And so it begins... The shunning of the TB for WBs in the CIC format [Archive]

deltawave

Aug. 11, 2003, 06:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tuttifruitti:
running with shear delight, attacking the fences with relish, and on to the next challenge. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I, too, will be sad if the TB is "phased out" as the Most Popular Breed of Eventer. I am a huge supporter of the TB industry and would hate to see the breed become "obsolete". I must point out, though, that that is VERY unlikely to happen, in that even the "non-TB" breeds that are now being touted for upper level eventing almost ALWAYS have a LARGE proportion of TB blood.

Happily, we don't HAVE to "choose" TB or not-TB (that is the question... :LOL: ) Through intelligent breeding, we can get the best of both worlds!

I snipped tuttifrutti's quote, above, to mention that that is EXACTLY how I would describe my warmblood cross mare's attitude on XC. Call it her TB blood, but the courage to do well in eventing is NOT unique to TB's. My pure TB was the least-brave horse I have ever ridden XC. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Toby2Socks

Aug. 11, 2003, 07:06 AM

I don't think we have to say goodbye to the TB, but just welcome another breed. I really think it's the heart that counts.

<3 Toby Two Socks <3

[edited to fix something]

Gry2Yng

Aug. 11, 2003, 08:58 AM

It is the heart that counts and the glorious gallop, but none the less, it makes me feel good to know that horses off the track can have VERY successful careers elsewhere. I worry that the number of good homes will disappear as people look for crosses.

Also, don't forget Darren's horses. I also know a few competing at I and P right now that are doing very well.

quiet girl

Aug. 11, 2003, 09:45 AM

as long as eventing requires courage, the thoroughbred will not become obsolete.

tommygirl

Aug. 11, 2003, 09:56 AM

could be just another trend that will phase itself out. Eventually, people will get tired of the scores being .05 apart, and make the XC longer and add the other phases back in... I hope.

RacetrackReject

Aug. 11, 2003, 10:17 AM

I would like to add that I have seen Rusti's gorgeous stallion Winston competing in person with Ralph Hill aboard and he gave many TBs a run for the money, but my heart is in the TB.

Heather

Aug. 11, 2003, 10:27 AM

OK, so here's what I don't get . . .

I love TB's, but have ridden a lot of other breeds too. I have a barnful of OTTB's right now, because the rehoming of these guys is becoming an important issue for me. However, I just bought a foal, who is definately a crossbred (5/8s TB, 1/8 Arab, 1/4 Clyde).

If you/we/they don't want the TB to be phased out . . . then why doesn't everybody just buy one anyway? I mean, I guess I don't get it--I read all these threads lamenting the demise of the TB in evenitng, but if we all put our money where our mouth is and kept buying TB's, well then, TB's would still be the dominant horse, right?

I mean people who don't enjoy them won't own one whether or not they turn eventing into a three days of cross country only, and I KNOW there are OTTB's to be had with the temperment, gaits, and scope to be copetitive with crosses on the flat and over fences. So, if you love TB's, buy one and then they won't "disappear". If you want a cross, because it's abetter horse for you, buy one of those.

I understnad that if you want to be a Team rider, you have to buy a horse that will be competitive, which may or may not be a full TB, but for the rest of us with no pink jacket aspriations, why not just buy the horse you like, and make it as competitive as anyone else's?

The only way the TB will disappear is if people stop buying them. Since I don't see that happenening anytime soon (if for no other reason thatn the cheap price of OTTB's will still appeal to cheap eventers), then I don't see the TB disappearing from the sport. At the olympic/WC level? Perhaps, but so what? I don't see a lot of APpy's at that level either, but if you event out West, then you know if it weren't for Appy's, half the divisions wouldn't fill. So, if you love TB's, then buy one!

RacetrackReject

Aug. 11, 2003, 10:39 AM

I think the people who are diehard TB fans will keep buying them, but we, as a society, seem to be mindless drones at times, so we buy whatever is "in" or whatever the people at the top are riding. In 8 years, if every top level rider is cruising around on big WBs then every low level rider with any sort of aspirations will want to have one too.

I'm not in the H/J world, but didn't this already happen there?

Heather

Aug. 11, 2003, 10:51 AM

Well, that's already happened to an extent, but it hasn't changed my buying habits, nor those of most (equally poor) people I know.

If you have that sort of money, you probably aren't buying OTTB's anyway, at this point, so it won't alter your plans.

Some people will always follow the fad.Others won't.

pgm

Aug. 11, 2003, 11:00 AM

Horses with some warm bloods lines mixed into their heritage have always been proven performers in this sport. For a horse to be successful, he simply needs to have the speed, scope, bravery, agility, endurance, and above all heart. These qualities we normally associate with the English, American, Austalian, and New Zealand bred horses.

But non-standard breeds have always been represented. (If Poltroon didn't come to your mind you need to learn more about the sport.) And any horse that has the qualities we prize in anopugh quantity will be successful no matter what his breeding.

The problem is that the Europeans (read: Dutch and Germans) aren't breeding these types right now and as a result they aren't winning eventing medals. So rather than bring more TB blood into their porgrams, they are putting inordinant pressure on the FEI all in the name of Safety. We are now supposed to bend to their ideals of what a horse should and should not be. How very Aryan of them.

I can name dozens of sucessful Warm Blood crosses, each with plenty of scope gallop and heart to compete at the 4* level. I can also point to many that simply give up once the courses get to 10 minutes or longer - they lack endurance and heart. They will, however, kick ass at the average horse trial. Simply looking at the posts above and similar posts regarding Stuart horse Trials and you will find examples of this very problem.

The Europeans appear to think that, based on no analysis or data whatsoever, reducing the severity of the tests, reshuffling or reprioritizing the qualities we prize in event horses, they will create a more marketable and safer sport. How do they know? Have they done even one tenth of the work that we did in the run up to the Atlanta Games to find the safest competitive model? Where is the marketing plan? Where is the Public Relations effort? Where is the data? Truth is, they haven't done a thing. They are making assumptions that may or may not bear themselves out as true. But what if it turns out that this new format is actually more dangerous? Where will our sport be then? In my opinion, this move is gambling with the future of our sport in a very dangerous way.

Anyone who thinks that is takes less fitness to gallop around a twelve minute four star Cross-Country without incurring serious injury, than it does a comparable three day event is smoking something. In order to jump effectively over that long a course, the horse will need to be super fit. And in order to be rideable, he should be properly warmed up. The problem is that with no appropriate warm up, the first six minutes of these rounds may be thrilling in a way I don't want to see. Warm bloods of the type the Germans are prizing will not be able to compete anymore at this new format than they do now. They will still be slower than a fat man pushing a wheel barrow and they will still require their riders to carry them home after minute 10.

Okay, so we shorten it to 6 minutes. But that means we are now celebrating a sport that does not exist at the top levels of equestrian sport. Its like we are now going to say that the 10K road race is the pinnacle?

Yeah, that's a sport I want to see. NOT.

P

KateDB

Aug. 11, 2003, 11:17 AM

pgm - your posts always crack me up. Well-said!

And Heather, I agree with you, too. TBs can certainly be successful. People have to buy them and put the time into them, no different than now, frankly.

Although my "cross" may not quite have the grit of a TB, he has one helluva a gallop and was bred for his job, so don't knock ALL non-TBs.

One thing you can give and still keep is your word.

deltawave

Aug. 11, 2003, 11:43 AM

pgm, I think I'm on the same side as you are (I'd love to see the 3-day format unchanged) but what's to stop a rider who really thinks his horse needs a thorough, "roads and tracks" type of warmup to do well on XC from going out for a half-hour hack with a short gallop beforehand?

All sports evolve. I'm no expert on the topic but have a hard time believing this whole trend is due to a bunch of WB breeders whining because their horses aren't competitive at the top of eventing. Depending, of course, on how you define "warmblood", I daresay almost every horse that's been winning *** and **** 3-days for the past few years has NOT been pure TB, whether they're advertised as such or not.

Case in point? Gorta Glen, (aka "Cheese") who won the Jersey Fresh CCI** this spring. He's an "Irish crossbred of some sort" (David O'Connor's own words) but is listed in the "Eventing" magazine as a thoroughbred. We need to be a little more precise in how we define a horse's breeding...if a horse is "7/8 TB" doesn't it suggest something different to you than "warmblood/TB cross"? I'm always puzzled by the inconsistencies in breed descriptions...heck, even most "straight" warmbloods have a TB parent or grandparent these days! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

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colliemom

Aug. 11, 2003, 11:48 AM

I have come to know the joys of the Thoroughbred in this sport only in the last few years. I started in Eventing about 7 years ago, on my wonderfully brave quarter horse mare. Soundness issues sidelined her (though she is now teaching a kid to ride Beginner Novice!) and I was convinced by all I read and all my friends to get a TB. I have not looked back.

Using a massive generalization, the warmbloods are out to protect themselves at all costs while the TB's always seem to find more inside. It's the "TRY" that I love about them, and it's the "let me figure out how I can get out of this" that I dislike about WB's.

Mine is a typical chestnut TB mare with all of the tenseness and difficulties in dressage that come along with that particular generalization. But man, can she jump and gallop. I may not ever get to the upper levels, but I have a strong feeling that she will. My trainer told me last week that if I was too discouraged and disappointed with the dressage phase with this horse that I should sell her as a jumper and get something "steadier", but that this horse jumps the moon and is brave and bold, and THAT is what the sport is about.

This is where I think the "phase out" will come, though, especially at the lower/local levels. Let's face it, we adult amateurs like to do well and place well and sometimes come home with a nice ribbon for our skyrocketing entry fees. My mare almost always finishes on her dressage, but she is also often last after dressage. Can she do it? Yes, she is actually pretty well schooled, but she gets tense and nervous. Mileage will help, but she will never be a winning dressage horse.

And if the winning dressage test at the lower levels is in the low 20's on a big round steady correct WB, then I will fall further and further behind, and it doesn't matter how brave and bold and catty and clever my TB is, she will never "catch up".

While this will not coerce *me* into selling my horse, and I don't see myself ever getting a warmblood personally, I can see how it can have that effect on others. People want to be able to be competitive, and gallop-fit TB's are definitely NOT competitive in the dressage phases of lower level events.

I will continue to ride my TB, and compete, and hope to finish up the board now and again as we get more mileage, because I want her heart and guts and power to be under me on cross country.

Robby Johnson

Aug. 11, 2003, 12:09 PM

What annoys me about this - and has since the beginning - is this idea of mass hysteria. Big freaking deal - let everyone rush out and buy a warmblood. To make the time at a CIC when you're jumping the same number of elements over a shorter track (and therefore a shorter optimum time) you're going to need a horse who can land and get going. As much as I like the big "slightly crossbred" horses (Lynn, I would daresay the attribution to "Irish Thoroughbred" probably came straight from the mouth of David O'Connor since he has long been one to call those crossbred horses "thoroughbred" when, indeed, they are "crossbred"), it's not going to be a 1/2 Old Style Dutch horse x 1/2 TB that's going to win.

I don't think this shift in eventing is going to cause the demise of the TB as a sport horse. I think there are many who are purists who will always ride a pure TB. And there are many who would rather breed a TB for sport. This doesn't mean within the next six years we'll see no more thoroughbreds.

Robby

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RacetrackReject

Aug. 11, 2003, 01:23 PM

No one said that there wouldn't be any TBs around eventing, just that there could be a sharp decline in them, could be.

As for TBs being the only ones that can make the time, who is to say that the next step in making the sport "safer" is not going to be to increase the time allotments?

Xctrygirl

Aug. 11, 2003, 01:55 PM

ok first off I got a huge pet peeve that is further irritated by this type of thinking:

That the breed defines the horse. That the parents and other relations matter more than the horse who is staring you in the eye!!!

I choose a horse to compete on based on the horse himself. I could give a rat's butt who he is related to and what breed he is. True I choose predominantly Tb's for myself, but I am now riding a Tb X Han at work and I gotta say I adore him.

But more than the temperments are the raw abilities. Not all Tb's can run all day and vice versa not all Wb's can't run all day! So why don't we see more people buying the horses based on the skills and abilities that a horse has, rather than "Oh he is related to Secretariat and Northern Dancer." or "His sire was Galoubet and his dam is related to Volturno!"

Whoopity doo... he still jumps like a deer on a the hood of a Jeep!

Quality is apparent (or not) in horses regardless of their lineage. And yes I know... so and so line's produce x type of jumpers, or x type of movers, or x type of temperment. Thats great to know but don't ignore what you see in front of your own eyes.

As far as the CCI vs CIC future.. I am of the belief that if in the process of this shift we still get to keep our sport, then I am all for whatever way that is achieved. I would prefer a CCI future, but a CIC is better than no eventing. And besides safety concerns we have urban sprawl issues eating away at our future as well.

SO for me, I pick being able to ride cross country 15 years from now, and if its on a mule from Uruguay, I'll still be happier than a life without the sport I love.

~Emily

"The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"

FairWeather

Aug. 11, 2003, 02:21 PM

XC--though I agree with your post, I cant help but recall something you said when looking at the pedigree of a recent aquisition of mine referring to the 'nobody' pedigree. My response was similar to your message--i dont care who the parents are, I only care what the horse can do. And this really isnt meant to be insulting, or inflammatory, but more a quesiton of "do you, or dont you", not only to you but to most folks who say the same thing.

pgm

Aug. 11, 2003, 02:22 PM

Again, the only things that are worth mentioning in this argument are the ways the FEI leadership has run rough shod over the qualities we emphasize in the performance and the sloppy, political, and wholly unprofessional process by which change is been effected by the leaders of the sport.

With regard to the qualities that we emphasize, the changes being effected have been implemented without regard to the characteristics of the performance we are trying to keep as the ideal. I couldn't give two craps about what breed your horse is, as long as the qualities we cherish and have cherished in the past are emphasized. (Bravery, scope, speed, endurance, athletic prowess, You know- the "Look of Eagles" stuff, the "Horses That Gods and Heroes Ride" attributes we've come to worship.) To be sure, fat clunkers come in all breeds (and I, myself, am proof of that). And I am sure that at the lower levels, the fat boys have a very useful job to do (besides being outrider's horse.) I have always felt that an athletic warm blod or WB cross was the best breed type to select for an Amateur or Young Rider. But we aren't talking about changing the sport in the middle levels. We are talking about the pinnacle. Change at that level without regard to preserving the best of these qualities and you risk aspiring to mediocrity.

We already don't go as fast as the steeplechasers, we don't jump as high as the jumpers, and our dressage sucks. So now we're gonna dumb down the one thing that makes the sport generally unattainable at the highest levels? What's up with that?

With regard to process:

If those of us with professional employment outside the equestrian world acted on the scant evidence and thinking that these guys have put into this move we would either be out of a job or a member of Congress. The short format may be the competitive model that makes Eventing more popluar around the world, increases the safety of horse and rider, makes it more marketable and helps the developing countries create viable Olympic teams.

We already have decades of experience and data on the current Long Format that shows, without question, that the long format is safe for the horses. Yes, that's right. In the run up to the Atlanta games, researchers showed that the trot of Phases A, the gallop of B, then the cool down trot of C is, in fact, a great way to prepare the horse's system for the exertion of the 12 to 13 minute XC test. They instituted a few minor adjustments, and were able to run two back to back three star Olympic CCIs...

in July...

in Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

"Summertime and the living is easy...." Those of you who remember 1978 know how far we've come.

And has the FEI done any research whatsoever on the shor format? No. Do we know how horses will react to a 12 minute XC test with a stadium jumping style warm-up? NO. And what of the "goals" of safety, sport development, marketing, and reducing costs, how does this address those goals. It doesn't.

In Lieu of specific, studied, safety improvements, they've dropped phases A, B, and C.
In lieu of a marketing plan, they've dropped A,B and C.
In lieu of increase qualifications to make sure riders at the Olympics are qualified properly, and safe to compete, they have dropped phases A, B, and C.
In lieu of attempting to create media outlets they've dropped A, B, and C.
In Lieu of developing a PR program that will assist in managing PR around the world related to accidents, they have dropped Phases A, B, and C.
In Lieu of teaming with Olympic organizers to reduce costs and assist in finding sponsors, they have dropped Phase A, B, and C.
In lieu of doing research and analysis that will show what paths would be best taken to achieve these goals, the FEI, in all its wisdom, has chosen to drop phases A, B, and C.

You have to say this for them, these guys are slick. They are going to be successful at implementing a one size fits all plan, with no basis in fact.

And who is our representaative on the FEI committee? The uSA, gold medalists from the FEI WEG, the richest country in the world, the country with arguably the most FEI level events in the world...

doesn't have a representative on the committee.

Well no wonder we haven't been heard.

ThirdCharm

Aug. 11, 2003, 02:40 PM

You know, considering the fairly SMALL minority of riders who compete at the top levels which will be affected by this change.... and the fact that anyone who competes at the lower levels, and can AFFORD a warmblood, already has one, the TB market is not really going to be affected that much IMHO..... the lower level rider on a budget is still going to buy a TB. And where do you think the up-and-coming upper level riders with budgets get their horses? From the lower level riders on budgets :-)

JenniferS

Robby Johnson

Aug. 11, 2003, 02:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pgm:
If those of us with professional employment outside the equestrian world acted on the scant evidence and thinking that these guys have put into this move we would either be out of a job or a member of Congress.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly what annoys me!! I'm so thankful you said it like this!

Robby

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GotSpots

Aug. 11, 2003, 02:56 PM

Pgm: print that out, sign your name (heck, you can sign my name too) and mail it to David O'Connor, to the FEI, to the Olympic Committee and to everyone else you can think of. I may not always agree with everything you say, but on this one: you go! Absolutely right.

Boss Hoss

Aug. 11, 2003, 05:43 PM

I believe the movement won't be AWAY from the TB, but to bring more TB blood into the WB equation, and develop a "sporthorse" that is best suited for a CIC format. The WB might do very well in dressage & stadium, but going 570 mpm is pretty freakin fast for a big bodied WB to go...without the jumps in the way!

You can see the "fads" even in WB breeding..what is past today won't be passed in 5 years, but again in 10 years. I've seen certain ones go from the big dressage horse to the light event model..WBs are faddish to begin with..all depends on their intended use and who's buying.

So who's gonna be on "top" of the pedigree..the TB or the WB? Seems like there are more TB mares eventing and that you might bring in WBs from Dressage and Show Jumping for the eventing sporthorse offspring.

Maybe it's time for an "American Event Horse Association" that helps direct the breeding of the future event horse (CIC or CCI) and might possible stop relying on the failures of the TB racing industry to fuel ours. This is not to insult all the good horses recouped from that industry, BUT they are considered the "waste product" of that industry.

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Gry2Yng

Aug. 11, 2003, 06:44 PM

WELL SAID PGM!

Xctrygirl

Aug. 11, 2003, 09:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
XC--though I agree with your post, I cant help but recall something you said when looking at the pedigree of a recent aquisition of mine referring to the 'nobody' pedigree. My response was similar to your message--i dont care who the parents are, I only care what the horse can do. And this really isnt meant to be insulting, or inflammatory, but more a quesiton of "do you, or dont you", not only to you but to most folks who say the same thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See now here is the difference. From being employed to gallop race horses, I further developed a hobby of mine, tracking pedigrees. I do like to research bloodlines. I do know a fair bit about them. But they do not influence me on an EVENT prospect.

They would influence me on a race prospect. Since the world of Tb's nowadays is bred to race, not event. Thus the lines from family to function are more indicative, but I still always allow for exceptions to the rules.
Anyone (no offense intended to anyone) but anyone who seeks the likelihood that a grandson of Mr. Prospector will event well, based on pedigree alone is going backwards. These are not event bloodlines. Thus any event horse to come from them will be sheerly based on luck and an unwilligness to run fast!!!

So yes I knew that your newest horse was not of remarkable bloodlines, but I am still awaiting seeing it, in person, to assess (my opinion) of its sport horse prospects. Since that is not something I do on paper, but rather I do in the saddle or on the ground.

As an example, I own a fairly nicely bred horse. One I had no clue about his breeding when I purchased him. And even given his nice breeding and decent race outings as a 2 yr old. None of what I have researched and found indicates he will be a supreme event horse, as he is now becoming.

So yes I do walk the walk and talk the talk. Pedigrees are not of influence to me in a buying or evaluation decision. But pedigree's do generally intertest me. So I research and find out more.

~Emily

"The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"

Robby Johnson

Aug. 12, 2003, 03:21 AM

Emily,

I think it would be best to recognize, again, that the horse is the horse and if it events and has Mr. P as a grandsire, then *that* is when Mr. P will suddenly become accepted as an eventing bloodline. There is no other way to know if they'll be competitive until you sit on them and go.

I hope to God most breeders of event horses will have the good sense to put the TB on top, since this is the better practice of improving the mare.

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
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RacetrackReject

Aug. 12, 2003, 03:50 AM

Rather timely article in COTH. I'll post some excerpts and a link to the whole thing.

"“The tough, difficult, $1,100 off-the-track horses that many of us started with just don’t have a place in the sport any more,” said Darrah Alexander, an advanced eventer who also buys and sells horses at TreeLine Farm in Pine Plains, N.Y."

"Show Jumpers At Fourth Level

Tougher dressage standards are changing the standards by which these riders evaluate event prospects as well.

“In the old days, you’d see an average horse getting good results with a great rider,” said Davidson. “Now a great event rider needs a great event horse to be competitive.

“A top event horse now needs to be a show-jumper quality jumper and a competitive fourth-level dressage horse,” he added.

“You have to take in the whole package now when you look at young horses,” said Costello. “I used to be taken in by the outrageous jumper and galloper. But now the horse needs to be an above-average mover with a calm temperament. When I go horse shopping in England now, I turn down nice horses trotted up before me that I would have sat on a few years ago.”

Still, most riders doubt that the horse trials format of the Olympic CIC will cause them to look for a different type or breed of horse than they are now.

Butts noted that the CIC*** has as many jumping efforts as the CCI***, but in half the distance (3,600 to 5,000 meters instead of 6,200 to 7,400 meters).

“The CIC horse may not have to run fast for as long, but he’ll need to be speedy around the shorter distances, as well as agile and quick–a sports car instead of a big, cruising limo,” she said.

But Weissbecker said he’s “not convinced the CICs will make ours a warmblood-dominated sport. You’re still going to need a quick horse who can gallop a long distance. For me, that’s going to be a Thoroughbred.”

The difference, said Davidson, is that a good cross-country horse needs to be controllable so he can turn efficiently. “The classic, long-strided Badminton horse will have a tough time over these more technical courses,” he predicted.

Davidson said that the breeding program he and his father, Bruce Davidson, run at Chesterland now incorporates stallions with grand prix jumping and dressage bloodlines.

Alexander has just bred her advanced-level Thoroughbred mare, Brimstone, to an Oldenburg stallion with a dressage and show jumping background. And on her last buying trip to England, she purchased two 5-year-olds–one a 7/8th-bred, one a Selle Français.

She hopes these horses will be able to handle a trend Kulak noted. “There’s been a distinct trend in cross-country to have clusters of difficult, technical complexes–almost a fast show jumping format–that make you accelerate tremendously between the jumps to make time,” said Kulak. “Whether it’s a CCI or CIC format, you need a horse clever enough to handle this sort of technicality, but quick enough to make the time.”"

"Costello also contests as many jumper shows as possible when he’s not eventing. “Show jumping is only going to prove more influential in the CIC format, so we’ve just got to find the time for jumper shows if we want to stay competitive,” he said.

Agreed Weissbecker, “I think event riders are just going to have to find the time and wherewithal to go to Florida in the winter, spend time with show jumping trainers, and compete with good riders in that discipline, so that we become more competent.”

Davidson has worked with show jumper Aaron Vale for the past several winters in Florida. In fact, he competes all his horses on the jumper circuit while he’s there.

“Certainly the exercises I practice at home are more difficult than they used to be,” Davidson said. “You’ve got to expand your comfort zone. Where I might have schooled an oxer-to-oxer [combination] with 24 feet in between before, I’ll set up that combination with an 18-foot distance now. I also use skinnies and corners in all my schooling–teach a horse to jump straight and they’ll jump clean.

“I’ve learned not to protect my horses at home,” said Davidson. “You’ve got to gallop down to jumps and put them in the wrong stride and not help them.

“If you’d seen me in the warm-up at Rolex, you’d never dreamed I’d have a clear round. [Mystic Mike] got right up under everything and bumped into a bunch of jumps,” he recalled. “But then you can go out there and help them in the ring.”

And then he added, “We’ve got to train our horses to be more like jumpers–so they learn to take care of the front rail themselves.”"

"“You can already see the filter-down effect, with a better riding standard and a better quality of horse at the preliminary level, for example,” she said. “We’ll have to experience the new Olympic format a couple of times before we can determine what type of horse will excel in that structure. My bet is a high-quality Thoroughbred.”

Buck Davidson would like to see one change, though: “More emphasis on canter work in our dressage tests.

“And I’d like to see more vertical-faced jumps cross-country so riders can’t gallop down at 700 meters out of balance and get away with it,” he added. “Our sport isn’t about kicking on anymore; it’s not all a power game. It’s about finesse and control, and the education among riders is so much higher than it used to be.

“But I still think a quiet American Thoroughbred is the best thing going,” Davidson emphasized, “ if only you can find one or breed one.”"

http://www.chronofhorse.com/features/03/eventers_nofaking.html

Gry2Yng

Aug. 12, 2003, 05:05 AM

While I agree, you have to judge the individual, there is certainly evidence that certain racehorse bloodlines result in excellent sporthorses. I would never discount a good looking horse because he has humble beginnings, but if I see the bloodlines I like I am more interested in the prospect.

The ability to jump in good form and have nice movement is definitely an inherited characteristic, so why wouldn't you believe that a TB with these traits should have brothers and sisters with these traits?

Timex6979

Aug. 12, 2003, 05:19 AM

Quite honestly, as long as the dang horse does it's job happily and willingly, and gets me over the jumps without killing, who really cares what breed it is?

Xctrygirl

Aug. 12, 2003, 05:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
Emily,

I think it would be best to recognize, again, that the horse is the horse and if it events and has Mr. P as a grandsire, then *that* is when Mr. P will suddenly become accepted as an eventing bloodline. There is no other way to know if they'll be competitive until you sit on them and go.

Robby
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Robby, did you not read my first post at the bottom of page 1 ??????? (I hate when I get the last post of a page, no one reads it !) It says this exactly.

~Emily

"The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"

Xctrygirl

Aug. 12, 2003, 05:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Xctrygirl:
Quality is apparent (or not) in horses regardless of their lineage. And yes I know... so and so line's produce x type of jumpers, or x type of movers, or x type of temperment. Thats great to know but don't ignore what you see in front of your own eyes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I mean, sure certain lines produce great jumpers, etc. but many people buy off the names of kin alone. Not by adequately looking at the horse. Believe it or not, some Amazingly bred to jump horses, cannot jump. Some amazingly bred runners can't run. All I am trying to say is to judge the horse on its merits alone. The family, if its a nice one, is an added bonus.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>SO for me, I pick being able to ride cross country 15 years from now, and if its on a mule from Uruguay, I'll still be happier than a life without the sport I love.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I equaly do not care what I sit on if it will do all 3 phases and not run me through a forest of trees, out of control and bucking. (Which yes I know is a habit that can be trained out of it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

~Emily

"The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"

fernie fox

Aug. 12, 2003, 05:46 AM

Everybody,Please go back and re-read "pgm"s post.

PGM. I don't know who you are,But I wholeheartedly agree The facts that you have brought up here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

IMHO.They are dumbying the sport down,for there own reasons.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

FairWeather

Aug. 12, 2003, 06:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Xctrygirl:
So yes I knew that your newest horse was not of remarkable bloodlines, but I am still awaiting seeing it, in person, to assess (my opinion) of its sport horse prospects. Since that is not something I do on paper, but rather I do in the saddle or on the ground.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, he's three 'new' horses back, and already in his new home with Fellow COTH'er June http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

Boss Hoss

Aug. 12, 2003, 08:24 AM

I don't see this as dumbing down the sport..the sport is evolving, based on many reasons..some well thought out and some not it appears.

I don't think you are going to find cross country dumbed down at the upper levels just because there was no endurance phase in front of it. If anything I think you might find it becomes more technical since the horse now has a full energy cell to work with. Will we have more clean rounds and dressage deciding it? time will tell.

Now it might help "smart up" the other phases if instead of getting cheap horses that don't want to run fast, we actually start breeding based on EVENTING experience. And along with this we EXPECT to do better in dressage and show jumping..and it already appears better dressage will be needed as the scores continue to increase in %.

You are going to find MORE TB mares eventing than WB mares..so when it comes time to breed you are going to have the WB on top in most cases. The important part is that BOTH parents have the skills needed..but also remember that two eventing parents can STILL produce only dud. So would you rather have a WB that can run faster, or a TB than runs slower? I'm not sure the "stallion improves the mare" is anything more than a cliche.

I think its also been expressed that breeding to steeple chase horses will also improve upon the WB lines for eventing. However the TB has the agility edge we need in the equation...because "agile warmblood" doesn't always happen.

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

Robby Johnson

Aug. 12, 2003, 08:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
I don't see this as dumbing down the sport..the sport is evolving, based on many reasons..some well thought out and some not it appears.

I don't think you are going to find cross country dumbed down at the upper levels just because there was no endurance phase in front of it. If anything I think you might find it becomes more technical since the horse now has a full energy cell to work with. Will we have more clean rounds and dressage deciding it? time will tell.

Now it might help "smart up" the other phases if instead of getting cheap horses that don't want to run fast, we actually start breeding based on EVENTING experience. And along with this we EXPECT to do better in dressage and show jumping..and it already appears better dressage will be needed as the scores continue to increase in %.

You are going to find MORE TB mares eventing than WB mares..so when it comes time to breed you are going to have the WB on top in most cases. The important part is that BOTH parents have the skills needed..but also remember that two eventing parents can STILL produce only dud. So would you rather have a WB that can run faster, or a TB than runs slower? I'm not sure the "stallion improves the mare" is anything more than a cliche.

I think its also been expressed that breeding to steeple chase horses will also improve upon the WB lines for eventing. However the TB has the agility edge we need in the equation...because "agile warmblood" doesn't always happen.

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : http://www.coolbreezefarm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mark,

Since the Arabian was put on the native English mare stock to produce the Thoroughbred, I will absolutely contend that the practice of putting the blood on the top is the best formula for improving a mare. A mare, as you shoudl be aware, should be of high quality if you want to produce stellar offspring. As should the stallion.

R.

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

LisaB

Aug. 12, 2003, 08:44 AM

Okay, here goes ...
Agreed, whatever the breed is, as long as it jumps, dressages, and is bold as hell, it's in. The horse could be green for all we care. While it's nice to have a good pedigree to back up that chunk of money we just plunked down, it's not necessary if all the pieces and parts are put right. I do admire breeders who are making a concerted effort to produce an event horse. Thank you.
Now, removing the phases from the Olympics. I have to completely disagree with BossHoss. The endurance phases make a HUGE difference about the type of horse that can do the original intention of a 3 day event. Can you imagine some of these horses going across the Black Forest in WWII Germany and still have time to hurdle over barbed wire barricades the next day to get that secret message to some general? Yes, we have evolved, etc. but so has dr and stadium but their essence is still the same. Dressage still requires all those things listed in the pyramid and then presence and flair to boot. SJ still jumps higher faster and cleaner. Our sport has changed in the Olympics. Our key factor was to go for miles and then jump all the jumps. Doing a 3 day is a totally different animal than a horse trial. You are different, your horse is different, the training is different. I was listening to some advanced riders this weekend and it was totally different mind set to be prepared for the ***. They were talking about things I would have never imagined. And to remove the other 3 phases would be a detriment to the essence of a 3 day.

tle

Aug. 12, 2003, 08:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I don't think you are going to find cross country dumbed down at the upper levels just because there was no endurance phase in front of it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, so you don't see where taking 3 phases away from an event and no longer requiring the skill set necessary to complete those 3 phases equals "dumbing down the sport"??? I realize you've never competed at a 3-day and I've only done one, but that would be akin to taking away 3 quarters of the football game. Does that make sense now and can you see where it becomes dumbing down? yes, you still need the technical skills to do offence and defense, but over a much shorter course you no longer need the endurance and stamina that has become such an integrated part of the sport. Those skills will be lost, as LisaB said, to the detriment to the essence of a 3 day.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:11 AM

Robby, don't you think the "put the blood on top" theory is a little anecdotal and unproven? Meaning, has it ever really been put to the test? When you're talking about the Arabian influence on what became the TB, the reason was probably more logistics than anything else: lots of folks had mares, but there were only a few Arabian stallions. Plus, the stallion can produce dozens of offspring in a year, making the relative influence greater. You had 3 "foundation" sires, all Arabians, to whom the entire BREED can be traced. This would have been IMPOSSIBLE with just 3 foundation MARES, no matter how spectacular, because of the limited number of offspring they can produce.

This, of course, is still the case, but other than anecdotal stories and that old "tried and true" saying, I've yet to see any scientific evidence that putting the "blood" on the top or the bottom makes a bit of difference. IMO it's one of those things people are fond of saying because it's "traditional", but there's nothing to back it up.

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
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Robby Johnson

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:16 AM

I would liken it moreso to the power of a pure gene pool on the ability to effect a significant amount of change in an F1 phenotype.

I realize you have a homebred out of a TB mare with "blood on the bottom" and I don't mean to say that a "blood on the bottom" is inferior! You know I love me some Bonnie! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And you know I also considered strongly breeding my TB mare to a non-TB stallion.

But I think if you want to retain a high degree of athleticism for your cross, you should put the TB on top. I say this, too, because I feel anyone bringing a mare to the shed should be doing so because she herself has been proven as an athlete and because she herself has faults that could stand improving.

There is also a lot of anecdotal evidence that the foal will be influenced/inherit the dam's disposition so why not put a kind crossbred mare to a TB stallion in the hopes that your offspring will be more athletic but retain the qualities of the crossbred?

I think you will agree that if you put your Bonnie to a TB stallion you would have a more athletic/typey horse. But if you put her to an RID, you would definitely have a horse of more substantial, traditional type. That 50% of gene pool affects a significant display of characteristics and qualities. I'm not saying what is better - that definitely depends on the breeder's goal. If I, as someone breeding a horse for myself to ride when I'm, say, 50, were looking at her as a broodmare, I'd definitely be looking more at the RID. But as someone at 32, who might be looking at a horse for myself to event - maybe a three-day - in my late 30's/early 40's, it would be the TB stallion. Because I know the TB x Bonnie cross would be closer to the TB side of town in terms of type and ability.

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:22 AM

No, I'm not saying one is better than the other, and certainly not because I have a certain type of horse...I have ALWAYS been puzzled by the way people cling to this "blood on top" theory (long before I went stallion shopping) and have yet to see anyone come up with an explanation as to why it's "better" other than "I think it's better" or "everyone says it's better" or "those guys in Ireland say it's better". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I think if you want to retain a high degree of athleticism for your cross, you should put the TB on top.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I mean...WHY??? (not attacking, but you're a thoughtful guy and am wondering what your exact reasons are for feeling this way)

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

Robby Johnson

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:31 AM

Well, if we follow any sort of chronology - probably best since we have no numbers or other laboratory data - we have to look at the fact that the TB was indeed created by 3 different Arabian stallions. Arabians being an ancient breed of a very pure gene pool.

So 400 years later our TB has reached that level of purity as well.

Look at the TB's who made a significant contribution to modern WB development - Ladykiller, Furioso, etc.

Look at the TB's now who stand poised to make that same contribution: A Fine Romance, Salute the Truth, Innkeeper, Loyal Pal, Reputed Testamony, etc. All of these horses are used to improve mares who missed out on vital genetic contributions during the F1 cross.

If pressed I would have to assume the ideology stems from the fact that the Arabian was used to create the TB. Hey, I'm not questioning that formula at all! The proof is in the pudding!

But as breeding relates to eventing, I again would only like to say that horses being bred for upper-level eventing, as it sits now, will probably be by TB stallions. Whether they come from Europe or not.

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

Gry2Yng

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I have ALWAYS been puzzled by the way people cling to this "blood on top" theory (long before I went stallion shopping) and have yet to see anyone come up with an explanation as to why it's "better" other than "I think it's better" or "everyone says it's better" or "those guys in Ireland say it's better". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you just have to look at the breeds that have been "blood on top" for years. The proof is in the horses. Trakhners, Selle Francais are two examples and they excel at eventing. J I Smith at The Oaks, uses the blood on the bottom and her horses tend to be show jumpers, holsteiners are heavier horses with less blood.

As far as a horse having more "in the tank" to do Phase D, when Phases A-C are eliminated. I disagree. Phase B is the "Speed" part of speed and endurance day. It is also your warm-up for the jumping phase. Instead of cantering around a field over colored poles, you do 8 steeplecase fences. Gets your horses blood moving, thinking forward, etc. A and C are warm-ups and cool downs. The system was set up with a purpose. I think Jimmy W or his father said a properly conditioned horse jiggs back to the barn on Speed and Endurance day.

I don't care if I have a jigging WB or TB on the way back to the barn, but I want to keep the CCI. Horse trials are like having sex without the big O. It is all well and good, but the rush is not there.

Yes, there is a rush after the xc at a horse trial, but let me tell you, if you haven't three-dayed, you don't know how good it can get.

tle

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I don't care if I have a jigging WB or TB on the way back to the barn, but I want to keep the CCI. Horse trials are like having sex without the big O. It is all well and good, but the rush is not there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
That HAS to be the funniest but most true statement describing the difference between a 3-day and a horse trial that I've ever heard! Thank you!!

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Janeway

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:51 AM

I'm with Deltawave on this one. I have always believed that the "blood on top" theory had come about more because of equine demographics and need.

In warmblood breeding, the majority of the mares in Germany way back when were big warmblood mares, they wanted to lighten them up, so they added "blood" in the form of thorougbreds, anglo-arabs and Selle Francais. It wasn't as if a group of german breeders sat around a table drinking Heinekens declaring that from this day forward "da blud must alvays be on ze top" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It was more a matter of what they had in the fields. If they had had nothing but delicate mares, perhaps the theory would be different.

Look at the Selle Francais: it was created based on the TB, the anglo-arab and the French Trotter. Not because someone thought that blood had to be on top, but because those were the main horses in France that were considered ideal for creating the showjumpers they wanted.

It does work that other way just as well too. Look at Welton Crackerjack: he was a relatively big boned Irish Draught cross and when crossed on top of TB mares, created a plethora of top eventers. Same with Catherston Dazzler now, yes he is part TB, but not all, and substantial to boot, but on top of a TB mare he creates top class offspring.

I definitely think its the matching of the mare and stallion together that creates a good horse, regardless of which one is on top.

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:

I think you will agree that if you put your Bonnie to a TB stallion you would have a more athletic/typey horse. But if you put her to an RID, you would definitely have a horse of more substantial, traditional type. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, obviously! Cross # 1 would produce a 3/4 TB, and cross # 2 would produce a 3/4 Irish Draught. You can't prove to me, though, that putting a half-ID stallion to a TB mare would produce a strikingly different type of foal than a TB stallion to a half-ID mare. I just can't see that being valid, anecdotes notwithstanding.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> But as someone at 32, who might be looking at a horse for myself to event - maybe a three-day - in my late 30's/early 40's, it would be the TB stallion. Because I know the TB x Bonnie cross would be closer to the TB side of town in terms of type and ability. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And again I'll agree with you here, but you're talking apples and oranges...a 3/4 TB (no matter how you make one) is going to be WAY typier than a 3/4 ID.

I still think the "blood on top" is done much more because of convenience and logistics than because it's proven in any way that it's superior. It's not blood, after all, but chromosomes, and when they are combined there is no longer a difference as to which gamete they came from. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 09:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I definitely think its the matching of the mare and stallion together that creates a good horse, regardless of which one is on top.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, exactly my point...though I daresay unless you've got some adventurous horses the stallion is usually on top! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And boy, I sure have a lot of fun at Horse Trials...doubt I'll ever do a 3-day but I don't feel like I'm missing anything, Gry! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

Boss Hoss

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:07 AM

You're football analagy is wrong...if you must dumb down the conversation..we're not talking about changing the LENGTH of one phase. Now if football players had to go swim 2 miles and ride a bike before hand..it would have an impact on the game. We're discussing a sport that is reducing down to 3 phases...so you might not need as FAST an athlete to complete the steeplechase, we're talking about a different skill set requirement. And this would bring UP the other phases as well. The TB may become LESS of the desired skill set, but I'm saying the WB is not the absolute answer..but a combination is.

I'm sure there is no comparison between a 3 Day and a Horse trial as to the experience..however I do not believe the original intent of "eventing" was for the horse, but for the cavalry soldier first. The sport has evolved since the cavalry was mechanized..this will just be another phase of evolution...or would you rather have extinction?

I believe the mare is given more credit for the outcome of the foal because of the behavioral influence it has on the foal for the first 6 months of its life...not the genetic influence. The herd environment or LACK of also has a big influence on the foal..but then it comes down to the desired discipline of the owners and their skill sets. Some of the best horses have probably NOT found their way to the Davidsons for training...they remain at the amateur ranks.

I would argue there is an advantage to having the WB on the bottom genetically..that means there is already an established breeding direction involved in the warmblood that contributes more to the overall athlete produced than the TB mare that is typically recouped from the racing industry...going fast is what matters.

And it will be faddish..look at Fresians in Dressage. A couple barns introduced them into dressage and look at the fad the popped from that..everyone had to have a Fresian. But only the original Fresians introduced are really doing all that well. Now the next fad will be Andalusians..

So I suspect the "Be Like Mike" theory will apply and if the Davidsons or O'Connors get connected to a certain breeders suddenly we'll all want to "be Like Buck!" and go get our selves the flavor of the month.

My favorite breed is .. the "diamond in the rough".

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

Boss Hoss

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Because I know the TB x Bonnie cross would be closer to the TB side of town in terms of type and ability.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You said your self the genetics are 50-50? Wouldn't the ossfpring have 50% TB abilities and 50% Bonnie abilities?

Its all a crap shoot in the end. My parents are BOTH 5-2 to 5-4 .. and I'm 6 ft... who improved upon who? Should I have been 5-3 instead? {but let's not get personal}

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

JER

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:21 AM

Anyone here remember the 1992 Olympics? Barcelona, late summer, outrageous heat, animal welfare concerns?

The winner of that very difficult 3-day was Kibah Tic Toc, a WB cross. I think he was TB/Hannoverian, and he was no spring chicken, probably 14 or 15. The silver went to the mare Feine Dame, herself a WB, even older than the winner (16). I can't remember who took bronze. Anyone?

1992 was 11 years ago. Our sport is still dominated by mostly-TB, whether the cross is draft, light draft, WB, pony or Arab. So long as advanced eventing requires a horse to gallop 570m per minute over obstacles, horses will need a generous amount of TB blood.

[Now I'll go back to my vacation. I had a lovely blast around an Irish Novice course (3'6" with lots of good technical combinations) on a typical Irish-bred: short and stocky, feet like dinner plates, full feathers in summer, lots of knee action. Can't quite gallop like my TBs (ok, so he was, as the Irish say, as slow as a week in jail) but he gets the job done if you keep kicking.]

tle

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>You're football analagy is wrong...if you must dumb down the conversation..we're not talking about changing the LENGTH of one phase. Now if football players had to go swim 2 miles and ride a bike before hand..it would have an impact on the game. We're discussing a sport that is reducing down to 3 phases...so you might not need as FAST an athlete to complete the steeplechase, we're talking about a different skill set requirement. And this would bring UP the other phases as well. The TB may become LESS of the desired skill set, but I'm saying the WB is not the absolute answer..but a combination is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My analogy may be off but the only reason I tried to come up with something was to attempt to explain how off your original statement about how dropping the first 3 phases was not dumbing down the sport. So chill with the person attacks Mr. Hypocrosy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

2 of the skills necessary for a 3-day are speed and endurance... yet you're arguing that taking away a 3.5 minute steeplechase (at I believe 650 or so meters per minute) AND approximately 1 hour of trotting/walking doesn't dumb down the sport. Egads, what are you smoking?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>however I do not believe the original intent of "eventing" was for the horse, but for the cavalry soldier first<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would also disagree with you here. Everything I've read says that the sport developed from test that DID test the horse -- obiedent on the parade field, brave sound and fit on the battlefield, yet strong, sound and obiedent enough to endure a SJ test the day after a hard battle.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

subk

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:26 AM

Getting to this discussion rather late...

First, I have to say I resent the implications made by several posters that I ride a TB because I can't AFFORD a WB. Get real people.

Secondly, PMG, I don't know who you are either but I think your observations of the FEI are right on. I too, would encourage you to sign it and send it along!

Boss Hoss, having ridden at both the CCI* and CCI** level let me assure you that you are pushing water up hill with your arguement. XC without Phase A, B, and C is easier. Period. There is no amount a technical stuff you are going to add that will compare to the technical difficulty of completing the last 2-3 minutes of an "all-inclusive" XC. The changes you suggest in terms of technicality are being addressed in Stadium. For a more well rounded athelete to win (which I think is the crux of the whole point) the questions of Stadium and XC should be diverging, instead they are becoming more similar.

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:42 AM

Robby wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Because I know the TB x Bonnie cross would be closer to the TB side of town in terms of type and ability.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then Mark replied:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>You said your self the genetics are 50-50? Wouldn't the ossfpring have 50% TB abilities and 50% Bonnie abilities?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What Robby was comparing was a TBxBonnie cross vs. an IDxBonnie cross. He stated (correctly) that the TBxBonnie cross would be more TB-like, seeing as how that cross would be 3/4 TB. Make sense? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fact is that if Bonnie should ever prove herself worth reproducing, that I would indeed likely choose a TB, but ONLY, in her case, to "lighten" her half-Irish Draught self. She's a chunky monkey, and if I were breeding her at all it would be to produce a "sport horse" and a 3/4-bred seems to be a very popular and successful cross. What I continue to insist, though, is that it doesn't MATTER which parent has all the "blood". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If Bonnie were a COLT, and similarly proved her(him)self worth breeding, I'd likewise choose a TB *mare* for the same reason, and I'd expect the same result: a 3/4bred who is lighter than its half-ID parent and more substantial than its TB parent.

And FWIW, I have never really seen this as an issue of "dumbing down" the sport. Who is assumed to be "dumber" if that is the case, the riders? The horses? If you went back to the days of horrible dressage, iffy stadium and a hell-for-leather XC round being the most important criterion, then that would fit my definition of "dumbing down" the sport: you no longer need a well-rounded, balanced, trainable horse with courage and a good education...you just need one with GUTS. Same for the rider. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Janeway

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:47 AM

I just clicked on your picture links Deltawave: Bonnie is indeed a lovely mare! What are her bloodlines? I really liked the look of Gwen as well; is she also part ID?

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 10:57 AM

Janeway, thanks! My girls are my pride and joy! (next to my human "colt", of course...) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bonnie is an IDSH...Mountain Pearl (http://www.solutionfactor.com) RID x TB. Her mama (the TB) is Kelly, the other mare in my list of photos. That photo of Bon was taken during the brief period as a 2yo when she wasn't rump-high and gawky looking. She's 3+ now, chubby and still varying between rump-high and sort of OK, but is pretty "correct" overall if I do say so. She could use another inch or two of neck, but seems like she will be the type that can pack me around Training level, at least! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif She certainly has the "alpha mare" temperament to be an eventer!

Gwen is 5/8 German WB (mostly Hanoverian, some Oldenburg) and 3/8 TB. She's one of those horses that looks a lot better "in motion" than she does standing still. She's also pretty correct, but nothing breathtaking...until she moves! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If I ever bred Gwen I would once again choose a TB, but again, NOT so I could put the "blood" somewhere or other...it just so happens that I collect mares, and am indeed a TB fan, so that's how I would choose. Repeat after me, though...I DO NOT NEED ANOTHER HORSE. I DO NOT NEED ANOTHER HORSE... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

subk

Aug. 12, 2003, 11:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by deltawave:
If you went back to the days of horrible dressage, iffy stadium and a hell-for-leather XC round being the most important criterion, then that would fit my definition of "dumbing down" the sport: you no longer need a well-rounded, balanced, trainable horse with courage _and_ a good education...you just need one with GUTS. Same for the rider. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which of the old days would you be refering to?

I've been watching the upper levels since 1978 and those characteristics have NEVER been the general critia for any of those successfull in the sport. Yes, there has certainly been significant improvement in the technical abiltities of the upper level horses and riders in ALL 3 phases. And at the same time while I can't speak for the jumpers, I can tell you there has been a similar advancement in the technical abilities in the straight dressage world in this country during the same time period!

Me thinks you may have omitted some pertinent facts for the convience of sterotyping.

SimpleSimon

Aug. 12, 2003, 11:13 AM

Just going to jump into the fray for a minute and then go back to lurking (which I'm thoroughly enjoying as this is interesting conversation).

To address Deltawave's (whom I respect immensely) question regarding is it the riders or the horses that are being dumbed down..I'd say really it is the question that is being dumbed down...or in other words - the challenge is less.

back to lurking...

Robby Johnson

Aug. 12, 2003, 11:32 AM

The layer I'll add regarding genetics (since I'm certainly no geneticist but, during my time in Biology II in 12th grade Ms. Mary Ann Ingram would send me to the chalkboard to work Punnett Squares since otherwise I was prone to falling asleep) is that it would seem the TB gene pool is "prepotent" for passing on certain traits. Those certain traits (speed/stamina/agility) are all desirable at upper-level eventing and, let's face it, most upper-level English disciplines. Why not improve a cross-bred mare with a TB stallion? If you know her foal is going to be lighter and more athletic, why would you put her to anything else?

I'm not saying the cross is foolproof, just more bankable to me. If you're going to opt for a WB stallion to complement a TB mare, look for one who is himself of some TB breeding. I think a 3/4 Tb x 1/4 WB/ID/QH/whatever is almost always a very useful animal.

I'm also biased in that most of the crossbred horses I see are by TB stallions. The English horses by Primitive Rising, Saunter, and I've seen a bunch of A Fine Romance babies by different mares (some TB, some not).

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 11:32 AM

Subk, yes, I was taking the "quick" route and stereotyping. Just to make a point, honest...and no offense intended. It does seem to me, though, that the pervasive "attitude" towards eventing, even though I was only ever a spectator back in the '80's and early '90's was that "What you want in a good event horse is a bold, XC machine. The rest is gravy." Forgive me if that's not correct, but that's kind of how I heard it back then from my viewpoint as a non-participant-spectator.

And SSimon, you're probably right, but I guess "dumbing down" just wouldn't be a term I'd use to describe courses that are getting more *technical*, if less physically herculean in their demands.

The term "dumbing down" was also used at one time to complain about the rule changes that made qualifying for Prelim, for example, mandatory, and helmet rules, etc. I personally don't see this issue (changing the format) as anything like the rule changes that were implemented to make the sport safer, but I guess one can draw parallels. *shrug* The format change only affects the uppermost tiers, but the other (safety-oriented) rule changes affected the lower-level folks like me.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I am not at all surprised that this sport, like any other sport, is evolving, and doing so under the influence of many outside forces. Up until the '60's women weren't allowed to compete. In the VERY EARLIEST days of the "militaire", the dressage phase (in its rudimentary form) came LAST. Change isn't automatically GOOD, but neither is it automatically BAD. So sayeth this Gemini whose butt is usually firmly planted on the fence! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

Robby Johnson

Aug. 12, 2003, 11:36 AM

Just for fodder ...

From this year's Badminton website:
Winsome Adante, foaled in 1993 and now owned by Linda Wachmeister, is by the SHB(GB) premium Thoroughbred stallion Saunter out of a mare by the Thoroughbred Bohemond..

I don't know if Dan is a full TB - this would lead me to believe he's out of a crossbred mare. If anything we know he's 3/4 TB.

Proof enough for me! Whether it's supported by scientific research or not!

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 11:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
Why not improve a cross-bred mare with a TB stallion? If you know her foal is going to be lighter and more athletic, why would you put her to anything else?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Robby, if you change (in the preceding paragraph) the word "mare" to "stallion" and vice versa and "she/her" to "he/his", would you not agree that the outcome would likely be the same? THAT is my only point with this "blood on top" thing....NOT that the TB is a bad cross for anything! In other words, why not "blood on the bottom"?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I'm not saying the cross is foolproof, just more bankable to me. If you're going to opt for a WB stallion to complement a TB mare, look for one who is himself of some TB breeding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, replace "stallion" with "mare" and "himself" with "herself".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I'm also biased in that most of the crossbred horses I see are by TB stallions. The English horses by Primitive Rising, Saunter, and I've seen a bunch of A Fine Romance babies by different mares (some TB, some not). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And again I'd argue that this phenomenon is more a matter of CONVENTION than a matter of which parent needs to be the TB. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif How many broodmare ads do you see in the breeding issue of Sport Horse magazines, after all?

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

tle

Aug. 12, 2003, 11:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The format change only affects the uppermost tiers, but the other (safety-oriented) rule changes affected the lower-level folks like me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

just keep in mind it's not just the Davidsons and O'Connors that this change could very quickly affect. I don't consider myself an upper level rider at all, but I do love the 3-day format... so much so that when forced to deal with the fact that my mare would not "hold together" to attempt another CCI*, we participated in the Training level 3-day this spring. There really is nothing like competing at a full 3-day... and I know plenty of folks who aspire to do one, even if only at the Training level. Remember... this could quickly spread to ALL our 3-days -- including CCI*s and Young Riders.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Robby Johnson

Aug. 12, 2003, 12:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by deltawave:
And again I'd argue that this phenomenon is more a matter of CONVENTION than a matter of which parent needs to be the TB. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif How many broodmare ads do you see in the breeding issue of Sport Horse magazines, after all?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, let's get outside the box here. Way outside the box.

First off, a stallion can reproduce 300x more each year than a mare. That you don't see broodmare sporthorses offered for sale doesn't mean they don't exist. And it certainly doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. A few years ago embryos were being offered from Kathleen Raines' mare Fidelia (a USET dressage horse) in an ad in the Chronicle. This year in Canada Jay Hayes' grand-prix show-jumping mare Diva was right across the way from us when we went to collect Fred. Her embryos are also harvested and sold. Both of these mares are of extreme quality and I'd dare say you have a MUCH better chance of predicting outcome if you use the mare as the anchor in your breeding scenario.

If you want lighter, breed to a lighter stallion. If you want heavier, go with a heavier stallion. But if you want one who can certainly gallop and go, and have the stamina to stay at the upper levels of three-day eventing, go with a TB! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

subk

Aug. 12, 2003, 12:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by deltawave:
"What you want in a good event horse is a bold, XC machine. The rest is gravy." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The first sentence is still very much appropriate today. I don't think the second was ever meant in much earnestment or accuracy--sterotyping again. Even 25 years ago the top placers HAD to be able to produce decent (in comparison to the other competitors) dressage as well as competent stadium jumping.

What is different today is that having XC and ONLY one other skill won't even get you to the dance hall much less the dance.

KateDB

Aug. 12, 2003, 12:50 PM

I would say that part of the reason the "TB stallion to whatever mare" is also convention. Few people kept a grade horse whole - there was no reason to. There has always been more demand for TB stallions vs. non-TB, even as sporthorse sires (until the WB craze).

In my case, I tried twice to breed a quality and proven event mare (3/4 TB) to full TBs and she never took. Then, she finally caught (coincidentally) to a nearly TB stallion (with Trakener), a proven **** eventer, creating a 1/8 Percheron, 1/2 TB and 3/8 Trak.

I completely think removing A, B and C dumbs down the sport and changes its nature. Does this change horse trials or the lower levels, NO, it doesn't. But it definitely changes things for the upper level and the elite competitor (horse, rider/horseman). I don't necessarily think there will be a huge difference in their schooling, but definitely in their conditioning, which is a VERY big part of the game! Not to mentioning recovering from the endurance phase and being able to then jump SJ the next day.

BTW - I have always understood that the mare actually contributes more than 50% of the 100%!
Perhaps old wives tale.

One thing you can give and still keep is your word.

poltroon

Aug. 12, 2003, 12:57 PM

Here is my pet peeve:

Why is it that if a horse is international caliber, the greatness is attributed to his warmblood heritage when in fact he's 3/4 TB?

Even Cheryll Frank at USA Eq, much as I respect her for her knowledge of bloodlines, talks about the influence of great WB stallions in the pedigree while almost completely glossing over the fact that the horse in question is 3/4 or even 7/8 TB.

Instead of calling them warmbloods, we should insist on calling them TB crosses - which is what they are. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 01:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If you want lighter, breed to a lighter stallion. If you want heavier, go with a heavier stallion. But if you want one who can certainly gallop and go, and have the stamina to stay at the upper levels of three-day eventing, go with a TB! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Robby, I can certainly agree with the above, as long as you'll allow that (once again) substituting "mare" for "stallion" would get you to the same place. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif OMG, does this mean I'm a horse-feminist? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kate, the thing about the mare contributing "50%-plus" might have to do with how her temperament will influence baby (the "absentee father" thing being the norm in the horse-breeding business, LOL!) and people often talk about the influence of "mitochondrial DNA" which is inherited only from mama, but that data is (from what I've seen, hardly a topic I've looked into deeply) not earth-shattering.

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

KateDB

Aug. 12, 2003, 01:06 PM

Understand what you are saying Delta, but definitely refering to genetics vs. environment/nurturing.

One thing you can give and still keep is your word.

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 01:11 PM

Kate, have you heard of the "X Factor" stuff that TB breeders talk about? It has to do with the influence of the broodmare through the X chromosome/mitochondrial DNA. There's a book on it

http://www.horseinfo.com/cart/xfactor.html

http://www.wmo1011.addr.com/x_factor_thoroughbred_racehorse.htm

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

Gry2Yng

Aug. 12, 2003, 01:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> And boy, I sure have a lot of fun at Horse Trials...doubt I'll ever do a 3-day but I don't feel like I'm missing anything, Gry! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(Please read this with my tongue in cheek)

Ahhhh! But you make my point. Just because you don't know what you are missing, doesn't mean you aren't missing something.

(Tongue removed from cheek.) Horse trials are great, the sport is great. If I could never three day again, I would still do ht's. An event rider doesn't have to want to three day to be first rate in my book. But it is easy to freely give up something you have never had and/or never aspire to.

I am a simple adult amateur who has had the good fortune to own and ride a spectacular three day horse. It is a thrill I cannot describe to you. To look at a horse and know that his heart runs even deeper than you have ever imagined is precious. To know that I conditioned him and trained him and taught him to trust you is something to hold dear to my heart when I can only sit on my porch and watch my grandchildren ride. I just hope that they will be able to three day as well.

Just getting to the first jog of a three day tells you something about your horse, but it also tells you something about yourself.

deltawave, you have some lovely horses and can easily go through life enjoying them without ever doing a three day, but the heart that we love so much in our event horses is brought out in the three day. If you ever decide to do it, it will change who you are as a horseman. If you don't, that's okay, but don't casually throw the opportunity away just because you don't know how really great it can be. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Robby Johnson

Aug. 12, 2003, 01:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by deltawave:

Robby, I can certainly agree with the above, as long as you'll allow that (once again) substituting "mare" for "stallion" would get you to the same place. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif OMG, does this mean I'm a horse-feminist? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We must change your name to "deltasteinem!"

I think with stallions, we can see more readily available proof of what they're prepotent for passing along in terms of traits. If, when put to a TB mare, a WB stallion consistently throws a lot of substance but no height, we know within 2-3 breeding seasons that if you want something bigger maybe you need to look for something else.

If your mare has thrown foals that mature 16.2 when bred to ponies or Shires, then you know you have more room in your selection process!

But when you're putting money into the breeding bank, my thoughts on it are to start with a wonderful mare and improve her with a quality TB stallion. If you can get a horse of equal or greater quality by flipping the equation, then that's great too!

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2003, 01:21 PM

Gry, I at least hope to "test the waters" at a Training 3-day next spring with my Brave, Wonderful Gwennie. She's done wonders for my (non-abundant) courage, so who's to say where the right horse could take me? Your point was made very beautifully and poetically...gave me goosebumps, actually! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

Boss Hoss

Aug. 12, 2003, 01:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I don't consider myself an upper level rider at all, but I do love the 3-day format... so much so that when forced to deal with the fact that my mare would not "hold together" to attempt another CCI*, we participated in the Training level 3-day this spring. There really is nothing like competing at a full 3-day... and I know plenty of folks who aspire to do one, even if only at the Training level.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to try and train for the one in the spring (3DE @ T) so that both my horse & I who are green to the format can learn together and have a better idea how to train for our first CCI* in a year or so. The future MIGHT be that the CIC replaces the CCI but I don't want to be stuck saying I never got to try one. Which format survives is beyond my control, but I'll work to develop the right horse for the job that survives.

And I have WB on both TOP & BOTTOM so I guess that makes for a super WB if one improved the other thinking works...ok, I'm done holding my breath on that one.

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

Robby Johnson

Aug. 12, 2003, 02:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
And I have WB on both TOP & BOTTOM so I guess that makes for a super WB if one improved the other thinking works...ok, I'm done holding my breath on that one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean you have TB or WB (or both) on the top and bottom?

Also, tell us about your stallion. How many mares does he normally cover? What are his get doing? I notice he's by a really well-known KWPN stallion and wonder about the mare he's out of.

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

retreadeventer

Aug. 12, 2003, 07:58 PM

Shall we start a "new" breed? The Event Thoroughbred? To help save these horses for useful lives as many are doing right now, and to fight the warmbloods.

Horses will make a fool of you, it's only a matter of when, not if.

BarnBrat

Aug. 12, 2003, 08:12 PM

Coming in a little late here. I totally agree wtih Pgm. That is the best summary of everything that just plain stinks about this change that I have heard. I did a term paper on it and the whole thing really ticked me off.

And this change is 100% dumbing down the sport. I have never done a 3 day, I will one day, hopefully soon. But even if I would never ever even consider doing a 3 day I would still be concerned about this change. Will it effect those who only do the lower levels, probally not. But I still get the heebie-jeebies just thinking about those horses jumping around at the upper levels. They are absolute athletes. Even if we are never going to get there, we have to have something to aspire to, something to look up to. And who wants to aspire and look up to mediocre athletes. Not me.

Mares Rule!

deltawave

Aug. 13, 2003, 05:16 AM

Hollihorse, why do we have to "fight the warmbloods"? Are they some sort of enemy? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Bbrat, if you want to call a **** horse/rider team "mediocre" then you haven't seen ME ride yet! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

My God people, do you all think that this new format is going to open up the top levels to any old slob on a shaggy backyard horse? Look at the qualifications for a *** or ****...think just anybody is out there doing all those Advanced HT's on their "mediocre" horses?

I agree the loss of the CCI format will be a shame (IF THAT HAPPENS) and that the CIC will be a different sort of question, but I hardly think it's a death knell to the sport as a whole, or a descent into "mediocrity". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

RacetrackReject

Aug. 13, 2003, 05:36 AM

deltawave- I think Hollihorse was being a little tongue-in-cheek.

I am dying to know if pgm is going to send in the letter. I thought it was wonderful and dead on. If you think it may get more pull if there are multiple signatures, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be willing to sign it.

I too would like to know more about Manahawk and his get.

deltawave

Aug. 13, 2003, 06:06 AM

Yes, I realize HH may have been joking, but it's so sad to see this "Hatfield vs. McCoy" mentality even in jest...a good event horse is a good event horse. Period.

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

Gry2Yng

Aug. 13, 2003, 06:52 AM

delta and Boss,
I hope you both complete your training three days. I believe it is the key to keeping the CCI format. I am hoping we can get another one on the calendar for the fall. It will be something you never regret, except for the burning desire to do another that will nag at you every fall and spring.

I believe the training level three day is the key to keeping the CCI because I have seen the change in perspective that comes over a rider once they have completed the educational clinic. Rolex goes from being an incredible spectacle to a shared acheivement. No one ever watches road and tracks, but suddenly you have funny stories about what YOUR horse did on phases A and C. The "upper level/lower level" thing isn't as important.

I think each of us IS important in keeping the CCI format alive. We all need to sign letters like pgm's.
Many riders don't want to take on a prelim course, but at training level a three day is acheivable. And it is such an education as well as a bonding experience. It just has to become important to the grass roots of the sport.

I think we can also make a difference by inviting novice and training riders with no ambitions of a three day to help our grooms at CCIs. Walking phases B and D and roads and tracks and jogs gets in their blood too. CCI can't be "upper level" if we want to keep them. It has to mean something to the vast majority, even if they never ride at the FEI level.

Given the way that eventers feel about their horses, and the qualities that we prize, it is only a small step to personalizing the CCI format, because speed and endurance day strips away all of the superficial things and all you are left with is heart and pride. It doesn't even have to be your horse, when they are standing in the ice bucket on Saturday afternoon and they have done their job they are proud, just like a greenie that's done his first novice, but ten times better.

royal militron

Aug. 13, 2003, 09:31 AM

Poltroon wrote:
************************************************
Why is it that if a horse is international caliber, the greatness is attributed to his warmblood heritage when in fact he's 3/4 TB?

Even Cheryll Frank at USA Eq, much as I respect her for her knowledge of bloodlines, talks about the influence of great WB stallions in the pedigree while almost completely glossing over the fact that the horse in question is 3/4 or even 7/8 TB.

Instead of calling them warmbloods, we should insist on calling them TB crosses - which is what they are.
***********************************************

I agree w/you 100% why is this??

deltawave

Aug. 13, 2003, 10:08 AM

Seems to me this might be a USA thing...in England they usually call a horse "7/8 bred" or whatnot...the 1/8th usually being undefined!

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

LisaB

Aug. 13, 2003, 10:23 AM

I got one better than the wb stigma when they are mostly tb(oh yeah, look at Rembrandt, all TB I hear), how about draft cross? I tell people my new horse is a draft cross because we are pretty darn sure he's got Percheron in him. Dunno the rest of it. They keep telling me to call him a TB cross. Well, I don't know if he's got TB in him. Can I call him the original WB (mutt!)?

deltawave

Aug. 13, 2003, 10:34 AM

Yup, Lisa...it's the same with the Irish Draught people. Some of them insist that you have to call an ID cross an Irish DRAUGHT Sport Horse", while some folks shy away from the "D-word" because people hear "draft" (or "draught") and think CLYDESDALE. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I personally find "Irish Draught Sport Horse" to be too d*mn LONG to use, so I call my filly (among other things) an "Irish Sport Horse", "Irish cross", "Irish Draught cross", "TB cross", or "Irish Thoroughbred cross". The latter is doubly confusing since "Irish Thoroughbred" is another term used to describe just about anything! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif One thing I DON'T call her, though, is an "Irish Warmblood"...there are only so many things you can call one poor little chubby filly, after all! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

TKR

Aug. 13, 2003, 11:58 AM

After reading the article, I just think it gives a better opportunity for those of us who breed Thoroughbreds for the sport disciplines. The Thoroughbreds that are chosen as bloodstock by knowledgable and discriminating breeders should have more respect and command a better price as do their wb counterparts. Going to the track and buying anything available and coping with the problems (not that I want buying OTTB's to ever stop), might not be as attractive. Learning about proven sporthorse lineage in Thoroughbreds and looking for prospects bred for sport with the temperment, conformation and movement is an advantage!
PSG

Hephaistion

Aug. 13, 2003, 01:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by royal militron:
Rembrandt was a full TB?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. He was a Westphalian by Romandour II and out of a mare by the TB Angelo I think. Will have to double check the dam line - there was a lot of TB, but he was not definitely NOT one.

"Toss me... Don't tell the elf."-Gimli

Boss Hoss

Aug. 13, 2003, 03:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Also, tell us about your stallion. How many mares does he normally cover? What are his get doing? I notice he's by a really well-known KWPN stallion and wonder about the mare he's out of.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There you go again Robby, getting all personal-you have no respect for privacy do you?...how is this germain to the topic? If I respond it will be deleted per the advertising rule. I'm not offering comments on my stallion for you to slander upon. You seem to know more about my personal life than I do..so why ask?

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

Boss Hoss

Aug. 13, 2003, 04:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Rembrandt was a full TB?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well yes just look here...
http://www.pedigreequery.com/allbreed/

Rembrandt's Sire & Dam were both Westphalens..its the Dam's-Sire "Angelo" who was a TB and on TOP.

And it appears the talent came from the DAM (Adone) who's father was a TB as stated above. So we ended up with a better warmblood by bringing in the TB blood? That's why the TB will not go away in the equation for a CIC event prospect. Take the heavier WB and lighten them, and quicken them, and agile them with some TB blood...no matter who's on TOP or BOT.

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

Robby Johnson

Aug. 13, 2003, 06:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Also, tell us about your stallion. How many mares does he normally cover? What are his get doing? I notice he's by a really well-known KWPN stallion and wonder about the mare he's out of.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There you go again Robby, getting all personal-you have no respect for privacy do you?...how is this germain to the topic? If I respond it will be deleted per the advertising rule. I'm not offering comments on my stallion for you to slander upon. You seem to know more about my personal life than I do..so why ask?

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : http://www.coolbreezefarm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't be so paranoid. It was a legitimate question, based out of legitimate interest and curiosity. Feel free to private topic me a response.

I have zero intentions of slandering your stallion. Just wanted to know if your quickness to dismiss the "blood on top" approach is based on experience or bias.

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

Erin

Aug. 13, 2003, 07:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

There you go again Robby, getting all personal-you have no respect for privacy do you?...how is this germain to the topic? If I respond it will be deleted per the advertising rule.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it won't.

From our advertising policy, to which I've referred you before:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Advertising on the Sport Horse Breeding forum is slightly trickier to define, and has been the subject of much discussion. But, in general, if the moderators feel that you are promoting your stallion or your breeding program, you will be asked to refrain from doing so and those posts might be deleted.

You are permitted to mention your stallion in response to direct questions from other members (if someone is looking for suggestions of stallions to breed to, for instance), although we ask that you use private email to discuss specifics, like stud fee. You’re also welcome to share news about your stallion’s achievements. But if such posts become excessive, or if the moderator feels that they're thinly-veiled advertisements, you’ll be asked to refrain from making such posts, and those posts might be deleted.

Remember—the forum is for discussion; not self-promotion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boss Hoss

Aug. 13, 2003, 07:56 PM

Robby..you have gone to the privacy well too many times for me in discussions where you want to butt heads with me in a topic. Stay on the issues of the topic...and out of my private life.

I believe the "blood on top" is an old wive's tale..and I can use my grandfather's appaloosa breeding experience alone to prove that one. I've seen "blood on top" of appaloosas and you still get an ugly rat tailed app out of it. So much for improving the mare.

The offspring have characteristics of the parents, some combinations have predictable traits of one parent over the other. However to paint with such a wide brush as to say "blood on top" is very unscientific statement to say the least.

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

rusti

Aug. 13, 2003, 08:01 PM

Wow Boss Hoss, that was a bit harsh wouldn't you say?
Having read Robby's posts for quite a while now, i know he's a die hard TB fan. In fact you'll find most eventers are. But owning one of those dreaded warmbloods I can say that no one here has ever said a mean thing about him.
We all love our horses and I think everyone here respects that and we do not say mean, hurtful things about each others horses. Anyway, I don't think anyone here would "slander" your boy. He's very nice BTW and I would love to hear what your doing with him as well. warmblood folks are a minority here and its nice to hear what others are able to do.
I think the TB vs warmblood thing has been beaten to death. Even though I own a warmblood stallion that I chose have campaigned as an eventer there is no doubt in my mind that the TB or predominantly TB horse is what's needed for the upper levels. But I do get a little annoyed when I read post after post saying the TB is the only horse with heart and courage, that's just bulls...t Winston's a fluke. Yeah, he's got scope and is athletic as can be but a big heavy thing like him shouldn't be able to gallop and jump all day. He does it because he has a huge work ethic, heart, and loves the sport and its obvious to anyone who see's him work. Whatever the breed, if it can do the job than its the right one for the job.
Do I think warmblood stallions have something to offer to the event world, without a doubt. Take a good hard look at our mare base. Most are not AFR or Innkeeper most are tiny boned, downhill little sprinters. Those mare's need more power, more bone, more movement. And now that I'm a bit older, don't bounce quite as good as I used to, and I'm nowhere near as brave a bit of that tolerant warmblood temperment isn't such a bad thing. Adding a warmblood to that mix is a very good thing. I agree that the blood has to be somewhere to have any hope of being competitive at the upper levels CIC or CCI, but top or bottom depends on what you have to start with.

Boss Hoss

Aug. 13, 2003, 08:05 PM

Erin..you clearly do not think I'm going to entertain such a redirection of conversation do you? This is NOT a topic about his and her personal stallions but about breeds/breeding for CIC vs CCI format. My stallions specifications are not germain to this topic. He's currently just another joe in eventing..and he'd liked to be left out of the discussion.

However I'll join several others in exit since personal attacks are permitted here.

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

farmboy

Aug. 13, 2003, 09:44 PM

Boss Hoss,

I hope that you just mean to exit the thread and don't intend to quit this BB entirely. You have too much to contribute. Need posters like you.

Celtic Witch

Aug. 13, 2003, 09:55 PM

I am with Robby and Rusti on this one.

Blood on top is clearly proven through the 3/4th and 7/8th bred superstar thoroughbreds being produced in England (many of whom later breed themselves) and the success of stallions such as Ladykiller in lightening and quickening the Continental warmbloods.

I am far more likely to go with the experiences of those with generations of breeding behind them rather than a first time stallion owner such as myself.

I myself stand a super Dutch stallion (damsire is the phenomenal French Anglo-Arabian Nurzeus) who did brilliantly last year at Burghley Young Event Horse qualifiers. He made it into the final all but one time and each time, was at the top of the pack. However, each and every time he was placed closer to the middle of the top ten during the final hack. This offended me at first, but after speaking with a few of the judges, I realised they were right. At 17.2hh, he is not the ideal eventer type. Yes, many of the top 4* horses stand 17 or over, but they are hardly the majority nor are they ideal for courses built to accomodate catty 16.2hh horses.

They all said they felt Monty is ideal for crossing with typical downhill, small, light TB mares bred for flat racing to improve the conformation and movement (which he has proven himself to do, as well as passing on his level headed temperament). So, sometimes blood on bottom is okay too. It simply depends on whether you are trying to improve a thoroughbred mare or a warmblood mare.

Like Rusti with Winston, I feel this makes Monty ideal for the mare base in the States as most are not ideal sporthorse types and need improvement to produce them. These are improvements that well-bred Warmbloods are prepotent for, having been bred for them for generations.

Back on topic, this discussion has been beat to death. Yes, it is very sad and sucks rather seriously. However, it is hardly going to bring about the death of the TB or TBx eventer. The racetrack provides far too many decently priced prospects for them to be ignored as a source for future eventers and too many people love the breed too much to jump on the Warmblood wagon.

Susie

Royal Oak Sporthorses (http://)

Robby Johnson

Aug. 14, 2003, 03:33 AM

Suzy - your link didn't work for me! Waaaah!!! I really want to see your Monty's pic. (Try not to worry, though, sometimes my AOL at home is very particular about where it will let me go!)

Rusti - For eventing I am a die-hard TB but not entirely and I think it always comes down to the individual. Would I jump at the chance to sit on your Winston? Absolutely!!! With relish!

Mark - I am really sorry you have taken this so personally. Your private life really isn't interesting to me. But your horse is!

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

RacetrackReject

Aug. 14, 2003, 04:00 AM

Mark, I am truly sorry if you feel that this topic became too personal. It certainly was not intended that way. I would like to hear from you about Manahawk though, just like I want to hear from Rusti and Celtic Witch about their WB stallions. Because you guys are the ones breeding WB stallions, you can give us a better clue as to what sort of horses your clients are wanting to breed for what sports, and if you see changes in the trend. We almost have our own little research group here. Now we need a few people with TB stallions to join in.
Let's just please try and keep the conversation civil and non-personal. We are interested in the horses, not you (non-specific you).

LisaB

Aug. 14, 2003, 04:05 AM

Hey Rusti! Must be something with the Winston's. I named my fluke Amish cart horse Winston. He looked like a Winston. No, not a fat British drunk. He's a total anamoly. The more I do with him, the more I realize how much he has under the hood.
I think what we are dwindling down here is that we can no longer take the little downhill sprinter type TB and make an eventer out of them. We can try to breed to a wb and then get a more substantial uphill cross bred. Or, we find the really nice looking OTTB and both can possibly make it to the upper levels. The speed and endurance can be a hinderance to the crossbred. The moves and rideability can be a hinderance to the OTTB.

canterlope

Aug. 14, 2003, 05:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I believe the "blood on top" is an old wive's tale.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm coming in late to this discussion and apologize if this has been mentioned in prior posts, but I have a hard time believing that a multi-billion dollar industry like the Thoroughbred Racing business would base its standard breeding practices on an old wive's tale. To be sure, there will always be exceptions to the rule and I have no doubt that any one of us can produce examples of where the "blood on the bottom" was the key factor in passing on optimal traits to the resulting offspring. However, if I had to bet one way or the other, I would place my money on "blood on the top" which has been proven to be the optimal method of improving breeds like the Thoroughbred.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They say cats have nine lives. They would settle for one good one. Adopt a cat (or dog) today.

Erin

Aug. 14, 2003, 06:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
Erin..you clearly do not think I'm going to entertain such a redirection of conversation do you? This is NOT a topic about his and her personal stallions but about breeds/breeding for CIC vs CCI format. My stallions specifications are not germain to this topic. He's currently just another joe in eventing..and he'd liked to be left out of the discussion.

However I'll join several others in exit since personal attacks are permitted here.

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : http://www.coolbreezefarm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mark, your stallion's name is on every post you make. You've mentioned him several times in this thread as (it seemed to me) an example of good breeding for eventing. Yet you bite Robby's head off when he asks you for more information???

Most people would jump at the change to say laudatory things about their stallions when asked... especially since it is the loophole in our no-advertising policy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

deltawave

Aug. 14, 2003, 07:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by canterlope:
I would place my money on "blood on the top" which has been proven to be the optimal method of improving breeds like the Thoroughbred.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But DC, how can you put MORE blood "on top" of a horse that's already full-blood (TB)? "Blood on top" the way I've been defining it is putting a full-blooded stallion to a non-full-blooded mare in the hopes of "improving" the mare. My only argument all along has been that according to the laws of genetics the SAME RESULT could probably be obtained by putting a full-blood MARE to a non-full-blood STALLION. I am NOT arguing that the TB doesn't "improve" or lighten heavier breeds, just wondering why people automatically assume it's better if DADDY is the TB. ???

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

Boss Hoss

Aug. 14, 2003, 07:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>You've mentioned him several times in this thread as (it seemed to me) an example of good breeding for eventing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely untrue..I've supported the WB-TB crossing for the CIC format..which is the topic of discussion. I have specifically not said a word about anyone's stallion even my own in this discussion as being a good example. I remain discrete in these conversations..

I'm allowed a signature right? That's all it is, he's my event mount and proud of it. But I'm not interested in a dissection online.

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

tle

Aug. 14, 2003, 07:54 AM

Fine, then that's all you had to say. Your stallion your business. Or you could have PT'd the appropriate PEOPLE (as I read Robby isnt' the only one who asked for more info) and let htem know whatever. But geez... talk about getting publicly defensive and rude. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Janeway

Aug. 14, 2003, 09:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by deltawave:
My only argument all along has been that according to the laws of genetics the SAME RESULT could probably be obtained by putting a full-blood MARE to a non-full-blood STALLION. I am NOT arguing that the TB doesn't "improve" or lighten heavier breeds, just wondering why people automatically assume it's better if DADDY is the TB. ??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You and I are on the same wavelength Delta! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

No one here ever hinted at the fact that the TB was not an essential part of the equation, rather you and I and others just wondered why the TB has to be on top!

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

Janet

Aug. 14, 2003, 10:13 AM

canterlope,

I am a little bit confused. I understand what "blood on top" means when you are breeding TBs to non or part TBs: it means a registered TB sire, and a non TB dam.

But what does "blood on top" mean when you are breeding TB to TB?

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Oliver

Aug. 14, 2003, 10:24 AM

With regard to questions about the progeny of various stallions.....some of that information can be found by searching the various registrys......
Breeding statistics can provide useful information to prospective purchasers of sport horses.........

canterlope

Aug. 14, 2003, 10:32 AM

In TB racing, "blood on top" would be taken to mean that the sire has a stronger pedigree than the dam. This is the preferable mating and because the TB industry embraces the belief that a great sire line is more influencial than a great mare line, if I had a good mare and breed it to a great stallion, the resulting offspring would be more marketable than if I had a great mare and took it to a good stallion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They say cats have nine lives. They would settle for one good one. Adopt a cat (or dog) today.

Janet

Aug. 14, 2003, 10:33 AM

When breeding TB to non TB for eventing in particular, I think I actually see a slight advantage to using a TB dam and a non-TB sire.

IF (and it may be a big if) we assume the the X-factor (large heart) is more prevalent in TBs than non TBs, and ignoring the specific breeding of the individual, you have a greater chance of producing a "large heart" offspring with a TB mare and a non-TB stallion.

If you breed "blood on top" (TB sire, non TB dam) and produce a colt, the colt inherits the "X" from the non-TB dam, and is therefore significantly less likely to have a large heart.

If you breed "blood on the bottom" (non-TB sire, TB dam) and produce a colt, the colt will get the "X" from the TB dam, and is therefore significantly more likely to have a large heart.

I think the focus on colts is relevant, because most upper level event horses are male.

But even if we look at fillies, "blood on the bottom" looks better for the X factor.

If you breed "blood on top" (TB sire, non TB dam) and produce a filly, the filly inherits one "X" from the non-TB dam, and one from the TB sire. So the probability (P) that the filly has a large heart is the same as the probability that an arbitrary TB X has the large heart factor, and is the same as the probability that the sire had a large heart.

If you breed "blood on the bottom" (non-TB sire, TB dam) and produce a filly, the filly inherits one "X" from the TB dam, and one from the non-TB sire. The probability that the filly gets an X with the large heart factor is (2P - Psquared) because she has two chances to inherit it from he dam, compared to only one from the sire.

There may be other, equally important factors which point the other way, but I am not aware of them.

If I were breeding TB x nonTB specifically for eventers, I'd get myself a stable full of broodmares that were known to have at least one copy of the "X factor" (as well as all the other selection criteria).

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Janet

Aug. 14, 2003, 10:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by canterlope:
In TB racing, "blood on top" would be taken to mean that the sire has a stronger pedigree than the dam. This is the preferable mating and because the TB industry embraces the belief that a great sire line is more influencial than a great mare line, if I had a good mare and breed it to a great stallion, the resulting offspring would be more marketable than if I had a great mare and took it to a good stallion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the clarification. I think it is interesting that you used the word "more marketable", rather than "better performer".

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Celtic Witch

Aug. 14, 2003, 11:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
Suzy - your link didn't work for me! Waaaah!!! I really want to see your Monty's pic. (Try not to worry, though, sometimes my AOL at home is very particular about where it will let me go!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It never works from here! But it is up and running:
http://www.geocities.com/royaloaksporthorses/rendement.html

It has no photos from this year, though. Monty spent the season in England and the trainer sends me videos rather than photos. And I have zero idea of how to get those online.

As far as Monty goes, he has been put mainly to English and Irish Thoroughbreds with less than ideal sporthorse conformation. The desired result for all of them was an all-rounder for adult amateurs (though one is hoping for a European Young Riders jumper and another breeds only for Grand Prix jumper prospects). Each foal has been a vast improvement upon the mares: uphill conformation, stronger toplines, more height, super elastic movement, and killer sweet temperaments. Monty adores people as do all of his foals, several of whom are out of hideously bad tempered mares!

His first foal (out of a bad moving, ill tempered Irish mare) went to a County show in Cumbria and was champion on the line at 1 month.

This season saw his first covering of European Warmblood and pony mares. The desired results have been mainly dressage and hunters, though a few were eager to get his jumper lines and one intends to event hers. I can not wait to see the foals next year.

Susie

Celtic Witch

Aug. 14, 2003, 11:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
Absolutely untrue..I've supported the WB-TB crossing for the CIC format..which is the topic of discussion. I have specifically not said a word about anyone's stallion even my own in this discussion as being a good example. I remain discrete in these conversations..

I'm allowed a signature right? That's all it is, he's my event mount and proud of it. But I'm not interested in a dissection online.

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : http://www.coolbreezefarm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Surely, if someone wants to know more about your stallion, that's a good thing? I'll talk about Monty all day if given the chance. Afterall, as a stallion owner offering a service, it kinda is your job.

Your defensiveness leads one to believe that perhaps there is something being hidden. Far better to brag away if offered the chance!

Personally, I offered my stallion up for dissection by several top producers in Holland; how else am I going to learn? And I'd much rather people ask about anything that might worry them rather than just gossip because I will not hear a conversation regarding him. Its all part of the job.

JMO
Susie

Robby Johnson

Aug. 14, 2003, 12:04 PM

Susie -

Your guy is adorable! I love his big kind expression - but I couldn't get the video to download!

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

NMS

Aug. 14, 2003, 12:11 PM

Janet, I have the horse you describe. He is from a X factor mare, by a Holsteiner. I have no way of knowing if he has the larger heart (short of ultrasound for curiosity) but can tell you that I've never had time faults. My choice to purchase this horse had nothing to do with how he was bred...I bought him soley on this horse's quality of walk and canter gaits (he was 2). Secondly, I looked at the dam's conformation, his sibling's race results, and finally the quality of the sire (which I saw, in person, shown on the line) as his get was not of age to judge results at that time. I was not breed predjudiced, just looking for the best horse for the limited funds I had.

I will always look for the best event horse I can find for the funds I have. My best horse was a TB that came from Oklahoma by a truck.

But I digress, my two cents worth is that we must all voice our opinions whether in writing or by attending the Annual Meeting to let those "in charge" realize how important the full three day is to eventing in this country, and to ensure that it remains as a qualification for the Olympic games and other high profile events.

Maybe we can set up a site with some way to sign a petition or something? Anyone have any ideas?

nanc

www.canterohio.org (http://www.canterohio.org)

Janet

Aug. 14, 2003, 12:25 PM

Me too. Belle is out of an "X-factor" TB mare, by a Connemara stallion. She was tested as part of the Connemara phase of the X-factor study, but I haven't got the results back yet.

I didn't even know about the X-factor when I bought her.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

RacetrackReject

Aug. 14, 2003, 12:29 PM

Celtic Witch- Monty is gorgeous! He's not what I was expecting to see. I thought he would be much heavier, but I like that he's not, or doesn't appear to be. Very nice boy!!

Thanks for sharing information about him as well.

Robby Johnson

Aug. 14, 2003, 12:37 PM

NMS - Can't wait to see you in Boston!

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

NMS

Aug. 14, 2003, 12:47 PM

I think we should have a BB party!!! I know some good Irish pubs!!

Nanc

www.canterohio.org (http://www.canterohio.org)

moose

Aug. 14, 2003, 01:06 PM

Janet, can they test for the x-factor? How?

Celtic Witch

Aug. 14, 2003, 01:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:

Susie -

Your guy is adorable! I love his big kind expression - but I couldn't get the video to download!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you. He's just a big dope who would live in the house if allowed and likes to beg peppermints. If his morning feeds are late, he chucks his bucket and haynet (which he has learned to untie, no matter how its done up) out the door at you. His temperament is my absolute favourite thing about him.

I'm working on the video... it was linked to our old UK website which is down due to my not updating it for more than six months. Need to reactivate it as its the only place I currently have the clip. Not that its impressive; my head girl (also my sister) was learning to run horses up in hand using Monty, who was more interested in grabbing hold of her jumper's hood. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by texasgirl29:

Celtic Witch- Monty is gorgeous! He's not what I was expecting to see. I thought he would be much heavier, but I like that he's not, or doesn't appear to be. Very nice boy!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you. We're quite proud, though the photos need updating. He's a tall boy at 17hh+, but he's not heavy. He's incredibly light on his feet, like a ballet dancer.

I just got a super, super TB mare in to train and sell, but methinks I might buy her to breed to Monty next spring. I can just see the result being an eventer extraordinaire!

Susie

Janet

Aug. 14, 2003, 01:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Moose:
Janet, can they test for the x-factor? How?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As I understand it, they use ultrasound to determine the size of the heart. I don't think there is a direct genetic test yet, but I could be wrong.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Boss Hoss

Aug. 14, 2003, 02:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Your defensiveness leads one to believe that perhaps there is something being hidden. Far better to brag away if offered the chance!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is nothing to hide..we have only as of last year entered him into the gene pool..so there is no get to speak of. Robby could tell that from our website..so why ask other than to embarrass? Or to say I'm not qualified to have a position in this debate? Regardless it is irrelevant as to my position in this debate. I am however fed up with a few certain posters questioning my personal and now professional life whenever discussing dressage or breeding in eventing.

For the sake of apperances (nothing to hide) Manahawk will be 10 in the spring, however we felt responsible enough NOT to breed him until his performance was adequate. And I would love to talk about his winning 7 of 9 horse trials this season..being both qualified for Area & ECC at two levels..and if not for his rider's mistake he'd be 9 of 9! if not for the rain this spring who knows..possibly HoY. However I've been flammed in the past for even being happy about this super year he's having...probably down played because he's a WB, considered an amateur's horse, not really an event horse..lada/lada/lada. I'd love to talk about him jumping that huge trahkener at Morven yesterday, or that he's he starting to school prelim questions and his speed is increasing on course (almost having to circle at Training level).

Considering he's packing around an inexperienced rider at the same level and was entered into the sport at 8 and has not had anyone other than myself or my wife school him over fences..I think he's showing some pretty damn good heart and athleticism for a WB.

He's like some of you, he really hates dressage..even if he's good at it.

Now..can I return to discretion from here and talk about issues not people? And leave him in his stall to rest for his hopefully big 2nd half of the season?

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

Robby Johnson

Aug. 14, 2003, 02:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
Robby could tell that from our website..so why ask other than to embarrass? Or to say I'm not qualified to have a position in this debate?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are really making a huge fuss out of this. You have never revealed anything about your stallion and I just find it intriguing. He is by a super-famous horse, as you say is certainly packing your bacon around ... I'd brag on him all day if he were mine.

Did it ever occur to you that you could've persuaded the way I think about things? That a cordial response might've influenced others as well? No. You just popped off like a hothead with no rationalization behind the text whatsoever. I have never sought to expose you as a know-nothing, I just wanted to know about your horse.

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

deltawave

Aug. 14, 2003, 02:12 PM

Mark, go ahead and toot that horn...sounds like you're indeed having a great season. When I hear stallion owners reluctant to "talk up" their horses I'm reminded of one particularly nutty stallion owner who managed to alienate an entire breed society in spite of having a terrific horse. People *expect* pride, not defensiveness or reluctance. Us potential breeders TRY to look at "just the stallion" but I can tell you from personal experience it's very easy to be put off by a stallion owner who seems anything but happy to talk about their "guy". Just my $0.02 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

TKR

Aug. 14, 2003, 02:36 PM

Regarding the earlier comment about the TB racing industry valuing a great stallion over a great mare -- not true! If you ever look at a sale catalog or watch the results, you'll see that the emphasis and value is placed on the mare's "black type" moreso than the stallion. The entire catalog page is a history and lineage of the mare. The stallion is only mentioned in a paragraph at the top (and at the bottom, if the mare is in foal). A "blue hen" mare (multiple producer of stakes quality foals) is very exalted and traditionally held in the highest regard. The top stallions' foals will bring top $'s but you will see a huge difference when the mare shows a pedigree of stakes producers and she herself is a stakes producer. I think the racing community has found value in the mare's contribution much moreso than the sport industry to this point.

Boss Hoss

Aug. 14, 2003, 02:47 PM

I do not feel comfortable putting it out there on a forum like this for dissection. I've had my wife, my past event results, and how can I ride and post drug into conversations which I did not provide for public conversation. Robby you yourself have made snide comments like "remember he's riding the answer" .. referencing a conversation some time ago dealing with WB-TB crosses. Or how "we know the real reason" that I started a topic about dressage and eventing. And you expect me to accept this "I was just asking" attitude as sincere? Sorry call me head shy ..there's a reason. And it involves one or two other posters as well.

As a single stallion owner outside the "system" you are already alienated. Try going into the big breeder's facility for a kuring and watch as big breeders offspring get top premiums, even though you have offsrping of the same stallion and same quality mare. Then have a conversation with big breed handler about how it doesn't make sense of the placing. And then have one breed registry (mare's side) say your colt's sire's pedigree (to whom you referenced) isn't acceptable for them..WHAT!?

So defensiveness comes with the territory on this forum. And there is already a wall about WBs in eventing ..so I don't need to hear anymore dissection about my stallion. He's out there doing it..and hopefully we'll make it to a CIC* or CCI* before he is too old.

So in the top or bot debate .. he may be a consideration for breeding to a good quality TB mare, preferably one that is eventing, for your CIC horse of the future. However I'm not going any further in the defense of that statement for fear of flaming. Insert Big Name WB here is the WB for consideration on the TOP. Amazingly enough the most interest came from foxhunters..because of his disposition and being able to gallop in a herd and be a gentlemen.

In my next life I will be born of great facilities and horsemanship history and not be holding my stallion back in competition. However we have no desire to give up our bond with our guy just so big name trainer can have all the fun riding him, and we pay $$$$$ for it.

He has more heart than even his show record indicates..he'd jump the moon if I would only stop jumping ahead of him sometimes.

now can we move past this?

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk : CBF (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com)

TKR

Aug. 14, 2003, 02:49 PM

First of all, I don't think the "majority" of the racing Thoroughbreds (or other Thoroughbreds) are "downhill". That sweeping generalization is no more true than saying all warmbloods are top dressage horses. In addition, the "buzz" word we've all heard for so long regarding the circumference or amount of bone in the legs is also an idiotic notion that should be debunked. The amount of bone should be sufficient to support the mass. Furthermore, the quality and the integrity of the bone is important, not the size. A heavy (large) bone can be very porous, thus be more inclined to breakdown than the solid, dense and lighter bone, which has been bred in the Thoroughbred for many years. If you wish to truly evaluate the horse's structure, look at the overall proportions and have the bones scanned for density. Measuring the amount of bone is sheer malarky. A heavier horse with heavier bones just hits the ground harder and the concussion is increased, so the outcome is not necessarily positive.
PSG

Celtic Witch

Aug. 14, 2003, 04:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TKR:
First of all, I don't think the "majority" of the racing Thoroughbreds (or other Thoroughbreds) are "downhill". That sweeping generalization is no more true than saying all warmbloods are top dressage horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, my neighbour breeds for the track and has a good 75 or so horses come through after their career is over. More than 50% of them have level to downhill toplines. More than 50% of them are under 16hh and closer to 15hh. More than 50% of them are very narrow and light (which no one here said affects their soundness, only the number of riders they would be suitable for). These are resold for around $1500 into mainly local level sporthorses careers.

Those who are 15.3hh+ with uphill, substantial conformation go for $7,500 into mainly more national level (affiliated competition) sporthorse careers.

When I was buying in off the flat track in England, I saw the same exact numbers. The only difference is that the later were generally sold into amateur racing homes, changed careers to the hurdles, or went for well more than I could afford to invest in a resale.

Perhaps the horses I look at are all freaks? But I don't know, the bloodlines we get are a lot of fairly common, respected racing lines.

Susie

poltroon

Aug. 14, 2003, 05:17 PM

Level to downhill is an advantage for a racehorse, according to Dr. Deb Bennett.

poltroon

Aug. 14, 2003, 05:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jair:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by royal militron:
Rembrandt was a full TB?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. He was a Westphalian by Romandour II and out of a mare by the TB Angelo I think. Will have to double check the dam line - there was a lot of TB, but he was not definitely NOT one.

_"Toss me... Don't tell the elf."-Gimli_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reiner Klimke's Ahlerich was also by the TB stallion Angelo.

You can call him a Westfalen if you want, but I'm going to say, "TB cross!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I think Steffan Peters' Grandeur is American bred out of a TB mare by a WB sire.

Celtic Witch

Aug. 14, 2003, 07:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
Level to downhill is an advantage for a racehorse, according to Dr. Deb Bennett.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. My neighbour wants this. But its definitely less than ideal in a sport horse!

Susie

Janet

Aug. 14, 2003, 08:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> A heavy
(large) bone can be very porous, thus be more inclined to breakdown than the solid, dense
and lighter bone, which has been bred in the Thoroughbred for many years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This was the accepted wisdom for many, many generations. However, I remember reading (sorry, can't cite the source) abouta recent university study in which they measured the densiity of the cannon bones from various breeds, and the TBs were no more dense thatn the other breeds.

However, another important thing to remember is that when you measure the circumferance of the leg, you are measuring both bone and tendon. How far the tendon is set back from the cannon bone affects the measurement, without affecting the amount of bone

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

canterlope

Aug. 15, 2003, 12:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TKR:
Regarding the earlier comment about the TB racing industry valuing a great stallion over a great mare -- not true! If you ever look at a sale catalog or watch the results, you'll see that the emphasis and value is placed on the mare's "black type" moreso than the stallion. The entire catalog page is a history and lineage of the mare. The stallion is only mentioned in a paragraph at the top (and at the bottom, if the mare is in foal). A "blue hen" mare (multiple producer of stakes quality foals) is very exalted and traditionally held in the highest regard. The top stallions' foals will bring top $'s but you will see a huge difference when the mare shows a pedigree of stakes producers and she herself is a stakes producer. I think the racing community has found value in the mare's contribution much moreso than the sport industry to this point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>TKR, you may be right, but I don't believe I am wrong. It is absolutely true that the progeny of a "blue hen" will be held in higher regards than a mare who progeny has not produced the same results on the track. However, if you have two offspring of that "blue hen", one by a stallion like Mr. P or Storm Cat and one by a stallion who has not acheived results in the breeding shed like the stallions mentioned above, the first baby is the one that is going to turn heads.

And, yes, it is true that the sales catalogue pages trace the mare lines and not the stallion lines, but it is not because more emphasis is placed on the attributes of the mare line. It is done for three main reasons. First, it would be impossible to included more than one generation of offspring on a sales page if the stallion line were traced. The average TB mare produces one foal a year. On the other hand, the average TB stallion sires upwards of a hundred or more foals a year. Following the sire lines would produce a sales catalogue that you would need a hand cart just to carry.

Second, information about the stallion is much more readily available than information about the mare. I can go to the annual stallion books produced by the Blood Horse or the Thoroughbred Times and look up any information I need to know about the stallion. I can't do this with the mare. The sales catalogue is the only place I am going to find a summary of the mare's offspring.

And third, in the Thoroughbred industry, offspring of the stallion are not considered to be siblings, only offspring of the mare are. In other words, a filly and a colt by the same sire and out of different dams would not be called brother and sister, but a filly and colt by the same or different sires and out of the same dam would. So, if I want to see how the half brother or full sister of a particular horse has performed, I would do that by tracing the mare line.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They say cats have nine lives. They would settle for one good one. Adopt a cat (or dog) today.

JER

Aug. 15, 2003, 03:06 AM

Grandeur is by a TB stallion.

I bred my OTTB mare to a TBx (5/8 TB, remainder is RID and Dutch). The resulting filly is a 13/16 TB.

She lives out with 4 TBs bred for racing. Much to my chagrin, the farm managers insist on calling her a 'warmblood'. I keep telling them she's 'almost all TB', but they're not buying it, even though she out-gallops the TBs.

When she starts competing, my filly will be listed as a TBx. It's not just a personal preference, it's a more honest assessment of her breeding.

Forego

Aug. 15, 2003, 06:38 AM

Yes Granduer is by an Americanbred TB that was imported to Holland to be used as a breeding Stallion.

Gry2Yng

Aug. 15, 2003, 06:46 AM

What is the name of Granduer's sire?

arnika

Aug. 15, 2003, 09:10 AM

His sire's name is John U To Berry, his dam is Cisca(Dutch Warmblood). Bred by G.J. Aufgerhaar.

Gry2Yng

Aug. 15, 2003, 04:47 PM

MERCY! That is terrible (John U to Berry).

arnika

Aug. 16, 2003, 04:57 AM

Gry2Yng, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

That's exactly what I thought! I actually did a google search and found the info on the usdf HOY listings for 2002 in Grand Prix.

retreadeventer

Aug. 16, 2003, 11:13 AM

May I say that I have been up close and personal with Boss Hoss' hoss -- and he is magnificently talented -- and I have 35 years in this business. He has wonderful temperament, a beautiful mover goes without saying, plenty of bone and athletic conformation; clever jumper. And Mark is a wonderful rider and knowledgeable horseman. He is right about the small breeder thing. Until it's happened to you, you don't understand how politics can kick the pins out from underneath you. By the way, Boss Hoss, what is your next event? (After the dressage show of course.)

Horses will make a fool of you, it's only a matter of when, not if.

Fred

Aug. 17, 2003, 06:53 PM

ver well said pgm. "how very Aryan" - made me laugh!
as someone who breeds Thoroughbreds as Performance Horses, I too saw this as a huge 'marketing' move by the European cartel...
but I don't think we have to ever worry about the Thoroughbred disappearing from eventing, especially at the highest levels. I do think that part of the 'problem' is due to changes in the racing industry, and it is not a problem with the Thoroughbred as a sport horse. When I was 'young' (how many centuries ago was that??) it was easy to get a young sound horse off the track for cheap. It is still easy to get them for cheap, but many of them will have had their soundness compromised by racing, and often these talented, brilliant horses will not be able to stand up to the rigours of high level eventing. If they had not raced they would have been champions. I am making a general statement here, I do know that many off track TBs go on to great careers in eventing... and I am very glad of it.
But, the young WBs did not get broke as yearlings, and they were not running their guts out and legs off as two year olds either...
Many,no make that SOME of us are breeding Thoroughbreds, and mostly TBs (and I consider a 7/8 TB to be a TB) - after all a 3/4 TB can still be a Holsteiner or Trakehner! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - as Sport Horses - sound, fast, athletic horses with the movement for dressage, the speed, courage and athleticsm for all the rest... and those horses will always be at the top of this sport.
Keep the faith, breed, buy and ride Thoroughbreds!
www.afineromance.ca (http://www.afineromance.ca)