Post Your Conformation Pictures - NOW SHOWING: FreeForAll! ;) pg 13 [Archive]

mcmIV

Jul. 30, 2003, 12:52 PM

**EDIT!**
Per an excellent suggestion by Impromtu - I am putting the CURRENT HORSE FOR EVALUATION in the topic. Please notice that we are doing ONE at a time, and then moving onto a new one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
*******
I'm at it again! Remember the Post Your Feet PIctures thread? Well - lately I've been browsing CANTER sites and stuff, looking for a possible new horse and its very hard to see conformation on some of these scrawny TB's.

But it's there - it's all about how the bones go together, where stuff attaches, and how it relates to the whole body.

So can we use this thread to educate ourselves on what to look for in a well-built sport horse?

I want to know what a weak hind-end really looks like and why. Things like that - things that get mentioned all around the boards on those "critque this horse" threads, but aren't strictly for educational value.

I would love to put up a picture of some well-liked stallion/horse in order to critique a "nice" animal, but I don't want to offend anyone - and since I don't happen to own a famous stallion sporthorse, I will use Java. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

This picture was taken this summer in the backyard. He was stopped from a big trot to stare at something interesting. I think he is leaning foward more than normal in anticipation - but otherwise, this is basically him.

His head appears abnormally large also - which isn't right. I lightened it up to see his body as well as possible - so it be washed out.

Neck/ShoulderI feel like his neck is too short, but ties on "ok". Could be higher.

His shoulder is perhaps a bit straight(?) but I can tell you his shoulder blade is excessively long - per the saddle fitter. Should an ideal shoulder slope more?

Front LimbsHard to see his pasterns (whose idea was it to post this picture?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) but I can tell you they are prett good - not too short/long or steep/vertical.

His knees/legs are straight, he has good bone and not too long of a canon bone. Anyone have further input on a quality front end? More things to look for?

Rear End
I wish he had his leg under him in a normal spot. Cause this is where I'm weak. What is a strong butt/hind limb? He is big-butted, but is it powerful? I know about the triangle - but I want more clarification.

I don't think he is sickle hocked and he isn't cow hocked, actually. But I always feel like his gaskin is underdeveloped for his size. It might not be obvious in the picture and I might be totally paranoid.

Overall
He isn't obviously built "downhill", but he is just enough that he travels primarly on his forehand and struggles to use his hind end. I think he is very attractive at first glance, BUT knowing that his slight downhill tendancy affects his athleticism so dramatically is eye opening when I see other horses.

I am not seekin critism about Java in particular - I am simply using this picture to start off our education! So don't go making this personal for me and him - although feel free to nitpick him in a detached manner for education purposes! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(I am feeling a tad bid emotional over him do to possibility finding him a new home as a flat horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif So comments like "why would you consider buying a horse like him in the first place?" wouldn't go over well right now)

So get to it! Let's see how long it takes to get to 10,000 views! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Draw on the pictures with lines - make this valuable like the feet thread!

Oh and post some obvious flaws if you wouldn't mind! Show some good examples of bench knees, sickle hocks, roach backs, low necks, long backs, etc.

Plus, of course, we MOST need to see GOOD examples to educate our eye for a good horse.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 05, 2003 at 10:13 PM.]

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 07, 2003 at 10:52 PM.]

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 09, 2003 at 11:19 PM.]

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 12, 2003 at 11:23 AM.]

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 14, 2003 at 11:01 PM.]

mcmIV

Jul. 30, 2003, 12:52 PM

jester1113

Jul. 30, 2003, 01:16 PM

Neat!

One thing I def. don't have an eye for are straight hind legs. Two people told me my New Guy's hind legs were a little straight, and I still don't see it. I have a conformation book that's nothing but pictures, studied them carefully, and I still can't see it...

I'm going to hold off posting any pics until he gains 150-200 pounds, he's a real skinny minny.

Do I dare disturb the universe?

mcmIV

Jul. 30, 2003, 01:21 PM

I've been seeing a lot of TB's on CANTER for instance that seem to be weak in the stifle/hind area - but I can't tell if they're weak (which is probably as common as not) or if they're developed strangely and structurally strong.

I require some discussion on this! Some more pictures, commentary, etc.! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

Tucked_Away

Jul. 30, 2003, 01:57 PM

I don't have a conformation shot of the boy, alas...plenty to pick apart there. But if anyone can explain/illustrate what makes a good shoulder, it would make me very happy indeed.

rhymeswithfizz

Jul. 30, 2003, 02:07 PM

I am highly ignorant of this conformation stuff, but these pictures might make interesting discussion. This is Gabe, now a 3 yo TB, about 16.2 (today anyway). It might be fun to compare his 2 yo picture to a picture about one year later.

Gabe age 2 years 4 months (http://theamazingliz.hypermart.net/images/gabeandliz.jpg)

Gabe at age 3 years one month (http://theamazingliz.hypermart.net/images/gabe-conf.JPG)

I'd love to hear what you all think! He hasn't done much yet, but I have found that he is not a very big mover. He would much prefer to be short and choppy at the trot, though he will allow me to slow him down and make him springier and get a nice trot out of him. Could this be due to the slight straighness in his shoulder, I guess? He isn't far enough along for me to be making him use his butt yet, so that may be part of it too. His canter and walk are to DIE for though, long and lovely. He is a tad clubby on his right front and left hind, though it doesn't show up well in the pictures.

He is going through a growth spurt and looks different every day now... I'll have to take more pictures this month and compare!

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

subk

Jul. 30, 2003, 02:26 PM

Martha, great idea! I've got a picture of Simon from March after 3 months of stall rest and a total of 5+ months from his last horse trails. I'll take one tomorrow of him as he's back to work and legged up. Should be a good comparison of the difference fitness can make in your first impressions of confirmation.

I'll post the March picture now since I need to learn how! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

slb

Jul. 30, 2003, 02:42 PM

Martha....you just make my day http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I'm not as good at conformation as I am at feet, but I would love to participate. I haven't had time to read the thread yet....but can't wait. I'll look around for some good and bad pics.

P.S. Should we do a conformation clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

subk

Jul. 30, 2003, 02:43 PM

gee...that wasn't so hard...

FYI--Simon's an 11 years old, TB, event horse. For the most part I think he gets pretty good marks. He looks a bit down hill here but that might be the footing--I'll use concrete tomorrow.

I think what I like best overall is that his body fits nicely into a visuallized perfect square with the front legs coming into the body at the mid point of the square. That type a symetry, at least to my eye, makes for a good basis of proportion.

I wouldn't say he's got a fabulous shoulder--could be just a bit more sloping--but I like the long shoulder, short pt. of s. to elbow, long forearm, short cannon, long pastern.

He's a good example of a short backed, short coupled horse. With his head turned you don't see that he's a wee short necked as well.

When riding this horse has a nice sized stride and is very easily adjustable, and easy to package--qualities I think you can atribute to his build. He is also easy to keep in front of your leg which I attribute to an uphill build (which is not obvious in this photo.)

GotSpots

Jul. 30, 2003, 03:11 PM

This is only my impression based solely on these two photographs, so please take it with a grain of salt. It's hard to fully see a photograph, and in any case, lots of horses that aren't put together properly can turn out wonderfully. These are just the conformation points which jump out at me on these horses: no bashing or unpleasantness intended.

I am struck by how short coupled Simon is: compare the length and proportion between the withers and the point of his hip with the same on Java. Gabe's picture is alittle hard to tell -- although he looks quite short there, I wonder if he's curving his body a touch so that he faces the canter and might actually be a little bit longer than Simon, though shorter than Java.

I'd like to see a more set up picture of Java's hind legs -- they are hard to evaluate like that. They look a touch camped out there -- which makes me think immediately of the stifle issues you said you'd had with him, but again, it's just one picture and he could be standing awkwardly. Simon's hind legs are a little easier to evaluate: drop a straight line from his butt right down the back of the hind legs to the ground. Can't see the hind pasterns, but the angles appear to be there. Too dark to tell on Gabe.

I'd like to see a picture with both Gabe's and Simon's heads not turned towards the camera, but I would guess that Gabe has a lovely, typey, TB neck. Java's shoulder is long and powerful looking, the other two are harder to evaluate.

This reminds me of the old conformation critique in Practical Horseman. I should look for a photo of the Spotted One to demonstrate all the things a horse should not have conformationally (and to prove that sometimes the key factor is what's between the ears and in the heart).

subk

Jul. 30, 2003, 03:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tucked_Away:
But if anyone can explain/illustrate what makes a good shoulder, it would make me very happy indeed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

T.A. I think the two major points to look for in a shoulder is it's angle compared to a 45 degree and its length from wither to the point of the shoulder.

More sloping i.e. torward the horizontal as opposed to upright or vertical is better. I think the concept is the more sloping the shoulder the easier for the horse to stride out as well as lift for jumping. Horses with straighter shoulder are supposedly more jarring to ride.

Therory and real life sometimes don't mesh, so take everything with a grain of salt.

Impromptu

Jul. 30, 2003, 05:18 PM

I love this thread! Mostly because I know nothing about conformation, and because I get to look at everyones purty horses!

Things I would change about Nona:
Her neck. As I am an eventer, I would like to see it come out of her shoulder a little higher, but as she wants to be a hunter, it's not that bad.

Her feet. She has the most awful feet I have ever seen, the are a little hard to explain, so I will take pictures of them soon.
I would also like her to be built a little more uphill.

Nona (http://community.webshots.com/photo/56531103/56540496Ruoppp)

**********************************
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Be cheerful. Strive to be happy. ~~Max Ehrmann.
**********************************

http://community.webshots.com/user/stainlesssteal ~ My babys!
http://community.webshots.com/user/undersuspicion ~ Devon 2003

mcmIV

Jul. 30, 2003, 06:01 PM

OK! I used Simon because he standing a little more square than the others and its a great picture.

I drew lines - and if I drew them incorrectly tell me! This is based on what I remember from my PC days. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think the square is supposed to contain the horse from the point of shoulder, over the withers/croup down to the feet. In any case, Simon does indeed almost fit precisely in the ideal square.

He definately seems built downhill, but like you say maybe he is standing funny. If he is truly a little downhill, obviously he is able to compensate with other features to carry himself effectively and off his front end. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I drew a triangle on his butt. I thik it's supposed to be equalateral? All Angles the same? Or are all lines supposed to be the same legnth? If I recall, a longer line from stifle to butt gives them more leverage and more push.... or something like that.

Anyway, my triangle is probably not the same angles, but the BLUE lines are identical legnths, the white indicate where the lines are longer than the stifle/hip. That might be good? Lets discuss that.

I wrote a quesiton on the picture for clarification of placement.

I also did get the exact angle of 45dgrs on there for the shoulder and I estimate his real angle is more like 37, if you follow the indent of his shoulderblade. But that isn't always exactly the shoulder itself... but it's a good estimate. I think he has a pretty decent shoulder.

Simon is a handsome fellow! What does he compete at? Don't you take him prelim+?

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

mcmIV

Jul. 30, 2003, 06:08 PM

A second question -

Does the rear canon bone always come straight down perpendicular to the ground from the hock?

So many horses have an angle to the ground in the rear canon, but I think many horses are a little sickle hocked and we are acoustomed to it.

I PUT A PIC of java with a square - see how much longer he is than Simon. Java strikes me as "short backed" as an impression, but he isn't - interesting to note.

I couldn't really do the butt thing, his position is too distorted.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Jul. 30, 2003 at 10:25 PM.]

wanderlust

Jul. 30, 2003, 07:24 PM

Okay, I want to play. This is a picture of my TB filly at 2 and a half. She is obviously in the middle of a growth spurt, with bum higher than withers, and you can't see her neck because the way her head is turned- at this point it was a bit short and low set. As she has grown, it has improved dramatically.

She's starting to even up (I'll try to get some more recent pics in the near future), and at 3 and 4 months is a HUGE mover. Enormous, suspended trot and a 14+ ft canter stride.

Go ahead, critique away. I know what I think, would love to hear what others think.

the silly filly (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/jeannebean96/vwp?.dir=/Torie&.dnm=TorieRV4edit.jpg)

[This message was edited by Master Tally on Jul. 31, 2003 at 04:14 PM.]

Lookout

Jul. 30, 2003, 07:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:

I also did get the exact angle of 45dgrs on there for the shoulder and I estimate his real angle is more like 37, if you follow the indent of his shoulderblade.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Martha, could you measure the angle of the pastern to compare it with the shoulder angle? I guess the RF would be the one to do since he's standing straighter on it.

CatchMeIfUCan

Jul. 30, 2003, 08:01 PM

I'll play...I love conformation critique's and getting my horses critiqued! I have a picture of an obvious fault...

Toe Out (http://community.webshots.com/photo/73721174/74093710ImYMQH)

This is a picture of my 3 year old OTTB. He looks so different now (those are his legs above). I think he has a good build for an eventer. Shorter back, nice round muscular hind end, good shoulder. He is an excellent mover, good hind end engagment and nice shoulder movement. He needs some more muscling on the top of his neck (not to obvious in the picture, but I do know he does!). He's front right hoof does look sort of funny (it isn't clubby) but it looks different in person. Critique away (constructive critiques!)!!

Catch Me If U Can (http://community.webshots.com/photo/73721174/73722179PYegQz)

*~Isabel~*
"Here's one little girl who'd rather clean a stall then her own room."
http://community.webshots.com/user/icecream831

maudeflanders

Jul. 30, 2003, 10:24 PM

Great thread, Martha! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Another resource would be those old Practical Horseman's when they did Conformation Clinic right behind Jumping Clinic. When did they stop running that? Circa 1996?

I'm a horsie packrat, so I still have all my back issues around here somewhere...

Bugs-n-Frodo

Jul. 31, 2003, 03:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Is n' Stormy:
I'll play...I love conformation critique's and getting my horses critiqued! I have a picture of an obvious fault...

http://community.webshots.com/photo/73721174/74093710ImYMQH

This is a picture of my 3 year old OTTB. He looks so different now (those are his legs above). I think he has a good build for an eventer. Shorter back, nice round muscular hind end, good shoulder. He is an excellent mover, good hind end engagment and nice shoulder movement. He needs some more muscling on the top of his neck (not to obvious in the picture, but I do know he does!). He's front right hoof does look sort of funny (it isn't clubby) but it looks different in person. Critique away (constructive critiques!)!!

http://community.webshots.com/photo/73721174/73722179PYegQz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like him, I think he could use some more length in his neck, but, other than what you have already said, he looks good. He is going to look great when you get him muscled up. I love Sabino TBs! I own one, have fun scrubbing all of that white for shows! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

~Amy, Bugs and Frodo~

Bugs-n-Frodo

Jul. 31, 2003, 03:55 AM

Mster Tally, your link did not work for me... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~Amy, Bugs and Frodo~

EvntRydr

Jul. 31, 2003, 04:48 AM

Oooo Ooooo OOOOOOoooo Wish and I want to play! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Some very nice horses up here right now. WOW is Java BLACK or what? BEAAAUUUTIFUL! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I have compiled a collage (http://tb-trainer.com/Web/comp.jpg). Summer 2000 was the image I saw when I found him on the internet. Summer 2002 he is in light to moderate work and underweight (although it's hard to tell) by about 50-100lbs. Summer 2003 he is in regular (6 days) of work and is very fit and in excellent weight.

When I saw his picture I really disliked his straight angles (hind legs, pastern, shoulder). His butt also seemed a little smallish. I was also unhappy with the way his neck looked in comparison to the rest of him. His head didn't do much for me either. I loved his gorgeous deep barrel and topline.

So why did I even go look at him? I have no idea but I will tell you that I knew I wanted him even w/all the things I didn't like about his picture. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So let me know what you guys think. I would love to hear it (now be nice)! I will post pics of the 2 y.o. in a bit.

Proud owner of Wishes
And Secrets Kept
Both direct decendant of Man O' War - "the mostest hoss"!
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wanderlust

Jul. 31, 2003, 07:29 AM

Sorry guys, try this one...

Torie (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/jeannebean96/vwp?.dir=/Torie&.dnm=TorieRV4edit.jpg)

Janet

Jul. 31, 2003, 07:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by maudeflanders:
Great thread, Martha! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Another resource would be those old Practical Horseman's when they did Conformation Clinic right behind Jumping Clinic. When did they stop running that? Circa 1996?

I'm a horsie packrat, so I still have all my back issues around here somewhere...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That was Deb Bennett. I think she has several books out on conformation too.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

vineyridge

Jul. 31, 2003, 07:51 AM

Here is a link to Dr. Bennett's website.
Equine Studies Institute (http://www.equinestudies.org/conformation.htm)
She has many books and several videos available.

Thread killer Extraordinaire

mcmIV

Jul. 31, 2003, 08:26 AM

Thats a GREAT link... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You might have killed the thread!

I'll look at more pictures tonite posted. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

MsDuch

Jul. 31, 2003, 10:27 AM

Ooh, I'll play. I don't know a thing about conformation, but will post my mare's picture. She's a 15 yo ottb, 15.1 or .2 (haven't ever sticked her).

This photo is the best one I have for conformation analysis. It is June 2002, when I'd just come home from living overseas. She was leased out, then was recovering from a suspensory strain. Hence she's pretty scrawny.

Duchess Conf 2002 (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/sarahbj100/vwp?.dir=/Duchess/June+2002&.src=ph&.dnm=D_2002_fullbody.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/sarahbj100/lst%3f%26.dir=/Duchess/June%2b2002%26.src=ph%26.view=t)

Not good for conf analysis, but in her defense, here's another after almost a year of work and high fat diet (yeah sunnie flax). Duch April 03 (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/sarahbj100/vwp?.dir=/Duchess&.dnm=Duchess2+04-03.jpg&.src=ph&.done=http%3a//f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/sarahbj100/vwp%3f.dir=/Duchess%26.dnm=Duchess1%2b04-03.jpg%26.src=ph)

I'd love to hear what anyone has to say!
MsDuch

slb

Jul. 31, 2003, 11:36 AM

Of Angles and Heavy on the Forehand...
Martha what breed is Java? I have some comments on his unbalanced front to back...but want to reserved all conclusions until I know what breed he is. Also, has he ever tied up or had stifle ot other similar problems? Is he on a high fat diet?

Shoulder angles change and they are dependent on the balance and alignment of the feet. Because of the anatomical construction of the horse, the shoulder is not a fixed object. Therefore, while there may be an "ideal", IMO it is not very relevant to consider shoulder angles. While they make a difference as to how the horse moves, they can be manipulated and therefore questionable when considering the overall horse.

I don't want to make this another foot thread, but I think that we should stop looking at the two things seperately and put them together as a whole.

Just my little titbit of thought on this.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

subk

Jul. 31, 2003, 12:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
Simon is a handsome fellow! What does he compete at? Don't you take him prelim+?

martha
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Martha, yes Simon does prelim+. He's run around a CCI** with lots of everything to spare. While he has the scope to keep moving up I'm not sure I do! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think your triangle thing in the back end is interesting. Could you explain it in a little more detail as I'm unfamiliar with the theory. Maybe show us some comparisons?

Here's the updated photo of Simon if you want to compare what a little fitness does. (As well as see his neck and head. He's been back to serious work 3 months and has only started gallop sets in the last few weeks so he's not quite Prelim fit. The photo on the first page was 5 months off and the last 3 in a stall.

I've also included a head-on shot of his front legs. I think you'll find him a bit base narrow as well as a little turned out, his right leg more so than his left.

subk

Jul. 31, 2003, 12:08 PM

Sorry can't figure out how to get two attachments on the same thread. Here's Simon's front legs.

[This message was edited by subk on Jul. 31, 2003 at 04:23 PM.]

mcmIV

Jul. 31, 2003, 12:20 PM

SLB - He's a Paint - TB mother and Paint dad - Dad had a lot of TB in him.

He does indeed had a MINOR stifle problem - a little bit of arthritis on the RIGHT side - which isn't pictured. Caught by the bonescan and tons and tons of Xrays.

The picture that's up, obviously he is "in motion" with his hind end and not standing square. He was on the move and stopping abrubtly every second to see something interesting when I got that picture. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Otherwise he is on nothign special in his diet - a little sunniflax and pellets with run of the mill hay.

What leads you to the stifle conclusion - considering you are correct in some respect. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That would be good information.

This picture (http://community.webshots.com/photo/83305698/83310627IntIHW) shows him in motion - in his normal way of going. He tracks up well usually, etc.

I have a confo picture of him somewhere at home where he is much more relaxed and I think standing squarely, I'm interested to look at it again to see how his hind end is stacking up when he is standing comfortably sqaure.

Java's feet - I can't say are perfect, I think they're still a little underrun - but they've gotten rounder and more substantially under him where they belong in the last 6 months. I've never acutally noticed a direct correlation between shoulder angle and stride - even though I measured his shoulder for kicks. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I notice everyone is posting pictures of their own horses to get critques on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Hah. I was think more of posting one at a time and getting comments and then doing another.

SubK - My triangle thing might be TOTALLY fabrication - I remember being taught that in endless confo clinics - but I may very well be triangulating the wrong points. I need to go through my books a little bit and then look at more real horses.

This is not a good thread to read at work.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Jul. 31, 2003 at 04:28 PM.]

Xanthoria

Jul. 31, 2003, 01:43 PM

I am not sure about the whole square thing: here's a pic (I've posted before) of my short-backed horse fitting in a square just fine:

http://www.xanthoria.com/images/TheGeneral/conformation_lines.jpg

According to the square he's the perfect length, but he's really quite short in the back!

You can also see that his hocks could be more let down - the angle from hock to kneee is downhill. On the other hand his topline is uphill as you can see from the top white box line - wither to top of rump. On the third hand, the core of loins to palpable base of neck (blue line) is downhill, when it should be level. So, is this horse downhill?

His shoulder is a bit steep: pink line shows 45 degrees. His thigh/gaskin ratio is about equal, which is good as too-long gaskins are weak an result in a camped-out horse.

Can't think of anything else to comment on... anyoen?

Fourfootedfriend

Jul. 31, 2003, 01:46 PM

I love conformation pictures and I love getting feedback so here is my horse's photo. Description is on the photo.

Wink's conformation shot (http://hometown.aol.com/petluv3/myhomepage/photo.html)

Edited to fix a really bad typo. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

subk

Jul. 31, 2003, 02:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Xanthoria:
According to the square he's the perfect length, but he's really quite short in the back!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Xan, you say he's short in the back as if it is a flaw. I've always thought a short back was a good quality, seeing that I have one too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think it may be a serious part of the equation that makes Simon adjustable and cat like. I'd love to know what kind of ride your little short backed red head gives you. He's quite attractive.

You ask if he's uphill or downhill but I'm not sure that's an actual measurement. (If someones got one PLEASE post it.) I'm a "squinker" myself. (squink my eyes to remove the detail and then just taking in a general impression.) I see your guy as pretty level. I'd love to hear some other opinions on this particular horse's "uphillness" because I think its a good question.

[This message was edited by subk on Jul. 31, 2003 at 06:22 PM.]

BostonBanker

Jul. 31, 2003, 03:23 PM

I love reading these threads. I'm not brave enough to contribute my own comments on others' horses, but will submit a photo (and hope to get some!).

The photo is of Tristan last year, so he was 6. 16.2hh (at the time) Hanoverian. Doing lower level dressage and some h/j stuff. His legs aren't perfectly square, but I think this is a very good shot for evaluating conformation.

Tristan Conformation (http://hometown.aol.com/bostonbank/intro.html)

"Nothing says 'Welcome to our home' like a dwarf in the hedges."

Iron Gate Farm

Jul. 31, 2003, 04:20 PM

What a great idea!! I'd love to know what you think of my girl!

Here's a picture of her last summer after her workout. I had owned her for about 4 months in this picture. She was 4 y/o at the time and a bit over 16.2(3). She's by a Clydsdale stallion out of a Belgian/TB dam. Thanks in advance!!

~*Formally KissFromARose*~

Personal Slave To:
~*My Wild Irish Rose*~ (AKA Rosey)
~*Bailey's Irish Mist*~ (AKA Bailey)

(The Irish part wasn't intentional, I swear!...lol)

Essie

Jul. 31, 2003, 04:25 PM

This is Essie at 3 years old. Have fun with it. BTW, Essie is now 4 years old.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL16/731393/2506913/30409266.jpg

Both pictures are copyrighted by Lori Harrison, 2002 and are reproduced with permission

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL16/731393/2506913/30409309.jpg

www.Dresscore.com (http://www.dresscore.com)
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Transitioning Dressage to the Computer</pre>

Xanthoria

Jul. 31, 2003, 04:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by subk:
Xan, you say he's short in the back as if it is a flaw. I've always thought a short back was a good quality, seeing that I have one too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think it may be a serious part of the equation that makes Simon adjustable and cat like. I'd love to know what kind of ride your little short backed red head gives you. He's quite attractive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks! I prefer a short back myself - he's a very maneuverable little punk (16hh) and having ridden wriggly long backed horses recently I prefer something I feel I could get round a corner at some speed with less support from me. I think a short back = stronger loin, too, which is all good! But where to put that saddle.....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by subk:
You ask if he's uphill or downhill but I'm not sure that's an actual measurement. (If someones got one PLEASE post it.) I'm a "squinker" myself. (squink my eyes to remove the detail and then just taking in a general impression.) I see your guy as pretty level. I'd love to hear some other opinions on this particular horse's "uphillness" because I think its a good question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think "squinking" is a good thing to do, not least because a lot of horses are less than, or more then, the sum of their parts. At the end of the day, stepping back and asking "does this horse present a preasing overall picture" is a good skill to have. It's all well and good dissecting the details, but if the parts don't add up - well! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Iron Gate Farm

Jul. 31, 2003, 04:32 PM

OK, this is our 16 y/o QH/Morgan gelding. He's 15.1 and is udes for trails/pleasure and some low-level dressage. Right now we're working on bringing up his topline. He really isn't fat, but he does have a low topline and big barrel http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif . Thanks!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~*Formally KissFromARose*~

Personal Slave To:
~*My Wild Irish Rose*~ (AKA Rosey)
~*Bailey's Irish Mist*~ (AKA Bailey)

(The Irish part wasn't intentional, I swear!...lol)

redpony

Jul. 31, 2003, 05:22 PM

Here's my contribution. He's an 8 year old OTTB who hung out for two years which explains his lack of muscling. And those are two bowed tendons which are cold and set. Please ignore the winter fuzzys. He was very well bred (Secretariat/Fanfreluche) and Bold Ruler on both sides. Never placed better than second on the track. Now he's learning to jump and will be my hubby's next eventer.

sixpoundfarm

Jul. 31, 2003, 05:50 PM

I recently read the three conformation books by Dr Bennett. They are excellent and thought provoking. I highly recommend them to someone wanting to learn the mechanics of the whole picture.
Principles of Conformation Analysis is the series.

www.sixpoundfarm.com (http://www.sixpoundfarm.com)

Anne

Jul. 31, 2003, 06:24 PM

Dr. Deb Bennett did not do PH's conformation clinic. Champ Hough and Sallie Sexton did. Bennett formerly had a column in Equus. I found Conformation Clinic much more educational because both Champ and Sallie were great at saying "blank" would knock the horse down the conformation lineup, but would not affect soundness or performance, or "blank" will affect movement and jump "this way".

Dolce Vita

Jul. 31, 2003, 08:26 PM

I'll play...

This is our 3 year old Breeding Stock Paint filly. I don't think that she is standing well enough in this picture for you to evaluate her backend, but maybe her front end?

http://community.webshots.com/photo/66649124/74581372rGpCXY

You can see her neck better in this one...
http://community.webshots.com/photo/66649124/74581484QoIfSk

I think that she has a nice front end and topline...but then again I don't know anything about Conformation...Lets hear it from the experts!

- - - - - -
Chelsea (http://community.webshots.com/user/tothestars)

Just ease your mind, have a banana or two
- - - - - -

Konstantin92

Aug. 1, 2003, 04:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Posted by MCMIV: I notice everyone is posting pictures of their own horses to get critques on. Hah. I was think more of posting one at a time and getting comments and then doing another. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this idea, and I felt like it might have gotten a little lost in the length of the post, so brought it out again. I think that it could be a really great idea for everyone to pick apart one horse for a length of time before moving on to another horse. I imagine that over time we would be able to get to all of the horses that people would want done, but by going slowly and over one horse at a time we might be able to get a better grasp of conformation in general. So MCMIV.... I'm with you on that! Anyone else??? Maybe we can pick one photograph to start with and then go from there?? JMO

mcmIV

Aug. 1, 2003, 06:19 AM

I'm with you on that Konstantin - I've only been able to open a few of the dozens posted - not enough time! I like Simon's build posted back on page one, for instance, but I don't have a better suggestion!

I think the VERY NEXT PERSON who posts a confo picture that shows the entire horse standing up comfortably square, clean and central in the photograph should be our first victim...err.... subject. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Note: the picture composition and quality needs to be high in order to properly critique *cough*.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

vineyridge

Aug. 1, 2003, 08:14 AM

I have some really basic conformation questions.

What do people mean when they say the rear angles are too straight? What angles? And how angled should they be?

I do understand shoulders, finally, I think. And necks.

Long Pasterns--when are pasterns too long? When are they too short?

If we need more subjects, why not borrow some from a CANTER site?

Why not make a list of all the conformation questions that should be asked, from tail to nose, so the rest of us can learn them, and apply those questions to the "victim..err...subject"?

As you can tell, this fascinates me.

Thread killer Extraordinaire

Pocket Pony

Aug. 1, 2003, 09:06 AM

Ok, I'll post a picture of Mickey and if he fits the bill for a proper picture and standing up well, can he be critiqued? This is a couple of years ago - I really need to get a new picture of him.

Mickey Conformation (http://community.webshots.com/photo/14233933/14233998qIpcFTrSCR)

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

mcmIV

Aug. 1, 2003, 10:34 AM

We have a winner! Let's stick to mickey for a while and get some good information and then use a new horse to clarify what we learn. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I can't really look at the picture at work with any focus - but on a glance, it's beautiful - and at a glance, he is very very nice. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I do think the photo is on a downhill slant - something to consider in our analysis.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

Xanthoria

Aug. 1, 2003, 12:38 PM

OK, here's Mickey with the lines added, and turned so he's level.

http://www.xanthoria.com/images/TheGeneral/mickey.jpg

(hope you don't mind batgirl!)

All I can say is he has a longer back than my horse, and a nearer-to-45-degree slope to the shoulder. All in all I think he's in great proportion!

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vineyridge

Aug. 1, 2003, 12:51 PM

Another really good website.

Pastern angle should be the same as the shoulder angle.

Lots more good stuff here.
Wisconsin equine anatomy (http://www.wisc.edu/ansci_repro/101equinelab/anatomy/anatomy.html#anchor15748645)
And here
Wisconsin II (http://www.wisc.edu/ansci_repro/101equinelab/anatomy/anatomy_list.html)

Thread killer Extraordinaire

Pocket Pony

Aug. 1, 2003, 01:00 PM

Thanks Xanthoria for adding the lines. The problem is, I don't know what any of them mean. Anyone care to elaborate on what the lines mean in terms of "ideal", and where Mickey fits into that?

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

MsDuch

Aug. 1, 2003, 01:04 PM

Xan: How did you place the front end of the dark blue line? And what program are you using to do the lines? I want to give that a try on my mare.

Can anyone give a summary analysis of Mickey? Particularly a translation of how aspects of his conformation would (theoretically) translate to performance/soundness...

Batgirl: what does Mickey do? What is he? (other than very handsome!)

thanks!
MsDuch

Xanthoria

Aug. 1, 2003, 01:20 PM

Using Deb Bennett's site mentioned before, http://www.equinestudies.org/conformation.htm , the blue line (core of loin to palpable base of neck) should ideally be level in a riding horse. Allegedly. I am no expert but used Dr Bennett's examples as my guide.

I think we all know that a closer to 45 degree shoulder makes for a smoother ride. I'm sure Mikey's pretty comfy! His long back might make it harder to collect him, but having more lateral flexion should make lateral movements easier. I think a lot of his length is due to a long, sloping rump and less to do with weak loins though.

I also think it's true that a relatively closed angle between shoulder-elbow and hip-stifle gives a smoother ride, more length of stride, better reach and so on. Conversely, upright shoulders and post legs in back mean stilted gaits. Although you can go too far either way obviously!

Anyone care to add anything? I am no expert!

I used Photoshop to add the lines, btw. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Pocket Pony

Aug. 1, 2003, 01:21 PM

Yes, it would be interesting for someone to hypothesize about what kind of mover he is based on his conformation.

Mickey is now a 10yo TB. We do dressage with some jumping for fun. We just started dressage training a year ago after leaving the h/j trainer who taught him how to stop. So the "jumping for fun" part of our routine is just getting him used to it again. He doesn't have to be a show horse anymore.

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

mcmIV

Aug. 1, 2003, 03:15 PM

The one thing I see on Mickey that would be an obvious flaw, if it's not a fluke in this photo - is he appears to be a little over at the knee. At least the right front which is not squared with the left.

There are always discussions aboutr which knee faults are acceptable, and i THINK this is one that is not usually cause for concern. Right?

I learned somethign interesting on Dr Debs site - the thigh to gaskin ratio. She states early on that a riding horse should have a thigh that is equal to the legnth of the gaskin. If the GASKIN is longer than the thigh she says you likely to see the hind end camped out and probably stifle problems or weak hocks.

I have to read that page some more for more interesting info.

What I want to know is - Mickey's thigh is longer than his gaskin - according to Xan's lines. Is this a good thing? This triangle might be what my old conformation memories are recalling - and I KNOW there is a rule of thumb that in the butt having a longer ratio from X to Y means more leverage and more power.

So what does the long thigh mean for Mickey, in theory?

And the blue line that levels him out - I'm not sure I buy that comment on Dr Deb's site. I need more clarification. What if Mickey's head were greatly elevated looking at a squirrel. Wouldn't that bring up the base point on his neck? It doesn't seem reasonable to pick such a dynamic location for measurement. Hmmm....

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

MistyBlue

Aug. 1, 2003, 05:58 PM

May I join in with some critiques on my DWB mare? I guess I'm considered about 'average' at picking out decent conformation, but this is my first WB and frankly I don't know a whole lot about the Dutch horses yet. I've been told I have an 'old fashioned', 'original' and 'heavy' type of Dutch. And when looking at other DWB's I do see the difference between the lighter, more 'modern' types and my mare. Gal (my mare) has a pretty dressage-y breeding, she was bred with her current discipline in mind. And to make matters more confusing to me, I'm also bradn new to dressage and have no idea what someone looks for in a dressage type conformation as opposed to a hunter or jumper type conformation.
What I think about my girl: She's heavier boned than average, a tad long in the back-possibly slightly roached, nice shoulder, big unrefined head (but cute as heck http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) she has good angles on her pasterns and great big healthy rock solid feet. (size 4's) Right now she's finally up in weight, she was pretty thin and underweight when I bought her, but she needs more muscle especially in her hind end. Also some more muscle along her topline to bring it back up. She's just turned 15, and is 17.1h. The pictures aren't very good, I'm horrid at photography.
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Aug/2003811953694214198015.jpg
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Aug/2003816022048914775780.jpg
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Aug/2003815808412719503164.jpg

Equine Crash Test Dummy

Kimba

Aug. 1, 2003, 06:08 PM

hey here is one - i would love to see what you all think of him......

This was my small junior hunter and he actually WAS a conformation horse as a first year horse....hopefully some things that you see in him will help you to talk about the other pictures - ohh yes and when this picture was taken he was 9 years old, and is a 15.1 hand TB gelding - i know i know he looks like a mare

Gypsy Gold (http://www.geocities.com/upnext17/GypsyGoldconf.html?1059790491866)
Cowboy wisdom: "Don't squat with your spurs on."

[This message was edited by Kimba on Aug. 01, 2003 at 10:18 PM.]

vineyridge

Aug. 1, 2003, 09:17 PM

Kimba
Just wanted to say that he is absolutely lovely. From what I can tell, he is nearly flawless. Maybe just a tiny bit straight in the shoulder, but that could be the picture.

JMHO

Thread killer Extraordinaire

Kimba

Aug. 2, 2003, 04:17 PM

the only fault i can see on mickey is that he is a little bit over in the knee - other that that he is beautiful TB!!!

(maybe a little bit more muscle in the hind end wouldn't hurt him but i do think that he looks great)

Cowboy wisdom: "Don't squat with your spurs on."

Parade

Aug. 2, 2003, 07:36 PM

I want to get in on this!!
All honesty, I know nothing about confirmation.

She is a 17 hand TB at 15 yrs old.

I do know she toes in a little in front, she has great movement and suspension and jumps like a dream.

You will have to forgive the pictures - she is NOT at her best, a month off to fatten her up because of some serious weight loss. There is NO muscle on her in these pictures, basically a fat cow of a horse! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif We are working on getting her back in shape now.

Oh and her feet are really bad right now, all the rain we have had she has no feet anymore, heals gone (Previous ferrier), we are working on getting those feet to grow now.

here's my girl. (http://www.geocities.com/love_parade28/moreparade.html)

Kimba

Aug. 3, 2003, 12:51 PM

bluesy

your pictures are not the greatest for judging conformation - there is not still picture of him from the side so you can't really see if he has any faults or good qualities

what you can see from teh two of them:

from the one taken from behind makes him look as if he is long backed - not necessarily a terrible thing just depends on how long his long back is........maybe he toes out a little bit in front i can't really tell to much

he may also be 'u necked' meaning that as his neck comes out of his whithers it goes down before it goes back up to meet his ears - hence the base of his neck is lower than the point of the withers.....on your horse though i would say it is from lack of muscled topline - you should do a lot of long and low trot with him getting him to reach his head down to the ground and poke his nose out while trotting to build up his back muscles and to build up his neck muscles - this will also help him to stretch out his hamstrings and stifles while strengthening them as well

Cowboy wisdom: "Don't squat with your spurs on."

Kimba

Aug. 3, 2003, 12:54 PM

parade:

is your mare perhaps pigeon toed?? kind of looks like it from the pictures - also the angles behind look kind of fishy especially on the white hind leg - but that could be how she is standing

she is really in need of muscle especially along her topline - look at what i wrote above in the post before for that

Cowboy wisdom: "Don't squat with your spurs on."

Sonichorse

Aug. 3, 2003, 01:42 PM

Sorry. I posted a picture to be critiqued, I am among those guilty of not reading the whole thread thouroughly. Ill wait my turn.

[This message was edited by ImaSillyCow on Aug. 03, 2003 at 06:40 PM.]

wanderlust

Aug. 3, 2003, 02:21 PM

Ummm, all you guys who are posting pics for critiques... please go back and read mcmIV's posts on the previous two pages. The point of this thread is to critique one horse at a time, then move on to the next.

I believe we are still on Mickey...

Parade

Aug. 3, 2003, 04:06 PM

That works for me, I am not in any hurry. Sorry to post out of turn! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Pocket Pony

Aug. 4, 2003, 10:08 AM

Re Mickey being over at the knee...that's just the picture...I had a hard time getting him to stand still and he was probably about to come forward for a carrot.

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

mcmIV

Aug. 4, 2003, 12:23 PM

in that case - Mickey appears just about perfect. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We can move onto to a new horse if there aren't comments about mickey - a GOOD photo in composition. Well lit with a level square subject.

We can use Parade's mare - first recent link I clicked that looks clean. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.geocities.com/love_parade28/moreparade.html

At first glance (from work) Parade's mare isn't as "clean and fancy" as Mickey or Kimba's horse were.... She has a bit of a belly and an underveloped topline (which Parade acknowledged).

BUT! The thing that will be valuable about using this mare is that she isn't in her peak fitness - and her actual conformation isn't as obvious. She may indeed be very well proportioned under that flesh. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So let's talk about her. Thanks Parade. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

wanderlust

Aug. 4, 2003, 12:42 PM

The first thing that strikes me about Parade's mare is a long back. I'm not sure if less of a belly would make it more or less obvious.

Her neck appears short, and developed along the underside rather than the topline. It is a bit lowset and does not rise cleanly out of the withers, but sits below them. However, I have found that correct work (and lots of work on the lunge with sidereins) can dramatically improve the appearance of a neck like this.

She stands a bit under herself in front and looks like she toes-in on the left front. Good short cannons and pasterns with excellent slope.

Moving on to her hind end- I rather like it. Excellent angulation in the hind legs, again the short cannons and pasterns. Nice sloping croup. Good tie-in at the gaskin.

Parade

Aug. 4, 2003, 06:18 PM

ohhhh...I feel so special!

Actually, I noticed that she does look like she has a short neck, but I think that belly makes it hard to really tell. She isn't as long backed as the picture apears. I notice the neck more than anything myself.
Her topline is AWFUL right now. She does toe in but that has never gotten in her way. And it is barely noticable as long as she is shod on a regular schedule. We don't try to correct her but we do make sure she is trimmed regularly.
Since that picture (only a couple of weeks old) she has started to muscle up and although we still have a long way to go on the top line she is moving wonderful these days.

My big concern is that I know she has been used as a broodmare before and I would like to breed her again. She has excellent lines and is a good mover. I have seen pictures of her babies and they are wonderful. If I breed her it will be for a wonderful foal and I want to find as many faults (or not) with her as I can before I make that decision.

On another note - this is not a good confirmation picture, but lets you see her back and backside better! *LOL*

http://www.geocities.com/love_parade28/love_parade.html

[This message was edited by Parade on Aug. 04, 2003 at 10:39 PM.]

Lizlui

Aug. 4, 2003, 06:38 PM

Here is a stallion up for critiquing!! This is Galiani. Galiani (http://www.3hequestrian.com/Gali.html)

Danielle
www.3Hequestrian.com (http://www.3Hequestrian.com)

mcmIV

Aug. 4, 2003, 06:44 PM

Master Tally - what do you mean by good tie in at the gaskin? I think most of us have trouble with the hind end, especially quarters into the limbs. Your comment might clarify some confusion.

I also see her as being low set in the neck - but I'm not convienced shes truly low - only that she has no topline. I believe that the neck not coming out smooth from the withers isn't entirely accurate for judging neck set - that is mostly muscle or lack of.

But I know horses are out there that have a neck coming out higher in line with the wither muscled or not. However, there is a great deal of variation in sheer height of wither irregardless of back/neck/size - dinowithers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif So using the wither as a judge is probably inconsistent.

Look at Dr. Deb's second horse for instance: http://www.equinestudies.org/images/Barrel_Racer_Side_View_1_Analysis.JPG

She says " Ol' Harley has a beautiful long neck too, straight in shape like a racehorse's ought to be, yet not hung low at the root (i.e., no tendency for ewe neck)....."

I know she isn't necessarily saying his neck is well set for dressage, etc., but she is saying with certainty it isn't hung low at the root. In other words, that missing space from with the neck is muscle - the neck itself relates well to the body. Right?

I just looked at that old horse on that site and thougt "he looks like a crummy old horse" at first glance, but she told me a lot about him that was positive and not obvious because of his age and condition.

So Parade's neck could be connected very well - in fact I think it is. It just isn't naturally cresty and arching - many of our horses would look this way if they were turned out to pasture for a couple years, popped out some babies and maybe needed to gain some pounds. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And Parade - as far as broodmares go, she sounds like a good idea. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Great personality, proven babies and shes a nice mare.

How bout that Gaskin, Master Tally?

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

wanderlust

Aug. 4, 2003, 06:54 PM

Oh Martha, way to put me on the spot. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Truthfully, I can't describe what it is that is a good tie-in at the gaskin... its just something I see and recognize, but I can't really quantify it. There is just something about the way her loin runs into her belly and her thigh that looks pleasing to my eye (although there could be a bit better definition, but the lack of definition is probably due to unfitness).

Sorry I can't do better than that... I'll try to find a picture of what I think is a not-good-gaskin.

Bluesy

Aug. 4, 2003, 07:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kimba:
bluesy

your pictures are not the greatest for judging conformation - there is not still picture of him from the side so you can't really see if he has any faults or good qualities

what you can see from teh two of them:

from the one taken from behind makes him look as if he is long backed - not necessarily a terrible thing just depends on how long his long back is........maybe he toes out a little bit in front i can't really tell to much

he may also be 'u necked' meaning that as his neck comes out of his whithers it goes down before it goes back up to meet his ears - hence the base of his neck is lower than the point of the withers.....on your horse though i would say it is from lack of muscled topline - you should do a lot of long and low trot with him getting him to reach his head down to the ground and poke his nose out while trotting to build up his back muscles and to build up his neck muscles - this will also help him to stretch out his hamstrings and stifles while strengthening them as well

Cowboy wisdom: "Don't squat with your spurs on."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very sorry...I guess I kinda jumped the gun, I didn't read through well enough. Didn't see the part about critiquing one horse and then moving on, I think I just got a little excited about showing my pride and joy off. My bad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

And I shouldn't have posted his pictures without having a better side view, I just didn't have a good clear one scanned.
*Goes and hides in a corner* http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/littlerainintheface

Ladies and gentlemen, you might want to shield yourselves with your dessert menus, I might be dangerous!

Parade

Aug. 4, 2003, 07:10 PM

OK, I have to ask this....being confirmationally challenged! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I will use Parade as an example, I will be perfectly honest when I say the first time I saw her I thought "Who would want that horse?"
I meant it.....she looked worse than she does now and I have the pics to prove it. She was a mess and I wouldn't have given her a second glance if my trainer hadn't talked me into giving her a try.
I got on and loved it, she had her many many problems, mostly from being out of shape and had bad riders on her back for to long, but I still fell in love.
As we started working her my trainer kept telling me over and over again that this horse had been well trained. I finially decided to start looking into her background and found that my trainer was right.

So my question is -
When looking at a horse, how can you really see past all the initial ugly to get to the real horse??

my trainer who had never gotten on my horses back saw something in her that to be honest no one else at our barn saw, including myself. (granted my trainer has over 70 yrs dealing in horse flesh where I don't, but still! you have to learn sometime! *LOL*)

CoolMeadows

Aug. 4, 2003, 07:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DPAkin:
Here is a stallion up for critiquing!! This is Galiani. http://www.3hequestrian.com/Gali.html

Danielle
http://www.3Hequestrian.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Yowza! He's gorgeous! I'm definitely not a conformation expert, but I don't think I'd change a thing on him! What's his stud fee?

JohnnyB

Aug. 4, 2003, 09:41 PM

Here is my boy. He is three in this picture(i think). Tell me what you think of him!!!Magic (http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=showMyPhoto&albumID=82749599&photoID=82974640&security=bRhidP)

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 5, 2003, 03:15 AM

Sorry. I'm guilty ... didn't read the first couple of pages.

Soooorrrrrryy.

Taking my pic away, with sincere apologies. Duc's not the doofus, I am. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

The adventure has begun...
KT

mcmIV

Aug. 5, 2003, 05:36 AM

No No - I think we shoudl do Duc next! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just need to finish up with Parade.

The stallion - did indeed look gorgeous.

Back to Parade - like you say - she doesnt necessarily look like prime horse flesh when you first look at her - but I really like a picture like hers, because it isn't a well muscled, plump sporthorse who looks great at first glance.

Just look at all those CANTER horses. Most of them are scrawny, muscled for running, and gawky in their youth. BUT - that impression hides good conformation - to the untrained eye. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Master Tally - I usually think I can see a good "tie in" from the gaskin into the stifle - but because I can't explain it I've decided I have no idea what I'm looking for. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think you might be a little more confident than myself on this one. Going back to Dr Deb, she says that the thigh/gaskin should be the same length in an ideal riding horse. I think that's a place to start.

What about the angle of the gaskin into the thigh?

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

Kimba

Aug. 5, 2003, 06:41 AM

the stallion is beautiful!!! the only thing that does not really appeal to me is the thickness of his neck - both from the side and that head on shot - his neck is massively thick from one side to the other and being the TB person that i am i would probably put a neck sweat on him http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cowboy wisdom: "Don't squat with your spurs on."

vineyridge

Aug. 5, 2003, 06:51 AM

Parade

I do think she's a bit long backed.

Is it true that the length from withers to poll should be about the same as the length from withers to croup?

Otherwise, I like her. When she gets more muscle up top, she'll be lovely.

Thread killer Extraordinaire

mcmIV

Aug. 5, 2003, 07:39 AM

Viney - if that legnth rule of thumb is true it would be a good tool to use in evaluating! We must find that out.

I ordered a book on conformation based on photos and disciplines - hopefully I can share some things I get from it!

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

Pocket Pony

Aug. 5, 2003, 07:52 AM

Ok, I think I need lessons in conformation. Looking at Parade, I like her shoulder, neck and head (although the neck does look a bit short). I think with regular, proper, work, her neck would look lovely and not tied in too low. I think she looks like she's standing under herself because she just took a step forward with her RH and needs to take a step forward with her RF to stand squarely.

Unlike MT, though, I don't like her hind end. Well, her butt I like OK, but I don't like her legs. Hard to explain why, though. Looking at the angles, something just seems off to me and she seems weak there (well, of course she is, she hasn't been in work). If she was standing square behind, it might change my opinion.

Can someone draw the lines and put forth comments on the angles, etc?

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

Parade

Aug. 5, 2003, 08:05 AM

batgirl -

Let me ask this -
Parade had almost no heals. It appears the previous ferrier liked to shoe that way. Also, when I changed ferriers the new one told me he had never seen such a horrible job in his life, felt like it would take months to get heals back on Parade, ALSO - previous ferrier pointed her back feet like this /-\ instead if (-). These pictures were taken about 3 weeks after new ferriers first time working with her. Would the hoof issues with her feet affect the way her back legs are looking in the pictures? (He even had to put lifts on the back they were so bad)

mcmIV

Aug. 5, 2003, 08:09 AM

Parade - like SLB alluded to back on page 1 - feet will affect many aspects of a horse's conformation, especially those that are "dynamic" like the shoulder.

So low heels may very well create a look of overly sloping pasterns, or upright shoulder, or cause a horse to stand un-square more than not. Of course, that artificial conformation will create stress on the body and lead to all the bad things poor feet do to horses.

I think they relate to eachother - but I don't think that her entire "look" will dramatically shift with improved feet. It definately has an effect though.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 5, 2003, 08:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>No No - I think we shoudl do Duc next! Just need to finish up with Parade. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok. I removed his snap ... so whenever you're ready. Duc? You ready?

The adventure has begun...
KT

Le Duc

Aug. 5, 2003, 08:16 AM

Mommmmmmmmm.

Will this hurrrrrrrt? Idonwannadonwannadonwannna.

Le Duc de Willem (I miss my Daddy)
(but you can call me Duc-ster)

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 5, 2003, 08:25 AM

Oh Duc, hush. This isn't going to hurt. Goodness gracious. And DON'T go running to Dr. Tim either. *sheesh*

BTW, this might be a very interesting exercise ... as this is a yearling. The snap taken was on or about May 19-28, 2003.

I should have another shot of him, trotting (or maybe standing up) on August 2, 2003 by Thursday. As this is about conformation, you'll be seeing the difference of about two months growth, and how conformation changes with babies.

Which should be an education ... at least for me! <KT doffs her hat and bows veryvery low indeed, in gratitude.>

The adventure has begun...
KT

Parade

Aug. 5, 2003, 08:29 AM

mcmIV -

It wouldn't make a drastic difference, but I would think if you were look at a horse and couldn't tell what it was but something was bothering you about it, maybe just not right, that something as slight as a hoof angle could be what is throwing off the big picture?

Or maybe not even the hoof but something equally not quite so noticable at first glance? Or as time goes on are you able to pick up on those things quicker?

Sorry to ask so many questions....I love learning new things!

mcmIV

Aug. 5, 2003, 08:38 AM

Parade - I think you might be right - and the best way for us to be able to make an educated determination about whether its FEET or Purely bad confo is to be SUPER good evaluaters. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I like RULES. We do need to drop some angles on Parade before we finish with her, I think. If Xan doesn't do it at some point, I'll try to remember tonite! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh and I did find more information on my original TRIANGLE rule for the butt. It is stated as I thought in my veterinary anatomy and lameness book - I will put down the exact rule when I get home!

Similar to the Dr Deb triangle, but much more "square" - equilateral....

Something like, a strong hind will have an imaginary triangle from hip to point of butt to stifle that is equal on all sides (angles?). I need a geometry refresher. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But the rule, when it's correctly understood, has to do with basic physics of angles and power/thrust based on leverage. Of course, I need a physics refresher too.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 05, 2003 at 12:49 PM.]

sixpoundfarm

Aug. 5, 2003, 09:06 AM

Le Duc is quite handsome! He looks like he shares my horse affliction for mud! At least he only has muddy legs! Oceania is a PIG! Her motto is stop, drop and roll in the nastiest place in the field.

www.sixpoundfarm.com (http://www.sixpoundfarm.com)

wanderlust

Aug. 5, 2003, 09:21 AM

I think Parade's horse may appear weak behind because the enormous size of her belly overshadows the backend (and the neck, and the shoulder). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I find it refreshing to see a horse with angulation to the hind limbs- most of what is out there for TBs today is way too straight and post-legged. Yes, she appears to be standing a bit strangely on one of her feet, but I still think it is a good, clean, well put-together hind end that I like better than the front end.

Parade

Aug. 5, 2003, 09:51 AM

OK, I don't know if this will make sense, but since I have ridden Parade, putting the sum of the confirmation critique's together with what I have experienced riding, please tell me if this makes sense -

She is an extremely strong jumper, never refuses anything and I have made mistakes that have added a few grey hairs on my head, but because she is a good jumper she has saved my backside more times than I want to count - we could attribute that to having a good backend (The horses! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

On the same hand, she will stick her head between her knees and run off on her forhand unless the rider makes an effort to keep her up in front - we could blame that on a weak neck and topline.

Does that sould like it could be a bit right?

I am trying to to put the parts that are there together to get a picture one might be able to use when looking at a horse to have some idea of how it will go.

"Good backside, should be able to jump nicely, need topline improvement, might run on forhand" make sense?

[This message was edited by Parade on Aug. 05, 2003 at 02:12 PM.]

mcmIV

Aug. 5, 2003, 11:55 AM

Unfortunately I think a horse's true potential is a factor of: Brains, Desire, How the Parts Fit Together.

In other words, lots of horses have a whole bunch of confo flaws, but they fit together to make a pretty tidy package when the animal is working. On the other hand, lots of horses have flaws that ultimately make them sore, lame and untalented. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

So to maximize potential and minimize risk - buying and breeding a horse with excellent conformation is wise - but I don't think you can be sure of anything until you try with each animal.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

Parade

Aug. 5, 2003, 12:05 PM

This topic has helped me alot.

Thanks all, I can't wait to see more about other horses that are posted.

*SERAPH*

Aug. 5, 2003, 12:14 PM

Parade--

You have a lovely mare whose got a very bold, competitive eye. I love the way she looks out of them; definite mare that's "got game"! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Her topline, in my opinion, simply needs a bit of weight and muscle. Her neck ties in a little low, but not in such a way that her performance should be hindered.

Her shoulder is a tad straight but has nice depth. Front leg conformation is very good; forearm is nicely muscled...could be a little longer but it IS longer than the cannon and that is what's important. The cannon is good in bone size and is nice and short; pasterns are correct in length in relation to the cannon and would be more upright (as they should align with her shoulder) if she had heels.

Her back appears long; but believe this is actually length of croup and a croup that is somewhat flat that causes this appearance. She has a very good loin connection; lot's of power in the rear-end. She has very good angulation in the pelvis with good length from point of hip to point of butt. The distance from point of butt to the stifle is almost equal to the distance from point of hip to butt...this is very good. And the distance from the stifle to the point of hock is very close to the same aforementioned distances. This is also good.

Her stifle is higher than her elbow, the hocks much higher than the knees; no wonder she is such a good jumper!

Her hocks are well let down; however she appears to be sickle-hocked, and though a fault, can contribute to the horse being able to step under itself very well which, of course, can make for some good dressage movement.

All in all, I'd take her off your hands in a heartbeat. What's neat about her conformation is that for every weakness she seems to have a complimentary strength. Lovely mare and I'm sure has a huge heart!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Impromptu

Aug. 5, 2003, 03:16 PM

*Raises hand* Can I make a suggestion?
How about we write the name of the horse that one is about to comment on, in bold at the top of the post? That way if people, like me, won't be as confused if we are following one horse and absorbing that knowledge before moving on to the next horse. If that sounds like a dumb idea, just pretend I never said anything. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

**********************************
With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy. ~~Max Ehrmann.
**********************************

http://community.webshots.com/user/stainlesssteal ~ My babys!
http://community.webshots.com/user/undersuspicion ~ Devon 2003

mcmIV

Aug. 5, 2003, 06:09 PM

AWESOME idea! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I guess it's up to me to change the topic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Are we done with Parade? Shall we move onto Duc? I know we were going to draw lines on Parade, but Seraph gave a really nice overview and I think we have to keep going or stagnate! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Le Duc (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/,s,6656094911,a,ga,ul,31760046,ic,Y/duc_for_coth.jpg)

My first comment is - I beleive this picture is taken on a slight uphill gradient and also maybe a tad from the rear in horizontal angle. But it is decent for evaluation.

Initial impression right before bedtime - Duc is going to be one handsome man when he is all grown. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif First glance he seems average-short coupled, I love his front end - great straight and solid front legs and a wonderful neck.

I *think* I really like his tie in in the rear to thigh - but we need to hash that out some more. He isn't standing square behind, but he appears to close to text book in alignment of his hind.

I have some questions on him -

1) his gaskin seems underdeveloped- but I'm assuming this is totally normal for a baby. Lets look at what we might see in a baby vs. an adult.

2) Theres something funny about his hock - maybe not anything unusual, but it spoke to me. I see it bulging in the front angle - is this also due to the joint being a little large for his body due to his age? I suspect every horse looks like this and I'm seeing things.

3) Can we define his rump/loin style type? I see this rounded gentle curve on a lot of warmblood types - and I'm not sure if it's a good thing, indifferent or not ideal. It's definately not unique to Duc - there are two Trakhaners(sp) at my barn with the SAME loin/croup type one is 3 and one is 11.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 05, 2003 at 10:34 PM.]

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 05, 2003 at 10:35 PM.]

jilltx

Aug. 5, 2003, 06:32 PM

OK...I've tried and tried, but I just don't see a single thing on this guy that I don't like. I can't believe how balanced he is for a yearling, I am SO envious! Still looking at him...ok...wait...I have found a fault: his legs are a tad muddy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pre tell what breed gets to claim this handsome fellow??

~Jilltx

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"

*SERAPH*

Aug. 5, 2003, 07:45 PM

Oldenburg Mom--

Although this picture was taken at the more awkward stages of life, I have to say that Duc exhibits a lot of overall balance. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

He is a little upright in the shoulder; a carry-over from the Oldenburg's coach horse days. But not in an overly significant way and certainly if he is at all destined for jumpers this is an advantage to him.

In this pic, his neck looks a little tied in low; however, it's obvious that this pic was taken from an angle that shows him standing on a slight (upward) hill. So he's thrusting his head forward and slightly downward.

I cannot fault his back and his excellent loin connection; this boy will have power. He has a short back, a very forward loin, and a flatter croup (which, again, might make his back look longer than it actually is.) He has very good angle in the pelvis, with hip-to-butt, butt-to-stifle being of equal length. He does appear a bit post-legged; however, this makes for quite a powerful jumper. The depth in the hip-to-butt is very nice and I like the way the croup rounds and slopes downward.

He carries almost as much depth at groin as he does at the girth, which is nice.

All in all, I'd say I'd love to see more mature pics of this guy from the same angle. I would guess that his topline is more rounded and that he has a lovely, balanced uphill build.

I think this guy would have great potential as a hunter and possibly a jumper. And that's simply basing it on this pic. He may be a very good candidate for dressage as his stifle to elbow angle is more relative and he has such a wonderfully solid loin connection. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Anne

Aug. 5, 2003, 08:44 PM

(Seraph referring to straight shoulder) "But not in an overly significant way and certainly if he is at all destined for jumpers this is an advantage to him."

Please explain. In the hunters we look for a well laid back shoulder with good length and slope because it tends to make a horse move the way we like, and it tends to denote a horse who jerks his knees up to his eyeballs. I am not as familiar with selecting jumpers, but I am not sure why having a straight shoulder would be an advantage. The shoulder angle and the pastern angle should match. If the pasterns are too upright, matching a straight shoulder, this directly correlates in my experience to soundness problems.

For what it's worth, Oldenburg Mom, he is a handsome, well-balanced youngster and I don't actually think his shoulder is straight! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MistyBlue

Aug. 6, 2003, 04:02 AM

Le Duc:
Not that I'm a conformation expert by any means...and I'm learning a lot more on this thread...but I like the way this horse looks and is put together. I don't see an overly straight shoulder, but I don't think anyone has said his shoulder is very staright either. And like Anne, I always thought the shoulder should match the pastern angle? He's got a very nice head, refined and handsome. I do like the way his neck ties in too, but maybe a tad low? Could be the way he's holding it, could be I'm not positive about what I'm talking about. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
When we are done with Le Duc, would we be able to try my mare Galopin? I'm not a very competent photographer and for some reason she's really proud of one of her hind legs and always stretches it back a bit for pictures, LOL. But I think she's standing correctly for it. She's still a bit out of shape, I bought her just under a year ago and have been putting on lbs and we're still working on the muscle and condition. She's a really big girl and pretty big/heavy boned. She is a bit long in the back.
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Aug/2003815808412719503164.jpg

Equine Crash Test Dummy

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 6, 2003, 05:45 AM

Goodness.

I guess this is all good.

I will post another picture of him tomorrow in order that people can see the change two months makes. It should be interesting, merely from an intellectual point of view.

Duc has been to some breed shows as well where his conformation has been judged. At the end of the process I'll also post THEIR comments. As professional "conformation critiquers" it will also be interesting to see how their comments stack up against the BB's comments!

First, let me respond to a couple of issues.

1. Yes, the picture WAS taken on a slight hill. Wow MCM. You've got an eye!

2. Thank you for the compliment. I'm sure Duc's turning sorrel even as we "speak"

3. Gaskin. Ok. I had to stop, go to google and look up what a gaskin is. Ok... it's on the rear legs. Does that mean the muscle or the bone?

4. His hocks. Hmmmm. Don't know. I DO know that his joints are BIG. On his baby picture you can see how enormous they are. I don't think you ARE seeing things.

5. I am very interested in his rump/loin style. From my extraordinarily limited experience and knowledge, his butt is slightly smaller than I'd like. This is interesting as a comment in another thread on the Breeders' forum suggested that some Oldenburgs can be light in the 'engine' department.

-----------

moving on to more comments ...

jilltx ... thank you sweetie. What a kind thing to say!!! This big boy is an Oldenburg (GOV). Let's see if I can say this correctly: he is by Dormello out of Reina/Rosier.

And by the way, he's got the greatest temperament! We had cuddles last night ... *sigh*

-----------------

Seraph ... oh, you old flatter you!

Upright in the shoulder ... does this go back to the drawings that have been done on the other horses? With the angles ... 45% etc.?

As far as "What is his job going to be?" Well, he's going to TRY everything. And he's going to DO what he's good at and what he likes. His lines, however, are dressage.

Neck tied in low ... just a question: what difference does it make?

What is post-legged?

And I thought a flat croup was bad.

-------------------

Anne! You noticed his pasterns. What an eye you've got! They are "exceedingly long and upright" as are his dam's.

As I understand it, this is where that "big trot" will come from (that's so impossible to sit!) Is this a potential soundness issue? I've heard Yeses and Nos. For me the jury is still out. Anyone else care to comment?

---------------

MCM, although Duc is currently center stage, this is a GREAT thread. I'm learning a LOT!

Thanks to everyone who has commented. I think you will be surprised with the next picture. Very surprised indeed (I mean tomorrow's snap, not his baby picture.)

The adventure has begun...
KT

Anne

Aug. 6, 2003, 06:25 AM

OM, his pastern angle matches his shoulder angle, as it should. I see nothing too upright or straight about either his shoulder or his pastern - they are both close to ideal IMO.

I was speaking generally in seeking clarification from Seraph on why she prefers a straight shoulder for a jumper.

Re soundness, IME horses with short, very upright pasterns are prone to soundness issues along with being bad movers. Too long and sloped a pastern can also lead to trouble by not absorbing enough concussion as the leg hits the ground. Le Duc looks just fine. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 6, 2003, 06:29 AM

Thanks for clarifying, Anne.

Let me understand, if I drew a line along his pastern, then copied it up to his shoulder, they should match?

Should I do this and post it? After all, I am a graphics/computer genius (KIDDING)

The adventure has begun...
KT

mcmIV

Aug. 6, 2003, 06:37 AM

Someone - maybe ill do it tonite - should draw lines on him.

BUT!! Let me speak for SLB (who isnt here), our foot expert, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif bear in mind the shoulder/pastern angles are to a point dependent on proper feet. Super low heels, feet way out in front, etc., will literally change the angle of the pastern, which will alter the angle of the shoulder ultimately. This is not GOOD, it is probably very stressful (why feet are important), but when looking at these things, consider the feet in the picture.

So when a horse is properly shod, standing comfortably square, etc., we can see with certainty his true conformation - and *then* if pasterns and shoulders don't match we can crticize. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

KT - Don't worry ! I wasn't even refering to Duc's feet - just for a general FYI regarding shoulder/pastern angles.

If his neck ties in low (which I say it does NOT), it would be more difficult for him to elevate in a self carrying light frame. He might not be so well suited for dressage/etc., if his neck were noticably low.

I still want to investigate his rump. It is a definate type I've seen and I want to identify the goods and bads about it. A flat croup is bad - his is not. But it's not dramtically sloping like others might be.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

*SERAPH*

Aug. 6, 2003, 07:02 AM

"Flatter" croup...not "flat" croup. Part of the reason the european registries have been so successful in creating their warmbloods, which have been generally based off of carriage type horses (as foundation stock) is because of the way these carriage horses were built. Powerful hindquarters, good feet and legs, an uphill build, and a more upright shoulder which contributed to their high, lofty action while trotting. That is why you can still see many warmbloods move with some knee action.How this contributes to jumpers is that horses who are a little less than 45% off the shoulder angle and do have some knee action tend to be able to naturally pick their front end off the ground quicker.

As far as hunters are concerned, I would suspect since they are expected to gallop in a forward, reaching stride (and jumping courses that are far less technical and with far less heigth in the fences)that one would be looking more for the very laid back shoulder. That would just be my guess though. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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DMK

Aug. 6, 2003, 09:10 AM

I think the h/j crew still finds a laid back shoulder to be a highly desirable thing. A laid back shoulder ties in deeply into the back, and that can never be a bad thing for a good range of motion in and through the shoulder. But there is some argument for scope being related to the angulation of the humerus to the scapula, but what you really want is a humerus to scapula angle that is a tad open in spite of the fact that that scapula is laid back, not because the scapula is upright.

But just for grins and giggles, I have a horse who is very upright, and one who has a classic hunter shoulder. One can get a piece of any hack. With the other one, we just joke that if they were only judging the shaky tails, he would be a hit. Naturally, the one with the upright shoulder is not the mover you think he should be. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Both are scope monsters, and both are a tad open in the humerus angle, but it is the one with the laid back shoulder and open angle that is the better jumping, scopier one.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Pocket Pony

Aug. 6, 2003, 09:50 AM

Parade...like I said, I need conformation lessons. What I think is appealing isn't something I can back up with facts or relate it to movement. I just like it. I think that Parade's feet do have something to do with what I don't like about her back end. Also, MT said she likes to see angulation in the hind limbs. As do I. I just don't see it on Parade...maybe I'm blind, or maybe it is the picture. It would have been helpful if someone put lines on her...

But she seems to be a lovely mare, and I'm glad you are having such a good time with her.

In the end, unless our horses are to be conformation show horses, I don't put too much weight into it. I know some hunters whose conformation I find quite ugly, yet they have the heart and scope and desire to go in and win. Likewise, I've seen some fancy horses, conformationally-speaking, who have no heart, hate their jobs, and seem miserable to ride.

In the end, it is the heart and mind that matter.

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

Anne

Aug. 6, 2003, 10:11 AM

"Part of the reason the european registries have been so successful in creating their warmbloods, which have been generally based off of carriage type horses (as foundation stock) is because of the way these carriage horses were built. Powerful hindquarters, good feet and legs, an uphill build, and a more upright shoulder which contributed to their high, lofty action while trotting. That is why you can still see many warmbloods move with some knee action.How this contributes to jumpers is that horses who are a little less than 45% off the shoulder angle and do have some knee action tend to be able to naturally pick their front end off the ground quicker."

Seraph, I'd like to refer you to a book called The American Show Jumping Style by George Morris. It's a fascinating discussion of American v. European techniques of show jumping, including their selection of horses. High lofty trot action does not necessarily translate into a good canter, which is the gait that horses jump fences from in the show ring. A slightly straighter shoulder might allow the warmblood jumper to get his front end out of the way easier when presented with the tight distance, but it has nothing to do with his ability to get his hind end out of the way. Also important IMO is the fact that knee action at the canter means more energy is going up than out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif This is part of why George believes that in the jump off, it's very difficult to beat an American thoroughbred, a good one at least.

*SERAPH*

Aug. 6, 2003, 10:32 AM

"But there is some argument for scope being related to the angulation of the humerus to the scapula, but what you really want is a humerus to scapula angle that is a tad open in spite of the fact that that scapula is laid back, not because the scapula is upright."

DMK--

No disagreement with you there! Actually was just reading back through some conformation info. and it was mentioned that the angle of the scapula is less important than the angle of the scapula in relation to the humerus and the length of the arm.

Anyone want to know where an excellent site is to study conformation, look up SCH part1. I've studied it intensely for the last couple of years and it has helped me understand many things. I do not, however, understand everything and I love to continue to learn. Great thread! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oldenburg Mom--

Post-legged is when a horse appears very straight-legged behind; the hock does fall under the point of the butt but the leg under the hock is very straight than having some angulation from the point of the hock to the pastern. But, again, your guy is standing uphill and that can have a lot to do with how a horse appears conformationally.

As far as his shoulder; his scapula is a tiny upright and could be a little longer. But Duc's scapula in relation to his humerus, the angulation between them, and the length of his arm suggests (to me) that he will be a big, forward mover who has the ability to do jumping well and with scope.

Flatter croup just means he's not as round through the topline as some warmbloods I've seen. True power in the hindquarters comes from the size and length and angulation of the pelvis and most especially through the loin connection. And I believe he is very good in both these areas!

Go check out that SCH part1 site I mentioned. There is a horse figure there with all the angles drawn out and gives an explanation of them.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 6, 2003, 10:42 AM

Seraph ...

Sorry. It's afternoon and I'm underdeadline here at *work* (sigh) I'm having a brain cramp.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Go check out that SCH part1 site I mentioned. There is a horse figure there with all the angles drawn out and gives an explanation of them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh?

The adventure has begun...
KT

*SERAPH*

Aug. 6, 2003, 11:23 AM

Oldenburg Mom--

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gifI'm the one that's brain dead today...been having some rough nights! Go to this site and read over it as well as check out the visuals. You can learn much here:

http://www.americantrakehner.com/SportHorse%20Conformation/SHCpart1.htm

I have found this site very enlightening!

Anne--

I would enjoy reading George Morris' book I believe very much. And I agree with you about the American Thoroughbred (or Thoroughbred) in general...I am a great lover of that breed!

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

MistyBlue

Aug. 6, 2003, 11:56 AM

Oldenburg Mom,
Thanks for sharing the baby picture of Le Duc! I can see his very handsome face and nicely shaped head was a gift from birth in that picture. What a face! And those joints of his are HUGE. Very beautiful baby!

Equine Crash Test Dummy

Coreene

Aug. 6, 2003, 04:01 PM

Dear Little Ducster,

I think I need to stop calling you "little," you are so big! What a very handsome photo, you are such a darling horse.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RugBug

Aug. 6, 2003, 04:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:

5. I am very interested in his rump/loin style. From my extraordinarily limited experience and knowledge, his butt is slightly smaller than I'd like. This is interesting as a comment in another thread on the Breeders' forum suggested that some Oldenburgs can be light in the 'engine' department.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oldenburg Mom,

Show, my Olderburg, seems light in the "engine" department. Hrmmmm...he's still young, but I don't think he will develop too much there.

I would like to offer him up for critique, and have a few good shots....

Looking at something (http://community.webshots.com/photo/80297309/83271411nfwQBD)

More where he holds his head normally (http://community.webshots.com/photo/80297309/84309388tMTodE)

Showing off his thin neck (http://community.webshots.com/photo/80297309/84309441EYmUfe)

If you guys want to look at him, please do. I will add any comments I can, but I'm sort of the "I like the whole package but can't tell you about the details" kinda girl. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

vineyridge

Aug. 6, 2003, 04:19 PM

Le Duc

Neck question

If you draw a line from the point of his elbow to the point of his shoulder, his neck is tied in right there.

Is that low?

What difference does it make?

To me it looks like he might be built slightly downhill, especially since he's on an uphill slant. To my eye, there is something odd about the proportions/length of his hindquarters compared to his front end. Of course the long legged hind might just be baby growing into his legs.

I wouldn't turn him down. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thread killer Extraordinaire

mcmIV

Aug. 6, 2003, 04:43 PM

DUC WITH LINES! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

These lines are only accurate if they're accurately placed. I took some of Dr. Deb's lines, but I also used instead some lines from my book, Clinical Anatomy and Common Disorders of the Horse.

IN particular, I drew lines in the rump per this book's specifications. An ideal butt should have a perfect isosceles triangle.

"THe triangle should be measured from the point of the hip, to the seam of the muscle [the big crease near the buttock], to the stifle joint and then back to the hip. The reasoning behind this is purely biomechanical, because the animal does not push forward off the hindquarters in a simple movement. The force is transmitetd upward through the bony column of the pastern, fetlock, hock and finally the stifle. This balanced chain of events moves the animal forward. ...any variation in this triangle results in a lesser degree of balance and a resultant loss of movement."

FOr further clarification - the the blue dot at the crease in the muscle is placed along the same angle as the thigh bone and ends at the crease. It was placed precisely. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So the BLUE lines are those from my book. THe RED are from Dr. Deb.

Now - it is EASY to vary in these angles 5-10 degrees when one is eyeballing this. I foudn his shoulder to be 50 and his pasterns to be 54. Pasterns are very dynamic and he might not be standing in his true angle.

Check these lines for now, and we can talk more. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 06, 2003 at 08:55 PM.]

Tom King

Aug. 6, 2003, 04:52 PM

I've been away for awhile and haven't caught up on reading this thread. Here is a link to the best short but complete treatise on conformation that I have read and I've made a good effort to read what is written on the subject.

http://www.americantrakehner.com/SportHorse%20Conformation/SHCpart1.htm

Print out all four parts. Study one part of the horse at the time and compare what it says to different horses. After a while it starts to jump out at you and you will be able to quickly evaluate any horse's conformation.

I have requested permission to reprint parts of published information on conformation and will have a new topic to post when I get these.

*SERAPH*

Aug. 6, 2003, 07:59 PM

Farmdad--

This is the site I referenced a little further back in the post and the one I have studied for the past 3 years! It really is so indepth. It has helped me tremendously in my conformation study.

Will never be through learning though! I still read it over and over and find out something new. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

sixpoundfarm

Aug. 7, 2003, 03:46 AM

This is a lengthy article published in The International Equine Journal.
A good read.
The International Equine Journa (http://www.theequinejournal.com/Resources/issue38/cphilart.html)

www.sixpoundfarm.com (http://www.sixpoundfarm.com)

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 7, 2003, 04:33 AM

Well first let me thank you, MCM.

You spent TIME drawing all those lines. Now, granted you're going to have to spend more time reviewing them all, but sweetie there's an old expression:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Actions speak louder than words. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please let me know if there is anything I can do for youin return for the effort you made. Kudos to you. And again, thank you. I don't know how many people would have done that for me that are FRIENDS (and family!)

I am printing the image out and looking at it, reviewing other parts of the thread. In the meantime here is a more recent picture of Duc ... taken August 2nd. He is trotting and yes, it was the best one. It may not be any good for this evaluation, but let's see.

Actually, this is the biggest issue I see and it may be the "yearling uglies": he has a weenie neck! It's totally out of proportion to the rest of his body, which look HUGE!

Is Duc Fat? Does he need to go to the horsie gym?

The adventure has begun...
KT

mcmIV

Aug. 7, 2003, 05:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Is Duc Fat? Does he need to go to the horsie gym? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I will admit, the placement of the dot on his hip was pure speculation. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif The true location of his hip - is anyone's guess..... hehehe

KT - I imagine that due to his age, his generous padding will even out when he hits a growth spurt. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Baby fat, if you will. At least he won't be boney when he puts on an inch or two!

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

Kinsella

Aug. 7, 2003, 05:49 AM

Oldenburg Mom - Le Duc looks GREAT!!!

Can I post a picture of his future girlfriend for critique? She is a yearling Oldenburg (GOV) filly bred for jumping instead of dressage... Can I? Can I? Please???

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

jilltx

Aug. 7, 2003, 05:57 AM

Again, Oldenburg Mom, he's a beauty! I remember his baby photo posted on another BB I think last year or so?? Anyway, he is lovely and looks to be a nice mover as well. I am positively GREEN with envy!

~Jilltx

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 7, 2003, 06:12 AM

Kinsell & Jilltx

Thanks guys. You're very kind. And you've made me smile, big time.

MCM - Ohhhhh. I cut back on his feed. He's fat, huh? Is that why his neck looks so ... weenie?

The adventure has begun...
KT

Le Duc

Aug. 7, 2003, 06:17 AM

MAMA COREEENE!

I miss you. I have been sad without Willem so I didn't open my toplap.

FAT? <Duc is seen spluttering oats everywhere> FAT? I'M NOT FAT. Mr. TacoBell (my new neigh-bor) HE's FAT. I'm ... muscular.

<CrunchCrunchCrunchoats ... "Fat?" ... "me?" ... "DummyMomwhatdoessheknow" ... more oats dribble from his mouth>

DRTIM .... heeeeeelllp.

Le Duc de Willem
(but you can call me Duc-ster)

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 7, 2003, 06:47 AM

From the Trakehner/Conformation site ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The single most important structural element is the back at the coupling, the lumbo-sacral joint. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this accurate? Or is this opinion?

And where is it (underneath the croup, right?)

The adventure has begun...
KT

DMK

Aug. 7, 2003, 07:14 AM

It's opinion, but judging by the amount of time, money, angst, vet care, high tech machinery, physical therapy, alternative therapy, traditional therapy and overall training/gymnastics we give to improving the quality or maintaining the good health of that joint, it's a damn good opinion.

But of course just because it looks good conformation-wise doesn't mean a whole lot once you start working the horse. Plenty of horses with A+ S-I/toplines have problems with it. And of course you have those weak/poor topline horses that go out and win everything with little maintenance.

But you always shoot for the better conformation when breeding. The horse with a quality topline is less likely to have these issues, whereas the horse with the poorer topline is less likely not to have issues.

The Lumbro-sacral joint refers to the area where the pelvis joins the vertebral column - in front of that joint the vertebrae are lumbral vertabrae (forward to the last rib), behind they are sacral vertebrae/sacrum. Also included is the sacro-iliac joint (S-I) which is the joint at the croup and pelvis. Here is a decent picture of the joint.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

[This message was edited by DMK on Aug. 07, 2003 at 11:24 AM.]

[This message was edited by DMK on Aug. 07, 2003 at 11:31 AM.]

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 7, 2003, 07:25 AM

OK DMK.

Then let me ask this question... and PLEASE BE specific:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>What, EXACTLY, is a/the topline.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>In a yearling, for example, would you do ANYTHING to "improve" it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, for the 50 bazillionth time, I am not being a smartalec or trying to cause any arguments. I honestly don't SPECIFICALLY know what the term accurately means.

Yes, I can make a guess ... e.g., top (top of the horse) line ... (the line from ears to butt.) But that doesn't really *tell* me anything.

The adventure has begun...
KT

mcmIV

Aug. 7, 2003, 07:35 AM

OK. I have to point out - I've browsed the Trakh site link (but not with any focus yet), I've seen responses - but seeing line drawings of cow hocks and reading things like "The single most important structural element is the back at the coupling, the lumbo-sacral joint." is NOT HELPING! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

If someone thinks Duc has a good example of lumbo-sacral coupling, or a weak example - explain! Tell us WHY - ie: "the distance from __ to __ should be equal", " the slant of the ___ shouldnt more than ___",etc.

According to the lines - he has a pretty decent butt in terms of stregnth from hip to thigh to stifle, etc. He is a baby with plenty of meat - I don't think the size of his butt is directly meaningful to it's potential power right now.

Oh, and according to the lines, he is well balanced over his topline - nearly level - and it evidences the good set of his neck. But this could change when his butt hits a growth spurt and his shoulder hangs out in yearlingdom for a couple months! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

DMK

Aug. 7, 2003, 07:50 AM

The topline is just that, the line of the horse from the ears to the tail. Yes, I AM being a smart ass... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Now what is a good topline is a whole different ballgame.

First and foremost a topline should be evaluated against the breed standard. Not all toplines are created equal. What makes a good cutting horse does not necessarily make a good gaited horse does not necessarily make a good jumper. Breeds have evolved to do specific tasks, and their conformation generally reflects this (at least it does if they are good examples of the breed). It's fine to diss a QH horse for not having the topline you expect in a hanoverian, but the reverse holds true when its time to evaluate for short burst of speed and quick turns.

Second, a topline should be evaluated for balance - the old 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 or something close to that. Regardless of the shape of his croup and wither, it should be of adequate proportions. And to make it very confusing, a lot of different shapes still have good balance.

A close third is the smoothness of the wither/croup tie in. I think this is the hardest thing for beginners to quickly pick up on, but this is where it starts to matter. Most every horse is proportional and meets a rough approximation of the breed standard. Not many horses tie in smoothly and meet the above two requirements. A smooth tie in is exactly that - you don't see rough coupling or abrupt endings in the topline. Some of this is due to good muscling, but much of it is attributed to a L-S joint that is set forward and a wither which ties back further into the back region.

I'll look for some pics that show extremes of all things.

As for a baby, a horse is born with what he has, and you can't do anything but optimize it except through proper work, avoiding injury and good nutrition. It's not a great idea to work a baby (that is different from "exercising"!), but you can make sure they have good food and plenty of proper land to play on. In an ideal world this would be good pasture without steep hills or muddy spots and lots of similarly aged playmates, but we don't live in an ideal world, so you do the best you can to imitate those conditions.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

DMK

Aug. 7, 2003, 07:57 AM

It's the obvious, but here is a pretty good example of not really meeting the breed standard:

First, here is a picture of Wapiti, pretty much the epitome of what an App should look like during the 60/70's:

It's also worth pointing out that his topline is very good, and very smooth.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

DMK

Aug. 7, 2003, 07:58 AM

Now here is a picture of my first horse, a wonderful animal. But not exactly what the app club had in mind...

There are a couple things worth noting. First, he isn't really the app ideal, second, he lacks balance. More like 1/4 1/2 1/4 than 1/3 all the way. Third, he has a VERY rough tie in at the croup. It dips then rises abruptly to the coup, then drops off steep afterwords. And it is very short from croup to tail. All Not Good.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 7, 2003, 08:07 AM

DMK ... remember, I don't know what I'm looking at.

The toplines in both .... well, Wapiti looks smooth from ears to tail. Joker's look smooth, but his whithers are higher (?) so of course it's not going to be just a straight line.

If I look at Duc's it looks pretty smooth. His whithers are not sticking up. If I look at his trot picture it's almost flat... he only has a little dip just in front of his whithers ... and of course his head is up.

Did I geddit?

The adventure has begun...
KT

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 7, 2003, 08:10 AM

MCM ---

Could you see any difference in Duc between the two photos?

For me, again, the weenie neck is what I notice right off the bat. And, that seems to happen with yearlings... right?

BTW, what's the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3?

The adventure has begun...
KT

DMK

Aug. 7, 2003, 08:22 AM

KT, think of it this way... If you were a skateboarder zipping down the withers of the 2nd horse, when you hit that croup, do you think you might zip right off the 2nd horse's butt? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

If you were zipping down Wapiti's withers, chances are when you hit the croup line you would stick with the horse's topline right on through to the tail. That would be smooth. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 7, 2003, 08:24 AM

DMK ...

THAT'S A GREAT EXAMPLE!

NOW I understand. It's not that it isn't contiguous...it's a question of degrees. RIght?

The adventure has begun...
KT

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 08:29 AM

Oldenburg Mom--

As I said before, I believe your Ducster is a very well put together 17 month old colt. He's very balanced but still has a lot of physical immaturity. I believe he is a little croup high right now and will probably go through more of the same before he is fully mature.

As I mentioned before, he is a tad straight in the shoulder but at an acceptable degree. His angle from the peak of the withers to the point of the shoulder to the point of the elbow is less than 90 degrees. This gives him more of an upright shoulder: advantages...the bone is more mobile and can rotate to the front of the chest more fully. It allows for a higher knee action and is essential if the jumper is able to clear large obstacles. Some diadvantages...interference to the front from the hind, and front end gaits in all movements has less foreward scope. (I did say earlier that I thought he would have a lot of foreward scope, but after further analysis, I believe it is reduced somewhat. Not to the extent that he will not be able to go to the upper levels of dressage and jumping, mind you! He will be far better at collection than at extension, imo.)

Also note; he has nice sloping, defined withers but they could lie farther back behind the elbow; the farther behind the elbow the greater scope of the forelimbs.

The ideal loin (seen from the side) is a triangular area whose apex is the vertebra where the last ribs join the spine, and whose base is a line joining the points of the hips. This area should be short from front to back, broad across, convex, smooth, and be of a firm elasticity. I think this colt has wonderful connection and a lot of power in the rear. He's very strong in the back. I do think, since he is so young and hasn't been in work, that his muscles are tight. Which is part of the reason he's not as loose and foreward and he will have the capacity to be.

His neck is tied in a little low but not so much so that he should have any real difficulties.

Again, in time, fully mature, I believe he will be quite an impressive, athletic stallion! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

DMK

Aug. 7, 2003, 08:43 AM

Here are some more examples of smooth versus rough:

Exceptional topline, exceptional everything,classic Northern Dancer look:

Pulpit (http://www.claibornefarm.com/stallions/pulpit/family.html)

Exceptional in a different way (he is not as sooth as Pulpit, but he has exceptional strength in that hind end - also it is a good example of a different but acceptable topline within a breed as diverse as a TB):

Point Given (http://www.threechimneys.com/PointGiven/conformation.html)

Here is a smooth topline (I will reserve commment on how his neck ties in).

Pioneering (http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/sronline/pdfs/pioneering.pdf)

Here is a not so smooth topline (not horrible, but not great). He's a good example of a horse who has classic breed type (TB), above average balance (he fits in the 1/3 range) but that topline is just a bit ragged. Even though he has nice pastern angulation, and his shoulder isn't bad at all, it just doesn't tie back far enough on his back. And his croup is definitely set back too far, but it also is very rough just in front of the L-S joint. Now most of this can probably be explained by the fact that he is a young horse who did not race, and therefore had no opportunity to build a good topline. Fat and muscle hides faults, and he has neither.

power storm (http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/sronline/pdfs/powerstorm.pdf)

The attached picture is of a TB horse who breaks most of the records. He is very upright through the pasterns, but yet his shoulder ties waaaay back (not your usual connection). He also has a very nice smooth topline with a huge hip, especially when you consider he was thin and unworked in this picture. His neck is another story. It certainly isn't my ideal (it's an OK shape, but ties in too low). I went ahead and bought him because he is an awesome mover. (Who'd a thunk it? and he rides like his neck came out of his shoulder about 4" higher. Again, who'd a thunk it?)

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

DMK

Aug. 7, 2003, 08:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
DMK ...

THAT'S A GREAT EXAMPLE!

NOW I understand. It's not that it isn't contiguous...it's a question of degrees. RIght?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right. And abruptness. If things have peaks and valleys that come up abruptly, it's probably not "smooth". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 09:09 AM

I would like to make note that if you want to easily be able to see if your horse is laid back in the wither, first look at the wither in relation to the elbow...the further behind the elbow the withers are the greater scope they will have. When people say 'he's very laid back in the shoulder', this is what they are referring to. (Important to note, however, that though the shoulder (scapula) may be very laid back, if the scapula ties into the humerus and creates a closed angle, this will actually result in the horse having less scope, and a choppy stride.)

Also, another easy way to make sure your horse (mechanically speaking) should have enough scope is by drawing a line from the horse's wither to the point of the shoulder, and then straight back up (dissecting through the horse's upper topline. The line drawn straight up should come up in FRONT of the withers. Of course, other factors do determine scope but this one is quite important.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 7, 2003, 09:10 AM

Seraph -

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>...that his muscles are tight <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH, my goodness. All this information is starting to really come together.

One of the consistent comments on his tests has been "needs more swing in his back" How can he swing in his back if his muscles are tight.

SURPRISE!

The adventure has begun...
KT

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 7, 2003, 09:13 AM

BTW, I hope other people reading this are learning as much as I am.

The adventure has begun...
KT

Kinsella

Aug. 7, 2003, 09:31 AM

I am learning tons!! I am dying to put my girlie up here - even though I think she may not be as lovely as I thought she was... I don't think she is as attractive as Le Duc, but I am seeing more and more stuff!! I just need to know if it's good or bad!

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 09:55 AM

Oldenburg Mom--

Yes! It all seems overwhelming at first but it begins to come together over a period of time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I will say one can never learn enough!!!

And yes, he has a very good and tight loin connection; which means that it will take training (especially under saddle) to loosen those muscles up. That is why my guy moves with some tightness through his back; he's got a very good loin connection and he has had no training either.

Another note--

Quote:

"The "ideal" riding horse is rectangular, with the body length about 10% greater than the height. It has a back of medium length, in which the thoracic vetebrae (which carry the ribs and are both longitudinally and laterally flexible)account for most of its length."

And...

"Young horses, especially warmbloods which may mature late, are sometimes seen to be higher in the croup than at the withers. At this stage in developement they may move poorly, picking up the hind legs in a stiff manner with insufficient flexion of the stifles and hocks. As the structure becomes more balanced the loin, stifles, and hocks will show an increased range of movement, and the hindquarter will be able to engage more effectively."

And...

"A horse is said to be 'close-coupled' (sometimes described as having a 'good connection' when there is a short and firm connection between the withers and the croup, primarily the result of a short loin."

And lastly...

"The signs of (muscle) ring function are:
*engaging the hindquarters;
*rounding the back;
*arching and reaching of the neck."

All quotes from Dr. Robert Baird whose sporthorse thesis you can find on
www.americantrakehner.com (http://www.americantrakehner.com)

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

jilltx

Aug. 7, 2003, 09:59 AM

Reading...learning...emjoying.

I have another question...in the second photo of the App I believe owned by DMK, would it be safe to say that the horse has a weak hip/loin connection? I'd like to discuss Point Given a bit more. His topline bothers me. WHile he may have a nice engine, I really don't like the way his neck and withers come together. If I were skateboarding along that topline, I would certainly catch some air after hitting that huge dip and rise. Is that correct? I'm certainly not trying to dis an obviously nice horse, just trying to learn. Why exactly do most people not like a dip in the withers anyway? I've known plenty of successful TBs with this trait.

~Jilltx

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 11:21 AM

jilltx--

Yes, the pic of DMK's App has a very weak loin connection as well as a short croup. Which is why I believe she was showing the pic; to show the difference in toplines, especially in coupling. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Point Given has a neck that appears, to me, to be on the short side. It is also not very well set on...at least as far as the sporthorse disciplines are concerned. His withers are also quite flat as opposed to being sloping. While he's balanced and not built exactly downhill, he doesn't rise through his topline as we like to see sporthorses do because it enables them to bring the body up and go on the bit far easier. This "uphillness" enables them to carry themselves more lightly on the forehand and bring the hindquarters under the body. To round the body, so to speak...

Have to remember (and that is why conformation study and the mechanics behind it are so important) that Point Given was bred to be a racehorse. He was bred to stick his neck out, extend over a large amount of ground, and have the power in those massive hindquarters and fabulous loin connection to push himself straight forward. Our sporthorses are asked to move in an entirely different way and that is why knowing what kind of conformation to look for in a sporthorse (depending on the discipline) is very important.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 12:26 PM

I don't know as much about dressage (not nearly) as I do about showjumping...jumpers, not hunters.

But the KWPN stallion, Iroko, comes about as close to perfection (as far as jumper conformation) as I can find. That's my opinion, of course! The only thing that would bother me a little about him is that his pasterns look pretty upright on the fore and the hind as well as a little on the short side. But if I could have one stallion in all the world (aside from little ASB guy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), Iroko would be in my top five to choose from. Check this site out and see what you guys think of his conformation:

http://www.dutchbreedersna.com/Stallions/Iroko/Iroko.htmse

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Kinsella

Aug. 7, 2003, 12:54 PM

SERAPH - Iroko is gorgeous (I agree about the pasterns) but I don't like the way he jumps. I want one that has the perfect conformation and perfect form. I've put up a side by side of him and another stallion to show what I mean...

(i did watch the video and he most definitely has the scope and power, just not the perfect form that i personally prefer)

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

Anne

Aug. 7, 2003, 12:55 PM

Iroko is not standing square to the camera in that picture. If he were, I would hazard a guess that his back is longer than my ideal. *I* personally do not care for the way his neck ties in, but I am a hunter rider and look for a long neck that ties in level or just above.

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 01:15 PM

Kinsella--

Wow! What a cute pic of that jumper...got his knees up to his ears. Looks like he's playing peek-a-boo over the fence! Yeah, Iroko has a scopey powerful form over fences but doesn't seem to have that perfect bascule and drawn up knees. I really love Balubet du Rouet and Nonix le Parc (Aaron Vale's great New Zealand Thoroughbred) as well...check out these photos of BdR--wish they had a conformation photo:

http://www.rodrigopessoa.com.br/

Anne--

Please post the best conformation pic you have of a really good hunter. This is great learning for me as I get to see the differences in the conformation from discipline to discipline...

And if anyone has a great pic of the (standing) conformation of a dressage horse I would love to see that as well!

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Kinsella

Aug. 7, 2003, 01:28 PM

Seraph - Here is a picture of that stallion at 19... He is my perfect jumping stallion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

Kinsella

Aug. 7, 2003, 01:39 PM

And here is a conformation/jump photo of a very well known and loved hunter stallion... The conformation shot isn't my favorite, but it was the best I could find without doing a major search.

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

Kinsella

Aug. 7, 2003, 01:45 PM

And I swear I will stop with this one... It is a shot of the previous stallion (the jumper) and a yearling filly sired by him. Think he is prepotent? And what good/bad did he pass on conformationally?

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 01:57 PM

Kinsella--

Absolutely love that hunter stallion's conformation! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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DMK

Aug. 7, 2003, 02:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jilltx:
Reading...learning...emjoying.

I have another question...in the second photo of the App I believe owned by DMK, would it be safe to say that the horse has a weak hip/loin connection? I'd like to discuss Point Given a bit more. His topline bothers me. WHile he may have a nice engine, I really don't like the way his neck and withers come together. If I were skateboarding along that topline, I would certainly catch some air after hitting that huge dip and rise. Is that correct? I'm certainly not trying to dis an obviously nice horse, just trying to learn. Why exactly do most people not like a dip in the withers anyway? I've known plenty of successful TBs with this trait.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exceedingly weak loin and back. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif A great first horse 25 years ago, but ever so not ideal in conformation.

Point Given has a less than ideal neck (short and ties in low - both traits are seen in Mr. Prospectors), but I do evaluate necks separate from toplines. I don't weigh one over the other, just seperately. And because he has a low set neck it dips a bit in front of the withers, but still ties back nicely behind the withers. But he is an example of fitting in the rectangle, not in the square (Pulpit fills the square). Still his hind end conformation indicates he may well have the ability to coil and extend as well as show speed.

True sprinter conformation shows up in a straight hind, not one with more angulation. He shows more angulation than you would expect from a sprinter (as evidenced by his race record as well).

I like Iroko, but I agree he's a tad long through the back, and I have seen good jumping scores associated with a style of jumping that is very round but still has the horse rolling over his shoulder. I'm not sure if that is representative of the style (but I'm inclined to think if you say he scored a 9 in jumping and publish a picture like that, that's the way he jumps on a good day!) but a horse that rolls over his shoulder - even if he is round - doesn't have any appeal to me.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 02:08 PM

He's a lovely stallion (the jumper) and that filly's conformation I actually like better than the stallion's. But definitely prepotent! She definitely got his best traits! His back is a little longer than I like, but he obviously has a good loin connection and much engine in the back; his neck is very thick at the throatlatch and appears a little short to me.. The filly's neck looks like it might have a little thickness at the throatlatch and a tad shorter than I like but other than that I can't complain. She looks like she could easily follow in Papa's hoofprints! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Kinsella

Aug. 7, 2003, 02:35 PM

My fingers are crossed that she jumps as well as he does!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

OK, I have finally sat down and written what I see in each of the stallions (and the filly). Tell me how I did!

Iroko: short, upright pasterns; thick throatlatch; pastern/shoulder angles do not match (and with his shoulder I would think he would jump more like the other stallion!); great loin, very strong; good hindquarter, powerful; I don't think he is long through the back, but that's just me... (and I personally don't like his small ears - but I am a freak like that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Jumper: thick throatlatch and short neck; his loin is longer than Iroko's, but still strong; I love his hindquarter; his shoulder is more upright; I think he is long through the back.

Hunter (and I am only looking at this conf. photo - not what I know he looks like now): the first thing I notice is how unbalanced he looks from front to back; his head neck and shoulder are very well developed; his loin is good, but his overall hindquarter is not very strong.

Yearling: thick throatlatch; not long enough neck; long body; short pasterns and 'rough' fetlocks (where they meet); ok loin; weak hindquarter, but she is just a yearling; I LOVE her shoulder and how her neck ties in. And things you can't see, but I know are there: she has slightly offset knees and a tendency to toe in a little.

OK, am I even a little on the mark or do I have miles to go????

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

[This message was edited by Kinsella on Aug. 07, 2003 at 07:19 PM.]

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 03:15 PM

Ok--

Any other comments on Kinsella's filly? Are we moving on???

mcmIV?

Love this conformation thread!

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

jilltx

Aug. 7, 2003, 03:16 PM

color me silly...so then the neck is not considered part of the topline? I feel so confused and conflicted...but I'm learning...I'm learning. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

PS...I have a friend who has had two Iroko offspring in the past two years (only one that I have seen) and she just LOVES them.

~Jilltx

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 03:22 PM

jilltx--

For sporthorse conformation I would consider the neck pretty important to include with topline.

But maybe DMK is talking about race horse conformation as opposed to sporthorse..not sure. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Kinsella

Aug. 7, 2003, 03:38 PM

OK, here is Mumsy - both sides. She is a 13 month old Oldenburg (GOV) filly. Her sire was a jumper and her dam has eventing and dressage bloodlines. And yes, these were taken in the same photo shoot!

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

[This message was edited by Kinsella on Aug. 07, 2003 at 08:25 PM.]

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 04:24 PM

Kinsella--

Obviously it's just you and me! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

You did very well in your assessments as far as I am concerned. Here's where I disagreed about a little:

Iroko--I really didn't find his throatlatch overly thick though he could be a little more refined in that area (and all the way around). I agree that he is not long through the back. I really didn't see that his shoulder/pastern angles were off..will have to go back and look.

Jumper--I agree.

Hunter--I personally think he is very balanced. I didn't think his back was too long. I don't necessarily equate heavily muscled hindquarters with strength...many horses have longer leaner muscling. To me, the loin connection and pelvis angles/lengths have more to do with sufficient power. Of course muscle is necessary! I thought he had a very good loin connection and that his hind end matched his front and his overall build.

Filly--I really think that her back does not look long in the second pic. Maybe med/long but not long. And very good loin connection. She looks a little light in the hind-end but she's also very young. She's quite balanced for being croup high! She has a nice laid back shoulder. Her cannons look on the lengthy side to me. Her fetlocks appear "swollen"...something a little unusual about them to me but not sure.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Anne

Aug. 7, 2003, 04:27 PM

Seraph, I am not a premium member so I cannot post pictures without directly linking to a website, which would reveal who the horse is.

I think Viscount and Zarr are particularly well conformed hunter stallions. They can be seen at www.wariotofarminc.com (http://www.wariotofarminc.com) under stallions. I am NOT suggesting that we critique them; they are both the sire of enough outstanding hunter offspring that they do not need our "help"! Keep in mind that the conformation photo of Viscount was taken as an aged horse.

Kinsella

Aug. 7, 2003, 04:27 PM

OK, I am having an argument with the computer... I am re-posting the pictures of Mumsy seperately...

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

Kinsella

Aug. 7, 2003, 04:29 PM

The other side... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

Essie

Aug. 7, 2003, 04:47 PM

I'm really enjoying this thread and I'm learning a lot. Let me know when you're ready and I'll repost the link to my mare. I'm interested in what people have to say.

Essie http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

www.Dresscore.com (http://www.dresscore.com)
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Transitioning Dressage to the Computer</pre>

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 04:53 PM

Anne--

Thank you for posting the pics of the hunter stallions. All I will say is that I can definitely see the difference in hunter conformation as it has evolved! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 04:54 PM

Essie--

I'm ready! Is everyone else?

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

just_me

Aug. 7, 2003, 05:01 PM

I would love to post a picture of my TB. I know very little about conformation, and I'm really curious to hear what people say about his.

I just started reading this thread, so am I supposed to wait to post it, or should I just do it?

thanks.

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 05:04 PM

just me--

I believe that Essie is next. But I didn't start this thread so don't know if I should say. What does everyone else think?

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Essie

Aug. 7, 2003, 05:07 PM

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL16/731393/2506913/30409309.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL16/731393/2506913/30409266.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL16/731393/2506913/30409379.jpg

In the picture, Essie is a 3 year old TrakX mare. I'm planning on using her as a dressage horse. She is now 4 years old and I'm showing her in dressage schooling shows. I have under saddle pictures if they are needed.
(These pictures are used with the permission of Lori Harrison, 2002)

Essie

www.Dresscore.com (http://www.dresscore.com)
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Transitioning Dressage to the Computer</pre>

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 05:29 PM

Essie--

First off, your mare has a very lovely coat and appears in very good condition!

Your mare has a rectangular build (body is longer) than height, which is good. Her shoulder has a good angle to it but her withers could tie in a little further back for added scope. Her neck appears a little short but is nicely made and ties in well. She appears that she was not finished growing so her withers are probably lower in this pic (as compared to the croup). Needless to say, she has a nice balance.

Her pasterns have adequate slope but are on the short side. However, if she is meant for dressage this is not a tremendous concern because hind-end correctness is far more important in dressage. Her back is med.long; a little more on the longish side. But her loin connection ties in well to a very nice hind quarter. Can't say much is wrong with the hind-end at all! Her stifle is well let down for dressage; it's closer to the same level as the elbow.

I think she is a lovely mare who has much power in her hind-quarter. I do think she will find extension and lateral movements easier than collection. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

mcmIV

Aug. 7, 2003, 07:00 PM

I updated the topic for ESSIE!

Shes very cute, BTW. My first glance comment is that shes a little long - but nothing else pops out at me off the bat.

I need to read the last couple pages more carefully - but I see a lot of "nice loin connection", etc. But I've seen NO explaination of what that REALLY means.

In fact, none of my books seems to explain it either. WHAT is nice about it? Can we get a precise rule of thumb, even if its breed or sport specific?!

I'm all for having an "eye" for a good horse - but when you're looking at unfit, scrawny, under or over weight horses - you need to know WHY a connection is good, so you can see the greatness beneath the dirty packaging. What are relationships to look for - angles, legnths, slopes, etc.

I need a rest now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

*SERAPH*

Aug. 7, 2003, 07:58 PM

mcmIV--

For the answer to your questions, you really need to read the site I'm going give you the address to. I have found no other sporthorse conformational analysis on the internet that is so indepth and explanatory. For the specifics on loin connection and how to see it, go to this site and click on PartII; scroll down to the highlighted areas where the body is broken down and click on the 'back and croup'. Make sure as you are reading that you click on the figure examples given. I would recommend printing out the figure examples so that you can refer to them often as the information is quite extensive.

http://www.americantrakehner.com/SportHorse%20Conformation/SHCpart1.htm

I have found it very enlightening! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 8, 2003, 03:29 AM

BTW,

THANK YOU ... ALL for your comments on the Ducster. I have learned TONS and appreciate all the time and effort.

This is a GREAT thread MCM and you were wise beyond your years to start it.

KUDOS! BRAVO! WELL DONE!

The adventure has begun...
KT

Essie

Aug. 8, 2003, 05:38 AM

Thank you for your comments Seraph. Essie is a very good girl. Your comments about extension and collection are interesting. She is showing a talent for medium canter and she hasn't been asked the question yet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif The collection question won't be answered for a couple of years yet as I don't plan on pushing her training. Lateral work is extremely easy for her; to the point that straightness can be an issue.
I am very interested in everyone's comments and I won't take offense. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Essie

www.Dresscore.com (http://www.dresscore.com)
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Transitioning Dressage to the Computer</pre>

*SERAPH*

Aug. 8, 2003, 06:55 AM

Essie--

No, thank you for the opportunity! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifForgot how much I love the study of conformation; and Anne was right about being able to predict the way a horse will move according to their conformation. One should be able to do that. She opened my eyes with that comment and now I am going on to that aspect of sporthorse mechanics!

Other comments on Essie's mare?

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Kinsella

Aug. 8, 2003, 07:20 AM

I agree with what you have said Seraph. She is a lovely mare, a bit long, but overall very nice. I wouldn't kick her out of my barn!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

DMK

Aug. 8, 2003, 07:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
For sporthorse conformation I would consider the neck pretty important to include with topline.

But maybe DMK is talking about race horse conformation as opposed to sporthorse..not sure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, once you start giving oral and written arguments on conformation, and more importantly, placing a series of horses, you learn to break up the horse in a series of "parts", generally in decreasing order of importance. Although as long as the fault is serious, it immediately can bump up higher over less serious faults that rank "higher" in the hierarchy. For instance a horse with very bad front end conformation, but perfect everyplace else might place lower than a horse with less than slightly less than perfect balance. But a horse with a complete lack of balance should place lower than a horse with bad hind end conformation (assuming both horses are sound).

It's not a perfect system but it provides a very good basis from which to evaluate horses and more importantly understand WHY the person placed them this way so you can form your own opinions as to how you rank those issues. Because at the end of the day it is often comes down to several different but not wrong opinions based on personal preferance.

Usually this goes along the lines (more or less) of type, balance, topline, hip-shoulder, neck, front end, hind end, head, overall impression. (Some people put head before neck so they talk "down the horse's line" but it's understood that the ranking is still in this order.)

And yes, the line of the neck on the top is part of the topline, but "topline" generally refers more to the smoothness of that line, not the shape of the neck or the balance of the horse (although they are closely related). So a horse could have a well shaped neck that would create a pleasing topline, but it might be shorter than desired, or he might be thick in the throatlatch, so those things need to be noted, but not as part of the topline discussion.

It's a great way to evaluate conformation because it gives order when comparing individuals and forces you to think about the horse in a most important to least important methodology.

For instance if you were evaluating a (hypothetical) horse you would quickly make this checklist:

Breed type - meets breed type standard

balance - above average, but fits more into a rectangle than a box, back is longer than my preference, but still within balance standards.

topline - shoulder ties back nicely, but horse is rough through the croup - effect is accentuated by hunter's bump.

hip - overall length of hip is average, but I would prefer to see the S-L joint more forward.

shoulder - one of this horse's best features, laid back, lots of wither definition, but not excessive, acceptable 90 degree humerus to scapula angle.

neck - excellent top length as compared to bottom, great definition through throatlatch, ties in well, but not too upright with body. It's a hair short to be called truly excellent, but it is a very good neck.

front end - correct front end with good symmetrical feet, notably, muscling of forearm ties in low. My only concern is that he is somewhat light of bone, but this is within the acceptable range of the breed standard.

hind end - Essentially good hind end conformation, with moderate but not excessive angulation. Slightly toed out in both hind feet but tracks correctly. Muscling on gaskin could tie in lower, but given how well it ties in low up front this may just be a development/work issue.

head - within breed type standard, notably, eyes are large and set well part. Length from ear to jaw is longer than preferred, but muzzle and jaw are well shaped, giving a pleasing look.

overall impression - the horse presents an overall positive picture, he is truly pleasing from the withers forward. He presents above average balance, although I would evaluate his performance and way of going in light of the hunter's bump, shorter croup than average and less than optimal muscling through the gaskin.

If you were judging several individuals at once, you would also make notes about why you ranked them the way you did. Because your #2 placed horse is not going to be 100% inferior to your #1 horse, so you learn to note exactly where #2 is superior but why you placed #1 over him. Ideally that hierarchy will show up in your placings.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

jilltx

Aug. 8, 2003, 07:40 AM

Very nice mare and obviously well cared for! You should be very proud of your girl, she's lovely!

~Jilltx

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"

*SERAPH*

Aug. 8, 2003, 08:01 AM

DMK--Thanks for the clarification.

So whose next? I'm ready! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Pocket Pony

Aug. 8, 2003, 09:35 AM

SERAPH, will you go back to page 3 and tell me what you think about Mickey? I think you joined the conversation after we finished with him...

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

Kinsella

Aug. 8, 2003, 09:40 AM

And when you finish with Mickey, I have about 8 million conformation photographs of different horses & I'll be happy to post a few for critique!!

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

RugBug

Aug. 8, 2003, 10:13 AM

I would like to offer Show up for critique, and have a few good shots....

http://community.webshots.com/photo/80297309/83271411nfwQBD

http://community.webshots.com/photo/80297309/84309388tMTodE

http://community.webshots.com/photo/80297309/84309441EYmUfe

If you guys want to look at him, please do. I will add any comments I can, but I'm sort of the "I like the whole package but can't tell you about the details" kinda girl. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

WEll, here's my guy again. I don't want to butt in so tell me to wait and I will. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

EventGurlie

Aug. 8, 2003, 10:51 AM

I also have some conformation photos of my mare that i would love to have critiqued to add in to the list of who to critique. Just let me know whne youre ready for them!!

~Nicole~

*SERAPH*

Aug. 8, 2003, 12:56 PM

Ok, Batgirl, ready?--

Mickey looks like a very classically handsome Thoroughbred. He has a lot of class!

He has a long, larger head which is still refined and compliments his classic lines very much. I don't particularly care for short, light heads on horses; especially large ones! This pic was taken with him standing downhill; however, I can still see that he has an uphill build and is very balanced. He also has a rectangular build.

This guy has an appropriate length of neck which shows good spacing in the throatlatch. His neck is nicely muscled and his topline is smooth. I believe his neck ties in very well to his sloping, laid back withers, but ties in a lttle low beneath. Seems to be fairly common, doesn't it?

Mickey has a nice, long shoulder; his humerus to shoulder angle is good and the length very good. I would think this guy has scopey, long strides with spring in his step!

This guy is definitely leggy.Good length to forearm; I would like to see larger knees on this guy because he has such a large body to support. They look to be sufficient, however. He appears over at the knee; but this supposedly is not a bad trait to have as a jumper as it is easier for them to fold their legs up quicker. His cannons are too long and his pasterns are likewise. He has a little too much slope to the pasterns but that is partly due to the underslung heels this guy has.

This guy has a lot of body and stands over quite a bit of ground. His ribs are well-sprung and he has much depth in the girth. Also note that he has excellent corresponding depth in the groin. This horse can carry some weight! His back is med.long and ties smoothly into a good strong convex loin. The connection could be a little shorter but with as much groin under this horse I think it all comes together well. The crop is long and slopes down to a muscled hindquarter. The pelvis is large and long...flexion in the L-S joint is the main cause of bascule, and the longer the pelvic bone, the more leverage can be developed.

Femur could be longer but if this a Thoroughbred, many times they are deliberately bred for a shorter femur so that they can coil the hind-end faster. But is still a very decent length. It ties very well into a short, strong, gaskin. The hocks are sufficiently large, he is rather straight on down. However, if he is a jumper of any kind straight hind-legs would make him very powerfully efficient.

I will take a gamble--equitation horse? Hunter? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

*SERAPH*

Aug. 8, 2003, 12:59 PM

Kinsella, I'll be happy to critique away! I'm learning so much myself...it is a neverending study and I find it fascinating. I do think RugBug posted her horse a page or two back so we should probably do hers next.

And anyone else can critique too!!! WHEW! Gotta go take a break... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Kinsella

Aug. 8, 2003, 01:10 PM

I'll hold off posting any more until tomorrow. I'll also do some critiques tomorrow - time to go home now!!!

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

RugBug

Aug. 8, 2003, 02:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:

And anyone else can critique too!!! WHEW! Gotta go take a break... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would, but I would end up sounding like an idiot. I am sitting here reading it all, trying to learn all I can. I learned a ton from the hoof thread and used it while talking to the farrier for Show's first shoeing under my care. I actually sounded like I knew something! Yippee! Hopefully this thread will do the same for me on the conformation front. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I look at my horse and see some pretty big issues, but I still like the whole and just hope the sum of the parts adds up okay....

Anne

Aug. 8, 2003, 03:43 PM

I must confess that I see nothing wrong with Mickey's length of cannon, or his pasterns. His pastern angle matches that huge laid back shoulder of his, and with regard to length they look just fine to me - as I have commented before, in my personal experience horses with short pasterns tend to have navicular and/or ringbone issues.

To quote Sallie Sexton, over at the knee can perform, back at the knee can't.

Batgirl, you already know I love Mickey, especially this photograph. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif He is the perfect example of the point I believe DMK and Lord Helpus are trying to make on the other thread. Conformation is not the end-all and be-all. To my eye Mickey looks like an about perfect conformation hunter, but that was clearly not what HE wanted to do in life, and I hope he is happy doing dressage and popping over the occasional jump. You both deserve to be happy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cowgirl

Aug. 8, 2003, 04:14 PM

'kay, I'll play...

My three year old mare: http://community.webshots.com/photo/80696116/80759025fgMtPM

Same mare, at 2 years, 7 months: http://community.webshots.com/photo/80696116/80758914iizffW

Same mare, at 15 months: http://community.webshots.com/photo/80696116/80699181twEwwC

And at five months: http://community.webshots.com/photo/80696116/80699471BqRpeO

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (Of course, this might be more instructive on how much and how often they can change color as they grow!)

[This message was edited by Cowgirl on Aug. 12, 2003 at 02:50 PM.]

*SERAPH*

Aug. 8, 2003, 04:21 PM

"To quote Sallie Sexton, over at the knee can perform, back at the knee can't."

I agree with Anne on this! And too short and upright a pastern is a bad thing. I don't think he is extremely long in the pastern; but he is a tad long there as well as in the cannon. We want cannons to be pretty short as this is where the majority of the strength lies in the front leg. Shorter cannons equal stength.

I will note that NO horse is perfect and I don't care what level the equine is performing at. And many times, regardless of any conformational issues, the horse can be able to perform well and above what he may seem capable of or what his conformation may seem to limit him to do. After all, every horse is an individual, with his own heart and mind. Rather like us humans! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Anne

Aug. 8, 2003, 04:54 PM

Paging Reed Ayers, our resident orthopedic guru!!!

"We want cannons to be pretty short as this is where the majority of the strength lies in the front leg. Shorter cannons equal stength."

This is actually an old wives' tale, and I'm sure Reed could give us the scientific citations to prove it. The length of the bone has nothing to do with how strong it is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We might like short cannons aesthetically and because of how they relate to the rest of the horse's conformation, but length does not affect the strength of the bone. In veterinary medicine we rarely ever see complete fractures of the third metacarpus (excluding bucked shins which are actually a bone remodeling process) - generally the condyles and the joints are much more at risk. Reed, feel free to chime in here!!!

vineyridge

Aug. 9, 2003, 02:44 AM

I'm certainly learning a lot from this thread.

Because of this, I've been looking at D with a critical eye and am some what surprised at how weak his hind quarters are. He has no muscle, so you can really see the bone structure.

I'll try and get some photos of him for critique in the next week or so. Mostly or so.

Thread killer Extraordinaire

Hunter_Rider

Aug. 9, 2003, 06:03 AM

OK hopefully this works. 4 yr. old TB mare 15.2 hands-has been winning the in hand conformation classes. Very nice mover.Scooling 2'6 with lead changes!!

Evol_or_revert

Aug. 9, 2003, 03:47 PM

Everyone has such lovely horses!!!! All I can say is WOW!!!

If anyone is bored hehe check out a bad looking horse. Also sorry I got really confused with the order thing so I decided to post now (before i forgot to come back) and hope that I don't get yelled at for posting at the wrong time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

You all have an eye for a good horse, how about a bad one???

This is one of my horses Charlie - 9yr TB gelding, 16.2hh.

http://www.geocities.com/forever_diamond_42/Charlierightside.jpg

The only thing I like about him is his face:
http://www.geocities.com/forever_diamond_42/Charlieatshed2.jpg

See if you can guess Charlies personality, if anyone is intrested I will post his story later it is a very odd one.

mcmIV

Aug. 9, 2003, 07:19 PM

Alright - I'll move it along to RUGBUG...

http://community.webshots.com/photo/80297309/83271411nfwQBD

And Ill change the topic - but whats his name?!

I gotta sleep now - been uploading pictures all night! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

*SERAPH*

Aug. 10, 2003, 09:30 AM

RugBug--

Sorry for the delay! Here we go....

Rugbug quote:

"I look at my horse and see some pretty big issues, but I still like the whole and just hope the sum of the parts adds up okay...."

Ok, as you've already seen for yourself, your guy has some pretty big conformational issues that he has to work around. From first glance, he looks like a quality horse with a sweet, workmanlike expression. Nicely molded, somewhat on the plain side head that is neither too short, small, nor to long and large. His neck is a good length and quite arched, wider at its base and tapering elegantly to a good throatlatch. It ties in rather low to rather steep, but sloping withers and also ties in fairly well at the bottom. With a lot of muscle-adding exercises this horse's topline would improve drastically.

Now, the withers are steep and look as if they could cause some problems as far as saddle fit; also, he might have issues of back soreness as his back also dips rather low from the wither. The shoulder to humerus to point of elbow is on the steep side and is somewhat closed. There's a good length to the shoulder as well as the humerus; but the steep/ rather closed angle seems to suggest that this guy would possibly move in a stiff-legged way.
Another thing I see is that the peak of the withers do not lie behind the point of the elbow; generally speaking this would suggest a reduction in scope in the reach of the gaits as well as over fences. Does he move with more upward motion than forward motion?

The forearm is long, the knee large and tilted as it should be (minimally forward); the cannons are short and strong. The pasterns give me some concern as they are very short and I wonder if he has had lameness issues as well as possibly navicular? The front hooves are well-shaped, could have more heel, and could be larger. Not sure, but it looks as if he toes out on the right fore.

The chest is good and deep; there's nice depth through the girth. His ribs are well-sprung; however, the back is longer (withers to peak of croup) than the ribcage. This results in a weak tie-in to the hinquarters. The last rib should be no further than 6 inches from the point of the hip. A weak connection puts a strain on the L-S joint, which stretches the lumbo-dorsal fascia, creating an undulating, broken top line resulting in difficulty coiling the loins.

The loin is long and rather weak. He does have a nice, long croup, a large pelvis with good angles; the gaskin is shorter than the femur, and his hock nice and large. He seems a tad straight-legged and a tad long in the leg. It would seem, according to his hind conformation, that much power is produced in the hind-quarter--I would say, though, that because of the long, weak loin connection the power produced by the hind cannot be used as efficiently.

I will now quote Dr. Robert Baird:

"...with a long back, a relatively weak loin but with good training, some horses are capable of performing fairly well. They may be able to jump more than four feet, and in dressage may move well enough to perform Prix St. Georges movements. It is, however, unlikely that such movements will be carried out correctly, with efficiency, showing a good bascule."

Again, we are looking at conformation, not taking into account the individual heart, mind, and personality of a horse. As I have said before, they are not robots nor do they necessarily have problems from conformational faults. Each horse is an individual; and like people, each will have many factors going on that will determine performance ability.

All that really matters in the end is that both of you are happy and satisfied with one another. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[This message was edited by *SERAPH* on Aug. 10, 2003 at 01:55 PM.]

*SERAPH*

Aug. 10, 2003, 10:21 AM

Evol_or_revert and Cowgirl---

Can't see either of your horses!

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

DreamBigEq37

Aug. 10, 2003, 10:30 AM

I'd like to play...

This is "Snoopy". I put together a little album with different pictures for an overall idea.

A little info- Snoopy was bred as a dressage horse, he is a Dutch Warmblood with a TB motherSnoopy (http://community.webshots.com/album/56957079AKjweP). He was also a stallion until just before he turned 5, and you can see it in his neck and body.
He has a lot of suspension to his gaits, like bouncing you out of the saddle suspension, but he can jump a little flat, but usually is a pretty nice jumper, tucks his legs well.
He showed very succesfully in the green conformation classes for a while.

My favorite part of his conformation is probably his head and neck, although I think his neck is a little short. I also love his short back, it makes him very nice to ride. I also like his pasterns and feet (when he is shod properly, he is better in the second set of pictures which are after I bought him and moved him) in front.

I don't like his hind legs, he is toed out in back and I think they are a little bit straight, and I don't like his hind feet as much. Also, sometimes he appears over in front when I look at pictures, but I don't see it when I look at him, so it might just be the way he is stood up.

I know there's more, I'm learning, so please help me out!

Snoopy

*~*~Lauryn*~*~*~
<3 Justice Served (http://www31.brinkster.com/justiceserved/default.htm)<3
<3 Nip N Tuck <3
saddle*up (http://www.geocities.com/schmidtimus)

"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion. You must set yourself on fire." -Reggie Leach

DreamBigEq37

Aug. 10, 2003, 12:06 PM

Okay, HERE (http://community.webshots.com/album/56957079AKjweP) is the link, I left it out and couldn't edit it in for some reason.

*~*~Lauryn*~*~*~
<3 Justice Served (http://www31.brinkster.com/justiceserved/default.htm)<3
<3 Nip N Tuck <3
saddle*up (http://www.geocities.com/schmidtimus)

"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion. You must set yourself on fire." -Reggie Leach

just_me

Aug. 10, 2003, 03:33 PM

I'm not sure if we're supposed to wait for a go ahead to post a picture, but I'll post now. Please let me know if this is a no no.

Anyway, Harvey's an 8 yr. old TB, grandson of Alydar. He's a jumper. I know he has a hunter's bump and a slight roach. I really don't know much about confirmation, so I'd love to get some input.

Thanks.

just_me

Aug. 10, 2003, 03:35 PM

Here's the other side.

Pocket Pony

Aug. 11, 2003, 08:17 AM

SERAPH - thanks for your comments. I posted to you on Friday then left work for the day.

It is so interesting to post a picture to see what others say, because I don't think Mickey's conformation is that great (not bad, mind you, just not what you would use as an example of good)...but maybe that's just me being insecure since I've never felt like I had a horse that other people would admire or want...although I love him to death and think he's a superstar.

Well, Mickey was bred to race, but never made it past his training because he bowed a tendon. The person I bought him from retrained him as a hunter and I did that for a year with him. Then moved to jumpers, but my trainer scared him and taught him how to stop so last year we started dressage training. The dressage has done wonders to strengthen his topline. His neck looks much stronger now, and his back is muscling up nicely. I have taken it upon myself to re-introduce him to jumping and to make it a positive experience. He rarely stops now. If I had my druthers, I'd do a mixture of dressage and hunters...the dressage work is so beneficial to him - he actually moves more like a hunter now than he did in the past because he really stretches for the bit and over jumps uses himself much more.

Thanks for the comments and insight, SERAPH.

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

Emstah

Aug. 11, 2003, 09:25 AM

Here's (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/emstah22/lst?.dir=/Katahdin&.view=t) my baby. Whatcha think? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"One needs an end to journey toward, but it's the journey that matters in the end."

frugalannie

Aug. 11, 2003, 10:01 AM

I've been lurking on this since the beginning trying my best to absorb everything I can. Please don't stop now! I'm starting to get glimmers of it. But I'm getting confused as to which horse is "on first".

So far, I've wanted to replace my brumbies with all of the horses I've seen. What lovely animals!

Looking forward to more insightful comments! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cowgirl

Aug. 11, 2003, 10:04 AM

SERAPH! Any clues as to why you can't see my pix? I can, of course, see them fine... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Edited to say, I would really like to hear your comments if I can fix the pix. She's being graded on Saturday (I may not get the results right away since she is in Europe) and I am a little nervous. The trainer/breeder thinks enough of her to do a saddle grading, so we'll see....

[This message was edited by Cowgirl on Aug. 12, 2003 at 03:09 AM.]

Czar

Aug. 11, 2003, 11:00 AM

This has been extremely informative as well as very interesting. I do have a couple of questions for those of you who know. Most of these things have been referred to on this thread and I just wanted some clarification....

1. What does flat through the croup mean?

2. How much room should there be between the bottom of the chest where the forearm joins and the beginning of the neck to avoid "tying in low"? Does tying in low restrict movement even if the shoulder is well laid back?

3. Does it really matter if shoulder slope and pasturn slope do not match? I was always under the impression that you didn't want too much of a slope to the pasturns as that could cause a strain with work but you always want a nice, big, sloping shoulder.

4. Is there an ideal for the height of the shoulder, from wither to top of forearm? The larger the shoulder the better?

5. Seraph...you mentioned some time ago that a horse's stifle was "well let down". What does this mean?

6. And lastly, what exactly is a horse's elbow? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Ok, sorry for the long post...I apologize if these questions have been answered and I didn't catch them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hunter_Rider

Aug. 11, 2003, 05:13 PM

another pic of Mandy-better angle!

DreamBigEq37

Aug. 12, 2003, 06:56 AM

*bump* Any critiques on Snoopy? Seraph?

*~*~Lauryn*~*~*~
<3 Justice Served (http://www31.brinkster.com/justiceserved/default.htm)<3
<3 Nip N Tuck <3
saddle*up (http://www.geocities.com/schmidtimus)

"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion. You must set yourself on fire." -Reggie Leach

mcmIV

Aug. 12, 2003, 07:22 AM

OK! Moderating a bit here... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Moving on from Rugbug's horse.... to HARVEY (justme).

I picked Harvey because he is a little different from the rest. I've been looking for 1) links that work and 2) horses that aren't "the same old nice conformation horse".

I think Harvey looks interesting - not in a critical way! But he isn't the same old beefy confo WB type we've been seeing a lot of.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/,s,6656094911,a,ga,ul,51960266,ic,Y/conformB-7-19-03.jpg

Oh, and I really liked Czar's questions - PLEASE read them and respond if you have some solid answers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

rileyt

Aug. 12, 2003, 08:07 AM

I think this is a great thread... but may I make a suggestion?

I find this a little overwhelming... What if we started a new thread (or several of them) dealing with specific attributes... e.g., one thread could deal with toplines, another with necks, another with shoulders,..etc. etc.

We could try to get 4 or 5 horse pictures posted all at the beginning of the thread, then have a discussion comparing those pictures just as to the particular part we're discussing.

I think sometimes its more helpful to look at 4 necks, side by side by side by side... and compare them.

It's just a suggestion. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(I'd start one but I can't post pictures).

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Czar

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:05 AM

Ok, so I read up a bit and answered a couple of my own questions...

1. Flat through the croup, also called "table-top" refers to a horse being very flat from the peak of the croup, which I believe is the slight "bump" on a horse's rear end where it begins to angle off towards the tail, and the dock of the tail. From what I read, it sounded as though this was not necessarily a bad thing (although not aesthetically pleasing) but can be very serious if coupled with other conformational flaws.

4. From what I read, it seems that the longer the shoulder the better but only in reference to the arm. A longer arm (point of shoulder to point of elbow) is preferred as a shorter armed horse moves choppier than a long-armed horse. And, the arm is supposed to be at least half the length of the shoulder. So, the longer the shoulder, the longer the arm which indicates a longer, more expansive stride. But note that the shoulder length must tie in with the arm length - a huge shoulder is ineffective if coupled with short forearms.

6. And lastly, a horse's elbow is the point behind the top of the leg where the leg joins the body.

The other questions...still waiting for answers http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Czar on Aug. 12, 2003 at 01:18 PM.]

[This message was edited by Czar on Aug. 12, 2003 at 01:19 PM.]

EventGurlie

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:41 AM

Well i thought id just go ahead and post pics of my mare for you all to crique for one of the next horses to critique. Just use it when you can But i dont think it was gonna get critiqued if i wait. She is a TB mare with some flaws and in these pictures she IS underweight(she is quite plump now!) and her topline is 3x better now than in the pic (the pic is over a year old) but you can see her conformation in these.
Addie1 (http://community.webshots.com/photo/84540285/84540702FPRwwQ)
Addie2 (http://community.webshots.com/photo/84540285/84540876VKwruS)and another view

Thanks in advance She is my event prospect and her first event is actually this weekend http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Nicole~

*SERAPH*

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:54 AM

Okay, you guys...I think this will help us IMMENSELY in studying this together if everyone goes to this site:

http://www.americantrakehner.com/SportHorse%20Conformation/SHCpart2.htm

Scroll down a short ways to you see FIGURE2 and FIGURE1 underscored; print both of these out so that as we're discussing conformation you can continually look back to these for easy reference.

Cowgirl--the site your pics are on will not allow me access. I can no longer access some of the others' pics. Please check your links!

And now Czar---

1. What does flat through the croup mean?

Flat through the croup simply means exactly what it sounds like; the back seems to run right into the rump with little rise as opposed to having a rounded outline from the back to the tail bone.

2. How much room should there be between the bottom of the chest where the forearm joins and the beginning of the neck to avoid "tying in low"? Does tying in low restrict movement even if the shoulder is well laid back?

Different disciplines place different emphasis on neck placement. From what I see, the Hunters and Racing disciplines tend to desire a nicely muscled, straighter, more forward neck set that ties in (because of that desired conformation)lower into the body; lower being somewhat relative here only because this is not necessarily "low" set neck to the Hunter/Racing disciplines but would be considered so by the Dressage/Jumper disciplines. In the case of the latter, a higher neck set is desired especially in Dressage, because QUOTE (Dr.Robert Baird)... "the main leverage point in the forequarters is the withers; the main leverage point in the hindquarter is the L-S joint. A well-attached neck and tall withers give great leverage so that lowering the head and arching the neck elevates the back with great ease. With an ewe neck, it fails to rise." With a low set neck, the elevation of front end carriage and movement is harder to obtain.

QUOTE (Dr.Robert Baird)"It is important that the structure of the neck vertebrae form a shallow, "S" with the first two vertebrae joing the skull from "above"" (top of "S").

So, seen from the side, the neck (on the bottom side) should seem to tie in at a higher point on the shoulder and make a shallow "S" either forward or backward depending on which side you are viewing the horse at.

3. Does it really matter if shoulder slope and pasturn slope do not match? I was always under the impression that you didn't want too much of a slope to the pasturns as that could cause a strain with work but you always want a nice, big, sloping shoulder.

As far as shoulder is concerned, what you want is a laid-back shoulder; the peak of the withers should lie (ideally) behind the point of the elbow. (The elbow is the bony protrusion at the back of the forearm--this bony protrusion is actually part of the humerus, which is the upper arm, and goes from the elbow to the point of shoulder or visa versa.) The greater the withers are behind the elbow, the better, as this is indicative in how much scope a horse should have. If the shoulder (scapula) in relation (angle) to the (humerus) is correct, then it will naturally create a nicely sloping, laid-back shoulder. However, the shoulder (scapula) in itself will not necessarily be the only indicator of great reaching motion. One must look at the other factors (length of humerus, angle of humerus, angle of scapula and humerus combined, and length of forearm).

The pastern length and angle is very important. The pastern should be at least 1/2 but no more than 3/4 quarters the length of the cannon bone. The degree of angle can be argued but generally should be between 45 and 50 degrees to give enough flexion. The angle should match the shoulder because the front end works in conjunction with every other front end moving part. The pastern is a shock absorber and deviating from the angle of the shoulder could make it less able to provide its shock absorbing abilities for the structure of that particular horse. Pastern angles that are different from shoulder angles can also point to leg conformation failings as well as improper hoof angles/hoof failings.

4. Is there an ideal for the height of the shoulder, from wither to top of forearm? The larger the shoulder the better?

The shoulder (scapula) should be very long and deep (well-laid back). The point of shoulder to point of elbow (we know what an elbow is now, right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) called the humerus (also known as the upper arm) should ideally be at least as half as long as the shoulder (scapula). It should also be a good bit more vertical (steep)as opposed to horizontal. The angle from wither-to point of shoulder-to point of elbow should be 90 degrees or better.

5. Seraph...you mentioned some time ago that a horse's stifle was "well let down". What does this mean?

A stifle is well let down when (with the horse in normal stance) it falls directly beneath the hip and is lower than the elbow.

6. And lastly, what exactly is a horse's elbow?

Think you know by now, but the elbow is the bony protrusion on the back of the forearm. It actually is a bone called the humerus (also referred to as the upper arm) and runs from the point of the shoulder to the elbow.

Hope this helps! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And I believe the next critique is Hunter_Rider followed by Snoopy. Y'all bear with me now...will critique shortly!!!

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

RugBug

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:14 AM

Sorry, I disappeared for awhile there. That's what the weekend and vacation will do to ya! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'll intersperse my comments below in bold:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
RugBug--

Sorry for the delay! Here we go....

Rugbug quote:

"I look at my horse and see some pretty big issues, but I still like the whole and just hope the sum of the parts adds up okay...."

Ok, as you've already seen for yourself, your guy has some pretty big conformational issues that he has to work around. From first glance, he looks like a quality horse with a sweet, workmanlike expression. Nicely molded, somewhat on the plain side head that is neither too short, small, nor to long and large. His neck is a good length and quite arched, wider at its base and tapering elegantly to a good throatlatch. It ties in rather low to rather steep, but sloping withers and also ties in fairly well at the bottom. With a lot of muscle-adding exercises this horse's topline would improve drastically.

Show's neck is one of his most obvious flaws. At the moment it is really thin. We are hoping that that topline will develop more as he progresses in his training. He just turned 5 and we are unsure how much was done with him prior to my purchase. He's only been with me for 5 weeks, so we are at the beginning with him.

Now, the withers are steep and look as if they could cause some problems as far as saddle fit; also, he might have issues of back soreness as his back also dips rather low from the wither. The shoulder to humerus to point of elbow is on the steep side and is somewhat closed. There's a good length to the shoulder as well as the humerus; but the steep/ rather closed angle seems to suggest that this guy would possibly move in a stiff-legged way.
Another thing I see is that the peak of the withers do not lie behind the point of the elbow; generally speaking this would suggest a reduction in scope in the reach of the gaits as well as over fences. Does he move with more upward motion than forward motion?

He is actually quite a nice mover. He has a long stride, nice overstep and is flat knee-d. I won't say that he will ever win in top company, but he will probably do okay in nice company. The first comment I get from people is what a nice mover he is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We've had no back soreness as of yet. I check him before and after every ride. When we were doing the pre-purchase, the vet said at first that she thought he had a long back, but upon further examination said nope, that he is in porportion. I'm not sure if that means anything, other than it makes me feel better when I look at his back. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The forearm is long, the knee large and tilted as it should be (minimally forward); the cannons are short and strong. The pasterns give me some concern as they are very short and I wonder if he has had lameness issues as well as possibly navicular? The front hooves are well-shaped, could have more heel, and could be larger. Not sure, but it looks as if he toes out on the right fore.

Ah...the toeing-out. Yes, he does toe out significantly in the right fore and it's from the fetlock down. He lands very distanctly from lateral to medial. It may end up being his downfall, but his disposition was good enough to risk it. Good catch...those pictures don't really show it that much.

Again, we are looking at conformation, not taking into account the individual heart, mind, and personality of a horse. As I have said before, they are not robots nor do they necessarily have problems from conformational faults. Each horse is an individual; and like people, each will have many factors going on that will determine performance ability.

All that really matters in the end is that both of you are happy and satisfied with one another. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The plans for Show are to be an eq horse for me. I don't think he jumps well enough to be a hunter, and certainly not in tough competition. I currently show local stuff and he will do just fine there, even in the hunters. I hope to use him at 3' to 3'6" (if I ever get there http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif). We may try some A stuff every now and then, but it won't be our focus.

I do like him and he is turning out to have a wonderful disposition...he fell asleep the first time I pulled his mane, could care less when I clipped his ears...and learns quickly. His conformation does worry me a little, but no they are no more than the issues other horses face.

Thanks for taking the time to critique him. I'll keep everyone posted on his progess from green bean to seasoned veteran. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Czar

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:30 AM

Seraph...thanks a million!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've been reading the site you suggested and taking notes and your explanations really helped.

Thanks again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

just_me

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
OK! Moderating a bit here... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Moving on from Rugbug's horse.... to HARVEY (justme).

I picked Harvey because he is a little different from the rest. I've been looking for 1) links that work and 2) horses that aren't "the same old nice conformation horse".

I think Harvey looks interesting - not in a critical way! But he isn't the same old beefy confo WB type we've been seeing a lot of.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/,s,6656094911,a,ga,ul,51960266,ic,Y/conformB-7-19-03.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for picking him next. I really can't wait to read everyone's comments. This will be a great learning experience for me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here's a view from the other side of him.

*SERAPH*

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:45 AM

mcmIV--

I'm sorry, thought Hunter_Rider was next!

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Cowgirl

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:53 AM

Thanks! I fixed the links on page 10--I just had to make them public.

I realize these are not ideal conformation shots, but they are all I have. Can you tell anything by the proportions about how much more she will grow?

She is being graded, in hand and under saddle, on Saturday, in Denmark. If this thread is still going when I get the results of the grading, I'll post them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*SERAPH*

Aug. 12, 2003, 07:35 PM

Cowgirl--

I will go ahead and comment on your mare because I believe you were trying to post her before some of the others.

The conformation shots that I have seen were not taken in such a way that makes it easy to judge conformation in all areas.

However, I will say from what I have seen is this is a rawboned, somewhat coarse, balanced powerfully built mare. She looks jumper all the way to me and there's not much I can find about her conformation that I don't like. Her neck may be a bit short but hard to tell.

Love her shoulder to upper arm angle , nice long forearm, good short thick cannon. Her pasterns give me a little pause as they look a little short. All joints huge and hooves a good size to support this mama! (I will say that she looks like she needs more heel all the way around.)

Nice short/med back--maybe will lengthen out to medium, wonderful loin as well as rib connection, very powerful pelvis and hind end, nicely sloping deep croup; she looks as if she may be slightly cowhocked but not in any significant way.

She's not very feminine and she looks a bit spooky/goofy. But this probably has more to do with her age than anything else.

From the look of her, this mare, if she's willing, looks capable of doing both dressage and jumpers; however, I'd think she'd be far more suitable in the jumpers if she has the desire to do it! She appears as if she would have quite a ground covering stride and much scope over fences(I would like to see her movement, because of the pasterns, and see how much flexion she had before going over jumps.)

As far as height, can't say much on that. If she is a warmblood and these pics are of her at 3 and younger, I would think she'd grow more. But quite frankly, I like her the way she is.

So, please let us all know who she is and what you would like to do with her discipline wise! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

*SERAPH*

Aug. 12, 2003, 07:50 PM

RugBug--

I see why your guy's movement may be impressive now when I went back and looked at him; I'd say he's limited in scope (reach) because his shoulder is not well-laid back. However, he has a very long shoulder and a very long humerus, which, in essence, would give him a long, lovely, expressive stride.

Thank you for posting your sweet guy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Cowgirl

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:10 PM

Thanks! Yes, a breeder in Denmark I know who saw this picture and a trot clip agreed that she's very powerful and not very feminine. That's ok. She's going to be an upper level dressage horse--that's what she was bred for, but she will free jump at the grading, so we will see. Her sire is Bernstein, a hannoverian who was 7th in the World Young Horse championship last year and is now going PSG at age 7 (and is half owned by the breeder I bought her from). He scored the highest of all the horses for the flying change and the trot. He is by the Trakehener Banditentraum (Ibikus/Mozart)and out of a mare from the W and A lines (hannoverian--Wittlesbach/Aristokrat). He is the highest scoring stallion in the Danish WB society of all time, and has sired three top selling auction foals. Her dam is by May Sherif, one of the top ten dressage sires of all time(although he sired an international jumper owned by Helena Weinburg) and out of the Oldenburg/TB mare who was the mother of my grand prix dressage schoolmaster. She was a national level jumper (the grand mare of the filly) in Denmark. The TB was Go On Thenxx an english thorobred that is found in a lot of Danish WB pedigrees.

She has an extremely powerful uphill canter, and a lovely trot and already strides under her body well. She really coils her joints when she moves. I bought her partly because she was from my horse's sister (and he is fabulous and I am lucky to have him) and partly because she had natural balance, tempo and cadence from birth. If I could figure out some way to post the trot clip after going one month under saddle, you could see. She has the gaits for dressage, but the power for both. She is very supple and loose, really bends her hock joints, but has a huge engine behind.

When I bought her, she was five months old, and I was boarding at High Prairie Farms at the time and showed her video to a well known jumper trainer...and he was drooling! HAHA.

I think fitting her with a saddle will be a challenge.

The reason I asked about height is that she is only about 15.2 right now. I would like her to get to about 16 hands. She looks much bigger, but she's not. The breeder says she makes herself really big when ridden and she has plenty of barrel to take up the leg. Her sire is 17.3, but her dam is only 15.3.

Anyway, when I get the results of the grading, I will post it. It will be interesting to see if her lack of femininity will count against her. She is a very powerful mover.

I think that if I ever breed her, I will choose a very athletic TB...

The breeder said she has a fantastic work ethic and is very easy to train and is very charismatic.

[This message was edited by Cowgirl on Aug. 13, 2003 at 01:32 AM.]

egontoast

Aug. 13, 2003, 03:26 AM

"She's not very feminine and she looks a bit spooky/goofy. But this probably has more to do with her age than anything else."

Weel, thankee, blushing here ,but it's the horse you are supposed to critique.

ps, I LOVE cowgirl's horse.

I wish someone would explain the angles a bit more. Side by side graphics maybe showing ideal and not so ideal angles.

Czar

Aug. 13, 2003, 04:51 AM

I second egontoast...even with reading through a bunch of conformation sites, it's really hard to visualize the ideal angles. Anyone up for the challenge?

BTW..thanks to all who have posted on this thread - this is probably the most informative thread I've ever read on COTH...bravo! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also...on this site http://www.americantrakehner.com/SportHorse%20Conformation/SHCpart2.htm#3 in PART II (which I believe is the page I linked to) in the 5th paragraph of the shoulders and front leg section...it states "The steeper "the arm" is, the greater it's range in motion".

First of all, the arm is NOT the leg above the knee, which I originally thought and was very confused as it could not be anything but steep considering it is pointing straight down http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But my question now is...if you want a steep arm..does that mean that you basically want the leg to come straight out of the shoulder at the front and not a little farther back, more underneath the shoulder?

Thanks...and sorry for all of the questions http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

mcmIV

Aug. 13, 2003, 05:50 AM

questions are good! You only ask what most of the rest are thinking! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I don't really care who's next - I only wanted to pick particular horses so I could update the title. My method is to go through the most recent page, start clicking links and the first one that works, WINS! Oh, and I was sort of looking for horses with a little interest - as opposed to all these gorgeous round conformation types that people keep posting. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

just_me

Aug. 13, 2003, 06:12 AM

Cowgirl did post her pics before I did, but I hope we get to critique Harvey's conformation eventually. I'm so interested in reading what those who know about conformation have to say. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks again. j.

*SERAPH*

Aug. 13, 2003, 06:57 AM

Cowgirl--Yes, I can see why a hunter/jumper trainer would be drooling! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifI am into jumpers myself and I love large, rawboned mares. I agree that a Thoroughbred or 'refinement" sire would be the type stallion to breed to. Please do post about how she does in her upcoming grading; and any pics of her movement would be fabulous. I wouldn't worry overmuch about her size. She doesn't look like she will have any problem taking up ANYONE'S leg. She's built like a "brickhouse" as the song goes, and I really believe smaller height will have no affect at all on her "bigness" of strides and impression, nor over fences of any height. Besides, smaller horses tend to be sounder horses! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

*SERAPH*

Aug. 13, 2003, 07:22 AM

Czar Quote:

"But my question now is...if you want a steep arm..does that mean that you basically want the leg to come straight out of the shoulder at the front and not a little farther back, more underneath the shoulder?"

Don't worry Czar! I had a bit of a problem understanding this one myself as I thought "arm' was to be found in only one place as well. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Actually, the arm is actually the Point-of-Shoulder to Point-of-Elbow (remember that "elbow" thing Czar?!LOL). This arm bone is called the humerus. When they are saying this bone should be steep, they are saying that the bone should rise vertically from the elbow to the point of shoulder, where it attaches itself to the shoulder bone (scapula). That bone goes up and back towards the withers.

Here's yet another insightful bit of info from Dr.Robert Baird (Quote):

"The ARM should be long, at least half the length of the shoulder. Its length determines the horse's ability to move the elbows away from the ribcage towards the front or the side. The STEEPER it is, the greater its range of motion. This quality is especially important for jumpers and event horses when faced with big spreads and water jumps and the need to raise the elbows and knees up towards the ears over the large verticals. It is also essential for lateral work for dressage.The ARM is connected to the shoulder-blade with a ball and socket join. It controls the way the horse folds and unfolds the knee and fetlock joints. The longer the bone, the more expansive tha gait; the shorter, the more choppy."

The ARM is attached to the FOREARM (what you were thinking the ARM was) which should ideally be long, strong, and vertical. The forearm, which is made up of two bones, the radius and the ulna, is attached to the humerus and runs down to the knee. Does this make it easier to understand?

As far as the lines and comparisons, I do not have the program to draw the lines nor do I have the ability to post pics. But I do feel if you guys go to the site I suggested and print out the conformation figures of the points of the horse and then the skeletal horse figure you will begin to understand immensely. Conformation is 90% skeletal structure; rather than draw lines on the outside of the horse, it would be far more enlightening for you to understand what bones actually make up those "lines". I do believe, as we critique horse conformation, you could use these as a reference for each horse being critiqued. I personally have learned much more this way.

However, if someone has the ability to do it, it doesn't bother me! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Czar

Aug. 13, 2003, 07:39 AM

Seraph...thanks...again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That makes a little more sense...I was rather puzzled trying to visualize what a horizontal "arm" would look like http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

So, I'm still a little confused about the movement issues and the shoulder/arm angle.

To get nice hunter movement...what angle do you want the shoulder/arm to be at?

I'm trying to be as clear as possible with my questions...the angles are so darned confusing!!

Basically, I'm asking if you want a upright shoulder with the leg coming out close to the front or do you want the leg to be coming out farther back so there is that little protrusion of "chest" before the leg joins with the body?

[This message was edited by Czar on Aug. 13, 2003 at 12:18 PM.]

*SERAPH*

Aug. 13, 2003, 08:16 AM

Czar--

Been there!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

*SERAPH*

Aug. 13, 2003, 08:54 AM

Hunter_Rider--

See, I told you I'd get around to you!

First impressions: Mandy, 15.2 hand, 4 year old mare is a nicely put together, refined Thoroughbred mare who appears as if she still has a few more inches to grow. Not sure how much more she will grow but she is obviously a tad croup high and built downhill at this point. (The pic was also taken with the mare standing downhill.) Though these pics are quite hard to see being so dark, her basic outline makes it obvious why she has been winning hunter conformation classes.

Her personality, straight off the bat, seems quite impressive for one so young. She appears calm, relaxed, but with a rather quietly alert, intelligent curiosity. This mare seems very mild-mannered.

She has a lovely, very feminine sculpted head, which is well-attached to a straight, forward neck-set (Hunter). It has good length, good width at the base; and it tapers elegantly into a well-spaced throatlatch. I am assuming that physical training hasn't begun to take place yet as her topline is not developed.

Her chest is deep, her shoulder is long but a little steep so that her withers are not put as far behind her elbow as they ideally could be. In other words, she could be a little more laid-back in the withers.

The humerus,arm, is long and fairly vertical so she should have good forward, downward movement. The angle between the scapula and the humerus is a little tight. I would guess that her movement will be fairly flowing and straight, with downward-reaching movement but not with tremendous extension. I believe this is exactly the movement that may be desired in a hunter equitation horse???

Nice length in forearm, the knee tilting minimally forward as it should, the cannons fairly short--they do appear a little tied-in below the knee. But I cannot be sure because of the quality of these pics. Pasterns are correct length and appear to have good flexion; they also appear to match the shoulder angle. Seems to have nice sized hooves with enough heel but she's sinking in muck so hard to tell. Sufficient bone and joints for her size.

She's nice and deep at the girth, well-sprung through the ribcage, has a good connection at the thoraco-lumbar joint (connection of last rib). She has a short back (she should have a very nice bascule), a very good loin connection; she could be a tad deeper in the groin. There is a good length and slope to the croup. Her pelvis is quite large and has a good angle.

Her femur (point of buttock to point of stifle) is nice and long and appropriately longer than the gaskin. Her gaskins are somewhat lengthy, as well as her cannons; definitely a leggy girl behind. As mentioned before, she looks as if she's got some growing to do. She is built quite powerfully behind, however.

She has a decent angle from hock to hoof but think she is still a little straight-legged or post-legged. Very common for Racehorses and Steeplechase horses. (Thoroughbred). Hocks are large and well-let down. Hocks are quite a bit higher than knees which will give good thrusting power over fences.

The stifle should be lower than the elbow; but again this mare (although) she's four really looks like she's not done growing.

All around elegant mare who appears to have a very athletic build and will more than likely rack-up in the ribbons for hunter equitation under saddle and over fences. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

easyjumper1

Aug. 13, 2003, 09:37 AM

Could someone please critique my mare? She's a 9 yr. old 15.3 h Dutch warmblood and she's a jumper, granddaughter of Jasper. Thanks!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Photo 1 (http://www.members.lycos.nl/ezjumpr/moneypenny11.jpg)

walking (http://www.members.lycos.nl/ezjumpr/moneypennystap.jpg)

*SERAPH*

Aug. 13, 2003, 10:15 AM

Ok, since it seems that I am the only one really critiqueing (anyone else is more than welcome to come in too!), this is the order I'm going to go in just to avoid forgetting someone that might have posted a few pages back.

Next, for me, is EventGurlie
Evol_or_revert (if she posts)
a pic now.
DreamBigEq37
just_me
Emstah
easyjumper1

I'll try and critique at least two a day. I will do EventGurlie and Evol_or_revert. If the latter hasn't posted a pic by the time I'm ready to critique hers, I'll move on to DreamBigEq37.

I hope it's okay with everyone as it's the only way I can be fair and do a thorough critique for everyone. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

By the way, I am thoroughly enjoying this and I hope everyone else is learning as much as I am continue to learn! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

CuriousGeorge

Aug. 13, 2003, 06:28 PM

Seraph, what are your qualifications to offer these "critiques"? So far it seems like you are great at quoting one article/reference, but how else have you educated yourself about conformation and its performance effects?

Emstah

Aug. 14, 2003, 06:43 AM

Who cares what her qualifications are- we are here to listen to her (and everyone else's) opinions. No is is being forced to post their horse's pictures for critique. It is for fun, and to hear insight from a fellow equestrian. No one on here is necessarily qualified at all. We all post our thoughts and opinions and people can take them or leave them.

"One needs an end to journey toward, but it's the journey that matters in the end."

*SERAPH*

Aug. 14, 2003, 07:39 AM

CuriousGeorge--

We are critiquing horses here; we are not critiquing my qualifications. Feel free to give your own critiques as we are moving through the horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Emstah--

Thank you! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

CuriousGeorge

Aug. 14, 2003, 09:02 AM

Seraph, I am only curious because you seem to ignore anyone that offers an opinion or information that differs from yours.

That tends to make people feel like you are just attempting to spew your own knowledge, limited though it might be, without really engaging in a sharing educational dialogue.

[This message was edited by CuriousGeorge on Aug. 14, 2003 at 01:23 PM.]

milk warts

Aug. 14, 2003, 09:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
Ok, since it seems that I am the only one really critiqueing <snip>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm... that might be because the rest of us are busy at work every day so that we can afford to work with a trainer.

*SERAPH*

Aug. 14, 2003, 09:27 AM

EventGurlie--

Sorry its taken me so long to get to you.

Here we go:

First impressions is that this is a solidly built competitive mare. She appears as if she can get a little strong at times! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif.She stands over a good bit of ground, is rectangular in build, and is fairly well-balanced; she appears as if she may be a tad bit heavy on the forehand.

She is not overtly feminine with a fairly large , though refined, head, and thick neck. What a bold personality in that eye, though! Her neck is quite thick and she could use a little more space for her throatlatch. But it is sufficient. She is very forward-headed as her neck is quite straight (somewhat ewe-necked in these pics) and ties in rather low.

Her scapula (shoulder) angle is quite steep and this puts her withers above the point of her elbow as opposed to behind the elbow. This will result in her having less than maximum scope. The angle between her scapula and her humerus is less than 90 degrees which may make her somewhat more short-strided than she would be. However, her humerus (arm--point of shoulder to point of elbow) is very long; and though it could be a little more vertical, it is quite adequate and could possibly offset the aforementioned limiting angles to some degree. Remember, the longer the arm (humerus) the more the horse has the ability to move the elbows away from the ribcage toward the front or off to the side. The steeper/vertical the arm is, the greater its range of motion. She may not have the hugest reach in the world but she should be very quick and agile at being able to pick up her front legs well.

The shoulder is very muscled, the chest is deep. This mare has very good bone and substance. Her forearm is long and well-muscled; her knee joint a very good size and tilted minimally forward. Her cannons are short and thick.Pasterns are a good length though her pastern angle does not match her shoulder angle. With more heel this would be corrected.

Very nice depth through the girth and groin. Back strong and medium in length. Loin connection very strong. The lumbar span connection, where the last ribs are connected to the lumbo-sacral joint at the forward end of the croup is excellent. Very strong back on this mare!

Her loin is wonderfully broad, excellent sloping depth from point of croup to root
of tail. Pelvis is tipped very forward (which has a lot to do with why her loin is so excellent), and the pelvis is large. Very good suspension and engine system in the back end! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifFemur is nice and long and the stifles are well-let down below the point of the elbow;this mare shopuld be able to get "under herself" well. Her hind leg appears a tad overly long with both her gaskins and cannons a little lengthy. Hocks are well-let down, higher than the knees, and large. Angle of pastern is too sloping because legs are long; looks to me to be slightly cowhocked and a tad coonfooted. Hindlegs are straight from point of hock down so much thrusting power. Over all, hindquarter is quite powerful.

This is a nicely built, substantial, forward-moving mare who is built very athletically. I've ridden a mare like this before and she was incredible--scary at times--but incredible! I believe she will give you years of bold, gutsy rides! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Please post and tell us how you guys do at your event. Good luck!

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Emstah

Aug. 14, 2003, 09:54 AM

"There are currently 215 members and 147 guests on the boards." Milk Warts- Looks like not everyone is "busy at work." I think we should be grateful for the time and effort *SERAPH* is putting in and for her opinions. I don't see why she is getting bashed here when there are 215 other COTH people on here right now stating their opinions as well- why not go harass them for not being hard at work?!

"One needs an end to journey toward, but it's the journey that matters in the end."

EventGurlie

Aug. 14, 2003, 10:04 AM

Seraph Thanks!! Your post was very informative! And the long humerus must make up for the upright shoulder b/c she tends to jump with some 'snappy' knees! Im glad to know that she does havea powerful hind end http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And yes she does come 'under herself" VERY well..In fact when i first bought her and she wasnt as balanced i had lot of problems with her ripping her front shoes off b/c she came under herself so well! and Yes she is a tad coonfooted and has the sloping hind pasterns It really does run in the family as I saw her Sire and his are much more sloping than hers and the same is with all her siblings. She can be bold but does on occasion get on the chicken side but usuall when shes scared to do something she just stops and zones out http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I will let you know how the event goes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif She can be on the strong side especially jumping as well http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i would say your predictions are accurate! THanks again!!!

~Nicole~

just_me

Aug. 14, 2003, 10:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
Feel free to give your own critiques as we are moving through the horses. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wish I could, but I just don't know enough about conformation to give an informed opinion. This whole thing is a great learning experience for me, and I find it really interesting to compare the critiques to the picture.

Please keep it up all of you who are taking the time to critique. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*SERAPH*

Aug. 14, 2003, 11:27 AM

Emstah--

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

EventGurlie-QUOTE:

"i would say your predictions are accurate! THanks again!!!"

DADGUM! You guys don't even know how much I'm learning having the opportunity to do this! I've studied conformation intensely for the last 3 years but have only really applied it for myself...never for such a diverse group of horses. The more accurate I get, the better I understand the way the equine musculature and skeletal systems work in conjunction with one another. Just so you guys know, I want to give a thorough and well-thought out critique as possible so it actually takes me approximately 30-45 minutes to do the analysis for each horse; then I have to type it up! Sometimes I realize something is simply "off" in a certain part of a horse's conformation and I have to go do some research on the web to really validate what I'm thinking the fault is. I'm not super fast at this but I'm getting better. How encouraging!!!

DreamBigEq37...you're next! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
--QUOTE:

"

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

DreamBigEq37

Aug. 14, 2003, 02:20 PM

I can't wait http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Thank you Seraph, for sharing your information with everyone, obviously you are doing a pretty good job, as everyone seems to agree with how their critique affects their horse and I can't believe you are willing to share so much with everyone!
I know I, for one, am learning a TON from this thread and am glad you are here to help out!
Any recomendations on books, etc. that you read to help you learn so much? I really am interested.
Thanks!

*~*~Lauryn*~*~*~
<3 Justice Served (http://www31.brinkster.com/justiceserved/default.htm)<3
<3 Nip N Tuck <3
saddle*up (http://www.geocities.com/schmidtimus)

"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion. You must set yourself on fire." -Reggie Leach

Little Indian

Aug. 14, 2003, 03:31 PM

here is mine up for critique....tell me if we're still on Harvey and if we are I will post them later.
stats- 8 year old imported Wesfalen. around 16.3 hands.
here is a better picture of him all braided up so you can get an idea of his neck and butt
http://pic8.picturetrail.com:80/VOL256/1325227/2519538/31727757.jpg
http://pic8.picturetrail.com:80/VOL256/1325227/2519538/31727054.jpg
http://pic8.picturetrail.com:80/VOL256/1325227/2519538/31727002.jpg
http://pic8.picturetrail.com:80/VOL256/1325227/2519538/31726998.jpg
http://pic8.picturetrail.com:80/VOL256/1325227/2519538/31726985.jpg
http://pic8.picturetrail.com:80/VOL256/1325227/2519538/31726974.jpg

just_me

Aug. 15, 2003, 04:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Little Indian:
here is mine up for critique....tell me if we're still on Harvey and if we are I will post them later.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, we haven't started on Harvey. There's one more before him. SERAPH posted a list of the order she's using.

EventGurlie

Aug. 15, 2003, 05:52 AM

Seraph...yes i can see how this helps you! its a very good learning experience for me...I know what I like and what I dont about horses but i cant really pin point it at all times..There was something I liked about my mare when i went to look at her..Its hard to imagine how she looked when i brought her home until now..and even the difference from the pics i posted unil now! when i went to look at her she was shaggy and had no sheen to her coat and outta shape and had little training. Her feet were god awful, extremely short and all different angles and lenghts her shoes were 2 sizes to small as well(they were using an amish farrier)!! Now 1 1/2 yrs later they look like normal horse feet and are substantial enough to hold her big bodied self! but i saw through all the scruff! and her i have myself a gorgeous (well at least imo!!) mare who jumps well! I do have some pics of her in motion if anyone cares to see the conformation pic to how she is under saddle!
jumping 3'3 (http://community.webshots.com/photo/55900997/55901768qhEdaK)
dressage (http://community.webshots.com/photo/55900997/72067041TaWpjd)

~Nicole~