Anyone see 'Horse Torture' Letter in COTH?

[alteringwego]

Feb 5th issue, page 180. To summarize, the author relates mane pulling to water boarding performed by the CIA. The letter was a response to an article in the Jan 22nd issue, page 32 entitled, 'How to Create a Perfectly Pulled Mane.'
Thoughts?

[jetsmom]

I can see where stopping water boarding, and ripping out chunks of the terrorist's hair instead, might be effective, to get info from them... I'd even offer to twitch one if it would help.

Did the person complaining about torturing horses sign their letter with "x" PP Level 2 student???

[Meredith Clark]

I've never had a horse that really minds it, I've seen horses that HATE getting their mane's pulled and the owners find other ways to make them look tidy.

I don't like when people drug or man-handle horses that are super sensitive to mane pulling.. there's just other ways to go about it than that.. it's just hair!

[alteringwego]

I thought I'd re-type for the non-subscribers... (sorry for typos)

Horse Torture?
Wow! What a shock to open the placid cover of a seemingly genteel horse magazine and come upon an illustrated manual of torture methods used by humans to immobilize horses in order to better rip out their manes!
Is the CIA or the U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security aware of this magazine? It might be a good idea to send the article "How to Create a Perfectly Pulled Mane' (Jan 22, p. 32) to them to provide the popular methods that could be used for enhance interrogation of terrorists.
The rationale would be, "Since water boarding of terrorists is deemed as torture, here are some methods that horse lovers use on their beloved horses in order to make them more cooperative while their manes are being ripped out."
Our goal is to clean up the subject (horse or human) by pulling out his/her hair, clump by small clump. Now if a horse can tolerate that, so can a human, right?
If the subject balks at the pain and becomes unruly because of our actions we just clamp a large blanket clip or some other pinching device onto his/her neck. (The action is similar tot he toe and finger screws popularized during the Spanish Inquisition).
If the subject continues to resist the seemingly endless hair extraction, a chain can be run between the upper lip and the upper gum, and an assistant can be used to crank it down onto the gum tissue if the subject moves. If place of that, one could grab the upper lip of the subject, and put a rope, chain, or clamp around it, and the assistant can twist it until the subject "gives."
If there's no assistant available, we can improvise and attach a bungee cord to either side of the head collar and then thread the cord between upper lip and gums. Being elastic, it will exert its own pressure over one of the most pain-sensitive areas of the subject's mouth, and the neat thing is that we can in crease the pain by tightening the bungee, because the pressure will increase as the elastic stretches.
If the CIA doesn't embrace these more "humane" methods for eliciting cooperation (but why shouldn't they, since horse lovers all over the world use them), I'm sure Al-Qaeda would be happy to the receive the horse lover's magazine of tortured techniques.
There are certainly even more ways we humans can think of to torture a horse so we can have it comply with our idea of beauty. However, maybe it would be better for us humans to abolish centuries' old tradition and come up with more humane methods for making our horses appear more beautiful to us.
There are myriad hair products available to tame unruly manes and there are many other braiding or banding techniques that can be applied to thicker manes. More radical yet, what is wrong with the long flowing manes that so attracted us as children to the horses in the first place?
Well, I'm sure that there are many ways to beautify a horse's mane without having to abuse the horse in order to accomplish the feat. And I will admit that being a rather old person, I blindly followed for a while the hand-me-down tradition of pulling horses' manes in order to braid them for shows.
The light finally came on for me, however, when an incident occurred with my horse and the groom who had pulled his mane. The horse, affectionately known around the barn as the PhD, because he is smarter than most humans, was being led out to the pasture by the groom who had just finished pulling his mane (without torture devices I might add). The horse appeared to tolerate the plucking. However, as he was being led out of the barn, he suddenly, and with surgical precision, nabbed a shock of long, blond hair from the groom's head and ripped it out for her. Tit for Tat.
Please know that horses feel pain as well as humans do, if not more so. Why should we continue to torture them for the sake of our vanity? Would it not be better to simply change the vogue?

Sherilyn Allen, VMD
Boyertown, PA

[Jumping_the_moon]

Good heavens, that's taking it a bit too seriously I think. I'm sure PETA hasn't even made the connection. Sheesh.

[dq for life]

Easy to solve problem....scissors!

[Androcles]

Some horses definitely react to mane pulling like it's torture. Mine being one. I used to drug him and such to get it pulled. The hairs that were pulled have grown in white, which I understand indicates follicle damage, so I can see how it must be painful to some degree.

But that letter is nuts, I"m surprised they published it. Equating humans and animals, just for starters.

[deltawave]

I can't believe COTH printed that. Talk about a lot of mental energy expended on a non-issue. :rolleyes:

Anyone remember how it felt to pluck their eyebrows the first few times? And does it still bother you? Sheesh. For a vet, she is not very observant (or maybe she has to leave the barn when someone is making like Torquemada with the pulling comb) because a huge majority of horses don't mind it at all.

[EqTrainer]

I think they can suffer for beauty :lol: actually all of mine like it but I've had some who don't. You learn to get quick and dodge the bites and kicks.

I hate long manes so much that I'd cut them :eek: if I had to. I have a horse here with a "long flowing mane" as is part of his breed standard and it is UGLY. Bleached out, ratty, frizzy and gets in the way when you are working with him. The only horses I have ever seen w/nice long manes live in a stall 24/7, too high a price to pay IMO. Cut it off or pull it out, already!

[lesson junkie]

My Dutch horse wrote that letter under an alias. The TB mare contributed to the sarcasam.

They both require chemical and physical restraint to pull their manes. I simply don't do it.

[ProzacPuppy]

I was at one show, a number of years back, where PETA folks showed up to protest the world of Hunter/Jumpers. They felt it was cruel to make the horses jump, live in such small indoor spaces as stalls, etc.

I had to laugh. Many horses seem to love jumping over things, rider or not. And while stalling a horse at a show up to 22 hours a day is bad alot of those horses go home to wonderful farms with beautiful grassy turnout.

Not to mention the fact that most of the horses we encountered at shows lived better and got better and more doting care than much of the people in America. (And don't say that you can't get "anal" over your horse's slightest limp or stiffness, worry about his nutrition, fight for the best turnout's grazing).

They can handle a little mane pulling. And if not, I agree with scissors.

[asterix]

Actually, it seems really simple to me. Horses are not deceptive (keep in mind I am not including ponies ;)) or passive aggressive. They are very direct.

I have one horse who happily stands dozing while you pull his mane. He also doesn't seem to care about shots and is in general a sturdy soul with a high pain tolerance. I pull his mane without any worry that I might be torturing him.

My old Irish horse ABSOLUTELY hated it. No one within 50 feet of him would doubt this. So, no mane pulling. The solo comb was our friend. It is, after all, cosmetic. I don't see the point in doing something painful for looks if there is another way to get close to the same look..

My big expressive horse would also tell me if he had an issue...but he has no mane, just a few wisps. If I pulled it he'd be bald. Solo comb, again.

I do see the argument that since it is cosmetic, why drug or otherwise coerce a horse who clearly finds it very uncomfortable. I agree with that.
But some do seem genuinely not to mind.

[LauraKY]

My OTTB falls asleep while his mane is being pulled. He must like it. Another doesn't mind the pulling, but hates the back combing. So we use scissors. But he doesn't have a very thick mane.

[DMK]

I can't believe COTH printed that. Talk about a lot of mental energy expended on a non-issue. :rolleyes:

I skimmed through that letter a few days, and all I could imagine was someone in the Chronicle's office opening mail/e-mail and saying "Hey everybody, get a load of this letter!" ... followed by much giggling and then the dangerous suggestion "how about we go ahead and print it?" which was immediately followed by the office pool on how long it take before it became a hotly debated topic over here.

Or that's how it would have played out in almost any office I ever worked in. ;)

[TheOrangeOne]

I can't believe COTH printed that. Talk about a lot of mental energy expended on a non-issue. :rolleyes:

Anyone remember how it felt to pluck their eyebrows the first few times? And does it still bother you? Sheesh. For a vet, she is not very observant (or maybe she has to leave the barn when someone is making like Torquemada with the pulling comb) because a huge majority of horses don't mind it at all.
Eyebrow plucking, hell- how about a bikini wax? We should call the CIA and suggest it as a torture technique. :lol:

[tabula rashah]

While I think pulled manes look stupid for the most part (yeah, I'm a long, flowing mane kinda gal)- I really doubt that it's torture

[Grataan]

What a weirdo. I have no problem sedating a horse that is sensitive to mane pulling. There's nothing wrong with it-little bit to relax them so they're not nervous and little bit to take away any possible pain, it's like a human having sedation dentistry.

[JSwan]

She's into animal communicators so she shouldn't have needed a horse to rip out her hair. She should have been able to use her mental powers or the Vulcan Mind Meld or something.

Animal Communicator - FAIL

[mvp]

Lesson Junky's Dutch horse must have consulted with mine. The DWBs are a union breed who don't like to take crap from management.

However, deals were made and now mine likes having his hair ripped out. Sometimes he scores mints and dedicated scratching near the roots of his mane. You can't get those things just anywhere and any day, so it turns out that pulling is a prelude to better things.

Good thing this gelding is such a hedonist. He'd make a bad terrorist.

[monstrpony]

Hrumph.

I thought it was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

I have to admit, I think the torture-for-beauty thing is a bit overdone. If a horse doesn't mind it, fine; but if they do? Well, there are alternatives. They may not produce a MSG-perfect braid job, but, geez ... sometimes, I think we do go too far in the interest of conformity.

Bear in mind, this comes from one of those fat ladies who keeps horses at home and doesn't even do bridle paths or trim whiskers any more. Not because I'm lazy, I love a good spa day with my boys as much as the next person, but because it really, really ... just isn't necessary. My horses perform just as well fuzzy, but, then, I don't go out and pay megabucks for others to make judgements about their performances any more, either. ;)

[Timex]

Eyebrow plucking, hell- how about a bikini wax? We should call the CIA and suggest it as a torture technique. :lol:


brazilian, of course. LOL

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[dwblover]

Geeze that reader sure got herself worked up over some mane pulling. Sounds like a drama mama to me. I mean I would not pull my horse's mane if he hated it, I'd just use scissors. Some do choose to twitch or lip chain, I personally would not. But I also wouldn't waste my time thinking that those horses are being tortured. Man there are a lot of really passionate horse people who need to direct their attention at something IMPORTANT, like the thousands upon thousands of horses who are neglected. I have worked for a rescue league and had the horror of discovering some of those neglected horses myself. This drama mama reader and others are so passionate they could really be of some use if they would quit barking up the wrong trees! I say to the reader, GO VOLUNTEER!!!

[event101]

I do have to admit, when I read the original mane pulling article in COTH, I thought it was a little heavy on the various ways to restrain your horse while pulling. It sort of made it seem a lot of horses need to be drugged, twitched, whatever. I usually give my magazines to a horse owning (but not show oriented) friend, and I remember thinking, jeez I don't want her to think mane pulling is some torturous ordeal.

So I guess I can kind of see where this letter writer was coming from, even though she seems a little, um, extreme. It usually isn't a big deal. Every horse I've ever done didn't really care. My old horse even seemed to like it. I think the most surprising thing about the letter was that it was written by a vet. Definitely seemed like an over reaction!:lol:

[LuvMyTB]

The letter was extreme, definitely. But I agree with those who've noted that many horses do find it very uncomfortable.

I have had two TBs and both have been on the sensitive side. Both hate currying with a passion, and they haven't liked mane pulling either.

My old mare hated it with a passion and I wouldn't even bother trying. My gelding tolerates it for about 10 minutes and then he's had enough.

I can't stand long manes personally, so I have used scissors to get the job done. After a week of growing out, you can't even tell it wasn't pulled.

[JoZ]

I understand that some horses really dislike mane pulling. But someone please correct me if I am wrong:

1) I have always thought that horses had fewer, or maybe NO, nerve endings in their mane. So it is not comparable to pulling a human's hair out. The tugging may be annoying but it is different. I know I can lead my horses around by their manes or tug on them without any sort of reaction.

2) I also thought that a rope or chain on the horse's upper gum released endorphins. I'm not talking about cranking something down so it digs into the gum... but pressure applied there.

True? Deluded?

[NoExcuses]

As a human that hates having my hair combed, I relate to these horses. Try the following
Pull when horse is still warm after work.
Use ora-jel, or other topical numbing agent.
I use a clipper blade to get most done, then pull to thin.
They do make stripping combs that will thin, then you can use the clipper blade.
Some do not mind, some are just more sensitive than others. I am not opposed to just saying yes, if the above dosen't help.

[lolalola]

I was always under the few or no nerve endings impression as well. My horses don't mind it. I can't imagine any horse would put up with it if it hurt as much as human hair pulled out of the head. Any vets other than the letter writer care to chime in on the nerve endings question?

[Androcles]

I understand that some horses really dislike mane pulling. But someone please correct me if I am wrong:

1) I have always thought that horses had fewer, or maybe NO, nerve endings in their mane.

Well, I don't see how there can be no nerve endings there. I don't know, but the horses (at least some) sure seem to think there are.

[Go Fish]

Ya know, for 3 squares, a furnished apartment, a gym membership, designer clothing and planned outdoor entertainment, my horses are going to have to put up with a little crap. That includes mane pulling.

I've owned A LOT of horses and never had one, not one, that I couldn't train to stand for mane pulling. They get used to it.

[CoolMeadows]

Sounds like my loony neighbor... "but pulling manes is meeeean!"

Meanwhile, her horses run all over the top of her, the farrier, the vet and anyone else who ever dares try to do something "mean" to them, and have put her in the hospital twice.

Pull the manes! The only one here who gets a reprieve is my old man, who gets the scissors (I still cringe when I do it though!)

[Grataan]

All animals have sensory nerves at their roots. Some people feel that horses have fewer than most. Its more that horses are simply more stoic/less sensitive and/or just don't care. Some horses are obviously bothered by it-which is why I have no problem sedating one if it needs the whole thing pulled at once (in a similar vein when sedating for another procedure I always ask the client if they need to pull mane/clean sheath/clip ears and offer to top them up or give just a touch heavier for my work so they can have an easier time with their clip/pull/cleaning. No sense in wasting good drugs :) )

I hope I'm making sense, took a migraine pill and am kinda sleepy so...maybe Ghazzu can translate if I've made an ass of myself lol.

[Rubyfree]

Well now. At least she feels strongly about something. Too many people in this world who can't be bothered to get passionate about an issue, I say! :lol:

A couple of weeks ago, I slipped on some ice while leading the mare in. I happened to grab a chunk of her mane, back by the withers, on the way down. Slowed my descent slightly, but I ended up on my butt with a big fistful of mane- considerably more than you take out when pulling. She never flicked an ear. This is the same horse who I can't run a soft brush over in the winter because she's so touchy. *Shrug*

[Dazednconfused]

I think the letter is a little ridiculous. Okay, a lot ridiculous. Comparing it to waterboarding and torture is just in the realm of the absurd.

I went from the arabian world to grooming jumpers & eventers. The mane pulling has definitely been an interesting transition. I have to admit both that I still prefer natural manes (to those saying it gets caught, tangled, etc, I don't think your manes are probably being managed very well...). But I do enjoy how a pulled mane looks on ours.

I will also say the majority definitely don't like it. Have a couple that actually get kind of angry and upset about it. I don't like to do it, but there is good reason for it in addition to looking better on these particular horses. I think sometimes they can put up with something like that out of vanity considering they're treated well otherwise. We haven't had to drug any of them yet, but have twitched them. I don't usually have an assistant so lip chains aren't really possible. As far as likening it to plucking, I'm not sure about that. I've had my eyebrows waxed for a couple of years and they usually tidy up a few hairs by plucking, and it hurts as much today as it did when I first started, and I hate that part. I feel kind of bad about putting the horse through something that I find rather painful myself, but recognize it's an aesthetic requirement...

[Gry2Yng]

One of mine couldn't care less, one actually drops when you pull his mane or tail and the other is violently opposed. The one who is violently opposed, is EXTREMELY sensitive about everything - not physically but mentally. The one who drops, you can't touch him with a brush. Letter was way over the top, all you get by being that extreme is having people turn away and roll their eyes.

[cyberbay]

Didn't see all the posts on this, but I agree with the letter-writer. It's shocking to discover how few people, it seems, know the potential for pain that a lip-chain provides. This is NOT something that should be casually brought up in a 'horse-care' article, making the technique available to every unqualified 'horseperson' out there.

Just my 2 cents about what I think the author was trying to get across:
1) That there are lines that are being crossed in the article. Maybe not for the ego-centric who think it's totally OK to do whatever to the horse, since it's your need for a completely fabricated mane style that's center stage -- and the horse better comply. But, the letter probably rang a bell for those who think that caring for and riding horses are about the best interests of the horse. A short mane? In who's interest is that? Doubtful that it's the horse's...

2) That the horse is being restrained/made to hurt (whatever choice of words you'd like) b/c we want something from the horse, and we're going to get it from it no matter the cost.

More than a few people have indicated that they feel 'bad' about the obvious discomfort the horse is suffering. And what is the purpose of a 'feeling' but to indicate to you that you're on some moral quicksand?

Any good horseman knows that the horse should be approached with integrity and with a win/win attitude. Don't know if that mane-pulling article would make the "good horsemanship" cut...

And, yes I keep my horses' manes short. I like the look -- it shows them off. My horses have been much better with mane pulling/scissors, b/c I take the time to learn their limits and give them a way to tolerate the procedure if they don't like it much. Their discomfort I listen to way more than my need to have the mane just so.

Also just had to ask: What is an 'aesthetic requirement?" Guessing it's just found in the Rule Book. That's not a requirement, like school vaccinations. It's just a prevailing fashion style.

[Dazednconfused]

There is a certain style and grooming caliber that is expected in some breeds.

Just as in arabian shows you probably won't get a second look without having a horse that is bodyclipped, ears clipped, etc there are some circles that require pulling. I don't know about you but as a groom I like my horses to show up and look like they're there to win (not to mention that's what I get paid for!) ;) Sorry, I'm not going to be the one to attempt a new trend. Also, you have to pull to be able to braid (something else that is required in some breeds. But if you want to show up at HITS for a hunter class not braided be my guest. It's your money to blow!)

[pines4equines]

Listen, I have no problem with pulling a mane if the horse is not bothered by it. But if you have to use restraints, twitches or clips twisting the skin, I personally would find another method to shorten my horse's mane especially if you are showing at the local level, schooling or just trail riding.

Think like YOUR horse and if he hates it but fashion is at stake, find another way to shorten his mane.

[Appsolute]

I used to be a working student and pulled many manes. Some didn't seem to mind, others expressed lots of pain. I am sure they have nerve endings in their mane, horses don't lie!

Now that I am older, and have my own opinions, I don't pull any more. There are plenty of ways to make a mane look good with out ripping it out.

My youngster made it very clear that it HURT! That was the last of that. No way am I going to put her through pain for my ego.

She has such a lovely temperment and trusts me so much. I am not going to betray that by restraining her and submitting her to unnecessary pain.

[Tif_Ann]

Ahhh.... manes. One of my favorite topics. :) My pinto looks like a stubby little boy with a pulled mane, so it grows long and thick. We call him Fabio. He has a short neck and just looks wrong with it pulled. My QH, however, looks much better with a pulled mane.
.
I'm pretty sure the person posting the response was more upset by all the restraint ideas that were in the article rather than just the pulling. I mean ... really? If you have to twitch your horse to pull his mane, why are you pulling it? There are many other options and ways of caring for a mane... though I know the thought of using a scissors on a mane can send some people (like my barn owner) into a twitching mess. :)

Long manes *shouldn't* be frizzy, tangled, bleached out, ratty, etc. I probably spend more time caring for my pinto's mane than most do with their pulled manes. I have said more than once if I'm going to have a horse with a long mane, I have a responsibility to care for it. That means he is braided in thick braids a lot of the time, like in the summer to keep his neck cool, and in the winter when the winds are really bad. I pull any whispy bits, and can get a lot of stragglers out with a good combing and running my fingers through it. He gets conditioner in it, both during his baths and a spray in conditioner/detangler when I'm combing it. I braid it for clinics and if it's bugging me while riding. His mane is so thick he gets a double running braid for shows ... and my braids have been approved by even the barn owner above, because they are tight and give the impression of "hunter braids" from a distance.

[ddashaq]

I don't pull either of my horses manes, but not because I think that it is cruel. I think that it is a pain in the @ss so I use scissors, thinning shears, etc to imitate the pulled look. The arab does not like to be pulled, so this works for him and the TB could not care less either way.

[Hampton Bay]

I don't pull either, and I wouldn't do a lip chain, twitch, or blanket clip to the skin to get it done even if I had to. Drugs, sure, because then they are blissfully unaware of the entire process. But really, I find that pulling is way more of a hassle than I want to deal with, so I just don't. I use scissors to trim it, and when I am done it looks pulled.

But I do have one with a long, thick mane that looks wonderful, and she's out 24/7. The ends get bleached a bit, so those get trimmed off. I just wash and condition it maybe once a month or so (she's only 2). If it's a bit tangled, it gets doused in Show Sheen or something similar. No biggie.

[NancyHenson]

I was the braider originally interviewed for the article. We covered a lot of ground that day and I was frankly amazed at the size of the whole article. I find it unfortunate that the restraint portion was so prominent as the number of horses I actually have to twitch in order to pull the mane is quite small. I have probably pulled the manes on 25 horses since I have been here and haven't had to twitch any.

Didn't see all the posts on this, but I agree with the letter-writer. It's shocking to discover how few people, it seems, know the potential for pain that a lip-chain provides. <snip>

The lip chain was never mentioned in the article so I don't know why it has become a focus of the discussion. You did touch on the main point of any of these methods and that is the potential for pain. Bottom line: a horse in a lot of pain rarely stands still so for my purposes, creating a lot of pain would be counterproductive.


Just my 2 cents about what I think the author was trying to get across:
1) That there are lines that are being crossed in the article.
Maybe not for the ego-centric who think it's totally OK to do whatever to the horse, since it's your need for a completely fabricated mane style that's center stage -- and the horse better comply. But, the letter probably rang a bell for those who think that caring for and riding horses are about the best interests of the horse. A short mane? In who's interest is that? Doubtful that it's the horse's...

Almost nothing we as humans do with horses is in their interest, especially compared to our own. Horses are designed to spend all day walking around with their head's down. They weren't designed to be ridden or to pull a cart or stand in a stall.


2) That the horse is being restrained/made to hurt (whatever choice of words you'd like) b/c we want something from the horse, and we're going to get it from it no matter the cost.<snip>
Any good horseman knows that the horse should be approached with integrity and with a win/win attitude. Don't know if that mane-pulling article would make the "good horsemanship" cut

A bit of drama in the first part here, don't you think? Mane pulling is just like any other training. Make the appropriate response the easiest option.
I do think it is good for a horse th know, just like other pets or children for that matter, there is a leader and that leader's wishes should be followed. My horses stands to be tacked and have his feet picked. He is at my shoulder when being led and waits for the butt bar to come down before he backs up off the trailer. These are not optional behaviors and my horse does not get an opinion about any of them. There are many paths to God and a good horse person finds the best way to get what they want at the least cost to the horse.

While horses all have varying degrees of pain threshhold, it's a rare horse that does not learn to stand quietly to have it's mane pulled. As an above poster mentioned, horses who throw a fit about mane pulling are often the same ones who don't stand well and don't respect the personal space of his human.

I thought the section on 'restraint' did a good job of indicating that there is only a certain point to which you can go before the whole situation is counter productive. As an fyi, I have pinched my arm skin with the clamp because when a friend first showed me the clamp, I didn't imagine it would be all that useful. It's a good pinch, but not intolerable.

I will note there were three pictures in the article that were not among the ones taken that day and the clamp picture is one of them. My clamp is smaller and not blue, not that that matters particularly. Another was the bungy cord photo, although everything looked completely accurate there, and the clipper blade photo, because they used the wrong half of the blade.

As was also mentioned in the article, there are horses for whom it is clearly a traumatizing experience and it's best if you plan on pulling the mane while the horse is tranquilized.

Teaching the horse to have his mane pulled is something best done at home, just like all training. If a horse is having his mane pulled for the first time at a horse show the night before he makes his pre green debut by a braider with ten others to get to, his first experience is not going to be ideal. That said, most braiders are good at pulling the manes in these circumstances because we want to be able to approach the horse on a daily basis and have him stand quietly to be braided. If Al Queda is standing on the ladder, the horse isn't going to care that you just want to braid. He is going to remember his previous negative experience with you.

If there is anything else anyone wishes to ask me about the article, I'll be happy to respond but I am without regular internet access so it may not be timely.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

My TB seems OK with mane pulling. I'm sure it's not his favorite pass time (it's not mine either, he has a very thick mane) but he behaves. When I go to pull the mane out he'll pull against me a little bit to try and help the process move faster lol.

I hate long manes to be honest. I actually just cut his (shh, don't tell) the other day. It'll be halfway down his neck by April (grows like a weed! just like everything else on him) and then I'll pull it so it looks proper and is easier to braid.

Although, if I pull it or cut it (which, I've only done in the winter out of cold hands and desperation) it stands up and goes every which way so you can't really tell what's going on. :lol:


I have heard of some horses that really detest the process. In that case I don't see why sedation or other methods can't be used.

[cyberbay]

D'n' confused: No kidding that there are certain turnout customs as well as trends and styles in each breed and discipline for the show ring. (And there was no need to imply I don't know how to turn out a horse for the show ring.) But, I think the point is: is the custom and trend/style more important than the horse's wellbeing? What is THE priority? That is the question.

The horse is shaking his head or slamming back against the x-ties when he sees the mane comb for a reason. That must be registering with you and anyone with horses. How else can he communicate with you? Would you prefer learned helplessness as a response?

That's OK you don't want to start a new trend. But there is a difference between trend and doing the right thing. I'm sure you can do the right thing. There are ways to get a mane looking very nice. I'm a scissor fan, personally, and those combs with the razor are great. I simply won't get my horse to fit a man-made, trendy look at any cost. Doing it otherwise is ego, not horsemanship.

NancyHenson: Well, I can't agree that what humans do with horses much of the time is against their interests. To use your own analogy, few 6 year old children want to go to school, but they are made to go, and no one can say that an education (methods aside) is against their interests. But, there is no physical PAIN involved. I happen to believe that correct riding, moderate levels of competition or extra activity in addition to that, and stabling/care that is as close to M. Nature ARE better for the horse than a feral or wild lifestyle. It's a balance, otherwise it tips into exploitation. It's a daily question and consideration.

Unfortunately, as you indicated, the article was more about restraint methods. You mentioned that a horse can learn to stand for mane pulling. But there was little info on how to teach a horse to do that. Too bad that info wasn't in there (or, maybe it was, and I didn't see it). As well, the examples of what a well-behaved horse should be able to do I agree with. But, remember, putting on a saddle doesn't cause pain (and I hope that if your docile horse suddenly starts fussing when the saddle is lowered, you'll take note) nor does waiting for the butt-bar to be lowered.

Whether or not pulling a few hairs at a time out of the mane causes pain or not is debatable -- we all know this. Grabbing a big hunk of mane pretty clearly does not hurt (but for horses who fuss at mane on their crest being grabbed, that is a sensitive area and the area where stallions bite in aggression, so that may explain some horses' extreme head-nodding.).

Not sure about "the drama." I was simply offering an interpretation of the letter-writer's intent. So, maybe it's best to take up this issue of 'drama' with her. Not sure how a fantasy figure got into this discussion, either. Did you mean 'all roads ... to Rome'?

Also, as someone who works in the media, you as the interview subject have the right to see copy before it goes to print. Otherwise, decline the interview. Any writer with any integrity would want the interviewee on a 'how to' -style article to read the copy, just to ensure accuracy.

Another tip to what other posters have added: pull fewer hairs, and pull straight up from the neck, toward the ceiling. That seems to keep horses comfortable (well, some, not all).

[NancyHenson]

NancyHenson: Well, I can't agree that what humans do with horses much of the time is against their interests. To use your own analogy, few 6 year old children want to go to school, but they are made to go, and no one can say that an education (methods aside) is against their interests.

Horses following both their nature and their physiology should spend the day grazing in a herd. Being a beast of burden is putting our own spin on it. Horses in the wild didn't want to be dragged down by wolves either, but it was part of the deal. If one really wants to do right by their horses, they would be pasture puffs 24/7. As far as six year old chldren go, what they want has absolutely nothing to do with what is in their best interests.

Unfortunately, as you indicated, the article was more about restraint methods.

Actually, it wasn't more about restraint methods, nor did I say it was. It was a four page article with six pictures. One page and two pictures talked about restraint.

Not sure about "the drama." I was simply offering an interpretation of the letter-writer's intent. So, maybe it's best to take up this issue of 'drama' with her.

"That the horse is being restrained/made to hurt (whatever choice of words you'd like) b/c we want something from the horse, and we're going to get it from it no matter the cost."

This, being your interpretation, I found dramatic. Nowhere has anyone mentioned 'no matter what' and in fact 'no matter what' was indicated in the article as something to be avoided.


Not sure how a fantasy figure got into this discussion, either. Did you mean 'all roads ... to Rome'?

No, I meant 'there are many paths to God'. Not sure how an Italian city got into the discusion.



Also, as someone who works in the media, you as the interview subject have the right to see copy before it goes to print. Otherwise, decline the interview. Any writer with any integrity would want the interviewee on a 'how to' -style article to read the copy, just to ensure accuracy.

I don't work in the media, I am a braider. If you think the Chronicle handled it incorrectly, perhaps it's best to take it up with them.

[cyberbay]

1) OK... You and I will disagree about what's best for horses. Pasture puffs, I'm assuming with modern veterinary care and care standards, b/c I'm sure you know well the life of a wild horse. I think you are still not understanding what I'm trying to say, I guess, or maybe you are: best interests and what a creature, human or otherwise, wants are often not one and the same.

2) Sorry, misunderstood. I thought you said in your own post "...I find it unfortunate that the restraint portion was so prominent as the number of horses I actually have to twitch in order to pull the mane is quite small." I thought I was simply reflecting what you had to say yourself. You seemed to be expressing dismay that such a large portion of the article was given over to the restraint methods.

3) To reply to your comment above: "This, being your interpretation, I found dramatic. Nowhere has anyone mentioned 'no matter what' and in fact 'no matter what' was indicated in the article." Again, Nancy, I was giving what I thought was possible clarity to what the letter-writer was writing, not what I thought YOU were saying.

4) I leave the paths to God comment to another day...
5) I never said YOU were part of the media, It was a piece of friendly advice, that bit about the media, and since the article, per your own quote, didn't quite take the angle you maybe wanted, that's all it was.

I never critiqued the article. I got involved in this post to address whatseemed to be the lack of understanding surrounding the letter-writer's intent, as that was the OP's initial direction with this thread, wasn't it? It was simply an intent to shed some light on the letter writer. It isn't about supporting one POV or another. Please, remember that, Nancy.

[Androcles]

Almost nothing we as humans do with horses is in their interest, especially compared to our own. Horses are designed to spend all day walking around with their head's down. They weren't designed to be ridden or to pull a cart or stand in a stall.


I'll never understand this counter-argument to saying a particular activity is not in a horse's interest, upping the ante and saying not only is that one activity not in their interest, but it's much worse than you even suggest, with nothing being in their interest.

Not sure how an Italian city got into the discusion.
It's a common, well-known phrase. Your choice isn't.

As to being a pasture puff the 'best' thing we could do for a horse, not hardly. That is not in their natures at all.

[JSwan]

I wonder what the author thinks of roaching manes? :winkgrin:

No - never mind. I don't want to know.

[DMK]

Nancy, there ARE many paths to God (a saying even this not particularly religious person is familiar with, but I guess not everyone is) and apparently one of them is through Nutterville. :lol:

OK... You and I will disagree about what's best for horses. Pasture puffs, I'm assuming with modern veterinary care and care standards, b/c I'm sure you know well the life of a wild horse. I think you are still not understanding what I'm trying to say, I guess, or maybe you are: best interests and what a creature, human or otherwise, wants are often not one and the same.

You assume a lot that was never written or implied. I'm quite certain Nancy was bringing up the reasonably well agreed upon point that horses evolved to walk, graze and reproduce. As a perk (not for them of course), they are something that takes a relatively undigestible form of energy (grasses) and turn it into another form of digestable energy (meat) and along the way they are a cog in the wheel of grassland life cycles with roaming grazers. I don't know that there is a lot more to their evolutionary purpose. They did not evolve with much of any of our needs in mind. They didn't evolve to wear a saddle and bridle, carry a pack or human, pull a weight, travel in a collected frame, jump an obstacle, wear shoes, blankets or boots, travel in a trailer for 10 minutes or 10 hours, eat concentrated sources of energy rich food, get tied to anything, or have short manes. Every last one of those things is our choice and let's face it, the horse would probably have been extinct if it was not so useful to us. So you apparently draw a line at restraint for mane pulling. Someone else may draw it at a long trailer trips or stalling a horse for more than 8 hours or a collected frame or wearing shoes and blankets or using rollkur or poling or draw reins. It's all a line and it's all subjective and apparently you are happy with yours. That's all fine and wonderful, but why do you sound like your line is morally superior?

[BestHorses]

The neck clamp turned me off. If a horse doesn't like mane pulling that much I'll just use thinning shears.

[cyberbay]

DMK - please remember, I was just trying to shed light on what I think the letter-writer was trying to say. That's all.

Don't jump to conclusions about what you think my line is, although I think "at any cost" is a good guideline in life... There is no moral superiority in there. Just a guideline.

[Anne]

Keep in mind that Nancy is often at the showgrounds in the middle of the night, dealing with horses she may or may not know at all, much less well. A certain measure of self defense is necessary in that position. Also, Nancy braids at the country's largest horse shows. Like it or not, appearance matters at that level of the game. This is not the local 4H circuit, or a backyard show. Unconventional alternatives end up looking just like that.

I'm a veterinarian with a special interest in anesthesia and analgesia in all species. I braided my way through undergrad and veterinary school. The 3 year old, unsocialized, intact pinto warmblood colt who repeatedly bit my arm and pulled back hard enough to break his shank remains a "favorite". I have always pulled manes, and have encountered very few horses in 25 years of horsemanship for whom mane pulling was intolerable. I don't think it's cruel. As far as how to teach a horse to stand still, there are several ways to do that, and I don't think that necessitates an article. You can have a come to Jesus meeting and declare yourself the boss, or you can use a carrot stick and treats and a clicker if that floats your boat.

DMK, I shared your mental image of what must have happened in Middleburg when that letter arrived.

[NancyHenson]

1) I think you are still not understanding what I'm trying to say, I guess, or maybe you are: best interests and what a creature, human or otherwise, wants are often not one and the same.

I absulutely agree. However, since horses did not evolve with the purpose of becoming our beasts of burden, their interactions with us are almost all 'unnatural.' The fact that wild horses have a hard life does not change that.

2) Sorry, misunderstood. I thought you said in your own post "...I find it unfortunate that the restraint portion was so prominent as the number of horses I actually have to twitch in order to pull the mane is quite small."

I did, but for you to then state that more of the article was about restraint is not accurate.


3) To reply to your comment above: "This, being your interpretation, I found dramatic. Nowhere has anyone mentioned 'no matter what' and in fact 'no matter what' was indicated in the article." Again, Nancy, I was giving what I thought was possible clarity to what the letter-writer was writing, not what I thought YOU were saying.

And since neither one of us is the letter writer...oh, unless you are?, both of our opinions are equally valid.

4) I leave the paths to God comment to another day...

Google is your friend. It is a rather well known 'saying' that means pretty much the same as 'All roads lead to Rome.'


5) I never said YOU were part of the media, It was a piece of friendly advice, that bit about the media, and since the article, per your own quote, didn't quite take the angle you maybe wanted, that's all it was.

Here's your quote, which pretty much sounds like you thought I was in the media. Also, as someone who works in the media, you as the interview subject have the right to see copy before it goes to print.

I was not in control of the article. I was interviewed. The interviewer asked questions and I answered them. Nothing in the article was incorrect. There was also an entire page about managing thin manes and we spent about five minutes on that area. I would not have expected a full page there, either. I guess that is why I am a braider and not a media person.


I never critiqued the article.

You didn't?


1) That there are lines that are being crossed in the article

Don't know if that mane-pulling article would make the "good horsemanship" cut...

Nope. No critiquing there.

I got involved in this post to address whatseemed to be the lack of understanding surrounding the letter-writer's intent, as that was the OP's initial direction with this thread, wasn't it? It was simply an intent to shed some light on the letter writer. It isn't about supporting one POV or another. Please, remember that, Nancy.

And once again, unless you are the letter writer, you have no more knowledge of that intent than anyone else responding here. So your responses, while interesting, do not rise to a higher level of accuracy.

[SuperSTB]

I don't pull either of my horses manes, but not because I think that it is cruel. I think that it is a pain in the @ss so I use scissors, thinning shears, etc to imitate the pulled look. The arab does not like to be pulled, so this works for him and the TB could not care less either way.

This is us... I don't have the friggin patience nor time to pull a mane. The Mare hardly has a mane so it's a non issue but the paint has freaked out (she hates the curry too) I typically just roach her mane as she is large pony/ cob beefy build and it suits her. I had a leasee who tried a few times to pull her mane. Peeling the leasee off the roof rafters was not fun. The other 2 get scissors nowadays.

[kookicat]

I use a mane rake rather than pulling. I hate pulling manes- never mind the horse, my fingers get really sore! ;) :lol:

http://www.clippersharp.com/equine/smart_grooming/smart_manes/smart_manes_medium_slash_fine

[cyberbay]

This is turning into a tit-for-tat; actually it did awhile ago. Again, I was giving an interpretation, not an opinion.

And, yes, I thought the article went where it shouldn't have, but I believe those commments are mostly separate from the 'interpretation of letter' comments.

I am not sure why you are on my case so much, when maybe you should take your comments to the veterinarian(?) who wrote that letter. If you can recall, she was the one who said what she said. I simply offered an interpretation. You may not like it, but it's a free world, and so on.

Yes, I should have included "...coming from a member of the media" or something like that to make that sentence more clear. I apologize. But, again, could you have taken a moment to seek some clarity before assuming all comments are unfriendly? Wouldn't have that saved some effort for everyone?

[Androcles]

Google is your friend. It is a rather well known 'saying' that means pretty much the same as 'All roads lead to Rome.'


If you say so. If you have to google something, by definition it's not commonplace.

[DMK]

If you say so. If you have to google something, by definition it's not commonplace.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! No. Perhaps you are just not very well read?

Try this quote on for size, see if it fits:

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

You can be Horatio, just this once.

[Androcles]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! No. Perhaps you are just not very well read?


No, I don't think so, rather lacd of familiarity with one book in particular that is at 'fault' here. In fact I took the poster's advice and googled the phrase, and lo and behold every reference is to religion, what do you know!

[lauriep]

Oh, for Pete's sake! Get over yourselves! If you don't want to pull your horses' manes, then don't! But don't get all judgey and finger pointy at us that do. I've probably pulled more manes than most anyone here, except for Nancy, and the VAST majority of them don't mind, some only mind because they don't like having ANYTHING done to them other than be fed, and a tiny fraction really object. Well, TS. They have to deal with it if they are going to be hunters. Period. There is no CUTTING of manes you want to braid. There is a method using scissors that is appropriate on a THIN mane that works but it is NOT cutting. If a mane is to be braided, it has to have tapered ends, and you CANNOT get that by cutting, and razoring doesn't work on a thick mane.

Also, why do you complainers think that all manners of restraint HURT? The fact is that they redirect the horses' attention, but not necessarily through pain. That is YOUR interpretation. But again, if you don't want to upset your precious pony, then don't. But there are those of us, like me, who are getting pretty tired of being accused of abuse, or not loving horses, because we want or need our horses to look a certain way. Even if my horses NEVER went to a show, they would have pulled manes, because I like them. They are impeccably cared for, fed, and all of their needs are met. If I want to pull their manes, and it distresses them for 15 minutes 6 times a year or so, too bad.

[foursocks]

Thank you, Laurie! A voice of reason in the wilderness...

I've pulled many, many manes in my time. Even my horse, who acts like currying is a murderous attack, will stand for his mane to be pulled. I don't do it with him because a) he's a jumper and b) his mane is so thin it looks like a veil when it's pulled!

As for those who say some horses obviously find it painful- sure, horses have different levels of sensitivity, just like anything. But my eyes were opened to how much this is psychological rather than physical when I was trying to brush my gelding and he was jumping all over the place and waving his leg at me. My trainer, who my horse respects (way more than me, sadly) and trusts, marched over said "BEHAVE!" and began brushing my horse. Who stood there like a rock- not even a skin twitch.

To top it off, he actually relaxed, cocked a leg, and flopped his ears sideways before my trainer was done- so he wasn't standing still because he was afraid, he just realized it was time to stop playing around. I'd been under the impression that his wittle skin was so sensitive and blah blah- he just doesn't like being brushed and knew he could get away with dorking around while I was doing it.

Mane pulling isn't torture- that's ridiculous and unfounded. If a horse is sensitive about it, pull less at a time so you aren't yanking on his neck. I think often that is the real source of annoyance for them, having their neck yanked sideways by someone trying to pull a great big hank all at once. It's not rocket science and it's an old tradition, but if you don't like it and don't show where a pulled or braided mane is the norm, than don't do it. Sheesh.

[Dead Lame]

I must vehemently disagree with DMK and 4sx. After reading all the discussion of the excruciating pain associated with mane pulling, I am convinced.

I've decided to let my eyebrows go au naturel.

Arched and smoothed is not how wild hominids evolved. :no:

[tkhawk]

Ok never pulled a mane myself, only seen it done on other horses. They were just fine and most just stood there-but to compare it to waterboarding-Hmm was the author a PETA person??

[Appsolute]

Some horses don't mind mane pulling, for others, it HURTS! And I do not think it is always an training or respect issue. My filly is VERY well trained. I get compliments on her manners every where we go (vets trainer etc). She does not stand for mane pulling. This is the only thing she objects to, and its the only thing I have subjected her to that causes pain. That was enough for me, when an otherwise cooperative, very kind filly objects violently--- I am not going to subject her to mane ripping for looks.

Instead we go through the whole pulling process, and stop right before the "pull" and trim / thin those hairs. Viola, shortened thinned mane... no pain.

Long story short, you do not have to be a PETA member to recognize that mane pulling really does hurt for some horses.



Ok never pulled a mane myself, only seen it done on other horses. They were just fine and most just stood there-but to compare it to waterboarding-Hmm was the author a PETA person??

[DMK]

I must vehemently disagree with DMK and 4sx. After reading all the discussion of the excruciating pain associated with mane pulling, I am convinced.

I've decided to let my eyebrows go au naturel.

Arched and smoothed is not how wild hominids evolved. :no:

Oh, Rodrigo, say it ain't so!

[Dead Lame]

Oh, Rodrigo, say it ain't so!

It's not just about being cruelty free. It's a symbol of unity, an expression of hope that we may someday bridge the wide gap between left and right.

There's also the pleasant fluttery feeling you get when there's a breeze.



FREE THE FOLLICLES! NO MORE WATERBOARDING, NO MORE TWEEZERMANS!

[NancyHenson]

Try this quote on for size, see if it fits:


Quote:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

You can be Horatio, just this once.

I think you mean, "you don't know what you don't know." don't you?:D

Reminds me of the joke about the student who reads Shakespeare's plays for the first time and says, "I don't know why everyone thinks he's so great. His stuff is full of cliches."

[NancyHenson]

Again, I was giving an interpretation, not an opinion.

Isn't your very next sentence an opinion?

And, yes, I thought the article went where it shouldn't have,
As is

I agree with the letter writer

I am not sure why you are on my case so much, when maybe you should take your comments to the veterinarian(?) who wrote that letter. If you can recall, she was the one who said what she said. I simply offered an interpretation. You may not like it, but it's a free world, and so on.

Yes, I should have included "...coming from a member of the media" or something like that to make that sentence more clear. I apologize. But, again, could you have taken a moment to seek some clarity before assuming all comments are unfriendly? Wouldn't have that saved some effort for everyone?

I am not taking it up with the author of the original letter because she did not post her opinions on a discussion forum. You did. I am sorry you feel I am 'on your case' when in actuality I am just trying to clarify some of your 'interpretations' as they do not accurately reflect what has come before. That is not being unfriendly, it's just disagreeing.

A lack of clarity is driving the discussion because you have failed to correctly recap the article, other poster's responses, or your own responses. For example, this:


And, yes, I thought the article went where it shouldn't have, but I believe those commments are mostly separate from the 'interpretation of letter' comments.

and this

I never critiqued the article. I got involved in this post to address whatseemed to be the lack of understanding surrounding the letter-writer's intent,

are not synonymous.

just as 'prominent' and 'most' are not synonymous.

That said, everyone should feel free to pull manes, or not, as they see fit. If one is going to post about it on a public discussion forum, one should strive for accuracy.

[myvanya]

Don't know why I'm bothering :rolleyes: but...

A few horses I groom even hate having scissors used to cut their manes. I don't think that means it is painful for them- I think it menas they don't like the sound and aren't used to it or don't like to stand still for very long. I will use scissors or clipper blade or alternative methods to pulling on horses who dislike having their manes pulled. I think a talented groom can make the mane look good if handed either a pulling comb or a pair of scissors and it shouldn't really matter either way to the person. If the horse objects more strenuously to one method of beautification than another, is it really worth stressing the horse just because I prefer one method over another? I, personally, think not.

I pull manes on some horses and use other methods (like scissors) on others- depends on what the horse prefers. I don't think pulling is torture but if a horse shows a marked preference, I will do what is faster and easier on me. I am wimpy like that as I admit I have joints to preserve so often take the easy way whenever I can. That is my preference though.

I think the letter was over the top as comparing mane pulling to torture even for the most sensitive horse is probably a stretch. As many have pointed out, we do worse to ourselves for the sake of beauty, though I suppose that is a matter of opinion, but I am not sure anyone would argue that pulling hair off your head in small pieces hurts more than a bikini wax! Perhaps the letter writer made a somewhat failed attempt at hyperbole but if that was the goal I think it missed the mark by quite a bit and went into the realm of the pointlessly ridiculous.
My .02 fwiw

[cyberbay]

Please note that the first part of my first post was about interpretation. The possible interpretations were enumerated. One short phrase here and there does not a critique make. I still believe that the article went where it shouldn't have, but as you'll note, I did not lengthily enumerate my objections -- if I had, I would call THAT a 'critique.'

I'm sorry you feel you have to go after me repeatedly here, Nancy. There are other posters here who didn't love what they saw in the article, but am not aware of you saying a whole lot here to them. "Letters to the Editor" IS in a public forum, and is often used as a discussion forum. That vet who wrote the letter was the one who REALLY had something to say about the article in which you were featured. So, again, take it up with her, as I can't agree with the rather thin distinction you're making over what constitutes a discussion forum.

In my first post, I offered a possible interpretation of the letter, and I stated some of my own opinions. The distinction is pretty clear. And, for the record for those whose brains are overheating: I pull manes! I use scissors! I use that gadget with the razor inside! One horse I have I don't think even knows I'm pulling his mane. One goes into the rafters at the pulling, but with him, I have been able to do it in such a way that he and I both win. It takes more time, but, to me, win/win is what it's all about. He likes his little treat in his feedtub afterward.

We all know that we come up against situations with horses in which a restraint has to be used on the spot b/c it's going to be uglier not to do so -- such as the poster who 'reminded' us that Nancy in her braiding might come up against a bit of a rogue (Really? That happens?) at 3am. And when that happens, then swift and sure handling might involve a neck pinch, etc. But, I mean, I think we all know that doing that is just a stop-gap, and that the horse or person will be better prepared for a more peaceful encounter next time?

[foursocks]

I may be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that those who don't pull also don't have their horses' manes braided for competition. A cut mane can be hell to braid. If my jumper and I ever get to a level where braiding is called for, I'll stop cutting it and pull it instead.

For now, I keep telling him he looks like Baloubet de Rouet. :winkgrin:

[Androcles]

I think you mean, "you don't know what you don't know." don't you?:D
"

You seem to specialize in telling people what they think, don't you? Didn't you mean to say you thought she meant 'there are many paths to God'?

[DMK]

You seem to specialize in telling people what they think, don't you? Didn't you mean to say you thought she meant 'there are many paths to God'?


Here's a hint, Nancy was dead on accurate. But I do like to tell her what she is thinking, and right now she should be thinking about how some people have a special talent to drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Later she will tell me what kind of people I'm thinking of...

[NancyHenson]

I'm sorry you feel you have to go after me repeatedly here, Nancy. There are other posters here who didn't love what they saw in the article, but am not aware of you saying a whole lot here to them.

I am sorry you feel someone who disagrees with your posts is going after you. I have absolutely no problem with anyone who didn't love what they saw in the article. Everyone gets an opinion. I felt no need to respond just because someone did not agree.

Your post inspired me to reply because it contained some inaccuracies I wanted to correct. It also contained your 'interpretation' that 'no matter what the cost' was reflected in the article, which it clearly was not. Your further posts continued to express interpretations of my comments that were not accurate. I struggle to understand the difference between interpreting a statement with which you agree and expressing an opinion about it. I also fail to understand how a critique has to be long to be considered a critique. If I were to say, 'Boy, your horse jumped that single oxer beautifully!', is it not a valid critique because I failed to mention the seven other jumps?

"Letters to the Editor" IS in a public forum, and is often used as a discussion forum. That vet who wrote the letter was the one who REALLY had something to say about the article in which you were featured. So, again, take it up with her,

People write in to the Letters to the editor to express their opinions. All are welcome to do so. Had she wanted to engage in a discussion about it, she would have posted here. People post on a message board to discuss different topics.


We all such as the poster who 'reminded' us that Nancy in her braiding might come up against a bit of a rogue (Really? That happens?)

Now that statement has cleared up a lot of my questions.

Yep. Five or six times a year I'll get one that shows up to the horse show with a ten inch long mane. I'll reach up to comb it's mane and it shakes his head and stomps it's foot and I know it has intimidated it's people. So, I try to find the way to get the job done. Or it shows up with a ten inch long mane just because no one has bothered. If people would take the time to train their horses at home in all facets of the horse show experience, the horse shows would be a lot less stressful for everyone.

I have also walked out of the stall and said I am not braiding it because it's just not worth it. I had a trainer set up the braiding of a feed and lead. Turns out it was a yearling stud colt who had never been off the farm until that morning. He reared up and stuck his front legs over the top of the stall and that was it for me. Wouldn't you think they would take it somewhere else first? Or just take it to a horse show and not show so it can see the sights a bit before it had to show? It's amazing what some people think...or don't.

As a general rule, I won't braid breeding babies anymore. Too many people who aren't horsemen. I 'fired' a great customer with lovely show horses because I couldn't stand to braid her babies the two times a year she showed them. They had absolutely no manners. Not one manner in the entire herd. She said, 'But, Nancy, I don't want to beat the babies.' Holy cow, if you think you have to beat the babies to train them, you sure shouldn't have them! Granted, she'd probably have to get after them now because they were horrid, but if she had done it right from the start, it would be a non issue. I was the only manners training those horses had and it happened two times a year. I wasn't making nearly enough money for that.

The first week here, I had a customer who wanted to set up a braiding time because the last time her mare was braided(which was the first time ever), they had to twitch her. Well, I wanted to explore the options because I have never had to twitch one to braid it, so I got there early. She was very tense, and it took maybe ten minutes to get her to take a breath but things then proceeded nicely and she was practically asleep when the groom arrived. The groom was very relieved she wasn't going to be getting up any earlier than was already required. However, I had to wonder why no one at the trainer's barn bothered to work on it between September and January. Once again, it was left to me to take the extra time out of a night that rarely has extra time and train their horse.

So, continue to discuss at will but unless you misconstrue something else I have said, I am done here.

[Hilltopfarmva]

We have 50 horses here, broodmares, stallions, foals, horses in training, horses showing, retired horses, you name it. In the summer EVERYONE gets their manes shortened. The showing horses get pulled most of the year with the exception of January and February when it is too cold to show (can't afford to go to FL). Of the 50, about 1/2 have varying degrees of hatred towards mane pulling. So, a lady whom had sent a horse here for training told me about a mat rake for dogs that worked well for horses hating their manes pulled. You could thin out a thick mane, turn it sideways and shorten it to make it look pulled. I love this thing!! I buy 3 a year and they are pretty cheap. The trick is not to brush your horses mane before you use it so the rake can "pull" out the knots. The horse treats it like you are brushing their mane. I use it on my weanlings and yearlings to get them used to different things and they grow up never minding some hard pulls from time to time. You can puchase this thing at Jeffers and it has a red handle. You can buy replacement blades, but i always forget where I put mine so I end up just buying enough rakes to last the year.
Anyhow, that lady's letter is Kuuurrraaazzziiieeee. I have to use varying restraints for horses for other things, not just mane pulling. We have a yearling filly right now that got a puncture on her ankle and she is getting Pen and Gen and needs to be twitched as tight as possible to get the IV injection in so we don't get reared up on and striked at. yeah, she doesn't like it, but it is either this torture or she dies of a possible joint infection. How would the lady respond to that. Oh, not to give her shots as that is a source of torture too?

[cyberbay]

Hmmm, maybe we have more in common than we realize: I keep posting here for nearly the same reasons.

First, and this genuinely pains me, and I hope I have it wrong, but, Nancy, ummm, my "Really? That Happens?" comment? Well, that comment was completely ... and ... totally tongue in cheek. OK? Get it now? A completely tongue in cheek comment that anyone who is out there among all types of horses and situations would have grasped right away. I think you need to take a moment when you read and consider the possibilities of what has been written. sigh.

And again: To this: "It also contained your 'interpretation' that 'no matter what the cost' was reflected in the article, which it clearly was not." Well, I'm giving a possible interpretation of what the Letter-writer was possibly indicating. So, I still think that that is what the writer might be thinking. Do you think the letter writer had a different intention in her letter? If so, take it up with the letter-writer. It's like accusing Lincoln's biographer of starting the Civil War. And, sorry, but your differentiating between letters to the editor and a bb discussion board, well, that's again thin. There's a pretty good likelihood that she doesn't even know about this bb and/or it's not her style.

Sorry, in my world, a critique is an in-depth review of material/issue of hand, whatever, to substantiate the pov. But, thank you for your critique of my horse's technique over single oxers. You can be his judge anytime!

I hope HillTopFarm is aware that the letter-writer is a vet, and it's a reasonable guess that she knows more about restraint techniques and the importance of safety, courtesy of vet school and her practice, than most of us. And maybe that very knowledge informed her letter more than we'll ever know...

[KismetEagleEyes]

It's not just about being cruelty free. It's a symbol of unity, an expression of hope that we may someday bridge the wide gap between left and right.

There's also the pleasant fluttery feeling you get when there's a breeze.



FREE THE FOLLICLES! NO MORE WATERBOARDING, NO MORE TWEEZERMANS!

REALLY?!?!? I was trying to refrain from commenting on this thread, but I couldn't stand it any longer. Perhaps you should abandon all modern technology as well and retreat into the woods to live as one with nature...and don't forget your peace pipe. :rolleyes:

[alteringwego]

Somewhat surprised this has made it to page 4!

I'm in the same boat as LaurieP. Our horses have every need/pain/quirk addressed and the only things we ask from them is to behave and work under saddle and to occasionally withstand being a bit uncomfortable for the sake of beauty. Not a big deal. And frankly I found the no hands required restraints to be genius. Wished I had thought of a clamp and bungi before!

[MistyBlue]

eh, go for a roach. Problem solved.


Although I'm filing away that mat rake trick. ;)

[foursocks]

I thought of this thread today because my boy was overdue for a haircut. He was interested in other things he could see out the window, which meant I could cut with impunity. After I was done butchering his mane I spent a some more time ruthlessly pulling out the stray hairs- usually this is grounds for some leg-waving.

Today? He didn't even notice. I even cut a new bridle path, and messed with his ears a little. Usually this is a NO. It wasn't until the end that he suddenly realized I was doing something he DIDN'T LIKE and he started acting all shirty. I thought, again: Hmm. All of this "sensitivity" is in his little pinhead....

[VarsityHero4]

Somewhat surprised this has made it to page 4!

I'm in the same boat as LaurieP. Our horses have every need/pain/quirk addressed and the only things we ask from them is to behave and work under saddle and to occasionally withstand being a bit uncomfortable for the sake of beauty. Not a big deal. And frankly I found the no hands required restraints to be genius. Wished I had thought of a clamp and bungi before!

Yes I am aboard that ship! Here all these years I've been letting my hand cramp while trying to twitch a horse long enough to get a shot in it, let alone shorten its mane so that the REAL torture of standing still forever while tiny little braids get twisted into its neck can go quicker. It's not JUST for beauty. Although I do prefer a short, tidy mane (cut or pulled) to a long one anyday. Always have, even when I was a kid just dreaming of owning my own horse. The clamp thing definitely went to the top 5 twitches in my book.

[DMK]

REALLY?!?!? I was trying to refrain from commenting on this thread, but I couldn't stand it any longer. Perhaps you should abandon all modern technology as well and retreat into the woods to live as one with nature...and don't forget your peace pipe. :rolleyes:

please to be stop picking on unibrows. After all,they have more world cup wins than most of us! :D