***RARITY*** [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

Norsire

Apr. 5, 2003, 08:52 AM

Mahal, I found a Noha on your site, not a Noa, which is what is on your photo of your new foal. If, Noha is the mare of your new foal and she is cremello as she appears on your site, then you have a cremello colt not a perlino. A cremello to palomino is 50% chance of palomino and 50% chance of cremello...there is no other choices for a palomino to a cremello breeding. If, your mare is cremello, then your new foal is a cremello not a perlino. In order for your foal to be a perlino then the dam must be a smokey black, smokey creme, perlino or a buckskin when bred to your palomino stallion. Here is a color chart for you to see for your self, that you indeed have a nice cremello colt, not a perlino. He is very cute and cremellos are nice too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.horsecolor.com/dilutions/cream/foal_chart.htm

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
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aurum

Apr. 5, 2003, 09:24 AM

Congratulations on the cute baby.

Noa is a Cremello mare, she was bred to Apollon in 2001 and since Mahal is a Palomino, the colt can only be a Cremello or a Palomino. If he has light blue eyes he definitely is a cremello. Cremello x Palomino can only produce 50% Palomino and 50% Cremello, that is genetics. Sorry for no better news.

The one and only Perlino German WB so far was born in 1990 by my Buckskin stallion Upper Class out of the Palomino mare Novella. She was sold to Hannover. I attached a picture.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

dressagelover

Apr. 5, 2003, 09:32 AM

He is really adorable! Congrats!

DL

MAHAL

Apr. 5, 2003, 12:33 PM

to aurum and Norsire
Thank you for your congratulations.

I very well understand that you mistrust my announcement of the very first perlino German Warmblood colt. Yes, his dam is Noa, a cremello mare, and his sire is Mahal, a palomino.
BUT
As a matter of fact, my colt, Modern Art, is definitely a perlino.

He can't be a cremello:
You may know, a cremello does have a very bright skin AND blue eyes.
As you can see on that picture, Modern Art doesn't have blue eyes like his mother, Noa. His eyes are dark blue

He also can't be a Palomino:
A palomino always does have white mane and tail, his coat is always darker.
As you can see on the pictures, Modern Art's mane, tail and coat, even his eyelashes do have the same color - they look like apricose-gold.

So, what else do you think can Modern Art be?
He's definitely a perlino.

Mahal

***Home of Mahal***
exclusively colored German Warmblood
horses with world class bloodline
www.coloredfoals.com (http://www.coloredfoals.com)

MAHAL

Apr. 5, 2003, 12:37 PM

here is the second photo I was talking about!

Mahal

***Home of Mahal***
exclusively colored German Warmblood
horses with world class bloodline
www.coloredfoals.com (http://www.coloredfoals.com)

Astraled

Apr. 5, 2003, 01:01 PM

His parents are dilute chestnuts; it's virtually impossible for him to be a dilute bay.

He's very cute. Cremellos are still pretty unusual. Congrats! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

__________________________
If you cheapskate me into hell, I'll haunt you good

Faiths CremelloWB

Apr. 5, 2003, 01:25 PM

First I would like to say, congratulations!!!!

I Would have to agree with Norsire & Aurum...
Geneticly speaking...it would be impossible to get a perlino from a cremello and Palomino....
Your colts eyes may lighten with the next few weeks to come and coat colour can change a lot in the first few months after birth... Nevertheless.....Nice Colt....

Here are a few links for you to look at that may help explain...

http://www.doubledilute.com/main.html

http://www.doubledilute.com/color-chart.htm

Good luck with your colt...
www.blazingcoloursfarm.com (http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com)

Norsire

Apr. 5, 2003, 02:12 PM

Mahal, I hate to burst your bubble,but from what you are descriping now, you have a palomino colt and not even a cremello. First of all, if the colt was not born with very light aqua blue eyes you don't even have a cremello. Second a perlino will also have very light aqua blue eyes at birth. Eyes do not get lighter as they get older but darker. What you are seeing is a palomino colt with the dark greyish/blue eyes that will turn brown, just as human babies do as they get older. Thirdly you can NOT get a perlino from a palomino to a cremello, it is just geneticly IMPOSSIBBLE period!!!! No one here is try to be mean, but just simply explain the very basics of color gentics as provided in the color chart for you that I gave the link to in above post. I have several foals I will post that have the same color mane as body color when they are born. Here are some examples for you.

Example 1 Dreaming In Gold, he looks alot like your colt, he was very apricot gold color as a young foal, he now has a very white mane, tail and forelock and his coat is more golden than apricot color now that he is older.
http://www.norsire.com/dreamingingold.html

Example 2 Lucky Millionair a very light palomino colt, that looks almost cremello in color.
http://www.norsire.com/lucky.html

Example 3 Gold Plus a very light palomino.
http://www.norsire.com/goldplus.html

Example 4 Wishing Well Of Gold This fillies photo's were taken at 8 hours old. She looks like a cremello, but is a palomino, because it is genticly impossible for her to be a cremello because the mare was chestnut bred to my cremello TB stallion Zillionair..with this combo the foal can only be one color, 100% palomino. When you breed chestnut to cremello the resulting foal can only be PALOMINO 100% of the time.
http://www.norsire.com/wishingwell.html

Mahal your foal is a palomino and can not be PERLINO. I hope you understand now what I'm trying to explain and maybe the photos I posted will help you see you indeed have a palomino. You will find as he grows older, this eyes will get darker and darker and his mane, tail and forelock will turn more white and his body color will be come more golden. There are so many shades of palomino color.

When, I bred my mare Issue's Call a chestnut to Gold Apollo, the first time I got a palomino filly. The second time, I got a very strawberry blonde/apricot gold color. I was convinced it was as very light chestnut in color so I took my mare back to breed her back for a third time, as I wanted a palomino colt to keep as a stallion prospect. When I arrived with my mare for the live cover with my "chestnut" colt, they informed me I indeed had a palomino colt and not a chestnut as I had thought. I did breed my mare back anyway and got Issue of Gold my current stallion who is the sire of my two cremellos. I did geld Golden Miracle and he turned out to be the most beautiful DARK palomino with the whitest mane, tail and forelock, I had ever seen. By the time Issue of Gold came along I had two palomino colts and then chose Issue of Gold and gelded the other palomino and sold him. So, you see foal color can fool the untrained eye. With my chestnut mare I knew I could only get two colors chestnut or palomino and I was just sure I had a chestnut. So, Mahal the moral of the story is you have a very apricot golden colored palomino colt that will show his true colors in time. Good luck with your palomino colt, he is very nice! Just don't try to make him something, genticly impossible, which would be a perlino with a palomino to cremello mating! I truely hope you now understand what we are all trying to tell you. He is still a very nice colt! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

[This message was edited by Norsire on Apr. 05, 2003 at 06:21 PM.]

aurum

Apr. 5, 2003, 06:19 PM

I am sorry but that colt is not even a cremello, he is a Palomino.

First of all a Perlino is born exactly the same as a Cremello with light blue eyes and pink skin , but has some darker and reddish mane and tail (look at the picture of my filly that I posted) and your colt looks exactly like some Palominos are born. In my barn Palominos are born since more than 20 years now and so I should know.

Second there are genetics! It is JUST NOT POSSIBLE that a Perlino is produced out of a Cremello and by a Palomino! AND a Perlino looks totally different, I had one born - see above - and so I know how they look.

From your picture and description, that colt is a Palomino and nothing else, wait for about a week and the nose and part around the eyes will get darker. Palominos are often born with greyish and dark blue eyes.

This is just as it is, you will have to accept it.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Palomino Leopard WB

Apr. 5, 2003, 11:02 PM

He also can't be a Palomino:
A palomino always does have white mane and tail, his coat is always darker.
As you can see on the pictures, Modern Art's mane, tail and coat, even his eyelashes do have the same color - they look like apricose-gold.

So, what else do you think can Modern Art be?
He's definitely a perlino.
________________________________________________
As the other posters have stated, the colt cannot be a Perlino it would be genetically impossible. When you breed a cremello and a palomino the resulting foal can only be a cremello or a palomino 50/50 chance. I am not sure how you thought otherwise. This colour chart for horses might help explain things for you. Http://www.horsecolor.com/dilutions/cream/foal_chart.htm
**The perlino color is the buckskin color with one more cream gene added. The buckskin is a bay horse with one cream gene, and the perlino is a bay horse with two cream genes. Or, you could say it's a buckskin with one more cream gene added. These horses have cream colored body hair and a darker yellow, tan or orange cast to their manes & tails.**
I have seen many palomino foals born entirely golden looking it is VERY common, some are even born looking chesnut. With a foal coat it is sometimes difficult to judge their true colour. Their mane and tail becomes white as they mature.

vanilla & black

Apr. 6, 2003, 04:24 AM

Mahal,
congrats to this sweetheart. He is sooooo cute!

I've to confess I'm a bit confused on Modern Art's color... He really looks like a true perlino - but as other members already wrote: Palomino x Cremello usually produces palomino or cremello.

Can you please tell me the color of Modern Art's grandsires and granddams? Is there a buckskin or so? I know from other breds that sometimes a foal with a "crazy", unusual color was born.

For example: Friesian horses. They are always black, but sometimes "red horses" (I think you guys call it "sorrel"?) will be born. They are very rare and very expensive - but it is possible. I also know about a grey (proofed purebred) Friesian gelding.

Friends of mine are breeding peruvian pasos. Two or three years ago, a buckskin filly was born. The sire was a rare palomino (rare in that bred, at least in Europe) and the dam was a sorrel. The filly has had a golden skin and black mane, tail and legs - a wonderful buckskin.

That's why I am a bit confused on Modern Art's color and I am looking forward to learn more on the color of his Grandparents and Great-Grandparents.

Have a great day
Sonja

aurum

Apr. 6, 2003, 04:32 AM

Sonja the grand parents of Noa and of Mahal have all been Palomino on the sire and on the dam side.

You cannot change genetics, that is just not possible and if that sorrel mare was really sorrel, then the sire was definitely not the Palomino if the outcome was a buckskin. And a Perlino born does absolutely not look like this colt you might not have seen one, but I had one, so I know how a Perlino looks like. They are born exactly like cremellos with very light ivory coat and aqua blue eyes and they have pink skin, just the mane and tail is a bit of greyish/reddish.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

vanilla & black

Apr. 6, 2003, 05:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by aurum:
Sonja the grand parents of Noa and of Mahal have all been Palomino on the sire and on the dam side. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for that info. I didn't know the colors of these horses, that's why I asked for more info.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> You cannot change genetics, that is just not possible and if that sorrel mare was really sorrel, then the sire was definitely not the Palomino if the outcome was a buckskin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not trying to change genetics, all I did is to explain which "crazy colors" I met from other breds.
A foal doesn't only carry the gens of his sire and his dam but also gens from his grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on.
If genetic would be that easy, breeding horses would be sooooo simple and all breeder would bred only superior horses.

To the buckskin: Well, there was definitely no other stallion out there. Maybe flying sperm???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> And a Perlino born does absolutely not look like this colt you might not have seen one, but I had one, so I know how a Perlino looks like. They are born exactly like cremellos with very light ivory coat and aqua blue eyes and they have pink skin, just the mane and tail is a bit of greyish/reddish. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I know about perlinos is what I learned from Quarter horse breeders. Maybe genetics in warmblood sporthorses and Quarter horses is not the same?
Just kidding...

Have a great day
Sonja

aurum

Apr. 6, 2003, 07:06 AM

Color genetics is the very SAME in all breeds and with all horses and a buckskin cannot come out of two diluted chestnuts. Chestnut x Chestnut is always chestnut that is very old knowledge and a Palomino or Cremello are one time or two times diluted chestnuts and nothing else other, so NO a buckskin CAN NEVER come out of such a cross and neither can a Perlino therefore. You can even breed two bays together and get a chestnut, means if you breed two buckskins together you can also get a chestnut, Palomino or Cremello and not only bay, Buckskin or Perlino. If you need more specifics and very easy explained color genetics, then please see the double dilute site at http://www.doubledilute.com it is very good explained there and they have also pictures to see the horses in question. And NO I don't believe in "flying sperm" and I don't think a Warmblood Perlino is born in different color than a Quarter Horse Perlino. BTW you can see a Quarter Horse Perlino at Red Fox Farm http://www.redfoxfarmtx.com - their stallion Starbuck is one.

Palominos can be born Palomino with white mane and tail, can be born very light cream like Cremellos with same color of mane and tail, can be born apricot like the one of Mahal and can be born almost light chestnut and change to Palomino later. But NEVER ever a Buckskin or Perlino can result if there are only diluted chestnuts involved.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

alexandra

Apr. 6, 2003, 07:22 AM

First congratulations to that nice colored foal.
Before you all kill each other, maybe Mahal waits a few weaks and posts some pictures later on. I have only experiences with "normal" colored horses, but very very often they change colour latest after they loose the foal coat/fur (?).
My black colt was greyish right after birth. Last year I had the most beautiful dark bay almost black filly (unfortunately changed to a bay, which can be called dark, but I would say regular bay). I have seen very light chestnuts suddenly turning into liver chestnuts and so on. So maybe you should wait until the foal gets his real coat and than post again.

There is a very experienced lady on color genetics on the board, I do not know her name, but she posted a lot and she is unbiased, since she does not have any interest what color you foal is. So maybe she can bring light into these different opinions. Without any of you not believing her.

Please post some new pics or a link in a while, and again congratulations to a helathy foal !

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

atom

Apr. 6, 2003, 07:46 AM

Hi Sonja,

I know Noa`s breed and her parents.
The father of Noa was a palomino and her mother was a buckskin.

Mandy
Home of Atom
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

Daydream Believer

Apr. 6, 2003, 07:50 AM

The only possible way that baby could be a perlino is if one of his parents was not a true palomino or cremello with two red genes (chestnut base color). What comes to mind is the silver dilution (taffy) which can mimic chestnut. It's pretty rare though but a silver bay is very often mistaken for a chestnut as the black in the mane can dilute all the way to silver and gray and their legs lighten up to tan or gray. Most people think they are chestnuts until they produce a bay foal when bred to another chestnut which is genetically impossible. Add the cream dilute to the silver dilution and you can get some interesting combinations. An easy way to prove one way or the other what his true color is is to DNA test him for color. They can now tell if he has red or black genes. If he has a red and a black gene, then he most likely is a perlino.

He is very very cute. I think he's very special even if he turns out to be a palomino instead of a perlino. I wish he were mine. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig. He just looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal" Winston Churchill
"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

alexandra

Apr. 6, 2003, 09:18 AM

I think daydreamers idea is great. I was thinking about testing a mare because I wanted to know whether she will always produce dark horses.
I was told that e.g. the "Tierärztliche Hochschule Hannover" is doing the genetic test for about 45 Euro. I do not know whether this is true and I have no adress whom to contact. But any large veterinary university should be able give information about that.
Maybe call the horse department or genetics department and they might help.
Anyway, nice foal and I would like to see pictures of movement soon !

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

MAHAL

Apr. 6, 2003, 12:23 PM

To Norsire
Your foals are nicely but not to liken with my ***PERLINO*** stallion prospect MODERN ART
Looks the photo under my posting every excitedly

MAHAL

***Home of Mahal***
exclusively colored German Warmblood
horses with world class bloodline
www.coloredfoals.com (http://www.coloredfoals.com)

MAHAL

Apr. 6, 2003, 12:28 PM

to aurum
It is better for you,
you life on YOUR own stable. I think you have enough work.

Sonja the grand parents of Noa and of Mahal have all been Palomino on the sire and on the dam side.

MAHAL

***Home of Mahal***
exclusively colored German Warmblood
horses with world class bloodline
www.coloredfoals.com (http://www.coloredfoals.com)

MAHAL

Apr. 6, 2003, 12:31 PM

I give no answer to Alexandra and Palomino Leo.......

MAHAL

***Home of Mahal***
exclusively colored German Warmblood
horses with world class bloodline
www.coloredfoals.com (http://www.coloredfoals.com)

MAHAL

Apr. 6, 2003, 12:38 PM

Every Excitedly of more photos.

Here Noa and baby

MAHAL

MAHAL

Apr. 6, 2003, 12:45 PM

another photo
here the eye of the baby

MAHAL

MAHAL

Apr. 6, 2003, 12:49 PM

darker blue pigment pinkish skin

MAHAL

MAHAL

Apr. 6, 2003, 12:51 PM

another of him

MAHAL

MAHAL

Apr. 6, 2003, 01:00 PM

Thank you for all people where interested in my rarity German Warmblood foal.

MAHAL

***Home of Mahal***
exclusively colored German Warmblood
horses with world class bloodline
www.coloredfoals.com (http://www.coloredfoals.com)

Norsire

Apr. 6, 2003, 01:25 PM

Mahal this eyes are not LIGHT AQUA BLUE! They will get darker. His eyes are very dark from your own photos...they are clearly not aqua blue eyes! All palominos are born with pink skin and it will turn black in the next few weeks. You will see he is going to get the black skin in about 1 to 2 weeks. My palominos are all born with pink skin, that is normal for a palomino foal. Have you ever had a palomino foal before this one? He is palomino and genticly can not be a perlino. I'm not quite sure why you are hanging onto this! It is FACT not fiction! I'm sorry you are so determined he is perlino, because in a few weeks you are going to see what we are all telling you is fact. I have nothing personal against you at all and you know that. Please go look at my cremellos eyes on my web site at
http://www.norsire.com/billionair.html Look at how dark your foals eyes are. Look at how light my cremellos are....a perlino must have the same light aqua blue eyes. Call US Davis in CA or visit their web site and they will tell you this is geneticly IMPOSSIBLE as well!

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

Palomino Leopard WB

Apr. 6, 2003, 02:07 PM

MAHAL, Aurum has already posted a picture of what a perlino foal looks like and she should know as she did produce the FIRST. I am not certain why you continue to argue as we have plainly posted sites where you can see what the possibilities of the cross you made are. This has nothing to do with us liking or not liking the foal. We are only stating the facts. Your Kinsky mare is a cremello when crossed with Mahal a registered Palomino you choices are only cremello or palomino for a foal.
Please PROVE US WRONG and all of colour genetics...post pictures of this colt in a few weeks.

Daydream Believer

Apr. 6, 2003, 04:57 PM

Better yet, show us the DNA test proving he has a black gene and not two red ones. There is a way to prove it and with this crowd you are going to have to especially given the apparent color of his sire and dam. If they are truly palomino and cremello, than it really is impossible that he'd be a perlino. Foal coat color changes so much until they shed out at about 4 months. My black filly was born dark gray for example. I have no reason, nor do most of us, to lie to you. You need to go out and read how color genetics work and you'll see that we're telling you the truth. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig. He just looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal" Winston Churchill
"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

Silly Mommy

Apr. 6, 2003, 07:05 PM

This is really funny... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the Sunnieflax Clique, IDAC Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
"Poster formerly known as SQW"

aurum

Apr. 6, 2003, 09:43 PM

Pictures of Starbuck the Perlino stallion. It clearly shows that there is no difference in color to the picture of my Perlino WB filly. And it also makes clear that the pink skin and aqua blue eyes are absolutely the same as with cremellos. Only mane and tail is darker and some kind of reddish.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

aurum

Apr. 6, 2003, 09:45 PM

the head shot of Starbuck, see the rose pink skin and the aqua blue eyes. THAT is a Perlino!

The pinkish skin of Modern Art looks like the skin of Champagnes, but since he has no aqua blue eyes, he can also not be a champagne. Wait for about a week and it is clear that he is a Palomino.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Tucked_Away

Apr. 6, 2003, 10:34 PM

Aurum,

Just wanted to say... I don't usually "Wow!" over colored horses -- I can mostly take or leave color. But I'm looking at these pictures of Starbuck, and...

"Wow!"

Quite a handsome lad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

aurum

Apr. 6, 2003, 10:53 PM

You are absolutely right, Starbuck is a beautiful example. But I do not own him, he is owned by Red Fox Farm in Texas http://www.redfoxfarmtx.com and was the nicest example to show what a Perlino really looks like.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

chelsea01

Apr. 7, 2003, 12:44 AM

Hi Mahal,

congratulations to you foal and Mahal / Noa. This is a very very nice and special foal , I look at your website, you have a very good breeding program for colored horses.
Color with this quality...WOW. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I read the discussion about the color, I think it is not a palomino, he has blue eyes and pink skin. A palomino has dark eyes an normal skin.

But I found in this link http://www.doubledilute.com/smokycream.htm
horses who looks like as yours.

The name of the color is Smoky Cream. Is this a possibility if the horse is not a perlino ?

Chelsea

Palomino Leopard WB

Apr. 7, 2003, 02:06 AM

Chelsea...I wondered about this myself, if the colt could be smokey cream. The only way this could be true is if the mare was not a cremello and actually a smokey cream. Unfortunately this could not be true as a smokey cream only occurs if the black horse has a cream gene from EACH parent. Cremello x palomino can still only result in cremello or palomino offspring.

chelsea01

Apr. 7, 2003, 02:41 AM

Hi Aurum,

please can you tell me more about your perlino foal and the parents ?
What is the breeding of Upper Class and what have the stallion for papers ? In which association is the stallion approved ? And the mare registered ? I can not found informations of him.
Can you post more pictures of the foal as newborn foal and also as 3 years old mare or so ?

Thank you Chelsea

aurum

Apr. 7, 2003, 03:01 AM

Chelsea, the filly was sold as a foal and I don't have adult pictures. The sire was an approved ZfDP buckskin stallion by Unkensee the Trakehner. He was approved 1989 and I sold him the same year I think, don't really remember as it is so long ago. He had bred two Palomino mares before he was sold. He was castrated as the new owners did not want a stallion but wanted his color and jumping potential. The filly was then born the year later and was a Perlino as he is a Buckskin and the dam Palomino, so it was possible to create a Perlino. The color was not creamy as with a cremello but like ivory and the mane and tail and also some parts of the body was shimmering silvery reddish. You can see Upper Class at this site http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de/stallion.htm. He was a very dark buckskin.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

aurum

Apr. 7, 2003, 03:24 AM

Here is a picture of the Oldenburg Palomino filly Praline as a one week old baby. The pinkish skin of birth is slightly going into a darker color already, but you can still see that the skin is not yet real dark. It is also the same apricot coat color as Modern Art's. I never take pictures of Palomino foals before they are minimum one week old as the pinkish skin around eyes and nose does not look so pretty then the darker skin that comes about a week later.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Spot

Apr. 7, 2003, 03:40 AM

Ive got to say, for what my 2 cents are worth on this discussion, Mahal - yours is a palomino foal - not a cremello and certainly not a perlino!

Here is a picture of my palomino TB - Nikita - filly at 2-3 days of age. The muzzle is still pinkish and the skin has not really started to darken yet except slightly around the muzzle.

I had never had a palomino born before this one, so I was rather confused in the beginning as to whether or not I did, in fact, HAVE a palomino!
The mane and forelock were whitish coming out, but when she dried off, they went to an apricot color, so then I wasnt sure if I had a light chestnut instead.

Then as she matured, the skin darkened, the coat darkened and the mane and tail got whiter.

Mahal - he is a lovely colt, and I am sure will be a wonderful addition to your breeding program - as a palomino and not as a perlino

"Spot"

[This message was edited by Spot on Apr. 07, 2003 at 08:51 AM.]

Policy of Truth

Apr. 7, 2003, 04:48 AM

First, congtrats on a healthy foal, no matter what the color!

Second, no matter how much you want that foal to be a perlino, it CAN'T be, due to GENETICS. I read up on this last night, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why you continue to insist that your foal has defied what are "knowns" in genetics.

Your foal looks EXACTLY like the three palominos I've seen shortly after birth.

Why is color so important to you? Isn't palomino a pretty enough color? Is the foal going to be less important to you if he is not what you were hoping for?

Spot

Apr. 7, 2003, 04:54 AM

amen Pacificsolo - most people would be totally ecstatic to get a lovely colt like this one, and palomino / cremello / perlino / buckskin would make him even more special still.

Mahal - he is what he is - no amount of wishing or insisting on your part will change anything.

I wish for more spots all the time - doesnt mean that I get them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Spot"

Norsire

Apr. 7, 2003, 05:12 AM

Chelsea, chestnuts and palominos are born with pink skin and it turns dark in about 1 to 2 weeks...so the pink skin on this foal means nothing at all at birth to a week. Since the foal does not have AQUA LIGHT BLUE EYES at birth it means it is not even a cremello. The foal can only be one of two colors palomino/cremello. PLEASE GO SEE THE COLOR CHART posted in my second post on page one. Here is a close up photo of my stallion Billionair's eye, which I pulled from the IRC site to show a close up of an AQUA BLUE EYE!

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

chelsea01

Apr. 7, 2003, 05:14 AM

Hi,

thank you Aurum to the answer about Upper Class.
Has the filly German Warmblood Papers ?

to Mahal:

I think the best way is what Daydream Believer said: make a DNA test about his color.
I think he looks different as the two palominos who posted by aurum and Spot.
i saw at your website that Noa get 2002 a buckskin spotted blanket filly.
And I think agree with vanilla & black that not only the parants important for the foal color, also the grandparents. Atom posted there was a buckskin mare in Noas pedigree, and I think she can get a perlino or also a smoky cream.
Mahal-have your stallion also brown or dark brown ancestors in his pedigree ?

Thank you
Chelsea

Kinsella

Apr. 7, 2003, 05:39 AM

I was going to stay out of this but...

palomino and cremello are dilutes of chestnut. Chestnut is recessive. A chestnut horse can only have chestnut "base" genes or it is not chestnut. So, while a two bays can make a chestnut (they both may have a recessive chestnut gene), two chestnuts CAN NOT make a bay. Therefore, grandparent color (or any other ancester in this particular case) makes no difference since there is no way that either the sire or dam of the foal in question could have had a bay/black gene and still be the color they are.

Some things in color genetics are hard, this isn't one of them...

And chelsea, the buckskin filly that mare had last year got it's black/bay gene from it's sire Apollon, not the mare...

(Now spot & norsire - don't go into shock because we are agreeing on something http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

******************************
"It is that stupid moron's RIGHT to be that completely and utterly WRONG." - Dennis Miller and his thought's about Michael Moore

Spot

Apr. 7, 2003, 05:45 AM

whew Kinsella - that was close! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I applied the difibralator paddles to my chest, gave myself a few kick starts, and I'm okay now ...

Hope that Norsire doesnt need the same treatment!

"Spot"

atom

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:12 AM

Hi Mahal,

I have here a picture from a Kinsky Perlino he looks as yours.He has also blue eyes and is 11 years old.
The father was a buckskin stallion.
It is the same color as your nice foal with the same metallic shine http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifit is the Equus Kinsky Touch and special for Equus Kinsky breed.

Mandy
Home of "Atom"
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

aurum

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:17 AM

Atom:
that horse does look like a smoky cream and not like a perlino.

Chelsea:
yes the filly has German Warmblood, Deutsches Reitpferd, papers.

As for genetics, NO the bucksin gene cannot skip a generation, that is total nonsense. Since the dam Noa is a cremello (and she is - I know it since I had bred her with Apollon live cover) and since Mahal is a Palomino there is no way other than Palomino or cremello. It is not a cremello because the aqua blue eyes are missing and the skin is not rose pink, so it must be a Palomino. The filly by Apollon is buckskin because Apollon is a black leopard and that is why that filly is a buckskin, not due to the dam. I also had a dark buckskin blanketed colt by Apollon out of a Palomino mare.

I don't know why it seems so complicated for people to understand genetics and to admit that cremello x palomino does not give anything as cremello or palomino at 50% each.

If one wants to bred for color it would be necessary to learn a minimum about genetics first before inventing the rules of genetics new! Otherwise they only make a fool out of themselves by insisting on something that cannot be.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Norsire

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:20 AM

NO, Spot and Kinsella I'm fine. But, my father has blue eyes and light brown hair, and my mother had hazel eyes and light brown hair. I have white skin with large black patches of skin all over (I believe this is pinto), purple hair, and neon pink eyes! You say, you don't believe me,,,why? Is it GENETICLY IMPOSSIBLE? But, really I am! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Come on guyes, genetics is genetics!!!! You can't change them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

MAHAL

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:48 AM

OHHHH all in excitement http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

well wait and see, the blood test is on the way.
For more info of my colt MODERN ART in short time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MAHAL

atom

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:55 AM

Hi Aurum,

thank you for your opinion, but this Kinsky Horse is definitly a perlino.
Please look the other pictures, you can see the red tail.
It is different to the smoky cream link who was chelsea posted.

Mandy
Home of "Atom"
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

aurum

Apr. 7, 2003, 07:05 AM

Atom:
It looks so reddish shiny all over that it looks more like those very very rare smoky creams as a Perlino, since the Perlinos have only reddish mane and tail but body is ivory and the Smoky Cream Achal-Tekke on the double dilute page has the same rose sheen on its body and so I thought it would be such a rare smoky cream.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

atom

Apr. 7, 2003, 07:23 AM

Hi,

Thank you for opinion.
here is another picture from the Kinsky horse for the color genetic experts.

Mandy
Home of "Atom"
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

[This message was edited by atom on Apr. 07, 2003 at 11:33 AM.]

aurum

Apr. 7, 2003, 07:33 AM

Since he has 4 white socks it seems pretty normal that he has also 4 white hooves.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Janeway

Apr. 7, 2003, 07:39 AM

and some of you wondered why I thought that palominos were contentious?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I'm with SillyMommy; this topic is just bizarre!

I don't understand how Mahal can believe that her new foal has suddenly defied the hard core science of genetics. Actually, I'd like to here her explain how she thinks it happened!

and as someone else said above, why does it matter so much? He is a lovely foal and already an unusual colour, why wish for more than you have?

The Great Gazoo

Apr. 7, 2003, 08:26 AM

lol bizarre? I'd say!

He is
He isn't!
He is!
NO, he isn't!!
what the heck does it matter!? A good horse is a good horse, regardless of colour! I'm sorry but this breeding for colour is getting a little out of hand.
And you wonder why colour breeders have a "reputation" for cat fighting!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I know you all say the colour is just the "icing on the cake" but I'm starting to wonder, y'all seem a little obsessed, touchy and very competitive!

suecoo

Apr. 7, 2003, 08:57 AM

I love reading the Breeding Fourms, because its always just like a soap opera over here!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Life without horses is possible, but pointless......

Nikita

Apr. 7, 2003, 09:19 AM

He's a beautiful colt and congratulations.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I've always wanted a perlpalello. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

obie

Apr. 7, 2003, 09:25 AM

OK, I agree this is all very strange and I don't mean to get anyone on a tither, but in my opion the pics of a lot of these guys look like lab rats we used to have to raise. Sort of gives me the willies. Before you get mad, I have a point about that. Those rats, all very white and pink (I will not venture to call them any certain color) were very inbred and could be bred to show a multitude of detrimental, even lethal genes / alleles. Many of these genes go along with the expression of "rare" phynotypes (outward looks, not genetic structure) Is there any evidence to suggest that some of the "rare" colors, when they occur or becasue they are ocurring more often due to more selective breeding are also expressing detrimental genes like deformities, propensity for certain diseases or cancers, etc. It would just scare me to breed something so rare, maybe nature is not so dumb. I love colored horses, so I am not of that argument, color and "looks" are the first thing I notice but it is probably the last thing I really look at. There is a "theory" about why people prefer horses like bay & brown is b/c those are dominant colors and thus are horses that carry more desirable traits that have been selected for. I am not one to agree with that theory but it is out there. Anyone know of info about "recessive" color expression with other genotypic and phenotypic traits that are expressed when these rare events occur

Spot

Apr. 7, 2003, 09:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I've always wanted a perlpalello. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats is about the damned funniest thing I have ever heard! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A PERLPALELLO ???

That is hilarious ...
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"Spot"

atom

Apr. 7, 2003, 09:41 AM

Hi Nikita,

thank you for the funny word creation in this discussion-PERLPALELLO thats great.

Aurum: sorry for the misunderstanding, my question for the hoofs was not for this Kinsky Horse, it was a general question.( it looks so as was it for this horse... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I saw cremello horses not with socks and all the horses has white hoofs. Is this normal for this color or was it accident ?

Thank you

Mandy
Home of "Atom"
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

vanilla & black

Apr. 7, 2003, 09:47 AM

Okay guys, let's go ahead... let's change genetics *lol*

Found an interesting website:
http://www.cremello.co.uk/welframe.htm

-> then go to "members"
-> scroll down until you can see the picture of a foal lying in the straw.

It's a posting from a Mrs Jane Bohan, eastern North Carolina.
Te text originally posted by Mrs Jane Bohan:
My husband and I run a small horse farm in eastern NC. We have had our first Cremello; which was supposed to be a palomino, but may be one that broke the rules. She has pink skin, 2 blue eyes, and is VERY, VERY light; beautiful. Her dam is a Barlink mare which have been known to "hide" a creme gene in a chestnut.

Well, after reading and re-reading all postings to this topic, I learned that it is NOT possible to bred a cremello out of a chestnut mare???
Soooooo, guys, and WHY is that foal a cremello???

I am curious to read your answers to this "impossible" cremello foal.

Have a great day
Sonja

Kinsella

Apr. 7, 2003, 09:55 AM

v&b, I can't get to any "members" link... Can you copy and post the photo or post a direct link?

******************************
"It is that stupid moron's RIGHT to be that completely and utterly WRONG." - Dennis Miller and his thought's about Michael Moore

Delyth

Apr. 7, 2003, 09:56 AM

The answer is that that is NOT a cremello foal (those eyes don't look light blue to me), it is a palomino, which will become obvious when it sheds the very light foal coat.

Really, some of you people need to learn that a foal coat is just that - a FOAL coat and the true color underneath can end up looking totally different.

aurum

Apr. 7, 2003, 10:00 AM

Since the dam of this foal is a Sabino the foal can also be a white Sabino and have blue eyes just like the blue eyes that some Paints have due to their overo genetics. It is NOT possible that chestnut hides a cream gene, that is nonsense!

I see SPOT came to the same conclusion....

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

[This message was edited by aurum on Apr. 07, 2003 at 02:09 PM.]

Spot

Apr. 7, 2003, 10:04 AM

vanilla & black - you know something, I am wondering if that foal you mentioned that is supposed to be cremello, is actually a maximally expressed all white sabino instead?
The mare is an overo - doesnt say what the sire is or what color he is.
Her eyes (being ice blue) could well be that color in a sabino.

Take a look at pictures of all white sabino foals - they are virtually identical to this filly!

Ive posted pictures of Patchen Beauty and Precious Beauty - 2 maximally expressed sabino's - could they not be mistaken for cremello's as well if you didnt know better?

"Spot"

vanilla & black

Apr. 7, 2003, 10:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kinsella:
v&b, I can't get to any "members" link... Can you copy and post the photo or post a direct link?

******************************
"It is that stupid moron's RIGHT to be that completely and utterly WRONG." - Dennis Miller and his thought's about Michael Moore<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I don't think I'm allowed to copy that picture in this forum (copyright issue).

I don't know how to post a direct link???
Maybe another member of this forum does have these skills???

Sonja

Spot

Apr. 7, 2003, 10:06 AM

Here is another sabino TB - without the lighter coat color, but with 2 ice blue eyes, so blue eyes definately CAN occur in sabino's!

"Spot"

flshgordon

Apr. 7, 2003, 10:46 AM

not changing the subject here but all these pretty fair haired horses have gotten me wondering.....what are the possibilities if you bred each of these type stallions to a dark bay mare??

Perlino?
Cremello?
Palomino?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

***HOORAY--it's a filly!!!!***

sketcher

Apr. 7, 2003, 11:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by flshgordon:
not changing the subject here but all these pretty fair haired horses have gotten me wondering.....what are the possibilities if you bred each of these type stallions to a dark bay mare??

Perlino?
Cremello?
Palomino?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you bothered to read the above information, you would know trhat the answer to that is PERLPALELLO! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

flshgordon

Apr. 7, 2003, 11:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sketcher:
If you bothered to read the above information, you would know trhat the answer to that is PERLPALELLO! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ya know I SAW that but I couldn't figure out where it came from or who said it!! THANKS for clearing that up.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

***HOORAY--it's a filly!!!!***

Silly Mommy

Apr. 7, 2003, 11:52 AM

Silly flshgordon!!!

Methinks based on my limited knowledge, you'd get a buckskin, bay, or chestnut...

I don't know for sure, I'm laughung too hard!!!

Proud member of the Sunnieflax Clique, IDAC Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
"Poster formerly known as SQW"

Apr. 7, 2003, 12:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by flshgordon:
what are the possibilities if you bred each of these type stallions to a dark bay mare??

Perlino?
Cremello?
Palomino?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So much depends on whether the bay mare carries a red gene or if she's homozygous for black, and if the cremello and palomino's carry 1 or 2 bay modifiers (and even if your mare carries 1 or 2 bay modifiers). That said, basically you could get nearly anything from the palomino - black, bay, chestnut, smokey black, buckskin, or palomino. From the cremello or perlino you could get smokey black, buckskin, or palomino. If the bay mare doesn't have a red gene, take out palomino and chestnut from those combinations.

flshgordon

Apr. 7, 2003, 12:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Silly Mommy:
Silly flshgordon!!!

Methinks based on my limited knowledge, you'd get a buckskin, bay, or chestnut...

I don't know for sure, I'm laughung too hard!!!

Proud member of the Sunnieflax Clique, IDAC Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
"Poster formerly known as SQW"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DAMN....I was hoping that "PERLPALELLO" meant there was a chance of a nice lavender color in there somewhere http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You know kind of like that 'Horse of a Different Color' from the wizard of Oz???

***HOORAY--it's a filly!!!!***

flshgordon

Apr. 7, 2003, 12:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by flshgordon:
what are the possibilities if you bred each of these type stallions to a dark bay mare??

Perlino?
Cremello?
Palomino?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So much depends on whether the bay mare carries a red gene or if she's homozygous for black, and if the cremello and palomino's carry 1 or 2 bay modifiers (and even if your mare carries 1 or 2 bay modifiers). That said, _basically_ you could get nearly anything from the palomino - black, bay, chestnut, smokey black, buckskin, or palomino. From the cremello or perlino you could get smokey black, buckskin, or palomino. If the bay mare doesn't have a red gene, take out palomino and chestnut from those combinations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I'll just have to wait again until the next time I breed my mare and see what happens....I played it nice & safe this time--bred bay to bay and guess what--got a bay http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif THANKS!

***HOORAY--it's a filly!!!!***

Policy of Truth

Apr. 7, 2003, 12:23 PM

You may have to settle for a lilac dun http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Silly Mommy

Apr. 7, 2003, 12:29 PM

Roz is the product of bay to bay - she's definitely chestnut! Plain bay mare produced %50 chestnuts with the smae mating (10 foals) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the Sunnieflax Clique, IDAC Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
"Poster formerly known as SQW"

MAHAL

Apr. 7, 2003, 12:44 PM

RETURN to my topic RARITY http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Well, this year I bred a perlino named MODERN ART; next year I will bred the first PERLPALELLO of the world and call him "Made in Germany" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Course he will have German Warmblood paper, not registerd PERLPALELLO.

Thank you for the interest on my topic http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

MAHAL

***Home of Mahal***
exclusively colored German Warmblood
horses with world class bloodline
www.coloredfoals.com (http://www.coloredfoals.com)

[This message was edited by MAHAL on Apr. 07, 2003 at 05:04 PM.]

[This message was edited by MAHAL on Apr. 07, 2003 at 05:05 PM.]

Norsire

Apr. 7, 2003, 12:54 PM

Flsgordon, this will give you all the possiblities for your question asked.
http://www.horsecolor.com/dilutions/cream/foal_chart.htm

But, they don't have Perlpalello on the charts yet. I'm sure they will add it once they discover Mahal's Genetic Perlino wonder from Palomino/Cremello breeding! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

[This message was edited by Norsire on Apr. 07, 2003 at 05:05 PM.]

Spot

Apr. 7, 2003, 12:58 PM

you know something - that "Perlpalello" is kinda catchy! (thanks again Nikita for the laughs!)

I envision something in a pearlescent purpley colour with perhaps ice blue eyes to go along with it?

How would we make one of them?

Im thinking maybe a blue roan crossed with a perlino???

"Spot"

MAHAL

Apr. 7, 2003, 12:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MAHAL:
RETURN to my topic RARITY http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Well, this year I bred a perlino named MODERN ART; next year I will bred the first PERLPALELLO of the world and call him "Made in Germany" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Course he will have German Warmblood paper, not registerd PERLPALELLO.

Thank you for the interest on my topic http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

MAHAL

***Home of Mahal***
exclusively colored German Warmblood
horses with world class bloodline
http://www.coloredfoals.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MAHAL

Apr. 7, 2003, 01:18 PM

hoppla sorry
double post http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
I forgot the photo
of my German foal Modern Art

MAHAL

MAHAL

Apr. 7, 2003, 01:34 PM

Hi Spot,
the pic is from yesterday, today is his eye(the half)aqua marine.

Spot you have outstanding Coloured Thoroughbred
congratulation.(I have visit your webpage http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

Shopping for me on your studfarm would be great.
I loves your Thoroughbred breeding program

MAHAL

Norsire

Apr. 7, 2003, 03:35 PM

I just figured it out Mahal, you are color blind, no? If, you see light aqua blue in your last photo then I have finally figure it all out, you are COLOR BLIND! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

Little Indian

Apr. 7, 2003, 04:14 PM

but is there a way to tell the difference between a normal black and a smokey black foal? and if there is a difference, can anyone post pictures?

Nikita

Apr. 7, 2003, 04:15 PM

But little do you know that I already have a Perlpalello / Palomino Overo TB filly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think she's the first of her kind.

I'm still not sure what colour to put on the JC application though.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Palomino Leopard WB

Apr. 7, 2003, 04:21 PM

Too funny Norsire http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
You have to admitt this post has become like a train wreck you just have to look to see what MAHAL will come up with next. I can almost see her out there in a few weeks with some kind of hair dye to make certain this colt is a perlino http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
I think the site I posted is easier to understand it has little coloured horses to look at for the crosses so even a two year old could figure it out.
http://www.horsecolor.com/dilutions/cream/foal_chart.htm
CremelloxPalomino=PERLPALELLO Nikita did it she invented a new colour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as the post about the mare with the hidden creme gene...those foal pictures look like a maximum expressed Sabino to me. I wonder what the filly looked like after she shed out her foal coat.

Spot

Apr. 7, 2003, 04:25 PM

Nikita - you idiot. Now everyone knows about our perlpalello filly. Good going... it was supposed to be a secret until she hit the shows ...

Little indian - I asked the same question to a color genetic friend of mine, and here was her repsonse:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>What makes you certain that a foal either is, or is not, a smoky black?

There is no way to be CERTAIN, unless the horse has a cremello/perlino
parent, or has produced a foal that proves they have the gene.

There are clues, though. I have two fillies that I'm sure are smoky
blacks. But, I can't say I'm absolutely certain, not until they produce a
palomino or something, or if & when UC Davis releases it's Cream gene test to the public.

>What are the telltale signs that convince you one way or the other that
>they are / are not?

First of all, they will be born black. Either jet-black, or the more common "pewter-grey" of a black foal. (Nobody knows why some black foals are born jet black, and some -- maybe most -- are born that funny grey color, but that's just the way it is. <g&gthttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif At birth the skin often looks pinkish, and the eyes are often blue, and there are usually these big tufts of golden hair inside the ears. All
those things together would have made me sure he was a smoky black, even if his sire was palomino instead of cremello.

BUT, I have heard of smoky blacks that didn't have some or all of those things, and I have also heard of regular blacks that had blue eyes at birth (although I personally suspect they were the darker "baby blue" eyes rather
than these bright blue eyes I saw on my smoky blacks, but I can't say that for sure), and have even heard of one breeder who claims that her black foals have lighter hair inside the ears, and she has no Cream gene anywhere
in her herd. So...... none of them are foolproof. :-(
(They will be born looking like a black foal, though. Foal coat can be very helpful in telling a sun-faded black, or smoky black, apart from a very dark seal brown, for example. The seal brown would be born looking
bay.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hope this helps

"Spot"

MAHAL

Apr. 7, 2003, 04:40 PM

Palomino Leopard WB
you have a super member name
have you to do with palomino or palomino spotted(leopard) sorry I know not the name in German.
In German is a leopard a cat http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif and not a horse.
Have you horses? you are breeder of horses, have you a stud farm? Have you a Stallion,or what is your breed. Please let me know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

MAHAL

Little Indian

Apr. 7, 2003, 05:01 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif <-not an eek, a jaw drop. wow. beautiful Spot. I want one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif lol for as long as i can remember i've wanted a jet black minimal tobiano horse with blue eyes and a little arrow on it's butt making it have a white tail. *continues to dream* I'm happy with my new sabino wesfalen though http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://pic5.picturetrail.com:80/VOL85/948544/1769578/20927703.jpg
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

suecoo

Apr. 7, 2003, 05:45 PM

I don't know if this will help any, but a few days ago I posted about this article:

http://www.thehorse.com/news.asp?fid=4246

Does the identification of this gene not assist in determining whether or not a horse would be considered one or the other?

Just asking, I'm totally ignorant to color genetics. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Life without horses is possible, but pointless......

Norsire

Apr. 7, 2003, 05:49 PM

Mahal, Palomino Leopard WB has a palomino leapord wb by Apollon that she bought from your buddy Gwen in Germany! She bought him inutero, I believe. Palomino Leopard the site I posted for dilute colors is the same one, and it can be read by kids!

Nikita, how much do you want for your Perlpalello? I have to have her!!! She is mine! Sorry, Spot she is mine. I guess you will have to give up on showing her this year. She would be the shocker at Upperville in June with my white colt and overo TB filly!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

Priya

Apr. 7, 2003, 05:51 PM

Hey Spot is that Guaranteed Gold's smokey black foal? The kid looks familiar http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I've attached a pic of a smokey black colt by our TB stallion out of a seal bay mare. Neat colt!

Gold

Coloured Horses....Oh My!
http://www.trinitybreeders.on.ca

MyShadeOfPink

Apr. 7, 2003, 05:55 PM

Question!
not to stir anything up or question anything.... but how is this horse a palomino?
http://www.coloredfoals.com/purI.htm#Golden Horses Purchase I
all the way to the bottom, named Marfil

::Jennie::
"Nothing of me is original. I am the combined effort of everybody I've ever known."-Invisible Monsters

Spot

Apr. 7, 2003, 05:58 PM

Little Indian - he is STUNNING! Wowzer - how old is he ?

GGold - you are correct - the smokey black is GG's kid http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Your picture is the later one - the one I posted was him literally as he popped out, still wet!

Norsire - I will literally shoot Nikita. NO ONE was supposed to know about this foal - thats why I never posted her on my web site http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Now the cat is out of the bag ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"Spot"

Nikita

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:03 PM

I guess being a crappy emailer left me out of the loop. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Your colt is stunning! The blue eyes against the dark hair is gorgeous. Probably why I like blue eyed brunettes more than blue eyed blonds. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif What a beauty!

Norsire - DId you notice how MY filly became "OUR" filly in Spot's post? As if having TB's in bay & white, palomino, various chestnut and white and palomino and white wasn't enough! Greedy bugger isn't she?

This thread has become totally bizarre! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Gucci Cowgirl

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikita:
This thread has become totally bizarre! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you hink I've made popcorn and got a comfy chair? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"I'll allow the baby-eating silliness, but y'all can't just ramble on about everything under the sun out here." - Erin

Norsire

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:08 PM

Myshadeofpink, that is not a palomino at all. It looks like it was born buckskin and is greying out now that his foal coat is sheding out, but then again, he belongs to Mahal, so she can make up any color she wants and then try to convince you of the color she has put on the horse. Mahal, this is getting embarassing. Please study up on color gentics. How long have you been breeding colored sporthorses? The sire from the black and white photos looks to be a grey which is were the grey came from. What next? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

Norsire

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:14 PM

Gold Card has a very rare foal, that I will post tomorrow, after I go to Lizards house and have her scan them. He is a smokey creme with blue eyes, plus he is a curly. I will keep you guessing, but the mare was not a curly??!! I have photos of him at birth and then months later, with some great shots of his head and eyes. Stay tuned! This is not a joke,,,it really is real!!!

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

Little Indian

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:26 PM

he's a 7 year old wesfalen who came in from belgium the fay after christmas

Erin

Apr. 7, 2003, 06:55 PM

Can you people PLEASE stop sniping at each other? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif You all are adults, surely you can act like it...

Tin

Apr. 7, 2003, 07:01 PM

adults smadults! Very amusing! Oh and beautiful horses all around everyone!!!

Am very pleased with myself that I have 4 very boring colours horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~ Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once ~

Palomino Leopard WB

Apr. 7, 2003, 07:48 PM

You have to admit in spite of Christine embarassing herself this has to be one of the best posts in awhile.
I don't think I have seen so many nice coloured horses in one thread.
Sorry Norsire... I think I have been laughing too hard to notice it was the same site just another page.
Atom posted her Kinsky stallion who looks like a rare smokey cream. Really a very stunning looking stallion though regardless of being a perlino or a smokey cream I love the colour.
Nikita posted her stunning filly who is a new breed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif perlpalello now how many of us are going to forget about that for awhile http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
GGold posted her rare smokey black colt and all I can say is WOW http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif what a beauty.
And all the other great coloured horses...to numerous at this point.
Little Indians horse, I wouldn't trade him for anything very handsome boy.
AND YES MAHAL I do own the only should I say EXCLUSIVE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Deutsches Reitpferd Palominotigerschecke.

Silly Mommy

Apr. 7, 2003, 08:23 PM

Ummm,

Just wondering why, when I was tooling around MAHAL's site (just out of curiosity of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) my computer went ballistic! All of a sudden a zillion screens started popping up to the point that I had to shut my computer off the ol' fashioned way before it imploded. Sure hope ther wasn't anything wrong with the site. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Running virus scan now...

Proud member of the Sunnieflax Clique, IDAC Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
"Poster formerly known as SQW"

alexandra

Apr. 7, 2003, 08:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MAHAL:
Palomino Leopard WB
you have a super member name
have you to do with palomino or palomino spotted(leopard) sorry I know not the name in German.
In German is a leopard a cat http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif and not a horse.
Have you horses? you are breeder of horses, have you a stud farm? Have you a Stallion,or what is your breed. Please let me know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

MAHAL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Mahal:
In German the expression Leopard is also an expression for a spotted horse (Tigerschecke). I have heard it used by some people, but that was ages ago, since our vaulting horse (Voltigierpferd) was a spotted horse.
Regards
Alexandea

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

alexandra

Apr. 7, 2003, 09:00 PM

To all of you: seeing little Indians Sabino and beeing not familiar with pinto horses: Is a Sabino a colored horse that has a regular coat and it's white comes from the legs upward ? And having a white lower lip ?

If so, I am very very excited right now. (Jumping up and down on my chair.) Yippppeeee I bred a colored horse last year !. And the first Hanoverian branded, too. Unfortunately he is meanwhile in the US, but I will tell his new owner that he has an even more special foal as he already thinks.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

alexandra

Apr. 7, 2003, 09:01 PM

And a second.
In movement:

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

Little Indian

Apr. 7, 2003, 09:09 PM

along with the four high whites my guy has a jagged blaze
http://pic5.picturetrail.com:80/VOL85/948544/1769578/20980386.jpg
and a roan patch on the left side of his face
http://pic7.picturetrail.com:80/VOL188/1012576/1888822/22493926.jpg
http://pic7.picturetrail.com:80/VOL188/1012576/1888822/22493881.jpg
here's the better picture of it
http://pic7.picturetrail.com:80/VOL188/1012576/1888822/23030268.jpg
i will try and find a better picture of it in a second

Palomino Leopard WB

Apr. 7, 2003, 10:31 PM

Alexandra, not only does it look like your colt is a minimal white sabino, but from what I can see of the mare in both pictures she is as well.
The socks on both horses come to irregular points as well as the facial markings.
Very nice looking colt.

aurum

Apr. 7, 2003, 10:37 PM

Alexandra that colt is definitely a Sabino. Mahal also has a Sabino Hanoverian colt. The funny thing is that the Hanoverians don't accept Pintos, well here we already know of two http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

alexandra

Apr. 7, 2003, 11:40 PM

Wow !!!
I bred a colored foal !

The mare has a huuuuuuge blaze and white mouth. Her mum has a belly spot and white hairs around the top of the tail and in the tail.
The full sister to my mare had a pony foals (she is very small) by Constantin a famous Welsh B. The foal from last year has dark spots in his blaze. Have to see if I find pictures of him.

And my mare has some darker sports (only a few but she has them).

How interesting that is. I must have tested her for her genes. But this year she hat a dark bay filly with just a big star. Well the stallion is suppossed to be homoze.... - argh spelling, you know what I mean - for dark bay or black.

You can see the blaze of that mare on my homepage under mares and Riou. I have to scan through my pictures to see if I can find more where you can see the markings better and put them on my homepage. A picture of her as foal can be seen in the galery.

Hey, both (mare and colt) are branded Hanoverian ! I cheated them !!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

And since the mare has an Oldenburg approved and much used sire, she would be pretty sure be entered in the German Oldenburg mare book. So she could be used for breeding Oldenburg pintos. Very interesting. I was thinking about selling her anyway. New options with that information.

This topic is not only weird, it is getting educational.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

[This message was edited by alexandra on Apr. 08, 2003 at 03:50 AM.]

banjocat

Apr. 8, 2003, 12:11 AM

Someone asked about the Barlink dilution, the recently discovered gene that on top of a single creme gene can make a horse *look* like a double dilute creme (e.g. cremello). In brief, one copy (with no accompanying creme gene) dilutes the skin but not the coat and two copies moderately dilute the coat. It also enhances the effect of a single creme gene, if present. These guys can look like double dilutes, or like champagnes, but genotypically they are not so won't reproduce like them. You can read a little about this at the champagne registry site, linked below:
Barlink info - scroll to NEWS heading (http://www.ichregistry.com/not_champagne.htm)

A little more info is linked from there in a word doc; I don't know if this will work but I'll try linking to the google html version of that document:
html version of Carolyn Shepard's Barlink document, from google cache (http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:MPdmNJbOYY8C:www.ichregistry.com/Barlink%2520article.doc&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

The Barlink dilution traces to a Paint. Silver dapple can indeed make a bay look chestnut, or adding a creme gene look palomino (though the pics of those I've seen look like silver haired buckskins), but it's pretty rare or nonexistant in most breeds. Neither are at all likely in these warmbloods, unless they've got some interesting backgrounds.. But hey, who knows when the next funky color mutation will turn up? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The new edition of Sponenberg's Equine Color Genetics is finally out. Essential reading for anyone breeding for color. Also, there are numerous resources online (some previously linked) discussing color genetics. Though be warned, some of the color websites are more accurate than others. (and if anyone wants to see some *really* creative thoughts on what genetics can give you a rare color, check out some of the horses people advertise as "grullas".)

MAHAL

Apr. 8, 2003, 12:13 AM

to MyShadeofPink

Question!
not to stir anything up or question anything.... but how is this horse a palomino?
http://www.coloredfoals.com/purI.htm#Golden Horses Purchase I
all the way to the bottom, named Marfil

Marfil, the associaiton ZfDP give him Palomino paper! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
He was born as a palomino and is registered as Palomino pony with the association "ZfdP". Many of the horses registered with the ZfdP do have Palomino papers but are sorrel or buckskin. Marfil's color(Marfil is the spanish word for "Elfenbein") grew grey. His full brother was born as buckskin,but he have Deutsche Reitpony paper!

See the photo of Marfil as foal

MAHAL

***Home of Mahal***
exclusively colored German Warmblood
horses with world class bloodline
www.coloredfoals.com (http://www.coloredfoals.com)

Spot

Apr. 8, 2003, 02:47 AM

Little Indian ... W http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifO http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifW! is all I can say!

he is even better looking in these photos than in the first one you posted!

Strong sabino for sure! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Alexandra - lovely colt too - VERY definately sabino!

Erin - party pooper ... just when we were starting to have some fun discovering new colors AND breeds! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif...

"Spot"

atom

Apr. 8, 2003, 03:26 AM

to Palomino Leopard Warmblood,

thank you for the nice compliment in the Kinsky Horse what I posted. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifHe is a very good horse with great movement and a special gentle character.

You are right, that is very nice collection of colored horses.

Mandy
home of "Atom"
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

Mandy

Daydream Believer

Apr. 8, 2003, 03:42 AM

I'm the one who brought up the silver gene...it is possible that one of the "perlino's" parents could be a bay masked with the silver gene. Incidentally, it is found in warmbloods..particularly Dutch WB's. It is much more common in ponies though such as Welsh, Shetlands, and Connemaras. I really do doubt he is a true perlino though as I agree that his coat and eyes are just too dark. I'd buy into smokey cream though if he's proven to have a black gene. Palomino is so much more likely than anything else given what we know about his sire and dam.

I have to point out, pinto breeders help me here, but that "medicine hat" on Mahals website isn't a true medicine hat is it? I thought they were only supposed to have a bonnet and shield on the chest...hence "warbonnet" to be a true medicine hat pinto. I could be wrong but thought I'd mention that.

Jeanette Gower's book states that fading black babies are born charcoal black or even brownish. My filly is fading black and she was born charcoal. A jet black baby is born black or bluish black according to her. I'll attach a pictures of a fading black 6 hour old filly for comparison to the smokey black baby.

"Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig. He just looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal" Winston Churchill
"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

aurum

Apr. 8, 2003, 04:21 AM

Daydream Believer you are correct on the Medicine Hat, but since nobody could convince Mahal about her Palomino not being a Perlino, how will you convince her now that her Medicine Hat is no Medicine Hat at all? He is a tovero (Sabino and Tobiano), but Medicine Hats do only have the hat on and do not have any connections to face markings at all like this colt has on the whole left side. Also the light buckskin colt Brisco is a greyed out Buckskin and Marfil is a greyed out Palomino. I don't know why it is so difficult to agree on the correct descriptions. Doesn't make sense to me.

My pony mare Lady and my stallion Juanito had a foal that had only a hat on and a small dot on the chest, so I guess that was a War Bonnet. I was thinking that I could never sell such a horse, but the day came and a girl jumped on "Jolly Joker" saying that this is exactly all she ever wanted: a grey horse and a Pinto, so here she has the total white and the Pinto in one. Well she bought him http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

[This message was edited by aurum on Apr. 08, 2003 at 08:29 AM.]

pintofoal

Apr. 8, 2003, 04:24 AM

Here is a fairly accurate description and photos of a medicine hat:

http://www.equiworld.net/uk/horsecare/Breeds/medicinehathorse/index.htm

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

atom

Apr. 8, 2003, 04:34 AM

I have also a question for the color experts
( sorry Mahal, thats not a answer to your foals but in this thread so many colored horse are postet )

I posted in attach a picture of a mare. i´m not sure is this a cremello or what is it ? She has aqua blue eyes, but her tail and mane are darker and also she has a darker shine on her body.

Can you help me ?

Thank you
Mandy
Home of "Atom"
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

aurum

Apr. 8, 2003, 04:45 AM

Atom: that it not really clear to see. The tail is darker at the end so it could be a little darker from dirt. If she has darker mane and tail that horse would be a Perlino if she has those light blue eyes like cremellos have. In fact your gelding truly looks more like a rare smoky cream if you look at the Andalusian smoky cream on the double dilute site. Do you have another picture of that mare showing her better and with also the mane? From the picture she does not even look like blue eyes and pink skin.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Norsire

Apr. 8, 2003, 04:52 AM

Atom, what color were the dam and sire? Do you know?

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

Daydream Believer

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:01 AM

Thanks for the info on the medicine hats and the link. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig. He just looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal" Winston Churchill
"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

atom

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:06 AM

to Aurum and Norsire:

thank you for the help.
The mare has a darker tail and she has light blue eyes as like a cremello.
At her body is also a darker shine.
I will look for another picture of her.
The sire was a palomino and but I don`t no which color was the dam.

Thank you
Mandy
Home of "Atom"
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

Dunhorse

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:14 AM

I am coming in on this disscussion late and I just have to reply to one of the posts.

My husband and I run a small horse farm in eastern NC. We have had our first Cremello; which was supposed to be a palomino, but may be one that broke the rules. She has pink skin, 2 blue eyes, and is VERY, VERY light; beautiful. Her dam is a Barlink mare which have been known to "hide" a creme gene in a chestnut.

Well, after reading and re-reading all postings to this topic, I learned that it is NOT possible to bred a cremello out of a chestnut mare???
Soooooo, guys, and WHY is that foal a cremello???

That is easy. The foal is NOT a cremello.

The foal is also not a maximal sabino, although that is an extremly good guess.

That foal is actually the product of a newly discovered gene, so new it was only described in the last year.

The gene is apparently an incomplete dominant gene which has been called Barlink Factor. In a single dose, barlink factor dilutes only the skin, not the hair coat, resulting in a "normal" horse color and pink mottling of the skin. In a double dose, barlink factor produces a horse with dilute skin AND dilute hair coat, resulting in a horse which appears remarkably like a champagne of whichever base coat. MOST homozygous barlink horses which are currently known happened to be on a chestnut base and look very like a gold champange.

If you combine Barlink Factor with one cream gene, you will get a false cremello such as the foal being described. This horse is NOT a cremello as it is a product of two entirely seperate genes. It does however mimic a homozygous cream horse very well!

Please see the following link for more details.
http://www.ichregistry.com/Barlink%20article.doc

I hope this helps.

As to the other part of the discussion, i.e. if that foal is perlino or not, my conclusion is that Mahal has just wasted the money for a red factor test. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The foal appears to be a palomino. As other posters have stated, the foal does NOT have the light blue eyes of a double dilute, nor does he have the bright pink skin. Therefore he could not be a double dilute of any sort.

Due to his parentage, he can only have inherited a copy of the red gene from each parent, because that is all they have to give him.

The only way this foal could be a perlino would be if one parent was a product of the silver dilution. That said, if silver was present in this line of horses, odds are that a bay or buckskin would have popped up long ago out of apparently chestnut based horses. And if that had happened, I am sure someone would have taken note of such an odd occurance.

As to the grandparents colors effecting the color of the offsping, the foal will only recieve the genes that the PARENTS have to give. If the parent did not inherit said gene from the grandparent, the gene is not there to give.

I hope this helps!

pintofoal

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:18 AM

One thing that I would like to address in this whole sorted topic is the breeding of Unique, rare, one of a kinds, the first and only. This is all well and good, but just because (and this IS NOT DIRECTED at anyone in particular) a horse is the first or the only or a rarity doesn't make it a good horse, or maybe it's a good horse but not necessarily a great horse. Of course every breed or type at some point or another had to be the first or the only, but I think what is more important is being one of the best or being at the top of "several". There is no gauge to measure against and "only" or a "first" I really hope that colored breeders or any breeders for that matter striving for something NEW (Such as a more modern type, etc.) don't over look the most important aspect of breeding and that is quality. I know this is a really fundamental and I'm not trying to be redundant, but lets not forget quality then add in the color as our goals. I am not saying this about any of the horses posted here and I also don't want to sound like a hypocrite, I've had some "firsts" and "only" but being the "firsts and only NEVER lasts long, others WILL come along and as the old saying goes "quality lasts" so let's all bear that in mind as we strive for our unique breeding goals--there will be others, but will yours be one of the best, will yours be of quality? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Again this is NOT directed at anyone in particular, just a generalized statement/thought.

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

Dunhorse

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:34 AM

I read a couple more pages and I see that banjocat beat me to the barlink factor thing. LOL.

Sorry about the duplicate post.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

aurum

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:45 AM

Dunhorse:
I just read about the Barlink gene, but this gene or silver dapple is not available in the Kinskys and also not in the other European WBs that I know of. It seems that Barlink gene comes from a special stallion only. I am glad you agreed with us others that only the PARENTS are responsible for a foal's coat color and that THIS particular colt is definitely a Palomino. In addition it looks totally like a newborn Palomino. I have seen a lot of Palominos born in my stud farm in more than 20 years of breeding Palominos. Mahal had her one and only Palomino born in 2000 and she might have forgotten how he looked at that time.

I also agree on your signature post...God forbid!

Pintofoal:
I agree with you 100%!!! Otherwise there is no success and nobody would want to buy a horse just because it is the "one and only ..." or "first and only ...". It is the quality that comes first and this should be the main goal. But I must admit, when I have bred something new I used to write that too, because it makes a breeder proud to have been able to breed something new, even if it is not new for long. You might have a "first" for one year or even a shorter time and then there will be more as others would perhaps try to also have something that rare and with the possibilities of today (shipped semen and frozen semen), we are all able to breed what we would want. Another question is: how can one determine a "stallion prospect" in a foal that is just 2 days old?

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Nikita

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:46 AM

Your speech is directed at me, isn't it? I can't believe the jealousy on this board at times. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif First Spot with all of her beautiful horses, and now YOU. You know, most people would kill for even ONE of your horses. Heck I'd trade my hubby for a breeding to one of your boys! (please?) Is it that hard to accept that sometimes a backyard breeder can produce somthing like my perlpalello filly? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Seriously http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif even though we can have lots of fun with the colours, the real goals of breeding far out weigh the colour and I think most of us are fully aware of that. I'm just as proud of my 'normal' coloured babies because they are outstanding individuals in their own right. But it doesn't mean I don't still hope for that little spot or neat colour to pop out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I've really enjoyed this thread - I've learned a few things and I love seeing all of these gorgeous horses.

pintofoal

Apr. 8, 2003, 06:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Your speech is directed at me, isn't it? I can't believe the jealousy on this board at times. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OH NO Nikita http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif you figured me out...caught me red handed. I am green with envy. Damn you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif I wanted to be the first to breed a pintoperlpalello!!! But don't you worry my pretty...I will bred a BETTER pintoperlpalello then you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

sketcher

Apr. 8, 2003, 07:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pintofoal:
[QUOTE] I wanted to be the first to breed a pintoperlpalello!!!
Liz Hall http://silverwoodfarm.com
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How long before someone creates an angloappapintoperlpalello? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I woulld think one of those would be extremely valuable and sought after...

Apr. 8, 2003, 07:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MyShadeOfPink:
Question!
not to stir anything up or question anything.... but how is this horse a palomino?
http://www.coloredfoals.com/purI.htm#Golden Horses Purchase I
all the way to the bottom, named Marfil
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know the colors of the parents, but I think Marfil is probably a palomino going grey. Chestnut-based horses going gray can do some funky funky things, like turn a dark steely gray before lightening. I think that's what's happening here.

That smokey black colt - WOW! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Janeway

Apr. 8, 2003, 08:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sketcher:
angloappapintoperlpalello? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nah, I'd rather have a perlpalellopintaloosa http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MAHAL

Apr. 8, 2003, 08:46 AM

Hellooooooo again return to my topic RARITY!!!

Thank for the interest on all my exclusively
Horses.
Thank you so muchhhhhh http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
My topic is for Modern Art

to Aurum
Myself write I have a stallion prospect then I
have a stallion prospect for ME. Look at your own
website what you write that is .............. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
A example

*** Gestüt Falkenhorst is known for having produced 7 approved and graded breeding stallions*** but you write not
.................... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

we are the largest and highest quality colored Warmblood stud farm in the world and we continue to exceed your highest expectations, which our horses have earned us.
Do not be fooled by imitations.Though many have tried to duplicate our success, the quality that is the foundation of our 20 year breeding program is second to none.

YOU FORGOT EQUUS KINSKY WARMBLOOD STUDFARM
SINCE 1838

I can never heard your publicity

etc etc etc....
and now no more comments.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=55160312&r=41660512#41660512

I be very happy for my first Topic, please make your own topic for your own breed,
not you must always stand in the middel point.

At the moment is my colt MODERN ART the star on my topic and for me he is a golden star

MAHAL

alexandra

Apr. 8, 2003, 08:48 AM

Thanks Pintofoal for that speach ! Quality should be the goal, interesting color is the icing on the cake.

I also enjoyed this thread. I learned some things e.g. Sabino pattern in my ordinary hanoverian horses.

mumble, mumble but still - I am a breeder that has one of the first known about hanoverian Sabinos....mumble mumble .... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

Medievalist

Apr. 8, 2003, 08:50 AM

This is the funniest thing that I have read in a long time. You all are hilarious.

And just so you can all be jealous, I am posting a photo of my rare colored horse who is a double nondilute reverse appaloosa. Eat your hearts out, perlpalello breeders!

June 10th, 2003. D(idi)-Day.....Le Retour Part II
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)
See our flyer to learn more! (http://pub179.ezboard.com/fthetackroom17816frm7.showMessage?topicID=18.topic )

Priya

Apr. 8, 2003, 08:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I am a breeder that has one of the first known about hanoverian Sabinos <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just had to giggle a bit Alexandra, cause there are TONS of sabino Hanoverians in Germany and in NA. I hate to burst your bubble, but just look at For Pleasure(Furioso II/Grannus) who was Hanoverian Stallion of the year in 2000....he is a sabino and even had a belly spot! Now that is one nice horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gold

Coloured Horses....Oh My!
http://www.trinitybreeders.on.ca

alexandra

Apr. 8, 2003, 09:00 AM

Oh ggold, you are not nice, I make a joke and you destoy it immediately http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Actually I wanted to post about For leasure and ask whether he might be a Sabino. Thought of him at the moment I read all the info given in the posted links.
Regards

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

aurum

Apr. 8, 2003, 09:02 AM

Alexandra there is also the well known Trakehner stallion Charlie Chaplin who is definitely also a Sabino. Another Trakehner stallion with Sabino genetics was V.I.P.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Nikita

Apr. 8, 2003, 09:02 AM

Psssttt... GGold - I think that was said tongue in cheek. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Medievalist - Ahhhh... but wouldn't that be special with purple spots? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Either way there will probably be a run on nondilute reverse appy's in the near future. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

MAHAL - We're all guilty of taking over your thread. But I'm sure nobody is trying to take away from your beautiful colt. Your initial topic has lead to a very good learning thread, along with some pictures of horses I had never had the pleasure of seeing before, as well as some silliness. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As far as the perlpalellopintaloosa or the angloappapintoperlpalello..... try saying that 3 times fast!

Well back to doing what horses are all about... lots of shovelling. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

alexandra

Apr. 8, 2003, 09:03 AM

I know Charly Chaplin. He is ridden by Chrsitoph von Daehne. Very nice horse and approved Hanoverian, too. Was thinking about breeding to him once.

Thanks Nikita, you got it !!!

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

Apr. 8, 2003, 10:37 AM

Mahal - unfortunately (or sometimes fortunately!) it's quite common for a thread to be hijacked such as yours has been. That's they way of forums. Trust me, no one has forgotten why this all started, and we will all be anxioiusly awaiting pictures of your beautiful foal in the days and weeks and months to come http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MyShadeOfPink

Apr. 8, 2003, 10:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MAHAL:
to MyShadeofPink

Question!
not to stir anything up or question anything.... but how is this horse a palomino?
http://www.coloredfoals.com/purI.htm#Golden Horses Purchase I
all the way to the bottom, named Marfil

Marfil, the associaiton ZfDP give him Palomino paper! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
He was born as a palomino and is registered as Palomino pony with the association "ZfdP". Many of the horses registered with the ZfdP do have Palomino papers but are sorrel or buckskin. Marfil's color(Marfil is the spanish word for "Elfenbein") grew grey. His full brother was born as buckskin,but he have Deutsche Reitpony paper!

See the photo of Marfil as foal

MAHAL

***Home of Mahal***
exclusively colored German Warmblood
horses with world class bloodline
http://www.coloredfoals.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow theirs really no need to cop an attitude. Sorry I asked a question.

::Jennie::
"Nothing of me is original. I am the combined effort of everybody I've ever known."-Invisible Monsters

Medievalist

Apr. 8, 2003, 10:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikita:
Medievalist - Ahhhh... but wouldn't that be special with purple spots? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Either way there will probably be a run on nondilute reverse appy's in the near future. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, you know, people try to tell me he's "just a bay" because his mom was bay and his dad was bay and all his grandparents were bay. Dammit though, I know they're wrong! I mean, just look at him! He sooooooo obviously has the double nondilute appaloosa genes. duhhhhhhhhhhhh http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I think they were just hidden behind his other genes and for some reason only show after he is clipped nekkid in october!

June 10th, 2003. D(idi)-Day.....Le Retour Part II
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)
See our flyer to learn more! (http://pub179.ezboard.com/fthetackroom17816frm7.showMessage?topicID=18.topic )

sketcher

Apr. 8, 2003, 11:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
my rare colored horse who is a double nondilute reverse appaloosa. Eat your hearts out, perlpalello breeders!
_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would you get if you crossed him with a
perlpalellopintaloosa? I can't find it on the color chart anywhere. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Spot

Apr. 8, 2003, 11:17 AM

sketcher - I think then Medievalist would have the world's first, unique, rare, one of a kind, one and only .... ta da !!!!

doublepaloosaperlpalellopintoloosa!

Now Liz - I defy ANYONE else to create one of those!
I think Medievalist could keep that claim forever and ever ...

"Spot"

alexandra

Apr. 8, 2003, 11:23 AM

Yes and I have to insist on my sabohanocolori !!!

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

aurum

Apr. 8, 2003, 11:29 AM

Alexandra that sounds very much like a tasty chocolate, mmmmmh!

How about trying for a Sabocrematello?

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

flshgordon

Apr. 8, 2003, 11:47 AM

Where's that cat-fighting icon???? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MAHAL--why does it matter if others have taken over your post and for the most part turned it into something educational (and the rest just keeping it lighthearted so no one kills anyone!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif)

I for one have learned a lot, had a good laugh, decided what color I want my next horse to be http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and enjoyed seeing some beautiful horses. I'm sure we all look forward to seeing pictures of your boy grow up, no matter what color he is

***HOORAY--it's a filly!!!!***

Janeway

Apr. 8, 2003, 11:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by aurum:
Alexandra that sounds very much like a tasty chocolate, mmmmmh!

How about trying for a Sabocrematello?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so does yours except with marshmallows in it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Astraled

Apr. 8, 2003, 12:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by alexandra:

This topic is not only weird, it is getting educational.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For some reason, I find the above terribly funny http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

__________________________
If you cheapskate me into hell, I'll haunt you good

Dunhorse

Apr. 8, 2003, 12:16 PM

Aurum, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The Barlink gene came from the apha stallion, Barlink Macho Man, as well as through decendants of his maternal granddam, My Tontime.

I was not meaning to imply that the WB horses which were being discussed could carry the barlink factor. I was simply replying to vanilla & black's challenge to explain an apparent cremello with a chestnut parent.

The reference to the silver dilution was simply to explain black based colors which result from breeding horses which seem to be chestnut based. This type of phenomenon is what causes people who have not studied up on coat color genetics to believe that genes can come down from the grandparents when they are NOT carried by the parents.

I am sorry for any confusion. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LOL. Of course I agreed that a parent can not pass on a gene which it does not have in the first place. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That is absolute basic genetic principal!

YOu have certainly seen your share of newborn palominos, and what I have seen in pictures and in life is directly in line with your findings.

I also agree that Marfil looks to be a palomino going grey. If you would like to look at another confirmed palomino going grey, go to Ladybughills site, http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/ , and check out Rou under past horses.

That said:
Hear, Hear Pintofoal! An excellent summary of what color breeding should be all about!

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

Tin

Apr. 8, 2003, 12:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:
sketcher - I think then Medievalist would have the world's first, unique, rare, one of a kind, one and only .... ta da !!!!

doublepaloosaperlpalellopintoloosa!

Now Liz - I defy ANYONE else to create one of those!
I think Medievalist could keep that claim forever and ever ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*clears throat* ladies and gentlemen, for your viewing pleasure I wish to introduce Reggie, the first ever

Doublepaloosaperlpalellopintoloosa!! (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RwAAAJ4VxBLFPhAPj0YLrmRXdDh76hu*o5kh4o6CvrdOtB*Ba vuwrC8B8S6B1pS9iu*oStHL58VwxaVV3jxLS8P2nD*7cfVvKng Nw3Vkzwk/Waiting.jpg?dc=4675386734704764290)

You can see the tell tale sign of such a colour by the black dot on his butt and white smear (yes, it's a breeders term) on his foot. He was gelding by his last owners but he's having a reversal on friday, breeding starts at $10,000 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~ Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once ~

Spot

Apr. 8, 2003, 01:27 PM

Tin - I dont think so, but good try - obviously you are not exactly conversant with the more exotic breeds like I am.

Here is an excellent example of a doublepaloosaperlpalellopintoloosa

The telltale signs are the weedy looking sparse tail, the spotting on the rump, and the purple tone throughout.

"Spot"
(who is obviously having a slow day and needed a diversion of sorts!)

Wowelsh

Apr. 8, 2003, 01:30 PM

Well, I was trying to stay out of this, but I can't stand it anymore...I have to tell all of you that I have the world's one and only Zeb-perlpalellopintoloosa. Here is a picture of him at his inspection...the inspector is looking closely to see if he has all of the proper characteristics and if they're in the right colors. Can you believe he was foaled solid purple and by/out of bay parents??

Leah McFarlin
Winding Oaks Welsh & Sport Ponies
Morriston, FL
www.wowelsh.com (http://www.wowelsh.com)

pintofoal

Apr. 8, 2003, 01:31 PM

Come on Spot that is a pimpleloosa! don't try to pull a fast one on us!

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

Tin

Apr. 8, 2003, 01:38 PM

Now your just being silly Spot, I mean come on- your just jealous because I have a real one and you don't!

~ Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once ~

Spot

Apr. 8, 2003, 01:45 PM

Pintofoal - my example a "Pimpleloosa" ??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

What the heck would you call Wowelsh's then?
(that poor poor pony - I am sure that he would be mortified if he knew what pictures you were flashing around the Internet of him! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

Gawd - I hope some poor outsider doesnt come on this thread and figure the whole lot of us colour breeders are certifiably nuts!

"Spot"

ShowBiz

Apr. 8, 2003, 01:56 PM

Stop the madness!!! This thread it too funny!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

**Finally...found my dream horse! He's coming home in April!**

Norsire

Apr. 8, 2003, 02:15 PM

OK, Ms. Lizard Graphics...it is time for you to crate a wonder horse of color. With your graphic skills, you need to come up with something very orginial!!! I did not make it to Liz's to get the smokey creme colt up yet that is also a full blown curly. I was out all day selling shacks and you guys have been having a blast while I was out working!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Not Fair! I wanta play too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm off to do my home work for tomorrows adventure of showing more shacks!!! God only knows what I will find here when I come back!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

Janeway

Apr. 8, 2003, 02:47 PM

I've one-upped you all!

I have an Olympic Pinkaloosa! Now beat that one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Spot

Apr. 8, 2003, 03:53 PM

Janeway - not bad!

But - I NOW have all of you beat!

I didnt want to make this public just yet, but we have the World's First, The One and Only, the Unique and Incredible - black & palomino sabino TB.
he is a full brother to Sato, and a 1997 stallion.

If anyone would like any information on breeding to Otas - please contact me.

Thank you!

"Spot"

sketcher

Apr. 8, 2003, 04:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pintofoal:
Come on Spot that is a pimpleloosa! don't try to pull a fast one on us!

Liz Hall http://silverwoodfarm.com
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nuh Uh.. If it were a true pipmleloosa, it would have to have a doublepaloosaperlpalellopintoloosa parent in the third generation back on the dam's side. CLEARLY this isn't the case here.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

GotSpots

Apr. 8, 2003, 04:38 PM

Well, I had thought I could keep him hidden, but I have the first purpapintozebrello in the world. All of you poser zebrellos and pintozebrellos out there should note the cream and burgundy striping, an obvious indication of the double dilute cross-patterned innate duct-striping marker. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Norsire

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:33 PM

Gotspots, I love your colored horse. It reminds me of a pinto war pony, with it's war paint on.

Serious question, does a smokey black have aqua blue eyes, just like all the perlinos, cremellos, smokey cremes and ect? I would guess they do. I know of a site that is claiming it has a smokey black filly, but it has dark brown eyes. It is a palomino crossed with a darkbay/brown...I don't think this is possible is it? I will have to go check my color charts. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

Wowelsh

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:38 PM

Norsire,

From what I've read/seen, some smokey blacks have blue eyes at birth, but they darken quickly.

HTH,

Leah McFarlin
Winding Oaks Welsh & Sport Ponies
Morriston, FL
www.wowelsh.com (http://www.wowelsh.com)

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:53 PM

The www.doubledilute.com (http://www.doubledilute.com) site indicates that smokey blacks don't necessarily have anything visible that differentiates them from true blacks. So ??

Nikita

Apr. 8, 2003, 05:56 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

pintofoal

Apr. 8, 2003, 06:29 PM

Ok I have you all beat, but I can't find the orginal a really good photo of this, that I posted here a while ago, so sorry it's small. Would love to work some more wonders on the old computer, but its failing in it's old age--I go throw these poor machines in a year!

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

Palomino Leopard WB

Apr. 8, 2003, 06:39 PM

There was a young Trakehner stallion that we showed the USDF series with over three years that was sabino (owner was unaware) Phatt Charly who also produced horses who could be considered Pinto's. Unfortunately Charly died very young, but still has several foals expected this year that may indeed be Pinto's again with belly spots etc. and I believe a couple of last years foals had spots in other places. I too would have liked to breed to this stallion, not for his colour alone as I watched him mature and what a nice horse he was.
I had questioned in another post...and since there is no test for sabino it is hard to say how many of them are out there.
Alexandra if you cross your mare that you posted with the colt, with Charly I would bet you just might get a loud sabino.
Christine no need to get upset about your post going in another direction. Really for once we have all learned a great deal and avoided a total catfight NOW I CALL THAT PROGRESS. As far as you taking words off of Gwen's site about breeding for 20 years quality horses. She has, and you have breed to her stallions in the past so you KNOW she has. How Kinsky horses enter into Gwen's breeding program, you will have to explain...YOU FORGOT EQUUS KINSKY WARMBLOOD STUDFARM SINCE 1838
These are two totally different types of horses.
Pintofoal posted a VERY good point and one that has been a big sore spot for me. How many times have we seen horses of colour posted that were of poor quality but a nice colour? Common you have seen the horses...you look at them and think nice colour but if it weren't for the colour you wouldn't give them a second look for breeding! Stallions that should be geldings mares that should never reproduce. It happens in all breeds.
I own the FIRST Palomino Leopard German WB colt, did that automatically make him a stallion prospect? I doubt that is the first thing Gwen thought of when she produced the colt. Not in my mind either, when I first saw the pictues of him all I saw was what appeared to be a cream horse. I liked him, his conformation etc. and how he moved in his video online. But, I couldn't see his actual colour at first. Personally I cannot fault him, temperment, conformation, colour that's the way I look at a horse. In the end it will be up to what happenes at the inspection...but at the end of the day we will still have a very nice horse.
Pintofoal ownes the first approved for breeding (correct me if I am wrong in my wording please) homozygous Pinto WB, take one look at him and his ability to be a great stallion could not be questioned.
It's nice to be able to produce the first, or to have unusual horses. But I doubt anyones goal is to produce for colour only with out first thinking about quality.

artisticgold

Apr. 8, 2003, 06:44 PM

WHOA!!! You guys are BLINDING me with all these wild colored horses, I think I'm going to need to go to the eye doctor tomorrow...I'm seeing flashing lights and spots before my eyes.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Sorry, I can't compete with all these rare and artistic horses, but here's a pic of my new little 'perlino' filly...

pintofoal

Apr. 8, 2003, 06:57 PM

Artisticgold...BORING --NO NO NO just kidding!!! since shes not purple or rainbow striped it took awhile for my eyes to see sublte.

She is lovely congrats, what is her breeding?

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

EventerAJ

Apr. 8, 2003, 07:10 PM

Artisticgold-- what a beautiful baby!

~AJ~
I've been there...that's why I'm here.

artisticgold

Apr. 8, 2003, 08:15 PM

Thanks, I can't take credit for breeding her, she's by Masqueraide, and her dam was sired by Gold Apollo and is out of a Trakehner mare. I was just lucky enough to be able to buy her, she's a real sweetie. I've looked for years to find a tall, English-type double dilute mare/filly. I'm hoping to breed her to warmblood stallions for dilute-color hunter babies...

atom

Apr. 8, 2003, 10:41 PM

to Palomino Leopard Warmblood:

How Kinsky horses enter into Gwen's breeding program, you will have to explain...YOU FORGOT EQUUS KINSKY WARMBLOOD STUDFARM SINCE 1838
These are two totally different types of horses.

WHAT will you say with this statement ?

Mandy
Home of "Atom"
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

aurum

Apr. 8, 2003, 10:49 PM

Mandy I guess she means that I am not in the Equus Kinsky breeding business, which is correct. The Kinsky breed as you know, is a breed of its own. Palomino Leopard Warmblood wrote her sentence because Mahal brought that up a bit earlier in one of her last posts, please check for that one. I also do not see what MY breeding program has to do with Equus Kinsky.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

[This message was edited by aurum on Apr. 09, 2003 at 03:55 AM.]

aurum

Apr. 8, 2003, 11:26 PM

If someone is interested to read the website of the Equus Kinsky horses - sorry only BASIC OVERVIEW seems to be in English - then here is the link to them:

http://www.equus-kinsky.cz/

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

alexandra

Apr. 8, 2003, 11:30 PM

The problem ist the following: Mahal translates her German into englisch word by word. This sounds strange for a native speaker and is sometimes not understandable as one of the posters already stated. (Though I cannot find the post anymore)

It would be the same if I would say sentences like "gehen heute nach Arbeit nie" in German, when I want to say heute gehe ich nicht zur Arbeit.

So please do not jump up and be angry just because somebody misunderstood the posts.
Maybe Mahal should explain again what she meant in her post dated Apr. 08, 2003 11:46 PM and edit (change) it.
I do not want to critisize or attack anybody, because of language knowledge but that is just a fact. So take it easy, think about what might have been wrong in the post and than clearify.

(I bet I make enough mistakes, that make americans or english laugh or wonder, too. That is just the problem if corresponding in a foreign language)

I tried to explain to Mahal once before that such misunderstanding aroused because of her english expressions, but she attacked me in such a nasty way that she got almost banned from the forum.

To conclude: Gwen has nothing to do with the Kinski horse, but 20 years of experience breeding colored horses. The Kinski stud (not owned by Atom) exists since 18.. so has a long experience, too. I do not know how long Atom is breeding and I do not know how long Mahal is breeding. But this forum is not designed to fight about who has the more breeding experiences !!!

Grrr. Be nice or Erin might close this or ban all the Germans !!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

atom

Apr. 9, 2003, 02:05 AM

To Mahal:

Happy birthday to you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifHave a great day and I wish your all the best and also for your breeding program.

you have a very nice and exclusively happy Birthday present:

Your cremello warmblood mare Jasmina !!! She is such a nice and lovely horse with great movements.

All the best with this young mare.

Mandy
Home of "Atom"
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

Spot

Apr. 9, 2003, 03:03 AM

artisticgold - VERY special indeed! I like her a lot!

But - http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - just think just how much MORE special she could be with a few strategically placed colorful spots on her rump!

"Spot"

PS - oh oh ... some sand is starting to be thrown in the sandbox ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ... better stop it now or Mom (Erin!) will make us stop fighting and will send us to our rooms or corners for a *time out* (close the thread)

alexandra

Apr. 9, 2003, 03:19 AM

What a good looking mare. Which organisation is she registered with ?

Mahal do you have now pictures in movement of you foal ? I would love to see movement pictures. And also have a good day.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

Nikita

Apr. 9, 2003, 05:41 AM

Artisticgold - Stunning filly!

alexandra - Everyone should have a little bit of understanding that when translated, some things may not sound quite right. The english language does not exactly follow all the rules of grammar and spelling. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I think it's wonderful that posters, such as yourself, have the knowledge to be a part of this english board and contribute so many insights and ideas. It makes for a terrific learning experience for us all. And for someone (ME!) who is terrible in languages (including my own http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) I have a lot of admiration for anyone that has mastered a second language!

Pearls of Wisdom from Anna Nicole Smith about her still disputed settlement -
"The next man I marry is gonna already be dead"

Ladybug Hill

Apr. 9, 2003, 06:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dunhorse:

I also agree that Marfil looks to be a palomino going grey. If you would like to look at another confirmed palomino going grey, go to Ladybughills site, http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/ , and check out Rou under past horses.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do want to ask a serious question. The owner that bought Rou from me as a colt has decided after speaking to a genetics expert that he is actually a silver dapple on palomino.

His dam was a JC TB mare (palomino) and the sire was Anriejetto a grey dutch stallion. Of course the grey could hide the dominant silver dapple gene, but he should produce 50% silver dapple offspring. I have seen quite a few Anriejetto foals and have never seen one that looked silver dapple, but the owner of Rou claims that she has.

Any of you experts out there on Silver Dapple know whether Anriejetto was a known carrier of this gene?

On another note, Mahal, your colt, who is gorgeous, is colored just exactly like the palomino foals that I have had. Palomino in my opinion is so much more beautiful than the double dilutes, even if not as valuable as breeding animals. Congratulations on your healthy, beautiful foal!

Rou newborn (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/rou/5.jpg)

Rou two months (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/rou/portrait.jpg)

Rou four months (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/rou/roul3.jpg)

Rou two years (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/rou/rou1299.jpg)

Rou three years (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/rou/roumain.jpg)

Chris

Ladybug Hill--Hunters and Ponies
Specializing in Palomino TBs

ladybughillfarm.vaix.net (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net)

The Great Gazoo

Apr. 9, 2003, 06:22 AM

Wow, I can't believe that's the same horse in each picture Ladybug Hill. That's incredible! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Daydream Believer

Apr. 9, 2003, 06:30 AM

Ladybug,

The pics of Rou are really interesting. Silver's do tend to be born lighter in the mane and tail and darken up as they age. I want to point out that silver dapple refers specifically to the color produced by the silver gene on black. Check out pintofoal's pony for a true silver dapple often called a "chocolate palomino." Silver imposed on Bay gives a chestnut like color...often the horses are hard to distinguish from a true chestnut but usually have grayish manes and tail streaked with black and tan or gray points on their legs. Silver on chestnut is virtually invisible but can be passed on to foals at 50% probabilty. The prettiest silver I believe is brown with silver which comes out looking very bluish..known as a blue taffy in Australia and is very striking.

If Anriejetto does carry the silver gene and is passing on that gene than I would expect may of his "chestnut" foals are not really chestnuts. Odd are that 50% of them are silvers which is the same odds of how many are gray. The gray color is definitely not helping to see the color show up. What was Anriejetto's base color before he grayed?

Here's a link to show some examples of the silver gene on different coat colors.
http://www.equinecolor.com/silver.html

After looking at that website, I have to admit that I'm kind of wondering if you have a silver buckskin and not a silver palomino due to his dark mane in particular. I'd say it's quite possible if one of his parents carries the silver gene and was mistaken for a chestnut and actually carries a black gene instead of two red genes. Either way, he is lovely and very unique! I really like him.

pintofoal

Apr. 9, 2003, 07:07 AM

Well, here's my two cents:

Anriejetto is a gray, your mare is a Palomino. Silver Dapple is a Dominate gene so it would have to be present in one of the two parents. So you have to ask your self--well was/is my mare really a silver dapple and not a palomino? or is Anreijetto a Silver Dapple and not really a gray or is he a silver dapple and a gray? Afrikaner, Anreijetto's sire is a brown or bay, so he was not a silver dapple. Erica, Anriejetto dam I cannot find a color on, but she would have to be both gray and silver dapple to add this color to Anreijetto. Erica is Gelderlander and as far as I know I have never heard of a silver dapple Gelderlander. So this brings us back to your mare. She is all TB right? by Gold Apollon, who we are pretty sure is a palomino and not a silver dapple, since generations later his offspring and their offspring have been palominos but I've never seen a silver dapple one. And your mare doesn't appear to be silver dapple, but palomino, do you know your mares dam's color? So back to Anriejetto (are we getting confused yet?) He is gray by all accounts and from what I've seen. I have seen him in person at Devon over the years and he was getting lighter and lighter with age and his mane is dark (like almost solid black)--silver dapples do not get lighter and their manes are light or highlighted. I've also seen offspring of his and again never a silver dapple, I've seen ones who have gone gray thou. The silver dapple gene effects the black in a horses coat, your colts mane and tail are getting darker--not staying light, the gray gene will do this, the silver dapple will not to the best of my knowlage. Even if this gene (silver dapple) has been hidden in "chestnuts" wouldn't you think that by now a silver dapple on a dark coat would have happened by now in one of these generations?--Anreijetto has been fairly popular breeding. I am by no means an expert in color genetics, but the silver dapple gene and the gray gene both being dominates are pretty easy to figure out--it has GOT to be there in the first generation to pass on, so either your mare or Anreijetto has got to be a silver dapple, I do not know what color Anreijetto was born, but we do know he has turned gray and there is a 50% chance he passed his gray gene to the colt, if he is also a silver dapple that means he had a 50% chance of passing that too, I think we are safe to assume that your mare is not a silver dapple but a palomino (and I don't think she is hiding a silver dapple gene) and she passed the palomino onto the colt, so I believe what we are seeing is very characteristic of a palomino base color going gray. There now I have even confused myself!!!

Why don't these folks get some DNA testing done? It's not that terribly expensive and would help solve the speculations about this colts color.

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

Priya

Apr. 9, 2003, 10:19 AM

About the silver dapple post....Anreijetto's dam use to be owned by good friends of ours in Holland before they moved here. The mare was GREY and with all the contoversy over this it woudl be correct that Anrejetto would have produced other "silver dapples" but he hasn't. Seems like a pretty far fetched idea to be honest!

Gold

Coloured Horses....Oh My!
http://www.trinitybreeders.on.ca

CentralCoast

Apr. 9, 2003, 11:18 AM

Has anyone seen any gray Rou babies? His owner's website does have a couple of babies and none of them are gray. You would expect Rou to pass along his gray gene 50% of the time also. But, perhaps he hasn't been bred enough...

Ladybug Hill

Apr. 9, 2003, 03:17 PM

First of all, why am I listed as "working hunter"?

I actually don't own Rou. I sold him as a 5 month old colt. He was born a very light and silvery color of palomino with very light hazel eyes. He had an odd silver tone to his coat that increased until I shipped him to Oregon at 7 months old. He did NOT have the typical white hairs around his eyes that are typical of greying horses when they are young. His mane and tail remained predominantly white until 2 or 3 years old.

After it became evident that his color was appearing more grey over time, I just assumed that the white hairs were not as evident due to his light body color.

Anriejetto was a very typical grey, lightening with each year, but I don't know his base color.

Gold Apollo was very typical palomino at a younger age, but as he matured he developed darker chocolate toned dapples and a silverish mane. However, I don't believe TBs carry silver dapple and I don't think coloring could have been taken for silver dapple either.

Rou's dam is very typical deep palomino, almost orange in the winter. Her dam was a liver chestnut, who I owned as well.

I have suggested genetic testing, but it falls on deaf ears. He has since been sold to a dressage rider who may geld him anyway. It seemed strange to me that if Rou is such an unusual color that his color warmblood breeder owner would not have wanted to keep him. He was a fantastic mover and nearly 17 hands and supposedly a rare color.

Rou did produce a few cremes and palominos but maybe they are too young yet to tell. Rou didn't grey much until age 2 or 3.

Weird!

Chris

Ladybug Hill--Hunters and Ponies
Specializing in Palomino TBs

ladybughillfarm.vaix.net (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net)

Ladybug Hill

Apr. 9, 2003, 03:35 PM

More pictures:
Anriejetto--Rou's sire (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/misc/anriejetto.jpg)

Rou's dam (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/goldie/goldie.jpg)

Rou's maternal grandsire (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/goldie/apollo.jpg)

Rou's half brother from same dam @ 21 months (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/copper/copper11on2-03.jpg)

Rou 7months (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/misc/at7months1.jpg)

Rou again at 7 months (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/misc/at7months2.jpg)

Rou at 4 years (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/misc/rou4yrs.jpg)

Rou under saddle (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net/misc/rouundersaddle3.jpg)

Just kind of fun!

But I vote grey!

Chris

Ladybug Hill--Hunters and Ponies
Specializing in Palomino TBs

ladybughillfarm.vaix.net (http://ladybughillfarm.vaix.net)

Janeway

Apr. 9, 2003, 03:41 PM

you are a working hunter because Erin has now instigated special titles for each level of posting that you reach.

The levels are:

0 - 10 posts = Greenie
10 - 100 = Training Level
100 - 1000 = Workiing Hunter
1000 - 2500 = Advanced
2500 - 5000 = Grand Prix
5000+ = Schoolmaster

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Palomino Leopard WB

Apr. 9, 2003, 07:45 PM

Atom do you have a conformation shot of Jasmina? Really hard to tell the quality of a horse from a head shot.
Alexandra you always make perfect sense to me, and you must keep posting as I love to see your beautiful foals.
My question was why Mahal would bring up a seperate breed from what Aurum breeds for, as perhaps an arguement that someone had been doing it longer than she had.

atom

Apr. 10, 2003, 03:49 AM

Hi Palomino Leopard WB:

Sorry I had no other pictures of Christines new cremello warmblood mare.
but I know the mare, the contact to the old owner come from our business. I can say: it is a very very good mare.
But for more pictures, please ask Christine, she is the owner and the mare was her birthday present. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mandy
Home of "Atom"
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

alexandra

Apr. 10, 2003, 08:45 AM

What a nifty birthday present !!!
And her breeding ? She really looks interesting. With what breeding societys is she registered ?
Mandy, you should know that aswell, when you made the contact.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

[This message was edited by alexandra on Apr. 10, 2003 at 01:03 PM.]

atom

Apr. 10, 2003, 12:11 PM

Hi Alexandra,

sorry, that I can not give an answer to you.
Yes I have made the contact and I know the mare, but I must seriously to my buyer ( I was agent )and can not give answer about the horses from other people.
Please ask Christine with all you questions, I´m sure that she will give answer to you.

Sorry, but please understand my that I can not give a statement about Jasmina.

Thank you
Mandy
Home of Atom
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

Policy of Truth

Apr. 10, 2003, 12:25 PM

Atom,
I'm really amused as well as confused as to why telling us information about the mare is so secretive...very weird!

atom

Apr. 10, 2003, 12:42 PM

Hi Pacificsolo,

no thats not confused. I can not give information about horses which get over my business to the new owner, if the new owner will not give the information.
please understand my, thats not only for this mare. If we sell a horse as agent and the new owner will not give information about this horses, then we can not give the information.

has the new owner not a problem with this, then this is not a problem for my to tell the informations http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Christine is very proud of her new mare and I´m sure she will give the informations and also new pictures. I think this is not a problem.

Thank you for the interest, but I´m sure if you buy a new horse, then you will also promote this horse with your own words.

Sorry for my english, I hope you can understand my. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thank you
Mandy
Home of Atom
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

Janeway

Apr. 10, 2003, 12:54 PM

that is weird I agree Pacificsolo.

Since whe are the bloodlines of a horse (as that is all Alexandra just asked for) secretive?

I was under the impression that every horse with breeding papers in Germany was registered in the FN with all breeding/competitive data available to the public. Am I wrong Alexandra/Aurum?

Besides if you had wanted to keep things privy with your client Atom, then you never should have posted that Mahal got a new horse for a birthday present in the first place http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

atom

Apr. 10, 2003, 01:04 PM

Hi Janeway,

that I posted Christines new horse that was a agreement with her.I have ask she for this, if I can posted her birthday present.

But all the others information about Jasmina will posted Christine.
Not of this horses are secret. You can ask Christine all your questions and she will give answer.

Mandy
Home of Atom
Equus Kinsky Stallion in Palomino Color

alexandra

Apr. 10, 2003, 08:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Janeway:
that is weird I agree Pacificsolo.

I was under the impression that _every_ horse with breeding papers in Germany was registered in the FN with all breeding/competitive data available to the public. Am I wrong Alexandra/Aurum?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The FN has in her database those horse that are somehow successful. That means: First of all each and every licensed stallion in in that database. (of course with his pedigree). Than they have all the horses in their database that are enlisted with that organisation. This means that the owners planned to show him at a certain show level and enlisted the horse with the FN. For the beginner shows you do not need to regsiter yourself and your horse. Each year the yearbook is published (nowerdays data is also available on CD, including more data than the books).
All the stallions are on it, including the stalliontest results and if already existend breeding values. And all thoses registered show horses that were successfull, meaning were placed last year are listed. Sometimes you can find mares in the search function, but only if they are mother or grandmother of a successfully competing horse or licensed stallion. On the CD you can find even the place where the show they took part (well and ofcause rider, type of class, placement). They basicly publish all the horses that are successfully competing in that year, their ancestors and all licensed stallions, even those not living anymore(at least on the CD). You can also search for riders or breeders including their riding successes that year and all the registered horses of a breeder.
Horses only successful at beginner shows or breeding shows are not listed and cannot be found. People competing in Western shows (such as barrel racing or pleasure) are not yet registered neither those horses. I think they are working on that, too, but I do not know for sure.

To Atom: I will wait politely until Mahal answers. I am also eagerly awaiting new pictures of her foal in movement.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

[This message was edited by alexandra on Apr. 11, 2003 at 07:03 AM.]

alexandra

Apr. 11, 2003, 03:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Palomino Leopard WB:
Alexandra you always make perfect sense to me, and you must keep posting as I love to see your beautiful foals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank You http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

PaintedWhisper

Apr. 13, 2003, 07:32 AM

Can Someone explain the Sabino thing alittle more, please?
Thanks

-Emily-
When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it.hhhh
^Whispering Hill^
^You've Got Mail^

pintofoal

Apr. 13, 2003, 08:26 AM

Try this link: http://www.coloredhorses.com/colorkey.html It's the IRC site and we have quite a bit of info on coloring/genetics (though we still have lots we have to add!) there is also a very informative artical by Janet Piercy on Paint and pinto coloring. Hope that helps.

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

Little Indian

Apr. 13, 2003, 12:07 PM

here's new pics of my gelding
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7076024331&m=23460932
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7076024331&m=45760632

PaintedWhisper

Apr. 13, 2003, 03:16 PM

So if the last 2 horses I owned had a big white blaze, 4 high white stockings, and white on their bellies they are possibly Sabino?

-Emily-
When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it.hhhh
^Whispering Hill^
^You've Got Mail^

pintofoal

Apr. 13, 2003, 03:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> So if the last 2 horses I owned had a big white blaze, 4 high white stockings, and white on their bellies they are possibly Sabino? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

Spot

Apr. 13, 2003, 03:51 PM

Little Indian - he is just plain adorable and I love that smudge on the side of his face.

He looks like such a good boy too and happy in his job!

Nice sabino ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Spot"

Little Indian

Apr. 13, 2003, 08:06 PM

thank you muchley. we've come to the conclusion that he has a sea horse in his blaze, so we're going to hopfully show him as Neptune (god of the sea) if my trainer likes it. if not i need to have people help me with other cool sea names! hehe. he was hsown as Cordero last weekend which i do not particularly admire.*

dahlia

Apr. 13, 2003, 10:15 PM

Atom, I find what you say rather interesting....
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> can not give information about horses which get over my business to the new owner, if the new owner will not give the information.
please understand my, thats not only for this mare. If we sell a horse as agent and the new owner will not give information about this horses, then we can not give the information. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

because I believe you are doing business with an american who does exactly what you say you do not. You must be very disappointed in that.

OneonOne

Apr. 14, 2003, 04:54 AM

Is there any confirmation on the "perlino" foal which was the original topic here? I'm anxious to hear what the jury says!

_________________________________

** Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious. **

alexandra

Apr. 14, 2003, 05:15 AM

I am also eagerly wating on more pictures (movement, conformation...) of the foal. Should be old enough to have been out. Hope nothing happened ?

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

fullmoon fever

Apr. 22, 2003, 08:37 PM

Man, I'm glad it was slow at work tonight...gave me a chance to read this whole thread...what a laugh!

I also breed "rare" coloured horses. Buckskin, palomino and cremello Appaloosas for sport. It looks like I need to get my digital camera out and show off my "rares" too. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Now that I've thought more about it...I place a lot of the blame for misinformation on the Registries. For example, the ApHCC does NOT recognize the colour "cremello", so my cream horses are registered as palomino or white, depending on how the pictures turn out. As well, I have a black stud who is registered as buckskin. He WAS buckskin until he was about 18 mos. old. Most people don't bother to have the papers corrected because the registries make it too damn difficult.

Soooo, if I sold one of my cream mares to someone that didn't know any differently, they would say "Oh, look at my palomino mare!" and they would have registration papers that would back them up.

[This message was edited by spotacular on Apr. 23, 2003 at 12:55 AM.]

Spot

Apr. 23, 2003, 03:01 AM

spotacular - thats nothing ...

How about our buckskin's that are registered as "bays" and our palomino's AND cremello's that are registered as chestnuts (not even LIGHT chestnuts, mind you - but plain chestnut! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) in the Jockey Club stud book, since buckskin's and palomino's don't even exist in their eyes!

My palomino colt I tried to register as "Obviously A Palomino" and they would not allow it. It was an *unsuitable* name as everyone KNOWS that there is no such thing as a palomino TB ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Spot"

alexandra

Apr. 23, 2003, 03:33 AM

What a cool name and thing to do spot !!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

Two Toofs

Apr. 23, 2003, 04:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:
My palomino colt I tried to register as "Obviously A Palomino" and they would not allow it. It was an *unsuitable* name as everyone KNOWS that there is no such thing as a palomino TB ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Spot"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's unsuitable because it has too many letters/spaces.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Spot

Apr. 23, 2003, 04:53 AM

Two Toofs - actually - it wasnt - it was run together as ObviouslyAPalomino and I was told - by Buddy Bishop, the registrar himself, that it was an unsuitable name and would not be allowed. And the specific reason given was that as palomino's did NOT exist in the TB breed, they would not allow a name of this nature to be used.

Go figure ...

"Spot"

FairWeather

Apr. 23, 2003, 05:33 AM

But that doesnt make sense--the JC doesnt care if you call your horse 'obviously a donkey' or 'lookslikeadoofus' they just want something that fits, and isnt offensive. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
however, i love the name http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
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Spot

Apr. 23, 2003, 05:57 AM

Fairweather - EXACTLY! - go figure ... I guess in their eyes ObviouslyAPalomino was poking fun at their archaic thinking that palomino's didnt / did exist, and to them - it WAS offensive, because I was (tongue in cheek) making fun of them and they didnt like it.

"Spot"

Sonesta

Apr. 23, 2003, 06:38 AM

Spot, how then did you guys get "Lookspalominotome"? registered that way?

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) Hanoverian, Knabstrupper & Arabian Sport Horses

"Find something you love and call it work."

Spot

Apr. 23, 2003, 09:04 AM

Sonesta - I guess, first of all, you need to think like the Jockey Club!

First name choice was: ObviouslyAPalomino
Second was: LooksPalominoToMe
and third was: All That Glitters

I guess the thought process was that name choice number 1 was insinuating that they were stupid. They didnt like it much.
Choice number 2 was not quite so direct - he might LOOK like a palomino, but since everyone knows that palomino's DONT exist in the TB registry, he couldnt actually BE one, so that was okay to name him that... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I just went into the JC site to see if I could pull up and copy anything, but after the Lauren Efford fiasco they seem to have wiped clean any mention that he ever existed in there.

"Spot"

Norsire

Apr. 23, 2003, 09:11 AM

Lookspalominotome could be used now, that the other one is non existant...right? I doubt they will allow any names like that since the Goldhope AI fraud on the Jockey Club..I think they are still very bitter over all of that. If, they were forced to have real genetics, it would really piss them off!!! AQHA, has finally come to realize that cremellos and prelinos are NOT albinos and do not exist..but look how many petitions and YEARS it took to get AQHA to open their blind eyes. Wish it could happen with the JC!!! Maybe someday!?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
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fullmoon fever

Apr. 23, 2003, 09:32 AM

That whole AQHA thing was a complete fiasco. First your horse is a paint because there is no such thing as a cremello...now they FINALLY get it, and you have to re-register the horse.

Now to get to work on the Appaloosa Horse clubs. The really hard part there, is to make sure you take your pictures when the horse is slightly damp or has its midsummer coat so if there are white markings, they show up.

If all these registries would quit focusing on POLITICS and learn about GENETICS, it would be a lot easier on us all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Two Toofs

Apr. 23, 2003, 10:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by spotacular:

If all these registries would quit focusing on POLITICS and learn about GENETICS, it would be a lot easier on us all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not politics as far as the JC goes and it's been explained around here (and other places) about 10 million times why, at the track, there is a need for a short, set number of color patterns that match JC color descriptions (and sorry folks, a palomino DOES fit the JC color category description for chestnut -search the archives if you want the "why" again, too much energy to explain it all yet again) for quick ID purposes prior to racetime. They don't say they don't "exist", they say they are not going to make yet another color designation after they have gotten them narrowed down to a few choices and descriptions that will fit all horses. Genetics only comes into play when parentage is in question. They are COAT DESCRIPTIONS, not genetic color.

And yes, the JC can reject names for any reason, especially if someone is trying purposely to piss them off. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

aurum

Apr. 23, 2003, 10:23 AM

I hate to bother, but wouldn't it be apropriate to start a new thread for this JC namings? It has nothing to do with the initial thread and would perhaps also be of interest for others but not within this thread.

Perhaps "JC and naming TBs"? Thanks.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Spot

Apr. 23, 2003, 10:24 AM

Two Toofs ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> And yes, the JC can reject names for any reason, especially if someone is trying purposely to piss them off.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and your point is??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Here is another case in point. For once - the Jockey Club actually got this one right!

The picture posted is of a mare I used to own. Her name is Ryeesin Up, by Airdrie Apache (chestnut TB stallion) out of Ryeesa (dark bay/brown TB mare - but in actual fact - she was jet black)
The JC correctly registered this mare as a dark bay / brown and the APHA (since she was dual registered as a Paint) registered her as a brown sabino.

She was - genetically - a black and white sabino mare, that unfortunately LOOKED like a dark steel grey.
I advertised her as such - as a black and white TB mare.

Well - didnt I get Hellfire rained upon me from all sides from SO many people. Because she LOOKED grey, I must be intentionally deceiving people (even though with no grey parent, it was genetically impossible for her to BE a grey!). I, quite frankly, got called pretty well every name in the book from people that simply didnt have a clue how color genetics work.

It was interesting and if anyone cared, they would see in 5 or 10 or 20 years she wouldnt fade like a true grey, but would maintain this same slate color throughout her lifetime

"Spot"

Two Toofs

Apr. 23, 2003, 11:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>

Here is another case in point. For once - the Jockey Club actually got this one right!

She was - genetically - a black and white sabino mare, that unfortunately LOOKED like a dark steel grey.
I advertised her as such - as a black and white TB mare.

Well - didnt I get Hellfire rained upon me from all sides from SO many people. Because she LOOKED grey, I must be intentionally deceiving people (even though with no grey parent, it was genetically impossible for her to BE a grey!). I, quite frankly, got called pretty well every name in the book from people that simply didnt have a clue how color genetics work.

It was interesting and if anyone cared, they would see in 5 or 10 or 20 years she wouldnt fade like a true grey, but would maintain this same slate color throughout her lifetime

"Spot"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, depending on when she was registered and what she looked like at the time she was registered, she's probably registered wrong. "Grey or Roan" is indeed the category that mare should be registered in - it's grey OR roan, with the JC COAT DESCRIPTION of roan being the majority of the coat being a mixture of white with red or brown hairs. If that's the same filly you posted in the past with this story, she's definitely appears to be a different color in that photo than in the others I've seen of her. She goes to the track to be tattooed and I guarantee you 150% that her papers would have to be changed before she could be tattooed. We get greys in as two year olds to be tattooed with the wrong colors on their papers all the time, and bays as chestnut, etc., etc. Doesn't matter a flip what the genetics are unless the parentage is in question - the coat descriptions are very simple to understand if one actually takes the time to read them. And if her mother was truly indeed jet black (with NO brown hairs) then she was incorrectly registered as well. However, bits of brown hairs don't always show up on photos and since people apparently don't read the rule books anyway, (many think that they can't register a TB as black - which is entirely untrue), the JC goes by what is filled out on the forms, so there are plenty of blacks registered as dark bay.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Two Toofs

Apr. 23, 2003, 11:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Two Toofs:

Actually, depending on when she was registered and what she looked like at the time she was registered, she's probably registered wrong. "Grey or Roan" is indeed the category that mare should be registered in - it's grey OR roan, with the JC COAT DESCRIPTION of roan being the majority of the coat being a mixture of white with red or brown hairs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adding to my own previous post - if the filly has BLACK and white hairs, she's actually has a GREY coat according to the JC coat color descrptions (typing slowly here- which has nothing whatsoever to do with the genetics of the horse - ONLY when parentage is in question does the grey or red parent genetics rules come into play) - still the same category, still registered wrong.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

silly*mare!

Apr. 24, 2003, 12:52 PM

So let me get this straight.
The chances of coloured foals out of these parents (assuming heterozygous where possible)are:

1)buckskin X cremello= 1/4buckskin, 1/4
palomino, 1/4perlino, 1/4 cremello

2)buckskin X perlino= 1/4possible perlino

3)buckskin X palomino= 1/8possible perlino

4)perlino X cremello= 1/2perlino, 1/2cremello

5)perlino X palomino =1/4buckskin, 1/4
palomino, 1/4perlino, 1/4 cremello

6)palomino X cremello= NO POSSIBLE PERLINO(1/2palomino, 1/2cremello)

That's what I understand of genentics according to http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/coats.html

Figuring all that out was strangely fun.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HaltAtX

Apr. 24, 2003, 01:18 PM

Hey spot, who owns the mare now?

She sure is a looker! Movement and color!

A Sport Horse breeder Of Color.

OneonOne

Apr. 24, 2003, 02:10 PM

Wow, I'm learning a lot from this thread. Color really is a fascinatingly complex thing!

I STILL want to find out about the "perlino" foal!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

_________________________________

** Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious. **

Apr. 24, 2003, 05:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by silly*mare!:
So let me get this straight.
The chances of coloured foals out of these parents (assuming heterozygous where possible)are:

1)buckskin X cremello= 1/4buckskin, 1/4
palomino, 1/4perlino, 1/4 cremello

2)buckskin X perlino= 1/4possible perlino

3)buckskin X palomino= 1/8possible perlino

4)perlino X cremello= 1/2perlino, 1/2cremello

5)perlino X palomino =1/4buckskin, 1/4
palomino, 1/4perlino, 1/4 cremello

6)palomino X cremello= NO POSSIBLE PERLINO(1/2palomino, 1/2cremello)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1 - depends on if the buckskin carries a red gene - if not, no chance of cremello or palomino
2 - dependso on if 1 or both parents carry a red gene - if so, add palo and cremello to the mix
3 - that darn red gene again! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
4 - durn that red! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
5 - repeat above http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
6 - right! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif also no possibility of a buckskin