correct the toeing-in youngster?

[tisor]

My 22 month old gelding is toeing-in slightly on the left fore. It seems worse now than it has been and he seems not to move well on it. His stride is shorter on the left fore and he turns more awkwardly on it.

Mind you, he is generally lanky and awkward and he’s growing REALLY fast. He’s about 16.1 now. if his butt stopped and he JUST grew into it, he’d be 17. The toe-in seems more noticeable right now than in the past. In the past I thought maybe he was toeing-in but decided it was his sock creating an optical illusion. Now though – it’s pretty clear.

Trim to correct or no? my farrier is in favor of being hands off and I hear arguments pro and con. This is one I’m not ever going to sell – I plan to jump him. I’ll show as an amateur and maybe hunt.

I’m not so concerned with aesthetics as I am with soundness.

Thoughts?

Pictures attached here: http://s773.photobucket.com/albums/yy17/tisor/NicksFeet/

[tisor]

And here is a video. this was in November.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5bW6ntmOC0

You can see him here awkwardly plant his left toe before the first trot pole and at the end you'll see the stiff turn on the left.

advice please?

[Samotis]

I am interested in this as well. Only because I have always heard that if a young horse toes out, its better then toeing in. I would like to know why and if as tisor is saying there is anything to fix this.

My colt will be 2 this month and while he is not as big as tisors colt, on 2 occasions (his inspection and at a show) I have heard that he toes out slightly on the right front. I can't for the life of me see it. How do you look for that and what ways can you tell if it is a growth thing or an actual problem?

Here is a pic of my colt last week. I just can't see it. It has to be there in some form if both the judge at a HB show and the inspector saw it at totally different stages in his life.

I don't think he moves different because of it, but I also don't even see it!!

Tisor, if he moves different on it I would definantly have the vet check his movement out. That way maybe even an x-ray could help to see if his foot is balanced, or just has been trimmed a weird way to make him move funky on it. He also has very short cannon bones where my colt is very tb'y, so I don't know if that can affect anything better or worse?!

Hope some people chime in here!!!

[quietann]

um, in most of those photos he looks like he's toeing OUT to me... My mare toes in -- is pigeon-toed.

[tisor]

samotis - i found a long chain on toeing out on coth. just search the term "toeing out" (i was looking for toeing in)

it states that the toeing out frequently corrects itself when the chest broadens.

opinions seem to be mixed on fixing

[tisor]

quiet ann. the photos are just bad. he was standing a bit splayed in a few of them.

[Samotis]

thanks I will search that.

He looks ok to me in the video. You should see my guy trot over poles! He trips over one, jumps one, walks one, then decide to turn around half way through. Your lucky he at least tries to travel in a straight line!

Just be careful if you do that in an arena with jumps. I almost got jumped on top of because Ace decided to bypass the pole and go jump one of the jumps next to me instead.:eek:

Last time I tried that.;)

I would at leas get his foot x-rayed, that will at least tell you if his angles are all ok. He could have a little something going on that could be fixed with a farrier. I didn't think he looked like he toed in either.

Good luck. Let us know what you find out!

[Coppers mom]

I really don't see anything wrong with him. He seemed like he was great through the poles, and the stiff turn to the left looks more like it was caused by him getting silly towards the end than discomfort.

[RyTimMick]

Under almost all circumstances you balance the foot, and let the horse compensate for the way he is growing. There is a difference if the entire limb is turned in/out or from the fetlock down. As was posted above, toed out will generally correct itself with age. I would not try any corrective meaures, as I believe soundness is your greatest concern. He might splint if he is toeing in a lot to compensate for the extra strain on the outside of his forearm, but that will only strengthen his leg if managed well. If he only flares in then he is wearing the ouside of his foot more due to being narrow at the base, this is not toeing in. This situation can correct itself with age. Moral of the story, balance the foot to the horse and let nature due the rest.

Tim

P.S. I just looked at the photo, and it appears as though his canon bone does not come out straight from his knee. This can still change as bone is still growing, it is most important in these cases to balance the hoof and do absolutely nothing corrective. If you do, then the bone will not adapt and he will forever be crooked. Leaving you with special shoeing jobs for the rest of his life. Have your ferrier look at the hoof from behind while he is standing on it. The heel should be level(same length under each bulb). You mentioned the optical illusion, it works on ferriers too. He will paddle more after shoeing correctly while he is growing with this situation.

[NancyM]

My 22 month old gelding is toeing-in slightly on the left fore. It seems worse now than it has been and he seems not to move well on it. His stride is shorter on the left fore and he turns more awkwardly on it.

Mind you, he is generally lanky and awkward and he’s growing REALLY fast. He’s about 16.1 now. if his butt stopped and he JUST grew into it, he’d be 17. The toe-in seems more noticeable right now than in the past. In the past I thought maybe he was toeing-in but decided it was his sock creating an optical illusion. Now though – it’s pretty clear.

Trim to correct or no? my farrier is in favor of being hands off and I hear arguments pro and con. This is one I’m not ever going to sell – I plan to jump him. I’ll show as an amateur and maybe hunt.

I’m not so concerned with aesthetics as I am with soundness.

Thoughts?

Pictures attached here: http://s773.photobucket.com/albums/yy17/tisor/NicksFeet/


The feet must ALWAYS be trimmed level and flat. The angles and pressures in the leg column will dicate the shape of the feet, but changing the shape/baring surface of the feet does not change the boney column of the leg, except to produce uneven pressure within the joints, causing damage and wear in those joints. Don't go there.

If the horse's legs are crooked (and they don't look too crooked to me in the pics), this is something that must be accepted by this age. Certain deviations may be corrected in severe cases earlier in life by surgical techniques. Other limb deformities can not be corrected, they can just grow that way for no particular reason, and that is the way they are going to be, and they are going to stay as sound as they stay.

I bred a filly as a race prospect. She was conformationally perfect as a foal. She got sick as a yearling, which effected her growth plates in various parts of her body. Her legs by 20 months of age were extremely crooked, through the knee, so bad, I almost didn't break her. My hubby/farrier took particular care to trim those feet "the way they wanted to be", keeping them level FOR HER, though they were not pretty to look at, her leg column dictated how her feet had to be. She raced until 8 years old (carefully) and retired sound and clean legged. She stands like a ballerina in first position (and floats over the ground so softly and naturally balanced ballerina). The crooked legs, if they get the care they need with level trimming (WITHOUT trying to "straighten" them by off balance trimming) and careful training are unlikely to be the cause of unsoundness in most horses, especially if they have the carriage to "go easy" on themselves. This comes from the build of the back and hips and shoulders, not the legs.

I would be unconcerned with any minor deviations you are seeing in your horse's legs, and for the most part, you are powerless to make any influence on what happens here. He does seem to be built quite upright though, front and back legs. If there are going to be any soundness problems with him, this may be the source of these problems.

[Go Fish]

The feet must ALWAYS be trimmed level and flat.

Pick up his foot...if he's toeing in, he'll be high on the inside. More frequent trims can help.

If he's crooked or offset in his limbs, there's not a whole lot you can do, but trimming can help balance the foot. If wear on the outside is excessive and frequent, you are probably dealing with a conformation issue. Shoes can also help slow down wear.

[JB]

I don't see toeing in? :confused:

As a horse matures, his chest will widen, and that will cause his legs to start an inward turn. That's why you want them a bit toed-out, from the chest, as babies.

Can you get any video of him walking straight to the camera? Camera at/near ground level, preferably walking on concrete.

[ljshorses]

As a farrier that mainly did corrective work and as a breeder who works on foals...I can't stress enough that people who buy youngstock need a farrier use to how horses grow and what is "normal" and what isn't is very important. Medial lateral balance is extremely important and depending on where a leg may be crooked depends on if, when and how much can be "fixed". Certain joints close sooner than others and if you try to correct something and joint is closed, you can damage the joint. Minor adjustments made in shorter trimming interval (2-3 weeks) can sometimes correct an incorrect youngster, but you need a farrier that knows what to do and many don't when it comes to youngsters.

Perfect example is how many youngsters can appear cow hocked as they grow. Many large breed youngsters need the medial lateral balanced checked often so as to prevent a "true" cow hocked condition. It is very easy for a big boned youngster to begin to wear the inside wall down faster than outside wall on hind feet as it is somewhat normal for them to point a bit outwards. If you make sure the medial lateral balance is correct and youngster trimmed as often as his growth dictates (some need trimming every 4 weeks when growing and some can go longer, individual needs should determine trimming intervals) then his legs will straighten as he matures. There has been youngsters I have had to do "corrective" trimming on and I can't stress enough how important it is to be careful and never get too aggressive with the trimming. It's better to take less off and trim more often because that gives the joint time to recover without overly stressing it all at once. Do your homework and find a competent farrier use to youngsters before doing anything to correct this youngster's feet. I personally in that video couldn't tell anything. Horse needs to be walked straight towards farrier and straight away from farrier and if possible trotted this way as well. Viewing from side is not any way to be able to accurately diagnose what's going on here.

[tisor]

thanks all. part of why you srent seeing the toeing in is because the photos are awful. my bad. the one that really shows it it the view of the feet from the side.

sounds like: stay balanced, dont mess with him, maybe have him trimmed more frequently, ask vet/farrier maybe xray if really concerned.

it's the stumbling on the right fore that concerns me. he always tyurns a bit hinky to the left and doesn't seem to place that foot the same. again, he is MY baby and i'm good an obsessed and masybe worryinmg too much.

he was also VERY sick as a colt, he had lawsonia - i wonder if this created the change.

[JB]

Has he ever had chiro or massage work done? Have you ever ground driven him? I'd be all on top of finding out why he's all hinky turning one way or the other, as that can have negative repurcussions in how his feet grow and how his body continues to develop.

[tisor]

no he hasn't. i did buy a massage at a silent auction for him but i dont know if it's a real pro equine therapist or some kid that wants to rub my horse.

my vet is on premises so i'll just ask him to evaluate him again with a focus on that left fore.

[tisor]

farrier - who is all about balance - is going tomorrow to see him first thing. I suggested he go up and down hill and turn left and right. I also suggested trims every 4 weeks vs 8 which makes tomorrow just right on time.

I'll then also let the vet have a look atr him next time I'm out. The farrier and the vet generally communicate pretty tightly. It's a good situation.

[ToTheNines]

Listen to those farriers who tell you to balance the foot to the xrays. My farrier trimmed my young one (toed-in) so that the coffin bone was flat to the ground. I had him xrayed and I forget where the crookedness was - something to do with the cannon bone (between the pastern and knee). My farrier was doing exactly the right thing for the horse even though he could have trimmed him to "look" better. I forget the details, but his coffin bone was flat and his pastern/ankle spaces were too, so no one was really worried about soundness as long as the farrier kept on doing him that way.

Just for fun once, I asked the farrier to trim him so he looked better to the eye from the front -- I think they call it "cranking". The horse felt squishy in the ankle to me immediately the next day or two. Never did that again!

[tisor]

ack yes i want him to be sound. i'm not showing conformation ;)

[ljshorses]

I definitely agree on x-rays. I can't tell you how many foundered horses I've worked on over the years but I never touched them until I had x-rays. If there is any question in your mind that the bones may not be aligned as they should, then it is well worth the cost of the x-ray and now with digitals, so much easier. I still consult for a few and have got beautiful digitals emailed to me! Amazing how far we've come since the scratchy, dark x-rays way back when. Best of luck to you, at least you are someone who actually pays attention to their horses feet. So many don't or for that matter pay attention to care of the teeth. Many people ignore feet and teeth untill there is a big problem or even too late to do much. You seem like a very caring owner and I wish you the best with your youngster.

[FLIPPED HER HALO]

When my boy was little he toed out some from the fetlocks down. It was noticed when the vet did his insurance exam. Vet suggested putting him on a trimming schedule of every 4 weeks to keep him balanced. It worked itself out. I keep him on a 6-7 week trimming schedule now that he's older (22 months tomorrow).

Nicky has always been SO butt high too. That tends to make them short strided up front since they are downhill.

[tisor]

OK, i'll get the xrays too! wonder if my insurance will cover it. it's going to be worth it. he'll never be for sale. he's a homebred and if he has to become a lawn ornament he goes back to the ranch where he was born. he'll stay in the family.

he's got it good this one.

[EqTrainer]

He is cute. His hairline is crooked on his RF. I'd get some rads shot and see what's going on.

[tisor]

hey there you are flipped. yeah he is super butt high and is going through another butt and long back phase again. it's terrifying. he can barely walk downhill

thanks eqtrainer. i'll pay attention to the hairline and get xrays and noelle, ive already got him on 4 weeks - starting tomorrow!

[FLIPPED HER HALO]

hey there you are flipped. yeah he is super butt high and is going through another butt and long back phase again. it's terrifying. he can barely walk downhill

thanks eqtrainer. i'll pay attention to the hairline and get xrays and noelle, ive already got him on 4 weeks - starting tomorrow!

Sorry, haven't been online much. Dial-up in the country STINKS. I'm switching to 3G this week so that should change. :yes: I'll send you a text message.

[tisor]

farrier out. yes he's toed in on the right and may also have been sore due to some very light thrush in the heel. (he's a bit of a hothouse flower my boy). we'll up trimmings to monthly and just work to keep him balanced. also noted tha he has very small feet for as ENORMOUS as he is. fingers crossed he winds up balanced.

now to xrays. i'll be out this afternoon and will likely see my vet. what are we even looking for? also, what would an xray result tell me that would change anything we're doing now?

[EqTrainer]

Nice digital xrays will tell you if his angles are correct.

Don't underestimate how sore/messed up thrush/fungal infections can make some horses feet. I bought a PSG schoolmaster once who did not pass the vet due to *thrush*. The vet said he was heel sore. Cleaned his feet up and resold him for $$$ more than I paid. Thrush!

[tisor]

thanx eq!