Is this one reason why buyers import? [Archive]

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 23, 2003, 04:28 AM

It's called choice.

On the thread titled "When do you decide to keep a colt as a stallion" started by equinemidwife, Sporthorse South brought up some statistics about Oldenburg numbers that I was completely unaware of ... here's her quote:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>My colt is staying in Germany, where colts have to be invited to the stallion approvals in November because of the large number of colts who are still intact and who still look like stallion prospects at 2 - 2-1/2 years of age. Some numbers - there are roughly 2500 Oldenburg colts born in Germany every year. Two years later, about 300 - 400 of these colts (along with some colts from other registries) will be presented to the Oldenburg stallion licensing commission during the pre-selection in October. Maybe 60 of these colts will be invited by the commission to attend the November approvals, and between 20 - 40 of those will be approved. As you can see, it is a highly selective process, with less than 2% of any particular year's colt crop actually making it to approved status.

By contrast, GOV might inspect 20 - 30 stallions from age 2-1/2 and up at North American inspections each year, so they don't have to be as restrictive here (i.e., stallions don't have to be "pre-selected" and "invited" to an official stallion inspection). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was in response to a question about being invited to a 3-yr old inspection, but it piqued my curiosity.

There has been a LOT of conversation regarding US breeders competing with what is being produced abroad. But heavens, with these kinds of numbers being produced over there, within a much smaller geographic area, is it surprising that buyers head over the pond?

This is NOT intended to be a provocative, argument-starting thread. But heck, folks. I'm starting to look for a new guy for next spring. And honestly, the idea of going somewhere with such a high concentration is appealing. That doesn't mean I'm going to do it ... I'm just posing the question.

What's your view?

The adventure has begun...
KT

[This message was edited by Oldenburg Mom on Jul. 30, 2003 at 02:36 PM.]

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 23, 2003, 04:28 AM

Rainbow Farm Unltd.

Jul. 23, 2003, 04:56 AM

You're right! It's easier to go and see a big selection of whatever kind of wb you want - young or broke or highly trained and winning, stallion or mare, dressage or jumper - in a small area, such as Germany. I believe we are producing horses every bit as good or even sometimes better than in Europe, but we are very geographically and organizationally challenged here in North America. Face it - it's a huge place.

However, I send young horses and ponies all over the country from thorough videos, and haven't had an unhappy customer yet. In the interest of promoting North American horses, perhaps you could do some research here first. You can do an awful lot of looking via the internet, in the comfort of your home or office... It does reintroduce the subject of the need for some central listing services, but in the meantime the big internet sales sites seem to work very well. Personally I am thrilled with my particular breeding program, which is doing very well, and I haven't looked at a purchase in person in years! I buy from video (to my specs), prepurchase exams, and careful reference checking, and it's worked very well for me.

That said, if I were buying a big ticket horse, I would definitely go and see him in person for a few days!!

Barb Young
http://www.RainbowFarm.com
Premium Oldenburg sport horses and
First Premium American Sportponies

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 23, 2003, 05:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I believe we are producing horses every bit as good or even sometimes better than in Europe, but we are very geographically and organizationally challenged here in North America. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, not to start an argument, but with these kinds of numbers I think it is going to be extraordinarily difficult for the US to compete. And these numbers are from only ONE registry. Goodness this is BIG business, undoubtedly with a good deal of government support/sanction (don't know for sure, just guessing.) I mean if these numbers are accurate (and I have no reason to doubt they are) that means 2,500 colts p/a PLUS probably at least 2,000 fillies (?) we're talking 5,000 p/a ... over a 5 year period that's 25,000 kids. That's a LOT of horses that are just getting going... assuming, of course, that they are being brought along slowly.

Remember supply and demand from school? No wonder many are such "bargains" (a relative term, of course) from our point of view, even including importation costs.

Unless I am waaaay off base here, this is a huge obstacle, especially for any smaller breeder, to overcome.

That said, now more than ever, I don't want to go abroad, I want to find something domestically! Support the US breeder!

The adventure has begun...
KT

*SERAPH*

Jul. 23, 2003, 05:56 AM

I think it's been said before, but the different registeries over here need to develop co-ops, regionally speaking, so that buyers will not have to roam far and wide to find what they are looking for. In other words, breeders will need to work together. That will be the most difficult thing to overcome here in this country, as we are very independent-minded as well as competitive; but this would, in theory, bring the level of excellence up. For the time being, we are producing wonderful horses over here and just from a patriotic bent we should strive to buy American. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 23, 2003, 06:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>... buyers will not have to roam far and wide to find what they are looking for.... For the time being, we are producing wonderful horses over here and just from a patriotic bent we should strive to buy American. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your two points are VERY well taken, Seraph. The internet has helped tremendously ... you can find breeders, both large and small, and for the most part at least see snaps of what they've got to sell. But the next step is usally a PITA, for both the breeder AND the buyer. A co-op is a brilliant idea.

I am allowing 3-4 months looking time for a baby I will be purchasing in 6-7 months. This is a considerable amount of time ... especially when you weave into the equation that I could accomplish the same thing probably with a week-long trip to Germany.

As a friend once said, "In Europe you have the time but never the space. In the US you have the space but never the time."

This may indeed be one of the reasons why the US is not competing successfully with Europe.

The adventure has begun...
KT

Rocky XVI

Jul. 23, 2003, 07:07 AM

OldenburgMom:

I have purchased purebred dutch warmbloods, both at home (in Canada) and from Holland. You are correct that there is much greater selection in Europe. On the plus side, you can go to one breeding farm and see 300 horses aged 3 and under, or go to a training facility and choose from 20 horses all going under saddle. If you are looking for a particular bloodline and type, the chances are very good that you will find a selection of horses that fits your criterion, whereas in North America you might have to search extensively to find one individual.

On the minus side, you only have a short time to inspect your prospective purchases. You will have to trust and interpret the vet reports of the foreign country. There is also a waiting period between the time of purchase and delivery (for vetting, quarantine and shipping), in which time injuries can occur. You don't have the option, as you do at home, of having your trusted vet make the assessment, and of putting the horse on the trailer as soon as you hand over the cheque.

Whether you buy at home or abroad, I suggest that you choose a reputable breeder/trainer to deal with, as opposed to searching for the bargain in an individual's back field. You may pay more, but the larger operations have their reputation to uphold, and the north american market is important to them.

~on a mission to get rid myself of my training level designation~

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 23, 2003, 07:14 AM

Hey elsa.

I like dealing with the smaller breeder. They can afford to make NO mistakes ... and, in typical American fashion, I'm always rooting for the underdog.

Plus, I want to pay for a horse. Not some large breeding operation's advertising budget.

Please, again, don't get me wrong. The large facilities have the big bucks to spend on the astonishing fabulous breeding stock as well as the research and ability to hire the best. I just can't afford it.

But my personal views on what/where/who I am going to buy isn't what prompted this thread. What prompted this thread was--as usual--the huge difference between here and there.

I guess what I'm saying is we're playing against a stacked deck. And I didn't know it ... or at least how substantial the difference is.

The adventure has begun...
KT

*SERAPH*

Jul. 23, 2003, 07:15 AM

Oldenburg Mom--Are you looking for another Oldenburg colt/filly?

The U.S. is not competing successfully with Europe because just as we have not had the breeding/marketing system in place, we do not have the training of and development of riders specifically for the highest levels of competition in place. Where as the state (Germany)absorbs the cost and provides the facilities/horses to train the riders on (and many to do this at/with) as well as the competition experience without the rider having to pay the out-of-pocket, we have no such cohesive system set up here.

Which leads us back to the co-op deal and breeders...what if the NA breeders, along with backing from the USA Equestrian Federation, got together regionally and created just such facilities. One could hire in top notch dressage, jumper, even eventing instructors, pay them a salary, provide living quarters, the riders that came to be schooled and instructed here would start off beginners-advanced on appropriate horses (great retirement home for schoolmasters!) then as they were advanced the breeders would be sending in their young horses that would be trained by the students at the appropriate levels. The horses go back to breeders trained to sell; the outstanding individuals have the chance to compete at more advanced competitions. Are you following my train of thought???

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 23, 2003, 07:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Oldenburg Mom--Are you looking for another Oldenburg colt/filly? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, for next spring. Either a yearling or a weanling.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The U.S. is not competing successfully with Europe because just as we have not had the breeding/marketing system in place, we do not have the training of and development of riders specifically for the highest levels of competition in place. Where as the state (Germany)absorbs the cost and provides the facilities/horses to train the riders on ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup again, just like I thought. It's called a stacked deck. The cost of breeding/training is borne solely by private individuals here. That means it's more difficult.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Which leads us back to the co-op deal and breeders...what if the NA breeders, along with backing from the USA Equestrian Federation, got together regionally and created just such facilities. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do not need to create the facilities, IMHO. They need to create the infrastructure. BIG difference. Facilities = Big Bucks. Infrastructure = little bucks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Are you following my train of thought???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah. Big time. What I'm following MORE, however, is your tagline ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The adventure has begun...
KT

*SERAPH*

Jul. 23, 2003, 07:48 AM

Great minds think alike! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Yes, we can talk all day; we have to get pro-active. It's shameful that a country as great as ours is not producing (with all our vast resources) horses and more especially riders that are trained and fine tuned to such an extent that we can go out and kick butt all over the world!!!

Screw their markets over there; we know the primary market in this world that anyone wants to hold captive is the American one. We need to take our market back for our breeders sakes, for our riders sakes, and for the pride of this country's sake. Not to mention that this would be a billions of dollars a year industry regained that would help our economy considerably!

Now, back to the pow-wow...

Oldenburg Mom--Okay, you say not have the facilities but have the infrastructure? But how can the infrastructure exist without the facilities? We all know it costs something to gain something....

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

ise@ssl

Jul. 23, 2003, 07:50 AM

Well if you are looking for a yearling or weanling regardless of gender. The ISR/OLDNA publishes all the scores for the foals yearly in the breeders guide. The name of the breeder is listed as well. The cost of purchasing a breeders guide is $15.00.

The name of the stallion and dame are also listed. You can certainly start there. Look at the stallion lines you prefer and then see the top scoring foals by that stallion. The guide also publishes photos from some of the inspections as well.

If the owner isn't someone you recognize - just email the the registry and tell them you are interested in contact the person about a foal they had presented - and I'm sure they will provide contact information. Some of us have our farms listed on the websites.

This list of foals also allows you to see how well the foal scored compared to ALL the foals presented and also if the breeder presented other foals and how they scored. It's a good place to start.

Other people can explain the availability of information on the foals from other registries as I'm not sure what those are.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 23, 2003, 09:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Okay, you say not have the facilities but have the infrastructure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
By infrastructure I mean a 'system' of development. That means breeders to trainers to sellers ... which also can work directly from breeders to sellers. Almost like a "clearing house" of, I don't know, "approved" trainers... again, I don't know. I'm just throwing out ideas here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>But how can the infrastructure exist without the facilities?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess what I mean, again, is a codified system. A way to work. We don't necessarily need a PLACE, we need ... a WAY to work: you start at A and finish at Z.

This must be about as clear as mud. *sigh* Do you GET what I mean?

Hold on,... you must get it. This is from your post on the other thread:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If we want to change things, take a look at their SYSTEM of doing things; on a business and marketing end. I myself, studied the incredible system of the French, in which they produced an Olympic caliber animal
the Selle Francais, in 60 years! By studying the mechanics of sporthorse conformation, breeding appropriate animals together, then starting an extensive and extremely rigorous testing system, they were able to do thing in an extremely short amount of time (comparatively speaking). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THAT's what I'm talking about.

The adventure has begun...
KT

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 23, 2003, 09:18 AM

Hi ise@ssl ...

As I said before, ISE, I started this thread :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> What prompted this thread was--as usual--the huge difference between here and there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But thanks for the information on your registry!

The adventure has begun...
KT

Sporthorse South

Jul. 23, 2003, 10:10 AM

Oldenburg Mom - remember that my figures are only for Oldenburg. According to some statistics I saw published recently in a German magazine, Hanover alone produces nearly twice as many foals each year as Oldenburg. If 50% of them are colts, then that is 7500 colts born each year in just those two regions alone. Add in the number of colts produced each year in other regions such as Westphalia, Holstein, Rhineland, Reinland Pfalz-Saar, etc., and it really starts to become pretty clear that it will be very tough for North American breeders to "catch up." Of course, not all these colts will be stallion material, but if even 1% of them are, that might be more than the number that are born in North America each year.

Not saying that there aren't some really good colts born here - I know there are, and I know that some of them are probably as good as many colts in Germany, but Germany has the obvious advantage based on sheer numbers. So the answer to your question - "is this one reason why buyers import" is YES. Even with exchange rate issues, importation costs and other hassles, if a buyer is looking for a stallion prospect colt - esp. one from specific bloodlines - it makes a heck of a lot of sense to look in Germany where you can see so many within a few days time that suit your specific criteria.

Regarding whether it is better to shop with a big breeder or a small farmer, it totally depends on how much risk and responsibility you are willing to assume. You can usually get better prices from small breeders, but you often get better service from the big operations because of their bigger and better-trained staff, and the fact that they have already taken so many buyers through the process that they understand what is involved. One bit of advice though - until you have built up your own network in Germany, it is always a good idea to work through the Verband office when shopping. They know who has the best quality and services for the money, and they can also help you avoid "unscrupulous" breeders or dealers.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 23, 2003, 10:25 AM

Sporthorse ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>...remember that my figures are only for Oldenburg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know. This just blows me away.

Attention all breeders. If you were wondering WHY (you probably weren't ... I was the one wondering why) THIS is the reason. It's NOT because you aren't breeding quality! If I were a breeder, this would both reassure me AND make me throw up my hands in disgust.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>...but Germany has the obvious advantage based on sheer numbers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No joke. This is the issue boys and girls. I had no idea ... And BTW, this has nothing to do with specifically colts or stallion prospects. It has to do with looking for anything. What an awakening this is!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>...it is always a good idea to work through the Verband office <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just an aside, as this thread isn't about specifics ... but I have worked through the Oldenburg Verband office on one or two issues and have found them just wonderful: helpful, sympathetic and very accomodating. Kudos.

Sporthorse, thank you for the info. I would have thought this would be information that would fascinate any US breeder. It also explains a LOT.

The adventure has begun...
KT

Home Again Farm

Jul. 23, 2003, 11:50 AM

Hi KT,

I know you are new to this. These stats are not at all new to me. I am well aware of the numbers bred in Europe and the convenience factor of shopping over there.

However, I have also found that I have a very good market here for foals from well established, high quality damlines by stallions that are either top German stallions or well known US stallions. I am not saying that I am selling to the Gunter Seidels of this world. But I am selling to folks who are looking for specific traits and for one reason or another don't want to go to Europe.

I also owe the German breeders a lot because I have availed myself of their horses (three of my mares are imported and most if not all of the stallions I have bred to were either still in Germany or imported). I also regularly seek out advice and information from them so owe them for sharing and their knowledge, too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I DO think that these stats make it VERY hard for folks who want to breed and raise stallion prospects. It has proven to be extremely unusual to successfully get a colt from birth through the 100 day test and all the interim hurdles. So many things can go wrong along the way.

I breed because I love doing so. I hope to break even most of the time and make a few pennies here and there. But I do it because I love it. That is the payback that keeps the sheer magnitude of my "competition" from sending me into a tailspin of despair. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Mary Lou

http://www.homeagainfarm.com

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 23, 2003, 12:24 PM

Hey Mary Lou ...

I'm not looking to breed. I want to do what I'm doing: finding a baby I think is just the bees knees and bringing him along. Colt, filly or gelding.

Yup, I want to do young horses with my partners (yes, I have more than one.) I've got two and I want a third next year.

Hmmmmm. What *am* I trying to say here? I guess I'm trying to say first, you guys have a LOT of guts. Second, here's my support. And third, no wonder it's tough. I had no idea that there are soooo many being born over there. And, I have to admit, it makes me ask, "what happens to the ones which don't find homes?"

Having said that, again, I think it is critically important to support the small US breeder. The ones I have met, so far, are exceptional people and make a herculean effort to get their breeding "right" ... focusing on quality not quantity. One or two impeccably bred a year. They've got zero margin for error so they make their choices sooooo carefully.

What I'd like to see, however, is --as Seraph suggested earlier -- some sort of breeders' co-op.

I guess at the end of the day, it's all a learning experience. Gee, you guys have a long row to hoe.

The adventure has begun...
KT

Del

Jul. 23, 2003, 06:43 PM

Oldenburg Mom;
Not being a sport horse breeder myself, but a 'small' pony breeder, I fully agree with your comments below in your last post:
-----------------------------------------------
Having said that, again, I think it is critically important to support the small US breeder. The ones I have met, so far, are exceptional people and make a herculean effort to get their breeding "right" ... focusing on quality not quantity. One or two impeccably bred a year. They've got zero margin for error so they make their choices sooooo carefully.
-----------------------------------------------
That is sooo correct! The small breeder has to be very careful indeed, no matter what country they are from.
Their programs tend to be more focussed on both a) producing top quality animals in smaller numbers(as you say they cannot afford not to!)
and b) attention to detail - this includes knowing all facets of their mares and the stallions they use. In addition to this they tend to be better folks to deal with for the long term.

Just my thoughts to add to the 'general' discussion.

Good luck with your search!!
PS Someone over here posted a pic on a bulletin board of a glorious black Warmblood colt they had bought as a baby recently - they were fussy buyers, took their time and got what they wanted. He is by a horse called "Jive Magic".
I'm not a huge W/blood fan, but this colt was truly glorious and beautifully bred too on the dam's side being out of a full sister to Vicky Roycrofts "Snowshoes" (Jumping lines)
Hat's off to these people who found a real gem!!

Ascot Stud - Welsh & Riding Ponies
Home of the Riding Pony Stallions:
Ascot Classic Silk (A.I) (also American Sport Pony)
Ascot Royal Tribute (A.I)
Gaylord Of Ascot
Ascot Stud (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ascotstud/Index.html)

*SERAPH*

Jul. 23, 2003, 07:12 PM

"Even with exchange rate issues, importation costs and other hassles, if a buyer is looking for a stallion prospect colt - esp. one from specific bloodlines - it makes a heck of a lot of sense to look in Germany where you can see so many within a few days time that suit your specific criteria."

Okay, SENSE versus providing a long-term market in America. Educate.Educate.Educate. What is appropriate sporthorse conformation? Temperament? One should be able to do this without a "verband" or even a "registry" telling them this is such the case! Looking at sporthorse mechanics and the required or theoretically required appropriate "conformation" and movement desired for such, one can find that anywhere. As far as specific, marketable bloodlines, one can still find that anywhere! Again, I challenge the breeders in America to study the beginnings of every European warmblood registry. We've become too fixated, unlike them when they started. THINK OUT OF THE BOX!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Ashemont

Jul. 23, 2003, 10:09 PM

Breeders are organizing to promote our US product. We have just formed the North Carolina Warmblood Breeders group and with just a little effort have a sales list of almost a hundred quality horses within a couple hours driving distance. Very easy to see a number of any kind/type of warmblood you're interested in. There are now many such groups throughout the country. We breeders ARE trying to make it easier for buyers. We understand it's not cost-effective to travel great distances to see only one or two horses and we are addressing the issue.

But you're comparing apples to oranges in most cases. A baby born in the US is most likely handled since birth. It's also regularly dewormed, vaccinated, has it's feet trimmed, etc. etc. Yes they produce large numbers of horses in Germany but the babies are usually turned out in large groups. The majority do not receive the care and handling that the US born babies receive. Many farms will have hundreds of babies crowded together and it is very much survival of the fittest. Remember, there IS a market over there for horsemeat and don't think for a moment that a lot of those horses are not registered stock.

You also could easily be buying a time-bomb with an import. Deworming is not usually done as frequently and oftentimes worm damage only becomes apparent when the horse is older. I have seen way too many acquaintances lose their expensive import to colic caused by worm damage done at a young age.

We've been breeding international quality warmbloods in the US for almost 20 years now. We have watched the quality of horses steadily improve at the Keurings we've hosted for over 15 years. The horses are right here in the US and I'll be more than happy to share our NC sales list with anyone who's interested (our website is almost ready and all sales horses will soon be listed online).

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

*SERAPH*

Jul. 24, 2003, 03:41 AM

Pat--I'm in upstate SC. I would be interested in seeing the NC list!

You are so correct about the care and handling that our young horses receive here. And you're more than likely 100% correct about them not getting wormed over "there"; after all, they do have a thriving horsemeat market in Europe and Asia. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

ise@ssl

Jul. 24, 2003, 03:42 AM

Thanks Pat - your comments are so on point regarding health and animal husbandry. I always feel this "rose colored glasses" gaze toward Europe needs to be removed. Having been there - it's a different process and quite honestly I don't feel the US will ever be a carbon copy of Germany/Holland and I feel that's a good thing.

FYI - The prices for horses in Europe are at a very low level right now. Why? Well they keep breeding at the same levels, we are increasing our breeding and with the economy the purchase of horses is not increasing. Sort of a financial graph for a huge downturn. Friends who have been to Germany and know breeders tell me they are holding way more horses than they have in the past and "carry" on young horses is the monetary killer>

Oldenburg Mom seems to feel we are doing a great job here - but why bother to try to find a US bred horse - when you can just head on over to Germany and see a zillion at a time. (Pat's right on this - we saw up to 120 in one heard at one facility) But again they are not handled and it is survival of the fittest. So if you want a dominant kid - it's a great place to shop.

We know of people who've had serious problems with the worming issue on horses AFTER they arrived here and were put into work later.

Buyers need to weigh the pros and cons. But HEY! when you import a horse and have problems - you pretty much have no recourse. If you buy one here - you stand a better chance of having an ongoing dialogue with the breeder or at least checking them out with their other customers. We maintain a relationship with all of our customers. We have added a Sponsorship Rebate program to our sales. We rebate 5% of the purchase price to the buyer for entry fees at breed shows or performance shows and provide them with a custom cooler to use - with the horse's name, their name as owner and ours as breeder. We feel our involvement with the horse is ongoing - so we are happy to have our name attached to the horse and to give back some money to the buyer.

Twinkletozzz

Jul. 24, 2003, 03:50 AM

As an experienced horse buyer, I can't think there would ever be an easier way to buy a horse than via the internet, cross country or Europe. But I know exactly what I want - I don't need to see 300 horses - and I surf until I find it, hop on the plane or get into the car and go see the beastie. My vet at home contacts a vet there, they talk, I test the horsey, I do the deal, don't do the deal and voila, the horse arrives-the whole thing is done in a matter of days. Same for Europe really although it's more expensive to fly there and look, more cumbersome to do vetting and what-not, and more expensive to import. That having been said, and this is the most important thing to me, I simply cannot look my fellow breeders in the eye and buy abroad.
The bigger picture is something I'm not particularly concerned about (where we are versus the world in warmblood breeding and sport, that is). We've never been a nation who likes to be anything but first and neither our huge size nor our relative newness to warmblood breeding will squelch that.
Just my personal point of view.

Sporthorse South

Jul. 24, 2003, 03:55 AM

Seraph, the reason I and my clients have been shopping in Germany is because we want horses bred using the same principles that have made the European warmblood horse #1 in the world in dressage and jumping. The VERBANDS established the guidelines that produced those horses, so it makes SENSE for us to look for horses bred according to those guidelines. Horses that do not fit those criteria do not interest us, no matter where they were bred. And, for the record, we HAVE looked at quite a few American-bred warmblood horses, but for the most part, they have NOT fit our criteria of bloodlines, quality, perceived value, etc. I'm not saying we will never buy American - in fact, I have a client strongly considering an American-bred horse now. She was willing to import, but I found a suitable horse for her here in the U.S., and we will hopefully close the deal within the next few weeks (pending vet check). However, I want to stress again - as Oldenburg Mom has pointed out - the main reason I and my clients like to shop in Germany is because we can see SO MANY at one time. If a client wants an Oldenburg mare with specific bloodlines, we can usually find quite a few, and see them all, with one short trip to Germany. Whereas in the U.S., we might be lucky to find one or two who suit our criteria. And if they are the ONLY ones here, we don't have much of a choice. I want to be able to select from 10-20 prospects that suit my exact criteria, not just a few!

Also - Ashemont, as you know, I am a big proponent of regional breeders groups. I think they can be a great marketing tool as long as breeders support them. Some of these groups are doing quite well, but others have dissolved due to lack of support. They also take a heck of a lot of work on the part of the organizer or coordinator, and I applaud the folks who are willing to take on such a task. Good luck with your North Carolina group!

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 03:58 AM

A couple of thoughts ... and BTW, I'm glad to hear everyone's comments here. What's surprising to me is we're all agreeing (basically)

Seraph - are you sure we're not related LOL?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Again, I challenge the breeders in America to study the beginnings of every European warmblood registry. We've become too fixated, unlike them when they started. THINK OUT OF THE BOX!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more. Of course, I'm such a novice I'm not even sure what the box is ... but I sure know it's best to think OUT of it!

Ashemont -

Actually, when I was looking for BabyDumpling I contacted you. And you did an exceptional job of responding, several times as I recall. (Well done!)

But your comment merely confirms what I've said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Breeders are organizing to promote our US product. We have just formed the North Carolina Warmblood Breeders group and with just a little effort have a sales list of almost a hundred quality horses within a couple hours driving distance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're talking about almost 100 horses. And you're trying to compete with the German, government support system, with thousands of babies to choose from.

And by highlighting this, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm saying: HEaven's sake. NO WONDER.

Again, I WANT to buy good old US grown. I want my cash to support you, your breeding efforts, and not the already well established German/European system.

And no, I don't think I am comparing apples to oranges. The handling IS different in Europe. And from my research so far, at least as far as colts go (and let's not get distracted with a big conversation on this) is that the best thing for them are colt "gangs" ... being raised as HORSES, not hot house flowers. The worming issue is a valid one, however; the first thing my vet did when BD arrived was a power pack worming.

And also, yes, I agree. It would be just plain stupid to think that with these kinds of numbers being bred/born a health percentage is not ending up in the butchers' window.

Ok. Yet again what's the point of this post. Well, I guess to acknowledge you guys out there and to continue the discussion.

------------

The question becomes, then, since we all basically agree, what can anyone/any group do?

To be honest, as a buyer, my first suggestion to each and every breeder out there is this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Keep your website current. And if you don't have one, get one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The adventure has begun...
KT

aurum

Jul. 24, 2003, 04:06 AM

Excuse me, but this all sounds very snobish to me and I do not agree with it. I am deeply offended and disgusted by seeing that many inaccuracies and seeing our breeding management slammed. The quality of European horses is unbeatable worldwide - now "I" might sound chauvinistic. Europeans have been breeding Warmbloods for hundreds of years and Americans have been breeding Warmbloods for about maximum 20 years, so how can the above be true? No European Quarter Horse breeder would ever say or think like that. We always learn and we always improve. The American WB breeding is way behind the European WB breeding. We have started with heavy stock and influenced the Arabian and TBs slowly. America does mostly have TB mare base and must breed to stallions that will equalize to a modern WB sport horse. In Europe there is only little TB influence when in the USA there is mostly TB influence on the dam side. There are centuries until America will reach the level of European breeding. And as long as some American breeders think that a TB crossed with a Percheron, Cydesdale or Shire etc does make a WB they are on the wrong way. Why do Americans always think that they are the best and can do, learn and offer what others achieved in centuries in a much shorter time like only decades. I think this is the problem that is the biggest here. To improve the breeding stock in the USA, Americans MUST import, otherwise they would be stuck with a small range for a huge country. America is already very tight with bloodlines as everybody wants only to import the fashion bloodlines and not others that are as good as the top managed ones but the stallion owners do not have big companies with lots of money behind them to advertise their stallions in the same manner. F.e. German QH breeders ALWAYS import minimum 50% of their stock from the USA and the good quality QHs are as expensive as a good WB when they arrive here with import.

The reason why buyers import is the quality, the possiblilty of a bigger choice and the price which is often smaller including import than buying in the USA. But that is no wonder since the costs in America are so tremendous high! When I hear what you charge for a box stall, what the horse feed, hay and straw costs and what the vets and horse hospitals take for the care of health of the animals, I can understand why the American horses are expensive. They are expensive as the breeder must survive the costs that are outrageous in my eyes! The only thing I have found quite equal to Germany, is the cost of farrier, palpation and ultrasound, but the rest is much more expensive. After all the most breeders do handle their horses and they are regularly dewormed. I do not know where you have been to get such ideas.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

[This message was edited by aurum on Jul. 28, 2003 at 02:24 PM.]

Ashemont

Jul. 24, 2003, 04:28 AM

Gwen,

You are one of the better breeders in Germany. Yours are not raised in lots of 100+ and each one is handled and cared-for. But you cannot deny that you are not in the majority.

As for us being so far behind Germany? Well I started with a States Premium mare and a Verbands Premium mare. I started with the best I could fine in Germany so how does that put me behind? I have had inspectors from several Verbands tell me that my horses would be extremely competitive in Germany. My last two foals scored 8.7 and 8.1 respectively - I don't think those are inferior scores in any way. I have bred horses that have been EXported to Germany... again, certainly not something that would happen with a horse that was inferior.

We don't have the meat market to throw away our rejects so we have to be doubly careful in chosing are matches, raising our babies, starting our youngsters. The expense of raising a horse on this side of the pond IS higher. But I think that this is not necessarily a bad thing because it makes us even more careful.

Yes, we still have many uneducated breeders who think crossing a Shire with a TB is a true WB, but it's getting better. I know I am not alone in my breeding program. I can easily name dozens of others in NC alone who have done the same thing - started with Germany's best and improved from there. Isn't that the American way?

And I don't see how you can say we don't have as many bloodlines as you have in Germany. Just because we don't have a baby by the latest approved stallion doesn't mean we haven't got the bloodlines of his sire and dam.

I don't know about others but I have always been patriotic and tried to buy American when I could. Since 9/11 and with our current economy I'm even more diligent in that regard. If we don't help ourselves I doubt there is any other country in the world that is going to do so. And I think this applies to the horse industry too.

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 04:29 AM

Sorry ...

I just saw page 2. Ooops.

Comments:

ISE - <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I don't feel the US will ever be a carbon copy of Germany/Holland <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We CAN'T compete: 1. We don't have govenment sponsorship and 2. We refuse to enter the secondary meat market this high-volume breeding would demand.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Oldenburg Mom seems to feel we are doing a great job here - but why bother to try to find a US bred horse - when you can just head on over to Germany and see a zillion at a time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't get this one quite right. I'm saying, "Hell's Bells. No wonder you breeders are up in arms. You're playing against a stacked deck." And, more importantly, I feel for you people.

Twinkletozzz ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I can't think there would ever be an easier way to buy a horse than via the internet, cross country or Europe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I found BD because of this BB and the internet. But unlike you, I am not experienced. And the marketplace has to make room for BOTH of us. I am taking 3- to 4-months to locate a prospect before I present it to my partner. Because I don't have the money, or time, to make a mistake.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The bigger picture is something I'm not particularly concerned about (where we are versus the world in warmblood breeding and sport, that is). We've never been a nation who likes to be anything but first and neither our huge size nor our relative newness to warmblood breeding will squelch that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't agree with you here. I'll look HERE first, and exaustively. Is it harder, yes. But without buyers supporting the US breeders, they will never flourish. Or if they do, it will be at a much much higher price. That means, before anything else, I'm looking at the big picture... because you are right too ... we're a nation that likes to be first.

Sporthorse ...

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO STARTED ALL THIS!!!! LOL.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>the reason I and my clients have been shopping in Germany is because we want horses bred using the same principles that have made the European warmblood horse #1 in the world in dressage and jumping. The VERBANDS established the guidelines that produced those horses <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. The Verbands set their own standards. And if you look at what's being produced, obviously, they are doing something right. But again, they've been doing it for ... how many years?

Except for the Selle Francais, of course (jump in here and help me out Seraph.)

The adventure has begun...
KT

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 04:49 AM

Aurum,

It's great to have an opinion from the other side of the pond. And I think you make some very good points:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>But that is no wonder since the costs in America are so tremendous high! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a big issue as we receive no government sanction/support. The US economy, except for certain highly specific agricultural areas, is private. Which is not the case in Europe. That also means that costs are ALWAYS passed on to the consumer, whether it be 4- or 2-footed.

And yes, there are people that think that TBs crossed with a Percheron, etc., are a warmblood. But these people really do not factor into the equations we are talking about: they are not breeders. They are not buyers. They are not training high level jumpers/dressage horses, regardless of breeding.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>everybody wants only to import the fashion bloodlines and not others that are as good as the top managed ones but the stallion owners do not have big companies with lots of money behind them to advertise their stallions in the same manner <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you talking about small GERMAN breeders?

Well, I will tell you this. If I DO go to Germany to buy my next baby, I will visit the small German breeder first. It is good that you understand the position of the small breeder.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The reason why buyers import is the quality, the possiblilty of a bigger choice and the price which is often smaller including import than buying in the USA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quality. Probably. Choice - Yes, yes, yes. Price. Maybe.

The adventure has begun...
KT

siegi b.

Jul. 24, 2003, 04:51 AM

To Oldenburg Mom - being able to look at almost a hundred foals within a fairly small geographic area is certainly on par with what you can do in Germany. Even if the total numbers are much greater, it doesn't mean that anybody goes to Europe to actually LOOK at 1000's of foals. In my opinion, just looking at close to 100 would be overwhelming to say the least.
Aurum's point is well taken.... the Europeans do know how to raise warmbloods - they've been doing it for a long, long time. And the Americans know how to raise TB's, quarterhorses, Tennessee Walkers,etc., and have started to become proficient in raising warmbloods. I doubt that you will ever see the kind of numbers of warmbloods here that you see in Europe - there simply wouldn't be a market here for all that horseflesh. Besides, all those horses would drive the prices down and we all know that wouldn't be good for breeders.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 04:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by siegi b.:
...it doesn't mean that anybody goes to Europe to actually LOOK at 1000's of foals. In my opinion, just looking at close to 100 would be overwhelming to say the least.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely, couldn't agree more.

But it means that ... like a bell shaped curve ... you are going to have more at the top, e.g., with 100 you're going to have 5 at the very top, 5 at the very bottom, 10 that are almost at the top (and bottom) 15 that are a little better than average (and worse) and 40 that are average.

If you original pool is larger, say 500, then you're going to have 25 at the very top to look at.

Get my drift?

The adventure has begun...
KT

aurum

Jul. 24, 2003, 05:01 AM

Pat, I meant in general, there is always an exception to the rule....

As for the government support, I really do not understand why Americans always get that idea! NOBODY in Germany that is breeding horses gets financial support!!! That is a huge fairy tale that Americans have started to tell the audience.

In a lot of the posts there is something that does not sound good for people of other countries:

"We Americans are the biggest, the greatest, the best.... " thinking like this can avoid learning to do better and better.....

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 05:19 AM

Aurum,

There may not be specific financial support for horse breeders.

But as we all know, breeding is a business. If a breeder, self employed, in this country has to pay $500 per month for health costs, that cost is passed on to the business.

Germany, like other EEC countries, to the best of my knowledge has a national health program.

There is also, again, please correct me if I am incorrect, has an established, government sponsored program for riders.

All these things contribute to the high costs you originally cited in your post.

But this is not this issue. And when I began this thread, it was not to criticize any nationality. It was to promote lively conversation on the subject of domestic breeders/breeding and ... obviously ... the reason why many people bought from Europe.

Let me also add, I am sure, like all the breeders here in the US, all you are interested in is exceptional horses. That's what's important!

The adventure has begun...
KT

Cartier

Jul. 24, 2003, 05:19 AM

Aurum,

About breeders thumping their chest and saying the “We American do it better” .. I’ll agree it could get obnoxious over time… just as it’s obnoxious when other do the same. We’ve heard “German do it better” for years and that too gets old over time. (And I think that a lot of Americans are much more sensitive about American’s always being “the nice guy” and getting kicked in the teeth for being nice at some later point in time. So maybe you're seeing a more patriotic feeling lately). And I think you have to factor in a couple of cold hard facts, one of which is Germans do breed a great deal more horses… so they have more at the top and more at the bottom… lots, lots more. And you do have a different ethic about raising foals and what to do with foals/horses which do NOT measure up.

AS for “government support” for equine activities, maybe what your disagreeing with is the term itself. It seems that you define “support” as something along the lines of direct cash payments to breeders (in the form of tax credit). From our vantage, point your society as a whole (i.e., your government) supports your equine activities in a myriad of ways, some subtle, some overt, which are all a form of general “government or societal support” which we simply do not enjoy in this country.

ise@ssl

Jul. 24, 2003, 05:45 AM

I don't think American Breeders are thumping their chest and saying we are better - I feel we are saying we are just as good but we have a different market here than Europe.

Also Aurum - how many trips to the US have you made to be able to say we are so far behind?

This isn't rocket science. The Germans, Dutch, etc. etc. have documented the programs they have and what worked and what didn't. Americans don't have to re-invent the wheel and in the context of a start-up business we already know the information that has been amassed in the European breeding systems. So using time-line as a barometer of success isn't valid.

When Ford invented the automobile - many other companies followed suit - they didn't have to start where he did. In fact many took the Ford car apart and figured it all out and many improved on deficiencies. AND - they determined which MARKET SEGMENT they would aim their product at and what the various markets demanded.

The US market demands different horses. Pure and simple. Yes - there are top professional riders looking for the same horse as Europeans. BUT there is a much bigger AMATEUR market here in the US looking for a horse that Europeans are not looking for. Plus we have a HUGE Hunter market - which many European breeders are still scratching their heads over - and trying to figure out what horse fits this market.

People can go to Europe and buy whatever they want. Saying they can't find something here - doesn't work for me.

Plus with respect to the "herd" raising. Most of us who are breeders have our colts our together but we don't have 100+ in a group - where they are all vying for the same feed. Sorry folks - we saw many skinny kids in those groups and some big fat bullies as well. Our boys all go out together - after weanling age they go out with the older boys. But they all come into stalls for part of the day depending on the season. With halters on leadlines and we feel that's a better product for the US market.

Also this concept of pedigree is sort of a mixed bag. We keep getting thumped about it but the warmblood breeders in this country are very knowledgeable in this regard. The buyers are for the most part - NOT. Those who are looking for colts or fillies for breeding purposes have some base of knowledge but there's no big financial differential when it comes to the average buyer. I'm not sure how long it will take for the US buyer to get to the level of selecting horses based on pedigrees with respect to sporthorses. But the breeders are certainly not lacking in this category.

And Oldenburg Mom - when you insert certain quotes - please make sure you note that not all of them were MINE! Thanks.

aurum

Jul. 24, 2003, 05:47 AM

Cartier and Oldenburg Mom, there is NO support, not financial nor in any other way for the breeders. What kind of national health program??? I do not understand what you mean with support. If I need the vet for my horses, I have to pay him like any other person. If my horse needs to have surgery I need to pay for it like any other person. If I have my horse started by a dressage or jumping rider in another facility, I need to pay for that the same amount like any other person. WE ARE NOT supported in ANY way! But the costs of all of these things might be not as high as in your country, but that has nothing to do with some support, it is because life is cheaper here than over there. To give you some figures, a round bale of hay (350 kilograms) is 25 Euro, a big bale of straw (200 kilograms) is 12 Euro, if you buy pellets in huge doses, you get 100 kilograms of pellets for 21 Euro. The farrier is 20 Euro including the holder of the horse feets, the palpation is 10 Euro, the ultrasound is 20 Euro etc. The board and training with a good rider is between 500 and 600 Euro. For example Lars Nieberg charges 500 Euro per month and Holga Finken charges 600 per month to give you a figure. But nothing of all this is sponsored or supported by any government part. In contrary the tax department puts horse breeding under "hobbies" and you do not get a dime back like you over there with your tax reduction when you buy breeding stock and have a breeding facility, nothing like that here in Germany. Breeding of horses is considered as hobby and you must make profit to get the status for getting a tax benefit. Most of the breeders do not make profit, but deficit and therefore no support in any way.

The only thing that is supported by the government is the states stud, but the only people that can profit from that are those breeders that use a states stud stallion and that is very rare in Germany. Hessen and Zweibruecken are in red chiffres and get pressure to sell stallions since they do not get enough income. I do not know about other states studs but I heard it is not looking good for them. The only states studs that are still running good are those of Hannover and Westfalen.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

ise@ssl

Jul. 24, 2003, 05:50 AM

Oh and talk about "chest thumping". When we were in Hanover - and mentioned we were moving on to Westfalia - the horse people in Hanover were rather indignent stating "what are you going there for - WE BREED THE BEST HORSES IN THE WORLD". So it's pretty clear the chest thumping exists even between the various breeds in Germany. And don't ask the Germans about Dutch Horses or Selle Francaise or vice versa - you'll never hear them say - oh they are just as good as ours http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ashemont

Jul. 24, 2003, 05:50 AM

Sorry Gwen but again I have to disagree. In Germany breeders get awards when their babies go on to competition and do well. My other German friends were very surprised that I did not receive any cash awards for my stallion's recent wins at 4th level... they find it hard to believe that I do not receive any awards for producing so many Premium babies and Elite mares. The gentleman we bought our first two horses from in Germany is always getting awards and cash bonuses for his babies that have been sold but go on to win. He received a lovely award and check when he produced his third Premium mare. The breeders are held in far higher regard in Germany and do receive financial rewards which we do not receive in this country.

Plus there is the indirect support which others have mentioned. Here horses are mostly considered a hobby by our government and just maintaining them as a busines with the few perks that offers can often be a challenge.

Our two countries will never be equal because of the many differences but I still maintain that we are perfectly capable - and DO - produce horses on a par with Germany. Many of us took the best you had to offer, learned from you, have the Verbands guiding us just as they guide you, and we produce international quality athletes. I would hope buyers would at least make a little effort to shop locally before hopping overseas. I think many will be pleasantly surprised.

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

aurum

Jul. 24, 2003, 05:56 AM

Pat the awards that you mean is a ribbon and a plaquette and perhaps even a trophy stating that now you have an approved stallion or a premium mare, the maximum money might be a 50 Euro check for a well doing horse on a show, but that is a drop on a stone and nothing more. As for the money you get if your horses win, well I get these checks each year and it is a laugh! The horse winnings on competitions are only high in the international levels for those that are competing until M (4th) level, the money is not big. I have some of my horses competing very successfully here in Germany but my yearly check is between 100 and 250 Euro for more than 5 horses competing successfully. That is not much that one can gain with that.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

ise@ssl

Jul. 24, 2003, 05:59 AM

Aurum - with Euro/dollar conversion your costs are still way below ours:
Your costs vs. our costs: Farrier $22.8 vs. $45 (for trim only); Palpation $11.4 vs. $20.00; Ultrasound $22.80 vs $50.00. Board & Training $627 vs. $1100.

Plus your stud fees are considerably lower than ours. Even for worldclass stallions.

And within your country shipping costs are much less if at all - I know many mares are live treatied. with Federal Express & Insurance on the Equitainer we can drop another $50 for each shipment ....one way.

It is a lot cheaper to put a WB on the ground in your country than in ours - unless you are in a very remote area - but those area's do not usually have a lot of repro vets and require additional shipping charges.

ise@ssl

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:02 AM

Gwen the $100-250 you receive yearly is still more than the BIG FAT ZERO WE RECEIVE in this country.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:05 AM

Aurum,

Please, don't be on the defensive. That was not my ... or I'm sure anyone's else's ... intention.

This thread is not meant to be an argument. And, as the person that started the thread, if it continues this way I'm just going to say forget it, and lock it.

Obviously, the system that has been established in Germany is exceptional... otherwise everyone would not be flocking over there to buy horses.

So...

I did not mean VET costs. Yes, we're ALL stuck with those! A lot of our finer Universities are private ... education in Europe is largely government subsidized. All these things, in the US, add up and are passed on ... higher vet fees. When I mentioned national health, I was using it as an example ... HUMAN health insurance, for the small business owner and employees, are a very high cost. We also have the "hobby" problem with our taxes ... you have 5 years to show a profit, plus there must be evidence that you are TRYING to make a profit.

But this is waaaay off base. The costs of running a small business, whether it be in Germany, the US or the moon are high. And, with horses it's difficult to make a profit... if not impossible. That is not the topic of this thread.

So...

The adventure has begun...
KT

*SERAPH*

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:06 AM

"We Americans are the biggest, the greatest, the best.... " thinking like this can avoid learning to do better and better.....

With all due respect, Aurum, we have very good reasons to believe this. And whether or not this makes the rest of the world angry or not, I am not capitulating and appologizing for it. We are a nation that was formed by many peoples who believed in an unprecedented ideal and we, for most extents and purposes (while acknowledging the fallabilities of mankind), have been successful in being the best at most things.

Aside from that, this is nothing personal toward you, Aurum. I love the horses you produce and am sure that they are magnificent in every way. But at the same time, America has produced far more than the QH; which by the way, no other breed of horse is superior to as far as for what uses it was produced for, in the world--same goes for the Standardbred, which the French nor Russian trotter can be compared to; our Thoroughbreds are the fastest and have been the greatest to ever run on a track, shall I continue? And we are not considered a nation of phenomenal horse breeders? Quite frankly, we have only let ourselves down, as breeders, because we got caught up in the boom market of the nineties and the warmblood craze Europe specifically tailormade for us. (I'm not talking about the high-end horses they were/are producing for their own riders to compete successfully internationally).

And, let me remind you, as I throw on my flame suit (which is HEAVILY fire-retardant, btw http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif) we have been breeding a warmblood in this country as long as any European nation has been "breeding" their "warmbloods". The breed is called the American Saddlebred. Those of you who think Saddlebreds are naturally "gaited" are incorrect. They naturally move (some of them) in a more animated fashion which is enhanced by the gaited world with special shoes, training, et. Read the history of how the Euro warmbloods developed, out of what types of horses, and what they were infused with. Also, note, that it has really only been within the last 50 years that many of the warmbloods have gone from being heavy trotting/artillery hauling/plow-pulling animals to what they are now. As a matter of fact, for most of the warmbloods, this sort of change has occurred numerous times throughout history depending on the use the animals were needed to fulfill.

I would say, of them all, that only the Selle Francais/Anglo-Arab stud, the Trakehner stud, and the Irish Draught/sporthorse breeders have been actively producing horses suited for Olympic type disciplines for any vast amount of time. So this , "we've been breeding for an Olympic caliber horse for over 200 years" is a load of crap. This is not mean't to be an insult to any breeders of any warmbloods--they are magnificent animals; just trying to set the story straight.

Lastly, after reading the histories of each European registry, and studying conformation photos, from say as recent as 40 years ago, and noting the native breeds that were used as foundation stock for the infusions of Thoroughbred, Anglo-Arab, and Shagya blood, please go and read the history of the American Saddlebred, which HAS been bred for over 260 years, study for what uses it was created for, study it's conformation (I will say some breeders have gotten away from what it should be), and also note what breed was used for showjumping in America, as a general rule, 50-60 years ago.

When I say, "Think out of the box", and "Educate.Educate.Educate.", this is what I am talking about. Our greatest drawback as modern sporthorse breeders is that we have stopped thinking about what components make a great sporthorse. We let "verbands" and "registries" decide that for us. One can learn many things from the European registries...so I advocate we study, use our thought processes, take some risks, and apply action. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*NOTE* I absolutely agree with verbands and registries that breeding animals should be tested for their sporthorse capabilities as well as what they pass on to offspring.

And, Olderburg Mom, I believe we were separated at birth....

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

aurum

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:07 AM

Ilona that was my point. Everything is much cheaper here so we can sell our horses at lower prices, but if everything is costly over there you just cannot sell them for a certain amount and that is the problem of the price difference.

So WHY is everything in America so expensive? I had my TB filly in the horse hospital for one week due to a severe colic and she had treatment day and night since she had a very bad obstipation (spelling?) that needed 4 days to pass away. Thank God no need of surgery. The total bill for all the treatments and 7 days was 350 Euro. A colic surgery is 2500 Euro in total without complications and a castrations is 130 Euro in total including the supervision a week later.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Cartier

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:10 AM

Gwen,

Please...just read what you wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The only thing that is supported by the government is the states stud, but the only people that can profit from that are those breeders that use a states stud stallion and that is very rare in Germany. Hessen and Zweibruecken are in red chiffres and get pressure to sell stallions since they do not get enough income. I do not know about other states studs but I heard it is not looking good for them. The only states studs that are still running good are those of Hannover and Westfalen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We DO NOT HAVE STATE STUDS... and that is just one example of the "government support" German breeders have the option of using which we in this country do not enjoy.

The breeders in Germany breed a great deal more and some of their horses are indeed spectacular. But they have not been breeding the modern warmblood sport horse for hundreds of years… that’s silly. And Germans would have to give credit to the French for tremendous strides in improving the modern WB in the past 40 years. But these great WB horses are a reflection of many things, including great marketing a la Paul Schockemöhle´. And these great horses weren’t necessarily produced because of a handful of Verband officials. Many of the great influential stallions were bred by breeders thinking outside the box. One could even argue that many of the great influential sires were only grudgingly accepted after-the-fact by the Verbands.

One other cold hard fact is that the GOV came to this country back in the 1980’s and it seems they saw us as a huge cash cow… so they played with our market place, for a length of time equal to five equine generations, approving mediocre stallions for the “American Market” which would not be approved in Germany, and authorizing their GOV officials to inspect and brand in their behalf, then trying to turn their back on what was done in their name. They took a blank slate (the US) and in the period from 1988 through1998 had four separate organizations/registries inspecting and branding Oldenburgs in this country (two of registries the court said were operating illegally).

So when we make comparisons between the GOV and American Quarter Horse breeders selling abroad, I do not believe that our QH breeders went to Germany and played with the market (the way the GOV did here) with the end result being that there are two standards of QH’s being bred: the “GOOD ones” for American’s to continue to sell, and “marginal ones” for frustrated German breeders to try to market competitively.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:13 AM

Seraph ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And, Oldenburg Mom, I believe we were separated at birth....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Waaahaaaahaaaa.

Aurum,

As I said before ... everything, or almost everything in this country is PRIVATE.

That means the consumer, as the last fish in the food chain, PAYS and PAYS and PAYS ... for everyone else up the ladder.

The adventure has begun...
KT

ise@ssl

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:14 AM

AND THERE'S ONE BIG FAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BUYING IN EUROPE AND BUYING IN THE US.

The Pre-Purchase Vetting Exam.

In this country it is becoming the end of many viable sales. Vets are so fearful of being held responsible that they put these poor young horses through HOURS AND HOURS of vetting and x-rays and more x-rays and you name it. They flex them to point of crippling them.

You will not get this level of exam on horses in Europe unless you demand it.

We know that x-rays on youngsters can look different from week to week - but some Vets will sell a "package deal" to their clients and take hundreds and hundreds of dollars of x-rays. They note every single tiny detail and then often fail to explain to the client what this can or cannot mean for performance. The buyers RUN. Also many of these buyers WILL NOT be competing at FEI - they'll be lucky to hit 2nd level - so the demands physically on the horse are not the same.

I know Veterinarians who are stating this is a huge problem. But no one wants to be sued. Well try suing the Vet who "passed" the horse you bought in Europe if a problem shows up later!! You can't without huge financial costs for legal bills - so people don't.

aurum

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:16 AM

Elaine, but almost nobody uses the states stud stallions because there is only a certain amount of money they are allowed to give for the purchase of a stallion and for a low amount you cannot get a top stallion, that is why the top stallions are in private hands. Only Westfalen and Hanoverian states stud is different all other regions the better stallions are the private ones.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

ise@ssl

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:22 AM

Well over the next few years the playing field may level out by outside forces. Most of the European countries do have national health care systems and they also have zero population growth (some are actually below zero). If you look at all the financial projections - many of the industrialized countries (and Germany is in #1 position) are headed for a major financial crisis. They have a generation coming into retirement without a sufficient number of individuals in the group that will make up the working class to support the benefits that these retirees will be entitled to reveive. This makes our Social Security system look like a great investment in comparison.

Clearly all the forecasts show one side cannot support the other and many of those eligible for retirement have made no other provisions and are looking to government programs to sustain them. It's becoming an upside down pyramid.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>They took a blank slate (the US) and in the period from 1988 through1998 had four separate organizations/registries inspecting and branding Oldenburgs in this country (two of registries the court said were operating illegally). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WE ARE NOT GOING HERE ... and if I see anything more like this I'm going to lock this thread. No, I am not playing moderator, but I started this thread.

What started out as a nice discussion is turning into a cat fight. C'mon guys. Can we get back to the topic?

Please?

The adventure has begun...
KT

Cartier

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:27 AM

Gwen,
Could you step back and for one moment see just this one point. People here feel that German’s enjoy a level of government (societal) support which exceeds what we enjoy here in the US. Whether it’s a huge difference, or a minuscule difference (and even if no German breeders ever take advantage) you have more than our zero. And this in not just about state studs (which German breeders may or may not use). It’s cultural, society wide on various levels… there is more support for the equine industry in Europe than we enjoy here. I think that is and was the point… no more, no less.
Elaine

And… before this gets out of hand, please know, we love you to pieces, love your horses and I wish you and yours all the very best…
SO, send me the dark Sempatico pinto foal (I think it's second on your website) and I'll agree that GW Bush is running a stallion station with free semen for all http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And… before this gets out of hand, please know, we love you to pieces, love your horses and I wish you and yours all the very best… <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear hear. Gwen are you Aurum? If I do come to Germany in the winter, pleasepleaseplease will you let me look at your guys?

And no fair putting a CoTH Thread surcharge on any of their prices!

The adventure has begun...
KT

*SERAPH*

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:41 AM

ise@ssl--Loved the Ford analogy; summed up what I have been actively working on perfectly!

Cartier--Don't know anything about what went on registry-wise in the 80's-90's; but I do agree with you 100% about everything else. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oh, here is another site you can see an American Saddlebred stallion performing some dressage. Wanted to also say that what you see in my stallion and in the one on the site below is the NORM--NOT the EXCEPTION!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://groups.msn.com/BrummettdressageTraining

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Cartier

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> WE ARE NOT GOING HERE ... and if I see anything more like this I'm going to lock this thread. No, I am not playing moderator, but I started this thread.

What started out as a nice discussion is turning into a cat fight. C'mon guys. Can we get back to the topic? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oldenburgmom.
I find this very offensive. A thread, like a conversation, flows. What I wrote is true, it is a matter of public record. It is not for some third party to say we, as adults, can not discuss what is true. If people wish to civilly disagree, that is their right. I will not be intimidated into avoiding the truth because it threatens someone’s comfort level. We are civil adults and we can discuss facts which are matter of public record. Moreover, we can not control over how conversations on thread evolve. Look at CM Franks tread

And *SERAPH* for what it’s worth, I love that you and others continually point out the attributes of other fine breeds (like the American Saddlebred). Doing so adds to our knowledge and broadens our perspective.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 06:49 AM

I am NOT going there.

The adventure has begun...
KT

*SERAPH*

Jul. 24, 2003, 07:00 AM

Okay, okay...Oldenburg Mom is reasonably sensitive on the registry issue so true or not...

Let's get back to discussing how we can improve our market here!

Cartier--Thank you. I've had to develop nerves of steel to stand up to the snorts and ridicule sent my way at times for what I believe about the ASB. But I'm no stranger to thinking outside of the box and to the conflict and prejudices it can cause to flare up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Ashemont

Jul. 24, 2003, 07:09 AM

Having been in the middle of the Oldenburg mess I certainly don't want to revisit that scene... but Oldenburg Mom I think everyone has been quite civil on this thread and I've found it very interesting. I certainly don't hope you censor it.

Gwen, I had no idea the cash awards were so low. My friend who received the award and check for producing 3 Premium mares indicated it was a rather sizeable amount; he also intimated the same thing about the checks he regularly receives for a top jumper he produced. But as others have pointed out - it's still a lot more than the big zero we get over here.

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

Cartier

Jul. 24, 2003, 07:16 AM

We were looking at competition results the other day and were surprised to see QH’s placing higher than some of the WB’s. Not that it should be a competition between breeds (I think that for most, dressage should be a competition with ones’ self, to do the best you’re capable of doing). But I do think we tend to get rather narrowly focused, especially once we commit to certain lines in a breeding program. I think it’s a good idea to raise up our heads every once in a while and look around at what other breeds are doing in sport. For a long time it seemed that everything began and ended with the R and D lines (not that there’s anything wrong with the R and D lines).
And I didn’t mean to personally offend Oldenburg mom and I’ll take for granted she did not mean to personally offend me.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 24, 2003, 07:24 AM

Ashemont,

No, I don't want to censor. But *arguing* doesn't accomplish anything. We're adults here... we can discuss without alienating and offending. And I never forget that these forums can be read by anyone, in any country.

Lively discussion ... YES! Pointless bickering, no.

ANYWAY, Seraph was right. Let's get back to the discussion at hand ...

Seraph ...I'm going to look at your Brummettdressagetraining.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>QH’s placing higher than some of the WB’s<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cartier ... you must have been looking at snaps of my darling miniwarmbloodQH, RRB. Haha, just kidding. While all these WB monsters grow up, I am studying on a QH ... that I am just a real sucker for.

The adventure has begun...
KT

*SERAPH*

Jul. 24, 2003, 07:35 AM

Cartier--QH's placing higher than warmbloods in dressage???? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif If that's what you're saying, I'm amazed...and immensely encouraged! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But please, no one get me wrong, I think warmbloods are beautiful. I just think they are all beginning to look exactly alike (minus Trakehners)and wouldn't it be nice to see horses of different breeds and "looks" all competing at the top levels...horses of color, solid horses, Arabs, Traks, euro WB's, ASB's, Shagyas, Freisians, Andalusians, et. I mean, all of these types and breeds of horses have something exceptional about them. And I thought dressage was based on a horse's obedience to its rider, proper execution of the movements, and a certain, lively character. Am I wrong?

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Cartier

Jul. 24, 2003, 08:32 AM

There is a standing joke in our home that we need a search engine for our "Favorites." I can’t find the link to the results I referred to, but when "The Great One" comes home from work tonight he'll know where the link is and I’ll post it here. In the meantime, Dolly at Wellspring Farm has a QH stallion she’s competing, albeit at lower level.

siegi b.

Jul. 24, 2003, 08:50 AM

As much as my better sense tells me to stay away from this discussion at this point, I just HAVE to set a few things straight. I am German and have lived in the US for 20 years with fairly frequent trips back to Europe. And no, I don't import European horses to resell in this country... I breed here and sell here.
I'm amazed at how many people repeat this nonsense about the German government subsidizing their breeders. In the US (even as a small breeder) you can have a "business" breeding horses and as such get a fair amount of tax breaks in the form of write-offs. No such thing exists in Germany where this is considered a hobby. Looking at the piddly little year-end award payments you may be able to get over there, I believe that the tax advantages here far outweigh any such award.
In addition, let's not get ridiculous in our patriotism. Standardbreds, quarterhorses, etc. will not replace warmbloods in the FEI disciplines of dressage and jumping in the near future. Just tell our top riders to consider those breeds and watch their reaction. Let's not forget that a big part of the reason warmbloods have been so successful is the fact that the Europeans have kept extensive and meticulous records and are now at a point where they can look at marelines and know which ones will produce what characteristics and talents, and the same also holds true of stallions. Before we can assimilate the American horse breeds into meaningful breeding programs for the FEI disciplines, we will have to have a vehicle for keeping the same type of records in order not to re-invent the wheel over and over and over. In this fast-food society patience is something we need to learn to practice again, especially when it comes to breeding horses.

*SERAPH*

Jul. 24, 2003, 09:10 AM

"In addition, let's not get too ridiculous in our patriotism."

One can do no such thing. Another difference in the mindset between the Americans and the Europeans.

I never said that Standardbreds, Quarter Horses, et would replace warmbloods. I said that American breeders have created breeds that can simply not be rivaled in the rest of the world for the uses they were created for.

However, I did say that I believe that we have created a warmblood breed, in this country, that can rival the European warmbloods. And I also said that we should study sporthorse conformation, the mechanics behind it, European registries, and look at what we have here at home. Again, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif, please take a look at the Selle Francais history and tell me how that cannot be duplicated, using obvious breeds developed in this country and to create something maybe even better than the Selle Francais? That's why I was advocating thinking out-of-the-box. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I know that most of us here understand this concept.

One thing is true; this is a fast-food society and some things just take vision and time.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

aurum

Jul. 24, 2003, 09:46 AM

Siegi thank you for setting that straight about the financial help we get. I enjoy all of the ribbons, plaquettes and trophys my foals and horses have won and are still winning, but the 100 to 250 Euro at the end of the year for those that have won in competitions, is only "a drop on a hot stone".

In contrary Americans get tax relief as just told on another thread and I have the full description of that tax relief at hand. WE over here do NOT get such tremendous financial help, when I buy a stallion I have to pay every single Euro myself and do not get a tax relief! When I breed a stallion prospect and bring it along and he gets approved, I have paid every single Euro and not anyone else or got any support. The only thing this stallion then gets is nice writing in the magazines as lately had my Inspiration of whom the Trakehner Hefte wrote that he was the star of the approval and in the Reiter Revue they wrote that one can be sure that they will hear about that stallion in the future, not even an amount of money but that was not what counted to me. For me the applause and publicity for that stallion weighed 100 times more than a ridiculous amount of 50 or 100 Euro.

So it is not fair to say that we get financial support as that is a laugh considered the tax relief you over there get. This tax relief is really big figure considered that you can write off 50% of a stallion you buy or a broodmare you buy. German breeders cannot do such, their breeding is "hobby". The tax department hates horse breeders that try to get tax reductions and are very strict to not approve them. I guess I am one of the few that have been approved as agricultural business and horse breeder and I get tax relief after a fight of 20 years now, but 90% of the horse breeders in Germany don't and cannot profit of it. This tax relief for me is that I can write off the paid money against the earned money and on everything that remains above 8,000 Euro yearly is considered a profit and I have to pay 50% tax. So not a great thing but something.

And whoever wants to visit me and my beloved ones is welcome. I might charge "eye candy money" though.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Tiki

Jul. 24, 2003, 10:46 AM

Speaking of awards and incentives - - - Some people are pretty lucky, apparently, depending on what breed organization they belong to. I sure wish I could qualify for this!

From the Netherlands: Rousseau's breeder, Mr. Haak, was awarded 50,000 Euros for the KWPN Breeder Incentive Award due to Rousseau's resounding success throughout 2002.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

ise@ssl

Jul. 24, 2003, 10:53 AM

The recent changes to the IRS Code for Accelerated Depreciation on horses put into service in the US beginning with this year cannot be taken out of the context of the rest of the IRS standards.

Yes - this is a huge change in the depreciation that a BUSINESS can take for horses. Don't forget that part of it. Only business (be they LLC's, Subchapter S, regular corporations, partnerships or proprietorships) can take depreciation deductions for assets. Depreciation cannot be taken on the horses that are for sale - either in training or young stock.

Now remember even if you take this - it's a non-cash deduction. That means you reduce the amount of income you make that year so that the amount of TAX that you owe is either reduced or eliminated. BUT - you are also reducing the value of the asset on your balance sheet. So IF YOU SELL this animal in the future - for any amount greater than the balance on your books - that's ordinary (and taxable) income.

Now - the other matter involves the fact that many of us are under the IRS's gun to show profits. The horse industry has a much longer time line than someone growing - for example crops. They plant, they harvest - they sell. They can hold for awhile and store - but that requires a storage facility. And they are at the market's whim as far as pricing. AND they can't improve the product as they hold on to it - unless the pay for another stage of processing, such as refining.

Horse breeders often don't realize their profits until out into the future. And the current soft market is TOTALLY out of our control. Remember - horses are a discretionary spending item. People can live without them. We aren't selling fuel oil. So when money gets tight - our sales drop. (Economic term for that = elastic....our market reacts very directly to changes in the availability of discretionary cash).

So if you take the big write off and show huge losses for several years and really have a BOOK BASIS LOSS - expect the IRS to start breathing down your neck about profits on the business. And they want to see it in large amounts not just ...more than zero. Otherwise they can declare you a hobby. And you are in deep on this and the repurcussions tax wise - AND THAT IS ON A CASH BASIS.

The Code changes are an incentive to increase transactions. But it takes horses changing hands for CASH to make it worthwhile. Individuals with a lot of income should consider buying breeding stock - even if they have someone else manage the horses and take care of them - to get the big NON-CASH deductions. And then in a few years sell the stock to another investor and on and on. This is pretty much the engine that grew the TB and Standardbred industries years back - but it was repealed when people thought too many wealthy people were benefitting.

So don't take the code change on it's face - it's part of a much larger and more complex equation.

Ashemont

Jul. 24, 2003, 11:13 AM

And might I add that there are many, many breeders in this country who do not get the write-offs because they cannot qualify as a business. It just ain't that easy! And you really do need to remember that we sentimental Americans do not have the meat market to take our mistakes... so we have to breed very carefully and raise them with the greatest of care. And when one DOES get hurt or have severe problems we face the huge vet bills or resign ourselves to having a pasture ornament. I feel this one factor makes a HUGE difference in breeding in the US and Germany. But even if we had the market for rejects I think you'd still find many of us doing everything we could to give this animal we created a happy productive life.

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

aurum

Jul. 24, 2003, 11:27 AM

There is a huge meat market in the USA and Canada as far as I know of. We do not have a huge meat market in Germany since most of the lower priced horses are bought by trail or hobby riders. The horses for the meat market are the Freibergers, the over produced Haflingers in Italy/Tirol and horses from Eastern Europe that are sent to Italy as dog food or for making their salami and to France for their "steack de cheval" which French people like to eat almost raw.

Today I read an article about the horrible trips that North American horses take to go to slaughter houses. They drive 4,000 kms from Canada to Texas and from the USA to Canada just for money reasons. The German group of Animals Angels will try to stop that. If anyone is interested to read about them please check their website at http://www.animals-angels.de

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Ashemont

Jul. 24, 2003, 11:41 AM

No more pferdewurst??? We saw many signs for it in various butcher shops when we lived in Germany. Although I believe the biggest market was for the French, as you say. But what struck me was that all of the bigger breeders we met were very cavalier about where the rejects would go.... you just don't find that over here. Or at least I've not experienced it.

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

aurum

Jul. 24, 2003, 11:53 AM

No more Pferdewurst. Nobody wants to eat such. That was years ago I guess. The Rhinelander Sauerbraten was said to be of horse meat, and to be honest I would still never eat one in the Rhineland area as I would not be sure, but here where I live the Sauerbraten is made out of beef. Anyway who gives us the right to eat beef but think that slaughtering of horses is not right. Any animal has the same rights as our beloved horses. To not slaughter them just because we do love them so much is not fair against the others. If only I could be as strong as my sister... she stopped eating meat years ago. Now I am off for my bedroom.....

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

*SERAPH*

Jul. 24, 2003, 12:00 PM

I think we might be getting off the subject...but it's not for me to call it. I really think this involves American breeders and how to best advertise the horses they are breeding to the American market. As much as it makes foreign breeders uncomfortable for us to be discussing this, we have every right to try and take control back of our equine market.

So, meat preferences, cultural differences, and yes/no national subsidies aside, I'd really rather talk about where we are going with our breeding industry and how we can work together to form our own monopoly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Freehold

Jul. 24, 2003, 12:25 PM

One question I have. Is there really enough people out there in Europe to BUY the 10,000+/- babies (combining various registries) that are produced annually? I can't imagine being able to have that many horses squeezed into that small an area in the first place, let alone have them all find a decent market to be bought for riding/breeding use. Where are all these babies going?

www.freeholdequine.com (http://www.freeholdequine.com)

ise@ssl

Jul. 24, 2003, 12:51 PM

Aurum - regarding the horses shipped to Canada for slaughter for human consumption - well the meat doesn't come back here! It goes to France, Belgium, and Japan and some other countries through these countries.

I feel Freehold has a legitimate point. Somehow I think if the data were filtered down; i.e. foals produced yearly (according to all the Verbands), horses that die or are euthanised yearly and exportations - the # of horses that are supposedly being ABSORBED into Germany would make for a VERY crowded countryside.

danskbreeder

Jul. 24, 2003, 01:20 PM

i breed from imported elite mares with imported frozen semen. the only difference between my horses and those found in europe are:
1. I have combed the farms of Denmark and only purchased proven mares, graded into the top mare book with top bloodlines.
2. I have a strict worming, vaccinating, farrier care and handling program for evry mare and foal.

so, why not buy American?
erica
www.danishwarmblood.com (http://www.danishwarmblood.com)

Delyth

Jul. 24, 2003, 01:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Aurum - regarding the horses shipped to Canada for slaughter for human consumption - well the meat doesn't come back here! It goes to France, Belgium, and Japan and some other countries through these countries.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, horse meat generally doesn't end up on dinner tables in the US, but I sincerly doubt most of it ends up being shipped overseas for human consumption. Instead, it ends up in Alpo cans and we Americans feed it to Rover. Less restrictions on pet food.

And all of you sporthorse breeders from this side of the pond up in arms about the numbers of foals produced in Germany need to take a hard look at some of the statistics in this country. There were over 110,000 QH foals registered in 2002, with paints only slightly behind. Followed by TBs. That's not even counting the unregistered foals produced by backyard breeders, or premarin farms, etc etc. On the whole I'd be willing to wager there are a greater number of "backyard foal-mill" type breeders in THIS country - as we Americans hate being told by registries what to do and what not to breed http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Sorry for getting offtrack here, I realize this wasn't the point of the thread, but I am a bit disturbed by the European breeder bashing going on :P

ise@ssl

Jul. 24, 2003, 03:15 PM

Delyth I would really like to know where you got the information that horses slaughtered go for dog food - it's my understanding that isn't true. They do NOT purchase meat from the slaughterhouses in Canada or USA. If you have other sources to the contrary I'd love to know them.

mbp

Jul. 24, 2003, 03:57 PM

It is my understanding that pet food sourcing for horse meat is only from rendering plants, not horse slaughter facilities.

Rendering plants pick up already dead animals (usually the owner is charged a fee for the carcass removal) and can only transport dead animals. Don't know exactly how this got here, but there is a slaughter thread in Off Course stemming from the Practical Horseman article.

siegi b.

Jul. 24, 2003, 04:08 PM

To add to Delyth's post.... Count the number of horse rescue organizations in the United States and then tell me we're doing such a good job with our "rejects". That's one thing you won't find in Germany or Holland - animal abuse and starvation. Their laws are much stricter about this and they do enforce them. I strongly believe that it's more humane to destroy/kill/put down an animal than it is to subject it to years of neglect.
So make sure you're not sitting in a glass house then you're hurling those rocks......

Cartier

Jul. 24, 2003, 04:41 PM

Siege, with all due respect, you and others have completely missed the point of the original comment and are dragging this thread way off topic into an animal rights argument.

The original point was that there is a different “ethic” in Europe vs. the US about what to do with the products of our Warmblood breeding which don’t work. Your response is that the very worst of American breeders (of god only knows what breeds) are doing what Warmblood Breeders in Germany are doing routinely. However, the point is that Warmblood breeders in this country are not raising 100 of foals to cull through for the few dozen superior ones.

We see video of big breeding farms in Germany with hundreds of foals crammed in to large stalls, which are cleaned once every few months, with little turn out etc. and from these large groups the crème de la crème is selected. And presumably the foals which do not measure up are sold (for meat or other purposes). NO one is saying that it is a bad thing… it is a different ethic.

Whether these differences are ultimately good or bad is a value judgment based on cultural biases and norms. I am not making a judgment.

Possibly if German WB breeders felt the commitment to each and every foal they produce that American WB breeder’s feel, then German breeders too would make slower progress because they would be burdened with addressing the individual needs of every single horse they produce. Sending horses to slaughter is simply not accepted by WARMBLOOD BREEDERS in American as a viable way to cull foal crops or advance breeding goals.

mbp

Jul. 24, 2003, 04:52 PM

Going back to the original topic - #s and $ are reasons that buyers go to Europe. Just like buyers for Quarter Horses would come here to the states.

Here is something else I personally think - although it may not be correct and it will probably not be popular. I think European breeders are more objective in evaluating what their foals are worth. If they get a less than wonderful foal, the price it accordingly. They don't expect to make money on them all. They know they won't make money on some. Maybe most. Often, they have other farming interests too and are not stand alone horse interests except the bigger studs.

They have systems in place, have regionalized their breeding and marketing efforts resulting in high profile auctions, high profile performance results, they have coordinated marketing contacts throughout their regions, and they don't get snitty if someone doesn't buy their perfect wonderful foal that they are showing - they figure they may sell the person another one later, or may sell to a friend of the person, etc. (Really - I am surprised at how many breeders here get "hurt" if the first looker at their foal doesn't take it) Europeans often make it a pleasant experience to look for a horse there, even if you don't buy from them.

They do have lower costs for many things - although I would have to think that many of our breeders, albeit not on the coasts, have lower land costs. They have a more sale friendly vetting process. They get to see the stallions up close and personal and see a lot of get of the stallions and that makes their stallion selection more informed. They keep better records, again making the selection more informed. They start horses better and more economically. They just do a lot of things right. All of the foregoing are generalizations - but they have some strong validity.

I do think overseas breeders may benefit from state studs and public educational funding that results in, for example, lower vet cots, but I don't think we can lay their successes to just that, because they do a lot of other things right. We, also have some benefits and we are good at mobilizing for a market. Part of our problem here has been generating the correct information for our market decisions. We're getting better and better at this.

Another problem that I can't believe has not been addressed.

Accents. Sure, we have deep Southern drawls and Bronx stringphrases, but to really sell horses, I think we need to cultivate a good accent. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Till then, I'll just sneak in a "gut" now and then for effect.

mbp

Jul. 24, 2003, 04:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Sending horses to slaughter is simply not accepted by WARMBLOOD BREEDERS in American as a viable way to cull foal crops <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a little confused here. I don't know what happens in Germany or Europe in general (except France - and I do know the TX slaughter plants are Belgian owned) but I read Aurum's post to indicate that there is not a horse meat market there - I took that to mean there is little or no slaughter industry there. Is that not correct? Or are you talking about horses being put down in general (not the meat market)?

I had read several years back that Dutch farmers often culled by selling to slaughter, but that was a long time ago and I have no idea if it is true - but I took Aurum's posts to indicate that there is not a horsemeat industry in Germany.

I can think of irresponsible breeders in almost every breed/registry, including the US warmblood industry. I don't think they all, by virtue of being US warmblood breeders, carefully worry over the placement of every horse. I'd like to hope so though.

Alagirl

Jul. 24, 2003, 05:32 PM

There is a small market for horsemeat in Germany, probably gained a wee bit, considering all the scandals about beef and pork, but it's still minimal.

But you are hardly ever more than an hour away from a horse butcher (sounds gross, I know).

So you can take your horse yourself and supervise. Family friends did that with their daughters old Dressage horse (he has arthitic, and twenty years ago, well, no Legend or Adequan...) it was very uneventfull.

Matter of fact the horsemeat guy *back home* is also the guy you want at hand if a horse has a mortal injury, plus he is an active harness racer...

Alagirl

Jul. 24, 2003, 07:25 PM

Come to think of it, it's kind of funny y'all bring the Selle Francaise into the discussion.

Anybody know the origin of the breed?

(Buler...)

Per stroke of the pen the French (agriculture department I would think) decided to unite all breeds under the catch all.

This included the Barb horses as well as Anglo Arabs, and whatever else Warmbloody breed ran around.

As far as my research showes, it did not go off without a hitch. It seems like the geographic conditions where left out in the planning.

Rossiere al Salines (sp?) in Lorraine was destined to breed for a type that does not thrive there - the light riding type Anglo-Arab similar to the ones breed in nearby Zweibruecken (know known as RPS) suited the region to a T - no wonder, it's only a hop,skip and a jump appart, but those where bred someplace else...

Though you'd like to know...

*SERAPH*

Jul. 24, 2003, 07:33 PM

Alagirl--You can't mean there are unknowns in the European breeding systems, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifGASP http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif can you????

No way! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Alagirl

Jul. 24, 2003, 07:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
Alagirl--You can't mean there are unknowns in the European breeding systems, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifGASP http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif can you????

No way! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO......

only the French http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif and they have long since upgraded - Windows XP and a Pentium IV http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
and AOL 0.08... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

When ever they switched systems, they must have figured, a horse is a horse, of course, of course, but the vast differences in the reginal settings are what developes a type of horse.

Of course these days you can add anything to the feed...

*SERAPH*

Jul. 24, 2003, 08:01 PM

Ok, sounds like a plan...but how about all those European registries that keeps everything so well-documented??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Are you saying that it ain't so? But warmblood, at least Euro WB is SO adamant about their "exclusive" documentation for, I don't know, 200 years! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

One has to say, at least with my mischievious nature, "EAT CROW"!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifHave I ever commented on the fact that I LOVE America and I LOVE being American?

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

aurum

Jul. 24, 2003, 09:44 PM

Even if that has nothing to do with that thread, but someone brought it up and so I want to clear that!

mbp - what I wrote is true!

Cartier/Elaine if you truly believe what you are saying above, then you must have your ears shut and have very dark sun glasses on your eyes. You are very patriotic and I accept that, but it cannot go that far to close the eyes in front of the truth about slaughtering in North America!

We do not have horse butchers as said someone other, we do have butchers in general and if a horse needs to be slaughtered it is brought to the butcher the closest and not driven hundereds or thousands of kilometers. The horses in Germany are slaughtered when they are old or sick and not for culling! And we do not eat that meat, it is going to Italy or France and for dog food and YES the American slaughtered horses are also serving for dog food. I do not understand why Americans do not want to admit the truth.

And I do not like that generalization about having youngsters in hundereds together in a crowd. I have yet to see that and I can only think of ONE single person that has them like that and is breeding that many each year! My youngsters also live together and they are the most socialized horses later! It is the healthiest way of raising horses and not to put them into a pink glass house to only make them rotten. And I love my horses and they love me. When I come out and they hear my voice they are responding and coming quickly.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Cartier

Jul. 25, 2003, 01:51 AM

Gwen,
We must be having a HUGE translation problem… I am not saying that NO horses are slaughtered in America, and I am not going to comment on whether slaughter of ANY animal for meat is good, bad or indifferent (because that is an animal rights activist theme and it would be off topic). On this thread (except for the excellent contributions of *SERAPH*), we are speaking of what Warmblood breeders do… of the general practices of Warmblood breeders in Europe vs. America and how these practices impact the marketing of warmbloods.
Re your quote<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And I do not like that generalization about having youngsters in hundereds together in a crowd. I have yet to see that and I can only think of ONE single person that has them like that and is breeding that many each year <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don’t really know how to say this nicely without sounding confrontational, but when you say you know of only ONE breeder who raises foals in large foal lots, I have to wonder if you are getting out often enough.

We see credible evidence that foals are indeed raised that way in Europe by prominent Warmblood breeders. One example: We have a promotional video of Hengststation Bockmann which clearly shows the lots of foals. The narrator describes how Bockmann leases about 300 mares from small farmers all over Germany and collects the foals in the fall (in addition to his own foals) to raise them all together in the lot, with virtually no turn out, where the stalls are not cleaned (but rather, new straw is continually added over old bedding), and from these foals he culls down to the best dozen or so. (The video comments that this is how foals are raised in Germany and extols the virtues of raising foals this way because they are well socialized etc.) BTW, it was apparent from the video that some foals were nice and some were quite average.

Now I am NOT saying that it is necessarily good or bad to raise foals in huge numbers like this… what I am saying is that if a breeder, ANY breeder has 100’s of Warmblood foals to choose from, the chances of getting outstanding quality greatly increases. That is simply a numerical fact. If I had the over 300 foals to choose from every year I would be able to make HUGE advances in my breeding program in a very short time. And that would not make me a better breeder...

For whatever reason, American Warmblood breeders do not produce foals crops of 300 or more and we do not cull our foals crops the way German breeders do. I am not making a value judgment here, I am making an observation about different approaches to breeding.

[This message was edited by Cartier on Jul. 25, 2003 at 05:59 AM.]

aurum

Jul. 25, 2003, 02:26 AM

Elaine, sorry if I misunderstood something. It is correct sometimes it is difficult for me to understand what Americans mean and often I am confused - English to German is not that easy apparently.

As for the breeder with the crowded foal herd, the only one that I know of and who is known for raising foals like that is PS. They are very crowded but they get all their feed and none has deficits. But you are right they are terribly crowded. But this is not usual in Germany (you must have gotten a wrong picture there) and it is the first time I hear that Boeckmann does the same thing. But I also want to point out that culling in Germany does not mean that the foals get slaughtered, they are sold cheap to others, not slaughtered.

I just got off the phone with somebody that gave me correct information about the produce of foals in Germany and here are the figures of last year:

30,000 registered WB foals in total
1,500 registered Draft foals
12,000 registered Pony foals
there are a lot of unregistered foals by backyard breeders and those might end as you say as almost nobody buys unpapered crosses in Germany.

Every registered horse in Germany can be tracked down and so the breed associations would know about them slaughtered as the papers have to be given back when a horse dies.

But with the registered foals, what is not top quality is not culled it is sold cheap. Look I am very happy with the quality of my foals, nevertheless I sell those that are not colored, for a much cheaper price. In fact I sold once 4 uncolored fillies in a package price for a laugh and three years later two of them colored out. But that can only happen with the spotted gene, not the tobianos.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Cartier

Jul. 25, 2003, 02:56 AM

Gwen,
You are still NOT getting my point… so one last time… I am not saying that all the culled foals are slaughtered… they are culled (culled does not necessarily mean slaughtered). And (for the most part) it would be no better or worse for the horse to go for slaughter in the US or in Europe.. the end result is still the same… the animal is dead… but that is NOT the point I’m trying to make.

From my perspective, the point which is most relevant to this topic is about NUMBERS of foals produced in a given year and how that impacts the advances a breeder is able to make in a given period of time (which of course impacts the market place). Higher numbers of foals results in more choices for the breeder and the greatly increased likelihood of producing both ends of the spectrum which includes the truly spectacular foal. So, if you live in a society which routinely produces much greater numbers of WB foals, you have a much greater chance of producing the very high quality we are all seeking.
Elaine

carolin

Jul. 25, 2003, 03:21 AM

Got to say something about this notion that stalls aren't clean because you only 'empty' them every few months. We call that matress bedding. If you've been in German barns, you've seen that stalls are much deeper than ones here. You create a matress over some months by layering more straw on top of the used bedding on a daily basis. In cold winters, this creates warmth and makes the barn less cold. Also, the bedding is softer to lie on/stand on than the hard floor.

In my youth I've mucked out stalls like that by hand and with a tractor (if you could drive into the barn/stalls). Loads of fun... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cartier

Jul. 25, 2003, 03:29 AM

Carolin,
Thanks for sharing that info and just for clarification, I hope you read and understood that I was NOT saying that raising foals in large lots is necessarily bad or wrong (I was specifically making no value judgment what-so-ever about it), and I understand about the advantages of bedding that way… and all… but that is a topic which I felt would be best addressed on the Horse Care forum…

Sporthorse South

Jul. 25, 2003, 03:46 AM

I've been sitting back watching the twists and turns this thread has taken, but I want to add one observation. As Gwen and others have pointed out, not all German breeders keep "hundreds" of foals together. I have been to Germany three times in the past 7 months (also went two years ago), and have visited quite a few large and small operations, but I have yet to see a place where "hundreds" of foals are kept together in the same lot. I HAVE seen many places with groups of 3-12 foals together, separated by age and sex (weanling colts, weanling fillies, yearling colts, yearling fillies, etc.). These youngsters are weaned together in very large stalls, which is usually far less stressful for them than isolating them in a stall by themselves. Because they have to eat together, sleep together, and go out together, they learn to get along. Although the dominant ones do get to the front first for feeding, etc., at every farm I visited, the owner / manager kept a watchful eye on the youngsters and made sure that each one got enough to eat, and would reshuffle the groups if necessary. I only saw one operation where I thought the foals looked a bit "scruffy", but it was the middle of the winter and when I went back a few months later, the same foals all looked great - sleek and sassy and glowing with good health.

Another comment - another advantage to keeping large numbers of foals is that it really helps the breeder figure out "real quick" how various stallions are producing. For instance, if you only have 1 or 2 Relevant foals to look at, how the heck can you draw any conclusions about what mares he works best with? On the other hand, if you have a few dozen to look at, it becomes a lot easier to determine the potency of the stallion for different traits.

Again, to get back to the original question posed by Oldenburg Mom - the NUMBERS are what draws so many buyers to Europe. It's a lot easier to make an informed buying decision when you have 20 - 30 "Relevant" foals to choose from instead of just a few (using Relevant as an example, since that is a name I figure that most people on this thread will recognize).

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 25, 2003, 04:18 AM

Wow! Go home, take a riding lesson (which, by the way was just the greatest) come back and find *my thread* has been hijacked.

Well, go figgure. *sigh* Whatever...

Sporthorse South ... since you were the motivation for me starting this thread in the first place, your quote is appropriate:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Again, to get back to the original question posed by Oldenburg Mom - the NUMBERS are what draws so many buyers to Europe. It's a lot easier to make an informed buying decision when you have 20 - 30 "Relevant" foals to choose from instead of just a few (using Relevant as an example, since that is a name I figure that most people on this thread will recognize). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right. And again, I never had the slightest idea these numbers were so high! Blew me away.

And let me make something perfectly clear here as well: now that I'm looking for next year, I'm looking here FIRST. I'm going to bust my butt to try and buy American first. What am I looking for?

Simple: outstanding young (weanling/yearling) quality.

So, all you breeders out there. Get those cameras going ... start snapping and placing on your websites. Eeeeeehaaaaa. What a ride this is gonna be!

The adventure has begun...
KT

Twinkletozzz

Jul. 25, 2003, 04:30 AM

I don't know all the reasons why people buy abroad, but I have a few ideas why people DON'T buy abroad!
Like me, I think most buyers are personally knowledgeable OR they have buying assistance in the form of trainer or broker. Second, they have figured out that one can easily and ecnomically fly into a highly horsey area in this country, say Sacrmanto - just for the sake of discussion (there are many more areas just like this one) - and in that geographic area alone between show barns and private breeding facilities on any given 2-day period, one can easily, VERY easily, see more than 100 horses for sale. Been there, done that. The buyers don't have to be concerned with expense of importation, risks of importation, etc., and you have supported the breeding industry in this country. A winning proposition all the way around as far as I can tell.

Twinkletozzz

Jul. 25, 2003, 04:34 AM

Oldenburg Mom, no more riding lessons for you then! OK, I'll ask. What are you looking for. Correct, we know, lovely, good mind, great temperament, but what do you want this youngster to do: dressage, jumping, hunter? My camera's primed and ready to go. :-)

Tiki

Jul. 25, 2003, 05:09 AM

Another comment on European stalls. When I was at riding school in England, they kept what they called 'deep litter stalls' in the winter. You would go in every day and pick up only the droppings and then put fresh bedding down on top. Anaerobic fermentation takes place underneath the top layer and essentially composts the base of the bedding. There is a fair amount of heat produced and the top layer is always dry. The first time I saw these stalls and was taught how to keep them I was a little surprised. One day we had a lecture about something IN a stall. All the other students sat down in the stall for the lecture. I sat down too, after them. The stall base was extremely comfortable and soft, without being spongy, and it was warm and very dry. They have a lot of shedrow barns there which are completely open at the top, with an overhand. The horses can lie down out of the wind and be completely warm and comfortable - with no respiratory problems from being closed in. They are WONDERFUL stalls for winter bedding. They ARE a bit of work to clean out in the spring! But you've got really nice, already composted manure. They did the same thing at the stable I kept my horse at and rode at in Germany. In spring they'd come in with a backhoe and strip the stalls. I actually do basically the same thing here in the States now with my run-in shed. The horses have a very nice warm place to lie down in the winter and the wind usually only hits the back of the shed. At any rate, the 'floor' is warm and dry.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 25, 2003, 05:36 AM

Twinkletozzz...

I loff Oldenburgs, so I'm looking there.

Don't care if it's a filly or a colt. If it's a colt it would probably have to be a stallion prospect.

Don't care about the discipline, but as my partner is a h/j -- and BabyDumpling is a dressage prospect -- I'd like to try h/j lines.

The key here is exceptional.

But that's not what this thread is about... me looking for a baby. What it has now developped into is how the American breeder can compete with Europe.

I think the answer is - let them mass produce. We'll take the best and breed to the best.

And just a word on all the national chest-thumping going on here: what do you all expect? Guess what. I'm American. I think this is the greatest country on earth and we do things the right way. Aurum is German. Guess what she thinks? She thinks that Germany is the best country on the planet and they way they do things is right.

Whaddya expect folks? Let's all live and let live ... take the best each has to offer ... and if you can't say anything nice, shut the f*** up. (BTW, that doesn't mean you can't disagree ... just do it nicely!)

The adventure has begun...
KT

*SERAPH*

Jul. 25, 2003, 06:00 AM

Twinkletozzz--I understand what you mean...I've never had a problem knowing where to go to buy quality horses; and being able to look at a number of them. Of course I also haven't been trying to aquire "x" Euro WB bloodline,et.

Cartier--Thank you for the nice compliment! I try to sound like I know what I'm talking about! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif About the numbers produced over there; again, the only way I see we can combat that is to form regional co-ops. And I still feel that it would move our market light years ahead if the money was put out to create regional facilities where trainers/students and instructors were hired to train horses the breeders sent to them. Makes sense to me. But the $1,000,000 dollar question is, where would/could the money come from? Could the USAEquestrian Fed. lobby congress, like the beef industry, or the agricultural, or poultry industries and convince the government that we should do this/ need to do this for our equine market. I know in SC alone our equine industry, on the low end is a 1.2 billion dollar a year industry. Seems like more than chump change to me. I think it would also serve to stablelize the market within the industry as well...certainly it should modernize it. Maybe we could achieve this through gov. grants, private donations (through fundraisers and what-not), an appropriate annual breeder fee, maybe a small additional charge at shows, et. Ideas? Anyone?

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

ise@ssl

Jul. 25, 2003, 07:02 AM

Horses are the 2nd biggest agricultural industry in the state of NJ. And with grain crops becoming unprofitable - almost all the farms are growing hay - to sell to the horse farms.

It's interesting to see all the SUBSIDIES that still exist in the agricultural world for crops that cannot be grown in the US for less than foreign countries. Also there is still subsidy for tobacco growing?? Unbelievable. But try to get subsidy for the horse industry and everyone waves it off - "that's for people with a lot of money".

The Horse Council has solid data on how much revenue the Horse industry generates - but we are still treated like some red-headed step-child. When a farmer loses crops to a flood or some other pest or whatever - all kinds of programs and emergency aide come forth. Why isn't it the same for the horse business?

*SERAPH*

Jul. 25, 2003, 07:13 AM

ise@ssl--

So, we need lobbyists like every other business has that goes to Washington and brings our industry to the attention of congress. Can we take this before the USAEquestrian Fed as well as whomever else and do this? What about the agricultural dpmt. and its lobbyists????

There's got to be a way to do this... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

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Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

ise@ssl

Jul. 25, 2003, 07:36 AM

Yes! Also make sure you know your elected officials and that THEY KNOW the financial #'s behind the horse industry. The Horse Council should be pushing these issues for us in WASH DC. Everyone else feeds at the trough - why not the horse business??

*SERAPH*

Jul. 25, 2003, 08:24 AM

So how can we unite together, on a mational level and start getting something done? One voice often isn't heard, but many voices can be very loud indeed! And you're right, every other industry gets subsidies and grants, et, et...time to wake our gov. up!

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

mbp

Jul. 25, 2003, 09:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Also there is still subsidy for tobacco growing?? Unbelievable<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A smidge off topic I know - but can you believe that?

SUrely there is a better use of subsidies.

Cartier

Jul. 25, 2003, 10:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also there is still subsidy for tobacco growing?? Unbelievable
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A smidge off topic I know - but can you believe that?

SUrely there is a better use of subsidies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Might be more than a "smidge" (unless your dictionary is different than mine) but… consider for a moment… tobacco is a product which, when used as intended, will kill you… and we still subsidize the crop… and pay the millions in health care costs directly linked to the use of tobacco products … truly amazing waste of our money…

mbp

Jul. 25, 2003, 10:16 AM

Seraph (or others) one way to act on a national level would be through our NGB. As USAEq is positioning to become USEF with a long list of changes, new committees, new bylaws, new players, etc. - it is worthwhile taking some time to see how breeders will fit in to the new structure. There are a few threads in Off Course that are good starting points to get a feel for the new structure.

IMO, acting first on a regional basis and then getting a national front for the coordinated efforts of active regional units is one of the most effective approaches.

Kareen

Jul. 25, 2003, 11:40 AM

I'm not going to repeat all of what Aurum and others said but here's some simple facts that should help cleaning up some big misunderstandings . I can only come up with info from Germany because I'm based there and like to stay with what I know about.

*The average Hanoverian breeder owns less than 2 mares. Thus large rearing facilities such as Böckmann or Schockemöhle are exceptions rather than the rule and I'm glad it is like that.

*Paul Schockemöhle isn't particularly successful at breeding. In fact there are small family run breeding operations on both sides of the pond who have been much more successful if you look at it by ratio (number of foals produced vs. record of successful offspring). I don't say PS doesn't know a good horse he sure does otherwise he couldn't be so successful at what he does which is mainly marketing. He is an excellent salesman and I believe not very attached to the horses he owns and that's how he is economically successful.

*Little me owns 7 broodmares today and has overtaken the breeding from her dad. Together we've been breeding for approx. 35 years and never have we 'disposed of our rejects' as was suggested by a number of posters to be a common practice in Germany. As a rule those who don't sell as weanlings usually get sold after they've been started, and yes we do this ourselves. We also don't entertain staff for grooming or stall mucking or hire handlers or braiders for mareshows. We also don't hesitate to sell the ones that are less than what we strive for and sometimes even the ones we think are great at a considerable loss if the market requires it.
One reason horse keeping in Germany is less expensive is because it is not necessarily considered an elitist thing, particularly the breeding part is in fact carrying a rather blue collar image and ruled by farming people like us.

*On the other hand: Yes we do deworm our horses and believe it or not we follow a regular vaccination schedule that is about the same pursued in North America (except things like EPM or west nile etc.) This I can say for sure as it concerns our own horses but there must be some more breeders out there who are following the same concept because otherwise how could I make a living as a practical vet if it was just survival of the fittest? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

*The breeder's award in Germany is 10% of a horse's 1st to 4th ranks in A-level or higher tests if held inside the country. Now given the fact only about 10% of all WB's sold sell to showing homes here that is quite low an income plus if you add all the ones who sell to foreign countries and don't pay you a single cent in awards - I wouldn't really want to rely on those funds to live on hehe.

I subscribe Cartier's point of view meaning there is more mental and social support for the equine industry as a whole and I can see horse enthusiasts getting frustrated over being considered a marginal group and holding time and work consuming shows with almost zero outside attention let alone a non-horsey audience.
Thinking TV coverage of even regional events, sponsorship for our top competing leagues I guess we are very lucky here in Europe (although the sponsorships turn me off at times because it has come to a point where shows look rather like car promotion or prêt a porter-shows than actual equestrian events).

And let me say this one last thing: The American approach of patriotism will always remain a riddle to me. I'd like to respect Oldenburg Mom's will not to go this way and thus won't go deep into details but must say I don't understand the way of thinking nationality alone makes one superior or minor to anyone else. This would seem to me like the most extreme form of generalization and I just can't see how this could be a good thing. If being a patriot means to demonstrate the opinion of feeling superior of any other nation I think I want nothing to do with it. I have a particular problem to understand how all this can be contributive to the global community of horse breeders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Think of how huge America is both geographically and economically as well as military and then relate to the size and economic or military strength of most other nations. You might get a whole new meaning to the word threatening if you try to look at it from an international point of view. I will leave it here as the topic has gone way off base http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Froh zu sein bedarf es wenig...

http://www.germanhorseconnection.com

danskbreeder

Jul. 25, 2003, 11:44 AM

maybe we warmblood breeders should start a marketing and sales consortium. one problem i can certainly foresee is this question of what constitutes a warmblood. Flame suit on!! being part of a long established warmblood registry, i certainly have an opinon about that. but anyway what about a warmblood association that's not a rigistering entity but is a sales and marketing entity?
erica
www.danishwarmblood.com (http://www.danishwarmblood.com)

danskbreeder

Jul. 25, 2003, 11:48 AM

i should have said we American breeders.
erica
www.danishwarmblood.com (http://www.danishwarmblood.com)

Cartier

Jul. 25, 2003, 01:14 PM

Kareen touched on something which I think we’re overlooking… media coverage of equine events. My husband and I desperately search for coverage of any equine event, and what we find is very inconsistent in terms of the quality of coverage. With the exception of the Triple Crown races and the Breeders Cup, very few equine events are covered live. Most everything else that is covered (e.g., The Spruce Meadows Diary or whatever it was called) is delayed weeks/months/even years and sometimes edited to the point of distraction.

Now, I realize that it's difficult to cover some equine competitions live (e.g., eventing, without using video tape would be impossible because it takes too long for the event itself, and frankly, watching dressage can, at times, be like watching paint dry… but show jumping is thrilling to watch and it would be nice to at least see live coverage of it.

I really think this all boils down to how its packaged, and even if it wasn't perfect at first, I think one could build audience interest over time. Consider that the Westminster K.C. telecast (and other dog shows) are huge ratings hits for cable and have generated huge interest in AKC events and dog ownership in general… yet they started off with rather clumsy production values and some well remember guffaws from the hosts etc. Still, if we could get the equine versions of Chet Collier and David Frye interested in promoting horse shows we might, over time, generate a much broader market for all equine products.

I realize I’ve said this before, but what the heck, I think it’s in every breeder’s interest to be inclusive rather than exclusive. We need to spread the news that horses are a joy to own on ANY level, even if they aren’t FEI level competitors. And, I think Martin Bird Productions has a real great approach to covering the trickier disciplines like eventing and dressage. Their format would be easy to dupliate and may be very marketable to cable audiences.

Home Again Farm

Jul. 25, 2003, 02:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If being a patriot means to demonstrate the opinion of feeling superior of any other nation I think I want nothing to do with it. I have a particular problem to understand how all this can be contributive to the global community of horse breeders <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kareen,

I too am put off by too much flag waving. I am an American who wishes that our powers that be were a bit less sure that they know what is right for the entire world.

As I stated about 6 pages ago, I am grateful to the German Hanoverian and Oldenburg breeders who have been so kind and generous with information and advice. I have learned so much from them.

I hope that we can keep this conversation on the positive side, without any more feelings of "us against them," which I regard as thoroughly counter productive.

Mary Lou

http://www.homeagainfarm.com

Sporthorse South

Jul. 25, 2003, 03:53 PM

I completely agree with Kareen and Home Again. Although I am very proud to be an American (was raised in a family with a long and unbroken history of military service to the U.S. going back at least 5 generations), I too get a bit uneasy about all the chest-thumping and flag-waving by people who say "we are Americans, so of course we do it better." Like it or not, this is a global economy now, and if U.S. manufacturers, farmers, breeders, etc., don't or won't turn out a product that is a better value than that produced in another part of the world, then they will unfortunately have to watch the customer base shop elsewhere.

Again, I am not saying that the U.S. is not breeding good quality horses, but the fact is that we are not yet doing it in sufficient percentages to keep American buyers from looking overseas. When I don't have to make 30 phone calls, review 12 videos, then fly around the country to several different states to find ONE prospect for myself or a client, then I'll be happy to shop exclusively at home. Until then, I'll continue to look in Europe where I can usually find that one particular prospect by making only 2-3 phone calls and seeing 20 or more potentials with one 2-3 day trip. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

alexandra

Jul. 25, 2003, 09:48 PM

When starting reading this thread, I had lots and lots of thought running through my mind and already posted two or three things even before reading every post until the end. Than I arrived at Kareen's post and hey I had to delete all I wrote. She just put it in the right words !

I know from a breeders meeting that 65% of the registered breeders with the Hannoverian Verband own/breed 1 mare. Another 20% 2 mares and only 5% of the breeders own more than 6 mares. So Kareen is in regards of the Verband already one of the bigger breeders! I remember the numbers, because I was so impressed by this statistical distribution/allocation (do not find the exact translation for the word I am looking for). I thought that the average Hanno breeder would have 3 or 4 mares until I heard these figures.
I personally would think of two breeders in a 100 and above foals category: one is Paul Schockemöhle and the other Heinrich Ramsbrock. I have never heard of Böckmann's having so many foals but it is understandable: a lot of stallion owners over here help their breeders to sell. Either buying the good ones themselves (to rear them and try to promote them as 2,5 yo at the licensing to help promote the stallion) or by helping to sell. Since Böckmann's have their stallions the number 100 foals makes sense, But I would not think that they keep them all in one stall and won't clean and feed them ...

Cartier are there never any coverages of a Grand Prix on TV ?
Those are e.g the shows I remember seeing on TV during the last year:
Aachen, Bremen, Hannover, Gera, Berlin, Neumünster, Kiel, Derby at Hamburg, Wiesbaden, München (Munic) Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Dortmund, Lingen (dressage fetival !!!). The broadcast is often done by regional TV stations, but some of them you can see all over Germany.
Mostly they show the Grand Prix jumping class, the qualification for it. Sometimes other classes aswell. And sometimes the dressage classes, too.
But were do you see the relation that we have broadcast of these horse shows on TV to the question Why are americans buying in Europe ?

One factor was not mentioned I think. The prestige factor:
It is like buying Tommy Hilfinger clothes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif "I bought an imported horse". You american breeders will never be able to beat that point http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And another thing is different, even though I do not know whether it lets americans buy over here. maybe just not:
Germans very very often do not judge a horse because of the show results of breed shows. Breeders very often don't even care about SPS or 1A prizes. This makes a lot of people breed with mares that are in lots of american eyes inferior (if they are in addition of non-fashionable bloodlines, even more unvaluable).
So lots of people over here breed with mares you would not breed with. And this gives quite often very good results. Using a SPS and cross her with a stallion performance test winner is not breeding, but increasing the number of horses (of the better horses I have to admit, but this will mostly not lead the new stallion performance test winner). The best breeding results come from well thought crosses no matter mare marks or stallion marks.
I have seen quite a lot of SPS with great mare performance test and inspection of above 8 for which I would not have paid a cent, but americans paid 30.000 DM and now are wondering why this super mare gives them only crabby foals... (well because she is crabby).
I have to admit that it is much easier to sell a non SPS mare of foal out of a non SPS mare to a German than to an american !!!

But I think the most important factor why people are coming over is still the price which is hard for you to compete (because people do very often not expect to make money, but downsize their amount of horses, because prices of certain things seem lower and not because of support through the government) and the reason to be able to see 20 - 40 horses or more if going to an auction during 3-4 days. (Saves lots of travelling costs and also lots of time, therefore money).

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

Cartier

Jul. 26, 2003, 03:21 AM

Alexandra,
Regarding your quote:
[QUOTE]But I would not think that they keep them all in one stall and won't clean and feed them ... [/QUOTE

If you take the conversation from what has actually been said to some absurd exaggeration… it is impossible for the conversation to go forward. NO ONE said the horses raised in these large lots are not fed. No one said or implied that! NO one! Please, DO NOT inflame this conversation by exaggerating what was said.

And, it’s already now been conceded that several large, prominent German breeders do, in fact, raise foals in large groups in large lots, where the stalls are not cleaned but once in a great while. It’s even been explained that there are advantages to this way of bedding stalls. The first response to the claim that foals were raised this way was along the lines of, “Oh no, this never happens in Germany.” Then it was conceded that it may happen in one instance, maybe years ago. Now you all concede there are three or four breeders raising foals this way. Frankly, I think the numbers are higher…and if someone cared to push the point and name more names you would conceded there are more European breeders raising foals this way. It’s like pulling teeth sometimes to get even a tiny concession about a rather obvious fact. But the original point was that American breeders don’t have the luxury of breeding in such huge numbers and raising foals in such a convenient and inexpensive manner. And it is these numbers which give you a large advantage in advancing your breeding goals.

There are some posters who’ve expressed disapproval for some other poster’s expressions of American patriotism. I ask you all to consider that what you’ve read on this thread is but a tiny fraction of the “chest thumping” we’ve heard from Foreign breeders for years. IF you find it obnoxious, believe me, I’ve had the same feeling over the years.

AS for T.V coverage, the fact that you have more coverage of equine events is an example of the level of society-wide endorsement of equines you enjoy (which we do NOT enjoy in this country). Other than Budweiser and Rolex (and some equine products) I can’t think of any large companies supporting live media exposure of the wonderful equine events we have in this country. SO my point (which goes directly back to an original point which was also hotly contested), is that foreign breeders enjoy a level of government and societal support that we do not enjoy over here. It is not a huge leap to see that if the government and society in general offer more support for equine activities, it would be easier to make a living breeding horses. This is hardly a point worth disputing (yet some seem intent on arguing it anyway). It is something foreign breeder apparently take so much for granted they aren’t even aware of this difference.

I have heard again and again from foreign breeders that we Americans are ignorant and need to turn ourselves inside out to learn about what you all do. Well, some of us have.. maybe you all should do the same. And be aware, the slice of our society which you get from these boards is no more or less skewed of our society than it is of yours. I might offer that foreign posters at times make generalizations about us which are far off the mark… I guess it can be true of us all: we first make assumptions, then respond…then actually learn the facts later…

aurum

Jul. 26, 2003, 03:35 AM

Well as for the initial point, why wouldn't Americans been able to raise their foals in a manner like we do? I have 12 foals in a huge running stall and that is very good for socializing them. They have even enough space in there to gallop around and play when weather is bad and they cannot be turned out. It must not be hundreds, but 8 or 10 or perhaps more can live great together that way. Perhaps some breeders that live close to each other can have them raise together, perhaps one can take the colts and one the fillies. It is a matter of working together if you do not have as many foals to raise them like that and I can guarantee you that they will be very healthy foals with good horsey minds.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Cartier

Jul. 26, 2003, 03:46 AM

Gwen,
IF it was the "right" group of breeders (and that's the tricky part) I think it would be wonderful for a group to come together to support a common breeding goal...
Elaine

aurum

Jul. 26, 2003, 03:54 AM

Can't animosities been take aside and think for the "united goal" and just think about raising the WB foals, colts or fillies, together?

The foals do not care if they have the ISR/Old NA, GOV, Han., RPSI or Trak. brand on their butt. They want to live and play together to grow up healthy instead of being put into a rosey glass house.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Cartier

Jul. 26, 2003, 04:07 AM

Gwen,
Boy I can see where things could get screwed up… by “right” group of breeders I meant a group who truly had the same goals and, in my experience, it is difficult to find any group of people who can work together breeding towards a specific goal over a long period of time.. the green-eyed-monster often raises his ugly head and someone feels they’re getting the short end of the stick and pretty soon everyone is in dispute about a particular promising animal.. and the whole thing falls apart. I’ve seen the cycle again and again. For a group to work well together (in these kinds of situations) there must be clearly defined goals (an ability to make equal financial commitments) and a level of altruism rarely found in humans….

ise@ssl

Jul. 26, 2003, 05:37 AM

Gwen - perhaps you should visit breeding farms in the US - so you wouldn't make remarks about "rosey glass houses". I went to Germany and traveled to four of the major breeding regions and visited small farms, big farms, auctions and state stud farms. I base my opinions on what my own eyes saw. Haven't been to Holland but a gal here in my town went over for a year to work on the horse farms and I respect and believe her comments on the system there.

Different countries have different ways of managing livestock. But videos and photos are different than visiting. That even goes for Breeders right here in the USA. I've seen some really fancy advertisements in the COTH Stallion Issue - some even double page spreads and the farms were very different ...up close and personal. Sometimes those impressive photos in the advertisements weren't even taken at the breeding farms!!

I also think it's such an amazing phenomenon in the United States that just about anyone can call themselves a trainer or a breeder or an agent! Credentials? Experience? Accomplishments? Well no one really seems to ask for the details. There are people here in the US - acting as agents for European Breeders that have little or no qualifications - just friendships (and probably lucrative financial arrangements) with breeders across the pond. Then they take people to Europe on buying trips. What is always intriquing to me is who exactly are they working for?? They seem to have a really tight business set up with their "contacts" in Europe and "wine & dine" their US buyers - who usually come back with less cash and horses on queue to be shipped back here. Are they getting commissions from both sides? Or is the breeder overseas selling the agent a horse at reduced rate? These agents working in concert with the sellers very often set up the Vetting. Which as I stated earlier on this thread - is NOT what we see as a vetting here in the US. How do I know this?? A friend who is a Veterinarian - has been flown to Europe to vet horses for clients who realize the difference.

If you get on a riding horse in Europe and they don't tell you the horse is hot or bucks or whatever and you get injured - well it's your tough luck. We spoke to many people at the auctions and elsewhere about the fact that people try horses without helmets and don't have to be "vetted" regarding their riding ability. No releases. They laughed and said "oh you Americans". If someone gets hurt that's their problem - we don't have all this suing here in Germany.

Well - as a breeder I can tell you we have releases that were reviewed by attorneys. We require ASTM helmets & proper riding footwear and we do everything we can to try to assess the riding ability of buyers. But from experience we've seen many people who TOTALLY mis-represent how well they can ride. Our horses are well trained when offered for sale under saddle. But we've had people who take a death grip on the reins, or bounce so much at the sitting trot they almost bounce off - or worse get up in a two point gallop position and wonder why the horse is galloping!- while they have their heels digging into the horses's side like a vice. If they come off - well we can STILL be sued - even in our state (NJ) which has a very good law protecting horse facilities. There are just different legal standards that really add to our "costs" of doing business.

Oh! and how can I forget the woman who sounded oh so knowledgeable on the phone about dressage and her show career and knew the size of the horse I was selling 16.2 - modern type. She got out of her car and had to weigh in excess of 270 pounds. My horse was a good boy - but I could see he was struggling at the sit trot because she was dead weight. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jul. 26, 2003 at 02:41 PM.]

ise@ssl

Jul. 26, 2003, 05:46 AM

Regarding the concept of TV or cable coverage of horse events - I've given up on that. Equestrian sports will never nudge out the big boys of sports - i.e. football, baseball, basketball, hockey - or the "game" of golf. Not enough dough in the horse sports - except horse racing.

But what I'm really furious about is the fact that we CANNOT EVEN GET SHOW RESULTS through the Internet!!!! I've spent hours sometimes surfing various websites trying to find out the results of shows - EVEN RECOGNIZED SHOWS!! Is it incredible that we pay for memberships to the USDF & the USAEQ and part of the fees at shows cover the costs of the "office". Show secretaries tell me they have HUGE reporting responsibilities for the results from the shows and then it seems to go into some "vault". Is it wrong for us to expect that these results should be posted on respective websites for these associations on a timely basis. ISN'T THIS THE INFORMATION AGE?? Sometimes the shows themselves will have results posted - but many, many shows don't.

If we foot the bill for processing all of this information on who competed and what the competition results were - shouldn't the information be available to us??

nhwr

Jul. 26, 2003, 05:47 AM

Different American perspective:
I have bought several horses in Europe. Why? Convenience and price. Before I did this the first time, I travelled the country here and spent literally thousands of dollars on travel expenses to see half a dozen horses. First trip I took to Germany, I was there for 10 days, saw probably 250 horse, bought 3 of them (including a GP dressage horse w/scores 65%) for about $40K (not including shipping and quarantine), spent about $1,800 on travel expenses. That was 4 years ago. The exchange rate much more faverable, but I were shopping today, I'd do it again.

Why? Because I could see many more horses and therefore have a better choice by spending less in travel expenses. I can deal with people who, though they are attached to the horses they offer for sale, have a better understanding of the business they are in. As Kareen pointed out, horses are priced according to the conditions of the market generally, not by the amount of $$ the breeder has spent.

In Europe, there is a bigger supply, somewhat less demand and more competition among the sellers in a smaller area. That is a set up for dealing for a serious and agressive buyer. Hey it is the American way http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dune

Jul. 26, 2003, 06:14 AM

Ditto everything that nhwr said. However, I will say that for my next prospect, I am going to try very hard to buy one here in the US. I tried with the last one, but ended up importing and am very happy with my choice. I would love to be able to support the breeders here, though. We'll see..... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Tannenwald Trakehner

Jul. 26, 2003, 08:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:
but the fact is that we are not yet doing it in sufficient percentages to keep American buyers from looking overseas. When I don't have to make 30 phone calls, review 12 videos, then fly around the country to several different states to find ONE prospect for myself or a client, then I'll be happy to shop exclusively at home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That all sounds reasonable, and I do see this side of the equation. However, how are US breeders going to ever get "the percentages" up if there are no buyers for what is produced? Breeders cannot just warehouse horses. If what we produce, at a higher cost than what is produced overseas, does not sell, we cannot afford to stockpile it (keeping it again at higher costs than overseas). Instead, breeders will be driven out of business by sheer economics and there will never be what folks might consider a large enough selection of quality in this country.

Just think about it. Every time you make a purchase you are feeding one economy or the other, one country's horse industry or another. If it is important to a person as a horse purchaser that the US continues to grow to be a real contender in the sport horse breeding circle, then the choice of which economy to feed is clear.

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Equine Reproduction

Jul. 26, 2003, 08:33 AM

<smile>..I have watched this thread progress and have a couple insights to offer. First, yes, there is certainly a higher percentage of horses packed into a much smaller geographic area when shopping in Germany. However, it "does" still cost to travel there. On top of the "bargains" that may be available, you still have the significant costs of importation. I can do a heck of a lot of traveling around the US for consierably less.

Tannenwald stated eloquently about feeding another country's economy versus our own, but I will make another observation. If you are purchasing horses with the intent of marketing to the US market, WHY would you expect US buyers to purchase your horses when you weren't willing to offer the same courtesy? Ultimately, if you're not willing to support other breeders in this country, don't expect them to support your endeavors. You are, by shopping abroad, undermining the very industry you are attempting to become party to. It is the main reason I do not breed or buy anything but domestic horses... We "are" producing good quality animals and when you consider the cost of importation, I can purchase some very nice quaility horses at a reasonable price.

Kathy Mann-St.Martin
Mannuscript Farm
Home of the domestically born and bred stallion, Mannhattan http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.mannuscriptfarm.com

alexandra

Jul. 26, 2003, 09:08 AM

By the way the way yes I am keeping my horses in bigger groups 4 - 6 and yes I am working with the "right" breeders, because I do not have as many foals. But here people are not too fussy how foals are raised and people do it almost in the same way everywhere. so they quite often work together. I know breeders who send their only colt/filly in a year to others in exchange of another foal horse just to be able to keep them in a group.
And as already mentioned. If a buyer comes along and we have not the right horse in the barn. The telephone is picked up a few people called and of we are to other breeders/riders who might have something suitable. Maybe it is not me the buyer is giving business, but maybe next time the person who sold something is sending somewbody over to me. this system somehow works even though people are not altruistic. (And often things are solved via a commission of a few percent of the price given to the person who made the contact by the seller.)

And "Yes I like to keep horse in a stall that americans often call uncleaned". They call it incleaned just because there is nobody around everyday taking everything out and some nice looking fluffy stuff (maybe shavings) in. I have my reasons for that the same as you have yours for doing it the way we do. "You" not meaning anybody in particular (just to make sure nobody is offended again by a "knowing-all" German)
We put new straw on top - enough to look clean (therefore I would never call it uncleaned) and enough to give the horse the amount of rough food we believe it needs in addition to hay. The reasons for doing that were already stated: warm, it does not smell/stink if one does not stir around in the manure, horse are lying softly. Horses cannot slip and get injured on a concrete floor underneath the bedding because it is a ground were there can move and even canter if the stalls are big enough... And it is much cheaper, because putting straw on top takes much less time than mucking out completely everyday. And over here straw is way cheaper than shawings.
The disadvantage of it: it does not look super clean in our human eyes and you have to take care of the feet.

The initial question was why are people buying over here and I think lots of reasons where stated by those who have been in Europe to shop, those who have lots of things to do with American/Canadian buyers in Germany. So I think we mentioned a lot of points that all together give a picture.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

ise@ssl

Jul. 26, 2003, 11:14 AM

What's wrong with flag waving national pride?? For heavans sakes the competition between the Verbands in Germany is comparable to the NFL for crying out loud. And don't get in between someone from Holland someone from Germany debating about the quality of their horses. Let's be fair....and honest about it. Those equestrian competitions don't have teams from each country showingup without their national colours and flags waving all over or plastered on their saddle pads.

Hooey - why do European countries always make the claim that the Americans are so proud of being Americans. We are just as proud as most good citizens who have allegience to their country.

Why do you think they started branding the horses they breed in the first place. To let everyone know where the horse was bred because they wanted to "wave their own flag". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mbp

Jul. 26, 2003, 12:11 PM

Thank you for some of the interesting info Kareen, Alexandra and Aurum.

If so many of the breeders have just one mare, do you think they breed every year or now and then? For some reason I just assumed they would keep a filly or two now and then.

I found interesting the reference to only about 10% going to "show" homes. Somehow, when I hear the discussions about how many boarding stables there are, and how many local shows, I think I have the impression that LOTS of Germany horseowners show (bc it is cheaper and easier and more local than here), but maybe that is not correct? Or by "show" homes do you mean more upper level show homes?

To answer Alexandra's question - no, we don't get GP coverage much at all. There was some effort with ESPN, but here there is so much concentration on Football (not soccer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) baseball, basketball, golf (who in the world thinks dressage is boring after watching hours of golf with men in plaid??), car racing (why is it we can't tap into the market that thinks watching a group of cars going endlessly in circles is fascinating - I'm thinking car racing fans should be naturals for dressage), figure skating and tennis - they don't do much with anything else.

It is aggravating bc, in addition to horse sports, there are a lot of other sports I find interesting - Archery, Marksmanship, speed skating, etc. It is really much easier here to find coverage of a couple guys out drinking beer and fishing than to find any horse coverage.

Kareen

Jul. 27, 2003, 12:18 PM

In non-showing homes I was referring to showing in general. Every equine person in Germany was quite blown away by this data. It was revealed via a huge survey the FN had ordered with one of our major demographic institutes (FORSA if I remember correctly). Equestrian activities ranked I think 8th among other sports such as soccer or tennis so within Germany equestrian activities in general can still be considered a mass sport.
The same database also revealed what most equestrian people expect from spending their sparetime with the horse. Outcome was that the vast majority favors the recreational aspect much more than sportivity or any kind of competition. It also came visible our riding clubs nowadays do not cover the demands of the equestrian population in wide areas thus explaining why more and more equestrian enthusiasts prefer private facilities vs. riding in a club.

In my experience many problems in the horseworld stem from difficult humans involved. I wouldn't know a single riding club that has not been almost split up in a huge quarrel about minor everyday stuff over the past couple of years. The fact mainly women are involved doesn't exactly help either because in my experience we girls are much more subtle and creative about really rising a private barn war and intrique...
Let's be honest men are very unlikely to fight about anything but ladies or power which they just don't associate with equestrian activity. Hence clubs with a higher Male:female ratio tend to be a little more peaceful in my experience.

To those who didn't like my patriotism-comment I sure didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings and I didn't mean Americans shouldn't be proud to be Americans. Can be we Germans have an extremely paranoid vision of flag waving because of our own unholy history but I personally just can't get anything out of it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If I see all my fellow German neighbors putting up little red ferrari flags and next to it our national flag in their gardens because of the Schumacher bros. I find it equally senseless as any other flag waving. I guess everybody has their own definition of patriotism, some are flag wavers, some aren't and guess we should just leave it at that for the sake of this topic. Sorry again if anybody took offense I didn't mean it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Froh zu sein bedarf es wenig...

http://www.germanhorseconnection.com

mbp

Jul. 27, 2003, 02:05 PM

Thank you Kareen. I find that 10% eye opening too (changed some of my preconceptions). I did assume that probably the majority of German riders were active in competition. It is kind of comforting, in a way, that so many really just want to have fun with their horses.

So, do your riding clubs there have the physical facilities to board horses, then? That is an incredibly rare thing here. Mostly, the clubs here are made up of riders from many different private boarding facilities and "homestabled" horses. If you think it's easy for intrigue and dissension to bubble under the surfacw with the riding clubs there - imagine everyone from all the different private barns, with their different trainers and loyalties, all stuck together in the same club. LOL Every president of a GMO (that is Group Member Organization of our United States Dressage Federation) or riding club could spend hours having the "difficult humans" discussion with you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Most clubs here also have no show facilities or reasonable access to show facilities - they have to rent a private show facility (which is getting very pricey and hard to find) in order to have even a small schooling show.

I can't imagine living happily anyplace but here in the US, but I find it fascinating to discuss how things are handled/thought about elsewhere.

alexandra

Jul. 27, 2003, 07:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mbp:
Thank you Kareen. I find that 10% eye opening too (changed some of my preconceptions). I did assume that probably the majority of German riders were active in competition. It is kind of comforting, in a way, that so many really just want to have fun with their horses.

So, do your riding clubs there have the physical facilities to board horses, then? That is an incredibly rare thing here. Mostly, the clubs here are made up of riders from many different private boarding facilities and "homestabled" horses. If you think it's easy for intrigue and dissension to bubble under the surfacw with the riding clubs there - imagine everyone from all the different private barns, with their different trainers and loyalties, all stuck together in the same club. LOL Every president of a GMO (that is Group Member Organization of our United States Dressage Federation) or riding club could spend hours having the "difficult humans" discussion with you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Most clubs here also have no show facilities or reasonable access to show facilities - they have to rent a private show facility (which is getting very pricey and hard to find) in order to have even a small schooling show.

I can't imagine living happily anyplace but here in the US, but I find it fascinating to discuss how things are handled/thought about elsewhere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So here comes a description of our club and show life in Germany:
Our riding clubs often own an arena and a dressage ring and a jumping course. They often own a few horses which they use for teaching as in a riding school. Than they often have other stalls where people can keep their horses.
The riding school is often managed by people members of the club spending their free time to teach (very often for free or only for money to pay the gas the are using to arrive at the club facility). Mostly these facilities are nothing special or extraordinarily great.
The clubs do not have show grounds as you may know them. Some use for the shows their normal dressage ring or jumping course but mostly an average horse show is taking place on some field a few farmers let the clubs use (mostly for free). The shows are managed by people from the clubs (also mostly working for nothing). Nowerdays the food departmenet is sort of rented to professionals but I remember the days all the grandmums in the club were baking cakes making sandwiches and selling them along with coffee, tea, and soft drinks.
The organistaional part with all the paper work that has to be done and send to the FN is also often given away to professionals who have computers to have all the starting lists and so on.
Some of the riding clubs have their own fields which are used for hay and for having the show on it.
So one can see that dealing with horses and riding has a history of altruistic behaviour in Germany, even though I have to state that the younger generation does not get the sense from doing things for free and does not help anymore (me saying that beeing 35 is strange...).

Oh and there is something quite special in Germany: we have a lwa that rules how clubs have to be run. Not just ridng clubs, but also football clubs or gardening clubs and so on. It is rules how they have to deal with money, at which point they would turn into a professional organisation and therefor have to pay income taxes. It is also rules how many people with what kind of "work" have to be members or the ledng part of the club. e.g. there has to ben one doing al the money work and there has to be one or two people controlling that and there has to be an anula meeting of all members who have to accept (not the perfect word I am looking for for this process) the way "business" of the club was done by its leading party in the last year. There are also rules how often there have to be elections and so on. This is even controlled by the tax departments of the government and supervised by other governmental department the Amtsgericht.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

mbp

Jul. 28, 2003, 09:18 AM

We have some rules for clubs generally if they want to be tax-exempt. THey need to meet "charitable" purposes of 501(c) of our tax code, or for horse organizations they might sometimes qualify as business associations that are promoting the business/trade area in general (and no specific business). Depending on what type of organization (corporation, assoc,LLC, etc.) there are rules that vary from State to State as far as annual meetings, officers, etc. but it sounds as if you have more specific "oversight" type of rules. I wouldn't mind a little more oversight rules here, bc there have been a lot of abuses with charitable organizations. We could probably do fine with the rules we have already if there was more active enforcement.

I know here in the States, liability is very differnt than in Europe, but do the farmers who loan out their fields and club members who teach, etc. NEVER have to worry about someone getting hurt or having property damaged and suing? Either the rider who may be dumped, or the driver of a car that runs into a loose horse, or any of those kind of situations?

I remember when there were more "in the field" small shows here in the States too (with home baked goods at for sale). These days, though, everyone is very concerned with footing and no one wants to ride a dressage test or jumpe a course in a ring set in a field, in part because of the expense of the horses. Everyone expects stabling on the show grounds and very few dressage riders in particular would work from a trailer at a show.

How did your clubs get their land/facilities to start with? Did they have to get donations and buy land, or did they have land grants (we have several "land grant universities" here in the States) or did it just vary from club to club? We have a very extensive system of 4-H Clubs here in the US, and they mostly have their own facilities, with fairgrounds, buildings, etc. - but I don't really know how they got their land and facilities originally. They often have a "horse and pony" division, but they are mostly dedicated to Western riding styles and none of them, to my knowledge, own horses or give lessons or board horses or anything along those lines.

We do usually have a lot of volunteers from our GMOs or Pony Clubs or other organizations if they are putting on a show, but we usually have large facilities costs, insurance costs, and the charges for the judges (with also travel expenses - which can be very very high, and lodging - many judges are housed in hotels, although sometimes for small shows a judge will stay with a club member. We also, in addition to judge fees, have fees for Technical Delegates for recognized shows, and all the general expenses for ribbons and awards and printing show programs, etc. The paperwork for a recognized show can be very burdensome and most shows pay a show secretary now. So the costs mount up for the show, and the entry fees go up. Then we have a situation here where there are usually multiple organizations you need to "join" to compete, and they have different rules and charges for registering your horse as well (this is completely separate and apart from any registering with a breed registry). Usually, too, the rider as well as the owner might need to be a member - so there is often a large cost associated with just paying all the initial fees first in order to even be able to show, then the entry fees that have to cover so many costs. It is more streamlined and much less expensive, in general, for the Western riding style shows.

So it seems as if it would be much easier to get some "show miles" in Germany. That is always a help for buyers. They like to know a horse has been to a show environment and handled it without getting too nervous or difficult.

Thank you for the insight into some of the differences. It makes for some interesting comparisons.

Alagirl

Jul. 28, 2003, 10:18 AM

Maybe we should move the Club as athread to Off Course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The German clubs are all a bit different, much depends on the size.

One club came abouts their land - a nice big property, by now in prime location - by means of a buy-out.
Their old grounds where bulldozed rubble left from WWII, now the Autobahn runs through it.
They own about or close to twenty lesson horses, have several shows a year (used to with huge member volunteer participation, but I'm out of the loop) grass jumping course with hill and ditch...huge warm-ups, couple of dressage rings...(and a carriage for weddings)

Anotherone - might as well be desfunked by now only had a smallish arena in the middle of nowhere.

Many clubs *hitch-hike* on existing property, some have no horses at all, or barns, they just meet and maybe have a show.

One has an annual show with top-notch sport, upperlevel jumping and dressage, though - at that time - next to nobody in the club was anywhere near that level, and while most clubs have a two day affair - saturday+Sunday - they early on had to scedule shows for Friday!

Their grounds are in the middle of nowhere, if you don't know where you're going, you'll miss it, even standing on the road right above it!

The fieare mostly for parking. Almost nobody goes farther than an hours drive, so you don't need stables.
And the norm are cars and two horse bumperpulls, so yes, even DQs travel this way - usually! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

alexandra

Jul. 28, 2003, 01:23 PM

even though this topic is not under the original topic, I'd like to answer. I think it is interesting to learn how you do it and how we do it.
I'll type my answers right into the quote starting and ending with ***

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mbp:
We have some rules for clubs generally if they want to be tax-exempt. THey need to meet "charitable" purposes of 501(c) of our tax code, or for horse organizations they might sometimes qualify as business associations that are promoting the business/trade area in general (and no specific business). Depending on what type of organization (corporation, assoc,LLC, etc.) there are rules that vary from State to State as far as annual meetings, officers, etc. but it sounds as if you have more specific "oversight" type of rules. I wouldn't mind a little more oversight rules here, bc there have been a lot of abuses with charitable organizations. We could probably do fine with the rules we have already if there was more active enforcement.
*** I am sure that there is also abuseof these clubs over here but not too often heard about. This law I mentioned does not only take place for riding clubs. Also for gardeners, stamp collectors who ever wnat to found an official club "Verein".***

I know here in the States, liability is very differnt than in Europe, but do the farmers who loan out their fields and club members who teach, etc. NEVER have to worry about someone getting hurt or having property damaged and suing? Either the rider who may be dumped, or the driver of a car that runs into a loose horse, or any of those kind of situations?
*** Liability really is not that much in Germany. Maybe because "we" have the rules that everybody has to care for himself at least a little bit. A very common thing people are referring to when talking about liability in the US is the example of a women who put a cat into the microwave to dry it and got her right just because the microwave company did not write on the manual don't dry your cat in it" I have no clue whether this is true or not, but here the courts would expect a little bit of common sense and the woman would not get her right to sue the company.
So if a horse dumps the rider it is the matter of the rider or if the horse is not owned by him of the owner or the insurance of the owner. Same if a loose horse bumps into a car: horses have to be insured to compete and therefore the insurance of the horse will be paying. If I damage the ground with my car like letting oil out or whatever it is my fault and the owner of the land can try to sue me for cleaning the soil and so on. The riding club would never be involved at all. Than there are always in advance in the rules hints about who is responsiblke for what in case of something happens like that the club does not take responsibility for something that happens to you while you are riding there. The courts would respect that and the person would only be able to sue the club or othert people if they acted in an uncommon way. e.g. somebody would let a firecracker explode in the dressage ring.
Basic opinion of the law is: everybody has a certain responsbility for him-/herself and cannot sue everybody for anything that happens. I hope my unscilled law knowledge at least gives you an idea.***

I remember when there were more "in the field" small shows here in the States too (with home baked goods at for sale). These days, though, everyone is very concerned with footing and no one wants to ride a dressage test or jumpe a course in a ring set in a field, in part because of the expense of the horses. Everyone expects stabling on the show grounds and very few dressage riders in particular would work from a trailer at a show.
*** Well people will sometimes fuss about the ground e.g. if it had rained a few days and the dressage ring on the grass is slippery. But there is sort of an attitude like if you cannot make it on that ground stay at home or put cogs into the horse shoes. Of course in the higher classes people are worried and complain, but mostly they do not take it so seriously. Even at the bigger show e.g. with Intermediare people often start right from the trailer after a 2 hour drive. Only at the big national hows stabling is expected. But in our small country I think you will find a show with a dressage like Intermediare within an 2 hour drive almost every weekend in the summer (at least in northern Germany). Just met Jörn Kubelke at two or three shows lately -who is also known in the US- who started of the trailer at these three shows. ****

How did your clubs get their land/facilities to start with? Did they have to get donations and buy land, or did they have land grants (we have several "land grant universities" here in the States) or did it just vary from club to club? We have a very extensive system of 4-H Clubs here in the US, and they mostly have their own facilities, with fairgrounds, buildings, etc. - but I don't really know how they got their land and facilities originally. They often have a "horse and pony" division, but they are mostly dedicated to Western riding styles and none of them, to my knowledge, own horses or give lessons or board horses or anything along those lines.
*** Lot of these clubs rent the ground on a long term lease like 30 up to 99 years. they build the stalls, arenas with the help of all members. Who either pay or work. Sometimes they even get loans from banks, because the "Verein" is considered just like a company with certain rights. I do not know a club that actually bought the land (I might just not know it because it is not spoken about.) But often the fields for the shows are given for free or a smal fee. Alagirl is right: Sometimes but seldom if you do not know where you need to go for such a show you often end up not finding it. But in the meantime the all have signs from the major streets you have to follow. To give you an idea: our local shows that have tests up to class L (dressage test 2 (?) an a hight of 1,20m (?) to jump) will have like 20 - 30 classes for beginners (kids) up to the higher classes. The number of horses varies normally in my area between 350 and 600 horses for one show (how can you do stabling for those.... ;-) ) Classes will have 3 or more sections (?)with 25 - 30 riders in one section. We do not have a champion of the show or highest scoring horses. You are either placed in the certain class or not.***

We do usually have a lot of volunteers from our GMOs or Pony Clubs or other organizations if they are putting on a show, but we usually have large facilities costs, insurance costs, and the charges for the judges (with also travel expenses - which can be very very high, and lodging - many judges are housed in hotels, although sometimes for small shows a judge will stay with a club member.
**** Well I guess it is the same here, but since the judges come from the local area you do not have to pay hotels for them, but their expanses like gas and a fee for the day. Facility costs and insurance won't be that much, but might excist in some cases.***

We also, in addition to judge fees, have fees for Technical Delegates for recognized shows, and all the general expenses for ribbons and awards and printing show programs, etc.
*** This is also the same for big shows there are also technical delegates and so on, but these are not the shows our average rider is visiting. The costs for ribbons, awards (usually something useful such as briddles, halters...) and the program also arous. Ofdten paid by sponsors named in the program of having ads in it.***

The paperwork for a recognized show can be very burdensome and most shows pay a show secretary now. So the costs mount up for the show, and the entry fees go up.
*** I think entry fees are fixed according to the level the class is, but I am not sure about that. Big four day shows with Grand Prix and so on also hire a person or company doing all the paperwork.***

Then we have a situation here where there are usually multiple organizations you need to "join" to compete, and they have different rules and charges for registering your horse as well (this is completely separate and apart from any registering with a breed registry).

Usually, too, the rider as well as the owner might need to be a member - so there is often a large cost associated with just paying all the initial fees first in order to even be able to show, then the entry fees that have to cover so many costs. It is more streamlined and much less expensive, in general, for the Western riding style shows.

*** We also hav to register our horses and ourselves if we want to compete atr a certain level just above beginners. But fortunately it is just one organisation. The German branch of the FEI the FN. That's where also the results are recorded and collected and where the breeders get the money from that Gwen ans others where talking about further up. So here we go, back to the starting question ;-)
Nowerdays th FN even rules the Western shows that become more popular over here. (I find it stupid. The Western stuff (Neither riding or the attitude, the clothes and the life Style) never was part of our history and tradition. I I think it looks stupid when we are riding around in Germany as if being right in the middle of the good old West in the US. But that is my opinion and I know that lots of germans would literally kill me for that opinion.)***

So it seems as if it would be much easier to get some "show miles" in Germany. That is always a help for buyers. They like to know a horse has been to a show environment and handled it without getting too nervous or difficult.
*** I would say that the average young girl riding at shows will go to 10 shows a year.***

Thank you for the insight into some of the differences. It makes for some interesting comparisons.

*** I find it very astonishing and interesting reading about the shows taking place in Florida. I still have not completely understood, but am I right these shows are taking place during the week and kids get of from school to go down there for a few weeks with their trainer (Another thing different here. In most cases you go to a show without a trainer or groom and do it yourself. The Pros have grooms and people are taking friends along to give them a hand. If the trainer happens to be at the show, he will give you a little bt of advice when you warm up, but That's it (there are for sure different situations like big championships, but it is very uncommon to take a trainer with you who ets extra money for coming along.) Our normal shows take place on saturday and sunday all the day (not at night) sometimes at fridays and very often on Saturdays there is a party in the (food) tent with music, dancing and bear.***

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

mbp

Jul. 28, 2003, 03:04 PM

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread - but I do think some of these differences do partly go to answering the original question. Understanding the differences in the overall structure and environment helps with understanding differences in what is available, IMO.

I gather that the mare shows, etc. though are all organized through the verbands and not local riding clubs? How about foal inspections - are they at the breeder's facility, or at a central location? Just other breeders there or are there riders, etc. from the general area there to watch too?

Florida shows - and some of the big "Circuit" shows for the hunter/jumper crew, yes - kids will take off from school Usually not for the whole duration - and the kids that get to do this are a very, very small group. Mostly the shows are over the weekend, but the big ones do extend into the week (many of our hunter and dressage shows are Fri Sat Sun, but some of the really big shows might start even earlier in the week. They go to FLA not so much bc the shows are on weekdays, as bc going back and forth is too time consuming/expensive. BUt some will stay in school, have the horse in FLA with the trainer, and just fly in for shows. The whole Florida Circuit is a pretty expensive undertaking (particularly the hunter end) and not something that the majority of riders here will ever be able to do.

On the trainers/grooms etc. front a lot of competitors from smaller barns or competitors at smaller shows just have a friend or family member to help out - or trade off with someone else they know at the show or trade off in exchange for trailering. But there are a large group of competitors who would not be comfortable being completely on their own at a show, with no help or trainer/coach. Not so much a groom, as a coach to organize things and warm them up and be there if they can't load their horse or if it is spooky about the judges boxes, etc. Many of the competitors (and a lot are middle aged women) don't have a lot of horse care experience (as they board their horses) and they would feel uncomfortable without someone. Event riders, though, tend to be more like what you describe. More independent and willing to work from trailers, etc. THe bigger stables at a dressage show, or a lot of the stables at nice hunter shows, will have paid grooms, but only a very very few DQs actually have someone else do all their grooming and tacking up, etc. despite how much we tease. Yes, some are back getting their makeup just right while a herd of grooms sweat over their horses, but not very many really.

I remember being a little shocked at KY Horsepark several years ago. A German woman who was new to our area, but who I knew a little, had two classes very close together on two different horses, a mare and her father's stallion. She talked me into bringing the stallion up for her (I had never handled a stallion). The shock was when I asked where he was stabled. He was waiting patiently in the trailer, parked in a nice shady spot. She was working out of the trailer at a 3 day show (she had a friend's farm not far where she took them at night) with a MARE AND STALLION. She was all by herself. Stallion won all his classes, mare won some, top 3 in all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But we have sucked her in now - she gets stabling and even tack rooms and does Florida. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A lot of the shows here have a competitors party. Sometimes you pay extra for the competitors party, sometimes not. It is pretty normal for there to be coffee and sometimes donuts for you very early when you get there. Very seldom do you win things like halters, etc. Mostly, it is a ribbon. Some classes will have an award also - usually silverplated cups or things like that.

I am trying to picture shows every weekend, within 2 hours, with 300+ horses, in rings in the field, everyone working from trailers. I don't know whether it is not more avaialable bc people will not do it (show out of the trailer, on the grass, etc.) or whether bc it is not available, we don't know if people would do it? Eventers and western style riders will work out of their trailer, but many a dressage rider will not.

In any event, it seems that it makes it much easier to put miles on a horse and on a rider for that matter. And shorter hauls would also make it a more social occassion. Everyone is going to meet and greet on a more frequent basis. I think that would help build the networking. Everyone starts to "know" everyone by seeing them fairly frequently at nearby shows.

I plead guilty to hijacking, but I think I was taking the plane in a roughly similar direction. I will stop now, though, in case it has gone to far afield. Thanks again. Mary

Hephaistion

Jul. 28, 2003, 03:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
America has produced far more than the QH; which by the way, no other breed of horse is superior to as far as for what uses it was produced for, in the world--same goes for the Standardbred, which the French nor Russian trotter can be compared to; our Thoroughbreds are the fastest and have been the greatest to ever run on a track, shall I continue? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, please don't http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Your statements are outrageously egocentric IMO.

In idolizing the QH as the best result of intentional breeding in the world, you seem to have forgotten the Arab. I would think that its development centuries ago into a truly great distance horse in the desert with an ability to go long periods without water is more than on par with the QH's development.

Oh, and please don't forget that thoroughbreds orginated in England, not America, so please don't lump them in with the QH's and Morgans etc. And yes, while some of the fastest ones lately have definitely been bred in the US, when it comes to stayers and classic distances, Ireland and England are still the best producers. Why else do the top US eventers go over to the UK to shop? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

oh, and of course you knew that Northern Dancer was Canadian right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

There are many horses bred all over the world for special purposes within their geographical region who have excelled in their niche every bit as much as any horse breed in the US has (the spanish Iberian horses, the Halflinger, the Lippizan, Akhal Teke and even the Welsh Pony) Given their diversity, I don't think you can compare them against each other, nor do I think you should. Many many horses of all different breeds have helped us humans advance our cultures in many different ways. Personally, I like them all http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"Toss me... Don't tell the elf."-Gimli

*SERAPH*

Jul. 28, 2003, 04:37 PM

Jair--

The point I was trying to make was not to put non-American breeds down. The point was to remind people about what we, as American breeders, are capable of producing.

After all, we are concerned with the marketability of American bred horses here and throughout the rest of the world. We have the ability, just as any other European nation, to produce top level sporthorses. I truly feel that we do not have to import them. But, aside from that, if we do import them, we have the ability to take the breeding of whatever breed we import to another level. If that sounds egocentric, I can't help it; I am, after all, an American! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

By the way, I personally LOVE the Akhal Teke and think the world of them. Also think the Connemaras are extrordinary!

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

siegi b.

Jul. 28, 2003, 06:41 PM

Seraph - your point initially was to suggest that we could come up with a superior sporthorse (as compared to European warmbloods) by using American horses such as saddlebreds, Morgans, walking horses, etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the chances of that happening during your or my lifetime are slim to none.
There is nothing wrong with learning from other people's experiences, regardless of their nationality, and as much as you can't stand it, the Europeans have in fact pioneered the breeding of excellent sporthorses that are competitive in today's FEI disciplines. So let's take all that knowledge and apply it to our own breeding efforts and produce a better, more competitive sport horse that will entice American riders to look in this country first.
There have been some very informative postings from our German counterpart regarding horse statistics, show information, etc. - all information that allows us a better understanding as to why it's more cost effective to raise young horses in that country. Let's learn from it and see how or if we can apply some of this to our own situations. Belittling this information as NIH (not invented here) is not patriotic, it's pathetic.

*SERAPH*

Jul. 28, 2003, 07:13 PM

"Seraph - your point initially was to suggest that we could come up with a superior sporthorse (as compared to European warmbloods) by using American horses such as saddlebreds, Morgans, walking horses, etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the chances of that happening during your or my lifetime are slim to none."

siege b.--

I never suggested we use ASB's, Morgans, and walking horses; don't even know where you came up with that. I did say, in particular, that we should study the Selle Francais breeding system and more importantly, the breeds and system in which they developed an international caliber sporthorse in less than 60 years.

My other thought; we have had a "warmblood" in this country that has been bred for over 260 years of breeding. That breed is the ASB. I did not say that it was perfect in every way in a consistant way for the sporthorse discipline. What I was suggesting is that we use select European warmbloods, just as the Euro registries used other breeds to upgrade their foundation stock, to cross with our stock in a relevant fashion to bring about the evolution of American sporthorses in a more timely fashion.

Where the success will be apparent is in what foundation stock we based this on and then intelligently crossed to them from other countries.

And then, of course, set a "verband" in place to performance test the results and from there to "cull".

It didn't take rocket science to create the warmblood phenomena; just took a certain amount of VISION, EDUCATION, RISK, FAILURE, and then finally, SUCCESS.

But hey, I did my homework.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

STF

Jul. 28, 2003, 07:22 PM

Seraph.....

It seems to me with all your posts, that you are more intersted in trying to promote the ASB horse, not really comment on the subject!?!???

Trust us....we ALL know you love teh ASB breed....BUT I honestly do not see the ASB breed dominating the Olympic Sports. If that was the case, it would have happened a long time ago! Maybe they have done 260 years.....but it has not proved much for all that work when it come to the Olympic Sports!!!

Germany has been kicking our rear for a LONG time....(Dressage)....and we are just now getting into the ranks, why?!? Could it be beacuse we are importing their horses and using their training methods?!?! Hummmmm.......

http://www.spindletopfarms.com

*SERAPH*

Jul. 28, 2003, 08:06 PM

"Germany has been kicking our rear for a LONG time....(Dressage)....and we are just now getting into the ranks, why?!? Could it be beacuse we are importing their horses and using their training methods?!?! Hummmmm......."

And you think, with the breeding program that they have set in place, that they are now going to sit stagnant and let our warmblood breeding here catch up to their breeding endeavors? Don't they set the breeding trends within the industry through their European verbands? And we're getting the finest that they are breeding to use in our breeding programs?

Are you advocating we simply be satisfied with being a consumer as opposed to having our own innovation and vision? Well, I suppose we can be happy with being down in the world rankings in dressage and showjumping. After all, Americans have always been happiest being second best...I'm sorry, maybe I should have said third or fourth or fifth or...

We have wonderful riders here. We do have wonderful horses here. But until we understand the competition and apply real, patient knowledge to our breeding endeavors, and yes, with national pride, you'll only see us slip further.

Yes, I am an advocate of the ASB breed, as you are an advocate of the warmblood lines. And?

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

wanderlust

Jul. 28, 2003, 09:09 PM

Coming to the game a little late...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:

Cartier--Don't know anything about what went on registry-wise in the 80's-90's; but I do agree with you 100% about everything else. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oh, here is another site you can see an American Saddlebred stallion performing some dressage. Wanted to also say that what you see in my stallion and in the one on the site below is the NORM--NOT the EXCEPTION!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://groups.msn.com/BrummettdressageTraining

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they are the norm, I will happily stay far away from the ASBs and stick with my thoroughbreds and warmbloods. The horse on that website is 1: incorrectly broken at the 3rd vertebrae, not correctly at the poll; 2: sucked back, behind the bit and not accepting contact. In fact, I see a pretty dramatic loop in the reins, also not correct. and 3: pretty dramatically on the forehand in several of those photos.

No offense, but I see nothing in your stallion or in the others you have posted that leads me to believe that the ASB can be in any way compared to the European-rooted warmbloods. Nor would I ever breed to them, because I don't believe that they can in any way improve on the currently successful and popular warmblood bloodlines.

Your ASB rhetoric is starting to get old, as is your hijacking of threads to promote your unbroke, unproven stallion (who, IMHO, would make a nice gelding) and to defend your percieved injustices to the ASB as a breed. I'm glad that you love your horse and that you are a proponent of the breed, but please, step away from the rose-colored glasses and come back to the reality that the rest of us live in.

Kareen

Jul. 28, 2003, 11:12 PM

mbp I had to smile when you wrote that about the lady first showing her two horses off the trailer and then being 'sucked up' http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Since my 18th birthday (drivers license yahoo...) I've always gone by myself with or without stallions on board. Many friends didn't understand why I never took someone with me to help. The way I see it is yes it is more convenient to have someone to hold your tophat, prevent your horse from sliming you all green when you are dressed up or even do the running around about how many horses until your own start. But once you've gotten the swing of showing on your own I found it to make for a real good feeling of partnership with my horses.
That goes as far as to sharing my lunch-snickers hehe.
As a side effect loading problems are unheard of among the horses I show. Somehow if they know they have to behave well because otherwise nothing really works, they simply function without any fuss. Even my actual mare Danzig who took some time to developp a trusting relationship now auto-loads and tolerates pretty much anything I do to her and people adore her manners at shows.

Most Europeans have no idea of what's involved in showing in North America. We just throw our little trailer on the bumper, clean our stuff and off it goes. I often point out to N.A. shoppers to please make sure your European find travels well, particularly if you plan to show a lot at home.

Prices are Florida show circuits would in my area literally prevent horse shows from happening.

Re. inspections and mareshows those either happen on associated riding club facilities or on some breeders property. However it is the local breeding club who does the organization. Believe it or not in my breeding club you will receive a 10 Euro thank you fee for each mare you bring to show. It is called braiding money and meant to either be converted into food and drinks right at the show or handed to the kid or friend who did the braiding for you. About the only event I could think of you get something vs. paying all the time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Our club finances itself from reasonable member fees. I'd say our bookkeeper is doing an excellent job because at the end of the year there always is a little leftover spent on a free meal at the annual meeting. I should add our club isn't extremely active though and very frugal. We don't even hold a central foal show but meet up at the indoor some sunday in June and then drive to every single member who has a foal that year.
Of course we are on the road all day and at the end of it pretty much everybody except the drivers is quite drunk. We then finish with a simple BBQ and discuss who had the best foal and which stallion really didn't keep his promises.
In a way it's great because thus you see all foals, not just the good ones like anywhere else. And often I find it much more helpful to see all the ones that did not work out. The downside of it is - no central location - no official judgeing - no advertising tool as a champion foal is not announced.

Froh zu sein bedarf es wenig...

http://www.germanhorseconnection.com

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 02:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Your ASB rhetoric is starting to get old, as is your hijacking of threads to promote your unbroke, unproven stallion (who, IMHO, would make a nice gelding) and to defend your percieved injustices to the ASB as <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Geez Master Tally,

Aren’t you being a bit harsh here… how about alittle tolerance? Readers here can distinguish between an ASB and say… the Celle Stallions, the PSI Auction Horses (or whatever one’s standards of Warmblood excellence are) … and so what if SERAPH is pushing a stallion? A hundred other posters are doing exactly the same thing … you have to weed through it from time to time… would it kill you to just politely ignore the self / breed promotion? And as for hijacking the thread… several posters have taken this thread off in different directions… and it’s been valuable, informative conversation… so what’s the harm?

Sporthorse South

Jul. 29, 2003, 03:49 AM

A couple of comments:

Regarding the difference in shows here and in Germany - I had the good fortune to attend the Oldenburg Elite Mare show in Rastede last month. This show had 100 of Oldenburg's very best young mares (had to qualify based on mare inspection and performance test scores). It is a hugely important event in the Oldenburg breeding year, and very prestigious. Guess what? There is virtually no stabling on the grounds - the participants simply pull up in their horse trailers and work out of the trailer. And a good many of them are there all day long, especially those whose mares are invited back for the Brilliantring at the end of the day. Oh, it's also an outdoor venue, with no covered arena, no covered viewing stands, etc. Can you imagine having a show this pretigious in the U.S. with NO stabling, NO covered arena, NO covered viewing area? They also just had the Oldenburg Landeschampionat there (much larger than the Mare show, with dressage and jumping competitions, and a qualifier for the Bundeschampionat). Same thing, the participants worked out of their trailers, including people with numerous stallions to show.

And to take the thread back to the original train of thought - we just recently made an inquiry in Europe about riding horses for a couple of clients. Within 4 days we received from our contact there a 3-page listing of suitable horses - about 22 horses in all, with photo, brief description, very reasonable prices, and a short video clip of each horse (the list came by email). These horses are all located within a 2-3 hour drive of each other in northern Germany and Denmark - very easy to see them all with one short trip overseas. I can't imagine how long it would take for us to receive videos and other pertinent info on 22 suitable horses here, or how long it would take to fly around the country to try even just a few of them. So again, the sheer numbers of well-bred, good quality, well-started horses there make the marketing effort much, much easier for their breeders/sellers, and the shopping effort much, much easier for buyers. To compete, North American breeders/sellers are going to have to focus even harder on breeding very good quality EUROPEAN-type warmblood horses, getting them well-started, and then putting them in venues in large enough numbers to attract buyers, such as the regional training / sales centers that have been mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

ise@ssl

Jul. 29, 2003, 05:24 AM

Just curious as a US Breeder with horses (unbroken and under saddle) for sale. What do these sellers in Europe want as a commission as far as percentage? Or is it a flat fee? Just trying to see the comparable numbers when the airfare, hotel, etc. costs are factored in to the price. Also who pays the agent - if there is one - the seller in Germany or the buyer from the US?

To the Buyers - what's the maximum % of price you will pay for a horse (anywhere)? Does it matter to you if the agent (if there is one) is getting a fee from the seller as well as you?

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jul. 29, 2003 at 09:42 AM.]

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 05:52 AM

It’s truly impossible to set a maximum price we’d pay (within reason of course… no $100K plus animals for us just yet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And “yes” what we’d have to pay to an agent matters to us… it matter a great deal. In most instances I think an agent has too many hidden agendas to ever be useful to us (though I’m sure others find them valuable). As for going abroad, sometimes you have to in order to get a certain bloodline… it really depends on what you want… but if it’s just a spectacular foal… well look at what Lesley has offered for $8,000 (see Woodstock on her wesite at www.trevelyanfarm.com (http://www.trevelyanfarm.com) ) I don’t think you can duplicate that quality, for that price, with an import.

aurum

Jul. 29, 2003, 06:03 AM

I have never heard that the BUYER pays commission. In Germany the SELLER pays a 10% commission to the person that has brought the client.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 29, 2003, 06:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>we just recently made an inquiry in Europe about riding horses for a couple of clients. Within 4 days we received from our contact there a 3-page listing of suitable horses - about 22 horses in all, with photo, brief description, very reasonable prices, and a short video clip of each horse (the list came by email). These horses are all located within a 2-3 hour drive of each other in northern Germany and Denmark - very easy to see them all with one short trip overseas. I can't imagine how long it would take for us to receive videos and other pertinent info on 22 suitable horses here, or how long it would take to fly around the country to try even just a few of them <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sporthorse South ...

YES! This is the issue at hand.

And my question ... going back to original idea ...

HOW in the heck are US breeders supposed to compete with this!

The adventure has begun...
KT

ise@ssl

Jul. 29, 2003, 06:07 AM

Well I know of many people here who have gone over with their trainers/agents who paid them BIG commissions for finding riding horses for them. In fact, when I think of it - I've never heard of a buyer that didn't pay a commission! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 06:09 AM

But Gwen,
The seller has added the commission into the price of the horse, so the purchaser is ultimately paying the commission after all. Just like in a real estate transaction, even though the seller writes the commission check, the commission was factored into the sales price… so the purchaser is paying whether or not they actually write the check. That’s why paying two commissions, to an agent for the seller and buyer, on the same sales transaction is out of the question.

aurum

Jul. 29, 2003, 06:23 AM

When I sell a horse it has a fixed price, if there is someone bringing along a buyer and he pays my price, I give 10% of that to the person that brought the buyer, no adding to the price before.

If I tell someone that this or that horse is for sale at price xy and the other person sells that horse in his/her name for another price then I get my price and the "agent" gets what is the amount between my price and his/her price.

These are two different transactions.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

*SERAPH*

Jul. 29, 2003, 06:24 AM

"Your ASB rhetoric is starting to get old, as is your hijacking of threads to promote your unbroke, unproven stallion (who, IMHO, would make a nice gelding) and to defend your percieved injustices to the ASB as a breed. I'm glad that you love your horse and that you are a proponent of the breed, but please, step away from the rose-colored glasses and come back to the reality that the rest of us live in."

Master Tally--

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gifI'm beginning to believe that some people do not actually read the entire thread. They simply jump onto something said that they do not like and then comment on it; generally completely taking it out of context.

As for me hijacking threads: Apparently you haven't noticed the two other threads I am currently active on I STARTED. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif If the threads were hijacked, it was certainly NOT done by me. If you go back through this thread, you will see that I have posted on several diffent issues within this discussion here.

As far as trying to promote my stallion, that is simply ludicrous as the pics that he has been shown in would hardly be to the advantage of an up and coming ASB sporthorse stallion. Pics of him successfully placing in at least intermediate level jumping would be more appropriate, as well as him professionally turned out and showing far better movement (under saddle). I am very good at marketing; so it will suffice as to say that I am not trying to market him to ANYONE at this point.

Using the ASB in a sporthorse breeding program is something I whole-heartedly believe in; but you certainly do not have to agree with me.

The focus of this thread, at least as far as far as what it's become, has been an exchange of ideas regarding the American sporthorse market; how we can bring the consumer to us, how we can possibly reduce costs so that we are able to offer something to the American buyer and making it more convenient and desirable to go look at, how we can possibly change the ENTIRE infrastructure as to how things are done now so that American Sporthorse breeders can begin to see the fruits of their labor.

If you have nothing to add to THAT conversation, perhaps another thread would be more to your liking.

As for me, I am interested in the replies that ise@ssl receives to her last questions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 06:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If I tell someone that this or that horse is for sale at price xy and the other person sells that horse in his/her name for another price then I get my price and the "agent" gets what is the amount between my price and his/her price.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gwen,
I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. Can we use an example? Let’s say that you're offering "Flicka" for sale for $2.00 and then Sally sells Flicka for $5.00. She gives you $2.00 and pockets $3.00. Is that what you're saying?
I don't understand why Sally would be taking or accepting offers on your Flicka? Could you explain please?

carosello

Jul. 29, 2003, 06:32 AM

Actually I did not pay a commission when I purchased my mare.
And I spent 4-5 months looking in the US first. What I found was, people who didnt send me videos after I called. People who were slow to respond to emails. People who really didnt want to sell. So I put our feelers elsewhere. I was not in a rush. I received a video of some German horses and went from there. I had to buy young, unproven and unbroke to get what I wanted but in the end I could not have found it here (because frankly Im still crusing the ads and havent found what I bought). I had to leave my mare in Germany for another year till I had enough money to import her (and foal) but she was pregnant again. For me it worked...but do I look in the US-yes I do. But the best mares, they are not for sale at a price I can afford. Could I afford to do it from Germany now, heck no..not the way the ecconomy and dollar is against the Euro. Me I got very lucky.
My mare is currently at the trainers and Im told she is Unflappable. The best horse in the barn and has only been there for a week! I was also told this by the importer and frankly everyone who has come in contact with her.

STF

Jul. 29, 2003, 07:11 AM

Ok....but my question as a breeder is why can we suceed now here in the US?? (Im talking breeding, not training)!

We import the best mares....and we can get semen shipped in from all over the world?!?! Right???

We have the Embryo Trasfer option too!

What is stopping us (other than funds) to getting a good breeding program going here in the states?!?!

http://www.spindletopfarms.com

aurum

Jul. 29, 2003, 07:12 AM

Elaine, often that is what happens to breeders when agents are involved. The breeder gets the price he wants and the so called agent sells for whatever he wants. If the buyer would have gone directly to the breeder he would have had the horse probably for a lower price.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

ise@ssl

Jul. 29, 2003, 07:15 AM

Carosello - just for clarification - how did you get the video? Directly from the sellers in Germany or from an importer who is here in the US? Thanks

carosello

Jul. 29, 2003, 07:21 AM

Neither, from the Verband office! I purchased the mare directly from the breeder.

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 07:24 AM

DID the Verband office also offer you video of American bred mares?

Alagirl

Jul. 29, 2003, 07:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by STF:
Ok....but my question as a breeder is why can we suceed now here in the US?? (Im talking breeding, not training)!

We import the best mares....and we can get semen shipped in from all over the world?!?! Right???

We have the Embryo Trasfer option too!

What is stopping us (other than funds) to getting a good breeding program going here in the states?!?!

http://www.spindletopfarms.com
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me see...
Dutch, Belegian, French, Swedish, Oldenburg (either or) Hannoverian, Holsteiner, Trakhener RPSI, Amwerican Warmblood, Society and association....
And all with a fraction of the horsepopulation any given registry has in the place of origin...

No marketing strategy and no support from the NGB - and forget the government.

(Higher $$$ in training and upbringing have been mentioned a billion times...so I am not going to add it here, though it is part of the picture.

(More thoughts to follow...)

carosello

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
DID the Verband office also offer you video of American bred mares?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I mentioned we did look at what was available in the US and the office had no other prospects for us to look at.

Personally I have found the office(s) a valuable tool in looking for horses and advertising what I have here.

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:12 AM

Interesting answer, but you didn’t actually answer my simple question: Did the Verband office offer you video of American bred mares?

wanderlust

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:

Aren’t you being a bit harsh here… how about alittle tolerance? Readers here can distinguish between an ASB and say… the Celle Stallions, the PSI Auction Horses (or whatever one’s standards of Warmblood excellence are) … and so what if SERAPH is pushing a stallion? A hundred other posters are doing exactly the same thing … you have to weed through it from time to time… would it kill you to just politely ignore the self / breed promotion? And as for hijacking the thread… several posters have taken this thread off in different directions… and it’s been valuable, informative conversation… so what’s the harm?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right Cartier, please forgive me. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif There are several others of the same flavor who I chuckle at and ignore or just skip past, and I will add *SERAPH* to that list.

Since I have nothing to contribute to this thread that hasn't already been said (quality, reasonably-priced animals in the US are too few and too far between geographically), I'll go troll elsewhere.

Norsire

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:22 AM

Cartier, I have to disagree with you on this one...<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Just like in a real estate transaction, even though the seller writes the commission check, the commission was factored into the sales price… so the purchaser is paying whether or not they actually write the check. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When I list a townhouse for 100,000.00, the seller does not add in 6,000.00 to make the price 106,000.00. If, all the townhouses are the same model, block, neigbhorhood and the seller wants to add the commision in, he/she woudl never seller his/her townhouse when all others are selling for 100k even. And if I am listing the house and then bring the buyer as well, I get both sides of the deal, as I have done work on both sides to get my commission on both sides for both clients. If, the buyer is brought on my another agent and works with the buyer, then they get their side of the deal. But, I'm sure you will not agree with this, but that is the way it is done in real estate and it is regulated by many, many, many, laws to keep it all fair and legal. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

carosello

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
Interesting answer, but you didn’t actually answer my simple question: Did the Verband office offer you video of American bred mares?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I am very capable of calling for my own videos here and as I mentioned before people were slow, didnt want to sell or didnt respond not to mention some were just too dang expensive. We did persue US horses first with the offices help. Who wants to go thru the hassle we did which lasted 2+ years just to get them here.

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:30 AM

Sonia,
I think the point is that the Verband supports and helps to market German bred horses in a way the American breeder's do not enjoy

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by STF:
Ok....but my question as a breeder is why can we suceed now here in the US?? (Im talking breeding, not training)!

We import the best mares....and we can get semen shipped in from all over the world?!?! Right???

We have the Embryo Trasfer option too!

What is stopping us (other than funds) to getting a good breeding program going here in the states?!?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at Carosello's post. That's part of the problem... breeders get something good, and keep it for themselves. As, quite frankly, I would too (although I'm not a breeder.)

Tracking down what I'm looking for is TOUGH and requires a LOT of hours.

The adventure has begun...
KT

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:33 AM

Norsire, the bottom line is that an agent’s commission is reflected in the price paid, which is why purchasing directly from the seller can be a cheaper way to purchase.

Moreover, to be a Real Estate Agent you must be licensed, you must report and pay taxes on your income and some state agency monitors your conduct. Apparently the agents who post here and/or agents we're discussing here, are not encumbered by any such restrictions.

carosello

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
Sonia,
I think the point is that the Verband supports and helps to market German bred horses in a way the American breeder's do not enjoy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I sold my 2003 colt inutero with the help of the Verband. I do not think they are only helping to market only those horses in Germany. Now this has gone way OT.

Yes Oldenburg Mom...I found that so true...if you have a good broodmare she is not for sale or not cheap. I always believe a horse has a price but I also would price my mare high as it would take alot to replace her and right now I cannot afford to do that!

STF

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:47 AM

Oldenburg Mom....
Well, thats it!! See, I think we have all the oppertunity to start great breeding here.....with the AI and ET...plus importing top bloodlies.....its there!!!

We just have to start it.....

Canaan Ranch (www.breedwithclass (http://www.breedwithclass)) who is about 3 hours from me was bringing in some REALLY nice bloodlines....good imported mares, etc. Just wonderful stuff. We have Judy Yancy in Florida who has some nice mares she breeds and frozen semen coming in too! She has some nice imported babies with great GOV bloodlines too.....
Heike (GW Ranch) has some stop stallions too in Frozen and Fresh!

I think the US could start doing better if we got on a breeding plan (business plan).....

http://www.spindletopfarms.com

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:49 AM

Actually Sonia, I think this is DEAD on TRACK… the track being why American breeders have difficulty being competitive in this market place and why buyers go to Germany. And in that context, why should breeders in this discussion ignore the Verband’s huge marketing bias in favor of German Breeders. That’s like ignoring the elephant in the living room

carosello

Jul. 29, 2003, 09:10 AM

STF your link didnt work but its
www.breedwithclass.com (http://www.breedwithclass.com)
I simply love the Sion/Contender bloodline but at $80,000 that is way out of my league!

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 29, 2003, 09:38 AM

Carosello and STF ...

So ... what does one do?

Here I am with cash in my pocket facing an uphill struggle to buy domestically.

AND, I'll make the effort ... to a point.

But come Jan/Feb, if nothing has caught my eye... if I've looked and looked and can't find, either by word of mouth or website. Yup, I'll join the list of people searching for a cheap flight over the pond.

AND YOU CAN'T BLAME ME EITHER. Look, I'm trying to do what I want to do with horses.. I'm not 20 years old with a seven figure budget. I'm 52 with a VERY LOW 5 figure budget.

As far as the Verband's office here ... well, I just can't say enough nice things about them. They have been pleasant, professional and always willing to lend a helping hand. And have been extraordinarily supportive of the American Breeder. They will be a first stop.

Guys,... aren't any of you out there making the connection? We can bicker until we're purple in the face and it won't change a thing.

IF breeders want to compete they've got to come up with (IMVVVHO) a central place to list sales. Especially of babies (that's just for me!!!) But a central subscription-based website would be a great start. And it needs to be kept CURRENT.

Opinions...???

The adventure has begun...
KT

Delyth

Jul. 29, 2003, 09:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
And in that context, why should breeders in this discussion ignore the Verband’s huge marketing bias in favor of German Breeders. That’s like ignoring the elephant in the living room<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would a Verband in Germany be marketing and sending out video tapes of American-bred horses?

And before you say the American Verbands don't market youngsters, take a look at their websites - they DO offer a place for breeders to market and advertise.

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 09:50 AM

What American Verband? Holly is an employee of the GOV… as is Evelin. And we've heard of breeders who are out of favor (for whatever reason) waiting months and months to be listed on that website.

ise@ssl

Jul. 29, 2003, 09:50 AM

OK - Oldenburg Mom - what are you looking for? And which breeders have you contacted? Which part of the country are you located and/or how far will you travel (you are willing to fly to Europe). As I stated way earlier in this thread the ISR/OLDNA publishes the scores of all foals in their Breeding Guide - cost $15.00. You can see the entire crop for that year and isolate the bloodlines & top scorers. Some breeders (I do) pay to have a Farm listing on the For Sale BB on www.isroldenburg.org (http://www.isroldenburg.org). If I don't have what you are looking for I can refer you to other breeders in my area - actually I call them for customers to find out what they have if someone wants to come to our area to look at more than one farm.

As to the other comments that we need to get a business plan! Gee! If you don't feel there are HUNDREDS of breeders in the US breeding various warmblood breeds with top bloodlines - then I can't help you.

There are warmblood breeders in this country who have been bringing in top mares for over 25 years. Many of these mares have daughters here and they have daughters ...etc. They also brought in stallions and frozen semen or mares with foals in utero. The comments you make are IMHO out of date. Some people who started this effort are now retiring - so they were at it for decades.

Perhaps perception and reality are two very different things.

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jul. 29, 2003 at 02:19 PM.]

Jasmine

Jul. 29, 2003, 09:56 AM

Have you tried the Midwest Breeders Group? They seem to be doing some/most of the things you state you want. The website is great, and they promote very nice stallions and foals out of very nice mares. I don't know if these breeders would be close enough for you, but the website is http://www.breedersgroup.com if you want to check it out. Good luck with your search!

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

Delyth

Jul. 29, 2003, 10:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
What American Verband? Holly is an employee of the GOV… as is Evelin. And we've heard of breeders who are out of favor (for whatever reason) waiting months and months to be listed on that website.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In five minutes of research, I found sales lists on the Holsteiner, Hanoverian, and RPSI sites. Now, if the GOV has no sales list on their official site, that's an issue you should bring up with your registry :P

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 10:15 AM

There is a significant difference between having a Sales Board on a website and offering potential purchasers a video of a given group of horses. Taking the time to compose and distribute a video gives a huge impression of endorsement which a simple website listing does not. Sonia claimed that she purchased her mare from a video supplied by the Verband (specifically the GOV). The GOV in this country is one woman, Holly Simensen, and one woman in Germany, Evelin Vollstedt. I think that it's fair to say the majority of their recommendations are for German bred horses. I don’t recall them ever offering a video of American bred horses for buyers to peruse. Sonia tried to imply that they had, then backed away and advanced her theory that American breeders do not respond and/or can not get videos in the mail (both of which we have not found to be true.)

siegi b.

Jul. 29, 2003, 10:25 AM

Cartier - add the NA/WPN and ATA to Delyth's list of sites with sales lists.
Again, I have to agree with ISE@SSL - there are lots of successful breeders in the United States (and have been for years). It's amazing that people are willing to do the research to find horses in Europe but expect to be handed that information when it comes to domestic products.
Oldenburg Mom - I'll say it one more time... go visit the inspection sites of the breed you're interested in and then tell me that you didn't find any good prospects (and in decent numbers, too). Heck, since you're willing to travel to Europe, why don't you travel to the two biggest inspection locations here (I am sure the breed registry will only be too happy to tell you where they are), and you'll be able to see lots and lots of horses that fit your criteria.

Tiki

Jul. 29, 2003, 10:34 AM

ISR/OLNA also has a sales list on their web site. Hilltop Farm just had their ISR/OLNA and Hanoverian inspections. They draw the best foals on the east coast to a gorgeous facility with very good spectator areas anf open stables to talk to breeders and owners. Iron Spring Farm is holding a Dutch Warmblood inspection in September that should be of the same quality. I'm sure there are many, many more really good inspection sites elsewhere in the country - Oldenburg Farm, others on the west coast and Florida that I'm not familiar with. Here you get to see the foals all dressed up and get to hear the scores and the inspectors comments, and have lots of foals to compare side by side -especially in the Premium call back rings - the best of the best for that day.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

*SERAPH*

Jul. 29, 2003, 10:35 AM

Cartier--

Sounds like, in theory, a fairly simple solution. The beginnings of a breeders' co-op. Regional breeders of warmbloods and sporthorses need to set aside their competitiveness with each other and get together and combine dollars to put their own sales video together. Work the scedule for filming out. Example...start the 'Southern Warmblood/Sporthorse Breeders Alliance".Take out an ad in the COTH, pointing people toward literature (pamplets made up with farm listings/breeders, numbers of fine, quality horses buyers could see at any given time,and from this level to that level et), also the ad should list a web address and there should be a website where people can see listings et.

That would be powerhouse marketing, imho. The other aspects, such as hiring a shared trainer(s) of young horses (more than likely free-lance at first) could come in time. And then on from there. Makes since to me...

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 10:36 AM

Seigi,

Thanks for the info on the availability of Sales Boards on registry websites (which we’ve had bookmarked for years now). However, the point is really about the product of one group of breeders being implicitly or expressly endorsed more readily than the product of another other group of breeders. This endorsement has some impact on marketability, be it great or small.

I really can’t buy an argument that it’s okay to endorse the product of one group of breeders and not the other in this instance because (as has been pointed out by others), these registry personal have been guiding American breeders for roughly 20 years or 5-6 equine generations… that’s more than long enough. Either their advice is worth something and our product is competitive or we need better advisors.

ise@ssl

Jul. 29, 2003, 10:44 AM

Oh and I'll be dead honest - the reason we don't spend the big bucks to take youngsters to Dressage at Devon Breed Show is because there are never any buyers there!!!! It always amazes me that more buyers don't go to the breed shows looking for prospects. I mean ribbons are nice but SELLING is better! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif If we had the rows of buyers at DAD that the Germans have at their big inspections - we'd hire a big rig to take most of the farm down for a few days. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 10:47 AM

For those like Tiki and Seigi who have said, “Go to Inspections” I agree completely. Go to as many as possible, see as much as possible... the good and the not-so-good... and leave your wallet locked in the car, ‘cause you’re gonna be tempted to buy bloodlines you never considered. There is just something about a leggy elegant foal with the candy -cane neck and smooth elastic movement which is very difficult to resist.

alexandra

Jul. 29, 2003, 10:57 AM

Cartier I have a question, because I did not get it completely: (maybe translation) I understand you are breeding horses. With what registry are you registering them ?
I know it is off-topic, but I am interested to understand you a bit better.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 11:27 AM

Alexandra,
We are not aligned with any registry. We have horses inspected and approved by both the GOV and the ISR/Old NA. Our 2003 and 2004 foals will be presented to the ISR/Old NA. I can't say yet about our 2005 foals. We are looking at a Hanoverian mare whom we’d import so she'd be presented to the AHS and other registries as we see fit. AS for trying to understand me better, I'm a member of the DAR and a liberal Democrat who can remember where I was the day Kennedy was shot…does that help? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Elaine

[This message was edited by Cartier on Jul. 29, 2003 at 03:37 PM.]

mbp

Jul. 29, 2003, 11:34 AM

Several points.

Re: Agents. A true commission is set by agreement. Buyers need to ask how this will be handled and they need to determine to whom their agent's loyalties run. WHen you are talking about a US agent taking clients overseas, then it is very typical for them to pay the agent a fee - but that fee is not always a commission. Sometimes it is in the nature of a per diem. Often, you will have TWO SETS of agents when US buyers go overseas. Their US contact, who will then have a contact overseas. The overseas contact is often more in the nature of a seller's agent and will get paid by the sellers, but the US rep who is taking off days, flying over, etc. is more in the nature of a buyer's rep and is paid by the buyer.

I have a friend who just finished a sales trip. She sat down and talked out the commission situationwith her US trainer. She was in a good position, in that the trainer was looking for herself, and was tacking on some clients to her trip. They clients helped with trip expenses, but did not pay a commission, but they were all willing to and would have. Once they got to Holland, the US trainer had two primary contacts. They clients knew that those guys would be getting either a commission, or would be "purchasing" the horse from the seller and reselling to them and that the prices they were being quoted would not have any other fees added. As a matter of fact, their trainer sat down with the clients and the contacts and they all discussed exactly what would be involved with shipping, insurance, vetting, stabling and/or training for the horses prior to shipping, etc.

One contact primarily showed horses that they owned or co-owned. The other contact showed those first, then took the clients and trainer to several other stables. In a little less than 3 full days, they saw over 60 horses fitting the various requirements. A few of the horses at the other stables got on the the possibles list, but several were not well ridden or shown. The overseas contact had those horses hauled back to his stable, and his rider (who had gone with the trainer and clients to look at the horses and knew what to expect) got on and showed the horses to better effect.

It is VERY POSSIBLE that the overseas contact bought some of these horses from the sellers and resold to the clients at what would be a much higher mark up than a standard 10% commission. My friend was a little concerned over this, but to be honest, after MONTHS AND MONTHS of looking, she finally found some things she liked at the price she wanted to pay. In the end, what does it matter to her if someone made a bigger than 10% mark? Whatever their mark, she would not have been able to make arrangements on her own to see those horses and she had seen quite a few here for the same $$ that she had not liked. So if it is a horse she likes in her price range, is it worth LESS than the horses she saw that she didn't like that were priced higher here? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I am very pushy about commission arrangements as far as getting it spelled out exactly who is getting what, who is doing what. But in the end, if someone else's actions get me the horse I WANT a the price I WANT to pay, then what they take home does not bother me much. If the seller is unhappy that the contact bought their horse and then turned around and immediately sold it for more - well, what $$$ has the seller invested in developing sales contacts, a facility to show off the horses, a staff who speak the language, a website, yada yada.

Of course there are shysters and low lifes. The resale of a horse known to be lame, or a dangerous but drugged horse to an ammy rider, etc - those things will make me get out the shotgun http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But resales in general or double dip commissions don't bother me bc I know what I want and what bottom line I am willing to pay.

Re: Sales sites, etc. Yes a buyer can "research" and get the info, but we really still don't make it super ez for them. I don't agree that buyers are willing to do the research to buy overseas, but not here. A lot of the research gets done for them overseas.

If, for example, someone wanted to look at 2 yos or the like in this area, there is not way ONE registry site would give them any idea of what is available here. Or TWO. Or THREE. See? Sure, some buyers may ONLY want an AHA horse, or a GOV horse, or a OLD/NA horse - but NOT MANY. They want to see the horses that fit their age and $ criteria in the geographic area (the horse my friend bought from Holland we have now discovered is Bavarian - another client bought a young Kennedy stallion, a mare coming over is almost all Holsteiner lines, etc.).

We need to try to have some standardized formatting of sales lists (this is a big part of what makes sites like dreamhorse so popular) and we need to have regional lists. The - so and so has Arabs or Morganx or AWS etc. and *WE* (the notsoroyal WE) don't think those are sporthorses - cr*p needs to get tabled in order to generate sales lists. Let the buyer decide what THEY want to see, not what other breeders in the area have preselected as being the only "real" sporthorse prospects. Most buyers are perfectly capable of sifting through a sales list that is indexed by geographic location and $, and requires sex, height, breeding, contact info, etc., and deciding whether they want to take a look at the MorganXHann cross while they are there. They don't need to be "protected" and the registries can do whatever they want or need to insure what they want on breeding goals, but the LOCAL BREEDERS AND SELLERS HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER. Like the old snake in 13 pieces - either work together or fall separately.

BTW - a structured system of local breeding groups would be FAR more likely to be able to get some type of govt support than the system we have now, with such scattered registry issues, structures and background. I would bet that regionalized breeders groups could be structured similar to 4-H type associations and possible work with/through extension offices for support on clinics, auctions, etc. via Smith-Lever funds or something like that. I might be very wrong on that, but I see it as a much more workable approach than telling a buyer to research sales lists on 20 or so registries, many of which are not formatted for the info they buyer wants/needs and then deal with inter-registry jealousies when trying to schedule trips to look at prospects.

I think all of that may have come out more vehement than I meant it, but I don't have time to redo it so I'll just take the flak.

PS - Kareen, the woman in question is a professional here now and she pretty much has learned that appearances make more of a difference here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif She is getting pretty successful. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 29, 2003, 11:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Re: Sales sites, etc. Yes a buyer can "research" and get the info, but we really still don't make it super ez for them. I don't agree that buyers are willing to do the research to buy overseas, but not here. A lot of the research gets done for them overseas.

If, for example, someone wanted to look at 2 yos or the like in this area, there is not way ONE registry site would give them any idea of what is available here. Or TWO. Or THREE. See? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bravo mbp. Hit the nail square on the head.

And what am I looking for ... well, yes, I'm very specific. I want an Oldenburg GOV registered/registerable baby. I like 'em. Don't ask my why. I just do.

The midwest breeders group is a GREAT start, IMHO. And if you look at their site, it's easy to navigate. This isn't brain surgery, folks. Post a description/breeding and a snap. BIG DEAL.

The only question I have ... why are some prices "hidden", e.g., price upon request. I don't want to waste my time - nor yours. Just tell what you looking for... $$$s wise.

The adventure has begun...
KT

STF

Jul. 29, 2003, 12:00 PM

Well until America can produce the quality, then buyers will go to Europe to buy....and I cant blame them!!!

But....from a business point of view....its about getting the word out....! Its all about advertising right????

The way I find a stallion is I start at the registry websites and go through stallions that are approved for breeding...

And the thing is:
We DO have some nice imported stallions here in the states! Yet, its limited.....and its hurting us! So....what are our options?

We:

1) Import
2) Breed
3) Breed via imported semen to produce breeding stock

The key there is bringing in quality stock and really breeding to produce MORE quality stock!! Americans have to stop breeding...."Ol Miss Besty" out in the pasture trying to improve her with a quality stallion!!!

If we dont improve our "product" (horses, mostly mares) we will never have quality here in the states!!!

That, I think, needs to be our goal!!

http://www.spindletopfarms.com

Joanne

Jul. 29, 2003, 01:08 PM

This is one reason why a buyer might go to Europe for a foal. I just got a fare watcher saying roundtrip to Germany about $350.00

http://servlet.vit.de/servlet/pfauktion.pfliste/liste?id=1081

siegi b.

Jul. 29, 2003, 01:11 PM

STF - I think this has been mentioned time and again.... we do have quality breeding operations in this country. Maybe you haven't been looking, but I could probably rattle off 20 breeding farms with excellent mare lines and quality stock without even looking at the internet.
The ol' Betsy breeders will always be around, but you will find them in any country.
Mbp - You'd be amazed at how many people are quite breed specific when looking for horses, here or in Europe. As much as Oldenburg Mom agreed with you, she was the first one to say that she's looking for a GOV horse. I agree that it shouldn't make a difference when it comes to performance, but some customers have experiences with certain bloodlines and want to duplicate or avoid that.
I think the regional concept could work, and I agree that it shouldn't really matter whether it's a "pure" warmblood or a cross that is being listed. These regional organizations could have informal "show" days at different farms throughout the year and publish show dates to draw spectators/potential customers. Add some refreshments and breeders literature/videos, and it would even be fun.

mbp

Jul. 29, 2003, 01:28 PM

I do agree with you that some buyers (mostly of foals or breeding stock in my personal experience with US buyers to date) do want certain bloodlines. But I think one thing that has happened with the mishmash of registries is that here, even more so than in Europe, the bloodlines you are looking for may be in an odd assortment of registries. Many breeders have their mares approvedinto more than one registry and most stallions are approved for multiple registries.

In connection with some of my prior posts, I think that a lot of riders want 2+ yo and a lot of them don't care about the breeding (yes, I think they should, but only a few seem to) but really want to see the going horse and they want to see them in one location. For example, the trainer who just recently came back from buying 5 competition horses, they could have cared less about the breeding. And although in Holland, they came back with some non-dutch horses (like my friend's Bavarian).

But definitely foals and breeding stock have a much more significant emphasis on registry / bloodlines, and for some riders who are more experienced with bloodlines, the registry might be very important too. I have had to BEAT it into some friends looking at mares as riding horses to get all the information on registry, approvals, etc. before the purchase and not to just rely on the fact that a horse is "registered" and so they can no doubt breed her if something happens. When they ask, so often they find the mares have not been to approvals, only have CPs, etc. They may still want to buy, but they need to know the ramifications and often they don't.

ise@ssl

Jul. 29, 2003, 01:34 PM

STF - you say "until we can breed the quality" but then you state that you are a breeder - importing mares, using frozen semen from Europe, etc. Well your website says you started 3 years ago. I'm not sure how many inspections, breed shows, etc. you've been to, but here in the Mid-Atlantic region we have many, many breeders, (small, medium,large; some with some without stallions) who have been at this for decades. The quality IS HERE and I'm not quite sure why you keep saying we are all in the starting block or wandering around in the parking lot!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Perhaps what you will come to realize as you keep breeding is that the horses we breed really don't start to be noticeable in the performance world for about 7 years. Sure they may compete before that but lower levels in any discipline don't get much press coverage or magazine covers or even photos w/show reports. We now have horses that are in the 8-12 range that are doing very well with their owners and we know many other breeders who are ahead of us with the horses they've bred.

You seem to want to slap the US breeders around as though we are difficult and stubborn or avoiding what we need to do. Most of us have gone to Europe, we know pedigrees, we've been to breeding seminars and we've networked with other breeders all over the country on what works, what doesn't. I've hosted ISR/OLDNA inspections for 8 years and can tell you WE ARE GETTING STRONG IN OUR US BRED MARE BASE. The fillies that we have produced are now of breeding age and are of better quality than their dams. And the are producing. One of my TB mares is now 19. She produced 5 out of 6 premiums. All of riding age are under saddle and doing very well. (The non-premium BTW is 4th level champion in Bermuda). The two fillies she produced are here on the farm. The older one has produced two foals - both premium - her 2nd a colt by Pablito scored all 8.5's. Her 1st foal by Donnerwerth will not be sold - she will be bred next year.

I know many other breeders who are now breeding the 2nd & 3rd generation from their own breeding programs with huge success. But I also know several who have decided to pack it in - because comments made on BB's that we are not producing quality just kills our sales and quite honestly - it's just so upsetting to have someone make such a sweeping and incorrect statement. I've been at this 15 years. It's a killer business. It will - as someone told me years ago - teach you humility. It knows no time, no season, no holidays and doesn't care what else you have planned in your life. It can break your heart and warm your heart all in the same day. Not for the faint hearted. So for those of us who toughed it out - it's a bit of a rap on the head to hear remarks that might lead an uninformed reader to think we just fell off the turnip truck. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

And it's frankly almost impossible to KNOW who bred that performance horse out there. Without an ID system that REQUIRES the identity of the breeder - how does anyone know. Facts are facts, but a conclusion based on no informatin is just conjecture.

*SERAPH*

Jul. 29, 2003, 01:50 PM

mbp and siegi b--

I concur 100%. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

*SERAPH*

Jul. 29, 2003, 01:53 PM

ise@ssl--

Again, I concur 100%. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

STF

Jul. 29, 2003, 03:16 PM

ise@ssl,

We started our OWN NEW farm in 2000, but I have been in the horse/breeding industry for many years now....

I just started our own instead of working for someone else!

We are still in the process of importing mares for breeding and I have some very nice TB mares....but I know to be highly competitive I have to bring in the bloodlines....

The TB crosses will only get me so far! After I get the mares in (I WANT a Sandro Hit mare BADDDDD).....I will be able to offer the same as what people are leaving for Germany for!!

If its offered here....why have to leave the states?!?

http://www.spindletopfarms.com

Tiki

Jul. 29, 2003, 03:24 PM

I started out about 10 years ago with a really well bred, classic, TB foundation mare. She has give me Premium foals and now 2 of her daughters, that I kept, have give me a couple of Premium foals each. The most recent is a colt by Bugatti who scored 8.8s across the board for conformation, type and movement. I have made tremendous progress from my startup in the ensuing 10 years, and my 2nd generation foal made colt champion and site champion at his inspection. I did this by careful study of bloodlines, conformation, movement, performance records and how the stallions out there crossed with the type of mares I now have - a combination of classic TB lines and inspected, registered and approved WB/TB crosses. I now have TBs, 1/2 TB/1/2 WB and 1/4TB/3/4WB with many Premiums. I am a long way from breeding 'crap'.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

STF

Jul. 29, 2003, 03:39 PM

Tiki...
Im not sure if that was towards my post or not, but I will respond! I am not saying you are breeding CRAP! Im not saying the states has crap!! I dont know you...or anything about you!!

Yes...the US does have some nice horses!

But....THE FACT IS we have a lot of American money buying horses from Germany for the bloodlines! So....my plan is to bring in those bloodlines....its a business deal, nothing more!!!

I want the full bloodlines that can stand up in the GOV inspections and get noticed!!! I have friends that buy horses unseen based upon bloodline and business relationships!

Why....mostly because of the bloodlines!!!

http://www.spindletopfarms.com

Cartier

Jul. 29, 2003, 03:57 PM

Thanks for the clarification of your point. Like Tiki, I too was a bit confused by what you meant.

STF

Jul. 29, 2003, 04:06 PM

No, dont ever think I am bashing the industry.....Im not!!! Guys, Im part of the indusrty who is breeding TB's too....so I am hoping for the best!! I just think bringing over well bred Oldenburg mares would be smarter on my end and for business!
And mostly dont think I am bashing people! I am not that way....I dont try to hurt people with words! Not me.....even if I have an opinion on things!

I think there are ways to improve...yes, but that is in everything aspect of life, IMO!

Do you think I am wrong for wanting to import mares over?!?

http://www.spindletopfarms.com

Tiki

Jul. 29, 2003, 05:48 PM

No STF my post wasn't directed at you, but rather at the general attitude that Americans don't know what they are doing and (again, not getting personal or responding to a particular post) breeding Old Betsy to the stud down the road. Obviously a lot of that does go on in this country, but most of the breeders who take the time and energy and expense to go to inspections and have their foals inspected, approved and registered are getting better and better all the time. The ISR/OLNA raised the score needed for a foal to make Premium because we were getting so good. The only award 20-25% of foals Premium and the way we were going it would soon have been up to 50%. Now foals have to be so much better than even 3 or 4 years ago to get Premium it's amazing.

I do have a problem with all the TB bashing that goes on in this country. Again, addressing no one in particular, but STF, you happened to remind me of this by your statement that 'your TB crosses could could only get you so far'. If you're talking about the 'modern' TB, bred for sprinting, I agree that most of them are not sport horse types and do not cross well with WB stallions for sport horses. The classic lines, though, are wonderful for WB crosses. We do have some wonderful lines and horses in this country. I've checked my mares bloodlines against the TB lines in the German studbooks and I have most of those lines. Some of the best stallions in Europe have up to, or even more than, 50% TB in them. Ulf Moeller, one of the best young horse trainers in Germany, told us about a wonderful 5 yo, I think it was, that he just loved. Said it was one of the best young horses he'd ever seen or ridden and was raving about how wonderful it was and that it was 1/2 TB. Some of the best sport horse sires were TBs. And YES, before anyone starts ranting, you DO see them on the bottom as well!

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

Ashemont

Jul. 29, 2003, 08:52 PM

We started with our Premium Oldenburg mares almost 20 years ago and have built from there... so STF I think we are already well ahead of where you are PLANNING to be and yet you criticize (?). We've been hosting Keurings for almost as long and we are now consistently producing Premium foals plus we have produced two licensed stallions and a 3rd who should get his initial license this year. We've seen our stock EXported to Germany and we're certainly not alone.

This all just seems to keep going round and round. There are many established small breeders who have been producing the same quality as the Germans for many years... so those of you beginning your programs instead of going to Germany for a good filly why don't you save yourself the trip? They DO already exist here in the the US. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And again I'd like to mention the North Carolina Warmblood Breeders group. We've all been in the business for many years and we have literally hundreds of quality warmbloods for sale. We also have stallion with the very best bloodlines. I'll be happy to send our sales list to any who are interested... and our website is just about ready!

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

Cartier

Jul. 30, 2003, 01:49 AM

Pat,
Could you send us a North Carolina Warmblood Breeders Group Sales List? I’ve emailed you our address (check your PT’s). Thanks.
E

ise@ssl

Jul. 30, 2003, 03:38 AM

STF -
I feel it's important for you to understand that your "simple formula" of buying States Premium mares and breeding them with frozen semen from top stallions - needs to be presented to the readers in a clear perspective and more detailed timeline.

1. Purchasing States Premium Mares right now is a "Filene's Basement" of shopping. The prices for horses selling at the auctions (including the Elite) are published. It's at record lows for what most of us have known over the past few decades. And they are over-horsed in Europe. Their economies are worse than ours and they are much more willing to sell at lower prices.
2. Years ago the Germans and Dutch were very reluctant to allow their top mares out of the country at less than record prices.
3. The quality and use of frozen semen was not what it is today. Technology has taken giant leaps forward, as has the willingness of breeders to consider this route.
4. Most European stallions had never had their semen frozen for anything but the Celle or State Studs and they WOULD NOT SELL IT TO US.
5. The Quality of frozen semen from Europe was known to be pretty lousy up until the past ...say five years.. and there was the issue of EVA.

I think for you to use the example of Canaan Ranch as a "blueprint" for what U.S. breeders should be doing is just not fair. Their website shows worldclass mares and lots of great things happening with ET and Frozen Semen. But for even the lay person following the Enron scandal - it's pretty obvious that the AVERAGE WARMBLOOD BREEDER in the U.S. does not have $+millions$ of dollars available to them from selling stock before the company tanked to spend in Europe. WOULD IF WE COULD FOR SURE! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But clearly not a typical situation.

What's that old saying? "How do you make money in the horse business?....Start with ALOT of money!!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I know from being involved that those who purchased States Premium Mares in Europe ...say 20 or more years ago - paid BIG BUCKS. And they often had to outbid German breeders - so they paid a premium. And people here had little knowledge of what that meant so selling foals here was not the same market place that it is now. It took them a long time to recover their initial investments. I know this from speaking to them.

Perhaps what you fail to give any credit to is the ability of the US Warmblood Breeder to take what was available to them and build on the breeding information that was available from the European system and progress at a very rapid pace.

I second the comment on good TB mares. BUT - it isn't just taking any TB mare that's available. I too will not use "sprinter" type TB's. IMHO the shoulder is too straight, they are usually built down hill and they push back and out when moving and dig and pull in front. The older distance runners rotate their shoulder through and really get under themselves. But they are harder to find. And in fact the US is losing many of the best lines that they bred due to the overwhelming emphasis on sprinters. (Why? They can run them younger and they can put more races together at the track which increases the # of times the players can bid). And by the way, my 2 TB mares have outproduced the warmblood mares I later purchased with respect to premium foals and offspring performance and fillies that would become my new crop of broodmares. And my two warmblood mares are Gaugin de Lully and Doruto mares respectively - not shabby bloodlines.

What it all comes down to is producing horses that U.S. riders can ride and compete in the various disciplines. And I feel very strongly if we KNEW the breeding and breeder of ALL the horses competing in all the disciplines - most are U.S. bred. Are all the top ones? NO. But lets be up front - Americans are known for being impatient and wanting to start mid way up the ranks and hit the top -oh say TOMORROW! Many of the people who have the time and money to be involved in Dressage started riding later in life and they REALLY don't want to train a horse - they want to BUY & SHOW a horse and ....(we hear this all the time)....WIN RIBBONS. So do these people go with trainers/agents, etc. to Europe ...YES. Because they can buy that well trained horse that won't buck or rear and has show experience or is a school master extraordinaire and probably have it at a show two weeks out of quarantine. It's like the "Quick Check" of horse buying.

We've hashed the training issue over and over and the cost of showing to put mileage on horses on this and other threads in depth. Our U.S. bred horses are coming up the ranks - most with Amateur Owners but they are coming. Problem is you need a crystal ball to know which ones they are. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And finally I don't agree that there is a simple formula. A business plan is great and a breeding plan is requisite - but the # of uncertainties in this business and the fact that it has HUGE fixed costs and is VERY market elastic - makes for a bumpy ride most of the time. Oversimplification of what will work and return a profit seems a bit remiss.

Tiki

Jul. 30, 2003, 05:55 AM

I just came up with an approximate cost of over $1000 to take 3 horses to Devon and enter them in 9 classes. That's with taking care of horses and stalls myself and braiding my own horses. I do have to hire a handler - I'm so old and decrepit it would probably take me a day and a half to make on lap around the ring!! That doesn't count the hotel ($100/day WITH a military discount), the gas, the tolls and the food. I'm not even sure I got all the expenses. And why am I doing this????? There probably will be only other breeders and maybe some of their friends and relative watching. We keep suggesting that buyers go to inspections and breed shows because they keep complaining that horses are too few and far between. Well, DAD is one of the biggest and most prestigious breed shows in the country, and YES there are horses under saddle in the breed show. You will see everything from 2 or 3 month old sucklings at mama's side to 4 year old and older mares and stallions under saddle in materiale classes, under saddle classes and dressage suitability classes. The suitability classes are usually so big they have to split the class. The horses are the cream of the crop, they are all spiffed up and polished, the competition is tremendous, you have the judges opinion, you can walk through the barns and talk to the breeders and owners and no buyers come!!

I can understand SOME buyer's reluctance to come to inspections as a huge percentage of buyers don't want to deal with foals, but breed shows have an awful lot to offer the buyer in this country - all at one place and time and under the best conditions.

The champion mare last year was one that the judge said was as good as any he'd seen in the brilliant ring in Germany. The reserve was sooooo close behind her he had to have had a very, very hard time choosing between them. The breeders - who are supposedly sooooo fractioned (is that a word?) in this country all sit in the stands and cheer each other on, and heartily congratulate every winner. Other breeders (who supposedly never talk to each other) have gone to other barns seeking owners and/or breeders of the winners to congratulate them. It's a wonderful atmosphere - Thank you Lori!!!!! - and I still don't understand why buyers don't go.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

STF

Jul. 30, 2003, 05:58 AM

Hey, settle down....all of you!!! Geezzeee....

Look, MY PLAN, AT MY FARM, WITH MY HORSES, is to import german mares with good bloodlines and breed those mares for quality foals. If I can find those bloodlines in the US, then I WILL BUY THEM HERE!!

As for the TB lines....I have got several emails off of the Vivaldi/TB cross where people wnat to put a down payment on the foal....(she is only a couple months prego)....so I am not saying the market is not there....it is!!!

Im just saying, I would like to bring in the bloodlines and breed them here!!

So....if those bloodlines are here, then the buyers wont need to go to so far to get them!

That is just MY plan.....and my thoughts!!!

I may only be able to buy one or two mares to import in per year, but it would be worth it in my opinion!!

Everyone keeps talking about inspections and how well their breeding foals are doing at inspections, yet they are not saying WHICH inspections these are?? Are these GOV inspections????

http://www.spindletopfarms.com

Tiki

Jul. 30, 2003, 06:27 AM

Import away, but don't whine here when buyers pass your horses over and go to Germany like you are so they can have the prestige of buying an import EVEN THOUGH THE BLOODLINES AND THE QUALITY ARE HERE. And the GOV isn't the only registry producing really good horses over here. Doesn't matter the registry, the BWP, the Swedish, the Dutch, the GOV, RPSI, some Westfalen, Hanoverian, the ISR/OLNA, Trakehner, Danis, Holsteiner are all now producing top quality foals.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

ise@ssl

Jul. 30, 2003, 06:37 AM

You will also see some pretty impressive mares. We have seen a HUGE improvement in the level of quality of mares presented at our inspections and at others. Are there some mares presented that should not be bred - yes! But it's a free country and we can't stop people from doing that. And I think it's important for people to know all the mares in Europe are not States Premium and all the colts are not stallion candidates and all the foals produced are not those in the catalogues for the auctions & sales. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Most of the registries have information on their inspections on their websites. You can always contact their offices if they don't.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 30, 2003, 07:03 AM

Tiki ...

Are you going to Devon? I want to look you up as I will be there for ONE class (provided I don't qualify) and I'm STILL going to go. And it's probably going to cost me around $500 (that's everything) so your figure of $1000 is probably pretty good.

And YES! This is important:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The horses are the cream of the crop, they are all spiffed up and polished, the competition is tremendous, you have the judges opinion, you can walk through the barns and talk to the breeders and owners and no buyers come!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, granted, I'm talking about one of the winners last year ... and I'm naming NO NAMES. But this particular baby is for sale for $90,000! And this baby has done NOTHING UNDER SADDLE.

Now, I'm not saying the breeders are nuts for setting the price so high. I hope they get their price. I honestly do.

But dear. I can't afford to buy a yearling for that kind of bucks, no matter HOW good. The only thing I can HOPE to do is to find a younger baby I think is as good.

And guess what that requires, all you people out there? It requires LOOKING AT A LOT.

Guess where they have a lot. Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Go ahead ... just guess.

MY POINT, and again, why I started this thread is ... duh! ... no wonder people are going to Germany.

As far as the breeders groups go, great idea. But I just popped over to Google, and typed in "North Carolina Warmblood Breeders Group" and while I saw many references, didn't see a specific site.

Hey guys, in case you haven't yet figured it out, .... is anyone listening .... I'M THE PERSON YOU ARE TRYING TO FIND. I'M A BUYER OF YOUNG STOCK. I WANT TO BUY AMERICAN. And, I'm going to take your baby, take him to the breed shows AND 'break' him, take him to under saddle shows, etc. etc. I'm your PERFECT client.

People should be beating my door down, GIVING me their perfect babies!!! (LOL)

Listen to what I'm saying ... IMVVVVVHO, you breeders need a SUBSCRIPTION BASED INTERNET NATIONAL SALES LIST with PRICES.

The adventure has begun...
KT

ise@ssl

Jul. 30, 2003, 07:11 AM

But Oldenburg MOM you've said you only want GOV horses so you should make that clear. We have 3 yearlings and one 2 yo for sale. All superior quality, all reasonably priced to qualified buyers. But is it worth our while to send you photos & information when they are OLD/NA branded and papered? There are other people reading this thread I'm sure who probably have youngsters of equal quality with yet other registries. And what discipline are you looking to compete in, size matter?, sex matter?. Youngster - doesn't really say what you want.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 30, 2003, 07:23 AM

ISE ...

just because that's what I want doesn't mean there aren't others out there ... just like me ... that will look for others (other registries.)

Plus, excuse me, there are many GOV breeders out there that I can't find, that I'm sure have LOVELY 2003 babies.

Let's put this in perspective. This is what you're expecting me...or anyone else... to do:

1. GO to a Verband site ... breed site, WHATEVER.
2. Go to their "contact" site ... which of course, will only be a fraction of the number of breeders out there in the US.
3. Contact each and every one .. tell them what I'm looking for.
4. Review their site (which as we ALL know, may be a chore) where *hopefully* they've got updated pictures of what they're selling.

Are you STARTING to get the picture? The Oldenburg Verband's site has 51 links. Say, 1/3 are not appropriate (e.g., Dressage Daily, etc.) That leaves 34 sites.

Is THIS becoming clearer?

Are you guys getting my drift? And again, I'm someone who WANTS to buy American. I'm really TRYING to buy American.

I'm not getting aggressive or hostile, etc. etc., but this is reality. This is what's involved.

And it doesn't make a lot of sense.

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. AND, guess what? "Youngster doesn't really say what you want ..." Oh yes it does. Discipline... dressage or h/j fine. Size: don't care. Sex: don't care. Yes, Youngster DOES say exactly what I want.

What's important to me? Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y. And I'm looking for outstanding quality. Period.

ise@ssl

Jul. 30, 2003, 07:57 AM

Well I can't speak to the GOV site - but I have a Farm listing on the ISR/OLDNA site. When I finish my website it will have a link. Sorry you won't look at anything but GOV horses - we have some nice ones.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 30, 2003, 08:12 AM

ISE ...

This isn't about GOV or any registry!

It's about the PROCESS. That's what the whole topic is about!

The adventure has begun...
KT

Tiki

Jul. 30, 2003, 08:17 AM

Oldenburg Mom, I will be easy to find. I will be in the Hilltop Farm barn, right by the entrance to the show grounds. I will have (probably) 3 horses there. The names are Hawthorne Rose, Honey and Berlioz, so you can find my stalls in that barn. I will definitely look forward to meeting you there and chatting with you. I will be there from approximately noon on Monday through at least noon on Thursday.

Sheila O'Keefe

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 30, 2003, 08:29 AM

Tiki/Sheila -

LOFF to meet you and really look forward to it!

You aren't going to be at PVDA by any chance, are you?

I'll be with Christine Quilling's group if I don't get to you first!

The adventure has begun...
KT

ise@ssl

Jul. 30, 2003, 09:42 AM

Just curious - you said it's easier to go to Europe. Well what website to do you go to to find the breeders there? Or does an Agent do this for you?

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 30, 2003, 09:59 AM

ISE -

FYI. Please re-read my original, opening comment with the quote by Sporthorse South.

That's the whole point of this thread, you see, the hoops that ALL US breeders, regardless of registry, must jump through in order to compete.

-------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
It's called choice.

On the thread titled "When do you decide to keep a colt as a stallion" started by equinemidwife, Sporthorse South brought up some statistics about Oldenburg numbers that I was completely unaware of ... here's her quote:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>My colt is staying in Germany, where colts have to be invited to the stallion approvals in November because of the large number of colts who are still intact and who still look like stallion prospects at 2 - 2-1/2 years of age. Some numbers - there are roughly 2500 Oldenburg colts born in Germany every year. Two years later, about 300 - 400 of these colts (along with some colts from other registries) will be presented to the Oldenburg stallion licensing commission during the pre-selection in October. Maybe 60 of these colts will be invited by the commission to attend the November approvals, and between 20 - 40 of those will be approved. As you can see, it is a highly selective process, with less than 2% of any particular year's colt crop actually making it to approved status.

By contrast, GOV might inspect 20 - 30 stallions from age 2-1/2 and up at North American inspections each year, so they don't have to be as restrictive here (i.e., stallions don't have to be "pre-selected" and "invited" to an official stallion inspection). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was in response to a question about being invited to a 3-yr old inspection, but it piqued my curiosity.

There has been a LOT of conversation regarding US breeders competing with what is being produced abroad. But heavens, with these kinds of numbers being produced over there, within a much smaller geographic area, is it surprising that buyers head over the pond?

This is NOT intended to be a provocative, argument-starting thread. But heck, folks. I'm starting to look for a new guy for next spring. And honestly, the idea of going somewhere with such a high concentration is appealing. That doesn't mean I'm going to do it ... I'm just posing the question.

What's your view?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The adventure has begun...
KT