Feet, diet and LGL... help?

[moukoyui]

I just had the farrier out pics and opinions here
http://coursesandcurriculum.blogspot.com/

He has always had poor quality feet. As I have talked to people about them LGL : Low Grade Laminitis has been brought up. This freaks me out!! What do you all see in his feet?

Also I have him on a grain free forage based diet where he get 24/7 hay and 7 lbs daily Pennfeild Fibergized, plus treats. What are my choices as far as a lower sugar diet, knowing he is a hard keeper and needs the fat. I would like to stick with Pennfield if possible.

I guess I am just looking for alternate opinions.

Thanks.

[Androcles]

What makes you suspect laminitis? The feet don't suggest it although you can't tell from pictures one way or another.

Have you had your hay tested and considered soaking it? Does he get grass?
Those have some of the most sugar that is available to horses.

As an aside, and not that you asked, but I don't care for this shoe/trim job.

[Cherry]

I don't see anything to indicate your horse has LGL--what makes you think that? What makes you think he has "poor quality feet"? Speak to me!

About his feet--are those photos at the bottom of his hind feet--those side views? If so, then his back feet aren't much better than his front feet. Whichever feet those are in the bottom shot, they are bullnosed which indicates a negative plane (not a good thing). This could be why your horse is having problems with his stifles! He also looks like he's got that long toe, run under heel thing going on. Your farrier should recognize that and trim accordingly.... Has your vet said anything about your horse's trim??? If not, why not???

You might want to consider a new farrier, or you may want to have your vet talk to your current farrier--not sure how much that will help, but I know how hard it is to get a farrier to come out, period.... I'm not impressed with the trim either--there's much to recommend a different farrier (from your photos) but if you like this guy then maybe a request from your vet will get him to review his work on your horse and change tactics....

I don't know what the NSC of the Fibergized is but it's probably one of the better feeds out there--I think it's beet pulp based--that's one thing you'd need to know, but I don't see you have any reason to worry at this time. What kind of cross is your horse??? That might have something to do with what he's being fed but I don't see a problem at this time....

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=moukoyui;4676969]I just had the farrier out pics and opinions here
http://coursesandcurriculum.blogspot.com/

He has always had poor quality feet.

ummm I am not a farrier nor do I play one on the internet:)

but I see (as a finished product) a shoe that seems too small for the foot ( not coming back under the heels enough far and perhaps giving the hoof some shoe to "come down into thru the quarters)...

a balance from the hoof line to the toe (on the long sides to the quarters) that is off...those do not look bad quality feet over all at all but that the workmanship is off (could be better)

as my farrier says: if a farrier "can" he will....meaning that skill thresholds are different for all farriers...and until they learns and develop a new skills set thru education things stay the same for them...like any one else

all that said...the body above normally affects the hooves below...(and vice versa) which is to say even perfect hooves won't stay perfect if the body above creates shifts in balance and pressure...

so say your horse is terribly one sided or has hurt his neck or something...

the way his big ole body molds itself around his defect is reflected in the feet...I have one horse that if left barefoot,that as a condition of his own self, likes to wear the left hoof down one full size than the other and point her crooked by wearing the inside off....this is how he travels "naturally"and land and his feet show this

now when I decide to do things with him I know that I will need about 3 or 4 full resets in conjunction with proper slow buildup back to where he was before.....

good luck

[ChocoMare]

Check your PM's ;)

[Leather]

I too am not a farrier/trimmer, but given the "bullnose" look of his toes IMO might have negative palmar angles.

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/hoofprints/misc-articles/negativep3.html

I'm also not a fan of this trimming/shoeing job.

Try posting on this forum--you'll get a lot of input from some good farriers:

http://horseshoes.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16

[moukoyui]

First off thank you all for posting.

Answers to questions:

Those are all his front feet the first are after the trim and reset and later are from before he did them but on the same day.

He not in good condition when I get him, esp. feet and due to trusting trainers farrier he suffered for a while. I say suffered because he would go lame after EVERY shoeing and was very easy to bruise.

I have wanted to take him barefooted for a while, but I hear that he has thin, walls thin soles, and flat feet. I can see where there is flaring that needs to be addressed but in all honesty to the farrier is is the best his heals have looked in a long time. I think there have been times when the flaring has been managed much better, however.
I was told LGL because of all the stress ripples in his feet, which are only on the fronts which seems strange to me. I am going to do another post om my blog that shows all his feet as pictures from a while ago (it is much easier to upload pics there) tonight.

For those that don't like his trim and shoeing job, why don't you like if you have not already said? Is there a way you think I could work with this guy, who honestly, has been the most reliable yet. I have talked to him about barefoot and he just doesn't think Dutch will ever stay sound. As far as that goes I don't mind booting to ride but he needs to be pasture sound as soon as possible.

Because it is such a long story I am just going to say that being outside 24/7 does not work for my horse. He worries and runs the field, worse with a buddy than alone, he will literally jump the fence to get back to the barn in bad weather. Right now weather permitting he gets about 10 hours outside and ridden or hand walked min. 1 mile, when the footing outside dries that will increase.

I have spent the last two years learning so much about horse care despite the fact that I have been riding 20 years, like how bad sweet feed is, I really want to care for him in the best way to insure his ridability at 30.

So if he was your what would you do/ how would you approach this knowing that If I take him barefoot I might have to do all the trimming myself.

Picture post on blog after I ride.

[EqTrainer]

Rarely have I seen a foot that shows evidence of such hard work making the foot fit the shoe :(

[moukoyui]

bump bump

[Cherry]

Who's telling you LGL? The vet, the farrier????

Those ripples can also be caused by a change in diet.

I would recommend that you put your horse on a supplement for his feet. I like Farrier's Formula myself--it's kind of pricey, IMO, but I used it on my horse for a couple of months and found it to be helpful. If you can I'd use it for several months (it takes about a year for the hoof to grow out)--it can't hurt. Maybe wait six months and pull your horse's shoes. If you really want to go shoeless maybe put boots on your horse for turnout and riding?

Does your farrier pare your horse's soles down when he shoes him? If so, tell him to stop that practice. Those flares should be addressed when trimming too.

What does your vet say about your horse's feet? Does he ever say anything about how they're trimmed? I'm starting to think that vets either need more instruction on what a correctly trimmed hoof is supposed to look like or need to look at the horse's trim more closely when the horse comes up lame!

With the way your horse is trimmed upfront there's a good possibility that his stifle problem is related to the trim in the rear. It's nearly impossible to give good advice over the Internet in a case like this--you have to be there and see in person what's going on. You have to see how the horse's feet are landing, etc. Better pics of the feet might help.

Having ended up with a crippled horse after a bad trim I have to say that yes, it's possible to do a lot of damage with a poor trim! :eek: :yes:

Since your horse's feet are underrun in front it would be a good idea if the toe was shortened and beveled, and the branches (sides) of the shoe were longer to give support to the heels and put the feet under the horse's front end where it belongs instead of out in front of the front end.

I don't know, I just hate it when I'm paying a "professional" to do a job and I feel I have to tell him/her something he/she should already know.

I don't think it's a good idea for you to try trimming a horse if you've never done it before. Not saying you couldn't do it eventually and it's not rocket science but you need some training before you start working on them. You could get yourself in a heap of trouble pretty darn quick. Find someone competent who will teach you if you want to trim your own horse. I only did it after years of owning a Shetland pony and being left in the lurch by many, many farriers! But I had several good farriers teach me everything what I know....

[moukoyui]

I agree completely about paying professionals to do their job, then having to coach them on doing it properly.

I have loaded all the pictures from that day into an album.
http://s785.photobucket.com/albums/yy138/moukoyui/Dutch%20feet%20Feb%202010/

I hope this helps.

I know that he sets the shoe further back on the foot then rasps the toe to the shoe... hoe should he be taking the toe off?

[Thomas_1]

It looks to me like having the horse on a more regular trim cycle would only help.

For specific professional comment re his feet then you might want to join and post on:

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/

[moukoyui]

He is reshod and trimmed every 4 weeks in summer and 5 in winter. Does anyone see things about his back feet that could cause stifle issues? When hand walking or on the lunge he has a good heel first landing w-t, I have a hard time seeing in at the canter as I rarely canter on the lunge and usually its sue to freshness and we have a lot of bucking and jumping around.