What to do about a horse the fails a ppe?

[saxony]

I have a wonderful Hanoverian/Arab gelding for sale. He's 7 years old, confirmed first level (scores in the mid 60's) schooling solid second, ridden by a junior rider, super easy at home and off the farm, sound since birth (I bred him). He's such a nice horse that the first person who came to try him made a very good offer and I accepted.

Unfortuntately he came up with some issues at his ppe and I'm not sure what to do. He scored a 2 and 2+ on his hock flexions (undersaddle) and then had a bone cyst on his left hind hock x-ray. This horse has never taken a lame step in his life and I own both his sire and his dam and both mare and stallion have also never been lame. I was asking $15,000 for this horse and now I'm not sure what to ask for him.

One other strange thing about this PPE was that the vet who did the PP changed his findings when he spoke to the buyer (who wasn't there for the PP). When he was on my farm he told me the horse flexed a 2 and 2+ but told the buyer that they were a 2+ and a 3+ and that he had navicular "changes" in addition to the bone cyst.

Does anybody have any advice or words of wisdom about this situation?

[Stacie]

With hock soreness and navicular changes you might get a lot of mileage out of changing his shoeing. Very likely related problems. Good you found out now.

You may be able to have arthroscopic surgery for the bone cyst.

Might take a year to get it all sorted out, but then he'd be ready to go

[joiedevie99]

1. The vet doesn't work for you. Anything they told you directly at the farm was a bonus. The vet only reports to the person paying for the exam. The vet won't necessarily say everything outloud while he's working. My last PPE, vet only said one thing out loud with my trainer and the owner's trainer present. She listed off at least 10 to me on the phone that night. Many were minor, but as I would expect, every issue she even thought might be there was discussed.

2. If it was my horse, I'd have my own vet out to examine the issues found on the PPE. If your x-rays show the same thing, you have two options. Offer to cut the price 50%, 75%... and sell to this buyer, or advertise at the new lower price- OR do surgery, fix the issues, and hope you can sell for the current price in a year.

[AKB]

Take the horse to a university clinic and get a workup. Since the horse is sound, you may not want to treat anything. However, you will at least know what problems are there, how likely they are to make him lame, and if there is anything you should do to (e.g., shoeing changes) to prevent him from becoming lame. Then, offer to sell him to the potential buyer with a slight or large discount, depending on what is found at the university clinic.

[saxony]

I just won't do surgery on a sound horse. Even the vet who did the PPE did not recommend it. In fact he told me it would not be a good idea to start messing around with the cyst as it could very well not ever become an issue.

As far as the vet not telling the seller anything, the fact is he DID tell me stuff. If he hadn't said anything, I could understand it, but he changed his story to the buyer. He did mention several times about vet's being sued after a PPE so I don't know if he decided to just be cautious with his advice.

I've already reduced his price to 1/2 with full disclosure. I think I will get my own vet to come do a PPE just to get a second opinion.

If feel awful for this buyer as she was really excited about the horse:-(

[saxony]

Oh, and he's barefoot and has been his whole life. Should I put shoes on him? Could that even make a difference?

[Sabovee]

I would get a second opinion from my own vet.
I also wouldn't put a lot of faith in flexions.

I had a horse that failed his first vetting. Flexed a +1 on a front foot. The buyer was put off enough from that to not by him. Because there were no radiographic findings I kept him on the market, the person who bought him vetted him and the vet passed him with flying colours. Absolutely no issues - and it was a much more thorough exam than the first vetting. I disclosed to the buyer the previous "failed" vetting.

Horse was sound in work and continues to be.

I don't put a lot of faith in flexions... or vettings for that matter! When I purchase a horse I don't even do flexions anymore. I do a general health (eyes, ears, heart, lungs, pull blood) and xray hocks, knees and front feet.

[tpup]

The bottom line is that it is up to the buyer. She will need to decide if the horse can do the work intended and if he is worth the risk. When my horse was PPE'd (I was the buyer) he came up with a "moderate" navicular change and arthritic hocks. I was an advanced beginner at the time. I "cornered" the vet and asked him if his daughter were to buy the horse for the work intended, would he be okay with it? He absolutely said yes. This horse's temperment was phenomenal for my level. I took a chance and have had him almost 2.5 years without regret. His navicular never progressed - we have never had lameness issues on that hoof. He gets hock injections, good supps and regular exercise. He's ridden 3-4 times a week (weather permitting!!) We trail ride, do flatwork and he is able to do light jumping.

By the way if this helps, he was barefoot and shoeing him made a HUGE difference. We tried barefoot for over a year and a half. He has aluminums up front and steel in the back.

Good luck and hope everything works out.

[Equine Studies]

In the fall I was buying a horse in a similar situation. Mare never has taken a lame step, flexed great but hock x-rays were shockingly bad. I knew the owner and we got a second opinion from the horse's regular vet (partners of my vet who did the PPE). He agreed the x-rays showed potential issues (hocks are fusing, one has a gigantic spur) and suggested she drop the price in half from $4500, which she did and I bought her. She has still never really been lame (except after we pulled her front shoes for winter). Having said that, I wouldn't call her 100% sound, but serviceably.

Vet probably is being extra cautious. If the horse is sound now I wouldn't mess with anything surgery wise. It might not hurt to try shoes and see if that helps.

He might also just be extra sensitive to flexions and could be sound his whole life-but also maybe not. My mare is exceptionally tough-she should be lame based on her x-rays but likes to work so if she's in any discomfort you'd never know it. Flexions are not necessarily the best diagnostic tool-I would never just do flexions, but also x-rays.

If you really think this would be a good home for him and the girl is still willing to buy him at a reduced price (and that is OK with you to do that), I'd go for it. Most buyers understand that even if he vetted 100% clean you never know what might happen down the road. Not to mention the fact that at $15000 anyone with a brain would vet him and you're looking at this scenario over and over again.

Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

[WishIWereRiding]

I would definitely have your own vet out to examine him and either review the x-rays if that is possible, or take your own. The buyer is in a more difficult spot than you are however. If I were her, I don't know what I would do!

[saxony]

Thanks guys! This particular buyer has passed on him. She's not willing to take a gamble and I understand. I have already resigned myself to at least a 1/2 price reduction. It's really such a shame as he's an awesome horse and I know whoever buys him will not regret it. I've even thought about selling him with a soundness guarantee as I'm so convinced that he will be fine, but I won't know how he's being managed and I'm sure that would be setting myself up for a disaster. I think I will have my vet take a look at him and go from there. Argh, I hate selling horses!!!

[IronwoodFarm]

It's up to the buyer entirely if the horse is suitable for the intended purpose. The seller has the option of dropping the price.

There is a cost to keeping a horse on the farm to rehab especially if the chances are that the horse will still have the issues. I had this situation happen with a horse priced similarly come up with bad flexions on the LH. I paid for the xrays at the PPE because I wanted to know what it was. Turns out he has moderate arthritis as age 7. The vet couldn't swear if hock injections would work or not. The buyer didn't want to take on a future problem even with a price reduction. Besides, the diagnosis was now a pre-existing condition for insurance purposes.

I ended up slashing the horse's price by 80% and selling him for a pittance to a good home with low level performance goals. I might have been able to hold out for more money, but it would have been minor and it made more sense to get a super nice horse placed in a good situation for him.

[deltawave]

A PPE is no guarantee of future soundness (or unsoundness) and the same is MORE true for X-rays. A well-informed buyer is going to realize that, but buyers come in all shapes and sizes and levels of knowledge, and each has his/her own mental "hot button" issues based on experience. Some people wouldn't TOUCH a horse with a history of colic, for instance, perhaps because they've had bad luck, while to others it's a non-issue.

For a clinically sound, going horse, there's probably still a market even with a few "dings" on a PPE. You might want to get the hocks injected if your own vet thinks it's worthwhile, that might help a lot, and disclose this to potential buyers. A bone cyst may never turn out to be more than an interesting finding on an X-ray, which is why X-rays turn out to resemble Pandora's Box so often.

[saxony]

I was wondering if I should do hock injections and see how he flexes then. Maybe I'll do that. I used to import horses from Europe for resale and stopped mostly due to the PPE issue. This is a good reminder for me in case I ever have a temporary lapse of sanity and consider doing it again, LOL.

[EqTrainer]

A PPE is no guarantee of future soundness (or unsoundness) and the same is MORE true for X-rays. A well-informed buyer is going to realize that, but buyers come in all shapes and sizes and levels of knowledge, and each has his/her own mental "hot button" issues based on experience. Some people wouldn't TOUCH a horse with a history of colic, for instance, perhaps because they've had bad luck, while to others it's a non-issue.

For a clinically sound, going horse, there's probably still a market even with a few "dings" on a PPE. You might want to get the hocks injected if your own vet thinks it's worthwhile, that might help a lot, and disclose this to potential buyers. A bone cyst may never turn out to be more than an interesting finding on an X-ray, which is why X-rays turn out to resemble Pandora's Box so often.


This. In fact, I would not reduce this horses price based on those findings. I'd have a third party vet redo the vetting; attend to whatever needs to be attended to, make scrupulous records of what transpired and move on. If I had a client who vetted your horse and that came up on the PPE that is exactly what I would recommend you do, and I would recommend that my client hang in there and see what happens. There is NO guarantee of soundness on any horse no matter what you find on PPE and those finding are - in a sound horse in work - not really disturbing if they can be resolved.

[saxony]

That's interesting Eqtrainer. This thread has really been informative. I know I'm the type of buyer who puts more stock in the horse's history and current soundness than anything, but I just figured I was alone in that philosophy. I really appreciate everyone offer their input.

[pinkme]

Having vetted a horse, it failed, bad, and still bought it, I have a few things to add. Disclose the failed PPE, say something like, we have not had soundness issues, his record is x, however, he will not vet. Lower his price a tiny bit (a few $1,000, but not half!). That allows room for people to compromise and feel ok with the "gamble". Be honest with perspective buyers and offer to show them all results of the PPE (if you can get copies of xrays and such). I bet you will find a buyer!

[mustangtrailrider]

The hard thing with buying and selling horses....It is hard to know who is being honest from both sides. You may say that the horse has never been lame. I would believe you, but not many people would. Seller sounds like he/she is looking for a reason to back out of the deal....not totally honest with you.

I hate buying and selling....

[Posting Trot]

I'm not a pro, but FWIW what I'd do:

For a horse this young, I'd just keep the horse in training and go ahead and show it (assuming the horse remains sound). Re-do the x-rays for your records, and then in a year I would do the x-rays again and see what's what.

At that point you'll know a couple of things:

1) how the horse performs in steady work, despite what the x-rays show (or don't show) ;

2) the degree to which the x-rays have gotten worse or stayed the same while the horse is in work.

I'd also keep very careful records of what kind of maintenance you did to keep the horse sound (again assuming that he stays sound), so that any potential buyer would have that as an indication of what they might have to do.

If you can afford to hold on to the horse and keep him in training and show him (even if only a few times), I think this would take a lot of the risk out of the purchase for most serious buyers.

Good luck.

[magnolia73]

I bought a horse with known hock issues. Love her to pieces. They dropped her price to get rid of her. I took a risk, and ended up with a nicer horse than I could otherwise afford.

They dropped her from I think originally wanting $10k (17H, pretty, bay TB mare, goes like a hunter, swaps and jumps with a competent ride) to $3500. From the first email the seller was upfront about the hocks.

My reasoning? I liked the horse - ALOT, and well, hocks can be dealt with and well, my friend's 100% clean xraying and vetting horse tore a suspensory and now is a light duty trail horse. Are there a lot of people like me? I don't know, but you only need to find one. ;) I will say- servicably sound plus dressage might not go together, but then there are lots of people like me who don't care about showing but enjoy having a nice horse to ride.

[saxony]

Unfortunately it doesn't make sense for me to wait a year. My daughter, who rides him, will be off to college in the fall and it would be hugely expensive to keep him in training after that. I brought him indoors for the winter to keep his training going and he's doing awesome right now and he's ready to show. At this point I would rather cut my losses and also hopefully be able to be more selective as to where he ends up.

[tuppysmom]

I think that people would be very surprised to know about the large number of horses who have less than perfect PPEs and then go on the the highest levels of competition. No horse is perfect, but if you don't tell them, they don't know it.

Also, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Like Deltawave said, buyer number one may be put off by changes on hocks and not look twice at changes in a foot. Another buyer may be freaked out about some feathering on a coffin bone, and barely even look at hock rads. It does depend on their past experiences. Some people would never buy a grey horse, just because....

We were agents on a horse many years ago who had several of the common issues show up on the PPEs. The owner stuck by her guns, in fact she continued to raise his price as his training and competition level went up, and he sold in about 8 months to a rider who was thrilled to get him. By that time, his sale price had increased more than a third. The last I heard of him he was still trucking around with his adult owner and they were having plenty of success.

Buyers need to examine the whole picture and not fixate on one point. Most interesting things that show up on the PPE are just that, interesting.

[Stacie]

Oh, and he's barefoot and has been his whole life. Should I put shoes on him? Could that even make a difference?
You'd be amazed at what a small change in angle can do. Find a farrier who is known for managing horses with sore hocks. Could make the hock soreness disappear. One vets navicular changes are another vets normal hoof :-)
And I agree about the flexions. Some vets are very aggressive and make horses flex sore who really are fine.

[horselesswonder]

For a clinically sound, going horse, there's probably still a market even with a few "dings" on a PPE. You might want to get the hocks injected if your own vet thinks it's worthwhile, that might help a lot, and disclose this to potential buyers.

This would be my inclination as well. I certainly would not be ready to drastically reduce the horse's price without trying this route (or at least an evaluation by my own vet) first.

[cajunbelle]

Everyone has a different set of eyes....you now have knowledge that there is a problem, get your Vet out! I would not pass on hock issues, but would pass on Navicular changes! Make sure the facts are right, before you reduce him toooo much.

[GotSpots]

What Tuppysmom said. Most horses, particularly going campaigners, will have issues that pop up on a PPE (and heck, I think I know of only one advanced level horse who flexes perfectly clean all the time - and that horse is a freak of nature). If the horse is doing his job well (and you can prove that with a show record of some sort), then the fact that he may need his hocks done occasionally wouldn't cause me to even blink at your price point. The cyst could be a bit more of an issue, depending on where it is/what it looks like.

I would not be dropping the price in half or pulling him off the market yet. If he were mine, I'd ask the buyer who passed if she'd release the PPE records to my vet so they could be evaluated and I could use as a guide. I'd get a good sporthorse vet out to do his/her own assessment and see if injecting the hocks might help. Then I'd keep him going and keep advertising him as/is, with full disclosure (I don't believe in playing games with a horse's history to a potential buyer, as I want them to do best by the horse down the road, and having the most information possible is helpful).

[Bogie]

I would ask the potential buyer if she would release the films to your vet.

Then I'd have a vet you know/trust evaluate them and if necessary, do a physical exam and/or more films. Then I would reassess your situation based on your vet's recommendations. Maybe that means different shoeing, maybe hock injections (although if the horse is sound I wouldn't do injections based on flexions).

If your vet has findings that are better or more positive, I'd present potential buyers with access to those films and explain what happened -- the horse was sound by showed a few minor issues during a PPE. I had my vet do the following . . .

I'm always more concerned whether a horse is sound while in work than if the PPE is perfect.

I can see discounting the price, but maybe not by half (unless I was the potential buyer, then it would be very reasonable!) :lol:

Good luck!

[chemteach]

Best horse I ever owned failed her PPE. I bought her for half the price and she lived to be 26 years old and NEVER took a lame step. Wonderful show horse and wonderful friend. She could not pass the flexion tests.

[stryder]

Could also be the vet picked up a vibe from the prospective buyer, and did not want to take any chances. Fully disclosed, revetted, with a different buyer, may mean very different results for you.

[Puddin Pie]

Saxony, I was just on the other side of the fence. Looked at a great half arab (not yours, different state, breeding etc), really liked him, great match. Had an issue appear on xrays, emailed to my vets, discussed all the way around. Prossibly not a soundness issue, certainly not now, but could become one later. But given what I had been through over the summer putting a horse down, I elected to pass.

And here are the reasons: I know there are no guarantees, period. You could buy the horse and have it break its leg getting off the trailer at your farm. But since we had a known issue that could become a cartilage issue-and no way of knowing if there was damage until you did surgery, I did not want to risk it. -They might not come through surgery. -They might not be sound after surgery. You will certainly be out a lot of time in rehab. The question of if he is not lame, do you even want to go monkeying around with the joint.

If I had not had the summer from HE## and been through what I went through, I might have taken the risk, possibly at a reduced price if that had been offered. But I am looking for a longtime horse and did not want to set myself up for more heartache

I did authorize the release of the films to the owner for them to discuss with their own vet and decide what/if any treatment was appropriate. They want the best for their horse, had absolutely no idea of the issue and were also very gracious about the process. I am still bummed, but for my situation, I took the right action.

Good luck doing the best for your guy.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I would never buy a competition horse with navicular changes. Sorry. I know others on here have had success. But in my opinion, hocks are more manageable. If I were you, I would have my vet do a full work up on the feet and hocks. I would skip having my vet do flexions. I had a vet tell me once during a PPE that you can make any horse flex sore :( but regardless, in your case, I don't think they will mean anything at this point.

Then you have x-rays you can offer prospective buyers and with the disclosure (if you find one is needed) that will make buyers feel much better.

Also, I would only want to buy the horse with questionable x-rays if it was currently sound in a full work-load. Lots of issues will go away with minimal riding, but if it is doing it's job 5-6 days a week that means something to me.

Another idea, word of mouth (i.e. trainer placing the horse) could be tremendous if there is a PPE issue.

Finally, why are there navicular changes in a barefoot horse? I'd want to talk to the farrier/trimmer and vet together on that one. Or get a second farrier/trimmer opinion.

[EqTrainer]

A LOT of horses show "navicular changes" on film. MOST vets know that changes w/out heel pain/symptoms are simply findings. Some don't and make a big deal about it. Some don't make a big deal about it but the prospective buyer is spooked by the N word.

If you keep xraying you will find all sorts of things that are unique to the horse in front of you. If you xray a bunch of horses without hoof/heel pain you will find a lot of them have changes.

[Gry2Yng]

This. In fact, I would not reduce this horses price based on those findings. I'd have a third party vet redo the vetting; attend to whatever needs to be attended to, make scrupulous records of what transpired and move on. If I had a client who vetted your horse and that came up on the PPE that is exactly what I would recommend you do, and I would recommend that my client hang in there and see what happens. There is NO guarantee of soundness on any horse no matter what you find on PPE and those finding are - in a sound horse in work - not really disturbing if they can be resolved.

Agree. I would not drop the price just yet. The horse is working and sound. Get you vet out, attend to things that might help the flexions. Disclose the cyst to all future buyers, but you don't have to say the horse "failed" a PPE. Even vets say the don't pass or fail a horse. (Tho I have seen one whose PPE was so bad the vet used the word "failed" and said "Run, don't walk away from this one." Believe it or not, purchase went thru - as a seller I have never been that lucky. Horse has had more soundness issues than I could list on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper. ) Good luck with yours.

Finally, why are there navicular changes in a barefoot horse? I'd want to talk to the farrier/trimmer and vet together on that one. Or get a second farrier/trimmer opinion.

I am not sure why barefoot or shod makes a difference in navicular changes, could you explain.

[BuddyRoo]

If you look at the current guidelines for equine vets, you'll note that flexion tests are NOT considered a good diagnostic tool. Period. There is far too much variation in how they are applied plus...many horses who have flexions applied in an extensive way WILL flex sore even if they are otherwise sound. Rads are much preferred.

If I was looking to buy a horse who failed flexions, I'd be looking at rads. If the rads looked good an the horse was sound? No problem here.

I feel like you may be getting bogged down in a less than independent sort of situation.

Why don't you talk to YOUR vet...see what they think.

Shoot...I'd fail a flexion. But I can perform. ;)

[saxony]

I can't thank all of you enough for taking the time to respond to my plea. You have all talked me down from the edge of the cliff:-) It's particularly upsetting to me because this horse has been in our family from the moment he breathed his first breath and I KNOW what a great horse he is. I know I can't get emotional about this so this has really helped me put everything in perspective and has given me a plan of action. The buyer, bless her heart, is releasing the x-rays to me and I will have my vet (who is excellent and I trust completely) do an exam and evaluate the films. I'm sure once he takes a look I will have a better plan of action. Thank you all, again - you have been so helpful!!

[Cielo Azure]

I read an article recently that was saying that new model is that every PPE will have issues. That there is no "pass" or "fail." I was like W.T.F.?

But the point is that it is like a house inspection, a "good" PPE will disclose EVERYTHING that was, is, and might be in the future and then let the potential buyer decide. If they don't disclose every single "what might be in the future," the veterinarian could be liable down the road.

[Equibrit]

Get a second opinion. I was told by a SELLER, who had Xrays, that the 2 year old had "changes in his hocks" as per her vet. I took the chance and made a really low offer (after all it was a 2 YEAR OLD) and took the same Xrays to my vet. He said those are fine hocks but, ooooh look he fractured his fibular. He has spent a year on my hills and is now strong and fit.

What I never understand is how a vet can see "changes" without another set of pictures for comparison.

[dalpal]

Dang...I've seen ads for this little guy and he is BEAUTIFUL!!!
I don't know many horses who have done a fair amount of work who will pass any vetting squeaky clean. If it were me, I would look more at his history than a flexion test. Wish I had 7500.00 and my own farm, I'd take a chance on him!!! :yes:

[PRS]

Here is what my vet said (he and his wife are both vets that specialize in horses)....no horse on the planet is going to pass every single point of the PPE with the highest scores. It will be up to the buyer to make the decision based on the vet's findings whether the horse will suit their intended use. As far as what I would do...I would get my own trusted vet to give me his honest evaluation as if I were purchasing this horse instead of selling him and go from there.

[PRS]

I had a similar situation about 12 years ago. I had a mare for sale and she failed the flexion test on both front legs.....She had never taken a lame step either. I ended up not selling her and still own her. She is now 26 years old and has still never taken a lame step! I just love this mare and am really glad I never sold her.

[deltawave]

Gosh, my OTTB mare had "navicular changes" as a four year old. She's still sound now, age 21. :)

[SquishTheBunny]

I wouldnt trust a vet to read the radiographs on my PPE. If there was any concern about nivicular changes I would get them sent directly to a radiologist. What many vets call "changes" are normal for a LOT of horses.

I have had 3 horses vetted with "nivicular changes' bought them and they were all sound. Vetted one horse "clean" at 10, and by 12 was retired due to nivicular disease. I just dont think its one of those things you can predict future soundness from radiographs.

I'd drop her price, but not by a lot. Bone cysts arent usually problematic, and I bet if you had the feet shot again your nivicular shots may show good feet - make sure you get good quality images and use another vet. And get a radiologist to read. The only thing I would really be concerned about would be the flexions...but, we all have our stiff days, worth another try.