Sheared Heals... how do you shoe?

[Ozone]

Title says it all....

[PRS]

I don't. I've solved all my hoof related problems by returning their hooves to a natural barefoot state. No more white line disease and no more thrush. My horses get trimmed every 8 weeks (every 4 weeks for the horse with the club foot). I use hoof boots when we ride in rough or unknown terrain.

[EqTrainer]

I haven't had to shoe any of the sheared heel horses I have worked on but the idea is usually that the farrier floats the raised heel off the shoe completely.

[merrygoround]

Find a farrier who can balance the foot correctly. Once trimmed and balanced it can be shod.

[Ozone]

Find a farrier who can balance the foot correctly. .

Yep got the best farrier. What we are doing is Xrays first then upon Xrays my farrier is going to shoe how he sees fit.

I cannot go without shoes. The horse is a worker and has separation of the hoof wall on one foot, it woud crumble without a shoe on. There goes the thought of growing natural feet :)

I was just wondering what lengths - shoe wise people go for their sheard feet.

Has anyone Xrays before?

Horse has no thrush, did have some white line in his earlier days but been long gone. His frogs are deep and he does get some good abcess now and again.

[Patty Stiller]

I don't. I've solved all my hoof related problems by returning their hooves to a natural barefoot state. Not all horses can be best helped barefoot and a few horses are harmed by barefoot because some horses are dealing with existing pathologies which left barefoot will help cripple them. Maybe you have solved all YOUR horses problems with barefoot, but how many horses have you trimmed, and how many had sheared heels that you cured?
No more white line disease and no more thrush. I believe you but what about sheared heels? how many of those have you fixed by making them barefoot and how severe were they sheared when you began trimming them?

That said, balancing the hoof to evenly distribute the load through the bones INTERNALLY is the primary goal, then unloading the sheared side so the "pushed up" hoof wall and hairline can drop back into place with the bone. That unloading is most quickly done in most cases with special shoeing, floating the affected heel after the foot has been properly balanced.

[LMH]

Find a farrier who can balance the foot correctly. Once trimmed and balanced it can be shod.

Balance to what? the hairline? the coffin bone? the sole plane? the limbs?

Sorry to be picky but every internet hoof care person speaks of balance but no one seems to define to what he/she is balancing.

Well, patty did-she is balancing to load the bones evenly.:)

[Androcles]

Shoeing for sheared heels is actually one of those things that is easier to correct barefoot, because the shoeing tends to 'hold' the shear in place (even with the floated heel technique which can only be done so much and the shoeing cycle outlives the correction).
If the horse is BF, the pushed up side can be trimmed more frequently than the typical shoeing cycle, and the BF walls can wear naturally, speeding up the correction.
In some cases xrays aren't necessarily useful for making the correction because of all the soft tissue in the back of the foot that can be unbalanced, at a greater rate than the bone.

[caballus]

I agree with Androcles. Sheared Heels can be a long process to fix -- usually takes a full hoof growth cycle for the most severe. Yes, I've remediated many sheared heels - and left the horses barefoot. Less severe shears can be remediated in sometimes just a couple of trims. It all depends. It also depends on if the hoof was damaged in some way so the shear cannot actually be totally remediated but maintained.

Careful balancing, balancing, balancing and leveling.

Even IF shod.

[Foxhound]

Has anyone Xrays before?

Every shoeing, before and after.

My horse, Oscar, had severely sheared heels on both front feet, with the left worse than the right. He kept getting bruses that would leave him sore, and conventional farrier work just wasn't fixing it. I finally took him to Dr. Andrea Floyd at Serenity Equine (www.serenityequine.com), where she and her resident farrier, Matt Grimm, worked wonders to get Oscar's feet in correct balance and alignment.
Dr. Floyd uses film x-rays (not digital) as film will give a correct, 1:1 representation of the foot, whereas digital may result in some distortion. She measures the angles and carefully trims the foot (using the rasp, not the nippers) as well as a variety of shoes to put the bony column into alignment.
Currently, Oscar is in a "rocker" shoe, which helps get him off his heels.

If this is a persistant problem, you would be well served to find an equine podiatrist to work with your farrier to fix the issue. Oscar feels better than ever, and at 20 he is going strong and looking sounder than a lot of younger horses.

[JB]

Dr. Floyd uses film x-rays (not digital) as film will give a correct, 1:1 representation of the foot, whereas digital may result in some distortion.

:confused::confused:

[Ozone]

Every shoeing, before and after.

My horse, Oscar, had severely sheared heels on both front feet, with the left worse than the right. He kept getting bruses that would leave him sore, and conventional farrier work just wasn't fixing it. I finally took him to Dr. Andrea Floyd at Serenity Equine (www.serenityequine.com), where she and her resident farrier, Matt Grimm, worked wonders to get Oscar's feet in correct balance and alignment.
Dr. Floyd uses film x-rays (not digital) as film will give a correct, 1:1 representation of the foot, whereas digital may result in some distortion. She measures the angles and carefully trims the foot (using the rasp, not the nippers) as well as a variety of shoes to put the bony column into alignment.
Currently, Oscar is in a "rocker" shoe, which helps get him off his heels.

If this is a persistant problem, you would be well served to find an equine podiatrist to work with your farrier to fix the issue. Oscar feels better than ever, and at 20 he is going strong and looking sounder than a lot of younger horses.


Can you talk to me a bit about Oscar's rocker shoe? Is there a lift on one side? My horses' left is worse then the right. He's been like this for 14 years and just now is showing some slight off-ness from uneven impact in corners of the ring when riding. Before now he has had no special shoeing for this. I feel Xrays are something that should be done because if the farrier shoes my horse how he *thinks* she should be shod and he comes up worse after ... I don't see the point of playing guess when an X rays can tell all.

I agree with you on film oppose to digital. I want those Xrays clean as can be for proper shoeing.

ANDROC - What is BF? I probably sound stupid but never gonna know unless I ask :D

Caballus - You said "It also depends if the hoof has damage" that is what I am afraid of. I am actually scared crap-less of what will be found in his feet. My farrier said do you really what to know what's in there? I said if he was sound (corner wise) I would never pursue it but now I have to, the horse needs to be comfortable. Sheared heeels is one thing but if there is something else in the underlying ... oh my!

Thanks everyone I feel I have and am learning alot off all your posts!

[Rick Burten]

Shoeing for sheared heels is actually one of those things that is easier to correct barefoot, because the shoeing tends to 'hold' the shear in place (even with the floated heel technique which can only be done so much and the shoeing cycle outlives the correction).
Not necessarily or even usually true. A 'Z-bar' shoe or a 'Mushroom bar' shoe, or a heart bar shoe(with the heels appropriately floated and additional mechanical support provided for the bars, commissures and sole caudal to the true apex of the frog) have repeatedly proven their efficacy in remediating this problem.

Here is a read that might be helpful: http://www.equipodiatry.com/article_sheared_heels.htm
If the horse is BF, the pushed up side can be trimmed more frequently than the typical shoeing cycle, and the BF walls can wear naturally, speeding up the correction.
As with most all things equid, "It Depends".
In some cases xrays aren't necessarily useful for making the correction because of all the soft tissue in the back of the foot that can be unbalanced, at a greater rate than the bone.
Soft tissue becomes "unbalanced" as a direct result of inappropriate forces placed upon it by the rigid nature of bone and the outer hoof capsule not the other way round..

[Rick Burten]

Dr. Floyd uses film x-rays (not digital) as film will give a correct, 1:1 representation of the foot, whereas digital may result in some distortion.
Huh?????
http://www.checktb.com/en/home-mainmenu-1/digital-imagingintro/keydifferences.html
http://www.thailanddentist.com/digitalxray/kodak/rvg5000/digital%20radiography.pdf
She measures the angles and carefully trims the foot (using the rasp, not the nippers) as well as a variety of shoes to put the bony column into alignment.
Using nippers correctly is a fine motor skill, requiring specific hand-eye coordination ability and visual interpretation and understanding.
Perhaps, in this case, the doctor lacks said skill.....
Currently, Oscar is in a "rocker" shoe, which helps get him off his heels.
Are you sure? Do you understand the mechanics of and reason(s) for using a rocker (aka: banana/full roller motion) shoe? Does the good doctor? Dr. Ric Redden defines the rocker/banana/full roller motion shoe as a shoe that allows for self-adjustment of the palmer angle. Further, when correctly applied, the shoe does not allow for the affected heel to un-jam, and, if not used in conjuction with appropriate additional mechanical support, may cause the structures at the back of the hoof, particularly, the frog, to prolapse. Especially when the shoe is used in an egg-bar configuration.
If this is a persistant problem, you would be well served to find an equine podiatrist to work with your farrier to fix the issue.
To my knowledge, there is no recognized or accredited veterinary or farrier specialty called "equine podiatry". ;)

[Foxhound]

Using nippers correctly is a fine motor skill, requiring specific hand-eye coordination ability and visual interpretation and understanding.
Perhaps, in this case, the doctor lacks said skill.....

I'm pretty sure she DOESN'T. I will clarify, though. They do not use nippers on my horse, because he does not grow a huge amount of foot. On other horses, when appropriate, I'm sure Dr. Floyd and her farrier would have no problem using nippers.

Are you sure?

Yes, I am sure. It's right here on my bill, Full Rocker & hind Full Rocker. They are not egg-bar shoes. While I will freely admit that I do not understand all the mechanics, I can see the improvement in my horse's feet and way of going.
I'm pretty sure the Dr knows what she's doing.

To my knowledge, there is no recognized or accredited veterinary or farrier specialty called "equine podiatry". ;)

Interesting. I don't think that diminishes the work done by Dr. Floyd or by Dr. Reddin at his "International Equine Podiatry Center"

In 1983 he built the International Equine Podiatry Center (IEPC) in Versailles, Ky. It was the first podiatry center dedicated exclusively to the equine foot, and even today, it remains the only exclusive equine foot practice in the horse world.

Also, Dr. Floyd's co-author for her recent book on Equine Podiatry, Dr. Mansmann, is, among other things, Director of the Podiatry and Rehabilitation Services, North Carolina Equine Health Center at Southern Pines, Southern Pines, NC.
Here's a link to more info on the book:

http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/bookdescription.cws_home/701995/description#description

The tone of your response suggests you have some sort of issue with Dr. Floyd. On the other hand, judging by your posts, it seems you disagree with just about everything anyone else says about shoeing and hoof care.

[Rick Burten]

I'm pretty sure she DOESN'T. I will clarify, though. They do not use nippers on my horse, because he does not grow a huge amount of foot. On other horses, when appropriate, I'm sure Dr. Floyd and her farrier would have no problem using nippers.
Well, its nice to be sure.........
Yes, I am sure. It's right here on my bill, Full Rocker & hind Full Rocker. They are not egg-bar shoes. While I will freely admit that I do not understand all the mechanics, I can see the improvement in my horse's feet and way of going.
You responded out of context to what you wrote and what I questioned. to wit, you said, Currently, Oscar is in a "rocker" shoe, which helps get him off his heels. (I added the underlining to emphasis what I was asking about.)

Also, why does your horse need banana shoes all the way around???
I'm pretty sure the Dr knows what she's doing.
If "pretty sure" floats your boat, (shrug)........ If I had a dollar for every time someone uses the qualifier "pretty sure", I'd for sure be somewhere else rather than here tilting at windmills.....
Interesting. I don't think that diminishes the work done by Dr. Floyd or by Dr. Reddin at his "International Equine Podiatry Center"
Not germane. He can call it what ever he wants, it doesn't necessarily make it accurate. Sure does sound impressive though 'specially when you add that "international" to the mix......
In 1983 he built the International Equine Podiatry Center (IEPC) in Versailles, Ky. It was the first podiatry center dedicated exclusively to the equine foot, and even today, it remains the only exclusive equine foot practice in the horse world.
So?

Around the same time I founded the International Institute of Wholelistic(sic) Hoof Care. And, since that time, numerous horses under my gentle ministrations, as well as those of others who are Wholelistically(sic) inclined have enjoyed either on-going soundness or a return to soundness. Are you suitably impressed?
Also, Dr. Floyd's co-author for her recent book on Equine Podiatry, Dr. Mansmann, is, among other things, Director of the Podiatry and Rehabilitation Services, North Carolina Equine Health Center at Southern Pines, Southern Pines, NC.
So?

I'm writing a book of limericks and haiku's about hoof care and its providers/practitioners. Will that enhance my credibility? How 'bout when I'm asked to be on the Tonight Show? Or, based on my book, when I sign a movie deal?
The tone of your response suggests you have some sort of issue with Dr. Floyd.
Nope. Not in the least. I just tend to call a spade a spade and I don't well suffer those who do not engage in the practice of critical thinking.
On the other hand, judging by your posts, it seems you disagree with just about everything anyone else says about shoeing and hoof care.
So, I'm not a "yes man". I can live with that.

Did I mention that I don't suffer fools at all?

[Androcles]

On the other hand, judging by your posts, it seems you disagree with just about everything anyone else says about shoeing and hoof care.

So?

I'm pretty sure the Dr knows what she's doing.

If "pretty sure" floats your boat, (shrug)........ If I had a dollar for every time someone uses the qualifier "pretty sure", I'd for sure be somewhere else rather than here tilting at windmills.....
I'd be willing to guess that 'pretty sure' was said tongue in cheek, or sarcastically, not literally.

[matryoshka]

So far, every case of sheared heels I've encountered in the past 5 years have been on crooked legs.

The worst sheared heels I've seen were on a horse who also had canker. I think the sheared heels were actually more painful than the canker, because even after the surgery where the canker and surrounding tissue were removed down to the digital cushion, the horse was actually more comfortable immediately after the surgery. I believe this is because a very good farrier fashioned a bar shoe for him. Both fronts were shod in bar shoes to allow for hospital plates. I had already thought the horse needed a shoe to support the damaged heel, but it is hard to find a qualified farrier willing to shoe a draft horse in this area. The shoeing actually cost more than the surgery. The guy worked hard on those shoes, and he earned his fee. I had already trimmed him to try to correct the shear, but the shoe gave something I couldn't: support and relief from pain.

So, in this draft horse's case, the well-made bar shoe was very helpful for supporting the heel. No matter what the farrier or I did, the horse landed hard on his lateral toe. He did not load his hoof evenly, so I "managed" the heel as well as I could once the shoe was removed.

I've corrected milder cases barefoot. And every time I've seen sheered heels, the limb has had rotational deviations (ending up either toed in or toed out, with the pastern joints appearing misaligned).

On one horse, it was a hind hoof that was sheared. I was told the horse was lame due to founder. He was indeed foundered, but that sheared hind appeared to be causing more pain than the damaged front feet. It took a few trims to get the heel better. Again, it is a continual management issue, because the pastern joints are very crooked on that leg. If I don't keep after it, it will likely shear again.

[Androcles]

BF = Barefoot

[Tom Stovall]

Foxhound in gray, stuff deleted

They do not use nippers on my horse, because he does not grow a huge amount of foot. On other horses, when appropriate, I'm sure Dr. Floyd and her farrier would have no problem using nippers.

Using nippers correctly is a motor skill that takes a helluva lot of practice, it's not something one can do occasionally and achieve even rudimentary expertise.

Re: "rocker shoes"

It's right here on my bill, Full Rocker & hind Full Rocker.

Is the outer ground surface of each shoe closer to the coronary band than the inner, heel to heel? Unless it meets this simple criterion, whatever else it might be, it's not a FULL rocker shoe. (polo plates, other inner rims and similar configurations are examples of full rocker shoes)

[Foxhound]

Well, I'm sorry I ever responded to this thread. That will teach me to try to share my positive experiences with others.
I will admit that I am not an expert on shoeing. I just know that after 2 years of dealing with recurring hoof issues (sheared heels, brusing) I chose to take my horse to Dr. Floyd based on dramatic improvements I had seen in other horses that she and her resident farrier had shod. Thanks to them, my horse is now moving better than ever, and the recurring issues have resolved.
As for the hoof nippers, I'm sure that Dr. Floyd (who is a fully certified farrier herself, in addition to being a vet) and her farrier are fully capable of using all farrier tools as necessary.

[matryoshka]

Foxhound, these hoof threads are often rough-and-tumble. That doesn't mean people haven't benefitted from reading your posts.

[Patty Stiller]

As for the hoof nippers, I'm sure that Dr. Floyd (who is a fully certified farrier herself, in addition to being a vet)Hmmmm. Certified with what organization? Her bio on her website says nothing about being certified. (note...being a member of the AFA does not mean she is also certified with them. Anyone can be a member of that organization , farrier or not. :yes:)

[Androcles]

Hmmmm. Certified with what organization?

And not just certified, but 'fully' certified. :cool:

[Ozone]

Foxhound, I personally THANK YOU for your posts and value your opinion. :)

[AnotherRound]

Hmmmm. Certified with what organization? Her bio on her website says nothing about being certified. (note...being a member of the AFA does not mean she is also certified with them. Anyone can be a member of that organization , farrier or not. :yes:)

Well, just to give some data (I have no monkey in this hoo-haa) I looked on her site and saw these "accrediations" is what I will call them. Dunno what most of them mean, except for the American Veterinary thing and the letters she uses after her name: DVM are the familiar scratchings of many a veterinarian I have come across, so she may enjoy calling herself accredited. Foxhound used the work "certified", and that implies a certificate of completion of some course of study or other, not quite the same as a veterinary education, but what do I know. The following is what she has on her website and it seems appropriate to me:

Dr. Floyd is a member of the American Veterinary Medical Association, American Association of Equine Practitioners and the American Farriers Association. Dr. Floyd is an active member with the AVMA, AAEP, AFA, and also deeply involved with several civic nonprofit horse rescue organizations such as CFMEF, ReRun, CVHPA and Days End Farm Horse Rescue.

[Androcles]

Foxhound used the work "certified", and that implies a certificate of completion of some course of study or other, not quite the same as a veterinary education, but what do I know. The following is what she has on her website and it seems appropriate to me:

Dr. Floyd is a member of the American Veterinary Medical Association, American Association of Equine Practitioners and the American Farriers Association. Dr. Floyd is an active member with the AVMA, AAEP, AFA, and also deeply involved with several civic nonprofit horse rescue organizations such as CFMEF, ReRun, CVHPA and Days End Farm Horse Rescue.

No, certified does not imply a certificate of completion it asserts the individual has completed certification requirements including testing and apprenticeship. These memberships are not skills indicators, as someone else said.

And not for nothing but you seriously thought that quote from Irishcas is worth repeating in every one of your posts?

[Patty Stiller]

Foxhound used the work "certified", and that implies a certificate of completion of some course of study or other, In the farrier industry, "certified" generally means more than just a certificate of completion of a course. It is a test administered by an organization, independent of the course.
The following is what she has on her website and it seems appropriate to me:
Dr. Floyd is a member of the American Veterinary Medical Association, American Association of Equine Practitioners and the American Farriers Association. Dr. Floyd is an active member with the AVMA, AAEP, AFA, and also deeply involved with several civic nonprofit horse rescue organizations such as CFMEF, ReRun, CVHPA and Days End Farm Horse Rescue.All those mean is that she pays her dues to two veterinary organizations (as do most veterinarians) keeps up her veterinary accreditations as required by law, and pays dues to the AFA which is a farrier organization but she is not certified by the AFA. You, or anyone else can be a member of the AFA if you want to join, without even being a farrier.
Now don't take this for more than it is because she is a good veterinarian and does a lot of horses a lot of good. I am just clarifying that she is NOT a certified farrier as Foxhound thought she was. That's all. No more, no less.

[LMH]

I went to Dr Floyd's website.

In the midst of all this, no one seems to wonder about her surgical derotation procedure?

[Rick Burten]

I went to Dr Floyd's website.

In the midst of all this, no one seems to wonder about her surgical derotation procedure?
Other than a brief mention of a DDF tenotomy, I didn't find information about the surgical procedure. Could you post a link for me?

Thanks

[LMH]

Ah my bad rick-I somehow attached the two things together.

I mis-read. Thanks for pointing that out.

:o

[JackieBlue]

I know this is a dead thread, but I stumbled across it while searching for something else. Unless I am mistaken and she's changed her approach, Dr. Floyd does perform surgical derotation. I had it described to me in detail once as entailing removal of horn and suspension of the patient via pins in the cannons in hard casts after the teenotomy. I've personally seen these animals in their postsurgical state, pins and casts in place, feet suspended from weight bearing while all weight loads the transverse pins in the cannons.

[mustanglover]

My farrier has a lot of horses she works on like this, while not all are the same she has been having good results with the clog.

A friend I ride with down the road 2 of his horses are in clogs.

1 came dead lame had both hind hooves with sheared heels. The other one was just weeks away from being sent over the rainbow bridge due to navicular, but the clogs have made them both sound.