Feeding the Hot Horse who is a Hard Keeper

[CaffeineAddict]

I'm looking for any advice or experience you have had with a horse who is a hard keeper and very hot. I have a young horse who is growing (he is nearing 18h), thin, and very hot. Currently, he is eating 6pds am/pm (12pd total) of Re-Leve feed, which is low starch, high fat. Along with that he gets unlimited coastal hay. I was giving him alfalfa but have pulled that. He is thin, and getting hotter by the day. I tried rice bran and had no luck. Any suggestions? I'd really like to cut the amount of grain he is on. Thanks!

[JB]

You might want to investigate the possibility of ulcers.

Also, what has his deworming program been like?

[CaffeineAddict]

He is on a rotating worming program through my vet and I have had him checked recently and all was well. I have thought about ulcers, I'd just rather not have to go there with a 3 yr old...

[Melyni]

Can you get a hold of Timothy or Orchard Grass?

Stay away from legume hays but look into other grass hays. A more digestible grass hay like timothy will help.

Also add in extra sugar beet pulp, 1-2lbs weighed dry, plus some oil (4-8 oz) if he will eat it.
Try feeding him 4 or 5 meals per day mostly SBP with oil and about 1-2 lbs of the Re-leve.

Add in some flax seed either whole or ground again 4-8 oz per day.

Extra magnesium, 5-10g per day to help him relax and be calmer. You can get a free sample of a magnesium supplement buy calling Foxden Equine 540-337-5450 and ask them. That way you can try the extra Mg and see if it helps before you buy any.

Good Luck
MW

[mypaintwattie]

Beet Pulp and Cool Calories 100 worked wonders for my horse.

[Seal Harbor]

Beet pulp. I'm feeding one that was thin and no longer is due to feeding beet pulp. He gets lots of timothy hay, a couple of flakes of alfalfa - and 8lbs of beet pulp dry weight, which is about 40lbs wet, and about 3 lbs of rice bran pellets and a few ounces of ground flax.

Some just have higher metabolisms and they will always need to be fed copious amounts.

Why is he getting hotter? The ulcer check is also a good idea. Check teeth as well.

[stoicfish]

He is on a rotating worming program through my vet and I have had him checked recently and all was well. I have thought about ulcers, I'd just rather not have to go there with a 3 yr old...

I am going through this with a 7 month old. And according to the pharmaceutical rep for Gastrogaurd, it is not unusual for young horses especially if they are not on grass as a main food source.
Also I would suggest pre and probiotics for a couple of months. That is less expensive and an easy fix if that is the problem. Did he ever go on antibiotics? Just make sure the product has high enough cultures to make a difference. Ration Plus is a good pre-biotic.

[leslie645]

for added caLIORIES try beet pulp and also oil. they will add caliories without the 'heat' that grain has.
since you feed grass hay you want to make sure your grain is a 14%-16% protein. it wont be enough protein if its a 10 or 12-which I just saw that the re-leve is only 12%.(not enough protein IMHO for a hard keeper)


check teeth and worming also

If it were me...and no teeth or worming or health probs. I would slowly switch the concentrate over to the best quality grass alfalfa~ given free choice. I would also give beet pulp and oil. With 24/7 turn out. I would watch for any improvement or worsening and then add a 14%-16% concentrate if needed.
but thats just me:)

When feeding a young growing horse beet pulp be careful with CAl/Phos ratio.. you can fix it by feeding 3 oz of wheatbran to every pound of beetpulp...that will correct the cal phos. (that is dry pound BTW)

best wishes
Leslie

[LauraKY]

Try Triple Crown Senior. High in fiber, low in NSC, lots of beet pulp and fat.

[kbennett322]

Buckeye ultimate finish has done wonders for my hard keeping TB mare. It is something like 25% fat (I think). Its pricey ($38/ bag) but it keeps her topline nice and round. In total she gets about 1/2 a lb a day with her AM & PM grain.

My barn also feeds her as much high quality grass hay as she can eat.

I have heard really good things about rice bran oil as a topdress for grain as well. Again, its pricey but a little goes a long way.

good luck!

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Foals can get ulcers, I don't know why a 3 year old couldn't.

[Seal Harbor]

for added caLIORIES try beet pulp and also oil. they will add caliories without the 'heat' that grain has.
since you feed grass hay you want to make sure your grain is a 14%-16% protein. it wont be enough protein if its a 10 or 12-which I just saw that the re-leve is only 12%.(not enough protein IMHO for a hard keeper)


check teeth and worming also

If it were me...and no teeth or worming or health probs. I would slowly switch the concentrate over to the best quality grass alfalfa~ given free choice. I would also give beet pulp and oil. With 24/7 turn out. I would watch for any improvement or worsening and then add a 14%-16% concentrate if needed.
but thats just me:)

When feeding a young growing horse beet pulp be careful with CAl/Phos ratio.. you can fix it by feeding 3 oz of wheatbran to every pound of beetpulp...that will correct the cal phos. (that is dry pound BTW)

best wishes
Leslie

With a young horse I want a 2:1 ratio they can go as high as 6:1 with no ill effects. I'd want to have the extra calcium for laying down bone. Why would you invert or level it out?

http://www.extension.org/pages/Feed_Management:_Managing_Dietary_Phosphorus#Calci um:Phosphorus_Ratio_for_Horses

http://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/calcium.html

http://www.ranvet.com.au/feeding_stabled_horses.htm

http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=G2807

Grass hays tend to be higher in P than Ca. Beet isn't that high in Ca, not like alfalfa. My own horse eats a diet that is all alfalfa and beet pulp. He does get a vitamin supplement that is for horses who eat 8lbs or more of alfalfa a day. He is allergic to all grass hays, corn, oats and barley. He can eat wheat bran, rice bran, flax, beet, and alfalfa. He gets flax as well but it is stabilized and fortified ground flax.

[Bogie]

What's worked for my horse is:

- unlimited grass hay
- 1 lb am/pm alfalfa pellets
- Soaked beet pulp (about 1 lb measured dry) am/pm
- Ration balancer
- Oil (1 cup am/pm)
- flax seed (1/4 cup a.m/p.m.)

I couldn't find a pelleted feed that worked for him. Rice bran has a high NSC but he's done fine on oil. I buy whatever is least expensive at Costco.

[naturalequus]

I have not read many of the above posts so I apologize if I am being a parrot, but what I have found to work with my two hard-keepers (the one is very hot): beet pulp and flax. Fats fats fats, and do some reading up on nutrition (there's a lot of info out there); also, talk to your vet as well, he/she might have some ideas (and don't be afraid to get a second or even a third opinion). Obviously though continue to search out a possible reason for his weight loss of course :D

[yellowbritches]

So, just to keep things in mind, if he is 3, that means he's still growing like a weed (obviously!). I have found 3 yr. olds can be tough to keep looking really good, especially if they are doing a lot of growing. I have watched them go from looking like a blimp one day, to a rack of bones the next, then an inch or two higher on the third day, and the whole cycle begins again.

So, honestly, unless I really feel like they are not healthy, I don't worry too much about how they look. I throw them lots of hay if they aren't on great grass and feed them appropriately for their size, the fact that they are growing, and what little work load they might have.

There is a lot of great advice here and I agree with all of it (especially looking into ulcers), but just bare in mind that he's a growing boy (think about all the Icabod Crane looking teenage human boys that their poor parents POUR food into yet all they are arms and legs) who's going to be putting a lot of calories into growing right now. I would focus on balanced nutrition and LOTS of forage and less about trying to get him fat.

[woops]

17 h hot jumper gets

3/4 scoop dry weigth beet pulp soaked
3 llbs Triple Crown Senior
2 X's a day

Yes the Senior is BP based But this works and he is sensible
and looks great.

The Senior is a higher fat feed and is the lowest on the NSC list.
I actually got tthe recommendation directly from Triple Crown's Nutritionist.

I also have him on Papaya Puree , aloe combo.

[leslie645]

With a young horse I want a 2:1 ratio they can go as high as 6:1 with no ill effects. I'd want to have the extra calcium for laying down bone. Why would you invert or level it out?

http://www.extension.org/pages/Feed_Management:_Managing_Dietary_Phosphorus#Calci um:Phosphorus_Ratio_for_Horses

http://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/calcium.html

http://www.ranvet.com.au/feeding_stabled_horses.htm

http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=G2807

Grass hays tend to be higher in P than Ca. Beet isn't that high in Ca, not like alfalfa. My own horse eats a diet that is all alfalfa and beet pulp. He does get a vitamin supplement that is for horses who eat 8lbs or more of alfalfa a day. He is allergic to all grass hays, corn, oats and barley. He can eat wheat bran, rice bran, flax, beet, and alfalfa. He gets flax as well but it is stabilized and fortified ground flax.


I didnt say level it or worse invert it...what I said was I personally would add alot of alfalfa to his diet along with beet pulp...which would offset the ratio. So I would indeed use the wheat bran on a young growing horse. :D

Ideally the ratio of calcium to phosphorus should be 2:1. Yes, it can go up to 6:1 but that isnt ideal....because......Too much calcium results in a phosphorus deficiency and impaired metabolic function. Too much phosphorus in the diet forms insoluble calcium phosphate which renders the calcium unusable; as the body continues to absorb the phosphorus, hypocalcemia—metabolic bone disease—Its a slippery slope either way.
Best Wishes
Leslie

[matryoshka]

Oddly enough, my hard keeper TB did best on a low-NSC diet. I was surprised by this, but I reasoned that every mouthful counted for more when the sugar was reduced. I also fed him alfalfa pellets (did not make him any more "hot" than usual). For him, part of the difficulty was getting enough feed into him--not that he required huge quantities, more that he wouldn't eat a lot. So every calorie had to count for something. Molasses counts for nothing, so that was out. (Yes, I treated him for ulcers. Helped his attitude but did nothing for his eating or help him keep weight on.)

Recently I added rice bran pellets to horses who struggled keeping weight on and had very good results with that. I prefer the pellets to powdered or oil since it mixes nicely with other pellets I feed.

I always wet the feed to prevent choke.

[SanctuaryStables]

I would try rice bran (pellets) and ground flax together. Worked really well for my hot TB mare who is not an easy keeper.

[JB]

Oddly enough, my hard keeper TB did best on a low-NSC diet. I was surprised by this,
Not a surprise at all. At least 1 study
showed that meals high in sugars caused a hormone to be released (starts with an L, I always forget which one) which, in way more than 50% of the horses in the group, caused them to feel full. This made them eat less forage, therefore they lost weight.

Low NSC is beneficial to every horse. It's a necessity for some.

My OTTB also gained more and more weight as I got her off all grains, even though the total calories was reducing. For example, I was feeding her 6lb of a 1700 cal/lb feed, and while she gained for a bit, she plateaued still underweight. I swapped that for 6lb of alfalfa pellets, for a loss of 4200 calories. She gained weight.

ALSO, IME, TBs seem to be a breed that doesn't do as well, in general (!) on oil. I was feeding her 2c oil - 4000 calories. I swapped that for 2lb rice bran, for a loss of about 1000 calories, and certainly not as much fat. Again, with that switch, she gained some weight.

[Dalemma]

Not a surprise at all. At least 1 study
showed that meals high in sugars caused a hormone to be released (starts with an L, I always forget which one) which, in way more than 50% of the horses in the group, caused them to feel full. This made them eat less forage, therefore they lost weight.

Low NSC is beneficial to every horse. It's a necessity for some.

My OTTB also gained more and more weight as I got her off all grains, even though the total calories was reducing. For example, I was feeding her 6lb of a 1700 cal/lb feed, and while she gained for a bit, she plateaued still underweight. I swapped that for 6lb of alfalfa pellets, for a loss of 4200 calories. She gained weight.

ALSO, IME, TBs seem to be a breed that doesn't do as well, in general (!) on oil. I was feeding her 2c oil - 4000 calories. I swapped that for 2lb rice bran, for a loss of about 1000 calories, and certainly not as much fat. Again, with that switch, she gained some weight.


Yup would have to agree with this .........low sugar diet with some sort of fat supplementation....oil, rice bran, cool calories.

Dalemma

[ladipus]

What works wonders for my FORMER hard keeping Tb's: Plain soaked beetpulp is my fiber source...then i use Progressive Nutrition's Pro Advantage Hi-Fat Formula-which is a ration balancer/extruded fat supp in one...which takes care of nutrition and fat/calories all in one shot-and its the lowest starch/sugar(NSC)way to go on the market which is the best solution for hardkeepers b/c of its digestability and low starch/sugar content whch aggrivates a horse w/ ulcers. I also recommend a probiotic such as Fastrack along w/ an ulcer supplement such as Corta Flx Uguard or Finish Lines u7 gastric aid. I paste deworm twice per year w/ Equimax followed up w/ daily dewormer

This feeding program has transformed my former hard keeping/picky eaters/nervous tb's to calm,cool,collected beautifully conditioned horses-great toplines,beautiful coats that gleam and dapple,and perfectly show hunter fat...its so full of nutrition that they even can go barefoot from so much qualityof nutrition!

They also get free choice timothy/orchard grass/alfalfa mix

[DinkDunk]

My TB was getting a lot of Triple Crown and Pennfields - and still looked awful. He was dropping weight, getting hot, and extra cranky.

I switched him to 6 lbs of Alfalfa Pellets and 3 cups of Rice Bran/day and he fattened right up and turned into a happy camper.

[Eventer55]

What if you have a hot horse with ulcers and people say to keep hot horses off Alfalfa, but it's good for an ulcer horse.

What would you feed a hot ulcer horse, or is the alfalfa that important with ulcers?

[headsupheelsdown]

Nutrena XTN. If that doesn't work alone try adding Cool Calories. If you think the horse may have ulcers, try adding something for that too. After he is wormed or under any stress, add in a short course of pro-biotics. I agree with the unlimted hay.

The Nutrena XTN with Cool Calories is the miracle combo for hard keepers that are also hot.

[JB]

What if you have a hot horse with ulcers and people say to keep hot horses off Alfalfa, but it's good for an ulcer horse.

What would you feed a hot ulcer horse, or is the alfalfa that important with ulcers?

Keep in mind the horse might be "hot" due to the ulcers ;)

But if he's reactive to alfalfa, then you still want to feed an all/mostly forage diet - hay, beet pulp, etc. Adding magnesium can help - that's part of the alfalfa that helps.

[Seal Harbor]

Actually it is the calcium that buffers the acid and raises the pH in the stomach.