including the Andie stallions the Spanish have taken to WEG and the Olympics.

While I certainly believe folks should try to use mares and stallions as correct as possible, I don't think berating the OP is helping. She seems bent on breeding this mare, so it would be far more constructive to help her with stallion choices.

[EqTrainer]

Ok, so what stallion corrects this fault? Reliably?

My perspective is coming from someone who 1) owns a *gelding* who is base narrow 2) trims horses who are base narrow.

I truly wouldn't get too worried about it IF the horse did not interfere. There are lots of conformation faults that do not interfere w/performance. When you say the horse has a conformation fault that DOES cause a problem for it.. then it's a whole 'nother thing IMO.

Just thought I would clarify that.

So.. what stallion can fix this? I am curious.

[RyTimMick]

I think fundementally the reason why so many are hell bent on telling her not to breed the mare is becuase she is throwing a bad flaw. Some on this thread are missing the difference between a breeding animal and a sport horse. A great sport horse can have a flaw if it compensates for it. This mare isn't compensating for her flaws like some athletes do, and she is throwing it on her offspring. Lack of acknowledgement of the source of the problem is why we are so adamant. Arguments that there is a great horse somewhere that had that flaw does not permit us to ignore the flaw. If we were to find this mares mother, she would likely also demonstrate this phenotype. If neither parent had the flaw but she did, that would be different, but I would imagine she has not seen the mother. Base narrow is a structural flaw that does not arise from poor hoof care. Feet don't lie, a horse that grows good feet does so because of good confirmation above. This is clearly not the case here and I hope she realizes this fact. If she wants to take another hack it, then she better be willing to stick with foal when it is born with the same flaw. It is frankly irresponsible in my mind to create another unwanted horse when you know she has a likelyhood to do so. Is there anyone on this board that wants a Base Narrow, paddling, high hoof maintenance horse? Anyone? I as a young breeder I would like to know that my investments in time, sweat, and money will not be overlooked because I am associated with this mentality in NA. I would like to believe we have high standards over here as well, yet I am sadly reading post like this one. "Help me fix my mare" I read once that we should spend at least as much for our mare as we do to breed them, good advice but a low bar indeed. How about actually trying to raise the bar of our own breeding practices in our own breeding community. I expect more of the American breeder, I hope I am not alone. It bares repeating," it is amazing how many poorly conformed mares have perfect wombs" If you would not have searched her out, do not breed her!

Tim

[grayfox]

Horrific flaws? Isn't this a bit of an overreaction? :D

I consider things like parrot mouth, etc. to be "horrific flaws", yet there are people who breed horses with this condition (or horses known to pass it on), and yes, even in the WB world. Furthermore, there are some folks who even have the poor horse's jaws surgically altered to try to mask it. :no:

What about the folks who deliberately breed horses that could produce Lethal White? Or folks who deliberately breed horses that are known carriers of HYPP? Now THOSE are horrific flaws.

Oh, and let's don't forget the approved WB stallion with the VERY crooked front leg - certainly a major, major flaw. Tee-hee, he was in the Hong Kong Olympics, and is the grandsire of an incredibly popular young stallion. :lol:

Or what about all the Andalusians that paddle? I guess the horses with that "horrific flaw" shouldn't be bred, either - including the Andie stallions the Spanish have taken to WEG and the Olympics.

While I certainly believe folks should try to use mares and stallions as correct as possible, I don't think berating the OP is helping. She seems bent on breeding this mare, so it would be far more constructive to help her with stallion choices.
Well said Down Yonder, I was also thinking of that those two very popular sires. I've never heard anyone say don't use him as a breeding stallion because of that Huge fault.

[Arathita]

This is not about bashing nor is it about inspection scores. It is also not about comparing mares as no one has done that, so therefore there is no need for folks to post pics of their own mares.

What this is about is the OP's own admission of these horrific flaws in this mare and the fact that she has already thrown it on her baby ! Thrown it on her baby ! Thrown it on her baby ! She has blatently made excuses for this mare and ignored the advice from some top breeders in this thread as well as the opinion of about 90% of the responders in this thread , tossed it aside and is still requesting info on stallions that don't wing and aren't base narrow ! UNBELIEVABLE !

So OP does not agree with the advice of 3 Holsteiner breeders (you, nick, Ry) and Seigi and so she is ignoring you, tossed opinions aside and displaying lunacy? Her mare is base narrow and you call that "horrific"? She defends her decision to breed the mare - a mare you have never seen - because she likes the offspring she has in hand and you call that "blatently [sic] making excuses"? As you say: !unbelievable! As is your attitude towards her on this thread.

I believe that 90% of the messages were negative because no one wanted to post, lest they be categorized as raving lunatic horse inseminators making excuses to breed horrific flaws in their younsters. By you.

[egontoast]

Oakstable, I have to ask.

Do you have some connection with this mare?

[siegi b.]

OK, I'll bite..... here's a mare that I have bred because I thought she was good enough.... not perfect -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2FySj02QOc

:)

[Oakstable]

Oakstable, I have to ask.

Do you have some connection with this mare?

no. none.

but the breeder is not a novice so why treat her like one.

nobody posting has seen this mare.

the AHS jury gave her positive remarks.

I have a friend who is highly critical of her stock and every horse on the planet. she see faults I just don't see. maybe Donna is also overly critical of her mare and the AHS jury got it right.

[JB]

I truly wouldn't get too worried about it IF the horse did not interfere.


Actually I have two base narrow mares, and both wing... one to the point of interfering.


:(

Now, having re-read this, and realizing there are 2 mares involved, which mare is in the video - the one who interferes or the other one?

[TKR]

I sympathize with you, Donna, on some levels. But on the flip side -- it's honestly not fair to the stallion or stallion owner to ask for them to breed a mare with such obvious issues. The stallion generally gets the credit or the blame. The art of breeding is to enhance the breed/registry with better produce for more success in sport or just to realistically hold up. Not a good market at all right now, and with it being so picky, inferior produce have zero market. If you like the mare alot, maybe you could find one with similar bloodlines that is a better quality to breed? I wish you luck, but you might consider just enjoying her as a riding horse/pet and breed with a good conscience with attention to what the purpose of breeding is and should be.
PennyG

[AnotherRound]

Interesting. I agreee with this point. While I am not a breeder, reading about this mare made me think, if I were a stallion owner, I wouldn't want my stallion to produce something out of this mare.

I guess the better question would be "does anyone know any stallions owners who would be willing to breed one of their stallions to this mare?"

[Bayhawk]

After looking at the video and speaking with Donna in PM.......this mare is nowhere near as bad as she described. She was just trying to explain her faults as severe as possible in order for the posters here to have all the needed info in order to make a suggestion.

She knows more education is needed , this is why she posted here to start with. The descriptions need to be worded differently in the future though.

I shouldn't have taken the mares assessment solely on her word. I should have looked at the videos first before commenting.

I still wouldn't breed this mare personally as base narrow and winging are traits I don't want in my mares , but I can see now where some folks may take a chance on trying to improve her.

[JB]

Bayhawk, I must say that was might awesome of you to post that :yes:

[Bayhawk]

Bayhawk, I must say that was might awesome of you to post that :yes:

Thank you !

You and I need to talk as I'm originally from Greensboro ! Where are you and what do you breed ?

rmiller1265@fairpoint.net email me.

[europa]

I have to jump in on this thread because I was recently at a very large and well respected Oldenburg breeder in Berlin and believe me when I say I was utterly amazed at some of the hideous broodies and foals that were there. They had some nice ones but still many were not!! I am very fortunate to have a wonderful base broodie who throws very correct foals but still I was really shocked... so Bayhawk I am curious as to where all these perfect Holsteiners are! I find it really craptastically rude the way you are trashing her broodmare. There are many more tactful ways to constructively discuss her mare with her without hiding behind a computer. I try and remember to act the same way whether I am face to face or on the keyboard...it helps immensely. I think civil discourse in this day and age is DEAD.

[Bayhawk]

I have to jump in on this thread because I was recently at a very large and well respected Oldenburg breeder in Berlin and believe me when I say I was utterly amazed at some of the hideous broodies and foals that were there. They had some nice ones but still many were not!! I am very fortunate to have a wonderful base broodie who throws very correct foals but still I was really shocked... so Bayhawk I am curious as to where all these perfect Holsteiners are! I find it really craptastically rude the way you are trashing her broodmare. There are many more tactful ways to constructively discuss her mare with her without hiding behind a computer. I try and remember to act the same way whether I am face to face or on the keyboard...it helps immensely. I think civil discourse in this day and age is DEAD.

The good Holsteiner mares that I speak of are in Holstein , not Oldenburg.

If you re-read you will see that I never trashed her broodmare , only the op's self described flaws and intentions of breeding her own broodmare.

I NEVER hide behind a keyboard. Folks on this forum know me and I will always and gladly extend my opinion equally the same in person or on the web.

Have a good day !

[Donna Belcher]

Bayhawk,

THANK YOU! That took guts!

Yes I will agree with you 100%... Had this mare not had such an exceptional filly... I would never consider it. But her filly is not only amateur friendly but is a hack winning, talented over fences little (16.3+h) super star. Long legged and quite attractive to boot! I wouldn't mind a barn full of them!

I will be sure to post the resulting foal (front, back, side and many other!) pics once it is born for all to critique! Video too!

BTW: I PICK MY MARES APART when I talk to a stallion owner... as I want them to be honest with me and allow me to choose the best match for my mares and their stallions. I refuse to breed to a stallion when the owner tells me the horse is 100% perfect. Now that is Hogwash! Not even my own stallion was perfect! :-) Here I go... out of the pot and into the frying pan!

Donna

[Go Fish]

I've seen a lot of Diamonts out of a wide variety of mares. Base narrow is not a fault I've seen on any of them. Just sayin'...

[Donella]

I am usually the first to think " What the hell is he/she thinking!" when some mares are posted on this board and half the time many of the posters here have no problems suggesting stallions.

Honestly, this mare is much nicer than a good 90 percent of the mares that have been posted on this board ( not that that is saying tonnes).However, she received above a 7 and 7 and 8 for her limbs and correctness by the Hano inspectors. My guess is that the OP is just exagerating in regards to the legs because if very qualified people looked at her and liked her, it is likely true that she is a decent mare.