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View Full Version : MEDAL POSITIONS CHANGED AGAIN _ GERMANS BACK ON TOP???? USA may now protest (just on



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Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
If she was circling thru the flags before the bizzer, wouldn't she actually be considered to be starting before the buzzer? So if the buzzer sounded then, wouldn't it actually have saved her butt by only giving her time penalties, or a possible refusal for crossing, instead of elimination for starting the course (start line) before the signal to go? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Darlyn,

I am having difficulty downloading the 2004 FEI eventing rules, but I have the 2003 (updated June2003) FEI eventing rules on my computer.

While there is a rule that says:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 537.6
...The competitor must not start before the signal has been given. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you get down to "reasons for elimination" it say <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 540.3.2.2 Starting before the signal is given and jumping the first obstacle of the course. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> SO, unless the FEI rules have changed for 2004, it is OK to cross the start line BEFORE the start signal, at an FEI event.

Miss Maddie
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:49 AM
Doesn't this quote from Bettina, from the official website, basically negate her other story about thinking the clock hadn't started so it was OK to circle?

On the additional time penalties that the Ground Jury added to her score, and later were removed by decision of the Appeal Committee

"I had no idea that I had passed twice the starting line. I realised it only 15 minutes after my competition when the French protested".

Glimmerglass
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xctrygirl:
.. you hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction and venue of courts in Hennepin County and Ramsey County, Minnesota, U.S.A., regarding any and all disputes relating to these Terms of Use ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is Dick Ebersol's brother the Circuit Judge there or something? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Sure sounds like NBC has found the most fertile of land there in east of nowhere.

bambam
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:52 AM
If she actually made both those statements and there is no translation/language issue- she now has zero credibility - I do not see how those 2 statements are reconcilable
If she made both those statements, it looks to me like she is just scrambling to explain away a flat error http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:52 AM
OK.....in John S's commentary, he mentions it was a head's up move on Bettina's part to notice the clock hadn't started and circle because no one was keeping time on the field.

What?

Why?

At every jumper show I've seen and competed in, there was always an offical at the timers with a stopwatch, just in case of equipment malfunction. They don't have this simple back up plan at the Olympics??

linquest
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:53 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Erin:
Regarding the "lawsuit" Go-Go posted about from the USEA statement... I think that's just the next level of an appeal. There's a protocol set in place for this with arbitrators who are there for the duration of the Olympics, just in case something like this happens. I don't think it's a lawsuit, per se, just sort of another level of the appeal. An arbitration is the _alternative_ to a lawsuit, I believe. [QUOTE]

That is correct...an arbitration is NOT a lawsuit but an "alternative dispute resolution" procedure. However, the award in arbitration is as legally binding as a court decision and generally cannot be appealed. It's supposed to be a faster, cheaper procedure than the legal system and is usually decided by an independent, non-government, subject-matter expert or panel.

Robby Johnson
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:58 AM
Bettina Hoy speaks fluent English, as do most Germans. I doubt there's a language barrier here.

Robby

Miss Maddie
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:05 AM
Uh, yeah, and she's married to an Australian so I'm guessing her English is pretty good.

OK, I just saw the clip, is the starter that little blue cone thing?

Miss Maddie
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:09 AM
OK, if it was that blue thing there is no way her story jibes. It would have been really hard for her to go to the first jump from that position, not to mention that her actual approach she went all the way around a jump and had a totally different approach. It couldn't have been that she was heading towards the jump, realized the clock hadn't started, and circled.

Gimme a break!!!!

Magnolia
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:11 AM
Where is Judge Judy?
She'd yell at Bettina:
"You KNEW the timers had started, don't give me this BS about seeing clocks and timers. You KNEW the rules"

She'd yell at the officials:
"Don't tell me you don't have a back up timer. Every event has a back up timer - why wouldn't you!"

Go-Go
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Regarding the "lawsuit" Go-Go posted about from the USEA statement... I think that's just the next level of an appeal. There's a protocol set in place for this with arbitrators who are there for the duration of the Olympics, just in case something like this happens. I don't think it's a lawsuit, per se, just sort of another level of the appeal. An arbitration is the _alternative_ to a lawsuit, I believe.

Portia can probably explain better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drats, Erin. I was looking forward to General Johnny Cochrane riding in to save the day.

bambam
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:13 AM
Careful you don't trip when you backpedal that fast Bettina http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Sorry- that was catty but I still don't see how those 2 statements don't contradict each other
You are right Magnolia- she would not last 5 minutes with Judge Judy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Castlegate
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:20 AM
DUH! I am SO understanding challenged sometimes! I thought this whole thing happened at the start of CROSS COUNTRY...and I was NOT following you guys at all...

thanks Erin, I get it now that I have seen the clip....

Yep...she made the BIG boo-boo.....can't imagine how anyone can say it wasn't her fault....

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:23 AM
To whoever was asking about whether she should ALSO ave been penalized for a circel- under FEI rules there are penalties for circleing on cross country under certain circumstances, but NOT in show jumping.

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:24 AM
Seriously. Are there really no back up timers at the Olympics?

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:25 AM
I think the timer is NEAR that blue cone thing. You can see them better as she makes the actual approach to the fence, but it's hard to see during her circle. I think the timer is hidden somewhere in that tree.

Also, I *think* I hear the tone go off (signaling the fact that she has 45 seconds to start) in the background while they're showing the graphic on the screen with the placings and Robert is talking about the 7 or 8 strides to that in and out. Does anyone else hear that? I don't hear ANYTHING as she's circling through the timers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Ash
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:27 AM
I am so confused! Since my background is in hunters/jumpers and not eventing I am not sure what I am missing here...

It has always been my experience that when you enter the ring you stay away from the timers. (I have been eliminated for going through them before the buzzer but I DO understand that is not a rule that applies here)

What I am confused about is.... once in the ring the buzzer sounds and you have 45 seconds to get to the first jump. A few feet away from the first jump is the timer that you break that actually ends the timing of the 45 seconds. Are you saying she circled away from the first jump after she went through the timer that ends the 45 seconds?? (I can't see the clip!!!) Because in my experience that timer is fairly close to the jump and you would really have to make an effort to circle away from the jump at that point..??? (can't imagine anyone would be looking at the clock at that point either)

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:29 AM
Ash, it looks like the timers are about 6 strides or so from the first fence.

Ash
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:30 AM
Thanks BLBGP. Wish I could see the clip!

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:44 AM
OK, so if under FEI rules, she can do her circle thru the start flags, and IF the 45 second buzzer when off just before she actually crossed the line, that would have made her quickly look at the time to see if that had actually counted, and the course time had begun. Since it was still counting down (35 sec), she assumed that that crossing was not counted? If that is the case, I will totally reverse my opinion as the "bad timing of the buzzer" that should /did alert her that crossing would be starting was negated by the clock actually not starting. (Her checking to see because of the bad timing of the buzzer)

IF that is what happened, then she should keep her medal, and not be penalized because of the bad timeing of the buzzer, AND the timer not showing she was on course.

IF that is what happened, then the timer should definitely be chewed up and spit out.

arnika
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:44 AM
I watched her ride and taped it and looked at it again, several times. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I heard the timer go off before she was near it and just by watching her circle it is painfully obvious that she was just spacing it off. She was completely unconcerned about going through the flags twice.

I believe that her statement of going through the flags and seeing that she still had 35 seconds left so decided to circle again is the true one.

Janet I also think that whichever judge it is that RESET the time should lose his/her "O" license. Obviously that person does not have an adequate knowledge of the rules. I'm wondering if the giving-in to the German appeal was done in the hopes that it would keep that knowledge out of the public scrutiny. (They should have known better. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:54 AM
If the buzzer went off with enough time before crossing (a couple of strides?) that she would have had a few seconds to react and not cross the start line (if that was her casual warmup hacking line) OR cross and continue to the jump, then she clearly just made a mistake, and should be penalized.

When she crossed the first time, did she look like a rider that was riding her circle to start the course?, or a rider that was wandering around, waiting for permission to start.

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:58 AM
To me, she looked like she was circling with absolutely no intention of approaching the fence. It looked like a nice, leisurely warm-up circle. It also seemed that if she looked up and saw the timers actually HAD started, she wouldn't have been able to get to the first fence in any sort of decent fashion.

tractor queen
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:02 AM
I would have to read the rule book, but my memory says you can't go through the start flags at any point on your courtesy circle, before or after the buzzer, doesn't matter. However, that may be my own interpretation so that I am always safe.

I thought the whole reason for the start flag rule was so that you didn't trip the timer. If the timer starts when you cross the plane of the start flags, then it makes complete sense that they would make that rule. Otherwise, if someone crossed over 2 times before they "meant" to start you would have to reset the timer each time and try to get it done before they "really" started so their time would be accurate.

I think the clock watching excuse is not a valid one. You go when you are told to go and if they tell you to go and made a mistake it is their fault, if they tell you to go and you don't because you think they are mistaken (and they aren't) then it is your fault.

The rules are the rules! I also always thought you were eliminated - not just given time faults - for crossing thru the start flags, but again maybe my own interpretation so I always remember the rule!

tle
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
OK, so if under FEI rules, she can do her circle thru the start flags, and IF the 45 second buzzer when off just before she actually crossed the line, that would have made her quickly look at the time to see if that had actually counted, and the course time had begun. Since it was still counting down (35 sec), she assumed that that crossing was not counted? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You know what they say when people assume? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

First, if she saw she had 35 second left to cross the start line she should know that within that time you can only cross the start line once. It's a BASIC rule, for heaven's sake, that you learn at Novice -- bell sounds, 45 seconds to cross line and start. Not 45 seconds to putter around, cross the line and putter some more.

In addition, as I think I've stated before, it is NOT her job to watch the clock. Her job is to hear the start signal, cross the start line within the 45 seconds and jump the course... nothing more. No she did not present to the first fence the first time she crossed the line, but that has nothing to do with the penalty (except, imho, to add 4 jump faults for a technical refusal!).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I believe that her statement of going through the flags and seeing that she still had 35 seconds left so decided to circle again is the true one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If true, then she knowingly erred and it cost her and her teammates gold.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I would have to read the rule book, but my memory says you can't go through the start flags at any point on your courtesy circle, before or after the buzzer, doesn't matter. However, that may be my own interpretation so that I am always safe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Before the start signal, you can go anywhere as long as you aren't showing your horse a fence (including jumping it!). Once the signal is given you have 45 seconds to make your approach over the start line and to the first fence.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I also always thought you were eliminated - not just given time faults - for crossing thru the start flags, but again maybe my own interpretation so I always remember the rule! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
if you proceed to start on course (aka present to/jump the first fence) then yes (similar to entering the dressage ring before the start signal). Otherwise, you're just hosed on faults.

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:04 AM
The contradictory statements that concern me are between the judge and the rider.

According to the BBC link, the judge started the clock the first time whe crossed the start line, and then RESTARTED it when she crossed it the second time (BBADD JUDGE!!!)

In that case, if Bettina looked up after crossing it the first time (inadvertently) she would have seen 0 or 1 second, NOT the 35 seconds she claims she saw.

KellyS
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:27 AM
If I felt sympathy for Bettina when this happened, I certainly don't any more just due to her conflicting statements.

Statement One - she says she circled through the start twice because the first time she crossed the start, the timer didn't start counting up. However, (and I have not been able to watch the video so I'm going by what others have observed) it appears as if her first circle was a "casual" warm-up circle with no intention of going to the first fence.

Then, as Janet pointed out, if the timer did restart the clock when she crossed the start the second time, why does she say she saw 35 seconds left? Her statement doesn't match up with how she rode the circles or with the statement from the officials about the timing mistake.

Then there is Statement Two - she says she didn't know she crossed the start line twice which completely contradicts her earlier statement. Where's the fruitbat!

Renate
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:28 AM
Straight from Athen2004 website...

Eventing: Comments from the members of the Appeal Committee 19 Aug. 2004


ATHENS, 18 August - Comments from members of the Appeal Committee regarding the appeal presented by the German Team against the decision of the Ground Jury to give Bettina HOY (GER) 14 time penalties.

Freddy SERPIERI (GRE) - President of the Appeal Committee

On how they proceeded when the German Team appeal was presented:

"The Appeal Committee started by considering whether we had the jurisdiction to deal with the case presented. The Committee agreed that the case came under article 163.6 as an interpretation of the rules and so agreed to proceed with the hearing."

"Following further investigation of the situation, that took over an hour, the Committee concluded that the countdown of the clock had been restarted resulting in a clear injustice to the rider concerned. The Committee therefore removed the time penalties."

On whether the decision would have a bad impact on the image of the sport:

"I believe that the Appeal Committee's decision was driven by fair play and therefore it was taken primarily for the benefit of the sport."

Hugh THOMAS (GBR) - Member of the Appeal Committee

On why the Appeal Committee took the decision to accept the German's appeal:

"We looked into the situation and we all agreed that the incident was primarily caused by an error in the management of the competition. The clock should not have been restarted."

"When errors occur in the management of a competition it is right to make sure that the rider does not pay the consequences. Bettina HOY (GER) had every right to believe that the time started only when she crossed the start line the second time."

ONS lm/tb

Magnolia
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "We looked into the situation and we all agreed that the incident was primarily caused by an error in the management of the competition. The clock should not have been restarted." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh?
SO, the clock should have remained running when she crossed the first time. She should have had x number of time faults, but since they didn't have an accurate time on the extra circle, they can't give her accurate penalties. Which isn't fair to Bettina - what if she only took 10 seconds or 8 seconds for her circle? And what happened to 4 faults for circling in front of the jump? Did they not see that?

The bad image is not Bettina, the Germans, the French or anyone.... but the FEI rules of our sport, which apparently don't require a timed event to have back up timers in case a situation like this comes up. The fruitbats are flying.

Ja Da Dee
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bettina HOY (GER) had every right to believe that the time started only when she crossed the start line the second time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the part that cracks me up. And why wouldn't she believe that the clock started the first time she went through the flags? That is the rule afterall.

LLDM
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:53 AM
Well, all I can say is none of this is going to endear eventing to the IOC. A lot of people went to a lot of trouble to try and keep eventing in the Olympics and make the new format work.

Now no one's happy with the outcome. Fingers are pointing everywhere and sportsmanship seems like it is out the window.

I imagine the Chinese are cutting the budget of the eventing venue as we speak. Why try when it will be unappreciated? It's not like they care about equestrian events or will ever use the facilities again. They will put their 30 billion to better use elsewhere.

The cattiness isn't going to change their minds either.

SCFarm

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:53 AM
Magnolia, I am pretty sure that there are plenty of back-up timers for the actual ROUND. Quite frankly, I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly it is that the ground jury is saying happened... but it seems to be that somehow BETTINA was given false information, which somehow led her to go through the flags twice. (I don't get this.)

I haven't read anywhere that they're saying they can't penalize her because they can't accurately figure out what the penalties should be. That surely would not be difficult to figure out.

mademoiselle
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:00 AM
it is so, so wrong ... I don't get it.

Let say that Bettina has had a refusal on the XC and the fence judge didn't see it, but everybody else saw it on the giant screen/TV then they would not give her penalty point because the judge didn't do his job, even ifeverybody knows she made a mistake ...

Give me a break. I went to some big shows and if there is a mistake made by the judges/volonteers then they change the scores after the competition.

Her intention was to circle twice no matter what and the rule is that you can't cross the start line twice. Period.
If the judge is an idiot, it doesn't matter to me, she still made a mistake and she needs to be penalized for it.

Trust me, if the rider was Polish, they would take the gold away from him/her without a second thought (particulary if the silver medal is a german rider), but Germany is so strong within the FEI that they can 'play' with the rules.
Ludger Beerbaum was in the judges' office less than 5mn after they announced the new medal order.

I'm among this kids who made some mistakes and got disqualified for them (I forgot the bell boots on my horse for the dressage, cross the flags twice, and bunch of other things ...), I cried, I sucked it up and now I'm careful.

It's sad that it is happening at the Olympics, but in my opinion, Bettina is wrong.

She 'probably' knows that she screwed up and if I were her I would feel horrible to accept an Olympic gold medal (where fair play is supposed to be the motto) and even 2, in this conditions.
I know it's easy to say like this but I think I'm so darn honnest that I would give up my medals by myself knowing that I did something wrong.

And I don't know any rider that check the time remaining on the board when they are 6/7 strides away from their first 'olympic fence'. What if the board is in your back, do you turn your head to check that they started the clock ?

It makes me sad and I don't have a very high opinion of Bettina Hoy.

The icing on the cake, is when I read a press release where she is complaining that the French riders didn't want to congratulate her and that Leslie Law was cold and didn't say anything nice to her. Are you kidding me ? They are trying to say that everybody knows she made a mistake but because the judge screwed up too, she shouldn't be penalized and she expect everybody to tell her how wonderfull her success is ?

I don't care about which medals the French are getting, Silver is already wonderful, I'm just disapointed for the spirit of the sport.

Ja Da Dee
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Well, all I can say is none of this is going to endear eventing to the IOC. A lot of people went to a lot of trouble to try and keep eventing in the Olympics and make the new format work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see that this has anything to do with the new format or even Eventing being in the Olympics. It's about the rules. It's about how infractions to the rules are handled. I can't imagine that the IOC would dump Eventing just because someone followed procedure to argue that a rule was not followed.

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Her intention was to circle twice no matter what and the rule is that you can't cross the start line twice. Period.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is nothing in the FEI rules that says you can't cross the start line twice (I checked). BUT it DOES say that your time starts the first time you cross the start line after the 45 sec buzzer.

Magnolia
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:12 AM
This is the ONLY way I can see this being OK.

1. It is indeed OK to cross the timers twice, provided the 45 second signal has not yet occured.

2. Provided assumption 1 is true, the start signal went off as she was making her first pass through the timer - ie, as she broke that line, the signal went off to tell her she had 45 seconds.

3. Provided assumption 1 is true, and the start signal went off AFTER she crossed the line the first time.

If any of these are the case, give her the medal. I don't think an incorrect time on a board is any excuse. I think it is pretty clear that you hear that beep and you cross the timer, you are on course, regardless of what any timer/person or fruitbat says. Maybe she didn't hear the beep, but, IMO, unless you are deaf, you are indeed responsible for hearing that sound and if you screw up because you didn't hear it, it is your fault.

vineyridge
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:14 AM
Surely the timers are automatic? If not, why not?

Why not connect the timer that starts the round to the timer that ends the round, so the first one can't be "restarted" until the second one is tripped.

If something happens during a round, so the horse and rider don't finish, then an official can trip the end clock.

I, too, do not understand how the timer screwed up so royally that he/she actually reset the clock after the start timer had tripped.

Magnolia
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:14 AM
Thanks for clarification Janet.... now exactly where was she when the start buzzer sounded - was she before the start line, at the start line or beyond the start line?

NMS
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:15 AM
Is there anywhere on line to see the video?

mademoiselle
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Her intention was to circle twice no matter what and the rule is that you can't cross the start line twice. Period.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is nothing in the FEI rules that says you can't cross the start line twice (I checked). BUT it DOES say that your time starts the first time you cross the start line after the 45 sec buzzer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it's what I meant, she crossed the start line twice after the 45 sec. buzzer, therefore she should get some time penalties, period.

It doesn't matter if an idiot played with the timers or did whatever.

Between you and don't tell me that the arena is not big enough to find some room to do a circle without crossing the start line twice !

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
1. It is indeed OK to cross the timers twice, provided the 45 second signal has not yet occured. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, what I think Janet just said is that the rules state that your course starts the minute you pass through the timers. So I guess you COULD cross through them again, if you didn't cross your path or whatever, but it seems pretty cut-and-dried that when you cross through, your time starts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3. Provided assumption 1 is true, and the start signal went off AFTER she crossed the line the first time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it also against FEI rules to start before the signal has been given by the judge, like it is against USEF rules? If so, and that's the argument she's giving, shouldn't she be eliminated? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

(I have made more use of the http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif face in the last 24 hours than I think I have all year... )

mademoiselle
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:27 AM
The buzzer sounded before her first circle.

Event :
She arrives in the arena
Salutes the judges
goes around
Buzzers sounds
She circles once and crosses the start line
she circles again and starts the course
Judge resets the clock for her second time in front of the timers
She has a clear round
She is happy
German celebrate their gold
Officials realize their mistake and give her 12 or 14 penalty points
Germany protests and says it's not their fault if the judge pushed the button twice
Gold medal is handed back to Germany http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Doesn't make sense to me

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
1. It is indeed OK to cross the timers twice, provided the 45 second signal has not yet occured. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, what I think Janet just said is that the rules state that your course starts the minute you pass through the timers. So I guess you COULD cross through them again, if you didn't cross your path or whatever, but it seems pretty cut-and-dried that when you cross through, your time starts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3. Provided assumption 1 is true, and the start signal went off AFTER she crossed the line the first time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it also against FEI rules to start before the signal has been given by the judge, like it is against USEF rules? If so, and that's the argument she's giving, shouldn't she be eliminated? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

(I have made more use of the http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif face in the last 24 hours than I think I have all year... ) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, if the judge had not "reset" the timer, she would have got time penalties, but neither a refusal nor elimination for crossing it twice.

The FEI rules say you may not start the course before the signal.

But under "reasons for elimination" it says "starting the course AND jumping the first obstacle before the signal". It does not list any penalty for "starting the course but not jumping the first fence, before the signal. So my interpretation is that it is "OK" to cross the start line BEFORE the signal.

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:33 AM
What I still don't understand is why it even MATTERS if the judge pushed the button twice.

I can't see that it would be at all difficult to assess the time penalties accurately. Heck, they already did this... but then took the penalties back. No one seems to be arguing about the actual time penalties being accurate.

The argument seems to be that the judge restarting the clock somehow affected Bettina, which just plain DOES NOT make sense!!!

From the video, IMHO, it is obvious that she is not starting her course when she first circles through the timers. She is doing a warmup circle.

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
So my interpretation is that it is "OK" to cross the start line BEFORE the signal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"OK," but the clock would have started on her when she crossed the line the first time, right? So it's technically legal, but not a good game plan since you're just racking up time penalties, right?

inca
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:37 AM
The clock would have/should have started the first time she crossed the start flags IF the 45 second buzzer had already rung.

Won't it be nice when dressage starts tomorrow and hopefully we have something else to talk about! ;-)

Hopefully dressage will be free of controversy, but that might be too much to hope for since the judging is totally subjective!

mademoiselle
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:38 AM
yeah, I'm with you Erin.

The all appeal from the German doesn't say that Bettina didn't cross the line 2x after the buzzer, the all point is :

The guy reset the clock, it's a management mistake, our rider shouldn't pay for it.

But my point is that she made a mistake in the first place no matter what.

BTW, the time started when she crossed the line the first time and they reset it.

And I thought Germans were all about rules and respecting them ...

citygrrrrl
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:38 AM
IS there ANYWHERE online to see the video...?

what a mess http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Magnolia
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:38 AM
So, what this comes down to is Betinna made an error (failed to realize she crossed the timers - not a major error, but one that may put her in the position to get some time penalties). The timer (apparently the only person timing the event) made an error by failing to realize that Betinna had made an error and reset the timer for her. So we have 2 wrongs.

Guess two wrongs make a right!

And may I suggest they have 2 timers, preferably aware of the rules, in future competitions....

arnika
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:39 AM
Honestly it looked on my video that the timer went off, she was making a warmup circle, went through the flags without noting them and continued her circle and back through the flags again to start. If the judge realized she was continuing her warmup circle and RESTARTED the timer so she would only accrue time at the second pass then that is either complete stupidity or the dreaded "C" word(cheating). Since I can't imagine one of those judges blatantly breaking the rules in front of two other O judges it must have been a severe error in judgement(ie; read brain fart). I am just waiting to find out which judge it was. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I do feel sorry for Bettina somewhat as it was pretty plain that she just spaced out during the circles and she looked quite upset after her individual ride yesterday. However that doesn't entitle her to win after breaking a rule which should result in penalties. As well I am not impressed with her trying to make up a cover story for her mistake and agree with mademoiselle that the medal would have been yanked and those penalties assessed in a heartbeat if it had been the USA or a less influential country.

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:40 AM
If she indeed crossed the timers and circled, why wasn't she given a refusal for crossing her tracks in addition to the time penalties?

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
So my interpretation is that it is "OK" to cross the start line BEFORE the signal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"OK," but the clock would have started on her when she crossed the line the first time, right? So it's technically legal, but not a good game plan since you're just racking up time penalties, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep. Time starts when you (first) cross the start line after the signal.

EventerAJ
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:41 AM
Hey Erin I'll see your http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif and raise you a http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OK so the whole world is aware that Brettina MESSED UP and crossed the line twice. We are also aware that the timer person MESSED UP and missed it. So there is no concrete number that can be added to her score. But SOMETHING should happen! We've all done stupid things-- gotten eliminated, out of the ribbons, whatever... we cried, we got over it.

Don't go saying, "oh it's NOT Brettina's fault, the timer messed up!" Brettina messed up and she should accept her consequences (not an indiv. gold medal!).

Yeah it sucks but that's life.

sit up
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:44 AM
I'm still confused. I understand the whole timer thing but if the judge did in fact reset the clock and if there was no secondary timer on course, how did they figure out how many extra time penalties to add to her score?

Magnolia
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:45 AM
There must have been an extra timer somewhere, or even using video they could time/calculate it.

mademoiselle
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:47 AM
Sit up,

because unlike the local schooling show, there are a couple hundred of T.V networks and a couple of thousand people who are taking videos and that you just have to watch one of those to see what is going on http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:50 AM
I've asked a few times and no one has responded....presumably because we all don't know. But one last time - why do they not have a back up timer??

And also, if they decided to assess time penalties, why didn't they also give her a refusal for crossing her tracks?

arnika
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:52 AM
They had a video to work from and that allowed them to assess her time penalties initially. And yes, they would be accurate penalties.

The IOC statement was that the judge had actually timed her at 14 seconds before the reset and that looks about right on my video. I don't have a stopwatch handy so can't confirm. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bettina and the German team should have accepted the penalties as she made the error. And I say that after being happy for them at the time of the team rides. I thought the Germans did a great job and did not begrudge them the gold but since I believe in fair play I expect the end results to match the performances.

mademoiselle
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:55 AM
They probably have back up timers and that's probably how the officials realized their mistake.
The judge who resets the timers probably just resets the ones that are linked with the official board and the back-up ones are probably the ones which helped to calculate the 12 penalty points.

At least it's what I would think

can't re-
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:55 AM
IMO she heard the bell, went through the start line 10 seconds later and then went through them again.
I don't know ANYONE that would check the clock when starting the course. Who would stop their round if they noticed the clock wasn't functioning properly??? And at the Olympics? It seems obvious she didn't know she went through the timers the first time.
And if she crossed her path after crossing the timers, that would be scored as a refusal in jumper land, not sure about FEI Eventing.

I have a feeling she will keep her two gold medals though.

kt
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:56 AM
mademoiselle , thank you for your enlightening exact play-by-play of the sequence of events... I had been trying to figure it out in my head, and well, I wasn't too successful up until I read your post! If that is truly the way it happened (clearly having the buzzer ring before she hit the start line as opposed to as right when she was hitting the start line appear to be two very different things), then she absolutely is in the wrong.

I'm in agreement with those of you who see no connection between the timer malfunction and her screw-up... two completely different, unassociated occurences. Both unfortunate, but I have a hard time believing they were related in any way.

arnika
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:56 AM
I haven't seen anywhere that the IOC has said that they DON'T have a backup timer. And the crossing her path/circling before a jump/refusal penalties have never been explained either. Maybe they thought a few hundred thousand eventing enthusiasts would never notice? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh No Erin, now I'm using it!!!

Dressage62
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:59 AM
be sure to read www.eventingetc.com (http://www.eventingetc.com) George Morris says the Germans runs the equestrian events and the Olympics have been "ruined."

3dazey
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:59 AM
I hope it's okay to post this link from www.eventingetc.com (http://www.eventingetc.com). I think it's really helpful to understand what's going on (at least from one point of view!)

http://www.eventingetc.com/2004/july_sept/reports/report_sara_letter_4.htm

Backstage
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:00 PM
I think all of this supposition points to one thing:

We do not have all the facts.

We have videotape. We have conflicting statements. We have accusations. Hopefully, soon the matter will be resolved and all the facts will be presented. Then, we can second guess the decision, or argue the merits. But we don't seem to know what happened as of yet.

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:02 PM
Arnika - In John S's commentary, he commends her for noticing that the timers weren't working properly because there wasn't a back up.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=20608042754494&ShowArticle_ID=21908043196280

Here is the exerpt:

And what no one mentioned last night is that it was a pretty heads-up move on Hoy’s part to even notice that the clock hadn’t started in the eight or 10 strides between the start and the first fence. What would have happened if she’d jumped the first fence and continued on course, and then the jury had realized that the clock hadn’t started, since there was no one keeping time manually on the field?

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And also, if they decided to assess time penalties, why didn't they also give her a refusal for crossing her tracks? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is no penalty for "crossing your tracks" (or circling) in the FEI rules for eventing show jumping.

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:07 PM
Janet - thanks! I didn't know that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> They probably have back up timers and that's probably how the officials realized their mistake.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They "realized their mistake" because the French pointed it out to them.

tle
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:08 PM
Thanks for the link. I pretty much echoes everything I feel. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif (including the note about Klimke's time on XC)

Coreene
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:14 PM
Here's the latest from the Associated Press:

As dressage riders wait to start, eventers await appeal
By MARGARET FREEMAN, Associated Press Writer

August 19, 2004

ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- The horses were grinding their grain and team officials their teeth at the Olympic equestrian venue Thursday.

Riders and trainers waited for the next step in a rare drama for the polite sport after Germany's riders won the gold medal Wednesday in the three-day team event -- but not before losing it, and then winning it back, in a bizarre flurry of judging decisions and reversals.

France, Britain and the United States -- the three teams caught in the middle of the judges' indecision -- said they would appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport here to reverse the turnabout that briefly gave the U.S. team the bronze in the equestrian equivalent of the decathlon.

wanderlust
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:14 PM
No matter what the facts (although according to the IOC statement, the timers *were* working), re-starting if she thinks there is a technical problem is NOT Bettina's decision to make. I don't care what Strassberger says. If there was truly a problem with the timers, the ground jury/judges/timer would have noted it, re-sounded the buzzer to hold her, sorted out the problem, and re-sounded the buzzer to allow her to start again.

Bettina botched it, and shame on her for not fessing up. Poor, poor sportsmanship.

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:15 PM
Janet - the link posted by 3dazey claims she did get 4 faults for crossing her tracks, plus 14 time penalties for 18 total. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:16 PM
Bettina said: "The rules say I have 45 seconds to cross the start line after the bell rings. When I was close to the start line I saw 35 seconds left on the clock, so I decided to do another circle. After I had finished my round, I had a clear round inside the time."

Hugh Thomas said: "We looked into the situation and we all agreed that the incident was primarily caused by an error in the management of the competition. The clock should not have been restarted."

"When errors occur in the management of a competition it is right to make sure that the rider does not pay the consequences. Bettina HOY (GER) had every right to believe that the time started only when she crossed the start line the second time."

Can anyone explain to me how the clock being restarted affected when Bettina thought her time started??? She talks about the 35 seconds, but obviously THAT clock was not restarted. Or it would have said zero.

Here he is again... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

NMS
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:18 PM
For those that have the video...was it obvious she was going to the first fence and circled as GM stated, or did she really just do one more courtesy circle because she saw the timer? Can anyone see her looking at the timer?

Nanc

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dressage62:
be sure to read http://www.eventingetc.com George Morris says the Germans runs the equestrian events and the Olympics have been "ruined." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Unfortunately, Franks Chapot does NOT understand the difference between the FEI rule for Jumping and the FEI rules for the jumping phase of eventing.

poltroon
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
What I still don't understand is why it even MATTERS if the judge pushed the button twice.

I can't see that it would be at all difficult to assess the time penalties accurately. Heck, they already did this... but then took the penalties back. No one seems to be arguing about the actual time penalties being accurate.

The argument seems to be that the judge restarting the clock somehow affected Bettina, which just plain DOES NOT make sense!!!

From the video, IMHO, it is obvious that she is not starting her course when she first circles through the timers. She is doing a warmup circle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the argument is that if the timer situation had worked correctly, that she would've noticed her mistake sooner and possibly not had any, or as many time penalties. I certainly think there would've been an "OHHHHH" from the crowd, and she probably would've seen the time (those scoreboards are huge) at some point. So you can argue that if it had worked the way it was supposed to (and hopefully did for everyone else), her round would've been different. She would've hustled, she would've turned differently, etc.

Of course, "differently" is not necessarily better. She might have been flustered and hurried and had rails instead.

I don't think there is a right answer. The fact that she won an individual gold also is pretty ironic.

NMS
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:24 PM
Erin,

That statement from her tells it all. My interpetation is that she did not know she could not re-cross the line EVEN if she had time to do so. Someone ought to give her the FEI book, and she should fess up.

From that statement, I take it to conclude that she looked up, saw she had time, took another circle, and disregarded where she was on the course. Unfortunately that circle she chose to take re-crossed the start line.

Bring on the arbitration.

bambam
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:24 PM
I hope I am wrong. I hope that there is an explanation and we just have incorrect facts. Because right now based on what we "know" it looks like Bettina made a clear error, knew she made an error (after the fact I mean), the timer error had not affect on her making her mistake, and has come up with 2 versions of what happened in an attempt to keep her medals regardless and has the German team backing her up in this (I won't even go into the fact that Germans have been the head of every body to make to a decision in favor of the German team so far).
If this is the case then yesterday was a sad day for sportsmanship and I am very disheartened by it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
I hope I am wrong.

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:24 PM
Since I don't know where the timer is, I can't say. It would be much easier for someone who also saw the venue live to evaluate the video.

It does not look, to me, at ALL like she was approaching the fence and then circled away. Her eyes appear to be following the path of her circle. And you would think that the commentators would have noticed something like that. Surely it would be more obvious watching live.

But who am I to argue with George. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Weatherford
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:25 PM
I was watching it live - and my friend Ann taped it and has watched it over and over - and from the camera angle WE saw, she was fine...

I say, compromise and give two sets of Golds... It's happened before...

I really DO thing Ringwood Cockatoo IS the best Event horse in the world at this time - Bettina, unfortunately, is not a Mark Todd, Pippa Funnell, or David O'Connor when under competition pressure! I would LOVE to see that HORSE get the recognition it deserves - and her get the recognition for getting this wonderful horse to the top of the sport!

Go-Go
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Can anyone explain to me how the clock being restarted affected when Bettina thought her time started??? She talks about the 35 seconds, but obviously THAT clock was not restarted. Or it would have said zero.

Here he is again... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm confused, too. Either she saw the clock was going or she didn't - WTF - choose one option, Betty. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

ESG
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Bettina said: "The rules say I have 45 seconds to cross the start line after the bell rings. When I was close to the start line I saw 35 seconds left on the clock, so I decided to do another circle. After I had finished my round, I had a clear round inside the time."

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Okay, at this point, Bettina is saying that she knew she still had 35 seconds to start her course. Folks, I don't know about the rest of you, but 35 seconds is a damned long time to do one courtesy circle. Unless, of course, that circle encompasses most of the ring. She shouldn't have gone through the flags again - she had plenty of time to approach the first fence and jump it within that 35 second time frame. Sounds to me like she wigged a bit. Not saying any of us wouldn't do the same under that sort of pressure, but wig she did, and goofed, and now doesn't want to pay for it. </span>

Hugh Thomas said: "We looked into the situation and we all agreed that the incident was primarily caused by an error in the management of the competition. The clock should not have been restarted."

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Agreed. So why did they not go back to the original time penalties and knock Bettina down to the spot she earned, if they're acknowledging their mistake as well as hers?</span>

"When errors occur in the management of a competition it is right to make sure that the rider does not pay the consequences. Bettina HOY (GER) had every right to believe that the time started only when she crossed the start line the second time."

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Directly contradictory to Bettina's statement above. She knew damned good and well that she had 35 seconds left - so why circle? Doesn't make sense. </span>

Can anyone explain to me how the clock being restarted affected when Bettina thought her time started??? She talks about the 35 seconds, but obviously THAT clock was not restarted. Or it would have said zero.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Yup. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif</span>

Here he is again... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Raise you a http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif and add an http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif and an additional http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Let's all watch the judges make the Germans happy and totally blow their own credibility in the eyes of the rest of the world. Gonna make for a pi$$ing contest of epic proportions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </span>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">And to those who are unhappy about the new format, I say that anything new has bugs that need to be worked out. The situation with Bettina, however, would have happened the same way with the old format, since the error came in the showjumping phase, not the additional round for the individual medals. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif</span>

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
Janet - the link posted by 3dazey claims she did get 4 faults for crossing her tracks, plus 14 time penalties for 18 total. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But the Athens results site, before it was changed, showed time penalties, but no jump penalties. Somehow I think that is more relaible.

ESG
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bambam:
I hope I am wrong. I hope that there is an explanation and we just have incorrect facts. Because right now based on what we "know" it looks like Bettina made a clear error, knew she made an error (after the fact I mean), the timer error had not affect on her making her mistake, and has come up with 2 versions of what happened in an attempt to keep her medals regardless and has the German team backing her up in this (I won't even go into the fact that Germans have been the head of every body to make to a decision in favor of the German team so far).
If this is the case then yesterday was a sad day for sportsmanship and I am very disheartened by it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
I hope I am wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Ditto. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif</span>

oskaar
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>... the equestrian equivalent of the decathlon. __ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I have alwys heard it referred to as a TRIathalon, meaning three. The commentators also used this analogy last night during Phelps' IM race-- the IM is four people, a decathalon is ten.

I don't know if I can handle all the BS... it seems like every time the officials open their mouth they incriminate themselves more!

kt
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:29 PM
I also think that it did NOT look like she was headed toward the first fence the first time through the flags and then changed her mind. It was clearly a relaxed, slower warm-up circle that just happened to cross the path of the start line. There is no change of bend or rhythm in horse, it's one continuous, smooth circle. Once she heads towards the flags the second time, you can see her move up the pace and prepare for the first fence.

BB
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:30 PM
Grrrrrr...

I haven't seen the video so I have no idea how any of the incidents appeared, but if the judge did indeed make an error, it doesn't mean that everyone should overlook Hoy's mistake. I don't think it's fair to all of the other riders if the IOC admits that she should have been penalized but they don't penalize her because of a "managerial mistake." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

poltroon
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dressage62:
be sure to read http://www.eventingetc.com George Morris says the Germans runs the equestrian events and the Olympics have been "ruined." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Unfortunately, Franks Chapot does NOT understand the difference between the FEI rule for Jumping and the FEI rules for the jumping phase of eventing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I might add, HODV is not known for its nuanced, reliable, objective reporting. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Um. She's ranting that Bettina won because the footing was supplied by a German company? Aha. Now we know why Kim dropped those two rails and the French horse had 4 in the final round - that German footing did it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Oh. Can I just say the Poggio is the most amazing jumper I have ever seen? But I don't think you could pay me enough money to ride him. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Wow, what an athlete!

Smart Alec
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:32 PM
3dazey, that was an excellent link...very interesting to hear what those people (whose opinions in the world of eventing and showjumping are well regarded/respected)

[Edited to add...it wasn't very objective but still interesting nonetheless!]

Too bad Germany will go down as being compared to the Russian's during the ice skating competition of the winter games. Hopefully the fact that Germany received the gold regardless of the rules broken will not bring down the rest of our horse sports...what a shame. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Miss Maddie
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:33 PM
Since they actually timed her for 14 seconds after crossing the start line the first time, what I want to know is, what did the scoreboard really say for time?? It must have already been counting!

I guess the scoreboard is not visible from any of the videos??

Oh, and I also want to know who was that timer person!!

Schatten
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:34 PM
Is it just me, or did anyone else find the eventing etc article extremely inflammatory and abrasive? I know I feel that way, and I'm American, I can't imagine how I might feel I were German! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Smart Alec
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:35 PM
"Oh, and I also want to know who was that timer person!!"

I would imagine in hiding with that poor sap from the Cubs game that cost them the pennant! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

poltroon
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:38 PM
They calculated the time off the video.

I still can't understand how ANY official would restart the timing - unless he saw that the clock didn't start and thus assumed that she hadn't broken the electric eyes? I mean, being a jumper judge isn't all that hard... two very well defined things to count. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:

I think the argument is that if the timer situation had worked correctly, that she would've noticed her mistake sooner and possibly not had any, or as many time penalties. I certainly think there would've been an "OHHHHH" from the crowd, and she probably would've seen the time (those scoreboards are huge) at some point. So you can argue that if it had worked the way it was supposed to (and hopefully did for everyone else), her round would've been different. She would've hustled, she would've turned differently, etc.

Of course, "differently" is not necessarily better. She might have been flustered and hurried and had rails instead. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does anyone know if there are SEPARATE clocks for the 45 second countdown you have before you must go through the flags, and the actual time on course?

She says she looked at the clock and it said 35 seconds, so she thought she had time for another circle. Is THAT the clock that should have been restarted?

From other reports, it seems as though the timers did start the first time -- and thus her time should have been up on the big scoreboard, yes? -- but then RESTARTED when she went through the second time.

Why did no one notice the timers were running during those 14 seconds between her first and second circle?

Miss Maddie
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
Arnika - In John S's commentary, he commends her for noticing that the timers weren't working properly because there wasn't a back up.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=20608042754494&ShowArticle_ID=21908043196280

Here is the exerpt:

And what no one mentioned last night is that it was a pretty heads-up move on Hoy’s part to even notice that the clock hadn’t started in the eight or 10 strides between the start and the first fence. What would have happened if she’d jumped the first fence and continued on course, and then the jury had realized that the clock hadn’t started, since there was no one keeping time manually on the field? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, according to a lot of other sources, they DID start the clock!!!! This is the big discrepancy.

Weatherford
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:53 PM
As I mentioned it on another thread, I was watching BBC LIVE coverage - and they were watching the clocks - as well as their own monitors - and DIDN'T NOTICE anything wrong (and since it was THEIR TEAM AND RIDERS who went up, believe me, they WOULD HAVE NOTICED!) Even after it was announced, they were VERY sceptical, and commented that they were going to watch the tape carefully - which they did, and STILL didn't see it! Hence the interview with Mark Todd and he mentioned the unusual arrangement of the start flags - so, it appears the BEEB's cameras were not in a good position to catch it.

The HDV article was RIDICULOUS! (so, what's new?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

Robby Johnson
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:54 PM
I think the reason most of the riders are incensed is that there have been clear infractions and, rather than doing the right thing and declining the medal, the Germans seem to be grasping at straws to remain on top.

As a rider, it is your responsibility to know the rules and to uphold them. While losing a medal sucks the big one (because, let's face it, she did jump a clean round), it's important that the institution of the rules not be tarnished or ignored because one rider is a dingbat and doesn't really understand why she did what she did.

I personally say the Big Lick countries should boycott the Bejiing Olympics and everyone should demand the WEG run in true CCI w/steeplechase format.

If that cannot happen, I say screw the FEI/IOC, and let's just form a group dedicated to the true CCI test.

Robby

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:54 PM
Could anyone that has the video draw a bitmap of the circle, first jump, start flags, and where she was when the buzzer to start was sounded - and attach here?

It would help to have some kind of visual.

Did the bizzer sound when she was only a stride before crossing on casual circle, and therefore could not have changed her line to avoid crossing then? Although the rules may say you CAN cross before the buzzer, this would be a real reason to not, as you would be depending on the start person not buzzing at an inconvenient time in your circle.

Can someone post a diagram?

KellyS
Aug. 19, 2004, 12:58 PM
Amen Robby! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Miss Maddie
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:00 PM
I think we should just boycott the Beijing Olympics and let the Germans just stand up there all by themselves, on their turf with their jumps and officials and all the rest. If they want to control it, fine!!!

The rest of us, we'll stick to our REAL four star events!!!! And our thoroughbreds!!!!! (ok, and maybe a few Selle Francais, those horses were really nice)

&lt;do I sound bitter???&gt;

Miss Maddie
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:04 PM
[QUOTE]Hence the interview with Mark Todd and he mentioned the unusual arrangement of the start flags - so, it appears the BEEB's cameras were not in a good position to catch it.
QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but I have been to local horse trials where the position of the start flags was unusual, but that is NOT an excuse! You have to figure out where they are on your course walk, in fact, I would think that when they are walking the course with their team coach that this would have been pointed out to them! I know it has been on course walks I've been on before.

KateDB
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:05 PM
Yeehaw, Robby...I think I've heard that before!!!

Coreene
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:16 PM
From The Times in London:

Equestrianism
August 19, 2004

Britain appeal for gold
By Times Online and PA Sport

Great Britain’s three-day eventing team have joined forces with France and the USA to challenge the gold medal claims of Germany and Bettina Hoy.

Amid chaotic scenes at the Markopoulo Equestrian Centre last night, Hoy initially lost her title, then had it re-instated after officials looked into the allegation that she had circled the start area twice, which is against event rules.

Rules state that riders are allowed 45 seconds after the bell rings to start their round. However Hoy, who lives in Gloucestershire, went across the start-line but did not begin her round, turning a circle instead.

The judge had already started the clock and counted 14 seconds from when she made the circle towards the start line before putting the clock back to zero again when she crossed the start for a second time.

Silver medallist Leslie Law stands to claim Britain’s first gold of the Games should the joint action be successful, with Pippa Funnell moving into the bronze medal position.

The British team would also have their team bronze upgraded to silver.

Simon Clegg, the head of the Great Britain Olympic team, met with his French and United States counterparts to discuss the matter this morning and they have already notified the Federation Equestre Internationale (FEI) of their desire to challenge the outcome of last night’s competition.

”We have asked the FEI if we have exhausted their appeals process,” said Clegg.

”If we have, we will be lodging a formal appeal with CAS within 24 hours.

”We are putting a lot of work into this but we owe it to our athletes to challenge the verdict."

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:

Did the bizzer sound when she was only a stride before crossing on casual circle, and therefore could not have changed her line to avoid crossing then? Although the rules may say you CAN cross before the buzzer, this would be a real reason to not, as you would be depending on the start person not buzzing at an inconvenient time in your circle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's a moot point, because your time on course is supposed to start whenever you go through the flags, whether or not the buzzer has sounded, correct Janet?

Someone said earlier that it was clear on their video that the buzzer sounded when she was crossing the line. I really didn't hear anything that sounded like a buzzer at ALL when I watched my video, but I THINK I heard what sounded like a tone while the footage was still showing Kim Severson outside the ring. I counted, and it was about 10 seconds from the time of when I thought I heard the tone, and when it appeared that she crossed the start for the first time.

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think it's a moot point, because your time on course is supposed to start whenever you go through the flags, whether or not the buzzer has sounded, correct Janet?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Time starts when you (first) cross tha start line after the signal.

tle
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think it's a moot point, because your time on course is supposed to start whenever you go through the flags, whether or not the buzzer has sounded, correct Janet? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not janet, but...

yes. time starts when you go through the flags (the first time) AFTER the signal to start (buzzer) sounds. Basically the schedule of events is....

1- Enter Arena and you can go willy-nilly anywhere as long as you don't show the horse a fence or jump anything. USUALLY somewhere in here you salute the judge, but not mandatory.
2- Buzzer/Bell/Whistle/Whatever sounds to indicate you may start your round.
3- Rider goes through start flags (within 45 seconds after step #2 if they don't want to pick up penalties for being late) -- timing starts.
4- Rider completes course, rides through finish flags -- timing is stopped and faults added.

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:25 PM
Oh, whoops, don't mind me then. Sorry!

I did not hear a signal at any point in time near when she crossed the first time, but I am really not sure I heard a signal at all... so who knows.

tractor queen
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:36 PM
Oh I get it now (finally), someone reset the 45 sec countdown clock! So to her it looked like they started her 45sec after she had crossed the start line the first time (otherwise the scoreboard would have shown just a few seconds ticking up on the clock). So she thought she had time to circle again and only be counted as crossing the start line once since the buzzer had rung.

Not remembering hearing the buzzer ring is something that happens to me all of the time, so maybe she looked up to see the countdown clock still going and so she figured she had 35 seconds to cross the start line. (Her (normally correct) theory being if she was on course the number would be close to zero and counting up).

It would have been the timer's goof to restart the countdown clock, and if Bettina couldn't remember hearing the buzzer and looked at the scoreboard to see whether she was being timed under the countdown or the on-course time, she would have only had a split second to decide what to do. Either she started her course knowing at least the scoreboard clock wasn't right and risk possibly getting eliminated for starting before the bell, or she could circle and cross the start line to properly start the course clock for the scoreboard. If she truly relied on what the clock said, and it was wrong, then I would have to agree with the ground jury that it isn't fair that it be counted against her. True, if she kept going the back up clock would have worked and she would have still been timed, but maybe (and I can hear her coach saying this to her in the warmup)..."don't rush...take your time...45 seconds is plenty of time for a circle"...she was trying not to get rattled and was doubting whether the buzzer had been rung before she crossed the start line the first time, or after. It's a tough call either way, but I would have to rely on the ground jury, that is why they are there. I consider it poor sportmanship to argue it any further and it is not as black and white as it first seemed. Poor Bettina and all the other riders, there is no winner, in this all of the medals are tainted! I would argue that scoring someone with a rail down ahead of someone who went clean but was eliminated for a "questionable" reason, about which the opinions vary, would be the greater evil. I also think it is silly and unsportsmanlike to say the Germans own the equestrian events.

I'll bet the poor timer rang the bell without even considering how close she was to the start line. Glad it wasn't me and bet that person is having a miserable ttime to be at the center of such a dispute!

wanderlust
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:37 PM
I agree 100% with Miss Maddie and Robby. I was trying to explain to Mr. WL last night about how eventing is not the highlight of the eventing world any longer, and he had alot of difficulty understanding why the FEI/IOC would dumb things down so that all countries could compete. In fact, he argued with me that the Olympics should be the pinnacle of the sport.

Unfortunately, I don't think the Olympics will ever be the pinnacle of the sport again. So we move on, and create our own "Tour de France," hopefully with the help of WEG. Lots of other horse sports/disciplines are wildly successful without being a part of the Olympic games- Reining, hunters, AQHA, vaulting (did endurance become an Olympic sport? I can't remember)... just to name a few.

Lets not bastardize our sport in the name of politics. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:44 PM
I can't draw a diagram, as all I have to work off is the video, but here are some still shots.

Going through timers the first time (http://chronicleforums.com/bettina1.jpeg)

Circling... you can see first jump in the background (http://chronicleforums.com/bettina2.jpeg)

Approaching timers (http://chronicleforums.com/bettina3.jpeg)

Through timers, approaching first jump (http://chronicleforums.com/bettina4.jpeg)

spotted mustang
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:44 PM
LOL - this is all so very amusing. What a fabulous Greek tragedy. Or tragi-comedy? Seems to me that the officials are mostly to blame for causing all this confusion, but hey; they're human, too, and under a lot of stress during an event like this. Let's just assume that they'll do their best to solve it all in the interest of fairness...

talking of fairness, that quoted article is a shame. That GM and others would take this incident to go on a sweeping rant against everything German (the flooring?!) is just...low. Very unsporting of GM. Yuck.

mademoiselle
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> They probably have back up timers and that's probably how the officials realized their mistake.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They "realized their mistake" because the French pointed it out to them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read many press releases from Reuter, AFP and AP and nowhere it says that the French people went to see the officials to tell them.

I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying that I haven't seen any official statement refering to it.

If the french people would have done that, then would have had to fill up a appeal against the Germans and nobody says anything about that.

The only official appeal that I heard of was the one from the Germans to contest the decision.

If I read correctly it seems that the officials realized their mistake by themself and it's probably the reason why they changed the results so quickly after the stadium.

When you involve the FEI it always takes more time than that.

And I feel bad to have the French team pointed like they are horrible people to accuse the Germans.

KateDB
Aug. 19, 2004, 01:51 PM
I don't know how long it has been, but I never recall that the Olympics were truly the pinnacle of eventing.....really, Badminton and Burghley have always been, in my memory, since they are true 4 star tests. Even to a degree the World Championships had some of the edge taken off them and were not quite considered to be at the same level as BandB. It bothers me FAR more that the WEG have dumbed down eventing, than the OG. And imho, this is where we (purists!) should be focused.

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:05 PM
I agree. It has been a LONG time since the Olympic games have been "the pinnacle of eventing".

ESG
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:08 PM
The last time I remember it being "real" was in Seoul in '88. That XC course was a little too real, though, IIRC. I think only one horse/rider went clean? Or have I been at the cooking sherry again? But I do remember that Seoul was tough as he!!. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

mademoiselle
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:10 PM
I can't believe that I quit riding in dressage and I don't ride the hunters because it is too political for me and so that's why I'm an eventer now. You have rules and nothing is subjective http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Maybe time to switch for trail riding ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I read many press releases from Reuter, AFP and AP and nowhere it says that the French people went to see the officials to tell them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, for one, try this link, which appears to be AP.
In Medal Reversal, France Wins Equestrian (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040818/ap_on_sp_ol/oly_team_eventing_equ_3)<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ATHENS, Greece - France won the gold medal in the the team three-day event in the Olympic equestrian competition Wednesday after protesting the scores of the German team, which dropped from first place to fourth <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think that ANYONE is suggesting that the French were wrong to address it. You don't need to be defensive.

frugalannie
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:16 PM
I think I may be going over plowed ground here, but I'm just back from a day of taking my nephew around the Museum of Fine Arts, and so my brain is on 5th grade level (if that).

Back on page 17, Erin quoted Bettina Hoy as saying that she heard the tone, knew she had 45 seconds to start, and then decided to do one more circle. Ummm... Yes, one has 45 seconds to start, but that means one must start within 45 seconds, not necessarily dawdle around until the 45 seconds are up. Right? Once the tone has started, you are on course as soon as you cross the start line. No ifs, ands or buts.

I really respect the job Bettina did over the 4 days of riding. The sad thing is she had a brain fart, and is now trying to pretend she didn't. Good heavens, we saw enough gymnasts have BFs last night to know that the stess and anxiety can get to even top level athletes.

And GM should get his knickers untwisted.

Nope, I don't have any opinions: not me!

Pixie Dust
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:17 PM
I'm not sure I have it all right. She heard the buzzer, started, saw she had more time and circled again?

Hrmmmmm, while I'm just a novice eventer, I don't go anywhere near the start flags until I'm going to jump. To me, what the clock says is irrelevent because it's passing through the flags that starts the timer. She went through the start line and didn't jump. Sounds like a big ol' boo boo to me!

Frugal, I see we posted at the same time with the same conclusion!

Remember in Sydney when David O *almost* missed the last jump? They make silly mistakes too!

Magnolia
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:17 PM
You know, I had a Bettina moment once. I was doing a dressage test. I did my (lovely in my mind circle). Oh it was so lovely, I continued, in a dream like state, to do a second, half circle not required in the test. For that I was given a 2 point deduction by the judge.

So from now on, when we cluelessly space out, and make extra circles, go off course or just in general make a silly, it shall be called "A Bettina".

"Sorry I jumped the wrong jump - I was confused by the colors" - "That's OK, we all have a Betinna every now and then!"
"Did you see Mary and das Warmblood Mega - they pulled a Bettina on their canter pirouette".

How fun!

mademoiselle
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:20 PM
Sorry, I'm just really sad about the whole story, I wish the OGs were clean and we could all celebrate the medals.

dianad
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:23 PM
"A Bettina Moment". http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Love it!

frugalannie
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:26 PM
That must mean good luck, Pixie. And maybe that we'll never have "bettinas". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And while I'm on my hobby horse, has anyone heard why Ingrid Klimke pulled out of stadium just before her round?

Ellie K
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:27 PM
I have only read a small amount on this whole debacle...entirely on purpose, because I thought missing a couple of days of conflicting reports and speculation might not be a bad thing, since I wasn't there, didn't see the tape(s) (yet), plus have the eventing jumping and 'regular' jumping rules all confused in my head now...

But I have to say...this is just the biggest cluster f*$# I have EVER seen.

This is an absolute disaster for the FEI with the IOC, regardless of how it turns out...

The good news is that major changes have come as a result of the last major event fiasco (the 2002 WEG endurance ride). Sad that it took 2 horses dying to effect that change but many good things have come of it. Maybe this will have the same effect...a major wake up call.

At least it made everyone forget about the dressage GP Special debacle of last week! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Which, if the IOC were a little smarter or paying closer attention, would have obviously carried over into eventing and jumping and surely will be enforced for all three in 2008.

Velvet
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:30 PM
Well, I know that once, at my second combined test (when I was about 15 years old) I did a circle, but since I was already in last place after a disaster of a ride with my raving lunatic x-racehorse in dressage--they never even bothered to eliminate me. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Is that a retro-Bettina? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> At least it made everyone forget about the dressage GP Special debacle of last week! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK. I'll bite. What was that

horse_poor
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:44 PM
ok i have been in bed all day with barn sars--i take it germany is keeping the golde after the complaint filing etc?

Magnolia
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:47 PM
Velvet,
The main requirement is that you screwed up due to a space out on your part. A naughty horse/rider of a naughty horse is not given a Betinna if the error is caused in an attempt to improve the horse's performance. If, in fact you cirled and did it out of confusion, you may be granted a Bettina. If you did it to save your hide, no, that is an error.

mbp
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:56 PM
Arrrrgh - so let's see if I get this right.

1. Once the buzzer goes off, you have 45 seconds to start.

2. Once you go through the start flags, after the buzzer, you are ON COURSE!

3. Hoy went through the flags and "noticed" that she still had 35 seconds on the 45 second clock --- so she knew the buzzer had gone off and that she had gone through the start flags, but she thought someone might not have reset her time clock for her On Course time.

4. Knowing that the 45 second clock was running, and that she had gone through the start flags already, she circled and went back through the flags.

5. IF you are on course, making a circle counts as a refusal.

6. IF she had gone through the start flags after the buzzer went off (and there was no question about whether she was "worried" that her clock had not restarted) then it would be clear that there was a "refusal" (for making the circle after going through the flags) and the time would have started the first time through.

7. Because Hoy was so observant http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and thought that even though the buzzer had gone off and she had gone through the flags, that the time clock had not started and she should circle and go through the flags again - we have the controversy.

8. It is ALL DONE as far as appeals that can be settled quickly, but there may be an appeal pending through the international sports arbitration committee that, even if it were successful, would take several months to be decided.

Is that close to right?

Risk-Averse Rider
Aug. 19, 2004, 02:58 PM
Velvet's question clearly brings up the need for CLEAR rules about exactly what constitutes a Bettina.

Someone care to start, in best rules-book-ese?

Ellie K
Aug. 19, 2004, 03:04 PM
quote:
At least it made everyone forget about the dressage GP Special debacle of last week!
OK. I'll bite. What was that?

OMG...I'm getting my boards confused http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The IOC approves the FEI's technical rules for the OG long before. Same rules as for Sydney and maybe even Atlanta. Team medals decided by the GP test, then top 25 in the GP compete in the GP Special, top 15 from GP Special--with no more than 3 from any one country--qualify for the Freestyle which determines the individual medals.

The Olympic Charter states that no more than 3 per nation may compete in individual events. THe FEI always interpreted this to mean the medal 'round,' ie. the Freestyle. But if you look at the other sports, even in a qualifying heat in track, no more than 3 per country at any time. So the FEI just never interpreted the charter this way and I think one of the little countries must have called the IOC on it; otherwise why would they change this on Aug. 13!!! They told the FEI they had to change it, with the obvious countries protesting but I don't think this has been appealed to the CAS, which puzzled me because I really feel that protest is warranted in this situation.

You have your teams selected based on the published IOC-approved rules. Some horses do better in the GP Special, so you might pick them even if their GP test isn't as strong because they still have a good enough shot at top 25 and can make up the difference in the Special. The way it is now, the GP test is more influential.

The rule itself I think is fine, to allow more diversity in the individual medals. But you don't change it on Aug 13!!!!! AAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! This one cannot be blamed on the FEI. Maybe now they know what it feels like to be an NF http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif But I felt bad for them that the IOC sort of left them high and dry to announce 'their' decision to the equestrian world. Not nice!!

My brain is completely fried with how this would play out in the current eventing format but this ruling will definitely affect the early rounds in jumping (edited to clarify that the IOC didn't notice the problem in the other disciplines, so for now, they're OK with the rules as written. But the rules will surely be changed for all 3 in the next OG). That is, assuming they don't kick them all out http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

Magnolia
Aug. 19, 2004, 03:06 PM
First off, a Betinna can only be a "space out error". It can not be a butt saving error or an error meant to help train a horse.

For example, on cross country, you circle to regain control of "Sir Crazytrain". Not a Bettina.

Another example - you are clearly lost on course and you circle - not a Bettina. You purposefully circled.

Let's say you are galloping down to the Weldon's Wall at your first BN horse trial and space out with images of Rolex in your head and jump the Prelim side instead of the Beginner Novice ditch side. That's a Bettina. You spaced out.

You are on course and are distracted by the sexy jump judge in a speedo and circle to get a closer look. That may or may not be a Bettina and will be referred to the jury.

So the main thing is that you erred because you simply weren't paying attention and got lost in a moment.

dogchushu
Aug. 19, 2004, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Risk-Averse Rider
Velvet's question clearly brings up the need for CLEAR rules about exactly what constitutes a Bettina.

Someone care to start, in best rules-book-ese? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You want CLEAR and RULE-BOOK-EASE? At the same time? Is that even possible? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ellie K
Aug. 19, 2004, 03:40 PM
[/QUOTE]
You want CLEAR and RULE-BOOK-EASE? At the same time? Is that even possible? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/QUOTE]

Yeah, we don't really "do" that, do we?

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Can we designate an entry-level category of Bettina, like a quasi-Bettina or honorary-Bettina or almost-Bettina? And award it retroactively to David O'Connor http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Also can we have a lifetime achievement sort of cumulative Bettina? Nominations anyone?

Risk-Averse Rider
Aug. 19, 2004, 04:03 PM
We used to have a running joke among fencing officials:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Les règlements sont clairs! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>(The rules are clear!)

Just as in equestrian, the rules were SELDOM clear. For example, the attack was defined (more or less) as the arm extending, point [of the weapon] threatening the opponent's valid target. Anyone see the problem here? WHICH arm? Doesn't say "the arm holding the weapon"...

One of our top officials used to demonstrate this in clinics. He'd hold the weapon close to his body, with the point threatening the opponent's valid target, then extend his *other* arm straight in the air.

But I digress... I'm sure there are equally silly examples in the eventing rules.

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 04:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mbp:

3. Hoy went through the flags and "noticed" that she still had 35 seconds on the 45 second clock --- so she knew the buzzer had gone off and that she had gone through the start flags, but she thought someone might not have reset her time clock for her On Course time.

4. Knowing that the 45 second clock was running, and that she had gone through the start flags already, she circled and went back through the flags. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I'm not sure about. Notice that her quote says:

"The rules say I have 45 seconds to cross the start line after the bell rings. When I was close to the start line I saw 35 seconds left on the clock, so I decided to do another circle. After I had finished my round, I had a clear round inside the time."

It sounds in THAT quote like she's trying to deny she crossed the line twice. Like, she was thinking about starting, but still had a lot of time left, so she did one more circle to get ready.

JER
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:31 PM
More from the Times (London):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>August 20, 2004

Hoy must pay full penalty for actions if first mistake was hers

From Simon Barnes, Chief Sports Writer

LET me tell you about the first showjumping event I rode in. I entered the arena, saluted the judges, jumped the first fence — in some style, I might add — and the bell at once rang for my elimination. It seemed a poor return for six hours of travel, my entry fee and a day of sick-making anxiety.

Ignorant of the protocol, I had failed to go through the start. I was aggrieved: I felt that I should be allowed another go. But I was wrong to be aggrieved. This was serious sport: it wouldn’t be worth winning if we were just messing about. Sport is trivial, but if we don’t take it seriously, it has no meaning. And if that is true of a novice showjumping event, it surely must be true of the Olympic Games.

Bettina Hoy made the opposite mistake to me and went through the start twice. This does not mean elimination: what it should mean is 14 time penalties and a redivision of all the medals, to Great Britain’s considerable advantage. But the whole issue has gone to a stratospheric level of appeal and it is a horrible mess. I can’t bear sport when they bring the lawyers in.

There are two points to consider here. The first is that Hoy was not seeking nor gaining an advantage by what she did, it wasn’t like a false start in the 100 metres sprint. It was the same sort of mistake that happened to Ian Woosnam. He was in serious contention at golf’s Open Championship when his caddie noticed that he had one club too many in his bag. Woosnam gained no advantage but he had breached protocol. So he was penalised two strokes. Hoy should suffer the appropriate consequences of her own breach of protocol.

It is not a love of nit-picking rules that makes me say this. But without meaningless rules, the artificial world of sport collapses. You make a contract when you participate in sport at any serious level: accept the rules, however absurd, or don’t play. You can’t let people off for a well-meaning error at any level in sport, let alone the Olympic Games. Sport’s rule must be (rather unpleasantly) draconian if sport is to exist.

In other words, Hoy must take her penalties and weep, and the British team must take its shining medals with a decent and unhypocritical sadness.

There is only one area of doubt, and that is the second point to consider. If Hoy made the error off her own bat, the situation is as I described and that is the end of the matter. But if she made the error because of poor officiating, then equally unquestionably, the situation must stand.

We are here to protect athletes, not officials. Athletes come first, officials are there to serve them. The issue is not whether or not a degree of clemency is appropriate, it is about who made the first mistake. Our learned friends should concentrate on that issue only. And if the error is Hoy’s, then she should suffer the appropriate consequences. At least she got to jump more than one fence. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JER
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:45 PM
From Lucinda Green in the Telegraph:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is horrible, it is messy. It is the modern face of sport
By Lucinda Green
(Filed: 20/08/2004)

If you want to put your sport on the front page, three-day eventing has unintentionally just played the trump card of all time. Both the individual and team gold medals were won late on Wednesday by Germany, in the face of a ground jury ruling against their best-scored member, Bettina Hoy, being overruled by the appeals committee. An appeal against which is now on its way to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Hoy had a moment of forgetfulness and cantered through the start after the bell had gone but before she meant to start. As she circled back to come through the start again, she apparently checked the clock, which indicated that it had been zeroed again, in readiness for her next attempt, so she saw no need to hurry unduly on her ride.

It was based on the fact that the clock had – incorrectly – been re-zeroed by the timekeepers (an independent company run by Swatch) that the appeals committee overruled the ground jury. They cited the Germans' defence that Hoy had checked the clock after she had gone through the first time and saw that her time allowed had not yet started running.

The fact remains that the wretched rules say that once you go through the start after the bell, you are deemed to have started your round. And no matter what happened to the clock, Hoy, like the rest of us, would have known about that rule since her earliest competition days. It is something, as so many e-mails to the BBC pointed out, that we have all learnt since pony club. You do not go through the start after the bell, and circle away from the first fence, without expecting to incur penalties for a refusal for crossing your tracks, added to whatever time faults may accrue owing to the extra circle.

The ground jury, headed by a German, Christoph Hess, therefore rightly, though miserably in the face of such an excellent performance, decided to award Hoy 14 time penalties, which the back-up clock apparently indicated she would have collected. Now, why four penalties for a refusal were not also added to the 14, I cannot discover.

Somehow, with all this going on, Hoy managed a second excellent show-jumping round, and clinched the gold medal individually, while her earlier, time penalty-free show-jumping round had already secured the team gold.

For the period of time while the ground jury's findings were upheld, the German team dropped to fourth, and Hoy to eighth individually.

The Germans put up a deserving and excellent performance during a peculiar Olympic competition. They should, I have no doubt, win on merit.

Regrettably, as I saw it, a transgression of an essentially elementary rule, led to the chaos, relayed by a confused media to a perplexed world, that enveloped the sport at its very peak. And if the rules that saw a competitor penalised – in the same manner as the ground jury wished to penalise Hoy – at an event in France not so many years ago, then why should the same not apply here at the Olympic Games?

It is horrible, it is messy. It is the modern face of sport. But I fear that, much as I would prefer to be sporting and have the best man win on the day, if a forgetful moment gave rise to one of one's worst fears (starting before the bell is another of those fears, that nerves can produce and for which the ultimate penalty is given: elimination), and the rules were infringed, then no matter how miserable the whole beastly situation is, the rules should stand.

What the appeals committee accepted, that poor Bettina Hoy saw the clock had been re-zeroed and rode accordingly, is secondary to the fact that she should never have gone through the start in the first place, if she was not intending to start.

Probably one of the saddest things is the undeserving shadow cast across the excellence of the Greeks' Olympic equestrian preparation, by an inconsequential and unchallenging cross-country course added to the unprecedented chaos over Hoy's score, which, by mere association, implicates the Greeks, whose fault it most definitely was not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

mbp
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:47 PM
So - should Velvet's mistake be called a Bettina or Ahoy?

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:50 PM
JER, thanks so much for posting those. I think both writers hit the nail on the head.

JER
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:56 PM
A few pages back, there's some talk about how the FEI and IOC need to stand up to the German federation in this situation.

But really, the one who should be standing up to the German federation is Bettina Hoy. She should admit to her mistake and tell them to stop fighting for something that's an embarrassment to the sport.

mbp
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:02 PM
Someone, somewhere, posted that it is NOT a refusal penality under the FEI rules to circle/cross track on stadium. IS that the case? Lucinda seems to think it is a refusal too - and I know under US rules it would be -- what is the FEI rule?

Lookout
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:04 PM
I don't see how her "story" makes any difference whatsoever. Since when does a competitor get to explain their mistake. It is up to the officials to observe and decide based on what they see, not what the competitor says.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mbp:

3. Hoy went through the flags and "noticed" that she still had 35 seconds on the 45 second clock --- so she knew the buzzer had gone off and that she had gone through the start flags, but she thought someone might not have reset her time clock for her On Course time.

4. Knowing that the 45 second clock was running, and that she had gone through the start flags already, she circled and went back through the flags. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I'm not sure about. Notice that her quote says:

"The rules say I have 45 seconds to cross the start line after the bell rings. When I was close to the start line I saw 35 seconds left on the clock, so I decided to do another circle. After I had finished my round, I had a clear round inside the time."

It sounds in THAT quote like she's trying to deny she crossed the line twice. Like, she was thinking about starting, but still had a lot of time left, so she did one more circle to get ready. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RacetrackReject
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And if the rules that saw a competitor penalised – in the same manner as the ground jury wished to penalise Hoy – at an event in France not so many years ago, then why should the same not apply here at the Olympic Games?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What does that mean? Is there already precedence (I can't spell) in this situation?

I'm glad to see that someone as respectable as Lucinda Green also sees the situation as we have been reading it. I agree with everything she said. No doubt Germany deserves the gold, but that doesn't change the rules or the fact that the rules were broken. Forget what else went wrong, the only point that should matter is that this is the rule and it was broken, so the penalty must stand.
I don't really understand why the issue has been made so much more difficult than it really is. Yeah, it's the Olympics and Bettina and Germany will be really upset if they don't get the gold, but sh!t happens. France did an outstanding job, within the limits of the rules, and they are no less deserving of that gold medal.

Janet
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:08 PM
The FEI rules for the show jumping phase of eventing make no mention of "circling" or "crossing your tracks". Just 4 penalty points for a "disobedience"- which is not further defined. but someone else pointed out that we may need to look at the FEI show jumping rules for the definitioan of "disobedience", since they are referred to at the beginning of the section. I haven't done that yet.

OK, in the FEI JUMPING rules, there is a definition of disobedience, whch includes the following:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 1.4. a more or less regular circle or group of circles no matter
where they occur on the course or for whatever reason.
2. Notwithstanding the above, the following is not considered
to be a disobedience:
2.1 circling for up to 45 seconds after a run-out or a refusal
(no matter the obstacle has to be rebuilt or not) to get into
position to jump an obstacle;
2.2 circling around the last obstacle jumped or the next
obstacle to be jumped. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So now I am further confused.

Mariequi
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:16 PM
Re Ingrid's horse, I called one of the USA's reporting journalists to inquire about what had happened (I really wanted to see that one go) and he said that she reported a questionable stifle and that her horse had a wonderful go, done everything asked, and that she would not risk its health. Her father would be (is) proud.

Portia
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:20 PM
I took the day off and don't want to plow through the 10 pages since last night? What is the current status of the protest to the CAS?

It really is a bad situation, but I think she hurt her case with her comments, at least as she was quoted. The lawyer for the protesting team should be able to make a pretty simple case: (1) she admits she heard the buzzer, (2) she admits she saw the start clock counting down, (3) she admits she intentionally circled after the buzzer, although she was not aware she had passed through the start flags and thought she was only "close to" them, (4) the start flags were in fact clearly marked and properly placed, and (5) the FEI rules clearly state that a rider is responsible for knowing the rules and for following them, regardless of equipment.


As far as the procedure goes:

The Tribunal Arbitral du Sport/Court of Arbitration for Sport is responsible for resolving disputes concerning Olympic and international sports on an international level, both nation-to-nation disputes and athlete protests and grievances. Here's their website, which explains what their charter is and has a copy of their rules. TAS/CAS (http://www.tas-cas.org/)

An arbitration at the CAS is not a lawsuit; it is a binding dispute resolution method in which the parties have agreed to opt out of the national court sytems. The IOC and all of the national overall Olympic federations (such as the USOC), and the competing athletes, agree that their disputes will be finally resolved before the CAS. Such agreement is a prerequisite to participation, and in many cases it is written into national law for Olympic organizations (such as the USOC). Each country has similar domestic arbitration procedures for their athletes and disputes outside of actual international competition. (The USOC has a deal with the American Arbitration Association for it to administer sports arbitrations under its jurisdiction.)

The TAS/CAS is based in Lausanne, Switzerland. However, during the Olympic Games it "convenes" at the site of the games. It tries to resolve disputes that occur during the Games very quickly if possible. In fact, they keep a roster of qualified arbitrators on call during the game to hear disputes (particularly athlete issues that affect the right to compete) as soon as possible.

The dispute will be resolved by a panel of international arbitrators who are certified to hear and decide international sporting disputes. The indivdiual arbitrators probably will not have any personal experience in the particular sport, but they are virtually all well respected international lawyers with substantial experience in arbitration, and they are very familiar with the basic rules that apply to virtually all Olympic movement competition.

How long it will take can in part depend on what rights to hearings and evidence the parties demand and which one's they are willing to waive in the interests of having the dispute resolved as soon as possible. The parties have the right to be represented by counsel and to present evidence, including written briefs, witness statements, documentary and video evidence, and live testimony.

I don't know how many arbitrators will sit on a panel of this type. The usual number is three, but it could be more. (I havent'e checked the CAS rules for nation to nation protests as opposed to athlete grievances.) If the CAS apponts them, it is very likely that none of the panel members will be German, French, British, or US. In any event, they will each be required to be independent and unbiased (terms having a particular meaning in international arbitration).

As I mentioned, they probably won't know much about Equestrian per se, but they will all know the standards of sports and sports disputes and be familiar with reading sports rules and regulations. They will also know the politics involved, and they are human. So we'll just have to see what happens.

Gnep
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:29 PM
One could call it the Anglo/Franco conspiracy.
German Judges, German footing, German stals, German jumps and yaiks them dam Krauts did ride good on top of it, realy good and won the G-Medals.
That was not supposed to be, because it was the Anglos and Francos who were supposed to win.
Since they could not beat the Germans square and faire, they protest and even if the ground jury admitted that they screwed up. It don't matter the wrong guys won and that can't be.

Smells of lousy looser syndrom.

LHL
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:33 PM
JER speaks of his (hers?) first event in which saluting the judge before the start of stadium was the protocol. This used to be the rule and served both rider and ground jury. The mutual salute indicated that both were ready for the start of the round. Rider saluted and the judge signaled with whistle or bell that the course was ready for the rider to start.

This was changed in the name of compressing the time schedule. As an official both before and after the rule change, I much prefer the former as it clarifies for all concerned the status of the competition as it would have in this situation.

mbp
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:36 PM
ROFLMAO

Yep, the Yanks and the Francs are so close these days, they are cookin up one conspiracy after another. We will soon find the WMD and the world will discover that they were hanging out under a nice Bernaise sauce http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:39 PM
Gnep, I think the reason most people are pissed is because we ALL know people who have pulled this exact same "Bettina" -- or we've done it ourselves -- and had to be a graceful loser.

This is a rule that's drilled into every eventer's head from day one. Every course walk I ever went on began with figuring out where the start flags were, and where I was going to do my circle.

So far (and I admit we don't know all the facts yet), the argument from the Germans just sounds like complete BS to me.

Lookout
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:46 PM
So Gnep, which rules is it okay to break, and which ones do you have to adhere to and how do you decide? The ones which insure your country wins? Is it ok to not go thru the finish flags? What if she had missed a fence on XC? What if her horse stepped out of the dressage ring? No, they didn't win it fair and square on the contrary they have to bend the rules to win. Restarting the timer is fair and square?

Duramax
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:56 PM
Good one Gnep...Once again you have wowwed me with your insight. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Well said Lookout.

LLDM
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:02 PM
Man you all are wound too tight! Gnep made a JOKE. Considering some of the horrid things said by some on this thread, I would think a little humor is in order.

It's not the end of the world. It's confusion over a rule. Hopefully it will get sorted out by people who don't care.

I didn't think winning was supposed to be the most important thing to "real" horse people.

SCFarm

ESG
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mbp:
ROFLMAO

Yep, the Yanks and the Francs are so close these days, they are cookin up one conspiracy after another. We will soon find the WMD and the world will discover that they were hanging out under a nice Bernaise sauce http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, come now. A Bernaise wouldn't be nearly thick enough; Hollandaise, definitely. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And don't get me started on the US/France thing. It appears that protest, as well as politics, makes strange bedfellows. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Duramax
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:08 PM
I don't think she made a joke... but thats just me. I just remember some of her past posts and this one seemed quite in line with the others ...Oh and since we've got a "conspiracy" going on-- she's German too!!!

lyrical lu
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Since they could not beat the Germans square and faire <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While Bettina was the best rider for that event, she did cross the start timers twice. That is not winning fairly.

Please pass the escargot.

LLDM
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:16 PM
Well, the truth finally comes out now. We didn't really win WWII. They just let us think so. Haven't they done a great job of letting us think we've had free will?

***THIS IS A JOKE, IT IS ONLY A JOKE, IF IT HAD BEEN REAL, IT WOULD HAVE A http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif ICON IN IT!****

SCFarm

mademoiselle
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:01 PM
GNEP,

Let's say that during the dressage final, Lisa Wilcox, forgets to take off the bell boots of her horse.
She rides the test of the century and deserves to win the gold. She is lucky enough that nobody saw it. Trust me, if a medal is in Jeopardy, the Germans will be the 1st ones to protest.
Do I think that having bell boots on a horse gives you an advantage when you ride dressage ... Honnestly, I don't think so.
Do I think it would be fair to disqualified somebody who forgets to take them off : yes. And you know why, just because IT'S THE RULE.
Rules are not made to be fair and reward the best rider they are there to help to be fair in the sport with everybody in any circumstances.

Do I think that Bettina would deserve the gold medal on her sole performance : YES
Do I think Bettina deserves the gold medal : NO.
And it's just because a rule is a rule and she made a mistake, she must pay the price for it.

Like everybody else said, I've learnt the hard way to wait for the bell to start my course, to cross the start line only one time, to not carry a whip in the dressage arena, to not leave bell boots during a dressage test and to not put a breastcollar on my horse when I ride in dressage (even if it's OK in eventing) !)
Guess what ? Many I could have won the show because I had the best ride, but I got disqualified and I sucked it up.

A French girl who likes Germans particulary when they follow the rules like everybody else !

MyArgie
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:13 PM
OH MY GOD, 21 pages of bickering on this! ok, it was some sort of a mixup, is it really that monumental who wins??? ok, so if germany drops US gets bronze, does that change the entire universe???? this is just not THAT vital. it is a SPORT, not a life and death contest. relax, there are too many useless rules anyway, not saying the starting marker rules are ridiculus, but i mean some of the rules the exist are downright silly. shame on the organizers for making it all so complicated with this electronic eye, and such. give it all a rest!

Beezer
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
I was watching it live - and my friend Ann taped it and has watched it over and over - and from the camera angle WE saw, she was fine...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, this is very close to my own personal pet theory. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If indeed, as many have noted, the flags/timers were set very far apart, it would be quite possible that from Bettina's line of sight, she did not realize that she went through the timer the first time. She was likely judging her circle off one of the flags/timers without realizing that the arc of it actually took her past the other timer. (I'm not sure I'm explaining this well.)

After looking at the video multiple times, it's apparent to me, at least http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif , that she was absolutely not heading to the first fence and was making another circle, which is why she said she still had 35 seconds left -- because she didn't realize she'd tripped the timers.

Now, obviously, that was a horrifically stupid error, if that's indeed what happened. And it's a separate one from the "helpful" person who reset the clock.

Finally, I just have to say that while I generally applaud JS' coverage and adore the Chronicle, I just don't know what planet he's doing his reporting from in this case. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

radar
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:04 PM
from the 16 people that I heard from that actually watched it happen, Bettina realized that the clock had not started when she crossed, and circled instead of going to the first fence very obviously, thinking she had not actually heard the start signal even though she thought she had.... If you've shown a lot, you've been there! It is absolutely right not to penalize her if the clock controller made the mistake of not starting the clock, if she was astute enough to catch it. If you were in the same situation and it happened to you like that, what would you think if you were on top of your game enough to notice? Even though it cost us a medal, that is the epitome of a "thinking rider."

ponyjumper4
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>from the 16 people that I heard from that actually watched it happen, Bettina realized that the clock had not started when she crossed, and circled instead of going to the first fence very obviously, thinking she had not actually heard the start signal even though she thought she had.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I seriously doubt they know what she was thinking at that time.

RacetrackReject
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> that is the epitome of a "thinking rider." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems to me a thinking rider would have thought- the rules say the clock starts when I passed through the flags the first time so I better get my ass to the first fence. Since the timers did register 14 seconds before the time was restarted I don't see how that is even a valid arguement.
And if it were me, I would have gotten my ass to the first fence because I know the rules. If there is a problem with the clocks it is someone else's job to warn me by blowing the whistle. I also don't have time to keep checking and making sure the clocks are working when jumping a course.

Bensmom
Aug. 19, 2004, 09:22 PM
Portia -- do you know if there are special provisions that will govern whether the dispute can even be heard by the CAS? I know that, as a general rule, the appeals committee at an FEI event is the last word, and it is not possible to protest the decision that the appeals committee makes.

In a "normal" FEI competition, this makes sense, because all of the individuals involved dispurse after the event and there is not an "umbrella" organization.

Here, of course, with the event being part of the larger Olympic Games, it seems as if it would make sense to allow the appeal to be taken to the CAS.

As a matter of fact, since it isn't technically an appeal, but rather a dispute taken to binding arbitration, does it even trigger the FEI rules about no further appeals at all? Hmmmm.

I think, and I am working on memory from the FEI rules here, as I am too lazy to lean over and dig up my rule book, that the language used is actually that the decision of the appeal committee is "final" -- which wouldn't just preclude further appeals, but would stand, regardless of what the CAS does.

However, as the IOC awards the medals, and not the FEI, shouldn't there be the opportunity to utilize the CAS as other sports do, at least for the duration of the games?

I will take a look at their website, but does anyone know how other sports have handled an issue like this? Do sports that usually have a rule that makes their governing body the final arbiter of what happens use the CAS procedures during the Games?

Lawyers wonder about weird stuff at night while they are trying to sleep. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I've actually served on two FEI appeals committees, one that made a ruling and one that didn't have to do anything at all. I frankly found it frightening that someone else wasn't going to review whatever decision we reached, but I got over that and felt we did the right thing.

Libby

Gnep
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:00 PM
Duramax

Graceful loosers, pruuuuuuuuuuuust, the gracefull loosers are going to court so they can win.

By the way, I forgot to mention that German Warmblood conection, besides the German Jumps, the German Footing, the German Stals and the German Judges.
Oh I forgot, they should have puled Klimke of the course for speeding. Gee, she was so good she could even fall of her horse and still wip everybody in X-C, while others had their horses run away with them like a Novice rider and still could not make time.

Guys is it so difficult to admit, they were just better this time around and BH and her Horse were just the best.
Timing device or not, circle or not, Officials or not Team Germany was the best and BH and her Horse were the best. They earned the medal, they stood on the Podium, they know it and the rest just tries to drag them down.

Duramax last time I had the need I stood and did not squad.

LLDM, you got it, loosing WWII was just a trick, Germany will do it through equsetrian sport, that world domination thing, German warmbloods will rule, blue eyed and blond ..........

radar
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:02 PM
Having been in that situation before, several times, I think I do know what she was thinking. I ride in Grand Prix for a living, and have been very fortunate, and I know what kinds of doubts you can have as a rider, and what the defenses are in the "heat of the moment." If she went through the timers and saw that the clock had not started, in one of the most important events in her life, she was justified in circling, and had good reason. It's hard to criticize someone with justification when you haven't "walked a mile in their moccasins."

Starsnstripes
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:37 PM
It seems to me that in the last four years there was great debate about whether or not to even include 3-Day Eventing in the Olympics. And there has certaintly been a LOT of debate over the changed format. I just have to wonder how this latest debacle will be received. And whether it will have lasting negative repercussions... . As we can all see by these several pages of debate there are many strongly held points of view. Sadly, I fear it does not help our sport very much.

xegeba
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:58 PM
I would have to say that this controversy is far from a "debacle". The rule book will surely be re-written. How many other riders circled after the buzzer was sounded? How many other riders had to deal with the screwed up clock guy? How many riders listen for the buzzer and then make sure the clock guy has got his stuff together? Everybody bitches about "politics" in the collective sport at all levels. How come this is any different? If Bettina was going in last place, would this be an issue? I would ,at the very least, expect an Olympic Rider to know where the damn flags were. If they don't, too damn bad for them.

Robby Johnson
Aug. 20, 2004, 03:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gnep:

Oh I forgot, they should have puled Klimke of the course for speeding. Gee, she was so good she could even fall of her horse and still wip everybody in X-C, while others had their horses run away with them like a Novice rider and still could not make time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have a lot to learn. That is not "good" in eventing standards. That is careless and dangerous riding. Had the course been up to snuff there is no way she would've pulled that one off. Also, had the course been up to snuff there is no way Hoy would've pulled it off either. God bless that horse she is sitting on for doing his job, because in my book flopping around and growling and holding onto the reins, as she did, doesn't equate to a strategic, tactful cross-country ride. A trickier course would've weeded her out early on.

And the very last thing I would assert is that Primmore's Pride went around like a Novice horse. That horse has won 2 back-to-back 4* three-day events. His performance was an acute illustration of the horse that is required now for the Olympic Three-Day Event. Less talented, less athletic, etc. While I love Ingrid's horse - I loved watching him go in Sydney - and think she is a brilliant rider, I don't think speeding equates to "whipping" anyone.

The article JER quoted a few pages ago, written by a Brit, gets to the heart of it. We all know the rules and we all abide by them. It's disappointing that she cannot lose gracefully.

Robby

ponyjumper4
Aug. 20, 2004, 04:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Having been in that situation before, several times, I think I do know what she was thinking. I ride in Grand Prix for a living, and have been very fortunate, and I know what kinds of doubts you can have as a rider, and what the defenses are in the "heat of the moment." If she went through the timers and saw that the clock had not started, in one of the most important events in her life, she was justified in circling, and had good reason. It's hard to criticize someone with justification when you haven't "walked a mile in their moccasins." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't matter what level you ride in, it could be backyard schooling shows for that matter, but the fact is, there is no possible way anyone but her would know what was going through her head at the time and why she did exactly what she did, or whether she was "thinking she had not actually heard the start signal even though she thought she had....". It's all purely speculation. The only one that really knows what happened is her and she should just fess up and tell the real and same story.

ESG
Aug. 20, 2004, 04:46 AM
Very, very well put, Robby. I couldn't agree more. Both you and Lucinda Green hit the nail on the head. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Mariequi
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:10 AM
Applaud your words, Robby.

Also, as the 'rules lady' for years, it seems some don't think it matters so much what the rules say if the 'right' rider won. Wrong. We've all had to live by the rules, whether you've gone in the ring with a Dressage whip or wraps or out on xc recrossed a path or hesitated a moment too long at a fence causing a judge's call that made you wince. Everyone is accountable.

BritishEventer
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:17 AM
Lucinda Green, Simon Barnes, Robby Johnson - couldn't agree more.

I think the essential thing about this, is the fact that sport only works and continues because of 'trivial' rules. If at any point a rule breaking is forgiven, then the sport is in collapse.

The matter of who rode the best, and who COMPETED the best are, unfortunately, entirely seperate.

Also, the president of the ground jury, Christoph Hess, is in fact German - he was the person who decided upon the 14 time faults for bettina. You can't accuse him of discriminating against his own country surely? Equally, one of the members of the appeals commity was Hugh Thomas, who allowed the german appeal through, despite it working against his 'own' great british team. Doesn't seem like the officials are being biased to me. Lets just hope that this all works out with the rules being left upstanding, as wretched as that is.

Rachel xx

Magnolia
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:25 AM
Part of being a TOP rider, the best in the world, is having your $hit together. You KNOW the rules, you've studied that course and know where those timers are. YOU know what you can and can't do. If she didn't study the course enough to be aware of the timers, she slipped up on the preparation for being a good rider.

She made an amateur mistake. It's something I would do, for pete's sake. And if someone "caught me" I'd have a good laugh and never do it again.

If it was me, I'd give up that gold and make a sassy statement about being the best anyway and walk away darn proud that I won on performance, but lost due to a brain slip (ie, a Bettina), and I'd go buy myself a sassy piece of gold jewelry and have it engraved "Olympic Champ!"

JustJump
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:38 AM
&lt;&lt;I would ,at the very least, expect an Olympic Rider to know where the damn flags were. If they don't, too damn bad for them.&gt;&gt;

This about sums it up. I'm wondering where the rumor started that there were "no" backup timers at the OLYMPIC GAMES?

Magnolia
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This about sums it up. I'm wondering where the rumor started that there were "no" backup timers at the OLYMPIC GAMES? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Figured they took her faults away because they restarted and couldn't accuarately calculate them. Sounds like they took them away because they confused her instead....

oskaar
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:47 AM
Was anyone watching swimming last night? Paul Piersol won the gold medal in the backstroke and set a new OR. He was promptly disqualified for making an illegal turn.

The DQ was not upheld for 3 reasons:

1) The call was made in another language (must be made in either French or English, the Olympics languages).
2) THere was too much confusion in the call-- they could not get a good enough camera angle, and decided if they were going to make an error in judgment, they should favor the athlete.
3) Those finishing behind Paul were the first to stand up against the DQ.

I thought it was amazing how the other athletes stood up and said they would not take a higher medal because he deserved it. THere was simply too much uncertainty in the call.

Clearly, we have some very different opinions on what happened with Bettina. Yes, we have all made stupid mistakes, but different camera angles are proving to show different events. And those who witnessed it in person (Weatherford) have stated they couldn't see the error. Don't you think if there is so much confusion we should err in favor of the athlete?

Second of all, i am disgusted with everyone who has turned this into "well, she wasn't really the best anyway" sort of argument. I haven't seen the whole thing (I have it taped for this weekend), but I have seen bits and pieces. Suddenly, Bettina never would have made it had we run the "true format," so let's just pull her medal from her. WHAT???

Yes, rules are rules. If you break them, you should pay for that. Honestly though, can you imagine all the emotions running through you, and now everyone is telling you what they saw or didn't see, and asking you what happened... now, you are so stressed that you are trying to remember what happened--did it really happen? Are you imagining what happened based on what people have or haven't told you?

This whole thing is just ridiculous. Let's move on to dressage.

M. O'Connor
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:48 AM
"No backup timers" is a very unlikely scenario.

Mr. M was part of the crew at the Atlanta Olympics and says that BOXES of timers were brought out and handed to crew members (all of whom were lic officials, including internationally lic officials, slumming it at the Olympics as ring crew) scattered throughout the field, and designated ones at the start/finish lines. (Yes, during the 3-day jumping, which was apparently quite dreadful, very low jumps--3'9"ish-- and has all sorts of strange rules, but none of which involve the start/finish lines). "No backup timers" would seem to be quite an oversight. But perhaps the box was misplaced this time around? Seems kinda far-fetched...so I'm not believing that one.

It would also be quite an oversight for an international rider to overlook the location of the start/finish line, but many of the top riders on the top teams are "known" for what could only be termed "brinksmanship."

Hmmm. I know I'd be racking up those seconds if I broke the beam (whether it was working or not) earlier than planned, and I wouldn't be lookin' at a CLOCK on the way to the first jump, either, and I don't know ANYTHING compared to those riders--so "hmmmm" again...

Also...I don't believe Weatherford said she was there in person, she saw it on TV...

LLDM
Aug. 20, 2004, 05:54 AM
From Yahoo Sports News LINK to ORIGINAL (http://sports.yahoo.com/oly/equestrian/news?slug=ap-equestrianappealequ&prov=ap&type=lgns)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
CAS receives appeal against three-day event decision

August 20, 2004

ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- France, Britain and the United States lodged a joint appeal Friday with the Court of Arbitration for Sport against the decision that gave Germany the gold medal in the three-day team equestrian event.

CAS general secretary Matthieu Reeb said a three-member panel would hold a hearing on the case later Friday, with a verdict expected Saturday.

Germany's riders won the gold medal Wednesday but not before losing it, and then winning it back, in a bizarre flurry of judging decisions and reversals. The turnabout briefly gave the U.S. team the bronze.

Initially, the judges gave Germany the gold and France the silver, while Britain took bronze.

But the same officials, concerned that Germany's Bettina Hoy might have crossed the start line twice on the show jumping course, then docked Germany 14 points, dropping it from first place to fourth with 147.8 points in a decision that lifted the United States to the bronze.

Germany then lodged a protest, an equestrian appeals committee reversed the judges' decision -- and the Germans reclaimed their gold. Once again, France was awarded the silver and Britain the bronze. The United States was left empty-handed.

The appeal submitted by the three countries to CAS challenges whether the equestrian appeal committee had jurisdiction to overturn the judges' decision, Reeb said.

``They claim the basic decision of the ground jury should be confirmed,'' he told The Associated Press.

The CAS panel assigned to hear the case is chaired by South African judge Deon van Zyl of South Africa. The other members are Canada's Richard McLaren and Pandelis Dedes of Greece.

Updated on Friday, Aug 20, 2004 7:51 am EDT
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that this is in the hands of disinterested professional arbitrators, could we leave it to them to sort out? I far as I call tell, none of the folks on this thread were there and saw what happened (or didn't) first hand. Please stop making such cruel accusations without all the facts. If this were simple, it would never have blown up like this. To assume that the officials are biased, ignorant or uninterested in upholding the integrately of this event seems very unfair to me. They are all well known professionals who care about their sport.

It is already probably ruined for Bettina. No matter what happens now these medals are tainted by all this venom. I seriously doubt any of you could or would have handled this better than Bettina. I can't believe how she is being judged by some of you. I doubt she knows exactly what all happened either. I will reserve judgement until this is sorted out.

So much for the Olympic spirit.

SCFarm

jester1113
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:04 AM
Thank you LLDM, for putting words to the bad taste that's been in my mouth over all this.

Janet
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:09 AM
The rules say that they need THREE backup timers at the Olympic games, so I am sure they had them. But once he time has been recorded on the main timer, do they RECORD the backup timers, or do they reset for the next rider without recording it? I hope the former.

radar
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:11 AM
Very true, but if YOU ride through the start markers and the time doesn't start and it's obvious to you, do you risk disqualification or circle and risk time penalties?

M. O'Connor
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:16 AM
&lt;&lt; To assume that the officials are biased, ignorant or uninterested in upholding the integrately of this event seems very unfair to me. They are all well known professionals who care about their sport.&gt;&gt;

At events like these there is a MIX of officials, who may speak different languages, working together for the first time, and, believe it or not, who have VARYING levels of experiece in officiating. Knowing this, it is not at all surprising that there might have been an "issue of doubt" arising after the fact, or that there may have been some misteps taken. It is a fact that in matters of doubt, second guessing is generally NOT productive, as it is more often the case that the original call was correct, even if the reaction time was delayed.

It often takes quite a bit of time for communication from the field to be relayed to the officials closest to the microphone. OR for a thought process to be completed, for research to be done, to make sure the revised call is genuinely correct.

I was present, as a bystander, when this happened during the practice run for the Nations Cup in Wellington last winter--but note that during this practice run the management was lucky enough to have such a situation take place: specifically, that a defect in communication existed that prevented timely information from the field from reaching officials in the tower. Hence a mistaken call was announced that was subsequently corrected. Because it happened in the practice, the communication defect was then able to be corrected in advance of the "real" competetion--it would seem that such circumstances may not have arisen during practice runs in Athens, but the point is that these things do happen, and in the interest of fairness, the entire process needs to be allowed to play out, through to the end...

Mariequi
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:19 AM
I believe that was Aaron, not Paul, the swimmer. I'm glad that was over quickly.

I called Ed Sauer, who was with the results/timers folks in Atlanta, but he wasn't in touch with any of these folks.

I wasn't there and am not qualified to judge Bettina's situation, only saying it's unfortunate and rules must be upheld whatever occurred. And glad it's in the hands of those who are to review it.

Agree - on to Dressage and SJ and let's all hope that there's nothing controversial there. And that all remain well and uninjured.

tle
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Since they could not beat the Germans square and faire, they protest and even if the ground jury admitted that they screwed up. It don't matter the wrong guys won and that can't be.

Smells of lousy looser syndrom. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gnep... gimme a break! What about the lousy winner syndrom of breaking a basic rule and then covering it up in order to keep said medal?? Lousy loosers for wanting the rules upheld? yeah... right. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Very true, but if YOU ride through the start markers and the time doesn't start and it's obvious to you, do you risk disqualification or circle and risk time penalties? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

radar... as a rider it is my job to hear the signal and within 45 seconds followin it, cross the start line and jump my course. My job is NOT to worry about the official timing.

oskaar
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mariequi:
I believe that was Aaron, not Paul, the swimmer. I'm glad that was over quickly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Mariequi, I knew I was going to get that wrong... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kinsella
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:51 AM
What was so impressive about the swimming DQ and reinstatement is that the guy that was set to move up to gold said he would not have accepted the medal because Aaron won it. THAT is called 'class' my friends...

NOTE!! That is not to say that I don't think those involved in the eventing bruhaha don't have class - it's just a statement about the swimming situation.

radar
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:51 AM
No, it's not the riders job to worry about the timing.... it's to get the job done, and to be sure they aren't affected adversely by their circumstances.... what about years ago in the World Cup when the jump crew guy was standing in front of the jump Katie Monahan was three strides away from.... had she pulled up then, would she have incurred a refusal? It is VERY believable that Bettina acted properly given her appraisal of her circumstances. I'm sure that the proper people in their respective positions will sort this out with ALL of the information.... not just what we have within this silly thread...

jester1113
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by radar:
No, it's not the riders job to worry about the timing.... it's to get the job done, and to be sure they aren't affected adversely by their circumstances.... what about years ago in the World Cup when the jump crew guy was standing in front of the jump Katie Monahan was three strides away from.... had she pulled up then, would she have incurred a refusal? It is VERY believable that Bettina acted properly given her appraisal of her circumstances. I'm sure that the proper people in their respective positions will sort this out with ALL of the information.... not just what we have within this silly thread... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What happened? Did she just jump him too or did he hightail it out of there? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Magnolia
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:56 AM
I realize we are making a mountain out of this molehill - clearly Bettina had the best performance of all Olympians and should be proud of her riding.
The emotional comments regarding a german conspiracy and a critique of her skills are out of line, but indicative of some pent up frustration with the whole changing of the format that we perceive puts US, AUS, NZ and GBR at a disadvantage - and too bad it is taken out on some poor rider that appararently got confused due to someone's incompetence.

But she also apparently made a mistake. OK, we all make mistakes, and it would be fine if the jury just said, "hey, we didn't see a mistake - she wins." but they seem to be saying "She made a mistake, but since we made a mistake, we need to forgive her mistake and let her win."
So, essentially they have acknowledged her mistake, but not penalized her, which is adding a confusing and slightly disturbing end to this drama.

Erin
Aug. 20, 2004, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by radar:
Very true, but if YOU ride through the start markers and the time doesn't start and it's obvious to you, do you risk disqualification or circle and risk time penalties? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But what bothers me is that Bettina has SAID (assuming she was quoted accurately) that she had no idea anything was wrong til 15 minutes after her ride. She SAID that she was "near" the start line, saw 35 seconds left on the clock, and circled again.

When she finished, she did not act like a rider who had a major officiating screw-up during her round. She acted like someone who had no idea there was anything irregular going on.

I don't mean to doubt you, radar... you're just passing along what others have said. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's just that this whole situation isn't making any freakin' sense... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Miss Maddie
Aug. 20, 2004, 07:21 AM
I would think that a rider with as much international experience as Bettina would figure that there would be backup timers.

Let's take another scenario, that she went through the flags and straight to the first jump and they really did screw up and hadn't started the timers and messed up her score, I do believe we would all support Bettina since she did what she was expected to do in those circumstances. At least I would. There is no way I would expect her to be responsible for what the timers were doing.

LisaB
Aug. 20, 2004, 07:26 AM
Okay, putting on the hubby's cop hat here (like when he grilled me about that dent in the truck!). If the reports are true that this was her explanation, that was her explanation. She's got conflicting stories. Therefore, she's lying. That is IF these reports are accurate. One thing hubby does is keep asking the same questions over and over. If the person trips up and gives conflicting info, he flusters them up and then the person gives up and tells the truth(or another lie). He keeps going until the story is plausible and accurate and the same.
It doesn't matter if she was German, official was German and the whole German conspiracy thing. The boiling point is we are recieving conflicting excuses and therefore, we all know there's lying going on. IF the reports are accurate(no yellow journalism!)

Janet
Aug. 20, 2004, 07:34 AM
I think a lot of the issue is what Betina ACTUALLY said, as opposed to what she was reported to have said.

I have hear that she saw 35 seconds on the count down
a) BEFORE she unknowingly went though the start flags
b) AS she unknowingly went though the start flags
c) AFTER she unknowingly went though the start flags
(Considering that she didn't know she went through the start flags, she probably isn't sure herself.)

If it is C it is in direct contradiction to what the appeal committe stated, which was that the timers DID start when she unknowingly went though the start flags, and the judge later reset them.

But a, and maybe b ARE consistent with the appeals committe statement, so I suspect that is the most likely case, whether or not that is what she actually said.

But mostly, I am glad this is going to be resolved SATURDAY, rather than taking MONTHS as was originally projected.

ESG
Aug. 20, 2004, 07:44 AM
That would be nice. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I for one am really tired of all the speculation and would like some facts and a decision from the people whose job it is to collect and evaluate the former and render the latter. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Janet
Aug. 20, 2004, 07:59 AM
I have been on, and appeared before, an appeals committee.

They made their decision based on what was presented to them in the process. Not what was stated in/to the press before or after the appeal.

Hopefully the CAS team will have access to the same information (unless the appeal to CAS really is on the very narrow grounds of whether or not the appeals committee had jurisdiction, in which case the actual evidence becomes irellevant).

mademoiselle
Aug. 20, 2004, 08:02 AM
First, it's not her business to check if the timers are working or not. As soon as she hears the buzzer, she has 45 second to cross the start line and jump her 1st fence. That's as simple as that.

If there is anything wrong with the arena (a jumps fells down, the timers are not working or whatever can happen), the the judges will ring the bell, ask her to stop and restart when everything is ready. That's the way it's always done.
Trust me, if something is not going right at the Olympics, the officials will not take any risks, they will react right away and try to not disadvantage any athlete.

So, even if she had a doubt about the timers, till she hears the signal from the judges to stop, she needs to keep going.

Second, if she really had a doubt about the timers, she would probably have looked around and/or stopped with a confused face to understand what is going on. When I watch the tape, I just see a rider who is working with her horse, 100% focusing on her riding.

And to finish, if I ride a course and I think there was a problem with some equipment or management, I will inquire to the TD as soon as I'm done with my course.


So, I really think that Bettina rode very well and deserves her medal, but I also think that she made a stupid mistake (Which I can understant with all the pressure and everything) and that she should penalized for it.

It's horrible way to loose/win the Olympic games, but the rule is the rule and I don't think there should be any exception.

Velvet
Aug. 20, 2004, 08:29 AM
Please see the separate discussion on defining a "Bettina." I think I really need to get this one figured out. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I wouldn't want to use the term incorrectly!

Gnep
Aug. 20, 2004, 08:29 AM
Robby Johnson,

I know, I know stupid me, I still have so much to learn. It is save and good riding if the rider can hardly controll the horse, geting thrown forward every time, beeing exhausted by the strugle and flying throu the course with ease is dangerous riding. Jup know I understand, Pony Club 101 ?

I know, stupid me, have never been Pony Clubing.

Ach I still have so much to learn.

BLBGP
Aug. 20, 2004, 09:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustJump:
&lt;&lt;I would ,at the very least, expect an Olympic Rider to know where the damn flags were. If they don't, too damn bad for them.&gt;&gt;

This about sums it up. I'm wondering where the rumor started that there were "no" backup timers at the OLYMPIC GAMES? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The rumor started through this very official sounding article. I am very glad to hear he was mistaken - the idea of no back-up timers at this (or any!) level baffled my mind.

Here's what was posted on page 16 of this thread:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=20608042754494&ShowArticle_ID=21908043196280

Here is the exerpt:

And what no one mentioned last night is that it was a pretty heads-up move on Hoy’s part to even notice that the clock hadn’t started in the eight or 10 strides between the start and the first fence. What would have happened if she’d jumped the first fence and continued on course, and then the jury had realized that the clock hadn’t started, since there was no one keeping time manually on the field?

arnika
Aug. 20, 2004, 09:14 AM
Ya know Gnep? I don't know anything about you or your experience except that you seem to be male and German. Oh, and rather nasty. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The worst things that were said on this thread were that Bettina had ridden well but made a dumb mistake and gee, that was a shame both for her and the team. That is, until you came in with the personal name calling and rudeness. Not to mention slamming every other rider and horse in one grand generalization.

I can understand being disappointed for your team and even being defensive but you are just too rude for words. Guess I should just stop feeding the trolls now.

Irish Ei's
Aug. 20, 2004, 09:30 AM
Erin..just a side note. I am truly disappointed by those who think that "Pulling a Bettina" is funny, endearing or anything but snippy,catty,nasty,Humiliating and demoralizing. Nothing about this is funny and to be remembered that way is shameful. Ignoring it is the same as condoning it.

Velvet
Aug. 20, 2004, 09:33 AM
Oh, come on. We all have funky "blonde" moments or bad things happen to good people.

I think you need to post a message searching for your sense of humor. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's a way of diffusing some of the anger and heated arguments that were going on out here.

Erin
Aug. 20, 2004, 09:36 AM
Huh? It's shameful to find humor in the situation?

If we were a "real" sport and anyone actually paid attention to us, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif this would be material ripe for Saturday Night Live, Jay Leno, or David Letterman. I'm sorry you're offended, Irish Ei's, but I think you're being REALLY hypersensitive...

ponyjumper4
Aug. 20, 2004, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>1) The call was made in another language (must be made in either French or English, the Olympics languages).
2) THere was too much confusion in the call-- they could not get a good enough camera angle, and decided if they were going to make an error in judgment, they should favor the athlete.
3) Those finishing behind Paul were the first to stand up against the DQ. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the biggest reason they overturned the DQ was because the judge in question's written report and explanation of the DQ did not match his verbal version to the committee he had to present it to. The first reason you listed was correct, but not the second. Also, the 4th place finisher is filed a protest because they felt the only reason it was overturned was because of the technicality on the judge's behalf. Camera angles aren't an issue as far as I've heard. The silver medalist was so supportive because he trains in the States and is a collegiate rival of Piersol's.

Reynard Ridge
Aug. 20, 2004, 09:45 AM
I'd like to go back to BLBGPs comments. I read John S's article and took it as what happened.

If the world has changed dramatically since then (which it seems to have - although I am lost, lost, lost as to what Bettina did or did not do), can John do an update????

At least clarify what has been validated and what has been disavowed since he wrote the article?

And no finger pointing meant here - I'm just looking for clarification.

M. O'Connor
Aug. 20, 2004, 09:49 AM
Re: Official time and backup time

The only instance in which backup time is needed is when something goes wrong with the official timer (whether they are manual or electric).

If nothing goes wrong, the official time is recorded and the backup is discarded (this makes sense, because there can only be one "official" time. The backup time is never discarded until it's confirmed that the official time is "good." If backup is needed, it becomes the official time, and is recorded as such. Sometimes, there is backup to the backup (as when the BOX of timers was distributed at the Atlanta Games. Interestingly, Mr. M didn't take one of these, because he wanted to take pictures. Thus he captured the shot of Uli Kirchoff and Jus de Pomme that was later selected as COTH photo of the year...)

It is possible, btw, for the official clock (the one that sits on the judge's table) to run on while the display scoreboard is not functioning properly. Now, not to say that this isn' the case in Athens, and I'll ask Mr. M later to make sure I'm right about this, but I don't think I have ever seen a case where the scoreboard is considered to be the official clock; there is always a little display with all the on/off switches, etc that sits with the timing judge. A non-functioning scoreboard could mean simply that there is a loose plug somewhere! As a rider, I wouldn't ever depend on the scoreboard after I'd heard the starting tone.

Irish Ei's
Aug. 20, 2004, 09:52 AM
Humour is one thing,but personal labelling of the negative variety is quite another

hoopoe
Aug. 20, 2004, 09:56 AM
True enough.

It will be a long weekend.

M. O'Connor
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:00 AM
PS the backup time does not have to be kept on the field--all the backup timekeeper needs is a clear line of sight to the start and finish. The backup timekeeper can be sitting beside the actual timekeeper in the judge's booth or at the top of the grandstand with a radio.

BybeeGirl
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:02 AM
Can someone clarify for a hunter chick who has done a grand total of 3 stadium rounds in her life, just two questions?

1. Who looks at the timer when they start on course?

2. Why do the penalties incurred during the team phase affect the individual standings? I guess what I'm asking is why do they have to jump again? Why not just let the "individual" standings remain after the close of the team competition?

Thanks!

LLDM
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Huh? It's shameful to find humor in the situation?

If we were a "real" sport and anyone actually paid attention to us, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif this would be material ripe for Saturday Night Live, Jay Leno, or David Letterman. I'm sorry you're offended, Irish Ei's, but I think you're being REALLY hypersensitive... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beg to differ Erin. About polititions, professional athletes, and celebraties, yes. About Olympic athletes in a bad situation, I don't think so. I'm sure many people find this distasteful. I think people here might find it distasteful too, if it was one of our own.

SCFarm

Erin
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:04 AM
Each individual rider's faults from the team competition were carried over. So the individual medals were determined by dressage, XC, show jumping round 1 and 2 added together.

Janet
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BybeeGirl:
Can someone clarify for a hunter chick who has done a grand total of 3 stadium rounds in her life, just two questions?

1. Who looks at the timer when they start on course?

2. Why do the penalties incurred during the team phase affect the individual standings? I guess what I'm asking is why do they have to jump again? Why not just let the "individual" standings remain after the close of the team competition?

Thanks! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> to answer 2. Becuase the IOC has been ABSOLUTELY ADAMANT that they WILL NOT award two medals (team and individual) for the same performance.

Weatherford
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:13 AM
Right, Janet - SO, that, Of course, begs the question of WHY THE SCORES HAD TO CARRY OVER!!!???!!!

It was SOOOO much easier (and fairer to the horses) when it was all one score - each country DECLARED their team ahead of time, and everyone rode as individuals as well... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Edjeets!! Also true in some of the other sports (gymnastics, I believe...)

radar
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:21 AM
regarding Katie.... she yelled at him and basically jumped him!!!

Magnolia
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> . Who looks at the timer when they start on course? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you get out there, a buzzer goes off indicating you have 45 seconds to get through the timers (the start line)to begin your course without incurring time penalties. It is, in essence, a 45 second warm up where you can canter around, get composed, relax or do whatever you want EXCEPT cross that start line. Once you cross that start line, you forfeit any of that 45 seconds that was left. So, If I canter around for 15 seconds and then canter over that start line, I lose the remaining 30 seconds - they are now timing my course.

One would look at that clock to see if they had time left to continue their warm up period - ie, do I have time for another circle, a transition or two, or what not.

It seems like most people hear the buzzer, canter a circle and go on and begin their course by crossing the timer. But it is also OK to do 2 or 3 circles, provided you hadn't crossed the start line and could get over that start line by the time that 45 seconds were up.

So, there is a very valid reason for looking at the clock prior to starting your course.

Ellie K
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:34 AM
I admit I still haven't read all the early pages of this (I do have a job, after all http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) so maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake, but I did not get the sense at all that anyone was being nasty with the 'Bettina' jokes. I am not much of a nationalist so I don't really care which country wins, just that the best solution is found and that the legacy of the incident is better sport (and I do think that will be the ultimate result). I do acknowledge that medals mean a lot more than just national pride, and they are one of the few ways we have to get 'on the radar' of the public in this country. So yes, we all have some degree of self-interest in the results, but I don't feel like the majority of comments I have been reading here reflect blind nationalism or sour grapes. People really just seem to want to understand it and make sense of it. And I have not been posting here for very long, but have been really impressed with the knowledge of some of the people posting and I have learned a lot and appreciate their insights. I personally don't feel I know enough to form a credible opinion on the matter and so I will continue to read everything, consider both sides, and also see the humor that others see, even if I ultimately might end up disagreeing with their position.

I don't agree that this is a "mountain out of a molehill" type situation, but I will find the humor in just about anything. I think the situation is a major blow to the FEI's credibility within the IOC and that is what concerns me the most. But I feel that positive things will come out of it and we will have a better and more fair sport in the future because of it.

One recent poster lambasted people in this thread for even continuing to discuss the matter for so many pages. I think that if people do not feel a discussion is warranted, they are of course free not to participate.

Janet
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:50 AM
I still want to know what, if anything, is going to happen to the @#$%&^% judge that messed up.

Velvet
Aug. 20, 2004, 10:58 AM
Wow, I can't get over the fact that a few people are getting bent about coining a new term out here just to add some levity.

It's not like Bettina is dying on an operating table or has an incurable disease. She had a mistake that is a rule breaker and considered by some to be worthy of medal striping and by others to be negligible and not worth the controversy.

Nothing wrong with it. Many people have similar moments and mistakes.

Sheesh. I wouldn't mind it if others out here started saying the "made a Velvet." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Oh, wait, some of them already do--and not in a good way! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

M. O'Connor
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:05 AM
Have confirmed that the official clock is NOT the display--and that the display can differ from the actual clock for any number of reasons.

If a rider feels that there is anything amiss on the course (rail down, etc), they could elect to pull up and bring the problem to the attention of the officials, at which point the question of whether they would be entitled to a restart can be debated.

tle
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:06 AM
I agree... I think Irish Eis is way too sensitive about this.

Were you just as "offended" when I and my friends would call getting lost on course "pulling a david (o'Connor)?" or is it just because he could fix his mistake within the rules of the sport and Bettina's mistake SHOULD cost her the medal?

Ellie K
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:21 AM
excellent point tle, I was going to mention the 'pulling a David' phenomenon. I think people would still be making that joke whether or not he had won the medal. Although I am sure it would be much less funny to him if he had not managed to correct the error!

Also an important note for the IOC, am I correct in remembering that David became aware of his impending mistake from the reaction of the large CROWD attending the equestrian events? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Duramax
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Irish Ei's:
Erin..just a side note. I am truly disappointed by those who think that "Pulling a Bettina" is funny, endearing or anything but snippy,catty,nasty,Humiliating and demoralizing. Nothing about this is funny and to be remembered that way is shameful. Ignoring it is the same as condoning it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh come on Irish Ei's. Surely you know that eventers have a sense of humor! This is how we're choosing to deal with this, since we have all had one of these moments (and if you haven't you can best-damn-gurantee you will at some point in the near future!!)! We can relate.

Wanna hear my Bettina's? (you probably don't but I'm gonna tell them anyway! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) Making half of a circle instead of a whole circle in my dressage test b/c I couldn't remember if I had started it at E or at B! Then there was the time that I heard the dressage judge ring the bell to signal me to start my test, so I trotted in, X-halt-salute... only to find that the judge was still looking down at her paperwork. I really wasn't quite sure what to do- so I just stood there not sure what to do as I didn't want to leave the ring b/c that could eliminate me if she really had rung the bell- but I also didn't want to be caught red-handed standing at X if she hadn't rung the bell.... what's a girl to do? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Finally the judge looked up, and told me to go out and re-enter as she had just discovered a mix-up with the tests right after she had rung my bell.

I don't think any of us mean any harm by the coining of this new term... if anything we're admitting that we can relate b/c we fully understand the feeling! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Erin
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:27 AM
And has everyone forgotten that David's brother, announcer Brian O'Connor, ribbed him mercilessly at whatever the next horse trials was after Sydney (Morven?)... and I seem to remember there were signs saying: "David... THIS WAY!" around show jumping? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gnep
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:35 AM
If she actualy made a mistake, than why are GB, US and France not questioning the mistake in their complaint.
Why are they questioning that the Jury had the right to change the result back.

Arnika I am male and I am German, event since 40 years, I have forgoten my dressage tests, forgot where the next jump in stadium was, had my DQs in X-C, made plenty of stupid mistakes.
I did my Klimke and my O'Conners

Janet
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gnep:
If she actualy made a mistake, than why are GB, US and France not questioning the mistake in their complaint.
Why are they questioning that the Jury had the right to change the result back.

Arnika I am male and I am German, event since 40 years, I have forgoten my dressage tests, forgot where the next jump in stadium was, had my DQs in X-C, made plenty of stupid mistakes.
I did my Klimke and my O'Conners <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> On the contrary, they are questioning whether the APPEALS COMMITTE had the right to overturn the GROUND JURY, when the ground jury amended the results.

As to why they are appealing the jurisdiction rather than the facts, or the correctness of the interpretation of the facts - probably becuase there is a tightly defined list of WHAT you can take to the CAS and what you can't. My guess is that "jurisdiction" is on that list, but "facts" or "interpretation" are not. Portia would probably know.

What is a Klimke?

frugalannie
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:46 AM
I'm just guessing here, Gnep, and I haven't seen the text of the France/Great Britain/USA complaint (though I'd love to if anyone has it), but the protocol probably says that they can only stand in support of a decision already made, not start the discussion over de novo.

Can you tell I've been dying to use that phrase?

Whoops! Janet and I posted at the same time, and her explanation is much more cogent than mine. But she didn't use de novo so I have left my post in. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Velvet
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:49 AM
In my book "a Klimke" would be the ride of your life! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I'm not sure how others out here are interpreting it.

Janet
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Velvet:
In my book "a Klimke" would be the ride of your life! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I'm not sure how others out here are interpreting it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unless it is falling off between fences, remounting, and still making time.

Velvet
Aug. 20, 2004, 11:59 AM
I'm thinking of Reiner...not Ingrid. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Equibrit
Aug. 20, 2004, 12:06 PM
Velvet - I think you'll find this has been going on for centuries in one form or another!



Englishman: "It’s terrible the way the word imperialism is branded around nowadays."

Frenchman: "Why's that?"

Englishman: "Because it cheapens the shame we should be feeling about our imperialist past."

Frenchman: "You’re right there, especially for us French."

Englishman: (SURPRISED) "Especially for you French?"

Frenchman: "Well, you know, because of the size of our Empire."

Englishman: "Excuse me? The size of your Empire? What do you mean by that?"

Frenchman: "I thought it was obvious. The bigger nature of our Empire means that we should feel more shame. Not that its matters"

Englishman: "Oh, of course not. (PAUSE) But our Empire was much, much, larger that yours. Not that it matters."

Frenchman: "Of course it doesn’t matter. But you’re wrong. The French Empire was huge."

Englishman: "Yes, but the British Empire was the biggest the world has ever known! It stretched right around the globe! The sun never set on it! Not that we should be proud of it or anything."

Frenchman: "Oh, no. We shouldn’t be proud of it. But if we were to be proud of our Empires then we would have to be more proud than you. The French Empire covered almost the entire of North Africa after all."

Englishman: "North Africa? Who wants North bloody Africa? We had India, Canada, Australia, South Africa, Ireland, Rhodesian…"

Frenchman: "America."

Englishman: "Yeah, well, every empire makes a mistake. America was ours."

Frenchman: "Britain was Rome's."

Englishman: "Russia was Napoleon's."

German: "The German Empire never made any mistakes."

Frenchman: "The German Empire was one huge mistake."

German: "That’s not true."

Frenchman: "Yes, it is."

Englishman: "What about the two World Wars?"

German: "What is it with you English and those damn World Wars."

Englishman: "Hey, we’re not the ones who started them."

German: "You’re not going to do the Fawlty Towers routine, are you?"

Englishman: "...Maybe."

German: "Oh, God, please don’t. It’s such a cliché."

Frenchman: "Yeah, he’s right about that."

Englishman: "Hey, you better be careful or I’ll do some ‘Allo ‘Allo."

German: "Why do the English need foreign stereotypes to make jokes? Is that all the famous British sense of humour is?"

Englishman: "That and irony."

German: "What is irony?"

Englishman: "You’re German, you wouldn’t understand."

German: "Why wouldn’t I understand? I’m sure if you give me an example of irony I would be able to get it."

Englishman: "I just did."

German: "Huh?"

Frenchman: "Okay, an example of irony would be when George W. Bush said major conflict had ended in Iraq."

Englishman: "Trust the French to resort to America-bashing."

Frenchman: "It’s not America-bashing. It’s the truth."

Englishman: "Yeah, sure, and France is still a great nation."

Frenchman: "We are!"

German: "My English friend is right. Germany overtook you long ago."

Frenchman: "That’s not true! France is still great! Viva la France!"

Englishman: "Shouting viva la France is like a former mining town in the north of England, completely redundant."

German: "Kind of like God save the Queen."

Englishman: "Hey!"

Frenchman: "Yeah. You got to admit that’s pretty stupid."

German: "Very stupid."

Frenchman: "Monarchs are just relics of our shameful past. Our really, very, extremely shameful past. We got rid of ours a long time ago and embraced a little something called democracy."

German: "As did we."

Englishman: "I can’t believe a Frenchman and a German are lecturing an Englishman on democracy. We invented it, for Pete’s sake!"

Frenchman: "I thought the Greeks did."

Englishman: "Okay, we invented modern democracy then."

German: "I thought the Swiss did that."

Englishman: "The Swiss? In their long history all they have invented is the bloody cuckoo clock! A completely useless invention everyone says they like but would never dream of actually buying. No, we invented modern democracy, not them."

Frenchman: "And look what you have done with it?"

Englishman: "What we have done with it? Are you forgetting about a little matter called the French revolution? That was a nice exercise in democracy, wasn’t it? Overthrow a dictatorship, cut a load of people’s heads off and then establish another dictatorship. Only the French could call that democracy."

Frenchman: "Yeah, well, at least we don’t have an inherently undemocratic electoral system, a disgracefully undemocratic upper house and a completely undemocratic head of state!"

German: "Guys! Guys! I think there is at least something we can all agree on."

Englishman: "What?"

German: "We’re all better than those damn Americans."

Frenchman: "Yeah, he's right, you know."

Englishman: "Uh-huh. Big bunch of arrogant gits, that’s what they are."

Frenchman: "Yep, all they do all day is talk about how great they are."

German: "And how bad everyone else is."

Englishman: "Yeah, they need to be more like us."

Weatherford
Aug. 20, 2004, 12:17 PM
ROTFLOL!!!

THANK YOU!!!!

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Ja Da Dee
Aug. 20, 2004, 12:26 PM
OMG, that was way too funny! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lovetheduns
Aug. 20, 2004, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson
You have a lot to learn. That is not "good" in eventing standards. That is careless and dangerous riding. Had the course been up to snuff there is no way she would've pulled that one off. Also, had the course been up to snuff there is no way Hoy would've pulled it off either. God bless that horse she is sitting on for doing his job, because in my book flopping around and growling and holding onto the reins, as she did, doesn't equate to a strategic, tactful cross-country ride. A trickier course would've weeded her out early on.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for saying this Robby thank you thank you thank you. I have gone and looked through her past wins.. and her past not so wins.. and give me a break if this event was up to snuff no way in hell she would have won the gold medal. I think people have politely skirted that fact. Look at her past results. Heck even look at her biography for Badminton... there is no way as a true 3 day event rider she compares to the likes of Severson, Funnell, etc.

Not to say I could even come close to comparing to her as a rider, but the fact remains is that this event heavily favored a different type of a horse and a different type of rider.

Edited to correct my grammar as well as add the last paragraph hit post now too soon.

Ellie K
Aug. 20, 2004, 12:32 PM
I think frugalannie and Janet are correct.

Otherwise you could go to the arbitration body after the event and say, so-and-so violated a rule and I have it on tape and the GJ didn't catch it, so I think I should have gotten the gold medal instead of that [insert objectionable nationality] b*%&#. If this were the case, the CAS would be arbitrating just about every sporting event in the world!!

Now, has anyone read USEF's 8/19 press release on the matter? Because I think it is all garbled up in terms of the whole GJ/appeals process. They made it sound like it was the same officials making a decision and then reversing their own decision. As if any more confusion is needed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Weatherford
Aug. 20, 2004, 12:35 PM
Ah. but her HORSE CERTAINLY deserves it! And she got the horse there...

There are MANY examples of Championship level winners who "did not deserve it" - so let's not go there (even though, in some ways, I do agree...) What about the World Championships in SJ the year Gail Grenough won? There are those who say "she didn't deserve it" that she is not the rider that the other competitors are and that she was lucky to follow Conrad in the draw as he schooled the horses for her (this is the final four switch horses format) - SO WHAT???!!!! She was the BEST on that day, under those conditions, in that format - agree with the final result or not - it is what it is!

Ditto Bettina - she was the best in the world this week (and as I have said a number of times, having seen her go both on TV and in person, Cockatoo is a once-in-a-lifetime horse who IS the best in the world) and whatever the mistake was or whosever fault it was, well, at this point - I think it is a moot argument, and we should just live with it!

Of course, they could always just give two sets of Gold and end the fighting...

Now, WHO would I really like to see on Cockatoo??? hmmmm... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LLDM
Aug. 20, 2004, 12:36 PM
EquiBrit - That just might be the one post we can all agree on! Thanks, this thread really needed that. Although it seems not everyone "got it".

Irony http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

SCFarm

lovetheduns
Aug. 20, 2004, 12:45 PM
Now, WHO would I really like to see on Cockatoo??? hmmmm... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Do you have to choose just one?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yes she was the best in the world for this week... I think what saddens me is the dumbing down of the sport. Now-- for me--- the dumbing down is rather moot because no way in hell I could be up there jumping-- but it is the thing of fantasies!

And I am not saying she did not "deserve" it, but that in this particular event the only way she did win it was because it was dumbed down from what true 3 day eventing is. I can not help but think other sports folks would feel the same way if their sport had been neutered for the Olympics.

Equibrit
Aug. 20, 2004, 12:48 PM
Another thought

Heaven is the place where the police are British, the chefs French, the mechanics German, the lovers Italian and all under the organization of the Swiss.
Hell is the place where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss, the police German, and all under the organization of the Italians.

Dezi
Aug. 20, 2004, 12:58 PM
Equibrit - are these yours?? If so you need to be writing for Leno and Letterman!!

ROTFLMAO!!!

Gnep
Aug. 20, 2004, 01:00 PM
Janet,

A Klimke is a hasty turn after a jump and you fall on your ass.

Equibrit
Aug. 20, 2004, 01:05 PM
These jokes are all standard British issue!

alexandra
Aug. 20, 2004, 01:18 PM
I ould not go through all the 25 pages, but it is not over yet. Ingrid Klimke was quoted somewhere as I am not handing that gold medl back I will send it already home with my horse.
I always felt the 3day eventing is such a great sport. Fair and tall the riders competing are like a fmaily, Now this issue changed my mind. I know a medal or not is maybe a big think commercially. I know that it is difficult to decide. I have never heard of the rule that it is not allowed to cross the starting line twice. I always thught that the judge would switch the clock on shortly before one crosses the line and they can tell from the way how you canter that you are about to start. But actually I never really thought about it.
Poor bettina. She is dedicated and nice and she rode the best round in her life sofar. I just hope that they do not remove the icing of the cake for that.
Oh does anybody remember Ulla Salzgeber in Australia ? Her freestyle-Music suddenly stopped. She was allowed to start again. That was a very fair decision and everybody accepted it. Why is it no possible for the sake of the riding itself for the other nations not to complain ?

sophie
Aug. 20, 2004, 01:24 PM
Equibrit,

Thank you for those hilarious tidbits!!
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

alexandra
Aug. 20, 2004, 01:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gnep:


Ach I still have so much to learn.

Irrsin hat keine Grenzen
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ähem Gnep, I think you already learned so much american you forgot your german... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

You see what I mean ??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

asterix
Aug. 20, 2004, 02:39 PM
Gosh, I am really excited, because as a lower-level eventer with just a few seasons under my belt, I see I have nearly achieved the Triple Crown of eventing...
A David (except in my case, I did it properly, and never found that missing fence http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif)...
A Klimke (again, I improved on the original by falling off just randomly in the middle of a field, nowhere near any fences of any sort, getting back on, and making time. um. at BN. But still!)

Now I just have to work on getting a Bettina, and I will be ready to play with the serious eventers.

Velvet
Aug. 20, 2004, 02:42 PM
I like the swimming last night. The swimmers were going to decide it right then and there. I'm betting they would have gotten on the stand in the order they thought appropriate and would have told the officials where to go. They knew what was right and just.

I think the people involved know as well, and they should be the ones deciding if it was a rule broken or something that they felt was just stealing a medal from someone. The Olympics is SUPPOSED to be the ultimate in sportsmanship, isn't it?