Horses and Dark Chocolate... anybody fed it?

[SpecialEffects]

Recently I've become involved with selling 'healthy chocolate'. In terms of what it is, it's not in the same category as commercial candy bars... it's a major antioxidant, has anti-inflammitory properties, used for heart health.... you get the idea. It's more comparable to a horse suppliment than a horse treat... if we're talking feeding it to horses (and that is the question). So with that small little explanation, now we have the very strange emails I'm getting.

I keep getting emails asking if it can be used on horses (sig line on horse boards does that I guess lol). Now I googled but the information given regarding animals covers cats and dogs -horses are not mentioned anywhere that I could find. Also that information covers regular commercial chocolate, not cold processed cacao. A whole different product.

Then, I'm at a training seminar yesterday and I have a guy say that yeah, he knows these QH people that fed some of the power squares to this very old, arthritic horse and while it did not make him 100%, it helped his joints he was able to even trot around again. But ya know.... a test case one one horse doesn't really cut it for me. I asked a few people from the seminar, these are city folks, and they looked at me like I was from another planet. :grin: What else is new eh? ;)

So... on the effects on people I have govn't studies, endorsements from major labs, scientific and medical stats up the ying-yang, but squat on anything for animals, specifically horses.
I don't know if this science is just too new (or too old) that it hasn't gotten to critters yet, but does anybody know of any *proof* good or bad, about feeding unprocessed dark chocolate or cacao/cocoa to horses? Has anybody even tried it themselves? And if so, again good or bad, what was the outcome?

These questions were not what I expected and sure not covered in training :D so I need help!

Thanks :)

[rmh_rider]

Yes, I have fed some, like a small choco candy bar. Seemed to give my horse dia-ree-ha-ha, and a bit of a tummy ache. He showed a little bit of a sign of colic. I lunged him, and then rode him and he was fine. He poo'd it all out or rather it moved out of his system.

Chocolate has caffeine in it, and WILL test in a blood test. You best do some research, and or call a couple vets, or universities for a definite answer.

I may give a choco kiss every now and then, or a stale oreo, but I would not feed it on a regular basis. Might be toxic. Also I wouldn't want to test positive on my horse for an endurance ride. And it will.

I do remember some big TB race winnner tested positive for caffeine after the race. THis was a huge $$$ making race. They had to give back the placement and ALL the money. The *Owner* gave the horse some m&m's before the race.

I won't feed my horse much if any choco in the future. Maybe a tid bit every now and then.

[SpecialEffects]

Chocolate has caffeine in it, and WILL test in a blood test.

No no no ;) someone posted that on another board and then posted the corrected info before I even read it. http://www.xocoatl.org/caffeine.htm

Seems those race horse owners may have been lying about the m&m's and may have been giving the horse caffine in another form.

As far as research - definitely. I'd just like to be able to point people to research (if it's out there) as opposed to saying 'huh, no idea'. And COTH people are usually a treasure of info and links. :yes:

[Ghazzu]

Theobromine might not *be* caffeine, but

a) it is a closely related phytochemical--both are methylxanthines.
b) it is a stimulant
c) it will test, and is prohibited under USEF rules.

[Peggy]

Theobromine might not *be* caffeine, but

a) it is a closely related phytochemical--both are methylxanthines.
b) it is a stimulant
c) it will test, and is prohibited under USEF rules.
Different by exactly one methyl group.

And theobromine doesn't look like something you'd want to feed to horses: http://www.phytochemicals.info/phytochemicals/theobromine.php From link: "Although theobromine does not cause harmful effects with humans, it is highly toxic to some domestic animals, including dogs and horses. With the animals, theobromine can lead to cardiac arrhythmias and seizures."

[Kareen]

I had posted a similar question here a while ago and have recently become involved in the same product.
I've done a ton of on line research and have talked to a Cardiologist in Aachen who was part of one study relating to Dark chocolate and its effect in type II Diabetes.
The benefits of Dark chocolate are widely known by now and while I would like to read more research about this particular product (given the company claims for the products to be doing more than any other form of chocolate) I must say I am pleased a lot with my and my family's personal experiences consuming it.

As far as horses go I agree with the person who said it would be too expensive to use on horses but then some of the state of the art medication we use in equine or pet practice is ridiculously costly as well.

As far as the Theobromine toxicity it appears to be subject to a wide range of biovariation as many dog owners will tell you their dogs haven't had any problems after consuming massive amounts of chocolate and as far as horses go we all know that anything can be toxic if the dose is high enough and it would require a looot of chocolate-ingestion (even if it is 70% chocolate) to reach levels that can reasonably be expected to cause adverse effects in the horse don't you think?
I mean you wouldn't go ahead and add a scoop of Bute to a horse's diet either yet in the right dose and with the proper indication it has been one of the most widely and successfully used substances within equine practice...

[Peggy]

Different kinds of chocolate have different amounts of theobromine. Milk chocolate has less than dark chocolate. Baking chocolate has relatively large amounts, which coupled with the fact that it doesn't taste nasty to dogs, makes it especially bad. So a lot depends on what chocolate your dog eats. My horse Cool ate a number of thin-mint Girl Scout cookies in his lifetime without apparent ill effects, but I figured large animal-relatively small amount of chocolate. But I wouldn't feed it to a dog.

[Ghazzu]

As far as the Theobromine toxicity it appears to be subject to a wide range of biovariation as many dog owners will tell you their dogs haven't had any problems after consuming massive amounts of chocolate

And how many of these dog owners had any idea just how much theobromine was in the chocolate the dogs ate? did they specify the type of choclate consumed?

As the Evil chem Prof points out, many of the "benign" chocolate cases in dogs are a result of consumption of milk chocolate, which has a low concentration of actual chocolate.


BTW, according to the Animal Poison Control Center's folks (who ought to have a handle on such things, there is indeed caffeine in chocolate (http://www.aspcapro.org/animal-poison-control/documents/m-toxbrief_0201.pdf)--just less caffeine than theobromine)


it would require a looot of chocolate-ingestion (even if it is 70% chocolate) to reach levels that can reasonably be expected to cause adverse effects in the horse don't you think?

I'd have to do some research on that--I know better than to do overbroad extraoplations of drug/chemical sensitivities across species lines.

Since I'm kind of stuck on campus with a teaching animal who is under the weather, I might poke around and see what I find, sinc it would be more "fun" than grading exams while I wait to see which way the dog's condition goes.


I mean you wouldn't go ahead and add a scoop of Bute to a horse's diet either yet in the right dose and with the proper indication it has been one of the most widely and successfully used substances within equine practice...

I might well add "a scoop of bute" to a horse's diet, depending on the size of the scoop and the concentration of the drug...

[AKB]

I am interested in finding out more about dark chocolate and horses. Theobromine is a cousin of the old fashioned asthma drug, theophylline. I wonder if chocolate would help horses with airway disease. I also wonder if it would be good for our insulin resistant oldsters. Of course, the amount needed to have beneficial effects might also be toxic. Let us know if you find any good research, Ghazzu.

[deltawave]

The OP's first statement us an indication of how backwards this kind of thing is: find a market, THEN do the research. Modest benefits or no, nobody NEEDS what's in chocolate, healthy or otherwise. It's another in the LONG pantheon of "wonder" substances where "scientific proof!" is breathlessly proclaimed . . . in the marketing materials of a product that is slickly packaged for (usually) a multi-level scheme designed to sell sell sell.

[sk_pacer]

FWIW, it takes very little chocolate to produce a positive for theobromine - chocolate residue left on the hands of a groom who eats a chocolate bar then bridles a horse is about enough.

[Guilherme]

Since none of my horses has ever offered to share their alfalfa with me I've never offered to share my chocolate with them.

Problem solved. ;)

G.

[SpecialEffects]

I am interested in finding out more about dark chocolate and horses. Theobromine is a cousin of the old fashioned asthma drug, theophylline. I wonder if chocolate would help horses with airway disease. I also wonder if it would be good for our insulin resistant oldsters. Of course, the amount needed to have beneficial effects might also be toxic. Let us know if you find any good research, Ghazzu.

Ditto this Ghazzu. :)

I posted this on a Cdn board as well and 99% of the responses on both have been very helpful and interesting. I didn't really get the information I was hoping to get, but I learned enough to decide my response is going to be a simple "check with your veterinarian". There doesn't seem to be any solid proof that it can be done safely even with controlled amounts - unless Ghazzu finds something for us.
Fair enough, that's what I wanted to know. :)

As far as horses go I agree with the person who said it would be too expensive to use on horses but then some of the state of the art medication we use in equine or pet practice is ridiculously costly as well.


The person that said he fed it to the old horse said he fed 4 power squares a day to the horse for about 2 months befoe starting to see results. So really no more expensive than a lot of suppliments we feed.

Very nice to hear your family has had good success with this product. I have as well but I am a sceptic and I have to still convince myself that it's not just mind over matter. But I have lost some weight too (and I haven't even been good lately :no: ) and that's hard to be sceptical about - the scale doesn't lie.... except when I gain. ;) I do feel differences and feel that I am doing something healthy for myself, so that's all that matters. All the best with it.

The OP's first statement us an indication of how backwards this kind of thing is: find a market, THEN do the research.

Huh?? They have done all the research for PEOPLE, I'm the one asking about taking a people product and using it for animals because of questions I've been asked. I'm asking, thinking someone could give me some solid information, stats, studies.... :rolleyes:

Since none of my horses has ever offered to share their alfalfa with me I've never offered to share my chocolate with them.

Problem solved. ;)

G.

:lol::lol::lol: Touche


Thank you to all the others that understood the questions asked, and answered and contributed some helpful and intelligent comments. Very much appreciated and I enjoyed hearing your thoughts!

[merrygoround]

Dark chocolate is a "people only!" treat. Feeding it to animals is dangerous.

[deltawave]

No offense meant to the OP. Sorry I didn't flesh my thoughts out well--I was typing on my iPhone, which does not lend itself to eloquence. :)

These "healthy chocolate" products are the latest in a string of health "products" sold in multi-level marketing schemes, and although the products may very well be decent and have modest benefits that are real, I personally find it unappealing (to say the least) that it is touted as "new", is sold in this fashion and that the "abundant research" that is touted (which is really not all that stunning) is done mostly for the purpose of selling product that is not approved, not regulated, and ought to therefore be widely available to anyone who wants it without the crazy markups.

Flavonoids and antioxidants are nothing new, and are found in many, many food products. Polishing them up and calling them new or different is (IMO) disingenuous and a little silly. One can get most of the same sort of "stuff" in fresh blueberries, grapes, or most any nut or berry. But those aren't trendy, like acai or cocoa beans. :)

[SpecialEffects]

I truly did not want to get into the 'people' aspect of this product since this is a horse board but this company has the patent on this 'type' of chocolate and the process to produce it - it cannot be compared to anything else, it is approved by Brunswick Labs and goes through retesting 3 times a year - so the claims are not hocus pocus, they have been scientifically and medically proven, has gone through testing by 17 governments - and been approved - including having all it's claims being approved by Health Canada (obviously the one I'm most familiar with) and in less than 5 years has done 65 million in sales. (Sorry just came out of three days of training seminars :lol: ) No flavonoids and antioxidants are not anything new but when you can put the high numbers into a tasty food that is beneficial to your health - what is the harm in that? Actually it sounds pretty darn good .

So to call it a "scheme" sounds rather flippant to me. No offense meant to you either. :)

But as repeated over again, I was asked about feeding this to horses, I asked if there was any data, haven't been able to find any, so asking people to check elsewhere. Case closed and thanks to those that helped as far as I'm concerned.

[deltawave]

The new signature line is duly noted--a link to a sales site, yes? :)

i'm just not a big fan of MLM programs (is that nicer than "scheme?) for health products. To each their own, though.

[Cherry]

I guess the company will just have to do its own testing of their own product in order to satisfy their consumers that own horses.... :yes:

Relay the information to the company and see how fast they jump on that, Special Effects. :winkgrin:

I know people who feed their dog(s) chocolate, but I'll tell ya what--if I really loved my dog (or horse) I wouldn't do it! ;)

[SpecialEffects]

The new signature line is duly noted--a link to a sales site, yes? :)


Recently I've become involved with selling 'healthy chocolate'.

First line of my post. This was not something I was trying to sneak past everyone for any nefarious reason.

Cherry.... somehow I don't think they'll spend the money for a few wacky horse owners. I was just hoping someone else had. :) But there is still hope with Ghazzu that I'll get my official stats. I agree though, until someone does some testing, I wouldn't want to chance it - at least not on the consistant basis it would need to be done for results.

[deltawave]

I found an abstract on polyphenols and horse cartilage, but that's about it. The polyphenol used in that itty bitty study was from turmeric, not cocoa, but the group of substances is in the broad family of ingredients that's lumped together as the flavonoids.

Even the human studies that are being so prominently emphasized are TINY trials of 12, 20, 50 subjects, etc. Those are very small numbers even by veterinary standards, and to hope that there are equine/animal equivalents that are as compelling (if you can even use that term for tiny trials such as these, I personally would not) is sort of unrealistic.

[foggybok]

Interesting study on M&Ms in horses...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/05/980501082822.htm

and a vending pack of M&Ms has very little chocolate in it...

So for the testing question, you'd likely test positive of drug test if you fed dark chocolate......

[SpecialEffects]

From the one email I received, I believe this was asked for an older arthritic horse, not a horse that's going to be on the track or even showing (I don't think) - others I don't know. The QH guy was definitely commenting on having used the product on an old horse. That's why I was asking if it was "safe" not whether it would or wouldn't test. That would be like someone commenting on something I took... if I tested for something nobody would care if the old nag out back tested positive. :winkgrin:

But since I can't find any studies showing that it is safe for horses, the rest is moot. But that was an interesting read. I wonder if the testing has become more sophisticated in the last 10+ years that they can tell where the caffine comes from, or is it still just if it is present or not?

Thanks!

deltawave... it seems to be helping the arthritis in my hand, does that mean we can now say a test of 16? ;) Thanks for looking.

[foggybok]

I was mostly just quite amused that someone actually did a study feeding horses peanut M&Ms......

As far as toxicity goes, there's not a lot of data other than a few references saying theobromine is toxic in horses (without any data that I can find....)

I think there are other good supplements that have been tested in horses that I would try first......

[deltawave]

The plural of anecdote is not data, but "better" is "better" for any given individual, and if benefit > risk and the cost is acceptable, you're golden. :)

Of course "seems to be" is a tough thing to quantify, especially for more than one person over time, and especially for something as notoriously up and down and vague as "arthritis", which has good and bad periods no matter what one does. This is why studies of tens of thousands are infinitely better than observations of a dozen or so. :)