QH folks- King Bloodlines

[eventermomoh]

I

[pintopiaffe]

Well, in a way, he's kind of like Leo that you almost can't find a QH without him... ;)

But he was sort of the "prototype." It.

That pedigree is a wee bit too close for my personal tastes... I wouldn't mind it as much if the damlines were further outcrossed... but... it looks like they were breeding for a particular skill (reining,cutting) or a very specific trait like Dun?

We had heavy King breeding at the Ranch, and most of our horses were round, even-to-uphill, kind temperaments (they had to be--working horses are culled if they aren't, so I can't *necessarily* attribute that to any particular bloodline) great feet/legs/soundness. Smaller, but stout. Most in the 14-15h range, but could carry a big man and western saddle all day without complaint.

I really don't see any other names I recognize in that pedigree... but it's so close, that's not a surprize. I've been out of QH/APHA breeding specifically for more than a decade now myself...

[Go Fish]

I'm not seeing anything in that pedigree that I recognize, either. What are you planning on using the horse for?

The King ranch breeds many horses each year for ranch work. While they breed QHs, their primary business is raising cattle. Their top show horses don't contain that pedigree, as far as I'm aware.

[eventermomoh]

s

[eventermomoh]

Do the close bloodlines pose potential health risks?

[Tamara in TN]

I am considering a 7 yo QH heavy in King stock. Anyone have experience with his line?
eta: complete pedigree
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/starfires+echo

it looks like he's just bred for color and not much more

Tamara in TN

[shawneeAcres]

This horse is very inbred, however, it does not appear (since he is a gelding ) that he is going to be bred, and if he is sound and healthy, then I see no reason to worry about it. Yes, some bloodlines predispose the horse to certain heriditary diseases that must be present in homozygous form to be apparent. The one condition that I am aware of in King bred horses is HERDA. however, if this horse had HERDA it would have been more tha apparent at this point, and most likely he would be daed, if not then BADLY scarred. The other thing that is prevalent in some QH bloodlines is PSSM so you may want to have the horse testted for this condition. Otherwise, I would not be worried about the close inbreedign. King horses tend to be quite tough and hardy.

[eventermomoh]

All very interesting, thank you!

[Movin Artfully]

This is not a well-bred horse and is not at all representative of how educated QH people run their breeding programs. Who crosses direct sons and daughters for GENERATIONS? :uhoh:

I would not value this pedigree much more than if I were looking to buy grade. The closest horse with a show record is 5 generations back from 1942. This is trainwreck, backyard, ignorant reproduction at it's best with an obsession with "color" and "foundation breeding".

I agree that as a gelding...minus obvious health defects...there is not reason to not buy if he is what you want...however if you are buying directly from the breeder- I would personally not support someone who ran a program like this.

There are a lot of very well-bred, well-trained QHs for sale in this market that are very reasonably priced. I would encourage you to keep your options open.

[Ibex]

Holy crap, is that normal for a QH program??? :eek:

[Tamara in TN]

Holy crap, is that normal for a QH program??? :eek:

only for color breeders....
as evidenced by a near relative pic :
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kings+tsunami

everything a QH ought not be,but it's ok no doubt, cause somebody got a buckskin and Lord knows the color of the horse under you makes you a real cowboy;)


the OP has unknowingly presented a really disappointing pedigree to read, as it's just so obvious that nothing else really came into play...and should not really be viewed as common or sought after:no:

I'm all about yeller or buttermilk or zebra stripes...I'm even all about foundation horses (yep held a membership long ago) but hell fire, there has to be more to the animal than his coat color



Tamara in TN

[pintopiaffe]

I didn't see the colour thing...that was a guess. I figured one of 'em must've been a damn big ol' winning... something... even halter... :uhoh: :eek: :uhoh: :lol:

THAT is what gives us crazy colour breeders a bad name. :dead:

Now, you have to be careful when you go way back and see something like "Wagoner Mare" a bunch of times, because that could be a *different* mare each time (or not) but...

Look at what is in front of you. If it's a nice horse, that moves well, at the right price, get it.

[Amoroso]

Interesting that this thread came up. We recently purchased a gelding for my husband to ride, QH. We didn't get a copy of the papers ahead of time, and we've now realized that the breeder bred her stallion to his half sister (they are out of the same mare). I couldn't believe it, that is just ridiculous in my opinion.
However, our gelding is just that a gelding. He is sane and sound and will pack my husband around on the trails just fine. I'm personally amazed that AQHA will allow that type of "inbreeding" and this wasn't for colour by the way.

[hunterjumper22]

I have a 94% Foundation QH with King bloodlines. He is extremely athletic and very fast. He has out ran a few of my TBs. Mine is very brave and loves to be worked. He is quite competitive also. He was bred to be a cutting horse, so he does have an attitude. He isnt the friendliest horse to be around, but he is great under saddle. He is used for civil war reanactments, so he is used to gun fire, swords, and canons going off. Here is his bloodlines.


http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kings+skipa+pride

[Coyoteco]

As mentioned, I have his tested for HERDA. Other than that just enjoy him.

[shawneeAcres]

I am certainly not condoning this type of breeding, however, I think there are many assumpitons going on here, and I think that is unfair. There are many ranches and quitefamous ones (think SHOEMAKER bred horses here) that are heavily line/inbred, and many ranch breeding progrmas have no show records. That wouldn't bother me, if I was looking for a nice horse for pleasure, trail or ranch work. Perhaps tis is a very bad breeding program, or perhaps the breeder is trying to "fix' some characteristics by doing this type of breeding, and I am not saying they are right. BUT I think it really is pretty snobbish to come on here, slam a breeding program that you absolteuly know nothing about, assuming it is strictly a color programme (which it may be, don't know). Simply saying, that this type of thing is what ruins peoples reputation on the internet and that noone here has anything concrete to base their assumptions on, or if you DO then state them, other than what you "think" is happening. I think the OP has been warned regarding the possible heriditary conditions, and other than that, if the horse is a nice individual why NOT buy him, if he fullfills the OP's needs?? FYI testing for HERDA in a horse this age if he is broke to ride, wouldn't be necessary. If he had HERDA, he would not be being ridden, he would be six feet under! Oh yes and the Waggonner Mare is a famous foundation mare in QH breeding, her exact bloodlines were not known, but she contributed quite a lot to the breed.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=shawneeAcres;4674232] BUT I think it really is pretty snobbish to come on here, slam a breeding program that you absolutely know nothing about, assuming it is strictly a color programme (which it may be, don't know).

I was one of the first NFQH association members in the long ago(I had a nice Poco Bueno stallion who died in 1999) think 1996 ish...I quit them when it became apparent that among the active breeders the % of blood and color were their main concerns....

that and internal squabbles over who was "worthy" to be entered in the studbooks....oh my, what hair splitting and nastiness

I knew EXACTLY who this stallion was who appears on every single grandsire line...I did not even have to look up his picture...like a Tb person would know of course,Sadlers Wells or a Saddlebred person would know Wing Commander...

I cannot think that I have ever tried to be snobbish or nasty to anyone here...but that was intentional line breeding for the grandsires color....

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=hunterjumper22;4674166]I have a 94% Foundation QH with King bloodlines. He is extremely athletic and very fast. He has out ran a few of my TBs.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kings+skipa+pride

see, now as a nice balanced example you have King on top and Skipper W horses on the bottom...with animals scattered all around the papers with at least some accomplishments here and there...

the Shoemaker program was set up completely on the involvement of owner Hank Wiescamp as an Army Remount purchaser and when you see Skipper W you are not seeing a horse really but a program of about 40 plus years of Army improvement programs....lots of super TB remount stallions and blood there...


so from a phenotype point of view in that pedigree, you have short thick strong legged bunchy muscled stallion stock on top of a bit more leggy smooth muscled TB derived stock...which is generally not a bad way to go (think Welsh cobs or ponies on Tb mares in the english world but within one breed )


one of the reasons that I was so annoyed with the foundation movement (even though my horse scored 99%) was the total disregard of the "evils of" the Army (TB) blood but the utter crisis when Three Bars (TB blood) was added....that seemed a bit protectionist (for the actual founding parties of the association) in my mind and showed they wanted to promote the stock in their fields and not the overall animal....

Tamara in TN

[eventermomoh]

t

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=eventermomoh;4674712]Thank you- I appreciate your honest opinion. I too thought he looked inbred, but so do most pedigrees I look at, so what do I know!? I am more curious to characteristics or health issues present in a King line then breeding stock.

as a line from King...no nothing...as a line from that Grandsire..."if" he had something wonky,in/with him, you may have it (or the potential for it)quadrupled it in the offspring you are looking at...

or not...

do I think his head will slough off tomorrow ? no...do I think you'll probably get on just fine with him? sure...but his papers are what they are....:)

best

Tamara in TN

[kypeep]

OP, my advice (for the nickel it's worth) is to buy the horse in front of you. If he's sound, you like him, and he suits your needs, he is a good one for you no matter the pedigree. He's a gelding, so that is a non-issue.

Just wanted to add that Hunterjumper's horse - no slur intended by any means - is not cutting bred by today's standards and I hope was not sold to her/him as such. Also, not sure about "attitude" in cutting horses - most cutting trainers aren't much into horses with a 'tude, in my experience, because they have so many to train and little time for each one. Unless a prospect is a great one, a bad 'tude is likely to get them kicked out of a cutting program. If that happens to enough of the offspring of any one bloodline, word gets around in the cutting world. Pretty soon, cutting people aren't buying those offspring anymore and interest in the bloodline dies, at least in the quite small world of cutting people. There are a few lines that cutting people will take a chance with about 'tude because they produce such athletic horses, but by and large, the cutting bloodlines are weeded out for being slow or difficult to train, whatever the reason.

Now, plenty of today's cutting lines have a bit of a motor, I will more than admit that. However, no more so IMO than you would want in a good dressage horse and certainly an excellent quality in a horse expected to be as quick as a cutter. They also can be somewhat spooky and "looky," particularly as youngsters. That's also a quality that's not bad - you want a cutting horse to notice when a cow twitches its ear, so you would expect them not to miss anything around them.

Again, not trying to be a smart alec, just educational in case anyone is interested (perhaps not, LOL).

[Chuckles]

I would say,especially in this case, buy the horse not the papers:).

It looks like the breeder is selecting for color, and yes there are associations for horses of a specific color that have their own shows etc. (PHBA, there are two buckskin/dun associations-but I would butcher their initials).

It's not the close King breeding that concerns me, it is the double bred (line bred) Kings Starfire breeding - way too close.

The HERDA thing is linked to Poco Beuno, which this horse does go back to. But as was stated before, symptoms start when breaking out due to saddle pressure. This horse could be a carrier I suppose, but that doesn't matter because it is a gelding.

If this horse suits your needs, the pedigree will probably not give you much insight to behaviors and health issues. If you like him, get him and enjoy!

[Movin Artfully]

[QUOTE] as a line from King...no nothing...as a line from that Grandsire..."if" he had something wonky,in/with him, you may have it (or the potential for it)quadrupled it in the offspring you are looking at...

Thank you, Tamara for explaining much better in your posts #17 and #20 what my exact thoughts/concerns were. Just because I question the breeders- does not mean this is not a nice horse for you.

kypeep & chuckles---well said.

Truth be told...if you have found the perfect child's/husband-safe horse...ultimately who cares if it is the product of being crossed with a cow ;)

If the temperament suits you and the horse vet checks and xrays...get him if he is what you want. There is a great saying that "You can't ride the papers"...and for a trail horse/safe doo-dah gelding...his papers are not that inherently important if he is proven and fits what you want him to do.

However- Keep in mind that if he does not work out for some reason and you decide to sell...his papers will not be particularly attractive to knowledgeable QH buyers.

[kypeep]

Thanks, Movin Artfully. If a gelding exhibits the physical, temperament, and performance traits I'm looking for, then I don't quibble about bloodlines. It may not be a horse I would have bred myself, but in the case of a gelding I always figure best to buy what you see. I've seen many a horse that didn't "live up" to bloodlines and equally as many with talent way beyond what a bloodline would indicate. All boils down to OP's needs and intended use.

[RyTimMick]

If it helps any, I have a 100% foundation QH mare I had purchased as a foal for reining 5 years ago. I have since given up on that dream (time?) and just ride her from time to time. She is Blackburn on Mr. San Peppy. I didn't know much about the Blackburn line until I looked into her. Poco Lena is the product of Poco Bueno on a Blackburn mare. Poco Lena is one of the most prolific QH lines in cutting history. Poco Bueno was a King Ranch stallion, and Blackburn was for awhile. It turns out many of the Blackburns were numbered to help track them, as AQHA hadn't really taken off yet. You might recognize that King was also numbered as King P-234. Although this horse is very inbred, it is very consisitent with a lot of the breeding done in the midwest. There aren't many famous names, but if you aren't breeding it, I agree with the OP that said to look at the horse in front of you. I don't agree with the OP who said that cutters must not be difficult. They can be very tenacious and challenging, they are not your Hunt seat horse.

Tim

[Go Fish]

I don't agree with the OP who said that cutters must not be difficult. They can be very tenacious and challenging, they are not your Hunt seat horse.

I agree...my best cutters were pistols. At the very least, they were tempermental. They have to be able to think for themselves. This can cause some rather large "arguments."

[rmh_rider]

According to AERC (American Endurance Ride Conference)

This horse named Starfires Echo has *NO* AERC record at all.

Got another name for this alleged endurance horse?

Easy to check a record of a horse or rider.

aerc.org

Then click on aerc records, then type in name of horse or rider or whatever.

Not all x endurance horses make good husband horses. Totally depends on how the horse was ridden, handled, and or trained. Being that the QH in question is 15.3HH, and with those huge chunky horse lines, I doubt this horse would have been competed.

I sold my husband horse, got a gaited horse. He was also 15.3HH, very very fully bodied, heavy muscled old lines. I live in very hot AL, and that horse would have had a hard time with the heat on the trails. All I did mostly with him is walk or do the QH jog, which btw he could jog at 2.3 mpg. Most endurance horses are lighter bodied. ANY breed may participate, most all do very well, however, you have to get a horse with a radiator body, not a very heavy muscled horse. You can, but it will be hard for the horse to recover with the heat his body is trying to get rid of. All that muscle holds the heat in. Lighter bodied horses release their heat faster. Choose your breed, and then find an individual within your chosen breedto fit the criteria. My QH was very very nice. But, husband prefered mt biking.

[kypeep]

They can be pistols in terms of having a lot of energy, but I don't think of them as difficult to train at all. Or at least not most of them of the bloodlines prominent in the industry now. Like all horses, some are more willing than others, but I definitely haven't found my way into many arguments with them. I have heard old hands talk about how difficult some of the bloodlines can be to start, such as Peppy San Badger (Little Peppy) horses being known to buck, but we are now talking about 2 or 3 generations back for many of these lines.

I like a horse with more "go" than "whoa," so maybe that has something to do with my opinion? I would not say they are typically beginner-type horses in temperament, especially as young horses, but I don't think that would make them difficult. In fact, in temperament, many remind me of the upper-level dressage horses I once rode. I do like my cutters pretty hot off the leg and sensitive in general, but then I liked that too in a dressage horse. The big difference I can think of, and one of the reasons I think of the cutters as easy, is that it isn't far down the road after being started that you can take them to the show, tie them up, and leave them sleeping there for as long as you want while kids run around outside the show pen, ride bikes along the top of the indoor coliseums, etc. Maybe that is just the product of plenty of wet saddle blankets, time being hauled, and standing around long enough to realize they're likely to be tied and planted for a lengthy period?

Added: For certain the cutters can be pretty goosey and have really bad ADD unless a cow is in front of them, but I don't think of that as difficult because my definition of difficult in a cutter is unwillingness, dullness, and no interest in a cow. I don't consider hot or reactive a bad trait for cutting horses, whereas I might in another discipline.

[hunterjumper22]

Both his sire and dam were cutting horses. This horse has an attitude but he will do anything for you. He has a heart of gold. My TB got injured and I had a show that weekend and I really wanted to go. I jumped on this horse when he was a three year old just to see what he would do. I do hunter/jumpers and he is all western. I winded up doing a 3ft jumping course with him and got second. He is awesome and extremely brave. He also does paper chases and eventing.

[hunterjumper22]

Both his sire and dam were cutting horses. This horse has an attitude but he will do anything for you. He has a heart of gold. My TB got injured and I had a show that weekend and I really wanted to go. I jumped on this horse when he was a three year old just to see what he would do. I do hunter/jumpers and he is all western. I winded up doing a 3ft jumping course with him and got second. He is awesome and extremely brave. He also does paper chases and eventing. We didnt get him to do cutting though, so i could care less!!

[Serendipitystable]

My QH stallion, Jay Breaker Jet (aka Tigger) who I owned, stood and loved for over 20 years, was a great grandson of King. He was without a doubt, the safest, sanest, most intelligent stallion I could wish for. He loved everyone and kids and beginners could ride and handle him with ease, he was incredible, no spook, smart, sense of humor (the time he kept picking up the neighbor's goat by the rump comes to mind), docile and not a mean bone in his body. He was quite handsome and we showed him in halter, under saddle and in driving. At home, he gave trail rides, cart rides, pony rides to little tots, pulled sleds of hay to pastured horses, taught youngsters (Tig always loved baies even if they weren't his) to load by setting a calm example. In his declining years, he lived in the yard and puttered around with the family, my kids, dogs and my old mare. He died of a sudden heart attack in front of us all and we still miss him 5 years later. In my opinion, King horses are fantastic, I made sure that our new stallion also carries King blood, they are my absolute favorite.

[kypeep]

HunterJumper - Love the cutting lines for the same traits you describe.Did the sire/dam show in local club cuttings or AQHA cuttings - something like that? I ask because there is no record of NCHA money earnings for them. However, there are venues where they could have gathered points or other awards without earning NCHA $.

AHorseSomeDay - I'll give his pedigree a whirl, although admittedly I am by far most familiar with modern cutting lines than any other bloodlines in the QH industry. Looks like plenty of race breeding crossed on pleasure/halter lines. Zippo Pat Bars was considered a good sire of race horses before he was known for siring Zippo Pine Bars -- a horse many considered the ultimate AQHA western pleasure machine.

[AHorseSomeDay]

Here are Stanley's bloodlines. He doesn't have any King bloodlines and he is HYPP N/N.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=PRINCE+OF+IRON&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Feel free to comment on his bloodlines as I don't know anything about QH bloodlines. :D

[Tamara in TN]

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=PRINCE+OF+IRON&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Feel free to comment on his bloodlines as I don't know anything about QH bloodlines. :D


not bad...racing blood turned pleasure on top and halter plus skipper W on the bottom for again pleasure riding....

a pedigree with a plan;)

Tamara in TN

[AdAblurr02]

Guess I'll bite!

Here's my good old guy, still my sweetheart.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/poco+por+mi+amante

Yeah, he's Appendix. Still, he took the QH road, while his full sibling Troops (http://www.irishhuntersandjumpers.com/Troops.html) took the TB side - 1994 Reserve HOY in Dressage Suitability for NWSHBA on points earned in front of Hilda Gurney :)

a few more pics here
http://www.irishhuntersandjumpers.com/Pokey.html


He still likes to think he's a cuttin' horse, especially if the chickens get into his paddock. He LOVES to cut chickens!

[kypeep]

Adablurr - What a grand old man. Quite baroque-looking in some of those photos and a wonderful mind to boot.

[AdAblurr02]

THANK YOU! I will pass on the compliment to Pokey. It will make his day!

He is an uphill-moving horse in a QH body, with a splendid extended trot and a ton of suspension, and a BIG jump. Of course, I can blame a lot of that on his mama's lines, but most of his straight AQHA half sibs were that way too - his sire was a grand old horse.

What I purely love is watching him interact with our Irish stud - they are so much alike in type, just 3 hands and about 500 pounds difference between them :) They are best buddies.

We have used him for a weanling babysitter for years, putting newly weaned colts in the runs next to him. Poke has taught most of the boy kids we have raised in the past two decades how to be a "good horse", ie, quiet and watchful of goings on, how to play hard and shut down in a second, and his amazing sliding stop and rollback. We had a nearly 17 hand TB kid who was really good at it - the two of them making their run down the fence to slide and roll back at the end was something to see, wish I had it on video.

It is a privilege to have this horse in my life, he's one in a million.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=AdAblurr02;4679688]Guess I'll bite!

Here's my good old guy, still my sweetheart.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/poco+por+mi+amante

nice pony :) remount and cattle blood on top of running blood

Tamara in TN