Need info: what does chromium do to suspected PSSM/EPSM horses?

[manyspots]

This is probably my fault for not catching this sooner... started my gelding on Quiessence at the beginning of January. His weight was great, especially considering its winter and he is a hard keeper. Mid-late January, we suspect PSSM and start diet changes and testing. ONLY diet change is adding oil (2 cups a day) to his beet/alf cube mixture. He gets free choice hay too. Of course, the Quiessence has worked wonders on his movement and I don't even consider taking him off it.

Fast forward to yesterday when I realize he has lost considerable wieght. He's now a low 4 on the scale where he was a 5 before. Haven't wieghed him yet, but I'd say he lost about 100 or so pounds.

If in fact he is PSSM, would the chromium cause him to lose wieght? I have stopped the Quiessence for now and switched him to another mag product after realizing Foxden says specifically it should not be used for these types of horses.

[Dalemma]

I have used chromium once for a horse supspected of having cushings.......she was having bouts of mild laminitis but was not overweight...........I can't remember the reason.....either way it did not help. I will go check my recorders and my vet book and see if I can find anything.

Dalemma

[JB]

If in fact he is PSSM, would the chromium cause him to lose wieght?
It supposedly (!) helps people with weight loss, but I can't imagine the amount found in a serving (or three) of Quiessence would cause a horse to lose 100lb

I have stopped the Quiessence for now and switched him to another mag product after realizing Foxden says specifically it should not be used for these types of horses.
Of course someone who makes a mag supplement helpful to EPSM horses will say not to use another type ;) What product did you switch to?

I'd suspect something else is going on. Not all horses do well on oil - some do better on less fat, but from a non-oil product, such as boss or rice bran. I'd probably go that route.

What made you suspect EPSM?

[Melyni]

The idea that chromium should not be fed to EPSM/PSSM horses is my theory, totally unsupported by any hard evidence I might add.

And others do not agree, For example Dr Valentine says that she thinks that Quiessence does not contain enough chromium to make a difference. She uses Quiessence for a lot of horses with no problems.
Dr Kellon says chromium does not work at all (I disgaree on this one).
Dr Valberg also thinks that chromium is not an issue.

So I stand alone in this, and I'm the one making the supplement!!

But I do say to anyone whose horse is EPSM/PSSM, to go carefully with chromium and IF your horse shows a negative effect stop using it.

If the horse does not show any negative effects then continue on.
YMMV
MW

[fivehorses]

Hah, I just went to a seminar last night on vits and minerals etc.
According to my notes, chromium is helpful for IR horses because it helps with the glucose utilization. Same with magnesium.

[Cherry]

Supposedly chromium helps with the transfer of sugar into the cells (which is needed to maintain cell health and muscling).

On a bottle of the stuff it says it makes the body more sensitive to sugars (so the body uses it better) and that it should be monitored (in humans) because it can have an effect on blood glucose (raises it)....

That's all I know....

Quite often people think their horses are losing weight when, in fact, the horses are losing muscle mass (wasting away) due to a metabolic issue....

Fivehorses--what are "IT" horses????

Not that anyone asked but I personally would not use a lot of oil unless my horse was actually tested and diagnosed with PSSM. Some horses need other things to eat besides hay in order to maintain weight. I think some people just blindly yank their horses off feed without really thinking things through, simply because they read on the Internet that horse feed is bad! "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

[ljc]

I went through a very confusing time with my 10 year-old half TB/half percheron gelding last spring. His symptoms were classic EPSM but the test came up negative. Coincidentally we tested for IR - that came up positive. Decided to focus more on the IR part - changed his diet to lower sugars, etc. but did not address adding fats. Started him on quiessence for the IR. It had the amazing benefit of quieting down an otherwise wacko horse - my guess is the magnesium did it. Fast forward six months. The EPSM symptoms were getting worse and I decided to start him on that diet. I saw on the Foxden website the warning about not giving chromium to EPSM horses so I very sadly gave my extremely large tub of quiessence away and put Oberon on a different magnesium supplement.

The diet apparently did the trick - the additional fats seemed to kick in right away and all the EPSM symptoms are gone. Or maybe it was the absence of chromium. I don't know. But I'm not going to quarrel with success.

So I really can't answer your question specifically! Just giving you my story.

[manyspots]

The significant wieght loss is baffling. And yes, there is a loss of muscle, no doubt, but you can rub your hand across his rib cage and feel them where as before you had to push gently and they were not visible.

The only other thing I did in January was a PP but we had no reaction, issues, and I did not see any worms in his manure. Just did it for good measure and because he had never been done.

I agree, there is a lot of conflicting information on chromium and EPSM/PSSM. FWIW, my guy did show improvement in a few ways within days of starting on oil. And now, his muscles are much softer. I have not seen any evidence of shivers in a few weeks as well. Waiting on a genetic test from U of Minnesota to confirm. If it's negative, may consider muscle biopsy.

JB-Odd tying up episodes not related to work, hitch in stride since he was broke out at 2 y.o. (will be 9), difficulty with wieght, stopped laying down, rock solid muscles, not wanting to go forward (better in the past year since being on a beet based diet), shivers which developed in the past 2 months. He has been out 24/7 for almost two years and absolutely cannot tolerate high NSC, such as sweet feed, oats, corn, molasses, or rice bran. He's a monster on rice bran :eek:.

I switched him to SmartCalm Ultra to keep him on high mag, add B vits, and the calming effect needed to reduce stress and reduce "episodes" for now.

I was considering Omegatin or Carb Guard due to this wieght loss. He is currently on 1 QT (dry, plain, pre-soaking) beet pulp and 1 QT alf cubes (also soaked) twice a day. Plus the 16 oz. oil (canola), extra E/Sel, and free choice hay and he is LOSING! Any insight would be great.

[lizajane09]

Well, I have to agree with anyone else who said that in terms of hard science, the jury's still out on giving chromium to these horses. I can give you my experience though - I have a EPSM/PSSM mare who has been on Quiessence since October, and she is currently eventing at the Intermediate level quite comfortably - no loss of muscle mass, energy, etc. (she is a little quieter around the barn though!). In addition, she's always been a pretty hard keeper, but the addition of the Quiessence to her diet (nothing else changed around that time; she was already on the high-fat diet) didn't seem to result in any weight loss.

[Dalemma]

I went through a very confusing time with my 10 year-old half TB/half percheron gelding last spring. His symptoms were classic EPSM but the test came up negative. Coincidentally we tested for IR - that came up positive. Decided to focus more on the IR part - changed his diet to lower sugars, etc. but did not address adding fats. Started him on quiessence for the IR. It had the amazing benefit of quieting down an otherwise wacko horse - my guess is the magnesium did it. Fast forward six months. The EPSM symptoms were getting worse and I decided to start him on that diet. I saw on the Foxden website the warning about not giving chromium to EPSM horses so I very sadly gave my extremely large tub of quiessence away and put Oberon on a different magnesium supplement.

The diet apparently did the trick - the additional fats seemed to kick in right away and all the EPSM symptoms are gone. Or maybe it was the absence of chromium. I don't know. But I'm not going to quarrel with success.

So I really can't answer your question specifically! Just giving you my story.

Well if the test you ran was blood or hair........it does not necessarily mean your horse does not have EPSM/PSSM that particular test only picks up 80% of the cases............and since you changed his diet which happens to be what is recommended for this disease it is still possible that he has the disease.........you would need to do a muscle biopsy to confirm if he has Type 2.

Dalemma

[fivehorses]

whoops, Cherry. I type too fast sometimes. Meant that to be IR not IT horses.
Or don't you know...those IT horses are the ones that sit at computers all day long! LOL

[ThoroughbredFancy]

Have you checked his selenium/vit E levels?




Also, I have fed both Omegatin and Carb Guard. FWIW, my guy and a few other horses here do well on the Carb Guard. Hold their weight and they're aren't hot on it (well, it is a low NSC grain). So if you really have to introduce something like that it isn't a bad choice.

[manyspots]

We are checking E/Sel levels on the 22nd as part of this guessing game. Doing lyme too, just in case due to our area.

I definitely do not want to add grain, but if I have too good to know there has been success with Omegatin, my first choice.

It's just strange that he is losing, despite all the added fat :no:.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

We are checking E/Sel levels on the 22nd as part of this guessing game. Doing lyme too, just in case due to our area.

I definitely do not want to add grain, but if I have too good to know there has been success with Omegatin, my first choice.

It's just strange that he is losing, despite all the added fat :no:.

It is odd. However, my TB keeps weight on a diet with good quality proteins and fiber. The fat adds a little bit but it's mostly the protein and fiber for him. Or so it seems.

I might have been vague in my post but I liked the Carb Guard. I used the Omegatin but didn't see much for results.

But with the stiffness, muscle hardness and lack of condition I am curious about the selenium test results. I know in MA we're pretty deficient in our soils, and you're not too far.

[manyspots]

Thanks for the clarification!

Not getting much from the vets right now, except diet seems fine. We'll see if removing the chromium helps....