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View Full Version : What is the point of a Hunter/Jumper competition?



Mary in Area 1
Sep. 21, 2003, 05:32 PM
My flame suit is on, but I have to ask the question:

I trailered a boarder to a local H/J show today. I watched while a trainer schooled about a dozen ponies in the "unjudged warm-up round". She went round and round, over the jumps, beating the ponies if they stopped or ran out. Once they went around completely obediently, she handed them back to the kids.

When she had finished, a guy did the same thing for HIS kids. Then the spotlessly dressed girls went in, stuck their rearends in the air, and cantered around the courses. The ponies knew where they were going and where to change leads. They had gone over the jumps and schooled all the lines.

Everyone fussed and clapped for the little girls (and some teenagers). They got tons of ribbons and championship ribbons and trophies. Their parents were so proud. WHAT HAD THEY DONE???

They didn't braid or groom.
They didn't school the ponies.
They didn't really have to RIDE, as the ponies had seen and learned the jumps and lines.
They didn't even have to STEER or ask for the changes.

What is the difference between this and the "Little Miss America" pageant? Isn't this just modelling on horseback?

I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone. I just don't understand the point of this show. My kids grew up doing pony club and eventing and dressage shows, and this is really weird.

Court@HJ-OH
Sep. 21, 2003, 05:37 PM
I would suggest doing a search and closing this topic, other people have make claims like this.

Obviously there are bad apples at every show. Can you honestly say you think that this is how everyone does it. There are poor sports and cheaters in every discipline.

It is ridiculous for you to generalize like this!

Are you looking for an explaination or an arguement?

If you are looking for an explaination...read above or search; if not go make ridiculous antagonistic comments somewhere else. I could throw out plently of comments about the pony clubs I have seen in this area.

**Courtney**

I don't want to grow up!!!!!! I am a Toys-R-Us kid. From bikes to trains to video games its the the biggest toy store there is. Oh I don't want to grow up because if I did, then I wouldn't be a Toys-R-Us kid.

[This message was edited by Court@HJ-OH on Sep. 21, 2003 at 08:45 PM.]

dcm
Sep. 21, 2003, 05:39 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And the point of Mary in Area 1's post is what?

To flame of course. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

findeight
Sep. 21, 2003, 05:43 PM
Does sound a bit trollish.....

But if it's an honest question???

Kind of like going to one restaurant and having a lousy meal then claiming all retaurants are bad.

This poster went to some kind of backyard shindig labeled as a H/J show and saw bad riding and abuse therefore she thinks all H/J shows are the same as that one.

There is no way to even start to explain if that is what she honestly thinks.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Madison
Sep. 21, 2003, 05:44 PM
The whole way you phrased the question is indicative of a chip on your shoulder about H/J riders and/or shows, or else you are just trolling.

Perhaps the appropriate response to this question as phrased is along the lines of "nothing. there is no point. we just need a place to wear all our pretty show shirts and to spend some more money. And of course have our trainers ride our horses for us, then hold our hands when we get on them ourselves . . ." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
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http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

jessie1821
Sep. 21, 2003, 05:47 PM
I am not going to argue w/ Mary, b/c that is exactly what she is looking for. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif However, I am going to agree with the above comments, that her generalizations are rediculous and insulting. And especially insulting to those of us who are hunter/jumper riders that work very hard to get where we are.

~Jessie~

Court@HJ-OH
Sep. 21, 2003, 05:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madison:
The whole way you phrased the question is indicative of a chip on your shoulder about H/J riders and/or shows, or else you are just trolling.

Perhaps the appropriate response to this question as phrased is along the lines of "nothing. there is no point. we just need a place to wear all our pretty show shirts and to spend some more money. And of course have our trainers ride our horses for us, then hold our hands when we get on them ourselves . . ." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
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http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree. Mary, if you want a serious answer I think you should have phrased it much differently. Not just a blantent attack.

**Courtney**

I don't want to grow up!!!!!! I am a Toys-R-Us kid. From bikes to trains to video games its the the biggest toy store there is. Oh I don't want to grow up because if I did, then I wouldn't be a Toys-R-Us kid.

Ponyfreak007
Sep. 21, 2003, 06:12 PM
I know what you mean. You see these steady eddies and they go around the course perfectly becuz they have done the same thing for 5 years and going. But, there are some people that do work for there ribbons. Than all the showing is worth it because you earned it and kearned becuz YOU groomed, steered, schooled, and all the other stuff. But, I do know what you mean and I guess I kind of agree. If they can go around a course with out the rider doing ANYTHING than they shouldnt be pinned because they are in a class lower than there ability (if they actually have any.) One girl i knew had this pony that did everything right and perfect, she bought a greener pony and boom, boom, boom... she ALWAYS fell off. I also think that cleaning your own pony & tack is a good thing because it builds responsibility, character, and it builds a better bond between you and the pony. Soo... I do agree but you should go to more shows and you will find out that they arent all like that!

~ Chelsea

DMK
Sep. 21, 2003, 06:20 PM
I'm confused... Do you want to know what the point of a h/j competition is, or do you want to know what the point of a h/j competition for these TWO trainers' students at this ONE show?

The answer to the former is to get to the other side of X fences safely and quite possibly in style, maybe earn some money/ribbons or points, and to just generally come away with a feeling of utter exhaustion and accomplishment. As to the latter, I haven't a clue.

Now me personally? I have questions. I went to the grocery store the other day and damned if there wasn't a bad apple sitting right out on top of the pile. What is the point of eating apples if they are all rotten? I mean I grew up eating apples that weren't rotten, so I don't get why people eat rotten apples. Can somebody explain it to me? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

***************

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Madison
Sep. 21, 2003, 06:26 PM
LOL, DMK http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

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mizzwade
Sep. 21, 2003, 06:27 PM
Please don't feed the trolls............. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

mizzwade

AreYouKidding
Sep. 21, 2003, 06:36 PM
Ya know, I hate to say this but this is starting to get a lot more common. All the adults at my barn talk about their old off the track thoroughbreds, and now there's a lot of kids sitting on push button horses. NOT TO SAY EVERYONE IS LIKE THIS!!! But you know what would be awesome?? A horsemanship challenge at one of the indoors shows. It could take a riding score, a written test score, and then a practicum. They have one at Pony Finals and it's really cool!!
Lindsay Sceats

Giddy-up
Sep. 21, 2003, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mizzwade:
Please don't feed the trolls............. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

mizzwade<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but I can't help myself. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Way back when good ole' Chris got off the boat, he looked around and said "Golly, what ever should we do on weekends here in this new country?". So he chatted with the Indians & saw what horses they had to offer. Chris decided to have the Queen schelp some of the fine blooded royalty horses over so he could compare & deal. Hence, the first "horse trade" takes place. Now that everybody was mounted up, each weekend there was a gathering of people to show off their horses & abilities. And that is how horse showing started & morphed into the 5 day extravaganzas we now know and love!

Betcha you missed that part of History 101!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Schatten
Sep. 21, 2003, 06:55 PM
guys, come on, she HAS a point.

i mean, perhaps not for the adults, but for the little 8 year old kids. what IS the point for a lot of them?
Do you think they are learning horsemanship, sportsmanship or any of those things by this? no, probably not.

http://community.webshots.com/user/lskel84

AreYouKidding
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:02 PM
Ahh! Totally agree with Schatten02. My mom told me I had to braid if I wanted to horse show at age 9, and I've now braided my pony for Devon and Pony Finals and gotten compliments!

And when the next group of pros rolls around, whos going to school THEIR horses for them?
Lindsay
*Are You Kidding*
*Giorgio*

findeight
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:02 PM
Well, if the trainer got on and beat the horse/pony over the fences until the kid could get on???
I don't know what the heck was going on either...or where.

Certainly a reach to say I saw this here therefore it is the way it is everywhere.

Let's not get into this one again..please.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

dcm
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:04 PM
And what is the point of people with very little experience in h/j other than some local stuff coming over to state their opinions on a board they don't normally post to, about something one person experienced seeing two trainers at some local schooling show?

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

BreezeyHtr
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:16 PM
The point to some people is to work hard and to achieve their personal goal. The point to others (like in Mary's example) is to buy nice expensive horses so that the rider doesnt have to do a darn thing so that they can win everything.

"Life's tough! Wear a helmet!"

murdoch
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:25 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Really - what's the point to any horse competition these days...
What's the point to riding at all.

Nothing to do with horses or riding is necessary in this country (even if you've chosen to make it your source of income you have to realize this).

We ride because we like it...

We get something out of it on a personal level...

We pick our discipline to fit our personality, our horses abilities, money situation, or just by chance.

None of them are easy to do well.

That's all there is to it...

Mary in Area 1
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:26 PM
FYI: I am not trolling. I am honestly upset about what I saw today. It wasn't just two trainers. That was the way the whole day went. Not one kid rode a horse/pony that hadn't already been in the ring with a trainer, as far as I can tell. I was really, honestly interested if this was a commonplace occurance at the H/J shows.

If you are all representatives of your sport, then would you please explain why the trainers are allowed to school the ponies, why the trainers can yell to the kids in the ring during their rounds (and tell them which fence is next???) Is this allowed at rated shows?

I truly don't understand what that proves that the kids can do.

DMK is the only one of you who attempted to tell me, and she wrote: the point "is to get to the other side of X fences safely and quite possibly in style, maybe earn some money/ribbons or points, and to just generally come away with a feeling of utter exhaustion and accomplishment."

But who is responsible for getting to the other side safely if the child is just a passenger? What is the point of "style"? Other than exhaustion, which I can't argue, what have these children "accomplished"?

woudn'tYOUliketoknow?
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
FYI: I am not trolling. I am honestly upset about what I saw today. It wasn't just two trainers. That was the way the whole day went. Not one kid rode a horse/pony that hadn't already been in the ring with a trainer, as far as I can tell. I was really, honestly interested if this was a commonplace occurance at the H/J shows.

If you are all representatives of your sport, then would you please explain why the trainers are allowed to school the ponies, why the trainers can yell to the kids in the ring during their rounds (and tell them which fence is next???) Is this allowed at rated shows?

I truly don't understand what that proves that the kids can do.

DMK is the only one of you who attempted to tell me, and she wrote: the point "is to get to the other side of X fences safely and quite possibly in style, maybe earn some money/ribbons or points, and to just generally come away with a feeling of utter exhaustion and accomplishment."

But who is responsible for getting to the other side safely if the child is just a passenger? What is the point of "style"? Other than exhaustion, which I can't argue, what have these children "accomplished"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

umm...ok i have issues with this entirely...but...i really highly doubt that not a single horse went in the ring without a trainer on it. when i first bought my horse, my trainer got on it. she never got on it after that unless i was having an issue with him, or i felt like he was "off" in some way and wanted her to feel it, or if i just felt he needed a little "tune up" to remind him of some things http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif however, some people have their professional show their horse for a LARGE number of reasons- maybe the horse is for sale, so they have it done in the first years then they do it in the juniors/amateur owners, or maybe it's really green so the pro rides it in the pre-greens and then they do the adults/childrens...or maybe it's an older packer that just needed tuning up in the regulars...or maybe, just maybe, it's none of the above, but the individual is just lucky enough to be able to afford to campaign their horse in two divisions and the horse is fancy and durable enough to be successful in both...but aaaaaah i hate people who fly off the handle about professionals riding clients horses...it's always done for a reason, and just because a pro DOESN'T ride your horse doesn't make you a better rider than someone who has a pro that DOES.

dcm
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
FYI: I am not trolling. I am honestly upset about what I saw today. It wasn't just two trainers. That was the way the whole day went. Not one kid rode a horse/pony that hadn't already been in the ring with a trainer, as far as I can tell. I was really, honestly interested if this was a commonplace occurance at the H/J shows.

What a terrible experience for you if this was your first and only exposure to h/j. I can assure you this is not the norm.

If you are all representatives of your sport, then would you please explain why the trainers are allowed to school the ponies, why the trainers can yell to the kids in the ring during their rounds (and tell them which fence is next???) Is this allowed at rated shows?

If it is a schooling show, then they are there to get a good experience. My dtr shows mostly local, and I can tell you we do not see the trainers riding like you did. As far as the trainers telling them which fence is next, how is that any different from someone calling a dressage test?

I truly don't understand what that proves that the kids can do.

DMK is the only one of you who attempted to tell me, and she wrote: the point "is to get to the other side of X fences safely and quite possibly in style, maybe earn some money/ribbons or points, and to just generally come away with a feeling of utter exhaustion and accomplishment."

But who is responsible for getting to the other side safely if the child is just a passenger? What is the point of "style"? Other than exhaustion, which I can't argue, what have these children "accomplished"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this was a schooling show, which I tend to believe it was, then the point of this show was to give the kids a good showing experience. At that level, "style" does not count. Getting around the course is what counts. And yes, there are packers who could do the course with no one on their backs, but there are packers in every discipline.

And no, I am not saying that this is the norm even at schooling shows. My dtr started at a local winter schooling series that is well attended. No one rode her horse before she went into the ring (in fact, I don't recall many trainers riding at all), but her trainer did tell her the course when it looked like she was lost. She did actually get lost once: when she jumped the last fence, she was so busy trying to get her spots she just continued to the next line. Her first dq. It was a bummer, but quite humorous when we look back.

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

Beau Peep
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:46 PM
Well generally speaking, most people come to shows to have fun. Nowadays you tend to see lots of kids coming for ribbons, or points. But why would they come if they just want to feel nervous or pressured? Now really, they are only kids, the ribbons shouldn't matter. Not to say that there aren't people out there who would dissagree though. And how can they have fun if they have to go out there and fall off their ponies in every class? I know there are lots of riders that would like just to get around a course without complications, even with assistance from their trainers beforehand, and would feel accomplished. Others could only feel accomplished if they knew they worked real hard to get their pony to go in the ring and get over the fences without their trainer drilling the pony beforehand. The point is that it shouldn't matter. Kids should be able to come to these shows to have a good time. Even if it doesn't teach sportsmanship or horsemanship to some, but hey, if you were 8 years old, you would be there to have fun, would you not?
Especially at a schooling show. I may be able to see the point if they were competing in the Pony Finals, if none of the kids worked to get there, but honestly, what is this all about?

--------------------------
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¤Cocoa Chanel¤

fleur
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:57 PM
I think a more appropriate title for this thread is: "what was the point of THIS Specific h/j competition?" It does beg the question as to why this isn't discouraged. Sure a pro can show a horse in hunters, but why a pony? If it's for sale as a show pony, a kid should be able to show it without trainer warming it up for them first (and I agree that it is quite appalling when trainers coach a kid through a judged class!). If a kid can't navigate around a course, it's not time for a show yet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
IMO, comparing a trainer riding a pony right before a kid's class with a trainer riding a client's hunter or eq horse in a totally separate division is like comparing apples and oranges.

Madison
Sep. 21, 2003, 07:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
DMK is the only one of you who attempted to tell me, and she wrote: the point "is to get to the other side of X fences safely and quite possibly in style, maybe earn some money/ribbons or points, and to just generally come away with a feeling of utter exhaustion and accomplishment."

But who is responsible for getting to the other side safely if the child is just a passenger? What is the point of "style"? Other than exhaustion, which I can't argue, what have these children "accomplished"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DMK gave you a partial answer, but even she pointed out that your original question was phrased in a counter-productive manner, which is why you got the initial responses you did.

Local schooling shows vary widely. Some are scary, some would offer you an impressive level of competition. Unfortunately it sounds like you saw the former.

Nonetheless, bear in mind that some children are not ready to be more than just passengers, but passengers still have to steer. And yes, it happens that a kid will forget where they are going and need a fence called out. But as you go to more advanced shows, that's not as likely.

As for what's the point of style, why couldn't you ask the same of a dressage rider? Style certainly counts there. A really stylish hunter round takes a LOT of work to make it look easy. So you really shouldn't be so quick to knock it. And at the bottom line, style is simply one of the factors in hunter judging, along with strides, distances, lead changes and a host of other criteria.

If you are really curious, find a rated or larger show in your area before drawing your conclusions. And unless you know those kids experience level and what their goals/intentions were, it is virtually impossible to assess their "accomplishment" other than to say additional experience.

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http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

CuriousGeorge
Sep. 21, 2003, 08:11 PM
Mary, why does it matter to you? Having read only a few of your posts, I know you are a dyed-in-the-wool eventing rider. Your post beginning this thread would be akin to me coming over to the eventing forum to ask why those eventers have such rigid rules about having flags on their warmup fences! Can't they steer and stay out of each others' ways as they warmup?

I really wish Mary and others who think hunter riders are princesses would go watch a saddlebred show one time... it is not at all uncommon for the trainer to warm the horse up and throw the rider on 5 minutes before the class. In classes in which the horses are stripped for conformation, the TRAINER comes in and sets the horse up; the rider just focuses on getting its ears up. At least in hunterland the riders model and jog their own - usually.

Frankly, I am tired of tirades bashing specific disciplines or groups. Just because it is different or new to you does not make it bad. Now I see why the French hate American tourists who try to go around changing things... this is why I am not fond of northerners displaced to the South but I digress.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MellowM
Sep. 22, 2003, 03:26 AM
Trainers school these horses and ponies for the clients because they want them to win! After all, a winning, happy client keeps the income flowing!

Rye
Sep. 22, 2003, 03:53 AM
grrr....looks like a troll post, walks like a troll post, speaks like a troll post,....it must be a troll post.

While I may agree with a few of your comments, the broad, sweeping statements that made it seem like "every" pony was ridden by the trainer makes it really this a) inflammatory and b)doubtful.

Yes, I have seen kids and adults hop on a horse that has been schooled to death by the trainer and sit like a lump of - - - - and think they have accomplished something. Fine for them, who cares? A skilled horseman might not see this as true talent, but maybe that is all these people are capable of? Maybe this is as good as it gets for them. Again, who cares?

But I have also seen plenty of people who have greener horses that have a trainer get on and do some work to help the horse learn. Is it wrong for a trainer to train a green horse? Nope.

I have also seen plenty of adults and kids forgo assistance of a good trainer and try to show a green horse themselves before they have the riding skills to help a green horse have a positive experience in the ring...visualize Scarey, stupid distances, crashes, mega-chips and gasps of horror from the sidelines.

I have also seen plenty of adults and kids who are skilled riders work their own green horses and ponies around the course with some semblance of control and give the horse/pony a positive learning experience.

My point to you is that there are all types of riders, all types of horses with different degrees of training, and all different types of shows.

To make the type of statements that you made just displays that you were looking for a reaction, not understand.

Giddy-up
Sep. 22, 2003, 06:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MellowM:
Trainers school these horses and ponies for the clients because they want them to win! After all, a winning, happy client keeps the income flowing!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for summing up what I was going to say. Happy kid = happy parent = more money for trainer (either thru lessons, more showing, or a horse purchase).

sweetnlo
Sep. 22, 2003, 06:56 AM
and just what does mary ride??? I personally have seen more trainers "ready" horses for students at dressage shows then at H/J shows. Were you schooling your own pony when you were lil and tired?? Even what you saw as "just steering" takes effort at the age, especially when you got as early as they did. How do you know those kids didn't "assist" as best they could in the show preparations??? I'm getting SICK OF PEOPLE SAYING RIDERS ON HORSES THAT LOOK NICE AND EFFORTLESS TO RIDE ARE JUST ALONG FOR A NOT SO FREE RIDE, THE POINT OF BEING A GOOD RIDER IS TO MAKE THE HORSE LOOK GOOD AND EASY.

Magnolia
Sep. 22, 2003, 07:04 AM
For every 1 trainer beaten hunter pony, there are 50 that some kid has worked their butt off to bring to the ring.

For every yahoo at an event that shouldn't be jumping a crossrail, let alone a novice event course there are 50 that have worked and prepped and are ready to be there.

For most hunter jumper people, the point of competition is to go out and put on the best trip possible and catch a prize. The challenge of it is being perfect. It's easy to "get around" a hunter course, but can you get every lead and distance, keep a perfect pace and stay with a round jump?

The point of those people at the HJ show - could be point chasers, making parents happy, a case of naughty ponies, kids with show nerves, kids not ready to show..... who knows?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

sienna&shot's
Sep. 22, 2003, 07:05 AM
Okay... Thank you Wouldntyouliketoknow, Rye, and MellowM.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Very well said..

I have to admit that I was once a rider vying to find my place in show world.. Was it dressage, was it eventing, Hunter/Jumper.. etc..

I've found my home, and it is at a hunter/jumper barn. My mare is green, but lovely and fancy with a very large stride and big strong jump. I value my trainers assistance in helping me to figure Sienna out.

Without my trainer I wouldn't have gotten through my FIRST (schooling) show yesterday. Sienna was a silly mess when we got there and so was I!! A nervous greeny + a nervouse rider = DISASTER!!! My trainer rode her in the Warm-Ups, and one Handy Hunter Class.. They did great, didn't win a ribbon, but made it through the course. It helped me calm down so Sienna could relax.. That is why I am paying all of this D#$% money!!!!! So I can have a positive experience doing this..

I thank my trainer for supporting me through my classes yesterday, becuase I got a BLUE in my 2ND class ever(1st out of 24 entries)!!! And yes, I've worked my ass off to get there, but I am sooooo thankful to my trainer, my supportive barn mates, and of course my horse, who finally came together (with a little help from the trainer!!) Talk about a positive experience!!!

Mary, to answer your question... The point of a hunter jumper show is for people like me who enjoy making a pretty picture and work hard to get it. Those lil' 8 year olds may have only been riding a few months, and if they made it around the course, then good for them!!! They are working just as hard as you. At the barn I am at.. They ride in 80 minute group lessons 3-4 times a week. and YES, they have to tack up, and they have to bathe their horses before the shows, etc..(please don't generalize!!) I'd like to see you go around a hunter course in perfect form, in perfect turn-out, and have no support doing so... When you win the class, let us know!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mary in Area 1
Sep. 22, 2003, 07:52 AM
I appreciated your post S&S. Thank you for answering my questions.

I agree that it is similar to having a dressage test called out, and I complain loudly about that also.

I agree about dangerous yahoos at events, and I complain about them also.

However, just as you all don't want me to generalize or get personal, I don't think S&S's final comment was necessary. I actually can and HAVE ridden quite lovely jump rounds in my life, and I pride myself on the fact that I have groomed at numerous FEI Events and Dressage shows, without "support".

sweetnlo
Sep. 22, 2003, 08:01 AM
Not to fuel the fire further, but you know the test you will be riding and when you'll ride it when going to a dressage show, I think this makes it less stressful.

DMK
Sep. 22, 2003, 08:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madison:
DMK gave you a partial answer, but even she pointed out that your original question was phrased in a counter-productive manner, which is why you got the initial responses you did.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, and I am still waiting for people to give me guidance on this whole apple issue.

As to Mary's questions about style and accomplishment, like everything else, it depends on your personal preferences. For me, getting a green horse that I bought along around 8 fences in style is considered one hell of an accomplishment. I'm here to tell you, it feels like an accomplishment even if the pro rode him in a pro division earlier in the week. But that's just me. Somebody else might have different needs.

And there is probably a valid discussion about how a lot of newcomers (young and old) to the h/j discipline (and possibly other disciplines, but I am not familiar with them) may not get enough schooling in the basics, horse care and general horsemanship (although we have had that discussion a few times already http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

But rather than make a wholesale generalization about an entire sport based on the poor evidence of two trainers at one show - which condemns your argumant to failure before it ieven gets out of the box - why not ask the specific question sans the generalization?

My personal opinion is that it does seem that too many people are not getting the horsemanship basics before they hit the show ring (or even then). And I would love to see some programs out there to address this. But bottom line is that there will ALWAYS be people who want to do it a la the shortcut method. For those people I am just grateful someone schools their pony/horse around so they don't hurt themselves. As for me, I know that wouldn't be much of a sense of accomplishment, so I try to avoid that scene. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Janet
Sep. 22, 2003, 08:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As far as the trainers telling them which fence is next, how is that any different from someone calling a dressage test? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not quite.

For one thing, in eventing (where Mary is most involved) you are NOT allowed to have the dressage test read. That is only permitted in straight dressage shows (and even then, not at "championships").

Secondly, at dresage shows where a reader is permitted, the reader must read only and EXACTLY what is printed on the test. No repititions, no extra words.

Additionally, while the trainer (or another second person) may ride a horse at a dresssage show, this is NOT permitted at an event. Only the entered rider may ride the horse.

If you are used to a discipline with strict "no unauthorized assistance", and "no one but the competitor may ride" rules, the amount of "other riders" and "outside assistance" at some h/j shows is somewhat disconcerting.

FWIW, Mary, that was a distinctly unusual hunter show. Even at the local shows around here, no one (trainer or otherwise) gets to ride the course more than once in a single class.

But, to expand on what DMK said, "the point" is to go around the course with the best "form". At a minimum, "form" includes maintaining a steady pace, with the "correct number of strides" between fences, on the correct lead, with correct lead changes, meeting every fence in neither a long nor short "spot", jumping round (not flat) with the knees up and even, and (ideally) the front feet folded up to the elbows.

"The point" is to judge how well the horses/ponies perform, NOT how well the riders ride.

Not really all that different from eventers who buy an ex-Advanced level horse to go Novice.

Having "the trainer" ride the horse in another class (or division) before the junior or amateur rider is not at all uncommon. Even when the trainer doesn't do it, it is very common for the rider to take the horse in a class that "doesn't count" before the division the rider is serious about. This is just part of the "preparation" procedure.

There have been extensive discussions about whether you learn more by riding a "difficult" horse, or by riding a "Schoolmaster". The same arguments could apply to riding a horse that has been "prepped" by the trainer.

The show you happened to see was a caricature of a normal hunter show. I am sure you can think of unrecognized events that are similarly bad caricatures of eventing.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

DMK
Sep. 22, 2003, 08:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
FWIW, Mary, that was a distinctly unusual hunter show. Even at the local shows around here, no one (trainer or otherwise) gets to ride the course more than once in a single class.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "unjudged warm up round" isn't entirely unusual, and there usually is some latitude in how many times you can take a line. For instance, WEF does not have a warm up day like most shows. It has an unjudged warm up round, and you can stay in for as many times as you like (theoretically, although I am sure they would kick you out after a while http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). The key difference is that you pay for each trip you take. But I have been charged for "one" trip even though one or two lines were taken twice.

The advantage to it at a schooling show is that presumably there is none of that Very Scary warm up stuff going on in the ring the night before or morning of, however that probably does prompt some trainers to do their student's horses for them, because unlike a regular warm up period there isn't a lot of chances to lower fences and work through problems. Not so much an excuse, mind you, but a reason.

At a large show like WEF it means technically you get a warm up, but it is a) on Tuesday, and b) it will probably be in a different ring with different fences than you will see come the weekend. But if you are at WEF, that shouldn't be your biggest challenge!

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Mary in Area 1
Sep. 22, 2003, 09:12 AM
OH, thank you. That does explain a lot. So there is a tradition of "unjudged warm-up", but it isn't over the same exact jumps in the same lines in the same ring, etc. Does the trainer usually ride the horse, or the rider? At rated shows, can a trainer shout the course and/or suggestions to the rider?

I appreciate your information.

Madison
Sep. 22, 2003, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
OH, thank you. That does explain a lot. So there is a tradition of "unjudged warm-up", but it isn't over the same exact jumps in the same lines in the same ring, etc. Does the trainer usually ride the horse, or the rider? At rated shows, can a trainer shout the course and/or suggestions to the rider?

I appreciate your information.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the local shows and even many rated shows, your warm-up class is going to be in the same ring as your division, over the same jumps on the same day. That's the best option, but it can vary by show.

Whether the trainer rides the warm-up or the owner/rider does depends on the horse and rider's needs. For example, right now we are slowly moving my horse up to 3'. At a recent A show, my trainer took her in the warm-up at 3' and the 3' division b/c I'm not ready for that yet. But on the other days I rode, at lower fence heights. So it depends on the situation as to who rides the warm-up.

At rated shows, yes, trainers still stand at the in-gate and coach from there. But a) it is not likely to be shouted, more likely just as they come by the end of the ring where the trainer is and b) it is more likely small points like pick your hands up, shorten your reins, bring your body back, "whoa" if the horse is getting to forward and the rider isn't adjusting, etc . . . rather than "outside line" or "single oxer".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

[This message was edited by Madison on Sep. 22, 2003 at 01:12 PM.]

Janet
Sep. 22, 2003, 09:45 AM
What I see around here (in place of "unjudged warmup" rounds) is that they open the show ring for schooling in the morning before the show starts (both reg and unrec) ,and often during the lunch break (mor often at unrec). There you get to practice the same lines and courses as during the show itself.

At the recognized shows, they usually add the final "decorations" after the warm up period, so there is at least a small difference in the fence appearance.

I USUALLY see the primary rider (rather than the trainer) riding in this warm-up period, but with the trainer "directing".

And "outside assistance" can backfire. As I was taking my ("I don't want to be an eventer") mare around a hunter course, I heard my trainer say "pace" as we went past the in gate. So, even though I thought I had plenty of pace, I put my leg on, and completely over-rode the next line. Turns out, what she said was "too much pace", but I never heard the first two words!

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

JumperQueen
Sep. 22, 2003, 09:52 AM
Alright...

There are people like this in EVERY discipline!! It cannot be categorized as JUST H/J people. I have seen it in eventing and western disciplines as well. I know we H/J's are stereotyped to be the "snobby" and "stuck-up", but that doesn't mean that most of us out there don't work REALLY hard for our ribbons, championships and trophies.

Of course there are the people that get things handed to them, and it's not going to be thought of as fair, but it comes w/ the sport and we just have to learn how to deal and exhibit good sportsmanship. Eventually, the one who has worked the hardest and tried their best will come out on top.

The key to happiness is having dreams. The key to success is making your dreams come true." Anonymous

DMK
Sep. 22, 2003, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
OH, thank you. That does explain a lot. So there is a tradition of "unjudged warm-up", but it isn't over the same exact jumps in the same lines in the same ring, etc. Does the trainer usually ride the horse, or the rider? At rated shows, can a trainer shout the course and/or suggestions to the rider?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as WEF's unjudged warm up, it's probably the trainer who schools th ehorse, but that has as much to do with the day it is held as anything else. On "Tuesday" all the ammies are at home earning mucho dinero to pay for WEF. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

At other A shows you may (or may not) get in the ring up until Thursday or Friday to school (after the day's classes are over), but the course will be changed after schooling for the next day's classes. Still, there are generally classes before that may give you a chance to get a feel for the course. In my case, "Adult Equitation" is DMK-ese for "Warm Up Round" - there is generally very little equitation going on, and much amazement when actual placings occur.

Schooling shows are often a vicitm of what they are as much as anything else. They only last one day and are limited in the amount of help they might have available, so any warm up has to be the night before or morning of the show, and over the same course as they will show over. But that is OK - they are schooling shows, they should be easier.

In most cases, it is harder and harder to school or prep your horse before a class as you advance to bigger shows with (presumably) a higher level of competition. In any event you should be able to go in "cold" as you progress or at least advanced to a trainer who can get you a good "go in cold" horse for the occassion. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

b328
Sep. 22, 2003, 10:00 AM
I am not trying to be argumentative, but at a rated show, I have never seen a trainer shout out suggestions to a student while they are on course. I have seen trainers stand at the rail during a flat class, maybe in a corner, and whisper a suggestion, like thumbs up, but not loud enough for the judge to hear (and frequently not loud enough for the student either!). The only times I have seen a trainer shout out instructions is if the course is completely shot and the rider/ horse are in danger- and that is very rare. I would say the schooling show Mary was at is the exception, not the rule.

As far as why some people have trainer's prep the horse, there are many different reasons. For example, there is someone in my barn who has our trainer prep her horse, but it is because she can't get enough time off of work to be at the show extra days.

rider11
Sep. 22, 2003, 11:47 AM
So what is the point of showing for kids if the trainers school their ponies?

How about a good, happy experience so they want to continue to show and can eventually school the ponies themselves!

We make our little kids get their ponies over the jumps in lessons and deal with the 'evil' pony things that happen. But at a horse show when the kids are young or starting to show - they are already nervous/scared/zoned out. Why torture them by putting them on their pony first? If you know the pony is a little spooky at jumps the first time around, or is a little high - it is a situation for disaster.

Anyone who says otherwise I'm sure can not honestly say that they thought clearly in the show ring when they were starting out. You zone out and go along for the ride until you are comfortable in the ring through EXPERIENCE!

For the person who asked the orginal question - Have you ever tried to coach a little kid at their first horse shows? You are lucky if you get them to listen to 1 thing you say - much less how to get the changes and get a dodgy pony over fences.

hifi
Sep. 22, 2003, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jessie1821:
I am not going to argue w/ Mary, b/c that is exactly what she is looking for. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif However, I am going to agree with the above comments, that her generalizations are rediculous and insulting. And especially insulting to those of us who are hunter/jumper riders that work very hard to get where we are.

~Jessie~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
DITTO

Poindexter, may he rest in peace.
Certified Thread Killer
www.melodicfarms.com (http://www.melodicfarms.com)

SCAllstarzHntrRyder
Sep. 22, 2003, 12:38 PM
I can completely understand where everyone is coming from. Mary has a good point, in fact there are tons of children that " go along for the ride" at nicer shows, but most judges recognize that, but if its in a hunter class then it wouldnt matter would it, b/c they are judging whats UNDER THE SADDLE and not what goes on above it. Then there are those that work their butts off 24/7 to make the horse look as simple and easy as can be, and those are the best riders. And as for trainers riding horses or ponies... sometimes if a pony or horse is acting up they need to get on and feel what exactly is happening so that they can correct it. Otherwise I do agree that its sad for it to get to the point of a trainer working the poor pony to death so the child can just sit there. But hey, yah win some, yah loose some, yah steal sum, u get robbed of some.

~Mirage~
~Miss Money Penny~
~Foot Note~
Heidi S AKA Evil Twin

Mary in Area 1
Sep. 22, 2003, 01:18 PM
well, then, if the point is just to have a kid and pony go to a show, even if the kid and/or pony is not competent or experienced enough for the show yet, then is the POINT of these low-level classes for the trainers to make money?

I'm not just being difficult, I just think if the kid is not listening, or too nervous or zoned out and the pony is naughty, then THEY AREN'T READY TO SHOW.

HSM
Sep. 22, 2003, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
well, then, if the point is just to have a kid and pony go to a show, even if the kid and/or pony is not competent or experienced enough for the show yet, then is the POINT of these low-level classes for the trainers to make money?

I'm not just being difficult, I just think if the kid is not listening, or too nervous or zoned out and the pony is naughty, then THEY AREN'T READY TO SHOW.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I think you are being difficult.

How is a child supposed to become comfortable with going to a show if they never go to a show? That thinking is akin to not being able to find a job because you have no experience, but no one will hire you to give you that experience. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif A schooling show is where kids (or adults) go to become comfortable with the experience of riding at a show. Which is very different from riding in a lesson.

Read rider11's post again - it was right on the money.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

sweetnlo
Sep. 22, 2003, 01:40 PM
U'r trying to compare acting class with opening night in front of a large audience. No lesson can really prepare you or especially the horse/pony's nerves for a show. And training these kids and ponies and thier parents is the hardest dollar I've ever watched someone earn.

Ketch
Sep. 22, 2003, 01:43 PM
Amen, HSM. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif You took the words right out of my mouth!

HSM
Sep. 22, 2003, 01:43 PM
Very good analogy sweetnlo.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

JstImgnPny
Sep. 22, 2003, 01:53 PM
Wow...this troll is getting just what she wants. A fight. We all know she's wrong...but we need to post the sign DONT FEED THE TROLLS.

|| Kate & Star ||

sienna&shot's
Sep. 22, 2003, 01:57 PM
Thank you HSM and Rider11... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Good points!!

Ketch
Sep. 22, 2003, 02:08 PM
JstImgn, I see your point, but at the same time, this person is so WRONG that it seems to me she needs to be corrected. I would love to see her get on a horse (any horse, even one schooled by a trainer) and find 8 flawless, to-the-center, knees-up-to-the-chin jumps, all the while making it look effortless. It ain't as simple as it looks, and I for one am passionate about people who are ignorant of our sport realizing that fact.

Lord Helpus
Sep. 22, 2003, 02:09 PM
I went to an event the other week. And sat and watched the novice stadium rounds. I saw round after round of kids on rank horses who did not have a concept of which lead they were on, of cantering to the jumps in a rhythm, of the concept of related distances (one line was ridden in 3 strides, all the way up to 6 strides), of how to get a horse to a jump in balance so that the horse could do more than fall over it.

Damn! Why do these kids go to these competitions when they are not learning anything (other than how to survive to live to do this another day?)

And the worst part was that, after every "clean" round (I guess that is defined by 8 consecutive jumps whose hight remained constant before and after the horses lept over it) parents and friends CLAPPED like the kid had actually done something wonderful other than read the numbered jumps in the proper order and remained on the horse's back for the 60 seconds they were in the ring. I saw little other examples of actual horsemanship during the time period I watched.

Please, can someone explain to me why these kids do this when they are clearly such marginal riders that they are one step above being carted of to the hospital? Yet they think that they have done something really wonderful...

Mary in Area 1 must know.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When life gives you crap, make crapenade.

Vandy
Sep. 22, 2003, 02:16 PM
Lord Helpus - AMEN!

FatAppyRosie
Sep. 22, 2003, 02:24 PM
YOu remember that saying we learned in grade school:

You can't judge others til you have walked a mile in their shoes?

Mary, I think it is about time for you to start walking, maybe that will change you views, but then again maybe not...

We burn up the city, we're really a fright, Drink up,me 'earties, yo ho! We're rascals, scoundrels, villans and knaves, Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho! We're devils and black sheep,really bad eggs,Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me!
http://community.webshots.com/user/ifihadwords4u

Lucille
Sep. 22, 2003, 02:29 PM
Why is it that any time a person posts a controversial thread, they get flamed?
Why can't you debate without getting personal??
I've been on the show circuit for years and have witnessed many things, good and bad!
I don't get it, why all the hostility over a simple question? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

eclipse
Sep. 22, 2003, 02:34 PM
Could it be that these are actually school horses at a show. If so, then it would make sense to have the trainer warm the horses up & then the kids just get on & ride. Can you imagine how tired these horses would be, if every kid who rides them warmed them up!! (ie. One horse warms up 6 times for 6 kids, versus 1 warmup with a trainer.)

"My head's not empty, it's just full of crap"

JAGold
Sep. 22, 2003, 02:48 PM
The two sports simply have different competitive standards and goals. Events reward the ability of horse and rider to navigate varied, imposing obstacles over terrain. Hunters stress finesse. There are different ways of preparing immediately before entering the ring to maximize the chance of demonstrating either bravery or finesse.

The preparation that takes place immediately before a competition should not be considered indicitave of the overall goals of the sport. For example, if I am riding a particularly sticky horse at an event, I will hand gallop the oxer in the XC warmup immediately before entering the start box. That's not to say that event riders always take flyers at fences (indeed, as Mary knows, we value the deep spot). At home, I would tend to work with the same horse on moving off my leg, jumping from a deep distance, and over a variety of "scary" fences. But at the show, tt's just one way of preparing the horse to be BOLD when we go out there -- not the overall training picture. Similarly, the kids whose trainers schooled their horses at the show do take lessons at home, where they are the ones who get the job done.

Ultimately, everyone's goal at a show is sucess. It's how sucess is defined that varies between diciplines and for individuals. But what you see in the warm-up is basically a short cut to short term sucess on a given day. What you don't see is the homework that underlies that sucess (or at least the attempt). --Jess

Lord Helpus
Sep. 22, 2003, 03:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucille:
I don't get it, why all the hostility over a simple question? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that is where you err -- it was not a simple question. It was a passive aggressive attack on the hunter world by a person who saw one tiny corner of it for a part of one day.

And, having grown up in my family I am WORLD CHAMPION in "Passive Aggressive comment spotting". I have a trofee, an a ribbin, an everthang.

In our family we never actually criticized. We "made observations" which, if taken word by word, could be construed as a simple statement. But, when looked at considering their tone and in contest were actually scathingly critical with an "I am smarter than you are" tinge thrown in for good measure.

If someone came on the BB and asked what the benefits and/or reasons were of having a trainer ride a horse in a warm up class, she would have gotten the consideration such a good question deserved.

But she came over here with giant chip on shoulder, and has continued to argue that the hunter world is a bunch of hogwash, based on her very limited experience watching it.

If I took my above post over to the eventing board, would you be surprised it I was met with hostility? I sure wouldn't. The only difference is that I parodied passive aggressive, whereas Mary is an artist at it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When life gives you crap, make crapenade.

findeight
Sep. 22, 2003, 03:11 PM
Mary...although there is little excuse for mounting any kiddie on anything that has to be pounded into the ground to insure a safe round..there is nothing wrong with 2 day a week riders hopping on schoolies at a small schooling show to see if they like it.
I suspect this may be part of what you saw...casual hobby 8 year olds testing the water.
Again-they should NOT have been on anything that required a pro ride and would not be in many barns.

These little tykes may have been simply on a lark and they hardly represent all young H/J competitors.

On the other hand...I have witnessed small kids on ratty ponies jump around a Hunter course and miss every jump, never get a lead change...but it's OK because they do all their own work http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif then they whine about the winners getting "too much help" on expensive ponies-totally miss the point they were judged against a standard of perfection the other came closer to.

It's not OK at all. The point of a Hunter round is a smooth and even pace, meeting each jump the same, controllable around the corners and on the closing courtesy circle, dead on lead changes or changing mid air over the fence.
That's the standard.

They don't give extra points because you do it all yourself in the Hunters...points are for perfection.
And it frequently takes the help of a good pro to acheive that.

Hunters may be different from Pony Club or Eventing...doesn't mean they are worse-or better-just different.

The horse world in general has been notorious for closing their minds against anything that doesn't fit their own definitions.

Learn as much as you can BEFORE forming opinions.

Like Lordhelpus, I have seen some horrendous riding in lower level Dressage and Eventing. Neither one of us projects that any further then the competition we are watching or the riders and their "trainers" in front of us.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

HunterJumperz
Sep. 22, 2003, 03:12 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
They didn't braid or groom.
They didn't school the ponies.
They didn't really have to RIDE, as the ponies had seen and learned the jumps and lines.
They didn't even have to STEER or ask for the changes.
QUOTE]

I didn't want to get involved, but the generalities bugged me.

"They didn't braid or groom. "----Did you watch these ponies from the exact beginning of the morning and see that the children didn't do a thing to get ready to show the ponies? And you said it was a local show, so braiding is not a requirement, nor would I expect a child to braid-I pay a braider, so does that make me less dedicated?

"They didn't school the ponies."------No you did not see them school their ponies before their class on that day, but does that mean that the children do not actively ride in lessons, especially the day before the show? My trainer schools my horse for me when we get to the show. She is a young green horse, and I am a green rider, we both need a professional tune up when we get to the show.


"They didn't really have to RIDE, as the ponies had seen and learned the jumps and lines.
They didn't even have to STEER or ask for the changes."-----I seriously doubt that the trainer schooling the ponies would automatically make them animatrons in the ring with the kids. They don't just walk into the ring and know exactly what to do without any direction from the rider, so yes the kids are working their buts off to make the pony go it's best. Does my trainer schooling her over a course make her an automatic ride? NO- I still have to go in the ring and ride.

If there is a trainer out there who can make my mare into an auto packer just by schooling it in the ring before I got on, please let me know who they are cause I have some business for them! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Jen
hunterjumperz@aol.com
www.angelfire.com/fl4/Ridgepoint (http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/Ridgepoint)
<A HREF="http://www.lakewalescarwash.com/fancy.html" TARGET=_blank>
Fancy This- my girl </A>http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mary in Area 1
Sep. 22, 2003, 03:31 PM
I think that I DID have a negative view of this particular type of competition when I posted my first post. I still don't think it rewards children for RIDING or HORSEMANSHIP, but I guess it does do something for their experience (and for green ponies) in the ring.

As I stated at the beginning and several times throughout this post, I am not condemning all H/J shows, just this TYPE of show. I also truly wondered how much of this behavior is carried over to the A rated shows. Many of you have responded thoughtfully and brought a number of issues to my attention which I hadn't realized before. Thank you for that.

For those of you who were rude, nasty and accused me of trolling: you have given this H/J board a taint of your own making. I asked a reasonable question. No, it wasn't reviewed by the CEEB for world-wide objectivity, but it was an honest question. You should realize that this board is your chance to develop and manipulate PR for your sport. The intelligent people who responded politely to my questions actually DID change my mind about my generalizations!

Mary in Area 1
Sep. 22, 2003, 05:57 PM
Gee, I guess people were more interested in this thread when you thought I was just trolling. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

dogchushu
Sep. 22, 2003, 07:46 PM
Last year, a couple barns in my area had a schooling show designed for once a week lesson kids on school ponies. These are kids who would never go to a show otherwise, but have heard a lot about it and get stars in their eyes when thinking about "going to a SHOW!"

They got there early the day of the show to groom their ponies. By "grooming" think brushing and fussing over them. The ponies were braided and had already been bathed. Remember, these were once a week lesson kids who haven't learned to braid. And some were too little to really to more than run a brush softly over a beloved pony.

Some of the working students gave the ponies good rides the day before the show. Not to make them safe (they're already that in spades), but just to help make sure the ponies were tuned up so the kids could have as FUN a ride as possible.

So the kids got all gussied up in borrowed jackets and often turtle necks since they didn't have rat catchers. They rode tuned up ponies. No, they didn't really have to do a lot of work.

What was the point? They all got pretty ribbons and photos of themselves all dressed up on nicely turned out ponies. They all came out of the ring beaming! They talked about it for weeks. They all cheered for each other when they did well (and even when they didn't).

I know this isn't similar to the show you went to. But consider the fact that you went to a schooling show. Maybe these are infrequent riders who are just getting a chance to get out and have some fun. So what if the trainers made sure the ponies were tuned up to give them a fun ride (and I mean fun ride--if the ponies had to be tuned up to give them a safe ride that's another story)?

Not everyone has goals of making the Olympics, showing rated, or even showing regularly at the local level. Some just like to get on a pony and have fun with it. Is that really all that wrong?



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

AOHunter2002
Sep. 22, 2003, 08:25 PM
i really didnt want to get involved in this one because there have been SO MANY threads that have attacked hunter people that have seriously irritated me, but i just thought id throw in this food for thought:

Mary: i suggest you go watch an A system hunter show and see that what you saw doesnt even come close to comparing. Go watch the Juniors, A/O hunters, and Regular Working hunters , and maybe you'll see that the kids/ammies/pros who ride in those divisions really can ride and have worked hard to get where they are. Regardless of how expensive the horse you are riding was, you HAVE to be able to ride to find 8 good, safe distances, especially at those heights.
I have riden the hunters all my life, and i dont know much about dressage, or eventing, or any other equestrian sport. I understand that you were asking a question, but maybe if you put it differently, you wouldnt have gotten attacked. I dont make crude generalizations about eventing because i dont know anything about it!

~*~"When your horse greets you with a nicker, nuzzles your chest, and regards you with a large and liquid eye, the question of where you want to be and what you want to do has been answered"~*~

Beau Peep
Sep. 22, 2003, 08:33 PM
rider11 & dogchushu - My point exactly, except maybe better stated. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But especially for kids, the point is to have fun. Riding in front of other people, against other people, and being rated while doing so is a completely differant thing than riding at home. Especially when no one can come to your rescue like they could any other time if you got into 'trouble'. That doesn't mean they aren't good enough to be showing yet though, just that they need to learn to be relaxed and to associate showing with fun and not nerves. As for the A circuit, unless you are watching a Young Entry or Short Stirrup division that you would see trainers having to coach their kids while in the ring [unless they happen to be cantering by or if they run into a major problem while on course, such as getting run away with]. As for the schooling, in order for a kid or pony to be at an A show, they have probably had numerous lessons beforehand, maybe that would be where the pony learned to make it look so automatic and the rider make it look effortless. But schooling can be the hardest part of the show, as it is the first time the horse sees the jumps, and there are other horses zipping by. Unless you are completely confidant as a rider and the additional pressure is no problem, why put on the extra stress of schooling? And the time spent doing so also gives the pony that final tune up before he has to go in front of a judge. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
So, what you saw probably is a reflexion on the sport, depending on your perspective. But that doesn't mean that the kids don't have good sportsmanship, or that they aren't good riders, it just means they are out there to have fun. After all, why would we ride if it wasn't? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

--------------------------
Founder of the Waiting For Those Flying Changes Clique! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
¤Cocoa Chanel¤

subk
Sep. 22, 2003, 08:57 PM
Let me start by saying I'm an eventer, but I found Mary's original post in your face rude.

HOWEVER, having also spent two summers of my life working 12-16 hours a day 7 days a week on the hunter circiut I am amazed at the atypical demographic that represents the Hunter world on this BB. You must all be dye-hard do it yourselfer. I was ASTOUNDED by how many kids didn't school their own horses, tack up, braid, wash, groom or even knew how much their horse ate, what supplements (or drugs) and on and on.

Yes, there are plenty of the hardworking types, but how in the world can you deny the "do nothing but the 8 fences" are not a prevalent, integral part of the hunter scene. I've been there, I've seen it and belive me it is!

If you are an adult and helecopter in on schedule to take the reins from your trainer after he's schooled your horse, hop on and ride a course I say "you go girl, and more power to you!" If you are the parent of a KID that I descibed above I ask, "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?"

If we don't expose our kids to the possibility of failure, the challenges of stress, and the struggles of indepence how can we expect them to grow up as adults with character and the resiliences to deal with whatever life throws them? Self esteem isn't the result of success it's the result of over coming adversity and disipline. As affluent parents we are much more likely to over protect our children from short term unhappiness, totally missing out on the long term benefits kids get from dealing with adversity!

Lord Helpus the reason you don't understand why those people were clapping for horrid rounds in the Novice eventing division is because you missed the big picture. When you dare to expose your children to the possibility of failure you find a willingness to recognize even the smallest of successes.

Tollriffic
Sep. 23, 2003, 05:35 PM
I know what you mean.I am a kid,but not one with a push button horse.Everytime I go to a show I actually have to ride.Because even though my horse isnt young he hasnt shown that much so everytime I have to give him a positive ride and get him around the course.No one schools him over fences but me and when he wins a good ribbon I can always be proud and say we earned it.

findeight
Sep. 23, 2003, 05:53 PM
I've seen plenty of rounds by the above mentioned "pampered" kids who climb on a made horse that has been prepared for them...and plenty of those rounds were crap. They still have to ride them.

If that's what the child wants-to squeeze the horse into an already crowded calender-and what the parent wants to pay for?
Trainers do have to accomodate them or they'll simply take the money elsewhere.

Plenty of room for all kinds in the arena...long as they are safe.

There are many gifted riders of means working their butts off too. They can tell you what supplements every horse in the barn is on too.

You just can't generalize.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

BenRidin
Sep. 23, 2003, 06:01 PM
Thank you findeight.. you put it so much more nicely than I was about to..
It gets really old hearing people complain about kids on nice horses that don't groom for themselves.. you try spending one day in their shoes you won't be talking about how easy it is and how they aren't real riders..

~BenRidin

jessie1821
Sep. 23, 2003, 06:51 PM
"well, then, if the point is just to have a kid and pony go to a show, even if the kid and/or pony is not competent or experienced enough for the show yet, then is the POINT of these low-level classes for the trainers to make money?

I'm not just being difficult, I just think if the kid is not listening, or too nervous or zoned out and the pony is naughty, then THEY AREN'T READY TO SHOW."
Well everyone has to start some where, practice makes perfect, and I'm sure when you started showing you were nervous too. And believe it or not, there is alot to be learned at a hunter show for these smaller kids, they learn how to go around a course, and they work on their eye and their changes, etc. Then they go home and work even harder, so when they go back they will do even better. Sorry, Mary, I just think that your generalizations are quite unfair, and as a hard working hunter rider I don't appreciate them. I don't mean to offend you I just strongly disagree with some of the things you are saying.

~Jessie~

subk
Sep. 23, 2003, 07:24 PM
findeight, I'm not saying there aren't plenty of dedicated riders who know what every horse is in the barn is eating. What I am saying is that everytime this subject comes up it's like there is a whole group of people with their heads so deep in the sand they hear chinese.

When the subject of people who go to a show and have no more responsiblity than what happens on the other side of the in gate comes up, there is this great out cry here of "sterotype!" "generalization!" "let me trot out my friend who does it all!" What I'm saying is that these people are a significanly visable part of the fabric H/J showing. Are they the norm? No. Are they the exception? No. Is there something morally wrong with it? No. So why does everyone on this BB downplay the existence of this group so much?

If I was into psychobable I'd wonder if you guys were in denial...

pinkhorse
Sep. 24, 2003, 07:15 AM
Here's the part that gets to me about this whole thread. The dyed-in-the-wool h/e/j people here have had conversations amongst themselves about the lack of horsemanship in the current hunter/eq/jumper world. This is the same group who jumped at the defensive when someone "outside" questioned the same things that are questioned within the world.

Perhaps Mary could have been more politic in how she worded her question but it didn't take a rocket scientist to know where she was coming from. It's right there in her name - "Area 1" - she's a new england eventer.

Having spent loads of time in both worlds, knowing how well they complement each other, knowing the advantages and disadvantages of the hunter world and the event world, she was asking a very legitimate question. Some people actually responded to it. I compete in the USAE world now and I still have the same questions she has. The advantages that the hunter world can offer the eventing world are numerous. (Someone's tart post about what they see at events points out how very much eventers could learn from the h/j people - and if you read more than the show results in the Chronicle you'll know that most of the upper level people do seek help from the top of the jumper field.) The advantages that the eventing world can offer the hunter world are even more numerous and even more adventageous. It's so obvious to eventers that the whole way the h/j world is set up works to the disadvantage of the develpment of horsemanship. It takes a bit of schooling to understand what the advantages of the hunter world are if you aren't part of it.

She's right that the majority of the responses here just uphold the stereotype. It's too bad and fairly embarassing. Luckily she was intelligent enough to get the good out of it.

Mary, I'm in New England too. I'd invite you to come to our barn - we do eventing, hunters and dressage. We know how one effects the other. We're a barn full of hard working people that ride our own horses no matter what discipline in which we show. We'd be happy to show you how the hunter world can coexist with the values of the eventer.

***
check out www.biscuithillfarm.com (http://www.biscuithillfarm.com)

Magnolia
Sep. 24, 2003, 07:58 AM
The whole pro schooling thing at hunter shows makes sense to me. For people who don't get it, go to a show with an open schooling ring and jump your horse around with 20+ other people jumping at the same time. You'd pay someone too!

I rode a stopper. I dealt with her at home, but at shows, someone schooled her for me. Why? I was petrified of jumping in a crowded schooling ring. So she got a positive ride, and I kept my nerves....

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Heather
Sep. 24, 2003, 09:06 AM
OK, I'm going to take a small tangent here, and ask another, related question. There is so much here about having a positive expereince at the show, the kids having fun, the ribbons etc.

I guess what I wonder from my honestly sadistitic eventer's perspective, is that if so much has to be done to create the perfect expereince, if these people/kids really want it bad enough.

There's a thread on the eventing BB right now about embaressing moments. I've got a zillion, and posted some of my best, including my first event which was, by any definition, pretty much a disaster. No fun (though, in retrospect, very funny), no ribbons, not even a terrifically positive expereince for a 13-year-old. But you know what, I wanted to ride and compete and do this sport SO bad that I shook it off and tried again three weeks later. And I still had a rough ride and no ribbon, but at least I completed! And so on and so forth.

Most of my friends and people on the eventing BB have similar tales, as I'm sure, some of you h/j do. But I guess my point is is that if the only way to keep kids (or adults) showing is to make everything perfect and "positive" then I can't help but think that these folks just don't want it bad enough, and by extension, don't "deserve" (and I use that word loosely/carefully) to ride and show. Because I can't help but think that someone who can't be bothered to take the bad with the good, also won't be bothered to learn all the details of horsemanship that I personally think should be mandatory for ANYBODY showing in any discipline.

Except when you start thinking abou the $$, then you can see how an ambitious trainer wanting to line their pockets would applaud this system, and be able to profit from it. The suddenly it seems to be more about the trainer's bottom line than any given expereince for a rider.

RugBug
Sep. 24, 2003, 09:37 AM
Why does every person who rides have to be cut from the same cloth? Is there a place for people who like to ride, like the competition, but that's it? Apparently not. Or at least not without a lot of criticism.

I think because most of us take our time with our horses and our commitment to them very seriously and feel privileged to be able to do so, we can't excuse the people that aren't as committed. Some people truly see their involvement with horses as a hobby akin to tennis. So what? The horses are usually still getting really good care (you can tell if they're not), isn't that what's important? Not who the care is coming from?

And if they have enough money to pay for the nicest horse or have their trainer ride it all the time, more power to them. They are obviously getting what they want out of their involvement with horses. Leave them be and let yourself feel smug in the fact that you are a better horseman.

Vandy
Sep. 24, 2003, 09:37 AM
I keep wanting to post on this thread, but most of what I would say has already been said...However I would like to respond to Heather's post:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
if so much has to be done to create the perfect expereince, if these people/kids really want it bad enough.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally disagree! Like someone said a while back, having a pro ride in the warmup hardly guarantees a perfect, fault-free ride later in the day...and it in NO WAY reflects that one "doesn't want it bad enough"!

Yes, there is a lot of preparation involved for the hunter ring whether it is done with the help of a pro or not...Like Magnolia, when I first started showing I was very thankful to have a trainer that could correctly deal with my horse's spookiness in the show ring, along with 20 other horses galloping around, which was not a factor when schooling at home. I felt like my novice-y mistakes and nerves would not be good for my horse and having my trainer work through these kinks before I got on was, IMHO, an expression of HORSEMANSHIP (zips up flame suit). Yes my trainers helped me get to the point where I could effectively prepare a horse for the show ring myself. But it took a long time. And if I didn't have the experiences showing along the way with my trainers' help, I probably wouldn't have gotten to that point.

I liked Lord Helpus' tongue-in-cheek post about a novice event. Yes, there are different ways of doing things in this sport. I just don't think that you can discount anyone's training program without having a thorough understanding of their experience and goals.

[This message was edited by Vandy on Sep. 24, 2003 at 12:49 PM.]

Lord Helpus
Sep. 24, 2003, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
I guess my point is is that if the only way to keep kids (or adults) showing is to make everything perfect and "positive" then I can't help but think that these folks just don't want it bad enough, and by extension, don't "deserve" (and I use that word loosely/carefully) to ride and show. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yanno, I was really not going to post in this thread any more because, well, just because....

But the above statement has me sitting here with my MOUTH OPEN. I am GOBSMACKED at the effrontery and holier than thou attitude that you eventers have. I am also several other things, which I will not mention on a family BB.

You come over to the H/J board and actually post that we DO NOT 'DESERVE' TO RIDE AND SHOW?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????

Oh.......................My.....................Go d.

I am so happy that, when I grew up both showing and eventing in Area 1, I decided to go with the show world. I cannot imagine having to deal with the holier than thou attitude that eventers have. Too bad they do not have the riding skills to go along with it. Then, maybe they would not be so pitiable.

You know what hunter riders DO have? Class. The class to not go into the territory of another discipline and post such CR*P as the above statement.

Go back to your board and talk among yourselves about the "welcome" you received over here. Just don't make us listen to it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When life gives you crap, make crapenade.

dogchushu
Sep. 24, 2003, 10:06 AM
Heather, I'll try to be nice and assume you were unclear and didn't really mean that hunter riders don't "deserve" to show. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Frankly, as long as the horse is treated well, the rider is appropriately mounted and safe in the ring, and isn't a shamateur, anyone who can afford the entry fees "deserves" to be there. Frankly, I enjoy taking care of my horse more than I enjoy showing. But that's my preference. Others maybe have different ways to enjoy horses or, frankly, don't have the time.

As to whether hunter rides HAVE to make everything perfect in order to ride, I think you've got it backwards. It's not that everything HAS to be perfect in order to go into the ring. It's just that most competitors want to do whatever is in their control to make conditions as perfect as possible.

Depending different individuals budgets, skill sets, and personal preferences, they may do that in different ways. Some may have a trainer warm up their horse for them. Many others don't. There are many reasons why different individuals choose differently.

Don't forget that in the hunter class that you've paid a small fortune for, you have to nail ALL 8 jumps. It's not like dressage where you can have one less than stellar movement but make up for it by being exceptional on the others. 7 beautiful fences with great lead changes won't put you in the ribbons if you eat fence #8. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sure, hunter riders take the good with the bad. There are many times when conditions are far from ideal (or downright crappy) but it's what you've got so you ride through it and deal with it.

But you do try to control what you can: by setting up green riders and green horses to succed in their first few shows when their nerves are the toughest things there; by getting your horse in the best mindset for his class prior to going into the ring; etc.



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

MsRidiculous
Sep. 24, 2003, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am so happy that, when I grew up both showing and eventing in Area 1, I decided to go with the show world. I cannot imagine having to deal with the holier than thou attitude that eventers have. Too bad they do not have the riding skills to go along with it. Then, maybe they would not be so pitiable.

You know what hunter riders DO have? Class. The class to not go into the territory of another discipline and post such CR*P as the above statement.

Go back to your board and talk among yourselves about the "welcome" you received over here. Just don't make us listen to it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My goodness, that was pretty hypocritical.

-Amanda

www.risingstarfarm.net (http://www.risingstarfarm.net)

wanderlust
Sep. 24, 2003, 10:33 AM
Oh, I swore I wasn't going to respond to this... I love both sports, have done both sports and get completely annoyed with all the generalizations.

dogchushu, thank you for the well thought-out post. Excellent explanation of why hunter riders prepare the way they do.

LH- I agree that Heather's observation was a bit over the top, but if you want to generalize hunter riders vs. novice level eventers, lets at least try to find a reasonable comparison.

I've seen lots of scary riding at lower level events recently. I also, much to my surprise, saw just as much absolutely hideously horrible riding in the AA's at Menlo. Yes, Menlo. Now, consider that we are comparing (to generalize) a kid mounted on a $1500 ottb or mutt to an adult on a $35,000+ TB or WB both jumping 3' courses, with the eventing course being more turns, jumping efforts and most likely NOT measured entirely on a 12' stride. And the horse has never seen the course before, nor has he been schooled by a pro in the past three days. I could keep going, but is it a fair comparison to make?

If you really want to compare, wouldn't it make more sense to compare the junior hunters with prelim level junior eventers? Or the open workings with Intermediate/advanced? By that point, you are not going to see many scary rides in either discipline.

And to generalize that one sport has more class than the others? You just disproved it with this statement:

"I cannot imagine having to deal with the holier than thou attitude that eventers have. Too bad they do not have the riding skills to go along with it. Then, maybe they would not be so pitiable."

Now that's quite a statement to come from someone who claims to have more class. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think the only thing you can generalize that hunter riders have more of than eventers is spending money, judging from what a week at an A show costs. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[This message was edited by Master Tally on Sep. 24, 2003 at 06:03 PM.]

Heather
Sep. 24, 2003, 10:40 AM
WHoa, whoa, whoa, I am in NO WAY saying that hunter riders don't deserve to ride and show. AT ALL. In fact, although I'll admit I wasn't clear, I wasn't even thinking specifically about the h/j discipline as I was writing--I was as much flashing back to my own days of teaching, when kids/parents thought there should never be anything bad or negative in little precious poopsie's life, as I was thiking about the specifics of this thread. However, this thread did prompt my question, so I posted it here.

Lord Helpus, take a deep breath, close your mouth, and hear me out.

I think that anybody who is brave or crazy enough to take up horsesports of any kind and be FULLY COMMITTED to the gut wrenching, joyous, heartbreaking, madcap expereince it is, has my full respect. However, I also think that anyone, in any discipline, who believes that every expereince should be "positive," "ribbon-winning," or whatnot, and doesn't have the fortitude to swallow a bad "learning expereince" type show, then that person, again regardless of discipline, doesn't deserve the gifts these generous horses give us.

I'm sorry, if the only way you continue to be interested in being around horses is based on ribbons won, and "fun" then you don't deserve them. That's the way I feel, and it sickens me as much in my own sport as any.

And as far as why isn't it OK for it be a hobby like tennis for some people. THAT has my mouth hanging open--uh, because it's a living creature and not a raquet?!?! Yes, I'm sure those "tennis raquet" horses get exquisite care from those paid to look after them. Right up until the moment they stop producing the requisite success and positive expereinces. Heck, you toss out old raquets and buy new ones right? So, too go the horses. And that's not OK with me. The horses deserve more respect than that. Again, this isn't discipline specific. And, I'm not a "never sell a horse" type of person at all. But, you know, exactly the situation I'm talking about here--heck, I've heard it complained about ON THIS BOARD a million times.

I was NOT hunter bashing. I WAS bashing a mentality that says god forbid a kid or adult have to really work and learn, and yes, just suffer a bit, for something really special and worthwhile. That's the attitude I don't get. Considering how hard so many people on this BB and this board specifically do work, and struggle, and sweat, and ride the toughies and everything else, I'm surprised there isn't more understanding of this sentiment.

dogchushu
Sep. 24, 2003, 11:23 AM
Guys, maybe the reason Lord Helpus is upset is that she has spent countless hours of blood, toil, tears, and sweat turning green OTTBs into top hunters. After all that back-breaking hard work, to see your discipline insulted is, well, offensive.

There are many, many, many hunter riders who work long, tiring hours trying to reach that perfect hunter standard. Honestly, you may not see it because the last place you want to look like you're working hard is in the show ring!

And yes, there are riders who ride a couple times a week and prefer to have braiders, grooms, trainer warm ups, etc. at shows. Perhaps they have no alternative--they have to work 50-60 hours a week to keep the horse is hay, feed, lodging, and shoes! Or, maybe, that's just what they want to do. However, it doesn't mean they don't love their horses or that the horse is "disposed of" as soon as it's no longer producing.

Yes, horses are sometimes sold when they're outgrown or the rider wants to move beyond that horse's abilities. But that's how I got my horse! If no one ever sold horses--only those of us brave enough, skilled enough, and with enough to break greenies would have them. Lord Helpus is that brave and skilled. I, most assuredly, am NOT! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

Janet
Sep. 24, 2003, 11:26 AM
You could ask a related question:

"What is the point of "any" horse competition?"

And you would get many different answers.

From "identifying the best/best trained/best ridden horse" to "having a good time hanging out with friends".

From "part of the training process for horse and rider" to "test the results of the trainign process for horse and rider".

From "separating the men from the boys" to "encouraging new people to try the sport".

From "winning ribbons" to "not getting eliminated".

And there are competitions (in all disciplines) that cater to each of these "points".

Nobody seems to think that there is something wrong with giving a blue ribbon to every entrant in a leadline class.

Some entry level competitions operate on a similaar principle.

Heather, you yourself have recently said that you learned a lot from riding some more highly trained horses (compared with the ones you have brought along yourself). I think you can make a rough analogy between riding a schoolmaster, and riding a horse that the trainer has just got off.

Just as you would "deserve" and ribbons you won riding a schoolmaster, these kids "deserve" the ribbons they win on horses the trainer has schooled.

I think the show that Mary saw is a pretty extreme example of this, and I probably wouldn't be interested in showing there. Anymore than I would be interested in competing at an event where everybody was riding (badly) on experienced horses that were very forgiving.

I know that, when I was scribing for the stadium judge at FPP, there were several cases (esp at N) where the judge said "that horse took care of her," or "I am not going to say 'Good ride' for that one" (even though it was clear).

But really, the principle of riding a "trainer prepped" horse is pretty similar to the principle of riding a "more experienced schoolmaster".

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

First Gold
Sep. 24, 2003, 11:30 AM
It appears that Mary and Heather are making generalizations. As several have already posted, that is not fair and not true. Who cares is the rider doesn't groom his/her horse at shows or if the trainer "tunes the horse up" at the show?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif As long as you like what you are doing and how you are doing it, why waste so much time judging others??

***************************************
I guess it would help to buy a ticket if I want to win the lottery...

Midge
Sep. 24, 2003, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
I'm sorry, if the only way you continue to be interested in being around horses is based on ribbons won, and "fun" then you don't deserve them. That's the way I feel, and it sickens me as much in my own sport as any. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The day it stops being fun is the day I hang up my tack. Why else would you do it????

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And as far as why isn't it OK for it be a hobby like tennis for some people. THAT has my mouth hanging open--uh, because it's a living creature and not a raquet?!?! <snip>. Heck, you toss out old raquets and buy new ones right? So, too go the horses. And that's not OK with me. The horses deserve more respect than that. Again, this isn't discipline specific. And, I'm not a "never sell a horse" type of person at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no idea what you mean here. Only people who 'respect' their horses can sell them? And who, pray tell, decides? Only winners can be sold? How much do they have to win? Heck, I would think you'd be desperate for the people who are only in it for the fun or for the ribbon to sell their horses. Then maybe they'd get to be owned by someone you deem worthy?

I don't like to see the kids stroll into the barn and watch a groom get their horse ready or don't pet and play with their horses any more than you do. But rather than being angry at them, I feel sorry for them. They miss the best part.

Bottom line, horses are a lot of different things to different people. Interest levels vary and just like with darn near everything else in the world, people are motivated by different things. I am sure some people love their cars more than some owners love their horses. Criminy! Some people think I must not love my dogs because I don't feed them from the table nor are they allowed on the furniture.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I WAS bashing a mentality that says god forbid a kid or adult have to really work and learn, and yes, just suffer a bit, for something really special and worthwhile. That's the attitude I don't get. Considering how hard so many people on this BB and this board specifically do work, and struggle, and sweat, and ride the toughies and everything else, I'm surprised there isn't more understanding of this sentiment<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Working and suffering are not necessarily positive experiences. I'd love to never do either ever again! I think your point is that for the people who work and suffer to get a toughie to the ring, the reward is so much greater. I agree and once again I feel sorry for the people who don't get that but I don't think it makes them morally bankrupt, either.

RugBug
Sep. 24, 2003, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
And as far as why isn't it OK for it be a hobby like tennis for some people. THAT has my mouth hanging open--uh, because it's a living creature and not a raquet?!?! Yes, I'm sure those "tennis raquet" horses get exquisite care from those paid to look after them. Right up until the moment they stop producing the requisite success and positive expereinces. Heck, you toss out old raquets and buy new ones right? So, too go the horses. And that's not OK with me. The horses deserve more respect than that. Again, this isn't discipline specific. And, I'm not a "never sell a horse" type of person at all. But, you know, exactly the situation I'm talking about here--heck, I've heard it complained about ON THIS BOARD a million times.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I don't mind if horses get sold because someone deems them unsuccessful. I may actually have a shot at owning one of them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But, who's the judge of what is a good reason to sell a horse? It's not okay to sell a show horse because it becomes unsuccessful (for a specific rider) but it's okay to sell a horse because the rider is incompatible with it? Is it okay to sell a horse because you want to switch disciplines but the horse isn't suitable for the new one?

IMHO, people should committ to giving their horses good care while they own them and to finding them a good situation when they decide it's time to move on, for whatever reason. Does this always happen...no. Some horses do get discarded, but being discarded from an A show barn to a smaller show barn isn't necessarily bad. It's the discards that end up in slaughterhouses that are bad...and maybe I'm niave, but it's hopefully quite a road to get from A circuit to there.

Heather
Sep. 24, 2003, 11:38 AM
But see, that's what I mean, I guess. I KNOW from her posts that Lord Helpus is an increidble rider and trainer, with a wonderful eye, who KILLS herself to achieve the top of her sport. I have nothing but admiration for her hard work and sacrifice. So I guess I'm surprised that she, of all people, doesn't at least see where I'm coming from when I say, if you aren't willing to work that hard, and have the sucky days as well as the good ones, then I don't think you deserve the gifts these horses give you?!

And truthfully, I actually (if you will note in my previous posts) never mentioned the issue of having a trainer ride the horse or prep it. I actually don't really have a problem with it, especially if we are talking about green horses or problem horses. I've certainly had a pro ride a horse of mine his first time out at prelim, to ensure HE had a positive expereince. Heck, there's been plenty of times I would've loved to hand the reins over to a pro, but that's not a part of my sport, so you suck it up and go on.

I guess at the end of the day, what I'm really lamenting here is the lack of sukcing it up I see more and more in horse sports in general. It's not really a h/j issue at all, but all the posts in this thread about "Oh, little sally needs to have a positive expereince" or "Little Johhnyy should have fun." just triggered it for me. Because life isn't always a fun and positive experience, and life with horses definately ain't, so they need to learn that at some point.

SaudiHunter
Sep. 24, 2003, 11:45 AM
Mary in Area 1:
Do you mean to say how are ribbons won in hunter/jumper competitions? That is a valid question which would have gotten you many helpful answers. To ask the "point" of something is subjective and empty. You could also ask:
"Why do these kids and their parents seem to take pride in work that they have not done?"
That is an ageless human question that will never be answered. It is not restricted to horse shows, either!

"And now my life is better than an Abba song"
-Muriel's Wedding

RugBug
Sep. 24, 2003, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:

I guess at the end of the day, what I'm really lamenting here is the lack of sukcing it up I see more and more in horse sports in general. It's not really a h/j issue at all, but all the posts in this thread about "Oh, little sally needs to have a positive expereince" or "Little Johhnyy should have fun." just triggered it for me. Because life isn't always a fun and positive experience, and life with horses definately ain't, so they need to learn that at some point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But at the end of the day do you really know whether or not these people are riding through the yucky stuff at home? No. You're just judging by what you see at a show...and show life is not home life. You are seeing a snapshot and deciding based on that snapshot that you know what the life of everyone in that picture is. .

Heather
Sep. 24, 2003, 12:12 PM
OK, fine. Here is what I think. What follows is my philosophy of horses and riding. If you agree, then you can ride in Open Hippos over Fences in Tutus for all I care. Obviously, this is a completely subjective opinion, that is wholly my own.

1. I think horses are a whole lot of work, blood, sweat, tears, and money. I think this is what makes horse sports have the hgihest of the highs and lowest of the lows. If you can't take both, then you don't belong here.

2. Every horse deserves a chance, and every horse is meant for a job. It is your duty as a rider or owner, to (a) give the horse that chance, and (b) find the horse that job. This doesn't mean "never sell" it means recognizeing the inherent worth of every horse even if it is "worthless" to you.

3. There are far too many people in every sport who would rather sell a perfectly lovely horse and buy something else rather than actually take the time and effort to learn to ride the first horse. This demonstrates a huge hole in their horsemanship.

4. Every rider should have the opportunity to log some time on a truly made/prepped/schooled horse.

5. Every rider should be required to log some time on a difficult/green/unschooled horse.

6. In general, the concept of having a work eithic, or dedication, is slowly disappearing.

7. Your horse doesn't need for you personally to oversee every moment of it's care and training. It does need you to be its advocate in all things so that it recieves proper care, training, medication, and a future, be that being sold or being retired. It is your responsibility to ensure that the horse is properly treated at all times.

8. If your trainer is more worried about you winning ribbons than learning to ride and be a good horseman, they are not serving you, and by extension you horse, well.

9. People should be grateful for the good horses in their lives. If you have one that packs your butt, be proud of the wonderful horse and tell everyone. I ride a wonderful horse at my trainer's, named Paint, and he packs my butt around! I can miss in every way possible and he works it out! There should be no shame in having a special horse like that, JUST ACKNLOWLEDGE the horse's contribution.

10. People should also be grateful for the bad/difficult horses they have int heir lives, though it's fine to not be thankful until after they are out of your life. You will learn some superior life lessons from those horses, even if they are hard to bear while you are learning them.

11. Kids who never face any challenges or adversity are not being done a service by their parents.

That is all for now--I have a lesson. But I hope this clears up what I was trying to say.

pds
Sep. 24, 2003, 02:45 PM
I just spent the last 15 min. reading this entire thread. The majority of You people should sit back and listen to yourselves http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. It's time to stop!!! Enough is enough! This is just INSANE!
Back away from you computer, get out in the barn or where ever and enjoy something you all seem to agree on (being around, working with and riding horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.) Then come back, take a deep breath and see if you all can go about this is an intelligent manner.

"He who knows most knows best how little he knows."
Thomas Jefferson

RugBug
Sep. 24, 2003, 03:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pds:
I just spent the last 15 min. reading this entire thread. The majority of You people should sit back and listen to yourselves http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. It's time to stop!!! Enough is enough! This is just INSANE!
Back away from you computer, get out in the barn or where ever and enjoy something you all seem to agree on (being around, working with and riding horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.) Then come back, take a deep breath and see if you all can go about this is an intelligent manner.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

eh, I think the problem is a lot of the people on here are too intelligent and recognized the demeaning tone of the first poster. Maybe if folks were less intelligent it would have rolled off of everyone's back with nary a comment. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DMK
Sep. 24, 2003, 03:57 PM
Heather, the corollary to your points are:

1. Life ain't perfect. Some people will never sit on anything BUT a POS horse, while others will never sit on a POS horse. Some folks in each group will recognize there could be more. Others will be perfectly happy as they are. I'm not going to judge the person who sits only on the finely tuned mount any more harshly than the person who sits on that barely broke trail ridin' horse. All that counts is that the horse is well taken care of, and the rider is happy.

2. Back in my day things were tougher, kids these days don't face enough challenges/adversity. Could be. I dunno. I can only speak for my life. I suspect the "Back In My Day" argument has been going on as long as older folks have been looking at younger generations. And I suspect if things were REALLY getting that much easier, by now we would have deteriorated to a lifeless puddle of ameoboid mass.

3. Not Enough Challenges Part Deux: Even if it's all true and things are tons easier today, it's still got to be better than sitting in front of the TV.

4. People (and Kids!) who WANT, will achieve. Let the rest stay in peace. They create excellent income earning opportunities for those that really WANT. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

5. For every person who might have the talent, but doesn't get fully rounded training, there is another one with equal potential who never gets a chance to sit on a horse. That has to be the real sin. And for every one of those tpes, there are examples of people who managed to get on a horse, or improve their horsemanship because it's what they wanted.

And I do agree with you - I wish that more kids learned more basic horsemanship. I also wish more people had more than a rudimentary knowledge of how to operate their PC. I wish people took the time to understand even the mere basics of their health insurance coverage. I wish that people paid more attention to international politics and economics. Sadly, nobody made me the arbiter of What's Really Important. Poor thinking on their part, I might add. I'd be good at it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Lord Helpus
Sep. 24, 2003, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Sadly, nobody made me the arbiter of What's Really Important. Poor thinking on their part, I might add. I'd be good at it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DMK, I agree that you would be WONDERFUL as the arbiter of WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. I hereby name you Chief Honcho and Grand Muckety-Muck in charge of Importance Determination.

Hours are flexible and compensation consists of enormous satisfaction in your job (but only if you think that Enormous Job Satisfaction is REALLY IMPORTANT).

Your new business cards are in the mail. You may get started immediately.

PS: Back in my day, horses had to walk 10 miles to be schooled. Through blinding snow an everthang. And they had to eat their oats by candlelight. Its a miracle that their eyes wuzzant ruined. These young whipper-snappers don't know what REAL work is, do they?

Why if only Lauren Hough had ridden a series of rank ole' horses who stopped twice in every round, she might have gotten good enough to be a major grand prix winner and a valued member of the USET.

OH! That's right, she IS a major grand prix winner and a valued member of the USET without sitting on rank, stupid horses. Damn! How'd that girl do it? She must have cheated..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When life gives you crap, make crapenade.

Midge
Sep. 24, 2003, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK: we would have deteriorated to a lifeless puddle of ameoboid mass.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We haven't yet? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

souvenir
Sep. 24, 2003, 05:21 PM
Well, here goes my input. From what I saw at Hunter shows and what the trainer did at the barn I trained with: The trainer did often school the horses and then the kids got on. However, what I saw was kids (and also new amateur adult riders) still making mistakes, but the horses, having been properly schooled, were more forgiving. The riders missed strides, didn't properly ask for changes, blew turns, still even screwed up diagonals in the hacks - they essentially missed most, if not all, of the subtle nuahces and maneuvers needed to really have a perfect trip - which to me, is still a great, fun challenge. However, these new riders were still in the ribbons, still maintained confidence and had a ball the entire day, all because of a horse that was properly schooled and subsequently forgiving (to a fault) of all their mistakes. They rode against those with similar capabilities and battled it out, but had confidence doing it.
Now, does this happen all the time at all barns? No. I wish it did though, because it really, at the local level, made horse showing so much fun for the newer riders.
OK, I'm done now.
Lynda

www.souvenirfarm.com (http://www.souvenirfarm.com)

dogchushu
Sep. 24, 2003, 05:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK: we would have deteriorated to a lifeless puddle of ameoboid mass.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We haven't yet? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you been looking at my aging, saggin, ever-expanding rear end again?



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

SCEqQueen
Sep. 24, 2003, 05:49 PM
I agree with Heather's philosophy. Every kid is going to learn how to ride on a dead broke school horse (in most cases) and the day will come where the kid has got to step up and get onto something that has to be RIDDEN and that pulls a stunt or two occasionally. I am not saying that ponies should not be ponies and enjoy their occasional buck or gallop while being ridden but that if kids are on them, they should be broke enough to the point where riding them is not dangerous. I understand that occasionally a trainer may have to get on a pony and jump it around on a bad day or when the kid may have lost all confidence and just cant seem to get it right but schooling every one of your kids ponies right before they go into the ring is uncalled for. If the ponies need that excessive an amount of riding then they should not be showing in begginner divisions with small children.

"Hows My Equitation? Call 1-800 Who Cares!?

Lord Helpus
Sep. 24, 2003, 06:00 PM
Well said, Lynda. If you had been around on P1, this would have been a one page thread....

The Lauren Hough's and Megan Furth's and Megan Johnstone's of the H/J world get to be Grand Prix riders in their teens BECAUSE they had the opportunity to ride well schooled horses, so that they could concentrate on whatever learning was appropriate for their level of riding at that time.

As their riding improved, the focus changed from "what do I need to do to get around 8 jumps smoothly, and in stride and with all my lead changes" to "what do I need to do to get the horse performing well" and beyond that to "what do I need to do to get this horse to give me more than he knows he has to give?"

That is HARD work and thousands of hours in the saddle were needed to get them into the Grand Prix ring in their late teens and early twenties. They crashed and burned, got sores from so many hours without stirrups and made mistakes. But they, and many like them, such as Alison Firestone and McLain Ward and many many others, put the effort and hours and sweat and pain into it to get where they got.

I attended Lauren's first walk-trot class on Misty (we were scattered around the outside of the ring to scoop her up when she fell off. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Fortunately, we weren't needed...) and I was also at Megan Johnstone's first horse show, held in a big field, with mom and dad and granddad there to proudly watch and clap. So I know that they were not born as Grand Prix riders.

Perhaps some of the kids at the show Mary went to are the future Lauren's and Alison's and Megan's. If so, they will NOT have it easy. They will work hard every step of the way. They will win and they will lose and they will learn to be happy when their goals are met, regardless of what the judge thought.

And for the others who want nothing more than to go to shows and have fun with their ponies and friends --- more power to them. Horses SHOULD be fun, at whatever level you aspire to.

Seems like the event people who have come over to this board have lost that sense of FUN and enjoyment. They seem to think that if it isn't grueling, it isn't being done right.

But "right" by whose standards? Each person gets to determine their own level of involvement and dedication. Least ways, thats the way it worked last time I noticed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When life gives you crap, make crapenade.

Midge
Sep. 24, 2003, 07:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK: we would have deteriorated to a lifeless puddle of ameoboid mass.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We haven't yet? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you been looking at my aging, saggin, ever-expanding rear end again?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have one too??? I am not alone!!!

AOHunter2002
Sep. 24, 2003, 09:23 PM
you know what gets me? the amount of people who think that there are actually horses out there that someone who has NO RIDING ABILITY can just step on and go around a course and win...people...no matter how expensive the horse is, you HAVE TO BE ABLE TO RIDE!!! gimme a break http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
your horse may be dead broke- but you still have to make good, safe decisions when on a horse- thats the beauty of a wonderful hunter round...you make it look like you dont have to do anything...that you can sit there and read the newspaper while your horse finds 8 perfect distances, does perfect corners and lead changes, and stays the EXACT same through out your course. I have a very nice hunter that i do in the A/O's and my trainer does in the regulars- but damnit...YOU HAVE TO RIDE HIM! same goes to every horse. So please...those of you that keep saying "when you get on a horse that actually has to be RIDDEN..." Stop and think about what you are saying, especially if you have never shown/ridden in the hunters! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

sorry if that is a little off topic...I just hate it when people make ignorant comments! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

~*~"When your horse greets you with a nicker, nuzzles your chest, and regards you with a large and liquid eye, the question of where you want to be and what you want to do has been answered"~*~

dcm
Sep. 24, 2003, 09:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by subk:
So why does everyone on this BB downplay the existence of this group so much?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe because not everyone who shows h/j has seen this. It is not as extensive as some people want others to believe.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by subk:
Lord Helpus the reason you don't understand why those people were clapping for horrid rounds in the Novice eventing division is because you missed the big picture. When you dare to expose your children to the possibility of failure you find a willingness to recognize even the smallest of successes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you missed the point, too. Failure comes in many measures. How can you think these kids at this show did not have a possibility of failure?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pinkhorse:
We'd be happy to show you how the hunter world can coexist with the values of the eventer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*barf* Maybe this type of attitude that the values of one discipline is superior to another is what brings out the defensiveness. Once again, the question begs: Why do eventers always think they can improve the h/j scene? Why do they care?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
You know what hunter riders DO have? Class. The class to not go into the territory of another discipline and post such CR*P as the above statement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely agree with this statement. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
Seems like the event people who have come over to this board have lost that sense of FUN and enjoyment. They seem to think that if it isn't grueling, it isn't being done right.

But "right" by whose standards? Each person gets to determine their own level of involvement and dedication. Least ways, thats the way it worked last time I noticed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif


**I can't believe this thread is actually still alive, and I posted to it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif **

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

Et Tu
Sep. 25, 2003, 05:36 AM
Wow! Go me...getting here a little late on this one. Anyway..just some general comments I suppose. Mary's said that our sport dosn't teacing riding and horsemanship. There are just as many kids running around not learning a darn thing in every discipline. That's not the style of riding causing that, it's the parents/trainer. I am a born and raised Hunter/Jumper. My parents weren't really involved but my mom was known to hold my horse while I walked a course etc. I paid my way with braiding. Now my kids are required to know how to braid in order to pay someone to do it for them. Redundent...kinda I suppose...but I can make an exception for a kid that trailers in and is a little slow so doesn't want to be up half the night, or someone who's going to meet us half way through the day due to school etc. But darnit those kids will know how to braid. Schooling your own pony. I understand kids wanting to take that next step and not having the means. So they buy something old or something with some issues...almost always people opt for issues. They end up with something mentally unsound (but not dangerous) and the trainer steps in and does their job. There's trully no harm in that. On the level that you saw, I suspect these munchkins were riding around on schoolies that because they are schoolies know the best way to get their goat. So the trainer gets on and does what trainers do and the schoolies no better than to mess around. What's the harm in that? These kids are 8 for stinking sake. They are going to pay their dues soon enough. Safe sound healthy experiences to learn on are the best thing right now. It's not about winning because you know what..there's only 1 first place...and 6 places in all and if there are 20 kids in that class and all of them have "perfect schooled (beaten around) ponies" as Mary put it, then 14 are STILL walking away ribbon free...if it was all about winning, wouldn't they all be run like leadline classes with 100 blue ribbons and lolly pops?? I am frustrated at the number of accusations that our sport doesn't teach horsemanship. That's a very lofty accusation as in my opinion, thats what it's all about. It doesn't matter if you ride a sliding stop, canter tempis, jump 5', gallop cross country...it's all about the horses. It is the trainers job to teach horsemanship 100% and it's the parents job to let them teach it. So if you want to find faults in something...look to those trainers that aren't teaching it and look to those parents who aren't letting it be taught, but don't look to the discipline, because there is nothing in that says eventers must groom their own horses, but hunters can hire people because they're lazy.

The one and onle Purple Princes....

Check out my BB...we're always looking for more Buddies!
horsefeathers.proboards2.com

Parade
Sep. 25, 2003, 07:04 AM
I don't know why I am doing this. Maybe I am a glutton for Punishment. But I want to tell a very recent story.

Some people on here have replied to posts I have about my horse out there. About trying to get her in shape to do some Hunter shows and things of that nature. This is part of that story.

I Love Cross Country, I love Dressage, and I love Jumping in any form. I gravitate to eventing. It is what I started when I was a wee girl and it is what I have always done. I will admit to a dislike of Hunters. Why? Because I saw alot of horses come through our eventing barn to be retrained, I saw alot of problem horses. Mine included. I bought my horse knowing some of her history, knowing that I would have a long road to make anything useful out of her. She had alot of issues, where they came from, I don't know. But she had a personality to die for so I snatched her up. She can't do CC, it scares me for her, the downhill part I don't think she could handle.
So I was going to be keeping her on the flat.

I changed barns recently, because I wanted better care for my horse. The new barn has a Hunter trainer. I remember the first time we talked, this is how the conversation went - "You ride hunters don't you?"
"Yes, I do"
"Um, I wont beat around the bush, I don't like them"
Know what? She just smiled and we talked about something else.

A few days later, my friend who moved her horse with me decided she was going to take lessons from the trainer. I thought it would be good for her, she needs someone who can help her improve her riding.

The next conversation with the Hunter trainer goes something like this -
"I want to get your friend riding well, maybe talk her into entering some local shows" - trainer.
"You know, you have a long way to go if you think you can turn me into a hunter" - me
Again she smiles. We talk on other subjects.

I decide it is time for a new saddle. I want to do more jumping and my A/P saddle is hindering me. The trainer and I go to Atlanta to look for a saddle. I will admit to grilling her the whole ride about hunters. She answered every question I had, never once getting an attitude or snarky. I asked, she answered.

Because she let me get to know HER and what SHE was about, and the fact that she answered MY questions in a well thought out and pleasant way, I decided I would take some lessons with her.

I will tell you she worked my rear off that first lesson. I was shocked and impressed. I felt better about my horse.

This was only 2 months ago. She helped me pick out a stud for my mare, and in the spring we will be breeding her. But I had an idea, since we HAVE to get her in shape anyway, why not work on her and put her in some local Hunter shows. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif DID I SAY THAT?
Well, yes, I did. My horse loves to work, she loves jumping, she needs to get in shape. She was bred to be a hunter, she has been a hunter, and darn it, I have to admit she will stay a hunter!

I gave my trainer a chance, a chance to make me see that the stereotypes were NOT the norm. That there is just as much skill and talent in Hunters as in any other discipline. She did it.

We were joking the other day with one of her young students. She said something about soon all her students stuff will have to match, and I told her, good luck with that, my horse will stay in Hunter green thank you. Then we started joking about Eventing and Hunters, Her remark was Hunters are prettier, Mine back was Eventers are in better shape. One of the mom's was looking at us, not sure what to make of it, we were laughing and joking about it, making fun of the stereotypes in BOTH our given disciplines. Then I looked at the mother and explained to her, I am an eventer and when I came to the barn I told the trainer she had a long way to go to turn ME into a hunter, then out of the blue, no one expected it the words - She has done a damn good job of it too.

The point of this stupid story.

There is ALOT of misconceptions about hunters out there, and when someone asks a question - wether nicely put or not, when the replies come out nasty and insulting then the person you are trying to correct WILL tune you out. The old saying you catch more flies with Honey holds true.
I will say, if I had come to this board to find out what hunters were about, and read this thread, I think I would never have given it a chance. Because as much as I like coming here the SAME people who are upset about generalization in hunters are making the exact same ones about eventers, AND are being extremely insulting about it.
It is people on BOTH sides of the fence who make me sick when they can't have a discussion without insulting the others point of view.

There are good and bad in everything, so we all must learn to live with it.

I don't know if anyone will get anything out of this, but I had to tell my story, and since it is recent it fits this topic. I gave hunters a chance because I found someone who would answer my questions WITHOUT making me feel stupid or ignorant and would EXPLAIN why it is what it is.

DMK
Sep. 25, 2003, 07:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
Your new business cards are in the mail.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, then. I have business cards... That makes it official. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Madison
Sep. 25, 2003, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Parade:
There is ALOT of misconceptions about hunters out there, and when someone asks a question - wether nicely put or not, when the replies come out nasty and insulting then the person you are trying to correct WILL tune you out. The old saying you catch more flies with Honey holds true. I will say, if I had come to this board to find out what hunters were about, and read this thread, I think I would never have given it a chance. Because as much as I like coming here the SAME people who are upset about generalization in hunters are making the exact same ones about eventers, AND are being extremely insulting about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Parade, I disagree somewhat with your characterization of the discussion -- Not to say that it hasn't gotten out of hand (it has) but IMO when people ask what appears to be a genuine question, or ask nicely, they get genuine information - I've seen those threads. The initial question here was phrased in such a way that people honestly couldn't tell that it wasn't a troll, and the answers reflected that (see, e.g. DMK's apple analogy). Every time the dicussion ventured toward answering an actual question (which were at times raised and answered), someone would divert it again by throwing fuel on the fire.

If a hunter rider went to the eventing forum with the approach Mary initially took, I'd say the hunter rider would deserve less-than-serious treatment of their question as well (see, e.g. LordHelpus' tongue-in-cheek post about a novice level event several pages ago). You reap what you sow.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

Rosie
Sep. 25, 2003, 07:49 AM
Well, I'm a frequent lurker and infrequent poster - but I have to say that I agree with those who question why people from other disciplines come over to the hunter/ jumper forum and post inflamatory "statements posed as questions" and then wonder what all the fuss is about.

Mary's initail post was typed out with her nose so far up in the air I'm surprised she could see the keyboard!

Her poor attempt to hide her clear sense of superiority is akin to those who start a sentence with "I'm not sexist BUT...." or," I'm not racist, BUT..." and then go on to prove that as a matter of fact that is exactly what they are.

I don't look at other disciplines - eventing, dressage, saddle seat, western pleasure, etc - as better or worse than hunter jumper. Just different. There are good riders, trainers, judges and competitions in them all. As well as bad.

A sincere question is good. Maybe we will all learn something of value.

A declaration of disdain poorly disguised as a question - yep, you'd be right to "zip up your flame suit".

Parade
Sep. 25, 2003, 08:05 AM
I think I must be either getting very thick skinned or I just don't worry about other people getting nasty. I have found, that when people are being mean and nasty the best way to burst their bubble is to be sickeningly sweet. *LOL* BUT that is just me. I have gone through to much in my life to let other people's issues get the better of me. So I tend to smile, thank them for their opinion and leave.

Personally, for me, I am a horrible typer and I think sometimes what I type comes out in a tone I was not intending. I honestly don't know what tone the origonal post of this thread was meant to come out in. So I will go back to my hole and hope for the best. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

dcm
Sep. 25, 2003, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Parade:
So I will go back to my hole and hope for the best. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, no, no! We like it when people come to the dark side! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

foursocks
Sep. 25, 2003, 08:44 AM
You know, I try not to rubberneck, but you know, sometimes you just can't help yerself...

When I was a kid and didn't know any better, I used to really get down on Western riding. I showed my greenie at some 4H shows, and ended up going to the state competition, and until then I hadn't been much exposed to anything outside of H/J and Dressage, but I was very judgmental of the other disciplines. I got to the showgrounds the night before, and my friend Jennie and I ended up schooling my horse James around that night in a little ring next to the bigger one where the Western riders were warming up for the classes that night. Wow, was that like clash of cultures- here I was on my 16.3 hand TB, doing some collected work and lots of bending and serpentines, nice slow canter and a bit of neck-stretching hand galloping and there they were, doing that very slow trot thing with the horse's nose nearly touching the ground. I had the little jumping CC saddle, a big dee bit and hunter bridle, James had on his front boots and some bells (he over-reached a lot), they had on the full glory of conchos and big bits, long flowing manes and long flowing chaps....Jennie and I were absolutely flabbergasted, and proceeded to giggle insanely at what we considered weirdo. Then I noticed that the other riders were looking at us like we were the weird ones! So it occured to me that one's viewpoint is sort of linked to one's context. Big thing for a 13-year-old! I thought Western riding was ugly and worthless, and Saddleseat ten times worse- but after my big realization, I had to admit that I didn't know what went into making a winning western or saddleseat horse any more than those kids knew just how hard I had worked to make my 4 year old not act insane and look hunter-pretty and effortless.

Bad riding is bad riding, and bad teaching is the same, but until you've ridden a mile in someone else's boots, try not to tar everyone with the same brush. People are really different- I can't believe I have to even point this out- so why would anyone expect that each person's approach to riding and horses is going to be the same?

And, to descend to a previous eventing poster's level who complained about how many hunters came through an event barn needing to be retrained- well, I'm currently riding two different former eventers who came from different places who have sore mouths from being over-bitted, will jump anything but only at a scared, frenzied run, and who think transitions mean gallop to halt. Am I walking around saying -gee, all eventers must be terrible riders and abuse their horses...? Nope. But I'd sure like to get my hands on the ones who turned these guys into freaks! Generalizing about a sport which is participated in by so many different people and horses is silly. And if I could figure this out at 13, then I'm sure it will be a simple thing for everyone else who likes to condemn this or that discipline out of hand to sit down and think about making that same discovery.

Madison
Sep. 25, 2003, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sproutsie:
You know, I try not to rubberneck, but you know, sometimes you just can't help yerself...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL sproutsie!!! good post!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

Janet
Sep. 25, 2003, 08:52 AM
To emphasize what sproutsie said (good post, btw), judging ANY discipline by the faults of the horses that did NOT make it in that discipline give very little insight into what is involved with sucess in that discipline.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

pwynnnorman
Sep. 25, 2003, 09:06 AM
I know I shouldn't, but I just have to log in here:

"...no matter how expensive the horse is, you HAVE TO BE ABLE TO RIDE!!!"

That depends on how you define the word "ride."

I always like to bring up the story of the 12-year-old rider who won the $25,000 hunter challenge (or something of that ilk) against the biggest of BN pros. I'm not saying she wasn't a GOOD rider, but she "couldn't" have been a GREAT rider, not yet.

Did ALL the pros have a bad day that day? No. It's the same thing with when someone flies down to FL over the weekend and takes home the championship. YOu can defend the sport all you like, but I'm afraid you'll not change my mind that these days, one heck of a lot of what you see IS the horse, not the rider.

You CAN program a pony--it's understandable that you may not think you can if you've not been around programmed ponies (and other mechanical mounts), but they are indeed out there and NO, those kids are NOT riding them in the least (except to steer).

Am I saying that no hunter pony riders know how to ride. Heck no. But SOME major winners most definitely do NOT--and if it happens in ponies, it must also happen in horses.

And hence the need to reconsider how one defines the word "ride" (in hunters, not jumpers).

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com

Lori
Sep. 25, 2003, 09:59 AM
My pony was an "auto-pilot" show ring pony (retired for 5 years now). Just steer. Yes, they are out there. If the kid could stay on, he would make them look good. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Lori

I love my fat pony!

DMK
Sep. 25, 2003, 10:16 AM
Pwynn, all any rider needed to be was BETTER than all the other riders for about 2 minutes, so no, unlike an entire career record, I don't think 2 minutes is the "complete" definition of ANY rider, 12 years old or otherwise.

Also, I have seen more than a few jumper riders who have achieved incredible success - with one horse - only to not ever rise to those ranks again. Some would argue that the horse was better than they were.

So if you want to talk about riding, I guess we better clarify if we are talking one ride, one horse or maybe a whole career.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Ketch
Sep. 25, 2003, 10:33 AM
Let me just ask a question here. Are you guys saying that on those autopilot poinies you don't even have to SEE a distance? Because I heartily disagree with that. My large pony was as push-button as they come, some would say one of the fanciest in the country at the time. He was very easy, yes, but if I didn't see a distance I still lost. Are there actually poines out there that see distances??? I think not.

[This message was edited by Betty Ford on Sep. 25, 2003 at 02:37 PM.]

wanderlust
Sep. 25, 2003, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Betty Ford:
He was very easy, yes, bt if I didn't see a distance I still lost. Are there actually poines out there that see distances??? I think not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm... you think horses are incapable of finding their way to the base without the rider's assistance? For real? In my experience, 9 times out of 10 if a horse is left alone to get the distance (which means NO fiddling from the rider), they will get there.

I have a good friend who wins pretty regularly at the big A's(used to be AO's, now AA's as her horse has aged), and she freely admits that she can't see a distance to save her life. She sets up the line, her horse takes care of the distance.

budman
Sep. 25, 2003, 11:46 AM
OMGiH, having read this whole thread, I can't believe I'm jumping in, but..
I used to groom several top class small ponies. And after I presented the magnificently turned out little push button creatures to their riders, I would smoke half a pack of cigarettes in anxiety while watching them jump two rounds, muttering under my breath that "a blind mokey could win on that pony" and "if he could read the course I'd tie his reins to the pommel and he'd win."

Well, sometimes they won and sometimes they didn't, because those kids RODE to the best of their ability, often making mistakes. Guess what, they got better every week, and after a while you might watch and think the kid was just sitting there on a push button pony who did everything for them, but I had seen the whole growth process and knew better. Sure, those ponies helped out a lot, but they didn't do it all.

Personally, I never rode a made or pushbutton horse or pony until college. I trained three ponies myself, and got tremendous satisfaction from it. I think I gained a great deal more from my relationships with them than many little girls I groomed for ever will. HOWEVER, I also realize that I never fulfilled my potential as a rider, and my ponies never reached their full potential, because I lacked professional help. I never got a confidence building ride on a schoolmaster, and my ponies never got confidence building rides from someone who really knew what they were doing.

I had the privilege of seeing exactly how talented one of those ponies was after I sold him. He would never have reached that level at my house. The point is there is room for all kinds in the horse world. It seems that unlike some of you I have seen both sides of many fences, including the western, h/j, pony club, do-it-yourself and get-a-pro fences.

Peek over some fences with an open mind. The grass might not look greener, but I promise you it's grass. We're all horse people, and a lot more similar than you think. I know I could go to an event tomorrow and find someone who fits the worst h/j stereotype, and vice versa.

Ash
Sep. 25, 2003, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have a good friend who wins pretty regularly at the big A's(used to be AO's, now AA's as her horse has aged), and she freely admits that she can't see a distance to save her life. She sets up the line, her horse takes care of the distance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well she must have some sort of idea where she is or how else would she know when to bend over? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I have to admit that the hardest horse I ever rode was one where I had to DO NOTHING. If I left her alone, 99% of the time it was perfect. If I moved one inch in the saddle she would speed up and get hot. If I touched her mouth she would get inverted and quick. I won tons in the A/O hunters on this horse, but was she easy? No way! Sometimes the no ride is the hardest of all!

******************************
Momma Mia, here I go again....

BenRidin
Sep. 25, 2003, 12:18 PM
I agree with Ash, it is really hard to trust that you will get there. If I try to let my horses go to the jump without any direction some of them would run out and some would chip in.. it just depends on te horse but I think that any horse can miss a distance even if it is one of those push-button super ponies. My friend had one once and she would still drop him and miss occasionally.

~BenRidin

Ketch
Sep. 25, 2003, 12:20 PM
Well, I still say there is no horse who actually FINDS the distances (not too deep, not too long) every time for you. Yes, there are horses (I own one!) who will help you out and get you over the fence and find a decent place to do it from, but I have never seen one, say, pick a long distance coming out of the turn and gallop down to it on an outside course. Methinks that takes some serious riding. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Lord Helpus
Sep. 25, 2003, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Master Tally:
I have a good friend who wins pretty regularly at the big A's(used to be AO's, now AA's as her horse has aged), and she freely admits that she can't see a distance to save her life. She sets up the line, her horse takes care of the distance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK. She claims to not be able to see a distance. Either do eventers -- they just keep coming forward to the jump. Their horses are trained to jump with this kind of ride. (OH NO! Their horses ae TRAINED to find the jump withut the rider telling them when to take off???? No. Can't be. That means that they are not RIDING!

Just as your friend is not riding --- you say "she just sets up the line". Oh, OK. So she understands pace, and balance and straightness and rhythm, and using the corners and flying lead changes and bending, and impulsion, and can get all of these out of her horse as they aproach the jump.

So she STILL cannot be a good rider if she cannot find distances? Is that what you mean? I am confused. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When life gives you crap, make crapenade.

Midge
Sep. 25, 2003, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:I always like to bring up the story of the 12-year-old rider who won the $25,000 hunter challenge (or something of that ilk) against the biggest of BN pros. I'm not saying she wasn't a GOOD rider, but she "couldn't" have been a GREAT rider, not yet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume you are talking about the year Cody Baird won on Most Wanted. Are you sure she was 12???
Do you understand the specs of the class? Only the Champion and reserve of the rated divisions are eligible to compete in the class. By it's very definition, there are only a couple horses ridden by pros with anything approaching the life experience of Most Wanted. The others are first and second year horses whose eyes literally bug out of their heads walking into the International arena under the lights.
Junior and amateur horses are chosen for their very inflappability. Horse shown by the pros are being shown by the pros because they are not yet a junior's ride.

There are 'made' horses in every discipline. I just about L'dOL when I braided at the dressage show in Pinehurst. As the ammy walked to the ring on her well trained horse, the barn manager said, 'Thank God he knows the movements because she sure doesn't.'

Midge
Sep. 25, 2003, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
So she STILL cannot be a good rider if she cannot find distances? Is that what you mean? I am confused. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, Pam! I tell people I can find the jumps, I just can't ride. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ketch
Sep. 25, 2003, 02:08 PM
FWIW, Cody Baird can ride the pants off 99% of the horse show world, and could even a few years ago. JMHO, of course. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

pinkhorse
Sep. 25, 2003, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Betty Ford:
Well, I still say there is no horse who actually FINDS the distances (not too deep, not too long) every time for you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I beg to differ - but you probably won't see them at shows. They have far more important jobs to do! They're school horses!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif There used to be a horse at Stoneleigh Burnham named Possum - you'ld watch him taking someone around and say, "Oh, look - Possum's doing the geometry!" (It's probably not geometry but...) You could just see the wheels spinning as he'd turn to a jump - the tape measure shot out, he'd do some quick calculations and change his stride as needed. He was amazing!

Of course send a bicycle his way down the road and he'd be on the other side of the county (he once had a run in with a bicycle).

***
check out www.biscuithillfarm.com (http://www.biscuithillfarm.com)

Janet
Sep. 25, 2003, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> She claims to not be able to see a distance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I used to claim that I "couldn't see a distance". My instructor at the time said: "Sure you can. When the distance is wrong you start to go into fetal position (knees and heels up, back rounding) 3 strides out. When the distance is right, you keep you heels down and your head up. You just don't KNOW that you see the distance."

Of course "seeing" it, and "doing something about it" are two quite different things.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

wanderlust
Sep. 25, 2003, 02:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
Just as your friend is not riding --- you say "she just sets up the line". Oh, OK. So she understands pace, and balance and straightness and rhythm, and using the corners and flying lead changes and bending, and impulsion, and can get all of these out of her horse as they aproach the jump.

So she STILL cannot be a good rider if she cannot find distances? Is that what you mean? I am confused. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I did not mean that at all. I was simply contradicting Betty Ford's assertion that a pony can't find a distance to the base on his own, without being placed at that specific takeoff point by the rider. My friend is a great example that they can. Heck, so am I. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

porklet
Sep. 25, 2003, 10:22 PM
Donning flame suit (and as someone who has decided to leave the H/J dark side so is probably biased), when Hunters become an Olympic discipline, and Hunter shows become International, rather than just in the the Americas, and someone proves that it is better for a horse to go long and low, daisy cutting, than be classicially trained in dressage, that's the time Eventers have the right to stop trashing Hunters. Until then, I can't imagine why Hunter riders (Lord Helpus!) could possibly even imagine they measure up to Eventers......other than on their superior tolerance of boredom every weekend.

I agree that for kids or starting out adults Hunters may be a great intro - with the right trainer, horse and barn. But the way it has now gotten so out of hand is just plain ridiculous. Read the posts on Toy Story for an example. Anyone who really thinks seriously about riding rather than money or ribbons has to move on.

Slinking off - but we do have the right of free speech still, correct ;-)

porklet
Sep. 25, 2003, 10:47 PM
Actually thinking about (now I had time to vent)a couple of years of Hunter training does have lot to recommend it for Eventing - learning to stay on, learning to count strides etc. But what I was trying to say is that in its current form, Hunters isn't really about learning to ride at an advanced level.

Rosie
Sep. 26, 2003, 06:16 AM
porklet,

After that display of ignorance I can see why you would slink off.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

foursocks
Sep. 26, 2003, 06:25 AM
Oh, porklet- silly porklet- you must be trying to start another fight....well, we could oblige (I can hear the knives being sharpened as I type), but where would that get us? Another 7 pages of carwreck to stare at....I'll watch, but I am *not* going to start trashing eventers....(repeat seven times to self).... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Magnolia
Sep. 26, 2003, 06:35 AM
Wow, this is STILL going on?

Lets solve this once and for all. Everyone go hop on an "easy hunter". Jump a hunter course. Find 8 perfect spots. Get your changes and the numbers in the lines. Repeat 2 more times.

Report back.

How many felt the urge to take back to a non-existent distance and chipped that long run to an oxer? Forgot to steady in the line that measured a titch short and move up in the long line and missed the out jump? Got the lead change too late? Did your horse jump in perfect form or did he hang a leg or jump flat? Did you trip in a corner and trot a step?

Made any of these mistakes? In good competition, you'd be out of the ribbons. Hunter jumpers are about details. Getting details right on a 1200 lb. animal isn't easy.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:03 AM
I swore I would stay out of this thread, but...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:

OK. She claims to not be able to see a distance. Either do eventers -- they just keep coming forward to the jump. Their horses are trained to jump with this kind of ride. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm.... WHAT??? Good God, that is an awfully broad generalization!

I have been training with eventing instructors (as well as occasional hunter/jumper instructors) my whole life, and never, ever, have I had an instructor who didn't encourage me to "see" and ride to a spot.

Now, if you DON'T see a spot, I've always been told to just keep riding forward to the jump, and it will work out. But I've never been told to do that in lieu of actually TRYING to find a spot.

FWIW, I did a Denny Emerson clinic in July, and he hopped on a horse in my group and popped it over a few fences. Without fail, he was able to accurately count down to his distance from 5-8 strides away.

wanderlust
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:05 AM
Oh porklet, lower-level eventing riders are no closer to the olympics than hunter riders are. Top level hunter riders typically also ride jumpers, which IS an olympic discipline, so there goes your argument. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Now slink back away to where you came from.

RugBug
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:34 AM
That's even assuming that Olympic level eventing is even top quality. From what I've heard and read, Olympic level eventing is not top quality because smaller countries who don't have a history in eventing would be in some serious danger.

Sounds like bitter rantings to me....

Midge
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by porklet:
Donning flame suit (and as someone who has decided to leave the H/J dark side so is probably biased), when Hunters become an Olympic discipline,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, like Ping Pong and Weightlifting. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

deltawave
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:54 AM
Not going to take part in the argument except to pose a question, which I sincerely hope will be taken in its original intention, as something I often wonder about:

Would you all (meaning hunter people in general) compare your sport--inasmuch as comparisons are valid--more to dressage than eventing? I've often thought that the precision, form, and style that is sought in hunters correlates far more closely with "straight" dressage than with eventing in general, which although it shares the ACT of jumping with h/j is (to my mind) not the same sort of thing at all. Just wondering what you all think.

DISCLAIMER: I think all horse sports are great. I event now, used to do H/J, never found hunters the LEAST bit easy. Didn't suit me, but I'm willing to admit I sucked at it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Am very much resistant to stereotypes of any sort and think any equine athletic endeavor is bloody hard work! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I can understand why people find different disciplines appealing, but don't see how that means somebody else's discipline is BAD. There are crappy trainers, riders, and rules in ALL disciplines, I daresay.

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

dcm
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:

Umm.... WHAT??? Good God, that is an awfully broad generalization!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Applies both ways. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

Catmansmom
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:22 AM
Just adding my 2 cents to this very interesting and lively post.

When I am curious about a situation in training (or anything for that matter) I ask why. My point more specifically--is that Mary in Area 1 could have approached the trainers or the parents of the kids showing(after they were done with there rounds of course)and asked-in a diplomatic way--what they were trying to acomplish that day and about "the purpose" of a schooling hunter/jumper show.

I grew up doing hunter jumpers and I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly in that sport. I have also ridden at an event barn and helped with horse trials and events, in addition to seeing Rolex several times, and I have also seen, the good, the bad, and the ugly in that discipline as well. If I have a question about something that goes on at an event, I'll ask one of my eventing friends right then an there--because they are privy to the context and the situation at hand. I think what makes it so hard for us H/J people to respond to Mary in Area 1's question is that none of us saw the show she was at. However, I agree a generalized opinion of any discipline should not be made on one bad experience. THere are several books out there on huntersand jumpers--think, George Morris--and one can go to several different types of H/J shows to round out your education. Also since no matter what discipline you ride in, for example, me--a hunter/jumper--one tends to think that its the best discipline http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think that this has been a good example of how passionate the people are on this board are about their sport and their riding http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OK, I'll stop rambling--forgive me, I work nights and I'm still asleep.

Just two key words--Education and Diplomacy.

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:

Exactly!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Applies both ways. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it does. Which is why, after the same point had been made in regard to generalizing about h/j riders umpteen times in this thread, I'm rather disappointed to see that the same courtesy wasn't extended to eventers.

BB
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I can't imagine why Hunter riders (Lord Helpus!) could possibly even imagine they measure up to Eventers......other than on their superior tolerance of boredom every weekend.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm appalled by this comment as well as others made on this thread. Why can't we all respect eachother's choices as to which discipline we've selected? We all have our reasons for selecting our chosen discipline.

I love hunters because it challenges me. Finding eight perfect distances doesn't come easy. For this reason, I've never tried eventing. And it's not because I think eventers aren't amazing riders-- it's just not my bag. To each his own.

That being said, I would NEVER go to an eventing forum and bash the sport. I respect and admire anyone who has the brass ones to go out there and do it. Not to mention, I respect people who love and admire horses and riding as I do.

Let's stop bashing and respect eachother http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Midge
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:44 AM
deltawave, it's sort of hard to compare. The best hunters are very well broke on the flat. It's how we get to long and low, yet stay connected. We just don't demonstrate how we got there, in classes at horse shows.

Remember in math class <shudder> for a story problem, the last line was always, 'Show your work.' Eventers show their work. Hunters show the result.

Midge
Sep. 26, 2003, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Of course it does. Which is why, after the same point had been made in regard to generalizing about h/j riders umpteen times in this thread, I'm rather disappointed to see that the same courtesy wasn't extended to eventers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin, I am struggling with something here. It has never occurred to me to go to the eventing board and post things like, 'Why would you ever do a sport where horses dying on course is a concern?' 'Why would you do a sport where you can fall off and still win?' And after watching at Pinehurst a couple weeks ago, 'Why are you so adamantly against the crest release and counting strides when some of your horses so obviously needed and desperately wished you had these skills?'

I don't do it because just about every horse person I know in every discipline has the important things in common. We love our horses. We love our sport. We love competing. The best moments are not in the show ring. The best moments occur when our individual horses do 'that cute thing'. We are all filled with hope when a new horse comes to the barn. We are all filled with sorrow (or occasionally, 'Good Riddance!' http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) when one goes on to a new home. We have all been angry, hurt and frustrated by our horse's inabilities and awed, humbled and blessed by their abilities.

It's what bonds us together as horse people. I watched dressage tests for the Pam Ams this morning and saw one rider miss a lead change. Oh, how my heart went out to him! I bet he hates that elesive Lead Change Fairy just as much as I do!

Almost every rider in every discipline is trying to forge a bond that makes the sum greater than the parts, whether one is a backyard eventer, a DQ, a hunter princess or a cowgirl on a peanut roller. We all pick up the reins with hope and expectation, no matter how crappy or disappointed we were with our last experience in the tack.

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 10:24 AM
Midge, I think deltawave (who I'm sure will correct me if I am wrong http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) was comparing hunters and dressage with regard to the "pursuit of perfection" aspect. I've always thought there was a similarity as well... the dressage riders are in pursuit of that elusive 10, and the hunter riders are in pursuit of that elusive perfect trip. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW, am in total agreement with BB in regard to bashing. It bothers me just as much to see eventers bash hunters as it does to see hunters bash eventers.

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 10:30 AM
Oops, just saw your next post, and I am in complete agreement. Frankly, I hate to see any sport denigrated... even the funky ribbon-twirly stuff in rhythmic gymnastics, or synchronized swimming, or ping pong. I don't necessarily understand them (or understand why anybody finds that a fun activity! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) but, hell, if they enjoy it and work hard at it, more power to them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I certainly understand why the hunter riders were upset by the original post. My only point was that, as dcm said, it goes both ways. Just because one eventer showed a lack of tact and made some gross generalizations doesn't mean it's okay for hunter riders to turn around and do the same thing in "defense" of their sport.

Sleepy
Sep. 26, 2003, 10:31 AM
Very well put, Midge. It would never occur to us to go to the eventing board to ask those questions. But hunters are apparently fair game for any dressager or eventer to bash at will. I personally don't understand it.

''Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.''
- Pablo Picasso

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 10:40 AM
And there we go with the generalizations again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif "Fair game for ANY dressager or eventer to bash at will"??? Come on!

If you don't want Mary in Area I to judge all h/j riders by the behavior of a handful of pony kids she saw at one show, DON'T judge all eventers by the behavior of Mary in Area I.

Madison
Sep. 26, 2003, 10:56 AM
Erin's comment just made me wonder, is anyone aware of any examples of a question like Mary's initial one actually being posted in the dressage or eventing forums??

I know I've seen it happen a number of times where people come to the h/j forum and stir this up, but I really don't read the Dressage or Eventing forums, so I have no idea if someone has posted a similar "fishing" question there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

dogchushu
Sep. 26, 2003, 11:08 AM
Erin,

If it were just Mary in Area 1, I don't think this thread would have gone to 8 pages. It's just that Mary happens to be an eventer, and I think a lot of people are sick and tired of hearing more hunter bashing (at least I am).

Certainly, there are many, many eventers on this board who don't bash hunter riders. And even some who stick up for us!

However, there are threads like this and the one where an eventer went to judge a hunter show that turn into a "what's wrong with hunters" discussion. Also, I frequently see statements on the eventer board to the effect of "we don't want that--it would make us like hunters" when people discuss proposed changes. And I'll never forget the day I read a moderator post "the more I see of hunters, the less I like it!"

No, it's not all or even a majority of eventers. It's not even just eventers. But it really gets downright depressing to go to a hunter/jumper board and see yet another discussion on how hunter riders can't ride.

Sometimes it just gets to be overwhelming! You start out trying to explain and answer questions, but eventually you get tired of always defending yourself. You just want to scream "make sure your own damn house is spotless before you go commenting on the mess in mine!"


"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

[This message was edited by dogchushu on Sep. 26, 2003 at 02:40 PM.]

Mary in Area 1
Sep. 26, 2003, 12:56 PM
I think what has upset me the most was that I DID get some polite, thorough answers to my question at the beginning of this thread. I then apologized for the hasty and definitely poorly worded original question (and it was a sincere question, however badly presented). This all transpired on PAGE 4 of this thread.

I have been severely trounced and bashed for 4 MORE PAGES, while I have not responded. At this point, I feel like making another generalization, such as:

Do H/J people not at least skim the posts to a thread before they shoot the original poster?Are H/J people way too defensive of their sport?
Are H/J people not willing to accept an apology?

Geez people, I said I was sorry, had learned my lesson, took my toys and went home.

By the way, I am a FORMER hunter, FORMER eventer and wife and mother to eventers and dressage riders. I happen to be a dressage rider at this time. Dressage training has made me a MUCH better jumper than all the previous hunter lessons I've had. I now understand much more about balance, suppleness and rhythm than I ever learned in years of hunter training.

ball park
Sep. 26, 2003, 01:05 PM
I made the following tongue in cheek comment on another thread about the great attitudes of eventers that I think applies here as well:

Little known fact - the most common injury for eventers is arm strain caused by excessively patting themselves on the back about what great people they are ( especially in comparison to those pursuing other equestrian disciplines).

lauriep
Sep. 26, 2003, 01:08 PM
The similarity between dressage and hunters is the ability to make the ride look "invisible" and "easy." A beautiful dressage ride makes it look as if the horse is doing everything totally naturally, willingly and happily. The same is true of a beautiful hunter round.

Do you think these horses come out of the womb being able to perform upper level dressage, or jump 8 jumps in perfect form, both over and between the jumps?

No, of course not. And that brings us to the final and most important similarity: they both take YEARS of intensive training by good riders. Then, and only then, do you get a "packer" who can apparently do the course on his own.

ANYONE who doesn't understand what it takes to develop a "made" horse, in ANY discipline, is doing the sport a real disservice.

Laurie

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
You just want to scream "make sure your own damn house is spotless before you go commenting on the mess in mine!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You couldn't be more right, dogchushu. And that's been exactly my point. Don't complain about one side generalizing when your side is doing it just as badly.

This is by far the most offensive thing I've read in a while:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I cannot imagine having to deal with the holier than thou attitude that eventers have. Too bad they do not have the riding skills to go along with it. Then, maybe they would not be so pitiable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I guess because it's posted on the h/j forum, and not over in eventerland, it's OK?

At least Mary in Area I admitted she phrased her initial post poorly and apologized.

dcm
Sep. 26, 2003, 01:19 PM
**sorry** this post was made much, much earlier and did not finish posting properly. Instead of trying to recreate what I wanted to say, I'll just delete it.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[This message was edited by dcm on Sep. 26, 2003 at 04:49 PM.]

RugBug
Sep. 26, 2003, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
You just want to scream "make sure your own damn house is spotless before you go commenting on the mess in mine!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You couldn't be more right, dogchushu. And that's been exactly my point. Don't complain about one side generalizing when your side is doing it just as badly.

This is by far the most offensive thing I've read in a while:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I cannot imagine having to deal with the holier than thou attitude that eventers have. Too bad they do not have the riding skills to go along with it. Then, maybe they would not be so pitiable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I guess because it's posted on the h/j forum, and not over in eventerland, it's OK?

At least Mary in Area I admitted she phrased her initial post poorly and apologized.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LH's post was a little harsh, okay a lot harsh...but to me it was like someone who's been beat up one to many times and decided to fight back. In that context it's still not nice, and still IMHO deserves an apology, but it wasn't unprovoked as your post makes it seem.

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 01:30 PM
I'm sorry if you all feel that your sport gets "bashed" on a regular basis, but I just don't think that excuses bashing other sports in return.

Do you want to be part of the problem, or part of the solution?

If you want other disciplines to treat your sport with respect, take the high road, and treat the other disciplines with the respect that YOU would want them to give yours.

dcm
Sep. 26, 2003, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
If you want other disciplines to treat your sport with respect, take the high road, and treat the other disciplines with the respect that YOU would want them to give yours.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words, turn the other cheek. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Sorry, can't do that as many times as folks come to the h/j board and start bashing. If they would do it just once, okay, but some continue on and on and on.

Mary has apologized and restated her questions and comments, so I for one am for ending this thread. It's the other hunter bashers who continue to come in and keep it going. The hunter riders have as much right to defend their sport as anyone else. The bashing back is a reaction from being bashed way too many times from invaders in their own back yard.

If Lord Helpus' post from page 3 had been posted on the eventer board, would they have turned the other cheek? I think not.

Sorry Erin. Maybe you need to close this thread to end it?

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

Lord Helpus
Sep. 26, 2003, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
I swore I would stay out of this thread, but...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:

OK. She claims to not be able to see a distance. Either do eventers -- they just keep coming forward to the jump. Their horses are trained to jump with this kind of ride. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm.... WHAT??? Good God, that is an awfully broad generalization! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think so, Erin. Below are comments made by eventers from just one thread of last year. Funny, but after reading these comments, I thought I was only paraphrasing them when I made that statement.

Posted by Serendipity:
Interesting...
this is not a secret in eventing...forward *is* our mantra.

Posted by Backstage Pass:
I, like Seredipidy, am an eventer who was never instructed to focus on spots or striding, the jump/line rode the way it rode...

Posted by xc girl:
One of my favorite quotes is one from Lucinda Green
"Don't stop kicking till your on the other side"
Keeps me thinking forward to a fence.

Posted by Heinz 57:
I always ride up and to the base, as it really gets my horses to use themselves and be aware of their feet and legs

Posted by EventerAJ:
Hmm, "forward to the base" well that's what I've been working on for the past year. It's been very hard to retrain my (and my horse's!) instincts (the "when in doubt, leave it out" kind ) Once you have the right canter, you just maintain it (haha, easier said than done!). From this balance, the horse can jump from ANY spot safely and comfortably. Sit up and wait (with leg on!) and the deep spot is there.

Posted by RRB:
EventerAJ, you sound like my trainer!
She's the master of saying things like, "all you have to do is use your leg to get him forward and your hands to get him up but make sure that you're not using too much hand or too much leg."


Why is it OK for eventers to say that they ride "forward to the base" but not for me to believe them when they say it? Or was this not a large enough sampling for me to have reason to think that this was the way eventers rode to the jump? Perhaps I should have taken Serendipity to task for making generalizations when she made her statement?

Please explain your problem with my statement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When life gives you crap, make crapenade.

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 02:03 PM
My problem is that you said: "She claims to not be able to see a distance. Either do eventers."

In other words, eventers are unable to see a distance.

That, to me, is an ENTIRELY different statement than saying eventers "ride forward to the base."

Heather
Sep. 26, 2003, 02:04 PM
OK, I'm going to sorta apologize here. Perhaps the better word would be clarify.

I never said, nor meant to imply that there aren't very good, even excellent, riders and trainers in hunterland. In fact, I've dabbled in the hunter thing myself this year a bit, and I can say, without question (a) riding like that is VERY hard, and (b) training those horses is definately an art. To be honest, I don't enjoy it, but I never meant to imply that I didn't think it was worthwhile. So, if anybody thought I was implying that all hunter riders can't ride, or that hunter people just suck, that's not all what I said, and I apologize if that's how it came across.

To each his own.

The main point of my first post, is that I do sort of get tired of the "tennsi raquet mentality"--my personal feeling is that it doesn't belong in horsesports. Period. And I'm not going to take back or apologize for anything I said in that regard. It's not OK with me for your horse to be equivalent to a tennis raquet or cello or other inanimate object purchased for your personal glory. If you don't think that way about your horse, then I got no problem with you, and we can all smile and be friends. If you do think that way about your horse, then it is your right to not give a damn what I think of you, but at least you know where I stand.

I will also admit to being a bit short tmepered this week, because i have a lame horse, who is not only not getting better, but is apparently actively attmepting to maim himself for life. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif So, I'm certain that contributed to my gut reaction earlier in this thread that turned me into "Cynical Girl"--the one that says, "Fun, fun, hmph, stupid kids should learn now this sport is about struggling and suffering ,and still soemtimes you get kicked in the teeth by it, you work, and work, and strugle, and you get lame horses, crap things, etc." I'm definately having a "Why do we do this again" week, having recieved a scary vet bill, and STILL have a lame horse.

However, none of that is the fault of any of the people on the board, and I'm sorry I let Cynical Girl out to wreak havoc. However, I do think that at some point, people should learn that life ain't all wine and roses and blue ribbons, and that the sooner that lesson is learned the less painful it is. JMHO

OK, I should probably stop there, but I can't quite. Because here's the thing. I mentioned earlier I've dabbled in the hunter thing this year, and that's because I've a horse I'm trying to sell that doesn't want to be an eventer, he wants to be a hunter. And to be frank, my expereince in that regard has been less than 100% positive. I've met some WONDEFUL people, and fantastic riders. I've also met people who literally could not post the trot, but they and their trainer told me they were actviely showing at 3'0 (this is a well started, but green, horse, suitable for a somehwat expereinced junior or AA, but not one that can't post the trot! Which we tell every person on the phone! And yet they come in droves anyway!). I've also had a couple of poeple try to either outright screw us, or think that because we're not in the hunter world we'd be so gullible and greatful for the attention we'd let their students ride and compete the horse on our dime. So that's put a bit of a sour taste in my mouth this week as well. Again, not anyone here's fault, so I apologize for taking it out on you.

I hope we can go forward from here.

Oh, and BTW, there have been instances of h/j folks coming over to eventers and sking why indeed would we want to compete in a sport that kills horses. But it hasn't happened for a long, long while.

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:

In other words, turn the other cheek. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So in your mind, two wrongs make a right? And every time one sport is insulted, the proper response is for the other side to hurl insults back?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If Lord Helpus' post from page 3 had been posted on the eventer board, would they have turned the other cheek? I think not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said I expected anyone to ignore the hunter bashing comments. I just said they shouldn't generalize, and shouldn't bash back.

AOHunter2002
Sep. 26, 2003, 02:09 PM
i just dont understand why people who dont really have a concept of the hunter world decide to put it down- i know NOTHING about eventing and dressage (except that it doesnt really interest me) so i wouldnt even THINK to say something negative about those disciplines.

I have been told many times that my horse is "so broke that you dont have to do anything" by spectators/barn mates who havent ruden him. I take it as a compliment because i know that if they think im not doing anything during my round...i have gotten closer to achieving my goal of perfecting my ride. I know that you have to ride my beastie, but it does get real old hearing such things.

Now if i didnt care about the possibility of my horse getting ruined (which i do...i dont let anyone but my trainer ride him really) i might say to some of the eventer riders who have such nice things to say about us "hunter princesses"...sure hop on...now you go do an A/O round that will be competetive enough to be in the top three http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif maybe some of these people would have more respect for the hunter discipline...and then again, maybe not.
Katie

~*~"When your horse greets you with a nicker, nuzzles your chest, and regards you with a large and liquid eye, the question of where you want to be and what you want to do has been answered"~*~

Heather
Sep. 26, 2003, 02:13 PM
One more thing, (because the above post just wasn't long enough, LOL).

I do think that it is human nature to frankly, and quizzicly go HUH? What the . . .?" When encoutnerting something extremely foreign. It's not the best part of human nature to be sure, but it is human nature. I saw a Paso Fino show on TV the other week, and as part of the show, they ride the horses up and down this little wooden ramp/bridge thingy, in order to listen to the rhytmic/musical quality of their gaits as they canasta across the wood with their feet.

I was totally mystified. Totally. I couldn't even envision how anyone even came up with this sport. I'm sure here, in the privacy of my house, I said some things aloud to myself about what I was seeing that had a Paso Fino person overhead them would have been offended. I didn't mean them offensively, I was just so mystified and startled that I was talking off the cuff.

I've frankly, had the same sort of mystified reaction to some of the things in the hunter world. And, I would think, that was the process behind Mary's question, she was genuinely startled and mystified by what she had seen-- the concept of showing that way was so foreign to her, that she was like, "What the &#%^$&# did I just see?" But since her reaction and question were so close to the event in question, perhaps the tact was somewhat lacking. (And mine as well). (DOn't mean to speak for you Mary, that was just my reaction).

So keep in mind too, that newcomers to your sport, especially from other disciplines, are often very startled by "how things work" it's very foreign to us, and as a result we can go into "HUH?" mode, which isn't always our most tactful.

Lord Helpus
Sep. 26, 2003, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by porklet:
I can't imagine why Hunter riders (Lord Helpus!) could possibly even imagine they measure up to Eventers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Porket, I cannot imagine it either! My 6 years of pony club, which included being on several winning C3 teams and riding as an individual B at the National Rally before I left Pony Club at age 16, because I preferred the show world, in no way prepared me to be the equal of you "eventers". I bow before your superiority. Thank you for coming over to the H/J board to point out the mediocrity and inferiority of hunter riders. And for singling me out in particular.

Your post has spurred me on to work even harder to measure up to your standards. What is your particular level of riding? I need to know so that I can know when I am as good a rider as you are and am your equal. My life will be fulfilled at that point.

You have truly made my day. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When life gives you crap, make crapenade.

FoolForLove1
Sep. 26, 2003, 02:47 PM
Ok, I am a longtime lurker and first time poster because I just felt I needed to get into this.

I am a Hunter/Jumper person so obviously my heart lies with the hunter people on this board and in this arguement.

It seems to me that the flaming of the hunters is be tolerated but everytime someone says something "unfriendly" about the eventers, everyone freaks out even more.

REMEMBER PEOPLE!! You are on the H/J boards!!!

I don't know tons about dressage and eventing... I dabbled in both when I was VERY young. (I am talking 11 years old.) I found that hunters were much more challenging.

Please try to understand that it works both ways. You may say that all hunter riders have to do is sit up and look pretty because the horses are so well schooled, but one could say that an eventer on a brave, honest, easy horse only has to kick and go. (They can forget about looking correct doing it, we can't.)

Quite frankly I think that a top level hunter rider would have a better chance making it successfully around an event course than an eventer would on a hunter course.

I DARE any of you eventers to go take an equitation clinc with George Morris. I think you would be in for one rude awakening.

So PLEASE Dear eventers. GO to an AAA rated hunter show and put yourself in a Junior or A/O Hunter Class. Let us know how it goes.

Often the trips in those classes are so beautiful they simply take your breath away. Where as you guys are often so scary that it takes our breath away.

dogchushu
Sep. 26, 2003, 03:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
You just want to scream "make sure your own damn house is spotless before you go commenting on the mess in mine!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You couldn't be more right, dogchushu. And that's been exactly my point. Don't complain about one side generalizing when your side is doing it just as badly.

This is by far the most offensive thing I've read in a while:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I cannot imagine having to deal with the holier than thou attitude that eventers have. Too bad they do not have the riding skills to go along with it. Then, maybe they would not be so pitiable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I guess because it's posted on the h/j forum, and not over in eventerland, it's OK?

At least Mary in Area I admitted she phrased her initial post poorly and apologized.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe I said it was okay to insult eventers on any board. If that's how my posts came across, then I'm sorry. I may have communicated poorly, but it wasn't intentional.

My point was (let's see if I can say it better this time around) that most of us can only defend ourselves for so long before you reach the breaking point and go on the offensive. Is it right? Probably not. But we're all human.

Maybe the quote you listed was the most offensive thing you've read in a while. I've seen others that have offended me more. We all react more strongly to the things that insult us.

In all honesty, I've seen many disparaging remarks about hunters on this board. It can get pretty hurtful at times.



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

swansong
Sep. 26, 2003, 04:09 PM
All of this bashing each others sport is absurd. You are comparing apples and oranges. I am a h/j rider and have been all my life. I have no interest in eventing. I think it takes a certain horse and a lot of guts to ride a cross country course. The dressage is just our basic flat work and the stadium jumping is a low level jumper class. I have competed against 3 Day Olympic riders when they crossed over into the hunter ring and they weren't even competitive. My point is that Eventers have no idea what it takes to ride a hunter course or even a big jumper course. On the other hand I wouldn't be able to participate in an event with any sucess. It is like comparing baseball to football. Why can't you just appreciate each othrs sport for what it is.

JustaLurker
Sep. 26, 2003, 04:23 PM
Ah, here's a silly suggestion. Perhaps what we need to do here is sign up for our primary Forum as we must do when joining AHSA / USAEq / USEF / whatever - as Dressage, Hunter/Jumper, Eventing, Hunting, Driving, Racing, Sport Horse Breeding. Everyone could post to Horse Care and Off Course. Then, if you wish to post to another Forum, you must "pay to play." Then we might stay at home and refrain from popping up on other Forums to bash and wax nasty.

This topic has moved from apparent discipline bashing to fairly vicious personal attacks. I know, I know, the solution is to stop reading the topic and perhaps I should. The tongue in cheek posts aren't understood as such and are being responded to in an insulting manner. It's a pity that it's getting a bit out of hand and nasty.

Cheers, Maggi

RugBug
Sep. 26, 2003, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swansong:
All of this bashing each others sport is absurd. You are comparing apples and oranges.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh, most of us know we are comparing apples and oranges. What gets old is being told over and over that apples are higher in nutritional value, tastier and much more fun to eat than oranges. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GotSpots
Sep. 26, 2003, 04:56 PM
I have a confession. I am an eventer. I hate scrubbing the white on my horse's socks and applying hoof oil, I never wear a hairnet, and I often belch in public. I am usually too stupid to know I am in over my head, and too dumbly brave and bull-headed to care as I careen down to enormous fences that my long-suffering and lovely horse routinely saves my arse over, while I cling perilously to the saddle, causing spectators to whisper hail marys and jump judges to radio ahead to have the EMTs prepared.

My dressage tests look like a barrel race without the extra equipment. My horse on good days flips his head and on bad days looks like he's an extra in a scene from Man From Snowy River. Judges thank me for not having run them over. Parents cover their children's ears to avoid the steady stream of ephithets leaking out between my gritted teeth.

Stadium is a jumble of poles. My horse flings himself wildly at distances, bucks in the corners, and eyes the crowd with wild eyes. If I get a lead change, it is blind good luck, coincidence of weight, balance, and, if I'm lucky, coordination of incompetence. If I see a distance, I run from it, or better, try to bash it with a stick.

But at the end of three days of mayhem, punctuated by my buddy's cooler full of drinks and caked on layers of dirt from sacking it out in my trailer for two nights, if I'm really lucky, I might get a 99 cent piece of ribbon. I'll grin just as hard as any up-down kid in Tailored Sportsmans and GPA on their pro-schooled auto-pony who is called in for a jog. And I'll be darned if I'd begrudge them a split-second of their enjoyment of their moment.

eqnjumperrider
Sep. 26, 2003, 05:02 PM
Ok, after having read all 9 pages of this post I want to respond.. I did hunters for a long time when I was younger, now I do Eq. and Jumpers. Frankly, to have a gorgeous hunter round against other gorgeous rounds takes a lot of skill. I would LOVE to see the eventers who are bashing hunters go around a lovely hunter/ eq /jumper course and do well at a AAA rated show. Second of all, I think that eventing is unfair to the horses and cruel ( look at pictures of the horses jumping off the huge banks, with no release and flipping over) . In my opinion many, but certainly not all eventers look like yahoos who have no finesse, and people that run around and not necessarily have all the skill to get around well. I was also wondering, why if eventers are such good riders then why at the upper levels, the stadium course is only around 4 feet, and if people will notice a fairly large amount of them can't get around. This goes to show that ya, anyone can run around a CC course like a yahoo, but can't get around a jumper course well. Lastly, I think that the horses are treated very inhumanley in eventing, and if you look at the "stats" are generally the horses that break down the fastest. So, pllllleaseee all you FABULOUS eventers, go out and do a perfect eq or hunter round, and then come back and talk.. Till then, shut up and you will be doing us all a favor. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[This message was edited by eqnjumperrider on Sep. 26, 2003 at 08:28 PM.]

Duffy
Sep. 26, 2003, 05:23 PM
Having been power-less at my home for 8 days, thanks for the reading! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"B***h in training"

dcm
Sep. 26, 2003, 05:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:

In other words, turn the other cheek. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So in your mind, two wrongs make a right? And every time one sport is insulted, the proper response is for the other side to hurl insults back?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin, no that is not what I meant. Here, let me quote my WHOLE paragraph:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:
In other words, turn the other cheek. Sorry, can't do that as many times as folks come to the h/j board and start bashing. If they would do it just once, okay, but some continue on and on and on.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not say bashing back was proper. A natural reaction to being slapped time and time again is to slap back. Simple human nature.

Peace, Erin. I believe we agree that neither discipline is superior to the other. But, I will still claim the right to defend the sport that my dtr and I love when people come to our sport's board and proceed to bash over and over again that which we love. I can't force people to respect hunters, but I will not sit meekly by and let people invade our territory and smack us around repeatedly.

What I really cannot understand is why is it almost always people who event who come to us and tell us how awful the h/j world is. That is like walking into one's home and telling them their decor is the most gawd-awful tasteless crap they've ever seen. (No, Heather, I was not comparing our horse to a decor and redecorating when we feel like something new.)

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 05:58 PM
Sorry DCM, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care how many times someone insults you... if your response is to insult them back, you're no better than they are. Like I said, you can either be part of the problem or part of the solution.

And please note that I agreed it's in poor taste to go on another discipline's forum and bash them. Still, it doesn't make it any more right to bash that discipline back. We're not in kindergarten here.

Dogchushu, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound as though I was directing that comment at you personally. I'm just bothered by the fact that some hunter defenders seem to think it's OK for folks on "their side" to display the EXACT same behavior that they're railing against.

And, just to clarify, I found porklet's comment just as offensive as Lord Helpus'. I have absolutely no respect for people who will broadly condemn the riding abilities of an entire discipline. It just makes you look uninformed, narrow-minded, and incapable of defending your own discipline with a reasoned argument.

And I'm not even going to touch eqnjumperrider's post. Did y'all notice that he/she posted the same thing over on the eventing board? Hmmm... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

dcm
Sep. 26, 2003, 06:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Sorry DCM, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care how many times someone insults you... if your response is to insult them back, you're no better than they are. Like I said, you can either be part of the problem or part of the solution.

And please note that I agreed it's in poor taste to go on another discipline's forum and bash them. Still, it doesn't make it any more right to bash that discipline back. We're not in kindergarten here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin, I have not insulted anyone on this thread (I might have to go back and double check my posts earlier....http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif). Plus, I said we agree that NO DISCIPLINE IS SUPERIOR. I only said that I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND THAT WHICH MY DTR AND I LOVE AND ENJOY. The only comments I have made about other disciplines is WHY IS IT ALWAYS THE EVENTERS WHO COME HERE TO BASH HUNTERS?

Erin, why do you always pick apart my posts on threads like these? Have I insulted you in a prior life? I used your quote earlier to make a point. You said exactly what hunter people have been trying to say about Mary's posts....well, but maybe not as direct as you. Quoting you was not directed at you nor was it meant in any insulting manner. I apologize if you took it that way. I have had nothing but the utmost respect for you, as you have one of the toughest jobs moderating this board.

PS - yup, saw that post. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 06:29 PM
I was using the generic "you", DCM. I did not mean to imply that you insulted anyone here. Amend my first paragraph to read: "I don't care how many times someone insults someone else... if that person's response is to insult them back, they're no better than the original insulting person." Or something similar that makes more sense. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I simply disagree with your statements. Nothing personal.

goobs
Sep. 26, 2003, 06:32 PM
eqnjumpinrider - the stadium is set for 4' (I think a few inches higher at a ****, not sure though) because the horses have run xc the day before. They can't possibly jump a GP jumper course the next day. Stadium (at the upper levels esp. - lower levels the organizer can choose to have it come before xc for obvious reasons) is the last part of the "test". It's purpose is to measure the horse's accuracy and fitness. IOW - how much gas is left in their tank WITHOUT exhausting them. So the course is much lower and looks puny compared to a real GP Jumper Olympic level course. I know if a competitor feels his horse has had enough, they will withdraw from stadium. BUT usually at that level - the riders and horses are extremely fit and can do it.

Not wanting to be part of this discussion, but I felt like I should just clarify for you and any other hunter person who is not familiar with eventing. (I am still at work and have worked close to 40 hours of OT since Sunday so I am just reading the BB to pass time).

sfir
Sep. 26, 2003, 07:34 PM
I rarely feel compelled to respond to such ignorance but finally felt an overwhelming urge to respond with so many challenges of event riders not being able to duplicate hunter/eq rounds.
As a junior rider I qualified for the ASPCA Maclay, VHSA, MHSA and Gittings Eq finals and competed in the AHSA Medal finals. I also have won numerous championships in the hunters and jumpers at AAA shows. I am now an event rider competing at Advanced. From my experiences in both worlds I think you would be surprised at how many event riders would be very competitive in the HJ ring. Ofcourse few event riders would lay on the horses neck over fences as is the fad in Eq these days - but I digress.
I think the truth here is by bashing other disciplines people really do show their ignorance. True horsemen would realize there is something to learn in all disciplines - not just the one that is your personal favorite. Eventers are no more yahoos than HJ riders are afraid to ride out of the ring. Training in every discipline requires dedication, patience, good riding and a great love of horses to be successful. The close minded people that shoot off opinions with bad or no information and refuse to learn what is outside their immediate 'world' are the ones that are missing out on what it takes to be a great horseman.
Ruthie

suwanneefarm.com

simplyshocking
Sep. 26, 2003, 07:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FoolForLove1:

Please try to understand that it works both ways. You may say that all hunter riders have to do is sit up and look pretty because the horses are so well schooled, but one could say that an eventer on a brave, honest, easy horse only has to kick and go. (They can forget about looking correct doing it, we can't.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, it is true that an eventer on a brave, honest, easy horse could probably get around a cross country course pretty easily. The thing is, not everyone has this type of horse. A lot of us have green OTTB's who are definitely not schoolmasters!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quite frankly I think that a top level hunter rider would have a better chance making it successfully around an event course than an eventer would on a hunter course.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well maybe you're right and maybe you're not but it really doesn't matter!! We do eventing, you do hunters! Why should we care if our horses are any good at hunters??? We don't do hunters!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I DARE any of you eventers to go take an equitation clinc with George Morris. I think you would be in for one rude awakening.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now this is a totally ridiculous statement! So, not all eventers have perfect equitation. Neither do all hunter riders! You think that just because you do hunters your equitation is perfect or something?? I'm sure some hunters would also be in for a rude awakening if they rode with George Morris.

Why go over a jump when there is a perfectly good path around it?

Pictures----> http://community.webshots.com/user/simplyshocking

FoolForLove1
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes, it is true that an eventer on a brave, honest, easy horse could probably get around a cross country course pretty easily. The thing is, not everyone has this type of horse. A lot of us have green OTTB's who are definitely not schoolmasters!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of us have green horses and OTTB's too!!!! You are not the only ones who have to work at it!!!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Well maybe you're right and maybe you're not but it really doesn't matter!! We do eventing, you do hunters! Why should we care if our horses are any good at hunters??? We don't do hunters!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we were on made eventers and you were on made hunters, we would be the better off. All we would have to do would be sucessful at physically making it around. You would have to find 8-10 PERFECT jumps, and look damn good doing it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Now this is a totally ridiculous statement! So, not all eventers have perfect equitation. Neither do all hunter riders! You think that just because you do hunters your equitation is perfect or something?? I'm sure some hunters would also be in for a rude awakening if they rode with George Morris.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right, not all hunters riders have perfec euitation, but they are judged on an overall presentation so they MUST not be falling off the side like some lunatic. And yes, as eventers you SHOULD try to make an effort in your body position. There is a reason riders are schooled in equitation. If your body control/position is better, your horse will jump better/cleaner. Maybe you should try it.

simplyshocking
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Some of us have green horses and OTTB's too!!!! You are not the only ones who have to work at it!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn't say that we were the only ones who rode OTTB's. I just said that we don't all ride perfect horses like the quoted person seemed to think.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If we were on made eventers and you were on made hunters, we would be the better off. All we would have to do would be sucessful at physically making it around. You would have to find 8-10 PERFECT jumps, and look damn good doing it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Like I said before, it doesn't matter because we do eventing and you do hunters. I don't care if I would do good in hunters!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You are right, not all hunters riders have perfec euitation, but they are judged on an overall presentation so they MUST not be falling off the side like some lunatic. And yes, as eventers you SHOULD try to make an effort in your body position. There is a reason riders are schooled in equitation. If your body control/position is better, your horse will jump better/cleaner. Maybe you should try it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So are you saying that eventers fall off the sides of their horses like lunatics?? This sounds more like hunter riding to me than eventing riding. I've seen tons of hunters who duck off to the sides like you've just described. Maybe some eventers do this too, but it only takes a few times for an eventer to learn that they have to sit up!
And eventers DO work on their position believe it or not! Our equitation is practical and functional. It doesn't matter if we are not absolutely perfect! Also, we do dressage! I'd like to see some of the hunters who always ride in a half seat try to ride a dressage test in a dressage saddle with dressage length stirrups. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Why go over a jump when there is a perfectly good path around it?

Pictures----> http://community.webshots.com/user/simplyshocking

dahlia
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:32 PM
I ride both H/J and dressage...and compete both.

I want to point something out here. A dressage rider knows exactly the test they will ride and has months to practice the exact course prior to the show (I think this has been said), further, the trainer can stand and read the test, but only the test. The rider also knows EXACTLY what time they will ride, say 2:07pm.

Now, I know a middle aged dressage queen with an FEI horse who her trainer SCHOOLS AT HOME on the day of the show, then bathes, loads, and heads to the show where now only the lady can warm her fine tuned horse up before her perfectly scheduled ride. She rides, her test is read, she collects her score, and goes home.

She does not watch anyone else ride or give a rats a$$ about anyone else's test. She plays to win. And she cheats without cheating doesn't she.

Are the 2 any different...NO.

FoolForLove1
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:42 PM
Ummm, wake up call. Your "Dressage" is a H/J rider's most basic flatwork. Would not be a problem.

porklet
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:49 PM
Umm - dusting the ashes off my flame suit - I do think that dressage is a bit more than "learning a test" for months - It's about training a horse properly. For years. Not months.

Anyway, I'm sorry my little 2am posts generated so much excitement. I am a little disconcerted that folks seem to think that Eventing kills horses, esp as (if I'm going to keep my rep as controversial) I think Hunters teaches the horse a bad way of going that ultimately leads to lots of painful probs from the horse not carrying him/herself right. Although I am sure we can all point to one or two horses in any athletic discipline with problems caused by that.

Anyway, I stand by my original posts and am dismayed to see that Lord Helpus didn't really read them.

As I thought I said, my opinion (and its just my opinion from observing and riding for about 25 yrs) is that Hunters do have a place in life - its just not at the same level.

Off to find a fire extinguisher.

simplyshocking
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FoolForLove1:
Ummm, wake up call. Your "Dressage" is a H/J rider's most basic flatwork. Would not be a problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? I'd like to see you ride one of the *** or **** tests.

Why go over a jump when there is a perfectly good path around it?

Pictures----> http://community.webshots.com/user/simplyshocking

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:54 PM
FoolForLove, doing "basic flatwork" and riding a dressage test -- in a ring, in front of a judge, where every tiny bobble is marked down -- are two vastly different things.

Have you ever ridden a dressage test? Not just the movements... an actual dressage test, in a dressage ring, in front of a dressage judge? Just curious.

BTW, dressage tests at preliminary include lengthening of the trot and canter, leg yield, and 10 meter circles. Probably equivalent to first/second level "straight" dressage. Advanced includes shoulder in, half pass, and flying changes. Which is probably around third level.

I'm sure it looks easy, but as so many people on this thread have said, just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

porklet
Sep. 26, 2003, 08:54 PM
Thank you simplyshocking - that was the part of the post I forgot and was just about to add ;-)

dahlia
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:02 PM
FoolForLove1 no, dressage, real upper level dressage, is NOT the H/J riders most basic flatwork. I train with both an A H/J trainer and an FEI dressage rider so I can tell you the difference.

There is a BIG difference between a H/J flying change and a real dressage flying change, trust me. But both are important for their respective sports.

Porklet, for me dressage is way more than learning a test, but for some of the DQ's I know, it really isn't. I never practice my tests at home. I train. But I see people who just drill tests. It is kind of sad, but it is their hobby and they can do what they want with it.

I think, unfortunately, not all riders have the same talent or feel for horses. As well, there are riders in both sports who just go to shows to win. But that is life outside the arena too.

You cannot make generalizations about either sport really, there are both DQ's and hunter riders who have grooms and trainers and basically just hop on for a lesson or show, and there are serious devoted students who do all the work themselves in both sports as well.

[This message was edited by dahlia on Sep. 27, 2003 at 12:22 AM.]

porklet
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:08 PM
Dahlia - as I said - there are bad examples in every discipline. I'm happy for you and your horse that you aren't one of them ;-)

Pity the horses that have to go through the bad experiences. They're too good to have some of the things that "happen" to them.

FoolForLove1
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:16 PM
Erin,

Yes, as an 11 year old I did maybe 5 training level shows.

And, as former well schooled big eq rider I can do all of the movements you have just mentioned. And have beed ASKED to do most of them in a big eq flat class or test.

dahlia
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:16 PM
porklet, lets face it, those horses "bad" expereince probably are nothing compared to what many people on this planet suffer...or dogs and horses in third world countries.

no matter how bad the riders, i think most love their pets, and the pets know it. so they tolerate it just like some people do with each other.

BTW, I have a confession...because I have no choice but to pay the groom fees at the shows when I go with my trainer so I go for broke and let them polish hoofs and boots for me...but that is not a luxury I have at home. Not to mention that I otherwise like to groom and care for my horse, my job permitting.

I read a quote once that said Dogs need people more than people needs dogs..and dogs know it. I think the same can be said of horses in the modern world.

dogchushu
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:17 PM
Thanks Erin. Sorry for the misunderstanding. We really need a word in English to distinguish the individual "you" from "you" meaning people in general.

Actually, one of the working students at our barn last summer was <gasp> an eventer! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif She rode my mare several times. Did very well on her too! It was a good summer. The mare got some confident rides (not something she normally gets from me) and, at the same time, taught the girl a bit about riding a hunter.

I, for one, am glad there are many disciplines. It give horses the chance to find the jobs they're best suited for and enjoy what they do. My mare was born to be a hunter. Trying to get her to do another job would be forcing a square peg into a round hole. Let's see:

* She'd probably make a mediocre jumper. She can do the turns, but she does not like to go fast--ever. God help her if a mountain lion ever chases her. The mare ain't got no speed!
* She'd be a sub-par eventer. Going out of the ring by herself terrifies her--I don't think you can take a buddy with you cross country.
* She'd be truly miserable as a dressage horse. She loves jumping and her natural movement is much more hunterish than dressage-like anyway.
* She already washed out as a race horse.

But, hey, hunters are her thing!



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

dahlia
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:19 PM
FoolForLove1
I was an eq rider as a junior and I am sorry, those test, while difficult, do not include any upper level dressage.

I just watched the medals here in So Cal and there were no renvers, half pass or tempi changes. It is very different. And, I like them both so I am not taking sides here.

FoolForLove1
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:21 PM
I never claimed to do upper level dressage in the eq. I claimed to have done alot of things Erin mentioned in her previous post.

dahlia
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:27 PM
Ok, but you did say earlier that dressage is H/J riders most basic flatwork and while I wish it was true--it is not.

Basic flat work is not dressage. And really, training level and first level dressage tests are not real dressage. They are just good basics. They are the foundation for the dressage work to come.

Dressage work begins with true collection (which is not the same as H/J shortening a stride).

I have found that 2nd and 3rd level dressage work builds a great top line that all the hunter judges LOVE. I think it gives me a real edge. IF all the hunter riders/trainers really understood that collection they would have toplines like my horses. Some do, most do not.

porklet
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:29 PM
dogchushu - Great post! Spot on!

FoolForLove1
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:30 PM
I was not refering to straight Dressage. I was refering to most eventer's versions of Dressage.

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:33 PM
Good for you. I "can" also do all those movements on my horse who's currently eventing beginner novice.

But just because I "can" do them doesn't mean we'd score well if I took him off to a real dressage show and entered him in second level. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's amazing how damn hard it is to score well on all those movements when you have to put them all together in front of a judge.

Dogchushu, I'm a fan of using "y'all" for that purpose... but sometimes people think that's a strange expression for a girl from Illinois. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dahlia
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:35 PM
I will admit right here I am not an even rider, but I do love watching the cross country. Out So Cal ground it just a bit too hard for the sport however.

At the upper levels of eventing some true dressage movements are required. I think it is wonderful for those riders to have to flat their horses in that way as I do see a lot of H/J rider who just hack on days they don't jump.

__________________________________________________ ________

"The definition of a true liberal is someone who has an open mind." --Arnold Schwarzenegger

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:37 PM
Uh, and exactly what would be "most eventer's versions of dressage"?

I would agree that novice and training level eventing dressage is "basic flatwork", as someone else just posted. But prelim and up is starting to ask for "real" dressage stuff.

Not to mention that at most competitive events (like any event in my area), if you aren't good at dressage, you're not going to place. There are just too many riders/horses who ARE good at it.

porklet
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:40 PM
Umm - I am again perplexed and maybe this thread should whisk itself off to the Dressage or Eventers board - BUT ! The vast majority of judges for dressage switch happily between "real" dressage and "eventing" dressage - which is fundamentaly just a different set of movements because it is a different test. But spend the winter at dressage schooling shows and whammo!

dahlia
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:43 PM
Erin, I was never a dressage rider as a kid, but I am addicted as an adult. All my hunter friends think I am nuts (though I have a great friend who like me does both!).

I want to tell you, I am showing my best hunter in 2nd level and I swear it is the reason she does so well in the hunter ring. It has been great for both of us.

I am curious how most event riders balance their training.

I like to jump at least once a week at home no matter if it is a dressage show I am preparing for that week or not. I do also do grid work, ride courses about once a week, and take serious dressage lessons at least twice a week. I think it drives my hunter trainer nuts sometimes. But we are doing well in both so I there is no question in my mind that each decipline enhances the other.

I am also curious... do you sometimes go work with a dressage only trainer and a jumper trainer rather than train in an event barn?

dahlia
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:55 PM
porklet
I believe some of our former olympic dressage riders came out of eventing as well. Eventing really brought dressage to the USA.

AND I do know from watching that the dressage score can win you the event.

So, back to the topic...I think the point of a H/J show is the same as a dressage show and probably that of a 3-day Event as well. To compete, to test oursevles and our equine partners, and to pay $9 for a cheeseburger while wearing a wool jacket in summer!

Backstage
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:55 PM
This thread has made for an interesting read.
I've heard comments about eventers and hunters alike that I can only pray are people deliberately stirring up trouble or reacting quickly to a hot button of their own.

Mostly, it dissapoints me. To find out an a public BB that my friends and I have no class, disturbs me. Interestingly enough, when I think of the people that surround me on a daily basis I do not equate class with their chosen riding discipline. But, I KNOW that most of you know and understand that and that the class comment (and others of that type) were not meant to be taken at face value... yet, honestly with no disrepect or tongue-in-cheek, I have lost some respect for some posters that I admire and, well, respect. Despite the fact, that I know that I was no being held as classless nor being accused of being a poor-cannot be redeemed rider due to my eventing roots.

Somehow, I am able to read countless threads on this board about drugging horses, trainers behaving unethically, horses being neglected, horses dying at shows/events and seperate individual stories/experiences/discussions from all the people that participate in a given discipline. I truly wish I (and everyone else) could be given that same curtosy from others.

As for the miriad of other issues on this thread...I will not purport to be able to ride to the lofty standards this thread seems to expect, I can, however, tell if my distance is going to be long or short and sometimes I can fix it, I can generally stay on, I am continually working on improving my horse's balance, suppleness and rhythm. When I need help or ask for advice, I don't ask the friend does jumpers/hunters/eventing/dressage because their discipline is inherently better, I ask the person/friend who has the ability/experience to help me with my issue, regardless of discipline, because one's discipline does not equate to an aptitude, ability or inability.


The Canadian Experience: the Windchill factor and the Humidex

Oxerbound
Sep. 26, 2003, 09:57 PM
Hi everyone. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I just wanted to voice my opinion. I've been riding for about 14 years, and eventing for the past 7. For 5 of those years my primary trainer (other than clinics) was a fantastic hunter/jumper trainer. For 2 of them it was a fantastic event trainer. My eventing trainer took things REALLY slow (almost obsessively) and was not very good about schooling one's position. My hunter/jumper trainer taught me more about riding than I ever learned from my event trainer, and she even convinced the owner of her barn to add some banks, ditches and other cross country obsticles to their property because she was so impressed about what they did for a horse's muscles and mind.

In the past year I changed trainers again to a former h/j trainer who now teaches event riders. This summer while in NY I went to a prominent HJ stable to take lessons. 90% of the people at the barn were just great to me and thought eventing looked really interesting and wanted to learn about it. The other 10% assumed I would have horrid form and be awful, and were a bit rude.

Anyway, I learned quite a bit this summer and was very happy with my instruction. Yes, I had some style issues to work out, like my silly left elbow that always drove my trainer nuts, but my overall position was fantastic. Now, by the end of the summer I was schooling the greenies in my lessons. My trainer was happy that I had such a good foundation in dressage and could teach the babies the ropes, because she found a lot of her students didn't know the way to TRAIN a horse into the bridle rather than getting on one that already knew. On the flip side, when I would make a horrid faux pas like get an awkward spot and do my "eventer-y defense position" (her words), we would both laugh and I'd do it over again. So it's not like I was a perfect rider or anything close (HARDLY!) The thing she appreciated most about my riding was the fact that even when things went rough, I could always get through it. God forbid I should lose my stirrups (I know, bad me!!), lose impulsion because of odd footing, and totally pop a fence and get hurled into the air, I simply rode through it and slipped my reins, closed my thigh (so I wouldn't slam on the horse's back) and move on. So it worked well for both of us, even though she never got tired of reminding me about my left elbow.

Anyway... my philosophy is this: You want to jump? Go to the jumping pros - the h/js. Want to do dressage? Go to a dressage trainer. Want to event? Go to both, shove away your stereotypes, and LEARN. Oh, and please take cross country lessons because it will be dangerous if you don't. I ABSOLUTELY HATE seeing these people flying around an XC course with atrocious position and not a thought about rhythm and balance. It drives me nuts.

Okay I'm half asleep and I seem to have rambled on here.. but please, can't we all get along? There's close-minded, prejudiced people in EVERY discipline. By insulting another sport one is simply proving that they have no class, and it reflects poorly on you and your trainer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

"The man who chooses not to read has no advantage over one who cannot."

Erin
Sep. 26, 2003, 10:05 PM
Well, right now I work with no trainer at all, but that's not by choice. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Most eventers I know work with a dressage person at least occassionally. When I was doing the Young Rider stuff as a teenager, I took a dressage lesson and a jumping lesson (with an eventer) every week. As an adult amateur, I don't think I'll ever have the time for that... I'd be happy taking a weekly jumping lesson and a monthly dressage lesson/clinic.

BTW, FoolForLove, I think this might be a better analogy, in regard to your comment about doing dressage for the big eq tests (it's late, the neurons aren't firing all that fast, so it took me a while to think of it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )...

My old prelim horse could easily jump a 3'7" stadium course. But NO WAY IN HELL would I assume that meant he could go out and be an A/O hunter. Sure, it's essentially the same thing -- jumping a course of 3'6"-ish fences. I could easily say, "Feh! It's an inch lower than *I* jump in eventing competition! Not a problem!"

Ha. There's no way he and I would ever have been competitive in the A/Os.

So please don't assume that just because you can do some of those dressage movements -- and perhaps do them very well -- in hunter competition that it would translate to "not a problem" in eventing or dressage.

dahlia
Sep. 26, 2003, 10:05 PM
original quote by oxerbound
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> my philosophy is this: You want to jump? Go to the jumping pros - the h/js. Want to do dressage? Go to a dressage trainer. Want to event? Go to both, shove away your stereotypes, and LEARN. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WELL SAID! I have never learned so much, had more fun and more horse friends as I do now that I ride and compete in two different deciplines with two different trainers. I might even try eventing one day if I ever live near softer ground. I am great at water and banks in the stadium so why not out in the field? Could be fun!

A real horseman (horsewoman) should indeed have an open mind and understand all horse sports.

Hey, anyone ever seen that western pleasure QH horse named Lark something do the Pas de Deux with Lendon Grey on her FEI horse? I think it was the Grand Prix jumping at Gladstone where I first saw that one.

eqnjumperrider
Sep. 27, 2003, 01:38 AM
Alright, I am in total agreement with FoolForLOve, I too, have done big eq, and I am currently doing Junior Jumpers. I wanted to mention a few things. The first being that stadium jumping in equivalent to doing a modified jr am. jumper course, which is not very difficult especially since only the advanced riders go up to 4 feet in eventing (so you would think they would be more skilled to do higher). Secondly, if one watches how eventers ride, in that defensive hunched over position, generally driving their horses way too much. Thirdly, as FoolForLove1 said, all the things that Erin mentioned I can easily do, that is basic flatwork Erin, nothing special.

Erin
Sep. 27, 2003, 03:13 AM
The point isn't that it's "hard" to do, eqn... the point is that it's hard to do well. You go run right out and do your dressage for a dressage judge, like the eventers have to do, and report back... THEN you might know what you're talking about. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Like I said, jumping a 3'6" hunter course wouldn't have been "hard" for my prelim horse... but you don't see me out here claiming the A/O hunters are easy, do you? Hmm... maybe that would be because I've taken the time to actually educate myself about the discipline.

Louise
Sep. 27, 2003, 04:54 AM
I haven't read this whole thread, so excuse me if I am repeating others.

I bet if some of these people who insist that because them have done hunters, they could do anything were to ask their own trainers if they could go do an event, or go before a dressage judge and do a test and do it well, their own trainers, if worth their salt, would say no, because you don't have the necessary training and experience. You could go and do it, and, hopefully, in eventing, come out alive, but you aren't going to do well because there are differences in each discipline.

For heaven's sake, even the muscular structure of the horse involved in the discipline has developed differently because of the particular sport they are engaged in. There is a world of difference between the long, flat muscling of the event horse, the bulkier, power-laden muscling of the dressage horse, and the smoother, sleeker hunter.

There is no easy discipline out there. Fer Gawd's sake, that could be why we call them disciplines, because you have to work your little butt off to do well, or even to improve; you have to "discipline" yourself. Don't be so arrogant as to think because you practice any one discipline, you are a better rider than those who practice others, because, somewhere down the line, you will learn otherwise, and it probably won't be pretty.

---------------------------
"This it be die most importante thing in die world, that someone they loff us."
Willem

spotz4u
Sep. 27, 2003, 05:03 AM
dcm
Why should Mary's opinion not be heard just because she hasn't posted as many topics as you to get herself higher status!! This board is not just for you & your friends to all agree on! (clique)
Some people ride to learn, some people ride to get that ribbon, some do both!
These kids parents are shelling out the big bucks and expect to see something at the end of the rainbow(ribbon) & that trainer is going to make sure that kid has a good day!
Be happy with your own accomplishments with your horse & don't worry about everyone else!! I try not to pay attention to any of that garbage when I show, it takes my focus off what I should be concentrating on! My horse!!

Madison
Sep. 27, 2003, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spotz4u:
Be happy with your own accomplishments with your horse & don't worry about everyone else!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that advice was followed by everyone, this thread and all the others like it that have come before it probably would never have existed, and certainly wouldn't have dragged on for 11 pages! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

Bugs-n-Frodo
Sep. 27, 2003, 06:30 AM
A good dressage round is difficult, yes, even at 1st level. A good hunter/jumper round is difficult, yes, even a 2'6" round. A good event is difficult, even at the lower levels. If all of this were not true, there would be not purpose in showing, we'd all be terrific. I have been riding for 24 years and have done both dressage and hunters, never eventing (though I have mucho respect for those who event) and I can tell you, NONE OF IT IS EASY. There is something challenging about all of it, why is it necessary to be so critical of other disciplines? We are all compeditive, that is why we show, but let's be respectful of everyone's disciplines. We all love what we do and we all love horses.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Amy
Owned by:
Cute as a Bugsear (Bugs) JC OTTTB (Isella x Annie Somebody)
Pippen (Frodo) ATA Anglo Trakehner (Paramoure x Cute as a Bugsear)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

trailblazer
Sep. 27, 2003, 07:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eqnjumperrider:
Alright, I am in total agreement with FoolForLOve, I too, have done big eq, and I am currently doing Junior Jumpers. I wanted to mention a few things. The first being that stadium jumping in equivalent to doing a modified jr am. jumper course, which is not very difficult especially since only the advanced riders go up to 4 feet in eventing (so you would think they would be more skilled to do higher). Secondly, if one watches how eventers ride, in that defensive hunched over position, generally driving their horses way too much. Thirdly, as FoolForLove1 said, all the things that Erin mentioned I can easily do, that is basic flatwork Erin, nothing special.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When was the last time you rode outside of the arena? When was the last time you rode in an open field? This is hilarious. Since there is (currently) no jumping in dressage tests, I guess they're worse riders than hunters and eventers, right?

Why don't you join Pony Club, take some lessons, and come back when you've mastered crossrails!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dahlia
Sep. 27, 2003, 08:38 AM
I have to say, I used to think dressage was silly. That a 10 meter circle was not hard, something I do all the time in my h/j training. But I agree with Louise, if you think you can do both or one is less difficult than the other, try being judged in the other sport before you run your mouth.

I starting showing dressage after 20 years of h/j riding and it was not easy. I got my first test with notes (I did well...63% at training level) and was surprised to read what the judge wrote about balanced circles and transitions.

11 years later, I have shown to I1 and my study of dressage was like learing to ride all over again in some respects.

But I want to add something more on topic..... H/J Shows are really more fun (than dressage shows)! The people watch each others classes, they clap, they get excited for one another, they hang out more. I have been in White fences, palm beach, ocala, indio and del mar for both dressage and h/j shows. I love dressage, but H/J is more fun. Sometime fun is the point you guys.

dahlia
Sep. 27, 2003, 08:47 AM
lexiboo

That is a good point you make about riding outside the arena. I love to go trail riding and jump SMALL natural obstabcles like logs, but few h/j riders I know will go with me. There are some though! And we have fun.

I have jumped in competition on large grass fields and it was very different than the nice footing in the arena. My horse was different, and the course was different. It was definitely a new experience the first time. I can tell you, the horses do feel like they haul a$$ on a course like that. Hardly a hunter ride.

I can only imagine what it is like to gallop over acres of ground out in the open and jump fixed obstacles. It cannot be simple.

trailblazer
Sep. 27, 2003, 09:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dahlia:
I can only imagine what it is like to gallop over acres of ground out in the open and jump fixed obstacles. It cannot be simple.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not simple! But you know what? Neither is ANY discipline! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif The people here who do not understand that simple fact have probably spent too much time here (http://www.horseland.com/) and not enough time around real horses! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

dahlia
Sep. 27, 2003, 09:07 AM
lexiboo - LOLOLOLO ROFL, you're right!

Well, I am off the the flintridge show this morning. Anyone want to see me, come on down! This is a h/j show and we've been having fun all week.

Flintridge (http://www.flintridgeridingclub.org/)

I think I will change my signature tonight to:
"The point of horse shows is to eat $9 hamburgers while wearing wool in summer." -me

Midge
Sep. 27, 2003, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
Thanks Erin. Sorry for the misunderstanding. We really need a word in English to distinguish the individual "you" from "you" meaning people in general. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The word is 'one'.

Alex, I'll take grammar for 100, please. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AOHunter2002
Sep. 27, 2003, 02:20 PM
lets not start a grammar thread...we all know what happens with those

~*~"When your horse greets you with a nicker, nuzzles your chest, and regards you with a large and liquid eye, the question of where you want to be and what you want to do has been answered"~*~

BarbB
Sep. 27, 2003, 03:48 PM
Not really joining the fray, but someone asked about instructors.
I work with a dressage instructor (FEI competitor, 'r' judge) and my jump instructor is a hunter/jumper trainer. My horse is at a barn that is primarily hunters, a handful of jumpers and 3 (three) eventers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I think a lot of people do something similar.

BarbB

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings

Tapestry (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/)

DMK
Sep. 27, 2003, 04:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AOHunter2002:
lets not start a grammar thread...we all know what happens with those<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We all learn something and have a great deal of fun in the process? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I mean let's face it, the last one was hysterical. How else would I have learned about RomJul for the L33t?

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Giddy-up
Sep. 27, 2003, 04:04 PM
Wow! I was thinking of maybe possible taking my hunter turned jumper next summer with some event friends to "try" out their sport for a change. But now I fear the ridicule & embarassment I will receive when others hear that OMG, I came from hunter/jumper land!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

People, this has gone on for 12 pages when I think I summed up the whole reason of horse shows way back on the first page. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Let me add though that I have been rolling on the floor laughing at some of the comments & stories that have been posted. Some excellent entertainment!

poltroon
Sep. 27, 2003, 05:53 PM
(never fear, Giddy-up, a lot of eventers come from hunter-jumper land. You won't be shunned! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

The more I learn about different disciplines, the better horseman I become. I started out riding the hunters, jumpers, and equitation, and I loved it. I loved the primping, I loved the striving for perfection, I loved the subtlety and tact. I loved the tough eq workoffs most of all, and always was excited to ride for someone who would really test us, like Victor Hugo-Vidal. I catch rode a lot of horses, and schooled a lot of sale horses.

After college, when I was looking for a place to start riding again, I happened to find a trainer who dabbled in dressage and jumpers. And then when he left, a three-day trainer came in, and I liked her too. When she found me a lease horse and took me cross country, I was hooked. Little jumps, but my first time over terrain. I was scared silly but solid because of my strong foundation and good eventing instruction, and had a great time.

The skills are different. I can still ride a nice hunter round, but now I have a bigger toolbox. And now because my horse is older, we've focused on dressage, and I've had the chance to ride some nice dressage horses. Again, it's eye-opening.

I really want to try cutting horses next. I just hope I don't fall off in the first 15 seconds... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

porklet
Sep. 27, 2003, 06:57 PM
Giddyup

Wow! I was thinking of maybe possible taking my hunter turned jumper next summer with some event friends to "try" out their sport for a change. But now I fear the ridicule & embarassment I will receive when others hear that OMG, I came from hunter/jumper land!!



Do it, do it, do it! You will NEVER be rediculed at a HT. REALLY - and you WILL have a blast! A huge number of eventers are from H/J backgrounds.

Oxerbound
Sep. 27, 2003, 07:02 PM
Totally do it if you're interested! A girl I know started doing the occasional event (she is still major into hunters) and she really loved it. Most people just commented on how beautiful her stadium round was, although some asked her why she did the XC at a showring canter!

"The man who chooses not to read has no advantage over one who cannot."

hedgehog
Sep. 28, 2003, 02:55 AM
Kind of an amusing thread. All the disciplines have their strengths and weaknesses. They all have their peculiar demands. I don't compete but I aspire to ride as well as the eventers. I figure if I can do that then I can take my horse anywhere and do anything.

I have a picture of David O'Connor going over a big XC fence. That is the mental image that I carry for what is good technique and form.

The one thing I question on this thread is this. How did people decide that the technique and form used by the hunters was the ideal way to ride a horse? Its a form that is only good for the hunter ring. If you try to ride and jump that way out in the open, you're going to eat a lot of dirt.

pwynnnorman
Sep. 28, 2003, 03:48 AM
I was thinking about starting a new thread that asked, "Why does perceived hunter-bashing result in 12 pages of posts?"

You know what I think? (As if anyone cares :-) I think the we KNOW there are "issues" out there in hunter-land (and jumper-land and eventer-land and dressage-land...) After all, no sport is perfect.

But HUNTER PEOPLE (you purists, that is), if you take a moment to trot on over to those other boards, you'll see a heck of a lot of SELF-CRITICISM, of the sport, the people, the riding, the personalities, etc.

For some odd reason, on those boards, it is soooo rare for people to get up in arms when someone criticizes some BN or known rider or something like that. Arm-chair riding seems to be a lot more OK in non-hunter-land. Indeed, overcoming flaws, acknowledging mistakes, etc., seems to be PART OF THE GAME "over there."

I remember the lively arguments that arose about some BN event rider who rode really badly somewhere and had something of a history of "issues" and even had been publicly criticized by some other BN. That discussion had NOTHING of the tone of some of the catfights that go on here.

I don't know why this is the case, but I do wonder if it isn't related to the subjectivity and "secrecy" (please note I put that word in quotation marks) of hunters. There's no real record of why or how--and unlike other disciplines, an "interpreter" is VERY necessary to understand the sport itself and succeed at the top levels. (Interpreter = Trainer) That isn't the case with the other sports (yeah, you need a trainer, but the hand-holder trainers just don't exist).

I really wonder if those are the reasons why--subconsciously perhaps?--12 primarily defensive pages of posts can arise from a little criticism. It's not at its heart due to the people involved. It's how the structure of the sport has evolved.

Is that need for an interpreter--because of subjectivity and secrecy--resulting in exhibitors who are perhps a little less confident, less secure, more sensitive about their sport? (Please, I don't mean to be insulting. I stand firm on the need for standardized judging criteria as the healthiest way to improve and market the sport--that's where my comment is coming from, OK?)

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com

JustJump
Sep. 28, 2003, 05:23 AM
WOW 12 pages...have I missed all the fun? (Have I read all 12 pages? GOSH NO!!)

Really, DMK seemed to sum it up on page 1, but people WILL go on, won't they? I guess H/J people are nothing if not sensitive...

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

o2binca
Sep. 28, 2003, 06:15 AM
_________________________________________________
Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
But HUNTER PEOPLE (you purists, that is), if you take a moment to trot on over to those other boards, you'll see a heck of a lot of SELF-CRITICISM, of the sport, the people, the riding, the personalities, etc.
_________________________________________________


I have not been to the other boards, but I think if you read some of the other threads on the HJ section of this board you will see plenty of self-criticism, and also appreciation of the problems involved. This thread, on the other hand, has been fueled by criticism from a few select people in other disciplines.

_________________________________________________
Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
Is that need for an interpreter--because of subjectivity and secrecy--resulting in exhibitors who are perhps a little less confident, less secure, more sensitive about their sport?
_________________________________________________

I think what you call sensitivity (what I would call annoyance) arises from the frequency people take low blows at the sport. Most HJ people are happy to explain their sport to anyone who wants to know or has a genuine question. But it gets annoying when people who clearly do not, or make no attempt to, understand the hunter world make rude personal comments and agressive uneducated judgements about a sport one loves and to which one dedicates a large part of their life.

Now if you'll excuse me, I think my trainer is done drilling my horse, so I have to go and ride.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by o2binca on Sep. 28, 2003 at 10:34 AM.]

dcm
Sep. 28, 2003, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spotz4u:
dcm
Why should Mary's opinion not be heard just because she hasn't posted as many topics as you to get herself higher status!! This board is not just for you & your friends to all agree on! (clique)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif spotz4u, my problem with Mary started when she initiated this thread in an inflammatory manner. Later, she clarified and got answers. But did she leave it at that? No, she flammed again. Then other eventers joined in the party. Much later, Mary apologized for this getting so out of hand. I have no problem with that.

I have a lot of respect for both sports of eventing and dressage, but have a fond spot for hunters. I don't have a lot of respect for people who purposely demean another person's sport, especially when they cross over into thar person's own backyard and then expect that person to meekly accept. Nor do I like the idea that many eventers think they know how to 'fix' hunters. I don't think it needs 'fixing'. There is bad and good in all sports and eventually it gets weeded out.

And what does my number of posts have to do with anything? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Higher status? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

And a big http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif to what o2binca said! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

dahlia
Sep. 28, 2003, 08:37 AM
Ok, we are showing at a H/J this week and when I am done I have some things I want to write....

I did watch the Beginner Hunters yesterday and listened to the trainers coaching from the rail...if was fine. Those people are beginners at a BIG show and they were all nervous. I thought it was great. Most were telling their students to relax and what to do on a very basic level. I think it was helping the riders get through the course more than cheating to win.

ALSO, looks like there is a cross country course at this place so I will check it out.

Off to the show....I am sure my horse is nearly braided now as it is 8:40 am here.

dcm
Sep. 28, 2003, 08:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dahlia:
Ok, we are showing at a H/J this week and when I am done I have some things I want to write....

I did watch the Beginner Hunters yesterday and listened to the trainers coaching from the rail...if was fine. Those people are beginners at a BIG show and they were all nervous. I thought it was great. Most were telling their students to relax and what to do on a very basic level. I think it was helping the riders get through the course more than cheating to win.

ALSO, looks like there is a cross country course at this place so I will check it out.

Off to the show....I am sure my horse is nearly braided now as it is 8:40 am here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have fun dahlia. Will they let you ride (not jump) your horse near the xc course? At Willow Ridge's H/J show, you are not allowed to do any more than walk around on foot near the xc course. Something I could totally understand. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

Erin
Sep. 28, 2003, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:

I don't have a lot of respect for people who purposely demean another person's sport, especially when they cross over into thar person's own backyard and then expect that person to meekly accept. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One more time.

I never said, and I don't think anybody else ever said, that anyone should "meekly" take criticism.

My point was that if ONE ( http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) stoops to demeaning another sport in response to being demeaned, ONE is a kettle calling the pot black!

What I DO expect from reasoned adults when their sport is criticized is a logical argument, a patient explanation, an impassioned description of the love they have for their sport, etc. I do NOT expect something along the lines of "Oh yeah? Well, YOU can't ride!"

dcm
Sep. 28, 2003, 09:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
What I DO expect from reasoned adults when their sport is criticized is a logical argument, a patient explanation, an impassioned description of the love they have for their sport, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin, I think this was done many, many pages ago. Unfortunately, some people did not believe that was acceptable, so they continued to question the legitimacy of hunters, many in a not so nice way. Also unfortunate is the fact that some from the hunter discipline got a bit out of hand, too.

Each sport has its own merits and reasons why. If it is ONE's decision to compete in a sport, then that is ONE's sport. ONE shouldn't go to another's chosen sport and presume to tell them how to ride.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

DMK
Sep. 28, 2003, 01:31 PM
I think part of the "sensitivity" has to do with the specific topic, not so much that the h/j folks are any more thin-skinned than other disciplines. I'm pretty confident if one tried to troll by telling the average h/j person that we canter too SLOW around a course, we would break out the merlot and brie, and have a damn fine time talking about who had the slowest round ever. I'm sure we would learn that some of us took 3 days to complete 8 fences. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Most of us:

a) LOVE our sport - we are here of our own free will;
b) recognize that the sport is not perfect;
c) recognize that not everyone in the sport lives up to the ideal; and
d) know what the problem areas are.

So when someone from outside the discipline takes a potshot aimed at those problem areas that is a generalization to boot, it tends to raise more hackles than normal. Even legitimate inquiries get handled poorly once everyone's temper is up. And this is so not limited to the h/j folks. All you need to do is read one thread on the eventing forum when a horse is destroyed on course or as a result of injuries received on course.

Yes, I have seen the sensitive side of the eventing group when somebody outside their disipline comes trolling or even asking a legitimate question in a clumsy way. Because just as the h/j folks know they have the rap for being overly trainer dependent, the eventer folks know they have to deal with that issue. And it really doesn't matter that it's not fair or right to stick everyone associated either discipline with that rap. When someone basically accuses everyone of being the worst case example, for some strange reason people get upset. Gee, wonder why? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Madison
Sep. 28, 2003, 01:38 PM
Amen, DMK http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I agree.

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http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

Midge
Sep. 29, 2003, 12:17 PM
Erin, you and dcm are number ONE in my book! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

dahlia
Sep. 30, 2003, 07:33 PM
Ok, tried some cross country jumps I found were at another private farm. I went slower than I have seen you eventers go I must confess. It was a trip--not like 8 or 10 hunter jumps....and certainly not comparable to the safety and comfort of the hedge lined dressage ring.

Didn't even do it on my own horse. She would kill me out there. It takes a special horse and a special bond I would think.

I want to practice a few of them if I get them chance again, but don't think I have the huevos to run balls to the wall and jump through a tree. You guys got huevos!

__________________________________________________ ________
"The point of horse shows is to eat $9 hamburgers while wearing wool in summer." -me

DizzyMagic
Sep. 30, 2003, 09:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dahlia:
Ok, tried some cross country jumps I found were at another private farm.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's how it starts, dahlia, that's how it starts! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dahlia:
"The point of horse shows is to eat $9 hamburgers while wearing wool in summer." -me
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now that has GOT to be something that all three of these disciplines have in common!

pwynnnorman
Oct. 1, 2003, 10:30 AM
Maybe I'm being subconsciously blind, but I can't say that I've seen that many of these kinds of threads "over there" at all.

But as I think about it, the fact that there are jsut MORE PEOPLE over here may explain it as well.

STILL, come on, guys, surely you can see that, whether I'm right or wrong about the "sensitivity" issue, if you coudl go home with a detailed score sheet (whether you got it from the judge or had your armchair-trainer-who-also-happens-to-be-your-mom fill it out while watching) you'd feel a lot less lost without a trainer? Maybe you wouldn't be able to keep track of everything you did right or wrong, but you'd at least have some independent and confirmed idea of your OWN. Wouldn't that make you feel better--if it coudl be done?

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
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Rosie
Oct. 1, 2003, 10:51 AM
pwynnnorman,
you've got your threads mixed up. THIS thread is all about the lack of skill/horsemanship it takes to be a h/j rider.

The thread you're looking for - all h/j riders are overly dependent on trainers - is under another topic heading. (ring juggling or some such...just look for the OTHER 14 page thread)

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

rileyt
Oct. 1, 2003, 11:32 AM
Oy vey. What have we sunk to?

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif