Top Performers "Crossed back on stamm"

[selah]

In the not-too-distant past, a thread drifted into a discussion of a breeding tool, whereby a mare of a strong mareline (stamm, Tail Female Family etc.) is bred to a stallion of the same mareline, in order to accentuate the strengths of that mareline.
The thread can be found here:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242174

One example of this that I have found is Bugatti Hilltop, going back to fill sisters, Paola and Pirola:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bugatti+hilltop

In the aforementioned thread, Bayhawk cites Love Affair:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/love+affair9
(And actually, stallions Farn and Ronald in that same pedigree are from the same stamm, though they are in different positions in the pedigree..)


Though this seems to be an important breeding tool, it doesn't appear to be used as frequently as it might be, certainly not as often as seeing the same male line represented in a pedigree. I was wondering if anyone else has any examples of top performers of any discipline which are products of this method.

[ne1]

this approach is used in holstein and has produced approved stallion sons numerous times. it is less used elsewhere because of a fundamentally different view of the signifigance of the mother. fewer breeders are aware of this practice which enhances and brings forward the impact of some critical 'blue hen' mare placed back in the pedigree more than once.

also it will be much less used than multiple stallions appearing in pedigrees simply because of the volumes of breedings done by stallions vs those done by mares.

when i get time i'll look up a few examples, but one that springs to mind is the holsteiner stallion autobahn. he is from last year's #1 jumping stam globally (holst 776) and is crossed back onto the same through acorado. herr bahlman described him as the best son of acorado despite the horse not being approved by the holsteiner verband for breeding. autobahn is now gelded, has been imported the the usa and is living and being shown in the atlanta area.

[Bayhawk]

In the not-too-distant past, a thread drifted into a discussion of a breeding tool, whereby a mare of a strong mareline (stamm, Tail Female Family etc.) is bred to a stallion of the same mareline, in order to accentuate the strengths of that mareline.
The thread can be found here:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242174

One example of this that I have found is Bugatti Hilltop, going back to fill sisters, Paola and Pirola:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bugatti+hilltop

In the aforementioned thread, Bayhawk cites Love Affair:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/love+affair9
(And actually, stallions Farn and Ronald in that same pedigree are from the same stamm, though they are in different positions in the pedigree..)


Though this seems to be an important breeding tool, it doesn't appear to be used as frequently as it might be, certainly not as often as seeing the same male line represented in a pedigree. I was wondering if anyone else has any examples of top performers of any discipline which are products of this method.

It is used VERY frequently but you have to be knowledgeable to discover it because it always doesn't jump out at you like Love Affair.

Look at the stallion Cicera's Icewater. You will see it was done 4 gens back. His pedigree is Corofino / Corde / Liguster / Colombo / Aldato stamm 474a. Colombo is also from 474a.

The stallion example Nick gives has several crosses back on the stamm from both sides of the pedigree. Autobahns pedigree is Acorado / Lord / Masetto / Ramiro / Colonel stamm 776. The father Acorado is by Acord II / Corrado I / Ramiro / Herscher stamm 776. When Ramiro (776) bred the Herscher mare(776) there was a cross back on the stamm right there.

In the motherline Ramiro (776) bred the Colonel mare who was already 776.

Although they ultimately go back to the same mare , Acorado was from a seperate branch of the stamm as was the Lord mare. By breeding the two together , you consolidate two VERY good motherlines in stamm 776.

Autobahn's 3/4 sister , Waleska, by Acodetto / Lord / Masetto / Ramiro / Colonel stamm 776 was THE best mare at the elite mare show last year. No surprise.......

[Small Spark]

One of the better known instances of this, and of focussing line breeding on one mare in particular is in the stallions from Galten farms (breeders of Abdullah) such as Asher, Apache and others in focussing on the mare Abiza.

[Sakura Hill Farm]

We have practiced this linebreeding in two instances and the results are such that we will repeat it. We have linebred on the Dutch -niki mareline in the instance of Della Joia Bella (http://sakurahillfarm.com/horses.php?HOID=37 and in the instance of Ultra Niki (http://sakurahillfarm.com/horses.php?HOID=77). We believe that the results speak for themselves. While Della Joia Bella was sold upon weaning, we would not hesitate to repeat this cross to produce (hopefully) another filly for our broodmare band.

[back in the saddle]

Is this what you mean: (hypothetical breeding)

Del Piero: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/del+piero2
X
Vari: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/svavari+blume


Where Marschfee and Mascha are full sisters
and Dorfblume is 3/4 sister to Del Piero.

[ne1]

yes, and this is helpful in how obvious it is. often, as reece said, it goes several generations further back; you may have to click back one or two pages further on allbreed to find the mare who has been crossed back upon. obviously the closer up the more distinct the effect of the back cross would be. it is most effective when that mare is a significantly productive, proven and successful individual.

[selah]

I thought it would be relatively easy to find Arabians bred on this principle, as some of their pedigrees appear very "tight" (much line- or in-breeding), but not quite so. I have found one so far...the Polish stallion, Comet, considered to be the most important post-war Polish stallion, according to the blurb on All-Breed. He goes back to an 1859 mare, Gazella I.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/comet2

Interestingly, Comet is in the direct tail male line of IS Orlow, an Arabian stallion just approved by the Hanoverian Verband, which was recently discussed in this forum. Looking at the tail female line of IS Orlow, it also goes back to the same 1859 mare, Gazella I.

The sire and dam of the TB jumper, Bonne Nuit, are from different branches of Tail Female Family Five.

[Waterwitch]

I am not an Arabian expert but have studied Davenports a little just out of interest. I believe the desert bred horses were always bred along female family lines, or "strains". Some Davenport breeders still practice this strategy as they believe it is closest to how the horses were bred at their origin. The desert tribes definitely valued their war mares and female families.

Of course Davenports are more closely inbred anyway due to the limited number of horses left when Charles Craver and other breeders began trying to conserve them, but here is an example of strain breeding on the desert mare Urfah:

Tripoli (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tripoli7)

[selah]

The sire & dam of the TB Lucky Bar, are both tail female family #4.
Lucky Bar, the son of Three Bars, is the sire of Impressive (of QH HYPP fame).

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=IMPRESSIVE6&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Three Bars appears close up in top and bottom of Impressive's pedigree.

[back in the saddle]

How close is too close?

In the example I gave above, Del Piero x Vari (my mare)... is that too close? Or, would another generation away from this one be better?

[CrossWinds81]

What are some of the famous examples of this that are currently affecting our top sporthorses today?

Not famous, but a quite close up example as well is the stallion RD Forever by For Pleasure and out of a sister to For Pleasure's dam