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Declaring
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:05 AM
Has anyone heard THIS one!?!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I jsut changed the headline

Declaring
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:05 AM
Has anyone heard THIS one!?!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I jsut changed the headline

jester1113
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:06 AM
And THE US IS IN THIRD???????

Miss Maddie
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:08 AM
Wow, here it says Bettina had all sorts of time penalties

http://www.nbcolympics.com/results/5031538/detail.html

jester1113
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:08 AM
Weird, I think someone was messing w/ the database. Now it's back the way it was!

Miss Maddie
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:09 AM
Yet here all these photos of her helping the German team to gold....

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?c=news_photos&p=olympic+equestrian

Declaring
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:09 AM
No idea at the moment, are they!?!

Oh poor Bettina Hoy, Rumour mill says she false started. How awful for her if its true... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

jester1113
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:09 AM
And now we're back in third. I give up, maybe I need to eat.

Miss Maddie
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:10 AM
Uh, I bet they are wishing Ingrid jumped! Wonder what really happened with her/horse?

jester1113
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Declaring:
No idea at the moment, are they!?!

Oh poor Bettina Hoy, Rumour mill says she false started. How awful for her if its true... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, that's HORRIBLE. I mean, I want the Bronze but not like that!

Declaring
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:13 AM
I know, I feel wretched if true, I was chuffed with our bronze... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

JER
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:13 AM
According to the BBC:

"Great Britain have won silver in the three-day eventing team event, after Germany were docked 12 points.

Team GB originally finished third, but judges have since spotted a foul from Bettina Hoy. Germany have the right to appeal. "

reefy!
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jester1113:
...I want the Bronze but not like that! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No kidding! It's nice but how can they just be finding this now?

Erin
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:15 AM
Uh... WTF? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

nowoncourse
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:18 AM
As of 1:15pm (EST), NBC has listed Frace as gold, Great Britian as sliver, and the US as bronze. Also has listed Bettina as having 14 time faults.
Go to www.nbcolympics.com (http://www.nbcolympics.com) and click on results.

jester1113
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:19 AM
I'm actually SAD over this! Even though we were bumped up!

Miss Maddie
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:20 AM
This is horrible, plus it looks like it puts her out of the running for an individual medal!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/3563256.stm

Declaring
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:21 AM
When she was interviewed on tv she was so nice and so happy, and after what happened to Andrew and him having no luck at all its so sad!

How much has luck come to play in this olympic 3 day event?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Equibrit
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:22 AM
Official results
http://www.athens2004.com/en/EquestrianMixed/results?rsc=EQX403201&frag=EQX403201_C73CE

tle
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:25 AM
Dang... go to lunch and the world turns upside-down.

I don't think this puts her out of the running for an individual medal though, since that will be decided on the next SJ round.

carlyanne
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:25 AM
What happened! There's no story about it or anything. If she did have a foul, I commend them for pursuing proper ruling, but wow, that stinks!

Miss Maddie
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:27 AM
It said "foul" in the BBC, and then went on to say Pippa was in 3rd going into the individuals.

It looks like they take the cumulative score for the individual medals, so ths time faults would count, if they don't win the appeal.

nowoncourse
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:27 AM
Equibrit - I can't find official results at that site. When I click on medals it says that none have been awarded. The link you gave has the results after dressage and xc only.

jester1113
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
Dang... go to lunch and the world turns upside-down.

I don't think this puts her out of the running for an individual medal though, since that will be decided on the next SJ round. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I think it DOES. Her total penalty points are now 49.60. There are at least 6 riders with better scores than that...Chances are slim. Not GONE, but pretty slim! Which means that Kim now has a much better shot at medaling, and medaling WELL...

BAC
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:29 AM
What's going on? I am totally confused, who won what?

Miss Maddie
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:30 AM
It shows she is now in 8th place so far in the individual standings...

http://www.athens2004.com/en/EquestrianMixed/results?rsc=EQX003201&frag=EQX003201_C73CF

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:34 AM
That does bite as no one wants a somewhat technical victory like that. Especially well after the rounds are done the story goes across the news wires. AP "In Medal Reversal, France Wins Equestrian" (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040818/ap_on_sp_ol/oly_team_eventing_equ_3)

2Dogs
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:34 AM
I just looked at the NBC results and it says USA team was fourth. Kim S is in 3rd individual although the listings have her a second.

Indie
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:35 AM
I just did a search on this...the scores/standings are everywhere! who's on first? what's on second?I wish someone would make it official. Bettina must be shattered, I doubt anyone wants to medal under these circumstances! Hopefully, she will get redemption in the individual round.

Erin
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:35 AM
Here's the official site's team results:

http://www.athens2004.com/en/EquestrianMixed/results?rsc=EQX403201&frag=EQX403201_C73CE

sporthorselover
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:36 AM
I don't get it...what was Bettina Hoy's foul?

jester1113
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2Dogs:
I just looked at the NBC results and it says USA team was fourth. Kim S is in 3rd individual although the listings have her a second. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That site seems to be consistently late in its updates!

BAC
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:38 AM
Just one more reason why I hate this format, no one even knows how to keep score - can't imagine what will happen during the individual rounds as it appears no one even knows who the top 25 are at this moment.

Coreene
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:39 AM
How devastating.

Madison
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:39 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/equestrian/3577172.stm

This article says Bettina Hoy was penalized 12 points for crossing the start line twice. Unbelievable.

Schatten
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:40 AM
Oh god, how awful for Bettina Hoy. She was so happy after her round too.

Weatherford
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:41 AM
Acording to Mark Todd - who is commentating for the BBC with the former top UK Event rider Lorna Clark - the START flags on the SJ course were VERY far apart, and it appears Betina started the clock during her circle and never knew it.

BUT NO ONE ELSE NOTICED EITHER - and the clock shown by the BBC showed her just FINE!

YES, I would LOVE us to win a medal, but as everyone has said, NOT THIS WAY!!

I think the Germans will probably lodge an official protest - or at least I hope so.

I was thinking how my friend Ann's Dad was going to be abolutely ON TOP OF THE WORLD that a horse HE found, and Ann developed won a Gold Medal!! The man is now in his early 80's (I believe) and DESERVES IT! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:45 AM
The official Athens site says the results are "final." That could mean that the Germans protested and lost already. Or it could mean that they are still subject to protest.

That is awful. I mean, yeah, great to get a medal and all, but geez, not like this...

How devastated she must be. And how badly everyone must feel for her and her team! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

JumperDoc
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:47 AM
I'm reading on the AThens site that results are "delayed due to a potential time correction"

What is going on!?

subk
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:49 AM
The person (or team) that "DESERVES" the medal is the one that rode according to the rules to win it. This does NOT cheapen anyone's medal who moved up. I really hate it for Betina Hoy, but it's always tough to get docked for a technicality. If she'd gotten lost on XC an had extra time or done something really unfortunte in dressage noone would think twice about it. The timing is a shame and makes it more dramatic but doesn't detract from anyone elses performance.

gahawkeye
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:50 AM
I have made that very same mistake -- not on the world stage, but yes, did the dreaded circle inside the start flags. Will, never, ever make that mistake again.... and I bet neither will Bettina. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

jester1113
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:50 AM
The results are back to "unofficial!"

Kahuna
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:51 AM
Britain takes equestrian silver
By Erik Kirschbaum

ATHENS (Reuters) - Germany have been dramatically stripped of the team equestrian three-day event Olympic gold medal.

France, silver medallists at the end of the final show jumping leg of the competition, are now the winners, followed by Britain and the U.S., officials said.

But Germany lodged a swift protest after being dropped to fourth when Bettina Hoy was penalised 12 points over her start.

Officials had viewed video evidence at the request of the French team before making their decision.

Initially, Hoy was marked as having completed the course within the 90-second time limit and without any penalty points.

But after the review of her ride the German was given a post-competition 12-point penalty.

It was ruled by the technical delegate she had crossed the starting line for a final warm-up, without the time clock starting, before circling again across the start with a full head of steam when the clock was started.

The Germans had originally finished on 133.80 penalty points after the three rounds of competition, based on provisional results. France were on 140.40 with Britain on 143.00.

For Germany it had been only the second gold medal of a so-far disappointing Olympics and their first gold in team eventing since West Germany won top honours at the 1988 Olympics. Germany also won gold in 1936.

Australia, who had won the last three gold medals and were considered among the favourites, finished sixth.

Going into Wednesday´s show jumping, Germany had been in lying in second position, 6.20 points behind France after the first two legs --dressage and cross country.

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:51 AM
It says "official" and "final" when I check it.

They better get this straightend out quick. Both the NBC site and the Athens site show Bettina with 14 time penalties, and award the medals Fr-GB-USA, with Germany in 4th.

They've already started the individual jumping round. The NBC site shows the results from the first (26 place) rider.

kt
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madison:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/equestrian/3577172.stm

This article says Bettina Hoy was penalized 12 points for crossing the start line twice. Unbelievable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This article also says "America's last rider Julie Richards then needed to go clear to ensure bronze but incurred a penalty at the very last fence." Ummm.... that would be Kim. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Miss Maddie
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:52 AM
Well, I would be extremely sad if this is the case, and feel horrible for Bettina, plus it always leaves a bad taste in your mouth to win/place on a technicality.

However, IF she truly did go through the start flags twice, then unfortunately those are the rules and I hope the decision is not reversed due to the protest, because you really can't start bending the rules. It's a horrible place for it to happen, but I think almost every rider has been eliminated or penalized for some technicality at some point or another.

Still, really awful to happen here.

3dazey
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:52 AM
The BBC article says that the US needed a clear round from anchor rider Julie Burns to clinch the bronze, but that she "faulted" at the last fence. The official results say she went clean in SJ. WTF??? This is just more drama than I can stand... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Indie
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:53 AM
This SNAFU should make NBC primetime tonight. Sheesh! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

3dazey
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:53 AM
Ooops, sorry Julie...that's Julie RICHARDS! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Magnolia
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:53 AM
Bummer for Hoy, but, make sure your i's are dotted and t's crossed at this level. Not the first medal lost to a silly slip up, and won't be the last. Who caught it? The judge? Another team?

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kahuna:
Officials had viewed video evidence at the request of the French team before making their decision. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just pointing out the obvious here, but this is certain to really help bridge the "friendship" between Germany and France http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Miss Maddie
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:56 AM
Does anyone know, have they completely rebuilt the show jumping course for the individuals, or is it some modification of the same course?

kt
Aug. 18, 2004, 10:56 AM
3-dazey, see my above post. I think the BBC mixed up Kim and Julie. Kim had the last rail down, Julie was clean.

Magnolia
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just pointing out the obvious here, but this is certain to really help bridge the "friendship" between Germany and France <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank GOD it's not between the US and France... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:17 AM
I'll bet that Ingrid Klimke is second guessing her decision to withdraw...

sophie
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:22 AM
Wow! I watched the SJ this morning on Bravo, didn't see anything wrong with B. Hoy's beautiful round, was very disappointed for Nicolas and Kim...and now this!!
It is unfortunate for Bettina. But with the video available, there is no appeal possible, if she's made a mistake, it's there for everyone to see. Name of the game, and I don't see how this would change the French-German (very friendly, thank you very much!) relationship.

Lord Helpus
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:29 AM
How is it that Bettina didn't start the official clock when she crossed through the timers the first time?

I do not ride jumpers, but it seems to be that this entire things could and should have been avoided if, as soon as the 45 second bell is rung, the timer beam is activated so that whenever the horse breaks the beam, the clock is automatically started.

Why is this not done? It seems to be such a no brainer.

If either 12 or 14 seconds were added to her time (meaning that she crossed the starting line either 12 or 14 seconds before she thought she did), then someone must have manually turned on the beam between when she went through the starting line the first time and when she actually broke the beam, starting the offical clock.

Since the difference between bronze and 4th was .2 points, and no official time was available, WHO figured out just EXACTLY when her horse went through the timers the first time?

There are many unanswered questions here...

Dressage62
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:32 AM
As I recall, the US only won the bronze team medal at the Sydney Olympics because New Zealand had no team after a horse was spun at the vet check. Lucky again! Bizarrely enough, nbcolympics.com is listing the US as bronze, with an article "Germany takes team title, U.S. falls to fourth when Severson falters."

BAC
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:36 AM
I just checked the Athens2004 website again and they are now showing that Germany won team gold, USA fourth. An hour ago they had Germany out of the medals, France gold, UK Silver and USA bronze. Does anyone know the official team results?

caryledee
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:38 AM
Whats going on?? I just got back from barn chores and started reading this thread...now the results at NBC and the Olympic site are showing that Germany DID take the gold. Anybody know anything?

wanderlust
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:40 AM
I'm with ya, LHU... doesn't make alot of sense. I wonder if the beam turns on with the sounding of the whistle.

Interestingly enough, I did the exact thing they are accusing Bettina of at a schooling horse trials this weekend. Management had made the odd decision of placing the start/finish line across one entire end of the arena, and I crossed it in my opening circle. Hello, 18 time penalties. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

BB
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:40 AM
I wonder if they changed the results back? With only four riders left to go, Hoy still hasn't gone. That tells me that she may have been moved back up to the top http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

ChampionMercedes
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:44 AM
Athens2004.com changed Germany back to gold. I'm confused, looks like this will be quite the controversy.

Nick of Thyme
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:45 AM
Ok, sorry, but this is just making this way to exciting for me!! All of the not knowing! I am almost having fun (maybe that's cause I'm Canadian and I know we finished 12th!!!)

pegasus209
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:46 AM
AHHHCK!! I can't take it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

werty
Aug. 18, 2004, 11:56 AM
I'm a showjumper, not an eventer, but, in normal showjumping scoring, crossing through the flags on your circle and then crossing them again to go to the first jump would count as a refusal in addition to any time penalties. (And you would have tripped the timers the first time you went through the flags, not clear on why that didn't happen). (I've had the personal pleasure of making this mistake and thinking I had a lovely clean round until the announcer set me staight.) Is that not the case here? This whole thing is so confusing!

2Traks
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:01 PM
athens2004.com now has FR-GB-US as the order of finish.

sopha
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:02 PM
According to the AP, the French protest has been reversed and the Germans are the Gold Medalists. This, I am sure will give Bob Costas something to talk about tonight!

Declaring
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:03 PM
Heard on tv
Germany appealed
Appeal upheld
Germans have gold team and individual


Leslie Law says a further appeal not permitted...

Gosh I am confused, but happy, we got silver anyway!

2Traks
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:04 PM
... and now athens2004.com was just updated to reflect Germany's win.

867-5309
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:05 PM
WOW this is nuts

I hatetosaythisbut, it's depressing that the only way Equestrian sports can get a sound byte on the eve. news is via a controversy.

3dazey
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:05 PM
OH NO, say it ain't so, Sopha. If Bob Costas starts in on this I'm gonna have to fly to Greece and finish HIM OFF!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

(3dazey, still holding grudge against Costas for the Jerez Olympics and for being such a cheesy buffoon... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

BAC
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:08 PM
2Traks - I just checked Athens2004.com and its saying Germany, France, Great Britain.

sopha
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:09 PM
I hear ya' 3dazey.

2Traks
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:11 PM
BAC -

See my previous post. I said it had been updated to relect Germany's win. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kareen
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:12 PM
From what I can take from here it seems the main issue is that the clock did not start when she first crossed the line. Thus the only reliable time available is the one between she secondly crossed it and when she was finished. No idea what the rules say in such case. Of course it would have been supersad for her if those 12 seconds plus potential penalties for a refuse had to be added. But if it was based on the correct data it would be the correct way. However with the precise time spent on that circle being unknown I think it wouldn't be fair to just add whatever someone thought she spent on that extratour...
Way too exciting I agree.

Declaring
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:14 PM
Just heard in an interview that the decision is now final and Bettina hoy gets the golds.

So whoever it is that knows her lovely horse so well, looks like is not just A gold medal winner, but A DUAL gold medal winner!

Mosby
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:17 PM
So.... was the timer not tripped with a laser as all stadium timers are? So she didn't really cross the line or what?

Tannenwald Trakehner
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:17 PM
For those who can't wait until the Individual round is televised here in the US, the standings are already listed:

http://www.nbcolympics.com/medals/1570027/detail.html

JAGold
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:18 PM
I don't like the idea of her losing the gold because of a technicality, but then again, I don't like her getting it because of a scoring error, either. If she crossed the line twice, then IMO she should be penalized. It's heartbreaking, but so is Dan pulling the final rail. Rules are rules. I hope that it isn't let slide because of an equiptment malfunction (the timer not starting the first time), because that's not a good way to win, either.

But it's impossible to know what is going on! Grr. --Jess

Duffy
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:21 PM
Ummm...If she indeed crossed through the timers, they have real time video to calculate the time penalties. Ever see them re-set the clock in basketball? I'm not saying she did or didn't - just saying I can't see why they couldn't calculate the time if she did.

Backstage
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:24 PM
[in small voice] I would like to see her keep it on technicality of the timers not starting. Not quite sure why, I'm usually all for the rules. If the timers had started, don't you think she might have noticed and not crossed again? I guess it would depend on the setup [/in small voice]

nowoncourse
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:24 PM
I don't get it. Don't FEI rules state that if you cross the starting line twice before going to the first fence then it counts as a refusal? I agree that just "adding time faults" to her score isn't right but if she crossed the line twice before jumping the first fence then she should at least have 4 jumping faults.
Does anyone know what the rule is?

baileygreyhorse
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:29 PM
&lt;in a REALLY small voice&gt; Notice who the judges are?
HESS Christoph GER Judge
TUCKER Angela GBR Judge
WHITHAM Cara CAN Judge
&lt;runs, ducks in a hole, hides&gt;

JER
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:30 PM
Was there a tone on starting? At all of the bigger SJ shows I go to, a tone sounds when you cross the beam of the starter. And if there's no tone, you'd see the clock starting on the scoreboard.

Apparently, Bettina had no indication the timer started. Did the timer malfunction or was it this way for all the riders?

Equibrit
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:38 PM
The medals were due to be awarded by now - but they haven't. They must still be slugging it out in the protest ring.

Erin
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:38 PM
Here's the MSNBC story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5733145/

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The French team had lodged a protest with judges, claiming that Bettina Hoy of Germany, riding Ringwood Cockatoo, had crossed the start line twice. The judges agreed at first.

But the Germans then countered the French protest and, after a second review, an appeals committee restored the original medal order, noting that the clock that runs during the event had malfunctioned while Hoy was competing.

“The committee concluded that the countdown had been restarted resulting in a clear injustice to the rider concerned,” the committee said in a statement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

beameup
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:41 PM
unbelievable, that at this level, there should be such a mess!

JAGold
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:42 PM
But even if they decide not to give her time penalties (which, as Portia noted, could be calculated ignoring the timer), she should still be penalized for crossing her tracks if in fact she did so after crossing the start line. Which might not be enough to affect team placings, but would affect individual medals I think. This is all insanely confusing. I can't wait to see what Jimmy has to say about it... --Jess

nowoncourse
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:42 PM
Ok, if I did my math right and understand the crazy score keeping that only this year's olympics seems to use... even if Bettina's crossing the starting line twice counted as a refusal (thus 4 points), the team standings wouldn't have changed. However, the individuals would have changed with Leslie Law getting gold, Kim getting silver, and Bettina getting bronze. Don't quote me on all this but I still would like to know what the rules about crossing the line are.
Its kind of frustrating not being able to see what happened while we are all talking about it! I guess I'll just have to wait and watch the tape I set before I went to work this morning.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:43 PM
Well, if she really did cross the line, she should have been penalized with time faults, and it would be a real shame to win when you didn't deserve it. Novice riders have to learn this and it costs them.

Go-Go
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nowoncourse:
I don't get it. Don't FEI rules state that if you cross the starting line twice before going to the first fence then it counts as a refusal? I agree that just "adding time faults" to her score isn't right but if she crossed the line twice before jumping the first fence then she should at least have 4 jumping faults.
Does anyone know what the rule is? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FEI Rulebook:
http://62.2.231.126/PDFS/C/04_01/eventing-final.pdf

Very little info on the courtesy circle.

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:44 PM
I do have to agree that if there was no indication she had crossed the start line, then it could be unfair to penalize her. I mean, if she had heard a tone and seen the clock start, she would have made it work and hit the course without a circle over the line again, so she wouldn't have had that much time lost. She might have got flustered and had a rail or two that she might not have had otherwise, but we'll never know.

We would all expect to hear a tone if we crossed the start line, and see the clock start going. If that didn't happen, you gotta figure you're OK. So I sympathize with the German position.

horse_poor
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:46 PM
i am going nuts here at work and cannot get a standings boiard to agree with another

what is the deal?? who got what??!?!?!

Mosby
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:47 PM
FROM MSNBC:
But the Germans then countered the French protest and, after a second review, an appeals committee restored the original medal order, noting that the clock that runs during the event had malfunctioned while Hoy was competing.

Okay, who made the malfunctioning clock? Are the SWISS in on this? I smell a conspiracy! Seriously, who has a MALFUNCTIONING CLOCK at the Olympics?

Erin
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:48 PM
Maybe it's different at FEI events, but at regular horse trials, there isn't a tone when you cross the start line. If you mess up and go through early, you might not know til you finished. Or maybe the officials would try to signal you... I don't know. That's one mistake I haven't made yet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Backstage
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAGold:
But even if they decide not to give her time penalties (which, as Portia noted, could be calculated ignoring the timer), she should still be penalized for crossing her tracks if in fact she did so after crossing the start line. Which might not be enough to affect team placings, but would affect individual medals I think. This is all insanely confusing. I can't wait to see what Jimmy has to say about it... --Jess <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think its an all of nothing situation, however. If they decide to count it, she should get the time faults and the refusal. However, if they decide that it doesn't count due to the clocking error, then her "real" start was when the timers started.
I have to agree, however, with wanting to read what Jimmy writes about it in his athens diary.

Portia - my thoughts exactly.

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:49 PM
Same as it was before all the controversy started and it got switched: Germany gold, France silver, GB bronze, US fourth. Indivdiually, Bettina gold, Leslie Law (GB) silver, Kim bronze. (The young Frenchman on the gorgeous grey who was in first had 4 rails in the individual final round and fell to 9th.)

Jimmy is such a gentleman, and so kind, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif he'll find a way to explain it without making it anyone's "fault," which it sounds like it isn't, really.

nowoncourse
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:52 PM
Couldn't find much on the starting line question on the FEI site. Interesting to note though that it states in Chapter VI Article 542 that the Olympics "...will be conducted at the Four Star level..." (not to start a whole different debate http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Magnolia
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:54 PM
I ABSOLUTELY do not believe that they did not have a back up timer. I recently was the timer for stadium at a UNRECOGNIZED horse trial complete with maiden jumps and no dress code. We had a back up timer. Had a MAIDEN tripped the timer by circling twice on their way to one of the 18" jumps, I had a back up time on a stop watch.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, I think Hoy put in the best performance (save an error!) and deserves gold, but can't believe that the timer malfunctioning is ANY excuse at this level of competition to not provide accurate results. The way I hear it is she messed up, which messed up the timer, so even though she messed up, we need to forgive her error because our equipment messed up?

talloaks
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:55 PM
Well now I wonder if all of this is an example of politics?????

reefy!
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
Indivdiually, Bettina gold, Leslie Law (GB) silver, Kim bronze. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish I hadn't just read this update!!!

SJ individual won't be shown here until later today. Is it exciting enough to watch even though I know the results??

nowoncourse
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:56 PM
Erin - A friend of mine crossed the starting line, then crossed it again for what she thought was the beginning of her test. They counted it as a refusal and she was eliminated after her horse had two stops on course (the third "refusal" being the crossing the start twice). She wasn't informed of the reason until she asked the stewards after she was told to leave the ring.

Kinsella
Aug. 18, 2004, 12:59 PM
Correct me if I am wrong (and I know you will http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) but in the jumpers, the buzzer sounds and you then have 30 seconds to cross the start timers... You can go wherever the heck you want BEFORE the buzzer, but once it sounds if you cross the start timers you are officially on course. And I've never seen where there was a buzzer that sounded when someone crossed the start timers...

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:00 PM
Oops, sorry Reefy! I figured with all the controversy that was already thoroughly spoiled, since it affected all the individual standings.

We haven't seen it yet here either -- just had a play by play on the chat based on refreshing the NBC and Athens 2004 website results -- but it does sound like it should be plenty exciting even if you know the results. Plus, you need to tune in to see how Robert, David, and Tim try to explain WTF happened! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:03 PM
We did have this exact scene as a protest at one of our little events. Our TD wrote to the USCTA to get a clarification on the question. They sent a letter stating that the time would begin the first time a competitor crossed the line. Of course, that was not an FEI rule interpretation. Eventing (and competing)is about rules. If a GP Dressage horse was having a brilliant ride, and stepped out of the ring...

I also agree about the back up timer. If not started, then the TD, like the referee in any other sport, would make their best guess to the accurate time.

If rules don't count, then give everyone else that broke a rule of eventing back their points.

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:06 PM
You know Kinsella, now that you mention it, you're right. I just associate the buzzer with the start, but you're absolutely right. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Still, she, or someone, would have seen the clock start when she crossed the line. Which brings up the hypothetical of whether she would have been disqualified for receiving outside help if the Germans and/or the crowd had started yelling for her to go. (To add another bit of controversy to it, just for the fun of it.) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I'm beginning to think that the "two gold medals" plus silver and bronze would work here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

KellyS
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:09 PM
Does anyone know if they awarded the medals yet? Have the scores been finalized or are they still being protested? It's getting awfully late in Greece.

Magnolia
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:12 PM
I think she was given the medal because while she screwed up, they (the officials)screwed up even worse. The French coach knows the FEI rules - he knows all about buzzers and circles.... sounds like she crossed the timer, it started, she circled, it stopped, and nobody restarted or had a back up. They should have been able to score her a refusal and the ensuing time faults brought upon by the extra circle, but with no time, no way to do that. That's some lame stuff - and makes you wonder about the gal that fell off and came in under time!

BLBGP
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:14 PM
How crazy! It sounds like a very amateur mistake on her part to go through the timers in the first place, regardless of them malfunctioning. She rode very very well and was a deserving winner, but it sounds like the stars were aligned in her favor to let her get away with this mistake!

The only thing at that level of competition I've seen close to it is at the '92 (?) world cup finals in Del Mar. One competitor was trotting into the ring and as the horse was going through the timers on the way in, they rang the buzzer and the timers immediately started. The rider stopped right there and staged an in-ring protest and the officials ended up restarting the timers.

But crossing the timers after the buzzer at this level of competition - regardless of equipment error - is absolutely insane.

War Admiral
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:14 PM
They HAVE now handed the medals out, but...

My BF just e-mailed me from the UK that the Brit Olympic Association is considering filing its own protest now, which apparently the US and France would be permitted to join.

This one is going to run and run. Certainly won't be resolved tonight I wouldn't think!

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
Which brings up the hypothetical of whether she would have been disqualified for receiving outside help if the Germans and/or the crowd had started yelling for her to go. (To add another bit of controversy to it, just for the fun of it.) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In one of our situations, the competitor (a Pan Am Games competitor) actually entered the arena, crossed the start flags and rode up to the TD to ask a question. We eliminated her for crossing the line before the buzzer, but we also discussed that getting "help" from the TD would have eliminated her anyway. We did tell her she could go ahead and jump anyway, but I think she was too mad to do it. The "powers that be" did uphold our decision.

reefy!
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
Oops, sorry Reefy! I figured with all the controversy that was already thoroughly spoiled, since it affected all the individual standings.

We haven't seen it yet here either -- just had a play by play on the chat based on refreshing the NBC and Athens 2004 website results -- but it does sound like it should be plenty exciting even if you know the results. Plus, you need to tune in to see how Robert, David, and Tim try to explain WTF happened! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's okay http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Just trying plan my ride for the day to mesh with the coverage.

You're right, the commentary on this is going to be GOOD!

RacetrackReject
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:19 PM
Portia, I think you may have been joking, but that's a wonderful idea, and would probably be the best way to proceed.

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:22 PM
I know there's a time deadline for filing a protest after the competition ends, but I don't know how long it is. So I guess they'd have to file something soon if they're going to do so.

The problem here is that none of the countries can afford to "just let it go." It's not just prestige and medal counts, there is real money on the line for the equestrian programs of each country involved, in some cases big money. Each country's Olympic program gives money to the National Federation based on medal results.

In the US, the USOC gives our NF (USEF, for its High Performance division) significant financial incentives and grants based on medals won, and the High Performance programs depend on that money. Not to mention the politics of the USOC and Equestrian already being treated like a second-class sport by them, and the only way to get respect from them is to win medals. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif So it's not something any of the affected countries can blow off.

reefy!
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:29 PM
Dang it - I just spoiled the results (only to myself, thanks NBCOlympics.com http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) for the men's indidual gymnastics.

I'll still watch - I LOFF watching the gymnastics! But no surprise for me as to who wins anymore. UGH!

DearStranger
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:31 PM
Portia...you are absolutly right. We can't afford the loss of a medal, and most other countries can't either...although in my opinion we're worse off than the Europeans.

blyst99
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:33 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/3563256.stm

It's not over yet!!

Lookout
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:35 PM
Hmmmm, maybe they need the Supreme Court to settle this, the way we do here in the democracy of the US http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:36 PM
Well, at least I didn't do it to you this time Reefy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sophie
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:44 PM
Here's what I found on a French site:

"La Grande-Bretagne, les Etats-Unis et la France ont porté réclamation devant le Tribunal Arbitrale du Sport. Cette Institution, en temps normal, est Ã* basée Ã* Lausanne. Un comité est toutefois présent Ã* Athènes pendant toute la durée des Jeux; Les juges ont 24 heures Ã* partir du dépot de la plainte pour prendre leur décision. Le résultat sera sans doute connu demain. Affaire Ã* suivre. "

So the US, France and GB HAVE appealed and the results will be known tomorrow. What a mess. No wonder the rails fell like Mikados in the individual SJ, while all this was going on...hard to keep one's focus!

Joanne
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:44 PM
Um, just saw where they put down a horse?? What happened?

Joanne
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:47 PM
Never mind about my previous question. I just read the topic further below. Very sad.

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 01:53 PM
The CAS (Court of Arbitration for Sport) handles all athlete or nation grievances during the Games. They will assign a panel of arbitrators from a pool of eligible arbitrators to hear the dispute on an emergency basis. Here's the CAS website if any of you are interested in what they do: CAS (http://www.tas-cas.org/)

Eligible international sports arbitrators remain "on call" throughout the Games. The CAS is based in Lausanne, Switzerland, and normally holds its proceedings there, but it moves the whole works to the site of each Olympics for the duration -- to deal with stuff just like this.

One of my close colleagues is on the arbitral panel (eligible to serve as an arbitrator) for Athletics (Track and Field) for the AAA (American Arbitration Association), which handles arbitrations of US athlete disputes for the USOC. They had some interesting emergency hearings just prior to the Games beginning.

vineyridge
Aug. 18, 2004, 02:15 PM
You know what's odd; David O'Connor in his commentary mentioned that the competitors have a buzz, then 45 seconds to cross the start line. He then went on to say that if a competitor inadvertently crossed the line, his/her time would start the first time the line was crossed, not the second, and that could add many seconds to the official time.

Do you think he knew something no one else did?

Lord Helpus
Aug. 18, 2004, 03:04 PM
What is even odder is that commentators LOVE to be smarter than the judges (gymnastics) and the athelets themselves (swimming -- who will go out the fastest and how each swimmer will pace himself).

If anyone of the three commentators had seen Bettina go through the timers twice they would have said something immediately and spent her entire round discussing it.

If the German squad or her husband had noticed it, there would have been gloom and doom when she came out, not unrestrained joy. If the officials had seen it, her time would have been adjusted immediately.

It must have happened. Obviously it did if theFfrench saw it and if it was there on replay. But the ground judges did not see it when it happened, the commentators did not see it and the Germans did not see it. At what point does it become a non event if no one sees it?

In tennis (which is what I am watching now), there is no instant replay. If the linesman and the referee both call a ball "in", it is "in", even if it is clearly "out" on instant replay.

Same in most sports. If an infraction is not caught by the people in charge of the competition at the time it occurs, then the infraction never happened.

A good example in equestrian is the definition of a refusal. If a horse takes a step backwards, it is a refusal. I have fence judged and sometimes it can be hard to tell if a horse hesitated or took a stutter step backwards. At a major event, this distinction might be determined by instant replay, but it isn't. The fence judge's call is the final word.

Seems to me that this is a reasonable analogy to use in this situation.

JER
Aug. 18, 2004, 03:16 PM
Bettina explained what happened on the Athens site ( http://www.athens2004.com ):
"The rules say I have 45 seconds to cross the start line after the bell rings. When I was close to the start line I saw 35 seconds left on the clock, so I decided to do another circle. After I had finished my round, I had a clear round inside the time."

In addition, the following remarks fro mteh Appeals Committee have been posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Eventing: Comments from the members of the Appeal Committee 19 Aug. 2004

ATHENS, 18 August - Comments from members of the Appeal Committee regarding the appeal presented by the German Team against the decision of the Ground Jury to give Bettina HOY (GER) 14 time penalties.

Freddy SERPIERI (GRE) - President of the Appeal Committee

On how they proceeded when the German Team appeal was presented:

"The Appeal Committee started by considering whether we had the jurisdiction to deal with the case presented. The Committee agreed that the case came under article 163.6 as an interpretation of the rules and so agreed to proceed with the hearing."

"Following further investigation of the situation, that took over an hour, the Committee concluded that the countdown of the clock had been restarted resulting in a clear injustice to the rider concerned. The Committee therefore removed the time penalties."

On whether the decision would have a bad impact on the image of the sport:

"I believe that the Appeal Committee's decision was driven by fair play and therefore it was taken primarily for the benefit of the sport."

Hugh THOMAS (GBR) - Member of the Appeal Committee

On why the Appeal Committee took the decision to accept the German's appeal:

"We looked into the situation and we all agreed that the incident was primarily caused by an error in the management of the competition. The clock should not have been restarted."

"When errors occur in the management of a competition it is right to make sure that the rider does not pay the consequences. Bettina HOY (GER) had every right to believe that the time started only when she crossed the start line the second time."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JER
Aug. 18, 2004, 03:25 PM
There is precedent for awarding two sets of medals in cases where scoring is dubious or technical errors affect the outcome. I'm sure we all remember the ice dancing fiasco of the 2002 winter Olympics, when two teams got gold medals.

In 1992, there was a scoring mishap (not sure what happened) in the competition known by the curious name of "solo synchronized swimming". The scoring error and its aftermath led to the eventual awarding of two gold medals, although one of the winners received her medal almost a year later. BTW, solo synchrnoized swimming is not longer part of the Olympics experience. I guess the message is: if you want to tread water in full makeup and a nose clip, you have to find at least one other person to do it with you.

It will be interesting to see how the eventing appeals are resolved.

bambam
Aug. 18, 2004, 03:25 PM
Maybe I am misunderstanding what happened, but so what if she saw that she had enough time to do another circle. Isn't the problem that she crossed between the start flags twice and the time should have started after the first one?
So it is the fact that her circle took her through the start flags that is the problem, right?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Erin
Aug. 18, 2004, 03:26 PM
Here's the Chronicle report:

http://chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=22902042041904&nav=Hidden&ShowArticle_ID=51808042176906

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They reviewed the case and concluded that, yes, Hoy had crossed the line twice, but it was because, when she looked at the scoreboard clock, it hadn’t started. So she circled to go through the line again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't quite get this. Who looks at the clock when they cross the start line? Shouldn't you be looking at your first jump?

She went through the darn flags twice. Anyone at any BN event would be penalized for that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Risk-Averse Rider
Aug. 18, 2004, 03:27 PM
Lord Helpus - I think there's a difference between your examples what (appears to have) happened - equipment malfunction.

In fencing (the only other sport about which I know anything), touches are scored electronically. The rules are clear that the referee can annul a touch that's registered, either because the fencer registering the touch didn't have the "right of way", or because the touch was improperly registered (on the floor in epee, for example), but CANNOT award a touch that was not registered, even if everyone present saw it land and agrees that it landed.

This is sorta kinda similar - the electronic timer didn't register her crossing the start line the first time, so they can't say that she did.

Or maybe that reasoning hasn't entered into it at all.

I do know one thing... I'm glad I'm not an equestrian official in Athens!

Declaring
Aug. 18, 2004, 03:33 PM
From what I just saw on a replay, she definitely rides through the start, circles and goes through again, so the clock, I THINK, reset when she came through again...
But that would confirm she had been through twice wouldn't it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

DearStranger
Aug. 18, 2004, 03:47 PM
Okay let me get this straight...she circled because they didn't start the first time, at least that's what the COTH coverage said. if that's the case...why wouldn't you have stopped and sought out a steward before starting?

JER
Aug. 18, 2004, 03:56 PM
Given what Bettina herself says in the interview on the Athens site, it seems she knew the bell had rung as she rode toward the start flags the first time, saw the countdown clock (you get 45(?) seconds to cross the timers) at 35 seconds to go and decided to do another circle.

As Bettina said: "The rules say I have 45 seconds to cross the start line after the bell rings. When I was close to the start line I saw 35 seconds left on the clock, so I decided to do another circle. After I had finished my round, I had a clear round inside the time."

Which means she knew she crossed the starting line after the bell had rung, which to me would be a rule violation resulting in a refusal and, if applicable, time penalties. I've never done this myself but my teenager did it once at a horse trials.

From what the Appeals Committee said, it seems like the clock was started and restarted before Bettina's second circle but if she circled and crossed the start line after the clock was restarted again, isn't it still a technical refusal? Or did they decide that the error on the part of the timer was enough to confuse Bettina and therefore excuse her technical refusal?

Erin
Aug. 18, 2004, 04:09 PM
See, the COTH coverage makes it sound like she knew she crossed the start line twice. The stuff from the Athens site makes it sound like she just accidentally circled through them.

Either way, I am still confuzzled as to how she had no penalties.

3dazey
Aug. 18, 2004, 04:45 PM
Disclaimer: I am not in Greece, have never seen the show jumping arena there, and have never ridden for my country in an Olympic Games!

BUT! I'm with Erin here. I cannot, under any possible circumstances, imagine being able to go through the start flags and look at the scoreboard and check the time as I'm galloping towards the first fence. Not saying it can't happen (read disclaimer above), but that's just amazing to me. Anyone know...was the scoreboard directly behind the first fence or something? And even were I able to do so, and saw the countdown timer didn't reset itself and start from zero as I crossed the start line, I would have a strong assumption that there was a backup system in place and just keep going. Wow...if we now have to be responsible for ensuring that the timers work as we start, I'd better ponder ending my competitive days...I've got enough to worry about without adding that to the list! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I'll be looking forward to seeing a video of this so I can make up my own mind. Anyone who was able to tape it have an opinion they'd be brave enough to share?

Erin
Aug. 18, 2004, 04:57 PM
They showed a replay at the beginning of the individual TV coverage tonight, and I think you can see pretty clearly that she just circled through the flags.

I can't imagine that if you thought there was a foul-up with the starter, you would just calmly circle and then head out on course.

I know the details are fuzzy right now, but this sure sounds like BS to me.

How does the clock at an international competition work, anyway? Is there ONE clock that starts counting down from 45 when the whistle blows, and then starts over at 0 when the rider actually goes through the flags?

J. Turner
Aug. 18, 2004, 05:04 PM
I hate to have things change because of a simple mess up either on the competitor's or electronic's or official's error. However, if it is a competitor error, rules are rules. They're there for a reason. That being said, it would be nice to have a bronze and a silver.

Peggy
Aug. 18, 2004, 05:12 PM
IIRC once they blow the whistle and your 45 second countdown starts, the first (and hopefully only) time you go through the starters is the one that counts b/c the timers should start at that point. So, if she went thru the times twice, she should have gotten 4 penalties for the circle plus the extra time. Now there is that funky USEF rule (1748.3.2.1) that states that a circle isn't penalized if it goes around the next jump (or the previous jump--not an issue here). Did she circle around the first jump on the first circle? Are FEI rules the same as USEF on this? Even if that's the case, there should still be the time penalties.

Even at the pole bending at the city celebration we have two people timing…

JAGold
Aug. 18, 2004, 05:30 PM
Erin, I'm with you -- the explanations don't match up with what happened. The time on course begins when you cross the start line. So if Bettina knew she'd crossed the line, then she should have gone to the first fence. The only thing that could possibly make sense is if she though that the bell hadn't been rung to start -- so her 45 seconds hadn't begun. That would be a reason to circle before crossing the line. But you should never cross the start line twice after receiving the belle, and IMO if you aknowledge that you did (or if the tape shows that you did), then you get penalized. Time on course doesn't begin at the bell, but it does begin when you cross the line. So it doesn't matter what she saw on the clock so long as she crossed the line after hearing the bell. It is possible that she did not cross her tracks after crossing the line the first time and so should not be charged with a refusal (and indeed, was not after the French protest), but time started and the circle was on her clock, so to speak.

The FEI rules don't say anything about clocks -- they place the onus on the rider to cross the starting line within 45 seconds.

From the FEI website: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Bettina Hoy had no way to believe that her round had started, explained Hugh Thomas (GBR) member of the Appeal Committee, "as the clock was restarted when she crossed the line for the second time". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To me, it doesn't matter what the clock said. She shouldn't have crossed the line for a second time. Time begins when you cross the line for the first time, and you don't need a clock to tell you so. --Jess

RacetrackReject
Aug. 18, 2004, 05:38 PM
It seems to me that if every 12 year old Pony Club competitor knows and can remember the rules about crossing through the start line flags, surely a seasoned International rider knows better. And like Erin said, who the fruitbat is looking at the clock on approach to the first fence?

Sannois
Aug. 18, 2004, 05:44 PM
This is just nuts, I heard this on the neews blurb in the car tonight coming home from the barn.. OK First we are in fourth, then they take the gold away from Germany and we have the bronze, NOW the french are taking back there appealabout germany and its back to the original??? This seems pretty noteworthy to me.. And so far no mention on the olympic coverage.. regular TV of course!

JAGold
Aug. 18, 2004, 05:47 PM
From the FEI rulebook:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The time of the round is the time taken by a competitor to complete the round, plus any time corrections. It starts at the precise moment the mounted competitor crosses the start line in the correct direction, providing the starting signal has been given, or if earlier at the moment the 45 second countdown after the starting signal expires. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (Article 538.5)

This is pretty clear. Doesn't matter what the clock says. Once you cross the line, time starts. I really hope someone is pursuing this (I'm sure they are -- it's just frustrating to see such a wierd application of the rules). --Jess

Janet
Aug. 18, 2004, 05:50 PM
OK, here is my reconstruction from all the reports. It sounds as if there were TWO mistakes, one on the part of the rider and one on the part of the timers, and that the apealls committee decided that they cancelled out.

It sounds to me as if the sequence is as follows.

The 45 second buzzer was sounded, and the TIME was started, but they failed to ARM the electric eyes.

Bettina took a circle, thinking that it was OUTSIDE the start flags. She looked up, saw that she had another 35 seconds, decided to take another circle, before intentionally crossing the start.

IF the electric eyes had been properly ARMED, she would have
a- heard a tone
and
b- when she looked up she would see that time had started.

In that case, she would almost certainly have changed course and headed to the first fence, even if it wasn't the intended approach line.

BUT- since she DIDN'T get EITHER the aural OR the visual feedback which SHOULD have told her that she had unintentionally started, she was not given the opportunity to "fix" her error.

Therefore, the committee decided that her error was effectively cancelled out by the timer's error. That is wasn't fair to punish her for a problem that was, in large part, due to the timer's mess up, in not arming the eyes.

Not saying whether I agree with it or not, but that appears to be the reasoning.

But there is another appeal, to a different group ("sports" related, not specifically "equestrian"), so we will see if they have the same interpretation.

Big Day
Aug. 18, 2004, 05:58 PM
Janet, I like your detailed description of the event, but the thing that rings in my head...two wrongs don't make a right. There were two mistakes made, not necessarily canceling each other out. I will be curious to see if the other arbitration group changes the ruling on this one.

JAGold
Aug. 18, 2004, 05:58 PM
Janet, I think you have decoded the reasoning correctly -- and even understanding it, I still don't agree with it. The FEI rules also say, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A competitor is ultimately responsible for knowing these rules and complying with them. The appointment of a steward or official, whether or not provided for in these rules, does not absolve the competitor from such responsibility. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (My first trainer made me memorize that line!) I think that while unfortunate, Bettina's mistake should cost her. It was her responsibility to know where the line was and whether or not she'd crossed it. --Jess

EventerAJ
Aug. 18, 2004, 06:06 PM
I have to agree with Jess. I feel awful for Brettina, but it can happen to anyone.

I've never been privileged enough to have such accesories as "electric eyes" and beeping tones when I cross a start line. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's MY responsibility to know where the start flags are, and plan my opening circle accordingly. Nothing tells me that I've crossed the startline except my peripheral vision. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I'd hope there was a backup timer, though, even at local horse trials!!

aahunterjumper
Aug. 18, 2004, 06:09 PM
Darn, I picked the wrong time not to have cable! Nice to hear that horse sports have gotten some mainstream coverage, but this fiasco won't endear eventing to the IOC. I think the reason why they won't time her round from the videotape is that no one else was timed that way and there's nothing in the rules to allow that. What a shame for all; hope it can be settled well.

TouchstoneAcres
Aug. 18, 2004, 06:19 PM
I don't know anything really about eventing but in a strange situation like this, why didn't they give her a second go at it?

tecumsea
Aug. 18, 2004, 06:21 PM
As long as they have turned this into the biggest gray area of how to rule the event. Why did she (Brettina) not get a technical refusal oand while I want to stir the pot, why was there not a fall or refusal and fall to Ingred Klimke, I thought he horse was definitly presented to the fence. It was a bending line and the horse was in the bend and she had to cross her path to get to the fence again.
There is more, And why did the timer not start with the horse going through it, If it is pre timed why do the rules need to be upheld? Also what is up with the short format and asking horses to jump twice on the third day. Not like they had an afternoon in the park the day before. This is the only problem I have with the short format.

Big breaths, big breaths. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Falstaff
Aug. 18, 2004, 06:22 PM
Sooooo - who won? I'm a little lost.

Speaking of which - I volunteered at Morven Park years ago (I was the person closing the rail at "A") and I saw an Olympic level rider forget his dressage test and start wandering all over the place.

I also remember David O'Connor getting lost on SJ at Sydney and the crowd correcting him - he didn't get eliminated for unauthorized assistance but that's kinda nit picky since the collective gasp of 30,000 people is rather spontaneous....

Very sorry for the problems but it's a tough sport - they are tough people and can deal with it.

Did anyone see Bettina make that sharp left turn going into a jump? Very risky - but a perfect transition to a collected canter and she almost pirouetted the corner - it was pure poetry.

Janet
Aug. 18, 2004, 06:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tecumsea:
...Why did she (Brettina) not get a technical refusal oand while I want to stir the pot, why was there not a fall or refusal and fall to Ingred Klimke, I thought he horse was definitly presented to the fence. It was a bending line and the horse was in the bend and she had to cross her path to get to the fence again.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Falls only count if they are related to the jumping effort. She had landed cleanly and in balance from the first fence. The fall was a result of slipping BETWEEN the fences, which specifically does NOT get penalized (except by the extra time it uses up).

It is perfectly legal to circle as many times as you want BETWEEN fences (though not between A and B of a combination), as long as the horse is not "preseented" to the second fence (which it wasn't). Again, the only penalty is time, but she managed to make that up.

Janet
Aug. 18, 2004, 06:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And why did the timer not start with the horse going through it, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> THAT is the heart of the problem. If the timer had started when it was supposed to,
EITHER
she would have recognized her error and gone straight to the first fence
OR
the time penalties would have been recognized immediately, without the need for a protest.

frugalannie
Aug. 18, 2004, 06:48 PM
I sure hope that Jim Wofford covers this in his on-line diary. I'm sure his commentary will be pithy.

Madison
Aug. 18, 2004, 06:48 PM
Thank you Janet - that's the first explanation I've read that made any sense, though it is beyond me how Bettina Hoy could have thought going through those flags was a good idea - they seemed quite visible. All I can say is in addition to putting in great rides, Bettina should consider herself damn lucky not to have been penalized, if that's how it stays. And I'm also perplexed as to how no one else picked up on it at the time - not the announcers or any of her supporters.

Beezer
Aug. 18, 2004, 07:02 PM
They are finally doing the taped delayed eventing final here on the West Coast.

The commentators just said France won the gold. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I am so very confused.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 18, 2004, 07:06 PM
I don't think the crowd corrected David O'Connor. That collectove gasp was when everyone realized he had "drawn a blank" and didn't have a clue of the course.

When she crossed the start line the first time, where was she headed? At the fence? Or on a her circle? If she was galloping straight to the first fence, and pulled off when she saw the time...maybe

My thoughts are that her going thru the start and NOT going to the fence is what may have caused the timer to be mistakenly reset?

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2004, 07:26 PM
Again from the BBC, which I must commend on being the single best, timely and accurate source of Olympic equestrian info for those of us who info NOW not the next day http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BBC 8/18/04: "GB eventers bag two medals" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics_2004/equestrian/3577172.stm)

The relevant sections excerpted:

A French appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) on Thursday could see Law take gold, GB land silver and Pippa Funnell bronze.

French officials insisted they would appeal to the CAS, the Swiss-based body who are sitting in Athens to hear cases more quickly, while British and American team bosses held talks on Wednesday evening to decide on their course of action.

The original incident occurred when Hoy was adjudged to have crossed the start-line twice at the beginning of her round in the team showjumping discipline.

Hoy jumped clear but was penalised afterwards before the German eventing federation successfully appealed.

French technical director Olivier Le Page told BBC Sport: "The appeal jury have contradicted the judges on the ground. We do not agree with the decision, and nor do the British or Americans. We are going to go to CAS tomorrow."

[snip]

"It disturbs our athletes and it was difficult for them to deal with. It seems to be a lobbying decision and not a sporting one."

British Olympic Association spokesman Philip Pope said: "All three countries' chefs de mission are exploring their options. Clearly there are issues to be discussed."

Lookout
Aug. 18, 2004, 07:29 PM
Where does Jimmy's online diary appear?

Erin
Aug. 18, 2004, 07:31 PM
On the replay, which I admit I was not watching studiously, it looked as though she was just doing a circle. Not like she was on her way to the fence and changed her mind. But, again, I wasn't paying that much attention.

I mean, she CLEARLY messed up. Is there a system in place that is SUPPOSED to tell riders they've messed up? I have never been close enough to the start of show jumping in a CCI to know. There certainly isn't at lower level events. Like Jess said, it's always been my understanding that knowing the rules was the sole responsibility of the rider.

It's not as though other riders made the same mistake and DID have the advantage of a tone or a clock fucntioning correctly or whatever. I dunno, this just sounds to me an awful lot like the Germans are grasping at technicalities... and for some reason, the ground jury is going along with it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Madison
Aug. 18, 2004, 07:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
On the replay, which I admit I was not watching studiously, it looked as though she was just doing a circle. Not like she was on her way to the fence and changed her mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly what it looked like to me, too, and she was very casual about it - no reaction like she had messed up - which may be what caused others to miss it too. It just looked like a relaxed warm-up circle that happened to go through the large start flags.

dianad
Aug. 18, 2004, 07:42 PM
Is it just me, or is there anyone else out there who keeps wanting to say "Brentina"? LOL.

MyArgie
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:04 PM
with david o'conner, it was not a crowd correction. one, in an arena that big trying to focus, you are concentrated on riding, not listening to the crowd. it was a stunned cry, not a direction. the same as if people boo-ed and you got a refusal, you can't blame an entire crowd.

Erin
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:18 PM
I dunno, I thought I remember hearing people yell "Go left!" or "the green vertical!" or whatever it was. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But, I agree, it's highly highly unlikely that he actually heard any of it.

JER
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:22 PM
If, as Bettina has stated, she saw she had 35 seconds left on the countdown-to-start clock, then it's all quite simple: she circled through the flags knowing that the bell had rung and the 45 second clock was counting down.

The timer error (whether human or mechanical) does not make it ok for her to pass the start flags.

The third error is the judge's error -- the judge did not penalize the rider for her error.

Bettina was probably nervous (who wouldn't be?) and made the kind of dumb error some of us make at ordinary horse trials. Because the timer malfunctioned somehow (has this been explained?) AND the judge did not score her for her error, she left the ring not realizing she made a mistake.

The video evidence shows what happened. How hard is it to make a decision as to what the result should be?

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:28 PM
You know, JER, after reading Bettina's comments, I had exactly the same thought. OK, you heard the buzzer, you knew you had 45 seconds, but you still circled through the flags?

My trainer (jumper now, but a good old fashioned British Pony Club eventer from way back) had that immediate reaction: "At that level you've done it enough times that you damn well better know where the flags are. If she heard the buzzer but still went through the flags, that's it. She's responsible regardless of what the clock did." I'm really beginning to agree with that view.

Really, from a lawyeristic, evidentiary point of view, Bettina's comments may be the best evidence against her case.

Has anyone mentioned that the blonde anchor on Bravo has dubbed it "Horsegate"? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JAGold
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:28 PM
This reminds me of the election in 2000. Then, too, I stayed up late thinking that if I waited another few minutes, surely I'd know who'd won... --Jess

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JER:
BTW, solo synchrnoized swimming is not longer part of the Olympics experience. I guess the message is: if you want to tread water in full makeup and a nose clip, you have to find at least one other person to do it with you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OMGiH! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Beezer
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
Has anyone mentioned that the blonde anchor on Bravo has dubbed it "Horsegate"? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha! I caught that, too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Almost as good as this morning's anchor, who closed her coverage with something like: "You've been watching Olympics coverage on Bravo, the network most watched by horses." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I didn't see this morning's round; I have it on tape, though, so will make a real point to look at it tonight. I've never ridden an event, but if the timer/flags situation is the same as in "regular" show jumping http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif it seems to me (for whatever THAT'S worth! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) that she upscrewed by crossing through once that buzzer had sounded.

Peggy
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beezer:
I didn't see this morning's round; I have it on tape, though, so will make a real point to look at it tonight. I've never ridden an event, but if the timer/flags situation is the same as in "regular" show jumping <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are. And I was taught always to note the positions of the timers during my course walk and plan accordingly.

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:46 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Beezer, I didn't get to watch until the end to hear that comment. It must have been from Mary Carillo (who makes a lot of bad jokes, but does genuinely seem to like the "horsies"). I'll have to look for it when I watch the TiVo of it.

On seeing the clock resetting when she crossed through the timers the second time, it's just like regular stadium. You get the buzzer to go, you've got 45 seconds to get through the start flags and the clock counts down those 45 seconds from the buzzer. When you cross through the start flags, the clock is supposed to automatically reset to start counting up your time from zero. I guess in this case, someone or something was asleep at the switch.

Still, I'm with those who can't figure out why she wasn't assigned penalties for a refusal as well as for time (before they were taken back). Unless she somehow managed to get through the start line and around in the circle without actually crossing her own path? Possible, I guess, depending on the line of the circle and the line to the first jump ...

Yep, Beez, I begin to be convinced that she upscrewed and should be penalized for it. Or they should award two golds and still give the silver to GB and the Bronze to US. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tomboy
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:46 PM
Did anyone else hear David O'Connor comment that the vets were there for the horse and the people? I thought I would fall over laughing at that one. (not that we get cheaper antibiotics from the vet or anything... as long as it was 1st perscribed by a real human dr.) And who hasnt grabbed horse stuff to use on themselves?

reefy!
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peggy:
They are. And I was taught always to note the positions of the timers during my course walk and plan accordingly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep! I think she ought to have known where they were and planned her opening a little better.

"Horsegate" - I like that http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Portia
Aug. 18, 2004, 08:49 PM
Tomboy, I believe we all knew the human uses for Vetwrap long before they started using it in hospitals and doctors' offices. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JER
Aug. 18, 2004, 09:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Still, I'm with those who can't figure out why she wasn't assigned penalties for a refusal as well as for time (before they were taken back). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These are all solvable issues. There is a video tape. The tape can be verified for time and then time-coded accordingly. But is there a provision in the rules for the judges' reviewing video tapes to change the result? I imagine so, as I recall at Badminton '99 a rider showed the ground jury a spectator's video as proof that she did not commit a jumping error on XC. They changed her score by subtracting the 20 erroneous penalties.

(Videotape evidence came up in a mens swimming event a few days ago. A swimmer was suspected of doing an illegal kick; TV underwater shots seemed to confirm it. However, steward at poolside judge the turns in the race and there is no provision for video review.)

Even if the timer malfunctioned, the judge should hae given Bettina penalties for the technical refusal of crossing the line. If the timers were far enough apart, Bettina very well could have crossed the line without crossing her path but the rule is about passing between the flags.

The judge erred by not penalizing Bettina for passing through the flags. This has absolutely zero to do with the timer problems -- no one, including Bettina, is disputing that the timer had started when she made her misplaced circle.

She should definitely have the 4 pens for the flag error. The timer issue only relates to how much time expired between her 1st pass through the flags through her ride past the finish timers. If she's over the time allowed, she gets those penalties, too.

(I confess to missing the finish flags once. Ok, one finish flag. It was in torrential rain, the white flag was in an odd place, and I knew I passed the red flag. I did not, however, break the plane of the timers. I had no idea, of course, until the announcer said so, and I probably bellowed something like "Impossible!" but then reality set in. I was eliminated.)

wanderlust
Aug. 18, 2004, 09:12 PM
I don't understand this... there is video of her going through the start flags twice, and Bettina has admitted to making an extra circle because, it seems, she had extra time. If she hadn't gone through the flags on the way to her second circle, this wouldn't be an issue. Since when can you EVER go through the start flags and not have the time start or at minimum, be penalized for crossing tracks?

She needs to be assessed the appropriate penalties, whether or not the timing guys botched the courtesy circle timing. A mistake on the official's part does not constitute a "get out of jail free" card on the part of the rider, especially when the stakes are so high. It is not fair to every other rider there who followed the rules.

Any time I have seen some kind of problem with timing or on the course (a couple of fences blowing over mid-round once), the whistle sounded to hold the competitor. Even if she thought there might be a problem, Ms. Hoy should have waited for a signal from the ground jury.

Mariequi
Aug. 18, 2004, 09:14 PM
Dianad, you must be looking forward to Dressage?

Funny, what happened to my long post I posted just before leaving work tonight just before 11:00?

Jen?

poltroon
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:15 AM
What they said on the TV coverage (later during the Individual) was that the French had protested, and the Ground Jury gave her the penalties. Then the Germans appealed, and Bettina said that she went through the start, looked up and saw that the clock had not started and so crossed a second time, thinking that it had not activated.

Since they won the appeal, apparently that was convincing.

The French apparently plan to protest to the next higher level.

Ah, poor Bettina. Either she won it all, or she lost it all. She went out and still jumped around brilliantly in the individual, and got off and just looked heartsick.

I would've liked to see the French get the gold (they were incredible!), but oh, not like that.

The US made quite a few small mistakes that put them justly in 4th. I bet they're all kicking themselves a little, but they did their best and should be proud.

poltroon
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by reefy!:
Dang it - I just spoiled the results (only to myself, thanks NBCOlympics.com http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) for the men's indidual gymnastics.

I'll still watch - I LOFF watching the gymnastics! But no surprise for me as to who wins anymore. UGH! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reefy. You should still watch it. You will still be surprised. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

AmityBee
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
What they said on the TV coverage (later during the Individual) was that the French had protested, and the Ground Jury gave her the penalties. Then the Germans appealed, and Bettina said that she went through the start, looked up and saw that the clock _had not started_ and so crossed a second time, thinking that it had not activated.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, that's what I've read too. But no matter how it will end, it has a bitter taste to it.

No matter who'll get the medal, there will always be the little word "...but..." in the back of our minds. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Sacha
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:34 AM
I understand it was the British individual show jumper Nick Skelton who was standing with the French team watching , who saw her circle twice and go through the start twice, and said so to the French, who then appealed.

I think the facts are she went through the start twice after the bell had gone, therefore technical refusal plus probably time penalities. I do hope the adjudication sorts it out!!

chrisw
Aug. 19, 2004, 03:27 AM
I would not want anyone to have a better place for the wrong reasons either, BUT the bell had gone signalling the course was ready. Surely it does not matter how long you thought you may or may not have left in which to start, by going through the flags after the bell you had crossed the start line and should have gone straight ahead and jumped. Of course at that level with a gold medal in your sights you are focussed on the course, but these people are professionals and Bettina is no stranger to pressure and competing at the highest level.

She had the bell, she went through the flags, she STARTED.

Declaring
Aug. 19, 2004, 03:29 AM
Apparently lawyers for USA, FRANCE, GB, preparing their cases!

ESG
Aug. 19, 2004, 03:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
Has anyone mentioned that the blonde anchor on Bravo has dubbed it "Horsegate"? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I did. And that is so, so tired. Surely if they were going to make a facetious comment like that, it could have been something a bit more creative. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

ESG
Aug. 19, 2004, 03:39 AM
I think it should be pretty clear cut. The rules don't change, especially at the Olympics. IF she crossed her line on the circle, she gets penalized for a stop. If she had time faults because the time actually did start the first time she went through the flags, she gets assessed the time penalties. I really don't understand what all the discussion is about, between the judges and the adjudicating committee. The rules were broken; doesn't matter if it was caught then or later. We've seen sprinters stripped of gold when drug tests came back positive, and skaters awarded gold medals that they were robbed of by crooked judges. I don't see that this is any different.

I do hope the French, the Brits and anyone else involved take this to the highest level. On the downside, however, I wouldn't be surprised if things are let stand. Wouldn't be the first time bad decisions were upheld at the Olympics. Does anyone remember the men's basketball final in 1972 (or '76) between the US and Russia, when the officials kept resetting the clock (three different times, I think) until the Russians won? The US men boycotted the medal ceremony. Think I'd have done the same. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Robby Johnson
Aug. 19, 2004, 03:59 AM
I am so disappointed with the entire Olympic three-day event.

Firstly, as a competition I thought it was a downright joke where the XC was concerned.

And now this - they showed the videotape last night and it was plain and the damned nose on my face. She should be penalized for false-starting. Plain and simple.

Robby

sophie
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:07 AM
Agreed. With the video, there should be none of this mess.

We'll know today what the CAS decides.

Oh the cliffhanger...!!!

I'm still SO disappointed for Nicolas and Galan in the individuals. Nicolas is a pretty cold-headed guy, but this whole mess must've affected even his riding.

frugalannie
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:18 AM
Hi Lookout: just saw your note this morning.

Go to www.jimwofford.com (http://www.jimwofford.com) and read his diary entries (just scroll down the first page: they're in the red box).

Enjoy!

silver
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:20 AM
OK, I suck but I didn't see this thread when I started mine, I swear.

Stupid commentators announced that they were trying to get her disqualified too. I was so confused.

I agree with Robby this whole 3-day has been kind of a let down, alhtough the showjumping was pretty exciting!

Renate
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:32 AM
Straight from BBC Sport ---


Eventing chaos explained


Olympic fans have come to expect controversy and scandal, but the genteel world of equestrianism had managed to keep its head well above water.

That was until Wednesday, when chaos reigned during the closing stages of the three-day eventing.

WHAT WENT WRONG?

The debate started after top German rider Bettina Hoy had completed her showjumping round, the last component of the team event - which also included dressage and cross country.

She jumped clear to hand Germany team gold and set herself up to later win the individual event as well.

One hour later, officials, who had noticed that Hoy crossed the start line twice, decided to award her 12 penalty points, relegating her team out of the medals, lifting France into gold, Great Britain into silver and the USA into bronze.

WHAT EXACTLY WAS HOY'S DEBATED INFRINGEMENT?

Eventing rules state that riders are allowed 45 seconds after the bell rings to begin their round.

During that period Hoy went across the start line but did not commence her round, making a circle instead.

The judge had already started timing and counted 14 seconds, before putting the clock to zero again when she crossed the line a second time.

Factoring in Hoy's recorded time, which was two seconds inside the 90-second limit, officials initially gave her 12 penalty points.

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

Germany appealed the competition's grand jury decision, admitting that Hoy had crossed the starting line in her warm-up but that the clock did not start and saying that she would have kept going had it done so.

They won and were reinstated into gold medal position, but that was not the end of the story.

Although the medal ceremony went ahead, representatives from the British, French and American teams have launched an appeal which could end up in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas).

WHICH MEDALS ARE INVOLVED?

This is where things get even more complicated.

The team standings are clearly under scrutiny, but so too are the solo rankings.

After the team controversy, the best-placed riders overall had a second round of showjumping to decide individual gold.

Hoy came out on top again, with Great Britain's Leslie Law in second place, American rider Kim Severson third and Britain's Pippa Funnell in fourth spot.

Hoy's second round is not up for debate, but if any appeal against her first round succeeds, Law stands to pass Hoy and win Britain's first gold medal of the Games.

Story from BBC SPORT:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/equestrian/3578698.stm

Published: 2004/08/19 07:20:43 GMT

© BBC MMIV

sophie
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:45 AM
Why would the appeal affect Bettina's individual medal if she were to get penalty points for her 1st round (unless they disqualify her, which I really hope does NOT happen!!) ? I don't know much about scoring...

tle
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:02 AM
sophie... because those 12 points would be added to her score BEFORE that individual jumping round... and thus would carry over into her Final score.

Dressage + XC Faults + 1st Jumping Round + 2nd Jumping Round = Final Individual Score.

pwynnnorman
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:17 AM
I would think that the sequence of events should take precedence over the "balance of errors." SHE made the first mistake by circling a second time (and her position of "noticing" that the clock wasn't running presupposes that she crossed the line intending to START on course, which the video shows clearly was not the case).

What if, as she claims, she HAD kept going? Well, for one thing, the clock wouldn't have been timing her, right? OK, soooo...would they have stopped her, fixed the clock and had her continue?

Of course not, right? She would have done her round and her time would have been determined via videotape, right?

I think the Ground Jury is just dead wrong to connect the two errors in any way. SHE started it. The second "error" by the offials would have been, not reversible, but certainly correctable in a way that would have been fair to her...HAD she continued on course as she claims (or seems to imply) was her intent when she passed through the flags.

ponyjumper4
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A French appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) on Thursday could see Law take gold, GB land silver and Pippa Funnell bronze. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kim would still get bronze. Pippa can't jump over her because of faults on Hoy.

Also, male gymnast filed a protest on a score from the team competition for Korea or Japan for his parallel bars performance and the judges reviewed the performance by watching a video of it. I don't think they ended up changing anything though. I don't see why they can't give Hoy faults if they've got it on tape and people saw her do it when it happened.

Mariequi
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:24 AM
Agree with you, Robby.

With Ingrid coming off and still more than making time, the course looked like a decorated lawn to me, and didn't seem a real test as we've seen in earlier years, with obvious reasons separating out the competitors. It's the fancy horse trials they suggested it would be.

ESG - that was the '72 Munich Olympics. A friend, Kevin Joyce, was co-captain of the basketball team and they did, as a team, decide not to accept the silver. A very hard, but right (I think) decision. That was also a scary year and I was happy to see him safe at the airport. I also miss the collegians on the BB team.

JAGold
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sillyponies:
Kim would still get bronze. Pippa can't jump over her because of faults on Hoy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Kim would get silver. Pippa would get bronze, and Bettina would drop out of the individual medals. --Jess

Irish Ei's
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:34 AM
OK.. Hypothetical question. How many rode After Bettina's team round? If the computers,buzzers,starters/timers malfunctioned at the start of her round, wouldn't any rounds ridden after hers also be in question?

inca
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:34 AM
sillyponies - Kim would get the silver in the scenario you quoted.

I hope they get this all decided once and for all today. What a mess!

Definitely reminds of the skating controversy in the last winter Olympics. I just think this kind of stuff leaves a bad taste all the way around.

The French guy who had all the rails down to lose a medal said his horse had never jumped at night under lights. He seemed to think that was the problem and it didn't really seem like the controversy affected him (the rider.)

I am assuming the competitors new the format and time of the event so it makes you wonder why he wouldn't have practiced jumping under lights if his horse had never done so.

yaya
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:35 AM
No, Kim would get individual silver.

What this quote is saying
"A French appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) on Thursday could see Law take gold, GB land silver and Pippa Funnell bronze."
is that Law would get individual gold, Great Britain woudl get team silver, and Pippa Funnell individual bronze.

It's just an accounting of what medals Great Britain would get overall, but it IS a confusing way to put it!

ponyjumper4
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>sillyponies - Kim would get the silver in the scenario you quoted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on how many faults they end up giving Hoy. The part I quoted said Hoy would get silver if all they give her is 4 faults, with Law getting gold and Pippa bronze, forgetting that Kim was ahead of Pippa. I was just pointing out that Pippa wouldn't get a medal if all Hoy did was drop to silver, and that Kim would still have a medal.

asterix
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:41 AM
Inca, indeed they did know -- that's why the Olympic selection event here in NJ waited until after dark to hold the SJ portion, so horses would get practice jumping in competition, under lights.

NMS
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:42 AM
I'm with you Robby. Based on the 2004 Olympic Games, I'm going to have to change my event preparation:

First I'll sell my OTTB because he can't piaffe (but he can steeplechase). Then I'll school my new dressage horse XC over the neighbor's lawn ornaments. And I won't bother to walk the stadium course anymore, after all, I can just circle wherever and whenever I want.

As the Brits have been quoted "farce."

Nanc

oskaar
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am assuming the competitors new the format and time of the event so it makes you wonder why he wouldn't have practiced jumping under lights if his horse had never done so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think (trying to remember) Julie Richards had one of the few clear rounds at the Selection Trials (Over the Walls). She had an exellent round, and she credited her husband for making her go out and jump every night under the lights because they knew the Individuals jumped at night. So yes, that's kind of a lame excuse if you ask me.

AllyCat
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:56 AM
I don't think anyone jumped after Bettina as she was in first place going into the second round and would have jumped last (reverse order of placing).

But I have not seen the tape at all so am only going on theory.

inca
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:01 AM
AllyCat - Bettina jumped next to last in the individual jumping final. They changed her order for some reason.

The French guy jumped last. I did feel sorry for him because it was a disaster.

AllyCat
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:08 AM
You're right Inca. Right after I posted that I said D'oh! and realized how it must have gone. So back to Irish Ei's question, anyone know how it would have affected the French rider's round or was this a one-off thing?

Robby Johnson
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:18 AM
Can I say this too? I feel a little catty.

That was the most sucked back bullshit courtesy circle I have ever seen in my life. Had she known when she crossed the start line that she needed to start, she'd have started.

Her excuse that "had the clock started, I would have" is complete and utter nonsense. She was stuck in her nerves and didn't realize where she was going and the fact is, she made a technical mistake that should not be rewarded with a gold medal.

Robby

carlyanne
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:21 AM
I think what the ground jury did by awarding Bettina no penalties for her round because she said the clock hadn't started and blah, blah blah, is like Kim asking them, "Hey, can you take away my rails? I didn't mean it!"

I think it's BS.

I also think NBC is quite rude in stating that "Kim" lost the team medal by taking the rail down. There were 4 other members of the team that could have rode a little better. Had Darren not taken 2 rails, things would have been different also... It is like they are putting all the blame on her and I don't think it's fair...

JMHO...

Edited to add that I don't think there is blame on anyone, just that it wasn't just KIM on the team... Therefore, they shouldn't finger point at her because she was the anchor...

inca
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:27 AM
For all you that actually compete in horse trials/events - would you REALLY look at the clock before you head to the first fence? Wouldn't you be concetrating on that first fence instead of looking at the clock?

I also agree that it is NOT fair to put the US 4th place finish on Kim's shoulders. It is a TEAM event. Maybe if there had been some better dressage scores, her last rail wouldn't have mattered so much. And Darren and John dropped more rails than Kim did. (I know John's score didn't count but I THINK it WOULD HAVE it he had managed to go clear.)

I do get tired of the announcers acting like everyone who doesn't win gold has somehow failed. I don't think that is right.

Oh, does anyone know when we might actually get a FINAL decision on this?

Go-Go
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
Can I say this too? I feel a little catty.

That was the most sucked back bullshit courtesy circle I have ever seen in my life. Had she known when she crossed the start line that she needed to start, she'd have started.

Her excuse that "had the clock started, I would have" is complete and utter nonsense. She was stuck in her nerves and didn't realize where she was going and the fact is, she made a technical mistake that should not be rewarded with a gold medal.

Robby <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you, Robby. Furthermore, there's no way in H E double hockey sticks that she noticed that the clock hadn't started. She screwed up - plain and simple.

I also agree with you that the XC course looked candy-assed. Meow, sister.

Kinsella
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:31 AM
OK, having watched the replay quite a few times, here is what *I* saw...

Bettina came in and was in the process of circling. Her circle DID include a trip through the timers, but that is legal BEFORE the buzzer... Well, the buzzer sounded when she was AT the timers on her circle. BAD BAD BAD error on the part of the person in charge of the buzzer. Bettina was OBVIOUSLY not on her way to the first jump, and I personally do not think she did anything wrong.

Yes, I would have loved to see the US get a medal, but not by penalizing someone that was in the process of doing something legal, which was screwed up by an idiot with a buzzer in their hands...

kt
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:32 AM
I feel badly for everyone involved in that mess. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

dianad
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:38 AM
Mariequi,
Well, mostly just Brentina as I used to live in Idaho and have competed at Rivergrove.... and when Bettina gets referred to as Brettina I have to stop and think!)

I thought the worst commentator joke was the tired "why the long face" horse joke http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

Remember the figure skating pair and the gold medal disaster? I'm trying to remember what that was, judges maybe? Anyway, didn't they get awarded the gold after winning the silver or something? Geeez, old age is taking it's toll, but I know there was something there....

AllyCat
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by inca:
For all you that actually compete in horse trials/events - would you REALLY look at the clock before you head to the first fence? Wouldn't you be concetrating on that first fence instead of looking at the clock?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many of can't even remember if they blew the whistle or rang the bell, let alone look up at a clock if there happens to be one?! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

All I do is listen for the signal and go. Only had a clock once in my riding life and I know for sure I only listened to the starter's signal (that was on XC)

NMS
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:44 AM
To the rules folks...is it legal to go through the flags BEFORE the buzzer? I thought going through the flags was a no no even before the buzzer is sounded. I'd like to know.

Nanc

JAGold
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by inca:
For all you that actually compete in horse trials/events - would you REALLY look at the clock before you head to the first fence? Wouldn't you be concetrating on that first fence instead of looking at the clock?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only very, very big competitions actually have clocks that are visable to competitors -- think Rolex, Fair Hill... (I know that at A shows, it's more normal to have a clock/scoreboard.) So at the levels the vast majority of us compete, this isn't even an issue. Moreover, there is no requirement that there by a clock, so Bettina shouldn't be relying on it. She should know where the flags are.

But to answer your question, when I am approaching the first fence, I am looking at it or at fence 2. Not for a clock, the judge, my trainer, or salvation in another form. While I think Janet has correctly explained the reasoning of the officials, I completely agree with Robby's interpretation of what actually happened out there. --Jess

horse_poor
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:45 AM
i was at work all day yesterday and was living vicariously thru you guys over this whole mess--i tried in vain to find something on TV about it last night to no avail-my mom called during this time and i told her real quick what happened-she is not only not a horse person but anti horse and she said "well i have been watching it all night and i havent heard anything about it..." oh ok mom i am making the whole thing up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

but then i do wonder how many non horse people know about it.....

it is s'posed to be resolved today, correct?

Dezi
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:46 AM
Ok, I'll admit I have not watched it yet (I have a job, and it was not worth wrestling the rug rats for the VCR last night!!) - BUT - I did watch the individual yesterday, and that was a pretty big darn field. Why would you plan your "courtesy circle" so darn close to the start???!!

Even poor little old novice rider me is aware of that rule (plus I try to get the greenie monster to "see" more jumps, therefore our circle is verrrrry big!!!)

Maybe Bettina needs the "Effen" vodka hat award.

Robby Johnson
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:47 AM
As a general rule, to avoid scenarios where this may be in question, I tend to avoid any sort of "pre-round" arena work that is remotely near the start flags. Because, of course, they tend to be very close to the first fence.

Kinsella, I don't doubt that she wasn't paying attention to the first fence. It's obvious watching her circle that she wasn't. But when you enter the ring you must be expecting the buzzer to sound, and though it sounded at an inopportune time for her, it still sounded and she still crossed the flags.

That's why it's a technicality.

Robby

rileyt
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:49 AM
This is just my opinion.

I think Kinsella makes a good point.

I don't believe that Bettina "didn't know the rules" (and therefore should be penalized). And I take her explanation at face value.

I think there were too many techinal malfunctions in this case to penalize the rider. If the initial buzzer hasn't sounded she can go through the start flags if she wants... right? It may be that her explanation doesn't ring true to some of us because of language issues or because she was flustered and not explaning herself well.

Assume she knows the rules (hey, she's an Olympic level competitor... is that such a stretch). And the buzzer hasn't sounded, or she does notice that the time hasn't started yet. She goes through the start flags and gets feedback (in the form of the timer not starting, and/or the buzzer not sounding) that make her think "They weren't ready for me".

What should she do? She can continue to the first fence thinking "God, I hope they sound that buzzer in time or I'm in trouble". She can stop and raise her hand for the ground jury (gimme a break... who's gonna do this?) Or she can make a circle and hope the guy operating the timer/buzzer gets his act together. Those are really her three options. We can debate what she should've done over and over, but I think all three of those situations leave the rider in an unfair position.

I'm not against eliminating riders for technical mistakes... but this one was at least exacerbated by poor management. If I'd just won the gold medal, I hope no one would take it away from me in such circumstances.

I hope the US decides not to join the appeal. Let Bettina keep the gold. I think she earned it.

NMS
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:50 AM
Robby, I'm with you on this one...I always thought that going through the start or finish flags at anytime gets you in trouble...for one, couldn't it be counted as starting without the buzzer? That will get you the big E. Oh heck I'm so old I still salute the judge and wait for the bell. So does anyone really know if it's legal to go through the flags if the buzzer has not gone off yet? That is a very key question here.

Nanc

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:52 AM
If she was circling thru the flags before the bizzer, wouldn't she actually be considered to be starting before the buzzer? So if the buzzer sounded then, wouldn't it actually have saved her butt by only giving her time penalties, or a possible refusal for crossing, instead of elimination for starting the course (start line) before the signal to go?

equitationlane
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:55 AM
Does anyone remember the fiasco during the show jumping World Cup held in Del Mar, CA in the 90”s? Leslie McNaught had almost started her round in the speed class when she noticed the timers had started way before she crossed the line. According to Victor (Hugo-Vidal), who was on the ground jury, her horse swished his tail as she was making her circle and that started the timers early. This was determined after watching the video tape over and over again, so they let her score stand. Now this was in a very small arena with tons of jumps, so making a circle wasn’t really all that easy and it did pose some problems.

As far as the Olympic Three Day is concerned, she probably shouldn’t have been circling so close to the timers and should have noticed that they were running before she started her course. Basically, it was a screw up on her part, compounded by the ground jury.

KateDB
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:55 AM
I'm going to chime in to agree with Robby and Jess (Robby already knows that we are on the same track!) EVEN if she went through the start and noticed on her way to the first fence that the "BIG" clock wasn't starting, that wouldn't mean that some other form of timing hadn't been tripped. In fact, many competitions (particularly big ones) do have two timers, one to act as back-up. So, if she had really had a huge question about whether the timer had been enacted, she actually could have stopped to inquire and not simply assumed that no one was timing her and thus circle again.

canyonoak
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:56 AM
There is a lot wrong with the new format.

Everyone knows that.

It comes as no surprise to me that the Germans have now added the eventing medals to their equestrian treasure chest--the new format was made in the shade for them.

It rankles no end that Nicolas Touzaint and Galan de Sauvagere were not,somehow, declared offcial winners...without a doubt, they were the class of the competition.
But it was pretty obvious to me that there was no gas in the tank during/after the first jumping round..I feel only sadness that I bet everyone else that he would have a horrible individual round.

I am glad that the medals included the British, despite losing Fox-Pitt and Tamarillo..

Somehow, I hope that the controversy over the results stirs the Powers That Be to actually tweak the format a bit, so as to make it more sporting.

ANd I hate hate hate the individual show jumping round.

It is NOT a replacement for roads and tracks.

I do not think the most capable horse/rider won, and not even my respect for Andrew Hoy will change that.


thinking and feeling negatively today,

bambam
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:56 AM
I think it is unfortunate that this whole farce (as the Brits aptly put it) will color the whole thing no matter what the outcome.
But bottom line to me is- she crossed the line twice, which she knew she did and I don't see how the timer affected that (and given the fact that it did not look like she was thinking of doing anything other than circling again when she went through the first time, her explanation does not ring very genuine to me).
It sucks to lose the medal on that kind of erorr and probably not how others would ideally like to win one, BUT it is an error and she is subject to the rules and sometmes those rules smart.
I also don't know how Bettina's round would affect the French rider because the protect was made way after wasn't it?

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NMS:
To the rules folks...is it legal to go through the flags BEFORE the buzzer? I thought going through the flags was a no no even before the buzzer is sounded. I'd like to know.

Nanc <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not sure about FEI rules, but under USEA rules, it is TECHNICALLY considered "starting the course before the signal" to go through the flags before the buzzer (Fairview confirmed this with the USEA office several years ago, and those rules have not changed).

HOWEVER, the ground jury/organizers have the option of waiving that requirement if the layout of the ring makes "going through the flags" difficult to avoid on entering the ring.

Every time I think I might want to go through the flags before the buzzer, I ASK the TD or GJ. Except for Fairview, I can't think of a single time I have been told "No, don't go theough the flags before the buzzer". In fact, the usual answer is "of course you can go between the flags before the buzzer".

So it is one of those rules that is very rarely invoked, and takes many people by surprise when it is.

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oskaar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am assuming the competitors new the format and time of the event so it makes you wonder why he wouldn't have practiced jumping under lights if his horse had never done so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think (trying to remember) Julie Richards had one of the few clear rounds at the Selection Trials (Over the Walls). She had an exellent round, and she credited her husband for making her go out and jump every night under the lights because they knew the Individuals jumped at night. So yes, that's kind of a lame excuse if you ask me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The "jumping under the lights" was at the "final outing" at the Jersey Freah site.

Magnolia
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:59 AM
Egads, this is confusing. So you CAN cross the timers BEFORE the buzzer is sounded? And when she crossed the timers, the buzzer was sounded?

IMO, if you can cross the timer as many times as you like, BEFORE the buzzer sounds, and while she was crossing the first time and the buzzer sounded while she was right by the timers, she should, IMO keep the gold.

IF you can only cross the timer once, regardless of the buzzer, than she screwed up and shouldn't keep the gold.

Miss Maddie
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Bettina came in and was in the process of circling. Her circle DID include a trip through the timers, but that is legal BEFORE the buzzer... Well, the buzzer sounded when she was AT the timers on her circle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't see the replay yet, but if this is how it happened, where did those 10 seconds go, that's a long time cantering around. What happened in the 10 seconds after the buzzer sounded, was she on her way to the fence the whole 10 secs, looked up, and decided to circle, or did she just continue circling away?

Still can't really see it any other way than she made a mistake.

AllyCat
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:02 AM
I can't find anything in the USEF rulebook that states you can or cannot cross the start/finish line BEFORE the signal is given.

However, it does say that attempting to 'start' on course before the signal is given incurs elimination. I agree with others here: I don't go anywhere near the S/F flags until they sound the signal.

FEI rules may be different. Anyone?

bambam
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:03 AM
Exactly Miss Maddie- if the buzzer sounded so close to her going through the flags that she was not aware that her time had started, then when she looked at the clock and decided to circle again, I don't see how it could be already down to 35 seconds- she knew the 45 second countdown had begun and so I don't see how the explanation could be that the buzzer sounded as she went through and she was not aware of it

Go-Go
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by canyonoak:
It rankles no end that Nicolas Touzaint and Galan de Sauvagere were not,somehow, declared offcial winners...without a doubt, they were the class of the competition.
But it was pretty obvious to me that there was no gas in the tank during/after the first jumping round..I feel only sadness that I bet everyone else that he would have a horrible individual round. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm... I'm going to disagree with you there, but in a nice way. I think that horse had plenty of gas, but jumping under the lights bugged him. I think they bugged the whole French team. If you look at the replays, none of the French horses had their eyes on the jumps, and as well as they listen to their riders it was obvious that experience under the lights would have been the difference between an individual gold and bukkis. I bet they get back to France and have a nice arena with lights waiting for them!

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Eventing rules state that riders are allowed 45 seconds after the bell rings to begin their round.

During that period Hoy went across the start line but did not commence her round, making a circle instead.

The judge had already started timing and counted 14 seconds, before putting the clock to zero again when she crossed the line a second time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If that is indeed what happened, then the judge should be taken out and shot.

Well, maybe that is a bit extreme. But AT LEAST stripped of his/her "O" license.

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:10 AM
I was just about to post what Miss Maddie did.

It sounds like there are two explanations floating around.

1. Bettina was just doing a circle, and the buzzer letting her know she could start just HAPPENED to go off just as she was circing through the start flags.

2. Bettina was actually starting the course, but looked up and noticed that the clock counting down her 45 seconds said 35, so she did another circle. (????)

If she just happened to circle through the flags just as the buzzer was going off, what was the deal with the clock saying 35 seconds?

I just pulled out my tape and watched it, and since I'm a computer geek, I'm going to pull the clip off of video and onto my computer. I'll post it here in a few.

(Anyone out there with their own webspace want to offer up some to mirror it?)

NMS
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:13 AM
Erin,

That would be so way geeky cool, thanks.

Nanc

Go-Go
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:13 AM
Looks like this puppy is going to be settled the American way - through a lawsuit. A modern day WWII:

Eventing USA Statement (http://www.equestriannews.com/cgi-box/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=USAEventing%2edb&command=viewone&id=189&op=t)

JAGold
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:13 AM
Erin -- I have space through school. I don't, however, know how to use it. But I can send you the link if that helps -- always glad to exploit accademia for horses... Jess

ChampionMercedes
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The judge had already started timing and counted 14 seconds, before putting the clock to zero again when she crossed the line a second time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like maybe the judge was a little biased.

You make a mistake and you pay the consequences. I think it's pathetic that this much controversy has been stirred up. I video taped it and it's very obvious what happened. There's no reason it took so long to determine whether or not she was right or wrong.

ChampionMercedes
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:

(Anyone out there with their own webspace want to offer up some to mirror it?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can host it on mine if you'd like.

kt
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:19 AM
What I wouldn't give to see an online video of the round in question!

Edited to add: Wow, that's service! As soon as I posted this I see that Erin is already on it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:22 AM
At your service, KT! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

KateDB
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:25 AM
I hope this disappears quietly from the mainstream media. The possible perception it might have to general public's eye would NOT be good for our sport. I can just hear...."those rich horsey people have to resort to spending money on attorneys to get their way/medals". And while our argument is in the name of sportsmanship and fair play, it could certainly backfire...

rileyt
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:30 AM
Oh GAWD! Just what we need... a friggin' lawsuit!

I wonder if USEF asked any of the competitors how they felt about it?

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:32 AM
Did you see her burst into tears after finishing her round last night? Seems like it was a VERY emotional day for her and the team.

However, to me the tape looked like she did circle right through the flags after the buzzer, and that is still a very amateur mistake. I only saw the replay once, so I look forward to Erin's kind kind offer!

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:34 AM
OK, I did two .mov clips. (And I am not a digital video guru, so I apologize if this is not in a good format for everyone... I can upload versions in other formats if need be.)

The clip starts with footage of Kim outside the ring, but if you listen to the loudspeakers you can hear Bettina being introduced. The sound quality on this is not great, because I don't have a stereo VCR... but I did not hear when the buzzer went off telling her she could start.

Version #1 (lower video quality) (http://www.spinnakerwebservices.com/bettinastreaming.mov) - 2.8 MB mov file

Version #2 (higher video quality) (http://www.spinnakerwebservices.com/bettinahigh.mov) - 6.7 MB mov file

Version #3 (higher video quality) (http://www.spinnakerwebservices.com/bettinahigh.mp4) - 6.1 MB mp4 file

Anyone who wants to mirror them, please have at it. I'm going to post a sticky with the URLs... just post there and add yours on.

Glimmerglass
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KateDB:
I hope this disappears quietly from the mainstream media. The possible perception it might have to general public's eye would NOT be good for our sport. I can just hear...."those rich horsey people have to resort to spending money on attorneys to get their way/medals". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really think Joe Six Pack could care less. This story isn't being picked up in the mainstream - e.g., the Wall Street Journal has no mention in today's issue. Plus I don't know anyone who thinks of Eventing folks as being rich - just show me a rich Eventer at the Olympic level ... you must be thinking of dressage riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seriously if anything this would be viewed as old school Germany vs. France/Britain/USA like the cold war. Just a question of the rules and level playing field with the Swiss in the middle to sort it out. It has nothing to do with the individual riders quite frankly.

Robby Johnson
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:38 AM
great analogy, glimmerglass! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Xctrygirl
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:42 AM
Ok I'll be the poop head and unpopular one here...nothing new.

Erin, Do NOT upload that video clip from the NBC broadcast last night. Doing that and then linking it here clearly defines Copyright infringement.

All broadcasts are copyrighted and may not be reproduced or re-broadcast without written permission. They say this on all the shows they air.

NBC OWNS the copyright of their broadcast.

If people taped the broadcast last night then its own their own personal tapes. HOWEVER it is very clearly defined in copyright law that you absolutely may not take that same tape and air the content elsewhere without permission.

**From the NBC website...these same rules apply to television broadcasts as well***

Notices of Restrictions on Your Use
The Service, the Web Site and all data and information and/or content that you see, hear or otherwise experience on the Web Site (the "Content") belongs to NBC, its partners, contractors, affiliates, contributors or third parties and may be protected by U.S. and international copyright, trademark, intellectual property and other laws. Content provided by third parties, such as Getty Images, is used on the Web Site with the permission of such third parties.

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only use these copies of the Content for your own personal, non-commercial use;
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do not modify or alter the Content in any way, or delete or change any copyright or trademark notice.

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You agree not to alter, modify, reformat, copy, download, reproduce, duplicate, display, distribute, repost, transmit, publish, license, sell, rent, transfer, or create derivative works from any Content obtained from the Web Site or the Service, except as expressly permitted by these Terms of Use. Moreover, you may not use any of the marks appearing throughout this Web Site without express written consent from the trademark owner, except as permitted by applicable law.

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I really think you should not upload the clip to a website, private, public or otherwise.. If you all want to pass around tapes or whatever on your own time...go for it. But broadcasting it across the net can open a huge can of worms!

And this is the property of NBC. uploading it would be illegal.

~Emily

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:43 AM
Regarding the "lawsuit" Go-Go posted about from the USEA statement... I think that's just the next level of an appeal. There's a protocol set in place for this with arbitrators who are there for the duration of the Olympics, just in case something like this happens. I don't think it's a lawsuit, per se, just sort of another level of the appeal. An arbitration is the alternative to a lawsuit, I believe.

Portia can probably explain better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif