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BeastieSlave
Oct. 31, 2003, 06:48 AM
O.K. I need a bit of support and some positive stories would help too.

I just got off the phone with trainer who is starting my new baby. He wants to send her home. This is the baby who is 3 y.o. and 17hh and won't tie. He's been trying to quietly get the tieing thing taken care of (inner tubes, etc.) with no luck. But it seems that the filly has some issues with being told what to do in general, not just where to stand.

Her attitude on the ground is lovely until you ask something of her that she doesn't want to do, then she throws a tantrum. Like this week: Monday was fine, she worked in tack in the round pen. Tuesday she threw herself on the ground when the saddle came out. Wednesday rained out. Thursday she had a tantrum being led in tack and she BROKE and innertube while trying not to tie. Today she had to be cut off the innertube because she was violently banging her head against the tree while practically hanging from a limb. She then exploded and jumped out of the pasture and started running down the road http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I won't spend more space going into her problems, but the trainer thinks that he's not going to be able to do anything with her. I am wondering if her maturity level is playing into this. She really is a nice girl, but I think being in the 'training barn' is stressing her out. I don't expect things to be perfect, but what are the chances that keeping her home and taking things very slowly will be better for her? She's got loads of potential, and I don't want to give up on her, but this trainer is the only one anywhere near me that I'd trust with my babies. I believe him when he says this gal has problems and as nice as she is I don't want to do anything to endanger myself or her.

Help - I need some support or something! Kind words would be welcome... Like, "You are not an idiot Suz", "Things will be o.k." PLEASE!

BeastieSlave
Oct. 31, 2003, 06:48 AM
O.K. I need a bit of support and some positive stories would help too.

I just got off the phone with trainer who is starting my new baby. He wants to send her home. This is the baby who is 3 y.o. and 17hh and won't tie. He's been trying to quietly get the tieing thing taken care of (inner tubes, etc.) with no luck. But it seems that the filly has some issues with being told what to do in general, not just where to stand.

Her attitude on the ground is lovely until you ask something of her that she doesn't want to do, then she throws a tantrum. Like this week: Monday was fine, she worked in tack in the round pen. Tuesday she threw herself on the ground when the saddle came out. Wednesday rained out. Thursday she had a tantrum being led in tack and she BROKE and innertube while trying not to tie. Today she had to be cut off the innertube because she was violently banging her head against the tree while practically hanging from a limb. She then exploded and jumped out of the pasture and started running down the road http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I won't spend more space going into her problems, but the trainer thinks that he's not going to be able to do anything with her. I am wondering if her maturity level is playing into this. She really is a nice girl, but I think being in the 'training barn' is stressing her out. I don't expect things to be perfect, but what are the chances that keeping her home and taking things very slowly will be better for her? She's got loads of potential, and I don't want to give up on her, but this trainer is the only one anywhere near me that I'd trust with my babies. I believe him when he says this gal has problems and as nice as she is I don't want to do anything to endanger myself or her.

Help - I need some support or something! Kind words would be welcome... Like, "You are not an idiot Suz", "Things will be o.k." PLEASE!

Policy of Truth
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:10 AM
What kind of discipline has she received when having these outbursts?

I'm wondering if the horse either wasn't disciplined and NEEDS to be, or if she was disciplined and it was too harsh....just a shot in the dark http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

HunterUnderSaddle
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:14 AM
Hello. Maybe you can go to one of the Pat Parelli clinics. I've never tried natural horsemanship with my horse, but I've heard alot of success stories about dealing with problem horses.

Robby Johnson
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:22 AM
I would also like to know her "since birth" history. And what is her breeding?

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

Janet
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:23 AM
It sounds as if you have an "alpha mare" in the making.

If she won't accept being told what to do, things will only get worse later.

You have to somehow make her accept the handler as "even more alpha", without scaring her or hurting her.

It is largely a question of timimg and personality (and being able to read the horse's body language), as much as specific techniques, so it is hard to describe in words. My sister is REALLY good at it, I am moderately good at it, and I know some otherwise perfectly competent horsewomen who simply can't figure it out.

There have ben quite a few threads on the breeding forum about teaching young stock (especially "stallion prospects") to accept the handler as "alpha", so you might check there.

A couple of techniques mentioned there include-

For 3 seconds, the horse should think the world is about to end. Then everything should go back to normal.

Backing up - for many steps- is a useful correction in many cases.

But sucess really depends on timing and reading the body language- recognizing the moment the horse is challenging you- before it becomes overt misbehavior, and similarly recognizing the moment the horse is ready to submit and accept you.

This is something a lot of the "natural horsemanship" people do well- but they don't have a monopoly on it.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

BeastieSlave
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:25 AM
Pacific Solo- This gal has been getting (IMHO) very consistant, firm, but not harsh discipline at the trainers. I really like this guy. He starts a lot of babies, and they develop into well mannered, balanced beasties. He started my daughter's young TB and I really like his style. I think she's getting appropriate discipline now, but she's getting into that 'dumblood' mode where she just won't give up and things escalate when she starts fighting authority.

As for life before me, I think she didn't have much discipline. She was "handled daily" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Owners said that she tied there, then I thought back to how she was tied for wrapping on the trip home. Their idea of tieing was to loop the leadrope around the post in the stall. Well sure, a 17hh horse is gonna stand in the stall with people around! There's nowhere to go! I think she was just played with, but not really educated, if you know what I mean.

Robby Johnson- She's a HAN by Evergreen out of a TB mare who is a bit hot and tends to be a one person horse. She was at the farm where she was born until I brought her home 2 months ago. Before that the only time she left the farm was to go to HAN inspection as baby with her mom. To me she's made the move well and is calm and settled at my farm. She was very well behaved at the recent inspection at Home Again Farm in FLA. I'd say she's the #2 horse and isn't very pushy with the other mares.

BustersMom
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:25 AM
I am a BIG fan of the Parelli method.
It saved my a$$ numerous times both financially and literally.

Member of the Baby Greenie Support Group

horselesswonder
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:27 AM
Is she a warmblood? Just curious. Edited - posted at the same time as the "dumblood" description. Some of them can be so stubborn!

I guess one option would be send her to a cowboy to learn about her place in the world. I've never had to do it, but I've been tempted in the past. I think if my horse was that large and challenging at three, I'd want to get her butt in shape very quickly. I have a big one (17.2ish) who at five is a handful on the ground (just bought him last year) and it can be exhausting dealing with him. If she's that big at three, don't let it escalate because I'm willing to bet when she gets bigger, she will get worse.

I believe there was a similar thread a while back about a horse named "Shammy." Might want to do a search for it as many posters seemed to have useful suggestions.

Good luck. I hope you're able to get through to her.

Bumpkin
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:28 AM
You are in GA?
Maybe DMK can help you.

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

black dog
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:29 AM
Unless you know what you are doing with babies, please send her off to someone else. I feel as though I am an OK rider. I have riden horses for some time now and thought it would be educational and fun to break my new filly. After reading everything I could on training a youngster, bottom line, I didn't know enough. 1 shattered wrist later from a silly accident, I sent my 3 y.o. out for training. After a lot of checking around, I found a trainer a ways away from me that has been great. It is a pain as I can only get to see her 1x a week because of the drive. But, in the long run, this is what she needs. My trainer lovers her and has been able to teach her things that I just couldn't get into that thick, 16'2 wb head. when they get this big ( and wide http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif) they get strong. They just don't realize it yet. My filly is a love on the ground. she just needed a confident but gentle ridder to explain the ground rules to her.
Don't give up but make your life easy. Find another trainer.
Good luck http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

itsallgood
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:30 AM
What has the horse had done with her before this? In all fairness to the horse, 3 yrs and 17 hands is a little late to be learning to tie.

Not blaming you or anything but for the breeders out there, it is imperative that the babies learn some basic manners etc from birth. This will alleviate many many problems later on down the road.

Weanlings can't break tires and they also are much more easily taught many things while we humans are still bigger than they are.

Now, off my soapbox...Your baby may never get it. She's big and knows it. My recommendation is to take her to a western trainer. They are often much more successful with babies like this.

Is there an AQHA circuit around you? Ask around about who starts their babies and problems. Western saddles and the cowboy way maybe your ticket.

Merry
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:37 AM
Actually, I rather admire your trainer for being honest enough to tell you to come get your baby. I've dealt with both kinds of baby horse trainers: those who are honest... and those who continue to take your money and lie to you over the phone about your horse's progress.

In the 15 years we raised horses, we had a couple who were sent home from school. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif But in every case, eventually they came around and went back to training and were successful riding/show horses.

What made the difference? I think being able to evaluate each horse as an individual. Not every horse fits in every program.

With two of our fillies, it took:
1. Methodically introducing the new concept
2. Patiently explaining what behavior was expected
3. Soothing any obvious real "fears" of the task or situation
4. Once that's settled, reinforcing the wishes of the human, even if it requires the 30-second "Come to Jesus" altercation

It was a good-natured "cowboy" sort who helped work the wonders every time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not the years, honey. It's the mileage." - Indiana Jones

BeastieSlave
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:37 AM
Black Dog- I appreciate where you are coming from. I've been owning horses for 30 years (wow), and I've been through alot of disciplines before I came to hunters: WP, ASB's and TWH's, Arabs, eventing. I'm not the most stylish rider, but I have a good seat and have seen a lot of problems over the years. That said, I don't feel the need to prove anything, and I'm too old, with too many responsibilties to deal with a serious problem horse. I'm hoping that this is all in the timing and approach.

Merry- Thanks! I really wanted to hear that with time and patience she might come around - that others have http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

black dog
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:43 AM
It is! when I went out to check on her progress, in 2 weeks, this guy had her walking, trotting and , in general, having manners under tack. Oh course, she's 3 and still has her moments, but she's come so far so quickly. This guy has been at this for a long time. He says it's just timing and getting them to wait for you to tell them when. If it makes you feel any better, the trainer says, in his experience, mares take a little longer to get things, but once they get it, they have it forever ( still trying to decide if this is good or not http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif)
I wish I knew someone down south to suggest.

rileyt
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:45 AM
Oy. If you know this trainer, and trust his advice, I'd consider very seriously that he may be right. But just because he hasn't had success doesn't mean it might not be worth another try.

When good traditional training doesn't work, I would try Parelli NEXT. It may not work, but there is not a lot of "downside" to it.

If that doesn't work, you may have to consider the "cowboy" option. This should be your last resort. Sometimes, it is what they need... but sending a horse to a cowboy generally has one of two consequences... either it gets fixed,... or the horse gets PERMANENTLY ruined.

Use it as a last resort.

That said, there have been a handful of horses that I have known in my life that really weren't worth the risk. TWO of them were horses that learned to fling itself down on the ground instead of working. This is a dangerous "trick", and its hard to break. If she's learned it, beware. Ultimately,... there are too many nice horses out there, deserving of your love and attention... don't risk becoming a quadraplegic for one rotten apple.

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BeastieSlave
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:01 AM
O.K. you guys need to know a bit about my trainer. He is a bit of a cowboy. His specialty is reining horses (with live cows). His horses win big, and he looks like a great big cowboy. But, he comes from an eventing/Pony Club background. He evented as a kid/teen. His mom is an 'A' level examiner. He starts a lot of WB's for some of the breeders in the area. He did alot for my daughter's young TB, and he really puts emphasis on how the horse uses itself. He focuses on balance, keeping the beastie off the forehand, and going well in the bridle. He knows when a horse is using its hindend. He's so good at getting all that across to horse and rider that my daughter tried to get him to give her regular lessons. Unfortunately for us, he prefers to teach the beasties, although my kid does get to take hers back for ocassional 'freshen-ups'.
He will sometimes use the oldfashioned cowboy ways, but we are both hesitant to try this with my gal because, well frankly, she's a valuable horse and it's not worth hurting her in the process.

rileyt- "Oy" is exactly how I'm feeling!! I trust my trainer and value his opinion. I know he treats each horse like it's his while it's in his barn. I also know he won't just take my money if he doesn't think he can do anything with this horse. I'm grappling with deciding when to say "when", and what to do at that point.

Hidden Hill Farm
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:03 AM
Check your PT's.

OnyxThePony
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:46 AM
I"m really with Merry and black dog. It takes the right training, appllied the right way, at the right time, to get through.

Some trainers only have 'so many' tools at their disposal.. this is why everyone says 'send him to a cowboy'; they have tools the english trainers don't have (and vice versa too). Sometimes you need the right tool.

That said, it could be one of two things. The mare is too smart and dirty to ever be a riding horse, OR she needs to come around. Obviously which one of the two will be apparent in time.
I sent one home, and I sent one (my own young pony prospect a while ago) to meat (first horse I've ever had to do that to http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

The first, I knew she would come around, but that I wasn't the right person for her. We got along fine, really, nothing really major, but didn't see eye to eye, and it wasn't fair to either of us.

The second, well the poor little guy was a disaster in the making. I sent hi in too late, but thankfully and almost luckily, noone got hurt. His behaviour was dangerous to himself, but also or mostly to humans.

I also had one mare who went with head-bashing once while loading. Dont' think I wasn't completely freaked out, but at least I was at the point to say "have it your way" and let her work it out for herself. She's loaded beautifully since.

I've also taken not a few that were considered 'untrainable' and got along just fine, with never a blip. Not that I would ever advertise for 'problem horses', but some were just more suited to me and my methods than anyone else in the world.

I guess at the end, you have to decide along with your gut feeling wether this mare is one who will come around, or who is one of those unfortunate horses who can't be trained without significant risk of injury to herself or people.
With the pony I had put down, noone in the world would do anything with him. They were all right. But he also couldn't be used for breeding, raising foals, pasture buddy, etc, AND he was a threat to humans, so off he went http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
I had one unridable mare, who with her great bloodlines went off to brood. And I've had and sent out horses I just couldn't personally get along with, knowling full well someone else could.

..sorry so long.. just some ramblings from 'the other side'..


Uhhh... I think I'll call it Bob.
BOB?? You can't call a Planet Bob!!
Why not. PlanetBob..has a nice ring to it..

Charming Alibi
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:48 AM
I would recommend that you get some advice from Parelli. I am in the process of starting my level 2. There are some great things you can do with your horse without hurting them, like mentioned before... his methods work and you will definatley see changes for the better in your horse. Doesn't hurt to try, go on their website to get contact info.
www.parelli.com (http://www.parelli.com)

"In riding horses, we borrow freedom"

Bumpkin
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:26 AM
It sounds like you really trust your trainer. Did he make any suggestions?

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

Riverdale
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:26 AM
Make sure your not dealing with fear. The freaking out on the innertube sounds like panic to me...not a bad attitude. Throwing herself on the ground is another sign she is not coping well with her environment.

She needs a trainer that can deal with quirky horses...this one isn't it.

I don't think you need the heavy handed approach here..but someone who can be patient and with an great understanding of horse bahaviour.

A big WB mares is a whole lot different in personality then a QH. You can't "cowboy" those. I can't believe he tied her to a tree. It sounds like the "patience pole" approach I've heard some Western trainers use. It may work for some horses, but it is a great way to get a horse to get hurt...you're just asking for a neck injury.

I reccommend you bring your horse home, rebuild her trust in people, and find someone who enjoys working through such problems. They tend to be affiliated with natural horsemanship people, but not allways.

In fact...how far are you from Northern Florida. I've seen Ponyboy in action and higly reccommend him. He would be perfect choice for working with a horses like her. Maybe he could refer you to someone in the area, or maybe you could bring him to his place. I think just opened a training facility.

www3.sympatico.ca/vnc

horselesswonder
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:47 AM
Not speaking to your mare, as I obviously don't know her, but I have to disagree with Riverdale. In my experience, warmbloods are different in that as young horses, they tend to be opinionated, bratty little buggers. This mare isn't the first WB I've heard of that threw itself on the ground to avoid doing what a person was asking it to do.

Where I might believe that a TB is scared and nneding its trust in humans rebuilt, with a WB I might be more inclined to think the horse is saying "waaaah, I don't wanna" and using its bulk to that effect.

I had one DWB that as a three-year-old would break the crossties almost every time he was in them. He had been trained to cross-tie as a youngster and we had no problems with him until he got big enough to give us problems. Then he was like "whopeee, you can't make me." I resorted to tieing him with yarn to avoid breaking crossties, halters and once, even his front shoes from pulling back so hard and with such lightning speed. He wasn't scared or confused - he was just being rank. He outgrew it, thankfully, but man did sparks fly in the meantime. He also bit and refused to pick up his feet. I had to hold a crop while I groomed him. As he got older, he got better, but he was simply a difficult WB young 'un that had he not had discipline at an early age would have been impossible as he grew.

MeanderCreek
Oct. 31, 2003, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A big WB mare is a whole lot different than a QH. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As someone who has QHs and WBs and a few TBs and even an Arab - I just have to say that I'm so sick of hearing this garbage. Its a horse - I don't care what kind of a horse it is - its a horse. Get over the it has to be treated special because its such and such or worth so much and start treating it like a horse - tippytoeing around isn't going to accomplish anything.

If the original horse were mine, I'd probably bring it home for awhile and see how things went and try again in a few months with this trainer or another. If things improve - continue, if not sell her to someone who likes banging their head against a wall.

Edited to add... when I was taking outside horses I only ever sent three home and all three of those are still dangerous not only to people, but also to themselves. Of my own, I've had two that I hired a crash test dummy to get on the first couple rides. Both came around wonderfully in not much time and a third of mine I sent away permanently because he flat out was going to kill someone. Another dumblood mare of mine went through the flinging herself to the ground phase when I started her. She did it a half dozen times, each of which was followed by signifigant forced exertion then spending awhile tied in the corner and going out to play again later. She was always more willing to play by my rules when the evening session came around. She did eventually become a decent horse - a knottheaded dumblood type but successful for the amateur who eventually bought her.

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

[This message was edited by MeanderCreek on Oct. 31, 2003 at 02:54 PM.]

deltawave
Oct. 31, 2003, 11:54 AM
Got to second the motion of doing some sort of ground work, a'la Parelli. I wouldn't, however, recommend you just start in on your own....I did a week of daily, intensive Parelli system stuff this summer and while I could have easily answered all the questions on method beforehand based on basic horse behavior, there was a LOT about body language, etc. that is very subtle and not easy to describe.

I'd by NO MEANS call myself an expert on it, nor am I the type to espouse one particular method hook, line, and sinker, but my big, bossy WB mare (NOT a filly--age 16) underwent a MAJOR change with this type of handling and it's still evident even though I only do the work very occasionally now. The difference between my handling, though, and one of the experts was HUGE--I am pitiful in comparison! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Throwing herself on the ground is a sign of a pissy temperamental fit, not fear or panic. It doesn't mean she's a bad horse (my filly did it as a weanling/yearling) but she's being a Drama Queen. One member of the pair must be the non-escalating type: the trainer. Sounds like your trainer IS going about it right, but maybe she has his number and it's time for a change of scenery.

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!

horselesswonder
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:00 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but anyone out there seen horses other than WB's throw themselves to the ground? Just curious.

deltawave
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:02 PM
Bonnie, who did it maybe half a dozen times between the ages of 4 months and 2 years, is an Irish Draught/TB cross. That's NOT a warmblood! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif She is alpha, alpha, alpha, though!
---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!

Tha Ridge
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:10 PM
So, you're working a 3-year-old warmblood under tack? What about letting her grow up for a year and working on the basic things that ANY horse should know (tying, etc.) before even bringing a saddle near her. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Now, if she were a Thoroughbred or something else that matures quickly, then maybe it would be different.

- L.

Je suis un salamander. J'entrerai dans le feu mais je ne brûlerai pas.

inca
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:14 PM
I have to agree with everyone who is recommending Parelli. I started in January with my 3 year old filly who had gotten a bit difficult. Never gave me a single moments trouble until she was 2 1/2 then all of a sudden she didn't really want to be told what to do, unless it fit into "her program." The Parelli has helped a LOT. It pushed a lot of buttons and caused some even worse behavior at the beginning but the change in this filly has been REMARKABLE. (Not that it happened overnight and not that she is perfect now! Just now I can effectively deal with her stubborn streak!) Now, I didn't have as serious of problems as you are describing but I do highly recommend it. The point of the Parelli program is for YOU to become the leader. May take a while but it's worth it! Gets to be a LOT of fun once you work past the initial resisitance. (Working past that resistant ISN'T fun but you need to do it sooner rather than later.)

horselesswonder
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:20 PM
TR, Yeah right! Personally, I would not wait until a WB that size was four before sitting on it. Were it mine, I probably would have hopped on its back at two when it was smaller.

deltawave
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by inca:
It pushed a lot of buttons and caused some even worse behavior at the beginning <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes indeed! This was what I noticed, too. Better to get out the demons while standing on the ground, I figure! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!

BeastieSlave
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:25 PM
Riverdale-
I know what you are worried about, and this isn't it. This gal is fine to tie if you are nearby and giving her the attention she 'deserves'. If you walk away, say to the tackroom, she thinks it means she doesn't need to be there (why should she, YOU'RE not staying). Once she starts the fight to leave, she's not backing down! Everytime something has to give. So far it's been the halters, leadropes, or the people.

As for the tree, I posted a while back on her tieing issue. She's had ample opportunity to tie to any number of more conventional things. Basically, it's coming down to safety. When your horse attacks the telephone pole hitching post with front feet flying, and then throws herself on the ground, there are all sorts of ways you can imagine her hurting herself! A good strong treelimb above her head with an innertube to attach the leadrope to is a very good choice (IMHO) in this situation. The limb and innertube have a bit of give which I like because it won't be so hard on her neck if (when) she throws herself around. The limb also allows the tie to be above her head, making it less likeley that she'll get a leg over the leadrope when she goes up.

BTW, she was never left unattended, and she wasn't asked to stand tied for long periods.

Tha Ridge- I'm not asking for real work and have every intention of taking things slow with this gal. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a 3 1/2 y.o. to be poking around under saddle - even this big Baby Huie. I WOULD like to be able to tie her, and I WOULD like to be able to walk around on her on the 1,500 acre farm where I keep my beasties. The weather here is too nice in the winter to waste it waiting for her to be a magic age. I don't think I'm asking too much, and I am willing to find the way to ask her that works for both of us.

sphorse
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:41 PM
Parelli, Schma-relli---it doesn't matter what name you attach to it, the difference is gonna be the 'price' you'll pay. The Parelli 'method' (and I use the term loosely) is fine and dandy, but when I was coming along we just called it 'training"--only we didn't have the sexxy name for our method, or goodies that go along with it--the 'wand' and all that mess. If a 'trainer' uses the Parelli 'method' you'll pay more--if you go to a true 'horseman' (from the old school) it's gonna run you less for the same results. Now. Sounds like a spoiled youngster--and a spoiled big warm-blood youngster to boot. Not my fave by a long shot. But it doesn't sound impossible--not yet anyway. Lot's of times they learn to let you think it's fear (some of them are really 'method actors' pretending to be horses) when it's really a case of the dreaded '...I don't wanna..' Don't laugh....and don't shoot the messenger, but I used to deal with this sort of thing all the time. My last resort was to 4-foot them. With that big a horse, you'll need a couple more than the usual two it takes. A nice soft cotton rope to prevent a rope burn. Leave them down for a bit and do all sorts of things like clip ears, etc. Like I said...this is a last resort situation--however it never failed and I never had any injuries as we knew what we were doing. A big youngster like that won't tie at three is.....well....only going to get worse unless you do something--and NOW!! OK--my flame-redardant suit is now in place.

deltawave
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:46 PM
I also think sphorse is right: it doesn't matter if it's Parelli style or Joe's horsemanship....the good thing about the "name brands" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif is that they are available, accessible, and you know what you're dealing with. For an amateur who's above their head in dealing with a problem, it's more of a known entity.

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!

monami
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:55 PM
suzss -

I had a very similar experience w/ a Hanoverian mare that I own. I had her with a very reputable "cowboy" trainer.

I was there everytime he worked with her so I know exactly what was done, however something just did not click between the two.

When we both agreed that his saftey was in jepordy I left her alone for a month and then had a female dressage trainer work with her and VIOLA... totally different horse and speedy progress!!!

My horse is not rank nor evil... In fact she is a wonderful animal that I will never part with. I can't explain what happened w/ the male trainer... but I am glad that I did not give up on the horse.

BeastieSlave
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:57 PM
sphorse and deltawave- this is what is worrying me most. My trainer is one of those good, commonsense horse people who (to me) seems to be able to work through everything. He has a good way of working with youngsters and really tries not to upset them with anything he does. He's very good at working with them at a level they're comfortable with. I like to think I'm a good horseperson, but I know that the only thing I have to offer that he doesn't is time and her being "home".
I DO feel that my gal is being a brat, and I DO know she's not going to wake up one morning and be over it. If I'm going to keep her, I have to find a way to get her to come around to my way of thinking!

Monami- THANK YOU! That's what I want to hear! I really do think that my gal is not happy at my trianer's - for whatever reason. They don't seem to be having personal issues, he really likes her, but... Maybe she doesn't like him and loves me MOST http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

EskimoRoll
Oct. 31, 2003, 01:01 PM
I would look into Pat Parelli. I had a horse who was head strong and after some lesson of Pat Parelli she was a ton better.

monami
Oct. 31, 2003, 01:13 PM
suzss-

The 1st trainer told me she was the 1st horse he was not able to progress with...

If you want the name of the person that was sucessful with her I would be happy to send you her info. I would bet that she would have your mare trotting crossrails in 30 days (she probably still wouldn't tie though---lol!!!)

sphorse
Oct. 31, 2003, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suzss:
sphorse and deltawave- this is what is worrying me most. My trainer is one of those good, commonsense horse people who (to me) seems to be able to work through everything. He has a good way of working with youngsters and really tries not to upset them with anything he does. He's very good at working with them at a level they're comfortable with. I like to think I'm a good horseperson, but I know that the only thing I have to offer that he doesn't is time and her being "home".
I DO feel that my gal is being a brat, and I DO know she's not going to wake up one morning and be over it. If I'm going to keep her, I have to find a way to get her to come around to my way of thinking!

Monami- THANK YOU! That's what I want to hear! I really do think that my gal is not happy at my trianer's - for whatever reason. They don't seem to be having personal issues, he really likes her, but... Maybe she doesn't like him and loves me MOST http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But 'time' isn't on your side. Even for warm bloods. It's one thing for it to be a 'goofy' warm blood that isn't going to mature until they're about 9 or 10 (th'breds 'grow up' quicker--usually by 6 or 7). What you're dealing with is dangerous. That said...I do know of a European guy that doesn't even touch his horses until they're 5--a friend of mine that rode for him has the scars to proove it. These are rank youngsters (5 year olds!!!!) with no manners. Glad it was her and not me that was dealing with it. Like I said...for this situation, time is not on your side--things like tieing, etc....those kinds of things need to be 'in there' early on---they're building blocks for what's to come later. You could ignore it and operate 'around it', but there will be 'holes' in her training, and things will get worse before they get better. OK...my flame-redardant suit is now in place.

Robby Johnson
Oct. 31, 2003, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suzss:
Pacific Solo- This gal has been getting (IMHO) very consistant, firm, but not harsh discipline at the trainers. I really like this guy. He starts a lot of babies, and they develop into well mannered, balanced beasties. He started my daughter's young TB and I really like his style. I think she's getting appropriate discipline now, but she's getting into that 'dumblood' mode where she just won't give up and things escalate when she starts fighting authority.

As for life before me, I think she didn't have much discipline. She was "handled daily" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Owners said that she tied there, then I thought back to how she was tied for wrapping on the trip home. Their idea of tieing was to loop the leadrope around the post in the stall. Well sure, a 17hh horse is gonna stand in the stall with people around! There's nowhere to go! I think she was just played with, but not really educated, if you know what I mean.

Robby Johnson- She's a HAN by Evergreen out of a TB mare who is a bit hot and tends to be a one person horse. She was at the farm where she was born until I brought her home 2 months ago. Before that the only time she left the farm was to go to HAN inspection as baby with her mom. To me she's made the move well and is calm and settled at my farm. She was very well behaved at the recent inspection at Home Again Farm in FLA. I'd say she's the #2 horse and isn't very pushy with the other mares.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

suzss -

That background was enlightening. Maybe she just needs some time to adapt and start S-L-O-W. The trainer who's working with her now ... are the more accustomed to polishing off a three year-old, or doing the intense leg work of basics as well?

It sounds to me as if the mare is horrified by what she's being asked to do and a very slow/steady approach is better for her little brain.

I wish you luck!

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

Lord Helpus
Oct. 31, 2003, 01:53 PM
Two words:

Neck Donkey

These fabulous animals teach horses humilty, patience and the important fact that they are not the center of the universe.

It can take up to 3 days (8 hour days) of a horse being tied to the donkey before a strong willed horse learns. But I have seen it work. The horse cannot walk unless the donkey wants to walk. It cannot drink unless the donkey wants to drink. It must lie down when the donkey wants to lie down. It learns that ITS wishes are not important.

Ask around and find out who in your area has one of these invaluable creatures and send your filly there.

Onthe other end of the spectrum, I had a John Lyons employee work with a horse who had no respect for humans. In 5 days, the horse had totally turned around and realized it was not the Alpha being in the herd. The first day was hard to watch; it was a test of wills and the human won. The second day was less bad, but the horse still tested the human a lot. By the third day, the balance had changed and from then on the lessons could focus on refining authority.

That was equally impressive to watch.

With a horse like this it is important to pick your battles and then make damn sure you win them.

Good Luck!

Hidden Hill Farm
Oct. 31, 2003, 02:00 PM
LOL....

OMG, I thought I had heard of everything.

I'm going to have to ask my husband if he's ever heard of a "Neck Donkey". It sounds like a great idea.

T-Rex
Oct. 31, 2003, 02:06 PM
I don't think your mare has been "horrified" by anything. Rather, she's learned all the loopholes. She's learned that crossties break, halters break, and humans give in. This is why the advice about the cowboy method is right.

Your trainer sounds great, but it's important to determine whether he thinks the mare is unfixable, or whether he determined the mare is not worth HIS time. He's got lots of horses to train, so he may figure any further effort with your mare isn't worth the extra bodily risk, liability for any injury to your mare, and time it takes from his other horses. Just a business decision, not a "write-off" of your horse as a lost cause. He does sound like a straight-shooter.

Consider whether she's of any use to you as-is. Could you sell her as-is in good faith? Could you breed her without passing along this temperamental defect? Will she ever be the kind of horse YOU want? If you can stand her as-is, then don't risk injuring her. But be realistic about what you'll ever expect her to do, which isn't much right now.

Under the cowboy method, your mare would be fitted with a stout, unbreakable nylon halter that won't break, very well fitted so that the crown piece won't slide back (sliding back makes neck injuries more likely). Then she needs to be tied with a stout unbreakable rope (including an unbreakable snap) to an unbreakable object, like the strong tree you described. She should be on dirt so that sparks WON't fly. Then, walk away. Sounds like you wouldn't even need to sack her out to get her to pull -- just deprive her of attention. No offense, but she sounds quite spoiled on the attention front. Bottom line -- she's got to learn that she can't break away, and she'll only learn that through experience now. If she falls down, she falls down. A cowboy might hobble her at that point, so that she CAN't GET UP. He'd cushion her head, protect her from extreme heat or cold, but he'd let her lay there a while to think about her situation. After that, she wouldn't throw herself down anymore. The cowboy method doesn't involve pain -- just teaching your horse the consequences of her actions. Innertubes on crossties do no such thing.

Grasshopper
Oct. 31, 2003, 02:24 PM
I'll second Riverdale in recommending Ponyboy. I watched him at an expo the weekend after purchasing my 16.2 alpha mare (who was 8 then). She was/is definitely a "tester" and I also got his videos to refer back to when I needed help dealing with that testing. I've watched other "natural horsemen" and just had a better feeling about Pony--he seems to work a little more slowly, emphasizes that some things may take (a lot) of time, and focuses on building a good foundation. His methods are of course not new or unique, but watching him is an education in body language and timing. It also encouraged me to spend more time just observing my mare and how she reacts/acts in different situations, and now I have a MUCH better idea of what works for her (even down to turnout group size and dynamics, environment, and routine).

While I agree that a horse is a horse, I have to admit that at the last barn I boarded at, I saw more balky behavior from WB mares in a few months than I'd seen from other breeds in a few years. One mare had a problem cross-tying and with going forward while lunging (and would also switch back and forth from ears-perked curious filly to teeth-baring witch mare in seconds) so the trainer rigged her up in a French gogue (I think) with a line around the back of the haunches, while in cross-ties and lunging. It worked for keeping that mare from sitting down/back, and they started her with it under saddle, very slowly. When I left, they had just started riding her without it, and she was doing fine. I don't remember the exact arrangement--if you're interested, PT me and I'll give you the name and # of the trainer. That mare also needed to be a "one-person" horse, and it took her a long time to learn to trust each individual person.

Sounds like yours is quite the challenge, but hopefully you can find a way to break through to her. Good luck!

Robby Johnson
Oct. 31, 2003, 02:24 PM
I think for a horse to be dragged up out of the pasture, basically un-handled, and taken to a trainer within 2 months isn't entirely off-base or out of the question. Ideally the horse would've been handled more since birth - just simple stuff like walking on a lead, picking up feet for farrier, etc.

If she really is quiet and has a generally good temperament, I would be worried that her "holes" are being misapplied as willfully-bad behavior issues. I think the instances of a horse being willfully bad or psychotic are usually low, but I think horses are smart and they learn things quickly. If she can learn a bad habit within three repetitions, she can relearn a good habit within 6!!

It goes without saying that training is sometimes not pretty, but I hate to think of a horse put into a situation wherein she cannot process what is happening - simply because she has no exposure or beforehand experience - then melting down to the point of jumping a fence and running off. What if she'd been smacked by an oncoming truck?

At just 3, I wouldn't throw in the towel. I'd just find someone who specializes in horses like her. Also, I think you should really work directly with your trainer since the intention is obviously for you to one day ride the horse. You need to understand her behavior patterns and how to draw your lines safely in the sand.

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

Grasshopper
Oct. 31, 2003, 02:28 PM
Okay, 2 questions:
What's "4-footing" a horse??

And how do you arrange the "Neck Donkey" thingamajig??

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif feeling a little clueless here...

INoMrEd
Oct. 31, 2003, 03:02 PM
Lord Helpus - The neck donkey thing has me in stitches. You may be serious but I find THAT very amusing today.

suzss - FWIW I have had two horses that never did tie. They were marvelous animals otherwise they just didn't tie nor were we ever able remedy it!

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - DAVE BARRY

good booie
Oct. 31, 2003, 03:13 PM
NECK DONKEY http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Oh my....

Just doesn't seem right.

Love my Quarter Horse!

Proud member of Team Barefoot!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BeastieSlave
Oct. 31, 2003, 03:42 PM
OMG!!! My trainer has a 'neck donkey'!!!
It's really a 'neck mule'. She's the cutest thing and her sole purpose (believe it or not) is to teach beasties to tie. Evidently she's really tough and gets her kicks from putting the bigger beasties in their places. My trainer got her from a guy who used her to teach steers to tie http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I haven't let him use the mule on my gal because she's so much taller than the mule, I envision all kinds of ways she'll hurt the little thing. One day when I was there she had 'laid down' a TB that was learning to tie, and she had somehow gotten a front leg over the rubber 'collar' around her neck. When the TB got up, she was basically standing with her knee near her neck. Fortunately, the TB was being still and she just ended up a bit sore.

FYI the way his neck mule works is: the mule has rubber collar (it's really a neoprene dressage girth) that is attached to the problem horse's halter with an unbreakable hook. The horse and donkey spend some 'quality time' in the sand arena. If the horse is pulling and being a pain, the mule will drag it around and throw it off balance, even throwing to the ground. When the horse is good the mule is good http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif When the horse stands quietly for a while, they can be done. My trainer says it only takes a couple times and the horse has a whole new attitude.
I just don't know if I can subject the 13hh mule to my 17hh horse.

[This message was edited by suzss on Oct. 31, 2003 at 06:51 PM.]

mbp
Oct. 31, 2003, 03:56 PM
I will also say that sometimes wb mares have a special talent for stubborn. Your girl is half tb too, correct? So she may have a bigger jerk/startle/explode reflex to go with that and not make her super ez. Didn't you also say, though, that her mother was very much a one person horse? If so, I think you have a stubborn, reactive, alpha tendency mare who needs to both have a boss, and have it be someone she trusts.

My old guy, who was put down at 32, busted many a halter when I first got him at 6. His was more a panic reaction, and to be honest - he would have hurt or killed himseld with sacking out and patience pole treatment. He pulled a set in concrete pole out of the ground. He would immediately settle after he got free. Eventually - we can to terms. Boy did it take a long time.

There is aplace in Lexington that does the donkey/mule thing - they had those horses attached to mules behind the arena when I took a mare for an inspection. SHe was shocked and buzzed over seeing them and I did whisper in her ear that I would take one home and tie it to her if she didn't behave LOL I'd say you could try it, but she is a big mare - I think she might well be able to drag the donkey about a bit - there was a mare doing that when I watched. She drug her guy across the arena to the stock tankwhile he was trying to lie down. After a few steps, she pawed him pretty good and he got up. THey both had a few marks on them. The other pairs looked pretty peaceful - just mismatched. The mares had to keep their heads down all the time. Since it was night and they were going to be left that way - I did think it was a very uncomfortable thing just to establish a point - like tieing a 7yo child to an adults neck, you would have to stoop the whole time and get pretty sore. That might be the ticket for some horses, I just didn't really get it.

Do you have any really boss horse that she respects or could be made to respect to turn her out with? As her sole and only turnout partner? Maybe some cranky broodmares?

Also, whatever you call it, take a few months just doing ground work with her. Consistently make her step away, come to you, leave your space when you feed her, etc. Work on voice commands. Sometimes you need to backdoor your authority too. I have a tough young horse that did not want to go into the wash stall at the new barn. I was alone and I know that he has a high pain threshold and high stubborn factor. So I didn't fight. I put him in his stall. Turned out all the other horses. Went and had tea. Came back and he REALLY WANTED to go out. We tried the washrack again, at the first refusal - back in his stall. Back to the house I go, with pathetic cries in the background. Half an hour later, I come out, we go directly into the washrack. He gets a carrot and gets turned out. Next time we try he starts to hesitate in his step and looks at me - and you can literally see the wheels turn.

Anyway - good luck finding the right option. Whether it is Parelli, more turnout, a donkey (or a nice cranky broodmare) to tie to the neck , whatever is the right thing, I bet there is SOME RIGHT THING. You'll sort through the suggestions, consider the mare, and we'll jingle for the right thing to come your way - and I bet it will happen. There are lots of different options - she is only 3, you haven't had her that long- too early to give up.

foursocks
Oct. 31, 2003, 04:14 PM
Hear hear, mbp! With time and patience, your chances are good that you will find the right trainer for her, and the right approach or approaches to take. She sounds like she is being a big pain in the butt, literally and figuratively and she needs someone to show her that a) she can't get away with it, but also that b) life is rewarding, fun, and interesting when she does respond well. She *is* a baby, she's just a monster baby who is using her size to be a jerk- she doesn't sound irreclaimable yet to me.

Good luck!!!

You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that wont change its shape. Jets to Brazil

witherbee
Oct. 31, 2003, 04:17 PM
Suzss, such a tough thing - you love her and know she has potential, and then this happens! I think you hit the nail on the head with saying that her bad behavior starts when she doesn't want to do something - if we only had them do what they want we'd be walking around grazing! It sounds like your trainer is excellent and honest, but it does happen that some trainers and some horses just aren't a match. You probably want to take her to someone who deals with a lot of warmbloods and warmblood crosses - they do have their own brand of stubborness. I've heard so many stories of people buying a warmblood at 8 or 9 years old dirt cheap and then they get them home and find out why - they are great for one or 2 rides and then all he|| breaks loose! The fact that she's 3 and so big and has probably only been handled to the point where she resisted prior to your getting her is not helping. At 3 you still have time, so I would shop around for another trainer (even though yours sounds wonderful - just maybe mot a match for this girl). Best of luck and keep us posted.

Smithereens
Oct. 31, 2003, 04:28 PM
Unfortunately I have delt with a mare like this. She also was Han/TB and while her issues weren't specifically with tieing, they could arise at any time she decided she didn't want to do something (trailering on a trailer she had been on hundreds of times, being on a crosstie she has always stood on, going out in her usual paddock, warming up at a show, etc, etc). She is a very very dramatic mare and made a scene out of everything, and often becoming a threat to opur safety. We went over her history a hundred times and found no reasons why she should have fear of any sort. We tried hormonal therapies, she has had endless training with a trainer who specializes in "problem" horses (who I completely trust and believe in his methods) and nothing changed! I have almost never seen this man "give up" and I saw it with this horse; it just wasn't worth it. At 8 years old, we have given up as far as riding and showing goes; it is just too dangerous and unpredictable. She is beautiful, athletic and talented but it's just not worth the mental and physical stress.

Anyway, my suggestion from dealing with it is fix it NOW! I don't have advice as far as a particular method, but the pattern has to be stopped! As far as pattern I mean she has to learn that she cannot thow a fit and get her way. The mare I rode knew she could and if we didn't back down she then learned how to throw bigger fits. We didn't get the horse early enough to fix her habits, the had already become part of her. I wish you the best of luck and my advice is to fix it before it becomes a way she deals with everything, not just tieing. It may not become this for your mare, but that is the experience I had.

MsHunter
Oct. 31, 2003, 04:50 PM
OK I should just keep my mouth shut, but since we start young horses for people at my farm and have not once had a problem and all are still showing or have begun showing even ones people thought we'd never sit on, I am going to open my big mouth.

Why would you have a fancy WB/TB cross "in training" with someone that uses innertubes and tree limbs?

This just isn't typical or even part of any training regimen I have used or even thought about using, and I think I'd respond the same way your mare did.

Just my 2 cents.
Find another trainer, with a little less cowboy and a whole lot of guts.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

Merry
Oct. 31, 2003, 04:58 PM
People often ask me how I ended up being happily married for 20+ years.

My answer:
"The first few weeks of my marriage, my husband was attached to a neck donkey." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hidden Hill Farm
Oct. 31, 2003, 05:07 PM
Husband and I are now both cracking up over the neck donkey.

Black Market Radio
Oct. 31, 2003, 05:07 PM
Hehe!!! "reining with live cows", that would be "working cow horse" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Sorry, just had to laugh at that!

Can't offer any advice on this, but IMO, "sending out to the cowboy" doesn't have to be a last resort. I guess it depends on your def. of "Cowboy". The ones around here are VERY good, fair, and have excellent results. But, there are the ones out there that give REAL cowboys a bad name, and those are the ones to avoid like the plague. But there are more "English" trainers in my area that I am weary of than cowboys!!!

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

bounce1087
Oct. 31, 2003, 05:17 PM
We have two horses at our barn that both fit character traits of your horse. The first is definetely and alpha mare. She has beaten me up more than once, bit my chest, reared and kicked my arm, cantered over me and hit my knee, flung me across the paddock by bucking and kicking my lower back, and running me daily into her stall. She has once tried to attack me in the stall, but I had a hose, and a little cold water in the face did the trick! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have tried working with this animal, but she came from a place where she had to fight for her food, and I don't think anything will bring her around. I know your mare is not aggressive, but this just goes to show that sometimes bad things happen to horses and it's irreversible.

The other horse at the barn when in training layed down in the sand with the rider when she didn't feel like working anymore. My boss had the rider carry a crop at all times, and as soon as the pony layed down, she was smacked until she got back up, and then rewarded. It sounds mean, but it worked! She never became aggressive from it, and she now moves through workouts like a normal horse. She's NOT scared of crops, or whips, or laying down in general, she just knows she's not allowed to lay down with a rider. I hope this helps.

imapepper
Oct. 31, 2003, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MeanderCreek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A big WB mare is a whole lot different than a QH. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As someone who has QHs and WBs and a few TBs and even an Arab - I just have to say that I'm so sick of hearing this garbage. Its a horse - I don't care what kind of a horse it is - its a horse. Get over the it has to be treated special because its such and such or worth so much and start treating it like a horse - tippytoeing around isn't going to accomplish anything.

If the original horse were mine, I'd probably bring it home for awhile and see how things went and try again in a few months with this trainer or another. If things improve - continue, if not sell her to someone who likes banging their head against a wall.


http://www.meandercreekstable.com

[This message was edited by MeanderCreek on Oct. 31, 2003 at 02:54 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for saying that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I was thinking the same thing myself.

bigbay
Oct. 31, 2003, 05:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horselesswonder:
Not to hijack the thread, but anyone out there seen horses other than WB's throw themselves to the ground? Just curious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I knew a 4 y.o. TB once who was just a champ at it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Thing is, I feel like I can usually tell when the wig-outs are strict fear/nervousness (or, as R.J. put it they're "horrified").... and when they're just really having a temper tantrum. The warmbloods may not hold a monopoly on throwing themselves to the ground, but they invented the temper-tantrum. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

There's just some horses that look at you like you're a human, and then there's some horses (usually the ones that have been "handled daily") that look at you like you're a two legged horse.

Those ones can be great, sweet little herdmates 80% of the time, but when push comes to shove, they like to shove harder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Luckily, there's many remedies for that, most of which have quite wisely been listed on this thread.

Lord Helpus
Oct. 31, 2003, 05:33 PM
Suzss (I am not spelling that right, am I??)

Since you have a neck mule available, why not see how it goes? Will your trainer try them together? Neck mules/donkeys are always smaller than their "patients" -- who are often very opinionated stud colts, in my limited experience.

For all of you who are getting a big smile out of the idea, you have to see it in action. I was..... agape..... confounded......amazed..... and very impressed.

Those little donkeys/mules don't put up with any shit. If some doofus of a horse thinks that it is pretty hot stuff, it will quickly learn that it is not in the same league with the little donkey.

WARNING: These neck donkeys are special creatures. One should not go out and get the miniature donkey in the back paddock and rope it up to Big Sam...... A good neck donkey has a particular personality and has been *trained* in the art of humiliating a big horse. Gotta love the little guys.....

And Merry, I can see how a short stint with a neck donkey would be the ideal husband training method. I only wish I had thought of it 15 years ago... Sigh...

juniormom
Oct. 31, 2003, 05:53 PM
All I can say is that I would send her to the cowboy and not hesitate in the least. We had a young green one that we tried all the ways to be nice and he never got through it. We messed around with it far too long. He was rearing, etc. We should have sent him to the cowboy long before we thought about it. We ended up just "selling him for almost nothing" and with the understanding that he had these problems and they would have to deal with them. He was worth messing with as he moved a "10" and jumped with his knees to his eyeballs. He just needed a brain transplant. So, don't get yourself hurt and don't wait too long! (We like the Parelli method too, but it didn't do anything for this horse we had. It was too "nice" for him.) Good Luck!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

bigbay
Oct. 31, 2003, 05:56 PM
If you try the neck donkey, let us know how it works! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Since you have one of these rare little animals right in your backyard, it seems too good an opportunity to pass up.....

EqTrainer
Oct. 31, 2003, 06:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suzss:
(snipped for brevity)
He will sometimes use the oldfashioned cowboy ways, but we are both hesitant to try this with my gal because, well frankly, she's a valuable horse and it's not worth hurting her in the process.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is a very revealing statement. Regardless of her value, she needs to be managed the same as any other horse trying to establish herself as alpha mare.

If she were in a herd of broodmares, they would not care how much $$ she was worth.

And quite frankly - if she can't join the world, she is valueless.

Sometimes you just have to let the horse make the decision to get it together. Meaning - if she is beating her head on the tree - walk away. It's her choice. I bet if you allow her to start making choices that have true ramifications she might shape up a lot quicker.

But just in case she is one of those horses PlanetBob speaks of.... get her insured http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

kt-rose
Oct. 31, 2003, 06:13 PM
Try turning her out for the winter with a band of broodmares -- they take no prisoners and will put manners on a young horse like nothing else. She'll be grateful to come in and get put on the cross ties. Extended version of the neck donkey -- bring her down a few pegs!

My mare is 17.2 and just turned five -- she's being an angel but there have been a few times when she has tested the waters -- if I could not put an immediate stop to whatever behavior was pushing the limit she went straight to my trainer for a serious 'conversation' -- she is far too big and strong to do anything but exactly what she is told -- she'll hurt herself or someone else far more easily than a smaller horse. Like LordHelpUs said -- pick your battles and win them!! Doesn't matter how well they move or jump if they aren't putting their huge feet where you want them!

Kate

deltawave
Nov. 1, 2003, 05:28 AM
A horse who can't be ridden, handled safely, or perform her job isn't valuable at all. Nor should it be bred. At some point "pedigree" and "potential" have to take a back seat to earning a living. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
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Celtic Witch
Nov. 1, 2003, 08:50 AM
First, amen to what deltawave said. At this point, you mare is worth the meatman's price regardless of her pedigree or natural talent. If you are worried about price, get her insured before proceeding.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kt-rose:
Try turning her out for the winter with a band of broodmares -- they take no prisoners and will put manners on a young horse like nothing else. She'll be grateful to come in and get put on the cross ties. Extended version of the neck donkey -- bring her down a few pegs!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is my favourite for youngsters who would rather fight than learn. Nothing teaches them manners (or how to speak their own language) quicker or instills it so deeply. This is my main gripe against babies being raised in stables! They do not learn how to behave like a horse and if the handling is not right, it produces monsters.

I had an incredible 3 year old ISH jumper prospect offered to me three years ago in England for free lease. He was just like the mare described and would quite happily stand up and strike at you, even walking on his hind legs to get at you. I stuck it out and schooled him for an hour during my assessment and a much politer horse was led back to the stable but I wasn't taking him home to my livery yard.

Instead, I suggested that she see if he could be turned out with the neighbour's band of 20 broodmares for a year and then I would happily buy him. She didn't like that and went for advice from one of England's top remedial trainers; she said the same thing. So, a year after being told exactly when he could eat, drink and sleep, a horse who was ready to learn and viewed humans as saviours was brought up from the field. He was no trouble to break in.

Susie

Royal Oak Sporthorses (http://)
Dutch Warmbloods & British Sporthorses.

Invite
Nov. 1, 2003, 09:20 AM
There is hope http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well, my situation was a bit different, but there were striking similarities. My boy tied, but leading him and being in the stall with him was a nightmare!!!! He's a Thoroughbred, but a slow maturing, very large horse...17.2 hands at 3. As a 2 year old, he would lean on me, push me around, rear, bolt, and strike out. I tried the lip chain, the chain through the mouth, a "Be Nice" halter, etc. Nothing worked until I started traveling with a whip. Any time I was working with him, even just going into his stall to scoop a poop, I carried a dressage whip. The moment he started to act up, he would get the whip across his chest. One quick whack, and we would continue on with what we were doing. I did not abuse him and never left welts or anything.

It took very few sessions with the whip to get him to respect my space and behave. He now leads with just a plain lead, no chain over the nose and he is a perfect gentleman in the stall. If he starts getting a bit pushy, I growl at him and he straightens out...thank goodness i'm not at a boarding stable, people would find me very strange.

I remember one of the John Lyon's magazines had an article on training to tie. I will look for it later tonight. Hopefully I didn't recycle it. I'm not sure of the exact wording, I'm pretty sure it said something about never tying a horse who will pull back. If they aren't trained to give to pressure, they will just keep pulling, thus learning pulling back will release them.

Unfortunately, your horse has learned she can pull back and get out of being tied. You will probably have to start back at square one with her.

Good luck http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BeastieSlave
Nov. 1, 2003, 10:15 AM
I thank you all so much for your replys!! Lots of food for thought, and it helps to know I'm not the only one who has to deal with troublesome beasties.

I go get my gal this aftenoon. I'll keep you postsed.

I also am in agreement with the folks who feel that a horse you can't work with has no or limited value. Right now though, I feel that she still has value because I haven't given up on her.

I also feel the need to clarify that this gal is probably the #2 mare in my mare pasture (4 mares, #1 is 15.2hh TB). She is very good with ALL the beasties - mares, geldings, horses, ponies. I have never seen her get overly pushy or mix it up with any of the horses. She is also very good with people. She has never acted in an inappropriate way. She stands for the farrier & vet (hand held of course), and after a few lessons on personal space has that down pretty well too. She leads very nicely. (of course this standing & leading is when she's not having a meltdown) She is not mean and seems to really enjoy human company. Her attitude toward people and beasties is one of the things that gives me hope.

malarkey
Nov. 1, 2003, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mbp:
Anyway - good luck finding the right option. Whether it is Parelli, more turnout, a donkey (or a nice cranky broodmare) to tie to the neck , whatever is the right thing, I bet there is SOME RIGHT THING. You'll sort through the suggestions, consider the mare, and we'll jingle for the right thing to come your way - and I bet it will happen. There are lots of different options - she is only 3, you haven't had her that long- too early to give up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Right on! I think mbp is absolutely right here. It might take some experiementing to find that ONE THING that's gonna work, but stick it out, she's really young and you shouldn't give up yet.

here's the in-a-nutshell history of my own alpha mare: bought her as a 4 yr old, she'd been under saddle for a few months. hadn't been handled much or at all as a youngster. was alpha mare in a pasture with 3 other broodmares. just hacking her, taking lessons from a h/j trainer. she seems happy. moved her to a barn closer to home. put her in training with a dressage trainer. a very good German born and trained Bereiter dressage trainer ;-) Mare starts out ok but eventually starts showing resentment. starts throwing tantrums. escalates the tantrums to the point where one day she won't even let the trainer get on. yippee we have learned to rear. We decide to take a break, she's obviously not with this program. All kinds of advice, put her on drugs, send her to a cowboy who will throw her down and sit on her neck, etc. I just trail ride her for a couple of months hoping like hell she'll forget the battles she won. (yeah, right!) enter a chance to take lessons from an retired h/j trainer. he loves figuring out difficult horses. After some initial trial and error, 3 months later she's a different horse. we just kept trying different things and it seems we've hit on something that's finally working for her. And that's exactly how he put it one day when I lamented to him that I didn't think I had what it took to bring this mare along. he assured me that I did, and that we had to find THAT ONE THING...

*member of the connemara clique and the adults riding ponies clique*

deltawave
Nov. 1, 2003, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suzss:
She is also very good with people. She has never acted in an inappropriate way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, she has.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> She stands for the farrier & vet (hand held of course), and after a few lessons on personal space has that down pretty well too. She leads very nicely. (of course this standing & leading is when she's not having a meltdown) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's three different excuses you've made for her for three different misbehaviors.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Her attitude toward people and beasties is one of the things that gives me hope.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Suzss, please don't take this wrong, but your attitude of making excuses for her is a red flag...it's wonderful you have a positive attitude about her potential, and the horse who truly can't be taught its manners is probably quite rare after all, but BEWARE the trap of loving her so much and thinking so much of her that you find ways to explain away her terrible manners, no matter how rare they are.

If my kid robs a bank once or twice a year, but at all other times he's a perfect gentleman and gets good grades, I've still screwed up somewhere! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!

findeight
Nov. 1, 2003, 01:52 PM
OK, I didn't read anything past the initial post here..forgive me if I repeat. But I didn't need to read further to give my opinion.

Some horses just mature slower then others and if this is some kind of WB that goes double..I mean...you aren't getting a 28 month old ready for the Derby here. This is a personal horse...right?
So turn it out as recommended and start back in the spring. Let it mature more.

HOWEVER..I see a yellow light in your statement it doesn't want to do what it doesn't want to do and won't tie???

There's a winter project for you. Whatever system or "whispering" you use this one has got to learn to accept pressure and restricting-like in being tied-or no trainer can teach it to accept the pressure and restriction of a rider.

As I see it, this trainer was right in sending it home. BUT these things are easy to teach to prepare to send it back and there are a ton of resources..John Lyons would be my choice, videos, tapes or auditing a clinic.

Bottom line is that horses will not accept something from a rider they won't accept from the ground-teach this one acceptance from the ground(like tying) before you send it back.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

x
Nov. 1, 2003, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horselesswonder:
Not to hijack the thread, but anyone out there seen horses other than WB's throw themselves to the ground? Just curious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Morgan. Didn't wan to work or stand to be groomed or anything else. Would throw itself on ground. And then stay there.

findeight
Nov. 1, 2003, 02:13 PM
Have had most breeds throw themselves on the ground...result of getting horses others had abused or skipped steps with..plus one or two that were truely girthy and could not stand any pressure around the middle...nothing like being inches away from one throwing itself over backwords in the crossties http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Even that can be overcome with COMMON SENSE and TIME. Tech things right in the first place or be prepared to spend TRIPLE the time unteaching and reteaching...but it CAN be retaught.
So be willing to take the time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

x
Nov. 1, 2003, 02:20 PM
I have read through this thread, and have the following comments to make from a trainers point-of-view:

First, I, too, would probably send you horse home. You mention you and the trainer being concerned about her getting hurt, and her being rather valuable. But you also mention all of her problem behaviours. From my standpoint, this horse is one that needs to be 'put in her place' so to speak. However, this may necessitate her risking injury--but from my standpoint, if I owned the horse, it would be either learn so I can be safe, or get rid of horse. If it were a client's horse, I would not be comfortable using the methods that need to be used. So, I would send her home. I like the sounds of your trainer very much; my guess is that if he owned the horse, he'd find a way to get the job done, but isn't willing to risk your horse to do it. I myself have been in that situation many, many times. When I don't own said horse, I usually refer them to another trainer or send them home. When I do own the horse, I usually deal with it. In my case, if the horse didn't tie, I would tie it with an unbreakable halter, and let it fight it out...perhaps using an inner tube. If that didn't do it, I would go to a rope behind the forelegs. I would be standing there to cut it free if it got too tangled, but I would basically let it be. Alternatively, I might stake it out as a start to teaching it to tie...use an unbreakable nylon halter fitted tight enough so it couldn't slip it, drive a heavy iron bar into the ground, and stake horse with a 20' heavy rope...unfortunately, the horse may get some rope burns, but usually it is the start of the horse learning to tie. And the burns usually heal. Then we progress. Years ago we acquired a 6 year old we didn't know didn't tie...and tied him...and he sat back fighting. The horse was bad enough there was no way we were going to get near enough to it to untie it...so we left it. The horse fought all night long...and by morning tied. There was a definate danger that the horse was going to get hurt; but in this horse's instance we determined that our safety was more important--this horse had alot to learn as he would also rear and flip over. Tougher methods had to be used, but the horse survived and became a useful citizen. Again, I had a WB that was similar; again, we tied her so she had to stay tied. She also learned. Another time I had morgan that would tie fine when she wanted to...but when she didn't she'd throw herself on the ground. We dealt with it by not untieing her, and by going and getting a switch and using on her to get her to stand again (she'd be laying there refusing to get up with her ears pinned). Not only did she not get turned loose, she wasn't allowed to stay lying down, either. She eventually broke out to be a kids horse. Another older horse would flip himself under saddle on purpose...this one we held down and didn't let get up for a bit...it was the start of reform.
The common denominator with these horses is that they were very dominant/didn't want anything to do with any one else's idea. For all of them, I needed to get to the point where I didn't care if they hurt themselves or killed themselves, they were going to learn--and I could only get to this point if I owned them; too much risk with someone else's horse. For me, they were useless unless I could do something with them. Hence, my attitude. But it is amazing what horses will pick up on; I remember one very good jumper that I owned that was very, very difficult...he'd pick a fight if possible. At one show I approached him with the attitude of "you ****, I'll bury you here right now if you don't behave". Best horse show I ever rode that horse at...he apparently knew that I was not in the mood to take anything from him, and went in and performed beautifully, and I didn't have to do anything! Nice, easy ride. But again, he knew that I wasn't taking anything from him, and didn't offer any trouble. However, if I got on this horse with the idea of having a nice, pleasant ride...it wasn't happening. If I got on him with an attitude, he was an angel. For him, it wasn't anything I did...it was only my attitude that he'd pick up on.

Again, I am going to agree with the person who said she should have learned to tie at a much younger age. In fact, it is going to be very, very difficult to teach a horse at this age to do that. Warmbloods, IMO, go through a very, very tough stage as three-year-olds when they are just plain testy. If I had owned her, she would have been taught to tie, longe, and ground drive as a yearling. She would have worn a saddle and a bridle. She would have learned when she was smaller that she needed to work. She probably would have been backed as a two year old. This does not mean that she would have been over worked or endangered her bones/growth in any way. You can ground drive at a walk on a straight line, down the trails, in the ring, on the road. You can do very light (w/t) longing with a youngster. Carrying a bit or saddle is not going to harm them. But hindsight is 50/50.

One thing that I did see work well for an older unhandled warmblood that was a bit tough was clicker training. This might be an option.

Anyhow, good luck. Be ware lest this mare is too smart. I would suggest trying another trainer...and perhaps giving her a little bit of a break (one or two months) so that hopefully she'll chill out/forget some of her 'issues'.

Celtic Witch
Nov. 1, 2003, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x:
However, this may necessitate her risking injury--but from my standpoint, if I owned the horse, it would be either learn so I can be safe, or get rid of horse. If it were a client's horse, I would not be comfortable using the methods that need to be used.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree. I had a gelding in two summers ago who's owner did nothing but make excuses for his behaviour. Because he was good most of the time, the one fit that resulted in her shattered ankle was not his fault. Because he only bit when you had your back turned, it was not his fault. Because he only double barreled you when he was not tied, it was not his fault. And he also did not tie, but would break the rope and throw himself to the ground to do it if need be.

So, we went everywhere with a dressage whip and I made good use of the eyes in the back of my head. Discipline was swift and definitely severe (yup, I left welts) but we went straight back to normal with no grudges held but we still hadn't a major breakthrough. It had got to the point where this horse either had to accept his place or be shot, and the owner's husband agreed. After several polite tries to teach him to tie that were fruitless, I bought a brand new thick nylon headcollar and ropes used to handle bulls. He was tied to a tree with a butt rope and left there. I went about my business on the yard and ignored him, but stayed where I could see him and get there fast if need be.

He pulled, he reared, he bashed his head against the tree and he threw himself to the ground. I wish I had a photo of the look on his face when the ropes didn't give. After about 30 seconds of shock, he got up and he stood there. Never had a problem with that again.

That's the most severe case I have ever dealt with, but the filly's antics sound the same and that exactly what I would if she were mine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If I had owned her, she would have been taught to tie, longe, and ground drive as a yearling. She would have worn a saddle and a bridle. She would have learned when she was smaller that she needed to work. She probably would have been backed as a two year old. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are a trainer after my heart! This is what I do with them all and after breaking in at 2, they are turned away for 18 -24 months. I'd much rather deal with the issues while they're small.

Personally, I prefer an unhandled 4 year old to one that has been hand raised. Ten times easier to deal with as they do not come with baggage from a previous owner!

Susie

Hidden Hill Farm
Nov. 1, 2003, 03:24 PM
Wow, this is great, I can just sit back and let x and Celtic Witch say everything I was thinking.

I will add that my husband and I have seen several horses with permanent neck injuries/ chiropractic problems from teaching horses to tie, and there were horses that seemed, just not quite right again... It is SOOOOO much better to teach them when they are small.
I like the idea of the butt rope and of course a well fitting halter that won't slip back.

We have many breaking horses of our own, and once in a blue moon we will still start one for someone else, but the condition is, if they're tough, they go straight to the cowboy.

findeight
Nov. 1, 2003, 04:28 PM
I was taught and repeatedly used a belly rope for spoiled brat/pushy or abused types.

Basically it's a lasso draped around the withers with the knot below the belly and the rope coming out between the forelegs and threaded thru the halter chin ring.
The horse is tied well above it's head so that when it sits back, pressure is applied evenly around the barrel and a secondary pressure from the chin ring helps hold the head down.
Nothing hurts the horse but they cannot leap backwards and break the ropes and tying them high defeats the flipping over crap.

WARNING..THIS IS BEST DONE BY QUALIFIED PROS. DO NOT ATTEMPT AT HOME.

I'm not kidding about this. It won't hurt and quickly teaches the concept of pressure and release/reward..but if you don't have personal experience with it? Leave it to a pro.

Best old "cowboy" tradition leaves it tied high for several hours...or all day..as it learns to accept and be patient-and that is the best lesson a horse can ever learn.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Smithereens
Nov. 1, 2003, 04:45 PM
We used the "belly rope" technique that Findeight spoke of on the mare I posted about earlier. We could not get her on a trailer with any other other method and the belly rope worked perfectly! Much less fighting then other methods, and the mare understood it after just a few seconds! Of course my trainer was the one who used this techinque, and I'm sure it could get nasty if an unexperienced person tried it themselves.

Small Change
Nov. 1, 2003, 05:43 PM
We have an ISH filly that refused to stand tied once she realized her own size as a 3 year old. (Prior to this, she tied quite well.) Around her third birthday, the person we had doing stalls cross tied her and then whacked her with a fork (plastic tines, but still...) because she was fussing. The filly understandably got very upset, flew backwards, broke the cross ties and then fell on the floor. No, the person is not with us anymore.

This incident made the filly realize her own size, and she started snapping any sort of tie that was used to hold her, be it cross ties, lead shanks, whatever. Yes, it started because she was scared, but then it became a habit of sorts.

What worked for her was to use a draught horse tie. It is a loop of sturdy, soft rope that goes just behind the halter and runs through the chin ring of the halter. The horse is tied with two ropes: the loop around the neck and another lead that it attached to the halter. The idea is that when the horse pulls back, the halter rope says "no" and the neck rope enforces it. The neck rope is designed to slacken off very easily too, as soon as the horse gives.

This was the answer for this filly. She fought it once or twice, and then stood very well. We began leaving the neck rope looser and looser, then progressed to just having a "necklace" on her as a reminder. A year later, you can tie her to anything without worrying. (Yes, a horse can hurt themselves with a neck rope, but this filly was at the point where she would hurt either herself or people if she wasn't fixed. There was really nothing to lose by trying.)

It is definately not the answer for every horse, and we did it because she was our filly. It was also the suggestion of someone who has had much, much, much more experience with horses than I will ever have. Seriously, the man has two or three lifetimes of knowledge when it comes to horses. He could have been Monty Roberts, John Lyons or Ponyboy way back before any of them were even gleams in their mummy's eyes. He just didn't market himself and chose to start his own horses instead of everyone else's.

Any of the more "extreme" techniques are not something that I would ever attempt without the experience of someone much wiser than myself as a guide. I guess the thing to keep in mind though is that a horse sometimes needs to have things done in order to make them useful. A gorgeous, well bred horse that becomes dangerous when it doesn't agree with people is worth far, far less than the ugly, backyard pony that aims to please. Sometimes a horse's "epiphany" isn't pretty, but if that is what it takes to make them see the light... it's better than ending up in a can or having a rotten life being passed from person to person who tries to fix them.

Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping -Julius Hare

BeastieSlave
Nov. 1, 2003, 05:51 PM
O.K. we're back home, and I think this is going to be a long post.

Thank you all for continuing to post the great replys!

deltawave-
I feel I need to defend my excuses (yes I know they are excuses). The point I was trying to make is that the young mare is not in any way acting out TOWARD people. Even the trainer admits that she does not have a mean bone in her body. In a way I think it would be easier if she did. Yes, she is a spoiled brat, but she is not directing agression towards people or horses. I also realize that even though it's not her intent, her behavior is going to hurt someone if it's not fixed. So many of the posts mention experiences with horses that bite or act badly being led, etc. This is not the case here.

smallchange- Tell me more about the neck rope. My farrier suggested a haystring used in a similar way, but I know that it would break immediately. His idea was that the haystring would give that initial resistance and hopefully slow her going back onto the leadrope. I think your rope sounds like it may be more effective.

Went to pick up the girl. She had lost weight in the week at the trainer's. She seemed a bit antsey.
I asked the trainer about hobbles, and he said he'd been thinking about it too, so we gave it a try. She was much better with them than either of us expected, and gave in pretty quickly.
Got her ready and packed, went to the trailer and things were fine. We had spent time training to load, and she's doing well considering her issues with being told what to do. She loaded right up, but got her legs tangled and backed off. O.K., we try again. She's staying calm, but not so sure, so she comes off again. We have to have an adjustment when she tests my resolve. The trainer decides that he might need to give me a hand. They then proceded to 'go round' for 30 minutes or so. She got very worked up, and I think he was very close to losing his cool. She did load, but it wasn't pretty, and she was all in a lather. I really like this trainer, and I don't think that he has abused this horse, but I can see they don't do well together. This wasn't the first time I watched him work with her, but it was the first time their personal conflict showed so much. I know that I did a better job loading her, and I hope today wasn't a setback http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I think that his willingness to fight with her may be their problem. I don't know what I'll be able to accomplish by trying to avoid fights, but that may be the key. I know whatever I do with her, I'll have to be very firm and consistant. It just looks like I'll be wise to choose my battles with this gal.

The belly rope is interesting to me... I wish I had someone to help me try that.

So, now she's back at home and very glad. She had the sweat rinsed off and had a good roll in the pasture. She ran around a bit and settled in nicely. Maybe we'll go for a walk tomorrow http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JustJump
Nov. 1, 2003, 06:56 PM
Um--One of a horse's strongest instincts is to flee when caught. Once panic sets in, there aren't too many forces on earth that can compete. You know, I'm trying to understand just what the problem is here...you have a horse that leads, is good to work around, does stand tied, but only when someone is with her...otherwise she gets antsy and eventually goes ballistic? What is the overwhelming need for this horse to BE tied without anyone around?

I once looked after a jumper that couldn't be tied. He'd break a crosstie, a halter, snap a rope. Our solution was that we didn't tie him. We could crosstie him in a washstall, or anywhere where his butt would hit a wall before he reached the "end of his rope." Even then, we never just walked away and left him. If he was tied, it was so we could work on him. If we weren't working on him, he was in his stall or out in the paddock. It would never have occured to us that he'd get tied to be shod--we simply held him for the farrier.

By not insisting on winning this one battle (we honestly didn't think it was worth the effort), we were able to work with this horse productively in all other areas of training. He turned out to be a really, really good jumper. But if we had become fixated on MAKING him tie, he might have just checked out on us.

Really, MUST she tie? There's a lot more to life...

Small Change
Nov. 1, 2003, 07:16 PM
Essentially, the neck rope is a long piece (a foot or two longer than a regular lead line) of soft cotton rope. You make a large loop in one end, big enough to fit your hand through easily. Sometimes lining the loop with something slippery like duct tape will make the rope slip through the loop more easily when the horse stops resisting.

The unlooped end of the rope is threaded through the loop, making a noose of sorts. This big loop is put over the horse's head, just behind the halter. The small loop and the loose end are at the bottom of the big loop, so they are between the jaw bones. The loose end of the rope is threaded through the chin ring of the halter so that it hangs from the halter the same way a normal lead rope would.

A regular lead rope is also clipped onto the chin ring. You can either tie both ropes to your tie post or ring, or just tie one. If you only tie the lead rope, you can control, to some extent, how much of an effect the neck rope will have. If you only tie the neck rope, you control when the halter slackens off.

We tied the filly in her stall so that she wouldn't have a lot of space to get too riled up in. There are tie rings in our stalls, but we used one of the big supporting posts next to the stall door. This was because none of us wanted to be in the stall when the horse realized she was tied. By using the post at the front, we could thread the ropes around the post, close the door and then tie her with quick release knots. We have big, sturdy stall walls and big sturdy doors that the horses can budge if they hit them. (A less sturdy barn can be taken apart by a very upset horse, so decide how you are best off. This whole thing will also work on a post outdoors or a big tree.) We also had a knife handy in case she really got into trouble.

The senario played out as follows: We tied her and backed off to the point that she knew she was tied, but we could get to her quickly if things turned sour. As soon as she saw that she was tied, she proceded to sit back on the lead line. This was standard operating procedure for her; she usually just sat and pulled until something gave. When this didn't work and she felt the neck rope tighten, she threw the biggest fit of her life. It involved her throwing all her weight back onto the neck rope, then leaping forward and repeating. She tried rearing, striking, flinging herself sideways, the works. After about five minutes of a royal tantrum, she stood still and we made a big fuss. We made sure that she was praised while she was still tied so that she didn't associate the praise with being let off the ropes, but rather with standing still. We then untied her and turned her out for the night.

This was repeated the next day, and she didn't fight nearly as much. The most important thing was to not untie her while she was fighting, but to let her sort it out herself. Of course, if she had gotten into real trouble, we would have done something, but most horses are smart enough to go that far.

Good luck with her. Sometimes winning one battle is enough to get the ball rolling and she will come around completely. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping -Julius Hare

J4J
Nov. 1, 2003, 07:28 PM
i jumped into the thread late, but i wanted to say that i have never seen natural horsemanship (pat parelli, etc.) not work. I wouldn't recommend it for riding, but for ground manners and connection with your horse it is awesome!
good luck
your horse will be fine i'm sure!

J4J
Nov. 1, 2003, 07:35 PM
oh i forgot to say one other thing, about tying
a cowboy that i know has this great method of tying them up to a tree limb, or equivalent of something high above their head. Then, they can't pull back becuase there is nothing to pull against. leave her tyed up for a while (watching her of course) and build it up until eventually she is fine tying for hours.
i would suggest maybe looking into this idea, maybe talk to a few cowboys and see if anyone knows about the idea

x
Nov. 2, 2003, 05:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jump for Joy!:
oh i forgot to say one other thing, about tying
a cowboy that i know has this great method of tying them up to a tree limb, or equivalent of something high above their head. Then, they can't pull back becuase there is nothing to pull against. leave her tyed up for a while (watching her of course) and build it up until eventually she is fine tying for hours.
i would suggest maybe looking into this idea, maybe talk to a few cowboys and see if anyone knows about the idea<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The interesting thing about this idea is that it was described way back in ancient times by the author Xenophon in "On Horsemanship"!

JustJump
Nov. 2, 2003, 06:07 AM
Again folks, I ask...

Does any horse who is not a polo pony desperately NEED to be tied for extended periods?

Is all the trauma over this one thing worth the effort, provided, of course that in all other areas of training, things are OK?

SaudiHunter
Nov. 2, 2003, 06:25 AM
Hi Suz,

I respect your trainer for being honest with you. It sounds like he and your filly are having personality clashes...I don't know how busy he is, or how many clients he has, but it is possible that he might not have the extra time and patience available it will take to educate your filly. I would suggest trying someone who has the same approach that you and he have to training. Maybe someone who is still building a name for him/herself, who will take your filly on with the understanding that she needs more time. Could it be that your trainer has a system that your filly doesn't fit into...like a square peg/round hole sort of thing..?

Anyway, best of luck...and don't give up.

"What Jesus fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
-Life of Brian

ShowJumps
Nov. 2, 2003, 06:40 AM
There are a lot of good replies. One important note: When trying any of these tying solutions make sure you have a sharp pocket knife handy. Even emergency release ties can get tangled with a panicked horse. The knife could end up saving your horse.

You bought WHAT?! ~ Mr. ShowJumps
Once again a member of the Arab clique... It's good to be back!

MeanderCreek
Nov. 2, 2003, 06:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustJump:
Again folks, I ask...

Does any horse who is not a polo pony desperately NEED to be tied for extended periods?

Is all the trauma over this one thing worth the effort, provided, of course that in all other areas of training, things are OK?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I personally believe that yes, every horse MUST TIE and tie well among other things you probably wouldn't insist on. What if you were way out back riding and the one person you were with fell and was seriously injured. I'd like to know that the horses can be tied to a tree and left while the human is being tended to and if necessary I can come back later to get them. Its much easier than trying to hunt them down after they've pulled back and gotten loose while you were dealing with a real emergency.

I also believe in working on a rope, and hobbling and all that good stuff that could potentially injure the big expensive horsie. A little rope burn that I might leave is nothing compared to what can happen if she gets hung up somewhere and chooses to fight rather than give to the pressure.

I also love findeights belly rope - my uncle taught me to use that many years ago and its taught a few confirmed pullers to stand tied for me.

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

ShowJumps
Nov. 2, 2003, 06:53 AM
Just Jump -
I agree if a horse does his job and is handles well then one thing like tying isn't a issue. This is not the case here.
Not wanting to be tied is only a symptom of the actual problem. The mare throws tantrums when she decides her work time is up. Teaching her to tie will help teach her to respect the wishes of her humans. It's an abstract concept but one that works well with horses.

You bought WHAT?! ~ Mr. ShowJumps
Once again a member of the Arab clique... It's good to be back!

[This message was edited by ShowJumps on Nov. 02, 2003 at 10:05 AM.]

arnika
Nov. 2, 2003, 07:14 AM
Just jump, I also agree with Meandercreek. I won't say that I would never make an exception for an individual horse, but in general if a horse doesn't tie it rules out a lot of lifetime options. Such as trail-riding, pony-clubbing, schooling shows of all kinds where there may not be permanent stalling, etc.(add your choice). If suzss plans to keep her for life no matter what, then it's not such an issue.

I can't really add any other suggestions, all the ones mentioned have merit, just depends on your opinion and the degree you're willing to put up with the issues. My willingness to put up with bad behavior gets less as I find the sooner it's dealt with in a permanent manner, the better and easier the training goes.

Suzss, good luck. I do have a friend (respected breeder/judge) who uses a trainer outside of Ocala for her young stock. Old-fashioned trainer, firm but not mean, does a very nice job teaching discipline with no abuse. PT or email me if you want me to get the name/number.

Terry

Hidden Hill Farm
Nov. 2, 2003, 07:25 AM
Many years ago, we had a horse that didn't tie. He was wonderful in all other aspects, but didn't tie or cross tie for that matter.
He would panic!!! This was not bad behavior, but sheer panic. As I said, he would drop his head and "ground tie" if you dropped the lead rope, but no cross ties, and no way would he be tied to an object of any kind!!


We were always careful at horse shows. Until once day I came in at 4 am to see that the braider had done him first instead of last as I requested and he was standing in the corner SHAKING with the whole section of bent bar panels at his feet!!!! I wondered how long had he fought with the bar panels before they came flying at him!!!???

He was scraped up, and I'm sure his neck was mighty sore, and he was a mental mess for a while.

The horse was wonderful on the ground, in the ring, on the trails....but if someone had just taken the time when he was young to teach him how to tie properly, we never would have had this problem.

SO, no, the horse doesn't absolutely have to learn how to tie, but it makes life a lot easier.

Policy of Truth
Nov. 2, 2003, 08:46 AM
The one thing that concerns me in tying a really resistant horse, is it may do long-term and even permanent dammage to their vertebrae/muscles.

I would turn her out in a band of mares...I believe other horses can get the point across to her better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Invite
Nov. 2, 2003, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustJump:
Again folks, I ask...

Does any horse who is not a polo pony desperately NEED to be tied for extended periods?

Is all the trauma over this one thing worth the effort, provided, of course that in all other areas of training, things are OK?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with Justjump.

My friend trained a racehorse who would not tie. He got the horse as a two year old and he was still just a little bit of a thing. Actually, he never grew beyond pony size. My friend trained this horse to ground tie. It was really pretty cool. You'd just walk to his stall door, say "David, get to the front." and this horse would stand right in the door while you groomed and tacked him.

I think some horses get claustrophobic being tied. I would teach the mare to ground tie and maybe eventually, she will be able to tie. If she can't ever tie, but will stand and behave for grooming, etc., it is not the end of the world.

There are some battles you have to win, but some aren't worth the fight. Don't pick fights you cannot win. Decide what is important to you.

I had a severly head shy mare and I spent 5 years building the bridle on her. She eventually got over the head shyness and could be bridled like a normal horse. Some people wouldn't put up with this, but it wasn't a big deal to me. I chose to be patient and slowly work through the problem rather than hobbling her and chaining her to a metal pole cemented into the ground and forcing her to let me touch her ears. The vet (no longer my vet)actually suggested I do this and said the worst that would happen is the mare would break her neck or her back http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

After the bad trailer loading experience with the trainer, I would definitely do some major loading practice. Don't wait until you need to take her somewhere....

Celtic Witch
Nov. 2, 2003, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MeanderCreek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustJump:
Again folks, I ask...

Does any horse who is not a polo pony desperately NEED to be tied for extended periods?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also believe in working on a rope, and hobbling and all that good stuff that could potentially injure the big expensive horsie. A little rope burn that I might leave is nothing compared to what can happen if she gets hung up somewhere and chooses to fight rather than give to the pressure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. There are plenty of things every horse should know that are not very useful in every day life. But you will be eternally grateful the day you need them!

All of my horses learn to tie politely for extended periods. All of my horses hobble. All of my horses can be mounted from either side. All of my horses can get tangled in a rope without panicking among many other dangerous situations. My stallion can be told "away to me" while breeding a mare and he will dismount and come to my side immediately. All of my horses give in to pressure.

I purposely put them in such situations in a controlled environment so that I know that when I need it, the manners will be there. It takes a lot of stress out of handling a horse.

No, I do not need such behaviours on a daily basis, but when my mare became tangled in electric tape while camping at the beach, I was grateful she knew not to panick. And this was 30' odd feet of live tape, wrapped around all her legs and neck and continually shocking her. Thanks to my teaching her to stand perfectly still when told "stand!" and purposely allowing her to get tangled in a soft rope at home, Izzie did not fight and stood relatively relaxed, allowing me and my friend to cut her out without putting ourselves in mortal danger. The mare survived with only a few surface wounds and a new respect for electric fence!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Invite:
I had a severly head shy mare and I spent 5 years building the bridle on her. She eventually got over the head shyness and could be bridled like a normal horse. Some people wouldn't put up with this, but it wasn't a big deal to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is an enormous difference between a horse who is head shy and a 3 year old who has learned to throw a temper tantrum when she doesn't feel like behaving.

Cheers,
Susie

M. O'Connor
Nov. 2, 2003, 12:04 PM
Pretty inflexible attitudes here. "ALL" my horses do this, that, and the other thing, and so forth...

Well, I owned a horse that didn't tie, except in a wash stall, and even then, he wasn't exactly thrilled about it. I used the loose rope wrapped around the cross ties method, so that if he pulled back he didn't take the barn with him. I got my "stuff" out in advance...tacked him up without leaving his side, and things were fine. He had issues with confinement, pure and simple. Hated being in a trailer, hated being in a stall, except at shows, where he didn't seem to mind being surrounded on all 4 sides by other horses. But especially, he didn't like to be tied. Now I suppose, if I measure success by reading this thread, I should consider myself a failure and I should consider him a failure because he didn't tie--but then again, that wasn't his job. His job was to jump, and jump he did. He was a great, great A/O jumper and open speed horse; in todays show world, he probably would have been someone's Grand Prix horse. Trail riding? Yes, I guess it would have been handy to be able to tie him in the circumstances described above, but I really think there are SOME horses that would suck at trail riding, and they shouldn't go trail riding. Some horses suck at showing, and shouldn't show. Some horses suck at being tied, so...don't tie 'em.

The way I read it, it seems that the owner is SAYING that the horse hasn't got issues with anything BUT tying. If this is true, and speaking from experience, I say live with it, and work around it if the horse is "worth" the effort. Just my 2cents.

Having said that, many situations aren't suitable for horses that don't "conform" to certain behavior standards, ie barns with small kids around shouldn't be have a nasty horse around; horses that can't stand to be alone shouldn't live in a barn with only one other horse or be left alone while the other one works. What can be handled depends on the severity of the situation and the experience of the people responsible for handling the horse.

MCL

BeastieSlave
Nov. 2, 2003, 01:47 PM
I can't thank you all enough for continuing to contribute to this! The stories and different experiences are great, I don't have access to nearly as much support at home http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Arnika- thanks I'll contact you. I believe we spoke at the FLA HAN inspection. I had the very big chestnut mare. She wasn't a monster there (please tell everyone!)and I half expect bad things from young horses at stressful outings like that.

I've spent 2 'sessions' with my gal today, and this is how it's going:
She is obviously more relaxed and glad to be home. This a.m. while she was eating, I just messed with her in the stall. I brushed her, picked feet, medicated her boo boos, even pulled some mane. She wasn't tied, and she put up with everything very well. She stood nicely and moved over when I asked.
After I turned the other girls out, I led her out into the small paddock and put her through her paces being led. I walked, trotted, halted, moved left & right, etc. I can say for my trainer that she is very attuned to where you are/where she should be when being led. After working in the paddock, I took her into the pasture where her friends were and we did more of the same. I was very pleased with how her attention stayed on me. I did talk to her constantly and praise her liberally. When I was through, I just let her go and she wandered off.
I went back to the farm later with my daughter to watch her ride. I caught the big girl again and let her stand in the stall while my kid groomed and tacked up. Then we both took our beasties out to the ring. I put her through her paces again while the kid warmed up, and she was cool and calm like in the a.m. I was prepared for her to get a bit excited when the other mare trotted or cantered by. I can't say she didn't notice, but it wasn't an issue. She stood quietly while I watched my daughter jump, and then we took a walk on the farm road that goes around the pastures. As we walked by, the beasties in the pasture came running and calling up to the fence. We could see them through the trees, but she still behaved well.

I guess I wanted to spend some time focusing on her state of mind today. I wanted to push her a bit, but not too much. I didn't want to pick a fight or put her in a position where she was uncomfortable, but I wanted to see how she was at home, but in new situations. I was pleased, and I'll start working toward ground driving her soon. She understands leading. I'm going to hobble her some more too.

As for needing to tie. I do feel that it is important for a horse to tie. I'm willing to put in some time and energy into making it happen, but it needs to happen at some point in the not-too-distant future. We like to trail ride, and MeanderCreek spells out the reasons for horses to tie there. We also go to a bunch of local shows (especially with the green beans) and stalls aren't usually available. Sure, my other beasties will stand on the trailer, and maybe she will too, but I don't want that to be the only way for her to be contained at a show. I've had visions of her hobbled at the trailer at shows http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I've got a long way to go before I have to worry about her at shows! I want her to stand tied in the washrack. She has no respect for crossties, and its a real pain to wash a horse and hold the leadrope http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif I guess I can't imagine what it would be like if she turns out to be an otherwise super horse that just won't tie. Maybe it'll be something I could live with.... I'd rather not have to.
My trainer felt that her resistance to tieing was a part of her resistance to being told what to do in general, and that it would be a real problem when riding. I din't see any problems today, and I did alot of stopping and turning to and away from me, etc. to see if that would show up. I'll keep on the lookout. I'm so not niave that I think he's totally wrong. I am thinking that they had issues that we might not have.

SO, hope springs eternal http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Robby Johnson
Nov. 2, 2003, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suzss:
She has no respect for crossties, and its a real pain to wash a horse and hold the leadrope http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's for sure! Rhodey is great in cross-ties, and will stand tie-tied, but he's a bitch to wash in anything other than a proper wash rack! So definitely teach them to stand tied, then you only have 1/2 of a battle if you're forced to bathe them in an open environment!

Robby

Take me to the river, drop me in the water
http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

MistyBlue
Nov. 2, 2003, 05:25 PM
Not sure if this was mentioned or not, and might not work with a horse that tends to be spooky...but I used an old timer's 'trick' decades ago with my first horse who HATED being tied. She didn't spook, she was mad for being tied. She would pull back to the end of her lead or tie, then yank her head hard and quick to break the lead or ties and just saunter off. No fit, no hysterics, just a calm methodical break away. I went through more quick release snaps and break away halters, LOL!
Anywho, what I did:
I would halter my mare and lead her to the ties. On each side of her halter I had attached a longe line instead of ties or leads. The ends of both longe lines would be threaded through the cross tie loops, then laid out along the sides of the aisles full length behind the horse. The ends of the longe lines would then be attached to a bale of hay each sitting against the aisle (or stall) walls a good length behind my mare. She'd stand for about 2-3 minutes while I groomed and fussed over her, then start backing up to find the taughtness in the leads. She'd be able to back up, but dragging the bales gets heavy. I'd walk her forward again, no reaction from me. I didn't want her to associate ME with any corrections. She's back again faster and throwing her head back quick. She'd only drag those bales more, and couldn't get enough oomph for a hard head throw from the small bales, but the bales gave enough for the break away part of the halter to not break. She was only fighting herself. When she finally pitched enough of a hissy fit to just try running backwards...she caught sight of the two bales of hay 'running' up behind her and would jump forward back into position. I used this method every day for about 2 weeks, then never had a problem with ties again afterwards. That mare always assumed the ties were smarter than her and never gave anyone a hard time tying again.

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
80's Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

Celtic Witch
Nov. 2, 2003, 07:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
Pretty inflexible attitudes here. "ALL" my horses do this, that, and the other thing, and so forth...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am glad that worked for you, but that's more daily effort than I am willing to put in for a horse. I would have preferred to spend the time allowing the horse to learn that small spaces are not scary and that tying will not kill him.

But whatever floats your boat; if you were happy with your horse, fabulous. That is all anyone can ask for. Personally, aside from one extreme rescue, I will not have a horse who does not have manners. I may not be a BNT, but I am a good remedial trainer and I enjoy it.
As such, my own horses are my best advertising.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The way I read it, it seems that the owner is SAYING that the horse hasn't got issues with anything BUT tying. If this is true, and speaking from experience, I say live with it, and work around it if the horse is "worth" the effort. Just my 2cents.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is an enormous issue in a 3 year old just being started. Behaviour on the ground is going to reflect upon behaviour under saddle. As many of us have pointed out, such backwards behaviour in a 3 year old is almost always a red flag of things to come and as such, needs to be nipped in the bud.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by suzss:
I guess I wanted to spend some time focusing on her state of mind today. I wanted to push her a bit, but not too much. I didn't want to pick a fight or put her in a position where she was uncomfortable, but I wanted to see how she was at home, but in new situations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fabulous! I meant to mention this earlier though I think someone else has. Your girl may have just been really overwhelmed and might need another year to grow up. I would play with her lots and start to tie her soon. I would initially just do it for 2 or 3 minutes and then put her away, adding minutes on each week until she stood politely. I would also probably use a butt or belly rope just in case she pulled back. My rule of thumb is never expect bad behaviour, but always be prepared for it.

Cheers,
Susie

SBT
Nov. 2, 2003, 08:58 PM
Sometimes you just have to be "mean" to get your point across. I LOVE the tree/belly rope idea! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

This horse may be a warmblood, and she may be only 3, but I'm sorry...she MUST tie. There are so many situations in which a horse needs to be tied, and trying to have someone around all the time is just unreasonable, IMO. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif It also reinforces her notion that she should never be left alone.

My new horse, a young TB, came with a few behavioral issues. One of them being that he would not stand on crossties. He'd be fine, then start walking around, pulling back, etc. My solution? I walked away.

Literally. I began putting him on crossties and leaving him there. Not for long, and I always stayed within earshot. If he danced around while I was working on him, I absolutely ignored his behavior and continued brushing/tacking up/whatever, on the move. He learned that dancing around changes NOTHING. He rarely does it anymore, and when he does, he gets NO REACTION from me, other than a verbal warning as I continue whatever I'm doing.

He was also very pushy in general, and would drag me all over the place. My solution was to make him stop and back up. Eventually he learned that when I stop, he stops...or he takes 5 steps backwards, AWAY from where he wants to go. In terms of personal space, he wasn't very good there either. He's been greatly improving, but just last week he actually rammed into me as I cleaned out his stall. I'm sure he didn't mean to, but he certainly wasn't being careful. I whalloped him once, hard, and that was it...back to cleaning as if nothing happened. He sulked for awhile, but he got over it. Today he was absolutely stellar with his stall manners, waiting for me to finish a spot instead of shoving past me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I guess my point is that sometimes you have to be blunt in order to make them understand. If you think about it, horses are not very diplomatic in their reactions to each other. If one does something offensive, regardless of reason, he gets nailed; but as soon as he moves away or stops the inappropriate behavior, the punishment ceases. As humans, we are wired for warnings, followed by punishment, followed by lecture/explanation...a whole drawn-out process that, IME, leaves the equine brain utterly confused. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif If he bit you five minutes ago, why are you still mad? Were you another horse, you should have kicked him in the teeth and gone right back to what you were doing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Whatever behavior modification you do with a horse, it has to be simple, logical, and consistent. For a horse that won't tie, the tree/belly rope (OR the donkey) fits that bill perfectly, IMO. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif



"It's not getting what you want, it's wanting what you've got." -Sheryl Crow

ESG
Nov. 3, 2003, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suzss:
.
He will sometimes use the oldfashioned cowboy ways, but we are both hesitant to try this with my gal because, well frankly, she's a valuable horse and it's not worth hurting her in the process.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I understand your and your trainer's hesitation (he sounds like a gem, by the way; wish he was closer to me!), I think it's high time to teach your filly just who pays for her oats. Even if she's the most valuable horse you've ever owned, or ever will own, she's not worth someone, ANYONE, getting hurt or killed. And just MHO, but it sounds like she's on the road to doing just that. I'd be very afraid of a horse with no sense of self-preservation, and it sounds to me like your filly is sadly lacking there. Just me, but I wouldn't touch a horse with someone else's ten foot pole that is so intent on getting its way that it breaks tires and throws itself on the ground in tantrums. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

ESG
Nov. 3, 2003, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustJump:
Again folks, I ask...

Does any horse who is not a polo pony desperately NEED to be tied for extended periods?

Is all the trauma over this one thing worth the effort, provided, of course that in all other areas of training, things are OK?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, from what I gather from the original and subsequent posts on this filly, she was sent to the trainer to be saddle broke and can't even get past the point of tying. I understand and agree with your point about dealing with idiosyncracies in older, broke horses, but this one hasn't had enough OTHER training to determine whether she's worth the effort to try to save or the gunpowder it would take to put her out of her misery. She has, from the sound of things, no respect for any opinion but her own, and this DEFINITELY needs to be addressed before anyone, including a bronc rider, would attempt to get on her back. If (not) tying were the only issue, I don't think suzss (sp?) would have posted in the first place. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

JustJump
Nov. 3, 2003, 09:47 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gifI completely LOVE the saving the gunpowder motive for further training!!

ponygirl
Nov. 3, 2003, 10:28 AM
If she was mine, I'd send her to a man by the name of Frank Barnett in the Ocala/Williston FL area. He has major $ horses with all kinds of issues. The man is absolultey amazing and all kinds of BNTs use him. He actually broke Kyra Kyrkland's gray horse. He's that good! And he's reasonable.

"Dogs have owners, cats have staff."

sileeno
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:10 PM
Learning to give to pressure. Whether a horse is being tied to a post for saddling or sitting in cross ties or being lead by the pressure of a leadline, it's all the same. The causes of pressure may be different, but the horse should always respond the same. They should come off pressure willingly. Some horses have learned to fight the pressure because they know they will get a release if they fight. I'm sure some horses do this out of fear and some do it just to get out of doing something unwanted. The worst thing that can happen when a horse is pulling back is for the line to break because they have just learned that if they fight, they will get released. An easy and safe way to start solving this problem is to setup a tie line for your horse between two trees and tie her there. If you are interested in this idea, I will be glad to explain further.



"Horses are easy until we make them complicated."

Grasshopper
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:42 PM
MistyBlue, you're a genius. I've heard of the other methods, but your hay bale arrangement sounds just perfect for some situations! (Now storing this idea in brain files for future reference...) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nov. 3, 2003, 02:03 PM
Oops!

BeastieSlave
Nov. 3, 2003, 02:11 PM
You guys are great! Thanks for continuing to post replies!

I took some time to asses the damage done at Saturday's loading disaster. We spent 30 minutes or so going back to basics. Yes, she was wary and we spent the first 20 minutes remembering that the tap tap of the wip was the signal to move forward, not to run in circles around me. Once that came back she was good. I loaded her several times and had her stand on the trailer. She was quiet, and didn't try to back off until I asked. One time I even stopped her with her hind feet on the ground and had her reload. I think she's gonna be o.k.

I love the hay bale idea! I've even got a good setup to try it. We've got an old cow barn with dirt floors and a 10' center aisle. A couple of bales of last year's hay are no big loss. Should be interesting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think I'll try it while I'm splicing rope to make my neck and belly ropes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

IrishLuck
Nov. 3, 2003, 02:27 PM
I would do things the Monty Roberts way, it definently establishes you as the alpha mare rather than the horse, believe me, ive started many yearlings that way and its worked! Its really exciting when you join up for the first time too.

YoungFilly
Nov. 3, 2003, 03:41 PM
sileeno thats a GREAT idea! suzss, thats actually a training technique that I read about from John Lyons. Maybe you might want to go over to his website and checkout some of his articles. I haven't been on there in a while but I think you pay per article, finding this one might be well worth it in your case. Good luck, I have a 3 yr old WB too, and they can be tough to figure out. Your horse sounds like she learned a really bad habit, not a rouge.

Simkie
Nov. 3, 2003, 03:57 PM
I'm coming into this thread late, so forgive me if this has been said.

I can't BELIEVE that there are people out there that think it's okay for a horse not to tie.

Dear GOD. That's one of the basic every-horse-does-it kind of things. I don't care how in the hell you do it, but teach your horse to tie hard and fast, to and with something that won't break.

If you don't think you'll ever need to tie your horse, go read the Cali fire threads in Off Course. Somewhere, it's noted that horses had to tie to fences or stalls while the details were getting ironed out.

Lest you think that I have horses that came broke to tie:

Spirit had been badly, badly abused, and hadn't had any of the lessons we associate with babies. She didn't know how to pick up her feet, or load in a trailer or LEAD. She spent some time on a truck innertube, braided nylon rope, and 2 nylon halters. I would tie her up near the arena, out of the way, when my barn would have shows. Sure, she freaked out, especially when she realized she couldn't go anywhere, but she sure ties nicely now.

Ya-ya is a OTTB. It's obvious that she's gotten loose from pulling back. She struggles and expects to get free. What a pain in the ass. So she's also spent time tied to something that won't break, with something that won't break.

I don't care what it takes, guys. A horse that isn't broke to tie is a danger to itself and the PEOPLE around it.

luckyduck
Nov. 3, 2003, 03:57 PM
I think I was here in this situation last year.....

I have a mare that I raised...she was an orphan...mom died when she was 16 hours old.

Needless to say, she was a tad spoiled...I was always afraid people were going to hurt her.

Well...we "tried" to break her at 4....went through the temper tantrums, like not wanting to tie, not respecting and always would react by trying to kick back at you.

I ALMOST gave up UNTIL..... I decided that my "alpha" mare needed her BUTT kicked but NOT by a human.

I turned her loose in a herd of 17 plus....450 acres and it was join the group or fend for yourself.

She stayed out there through thick and THIN and I do mean thin. She had to learn to reley on the herd memebers to teach her EVERYTHING.

Well from March 2003 until October 2003 she lived it rough.

The day I went to pick her up, I had a hard time getting near her at first because she was now NOT the alpha mare and the rest of the herd wanted treats and rubs.

She willingly let me halter and lead her, walked across the highway like a pet pony, and loaded into the trailer without even so as much thinking about NOT going in.

At home we had a few touch and go moments...she treid me one...and I "attacked" her as an alpha mare would...towards her shoulder and chased her off.

The test was letting someone else handle her and I chose poeople at first who would use this new "system" ....

She is now 5 and being ridden w/t/c, cross ties and gets her feet done WITHOUT being drugged. She even let the vet do her shots for the first time without tring to kill him. (I was so proud)

A strange method that may work for some, but not for all, but my little mare needed her butt kicked by her own kind to learn how rank works....THEN we were able to use the same herd instincts to over come HER ideas of being an ALPHA mare.

I now have my SECOND orphan who is going through the same treatment but YEARS earlier...

Hope you find a way to help your situation.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

findeight
Nov. 3, 2003, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustJump:
Again folks, I ask...

Does any horse who is not a polo pony desperately NEED to be tied for extended periods?

Is all the trauma over this one thing worth the effort, provided, of course that in all other areas of training, things are OK?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough and a good question.

But stop and think about what we do in the saddle...we apply pressure and release when the horse responds to it. We apply pressure on one rein to turn, pressure with leg to move away and pressure with hands and seat to stop.
Asking a horse to accept the pressure of being tied is a requirement to asking it to do the same under saddle.
I know how to teach that and, frankly, won't have one that does not accept it. Personal experience has taught me those that do not accept being tied up don't accept commands under saddle any better and they are pains to get in a trailer.

If this poster ever wants to do any kind of competition-one that won't tie will be a nightmare and bonafide pain in the patoot. You can't even go potty without enlisting somebody to hold it and that's crap you don't need to deal with in the stress of a competition situation.

I'd also add that tying is a prerequisite of loading in a trailer...how many that don't tie or load were left to burn in California as all fled with minutes to spare. Harsh? Yes. But true. They have to respect the lead rope and pressure and it has repeatedly been proven accepting a lead and loading will save their lives in a disaster.

It can be taught and I urge this poster to get it done. Far as the belly rope...any cowboy can do this one for you and it generally only takes about 6 hours with a daily refresher for a few days then once a week for a month or so. I strongly suggest you learn it.
Your horse will only benefit from it as will any who handle him.

I'm sorry, but I get tired of ladies making excuses for horses that walk all over them or cannot be taken anywhere without major concessions because the horse won't do this or that or be left alone or tied up.
That's BS you don't need it what should be a relaxing hobby.

Fix the tie up thing. Trust me, it'll help enormously down the road when you ask the horse for something and don't want an "I don't feel like it" response.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

bigbay
Nov. 3, 2003, 09:32 PM
Before trying the belly/hay bale ropes which are great methods but have the potential for complications... try the tree rope (warning-- very long post ahead!). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am currently on both ends of the spectrum in that I have an older TB mare who has not tied for most of her life, and a yearling who is just now learning to tie.

The older mare tied as a youngster, and then one day when she was four she was tied up in an older leather halter. Something spooked her, she pulled back, the halter broke, and her little brain went "Bingo!" If I had known then what I know now, I would've immediately gotten a halter and lead that wouldn't break and tied her to something solid, and let her realize that that was a one-time only deal. Unfortunately, I was the one who thought it was a one-time deal, continued to tie her with leather halters and cotton leads (in my defense- I was in Pony Club at the time and had no choice! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) and she continued to believe in her scientific theory of "nothing is stronger than me!" and that's how it's been for 10 years.

Do I wish it had been different? Yes, there have been many times where not being able to tie her has been a pain in the a$$. Has it been manageable and surmountable? Yes. In those same ten years, she has still managed to make it to several A shows, several pony club rallies, a few events, a few gymkhanas, and many trail rides. Since I know my horse doesn't tie, I simply plan ahead.

She is now semi-retired, and in the interests of having not much else to do with her and to satisfy my own curiousity, I decided to go back to basics. Because of ten years of her believing she is the strongest horse in the universe, I refused to go the cowboy way and tie her with something that won't break to something that won't budge and let her have it out. Her typical M.O. would be to sit back and wait for something to break. If it didn't break, she would wag around shaking her head and try different angles with increased force. Being a TB and a chestnut mare, things would probably continue to escalate from there, and sorry to those "if she can't tie she's dogmeat!" posters, but she means too much to me and has lived way too productive a life for me to let her die over something as meaningless as a broken neck during semi-retirement.

I just looked for a way to eliminate the fight from the equation, and came back to the phrase often used for horses that lean/pull on you when you ride: "they can't pull on you unless you give them something to pull against." I can't stop my mare from pulling, but I can change what she gets to pull against. Not saying this is what everyone should do, but here's the program that's simultaneously working for the old broad who's set in her ways, and the yearling who'd never been tied but also never had a bad experience:

First make sure they lead properly, willingly, and step forward to pressure on the leadrope. If they're slow or sluggish about this, switching to a rope halter (or other variation such as Be-Nice or even a stud chain) will work wonders. I use rope halters on both of mine for this and the tying process, because it makes them a little more sensitive to pressure.

Find a nice tall tree with a thick overhanging limb that's ten feet or more higher than your horse and reaches out more than a horse's length from the trunk, or an indoor arena/barn with sturdy rafters. Invest in a cowboy's roping rope from the feed store, pull out your ladder, and (after working the kinks out of the rope and softening it up so it'll hang straight), hang the honda end down so it'll be about ear-level with your horse. You can leave the rope strung through the honda so it looks like a hangman's noose, but I prefer to undo it and just leave the actual honda hanging down. Tie the other end of the rope to the branch/rafter very securely. At some barns where they do it from a rafter, I've seen them rig up a pulley system where the height can be raised and lowered for different horses.

Make sure your leadrope has a snap that's not likely to break. Not a whole lot of pressure will be exerted on it during this exercise, but a thicker snap is still a good idea. Run the leadrope through the honda/noose so your horse has just enough slack to position his head naturally but not any lower. Tie a quick release knot and that's it. Your horse now has his own maypole- without the pole! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The beauty of this is, they can walk around to their heart's content and not feel trapped, they can't get a foot over it, and they're not likely to rear, throw themselves to the ground, or otherwise throw a fit because: the rope has so much give and sway, they can never find a solid point of resistence against which to throw their strength, i.e. the rope doesn't pull back!

Note: At first it may look like they'll get it wrapped around their neck, but they won't. Hook one up to your ceiling and try it yourself. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Anyway, I introduced both baby and old broad to it first by grooming them there, so I was there with them and they felt comfortable. Then we switched to me just being nearby but out of reach, letting them move around and test out the range of the rope, but not so much they felt abandoned. Finally we progressed to leaving them there while I did my other barn chores, and just checking in on occaisionally. We're still working up to longer and longer periods, not so much for the tying issue, but more for learning patience and that they're on my schedule.

In the meantime, I bought a bungee tie (one of those thick, cloth-covered bungees with a bull snap on one end and a quick release on the other) about three feet long and attach it to the rope halter for tying in other areas (the one downfall of the maypole is that it is not transportable!) I haven't tried this with baby yet but it's working so far for old broad- I just tie her up with it so far she hasn't even tried pulling back, but if she did, the bungee would have a give effect similar to the maypole and encourage her to come forward to the pressure.

Although I'll do this with the baby too when the time comes, eventually he'll just progress to tying with a non-breakable halter and rope. If the incident ever arises or something spooks him, with the groundwork I've done and the all the basics, he shouldn't think twice about coming forward to the pressure and will tie for the rest of his life.

Anyway, I know this was long and I apologize, but it just sounded like your mare was a mix between my two, and I wanted to share an approach that worked for both. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Keep in mind, I still work with them on every other basic I can think of, not just the tying, and reading back over your initial post, it sounds like there are a few other issues. But, something like the maypole works on attitudes as well, and there are also a lot of other good attitude adjustment theories posted already on this thread.

Just thought I'd throw one more idea out there, and also give you a the more positive story of the old broad since you asked for postive stories http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (BTW, one of my trainers told me back when old broad was six "don't ever send this horse to a cowboy. He'll shoot her the first day.") Most of all, it sounds like you have a calm, reasonable outlook on the whole thing, with the best interests of the horse and the humans that will have to handle her at heart. Good luck, and I hope it turns out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KrazyTBMare
Nov. 4, 2003, 04:10 AM
I havent had the chance to read all the responses on this thread, just the top few.

I have an alpha mare who to an EXTENT is similar to your filly. She doesnt like being told what to do, and when shes upset at whats going on, she has been known to pull back in the cross ties.

She stands tied 98% of the time, perfectly fine. But at first the pulling started as a test, she knew it scared me, and that she could get out of her reg halter and do what SHE wanted to. After trying to deal with this (even put hobbles on one time and she was an angel) I decided to try different options. I tried the inner tubes and the double halter deal, nothing worked.

I was then refered to the Be Nice halter. It works on a pulley system, and puts pressure on the horses poll when they pull. It is nylon and one continuous piece and will not break.

I bought one to try it out. I got my mare, brought her in, put the Be Nice on and went about my business. As usual, she flew back, not scared, but b/c she could. She sits on her butt, braces with her front feet, lowers her head, streatches out her neck and pulls. Well, instead of slipping out of her halter or snapping the ties, she hopped forward. Im sure if she could talk she would have said "DAMN THAT HURTS!" she tried it one more time, and that was that. It tightens when she fights, and immediately releases when she comes forward.

I have also spent a lot of time in a reg halter asking her to give to pressure on her poll, lower her head, and teaching her to come forward when clucked at.

Ever since she realized I was the boss, not her, and got her attitude adjustment, she has been a changed horse. She still likes to think shes the boss, but only when she does not have a bridle or halter on. No bridle or halter? Her time. But those piece of equipment mean business and my time.

Who knows if this will work with your filly. But its worth a try, right? My mare did the same about the work deal too. I was trying out a different schedule, and brought her in, groomed her, she was fine. As soon as she saw me with the saddle, she started flying back, protesting working, b/c SHE didnt want to. MARES!!

I hope you figure out something that will work for your girl. Good luck! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Life is not measured by how many breathes we take, but by how many moments that take our breathe away!

Eat, Sleep, RIDE!