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DownYonder
Feb. 1, 2010, 09:37 AM
Need ideas please - we are looking for a small, typey stallion who throws small typey foals with big dressage-y gaits. Mare is VERY tall, long backed and long necked, so she needs to be downsized and shortened up. Also needs more correctness in the front legs (she toes in a bit) and a better walk. She is probably not a candidate for frozen due to uterine clearance issues. Foal will be registered with Oldenburg (GOV).

Oakstable
Feb. 1, 2010, 09:47 AM
Check with Polly Limond who owns Lateran.

KatWil
Feb. 1, 2010, 09:51 AM
Have you looked at Kovington? I have a filly by him out of a 17hh TB mare. The filly is about 15.3 as a three year old and has very nice gaits. Really uses her hind well. Happy shopping!

DownYonder
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:01 AM
Thanks, neither Lateran or Kovington are approved for Oldenburg breeding (Lateran is approved by Weser-Ems, not Oldenburg).

YankeeLawyer
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:04 AM
What about Rapture R?

camohn
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:04 AM
Vinca is 15.3 H and Old (but ISR, not GOV....according to the website GOV is pending)
http://www.flowerfarmhorses.com/stallion.htm

Molly Malone
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:08 AM
Donarweiss

Kareen
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:11 AM
Wonderful.

DownYonder
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:17 AM
We already have Rapture R on the list to look into. Also Rubino Bellissimo and maybe Facet.

I will have to see if the breeding director would grant a breeding allowance for Vinca. Is he performance tested?

Donarweiss is not approved by Oldenburg so we would have to try get a breeding allowance for him, too. Wonderful is an interesting idea but not sure the owner will accept a Weltemeyer stallion.

Edited to add that I just looked at the Oldenburg roster and Wonderful was apparently not activated for 2010.

Oakstable
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:21 AM
Smaller stallions do not necessarily throw small.

If the mare owner wants a better chance at downsizing, why not go with a Weser Em?

De Laurentis downsized the mother of my Dior, but the resulting filly is not small and typey. She is a desirable size and will probably finish around 16.2.

Donarweiss is intriguing but what is he throwing with really big mares?

There are quite a few Trakehner stallions around 16.1h. Couldn't the mare owner pay the outside fee?

Iron Horse Farm
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:23 AM
Chris,

Howbout Rosenthal?

DownYonder
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:26 AM
Rosenthal is listed in the 2010 directory as 16.3, so he is probably too big for this mare. The owner will probably want a bigger mover, too.

sixpoundfarm
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:26 AM
If Hierarch is still breeding he might be a good thought.

Prince Optimus is a smaller guy, and I did register my foal GOV. They were very complementary of the fillies walk and very correct conformation.

Jessica Wisdom has what looks like a really nice up and coming Diamond Hit son, I think she intends to present him.

DownYonder
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:31 AM
Smaller stallions do not necessarily throw small.

If the mare owner wants a better chance at downsizing, why not go with a Weser Em?

De Laurentis downsized the mother of my Dior, but the resulting filly is not small and typey. She is a desirable size and will probably finish around 16.2.

Donarweiss is intriguing but what is he throwing with really big mares?

There are quite a few Trakehner stallions around 16.1h. Couldn't the mare owner pay the outside fee?

A Weser-Ems approved stallion will not allow the foal to be registered in the Oldenburg book - or so I was told once upon a time. I will have to check and see if that policy has changed.

The owner may be willing to pay a breeding allowance fee, but the stallion has to be pre-approved through the office.

We are also considering Dacaprio as I understand he often throws smaller foals. Davidoff Hit is another one we will look at - he is listed at 16.1, but is out of a Sandro Hit mare so may have some size behind him.

Iron Horse Farm
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:31 AM
Edited to add that I just looked at the Oldenburg roster and Wonderful was apparently not activated for 2010.

He is in the GOV stallion auction........thought that they had to be activated to do that?

Edgewood
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:31 AM
How about Royal Prince. He is not big, and I have seen some smaller horses by him (also some taller ones, but all very refined)

Royal Monaco
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:43 AM
Redwine is aproved GOV ans 16h1.

Don't know for the dressagy gaits though...

Signature
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:47 AM
Rolling Stone?

tuckawayfarm
Feb. 1, 2010, 10:54 AM
Regazzoni?

clint
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:02 AM
Benidetto? I know he himself is a smaller stallion.

Oakstable
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:08 AM
A friend of mine used Rapture R to try to downsize a big Hano mare and she got more size than she was hoping for.

Ask Violet re Rubino Bellisimo and Wonderful. Both are 16.1H, I think.

risingstarfarm
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:12 AM
Ditto the Benidetto suggestion.

DownYonder
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:13 AM
Well, here is the problem. Many of the stallions mentioned are “R” line, which means they are probably not big enough movers for this mare owner. The mare is herself a pretty good mover, but the goal is an FEI Y/H prospect, with true FEI down the road (hopefully even Grand Prix, and at a national level). So the foal needs big, elastic, expressive gaits, a good brain to handle the training, and strong hindleg. The R line stallions will no doubt give the rideability and trainability, but they often don’t have NATURAL big gaits. Most of the stallions that can give the gaits and the rideability/trainability are too big. We are basically looking for a little sports car type stallion with BIG gaits and proven ability to downsize. To make things even more complicated, the mare owner would really prefer a DARK foal. Mare is black bay but we don’t know if she is homozygous – might have to get her tested.

Benidetto is a good idea. I didn’t think of him before – will have to take a look at him. Why is it that most of the ones that are suitable are chestnut? :lol:

DownYonder
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:18 AM
He (Wonderful) is in the GOV stallion auction........thought that they had to be activated to do that?

We had him last year for the auction, but he is not in this year's auction.

acottongim
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:20 AM
Thanks, neither Lateran or Kovington are approved for Oldenburg breeding (Lateran is approved by Weser-Ems, not Oldenburg).

Kovington throws everything else the OP was asking for except the registery and he does not throw type. Lovely horse, great mover, dressage, etc, but not typey as even his owner admits. :) Your mare must be very typey and throw type for him.

clint
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:32 AM
Another thought is Dauphin. He is smaller, and I don't think he is throwing huge. My Dauphin filly, out of a decent sized mare who can produce big offspring, will be moderate size when she is all grown, I think. Although he isn't homozygous black, you at least have a chance for one. ;)

Oakstable
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:32 AM
Acottongim,
What do you mean Kovington does not throw type?

As far as the mare owner wanting a homozygous black stallion known to downsize a mare, there just aren't many of those.

Among the smaller stallions who might reduce some size are Heirarch and Facet. The linear scores on the stallions would show if they add size or reduce size.

Oakstable
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:33 AM
Deklan.

Super elegant.

Peg
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:47 AM
Another vote for Benidetto.

My filly is out of a 16.3 mare that needed to be lightened a bit and help her front legs.

Bellissima FDL is a sportscar filly! Great hind leg with lots of action, a strong wither that is free, although she doesn't show that often. Her canter is to die for, already sits and comes up in the front. She is shorter coupled with a beautiful neck. Her personality is sweet and is very smart and willing to trust and learn.

My mare is very beautiful and I can see elements of her in the filly, but all the same, she is similar to the ones in Europe. I was thinking at first that she would be tall, but I think she will be closer to 16 or 16.1 when finished. My website will be finished soon, she'll be in some video then.

I saw Benidetto when he was licensed and loved his movement. She moves like her Dad,

good luck! Peg

TrueColours
Feb. 1, 2010, 11:59 AM
What about Leonidas? I heard he was smaller and VERY elegant and typey ... and the 2 foals I have seen of his are exquisitely beautiful as well ...

JER
Feb. 1, 2010, 12:00 PM
Super Star (http://www.willowhillequestrian.com/stallions.php) (scroll down)

Super Star is 15.2hh. His offspring are similar in size.

I have a 5 year-old mare by Super Star (out of my TB mare). She's a monster mover and very pretty but the best thing about her is her brain. She's just really smart, very sensible and loves to work.

(She does not have her mother's temperament. At all.)

mbp
Feb. 1, 2010, 12:04 PM
I'm going to mention one who doesn't on his face seem to meet your requirements, but his foals that I have seen do - Juventus. The fillies (and all I've seen are fillies) by him that I have seen tend to be small, typey, big moving, gorgeous heads and red to darkish bay. The size might come from the Ulft and you'd want to explore more before going that direction, but he might be worth looking at and he was Old approved once upon a time.

I understand the wanting dark and foal flash, but if the ultimate goal is a smaller sized horse that is likely to do FEI, you could do a lot worse than the R line stallions recommended. I probably would try to push them towards the proven if you can.

On the Trak front, there are the two Gribaldi sons - Kougar (?) and ?, who are dark, but I don't know where you'd be on getting them approved Old. Several of the Mahagoni line traks will be smaller and bay and some of the Ramzes ones may be smaller but likely grey.

As well as Traks, another outside the box option might be to go with a Swedish stallion. Tip Top comes most directly to mind or maybe Bayron.

stripes
Feb. 1, 2010, 12:14 PM
I'm going to suggest Escudo II. I know most consider him to be of jumper bloodlines, but he is producing some awesome dressage horses bred to the right mares. My filly has amazing movement and was bred for the purpose of dressage. He is 16h and is definitely typy. I chose him after watching one of his sons working with my trainer. Beautiful, not too big, very very talented and everything came easy to him.

DownYonder
Feb. 1, 2010, 12:28 PM
Thanks for all your suggestions.

Dauphin – he is only available frozen
Deklan – I really liked what I saw of him in the video of his licensing, but he is listed at 16.2. He also did not finish the 70DT due to injury and I think the mare owner wants a stallion with permanent approval.
Leonidas – pensioned (no longer breeding)
Super Star – not Oldenburg approved (and probably not eligible for a breeding allowance)
Juventus – I had no idea he threw smaller foals. He is listed as 16.3h.
Gribaldi sons – not Oldenburg approved, not sure if they are eligible for a breeding allowance
Escudo II – mare has a yearling E2 and another one due in a few months; owner loves the yearling and is looking forward to the 2010 foal, but she wants to try something different next time around.
Heirarch - was told he is no longer breeding (?)

At the moment, we have the following on our list for a closer look:
Rubino Belissimo
Davidoff Hit
Benidetto
Rapture R
Facet

aquafarms
Feb. 1, 2010, 12:40 PM
Do you know what the eligibility for a breeding allowance is with the GOV

Thanks

Joe

retrofit
Feb. 1, 2010, 01:05 PM
At the moment, we have the following on our list for a closer look:
Rubino Belissimo
Davidoff Hit
Benidetto
Rapture R
Facet

What happened to Dacaprio?
And what about a Londonderry son, like Liberty Gold?

lilypondlane
Feb. 1, 2010, 01:15 PM
Would Hilltop's Popeye be too small? He's a 14.2 Westfalen pony -- incredible mover. He's approved ISR/Oldenburg NA.

Molly Malone
Feb. 1, 2010, 01:43 PM
Well if you're open to Gribaldi sons, Totilas is available frozen this year.

http://www.horses.nl/fokkerij/nieuws/13909/totilas-nu-al-beschikbaar-voor-fokkerij

DownYonder
Feb. 1, 2010, 02:04 PM
Do you know what the eligibility for a breeding allowance is with the GOV?

If you have a specific stallion in mind, you should probably contact the FL office, but what I was told in the past is that the stallion has to already be licensed by an acknowledged studbook with stallion approval requirements similar to Oldenburg’s (i.e., the German Verbands, KWPN, AHS, etc.), AND he has to have a performance record that would make him eligible for lifetime approval if he WAS to be presented to Oldenburg (either successful completion of at least a 70 DT, or a successful competition career at high levels).


What happened to Dacaprio?
And what about a Londonderry son, like Liberty Gold?

Thanks, I forgot to add Dacaprio. He is on our list.

Liberty Gold is listed as 16.2, plus I believe the mare owner will want to go with a stallion with a performance career.


Would Hilltop's Popeye be too small?

Popeye is not approved for Oldenburg breeding and is not eligible for an Oldenburg breeding allowance.


Well if you're open to Gribaldi sons, Totilas is available

Totilas is too big for this mare, plus she needs a stallion standing in North America.

Signature
Feb. 1, 2010, 02:08 PM
We have a Liberty Gold colt out of a small, 15.1h Swedish mare, and the colt is 16h and not even two years. QUITE tall. But lovely!!

How about Staccato? http://www.terraceiafarm.com/ When we saw him in person he was a very flashy mover and was not too big and was more modern/typey. Not sure about the temperament but he was well behaved during the expo demo. Also not sure about GOV, he is Old NA though...

I would say Donatelli, if he were only still around. Since she's not a candidate for frozen I guess that's a no go.

horsechica58
Feb. 1, 2010, 02:32 PM
I know Contester I doesn't quite fit the height requirement, he surely fits all of the others! I've seen offspring by him in person and every single one of them has been a gorgeous mover, very correct and typey looking. (Another good point is that he seems to throw dark-er foals! :D) Great dressage movers, and they don't seem to be overly tall.

mbp
Feb. 1, 2010, 02:44 PM
Re: Juventus - you'd want to do more homework, but I've been surprised at both the size of all the ones I've seen (all fillies/mares, but about 6 now) and the type. Years back at an inspection I had someone translating for me with one of the inspectors and we were talking about stallion suggestions for my mare - I like very typey and very modern for me, personally, but appreciate the bigger guys too - and the translator wasn't really a breeder/horse person. The inspector mentioned one stallion but said he might not throw the type I wanted because he was (per the translation) "pudgey" I'm kind of sure that's not really how what he said was meant to translate, but *g* I tend to use that word too much myself now, and so I'd say that Juventus is also a "pudgey" stallion, but his fillies/mare (two from tbs, the rest from asstd wmbld mares) I saw were not "pudgey" (although they all had apple butts) and it is based on those offspring more than your other parameters that I mention him.

I'll also add the Tip Top has, with limited breeding, thrown a son who was a lovely mover and lovely type and passed initial licensing with high type and movement scores, but was then gelded as he was purchased for a performance horse. He's not Old, but I can't imagine there would be a problem getting him approved as an outside stallion, but getting shipments of fresh with a competition schedule can be tough - Master and his progeny have made a lot of FEI horses though.

If you are going to look at Davidoff Hit, you might ask them about Wamberto (also not Old right now but may well be in the future) I know his sire, Rousseau, is quite large but it may be worth asking about him at 16.1.

I think in the end you'll be a bit like the realtors on an HGTV program I've seen, "Property Virgins" where as you show them the options, they may revise their list of "must" haves. Good luck.



I

YankeeLawyer
Feb. 1, 2010, 02:53 PM
Benidetto? I know he himself is a smaller stallion.

I was going to suggest Benidetto as I LOVE him and plan to use him myself but so far he has been throwing very leggy foals that look like they will finish tall - but they are rather short coupled (in a good way).

One thing I would worry about with a very long-backed mare if bred to a smaller stallion is the possibility of producing a short-legged and long-backed horse (as opposed to one downsized all over). So in that regard, Benidetto might be a great choice as I doubt you would have much risk of getting a stumpy legged kid but you may very well shorten up that back.

Regarding Vinca, he was performance tested the year Wamberto won. I have the same farrier so I remember the prep part. As I recall, that year all the participants received scores that were sufficiently high to be approved by the major WB registries.

NorCalDressage
Feb. 1, 2010, 03:36 PM
I know Contester I doesn't quite fit the height requirement, he surely fits all of the others! I've seen offspring by him in person and every single one of them has been a gorgeous mover, very correct and typey looking. (Another good point is that he seems to throw dark-er foals! :D) Great dressage movers, and they don't seem to be overly tall.

2nd this! I have been really impressed with his offspring!

He is listed at 16.3, the mare of his that did the FEI YH this year, Woodwind cannot be any bigger than 16. So maybe even though he is larger, does not throw that. Nice horse, check her out. He is GOV approved.

Also like DaCaprio for what you're looking for. He would be the front runner IMO, but he is chestnut.

The size requirement knocks a lot of potential stallion out.

I'm curious, seems that a bigger size would be more preferred for the YH comps? Is that not true? I mean, I know it's not supposed to matter to the judges, but....

camohn
Feb. 1, 2010, 04:15 PM
We already have Rapture R on the list to look into. Also Rubino Bellissimo and maybe Facet.

I will have to see if the breeding director would grant a breeding allowance for Vinca. Is he performance tested?

Donarweiss is not approved by Oldenburg so we would have to try get a breeding allowance for him, too. Wonderful is an interesting idea but not sure the owner will accept a Weltemeyer stallion.

Edited to add that I just looked at the Oldenburg roster and Wonderful was apparently not activated for 2010.

Vinca did attend/pass the testing.....not sure why his website has not been updated about a big fact like that from last year....

Cindy's Warmbloods
Feb. 1, 2010, 04:53 PM
What about Ridley? Or are you not considering ponies? I am not sure what he is passing on height wise since his pedigree is bigger but he is only 14.3HH.
http://fair-windsfarm.com/ridley.html

carrie_girl
Feb. 1, 2010, 05:00 PM
I am not a breeding guru by any means, but my childhood friend rides two of the stallions mentioned in this thread, Rubino Bellisimo and Contester (actually not sure if she still has the ride on him or not anymore). I have met both of them. Rubi is definitely small- he struck me as smaller than 16.1, and has an amazing work ethic. He is actually back in work and they are tentatively planning to campaign him at GP again this year. :) Contester is hands down the most beautiful horse I have ever met in real life and has a puppy dog personality. He did not strike me as that big of a horse, but I guess I am used to horses that are 16.2 or 16.3. I also noticed that there were a couple pics of one of his babies on the Tamarack Hill FB page-- beautiful horse!

Dressage_Diva333
Feb. 1, 2010, 05:08 PM
I'll weigh on on Rubino Belissimo. I had a colt by him last year. That colt was the easiest, most well minded colt. Rubino added elegance to the mare, as well as some more aptitude for dressage. He was out of a 17.1 hand mare, longer backed as well. Colt's back was an improvement on the dam. Overall I was very happy with the result. Perhaps he didn't have the best shoulder freedom in the trot, but it wasn't bad. Excellent canter. His walk was an improvement over his dam's (that is her short-falling). Honestly, from day one, his canter looked so nice to sit on. He got his first bath the day before his Inspection... he was totally fine with it, didn't move. I just held the rope and he stayed put. Such a good boy. He was very personable, a super, super colt. His owner's adore him :)

I'd be more than happy to share photos of the colt, and his dam via email if your interested. Definitely take a good look at Rubino Bellissmo :yes:

ann kitchel
Feb. 1, 2010, 06:48 PM
I second Ridley! He is Weser -Ems but is a bit bigger than a pony and has bigger genes. I have a smaller Oldenburg mare in foal to him and am on my third "Stibby-Me" foal. The two I have on the ground out of smaller Oldenburg mares will be smaller than my usual big ones , I assume 15.2 plus, big moving warmblood ponies..............

www.huntingtonfarm.com

Sonesta
Feb. 1, 2010, 07:01 PM
Regarding your concern about R line stallions not having the movement: Rapture R is definitely an exception to that rule. His movement is just wonderful. Very free shoulder and great reach in front and power from behind. I was really impressed with him at his stallion testing.

Oakstable
Feb. 1, 2010, 08:07 PM
Full disclosure: I own 2 Rudy kids.

We've gone through a bash on Stedinger and now we're wiping out the R line for inadequate movement for dressage"

I copied this from a post for my blog and not sure who the author was. I apologize for that.
---------------------
certainly rohdiamant is the best son of Rubenstein.
the statistics speak a clear language:
40 licensed sons
510 registered mares
73 of them st pr
251 registered sport horses in 2007 and even more valuable: 45 of his get competing in S-level. can't beat that number.

---------------

There are many R line stallions in NA. I am sure their owners will appreciate the input.

sixpoundfarm
Feb. 1, 2010, 08:32 PM
2nd this! I have been really impressed with his offspring!

He is listed at 16.3, the mare of his that did the FEI YH this year, Woodwind cannot be any bigger than 16. So maybe even though he is larger, does not throw that. Nice horse, check her out. He is GOV approved.
.
Woodwind is beautiful! I was fortunate to see her in San Diego last year at the KWPN meeting. Lovely mare, and Contester looks to be a very nice producing stallion.

DownYonder
Feb. 2, 2010, 05:56 AM
Thanks again, everyone, for all your suggestions.

Don't know much about Staccato, so will have to look into him. He is not Oldenburg approved and I am not sure if they would grant him a breeding allowance.

Wamberto is listed at 16.2. Locksley I is listed at 16.3. Contester is also listed at 16.3. Does anyone know about the size of the dam of the Contester daughter, Woodwind?

Ridley is approved for Weser-Ems, but not for Oldenburg.

As I said, this mare is VERY tall (well over 17h). We are pretty certain she will produce size no matter who she is bred to, but by using stallions in the 16.0-16.1h range, we hope that the resulting foal won't go over 17h.

Regarding the Rubinstein horses - I think they are wonderful, wonderful horses. It is pretty much my favorite line, for many reasons. We have in the past considered Rubinstein sons and grandsons for this mare, but it is pretty common knowledge among experienced breeders that most of the Rubinstein line horses are not naturally big movers. That said, we do still have a few stallions from this line on our list. ;)

sixpoundfarm
Feb. 2, 2010, 06:33 AM
Photo of Woodwind, sorry I dont know her measured height.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb4/6lbphoto/idocus/P3210350.jpg

Signature
Feb. 2, 2010, 08:14 AM
What about Sir Gregory? He is brand new to the US but looks extremely nice and lovely type.

http://www.dreamscapefarm.com/HorseDetail.aspx?ID=383

Also Furst Impression at HP Hanoverians. He has some great breeding and while being geared to the hunters, he can move. I love the elasticity in the Florestan line horses.

NorCalDressage
Feb. 2, 2010, 10:32 AM
Photo of Woodwind, sorry I dont know her measured height.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb4/6lbphoto/idocus/P3210350.jpg

Another with Woodwind
http://tamarawiththecamera.smugmug.com/2009-Shows/Starr-Vaughn-Dressage-1-May/8227282_LtSAs#539050212_dPBRP

DownYonder
Feb. 2, 2010, 10:47 AM
What about Sir Gregory? He is brand new to the US but looks extremely nice and lovely type.


He is listed at 16.2 as a 4 y/o, so may be too big for this mare.


Also Furst Impression at HP Hanoverians. He has some great breeding and while being geared to the hunters, he can move. I love the elasticity in the Florestan line horses.

We have added him to the list, although will have to evaluate him again for movement.

I think the MO will be torn between big movers and horses with proven upper level success. Seems like there aren't a lot of smaller guys successful at FEI that have naturally big gaits. It's an interesting conundrum.

I would still like to know the size of the dam of the Woodwind horse. Wasn't she bred by one of our COTH'ers? Or am I thinking of the wrong horse?

Signature
Feb. 2, 2010, 10:53 AM
I know he's more jumper bred but what about Pablo? He had success at the upper levels, and is not too big.

It is an interesting connundrum - usually we're fighting to make the foals bigger, not smaller. LOL

I'm not making this comment about any particular stallion mentioned in this thread, just in general, so please don't take it the wrong way, but there are many stallions out there who aren't as big as they are advertised. We have seen and person and had friends look at several stallions and say they are nowhere near the advertised size. Don't know how you would truly find out except for to go look in person? But just saying, I would perhaps look at average offspring size as well as the size of the stallion, because some produce larger than themselves and some produce smaller, etc.

tarragon
Feb. 2, 2010, 10:58 AM
What about Contucci? Even though he's listed at 16.3 most of his get I've seen have been pretty small and compact with big gaits.

Idocus, maybe? Is he available fresh now?

Oakstable
Feb. 2, 2010, 11:15 AM
Re Contucci, I bred a 15.2 imported Hanoverian mare to him, and the resulting gelding is 16.1.

I think there are many mare owners needing a stallion to downsize the get.

However if a SO advertised his stallion as consistently downsizing the size of the mare, I wonder what would happen to his demand.

Have you talked with the Hoffmans re Facet?

sixpoundfarm
Feb. 2, 2010, 11:16 AM
I would still like to know the size of the dam of the Woodwind horse. Wasn't she bred by one of our COTH'ers? Or am I thinking of the wrong horse?

Breeder listed is Natalie Bryant.

FabulousPixie
Feb. 2, 2010, 11:22 AM
Symont is a small typey stallion that I LOVE the look of. This is him:

http://www.gestuet-haemelschenburg.de/html/e_symont.html

He stands at 167cm, so is about 16.1 1/2.

There is a link to a video of him on this page:

http://www.team-nijhof.nl/apps/hengst_detail.php?id=5

He is by Monteverdi (Partout) out a full sister to Silvermoon - sire of the late great Blue Hors Matinee.

His licensing scores were: character 9,0; constitution 8,5; walk 9,13; trot 8,5; canter 8,0; outdoor jumping 8,5; outdoor canter-ability 8,5; riding ability 8,75; Jumping 7,0.

Oakstable
Feb. 2, 2010, 11:51 AM
Symont is gorgeous.
I think the OP wants a fresh NA stallion, tho.

Symont is out of the Suska mare line. There was an ATA stallion out of that line -- Schubert -- and there are no stallion sons. You occasionally can find a mare. (I bred to him three times. Big elastic movement!!)

FabulousPixie
Feb. 2, 2010, 12:21 PM
Symont is gorgeous.
I think the OP wants a fresh NA stallion, tho.

Oops sorry must read more carefully - I am UK based so missed that bit!

Dance_To_Oblivion
Feb. 2, 2010, 04:41 PM
You might want to look at Saint Sandro. Here is a link to him: http://www.goldenventurefarm.com/1GVFSaintSandro.htm

I saw him a few months ago and he is very good to handle and has a very good temperament in addition to his other qualities. He has just been sent to training with Julio Mendoza and does have a few foals due this spring.

Molly Malone
Feb. 2, 2010, 04:55 PM
You might want to look at Saint Sandro. Here is a link to him: http://www.goldenventurefarm.com/1GVFSaintSandro.htm


He's not approved GOV. Possibly he is in RPSI book II, if that.

Dance_To_Oblivion
Feb. 2, 2010, 05:14 PM
Molly,

Saint Sandro is currently approved RPSI Book II and will be represented for Book I approval this fall at the request of the inspectors. He was only 2 at the time he was presented so clearly not finished maturing. I believe the owner was going to look at GOV after he completes the stallion test.

DownYonder
Feb. 2, 2010, 05:24 PM
Hmm, some of the others that were mentioned:

Prince Optimus - no longer activated with Oldenburg
Pablo - maybe, we will think about him a bit more
Idocus - he is listed as 16.3 and his stud fee is over the MO's budget
Contucci - he is over 16.3h (maybe even 17h)
Symont - not available in N.A. via fresh semen
Saint Sandro - not approved for breeding at this time and his pedigree is not what we are looking for (MO is not interested in Sandro Hit stallions, or in stallions out of Arabian mares)
Wamberto - listed at 16.2, and I suspect could produce some size with his pedigree

Also, I meant to mention this earlier. YL made a good point that some of the stallions mentioned may shorten legs without shortening the back. I think the MO would rather have a 17h+ horse that was in proportion, than one with a long back and stumpy legs.

Oakstable
Feb. 2, 2010, 05:35 PM
Who did Holly S suggest? She should know which NA stallions might downsize a big mare.

Just thot of a black imported Trakehner stallion owned by the Hoffmans in SoCal. He is GOV only. Jennifer showed him recently at the CDI in Thermal and scored really well. So look up Herzberg.

You could ask Bob DeGour about the size of their Herzberg offspring. They are primarily GOV breeders near Temecula.

There is also that black GP Dutch stallion shown by Ashley Holzer. Gambor or something like that. I thot he was 16H but the web site says 16.2h.

Ibex
Feb. 2, 2010, 05:45 PM
I didn't catch what the issue with Wonderful is, but I know two offspring who are both quite little, but both fantastic movers...

Mozart
Feb. 2, 2010, 05:51 PM
I don't know if he breeds or not but Denielle Gallagher (Canadian dressage rider) rides a very adorable small black Trakehner stallion, Abrikos. They are, I think, currently shortlisted for the Canadian team. He seems to be a consistent performer.

Edited to add:
I just checked my facts...yes, Denielle is short listed but Abrikos is listed as a Russian Warmblood. I suppose if he is being aimed at WEG's he likely won't be in the breeding business at the moment.

However, it seems that there might be a market for a small, typey stallions so maybe he could have a secondary career!

ahf
Feb. 2, 2010, 05:54 PM
Just because a stallion is no longer activated with the GOV, there is no reason to not to ask about the issue with the stallion owner.

If the stallions are not activated, it's because they weren't getting any mares out of the registry, and you have to stop the bleed at some point.

Perhaps if the mareowners pays for activation, the SO will reduce the stud fee accordingly. It never hurts to ask.

kiss my donk
Feb. 2, 2010, 06:04 PM
How about DeLuxe? Small (about 16 h in real life), compact, black, GOV, dressage stallion. I don't know if he throws larger than himself.

YankeeLawyer
Feb. 2, 2010, 06:19 PM
Also, I meant to mention this earlier. YL made a good point that some of the stallions mentioned may shorten legs without shortening the back. I think the MO would rather have a 17h+ horse that was in proportion, than one with a long back and stumpy legs.

Thanks; the reason I mentioned it is that I have seen some unfortunate results, occasionally, when people have tried to breed horses that are very different in frame or height. Rather than arrive at a median or average, they get bits and pieces from each one and not always the best combo.

You might consider Benidetto. As I said, I am not sure whether he will decrease height significantly but his offspring have very nice proportions.

Signature
Feb. 2, 2010, 06:24 PM
I don't think the not activated thing is too big a deal - we registered a foal by Donatelli with the GOV, who passed away and therefore not activated this year (mare was in foal before he died obviously)... they charged us $100 extra and that was it. :)

stripes
Feb. 2, 2010, 08:16 PM
A friend of mine has a very nice Rodioso colt. When I saw Rodioso at the ISR Inspection he was not very tall and had nice refinement. Not sure about his foals, as I've only seen 2, both out of the same mare. They are both refined and have lovely dressage movement. And both are registered with GOV.

I believe Rodioso is a Rohdiamant son.

Brutust
Feb. 2, 2010, 09:48 PM
I second the Benidetto and Royal Prince suggestions.

Indy-lou
Feb. 2, 2010, 10:28 PM
I am using Benidetto this year for some of the same reasons the OP has posted.
Suggest you give Bergamon a look as well.

Walnut Farm
Feb. 3, 2010, 04:35 AM
first off, thank you for all the Benidetto suggestions (currently in Germany, so not so active)

I think it is more difficult to downsize a mare than to add size. With that said, Benidetto was bred to mostly large or tall or both kind of mares. Several of those are also tall (but leggy, short coupled and excellent elastic movers)

Out of the bunch are also average size offspring. Even those from smaller mares (he did breed a several 16-16.1 mares). One of those were the reserve champion at the Hanoverian foal championat here in Germany (quite an honor here in the heart of hanoverian breedings, as these were the finalistis of all the 20 foal shows) and she got 9 for movement.

Anyway, if breeding was so easy always, we would all have horses in the olympics :)

Best of luck

ShannonD
Feb. 3, 2010, 05:23 AM
I know he's more jumper bred but what about Pablo? He had success at the upper levels, and is not too big.

There is a Pablo at my barn and he is HUGE. I honestly did not expect the pedigree in looking at him. He is out of a 16.3h mare and the gelding is WELL over 17h.

DownYonder
Feb. 3, 2010, 07:27 AM
Who did Holly S suggest? She should know which NA stallions might downsize a big mare.

Just thot of a black imported Trakehner stallion owned by the Hoffmans in SoCal. He is GOV only. Jennifer showed him recently at the CDI in Thermal and scored really well. So look up Herzberg.

You could ask Bob DeGour about the size of their Herzberg offspring. They are primarily GOV breeders near Temecula.

There is also that black GP Dutch stallion shown by Ashley Holzer. Gambor or something like that. I thot he was 16H but the web site says 16.2h.

Haven't talked to Holly yet, but will probably pick her brain since she has seen the mare and her Escudo II filly.

Herzberg is listed as 16.2 so may be too big for our needs, but we will take a look at him.

Gambol is listed at 16.1. I am not familiar with most of the horses in his pedigree, though - would have to do some research to try to figure out what he might pass on.

DownYonder
Feb. 3, 2010, 07:28 AM
I don't know if he breeds or not but Denielle Gallagher (Canadian dressage rider) rides a very adorable small black Trakehner stallion, Abrikos. They are, I think, currently shortlisted for the Canadian team. He seems to be a consistent performer.

Edited to add:
I just checked my facts...yes, Denielle is short listed but Abrikos is listed as a Russian Warmblood. I suppose if he is being aimed at WEG's he likely won't be in the breeding business at the moment.

However, it seems that there might be a market for a small, typey stallions so maybe he could have a secondary career!

Hmm, if he is Russian WB, he would most likely not be eligible for a breeding allowance. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

DownYonder
Feb. 3, 2010, 07:31 AM
Just because a stallion is no longer activated with the GOV, there is no reason to not to ask about the issue with the stallion owner.

If the stallions are not activated, it's because they weren't getting any mares out of the registry, and you have to stop the bleed at some point.

Perhaps if the mareowners pays for activation, the SO will reduce the stud fee accordingly. It never hurts to ask.

Agreed, however MO would be better off to pay the $100 for a breeding allowance than the $350 to activate the stallion.

DownYonder
Feb. 3, 2010, 07:37 AM
DeLuxe - will take another look at him but he has had virtually no show career, so I'm not sure the MO will be interested in him.
Rodioso - I have always been fond of this little guy, but he is not a suitable candidate for this mare.
Bergamon - Not suitable for this mare.

DownYonder
Feb. 3, 2010, 07:39 AM
first off, thank you for all the Benidetto suggestions (currently in Germany, so not so active)


Yikes! So he went back to Germany? Didn't he just arrive here a few months ago? :confused:

Edgewood
Feb. 3, 2010, 08:05 AM
Yikes! So he went back to Germany? Didn't he just arrive here a few months ago? :confused:
DY, I think Walnut Farm meant that she was currently in Germany and not so active, not that Benidetto went back to Germany.

(inside information regarding her whereabouts...)

retrofit
Feb. 3, 2010, 10:32 AM
Gambol is an interesting suggestion. I don't think he has been widely bred but there was a very talented young mare locally by him. Aside from talent, her temperament & work ethic are superb - which is his rep as well. I believe the mare sold to a very capable, ambitious amateur. And before you ask, I have no idea who the dam was or exactly what he contributed to the equation - sorry.

Also, I find it contradictory that you are writing off DeLuxe - who has schooled to FEI levels with some well known riders - for not having a show career, but you are considering some younger stallions that have yet to hit FEI. Just food for thought.

Mozart
Feb. 3, 2010, 10:54 AM
Hmm, if he is Russian WB, he would most likely not be eligible for a breeding allowance. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Ah, true...forgot about the GOV part of it. When I think "small, typey dressage stallion" he just sprang to mind.

Signature
Feb. 3, 2010, 10:55 AM
What about Wilmington at Honey Locust? We saw him at the Stallion Expo in Raleigh in what, 2008, and he was a really fancy mover. We were looking to use him for the hunter ring due to the type and movement, until we saw the jumping score, but for dressage I would look - says 16.2h and he is leggy. Waikiki x Fabriano

http://www.honeylocustfarm.com/stallions/wilmington1.htm

Oakstable
Feb. 3, 2010, 11:57 AM
Gambol has a performance record that is EXCEPTIONAL.

Take a look at it on his web site. Wowzer.

And Herzberg ... he is still competing at age 17 in a CDI. Trakehners usually don't have tremendous size in their pedigrees. The mares are often 15.2 or so.

ShannonD
Feb. 3, 2010, 01:42 PM
Not a dressage person, but just chiming in with a stallion no one has mentioned, Masterpiece. Smaller, dark colored, has a decent performance career, and was performance tested.

http://www.littlebitfarminc.com/id29.html

DownYonder
Feb. 4, 2010, 07:05 AM
DY, I think Walnut Farm meant that she was currently in Germany and not so active, not that Benidetto went back to Germany.

(inside information regarding her whereabouts...)

Whew, thanks. I was a bit worried there for a minute as we still have Benidetto on our short list. :winkgrin:

DownYonder
Feb. 4, 2010, 07:06 AM
Not a dressage person, but just chiming in with a stallion no one has mentioned, Masterpiece. Smaller, dark colored, has a decent performance career, and was performance tested.

http://www.littlebitfarminc.com/id29.html

Thanks, but he has not been approved by Oldenburg (GOV), and I believe the MO would prefer to stick to stallions that are approved and activated.

DownYonder
Feb. 4, 2010, 07:16 AM
Also, I find it contradictory that you are writing off DeLuxe - who has schooled to FEI levels with some well known riders - for not having a show career, but you are considering some younger stallions that have yet to hit FEI. Just food for thought.

I think there is a bit of difference between a young stallion that has done pretty well in his performance tests and/or young horse classes (and whose owner is focused on competing the horse), and an older stallion that has never been shown.

Although this foal is being bred as a keeper, there is always the possibility that it will be for sale one day, and it is easier to market a youngster when its sire has name recognition and/or a good performance record.

DownYonder
Feb. 4, 2010, 07:17 AM
Just wanted to say thanks again to everyone for their suggestions. We ended up with 14 stallions on our first list, and have pretty much developed a short list from that of about 5-6 stallions to look into further.

Oakstable
Feb. 4, 2010, 05:12 PM
BTW, Gambol's bloodlines are TB, Selle Francais, Holsteiner and Gelderlander.

His dam is a Ster Preferent Prestatie mare by the Keur stallion Lector.

His sire, Gabor, was put on the watch list not because of the quality but because the get were not showing to be an asset to sport.

KWPN evaluates offspring at the age of 7 and they have a strict standard on how many need to be performing.

I don't know of any other registry that even comes close.

Gabor's foal report was more complimentary than many I have read even with popular stallions.,

I've had my eye on Gambol for a while. He hasn't done a lot of breeding because he has been competing internationally with Ashley Holzer.

Hope some MO with quality mares give this guy a chance.

jcotton
Feb. 4, 2010, 08:43 PM
Others for consideration for a stallion that tends to throw smaller foals, you may want to look into Caletino. Or a Wesser-Em, Chardonnay, whose is showing FEI.

DownYonder
Feb. 5, 2010, 06:30 AM
Others for consideration for a stallion that tends to throw smaller foals, you may want to look into Caletino. Or a Wesser-Em, Chardonnay, whose is showing FEI.

Thanks, I will have to look into Caletino. I don't know if he is approved for Oldenburg breeding, or if not, eligible for a breeding allowance.

Ponies are not an option as the MO plans to register the foal with Oldenburg (GOV).

Crosiadore Farm
Feb. 5, 2010, 06:47 AM
Have not read the whole thread, but did anyone suggest Leslie Morse's Tip Top? We saw him perform at the Eqxquis Dressage masters yesterday and he did a great job. He is not tall.....listed on her site as 162cm as a four year old, and is compact. Maybe call Leslie and ask how much size he is throwing with his foals?

Oakstable
Feb. 5, 2010, 11:22 AM
Tip Top is $950/dose, frozen only.

Is this mare owner open to frozen?

mbm
Feb. 5, 2010, 12:46 PM
hey, I am not an breeding aficionado, but my friend Sue Curry has a nice stallion Donnerschalg, that is able to throw smaller (16h) fabulous babies. She has 3 right now that are all on the "smaller " size that are amazing prospects...

so I would think about Donner too.... plus his babies have super temperaments, looks, etc.

http://www.fairwindfarm.com/donnerschlag.htm

DownYonder
Feb. 5, 2010, 01:59 PM
Have not read the whole thread, but did anyone suggest Leslie Morse's Tip Top? We saw him perform at the Eqxquis Dressage masters yesterday and he did a great job. He is not tall.....listed on her site as 162cm as a four year old, and is compact. Maybe call Leslie and ask how much size he is throwing with his foals?

Thanks, Nancy. We do have Tip Top on our short list, and he may actually be the best bet size-wise, as he has a lot of moderate sized horses up close in his pedigree. His sire and dam are both listed at 1.63m. Sire’s sire is listed at 1.65m. Dam’s sire is listed at 1.64, and dam’s dam at 1.61. Most of the others, while themselves small, have a fair amount of size behind them, so would have a greater chance of throwing size.

Frozen is a problem, though. Mare is 15, has had some uterine clearance issues in the past, and can be a bit tricky to get pregnant with a good embryo. MO will be better off using a stallion available via fresh semen.

Obviously we still have some homework to do. ;)

MBM, I love Donnerschlag, but he has size behind him from Donnerhall, plus he is probably not a good candidate for this mare due to age and distance.