Which hindgut buffer supplements are out there? And your experience.

[Lieslot]

I'm looking for supplements that buffer the hindgut, not necessarily the stomach.

I know of Succeed, KER Equishure.
Are there any other suchlike products out there?

I'd be interested if you used any of those and what were the symptoms in your horse for which you decided to try that supplement.

Thanks mucho.

[Cowgirl]

For the hindgut, I like to use psyllium. The psyllium will absorb excess acid and help to provide a healing environment. Another thing I like is mucilenic herbs--like slippery elm and marshmallow root and add some L glutamine and a probiotic to it.

The symptoms were ulcers that got moderatly better with medicinal treatment, but were not completely cured. We assumed hindgut ulcers as the medicines do not work in the hindgut.

Recently I tried a supplement called Jerimiah's Ulcer Repulser, which is largely slippery elm, marshmallow root, carrot powder, fenugreek seed powder, L glutamine and pre and pro biotics. You make up a mash with it (I used a cup of alfalfa pellets and warm water). My horse LOVES it and seemed to respond well to it. Smartgut has similar ingredients, but not quite the same. I was a little leary of using the Ulcer Repulser since it's made up and bagged by a person and does not have fancy packaging, but it's been really good to use. I found it by googling, but she also sells it on ebay.

[Tux61096]

Have used it on a couple of horses and was very happy with the results. One horse showed so much improvement in 1 week that my vet commented on it.

[Lieslot]

Thanks,
I was wondering about SmartGut & Smart Digest Ultra, was reading up on those two last night.

The psyllium is an interesting thought too, but aren't the likes of a metamucil in humans used for constipation. He seems to need something that works the opposite way.

Most likely weather related, but since the latest snowstorms my horse is back to having 1/3 to 1/2 a cup of liqud preceeding every poo, but normal manure following.

He's totally normal, happy, eating, playing in the snow, other then the liquid preceeding the poo, nothing wrong, but I don't like it.
I did two days of 120cc BioSponge paste am & pm, but that made no difference.

[EqTrainer]

http://www.naturesfarmacy.com/store/details.php?prodId=116&category=27


Lieslot, this is the only product of that type that I have ever seen make a profound difference for my horses who needed something like that. Mapleshade is using it too and is "wowed" by it. Worth a try.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

Uckele's G.U.T contains L glutamine and pre/pro biotics. That's what I currently have my guy on but it's only been a week. I get it through SmartPak. You could always tell them what you're looking for and they could provide you with a supplement that meets your needs. They have GREAT customer service.

[TooManyChickens]

I've heard that Oat Flour works on the hind gut.. tried it on my guys and noticed a difference in a week. I give 1/4c 1x/day for maintenance now.

[Lieslot]

EqTrainer thanks for sharing that. I like the ingredients and I like the price, I'll put in an order.


Thx TooManyChicken & TBFancy, I'll keep those in the back of my mind too. I'll give this Equine DFM a go and see how he goes. If no improvement then I'll may try the GUT, I read some good things about L-glutamine.

[Cowgirl]

The key thing in EqTrainer's product that works really well is the sacchromycese (sp) boullardii. You can buy it in a health food store, usually refrigerated. The horse dose for it is smaller than the human dose--you actually only need 1 billion organisms (a pill is 5 bill usually) so you only need to give one pill. They use it for foal scours.

Psyllium will cause a healing environment and is a good thing to give in conjuction with any ulcer therapy, fwiw. The slippery elm and marshmallow root help to cause the digestive tract to increase the production of protective mucous.

Here is a link: http://www.ulcerrepulser.com/services.html

[TooManyChickens]

L-glutamine is in cabbage if you want to try the more natural route first... (and if it's combined with MSM, will produce glucosamine!) I had 2 showing minor symptoms about a month ago, and rather than scope/start on ulcer/gastroguard, I did a program of 1/2c aloe juice, 1/4 c oat flour, 1 cup chopped cabbage, and 1/2 c soaked pumpkin seeds, which are great for healing. I've seen a remarkable difference! I'm not saying this will work for every horse of course, this is just what worked for my guys. What is above I only gave in the am with grain and beet pulp, the aloe I also gave in the pm. Here's some great info if you want a nice read:

http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm

[Androcles]

http://www.naturesfarmacy.com/store/details.php?prodId=116&category=27


Lieslot, this is the only product of that type that I have ever seen make a profound difference for my horses who needed something like that. Mapleshade is using it too and is "wowed" by it. Worth a try.

Interesting. Any clues about the mechanisms of how this works? I ask because it appears to be mostly digestive enzymes which work on the foregut.

[Androcles]

I've heard that Oat Flour works on the hind gut.. tried it on my guys and noticed a difference in a week. I give 1/4c 1x/day for maintenance now.

Can you describe the difference in foregut symptoms vs. hindgut symptoms, i.e. how do you know what to treat?

[EqTrainer]

Interesting. Any clues about the mechanisms of how this works? I ask because it appears to be mostly digestive enzymes which work on the foregut.

Not sure. I do know that Cowgirl is right about that certain ingredient because my vet mentioned to me once, incidentally, that often horses who act ulcery but do not scope positive need it.

In the past I have tried lots of pre and probiotics, a fair amount of stomach soothers and whatnot and had concluded that it was all hooey and that I would stick w/Gastroguard and grass as my stomach-ill cures. I bought this because Tom King suggested their dog product for a dog w/digestive issues on the farm board and I noticed that they had horse products - and that I had never seen anything w/that "stuff* LOL in it or anything w/enzymes. I personally have to take digestive enzymes to eat a number of things and so...

it seemed worth a try. But I was not really optimistic. In my case I was able to cut the concentrated feed of two of my horses *in half* and the 32 year old horse here seemingly got 10 years younger.

So, in spite of my pessimism I have been pleasantly surprised. Mapleshade has had astounding results w/it, all her horses are OTTB and naturally tend to stomach issues, she says not only has it cut her feed bill back but they are eating more hay, drinking more water, quieter and happier and easier to ride. I'll be curious to see what happens when other people try it. Heck, I am thinking about trying it on myself :lol:

[Androcles]

Not sure. I do know that Cowgirl is right about that certain ingredient because my vet mentioned to me once, incidentally, that often horses who act ulcery but do not scope positive need it.

In the past I have tried lots of pre and probiotics, a fair amount of stomach soothers and whatnot and had concluded that it was all hooey and that I would stick w/Gastroguard and grass as my stomach-ill cures. I bought this because Tom King suggested their dog product for a dog w/digestive issues on the farm board and I noticed that they had horse products - and that I had never seen anything w/that "stuff* LOL in it or anything w/enzymes. I personally have to take digestive enzymes to eat a number of things and so...

it seemed worth a try. But I was not really optimistic. In my case I was able to cut the concentrated feed of two of my horses *in half* and the 32 year old horse here seemingly got 10 years younger.

So, in spite of my pessimism I have been pleasantly surprised. Mapleshade has had astounding results w/it, all her horses are OTTB and naturally tend to stomach issues, she says not only has it cut her feed bill back but they are eating more hay, drinking more water, quieter and happier and easier to ride. I'll be curious to see what happens when other people try it. Heck, I am thinking about trying it on myself :lol:

Well based on this it sounds like your success with it (in particular enabling the cutting back of concentrated feed) sounds like it is primarily based on optimizing digestion in the foregut, not the hindgut. Grain is digested enzymatically in the foregut, and forage in the hindgut with probiotics. True the sacchromycese (sp?) sounds like a probiotic for the hindgut. Lactic acid bacteria? No idea where that works. Anyway this is why I'm asking what symptoms people are seeing and trying to cure. Also did you try other enzymatic products, that did not work as well, or was this the first one?

I do wish these mfrs. were more specific in describing what aspects of digestion and what symptoms they're addressing but I guess they have to keep it close to the vest lest competitors copy them. In the meantime we try things by trial and error.

[TooManyChickens]

I decided to treat both.. research I found said that if your horse is showing stomach ulcer symptoms, he/she may have hindgut ulcers as well. I think the reports said up to 60% or so of performance horses may have colonic ulceration. Most of what is on the market is for keeping the acid down in the stomach. Probiotics are excellent for the entire GI tract. My plan of action was to do the cabbage/pumpkin seed/aloe juice/oat flour treatment for 60 days, and then the oat flour for maintenance, along with something like U-Gard or Smart Gut (around $11 and $33/mo respectively from Smart Pak). I've heard good things about Neigh-Lox, but it's very expensive. Pro Bios is a great, inexpensive supplement as well. (A 5 pound bucket is around $33 and will last you in the neighborhood of 7 months).

[Androcles]

I decided to treat both.. research I found said that if your horse is showing stomach ulcer symptoms, he/she may have hindgut ulcers as well.

Both? What I do not understand is all the attention on the stomach and the hindgut and none on the foregut. Generally speaking. Like EqT's product, it seems by chance that it was found and treated the foregut, while trying to treat something else.


I think the reports said up to 60% or so of performance horses may have colonic ulceration. Most of what is on the market is for keeping the acid down in the stomach.
How can horses have stomach and hindgut ulcers but nothing in the foregut?

Probiotics are excellent for the entire GI tract.
How so?

[Androcles]

The key thing in EqTrainer's product that works really well is the sacchromycese (sp) boullardii.

What does it do? It sounds like the enzymes are the key things actually.

[EqTrainer]

What does it do? It sounds like the enzymes are the key things actually.


My vets comment on it was that it was given to horses w/bacterial infections in their digestive tracts... the horse we were discussing was not mine so I did not have all the details but I know he was scoped and found to NOT have ulcers (but the usual ulcer symptoms) but was believed to have had a bacterial infection. He was prescribed, by NCSU, nothing but the thing no one can spell correctly (my bucket is in the barn).

I hope my memory has got that right.

I would also think the enzymes were a big factor.

For me, I just wanted to try it and see if I would see any difference in a group of horses who were considered, for the most part, healthy. The horses whose feed I was able to reduce were both young, growing horses, one who had been stressed by racing and then a surgery that same year. The other one was just a big baby who ate a lot of food IMO. The old horse is, well, old.

Interesting to note also that when I ran out and took them off of it I did not see any return of the need for more feed in the young horses - even to date they are thriving on significantly less concentrates while still growing. The old horse I will put back on it after his Powerpack and tooth floating at the end of the month - although he did not backslide significantly, it was a big change in him and worth continuing IMO.

It is Mapleshade who probably has the most interesting info about feeding it and ulcers, maybe I can get her to check in.

[Androcles]

My vets comment on it was that it was given to horses w/bacterial infections in their digestive tracts... the horse we were discussing was not mine so I did not have all the details but I know he was scoped and found to NOT have ulcers (but the usual ulcer symptoms) but was believed to have had a bacterial infection. He was prescribed, by NCSU, nothing but the thing no one can spell correctly (my bucket is in the barn).



Interesting. Since bacteria populate a healthy gut and are the organisms that enable digestion, I wonder what constitutes an 'infection' by them.

[EqTrainer]

Interesting. Since bacteria populate a healthy gut and are the organisms that enable digestion, I wonder what constitutes an 'infection' by them.

It is a great question. The horse she was talking about - they did a biopsy of his stomach lining.

I will see her at the end of Feb. and can ask her more about it, it certainly is interesting!

[Cowgirl]

Everything you ever want to know about sacchromycese boullardii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii It not only is an excellent probiotic (yeast organism) but it has an anti-inflammatory effect on the bowel and is also used to treat irritable bowel syndrome in humans. My vet uses it for foals. It is wonderful for dogs when they have intestinal problems.

I don't think there is a way you can predetermine whether the ulcers are stomach or intestinal. The scopes only go into the stomach. The drugs only treat stomach ulcers, so if your horse has persistent ulcers, likely there are intestinal problems as well. For that, the only drug I am aware of is sulfacrates and then psyllium and probiotics. The issue for me seems to be, and the idea behind products like succeed, is that while the drugs create a situation in which healing can occur by stopping the cycle of excess acid, they do not otherwise help healing or recondition the digestive tract to prevent it from happening again, and therefore there are products like succeed, designed to keep the entire digestive tract in tip top shape.

I really like the thinking behind some of the products, like the one I linked to, where they use a combination of mucilgenic herbs (that not only coat the stomach to help the ulcers heal, but also prompt the digestive tract to produce it's own mucosal lining AND tends to protect and encourage the probiotics). I think if you have ulcers and you just do gastrogard, you take a risk that they will recur if you don't help the body restore it's balance. When I treat for ulcers, I do a week of drug treatment and then add psyllium for a week and then add the muciligenic herbs, l-glutamine and probiotics. By the time the treatment is completed, I've given my horse the best possible chance for recovery.

My ulcer prone horse had hindgut problems and the first time we had stubborn ulcers (two months of gastrogard), we then gave him sulfacrates and a month of psyllium, which cured the problem. Psyllium turns into a gel in the intestines, taking sand away with it, but also absorbing any excess acids, etc. BUT, it can also disrupt the probiotic balance, so you should give those too. The L-glutamine, cabbage or aloe vera gel is used to heal the lesions themselves. Each individual item in these supplements has a purpose.

You can buy all of this stuff from http://www.herbalcom.com and make your own supplement, but it's not convenient.

Different uses for psyllium: http://www.nomorehorsecolic.com/colicresearch.html

[sublimequine]

snip!

You can buy all of this stuff from http://www.herbalcom.com and make your own supplement, but it's not convenient.

Different uses for psyllium: http://www.nomorehorsecolic.com/colicresearch.html

Did you actually read the full article in that second link? They are talking nonsense! :eek:

"A controlled study performed in Japan on rats indicates that psyllium husk
“may shift the fermentation of amylase cornstarch diets from the caecum
to the distal colon, leading to higher butyrate concentration in the distal
colon...”7 Butyrate was the natural pain killer produced by the animal. This research suggests that ColiClenz™ Plus may produce the natural anti-inflammatory and has application in situations when an anti-inflammatory or painkiller is applicable."

... uh, since when do rats = horses? And the fact that it says it "MAY" shift the fermentation, blah blah, basically means they don't know for sure if it does or not.

"ColiClenz™ Plus may have efficacy for the treatment of gastric ulcers and
toxic enteritis in horses. An experimental study indicates that psyllium husk
could protect the intestinal barrier function in rats.9 Another study shows
that the severity of diarrhea induced by infection with entertoxigenic E. coli
is significantly reduced with the administration of psyllium."

..again, rats =/= horses. :confused:

"Psyllium does not interfere with the absorption of nutrients from the
gastrointestinal tract.11 A study, performed on humans, concludes that
consumption of psyllium does not adversely affect either mineral or vitamin A and E concentrations.12 Hence, ColiClenz™ Plus can be administered without fear of compromising the nutritional status of the horse."

Humans =/= horses, either! Saying that a product has such and such effect on one species doesn't say SQUAT about what effect it has on another species. That's like saying some horses do great on a copper supplement, so it's definitely okay for sheep! (Nope, it'd kill the sheep! :lol: )

"There are numerous known causes of laminitis, including feeding high grain or starch diets, large drinks of cold water, concussion from working on hard surfaces, retained placenta after foaling, overweight, and sudden access to lush grass. Laminitis can also occur as a complication after surgery."

That's an old wive's tale that has been debunked for years, it's not science! :no:

"There is indication that the administration of ColiClenz™ Plus can delay
the absorption of the high-starch content of grain and grasses and possibly avert laminitis."

Since WHEN is psyllium a treatment for laminitis?! :confused:

---

I'm sorry, but that article just angers me. It's full of nothing but psuedoscience in order to SELL A PRODUCT, not to actually offer scientific information. :mad:

[Cowgirl]

LOL! You are right, lots of hype in that to sell a product. But it doesn't change my mind that psyllium has a positive use for treatment of hindgut ulcers. I have experienced it myself with my old guy, and it's what my vets recommended.

I should have spent more time looking for a better article that addressed psyllium and ulcers, not much out there though.

[sublimequine]

LOL! You are right, lots of hype in that to sell a product. But it doesn't change my mind that psyllium has a positive use for treatment of hindgut ulcers. I have experienced it myself with my old guy, and it's what my vets recommended.

I should have spent more time looking for a better article that addressed psyllium and ulcers, not much out there though.

I have no problem with folks who use psyllium, for whatever digestive issue. But that article was just horrible. :lol:

[Androcles]

Everything you ever want to know about sacchromycese boullardii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii
I don't think there is a way you can predetermine whether the ulcers are stomach or intestinal. The scopes only go into the stomach. The drugs only treat stomach ulcers, so if your horse has persistent ulcers, likely there are intestinal problems as well.


I would think that ulcerative symptoms would differ depending on whether they are in the stomach or intestines; what I don't understand is not distinguishing between the foregut and hindgut in treatment, since the method of digestion and the foodstuffs that are digested, are completely different between the two, therefore enzymes would only help with the foregut and probiotics with the hindgut. At least that's what seems logical.

[Cowgirl]

I think that is because you can only get a definitive diagnosis (through scoping) for stomach ulcers--although I have read of a fecal test (Succeed?) that tests for blood in the stool--but I don't know how they would determine the source of the blood....

[myLittleArabPony]

The key thing in EqTrainer's product that works really well is the sacchromycese (sp) boullardii. You can buy it in a health food store, usually refrigerated. The horse dose for it is smaller than the human dose--you actually only need 1 billion organisms (a pill is 5 bill usually) so you only need to give one pill. They use it for foal scours.

Psyllium will cause a healing environment and is a good thing to give in conjuction with any ulcer therapy, fwiw. The slippery elm and marshmallow root help to cause the digestive tract to increase the production of protective mucous.

Here is a link: http://www.ulcerrepulser.com/services.html

Timely thread for me too - my horse is having virtually the same symptoms as Lieslot's horse. I'm thinking of ordering the ulcer repulser, but in the mean time, I ran to the health food store today and bought psyllium, slippery elm, marshmallow root, and l-glutamine (already have some probiotics) Can you tell me what dosage you use for slippery elm, marshmallow root and l-glutamine for a horse? I'm having trouble finding dosage info online. Thanks!

[Cowgirl]

I don't think that there are scientific dosages out there. Here's information on slippery elm dose: http://www.petpathics.com/Taking-Slippery-Elm-Powder.html You need to mix the herbs with water and if you give it over feed, I soak so that it becomes a mash. I just mix the herbs in equal amounts and dose so that they get a tablespoon of each--if you have four things in your mix (the slippery elm, marshmallow root, L glutamine and probiotics) then give two one ounce scoops of it. If your horse is having an issue, then you should do it twice a day for several weeks, if you can. If you are treating with medicine, then once a day is probably fine. If your horse is not responding after a few days, then I would try increasing it before trying something else. It does take about a week to see a turnaround.

[Ritazza]

I don't think that there are scientific dosages out there. Here's information on slippery elm dose: http://www.petpathics.com/Taking-Slippery-Elm-Powder.html You need to mix the herbs with water and if you give it over feed, I soak so that it becomes a mash. I just mix the herbs in equal amounts and dose so that they get a tablespoon of each--if you have four things in your mix (the slippery elm, marshmallow root, L glutamine and probiotics) then give two one ounce scoops of it. If your horse is having an issue, then you should do it twice a day for several weeks, if you can. If you are treating with medicine, then once a day is probably fine. If your horse is not responding after a few days, then I would try increasing it before trying something else. It does take about a week to see a turnaround.

Do you have a reference for needing to mix the herbs with water? Have a gelding in my barn whose owner is trying the slippery elm/aloe/marshmellow root and, aside from the aloe, has been feeding it dry. He is eating MUCH better and looking brighter at this point, some weeks in.

[Eventer55]

Honey powder, corn gluten, aloe vera, cabbage powder, Vitamin C, MSM, carrot powder, cinnamon, apple pectin, grape seed extract, slippery elm, brewer's yeast, licorice powder, zinc glutonate, flowering tops of Anthemis nobilis L., xanthan gum, sodium chloride, potassium chloride, citric acid, silica gel, sodium benzoate.

Her are the U7 ingredients, can someone comment on the difference between this and any other aole, slippery elm stomach products. And how this would be helpful with hind gut problems, as opposed to mixing your own or other similar products.

[Cowgirl]

Do you have a reference for needing to mix the herbs with water? Have a gelding in my barn whose owner is trying the slippery elm/aloe/marshmellow root and, aside from the aloe, has been feeding it dry. He is eating MUCH better and looking brighter at this point, some weeks in.

I don't know that you HAVE to mix it with water--but look at the link I already provided. What happens is that when it gets wet, these muciligenic herbs turn into a gel like substance. So when the horse eats the powder dry, it can be somewhat hard to swallow and may in fact pull water from the gut. I mix mine with water and make a mash with a cup of alfalfa pellets BUT I have a friend who feeds slippery elm dry. She only feeds a teaspoon of it though. I think I feed about a tablespoon of it.

[Cowgirl]

Honey powder, corn gluten, aloe vera, cabbage powder, Vitamin C, MSM, carrot powder, cinnamon, apple pectin, grape seed extract, slippery elm, brewer's yeast, licorice powder, zinc glutonate, flowering tops of Anthemis nobilis L., xanthan gum, sodium chloride, potassium chloride, citric acid, silica gel, sodium benzoate.

Her are the U7 ingredients, can someone comment on the difference between this and any other aole, slippery elm stomach products. And how this would be helpful with hind gut problems, as opposed to mixing your own or other similar products.

Convenience is why you buy a supplement rather than mixing your own herbs. The licorice root and cinnamon might be a little hard on the tummy. There is some evidence I read somewhere where licorice root, commonly used for ulcer treatment, actually has a negative effect. http://www.herbalcom.com has a compantion horse herbs site and mixes one for you: http://www.herbnhorse.com/?source=overture

They sell both the apple pectin and carrot powder--both do about the same thing in that they add a soothing aspect.

Look into fenugreek seed powder as well as slippery elm/marshmallow root/L-glutamine and probiotics.

[Lieslot]

Waw, thanks for all the links. Been very informative.

I will report back on how he's doing on the DFM.

[spacehorse]

Lots of good info in this thread. Bumping for an update?

[Lieslot]

He's totally fine again, can't say if the DMF sorted him or not, because the snow is gone now, which seems to be the trigger for him.
Real update will be for next snow season.