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View Full Version : MEDAL POSITIONS CHANGED AGAIN _ GERMANS BACK ON TOP???? USA may now protest (just on



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mbp
Aug. 20, 2004, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh does anybody remember Ulla Salzgeber in Australia ? Her freestyle-Music suddenly stopped. She was allowed to start again. That was a very fair decision and everybody accepted it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about the FEI rules, but for our national situation there is a specific rule that allows a dressage test to be restarted if something unforeseen occurs (I think originally they were having things like loose horses running through rings and things like that - but the music would have been covered too.

I think of this a lot like my brother's all star little league game, when they "won" except the young hero who hit the home run didn't actually TOUCH home plate - thought he did, ran that way, but his feet never touched the plate. While the stands were clearing with yelling happy hugging kids, the other side got that ball in and tagged base and he was OUT.

Sad, but thems the rules.

Erin
Aug. 20, 2004, 02:44 PM
Actually, Velvet, I think I read somewhere that the 4th placed swimmer lodged a protest...

Mariequi
Aug. 20, 2004, 02:45 PM
Little did I know at Tryon during the Adult Team Championships (long ago), I was doing a Klimke. I would've been so proud! But by no means did I make the time.

M. O'C, what wonderful yet bittersweet memories: Mr. M didn't take one of these, because he wanted to take pictures. Thus he captured the shot of Uli Kirchoff and Jus de Pomme that was later selected as COTH photo of the year...)

Gnep
Aug. 20, 2004, 02:48 PM
jup Alex,

but once a Kraut, always a Kraut

Velvet
Aug. 20, 2004, 02:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Actually, Velvet, I think I read somewhere that the 4th placed swimmer lodged a protest... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*groan* That just sucks and is stupid. They need to go to replays then, so they can see if there really was an infraction--which there wasn't for the swimmer.

Are they using replay for eventing? I kind of doubt it.

I liked the swimmers friend who got silver. He said, "I'll protest" when they were going to take away the gold medal. I know they're friends, but that was great sportsmanship as well. He knew that Piersol had won and wouldn't cheat.

I wish we knew all the other participants could be trusted as well. It's really a sad, sad thing. I think the Olympics have lost their reason for existance. It's time they went away if this is what's going to keep happening. It's bad enough that they go to court to get a spot on the team. Now they are arguing over medals and people are blatantly trying to cheat in some cases, and other times the officials are being bias.

It's just sad...

Erin
Aug. 20, 2004, 03:02 PM
And on the other foot, I just read that Michael Phelps gave up his spot on the relay to a teammate...

I think the Olympic spirit is still there. Not always, but it's there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Velvet
Aug. 20, 2004, 03:09 PM
But, he'll still get a medal if he did the qualifying time trials.

Did Phelps do them? Or did he give up everything? They said he's exhausted from his schedule. Not that it isn't a nice thing, I was just wondering about those details.

Erin
Aug. 20, 2004, 03:12 PM
Nah, he'll still get a medal. Still a very nice gesture, I think.

findeight
Aug. 20, 2004, 03:16 PM
Well Velvet we agree on one thing....may you live past the first commercial in that red shirt.
I grok http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2004, 03:20 PM
A RULE allowed Ulla Salzgeber to restart her Dressage Test when the music had a problem, and a RULE says the time starts when you cross the start line after the buzzer. A RULE says you get time faults for going over the time allowed from the first time you cross the start after the buzzer, until you cross the finish after your round. Rules should be followed.

Sebastian
Aug. 20, 2004, 03:36 PM
I agree FHC. I've been biting my tongue through this whole thing, but let's face it... Crossing the start line in a jumping competition is the MOST BASIC OR RULES!!!!!! After that whistle blows, and you cross that startline, TIME BEGINS!!! End of story. It's the FIRST RULE WE'RE TAUGHT!

It's not about who rode best, who deserves to win or who's country is better. It's a simple rule and it was NOT ADHERED TOO! I've seen a lot of competitions both local and FEI level and NEVER have I seen officials back down from this particular rule. And, all the crap that's been said at Press conferences is just that -- crap. Their all just scrambling to try to save face and their butts. Bettina KNOWS she f-ed up, and it shows a distinct lack of character and courage on her part to not just fess up.

I think I'm most angry with the officials inability to show any leadership. Our sport is going to fall apart if simple straightforward rules like crossing the startline aren't being enforced.

There...I've vented. Flame away.
Seb http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

LLDM
Aug. 20, 2004, 04:05 PM
That's just it Sebastion, You don't know. I don't know. Bettina probably doesn't either. If you all have that little faith in your officials, I will submit to you that your sport is already in the toilet.

No one here has come up with a diagram of the course and location of the flags and eyes. No one knows if the timer reset happened before, after or because of a timer screw up. Or if the timer was human controller or automatic or a combo.

All of this is just guessing and assuming. The trainwreck will be reconstucted as best it can by those who were there. Some resolution will be reached by people who really have only their reputations to lose.

Whatever happens, happens. It may not even be fair. It might even be a compromise. The world won't end as we know it.

If you think it is all that bad, then don't go back to the Olympics.

There are more important things.

SCFarm

Sebastian
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:02 PM
Beg to differ. Bettina DOES KNOW exactly when she crossed the line and there have been pictures posted on this board showing her crossing it TWICE!!!!! And, she admittedly CHOSE to circle, and last time I checked there was not a clause in the rules that says you're excused from being held by their bounds because you're confused!

Don't give me this "we don't know" crap. Yes we do!!! There IS film.

Hrumph...

I just feel that there is a distinct and pervasive lack of personal responsiblity at these games.

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

3dazey
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:22 PM
Wow. Sigh. Everything's gonna be okay. I just read Jimmy Wofford's final entry in his Olympic Diary and I know that whatever happens everything's gonna be fine.

Thanks, Jimmy, for putting it all into perspective.

Madeline
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:45 PM
Seems to me that if you can't be bothered to enforce the rules at the Olympics, why bother to have any rules at all?

Erin
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:01 PM
Hey, before the Olympics in Salt Lake, I always thought it was just a figment of the conspiracy theorists' imagination that judges could be bought. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

No, of course, we don't know exactly what happened. There's a LOT of confusion about that, and the fact that all the people who DID see it are in Greece makes it hard for those of us on this side of the pond.

Personally, I'm not ready to condemn Bettina, simply because the whole thing is so confusing, and the facts aren't readily available.

I don't think it's at all inappropriate for us to be discussing this, though, and asking questions, and saying, "HEY! THIS SOUNDS REALLY FISHY!"

I dunno, personally I find it rather heartening that the vast vast majority of people here have such respect for the rules.

Anyway, tomorrow should be veeerrrry interesting... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DMK
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:12 PM
It's rehashing the "Pull a Klimke" thing, but I wasn't able to respond while I was having the Week From Hell, so here it goes...

1. Several of us refer to Tragic Misses at fences as "Pulling a Boykin" (I believe Merry and Beezer can relate http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) and no, you aren't supposed to get it unless you are extremely fine tuned to politics, but suffice to say a) a "Boykin" is a F-up of the most spctacular order and b) there is a person named "Boykin" out there.

By all reports, the Boykin in question has not suffered from this comparison. Would that it could only be so, but nevertheless, he marches on.

2. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who has even the most glancing relationship with the Miami Dolphins or the Dallas Cowboys fully, completely and totally understands the concept of "LETT It Be" ... as in Leon Lett. Or more precisely: "Leon, LETT the damn ball alone, and Do not TOUCH it!" (or if you were a Dolfan, Go Lean, GO, don't LETT the ball alone!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) Yuppers, Leon Lett handed a done deal Cowboy win to the Dolphins on Thanksgiving thanks to a hairbrained move that lives on in infamy.

By all accounts Leon still made his money for his performances, finished his career without ever making that mistake again, and while I don't think he chose Dallas to retire to, things went pretty well for Leon, all national jokes aside.

I think a Klimke hide is just as tough.

LLDM
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:20 PM
Yes, rules are important. But they can also be conflicting, confusing or inadequate to cover all situations. That's why we have proceedures to use when things aren't so clear. Fair is a complicated concept and very dependent on one's point of veiw.

It just disheartens me to see so many people willing to point fingers and accuse Brittina, the judges and anyone else they feel like vilifying. Our "free" country is predicated on innocent until proven guilty. We have committed out entire democracy to this ideal. Why throw it out now?

I always thought that the Olympics were about intense competition between nations in peace. An alternative to wars. The height of civility and sportsmanship in the face of intense pressure and competition.

If we can't trust those who have proven themselves worthy enough to judge the games then they have indeed lost ther meaning.

I choose to follow Jimmy Wofford's lead on this too. He gets it.

SCFarm

Beezer
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mademoiselle:
Second, if she really had a doubt about the timers, she would probably have looked around and/or stopped with a confused face to understand what is going on. When I watch the tape, I just see a rider who is working with her horse, 100% focusing on her riding.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Beezer
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Irish Ei's:
Erin..just a side note. I am truly disappointed by those who think that "Pulling a Bettina" is funny, endearing or anything but snippy,catty,nasty,Humiliating and demoralizing. Nothing about this is funny and to be remembered that way is shameful. Ignoring it is the same as condoning it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry ... but PUH-leeze. "Pulling a Bettina" ranks right up there with my personal favorite, "Boykinning the Oxer." If we can't find humor in a really crappy situation, then we are, well, screwed.

findeight
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:34 PM
Alright, I lived in Boston for 7 years.

It's Bucky Dent for the Germans and their fans.

Bucky was an infielder for the Red Sox at the twilight of his career, with awful knees that did not work so good anymore. He bent over to catch an easy grounder in a post season game (forget against whom). Too slow down and it rolled slowly between his legs on national TV.
They lost it and whatever post season series they were playing.
Wasn't all his fault,bad pitching, feeble hitting, fumble fingered fielding across the board, October and the "curse" contributed, but he got all the blame.
Moved out of the Boston area some years later when his 8 year old got death threats at school because of that grounder. Boston NEVER forgot or forgave.

Maybe Betinna knew what she did and maybe she was in a rush and didn't but she can forget it and move on. The whole team could have done a bit better and it would not have mattered.

Whatever she may or may not have known it's up to the officials and really is not her fault nor anything to blame her for.

Let's not turn her into a Bucky Dent.

ksbadger
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:43 PM
Not sure if this has been posted already but, as usual, Lucinda Green has her own opinion on the affair and the compettion in general. It was in yesterday's London "Telegraph". Read what she says here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/sport/2004/08/20/soluci20.xml).

She has a diametrically opposite view to our beloved editor but probably one closer to the UK & France's teams (not to mention the USA's).

can't re-
Aug. 20, 2004, 07:38 PM
Boynkin..Bettina...whatever! She spaced. If you watch the video, Bettina has her horse on a very obvious bend with no intention of going to the first fence the first time she crossed the timers. She is focused on getting ready to start a course she didn't know she had already started.
And again, as many have said: if you are riding a course and happen to notice the clock not working who would stop? No way! The rider's job is to complete the course not as technical director.
Bettina deserves a standing ovation for her riding but she needs to come clean and admit her mistake. Come on Bettina: the truth shall set ye free! Well, it may cost you a medal, but think about how much better you will sleep at night!

J. Turner
Aug. 20, 2004, 07:44 PM
For all the Yankee fans out there, I just want to clarify that it was Bill Buckner who let a ground ball roll between his legs on a routine play. It was Bucky Dent, a Yankee shortstop with no power, who stopped the Red Sox' dreams in the 70s with a home run that barely cleared the Green Monster. It was a one-game playoff at the end of the regular season since they ended tied.

For a baseball comparison, there's always the "pine-tar incident," in which George Brett's home run was declared void after Yankee manager Billy Martin protested that Brett's bat had pine tar too high up on it (18"? - the width of home plate at its widest). They didn't give back the home run on the Royals' appeal, but they replayed the end of the game and Royals won anyhow.

Merry
Aug. 20, 2004, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Several of us refer to Tragic Misses at fences as "Pulling a Boykin" (I believe Merry and Beezer can relate http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) and no, you aren't supposed to get it unless you are extremely fine tuned to politics, but suffice to say a) a "Boykin" is a F-up of the most spctacular order and b) there is a person named "Boykin" out there... he marches on.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you for my laugh of the evening.

Carry on.

Finnegan
Aug. 20, 2004, 08:34 PM
Just so I don't have to go thru the last 27 pages, where do we stand on the placings? Is the a firm verdict yet?

~Bev

Janet
Aug. 20, 2004, 08:41 PM
Nope.

Supposed to have a ruling from CAS on Saturday.

Risk-Averse Rider
Aug. 20, 2004, 08:52 PM
For those insomniacs out there who don't feel like watching swimming or other non-horsie sports, on the TAS-CAS web site, there's a section on case law where you can read about some prior cases, including a situation involving the Russians and the FEI and dressage qualification for Athens.

Some day, presumably, l'Affaire Bettina may be posted there.

www.tas-cas.org (http://www.tas-cas.org/)

Choose English or French, then click on Case Law/Jurisprudence.

Finnegan
Aug. 20, 2004, 08:53 PM
THanks!

~Bev

dancinglite
Aug. 21, 2004, 04:13 AM
Looks like they have now put French on top then Britian and US gets bronze for the team medals..

Since it is Dated Aug 21 I have to assume this is final ???


http://www.athens2004.com/en/resultsEquestrian/results?item=1074be55a6e7ef00VgnVCM4000002b130c0a_ ___&dcpnews=1&rsc=EQ0000000

DMK
Aug. 21, 2004, 04:55 AM
I don't know if I would assume anything, but it certainly is interesting!

Still, if it mentioned the subsequent German appeal of the judge's decision, followed by the tri-country appeal (could this be the infamous COTH famed trilateral commission? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) of that appeal, I would have a higher comfort level.

3dazey
Aug. 21, 2004, 05:01 AM
eventingetc.com is reporting the same, French gold, Brits silver, US bronze ("with more details to follow").

3dazey
Aug. 21, 2004, 05:04 AM
Wow...just checked again and they have taken that blurb off the top??? WHAZZUP? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

But they did post that US won bronze in dressage...that's pretty cool!!!

RegalBeagle
Aug. 21, 2004, 05:23 AM
My initial reaction to the this announcement:
Athens Results Site (http://www.athens2004.com/en/resultsEquestrian/results?item=1074be55a6e7ef00VgnVCM4000002b130c0a_ ___&dcpnews=1&rsc=EQ0000000)

is hacker? but I haven't other sources. Yikes this is confusing.

LLDM
Aug. 21, 2004, 07:06 AM
I believe that correction is only related to the aleged initial protest of the French team to Bettina Hoy's ride. I have read elsewhere that no such protest was brought. That the Ground Jury made the desicion on their own.

So the part about the French team protesting initially was simply removed. Hence the update.

SCFarm

Dow Jones
Aug. 21, 2004, 07:21 AM
It's final- US gets the bronze.

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2677562

Oscar
Aug. 21, 2004, 07:31 AM
Mark Phillips called Darren at 9:50 am to state the CAS ruled in favor of the French protest. US Bronze, Kim and U.K. silver and France gold. It's over. The Fat Lady can sing.

mademoiselle
Aug. 21, 2004, 07:41 AM
I'm really sad for Bettina Hoy, but I'm happy for our sport. I think it would have been sad and unfair to not apply the rule.

Sorry for you Gnep, but that was the fair thing to do.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 21, 2004, 08:47 AM
Bettina rode brilliantly, but made a costly mistake. It was a very expensive way to learn a lesson. That is the reason we have been so adamant about sticking to the rules at our little Combined Tests. We have tried to make sure people learn how important the rules are before they ride at that level. Shows that overlook the rules are really not doing anyone a favor.

dancinglite
Aug. 21, 2004, 08:51 AM
This makes me VERY VERY happy !!!

radar
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:05 AM
It's good to finally have (at least what we think is) all of the information about what ACTUALLY occurred! Good for the committee for doing the right thing, and good for Kim and the US of A!!! The clock having started twice in actuality makes a HUGE difference.... no margin for misconception or error!!

Peggy
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Bettina rode brilliantly, but made a costly mistake. It was a very expensive way to learn a lesson. That is the reason we have been so adamant about sticking to the rules at our little Combined Tests. We have tried to make sure people learn how important the rules are before they ride at that level. Shows that overlook the rules are really not doing anyone a favor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Before a group of us evented for the first time, a local eventer (probably the only local eventer) took the time to go over stuff with us one night and then met us for a x-c school. I still remember her telling us that eventing was a sport based on rules.

aurum
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:24 AM
I find this very sad and the complaint of the others is against all fairness and not at all sportive from the competitors. No matter what, the German riders were the best riders and had meritted the medals.

alexandra
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:24 AM
What a decision !

For once the Germans have a 3day eventing team that earned a title and then they are ripped of a medal because judges made a mistake and some people that I would love to call some names complain !

It does not matter whether the team is German and I am aswell. I would have felt the same for any other nation.

Madeline
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by alexandra:
What a decision !

For once the Germans have a 3day eventing team that earned a title and then they are ripped of a medal because judges made a mistake and some people that I would love to call some names complain !

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny. I haven't heard a word about the Judges circling through the timers twice...

Your riders had two and 3/4 brilliant days then one of them made a bumbling novice mistake. Not our fault.

Flash back 4 years. If David O'Connor had actually circled when he was temporarily befuddled by where the course went would you be so quick to award him the medal because he <span class="ev_code_RED">REALLY</span> deserved it?

I thought not.

Erin
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:30 AM
I agree it's a shame, as Bettina RODE well enough to win.

But even Mark Todd, who I would daresay is probably better than damn near everyone else on an OFF day, was eliminated when he missed a flag (or was it missed the start flag) once on phase A at a very important event. (Don't remember which one.) Even Mark Todd had to suffer the consequences of a stupid, purely technical mistake.

Bettina rode wonderfully, but goofed up on a very basic thing. Unfortunately, she and her team have to live with the consequences of that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

It's sad for all the riders involved. It's too bad the call couldn't have been made immediately on the field, rather than days after the fact. If the ground jury had been on top of things and announced her as having 12 faults right off the bat, I don't think this would be as upsetting for everyone. Geez, the official standings for this event changed THREE times! That's gotta be some kind of record... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

alexandra
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by alexandra:
What a decision !

For once the Germans have a 3day eventing team that earned a title and then they are ripped of a medal because judges made a mistake and some people that I would love to call some names complain !

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny. I haven't heard a word about the Judges circling through the timers twice...

Your riders had two and 3/4 brilliant days then one of them made a bumbling novice mistake. Not our fault.

Flash back 4 years. If David O'Connor had actually circled when he was temporarily befuddled by where the course went would you be so quick to award him the medal because he _<span class="ev_code_RED">REALLY</span>_ deserved it?

I thought not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Madeline, where do I write that the judges crossed the line twice ? I cannot read that. I wrote that the judges made a mistake and they did: they turned the clock back to zero ! What do the rules say if you start the course and the clock dooes not ump on ? Any rules for that ? I wonder what would have happened than. A second bell disqualifying her immediatly ?

I Do not know you but are you able to think of all the consequences during your ride when you check on the clocks and see you have still time and are you able to make the same decision that took all juries quite a few sessions to discuss and decide ? I do not think so, but that is another matter. And I think you cannot compare that David O'connor case. His forgetting affected really his course. She showed the part that is actually the riding part in a great manner and she was able to pull all her power together to show the great individual round after all the fuss aready going on.

If I were in any of the now n medal winners shoes, I can tell you, I would not feel good. But this is something everybody has to make up with themselve.
And in addition no matter what the decisions were: The french behaved in my eyes in a very nasty way. She congratulated them for their riding and they shook heads and turned away, not taking that. That is nasty and misbehaving !!!

Erin
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:59 AM
Alexandra, I can understand being upset at having two gold medals, then none, then two, then none... which is what the German team went through.

But I haven't read anywhere that the French were nasty. Not saying it didn't happen, but how do you know this? In their press releases, they specifically gave kudos to Bettina. I just don't want to see nasty rumors started.

I think what madeline is referring to is the fact that you stated the judges made a mistake. (I assume you're referring to the timing error.) They may have, but BETTINA ALSO MADE A MISTAKE, and one that would have had consequences at ANY event.

I know I'm American, and our placings improved slightly, but I don't personally feel like I have anything invested in this -- I don't really care who got what medals. What bothers me is that a mistake that would have been penalized at ANY local, rinkydink unrecognized event would have been overlooked and the rider awarded an Olympic individual gold. That ain't right.

LLDM
Aug. 21, 2004, 10:03 AM
Madeline - Now that you have your medals, can you be gracious? Alexandra has every right to feel disappointment and frustration. If you two traded places you would probably feel the same. You had your turn to vent, doesn't she get a turn too?

Maybe the ruling is fair to the sport, the rules and the French, British and Americans. It is not necessarily fair to the Germans and Bittina. To ride the best and win, then not win, then win, and then finally not, is certainly not fair to them, nor is it their fault.

If it had be the US, you bet we would have appealed those points added way after the fact. Obviously something had gone very wrong. It happens dispite everone's attempts to be perfect. Even riders. Even judges.

Alexandra is correct. The judges restated the timer when they should not have. They did screw up. I am sure they did not mean too. It seems they and Bettina both made mistakes. They are all paying for them now.

Leave it be and let the Germans be. They have every right to be frustrated and disappointed. They are eventers in a country of dressage and jumper riders/breeders/trainers. This must sting doubley so.

You all were mad at the judges. Now they are. Understandable.

SCFarm

Madeline
Aug. 21, 2004, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by alexandra:

Madeline, where do I write that the judges crossed the line twice ? I cannot read that. I wrote that the judges made a mistake and they did: they turned the clock back to zero ! What do the rules say if you start the course and the clock dooes not ump on ? Any rules for that ? I wonder what would have happened than. A second bell disqualifying her immediatly ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that there is a difference between judges and timing technicians. From what I've read, this competition, as is the case with any half-decent competition in the world, had back-up timers.

In any case, it is NOT the responsibility of the RIDER to determine whether the clocks are working. That is one of the jobs of the officials. The rider just has to follow the rules for riders, in this case, wait for the buzzer that says the course is open, get to the timers within 45 seconds and proceed directly to the first fence. JUmp all the other fences in the correct order, and cross through the finish timers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I Do not know you but are you able to think of all the consequences during your ride when you check on the clocks and see you have still time and are you able to make the same decision that took all juries quite a few sessions to discuss and decide ? I do not think so, but that is another matter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the responsibility of the rider.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And I think you cannot compare that David O'connor case. His forgetting affected really his course. She showed the part that is actually the riding part in a great manner and she was able to pull all her power together to show the great individual round after all the fuss aready going on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rules is rules.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If I were in any of the now n medal winners shoes, I can tell you, I would not feel good. But this is something everybody has to make up with themselve.
And in addition no matter what the decisions were: The french behaved in my eyes in a very nasty way. She congratulated them for their riding and they shook heads and turned away, not taking that. That is nasty and misbehaving !!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personal accountability is unpopular in these times. Just as Bettina Hoy is the only one responsible for her error, the French are responsible for their behavior. Not me in either case.

LLDM
Aug. 21, 2004, 10:09 AM
Erin - I did read this somewhere too, about or around the medals ceremony I think. Not sure where though, 'cause I have been all over the net.

Considering how some of the things folks have said about Bittina being a poor sport on this thread, I hardly think Alexandra is out of line here.

JMHO.

SCFarm

Erin
Aug. 21, 2004, 10:26 AM
Hmm. I hadn't read that anywhere, but if it's true, that's really bad sportsmanship on the part of the French.

It's too bad this thing became such a clustermuck. I hope this all actually gets looked into thoroughly and explained, because the comedy of errors that played out just made things really frustrating for everyone involved. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

mairzeadoats
Aug. 21, 2004, 10:29 AM
I think it's too bad that they didn't do a thorough investigation when the German team first appealed the penalty points. They could have avoided 2 or 3 days of mind-changing and they also could have avoided the anguish they put the German team through.

It seems that in the other sports where judges or officials have made errors, they've either allowed the athletes to perform the test a second time or they've given out two golds to avoid penalizing any of the athletes.

For example, in Sydney, the gymnastic 'horse' was accidentally set at the wrong height, causing several gymnasts to have terrible falls when they landed. They let them repeat their vaults. And in this games they are already considering a double-gold for men's gymnastics because they gave one of the gymnasts the wrong difficulty level for his program. The American who won the gold said he couldn't believe he won because he knew his own routine didn't have a high enough difficulty level to allow him to win.

That said, in this case from what I've read, once Bettina heard the bell and crossed the line, she should have just kept going. Instead, she inadvertantly compounded the official mistake with one of her own.

arnika
Aug. 21, 2004, 10:46 AM
Since I have posted on this before I just want to add two other things. I can completely understand aurum and alexandra being upset with the judge(as reported in the original olymoic statement) that reset the timer on Bettina's second circle. I agree with that, actually even said that in my opinion that judge should lose their "O" rating. But just as I think that judge should be held accountable for that error, so Bettina should be for her mistake. I'm quite sure she feels awful enough as it is. That point about her being an eventer in non-eventerland really applies here.

The other point I wanted to bring up is when I was lokking at the athen's site there is another scandal! Paul Hamm(an American gymnast) won the gold medal in the all-around by .012 points over a two South Koreans. It turns out one of the Koreans was given too low of a starting point(9.9 instead of 10.0) for his routine and should have finished 0.10 points higher than he did. He got bronze. The error was made by the judges and the IOC is saying it cannot be overturned because it has been so long. Again in my opinion I don't care how long after the fact the mistake is found, it should be rectified and the Korean given the gold. I'm very sorry for Paul Hamm and was thrilled when I thought he had battled his way back up into winning. However, I believe in fair play for everyone and not just results in my home country's favor.

I'm sure my thoughts won't make anyone feel better about this situation but just wanted to let everyone know that my opinion is not directed against anyone personally.

By the way, the three judges responsible for that gymnastic mistake have been suspended.

lovetheduns
Aug. 21, 2004, 10:57 AM
Personally to me it is irrevelant if the judges started the clock once twice or a hundred times. The simple fact remains is that Bettina made an extremely novice error and went through the starting line twice. It sucks that it was such a technical error, but I bet she will never make that one again!

LLDM
Aug. 21, 2004, 11:06 AM
Well, I do hope, now that we have the "last" official results, that someone does a full reconstruction of what happened. It is obvious that mistakes were made. But I am not at all clear who made what when.

I think it is very important to find out, lest it happen again! We really need to learn from this.

One of the press releases said that timing was provided by "Swatch" (as in the Swiss watch company). How much is automatic and how much is handled by timers or judges I do not know.

I absolutely honestly think this all happened because everyone was trying so hard to do the right things and be fair. Including Bettina, the judges, the appeals people, ALL the teams, the FEI, etc. There is so much pressure at the Olympics to be perfect all the way around. Sometimes it backfires, but from more from pressure rather than politics or cheating (as some have implied).

What I would really love to see happen is for all involved to make formal statements to the press. Some quotes have been floating around that have truely upset me. I only hope that some things that were said in the heat of the moment and the rush and release of adrenilan(sp?) were NOT the true and complete feelings of those who said them. If they were, I lose some respect over all this. And that would be very devestating to me.

On a brighter note: I have turned into a real Jimmy Wofford fan. Though his words, and his eyes, I really believe this will all turn out for the good. We will learn, become stronger, become smarter, and carry on.

SCFarm

Erin
Aug. 21, 2004, 11:10 AM
Well said, LLDM.

By the way, this week's poll on the COTH magazine site is regarding whether or not Bettina should have kept her medal. You can vote by going to http://www.chronofhorse.com ... the survey is a little ways down on the left-hand side.

blaster
Aug. 21, 2004, 11:48 AM
I find this topic really interesting. I started a post a few weeks ago, when my husband proposed a training level rider at my sanctioned event should have been eliminated for viloation of the 2X time limit XC rule. The mood of the other posters was "mind your own damn business", we are EVENTERS!!

Ironically, the mood of this post is "rules are rules, tough noogies", and everyone agrees that crossing the flags is a NOVICE mistake.

So in a nut shell, eventers don't give a damn about rules until we loose an Olympic medal (or gain one) to a fluke?

Jumphigh83
Aug. 21, 2004, 11:54 AM
Re Our two German subscibers who feel that the judges made a mistake...THE RIDER made the mistake! She crossed the tiers AFTER the start signal! Many many times in show jumping the timers malfunction or go off but I have NEVER seen an exhibitor pull up and wait til the timers were "fixed"! That is why there are back up times. I feel bad and could care less what country wins the medals but the German people and team should look at ONE person for this error and it isnt the IOC, the Officals or the other countries...hint....the one who made the error! The Rider! (and I do feel bad for her and the team but stuff happens and it doesnt matter how great you ride if you dont have a grasp of the basic rules then....oh well...)

Weatherford
Aug. 21, 2004, 11:58 AM
Oh, I, too, have seen Events where certain kids are penalized for "too fast" while certain others not penalized at all for stopping between the last fence and the finish line (a clear violation of rules). When brought to the judges & steward's attention, I was told that it was up to the fence judges and timers... So, one kid got "screwed" (she would have won the event, and according to my watch was NOT too fast at all.) and the other wound up winning and getting all sorts of special awards...

Is that fair? No. Is it the norm. Yes.

I am of the double-gold camp. There used to be a rule that once a ribbon/award is handed out, and the judges cards handed in, it can't be changed.

Double-gold. Or, perhaps, just a gold for the BEST HORSE IN THE WORLD!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

mbp
Aug. 21, 2004, 12:20 PM
A note on the difference between the gymnastics situation and the eventing situation. In the gymnastics dispute, the appeal was not timely filed during the competition as required by the gymnastics dispute resolution rules. That is the main reason that the medals are not being switched. The coach should get a smack for that.

Every sport has its rules for howand when a complaint may be lodged. Eventing has VERY specific rules. I have seen "winners" be eliminated for a standing martingale after finishing a clean stadium course. I was at an event many years ago when the rule was that objections had to be made within 1/2 hour after scores were posted (and the times of posting were included with scores). A rider with 3 horses at training was marked eliminated because a jump judge did not show her ever going over that judge's fence. She was riding, did not appeal within the 1/2 hour, and the fact that the event photographer had a picture of her going over the fence ended up making no difference. When it comes to appeals, you do it right or you may as well not do it. The coaches should know they appeals procedures cold and make sure they protect their athletes IMO&gt;

As to Bettina, the problem seems to be that she likely did not realize she had gone through the start flags. That's too bad, but it does have consequences. The filings with the CAS indicated that she went through the start flags and the clock was started - all as it should have been. She then inexplicably circled and went through them again. She said something about their being 35 secs still on the 45 sec clock, but the factual filings indicated that the on course clock was started (and eventing ALWAYS has back up timers, so that should not have been her worry or concern). It was after she circled and went through again that the timers, confused and presumably trying to help her, re-started the clock.

But at the time she went through the first time, I do not think any officials did anything wrong. It is just that she didn't realize she had gone through. If you read her statements immediately after, that is what it sounds like (she mentioned going "close" to the start but not through it).

If, for example, someone had a stop at the first element of an in-out and knocked rails so the element had to be reset, and the timers messed up and reset the rider's time to zero when they started back, I don't think anyone would say that the rider should not be counted with the refusal or that the rider should get the "short" time (esp when there are back up timers). Granted, she did not have a stop at an obstacle, but she did have a technical disobediance - the 2nd circle through the flags.

If anyone was rude to her - that is awful. She is a wonderful rider and had the best overall ride. But there are lots of elements. SOmeone can have a great ride on cc, but have a controversial jog and get spun. Somone can have a great ride, with an illegal piece of saddlery and get spun. REmember the poor little gymnast who lost her medals bc her coach and team doctor gave her cold medicine? It could not have helped her at all, but she lost her medals.

It's a sad thing, but not really a tremendously rare thing in eventing. I don't know of many eventers or ex-eventers who don't have some war story like the martingales. I also know of riders who jumped the wrong fence (a novice and training course had nearby fences with the same fence number - the rider jumped the training jump instead of their novice jump --- eliminated). It's not that rare in any of the equestrian sports it seems. Wasn't Steffan Peters eliminated from a freestyle recently bc of having a triple pirouette?

Bettina can always be proud of her ride, her horse and her training. To be honest, outside of Germany her name will probably be even BETTER remembered bc of the controversy. Someone not immersed in eventing will probably remember it as the gold that Bettina Hoy "won" but then had some technical problem and they gave it to "someone else". I betcha.

It's sad, but it happens - be happy for how well they did and what it bodes for the future. Anger over the application of the rules is just a waste of energy.

aurum
Aug. 21, 2004, 01:14 PM
It is definitely true the French denied the handshake of Bettina who wanted to congratulate them for their Silver Medal. I think it is nasty to do so and then go against the Gold Medal winners out of pure greed and jealousy. No matter what the French did not ride as well as the Germans. Here is the link to the affront of the French team:
http://onsport.t-online.de/c/23/36/35/2336358.html
sorry it is in German only.

867-5309
Aug. 21, 2004, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:

There used to be a rule that once a ribbon/award is handed out, and the judges cards handed in, it can't be changed.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not aware of that rule. Was that FEI/AHSA sanctioned?

No double gold. This isn't Romper Room, it's the Olympics!

LLDM
Aug. 21, 2004, 01:42 PM
Okay, I am NOT trying to stir things up here again at all. BUT - If it was so clear to the judges that she went through the start flags twice, why was her score EVER posted? Why did it take an hour (as stated by the AP wires) to change? If it was all that "simple", if it was an obvious "silly mistake" wouldn't it have been immediately noted/announced, etc.?

In horse racing the times start flashing almost immediately if there is a problem that needs to be sorted out. (Well, I'm sure it's because they don't want to pay off any bets to early http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

All I am saying is if the judges noticed this immediately, they would/should have never let the round be posted immediately. I am not saying she didn't go through twice. But it seems there was something else that happened too, which wasn't so clear to the judges.

I do not disagree with CAS, the whole process, or where the medals ended up. I just think we really need to figure out the whole series of events. So it doesn't happen again.

I believe the Germans had a duty to their country and team to appeal. I believe the US, Brits and French had a duty to also. They are all responsible for looking after the best interests of their team and country. The process is in place for a reason. It all needs to go to cooler heads in these cases.

The only thing better than an appeals process that works, is one that is unnecessary.

There has been so much heartbreak this time around.

SCFarm

3dazey
Aug. 21, 2004, 02:24 PM
Hey Weatherford, if it helps any at all, in his Olympic diary, Jimmy Wofford thinks that RC is a pretty cool horse, too. (Love love love that end part...have read it over and over. If you haven't already please do, I know from your posts that you really love RC.)

mbp
Aug. 21, 2004, 02:27 PM
I think it would depend on the angle that you watched from as to whether or not you saw it. The starters did and that is why they re-started the clock . But it is definitely conceivable that the ground jury did not. Even if they had caught it, they would not have buzzed her - it was not an elimination type of a mistake, just deductions. All of the scores did go up as "unofficial" initially.

If they didn't catch it, that is why there is a complaint procedure - to bring these things up. Then they had to review video and be absolutely sure. The subsequent FEI panel felt that restarting the clock left her unaware of her mistake and of the time clicking against her and that was unfair. They never found that she didn't go through the flags twice, or that the timer was not correctly started the first time, but just that when it was re-set the second time it made it unfair.

mbp
Aug. 21, 2004, 02:30 PM
WEatherford - wasn't that a hunter rule? Handing in the judge's card? The GJ for an event doesn't have cards to hand unless that is an FEI requirement.

mbp
Aug. 21, 2004, 02:38 PM
Aurum - that is just awful about refusing to shake her hand. Not just tacky - but petty and mean spirited.

I don't know if it will make you and Alexandra feel any better or not, but our US press somehow has decided that it is Ulla who is getting her placing changed. :lol

look at caption under the picture (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5776734/)

To date, it would take someone pretty silly to not admit that the Germans have been kicking *ss, in both the 3 day and the dressage. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin
Aug. 21, 2004, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aurum:
It is definitely true the French denied the handshake of Bettina who wanted to congratulate them for their Silver Medal. I think it is nasty to do so and then go against the Gold Medal winners out of pure greed and jealousy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aurum, if the French were in fact rude to Bettina, that is terrible. However, I don't think it's fair to say that their protest was out of greed or jealousy. For God's sake, she made a BLATANT violation of the rules... one that any Pony Clubber would recognize.

If her team felt there was a valid reason as to why she broke the rule, it was up to them to explain that to the ground jury. Sometimes, yes, there are extenuating circumstances. But the fact remains that SHE BROKE A RULE. And I don't fault the French at all for saying, "Um, hey, isn't she not supposed to do that?"

I am really disturbed by the fact that so many people are saying "The Germans RODE best, they should win." If we start picking and choosing when we follow the rules, why have them at all? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Velvet
Aug. 21, 2004, 02:49 PM
I'm stunned by the entire affair, and I do have to say that David is one of the best people we could have representing the USEA. He's so savvy, he knows the rights and wrongs and he's an incredibly well respected competitor. I couldn't be more proud of him.

Risk-Averse Rider
Aug. 21, 2004, 03:46 PM
My apologies if someone already posted this. Here's the direct link to the report of the TAS-CAS:

CAS arbitration N° CAS OG 04/007 (http://www.tas-cas.org/en/pdf/hOY.PDF)

It's a PDF file.

equescool
Aug. 21, 2004, 04:10 PM
At this level of competition, following the rules is imperative. I remember hearing a quote at a business conference that made total sense to me and framed my life: "It is not enough to do your best, you must do that which is required."

Certainly the Germans rode well, maybe the best, but the rider had to do 'that which is required' and she knew what that was as a person competing at this level. It is very unfortunate, but it was a valid rule violation.

Bad behavior by the French team does not help the situation, but hey, it's the French &lt;G&gt; EQ

Ja Da Dee
Aug. 21, 2004, 04:17 PM
RAR, thanks for the link, it's nice to finally read the real story.

Shirrine
Aug. 21, 2004, 04:35 PM
Did anyone notice that in one of those news reports that it was Ulla Salzberger who was dropped from 1st to 4th in the 3DE. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2004, 06:08 PM
Every time I read "Oh, Bettina should be sportsmanlike and give back the medal," I wonder if that is the position they would have if Kim Severenson had made that mistake. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

bounce
Aug. 21, 2004, 06:27 PM
I don't think that there would be the question if it were Kim. I think she would have graciously handed over the medal without being told too.

LLDM
Aug. 21, 2004, 06:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bounce:
I don't think that there would be the question if it were Kim. I think she would have graciously handed over the medal without being told too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I applaud (and agree) with your high opinion of Kim, it is not up to an individual athlete what becomes of their medals. They are beholden to the country that sent them and the team they compete with. It is one of those things that distinguishes the Olympics from any other competition.

SCFarm

Gnep
Aug. 21, 2004, 07:17 PM
As usualy in a case like this there are no real winners.
I think everybody hast lost, the French, the Germans, the British and the USA. Any result like this, will always leaves a soure taste.

But sportsmanship is that one respects those decisions, without anger and without gloating

I hope that Eventing just hasn't sufford its final Olympic los

Well as they say, there is hopefuly always
a nother ride.

Janet
Aug. 21, 2004, 07:52 PM
Interesting typo in the CAS decision.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the Ground Jury "is ultimately responsible for the jumping of the event and for settling all
problems that may arise during its jurisdiction". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
JUMPING??

fernie fox
Aug. 21, 2004, 07:58 PM
I dont understand all the faffing about here.

Plain and simple,she went through the start TWICE.

Not allowed at ANY level

Heather
Aug. 21, 2004, 08:03 PM
I feel terrible about what happened to Bettina. She has a lovely horse, and rode really well.

But, as has been stated repeatedly, SHE MADE THE MISTAKE. It's a mistake plenty of people have made, and had to pay the consequences.

Some years ago a friend of mine was at Radnor, had a top five dressage test, and went double clear on cross country to move into second. Except that between the last fence and the finish flage, her weight pad broke lose, fell to the ground, and she was eliminated. We were, needless to say, heartbroken. But, the rule said you had to cross the finish line with your weight pad--and she didn't So even though she had the weight pad for 99.9% of the course, she was eliminated. Because that was the rule.

I just can't understand why it should be Ok for her to break the rules? Any of us would be penalized. Somone explain it me.

As for the alleged French snub, well, while it's certainly not the sportsmanship you'd love to see, I wonder how many here would, having lost a gold medal because someone was apprently allowed to break the rules, would feel full of brotherly love? For the same reason, I don't expect Bettina to be all smiles and sunshine when she has to give her medals back. I'd expect her to cry, and say a few things not fit to print. And I'd not hold it against her.

As for the timeline, and the giving of the medals, etc. It is my understanding, from talking with somone there, that the ground jury didn't make an immediate pronouncment precisely BECAUSE they wanted to be 100% sure of what they saw--they reviewed tapes, clock, etc. I do not believe the ground jury took this at all lightly, nor was it a task they enjoyed.

Similarly, the appeals committee tried to do what was right, although they made a mistake in even hearing the case to begin with. It's easy to blame the gournd jury for this sordid mess, but the truth is, it never would have grown to this degree if the hearing committee had just simply said to the Germans, sorry, out of our juristiction to hear an appeal on this matter. No less dissapintment for the Germans, but less painful and drawn out.

As for the poster questioning about a previous thread regarding someone going overtime on the cross country after muliple stops, and a fall as I recall, claiming to only care about rules when it takes our medal away. Well, that's pretty freaking cynical, but I have two comments. First, while I would have told you it was certainly your right to file a protest and have that competitior eliminated, I'm not sure what the purpose would have been. She was certainly dead last--dead last versus eliminated, what makes the difference? But secondly, and more importantly, it's the freaking Olympics! if ever there is a place where rules should be upheld to the hgihest degree and followed to the letter it's there!

This was a sad, and unfortunate mess, but i think in the end, the right decision was reached.

alexandra
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:25 PM
The behaviour of the French was reported quite a few time in German TV. So from my understanding this information was official at the time I posted, interesting that it was not shown anywhere else. I Think it was reported to have happened during team ceremony.
I am not a person starting rumours just out of the blue.
I have friends that have been there,maybe they have seen something and will report.

xegeba
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:34 PM
Oh, who cares if some French rider snubbed Bettina. Who cares if the entire French team snubbed Bettina. What if Bettina deseved to be snubbed? Who here is not guilty of being a poor sport and snubbing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mariequi
Aug. 21, 2004, 10:08 PM
I remember the weight pad incident at Radnor.

"At this level of competition, following the rules is imperative...." At THIS level. Following the rules is imperative. Period.

mademoiselle
Aug. 21, 2004, 10:20 PM
I don't really agree with the behaviour of the French on the podium, they are pros and a silver medal was already a real accomplishment.

Now, I can also understand that they didn't feel overjoy to congratulate the Germans knowing that Bettina made a mistake and that for a few hours they were virtually gold medals. The whole 'fiasco' probably spoiled their podium.

I still think they should have sucked it up, but I understand what was going on in heir mind.

Gnep
Aug. 21, 2004, 10:25 PM
xegeba

I think you are absolutly the minority, nobody deserves to be snubbed.

Bounce your naivity is sweet, Kim would have kept her Medal, till to the last moment and rightly so.
As the US gymnastic keeps his overall medal dispit the confirmed error in judging, the judges got suspended and he keeps his medal.
And rightly so, becuase it was awarded to him.

horse_poor
Aug. 22, 2004, 05:29 AM
i do not want to read the past 20 pages, but I am watching SJ right now and there was a commentary about Germaning losing the gold-is this a final decision? one of the commentators said hoy "made a mistake every pony clubber around the world knows better than to make--the start line is radioactive and you do not go thru it until you are ready to start your course."

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 22, 2004, 05:49 AM
Gnep
I actually disagree with the Gymnastics medal. I know that according to the rules the protest was filed too late, but if it was me - personally, I would give it to it's rightful owner.

Weatherford
Aug. 22, 2004, 06:45 AM
Thank GOD they ELIMINATED WEIGHT PADS for BOTH SHow Jumping adn Three Day!!!

Can you IMAGINE what the great women riders and Olympians of the 60's & 70's would have done had their horses had not HAD to carry more LEAD WEIGHTS than they (the riders) could CARRY!??!!!????!!!

Risk-Averse Rider
Aug. 22, 2004, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Thank GOD they ELIMINATED WEIGHT PADS for BOTH SHow Jumping adn Three Day!!!

Can you IMAGINE what the great women riders and Olympians of the 60's & 70's would have done had their horses had not HAD to carry more LEAD WEIGHTS than they (the riders) could CARRY!??!!!????!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know those pesky fruitbats must be around here somewhere, but I certainly can't find them!

Translated: HUH? Please explain.

ponygrl
Aug. 22, 2004, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Weatherford:
Thank GOD they ELIMINATED WEIGHT PADS for BOTH SHow Jumping adn Three Day!!!

Can you IMAGINE what the great women riders and Olympians of the 60's & 70's would have done had their horses had not HAD to carry more LEAD WEIGHTS than they (the riders) could CARRY!??!!!????!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I know those pesky fruitbats must be around here somewhere, but I certainly can't find them!

Translated: HUH? Please explain.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Until, what 1996 or 1997?,all horses in a 3day had to carry a minimum of 165 pounds including rider & saddle. Now for me, that would be about an additional 20lbs of lead that would have to be placed under my saddle.

Thankfully the FEI took away that rule a few years ago.

RacetrackReject
Aug. 22, 2004, 01:41 PM
Not to change the subject, but since it has been brought up on this thread- Has Paul or the US made any sort of official statement about the incident in the gymnastics competition? I have always thought Paul was a class act and if he is not allowed (by the IOC, USA, whomever) to give back the gold medal, I would have hoped he would make a statement to that decision. Something along the lines of "I know I didn't really win this, but I can't give it back. I'm terribly sorry to *the competitor who should have won it*." I'm very disappointed that he can't/hasn't given the medal to the guy who really won it.

evenstar
Aug. 22, 2004, 02:11 PM
I suspect that now Paul is just getting on with life, given that he has to get himself ready for the individual events. Probably not a good idea from a psychological standpoint for him to be saying how undeserving he is.

From what I read in the newspapers, the Koreans were late filing the protest, so what's done is done. I really admire the Hamm brothers, so I can't say I'm unhappy with Paul's gold medal. Still, I'd be happier if it were without taint, and I'd not have been upset if he'd ended up with silver after the major mistake he made.
Makes you wonder a little how much the judges are influenced by "the STORY". I know most dressage judges I've ever scribed for know how horses in the class are ranking. Many ask me to keep track of scores as the class is going on.

ESG
Aug. 22, 2004, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sebastian:
Beg to differ. Bettina DOES KNOW exactly when she crossed the line and there have been pictures posted on this board showing her crossing it TWICE!!!!! And, she admittedly CHOSE to circle, and last time I checked there was not a clause in the rules that says you're excused from being held by their bounds because you're confused!

Don't give me this "we don't know" crap. Yes we do!!! There IS film.

Hrumph...

I just feel that there is a distinct and pervasive lack of personal responsiblity at these games.

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you. About time someone spelled it out for those who are still confused about this whole mess. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

LLDM
Aug. 22, 2004, 05:09 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

AllyCat
Aug. 22, 2004, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Until, what 1996 or 1997?,all horses in a 3day had to carry a minimum of 165 pounds including rider & saddle. Now for me, that would be about an additional 20lbs of lead that would have to be placed under my saddle.

Thankfully the FEI took away that rule a few years ago. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And while this might sound fair at the outset (all carry some minimum weight) Carol Koslowski (sp?) worked tirelessly to get studies done showing that this lead (=dead) weight was detrimental to the horses' well-being.

In the end, the studies proved she was right and they removed the weight requirement.

Has anyone noticed that 'weight pad and lead' is STILL on the USEA packing list????

Ellie K
Aug. 22, 2004, 05:56 PM
I think the technical issues are irrelevant, not that I think it was wrong to debate them for 30-some pages. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif What Bettina did, what the judge and/or timer did, doesn't matter. What matters is that the German team did not follow the procedure outlined in the general regulations, by going to the Appeal Committee instead of filing an objection with the GJ as per the rules.

Whether they did that because they didn't know the rule, or because they thought they could influence the appeal committee (whose president was also FEI vice president), I don't know and won't speculate. I hope those from our side who have made statements to that effect had some evidence to go on rather than just assuming that, otherwise they have unnecessarily cast a shadow on the whole incident and made it look like just a case of being sore losers.

It is entirely possible that the German team officials didn't know these particular rules regarding the limited jurisdiction of the appeals committee. To say the FEI General REgulations are not widely read is a massive understatement. I have seen this problem of top level people not knowing the rules occur time after time, it is one of the FEI's biggest problems. But if they didn't know, the situation is not totally their fault either as the 'officials' - i.e., the appeals committee, are supposed to know them and uphold them.

The monster %*&#-up, was that the appeal committee even considered their appeal, rather than referring the German team back to the GJ to make a formal objection. MAJOR screw up on the FEI's part. These rules are plain as day, and there are very few situations where the FEI rules come out so plainly.

The FEI had no case. And I think attributing it to a 'different interpretation' of those rules is straight BS. The rules could not be more clear.

That said, I would have been perfectly happy if they reversed the appeals decision, but then referred it back to the GJ and allowed the German team to make a formal objection, even though the time limit for doing so had expired. I think that would have been fair given all the elements involved. And if the GJ had reconsidered and ruled in favor of the athlete after the objection was lodged, I think that would have been justified.

Janet
Aug. 22, 2004, 06:57 PM
The genreal rule at ALL levels of eventing, from BN though the Olympics, is

FIRST you "enquire" (it is never called a protest a this point) of the ground jury.

THEN, if the Ground jury rules against you, and you think you have grounds for appeal, you put up your money and register an official "protest" to the appeals committee.

FWIW, n the US, the appeals committee often DOES get called on to rule on matters of fact ("Did horse X jump the correct last fence of cross country, or did she jump the first fence backwards instead?" or "Did horse Z actually take a step backwards between the start line and the first fence?") rather than just "interpretation of the rules".

Ellie K
Aug. 22, 2004, 09:00 PM
WOW, Janet. That's good to know.

One big reason I think the ruling is objectively correct, is that the people on the appeals committee are not required to be FEI officials. One member must be or have been an I or O judge (or TD in eventing), but the others do not. I can't remember who the 3rd member was, but Freddy Serpieri and Hugh Thomas aren't FEI judges. So it doesn't make any sense to me that you could rely on non-judges to adjudicate a matter where a judge's expertise is clearly required. If this were the case, any complaint about a dressage score could be appealed to people who are not even judges and the events would never end because the GJ would have no 'real' authority to determine conclusively what went on. Their authority has to be absolute as to what went on in the "field of play" otherwise you have mayhem.

brilyntrip
Aug. 22, 2004, 09:04 PM
Ok so I am too lazy to read all 30 pages of this thread before I post but I did read 16 pages.Asd Robert Ridland said this morning Bettina Hoy made a mistake that any kid showing pony club learns .That lesson is that the start line is a the DMZ until you are given permission to start via a buzzer or bell.
You have all commented on it the fact that she wasn't eliminated but only given time penalties shows how kind FEI JUDGES are.I would say that if you polled 100 USEF Jumper Judges they would to a person say that elimination was the correct answer.FEI doesn't like to penalize people unless they are abusing their horses.
I do have to say that I agree with Robbie about x country.I am personally torn since I did spend quite abit of my early riding years eventing.I found the urns trite.... loved the boats but the rest was seemingly pretty easy no banks nothing really testing.The interesting part was that since the horses didn't have to exhaust themselves on xcountry they were almost unrideable during stadium.Again the start thing is simple she went through start line before buzzer by rights she should've been eliminated.
She had to know that she did it.Oh about looking at the clock to see if was going ?? The clock usually is not where you can see it as you start,you should be looking at the first jump shouldn't you ??Who actually begins their course with the following thought "Oh where is that pesky start clock I have to make sure it's working!"

aurum
Aug. 22, 2004, 11:43 PM
Well the newest news is that one eventing rider does not agree to give back his medal. He says that this is bringing the "Olympic soul" ad absurdum. That Bettina still had time before starting and that it was a mistake of the clock people and Bettina could not know that she had already rung up before as she cannot hear the buzzer. Now what? This seems to give an extremely horrible story...

Kareen
Aug. 23, 2004, 12:30 AM
I can understand Hinrich however I don't think he has much point to succeed. Whether it hurts the olympic spirit or not (it already has regardless of the decisions that have been made) - bottom line is Bettina shouldn't have circled but continued after crossing the line in the first place.

What would have happened if she had not circled we'll never know. It was touching to see Hinrich talk yesterday with the Olympic carta in his hands. It's all very sad and indeed leaves a sour taste everywhere. The previously family-like clima within the bushpeople (not talking GWB here) went down the drain entirely. The laughable conspiracy theories spread on eventingetc.com are so useless as a Kropf and I would indeed not be amazed if this meant the definite 'out' for eventing at the Olympics.

Hey I have a whole new conspiracy theory: It has been American reining people on the timer who intentionally turned the eventing into a mess so to get reining into the Olympics. It's disgusting how them Americans dominate Reining. They provide the horses, the equipment, they even invented it. I think the sport needs to be changed. It can't really be right if the Americans rule everything at it. Haha http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Give me a break. Only because one nation that is not called America is dominating a sport that doesn't hold anything against the sport. I could just as well whine about the Japan controlling sumo *sigh*

Weatherford
Aug. 23, 2004, 01:06 AM
Hmmm... you may be right about the reiners.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 23, 2004, 04:30 AM
I truly feel so bad for Bettina Hoy and the rest of the German Team. She rode very well, even under pressure, and her horse is just wonderful. If the mistake had been announced as she was leaving the arena, there would have been much less upsetment, and heartbreak for all. We all need to work to make sure that judges, scorers, and timers know their job, and know that the competitors lifelong dreams are counting on them doing their job correctly.

Ellie K
Aug. 23, 2004, 06:27 AM
Kareen, that was too funny!! I think the reiners could well be behind it all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I do think nationality was irrelevant here; if the situation had been reversed, the German team or any other team would have done the same (provided they could afford the legal bill).

I cringed when I read some of the comments attributed to people on our side and I hope they weren't widely circulated. And if the French did snub the Germans at the ceremony this is not right either. So it is too bad that these elements were introduced instead of people just sticking with the known facts. The whole thing just sucks.

But I think the FEI will be fundamentally changed by it, and for the better. The whole problem of people not knowing or understanding the rules combined with subjective interpretation and discretionary enforcement of them...this has been a problem for a long, long time. And now it has bitten the FEI in the ass on the Olympic stage.

Janet
Aug. 23, 2004, 06:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What matters is that the German team did not follow the procedure outlined in the general regulations, by going to the Appeal Committee instead of filing an objection with the GJ as per the rules.

Whether they did that because they didn't know the rule, or because they thought they could influence the appeal committee (whose president was also FEI vice president), I don't know and won't speculate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think that there can be much question that the Germans KNEW to procedures for "going to the ground jury" as they already did that (sucessfully) in Cross Country.

One of the reports on Ingrid Klimke's "incident" said that it was originally scored as a fall (by the jump judge), then changed to "not a fall" by the ground jury after the Germans requested a review of the penalty, because the fall was not the result of the jumping effort.

I don't know what the statistics are for the Olympics, or even for international competiions in general, but at the national level, going to the ground jury is FAR more common than filing a protest with the appeals committee.

I have been on the appeals committee for the CDCTA Spring and Fall HT every year for at least 10 years (and was the organizer for 5 years before that).

During the 15 years (30 events), there have been a total of TWO formal protests to the appeals committee (about 8 years apart). But there are at least 5, and probably more than 10, objections presented to the ground jury, at every event.

Most of them are resolved as soon as the GJ explains the relevant rule. But some of them are VERY prolonged "discussions".

aurum
Aug. 23, 2004, 10:07 AM
I just learned on the TV that the IOC decided that the German eventing team will be totally taken off the scoring from the Olympics and their participation will be null and void. That is very sad.

AllyCat
Aug. 23, 2004, 10:11 AM
What??? Why???!!! They still competed. They just made a few mistakes any of us would make. You weren't watching Faux News were you?

Did they give any reasons?

Janet
Aug. 23, 2004, 10:12 AM
Probably because of the person who refused to return the team medal.

arnika
Aug. 23, 2004, 10:14 AM
That is so strange! And a shame for the Germans on top of everything else. Even with the time penalties the team finished fourth which is nothing to sneer at. After all, that's where we were going to be and no one I know would have thought that horrendous.

Did the IOC give any reason for their decision? Surely there was some kind of explanation.

I just saw Janet's post. I'm sad for all the Germans.

Kareen
Aug. 23, 2004, 10:27 AM
It feels good to hear some sympathy. Let's sob a bit and then go back to looking forward into the future *sigh*.

mbp
Aug. 23, 2004, 10:42 AM
Well I am NOT sorry for those *%^&#@! reiners! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Janet
Aug. 23, 2004, 10:49 AM
Yes, I am sad for the whole thing. Sad that Bettina didn't realize where the start timers were. Even sader that the GJ didn't realize where the start tiers were. Sad that the whole thing had to go through an appeal process. Sad that people had to give back their medals, and saddest most that the actions of one team member, in refusing to return his medal, has hurt his whole team, and added a taint to all the teams and individuals, that finished behind them.

LLDM
Aug. 23, 2004, 11:15 AM
First - Are we sure? I just took a quick look and did not see anything about it.

Second - Is if final? On just a case of, "if you don't give back the medals, this is what will happen"?

Third - Is there any way it could be reconsidered?

Please, please, please don't let it end like this! It's been bad enough already. Can we come back together enough to salvage eventing's reputation in the Olympics?

The IOC has just released to the public the list of criteria it will use in the future to evaluate the inclusion/exclusion of sports. It is HERE (http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_813.pdf)

At first glance it looks pretty good for eventing, with a couple of kickers, but hopefully not killer criterium. Are you guys ready to fight to keep it in?

Is it just me? I am having a very hard time finding anything current on this whole mess. It worries me.

SCFarm

Judi
Aug. 23, 2004, 11:19 AM
This whole thing is sooo sad. I've just crossed over to eventing from the H/J side and one of the things I love about this sport is how encouraging and supportive eventers are as a class of people. Very different from the Hunter/Jumper world. That being said... One thing I LOVE about stadium jumping is that it's NOT judged... it just has set rules you follow.. You cross your timer.. you go clean... you have the best time clean.. you win... no questions asked.

Had my first combined test deby a week ago Sunday and the VERY FIRST thing my trainer discussed as we walked the stadium course was where to circle WITHOUT crossing the time barrier. Now this can be an awkward question with some courses... So she reiterated to me as RULE #1... Do not cross... or your time will start. I can't believe we are all discussing this simple concept as to whether Bettina should have been given a medal or not. The way I see it...

1. Bettina and her lovely horse were BRILLIANT in dressage and X-C.

2. She rode into her stadium round ready to win Gold....

3. She may or may not have heard the start buzzer.. BUT she circled (In a very large arena) through the start flags... which tells me she wasn't prepared enough coming into her stadium round or she wouldn't have even had to guess where she was going to circle.

4. The judges compounded her error by not starting the clock on her first pass through the flags.

5. Her error cost her and her team the medal...

6. Sad for her but a very good leason to all of us out here in eventing land...

LESSONS LEARNED

1. KNOW WHERE YOUR START FLAGS ARE... for goodness sakes.

2. KNOW WHEN YOUR TIME STARTS...

3. KNOW your circle and approach BEFORE you enter the ring.

It seems these are simple... simple leasons learned from this situation....

SHAME on the Olympic team for handing out those medals before this was decided...

SHAME on them for not being more decisive in there judgement of this situation....

SHAME on France for being rude to the Germans

SHAME on Germany for not accepting thier error gracefully.

Since I just moved to this new discipline that I LOVE so much I was looking forward to watching the Olympics to garner every bit of instruction and understanding of my sport out of it... Instead I've watched misbehavior on all sides...

ps. Whereas I understand our German posters upset feelings... I do believe that the people who are posting on this board protesting the previous decision were NOT doing so because we wanted a stinking BRONZE medal for it... No one wants a medal that way..... What we do want is to see our Sport ejudicated in a fair manner.

Anne FS
Aug. 23, 2004, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Judi:
4. The judges compounded her error by not starting the clock on her first pass through the flags.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's be accurate. I read the CAS verdict that someone kindly posted the link to. According to that, the computerized clock began the moment Bettina passed through the flags and continued throughout the entirety of her round. That's how they knew how many penalties to assess her.

That computerized clock starting at her first passing through the flags, plus the fact that she DID pass through twice, were never disputed by the Germans. Where they tried to appeal the GJ verdict was that the computerized clock should not count because the other timer was reset and THAT one should count. The CAS said no. The computerized clock started when she passed through the flags and that was that. CAS said that this incident was not a question of interpretation of the rules, but a question of fact, and the FACT is that unfortunately she clearly rode through, the clock began to run, and she pulled out and circled again and of course the clock continued to run. Case closed.

It happens. Remember the boxer a few years ago who missed it all because he showed up late and missed his scheduled start time? Or the Russian star gymnast Svetlana Khork-something-with-an-ovna who had won the LAST TWO GOLD MEDALS on uneven bars and then last night fell off on the move that a)she invented and b) is named for her and c) everyone else did great? Even the great ones can make little mistakes under this enormous pressure and that's why the olive wreath and the medal is such a tremendous achievement. You've got to keep it together mentally as well as physically to be an Olympic champion. It's hard, but like someone else brought up - there was the American shooter who shot at the wrong target by mistake on his very last shot. Up until that moment all he had to do was HIT the target ANYWHERE and he had the gold, that's how good he was. But he made a mistake on his very last shot and, game over....he finished way down the list. Sad, but it happens.

Also, had one of the USA or Brit or French riders done the Bettina thing, you BET Germany would've launched the same appeal to CAS - as they should have.

Janet
Aug. 23, 2004, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aurum:
I just learned on the TV that the IOC decided that the German eventing team will be totally taken off the scoring from the Olympics and their participation will be null and void. That is very sad. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is this info on line anywhere?

mbp
Aug. 23, 2004, 11:37 AM
I thought that we should add Leslie Law to those who feel sorry for Bettina

Law will say he's sorry when he sees Bettina (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/olympics2004/equestrian/story/0,14796,1288866,00.html)

The other reason I posted this link - an earlier article had Lucinda talking about the same thing occuring a few years back in France and the rider being penalized ---- it looks like maybe that rider was Law. If so - that shows the circles aren't all in the dressage ring!

BTW - as sorry as I feel for Bettina and the Korean gymnast, I felt sorriest this morning for the shooter. The guy who had the gold all wrapped up as long as he even hit the target ANYWHERE on his last shot. He then, somehow, managed to aim at the wrong target and lost his gold. I just felt my stomache knot up for him http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

tle
Aug. 23, 2004, 11:37 AM
Actually, Anne FS, it's Svetlana Khorkina and her fall was very sad... but you put the sentiments VERY well. Thank you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anne FS
Aug. 23, 2004, 11:45 AM
No 'ovna'? Thanks, tle. Gee, that name hardly seems long enough... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Anna Ivanovna Flyzik

Ellie K
Aug. 23, 2004, 12:05 PM
I don't think the CAS ruled on any of the details of what occurred in the ring as stated above. What they ruled on was that this was solely up to the Ground Jury to decide. They ruled that the FEI rules had not been adhered to by the appeals committee in reversing the ground jury's decision.

What was taken to CAS was that the FEI general regulations not only define the jurisdiction of the Appeals Committee, they also specifically prohibit appeals to the Appeals Committee on issues such as what occurred. The timing of a round is specifically mentioned in the FEI rules as something within the Ground Jury's SOLE jurisdiction. The FEI Appeals Committee clearly violated the FEI's general regulations by ruling on the matter; it is very clear in the rules that they had no right to do so. Consequently their decision was overturned.

The FEI had no case in defense of this. Their argument was that FRA/GBR/USA and ultimately CAS were interpreting the General Regulations differently. Since the FEI Secretary General, who represented the FEI in the legal proceeding, is not only an Official judge in Jumping but also an attorney and the head of the FEI's legal department, and was there on site readily available to advise anyone involved on interpretation of these rules, this argument is laughable. Basically the FEI's argument was that their highest level people don't even know their own rules. Absurd.

And if this is what had to happen for the FEI to learn that it cannot continue to conduct its business this way, especially not at the Olympic Games, then that is very unfortunate. And it is very unfortunate that Bettina had to be a pawn in teaching the FEI a lesson. But if she crossed the line without intending to start, the first error was in fact hers.

Erin
Aug. 23, 2004, 12:10 PM
The CAS did not "rule" on any of the facts, but did outline them pretty thoroughly in their report as background.

Here's another link to the report, in case anyone missed it a few pages ago (it's a PDF file):

http://www.tas-cas.org/en/pdf/hOY.PDF

LLDM
Aug. 23, 2004, 12:45 PM
If it is the case, as has been stated elsewhere, that the ground jury should have stopped the competition until Bettina's score was settled and final (on the field of play), then indeed the ground jury erred. I don't know.

But if that is the case, then I believe that the appeals committee may have felt that they were then in the position of salvaging the situation and went into the "don't penalize the athlete" and damage control mode. Obviously, that didn't work either.

I took of FEI's statement as a simple explaination of "how we ended up here", not as a "we think CAS was wrong" statement.

It is so unfortunate that this continues to come apart. I am dismayed at the finger pointing and accusations. Yes, mistakes were made. More than one. But I will continue to believe that everyone directly involved has at least been trying to do what is right and fair.

I am increasingly frustrated and dismayed by the quotes attributed to our (USA's) most influential (and sometimes official) representatives. If true, and left unamended, they are causing irreversable damage to eventing.

The fruitbats are flying high and wide these days.

SCFarm

Janet
Aug. 23, 2004, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If it is the case, as has been stated elsewhere, that the ground jury should have stopped the competition until Bettina's score was settled and final (on the field of play), then indeed the ground jury erred. I don't know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Who said that? Where does it say that the GJ should "halt the competition"? Never heard of such a thing.

Astraled
Aug. 23, 2004, 12:55 PM
What quotes in particular, LLDM? I don't have cable, so if they're on TV I'm missing them.


FWIW, I think the CAS made the right call. Sucks for the German team, though http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif.

LLDM
Aug. 23, 2004, 01:11 PM
Janet and Astraled - I read this on eventingetc.com. It is in the form of an official news release from the USEF from David O'Conner and John Long. I have NOT been able to find it on the USEF.org site, so I am uncertain it is official and/or final. If you read it in it's entirety, you will see why.

The following (partial) quote from it is attributed to David:

"CAS decided in the favor that the Ground Jury had the right on the Appeal…that the Ground Jury makes the call on the field of play. Those things should not be overturned by a separate entity. Basically, the mistake…that happened was that right when Bettina was done, the competition basically should have stopped at that point, and not have the next rider come in and continue. The competition should have been stopped, in order to fix it right there."

Here's the link to the whole thing:

http://www.eventingetc.com/2004/july_sept/reports/report_eventing_aug%20_22.htm

Considering some of the other things I've read on this site, I can only hope that they are not all completely, um, acurate. The "letters" are pretty scary. So I am not comfortable with this site as a "reliable" source.

Read it for yourself and decide.

SCFarm

Portia
Aug. 23, 2004, 01:15 PM
I suspect that the report on the "Germans being taken out of the results" was a misunderstanding, along the same lines as those reports treating the SJ phase of eventing as though it was a separate discipline. What the report probably meant is that the Germans were excluded (by their revised score) from the medals.

There is absolutely no reason for the German team or individual participation to be excluded from the Eventing results. No one was disqualified. They simply had extra penalties which moved them down the standings out of the medals.

I took 4 glorious days completely off from anything resembling my job, including looking at the computer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, and I haven't gone back to read the last 20-odd pages that accumulated in the meantime. Janet or someone else has probably already explained the basis of the CAS decision, so forgive me if this is a repeat. But it's important to note that the CAS decision was based on a lack of jurisdiction, and it really was not a very close question.

The Ground Jury has the jurisdiction to determine matters of fact as they affect the competition. The FEI Appeals Jury has the jurisdiction to review decisions concerning the application or interpretation of the rules. (This is similar to our court system, where trial courts have jurisdiction to determine facts and generally courts of appeal can review those decisions only with respect to questions of law or abuses of discretion.)

Whether or not she crossed the start line twice after the signal was a question of fact, and it was undisputed. There was no question of the interpretation of the FEI Rules, since they are clear: if you cross the start line after the signal, your round starts.

The Appeals Jury did not find there was a rules interpretation issue, instead finding as a matter of fact that even though she crossed the start line twice, she should not be charged with the penalties because of the timer error and because it would therefore be "unfair" to hold her responsible.

The CAS found that the Appeals Jury's action was an impermissible infringement of the Ground Jury's exclusive jurisdiction to determine matters of fact regarding the competition on the ground, therefore the Appeals Jury decision was invalid. The original decision of the Ground Jury stands.

Regarding whether the French, British, and US were whining and should have accepted the results, remember that it was the Ground Jury who relatively quickly determined that the penalties should be imposed. It was the Germans who then protested that decision to the Appeals Jury to have the Ground Jury's decision overturned. The affected teams then (in effect) appealed that decision to the CAS. All the parties then had the chance to present their cases to three neutral arbitrators(none of whom were from any of the affected countries), who made their determination upon the evidence and the applicable rules. It is very unfortunate situation, but that does not mean that the process was wrongly used.

Portia
Aug. 23, 2004, 01:17 PM
LLDM, that is official. The USEF sent it out in a press release by e-mail Sunday morning (unless somebody broke into their system and did something weird to phony up an e-mail to their mailing list, but I doubt it). Here's the whole thing:

USEF President David O’Connor and CEO John Long, Explain USEF Position on CAS Decision in a Press Conference This Morning

For Immediate Release August 22, 2004

Athens, Greece – This morning David O’Connor, President of the USEF and John Long, Chief Executive Officer, further explained the situation in Wednesday evening’s incident involving Bettina Hoy in the stadium jumping phase of the Eventing competition, and the resulting decision from the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

O’Connor: "USEF President David O’Connor and CEO John Long, Explain USEF Position on CAS Decision in a Press Conference This Morning

For Immediate Release August 22, 2004

Athens, Greece – This morning David O’Connor, President of the USEF and John Long, Chief Executive Officer, further explained the situation in Wednesday evening’s incident involving Bettina Hoy in the stadium jumping phase of the Eventing competition, and the resulting decision from the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

O’Connor: Obviously, from a sport point of view I think we all, from the United States, Great Britain, France, we are pleased with the outcome of this situation. And, from our point of view, it is a very unfortunate situation to be in – period – for the sport. Our heart goes out to Bettina [Hoy] and the German Team for having a medal taken away in a situation like this. But really, from a sport’s point of view, we didn’t really have a choice – in the fact that to uphold the rules and uphold the integrity of our sport, the process had to happen. And I believe that if the positions had been reversed that any country, or any other people, this due process would have happened. So, it is not a country’s problem, it is a sport’s problem. And it was very, very unfortunate. Our hearts go out to her. But upholding the rules and upholding the integrity of our sport has to be the number one priority for any of us. And we believed that this decision backed that up and it was the right, and needed, thing to happen.

…In the rules, the Jury of Appeals has the right to overturn a decision that has the possibility of an interpretation of the rules. The situation was not an interpretation of a rule. It was very, very clear that a black-and-white mistake of going to the start line twice. So, there was no interpretation of what could have happened or might have happened. The fact was, and nobody disputed the fact that there was a crossing of the line twice.

…I believe that she [Bettina Hoy] didn’t realize that she crossed the line the first time. The fact is that after the bell, a starting of the time by crossing the line, you are allowed to do that once without crossing the tracks which would then cause a stop for, or having any other change in the time.

CAS decided in the favor that the Ground Jury had the right on the Appeal…that the Ground Jury makes the call on the field of play. Those things should not be overturned by a separate entity. Basically, the mistake…that happened was that right when Bettina was done, the competition basically should have stopped at that point, and not have the next rider come in and continue. The competition should have been stopped, in order to fix it right there.

There is no question that we would have loved for this not to happen. Obviously, you would have loved for Bettina not to have made that mistake, and for the judges not have made their mistake. But, again, if you allow this…because there was a mistake…if it were allowed to continue on, the interpretation of the rules in the future are completely in jeopardy. If somebody makes this mistake in the future, the interpretation of that rule suddenly becomes very questionable, because in the end,…if you allow this to happen you can “blow the whistle” and somebody could circle and circle and circle, for 45 seconds, before the first jump.

The fact is that you are only allowed to go across the starting line once.

The FEI has to look into the Jury of Appeal process and how it needs to keep its independence in future athlete problems. The FEI is supposed to create a level playing field. That is there [sic] number one job. They need to look into their independence."


[B]John Long: This situation would not have occurred if this incident would have been dealt with immediately on the field of play. We wouldn’t be having this press conference and we wouldn’t be discussing the loss of a medal for a terrific rider. And, it is bittersweet for us to be able to take these medals that should have been taken care of on the field of play.

The FEI has issued a press release…which essentially, in my view, disagrees with the decision of CAS. I think the press release is arrogant and I think it is completely inappropriate.

If you read the release, the FEI accepts the verdict but the goes on to say that it disagrees – that it has a different interpretation. I think it is incredibly unfortunate that they would say that. In fact, I would go so far as to say it’s insulting to all of the countries involved."

END

LLDM
Aug. 23, 2004, 01:34 PM
Thanks Portia! Now I can officially say that I think John Long's comments are more hurtful than productive. As I said above, I took the FEI's statement as a comment on "how we got here" not as "we think CAS was wrong." But hey, I'm certainly not anybody who matters.

But calling them (the FEI) "arrogant" and "completely inappropriate" is NOT helpful, diplomatic, or in any way healing the damage this whole mess has caused. Just the opposite, IMHO.

But, as usual, David is the dipolmat. Thank God for him.

Janet, I don't know if David was refering to the "mistake" as something that the ground jury did wrong and/or against the existing rules OR whether he was simply saying that this would have prevented this whole mess and is how these things should be handled in the future (to avoid this again). So, Ms. Rules Finder (I say this with the utmost reverence) do you know which it is?

Thanks,

SCFarm

JustJump
Aug. 23, 2004, 01:38 PM
I took the meaning of DO'C's statement to mean that if the Germans OR the GJ had a problem with what was going on, either should have requested a suspension of the competition and that it would have been better to clarify the issue then and there rather than to drag matters out as they have been.

It is interesting to note that there were a number of other riders who managed to complete their circles and negotiate the course without incurring similar penalties.

Ellie K
Aug. 23, 2004, 01:47 PM
I have been wondering where is Portia!!
Thanks Portia for your valuable perspective.

I don't have a problem with the FEI's PR statement, it's exactly what I would have expected them, or any other org. in that situation to say. They're not going to admit they F-ed up and USEF wouldn't have admitted to it either. I don't think it was an inappropriate statement but that doesn't mean it isn't clearly BS! The rules in question are very clear. And they are important rules essential to the basic conduct of the sport across all disciplines.

I am very happy to accept that there was no German conspiracy and the appeals committee WAS acting in the interest of fair play and the best interest of the sport, and that the athlete shouldn't be penalized if competition management made an error and all of that. But this was solely the decision of the GJ to make. If they had consulted informally with people on the appeals committee or anyone else, in reconsidering the penalties assessed, and they ultimately ruled in favor of Bettina, I would be totally OK with that. I don't care who wins. But the FEI didn't follow their own rules, and that has to stop.

That said I AM now shocked at the public comments from our NF just posted by Portia. OUCH. These are things that don't need to be said "officially." There are other ways to make good things come of this. But the NFs, as voting members of the FEI, have to step up and do it, and hold the FEI accountable in a constructive and ongoing way. There is really an opportunity here to change things for the better. But it will take WORK.

Janet
Aug. 23, 2004, 02:02 PM
No, I don't understand what D O'C was trying to say. WHEN does he think they should have stopped.

Betina clearly didn't know where the start timers were, or she wouldn't have crossed them.

The judge (initially) clearly didn't know where the start timers were, or she would not have restarted whichever clock it is that she restarted (the display clock it now seems).

So she had no reason to stop the show at that pont. I expect she thought that the automatic timers had started unintentionally - perhaps because a bird flew through them, perhaps because a jump crew person walked though them- that DOES happen.

Some time later (15 minutes was what I heard, but that wasn't official) SOMEONE approached the ground jury to point out that there was a problem (I heard it was the French, but I don't know for sure, and it really doesn't matter). Should they have stopped it at that point? I don't see how that would have helped anything.

IF the approach to the ground jury was made BEFORE the results were announced, they SHOULD have postponed the announcement of the results until the conclusion of the ground jury deliberations. (Just as, at a horse race, they delay announcing the winner until the completion of an "inquiry" or "photo finish".)

MAYBE that is what D O'C meant, and in that case I would agree with him, but it certainly isn't what the words in the press release say.

But IF the approach to the ground jury was made AFETR the results were announced (and I haven't found anything that gives this chronology convincingly), even that would not have been an option.

Yes, someone on the GJ "made a mistake" in restarting the clock. But she/they didn't realize it was a mistake until later.

Janet
Aug. 23, 2004, 02:08 PM
Portia, This is what I said, back on pg 24.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gnep:
If she actualy made a mistake, than why are GB, US and France not questioning the mistake in their complaint.
Why are they questioning that the Jury had the right to change the result back.

Arnika I am male and I am German, event since 40 years, I have forgoten my dressage tests, forgot where the next jump in stadium was, had my DQs in X-C, made plenty of stupid mistakes.
I did my Klimke and my O'Conners
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the contrary, they are questioning whether the APPEALS COMMITTE had the right to overturn the GROUND JURY, when the ground jury amended the results.

As to why they are appealing the jurisdiction rather than the facts, or the correctness of the interpretation of the facts - probably becuase there is a tightly defined list of WHAT you can take to the CAS and what you can't. My guess is that "jurisdiction" is on that list, but "facts" or "interpretation" are not. Portia would probably know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LLDM
Aug. 23, 2004, 02:23 PM
Janet, Yep, I see the problem too.

I initially thought that David meant, stop the competition directly after Betinna's round - so they could sort through the timer problem and post her penalites right then. But that is assuming that they knew/noticed that the display clock and the official timers didn't match. Or someone realized initially that whatever clock was reset was reset in error. Which, hopefully, would have been right away (before/during/right after her round.

The "unfairness" to the rider was in believing that she had a clear round. I mean really, who expects points to be added to their score 20, 30 or more minutes after their round? How common is that in international competition? Who knows, but it definitely sucks out loud.

On the other hand, how would stopping Nicolas from riding (esp. as the last rider) until they got it together helped? If he had had to sit there and wait, it would have been unfair to him (and even more so) as his horse would have lost the opportunity to warm up properly, but not overly so.

Aaarggg! No good answers here!

Is there any chance we will get a full post-mortum? I really feel like we need to know how we got here. Not to lay blame or change things past, but to prevent a future repeat of this.

Ellie - I agree! Enough "blowing off steam" has been done. Now let's heal it and fix it.

SCFarm

mbp
Aug. 23, 2004, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is interesting to note that there were a number of other riders who managed to complete their circles and negotiate the course without incurring similar penalties. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

??? I don't follow that - are you saying that other riders circled through the starting flags twice and were not penalized, or that other riders managed to make their starts without going through the flags twice???

I think yes, in an ideal world where the GJ was on top of what was going on, they competition might have been briefly stopped right after the course completion, but even in that ideal world, at the Olympics I have to think they would want to watch video replays to be sure and it would not be very nice to the other riders to hold them all while the GJ decided what to do.

The official releases were a mistake. Long and O'Connor were perhaps well intended, but they need to realize that they are in the thick of the fray over there and official statements should get vetted by someone not on the emotional forefront.

We really need a good solid cease fire within our own USEF divisions before we start taking aim at outsiders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Janet
Aug. 23, 2004, 02:28 PM
AT USEA events, the results are not FINAL until 30 minutes after they are posted. This is to give time for enquiries and protests to be filed.

In fact, especially at the end of a LOONG day, the ribbons are often given out before that 30 minutes is up.

But more than once, a scoring error or other problem is found, and corrected, during the 30 minutes. When that happens, there is a mad dash to retrieve and redistribute the ribbons.

So yes, any eventer can EXPECT to have the score changed up to 30 minutes after they are posted.

Janet
Aug. 23, 2004, 02:40 PM
With 20/20 hindsight, the Pres of the GJ should have PAUSED immediately after Bettina's round and asked all the officials and backup timers: "Does anyone know why the official timers started early?"

MAYBE one of them noticed that Bettina had crossed the start line early. In that case, all (or at least most) of the fuss could have been avoided.

On the other hand, MAYBE she did ask them, and NOBODY had noticed it.

But at any rate, that is with 20/20 hindsight. I certainly know of know rule which requires them to conduct an immediate invesigation everytime something slightly unexpected happens.

Erin
Aug. 23, 2004, 03:27 PM
BTW, just to try to keep rumors under control... I've been looking around online all day and haven't seen anything about Germany being DQ'ed, so maybe that was just an error or misunderstanding of one reporter. The folks at COTH hadn't heard anything about it either... and the official results still list Germany as being 4th. So let's assume that's the case til there's some conclusive word otherwise. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Coreene
Aug. 23, 2004, 03:31 PM
I wonder how many Americans who thought Germany should have her gold taken away feel that Paul Hamm needs to step up to the plate and give back his all-around medal.

I, for one, think he should.

Portia
Aug. 23, 2004, 03:31 PM
I agree that the Sunday morning press release was overall not a good idea. Apparently they took excerpts of comments David and John made during a press conference, but didn't include the questions to which they were responding. Needless to say, knowing what the question was that provoked the comment could probably help us to understand it.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 23, 2004, 04:03 PM
Quoted from USA Today
"Yang should have been credited with a 10.0 start value, FIG's Philippe Silacci said. Instead, he was given a 9.9. His final score was 9.712 on the routine and 57.774 for the event. An extra 10th of a point would have put him at 9.812, or 57.874 overall, ahead of Hamm's 57.823 by 0.51.

Avery claims the Korean should have been deducted 0.2 points for four holds on the bar, which would have put him in third even with a 10.0 start value. "Judges are going to miss things," U.S. coach Miles Avery said. "Yeah, they made a bad call. He should have started with a 10.0." But, Avery added, the judges "made another mistake when they missed (Yang) having four holds" on the bar, which carries a 0.2-point deduction."

The article also stated that a Fencing scorer was dismissed for mistakes that may have cost China the Gold Medal

ANY one else thoroughly disgusted with the officials?

dogchushu
Aug. 23, 2004, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
I wonder how many Americans who thought Germany should have her gold taken away feel that Paul Hamm needs to step up to the plate and give back his all-around medal.

I, for one, think he should. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Coreene, I would like to see a second gold medal for the all around given to the Korean gymnast. That's only what I'd like to see. I can't comment on whether the official decision was right or wrong since I don't know the rules of gymnastics (I think parrelell bars are oxers that should be jumped--not flipped around on!).

However, I do not agree with asking the athlete to make the decision. That really places an unfair burden on an individual who's only job is to go there and do the best they can and obey the rules. Giving up a medal you don't think you earned is an incredibly classy move that I would applaud in any situation. But I think it's a bit much to ask someone to do.

Also, there's a difference in the two situations in that Paul Hamm did nothing wrong. He didn't break any rules. The other competitor was allegedly the victim of a poor decision by the judges assigning the start value of his routine--but it had nothing to do with Paul. In contrast, Bettina went through the starting flags twice. That was something she did.

Actually, I voted in the COTH poll to award two gold medals. But that was a vote from my heart based on the fact that it seemed cruel to take away a medal after so much time had passed. It didn't have anything to do with the actual rules of procedure. One reason I'd make a lousy lawyer and an even worse judge!

Jumphigh83
Aug. 23, 2004, 04:09 PM
BUT...Hamm didn't do anything but his routine..th OFFICIALS made the mistake in his case and the medal had already been awarded. He didn't jump on and off his apperatus a couple of times...Sad situation but the Koreans did NOT appeal in a timely manner. Once again, following the rule of the sport...not going against it.

Erin
Aug. 23, 2004, 04:31 PM
Right... it's the same situation. Following the strict letter of the rules, the other gymnast's score can't be corrected because too much time had passed. (Much like eventing's 30 minute rule.)

To be honest, the Hamm situation bothers me more than the eventing one, because it wasn't the athlete's mistake... well, except for not knowing how quickly he had to make his protest. Which you sorta figure was the job of the coach or chef d'equipe (or whatever the equivalent is in gymnastics), not the athlete. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

brilyntrip
Aug. 23, 2004, 04:40 PM
Do we actually believe that it was a conspiracy ?????????????PULEEEEZ .The poor woman made a mistake she was called on it that's it.Of course she is going to have to come up with a story in hopes that it will all go away.But it isn't going away... Hopefully she will recover the graces of her country she rides beautifully has a lovely horse cute talented hubby.Her life will go on.

arnika
Aug. 23, 2004, 05:49 PM
Coreene, knowing that the officials will not change the placings I agree with dual medals. Originally I thought Paul H. should give his up but as stated here he didn't break any rules himself.

Erin, I think aurum posted she saw/heard the report on German TV, not online. Here's hoping she just misheard.

Ellie K
Aug. 23, 2004, 05:52 PM
I haven't heard any talk of conspiracy for a number of pages here (except the reining joke). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I don't think it's that.

But the FEI's way is to have a deficient structure, or a deficient set of rules, that don't fit, or that people don't understand, or aren't aware of, or can't agree on the interpretation of, etc. etc. and then to wait for something to get screwed up or someone to complain, and then sort it out to the satisfaction of whoever is complaining, which may or may not take into consideration the others affected, or even the objective facts. It's this sort of 'people pleasing' way of accommodation, instead of just correcting the root of the problem, that causes things to end up being subjective and unfair in a situation like this.

Who gets accommodated? The person who has influence, or who happens to ask the right person at the right time. Often it doesn't matter what the rules are, you just have to have friends in the right places. The person who doesn't know that such accommodation is available, often because he is taking the rules for what they are--rules--is subsequently not accommodated. And this is just this 'old school' way of governance, with no accountability, that is antiquated and no longer appropriate. And they know it, but they won't change unless they are forced to. But year after year goes by, and no one demands change, everyone just keeps pointing the finger when things go wrong instead of actively working to effect change by working within the system.

The gymnastics situation I think is different in that yes, the judges screwed up. But the medal was awarded him by those who had the authority to award it, based on the FIG rules. The German team and Bettina were awarded medals by a body which had no authority to award them, based on the rules of the FEI. It's a big difference. I would be happy to see them correct the scoring, but they have to do it within the rules of their IF. Just as I would have been happy to see things work in Bettina's favor, if those who have the authority and knowledge to make such a ruling, chose to do so. They did not.

RacetrackReject
Aug. 23, 2004, 06:18 PM
I'm sort of confused about the Paul Hamm thing. Yes, I think the other guy should get a gold, period. Whether it is a second gold or whether Paul has to give his back, is hard to say. I orginally felt that Paul should give his back, and I'm still leaning that way, but you guys do make a good arguement that he did nothing wrong. It was an actual judging error out of his control.
Last night, in his interview I believe Paul said that while he was proud of his performance and he thinks he did everything right, he would abide by whatever the FIG (is that the correct acronym?) decided. He also said that he believed the Korean guy deserved a gold. I did actually see this interview, but I'm sure I've paraphrased some, or maybe didn't interpret what I heard as how he meant it. Anyway, that has restored my faith a bit.

LLDM
Aug. 23, 2004, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ellie K:

But the FEI's way is to have a deficient structure, or a deficient set of rules, that don't fit, or that people don't understand, or aren't aware of, or can't agree on the interpretation of, etc. etc. and then to wait for something to get screwed up or someone to complain, and then sort it out to the satisfaction of whoever is complaining, which may or may not take into consideration the others affected, or even the objective facts. It's this sort of 'people pleasing' way of accommodation, instead of just correcting the root of the problem, that causes things to end up being subjective and unfair in a situation like this.

Who gets accommodated? The person who has influence, or who happens to ask the right person at the right time. Often it doesn't matter what the rules are, you just have to have friends in the right places. The person who doesn't know that such accommodation is available, often because he is taking the rules for what they are--rules--is subsequently not accommodated. And this is just this 'old school' way of governance, with no accountability, that is antiquated and no longer appropriate. And they know it, but they won't change unless they are forced to. But year after year goes by, and no one demands change, everyone just keeps pointing the finger when things go wrong instead of actively working to effect change by working within the system.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, I admit I am not real up on FEI policies, proceedures or politics. But what you are describing fits just about every organization I do know, from locals to nationals.

I am by no means "anti-rule", but just like laws there is no way to have enough rules in place to cover ever single situation that comes up. That's what courts and appeals and escalation proceedures are for. Nor can there be a proceedure for every eventuality either. Sometimes folks are just forced to do the best thing they can come up with at the time.

Now maybe you have some inside knowledge of the FEI that gives you some insight into this particular situation. Or know things that I don't. But I am just not quite sure what you are basing your statements on.

I really am interested to know. as I am just now figuring out the relationships between the FEI, the IOC, the NOCs and the NGBs. Considering the recent history of our own NGB(s), I am not clear that we have a lot of room to be explaining proper governance to the FEI.

Just where do you think the FEI is falling short? And yes, this is a genuine question in search of a serious answer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

SCFarm

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 23, 2004, 07:50 PM
Regarding Paul Hamm--
I would not necessarily assume that had the Korean gymnast been given the correct starting score, he would have ended up with a higher score than he actually got. The judges might have just deducted more.

And, in fact, when they reviewed the tapes the Korean gymnast should have had a mandatory .2 deduction that the judges missed. Accordingly, if the judges were inclined to revisit the starting score issue, shouldn't they then also impose the .2 penalty?

VHC

Gnep
Aug. 23, 2004, 09:42 PM
Considering how scoring has been done in this Olympics and how many terrible mistakes have been done by officials, gymnatics for example, I would say that Germany should have kept its medals.
It does nor matter if there was a mistake by the athlet or the officials, the medals were awarded.
The gymnatst have shown us how one takes those decions with dignety. None of them or their teams did go to CAS. They were wronged and they took it, that is sportmans ship.

My top choise is the guy on the High Bars, he produced the most incredable performance and got nailed, bad. What did he do, once the result was final and he knew he could not win a medal, he stood up on the podium, thanked the spectatours for their support and asked them to quiet down for the next competitor.
That is sportmans ship.

aurum
Aug. 24, 2004, 12:34 AM
Gnep,

I agree with you and having heard an interview with Bettina I think more than ever that is a big mistake they make.

Bettina clearly said DIRECTLY AFTER in the interview, that she was ready to start, looked up to the clock and saw that it was NOT started so she started again and only then the clock was started. So it was not started before and she did in fact not make a mistake, the clock people did make it! So it is not fair to punish a team for the fault of the clock setting people! I wonder why they don't stand up for their mistake!

california rider
Aug. 24, 2004, 01:36 AM
clock people? Aurum?

Forget the clock people

The woman went through the start flags 2 TIMES
and any any other event the same thing would have happened. She made a mistake and she and her countries teammates must pay for that. It would be the same for the French or the Americans.

Robby Johnson
Aug. 24, 2004, 03:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gnep:
They were wronged and they took it, that is sportmans ship. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except Bettina made a technical mistake that should've been penalized under the rules of the sport.

That is cheating.

Robby

His Greyness
Aug. 24, 2004, 04:49 AM
Having been a stadium jumping timer at various events I very carefully reviewed the tape I made from the BBC coverage of the incident. The bell rang, Bettina rode through the start (two blue pyramids containing the electronic eye), circled and rode through the start again. So there is no doubt that she did this.

There is nothing in the rules that says the clock has to be displayed to the rider. She made a mistake. The "good old boys" of the FEI decided to bend the rules for Bettina.

The real problem is that at the end of long competitions officials get tired and don't pay quite as much attention at one might like. That's why events generally have multiple people covering one function. The error should have been called as it happened.

You wouldn't believe some of the conversations I have heard on the judges' stand during some competitions!

ESG
Aug. 24, 2004, 04:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Quoted from USA Today
"Yang should have been credited with a 10.0 start value, FIG's Philippe Silacci said. Instead, he was given a 9.9. His final score was 9.712 on the routine and 57.774 for the event. An extra 10th of a point would have put him at 9.812, or 57.874 overall, ahead of Hamm's 57.823 by 0.51.

Avery claims the Korean should have been deducted 0.2 points for four holds on the bar, which would have put him in third even with a 10.0 start value. "Judges are going to miss things," U.S. coach Miles Avery said. "Yeah, they made a bad call. He should have started with a 10.0." But, Avery added, the judges "made another mistake when they missed (Yang) having four holds" on the bar, which carries a 0.2-point deduction."

The article also stated that a Fencing scorer was dismissed for mistakes that may have cost China the Gold Medal

ANY one else thoroughly disgusted with the officials? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. And I'm even more disgusted with Celizig, who writes athletic commentary for MSNBC. He wants Paul to give back the gold to help further world peace and improve the relationship between South Korea and the United States, and basically, try to make the rest of the world love us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Yeah, like that will happen.

And FWIW, I don't think Paul should give back the medal. It wasn't his error - it was the judges. He had nothing to do with it. He went out and gave the performances of his life and made a comeback the like of which has never been seen in international gymnastics. And honestly, for the powers that be to have even made the report of the scoring error and suspension of the judges when it was already too late to do anything about it because none of the governing bodies involved are budging on their positions, I think was irresponsible and inflammatory. What possible purpose has been served?

The fruitbats are taking over. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

ESG
Aug. 24, 2004, 05:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gnep:
They were wronged and they took it, that is sportmans ship. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except Bettina made a technical mistake that should've been penalized under the rules of the sport.

That is cheating.

Robby <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

kt
Aug. 24, 2004, 05:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gnep:
They were wronged and they took it, that is sportmans ship. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except Bettina made a technical mistake that should've been penalized under the rules of the sport.

That is cheating.

Robby <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What Robby said.

What the clock was doing should have been no concern to Bettina. It is not her job to check if the clock is working. Her job is to wait for the bell, go through the start flags (once), jump the fences, and come through the finish flags. If the clock truly wasn't working, they could have figured out the time some other way. Not her concern. She made a very silly mistake, plain and simple.

mademoiselle
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:04 AM
Gnep and Aurum,
What would have happened if the screen with the timer was in her back when she crossed the line, would she have turned her head to be sure that it was working properly? Whatever is written on the screen is not of her business. If they want to display the Tetris game that one of the officials is playing with, they could and the competitors shouldn't say anything. This screen is there to help the spectators to follow the competition more easily, not anything official or for the riders.

As everybody else said, and said again, if there is something wrong with the arena (jump down, problem with the timer, dog in the middle of the way ...), you have to wait for the officials to ring you to stop your course.
I have never seen anywhere at anyshow the competitors stopping or trying to solve the problem themself.

I'm 50/50 on the Paul Hamm's situation, it's not as clear. Now if Paul Hamm had 'obviously' broken a rule and won the title liske this, there would be no doubt he should return the medal.

And when you read all the official reports, they all said that the clock started when Bettina crossed the line the 1st time and that they reset the clock the 2nd time.
So, her excuse is not even good.

LLDM
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:18 AM
CHEATING? I hardly think so. That is an amazingly judgemental statement. A mistake, confusion, maybe, maybe a space-out by a tired and stressed competitor under immense pressure. But cheating implies an intent to gain unfair advantage and I don't believe anyone who was there thinks that Bettina going through the starting flags twice was the plan. And it was hardly to her advantage any way you look at.

CAS has ruled and it is final. The integraty of the rules is intact. Yes, there are people still defending Bettina. But, IMHO, it is to explain what happened, not to change the results that can't be changed at this point. Are some of you worried that the medals will be changed around again?

The conversation has moved on to the bigger picture. Understanding and prevention. So the sport can be restored in public opinion and confidence restored to regular competitors.

And, please, let's not hold gymnastics up as any great model of judging or sportsmanship. It seems it has its own problems to work through.

SCFarm

kt
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:26 AM
Maybe "cheating" is a little strong, but I took the way Robby put it to mean "clearly wrong" or "breaking the rules" (as in when kids are playing a game and someone accidentally breaks the rules-- "he cheated!!").

There is no way I feel she did it on purpose to gain an advantage, but without a doubt she did break the rules.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:37 AM
Rules in a sport are there to keep the competition fair for all, and to prevent cheating. No one knows for sure what was in Bettina's head, but Bettina. The facts prove that she crossed the line twice. It "could" have been cheating.

Scenario: Rider prepares to start, hears the buzzer, canters across the start line, but as he/she does, feels that for some reason, the horse is not as attentive as they should be, and decides to circle again. That "would" be cheating if allowed to get away with it as it would give that competitor an advantage that none of the others got.

I am not saying that was Bettina's motive - she truly seems to not know she crossed the first time, but that is what could happen IF the rules are not followed. That WOULD be called cheating.

LLDM
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:56 AM
Fairview - I think we all understand that the rules are there to ensure a level playing field. Where in the rulebook does it say something, anything, is cheating?

Cheating is an inflamatory term. It is accusative. Haven't we had enough of that?

I am sure Bettina feels bad enough without people labeling her as a cheater.

She made an error. She was penalyzed. She wasn't the only one. I wish that it had been handled better, sooner, faster. But in the end it was handled. Considering the situation and the stakes, it is reasonable that everyone needed to take a good long look. And that it went to cooler heads.

Why are some of you so concerned with defending a ruling that has been played out? IMHO, it does no good, only harm. We've had enough of that, no?

It seems to me that the folks defending Bettina are simply defending her honor at this point. So let 'em. We would do the same. No one has been perfect in all this.

SCFarm

bambam
Aug. 24, 2004, 07:00 AM
I think the whole situation sucks and what makes it so bad is that the final decision was made after the medals were awarded. BUT, I also think that Bettina made an error and the final decision is the right one.
Those who keep saying that Bettina's error was caused by the timing error are disregarding several things. First, Bettina said in her press conference that she did not know she went through the start flags. So the idea that she went through, saw the time had not started and did another circle does not add up. (even if you disregard the fact that she has made conflicting factual statements about what occurred and why it was not her fault). Second, the statement from the officials (I think the IOC statement that day) said that the clock did in fact start when she went through flags the first time, but was incorrectly restarted when she went through the second time (and that the official clock simply kept running and had the correct time). So again, it does not add up that she made a decision to circle based on what the clock said, which is the only way I can think the timing error would have affected her ride (and if the timing error did not affect her decision to circle then there is no doubt she should have the 14 penalties). Those 2 things to me say she should have the penalties but there are also the things that are a little greyer like in the tape I saw, she was did not look like a rider heading to the first fence when she went through the flags the first time and when you compare her pace and focus to her second time through, on that first trip through she simply does not look like a rider who was heading towards a fence until she saw the clock was not set. There is also my question of whether there were 2 clocks visible to the riders because the official stadium scoreboard with all the information including time was directly behind her as she approached the start flags and first fence and I don't see how she could have seen it after she went through the flags and so unless there was another clock, I don't see how she could have made her decision to circle again based on the clock not restarting.
Sorry- I know we should give up on the facts debate on this, I just could not resist point this stuff out.
Bottom line- the whole thing is tarnished for everybody and leaves a bad taste in my mouth all around. I think almost everyone could have handled this better and I think the timming official who restarted the clock should never step foot on the grounds of an event again http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif (because if the 1 clock had not restarted, no one would challenge the awarding of penalites.)
Ok- got it off my chest.
FWIW- my opinion is not affected by the US medals in the least. I also think Paul Hamm should have to give up his medal (and get the 1 he would have) or they should award a second one (but I don't think it is fair to put the onus on him- it is the IOC or whoever makes those decisions who should do it). NO he did not do anything wrong, but the score was objectively (not subjectively) incorrect).

LLDM
Aug. 24, 2004, 07:01 AM
As a side note, the USEF has posted a very edited version of that news release on their website. Thank goodness someone edited it down.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

SCFarm

Erin
Aug. 24, 2004, 07:10 AM
Thank you, bambam.

Folks, I really DO feel bad for Bettina. It sucks to have your brilliant riding wiped out by a stupid mistake.

But, to be perfectly blunt, she is offering up flimsy excuses (which don't make sense and are apparently not borne out by the facts) and claiming to be the victim here, rather than stepping up and saying "Yeah, I screwed up." That REALLY bothers me.

Let's call a spade a spade here.

Duffy
Aug. 24, 2004, 07:11 AM
The judging last night was incredibly awful in the gymnastics, imo. But, Paul Hamm did win his gold outright in the all-around. Yes, they started with the wrong start value for the Korean, but as posted earlier, his score would have been even lower given the number of holds he had.

The case with Bettina is clear as well, imo. She went through the start flag twice after the buzzer sounded.

LLDM
Aug. 24, 2004, 07:14 AM
BamBam - I think most people who think that the timing error was a problem only think of it as something that compounded her error. And that this is what made it (initially) murky in any way.

If she didn't hear (or couldn't remember) the bell/buzzer and checked the clock to see, then it just plain sucked that the clock was wrong. I don't know what happened when. Yet we are all quite clear that she went through twice. Why only matters to the people that care about Bettina, not to the scores or the placings.

They take the "protect the athlete" aspect of the Olympics very seriously over there, and that is only right. But as it turns out, clock error or not, she was not allowed to rely on the display clock. We all get that too.

That isn't going to stop people from wondering what was up with the clock, the timers and the judging. Because maybe, if that gets figured out, we can prevent a repeat of this whole mess in the future.

SCFarm

LLDM
Aug. 24, 2004, 07:21 AM
Erin - What are you reading? Did Bettina make a statement? All I have seen are little snippets of quotes here and there.

Considering some of the other little snippets of quotes around that are, um, questionable as to their context and intent, I'd rather not judge anyone until they all tell their own stories in their own unedited words.

Obviously tensions are high and people are spouting off all sorts of things they might not normally say in public. (I can only hope!)

So if you see a statement from her, I would really appreciate a link to it.

SCFarm

california rider
Aug. 24, 2004, 07:23 AM
cheating may be a bit strong BUT WHAT WOULD you call it if you were the competitor and watched your go after you received your ribbon or gold medal and saw you crossed your tracks and THEN WANTED TO KEEP YOUR MEDAL OR RIBBON?

What is that called? GNEP that is bad sportsmanship. After watching her own video she should have offered the medal back as a gesture of good will and acknowledgment that she screwed up.

It starts young this ownership. we had a 9 year old pony clubber who won the BN and in the heat of the day after all division we were short on fence judges. As she was handed her blue ribbon the little girl broke into tears and admitted to circling in front of one fence. Which was 20 penalties of course. Nobody saw it but this ownership and acknowledgment "should" live in a person and not have to be forced out through the media and arbitration!

radar
Aug. 24, 2004, 07:33 AM
WOW... is this thread EVER "water under the bridge" at this point, folks!!! Don't you think?

Erin
Aug. 24, 2004, 08:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
Erin - What are you reading? Did Bettina make a statement? All I have seen are little snippets of quotes here and there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were quotes from her in a statement on the Athens 2004 website (http://www.athens2004.com/en/AdvancedSearch/newslist?item=cedf28899f27ef00VgnVCM4000002b130c0a ____) (I think the day of the round in question). She said "I had no idea that I had passed twice the starting line. I realised it only 15 minutes after my competition when the French protested".

Now, she says she crossed the line twice on purpose. Which makes NO sense, first of all, but also contradicts what she said at first.

Robby Johnson
Aug. 24, 2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
_CHEATING?_ I hardly think so. That is an amazingly judgemental statement. A mistake, confusion, maybe, maybe a space-out by a tired and stressed competitor under immense pressure. But cheating implies an intent to gain unfair advantage and I don't believe anyone who was there thinks that Bettina going through the starting flags twice was the plan. And it was hardly to her advantage any way you look at.

CAS has ruled and it is final. The integraty of the rules is intact. Yes, there are people still defending Bettina. But, IMHO, it is to explain what happened, not to change the results that can't be changed at this point. Are some of you worried that the medals will be changed around again?

The conversation has moved on to the bigger picture. Understanding and prevention. So the sport can be restored in public opinion and confidence restored to regular competitors.

And, please, let's not hold gymnastics up as any great model of judging or sportsmanship. It seems it has its own problems to work through.

SCFarm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I said, "that is cheating" in response to Gnep's "that is sportsmanship" theme, it was meant to imply that accepting a medal when you know you broke the rules is cheating.

Robby

Anne FS
Aug. 24, 2004, 09:56 AM
LLDM, you say "No one was perfect in all this." Excuse me? An egregious error was made, the other teams filed a complaint, it was dealt with. The teams who filed are not to be criticized for doing what ANY team would've/should've done.

And bambam, in no way are these medals tarnished. An error was made so that the correct winners did not get their medals. The error was fixed. The medals are not tarnished. As soon as the incident happened people noticed it.

Bettina changing her story is not pretty, but don't go blaming the others.

Janet
Aug. 24, 2004, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Maybe "cheating" is a little strong, but I took the way Robby put it to mean "clearly wrong" or "breaking the rules" (as in when kids are playing a game and someone accidentally breaks the rules-- "he cheated!!").
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In no way shape or form did she "cheat" or "break the rules". She simply made an error for which there is a clearly defined penalty.

Any more than Kim "broke the rules" by knocking down a rail.

It was just very unfortunate that the judge initially missed it. But she (the judge) corrected the score, and it should have been the end of the story.

bambam
Aug. 24, 2004, 10:54 AM
I am not saying they are tarnished because the French, Birtish and US did not earn their medals. Absolutely not. Nor do I personally think they are tarnished because the wrong decision was ultimately made, although obviously there is disagreement about that. I think the penalties should have been added to her score. I do think, however, that the way in which the final decision was reached does not reflect well on many involved and when it is involves returning medals days after the fact it is simply hard on all involved.
What I think tarnishes the outcome is that it, among other things, came amid accusations of a rider lying, accusations of teams being bad sports for appealing a decision, claims of nationality favoratism among officials, claims of rude/unsportsmanlike behavior by the intially non-medal winning teams, refusals to return the medals (don't know if that one is true- hope not), a lack of understanding of the rules by officals on the grounds and at FEI, and based on decisions made by the third set of officials to look at it days after the awards ceremony that requires the actual return of medals. IMHO- not the ideal circumstances
To me that does not reflect well on the sport and tarnishes the outcome (again NOT because I think the penalties should not have been awarded. It was messy, not handled well and possibly divisive.
(and to head off the comment before it comes- I am not saying any of the above-mentioned accusations of lying and unsportsmanlike behavior are true, although I have my opinion on that, but simply that the fact that they were made is the problem- again IMVHO)

kt
Aug. 24, 2004, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Maybe "cheating" is a little strong, but I took the way Robby put it to mean "clearly wrong" or "breaking the rules" (as in when kids are playing a game and someone accidentally breaks the rules-- "he cheated!!").
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In no way shape or form did she "cheat" or "break the rules". She simply made an error for which there is a clearly defined penalty.

Any more than Kim "broke the rules" by knocking down a rail.

It was just very unfortunate that the judge initially missed it. But she (the judge) corrected the score, and it should have been the end of the story. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Janet, I disagree, at least on the "breaking the rule" part of it. As I understand it, there is a technical rule regarding crossing the start line... she broke it.

LLDM
Aug. 24, 2004, 11:59 AM
BamBam - Thank you. This is what I meant by my comment that "no one was perfect".

I do wish everyone was being a bit more cheritable.

SCFarm

Janet
Aug. 24, 2004, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Janet, I disagree, at least on the "breaking the rule" part of it. As I understand it, there is a technical rule regarding crossing the start line... she broke it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Which rule is that? I couldn't find one.

It says that time starts when you cross the start line after the signal to start.

A case certainly can be made that she should have earned an ADDITIONAL 4 penalties for a circle.

But that would just be additional penalties, (just like haveing a refusal on course) not "breaking" a "though shalt not" rule.

kt
Aug. 24, 2004, 12:43 PM
Janet-- You are right (I could find no "thou shall not" rule), this was my misunderstanding... I guess what I am trying to say is that she had already crossed the start line, so the time should have started at that point. The rules of the game are such that when you cross the start line once, plain and simple, your time on course begins. Although she wasn't "cheating" at all, she did in fact acquire those penalties, fair and square, just as Kim acquired her points from her rails fair and square.

What I have a problem with is Bettina's (and others') belief that she should not have those penalties added to her score... that is what I find "wrong."

bambam
Aug. 24, 2004, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
BamBam - Thank you. This is what I meant by my comment that "no one was perfect".

I do wish everyone was being a bit more cheritable.

SCFarm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am not being charitable- I am condemning everyone http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

LLDM
Aug. 24, 2004, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bambam:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
BamBam - Thank you. This is what I meant by my comment that "no one was perfect".

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">The above was to you.</span>

I do wish everyone was being a bit more cheritable.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">This was a general statement - and goes way beyond this thread.</span>

SCFarm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am not being charitable- I am condemning everyone http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">I'm condemning everyone too, it's just that I think that everyone was at least </span>trying <span class="ev_code_BLUE">to do the right thing. And for pretty much the right reasons.</span> http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Erin - I have yet to see where Bettina said she crossed the start line on purpose. I saw where she said she hadn't realized she had crossed the line twice until 15 min. after her round. I have also seen (I think in the CAS ruling) that she saw that she still had 35 sec and decided to circle again. These statements are not contradictory, nor are the questions she was responding to published. How can you comdemn her, or even cast doubt on her, if this is all we have to go on?

Should I also believe the nasty remarks ascribed to GM, McLain and Tryon?

You all can jump to all the conclusions you want. I'm waiting for things to settle down before I start making judgements about people I don't know, but have always respected.

SCFarm

Erin
Aug. 24, 2004, 01:39 PM
Erm, yeah, I would believe the nasty remarks credited to GM and McLain... Sara Cavanaugh is well known as a reporter. Those people wouldn't have said anything around her they didn't want quoted.

Amy Tryon, to my recollection, only questioned why Ingrid Klimke hadn't been yellow-carded for irresponsible riding, as she seemed to be going VERY fast (trying to make up time after her fall), and apparently other riders have been yellow-carded for this before. I don't really consider that "nasty."

And from the Chronicle's "breaking news" item:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hoy crossed the starting line twice, but she maintains that she circled after starting because she noticed that the clock hadn’t started. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Her story has changed several times.

LLDM
Aug. 24, 2004, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Erm, yeah, I would believe the nasty remarks credited to GM and McLain... Sara Cavanaugh is well known as a reporter. Those people wouldn't have said anything around her they didn't want quoted.

Amy Tryon, to my recollection, only questioned why Ingrid Klimke hadn't been yellow-carded for irresponsible riding, as she seemed to be going VERY fast (trying to make up time after her fall), and apparently other riders have been yellow-carded for this before. I don't really consider that "nasty."

And from the Chronicle's "breaking news" item:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hoy crossed the starting line twice, but she maintains that she circled after starting because she noticed that the clock hadn’t started. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Her story has changed several times. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That quote is two different things put together in one sentence. Hoy crossed the starting line twice. (a fact and why we now have medals) She maintains (a paraphrase, not a quote) that she circled after starting because she noticed the clock hadn't started. This says nothing about where she "thought" she circled in relation to the start flags at the time. Nor is it inconsistent with the other statements of hers I have seen.

If you all want to make her the bad guy, nothing I can say will stop you. I hope it makes you all feel better. But it ain't gonna bring back all that camaraderie eventing is supposed to be famous for. And the nastiness doesn't help either. No matter who it is from.

The one thing that being an American was always good for was that here you are "innocent until proven guilty". Do you all honestly think she is a poor sport or a liar? Based on this stuff?

Good grief, I'm done here. Believe whatever makes you feel better.

SCFarm

Ellie K
Aug. 24, 2004, 03:05 PM
Yikes, I was just going to post how nice it was that we were all expressing our well-reasoned views and bringing up valid points and no one was getting upset. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

radar, I hear you about the "water under the bridge" factor. Maybe Erin should stage an intervention for us addicts. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LLDM you bring up good points. I agree with you...I feel comfortable giving just about everyone the benefit of the doubt, i.e., no conspiracy, no favoritism towards one country, no dishonesty on Bettina's part, just someone being flustered and maybe you can't remember exactly what you did or why. I can see saying things that appeared contradictory in a crazy situation like that, without any intent. Also take into consideration that there was a lot at stake not only for her, and how do we know that she wasn't told what to say, once it became such a big crisis.

And if we expected her to just step aside, because she knows she made an error and should have been penalized, then do we expect everyone who got a score they don't think they deserved to give back their award? It's sort of fundamental to sport. Sometimes you get a break, even if you weren't the best. The judge was looking down at just the right moment. Sometimes you get nailed and someone else gets away with a major error and they win. I've earned ribbons I feel I didn't deserve. I've also lost some I thought I did deserve. The point is that the person who wins is the person the Ground Jury (not the appeals committee, as we've all learned http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) designates as the winner. Even if their dressage score really wasn't accurate, even if we don't agree with the penalties assessed, whatever. I don't think she had any obligation but to accept the decision of whatever body appeared to have jurisdiction at any given moment. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif And I can forgive her being angry and expressing it too.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 24, 2004, 04:20 PM
I believe the latest round of upsetment here is really a knee jerk reaction to Americans being told that WE were showing poor sportmanship, and that the mistake was with the timers, NOT Betina, and that Germany should have kept the medals.