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ProzacPuppy
Aug. 1, 2003, 12:31 PM
Have I read it correctly on the USA EQ site that a proposed rule change for Childrens,Adults and Pony jumpers is elimination if they leave out a stride on a combination? I saw that and couldn't believe it but on consideration I suppose it is logical- first optimum time and next required striding. Makes it sound awfully like a hunter round without the pretty.

(Of course, I just got back from a show where they had "Very Low" jumpers. They had 17 h. warmbloods and small ponies going around the same course of fences that looked about 2'6". And some of them were very very scary...even in optimum time rounds.)

ProzacPuppy
Aug. 1, 2003, 12:31 PM
Have I read it correctly on the USA EQ site that a proposed rule change for Childrens,Adults and Pony jumpers is elimination if they leave out a stride on a combination? I saw that and couldn't believe it but on consideration I suppose it is logical- first optimum time and next required striding. Makes it sound awfully like a hunter round without the pretty.

(Of course, I just got back from a show where they had "Very Low" jumpers. They had 17 h. warmbloods and small ponies going around the same course of fences that looked about 2'6". And some of them were very very scary...even in optimum time rounds.)

Liverpool
Aug. 1, 2003, 12:48 PM
Yes, I believe it was Joe Dotoli who proposed this change.

Remember - the rule change proposal process is available to anyone (or I should say any member in good standing) who wishes to fill out the proper form and submit it by the deadline for consideration.

Having seen many Scary Jumper classes similar to the one you describe... I can't say I am opposed to this particular rule change proposal. The way I read it, it does not dictate the number of strides throughout the course - just specifies that there must be the normal striding for in and outs.

"It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham

buryinghill1
Aug. 1, 2003, 01:01 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
There are jumper judges who have enough trouble trying to get their current jobs right http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif..now they'll have to learn what "leaving out a stride" means.
What if it's unintentional? What determines unintentional? If a kid is told by the trainer to gallop down and leave out a stride, but ride out the gate [after a winning ride] tearfully exclaiming "boo hoo I got run away with..." is a judge gonna let that one slide?
Hmmm. I agree there are some bad rides in the kiddie classes, but there are a whole lotta crappy jumper judges that have enough trouble paying attention http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif (god bless the good judges http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) and there are a whole lotta trainers who are gonna mess with this rule.
Ah. It'll probably pass.
Great. Now you gotta do the card, do the timers, do the stopwatch, make sure the course is set, look for the number on the pad somewhere (only to find out 9 trips later the kid wore the wrong number), and now count strides. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Aug. 1, 2003, 01:05 PM
when you say combination, do you mean a one/2 stride?? if you do~ then i understand that idea... it could prevent a lot of accidents happening~ my horse bounced a 1 stride in child/adults a few shows ago and YES IT WAS SCARY~ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif but it wasnt intentional, he just has a HUGE stride!! and he did manage to make it through it clear! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif but what about a 4 stride, putting 3 strides in?? if you can add why cant you take out? some horses lope easily down them taking out strides, and it would cause a rail if they were to hold them back too much...make since?? maybe you are just talking about the 1/2 stride combos though??
also, isnt the whole idea behind jumpers kind of that the rider/trainer tries to decide new ways of doing things to outwit the next?? should they be able to do this any way they like?

PONY PICS!! (http://photos.yahoo.com/kabelgirl06)

Liverpool
Aug. 1, 2003, 01:06 PM
I don't think the issue of whether it is intentional or not should factor in... it is no different (for judging purposes) than stops or run outs, (which by definition are ALL unintentional http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) which can also cause elimination.

"It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham

C*A*T*H*E*R*I*N*E
Aug. 1, 2003, 01:07 PM
HMMM, yea that's a little odd. So are they going to start posting the strides now? In jumper classes they usually let you walk the course to determine what strides your going to do. SO, I guess I just don't get it LOL. Are you allowed to leave out strides in the JUMP-OFF? Or can you not leave out strides in both rounds. I'M LOST HELP!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

~* CaThErInE *~
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Liverpool
Aug. 1, 2003, 01:10 PM
Go read the rule change proposal.

It refers to the striding in combinations only. So the track for the course is still up to the rider, and you can still do the inside turns etc.

"It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham

Portia
Aug. 1, 2003, 01:11 PM
Like Liverpool says, anybody can propose a rule change on just about anything. Unless it is an Extraordinary Rule Change, they all go through the same process.

It will get debated and discussed in the committees that have an interest in the subject (in this case, that will be at least the jumper committee and the safety committee, probably several others), and then it will be discussed in the General Rules Change forums at the Annual Meeting. Then the Board of Directors will consider it and decide whether to adopt it or not.

I can understand where Joe Dotoli is coming from. He's very concerned with safety (he is the primary architect of the junior helmet rule), and I'm guessing he's tired of seeing kids and amateurs run around the jumpers leaving strides out and sometimes landing in the middle of an oxer because of it. So, it's a very legitimate concern. The only question is whether this rule change is the way to address it or not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Till you feed us, right and wrong can wait.
Bertolt Brecht (and every horse)

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Aug. 1, 2003, 01:18 PM
ohhhhhhhh i get the whole combo thing!! its for a 3 to a 2 stride ect thing!! haha~ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif just took me a minute!

PONY PICS!! (http://photos.yahoo.com/kabelgirl06)

2487lyf
Aug. 1, 2003, 01:31 PM
I think it is a great idea! It would cut down on the nuts who don't know how to ride a jumper course and think it is all about flying around as fast as possible. REALITY CHECK: YOU ARE GOING TO KILL YOURSELVES DOING THAT! If you are forced to be more in control, it will make the jumper ring a much safer place to be. Do you really think you can win a Grand Prix by running around flat out? I don't think so!

A majority of major accidents happen in combinations when they are going way to fast. This rule will make accidents much less likely and I support it all the way!

Just because you aren't crazy, doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to win a lower level jumper class.

~*~Nattie~*~
http://community.webshots.com/user/nattie2006

PonyJumperGRL
Aug. 1, 2003, 01:35 PM
I don't know, I show in the Children's and I believe the rule would be hard to enforce, but as long as it contained to combinations and not lines and broken lines then I think I could tolerate it. Though I can say I haven't seen very many people getting one in the two strides.

Amanda
"Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

JinxyFish313
Aug. 1, 2003, 02:01 PM
I dont see the point..how many people intentionally leave out strides in combos that make it dangerous? Making it illegal isn't going to stop it- it happens when people lose control or make bad desicisons, and people that do that will probably make enough mistakes elsewhere to eliminate them from the ribbons anyway. Seems like a pretty stupid rule to me. Leave the stride counting to hunter judges.

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

Janet
Aug. 1, 2003, 02:04 PM
Need definitions.

What is the "correct" number of strides for each distance?

What if a (stupid or malicious) course designer sets a combination at 30 feet? Is it a one stride or a two stride? Will you be penalized for doing it in one stride?

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

archieflies
Aug. 1, 2003, 02:26 PM
Sounds silly to me... the people who make combinations dangerous by leaving out strides do so because they don't think while on course. No silly rules are going to have the least effect on that.
So since it can't really serve its intended purpose, seems to me that it would just make the thinking people fit into the same cookie-cutter rounds that a hunter does... Heck, if my horse can safely leave out a stride in a combination and it correctly lines me up for wherever I'm heading him next, then I'm gonna do it. If not, I won't... Those that can't make that decision probably aren't going to stop and ponder a new rule as they approach a combo...
Also, along the same lines as what Janet said... seems like it might limit the creativity and trickiness of the course designer... Jumper course are designed to make you figure those things out on your own...

TXJumper- where was this 2'6 jumper class... maybe we were at the same place...

Saw 'Em Off...

Chelsea
Aug. 1, 2003, 02:35 PM
I think it would be hard to enforce in the pony jumpers...many of the ponies have horse strides so when they dont get the pony strides they would be eliminated...? Doesn't sound fair to me...

I think it would be just as efficient to get faults for leaving out a stride because people would no longer be doing it intentionally, but if it were to happen by mistake you wouldn't be eliminated.

dunno...just a thought.. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

----------------------------
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..No Guts, no glory. No brains, no headaches..

CAJumper
Aug. 1, 2003, 02:41 PM
I think it's a great idea. I've seen too many bounced one strides in the childrens/adults - it's terrifying to see! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I don't think intentional/unintentional should be a factor though.

Policy of Truth
Aug. 1, 2003, 03:21 PM
It sounds like a good idea to me...especially after having been on my greenie weenie and accidentally bouncing a one-stride http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I can see where people would disagree, though. I have never shown jumpers, but my old trainer is a jumping instructor...she teaches safety first, and in spite of that, the jumpers still seem a bit intimidating to me!

My guess is that this rule is to help eliminate the scray rounds we've all witnessed, which help to increase the level of safety...especially for us Adult riders!

I know it goes against the grain of jumpers to have to count strides...but isn't that what you're supposed to be doing anyway? I know not in the way the hunters do, but more for the technicality of the ride?

jackson
Aug. 1, 2003, 03:58 PM
UHHHHHHH jumpers classes have judges?! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Is this all they do? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif Guess they better make coffee a priority in that arena! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"Anger is the only thing that won't go away by losing it." - Jack Nicholson in Anger Management

---They all laughed at me when I said warmbloods would make good hunters. But I knew! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif---

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BarbB
Aug. 1, 2003, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm guessing he's tired of seeing kids and amateurs run around the jumpers leaving strides out and sometimes landing in the middle of an oxer because of it. So, it's a very legitimate concern. The only question is whether this rule change is the way to address it or not.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally, and I'm sure I will get flamed for this, I think landing in the middle of an oxer addresses it better than this rule change.
I thought the point of jumpers was to know your horse's capabilites and your own and take best advantage of it. Whether that means leaving strides out or adding them or taking the big turn or the tight one.
Otherwise, it's a hunter class.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

BarbB

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings

Tapestry (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/)

Peggy
Aug. 1, 2003, 04:08 PM
Seems reasonable to me. Especially since a combination consists of two or more jumps set 39'5" or less from each other (something that has the ABC designations with the same #). So we're talking about 1- or 2-stride combos, assuming a 12' stride.

ProzacPuppy
Aug. 1, 2003, 04:11 PM
archieflies- we were up in Oklahoma City- the GO Preview show. Are you with John D still? If you folks were there I didn't see you (and I had lots of "sitting around" time to visit people, would have been nice to talk to some of the hometown folks).

I guess I see what the rule is trying to "correct" but I am not sure that they are going about it in the right way. I had one of those children's jumpers who tried to bounce a one stride and learned a hard lesson.

It just seems like they are taking the "jumper-ness" out of the lower level jumpers. Tho as I said, there were many occasions watching even the children's and low schooling when one would wince or catch one's breath as a horse careened around the course barely this side of control, often with a trainer exhorting the rider to "gallop".

BenRidin
Aug. 1, 2003, 04:16 PM
I'm sure it wouldn't seem so reasonable if you had a huge horse like I do with such a big step that even long lines for everyone else are steady for me! In the jump off if I am going at a good pace we leave strides out without jumping long or making it look crazy, my horse just has a lot of step and a very big jump so it isn't unsafe for us to leave out steps. I don't think it's fair.

What do they do about bending lines? There are several different ways you can ride them.. it's just too complicated to work.

~BenRidin

JinxyFish313
Aug. 1, 2003, 04:17 PM
BarbB- you had the guts to say what I wanted to say!

Let's eliminate the option for judge's to request for riders to drop their stirrups in Eq classes too. While we're at it..why don't we make our jumps out of Nerf foam, wear football pads, and deck out horses out in bubble wrap.

With all seriousness though- at some point it becomes the owner/rider/trainer's responsibility to make sure everyone involved is safe and I think such 'on course' decisions fall into that realm.

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

Nikki^
Aug. 1, 2003, 04:39 PM
For the lower levels, like Green and specials jumpers it would be ok. But for the Big Time jumpers it's a stupid rule.

Now: What are the Heights for Pony, Children's and Adult jumpers? It think if you can jump a 3'6 and up course then you don't have to listen to the rule. For like the 3'3 and under, then I would see that the rule would protect riders and their horses. But It better stop there!!!

http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/
Look up your TB's bloodlines

ProzacPuppy
Aug. 1, 2003, 04:56 PM
It is specific to Children, Adult and Pony, which I believe are all 3'6" and below. And it is specific to LEAVING OUT strides in combinations. I guess you can add to your hearts content with no problem.

I wonder if this includes jump offs, when those on the big horses with big strides, can often do a 3 stride in 2 and shave seconds off the clock. Which is basically the whole point of a jump off- cutting corners and seconds.

BenRidin
Aug. 1, 2003, 05:04 PM
Haha you mean do 2 strides in a 3?? LOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~BenRidin

Melzy
Aug. 1, 2003, 05:15 PM
Instead of rule changes about leaving out strides, why not eliminate combinations altogether from lower level classes? Problem solved. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Let the exhibitors take the responsibility for their rounds. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Remi and me
Aug. 1, 2003, 05:54 PM
Sounds silly to me. Not all horses in these classes are the same size and can do the same strides. Not all can do a 12ft stride without being hustled through - to me that is more dangerous than allowing them to do the number of strides that they can do. I hope this does not come to pass.

Vermont - where winter riders are real riders.

JinxyFish313
Aug. 1, 2003, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BenRidin:
Haha you mean do 2 strides in a 3?? LOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~BenRidin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think TXJumper said a '3 stride in 2', 3 stride meaning the line was supposed to be 3 strides, and her horse did it in 2. That is what is usually meant when someone says 'i did an X stride in X' http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

Lord Helpus
Aug. 1, 2003, 06:45 PM
Hey guys, a combination is easy to define since it is numbered 9A, 9B 9C. Jumps with DIFFERENT numbers are not combinations... DUH! This rule does not say how many strides you can take between 3 and 4 or 7 and 8, just between 5A and 5B.

As for the poster who said that landing in the middle of an oxer is punishment enough was not at KHP when that girl DIED leaving out a stride in a combination. I saw it and I am all for the rule change.

If a rider cannot stay in control enough to do the right number of strides in a combination, then they should not be riding in that class to begin with. If control is such an issue, the rider had better learn more skiils and/or ride a different horse.

SPEED KILLS AND I HAVE SEEN IT.

These low jumps that do not back a horse off are terrifying. Something has to be done to keep more kids from dying or getting terribly hurt.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I CAN spell, I just can't type and I am too blind to proofread InfoPop's teeny tiny font. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BenRidin
Aug. 1, 2003, 06:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JinxyFish313:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BenRidin:
Haha you mean do 2 strides in a 3?? LOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~BenRidin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think TXJumper said a '3 stride in 2', 3 stride meaning the line was supposed to be 3 strides, and her horse did it in 2. That is what is usually meant when someone says 'i did an X stride in X' http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh haha I thought she meant that she out a 3 stride in a 2 line lol. It can go either way http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif sorry for the mix up http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

~BenRidin

BarbB
Aug. 1, 2003, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
As for the poster who said that landing in the middle of an oxer is punishment enough was not at KHP when that girl DIED leaving out a stride in a combination. I saw it and I am all for the rule change.

If a rider cannot stay in control enough to do the right number of strides in a combination, then they should not be riding in that class to begin with. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, I wasn't there.
New rules are not the answer to every accident.
The second part of your post that I quoted is the answer. Riders and trainers need to take responsibility for their own riding.
I would hate to see some one dragging on a horse to a bad takeoff spot because they jumped in too big and now can't make the "correct" strides. That could be a disaster also.
There are accidents waiting to happen on every course.
The answer is good training and riding in a class appropriate for your abilities.
Knee-jerk reaction rules rarely work - in any field - even when written with the best intentions.

BarbB

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings

Tapestry (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/)

ProzacPuppy
Aug. 1, 2003, 07:10 PM
I guess I am just a little annoyed by the way society today seems to feel the need to protect people from themselves all the time. ( eg. "If you smash your Happy Meal toy and try to eat it, you could choke" warnings) .

I personally would like to see a little more control over who can actually call themself a trainer and then have said trainer exercise a little common sense with their riders in the arena.

War Admiral
Aug. 1, 2003, 07:42 PM
I think TXJumper has it right. DO NOT let's make the jumpers a "hunter round without the pretty". Beautifully put, TXJ. No amount of legislating the finding of a distance is going to make it any easier to find. This is dumbing-down of a variety I utterly loathe.

______________
The TB body slave formerly known as Lizviola.

creseida
Aug. 1, 2003, 07:57 PM
Well, at a recent jumper show that I was watching (and riding in), there was one kid who flew around a course, and on his large pony/small horse (not sure but horse was no bigger than 15h), this kid came into a triple (oxer-oxer-vertical) with two strides between each element so hot that he only put in one stride between the middle oxer and the vertical. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif He also bounced a longish one stride, that all the ponies and many of the smaller horses put TWO strides in. He was frightening to watch. He was the only one to leave out strides, even though there were a couple of horses in the high 17h/18h range showing and even THEY didn't leave them out! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

~&lt;&gt;~ COTHBB Leather Care Guru~&lt;&gt;~
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*!*KabelGirl*!*
Aug. 1, 2003, 08:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JinxyFish313:
BarbB- you had the guts to say what I wanted to say!

Let's eliminate the option for judge's to request for riders to drop their stirrups in Eq classes too. While we're at it..why don't we make our jumps out of Nerf foam, wear football pads, and deck out horses out in bubble wrap.

With all seriousness though- at some point it becomes the owner/rider/trainer's responsibility to make sure everyone involved is safe and I think such 'on course' decisions fall into that realm.

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


HAHA!~! NICE!! exactly what i was thinking you 2`~ nicely said!!

PONY PICS!! (http://photos.yahoo.com/kabelgirl06)

Box-of-Rox
Aug. 1, 2003, 09:19 PM
i actually think it's a great rule. It's important that it is restricted to the ch/ad and pony jumpers. because to be honest, if you can do a one stride in a two stride over 4', you go on with your bad self. I've never seen it done.

I have seen ch/ad courses though where it's basically clear that the only way to win it is to leave out in the combinations, and that's just dumb dumb dumb.


If you do 7 direct strides in a bending 10, you are riding a 96 foot direct line in a 132 foot line. the direct line is probably more like 110 feet anyway, assuming you take the shortest, straighest line. assuming you get a forward spot in and a forward spot out, you only have to make up like a stride, which over 7 strides is less than two feet per stride, and any horse with a decent stride is capable of that.

but if it's a two stride (i'm not sure where people are getting that a three stride is a combination, i really think it's not but maybe i'm wrong?) set on a 12' stride you have to make up 12' somewhere in there, so if you split it three ways your horse has to land 4' farther in than normal and take off 4' further off (that's like taking off at a nice spot to a jump bigger than the jump you're jumping before you even add on the distance of the jump you;re jumping too the jump your jumping. basically, it's LONG) and take a 16' stride inbetween. If your horse isn't exceptionally long strided then your horse will have to flatten out MAJORLY (think race-horse, and those things can't come around the stretch to a 5' vertical and expect to clear it) thus increasing the chance of him hitting the jump in front.

if your horse IS exceptionally long strided, he will probably be very discombobulated after being held together over a round and suddenly dropped, and he will need help to get out, and if you are leaving that far off you CAN'T help, thus increasing the chance of him hitting the jump in front.


and, btw, most of the recent serious accidents have happened because of horses fliping over after catching a rail in front.

BoR--resident Stupid Child

Willem FAN CLUB!

archieflies
Aug. 1, 2003, 11:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TXJumper:
archieflies- we were up in Oklahoma City- the GO Preview show. Are you with John D still? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I was just thinking of a local show we did this past weekend... some pretty crazy rides at the low low jumper levels... John was prouder of my three red ribbons than he woulda been of a blue, seeing as how the blues went to some pretty rowdy rides! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I put in four strides where some put in two... and have never been more happy with the horse!

Saw 'Em Off...

archieflies
Aug. 1, 2003, 11:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
As for the poster who said that landing in the middle of an oxer is punishment enough was not at KHP when that girl DIED leaving out a stride in a combination. I saw it and I am all for the rule change.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but would a rule have changed anything? Honestly, if my horse were to bolt or in some way get unruly beyond my capability to slow him down, then the sudden thought of being disqualified wouldn't make too much of a difference... seems like I'd have enough on my mind to begin with... as for riders that shouldn't be in a class if they don't have the skills to handle it... that yet again seems like it should be the trainer's responsibility. I mean, the rider is going out there to show what they and their horse can do, USAE can't exactly pre-test them to make sure they are capable. Schooling is meant to do that. I would not, however, be against a rule that says that when a course is dangerously ridden the ring steward or timer or "judge" would be allowed to go knock a person senseless... That I would fully support. In fact, I might just offer to fill that position myself... Watch for me at the ringside with my baseball bat...

Saw 'Em Off...

Beezer
Aug. 1, 2003, 11:37 PM
As someone who rides in the division in question (AA) ... I'm all for it.

It's all well and good to say, "Hey, it's the trainer's/rider's/parents'/whomever's responsibiilty" but honestly ... the whole point of a rule, ANY rule in any specter of life, is either for a person's safety or the safety of someone else or the safety of society. In this case, the horse's safety is just as much, if not more, at risk by the crackpot riders who go ripping around courses they have no business being on in the first place and the trainers and parents who allow it.

These are lower-level classes we are talking about. They should be designed to ask riders questions appropriate to their level in a classroom suited to them. This is the place riders learn how shaving off the number of strides in a bending line saves time (it's amazing how many don't even count them -- "Ah, c'mon, you don't count strides in jumpers! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ). This is the schoolroom where they learn where and how corners can be cut.

But what these classes and courses (and, yes, trainers) should NOT be doing is encouraging elementary school kids to do high school-level work ... and leaving out strides in a combination is just that.

***Dear Sam: OK, you win. Flying changes, flying schmanges. You are now officially a trail horse. Happy now??***

Paloma
Aug. 1, 2003, 11:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by archieflies:

Yes, but would a rule have changed anything? Honestly, if my horse were to bolt or in some way get unruly beyond my capability to slow him down, then the sudden thought of being disqualified wouldn't make too much of a difference... seems like I'd have enough on my mind to begin with... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think people want the rule to address the occasional unruliness that may happen with any horse. The horse who has an occasional sour bout will generally eliminate himself, so a rule really isn't addressing that. Besides, if your horse is that out of control, you should be excusing yourself and leaving the ring once you've regained control. You shouldn't be worried about trying to control the insanity just enough to get the horse to finish a course. If your horse gallops out of control on a regular basis, then he isn't ready for the show ring yet.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>as for riders that shouldn't be in a class if they don't have the skills to handle it... that yet again seems like it should be the trainer's responsibility. I mean, the rider is going out there to show what they and their horse can do, USAE can't exactly pre-test them to make sure they are capable. Schooling is meant to do that. I would not, however, be against a rule that says that when a course is dangerously ridden the ring steward or timer or "judge" would be allowed to go knock a person senseless... That I would fully support. In fact, I might just offer to fill that position myself... Watch for me at the ringside with my baseball bat...

Saw 'Em Off...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But there are some trainers who encourage this dangerous riding style. Speed at the sacrifice of sanity and safety. By putting in optimum times that you cannot exceed UNLESS you are riding at a dangerous pace, and rules that say if you leave out a stride in a combination, you will be eliminated, it puts the onus back on the trainer. Once the rules eliminate their so-called "edge", their dangerous tactics will no longer net them a blue, but will net them an elimination. Let them get hit where it counts; in their points. And you don't go to jail for assaulting an idiot. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't think anyone wants to see the jumpers bastardized like the show hunter crawl, but to put in a reasonable minimum time limit will eliminate the opposite extreme, and if you aren't going like a bat out of hell, your horse won't be travelling on a 16' stride and won't leave out strides at combinations, so you won't risk being penalized. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That is what the rule is all about; penalizing the dnagerous extremes that cause dangerous crashes, injured riders and insanely dangerous horses.

M. O'Connor
Aug. 2, 2003, 05:56 AM
This is a GREAT proposal!!

If I am recalling correctly, leaving out a stride in a combination was also a factor in the fatal Littlewood acccident last winter.

As for bolting, out of control horses: aiming these at a jump is not wise at all. In fact, aiming them at anything, other than a very high wall is not wise at all (I have actually seen the extreme variety of this type jump the perimeter fence, spectators and all).

I do believe that even the dumbest judge on the roster has been screened by LOC and deemed qualified to count to ONE and TWO strides and differentiate between the correct and incorrect application of these in the negotiation of a combination.

I also believe that even the dumbest course designer should at least be qualified to measure an in-and-out correctly before being hired or otherwise handed the job.

Further, even the stupidest trainer on earth ought to at LEAST be able to teach students the difference between a combination and a line, AND succeed in teaching those students how to ride them correctly BEFORE taking them to the jumper ring at all.

This is not a case of trying to protect people from themselves, or even the horses from their hapless people. It's a question of protecting the sport from liability exposure due to the irresponsible actions of a small number of blatently reckless participants who are so witless as to exploit the possiblity of winning by virture of using dangerous techniques over correctly applied skills.

This rule will not only save a small number of lives, but will make the job of jump crews across the country ALOT easier, and I'm all for it.

MCL

M. O'Connor
Aug. 2, 2003, 06:02 AM
P.S. the solution to a pony getting the wrong number of steps in a combination is a BETTER PONY JUMPER DIVISION, with differentiated course measurements and fence heights based on the size and scope of the ponies competing and the ability of the riders sitting on them, as has existed for decades ALL OVER THE WORLD except here in the USA. Just COPY the sucessful specs used in Europe for goodness sake.

MCL

Lord Helpus
Aug. 2, 2003, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
P.S. the solution to a pony getting the wrong number of steps in a combination is a BETTER PONY JUMPER DIVISION, with differentiated course measurements and fence heights based on the size and scope of the ponies competing and the ability of the riders sitting on them, as has existed for decades ALL OVER THE WORLD except here in the USA. Just COPY the sucessful specs used in Europe for goodness sake.

MCL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MCL, I have not seen the exact wording of the rule proposal, but I doubt that it would mandate elimination if a horse took MORE strides ---i.e. did a two stride in and out in 3 strides. The intent, it seems, is to penalize horses for leaving out strides and landing in the middle of the second element.

I also hate seeing intelligence legislated. But I agree with MCL that it apears that it must be for the few trainers and riders who lack basic survival skills.

For anyone with enough skills to be in the ring in the first place, and an ounce of intelligence, this rule will never come into play.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I CAN spell, I just can't type and I am too blind to proofread InfoPop's teeny tiny font. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BenRidin
Aug. 2, 2003, 08:31 AM
Having a set number of strides in every line so that the kids never have to worry about tight or long lines is not going to teach pony jumpers how to ride.

~BenRidin

buryinghill1
Aug. 2, 2003, 09:35 AM
Hmmm.
Another scenario...
Judge MISSES the left-out stride. Kid (or adult http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) wins the class (or getsa ribbon). Can we protest the outcome of the class (ah ha - new rule change needed).
Another scenario...
Judge MISSES the left-out stride. Kid (or adult http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) wins the class (or getsa ribbon). Does the steward file a charge against the judge?

What if the show has no video?

ProzacPuppy
Aug. 2, 2003, 09:49 AM
As I said, I fully understand the purpose of the suggested rule and as a parent of a child who years ago did have a very bad crash, injuring both her horse and herself, I should feel that it is totally the right thing to do. But unfortunately, I keep getting the nagging feeling "What's next?" I seem to remember that they also suggested "Style Awards" in the lower level jumpers. Which is nice but it just rings of the hunter ring again. I suppose we shall see how it all works out and if further rules will follow.

The discussion got me to thinking about how course designers also aggravate the problem of some wild riding. The recent show we went to had some of the tightest first round times I have ever seen. One of our local Grand Prix trainers was especially incensed in the Prelim class when she had time faults despite a very well paced ride with no wasted time. Just to get to the jump off required riding at quite a clip. And then the jump off required "rodeo riding", dodging trees to get to the second element of a combination, 360 degree rollbacks.

Except for a few daredevil pros making inside cuts in the first round, very few people made it to the jump off.

Designs that require speed just to get to the jumpoff encourage "cowboy" riding. While it shouldn't allow dawdling, first round times need to be realistic for the average horse/rider at that level.

CrazyCorgi
Aug. 2, 2003, 09:56 AM
I can't imagine that not doing something on purpose (leaving strides out). Is going to change someones mind when accidently doing it. Usually, like when I did my first jumper round. It scared the bejesus out of me and I didn't do it again. If I was such a perfect rider back then I wouldn't have been an amateur, I would have been a professional.

Darlene
http://www.kidssportsnet.com/equestrian/crazycorgi/

*Polo*
*Wicked Wanda*

*It's what you learn after you know it all that counts* JW

buryinghill1
Aug. 2, 2003, 10:11 AM
The really dangerous kids don't always leave out strides. They go fast. They ride really badly. Trainers don't understand optimum time. They (and their customers) grumble when the kid had the fastest time, but does not win.

I'd love to see the lower levels sane but is it realistic? (yeah right - have you seen the "seniors" in Palm Beach???!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif)... God bless Joe for trying to keep kids (and those frightening adults) safe.

Another thought... what if the in and out is at the far end of the field. It is hidden from tower view by other jumps, trees, a gazebo. There are 2 judges in the tower. One does the clock, one does the card. The judge on the card does the backup stopwatch. The course designer will not move the in and out.
Kid leaves out a stride. Nobody sees it but one jump crew guy (who has no idea what is a stride) - and maybe a couple of horsefolks on the rail. This is gonna happen - and the jump crew guy isn't gonna have a clue what the judges ask him on a radio... He will know to tell them a rail fell, but he won't have a clue what to say when asked "did that pony leave one out?" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lord Helpus
Aug. 2, 2003, 10:31 AM
As an ex=AHSA steward, I can tell you that all of your scenarios about the judge missing a stride left out are 99.9% of the time just not going to happen. Jumper judges know when a stride has been left out. And if a judge should miss something then it is treated just as it would be int he hunter ring, when a horse breaks to the trot for 2 steps, but the judge misses it: If the judge soesn't see it, it hasn't happened. Occasionally its unfair, because a horse who should not get a ribbon does get one, but it doesn;t mean that you change all the rules because of an occasional circumstance.

You all can come up with far fetched scenarios (a field so big and with so many trees and other jumps that the jumper judge cannot see a combination -- if that is the case, then the JUDGE COMES INTO THIS ENORMOUS FIELD and positions himself so that he CAN SEE IT.....

I really cannot see what all this opposition is about. It only pertains to combinations, which are jumps that are never more than 2 strides apart --- any jumps that are 3 or more strides apart ARE NOT A COMBINATION. So it is going to penalize a horse that bounces a one stride or does 1 in a 2 stride. That is ALL.

Anyone can still leave a stride out down a line if they want to (or, as all of you seem to think, the horse is so out of control that the rider has no option but to leave a stride out.) This rule is NOT mandating anything about how many strides to do in a line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [insert shouting graemlin here].................

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I CAN spell, I just can't type and I am too blind to proofread InfoPop's teeny tiny font. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Weatherford
Aug. 2, 2003, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
P.S. the solution to a pony getting the wrong number of steps in a combination is a BETTER PONY JUMPER DIVISION, with differentiated course measurements and fence heights based on the size and scope of the ponies competing and the ability of the riders sitting on them, as has existed for decades ALL OVER THE WORLD except here in the USA. Just COPY the sucessful specs used in Europe for goodness sake.

MCL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ABSOLUTELY!!!

I just returned from the European Pony Championships (and the Irish National Championships held in Ring 2) and YES the kids went fast - and WOW could they RIDE!!

At the International level, they were jumping a Prix des Nations course at 1.4-1.45meters (over 4'6")....

At the National level, the "under 10's" (that is under 10 yrs old for kid) were on small and medium ponies jumping about 2'9-3'0. With jumpoffs, etc.

The courses, however, had lots of bending lines, turns, and no TWO STRIDE in and outs. The one stride ones were set big enough so the ponies would NOT bounce them - regardless of their speed.

A couple of six year old kids were in the top three in the under 10 class... Rode VERY well!

We need to change the specs for Pony Jumpers and get in line with the rest of the world!

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BenRidin
Aug. 2, 2003, 10:56 AM
Putting that rule into effect is not going to stop those dangerous rides, they still will happen. What we need is a better rule that will save the kids in the event of those dangerous rides: am I the only one thinking where were the safety cups when these kids landed in the middle of an oxer and died or were otherwise seriously injured??

~BenRidin

fancypants
Aug. 2, 2003, 11:20 AM
So what would count as a "stride"? If your horse leaves in the middle of the second stride, does that still count? If your horse puts 3 feet down in a one stride is that better than just bouncing it? If somebody's going flat out around the rest of the course, how easily are they going to be able to slow down for a combination. People that reckless aren't going to think "I need to shorten the stride around the corner to get 2 even strides in the combo". They're probably going to jump in at a gallop and grab the horse in the face to fit in the extra stride. I could see more problems happening with those people trying to squeeze in an extra stride than letting their horse jump off the pace it's going on.

------------------------------
I thought about being rich and it doesn't mean so much. Just look at Henry Ford----all those millions and he never even owned a Cadillac!

JinxyFish313
Aug. 2, 2003, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TXJumper:
I personally would like to see a little more control over who can actually call themself a trainer and then have said trainer exercise a little common sense with their riders in the arena.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahmen http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

Beau Peep
Aug. 2, 2003, 06:25 PM
I'm assuming this rule was proposed for safety reasons? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif If thats why I think thats cool. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif If I remember correctly, a while back there was a thread on those crazy jumpers that go to small shows and barrel madly around courses. Won't they be dissapointed?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

That wasn't implying people that have fast courses are crazy though! But basically the thread was complaining about people that went to school and C shows and go in and do dangerously fast rounds instead of carefully planning strides, etc. No flames please! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

So, yeah. As long as this applies to like a 1/2 stride combination or something similiar, that sounds like a definite change for the better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The mighty brute surged through the woods. His legs flailing at the barren soil, pushing himself out of the woods. His silken tresses whipped the air as he soared across the earth with wings on his feet. He was not bounded to anything, he had no limitations, he was wild and free. --To Tame The Wind

AAJumper
Aug. 2, 2003, 10:34 PM
Not everyone who leaves a stride out in a combination is riding like a maniac or getting run away with. Some horse have big steps and when they are on a jumpoff length stride and have a combination near the end of the jumpoff that is vertical-vertical and walks 3 feet short of 2 strides...well, sometimes it turns into one. I've done this twice, and I was NOT running like a maniac. I happened to be riding a horse (different one each time but both w/similar size strides) who had a huge stride and I rode up to the first vertical just right, such that each horse was easily able to take one giant step and jump out. I didn't plan that, but it just worked out that way, and I don't think that I should be penalized for that. The horses were not running out of control, nor was I intentionally riding dangerously. But maybe the course designers should consider the fact that setting a vertical-vertical 2 stride coming home in the jumpoff 3 feet short might encourage a horse with a big stride to take it in one.

I don't think anyone ever intends to leave a stride out in a combination, so I doubt a rule like that is going to change how people ride the jumpoff. I know it would not have made a difference to me in how I rode my rounds, because I would never intentionally do something like that...it just happened.

FWIW, I've seen a heck of a lot scarier rides from people who did 3 strides in a 2, or 2 in a 1. Oh, and as for the judges not noticing things like strides....well, we have one judge out here who doesn't always notice when there is a rail down. I had to actually tell him I was not riding the jumpoff because I had a rail down. And that was at an A show...not at some schooling show. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Aug. 3, 2003, 01:46 AM
back again~ i think it seems like a reasonable proposal, but it would get SO TECHNICAL!! even the hunter judges have to look down to write things down, there is no way a judge can keep attention that long **atleast not the ones ive ever had!!**, and like SLS said...what is a stride?? does a half a stride count?? what about studder steps?? a few feet, but not 4?? it would be so much easier to leave well enough alone. JMO

PONY PICS!! (http://photos.yahoo.com/kabelgirl06)

Weatherford
Aug. 3, 2003, 02:00 AM
Safety cups and no two stride distances would solve part of the problem from the start...

Perhaps our course designers need certification, first???

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

buryinghill1
Aug. 3, 2003, 07:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Safety cups and no two stride distances would solve part of the problem from the start...
Perhaps our course designers need certification, first??? _ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As of 6/1/03, shows offering more than $10K have to use breakaway cups (I wish USAE would stop using the word "safety" - it's a lawyer's
delight) in jumper classes offering money. And other shows (less than 10K) - sorry I can't recall the rule exactly - have to use breakaways in the jumper schooling area.
It's a start.
If you look around - you'll find some management (both coasts and midwest) use breakaways no matter - and the cups cost a lot of money!
Certifying all course designers doesn't make them any better (there are a lot of bad course designers!) - but it's not a bad idea. Should this rule apply to all horse shows? What about the one-day C horse shows? Or "local" rated USAE shows?

Now - back to a question I posed earlier- what does a judge do with a kid (or adult) who didn't "intentionally" leave out a stride? There's already some subjectivity in judging jumpers (A refusal to judge A is not a refusal to judge B - like a slide into a jump - was the horse actually making an effort?). So the kid appears to be getting run away with - can a judge toss out that kid when the pony leaves out a stride? There are a lot of slick pony jocks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

pwynnnorman
Aug. 3, 2003, 08:39 AM
Weatherford, you're dead on with this one. I think jumper course designers should take a few lessons from eventing cross country designers. There have been similar issues with dangerous riding in eventing (still are), but the way they've been addressed has been through course design, not "legislating intelligence," as someone put it so well.

Tracks which require good riding, like turns, skinnies, arrowheads, bending lines, scary-looking stuff, WATER, (fake or real, under or alongside)...I suspect the trainers and show managers are the ones baulking at mandated course design (instead of legislating intelligence) because tougher courses would force trainers to actually take the time to TEACH their students real skills, instead of just take their money and let them show on fast packers.

I don't know, of course, but I suspect that in Europe, kids do what they do because they are forced to take the time--and maybe also because many of them don't have the money.

IMO, that's the kind of tough, leadership positions the NGB should take, too: yes, people have to make a living in horse sports, but SOMEONE has got to address the REAL reasons behind the dangerous riding. Eventing and dressage and even western pleasure have taken real hard looks at their sports and legislated for the good of the horse/rider, not just the trainer/show manager. I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but that's really what needs to happen in h-j, too. The entries may drop, but they'll revive, given time.

Sportponies Unlimited
Now in New Jersey, 30 mins. south of Philadelphia, PA.
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
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Portia
Aug. 3, 2003, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TXJumper:
Designs that require speed just to get to the jumpoff encourage "cowboy" riding. While it shouldn't allow dawdling, first round times need to be realistic for the average horse/rider at that level.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
TxJumper, the example you gave is just bad course design, and gawd knows we see enough of it around here. (And it's bad judging if the judge didn't ask the designer to increase the time allowed after seeing the first few rounds.)

The jumper rules, Article 2738 2., provide that the time allowed in most classes is based on a minimum speed of 382 yards per minute or 360 yards per minute for pony jumpers or very small or indoor arenas. If the TA is based on any other speed, it has to be printed in the prize list. The jumper rules also contain a table that sets out the time allowed based on the pace and length of the track at everything from 300 meters/328 yards per minute to 400 meters/457 yards per minute as a jump off for track distances from 250 to 640 yards. This is supposed to help make it relatively easy for a designer to set an appropriate TA for the particular track, level, and class type.

Setting a tight time can be a legitimate question, of course, but some "course designers" can't be bothered to properly measure the tracks they set, or try to get cute with the times because they don't understand how to properly set other questions.

I'm strongly with Weatherford and the others that our course designers need to prove they have certain miminum qualifications and knowledge and be certified/licenses just like our judges and stewards are.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Till you feed us, right and wrong can wait.
Bertolt Brecht (and every horse)

ProzacPuppy
Aug. 3, 2003, 02:32 PM
Portia- it is very rare when you see "cowboying" in the 4'6" divisions but that is what this designer required if you were to get in under the time allowed. Luckily, most of the people riding in the Prelims and Jr/AO divisions have been around long enough and have ridden enough to know that running around with your tail on fire is not the way to ride and gracefully left the arena with their clear round but time faults.

Unfortunately, in the lower divisions such as "very low" and childrens, alot of the riders flew to make the time, win the ribbon, please the trainer....

I truly think what needs to be addressed are course designers with no sense of design and trainers who shouldn't be training. In the meantime, I guess they need to "legislate" to keep riders safe.

BenRidin
Aug. 3, 2003, 03:05 PM
The reason these horses go so much faster than in 4'6'' and so on is simply because they can. At 3'6'' it is very easy to get a long spot and your horse jump flat and you still clear it. It is also as easy to get a really tight spot if your horse has the scope to get you out of it. This rule change will not stop that fact that 3'6'' is easy enough for most horses to clear with those crazy rides and that is why the jump off's fill so much. The kids are going fast because they want to get the best time (can you blame them?)
IMO:What would stop this (and I ride in the division we are talking about) is more technical courses so that the kids actually have to focus on slowing down to make the distances and getting around clean rather than just trying to be the fastest clean in the jump off out of 20.

~BenRidin

hifi
Aug. 3, 2003, 04:21 PM
I haven't read though all the posts. There seems to be a logical explaination for this. It is to keep children and adults and ponies from killing themselfs though a combination. I believe the kid won dies last year tumbled though an oxer coming out of a combo. I have seen some of these kids and it is dam dangerous. I am an advocate of this rule change. You don't see the GP riders leaving strides out of combos. At 3'6", tripping height, you can get killed leaving out strides like that. This I am firm on and have my flame suit zipped up!

Poindexter, may he rest in peace.
Certified Thread Killer
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Portia
Aug. 3, 2003, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TXJumper:
I truly think what needs to be addressed are course designers with no sense of design and trainers who shouldn't be training. In the meantime, I guess they need to "legislate" to keep riders safe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm with you on that, TxJumper. Course designers should be required to be tested and certified to be allowed to build at recognized shows, just like judges.

There was a show at the end of the calendar year/beginning of show year where my trainer vowed never to show at another show where this person is building the courses. And she wasn't the only one.

Everything was on a strange distance, even the courses at level 1 and 2. There were courses where not a single distance was on a normal stride. Since it was all on strange distances, you had to back up to every fence. The designer also had multiple lines with compound questions that were simply not suitable for the classes -- hell, they wouldn't have been suitable for a GP class. There was no way to ride the courses forward and the strange distances and unsuitable questions only encouraged stopping.

The "designer" was someone who had spent some time working with a very good FEI course designer but apparently didn't get the message that you have to make the questions suitable for the level and type of class. This person had seen somebody who really knew what they were doing asking sophisticated questions and just took the tricks and piled them on, without applying the underlying knowledge.

Having to be certified/licensed might not stop "designers" like this one, but at least there might be some hope of weeding them out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Till you feed us, right and wrong can wait.
Bertolt Brecht (and every horse)

firelizardfarm
Aug. 3, 2003, 04:28 PM
I think there are better ways to address this problem. Most notable are the optimum time classes. Furthermore,the rule book is not intended to address every possible stupid mistake someone can make but rather to create a level playing field for all competitors. I am about sick and tired of needing legislation every time some moron kills themselves. I recently saw a nicely worded example of the perfect liability release in an equine legal book - It said something along the lines of "Sh** happens, people get injured or killed doing this all the time, if I get injured or killed while doing this activity, it will be my fault and I will not sue anybody for anything at any time!" What ever happened to personal responsibility?
There has been a trend at our shows recently to see the Children's Jumpers running like crazy. Funny thing, the horses that are tearing around like maniacs, don't seem to be able to jump clear rounds and don't get a lot of ribbons. One may get lucky now and then, but I haven't been seeing a lot of tri-colors handed out.
I just disagree with the concept that we all need to live in padded playpens. Flame suit on.

Second place is first loser.

JinxyFish313
Aug. 3, 2003, 04:47 PM
Any course designers on the boards that have a comment on the proposed rule change or the idea of eliminating 2 strides all together?

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

buryinghill1
Aug. 3, 2003, 04:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia: ... course designers need to prove they have certain miminum qualifications and knowledge and be certified/licenses just like our judges and stewards are..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All this will do is give USAEq more money. Getting a course designer's "license" means your licensed official friends signed your application. I've seen the best and the worst - all approved by the LOC. And hanging out at a clinic every 3 years doesn't make you better educated - only if you listen http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Still, it's worth a shot. And think of the money - all those clinics and licensing fees.
Will these CD's have to be licensed for the hunter ring? All shows?
Anybody propose a rule change yet?

Now, once all the course designers are licensed, will this make the "trainers" (and I use this term loosely) any better?

A/O Jumper
Aug. 3, 2003, 04:57 PM
I think it is a great idea, especially since ch/adt riders try to kill themselves all for a little blue ribbon and a little bit of money...come on, its not like they are competing in the grand prixs for the big money. Too many ch/adt riders have died in the past year and something does need to be done. It really isn't necessary to take a stride out of a combination, your time is not going to be that much faster.
Ch/adt riders need to learn how to ride a jumper course properly and should be eliminated for such stupid things that could end up killing them.

Why is there so much month left at the end of the money?

Bored*
Aug. 3, 2003, 05:29 PM
I think this rule change probably will stop the maniac rounds. The people who do that want to win, but they cannot win if they are eliminated.

I agree that horses can and will occasionally morph into asses, and the rider will just have to accept the consequenses for that. I haven't heard anyone complain about how they shouldn't be eliminated when their horse decides to run out or stop or do something else unruly.
"I didn't MEAN to pull that rail, can I do my jump-off anyway?" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Life is an STD, and it is 100% fatal.

JinxyFish313
Aug. 3, 2003, 05:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A/O Jumper:
I think it is a great idea, especially since ch/adt riders try to kill themselves all for a little blue ribbon and a little bit of money...come on, its not like they are competing in the grand prixs for the big money. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't follow your logic that people shouldn't want to win just because they're not competing in a prestigeous class. From what I've seen, its not the pony and ch/AA riders that ride like 'yahoos' its the people in the non-A rated, local 2'6" type stuff, where chances are, this rule would never be enforced anyway.

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

Portia
Aug. 3, 2003, 06:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buryinghill1:
All this will do is give USAEq more money. Getting a course designer's "license" means your licensed official friends signed your application. I've seen the best and the worst - all approved by the LOC. And hanging out at a clinic every 3 years doesn't make you better educated - only if you listen http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, but bh1, it won't be USA Eq getting the fees, it will be USEF. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

On a more serious note, are you saying we shouldn't have licensed officials at all, that anyone should be allowed to judge, or steward, or be a TD, because requiring licensing and continuing education for those officials puts money in the federation's pocket?

What I don't understand, and have never understood, is why course designers are the one type of official who can so clearly affect the quality of competition and the safety of horse and rider who is not required to have or to prove some minimum level of education, experience, or basic competence. If the licensing process works to give us better officials, then shouldn't that extend to course designers also?

Sure, being licensed doesn't keep us from having some really incompetent licensed officials, and there are people out there who know the rules and could be great officials but they don't have the time or interest in getting licensed. And it can be expensive and take a lot of time and effort to get licensed. Does that mean we shouldn't have licensing requirements at all? (I'm asking that seriously.)

A/O Jumper
Aug. 3, 2003, 09:14 PM
Jinxy---

First of all...I wasn't saying that they shouldn't try to win. I was merely implying that the risks they sometimes take are not worth it. You should always try to win..otherwise why are we competing. But you should always be safe. I have won countless ch/adt and Jr/AO jumper classes and I have always done it the safe way. I am not going to take an option that might kill me or hurt my horse.

Second of all...do you go to A shows? I compete in the ch/adts right now and I believe the riders are much worse than the riders in non rated/schooling shows...especially in classics. I recently rode in a $10,000 ch/adt classic where they were taking these unbelievable turns and risks that i would never even have thought of walking the course. And those that took them either fell off or stopped because their horse was smarter than them. And its the child riders that are too young to know better and lack the ability to ride a course correctly because they never took the proper steps to ride hunters and equitation first. They do it just because their trainers tell them to. Shame on the trainers of these riders.

As for the pony jumpers....the ones that I see can barely make it around the courses much less go crazy.

Why is there so much month left at the end of the money?

hifi
Aug. 3, 2003, 09:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"What I don't understand, and have never understood, is why course designers are the one type of official who can so clearly affect the quality of competition and the safety of horse and rider who is not required to have or to prove some minimum level of education, experience, or basic competence. If the licensing process works to give us better officials, then shouldn't that extend to course designers also?"

Sure, being licensed doesn't keep us from having some really incompetent licensed officials, and there are people out there who know the rules and could be great officials but they don't have the time or interest in getting licensed. And it can be expensive and take a lot of time and effort to get licensed. Does that mean we shouldn't have licensing requirements at all? (I'm asking that seriously.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The USAE/USEF is requiring that a course designer to be licensed just as a judge especially for money classes, $10,000 and up. I worked very hard to get my "r" in Jumper course design and as someone put it, I did not just have a course designer friend sign my application.
I worked 4 hard years to get my qualifications and I do believe I design good SAFE courses, ever mindful of the level of competition. I went though a rather demanding screaning process. I need the approval of two members of the USAE jumper comittee, I needed to assist with 2 different FEI course designers, and they must certify my ablity, I attended several USAE Jumper judge/ course design clinics, plus ten questionaires to be returned bu members of USAE. Then that goes to the LOC and good luck. They don't just hand then out to every one.

Poindexter, may he rest in peace.
Certified Thread Killer
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[This message was edited by hifi on Aug. 03, 2003 at 11:46 PM.]

[Edited to fix quote part http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif]

[This message was edited by Portia on Aug. 04, 2003 at 01:58 AM.]

BenRidin
Aug. 3, 2003, 09:48 PM
A/Ojumper.. if the kids don't take those crazy turns and make those mistakes and learn from them in the small divisions then they won't know that they aren't going to work in the bigger stuff. Also it's hard to judge because it is a small jumper class, it's for a lot of people green in the jumpers. You gotta try those turns and make the mistakes in order to learn from them. I would know, I have tried some pretty awesome turns, but I ended up crashing through the jump. It wasn't because I was going too fast or because the turn was impossible, just because I didn't know how to ride it (I drove her to the tight spot too hard).
So yea, some kids are just dangerous going around their courses and their trainers should do something about it, but then there are some who don't have the pretty rounds because they are doing it for the learning experience.

~BenRidin

JinxyFish313
Aug. 3, 2003, 10:20 PM
A/O Jumper- yes I go to A shows and yes I compete in the ch jumpers (err..Im horseless at the moment, but you get the point). Maybe its different where you are, but it is a rare occurance for me to see someone riding with a 'yahoo/cowboy' style compared to the local stuff. To further attest to that point, the first time I did the children's jumpers was at HITS Catskills and I CRAWLED around the first course as if it were a hunter round and still got 6th out of about 60 entries...so its not all that necessary to fly around a course to win or get into the jump off. Just last year at the Hampton Classic I recall my mother's comment (she has been involved in the A circuit for around 20 years and was a rider herself) about the children's jumper riders that was something like "wow, I'm so impressed by the talent of the kids in these divisions these days, I can remember when this division was a joke."

And I agree with BenRidin that people have to learn from experience. Dumbing down the lower divisions even further is counterproductive. You can't learn how to do something just by hearing about it or watching others- you have to try it and learn for yourself how something should be and can be done.

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

Weatherford
Aug. 3, 2003, 10:54 PM
Some suggestions that might help even more based on the Irish way...

One - no combinations or only one combination (one stride) in the original course.

Two - no straight lines in the course (forcing people to turn and ride in a controled manner.)

Three - no timed jumpoff classes under 3'6". In Ireland, you simply get grading points for a clear round. Children are all on ponies - and jump accordingly (significantly higher than in the US) and Amateurs (not a particularly popular division) start at 3'3" and 3'6 - and the fences are raised for the jumpoff. Riding Club classes are slightly different (lower), but there are levels and examinations to pass before you can show...

Just thoughts.

(Linda Allen would chime in, but she is designing at Dublin Horse Show - will see her today! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dahlia
Aug. 3, 2003, 11:35 PM
I wish I had seen this thread earlier, I have had shows every weekend and just got home tonight but this is one of the more interesting and important threads I've seen in a long time.

Weatherford, I agree with everything you've said and would LOVE to hear what Linda says after you fill her in. She is the best. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I think don't want to see our jumper classes at any level turn into hunter courses, however, in the name of safety. And my first thought was that the trainers and parents are as much to blame for reckless riding. You know....if all trainers used Linda Allen's gymnastics I think their students would have the skills to ride courses better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If kids are riding dangerously for time--or lack of skill--let's encourage them to go back into the equitation classes for awhile.

ProzacPuppy
Aug. 4, 2003, 05:52 AM
Jinxyfish- That fact that you could go at a hunter pace and still finish 6th out of 60 seems to me to attest to the fact that whoever designed the course did a fabulous job and made it technical enough that the "speed freaks" would eliminate themselves and those that were capable of riding a nice, technical course at a reasonable pace would be rewarded. That is what should happen at all levels of rated shows. The course designs should require skill and pacing, not just speed.

I think the fence heights will always be a problem- any horse can jump a 3'6" course. The good ones can do it a warp speed. If they survive, these "cowboys" will probably have a rude awakening when they get to the big fences. My daughter discovered early on that once the fences get of 4'6", a double clean is almost always guaranteed a ribbon (and some nice money).

buryinghill1
Aug. 4, 2003, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia: Does that mean we shouldn't have licensing requirements at all? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely not, counsellor.
I don't like many non USAEq events because the judges are awful, there is no steward and some non-recognized shows are too, er, disorganized for me.
What I believe is a card-carrying CD does not necessarily mean the riders, or the horses, or the spectators, or the licensed officials http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif will be any safer. With all due respect to hifi, who is justifiably proud of her accomplishment, there are a lot of crappy course designers - card-carrying or otherwise - out there. One does not find a CD license in a Cracker Jack box, but I'm sure even hifi has looked at the latest list and gone, "huh?" The LOC has approved some seriously challenged folks...
Hmm. Let me think back to Lake Placid. Ms. Allen designed some very good courses - as did M.Jolicoeur. Some of the 3'6" jumpers were downright dangerous. A good CD would not make those trainers any more compitent, the horses any saner or the riders any safer. Heck - the seniors showing on the grass in Palm Beach are absolutely frightening. NO CD will fix that!
I have no problem licensing anyone/anything: Trainers, grooms, internet sufers, moms, dads, dogs, guns. I do have a problem believing a licensed CD will save somebody's life - we need to start with the right training, the right horse, the right trainer, the right footing, a well-built course (not only well-designed) and compete in events suitable for our level.
So the kid ends up eating dirt... have you seen some of the EMTs out there????? (that's another story).
License away, esquire.

hedgehog
Aug. 4, 2003, 06:48 AM
I think this rule change is the first step down a very sippery slope. If you want to do hunters then do hunters. Jumpers are meant to be objective not subjective.

As I see it, the real problem is that we continue to dumb down all sports in America just so that people can feel good about themselves.

Instead of dumbing things down we should be making them tougher. If the course designs demanded good riding, you would get good riding. Instead we get course design that allow anyone to rocket around the course.

Ridin' Fool
Aug. 4, 2003, 11:07 AM
I heard many first-hand accounts about the tragic accident at KHP last season, and it was shortly after that many called for safety vests and similar measures regarding combinations and striding.

As an A/A jumper rider, I very rarely see kids or adults intentionally take a stride out of a combination. They seem to be unfortunate misjudgements and normally have very unfortunate results! I have, however, seen the Optimum time classes work - nice controlled rides - and even better when the OT portion is in the actual jump off!

Not sure who made the point earlier, but tight time alloweds over the c/a courses is a recipe for disaster! Don't know that I blame the course designers though - it's great that they are trying to make things more technical (or perhaps they are trying to move the show along?), but I've seen many trainers interpret it as "go really fast in the first round, even faster in the jump off." I've seen more crashes and scary rides in the first round, and mostly with longer bending lines.

Ruby G. Weber
Aug. 4, 2003, 05:38 PM
I have been giving this topic a bit of thought as I was an early supporter of the Optimum Time format for the divisions mentioned here as well as divisons for young horses.

First let me say that I don't think now, nor did I think when advocating the OT format, that we can legislate our way out of accidents, avoidable or otherwise.

In a perfect world, adding or deleting in a combination would result in four faults, but being that this isn't a perfect world...

One solution, using current options would be to run all the classes in the above mentioned divisions under the OT format. I doubt many would go for that idea so...

In the name of safety and better riding and training, why not devise a system where one is penalized for excessive speed?

If course designers can calculate the optimum time and the time allowed for a jump off for a track, why then can't they calculate what would be considered too fast for young or inexperienced riders and horses? If the time allowed in the jump off is, for example, 45 seconds, a rider completing the jump off in less that 37 seconds would be penalized time faults calculated the same for exceeding the time allowed in the jump off.

I suggest the slope is less slippery when asking for more skill whilst keeping in mind the safety of both rider and horse. No doubt there would be some getting used to on the part of both riders, trainers and course designers just as there was when the OT format was first introduced and used.

I'm afraid penalizing riders for leaving strides out in combinations is not going to solve the problem of excessive speed in these divisions.

www.geocities.com/daisyfieldva (http://www.geocities.com/daisyfieldva)

AAJumper
Aug. 4, 2003, 06:58 PM
I don't think the answer is to eliminate combinations. Actually, in the rounds that I've watched, the problems don't seem to happen at the combinations. It's things like the long gallop down to the last fence that can cause an accident, IMO. And, at least in my experience, knowing that a combination is coming up makes one slow down and be more careful at that point in the course. Unfortunately for me, I wasn't able to get that to work out right a couple of times, but it wasn't disasterous.

I don't know...I'm sort of tired of hearing people constantly bash this division. Yes, there are some scary riders...but I don't think that going to extremes in terms of rules, etc is going to change that. Yahoos will still be yahoos, but to be quite honest, I don't see that many yahoos racing around, at least at the shows I go to. A lot of the winners are good riders on good horses...not maniacs galloping around.

For a lot of ammy riders, the A/A's are it...they either can't afford a horse that can go past that level or they don't want to jump higher than 3'6". So in that respect, it would really be a bummer for them to have only optimum time classes, or classes where there are no combinations.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think that this rule change proposal is it.

JinxyFish313
Aug. 4, 2003, 07:15 PM
Ruby G Weber- I would support that as long as the 'excessive' speed was reasonable, unfortunately Im sure many people would not feel that way. As for OT classes...They're ok, but as AAJumper pointed out, they do take something out of the division for the qualified riders. So if there were a 'safe' yet 'competitive' range of OK times, I guess I'd favor that.

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

dahlia
Aug. 8, 2003, 03:09 PM
BUMP

Weatherford, any remarks on this from Linda Allen?

__________________________________________________ ________

"The definition of a true liberal is someone who has an open mind." --Arnold Schwarzenegger

Janet
Aug. 8, 2003, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If course designers can calculate the optimum time and the time allowed for a jump off for a track, why then can't they calculate what would be considered too fast for young or inexperienced riders and horses? If the time allowed in the jump off is, for example, 45 seconds, a rider completing the jump off in less that 37 seconds would be penalized time faults calculated the same for exceeding the time allowed in the jump off. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> BUT...

If rider A takes the "outside track" and runs like hell, he may still end up slower than rider B who takes the "inside track" at a moderate pace.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

findeight
Aug. 8, 2003, 05:29 PM
So what would be the problem in having Child Adult combinations built on related distances and penalizing a leave out????Or at the very least stop buiding at a distance on the half stride that encourages the flyer?? Perhaps at the AA level a distance like this is appropriate but it surely is not at lower levels.

C/A is...oh how can I say this and not insult anybody...not a division that qualifies one for the Olympics? It's a more a..well, novice isn't the right description, but it's a lower level...even with the 3'9". It's for weekend riders and kids on the way up as well as older Adults on the way down and those who are older with older and less scopey horses.

I think course designers CAN build challenging yet safe courses without "dummying down" anything and I think this division is in need of exactly this.

We really cannot do anything about the so called "trainer people"...much as I would like to http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Madeline
Aug. 8, 2003, 05:52 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JinxyFish313:
Ruby G Weber- I would support that as long as the 'excessive' speed was reasonable, unfortunately Im sure many people would not feel that way. As for OT classes...They're ok, but as AAJumper pointed out, they do take something out of the division for the qualified riders. So if there were a 'safe' yet 'competitive' range of OK times, I guess I'd favor that.

The problem with optimum time is that it penalizes those who make really good turns as well as those who yahoo around. Reality is that the good turns should win, and will win in the higher divisions.

You can't legislate good sense, and courses in AA and children's dhould have more turns and options where good riding will be significantly faster than bad, but very bold, riding.

There was a children's course today in VT where this was the case. The best turns won, not the boldest gallop.

madeline

alurker30
Aug. 8, 2003, 11:08 PM
It seems like a lot of people are upset about this proposed rule change. I have to ask: do any of you leave out strides in a combination on purpose?

win
Aug. 8, 2003, 11:22 PM
The first pony jumper class at the USA Pony finals was a SPEED CLASS!!!!!

Hello....USA does not reccomend this????

Take it from here....

Jumphigh83
Aug. 9, 2003, 10:03 AM
How in the name of god do you make a rule that forbids stupidity???? Please pass this on to the Senate and Legislature since this can be a real breakthrough in government.....
The speed class at the Pony Finals is a fastest CLEAN round not the table III class everyone stresses about.

Betsy
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Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

elizabeth
Aug. 9, 2003, 10:41 AM
For those of you who mentioned imposing course-designer certification requirements, my sense is that people race unsafely like lunatics around courses because their TRAINERS (such as they are) are telling them or have told them to so do. No? If trainers put more focus on accuracy (and I realize the good ones already do) there would correspondingly be less focus on racing. No?

I say this based on last year's pony finals at Culpeper which were at 3'6'', I think: Billy Worthington won the class, under Michael Kirby's training. Billy went last in the jump-off, and was faced with a then-best time that was SEVERAL seconds faster than any of the next closest rounds. (The best time was somewhere around 30 seconds, and the second best time was about 4 seconds off that. There were about 20 in the jump-off, and nobody could get close to the 30 seconds.)

I figured there was no way for Billy to beat the best time in that class, because those who even got CLOSE to the then-best-time were RACING, and Billy's mom specificaly forbid him to race around unsafely. Well, low and behold, Billy won the class with a time of around 27 seconds - yes, three seconds less than the then-best time - because his trainer, Michael Kirby, had Billy cut several turns (e.g. land and turn - no step - just land and turn), as opposed to running. Thus, while the best time up until then had proved unbeatable even by racing, Billy bested it by NOT racing. Rather, Billy virtually eliminated all of the fat on the turns. (Interestingly, when you are focused on landing and turning, you really CAN'T race, can you, because then you won't make the turn, right?)

Thus, even if you require course-designers to undergo certification to ensure that they can design a course that rewards accuracy and riding skill (as opposed to raw racing), you'd likely still see some trainers who just don't know how to train on how to ride a course that rewards accuracy and skill instructing their clients to race (e.g. yelling "faster, faster" on the rail).

buryinghill1
Aug. 9, 2003, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth: trainers who just don't know how to train <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The problem in a nutshell.
Uneducated riders, dangerous horses (or ponies) and clueless "trainers."

mst
Aug. 16, 2003, 03:46 PM
it seems to me a child/adult course designer shouldn't build a combination where it is possible to leave out strides. if its more than a two stride than who cares.

Linda Allen
Aug. 17, 2003, 08:38 AM
This proposal hasn't been discussed by the Jumper Committee yet, so be clear that this is just my own personal opinion, but I feel this is an excellent idea. I am tired as a course designer of being terrified of putting a two stride combination into a Chld or AA jumper course by mistake and then hearing trainers tell their students to do it in one stride in the jump-off "in order to win." While, like with most things in riding, one can get away with it most of the time -- when the luck runs out it results in a horrifying fall. Plus the kind of riding that it takes ups the chances for a potentially lethal mistake on the part of a horse elsewhere on the course.

Making the leaving of strides out of combinations an automatic elimination won't keep the riders that are out of control (or whose idea of bravery is misplaced) from doing it, but at least it will keep them from being rewarded for it by winning!!

Linda Allen

adhock
Aug. 17, 2003, 09:21 AM
I agree with Linda's opinion. For three shows my daughter rode in the C/A jumpers and then, fortunately, moved up. This is far less an inssue in the junior jumpers. During the time that she was in this ring, I watched, with horror, the irresponsible behavior of a number of trainers and the risk it caused to riders and horses. I couldn't believe that otherwise sane adults would put themselves or their children in such hands. My daughter, who is a fierce competitor, was instructed to rider per instruction, and not to win (even though this went against her instinct). Many children and adults in this division are given the same direction and would be solidly reprimanded for leaving out strides (and probably taken down a division--after they returned from the woodshed!). This is a division where you learn (whether chld or adult). Creating a device to reward skill versus stupidity would be worthwhile. However, I do not think that the Optimum Time device is that useful here as it penalizes those who should get the reward of "smart" riding including using efficient tracks and turns. I think that OT is better suited to the low C/A jumpers and youngest horses divisions. Also, and this is perhaps a "flare up" position, I think that the gate people and spectators should be more aggressive in flagging irresponsible training behavior that puts people and equines at risk and call the stewards more often, particularly if abusive force or language are used. These are not the type of lessons any novice needs to watch or experience.

Molly99
Aug. 17, 2003, 06:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Linda Allen:
This proposal hasn't been discussed by the Jumper Committee yet, so be clear that this is just my own personal opinion, but I feel this is an excellent idea. I am tired as a course designer of being terrified of putting a two stride combination into a Chld or AA jumper course by mistake and then hearing trainers tell their students to do it in one stride in the jump-off "in order to win." While, like with most things in riding, one can get away with it most of the time -- when the luck runs out it results in a horrifying fall. Plus the kind of riding that it takes ups the chances for a potentially lethal mistake on the part of a horse elsewhere on the course.

Making the leaving of strides out of combinations an automatic elimination won't keep the riders that are out of control (or whose idea of bravery is misplaced) from doing it, but at least it will keep them from being rewarded for it by winning!!

Linda Allen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To play devils advocate:

CD will need to them consider where the judges are sitting and place the combinations so that they can been seen. Having just sat in the judges booth for a GP where you could see the jumps but not the distance in between very well, it would be impossible to call the striding.

Additionally, I do not think it is the judges responsibility in the jumper ring to be counting strides.

When these classes are set at a higher level, the issue of running is dropped dramatically.

It is possible for CD to draw courses for those classes that do not promote the running around the course. Better education of the CD's and making the levels required higher would go further in my opinion without making the jumper ring into a new hunter ring.

Besides, who is to say that a 17+ hand horse might not be able to do the 1 stride without a problem. It should not be my call as a judge to eliminate that horse.

I understand the reasoning behind the idea, but I think that there are better ways to accomplish the same goal.

Ridin' Fool
Aug. 18, 2003, 09:12 AM
As a former A/O jumper rider and now in the A/A classes, here are my perceptions of the C/A division:

In the C/A, very often, the "best" horse and rider combination does NOT win. When I say "best", I mean the rider that puts together a smooth, effective round at a flowing, consistent pace; a rider that has solid basics and good equitation; a horse that is fit, well schooled, turns handily. Sometimes, this pair wins when the course is very technical and requires a well thought out ride, but more often than not I see this type of rider have time faults, or just get plain out beaten by the "crazies". There are many adults in this division that ride beautifully and I cheer them on in earnest, but there are many that literally make me cringe when they go around. Some have horses with incredible scope that get them out of any situation, their trainers are standing at the rail yelling "turn now", "turn right, the yellow jump", "go faster NOW". Their trainer literally coaches the entire round yelling at the side, and I've seen MANY win this way. Seems like the proposed rule change is aimed at this combination of horse/rider and trainer in order to make things safer, and not to dummy down the division.

When I first started in the C/A division, I could not stand the Optimum time classes. I thought "what a waste of $50", especially when you see trainer's with stop watches, yelling at students when to speed up and slow down. But, my tune has changed after showing in a few OT classes at the KY horse park. The courses were set so that the OT is really the smooth, flowing gallop. The courses were technical, requiring a precise, efficient ride off the gallop. There was nothing SLOW about these classes, and nothing fast, just the course designer asking riders to commit to the right pace. OT in the jump off is a fabulous format - absolutely love it! It does require you to complete inside turns and all, but not at break neck speed. Rather just being efficient and smart!

This past weekend's show at the KHP was a great example of well done course design for C/A. Very few double clears throughout. In the NAL adult classic yesterday, only 3 went clear out of 27. A lot of very good horses and seasoned adults in the class. Riders with 8 faults even got ribbons. Many complained that the course was too tough - I thought it was fantastic! It was long, very technical and the fence height was maxed out. My mare barely touched the front rail of an oxer and down it went. I was tight on time and galloped past the distance to the last jump and had it down - pretty technical mistakes all over the board. Saw a lot of horse/riders that often win in the division have 20 or more faults. Why? Because the height was actually 3'6" and course legitimately tough? It should be this way all the time, it was a great challenge. Despite all the faults, the rounds I saw were incredibly controlled and "safe" - you had to be based on the design of the course.

There has to be a way to encourage better riding out there. And if it's careful course design, holding riders accountable for leaving strides out when it's dangerous, then maybe it will raise the integrity of the division.

I don't take offense by anyone's (i.e. Findeight's comment) concerns about the division, many of them are valid as we have certainly seen our share of tragic accidents in the past two years. Funny thing though - several people asked me this weekend "why are you still in the Adults, move up already"... like the division isn't good enough. To Findeight's point, most of the adults in the division have no Olympic aspirations, and work full time jobs, have families, etc. The division certainly has its place for sure, but it seems to suffer from an true identity crisis.

CuteHunter
Aug. 18, 2003, 10:21 AM
I think the proposed rule change is a good idea- safety must always be a concern adn while I would like to see all trainers think of safety first and teach the safe effective ride instead of the all out galloping ride, we arent seeing that. Sometimes you just have to make rules to prevent serious accidents.

That being said, I think there are a lot of obstacles in figuring out how this rule will work. Where will judges sit? What if a rider truly can do a safe one stride in a two stride, shoudl they really be punished? What if there is a discrepancy between the judge and someone else (not the rider)- how do we know what really happened?

Despite the obstacles, I think the idea is a good one but there is lots to work through. It woudl be nice if we didnt have to regulate safety but until trainers and riders take it upon themselves, that is what we will have to do.

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Life goes on... Things Change (Tim McGraw)

Linda Allen
Aug. 18, 2003, 01:19 PM
Ridin'Fool, I was so impressed by your last post (and to hear the commentary on CORRECTLY SET optimum time classes), couldn't agree more with all your points.

On related topic -- that of safety -- when in Dublin I asked my Irish assistant CD (very active nationally and son of the Irish Chef d'Equip) what the statistics on serious accidents/fatalities are over there. There are so many children riding, mainly ponies for the younger ones, but substantial courses at shows held practically every day of the week in this horse-crazy country. He was amazed at the question and had never heard of a fatality of a junior show jumping (sadly a child died a couple of years ago playing on some playground equipment between classes but this was all). IMO, this makes our four fatalities in N.America between 1999 and 2003 huge by comparison, and I'd like to investigate the reasons for the disparity.

A simple rule to mandate elimination for chld and AA competitors leaving a stride out of a 1 or 2 stride combination would be a small but useful step towards not rewarding dangerous riding. (And, any judge who cannot recognize a horse leaving a full stride out of a combination -- no matter where it is from the judge's box -- shouldn't be sitting there.)

And, just because occasionally someone does it "safely" is not a reason not to penalize it. A horse could leave the ring at many venues, come back in again and finish the course, and still make the time allowed (or have the judge not see it) in some cases! Is that an argument that the rule eliminating a horse for leaving the ring before completing the course should be taken out of the book??

Linda Allen

Equitalk
Aug. 18, 2003, 01:37 PM
I would have to agree with Linda, if a judge can not tell how many strides are done in a competition at a USAE recognized show they should NOT have a judges card! We are not talking about schooling shows here!

Yes, I agree with Joe Dotoli's rule change proposal. I watch alot of trainers telling their students to gallop faster and leave out a stride in a two stride in & out if possible! This is a training travesty! trainers should be teaching Children & Adults to RIDE, not go as fast as possible. Why do we not have European style type awards???

To Note the USAE Safety committee met today and unanimously voted in favor of Joe's proposal.

Joe's continuing commitment to safety issues should be comended.

www.trianglefarms.com (http://www.trianglefarms.com)

Ash
Aug. 18, 2003, 01:38 PM
Could someone please explain how an optimum time class is run? How is it placed?

As someone who quit doing the A/A jumpers for so many of the reasons posted on this thread, I am really intrigued by this format.

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Momma Mia, here I go again....

Ridin' Fool
Aug. 18, 2003, 03:51 PM
Ash, The general purpose of an Optimum Time class is to create a course where the designer assigns an "optimum" or ideal time in which the course should be completed. It's usually a few seconds under the time allowed. A well set class, it encourages riders to stick to a consistent pace that is safe and controlled but still on a 12' stride. The rider who completes the course closest to the OT wins.

There are two formats: 1) OT in the first round only - kind of like a "controlled" speed class.
2) OT in the jump off. I prefer the latter format as it gives you an opportunity to do a jump off. It's also great in making riders be efficient without being out of control.

As I mentioned earlier, a well set OT class is wonderful. It helps you to really measure pace, to understand what is too much or too little. Also, gives great insight to what the course designer believes is an "ideal" pace. As a rider who refuses to race around in the A/A jumpers, I find the OT format incredibly fair and puts us on a very level playing field.

And let's be honest, racing around level 3 courses does the horse/ride combo no good in the long run. Yes, maybe they won a lot of C/A jumper classes, maybe they are tops in the zone points, but what happens when they get to Finals where the courses will be at their most technical? Those who displayed solid, consistent riding, who can answer technical questions while still creating a round jumper will come out on top in the end. And, will best prepare themselves for moving up to the Junior or A/O classes with greater ease.

Mustang Sally
Aug. 18, 2003, 05:20 PM
I apologize if someone has already brought this up, as I must admit I'm jumping in rather late here...but eventers (in Canada, anyway) also have an "optimum time" for cross-country at lower levels (If I recall correctly, for pre-training - novice in the States - and below; it's been a few years since I've competed myself). This rule came in after several very scary incidents of inexperienced folks tearing through their courses and hitting fences or near misses.

Although a rule won't stop a runaway horse, it certainly raised awareness amongst riders and coaches about the importance of an optimum speed at which to take fences (single elements and combinations) instead of the concept of "fastest time wins". Instead of elimination, riders are assessed "too-fast" time penalties in the same fashion as the "too-slow" penalties.

"Waste no time arguing what a good person shall be, be one."
-Marcus Aurelius

Ash
Aug. 19, 2003, 02:04 PM
Thanks Ridin Fool! If I had access to these types of classes I would have never given up on the division. What shows offer these? (I don't remember them in Fl or VT?)

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Momma Mia, here I go again....