Welsh Stallions, then and now

[VirginiaBred]

Since several of us are discussing the A & B sections, I thought it might be interesting to discuss the differences of the stallions that are almost obsolete or have since died vs the ones from today.

I hesitate to call them a "modern" type, because I feel that is pegging or classifying them, but maybe that is what I'm seeing. I wonder.

The older stallions (Farnley Belshazzar, Crossgates Larasan, *Pendock Larkspur, Benlea Rambler, etc.) have so much more substance than the ones you see today. I've been on a stallion hunt recently and am amazed at the "fineness" (lack of bone) and conformation of many.

I realize that there are many more stallions nowadays and that's mostly the reason (too many are kept stallions that shouldn't be), but what other contributing factors do you think there are?

Not a quality mare that was bred originally?
Too many folks calling themselves breeders that shouldn't be?

What?

[Tamara in TN]

I think that some of it might have to do with stride length in the hunter rings and the over all "cuteness" factor of the oversized "leadline" A with it's bug eyes and .5 inch long ears

why buy a horse faced thing with good bone when all anyone looks at is the ears and eyes???

Tamara in TN

[quicksilverponies]

Interesting questions. I think it may have something to do with changing preferences much as we have seen the preference of many people towards WBs vs TBs in the hunter ring. I have another question. If a stallion is by an older type stallion out of an older type mare, but born recently (say in the last 10 yrs), is that stallion considered a modern type or old type? Personally, I think producing quality, true to type ponies comes by breeding proven established bloodlines. Quality is not old or modern - I think it comes through either way. JMO.

[Summerwood]

Let me preface this saying that I am no expert, I am new to breeding welsh ponies myself but I try to learn what I can through research and other people who know more than me! Here's my thoughts:
I think a large part of it is the quality of mares. I don't think that this is only true of the welsh world, either. "Let's breed Betsy because she has an injury and isn't going to make a show pony." Or "Dear saintly Betsy was such a wonderful babysitter pony, we can't bear to part with her, so let's breed her." These decisions are sometimes made with the heart and not with practicality and the overall breed type in mind. Maybe Betsy has some conformation faults that should not be passed on. Welsh stallions don't cost a fortune to breed to (not saying they should be), so it isn't an unattainable dream for people. The mare is so important, even though it is usually the stallion that gets the blame or the credit depending on how the foal turns out.

I also agree with Tamara and think that some of the qualities that people are aiming for for the hunter ring lends itself to a finer boned animal. Many welsh pony breeders are aiming for that market because of the financial aspect of having a hunter pony and maybe a bigger market. Perhaps its the lines some are using that tend to be finer. Specifically I think Downland ponies can be a bit more on the fine side. Just my observations.

[rideagoldenpony]

Nevermind.

[VirginiaBred]

Quality does come through either way. I think if you strive on resurrecting the old lines you are successful (regardless of when it is born) but good luck with that now; it's almost impossible! That's what I'm saying.

I consider the "old" lines to be stallions like Farnley Belshazzar. He is 27 this year (and doesn't look a day over 12). The kind of breeding Farnley did back in the day.

[VirginiaBred]

Perhaps its the lines some are using that tend to be finer. Specifically I think Downland ponies can be a bit more on the fine side. Just my observations.

As do I. Now, I had a mare that had a bunch of Downland in her pedigree, so I took her to an older stallion. I think more of that needs to be done to improve the welsh lines personally.

[Windswept Stable]

Pedigree is very important. I won't argue that.
However, while the pedigree is important.. there have been more than one well pedigreed mare and stallion-- that are producing; regardles of what our eyes are showing us.
Why? Ok --the mare has an excellent piece of paper that says her pedigree is outstanding. What do I see-- long back, upside down neck and straight stifles. So, why does someone want to let it have a baby just because it has a nice piece of paper saying its a nice pony? Nice pony sure, but just not breeding quality.
Is is just nature? We all know how disappointing nature can be sometimes. We can breed two silk purses and think the baby will be just amazing and instead end up with a sow's ear. And sometimes, those sow's ear mares can spit out a baby that is seemingly heaven sent.
Is it lack of knowledge? Or we just let it have a baby because it's got a good pedigree? To me, all that does is further weaken the gene pool. That pedigree has got be be backed up with a good body build, as well as a great brain. End of story. The whole package should be the goal. Not just the piece of paper.
Agree with quicksilver, quality is not old or new. It can come thru either way.

[VirginiaBred]

Definitely the mare has an enormus factor, IMO. More than the sire if you ask me.

[Windswept Stable]

Definitely the mare has an enormus factor, IMO. More than the sire if you ask me.

So many people don't get this. I could not agree more.

[quicksilverponies]

I agree with you both. The mare is hugely important, and sadly, it is most often the stallion that gets blamed for a poor quality foal or a bad temperament. I don't agree that the Downland ponies are fine boned for the most part - if they couldnt hold up in the show ring, they wouldn't show up predominantly in so many winning pony pedigrees. I do think they "refine" a coarser looking pony often times. A lot of the older ponies, while having great bone, simply did not have the lovely heads and necks that you see these days on the ponies winning both in hand, under saddle in the model and in the Welsh breed shows. It is possible to breed refinement and good bone. There are many newer breeders that are putting some absolutely top quality ponies on the ground. Perfect example is Tammy Burgin with Telynau Royal Charter. And there are several others that are also doing a great job. Are there some doing a poor job as well? Of course, as with any breed of equine.

[Summerwood]

Melinda-I am not sure Tammy would be considered a new breeder, as she herself admitted to me that it took her a long time to get where she is at with her breeding program. :) You are without a doubt correct however that she has a top class program and her ponies are stamped with a definate "Farmore" look to them. I would love love love to have one in my barn, which is why one of my mares will go to him this year.
As far as the Downland refinement goes, I don't think they all are like that, but IMO many of them really are. Does that make them less of a pony? I don't think so, not in the least, they are prominent in many pedigrees. Just a different look than some of the ponies that VABred is talking about. A very prominent welsh breeder who visited the stud many years ago told me she found the same thing when she went there. Personally I think they are very important to the welsh breed and I find that I really like a lot of them. If I had a really fine-boned mare, however, I would not breed her to them for fear of getting too fine of a pony. It is just my personal preference.

[quicksilverponies]

Oh I agree with you in certain instances and of course, I wouldn't suggest breeding a fineboned mare to a fineboned stallion. As always, it is important to cross the right mare with the right stallion. But there are a lot of mares out there that need that refinement and lovely movement the Downland breeding can offer.

I don't mean that Tammy has not been breeding for a while and I know how hard she has worked over the years building her program. But compared to Farnley, GlanNant and some of the older breeders discussed, she would be considered "new". That is what I meant. Charter's sons and daughters are only recently (within the last 5 yrs or so) beginning to make their mark in the performance world. I used her as an example of a breeder using different bloodlines (from the older US bred lines) to produce some very nice ponies.

[Summerwood]

Melinda--I see what you mean and think we are in agreement :) My program would be considered in the embryo stage compared to those guys!

I really think we are going to see a lot of Charter's get in the rings in years to come. I think he is just the cat's pajamas!

[quicksilverponies]

Yes, he is a true example of great Welsh type with the proven ability to sire ponies that do well in-hand and under saddle both in the Welsh breed shows as well as in the hunter ring. And he has a fair amount of Downland blood on his pedigree as well:). With stallions like him and several other "newer" ones out there, I think the future of Welsh breeding in this country is looking very bright.

[VirginiaBred]

Telynau Royal Charter is the nicest of the Telynau stallions I've known. :yes:

[Dressage_Diva333]

I'm also new, and learning, so I don't have too much to add to this discussion. However, I was wondering if you more experienced Welsh breeders would post pictures & pedigrees of ponies who you feel are absolutely top class Welsh ponies... as opposed to top class hunter ponies... does that make any sense?


I am also a fan of Telynau Royal Charter :yes:


I will throw in there that I am a fan of the older type ponies... as opposed to many modern hunter ponies.

[rideagoldenpony]

If you're looking to the Chronicle Forums to learn about Welsh Ponies, you should be aware that the views that are often expressed on here are a bit different than the regular Welsh breeding population, as most of the "Welsh people" on here are breeding for the hunter market. There are many other breeders that don't post on here, with completely valid opinions, that may vary from those you see consistently on COTH.

I'll spare everyone from my own opinions on the subject, but I'm always willing to discuss things by e-mail or by phone. ;)

[LovesHorses]

Huge Charter fan here! I am on my 5th one. Tammy has been breeding for over 25 yrs, but her program has changed for the better since Charter was imported 10 yrs ago. As mentioned above, her mares are all chosen for pedigree, temperament, quality and substance. Many are imported, others are descendents of her old stallion Talybont Quicksilver. By the way, Farmore came from combining the words Farnley and Welmore.

I have always said that a foal is influenced 60 percent by the mare and 40 percent by the stallion. I think you see the most change in the breeding programs where they have taken the time to educate themselves on what works, what doesn't and what is desirable.

The only two ponies I have owned that were fined boned, yet by a stallion with a lot of bone, had Findeln Blue Danube close up on the dams side.

I agree that it is important for a stallion to produce ponies with performance careers. I see a lot of stallions with Welsh halter records, but not much else. Same thing with goes for their offspring.

I am on the West Coast so I can't comment on the breeding programs back East. Most of the famous ponies I see at the A rated shows are fabulous, but older. Naturally the smalls and mediums are the more refined than the larges, but I wouldn't consider them fine boned.

[Faircourt]

When I bred my welsh mare for a full welsh baby, it was really really important to me to find a stallion that I thought would compliment her pedigree and bring old lines to the table - I knew that the result, whether colt or filly, would hopefully be something that I could use to continue her lines. She's GlanNant bred to Liseter, something that I don't see often these days and lines that I just love, going back to the base for the Helicon ponies, GlanNant Epic, and Coed Coch Prydyddes as well as the classic Liseter Shooting Star. It's been interesting for me to read the opinions from many breeders of breeding Section B's to Section A's as my mare is a result of that type of breeding and is in my opinion one of the most classic, beautiful mares I have ever seen. She's won at both hunter shows and welsh shows. I made the decision to cross her with Otteridge Foxtrot because I just loved his pedigree and the multiple crosses back to Farnley Lustre - he had those old lines that I wasn't seeing as much and that I felt would really compliment my mare's pedigree. I agree that starting with a mare that SHOULD be bred is the most important thing you can do. Sometimes I am a little shocked at the mares some stallion owners are willing to let their stud be bred to, especially a young stallion!

I've kept the resulting colt in tact basically for my own breeding future for the time being, and am very excited to see how he matures. I am also really excited to see what he will produce in the future for me and am interested to see how he will cross both with my thoroughbred mare as well as with another full welsh - a mare that I will take just as much time to research and find as I did in planning and breeding him :)

[VirginiaBred]

Cymraeg Rainbeau, Farnley Belshazzar & Otteridge Foxtrot - examples of pony hunter sires (looking for some others, please stand by!)

[Dressage_Diva333]

If you're looking to the Chronicle Forums to learn about Welsh Ponies, you should be aware that the views that are often expressed on here are a bit different than the regular Welsh breeding population, as most of the "Welsh people" on here are breeding for the hunter market. There are many other breeders that don't post on here, with completely valid opinions, that may vary from those you see consistently on COTH.

I'll spare everyone from my own opinions on the subject, but I'm always willing to discuss things by e-mail or by phone. ;)


I'm 100% aware of that... which is why I'm curious to see the different views ;)


FWIW, I would love to hear your views. I think that your breeding program is one of the finest in the United States, and epitomizes the Welsh versatility :)

[Faircourt]

Ridegoldenpony, I'd be really interested in hearing your views as well - especially after your recent trip overseas!

VABred, cool pic of Rainbeau!

[unbridledoaks]

Funny you should say this, because I was just talking to a few people about it the other day.

There are a few things that have played a factor over the years of the change in the breed.

Judging has been a huge factor of change. I won't go into it, but it's a horrible game that is being played today and the breed, in all the Sections, are suffering for it.

Second is that people are lacking the knowledge of pedigree. This breed was based off of breeding for pedigree. That I will defend to the end because I know what I have been told and what I have seen. That is why I bred the Section B Filly that I did. I listened to the well established breeders from across the pound, did my pedigree research, and did what I was told. The Cross came out lovely and of type! Knowing your pedigree is so important and keeping those lines alive is what we have to do. Listening to breeders who have been sucessful for years and knowing how to properly outcross lines is such a gift in this breed because if you don't know, you will end up with something totally off the wall. I know it's true in all breeds, but this one it is so important. I remember talking to one breeder who has had this breed in their family since the Welsh Society started over in the UK. He told me if you ever want to breed for bone, you only cross for it once and then he went on to tell me which lines would give you that bone with just that one cross for future foals. Of course I went on to ask how many crosses it would take to breed that bone out and when I would have to put another cross into that pedigree for bone. Again, he told me how many generations you would have to go. Now, how many of us would know that if we just came in to the breed wanting to breed ponies?

Both Charter and Mardi Gras come to my mind as being stallions of Perfect Welsh Type! Look at their pedigrees, and you will see why. You have to have a strong base of Welsh type and they both do. With the crossing of the Section A blood and the Downland blood far in their pedigrees, their breeders took that and worked off of it as a base, breeding a line of Ponies that came out to be probably one of the most successful lines of Section B's today.

That is why I think it's crazy when we have people now days preaching that you can't cross an A to a B to improve the Section B if needed to be. Well, if you know what you are doing with the Section A blood (Section A's who have gone over height, UK standard that is and knowing which lines will cross) and the Section B Blood that will blend with that A blood, there is no way you shouldn't come out with a typey Section B that has height and type the Section B is suppose to be. It just goes to show you, pedigree needs to be known.

I can keep going, but I will stop... LOL!! Don't get me started on the Cobs! LOL!! They are a whole another book!

[VirginiaBred]

*Pendock Masterpiece, Sleight of Hand & Penrhyn Sporting Chance are excellent examples of more of the typical welsh look, while excelling at being pony hunter sires.

[Daventry]

*Pendock Masterpiece, Penrhyn Sporting Chance & Sleight of Hand are excellent examples of more of the typical welsh look, while excelling at being pony hunter sires.

That middle photo of Penrhyn Sporting Chance actually isn't him...but it is a photo of his sire. When we purchased Penrhyn Sporting Chance last spring, he came with absolutely NO photos!!! And unfortunately, as thin as he arrived, we were not able to take any photos of him. Now that he's happy and fat, we will try and get some photos done of him this spring once he sheds out his winter coat. :yes:

[VirginiaBred]

That middle photo of Penrhyn Sporting Chance actually isn't him...but it is a photo of his sire.

Ah, I wondered. I switched them. There is a great head shot of him "somewhere" also.

[pwynnnorman]

OK, I managed to read this whole interesting thread without jumping in prematurely!

I think a few specific details would clarify some things, IMO. From what I have seen in person and also in the pictures on allbreedpedigree.com (a great place to go to see the original progenitors of some of the lines) the older lines were, as AQHA puts it, "more stout." But "stout" doesn't just mean better bone. It's a body shape. If you look at the representatives of the old types--the "traditional" Welsh, if you will, but not necessarily the "breed show" winning types--you see a "thicker" body: thicker, shorter necks (comparatively speaking, not fault-wise), deeper through both the heart girth AND the loin, less leg length, and decidedly more slope and more width to the hind quarters.

For example, GlanNants are, IMO, typical of that type. Cloe Olympian, same thing. Talamo Cricket. Farnley Lustre, not so much--anyone else feel like he was sort of a "transitional" type? And if you look at the picture of Belshazzar ('scuse the spelling, if that's wrong), pull his hind leg forward and you'll see that "classic" hip. It's got more angle, less roundness--and which is more pleasing to the eye? Well, the roundness, of course. But roundness has nothing to do with strength, which used to be important. Still, compare Belshazzar's hip to Mardi's, for example. Indeed, Liseter, Bowdler, Coed Coch--you see that hip and the stoutness over and over again.

But that was desired. It's STURDY! But even in the breed show ring these days, I doubt that anyone wants their stock to be called "sturdy." It's funny, though, because Welsh folks not breeding for the show ring seem perfectly content with--and even crow about, "sturdiness." Just look at some of the ads that come out in Welsh Review. They are family ponies, after all. And they were weight carriers, too, once upon a time. That's where, historically, the sturdiness in most "traditional" pony breeds comes from. We tend to think that ponies have always been bred for kids. They weren't and some of the old lines came from that weight-carrying idea (and pulling--harness, not draft--which might be where the more angular rump came from, I suppose).

Indeed, take a look at the old pictures and be sure to pull that hind leg forward if the canon bone is angled behind rather than under or in front of the hock.

The modern/new/whateveryouwanttocallit Welsh is built along the mini-TB lines that the UK breeders obviously had in mind when they introduced so very, very much TB and Arabian in (Downland in particular, of course). Longer, thinner necks, shallower bodies, rounder hips, lighter bone...but ALSO longer stride. Unquestionably longer stride--due in large part to a longer LEG and back. (The classic there that shook up the breeding world? Gotta be Carolinas Red Fox!) Indeed, the modern type gives one the impression, sometimes, of having more leg than body. What a huge difference from the original! But glance through Horse and Hound and the pictures of the British "show pony" and what do you see? Full bridles on exquisite heads ON THE VERTICLE! Can you imagine trying to frame up a "stout" pony that way? Good luck with that neck!

Downland illustrates what is surely and purely the show-ring artifact. Breeders of every breed out there breed what the judges pin--and breed more and more of it. Meanwhile what the judges don't pin or what the competition doesn't NEED, doesn't get produced any more. For example, like weight-carrying ability, powerful hindquarters are no longer needed, are they? So the slope in the quarters that gave them torque has lessened and softened to become more pleasing to the eye and overall stoutness is rare in either the hunter or the breed show ring. In hunters, the trot isn't the show gait, except as it be pleasing to the eye, smooth to the seat and related to a long stride. As a result, it has become more subtle (less articulated) and more reaching--i.e. more "ground covering" and "efficient". Foxtrot is the perfect example of the show hunter style: low, smooth, reachy. Both his conformation, carriage and movement gives (gave :() one the impression that a child who couldn't even post still wouldn't get bounced off his back.

IMO, there are two rules to conformation in the show ring: 1.) form follows function (what are the physical requirements of the competition OR other use) and 2.) form follws fad (what are the judging pinning). Some breeders don't actually have an eye for conformation and in generations past, competition wasn't so extensive and so specific that other types couldn't nevertheless proliferate. But you have to admit that that is no longer the case. As with so many "occupations" in today's world, it's all about specialization. One look at the top-selling young ponies and you see it perfectly illustrated.

[VirginiaBred]

Pwynn, I agree that they were "sturdy" then. I think that was a plus, and allowed for better crossing with mares (I think that's what I like so much - but I'm trying to get to the bottom of my thought process as well).

As a breeder, I want to bring every aspect of the older style back, obviously starting with the pedigree, but build, type, etc.

And, that being said I also think that too many are breeding a "finer" stallion with a "finer" mare and the resulting offspring isn't carrying forward the more substantial genes. They are being bred out, so to speak.

Yeah, that is what I'm seeing! :yes:

[Tamara in TN]

old article from :
http://www.tangwyllt.com

I do not think Claudia would mind folks reading her work...this was written before many readers here were even born and presents some accurate historical data outside the realm of most modern breeders

Tamara in TN




Virginia Gunter of Tamarack Farm
BY CLAUDIA NOVAK Welsh Roundabout May - June 1983


To breed Welsh ponies for 30 years is no small feat. Virginia Gunter of Tamarack Farm in Charlton, MA, has accomplished this small wonder. Virginia's love of ponies goes back to her childhood. According to Virginia, "My first pony was brought into our barn after I was sound asleep on an April night when I was not yet 6 years old. She was said to be Welsh, but in size only, through ancestry, never! Shaggy, straight necked, large of head, with pale blue watch eyes, lovable, not pretty, she appeared to be a mixture of Shetland and mustang. Papa had a copy of the National Geographic featuring beautiful color plates of the horses of the world. I fancied the lovely, fine Welsh ponies I saw there and vowed that when I grew up I would raise real Welsh ponies."
When Virginia first began in 1953, there were about 375 living registered Welsh in the U.S. Early foundation stock was purchased from Farnley Farm and Severn Oaks Farm. In 1954, Tamarack Ann Margaret and Tamarack Abel Douthit were born. Since then, the alphabet of Tamarack ponies has gone through the Z's and started again with the A's. The Tamarack dictionary of ponies includes over 215 ponies.
The mid-1950s proved to be the start of the 'pony boom’. Many imported ponies came to the U.S. By purchasing mares in foal many notable bloodlines were introduced to the herd. Usually Tamarack stood two stallions. From this early period, three stallions and several mares stand out with consistent production and noteworthy breeding.
Farnley Starbright 1323 (95001 (Bowdler Brightlight x Coed Coch Seren) was a substantial grey 12.2 hand mare. Her sire, .Bowdler Brightlight (1303), was a stallion of note, winning much in the U.K. before coming to the U.S. Her dam, .Coed Coch Seren (85391, was described as a "delightful brown mare" by Wynne Davies in his book, "Welsh Ponies and Cobs." .Coed Coch Seren's influence lives on today mainly through her famous son Farnley Sirius 1147 (1646). Farnley Sirius was the first son of Coed Coch Glyndwr to come to the U.S. Farnley Penelope 1558 (Farnley Sirius x Revel Penwen) was a chestnut roan 11.3 hand mare that combined this blood with that of Revel Springlight (1696). Revel Springlight also sired the 1963 Female Royal Welsh winner Revel Caress (11424).
Cui Bay Bee 1434 (9690) (Criban Snowball x Cwmowen Lady Bird) was a prolific producer. Her sire, Criban Snowball (1746) combined the blood of Coed Coch Glyndwr with that of Criban. Snowball's pedigree reads like the who's who of Criban ponies including Criban Shot (1276), Criban Winston (1705), Criban Cockade (1627), Criban Chief (1307) and Criban Socks (8703) to mention only a few. Cwmowen Lady Bird's (9394) pedigree is less well known in the U.S. but includes many old Forest and Grove turn-of-the-century ponies.
Another mare, Twin-Gates Princess-Lyn, 2889 (Coed Coch Meilyr x Plumgarth's Filigree) added a tremendous concentration of Dyoll Starlight (4) blood to the Tamarack herd. Her sire, Coed Coch Meilyr 1589 (1947) (Tregoyd Starlight x Coed Coch Mefusen) was the 1950 Male Champion at the Royal Welsh. He was also half brother to Coed Coch Madog (1981). Plumgarth's Filigree 1577 (9883) added further concentrations of Dyoll Starlight blood. All added up, Twin-Gates Princess-Lyn had over 30 percent Dyoll Starlight blood and was one of the most linebred Dyoll Starlight mares in North America.
The mare, Severn Garnet 1606 (Severn Storm x Coed Coch Trysor) and her 7/8 brother Severn Tornado 1610 (Severn Storm x Coed Coch Morfa) spent many successful years at Tamarack. Their sire, Severn Storm 1320 was by .Bowdler Brightlight out of Coed Coch Ebrill1114 (8887) (Revolt x Coed Coch Eirlys). Their dams were both Tan- Y Bwlch Berwyn daughters.
Severn Nettle 2132 (Severn High Tide x Coed Coch Pansi) turned out to be Mrs. Gunter's favorite Section A stallion. Severn Nettle was a product of the now famous Coed Coch Glyndwr and Tan- Y-Bwlch Berwyn cross. Severn Nettle was a perfect child's pony in disposition with plenty of substance and type. Severn Blue Boy 4179 (Severn High Tide x Severn Silver Dust) was the last Section A stallion to seriously influence Tamarack ponies.

From left to right: Severn Garnet (Severn Storm x Coed Coch Trevor), Severn Nettle (Severn High Tide x Coed Coch Pansi) and Severn Tornado (Severn Storm x Coed Coch Morfa).


Tamarack Nell. Photo 1975.


Farnley Starbright 1323 (Bowdler Brightlight x Coed Coch Seren). Photo 1954 at Farnley Farm.

*Cui Bay Bee (Criban Snowball x Cwmowen Lady Bird) with foal Tamarack Encore.

In 1964, Mrs. Gunter decided to start breeding Section B ponies. To quote Mrs. Gunter, "We made this change because it presents an exciting challenge to produce large ponies, for which there is a constant demand, while maintaining the lovely heads, good legs, supple necks, alert presence and Welsh personality of the little fellows."
The transfer of emphasis to Section B ponies went very smoothly. Severn Torru:u1o being a Tan- Y- Bwlch Berwyn grandson had the potential of giving size to his offspring. Severn Nettle's grand dams were both by Tan-Y-Bwlch Berwyn. The two Section B mares, Tamarack Jewel (Severn Nettle x Severn Garnet) and Tamarack Guide Star (Severn Nettle x Farnley Starbright) were excellent foundation mares.
To tap this size potential in her broodmares, .Coed Coch Ballog B-2919 (2518) (Criban Victor x Berwyn Beauty) stood at stud for a few months at Tamarack Farm. The 2 year old colt, GlanNant Character B-7399 (Kirby Cane Jay x Coed Coch Prydyddes) was purchased. Crefeld Shelia 8313 (Coed Coch Meilyr x Pendock Scilla) was purchased in foal to .Cusop Sheriff B-11466 (3213) (Cusop Call Boy x Coed Coch Brenhines Sheba_.
During this period, Tamarack Lady Linda 14879 (Coed Coch Ballog x Twin Gates Princess-Lyn) , Tamarack Locket 13935 (GlanNant Character x Tamarack Gem), Tamarack Lodestar 14881 (Coed Coch Ballog x Tamarack Guide Star) and the two colts, Tamarack Mark B-16130 (GlanNant Character x Tamarack Guide Star) and Tamarack Matthew 15718 (Cusop Sheriff x Crefeld Shelia) were born. All of these ,ponies except Tamarack Locket, have made important contributions to the breeding program.
Certainly 1969 and 1970 were exciting years since the first foal crops of Tamarack Matthew and Tamarack Mark were born. In 1970, the outstanding colt Tamarack Quill B-21448 (Tamarack Matthew x Tamarack Lena) was born.
Tamarack Lena 14880 was by Severn Blue Boy out of Farnley Penelope. According to Ms. Gunter, Tamarack Quill had "good bone, exceptionally straight and correct feet and legs, show presence and small pony quality in a larger size." Until Tamarack Quill's sale in 1977, he was the principal sire at Tamarack. Quill has made a lasting mark on Tamarack ponies.
In more recent years further Section B bloodlines have come to Tamarack Farm. Findeln Periwinkle B-13271 (.Brockwell Spider x Belvoir Rose Petal) added size to her offspring until her death in 1982. Two recent stallions, Crossroads Sunshine B-25611 (Plum Creek Midnight x Farnley Calla) and Farnley May time B-25281 (Farnley Lustre x Farnley Mayflower) have made important contributions of size and quality. Presently, Crossroads Sunshine stands at stud at Tamarack Farm.
Today Tamarack ponies can be found all across the United States. Tamarack Pendant (Tamarack Matthew x Tamarack Jewel) has gone on to be a champion in Ohio. Tamarack Queen (Tamarack Matthew x Tamarack Kristen) has become a top dressage pony and wins much in California. Tamarack Uranium (Tamarack Quill x Tamarack Jewel) has become a successful sire in Virginia. Tamarack Nell (Severn Blue Boy x Farnley Penelope) was a successful hunter pony on Long Island, N.Y.
Currently, Mrs. Gunter is reducing her herd. The demands of keeping a large pony herd have become too much for Virginia to handle by herself. She wishes to keep a large gelding to ride, a couple of ponies for the grandchildren and a broodmare. All of us who know Virginia Gunter are grateful for the knowledge and experiences that she freely shares with us. She is a quiet yet articulate woman who has done much to further Welsh ponies. Her childhood dream of raising beautiful Welsh ponies has certainly come true!


Tamarack Quill (Tamarack Matthew x Tamarack Lena). Photo 1978.


Tamarack Jasper. Photo 1967. Champion Roadster, state of Maine in 1967.

Tamarack Mark (GlanNant Character x Tamarack Guide Star).


Tamarack Black Pool (Crossroads Sunshine x Tamarack Whirlpool). Photo 1981.

[Tamara in TN]

all the WONDERFUL old pics are on the website:
http://www.tangwyllt.com/CribanVictor.htm

Tamara in TN

CRIBAN VICTOR
A FOUNDING FATHER OF THE SECTION B PONY
Submitted by Claudia Novak for the 1986 American National Welsh Pony Yearbook

In the 1930's the Welsh Pony and Cob Society recognized the need for the registration of "ponies of riding type". Up until this time, the Section B designation had been used for ponies of Cob type standing between 12.2 and 13.2 hands. The early days of the registration of Section B "ponies of riding type" held much confusion. Many Cobs and what could be termed by today's standards as "part-breds" crept into the Section B registry. Ponies of Oriental, Thoroughbred, Polo pony and Welsh Cob breeding played important roles in the development of today' s Section B pony. Certainly, the Section B pony had more "growing pains" than any other Section of the Welsh.
By the 1960' s the type and objective of the Section B pony of riding type was well planted in the minds of breeders both in the UK and the United States. During the period of "growth" for the Section B pony certain stallions have proved to be landmarks. One of these ponies is Criban Victor (1775) (Criban Winston x Criban Whalebone) born in 1944. Criban Victor is the best example of Section B ponies with the "outside" influence of Cob breeding. To quote Dr. Wynne Davies from a recent letter "though if (Criban) Victor had been foaled after (19)50's, he would have been in Section C (registry)". Certainly, the history of Section B ponies would have to be re-written if Criban Victor had not been part of the foundation of this section!
The story of the Criban stud is one that is steeped well in the history of the Welsh Mountain Pony and Cob. The love of the land which according to old records had been in the family since 1697 was a controlling interest of the family along with their equal love for their livestock and Welsh Ponies and Cobs. Criban Victor was a product of this love. To quote a 1964 article by Nell Pennell, "From this hardy stock the Criban ponies are descended, their records going back for 200 years." Mr. Howell Richards, who registered the prefix Criban with the Welsh Pony & Cob Society, died in 1963 at the advanced age of97. Howell Richards was notorious for his riding talents. To quote the same article written by Nell Pennell, "He rode ponies of about 13 hands. very similar in type to the Champion Welsh Pony of today, Criban Victor. Mr. Richards was a fine horseman, and being a light weight, could easily ride ponies. He had no use for cob or pony that lacked the conformation to be good ride or the limbs and feet to stand the work."
Not only did Criban use stallions of their own breeding but they went outside and used many stallions. This fact can be proved many times over but an exceedingly good example of this is Criban Victor's sire, Criban Winston. Criban Winston was one of the first sons of Coed Coch Glyndwr (1617) (Revolt x Dinarth Henol). Criban Winston's claim to fame does not just come from his most famous son, Criban Victor, but careful study of the early stud books will prove the tremendous numbers of ponies he sired. Criban Winston influence was felt at Dyrin, Bowlder and Revel along with many other studs as he was a premium stallion for ten years.
Criban Victor's dam, Criban Whalebone (9138) (Mathrafal Broadcast x Criban Mulberry) was the product of crossing one of the oldest lines of Criban' s Welsh Mountain ponies to that of a Cob. Criban Whalebone was a bay mare about 13 hands. Not only did she produce Criban Victor but also Criban Gay Snip, the grand-sire of Solway Master Bronze. Whalebone did not have a great disposition herself. to quote Dr. Wynne Davis's book Welsh Ponies And Cobs, "When she was five years old and only broken to halter, the Richards brothers decided that she would make a good shepherding pony and endeavored to break her to saddle in one day. Whalebone would have none of this; perhaps she realized that as long as she kept bucking off her riders she would be allowed to return to the hills and concentrate on producing more excellent foals!" Certainly, the heritage of fine performance ponies with marvelous dispositions played heavily in the characteristic that Criban Whalebone gave her progeny.
Criban Mulberry (Criban Cracker 1308 x Criban Rasberry (7971) traces directly to the stallions Invincible Taffy (593) and Criban Wild Wonder ( 11 79). Invincible Taffy's dam was Chocolate Lass (3442) born in 1905 and out of Ystrad Jewel (273) foaled in 1893. Invincible Taffy was a small pony (under 12 hands) but a pony that could take a rider all day on the hills either hunting or herding. Criban Wild Wonder was a son of the grey mare Wild Flash (3552) foaled in 1897 and one of the favorite driving ponies of the Richards' family because "few ponies could pass her on the road".
Mathrafal Broadcast (1502) (Mathrafal Eiddwen x Plasgwyn Polly) came to Criban in 1935. Mathrafal Broadcast was the personal mount of Llewellyn Richards. In 1937, Mrs. Alice McLean of Long Island, New York saw Mathrafal Broadcast and took a fancy to him. Along with eight lovely Criban mares, Broadcast was exported to the United States. Mrs. McLean used Broadcast on her Polo Pony mares but shortly after his importation, Mrs. McLean died. The ponies and Broadcast were sold without a trace. Mathrafal Eidden was a fine example of a Cob being a Royal Welsh Winner four times. Mathrafal Eidden's most famous influence in the Cob world was through his son, Eiddwen's Image (1703) who in turn produced Pentre Eiddwen Comet. Pentre Eiddwen Comet (1796) is the sire of Llanarth Flying Comet, Nebo Black Magic and Parc Welsh Flyer to name only a few.
Criban Victor was sold to Mrs. Cuff (Downland Stud) at the Criban Sale in November of 1946. Criban Victor was shown at the Royal Welsh in 1947 and then sold to Lord Kenyon, Gredington Stud, where he stayed until his death in 1973. Criban Victor chalked up a very impressive show record winning the Royal Welsh in 1956,1958,1959,1960 and 1964. He also won the Ponies of Britain Championships in 1959, 1962, 1965 and 1966 plus the National Pony Society Shows in 1956,1959,1960 and finally, at twenty-five years of age, the Section B Championship and Reserve Supreme Championship in 1969.
When you are in the Offices of the Welsh Pony & Cob Society in Wales, Criban Victor still watches you. If you are a stamp collector, you are sure to own a copy of the Criban Victor stamp that was issued in 1978. To the best of my knowledge (my son is the stamp collector!), Criban Victor the only Welsh Pony that has been honored with stamp in his image. FOR a little less than $1, you can purchase from any big stamp collector a memento of a Welsh pony that has been a landmark!
The influence of Criban Victor on Section B breeding both here and in the United Kingdom is monumental. Except for people that do exclusive linebreeding and in-breeding, Criban Victor can be found in many Section B pedigrees in the U.K. Here in the United States, the influence of Criban Victor can be felt even more. Out of the nine imported founding fathers of Section B breeding in the United States: Bowdel1 Buccaneer, Brockwel1 Spider, Coed Coch Ballog, Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad, Cusop Sheriff, Downland Drummer Boy, Farnley Lustre, Kirby Can Jay and Wickenden Osprey, two are Criban Victor sons (Coed Coch Ballog and Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad). The most influential imported sire of Section B breeding (Cusop Sheriff) is a great-grandson of Criban Victor. Another major imported stallion of influence, Wickenden Osprey, is a Criban Victor grandson. The Section B stallion with more get on the ground in the last ten years, Findeln Blue Danube, is a great-grandson and double great-great-grandson of Criban Victor!
*Cusop Sheriff at GlanNant Farm, N. Y. a great-grandson of Criban Victor.
Criban Victor has certainly played a major role in the development of Section B ponies here in the United States. Three sons of Criban Victor have played important roles at several major studs. The first son of Criban Victor that was imported to the United States was Ankerwycke Victor 2231 (2391) (x Ankerwycke Criban Snowdon (9555)) a brown stallion born in 1955 and imported in 1956 by Bray's Island Plantation, Yemassee, SC Ankerwycke Victor spent his last years at Neilsondale Farm, East Caledon, Canada and died in the fal1 of 1984. While at Neilsondale Stud, Ankerwycke Victor produced several foal crops and his blood will continue on.
Ankerwycke Victor (Criban Victor x Ankerwycke Criban Snowdon
Coed Coch Bal1og B*2919 (2518)(x Berwyn Beauty(9270)) is a bay stallion born in 1956 and imported in 1958 by D. H. Fraser, North Sidney, Nova Scotia., Canada. While at Duntulm Stud he produced numerous get. In more recent years, he has been owned by Cherry DeSpain of Bristol Pony Stud, Channelview, TX and is currently owned by the Burkharts of Rambur Stables, Newton, KS. Coed Coch Ballog is still alive and siring foals. Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad B-4962 (2222) (x Berwyn Beauty (9270)) was a chestnut roan stallion born in 1953 and imported in 1959 by Elliot Bonnie, Urbana, OH. Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad spent the rest of his life at the Bonnie's and his get are most commonly seen under the Buckeye prefix.
*Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad (Criban Victor x Berwyn Beauty) – Imported USA. 1959.
Three daughters of Criban Victor have greatly influenced Section B breeding here in the United States. In 1955 Mrs. Chambers of Lithgow Pony Stud, Millbrook, NY imported the two mares Vanity B-1945 (10363) (x Coed Coch Silian (9388)) and her ful1 sister Verity B-1944 (9974). Verity was the older and larger of these two full sisters. Vanity, though a hand smaller, produced a great deal of size in some of her get. Upon Mrs. Chambers death, John Lindemann of Richmond, VA took over Lithgow Pony Stud and produced the most famous get of these two mares who are Lithgow Gay Grenedier (Kirby Cane Jay x Vanity) and Lithgow Wishnik (Cusop Sheriff x Verity). Their get can be found at Bristol Pony Stud, GlanNant Farm, Madoc Welsh Pony Farm, Caer Wydr Welsh, Timbercreek Stables, and many others around the country. In 1959, Mrs. Karl Butler of GlanNant Farm, Ithaca, NY imported the great producer Coed Coch Prydyddes (B-9 3 9- F. S. 2) (x Coed Coch Pluen 312-F.S. 1). At the advanced age of33 years old, this grand old dame of Section B breeding recently passed away in the fall of 1985. Her two most famous sons, both by Cusop Sheriff are GlanNant Limerick of Findeln Stud, Bluemont, VA (sire of Findeln Blue Danube) and GlanNant Ballad who is senior stallion at GlanNant to his "kissing cousin" Bristol Victor (Coed Coch Ballog x Lithgow Wishnik). Another son, GlanNant Epic (by Farnley Reflection) is making a name as a pony hunter sire. Her most famous daughter was GlanNant Sonnet daughter of the lovely Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad son Rhyd-Y-Felin Selwyn.
*Coed Coch Prydyddes (Criban Victor x Coed Coch Pluen) at GlanNant Farm, N. Y.
GlanNant Ballad (*Cusop Sheriff x Coed Coch Prydyddes) at GlanNant Farm, NY
The influence of Criban Victor upon breeding in the United Kingdom is tremendous. Criban Victor daughters have also been used in Section C Welsh Cob breeding programs. Today there are still three living Criban Victor sons standing at stud in the U.K. The oldest of these is Gorsty Firefly (4963) (Gorsty Dusk (12951) born in 1965. Firefly is not only a Criban Victor son but his great*dam was also by Criban Victor! Burstye Flavius (5678) (Burstye Minerva (8078-F.S. 2) is a bay stallion that was born in 1966. Flavius' dam was by Clan Tony and combines some interesting Section A breeding. To the best of my knowledge the last son of Criban Victor is Wharley Taliesin (10793) (Rawthey Top Note (14623)) a grey stallion born in 1971. Rawley Top Note is an interestingly bred pony being by Pendock Zenith who was out of Pendock Stud's foundation mare Pendock Bluebell.
Gorsty Firefly (Criban Victor x Gorsty Dusk) at 18 years in the UK
Burstye Flavius (Criban Victor x Burstye Minerva) UK
The last son of Crib an Victor Wharley Taliesin (x Rawthey Top Note) F. 1971 at the Plush Stud, UK
The influence of one Criban Victor son, Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad, has left its most lasting mark. Dr. Wynne Davis devotes a whole chapter of his book to Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad. Even though Blaen Lleuad (Welsh for "new moon") only spent three mature years in the U.K. his sons and daughters have changed Welsh Section B breeding throughout the world. In an interesting letter from Mrs. Colbatch-Clark (Collena Stud) she retold the story of seeing the 1959 Coed Coch Sale that Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad was sold at. She remembers Mr. Eckley of Cusop Stud bidding on Blaen Lleuad almost until the gavel landed for the last time. Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad sold for 320 guineas which is little by today's standards but a great deal for pony in those days. How the history of Section B ponies would have to be re-written if Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad had stayed in the UK. where he could have seen the best of Section B mares. I am sure that it couldn't be anticipated that Blaen Lleuad would be such an outstanding sire and would be lost forever to the British Section B breeders.
Two daughters of Blaen Lleuad were retained by Coed Coch and went on to produce the noteworthy stallion Coed Coch Pedestr (Mrs. Smalley, Mynd Stud) and the dam of the Royal Welsh winner Coed Coch Targed. Most famous of his sons are Chirk Crogan (3566) and Chirk Caradoc (3331) who were the only progeny of Chirk Heather (1899-F.S. 2) (Criban Victor x Gredington Bronwen 312 F.S. 1). Chirk Caradoc was retained by Lady Margaret Myddelton (Chirk Stud) and produced many fine ponies for Lady Margaret. Sadly in 1984 most of the ponies had to be sold since Lady Margaret's husband gave up farming with only four mares being retained. Chirk Crogan had gone to the Weston Stud where he produced many winners and finally in 1970 went to Mrs. O. M. Weston of Seaholm Stud where he still lives. Two other Blaen Lleuad sons bear mentioning and they are Coed Coch Pawl (3350) (x Coed Coch Pluen) who sired the Royal Welsh Winner Cusop Banknote and Rhyd-Y-Felin Selwyn (2720) (x Rhyd-Y-Felin Seren Wyb) who was sold to Sweden and then re-imported by Mrs. Mountain of Twyford Stud and now lives with the Buckett's at Moorsfield Stud on the Isle of Wright.

Rhyd-Y-Felin Selwyn (C C Blaen Lleuad x Rhyd-Y-Felin Seren Wyb) F. 1956. Photo 1980 from the Neilsondale Farm, Canada
Rhyd-Y-Felin Selwyn at Isle of Wright 1982.
One test of the greatness of a stallion and his influence are the number of people that continue his blood through a line-breeding program. In the U.K. Lady Margaret Middleton (Chirk), Mrs. Colbatch-Clark (Collena) and Mr. and Mrs. A. P. Allen (Bleachgreen) just to mention a few are using this program. Here in the States, Mrs. Karl Butler (GlanNant) and Cherry DeSpain (Bristol) are currently doing Criban Victor line-breeding. In Canada, Anita Neilson (Snow Pony) has one of the largest groups of Criban Victor relatives that I know of in the world.
What impresses me most with these ponies is their bone, type and athletic nature. Snowgoose (Duntlum's Pride of Erin by Coed Coch Ballog), a Criban Victor grandson, dominated the AHSA Medium Pony Hunter circuit for many years. Two AHSA Open Pony Hunter winners have been by a Criban Victor grandson (GlanNant Epic). In the last six years, 10 ponies related to Criban Victor have been in the AHSA top six Welsh Pleasure Pony including the 1979 winner of Section B Welsh Pleasure Pony, Timbercreek Morning Mist by Lithgow Grenadier (Criban Victor grandson) and the 1985 winner of Welsh Pleasure Driving, Bristol Salome (Cusop Sheriff and Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad granddaughter and great granddaughter of Coed Coch Ballog). Whether you are doing combined driving, the hunter pony circuit or just want to go out for a good ride, these ponies will carry you to the day's end. Perhaps more than any other stallion, Criban Victor has carried on the true legacy of the Criban stud
Chirk Eos - A Chirk Caradoc granddaughter
Collena Nest (Nebo Dafydd x Merlin Verbena) Section "C" Criban Victor granddaughter.

Bristol Salome (Cusop Sheriff & Coed Coch Blaen Lleuad granddaughter & great-granddaughter of Coed Coch Ballog).

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;4642296]
The modern/new/whateveryouwanttocallit Welsh is built along the mini-TB lines that the UK breeders obviously had in mind when they introduced so very, very much TB and Arabian in (Downland in particular, of course). Longer, thinner necks, shallower bodies, rounder hips, lighter bone...but ALSO longer stride. Unquestionably longer stride--due in large part to a longer LEG and back.

which is probably why Farnley and Shenandoah went nuts using Downland Drummer Boy back in the 1970's....

http://aurigafarm.com/Origins.html

his photo bottom of page

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=quicksilverponies;4641257]I agree with you both. The mare is hugely important, and sadly, it is most often the stallion that gets blamed for a poor quality foal or a bad temperament. I don't agree that the Downland ponies are fine boned for the most part - if they couldn't hold up in the show ring, they wouldn't show up predominantly in so many winning pony pedigrees.

and there is a lot of animosity in the form of long time USA breeders in "oh they are not real welsh ponies,they are just little TB's,or BRP, bleech...."

so there is great hand wringing anytime someone new is imported;)

but hate to burst any bubbles,but they ARE section B ponies...

there is a difference in the American Section B and the British Section B....I mean how many people outside the breed know that if you bring a judge here from the motherland to judge a welsh show here in the States, they can ONLY judge the conformation classes....not performance ?

as there is not resemblance to one another from the UK to here? in what is supposed to be the same breed they cannot judge any class under saddle ?? (unless it is Ridden Cob?? Melinda ,correct me there if I am wrong)


Tamara in TN
waiting for the snow to let up I hate winter

[pwynnnorman]

Thanks for posting that treatise, Tamara. I didn't realize that Epic came from the same line as the Downlands. But as for today, wouldn't he be seen as more of a transitional type--a lot more substance?

I forgot to mention Bowdler as a very traditional type. We had a mare of that line (http://sportponiesunlimited.com/crystal1.JPG). Our Crystal was, as I often put it, "built like a brick s*&thouse"--she was soooo "foursquare" and her chest must have been a solid foot-plus wide, even though she was barely 12 hands). I think you can clearly see the old influence in her son (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2168189220066718914kgtSbd) and grandson (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2487873970066718914wmsWkz). (Just remember in looking at the pics to bring the hind leg forward!)


And, that being said I also think that too many are breeding a "finer" stallion with a "finer" mare and the resulting offspring isn't carrying forward the more substantial genes. They are being bred out, so to speak.



I'm with you there, too, VABred. I thought of this, in fact, when someone brought a Poseiden mare to breed to The Colonel. Nice moving mare, very typey, but I was thinking (but not saying) that the cross sure wasn't going to do much in the way of substance: they were just too much alike.

And we haven't even mentioned the temperament issue! Crystal's son, daughter and grandson are like a different species from my TBx babies, even though the boys are both by Kevvie.

[pwynnnorman]

Now I'm having fun at this.

Compare the pictures of Coed Coch Glyndwr (shows up in a ton of ponies): http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/coed+coch+glyndwr
and Criban Victor:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/coed+coch+glyndwr
with Downland Dauphin:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/downland+dauphin
and Downland Love In The Mist: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/downland+love-in-the-mist, both of whom show up in heavy, heavy linebreeding of Downlands.

They are like two different species--just look at the back and leg length, for example. (Hey, Love In The Mist goes back to the famous Arabian stalion Skowronek twice!)

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;4642534]Thanks for posting that treatise, Tamara. I didn't realize that Epic came from the same line as the Downlands. But as for today, wouldn't he be seen as more of a transitional type--a lot more substance?


I'd have to reply "transition to or from what ?"

you see the American A ponies before the Coed Coch ponies came over by the boatload were fine harness ponies and roadsters <gasp>

the leadline A with it's half dead persona and its daisy cutter little knees was not HERE to be shown in leadline classes

so were the Coed Coch imports better,worse or transitional;) ?

the old tanky big hocked A's were put to the Downland Drummer Boys/Criban Victor types to make the now described as "older" types....transitional or older ??

then those were refined again to match the stride counting shift from big gallopy foxhunting as an indicator of valued performance to hunter jump ring riding...

if it fits the stride pattern set by <?> (who ever the hell sets stride patterns) and does that ugly "pop thing "with it's knees
then those offspring sell....so transitional or modern ??

if we ever again went to performance in the foxhunting fields the pony would change again....

breeding is always a transition to one thing or another...

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;4642574]


and Downland Love In The Mist: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/downland+love-in-the-mist, both of whom show up in heavy, heavy linebreeding of Downlands.

most importantly in those Downland animal's was this mare
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/criban+bowbell

note the TB ?? that was polo pony breeding

Tamara in TN

[VirginiaBred]

Tamara, thank you for posting Virginia Gunter's article. Great read.

I'm more than familiar with the others and refer to them all the time, or post the links as you did. Fabulous history.

As a lover of the older, more traditional welsh pony, I think it's extremely important for some of us to try and continue that mindset of breeding like to like so that "maybe" the resulting baby will carry that overall conformation and build forward. That's the point I'm making. I understand totally the transition part, but I think in the process, overkill is happening.

[Daventry]

Ah, I wondered. I switched them. There is a great head shot of him "somewhere" also.

I will pay dearly for ANY photos of Penrhyn Sporting Chance that are out there!! :yes: The last people that had him did no PR with him, so never kept any photos or video. He came so thin last year that we needed to get him healthy and fat again before taking any photos. By the time that happened this fall, he was already getting his winter coat. We did take a bunch of photos of him a few days ago out playing in the snow, but they are for our own personal use and not necessarily photos you want to have up on a website. No Mare Owner wants to see a fat and fuzzy butter ball cantering through two feet of snow! :lol:

[Tamara in TN]

Tamara, thank you for posting Virginia Gunter's article. Great read.

.

just point of clarity the article is written by Mrs Claudia Novak of Mass. about Mrs Gunter

Tamara in TN

[Daventry]

I mean how many people outside the breed know that if you bring a judge here from the motherland to judge a welsh show here in the States, they can ONLY judge the conformation classes....not performance ?

as there is not resemblance to one another from the UK to here? in what is supposed to be the same breed they cannot judge any class under saddle ?? (unless it is Ridden Cob?? Melinda ,correct me there if I am wrong)


Yes, that is correct, but it is because our American Welsh Shows are filled with hunter classes and english and western pleasure. They don't do that over in the UK. They don't have hunters in Europe either. The Eurpoeans think we are nuts to do hunters with our warmbloods, but will gladly sell their "reject show jumpers" to any North American buyer looking to snatch up a low level hunter. It is all relative, depending on where you are located and the disciplines that are available and keep the market thriving.

UK judges are also allowed to judge the Child's First Pony and Leading Rein. The Australian Welsh basically runs the same as the UK. We brought two Australian Welsh Judges over for our show in Alberta last year. They've also judged lots in the UK, including the Royal Welsh. While the halter classes ran great, the english pleasure, western pleasure and hunter classes were a bit trying, as they had never judged it before and run their performance rings completely different. They did a superb job with what they had in front of them, but because the "British" flat classes are run so totally different, many people walked away from the show unhappy as it made for a confusing time for all.

[quicksilverponies]

Interesting discussion. I love reading everyone's opinions. There are breeders that are trying to preserve the bone and strength of the old time Welsh while producing the look and movement desired in the show ring today. I have been trying to cross my refined, heavily Downland bred stallion with some of the older, proven bloodlines and have been very pleased with the results. Here are a few of the lines I have crossed.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/quicksilver+aria

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/quicksilver+bells

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/quicksilver+crescendo

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/quicksilver+blues

[pwynnnorman]

[quote]
I'd have to reply "transition to or from what ?"

Tamara in TN

Good question, for which I suppose there is no authoritative answer. In my mind, I was thinking about "walk the lines" stride length as the ultimate in modern--with its attendance legginess and neckiness, so-to-speak/write (obviously talking about sec Bs and large and medium HPs).

For example, if you look at the leading sires list for hunter breeding, and to a certain extent, hunter ponies, and then kind of try to parcel out the stallions whose longevity and locations result in a bit of a stacked deck, what's the trend? Maybe I'm seeing into it what I want to, but I think one can pretty clearly see the dominance of TB and Downland blood, often crossed on those "transitional" lines. I suspect, in fact, that if you did a statistical analysis that could empirically remove the small ponies (in the results) and adjust for longevity and location, the trend would leap out even more clearly.

This is fascinating to me because there seem to be a set of old stallions, like Epic and Lustre, that produced a LOT of babies that had no Downland blood in them at all, but at a guess, I'd say that half of the top stallions on both lists DO. I don't know what that means, and all this hypothesizing is further obscured, of course, by the pre-DNA era, as I was reminded when I looked at Criban Biddy Bronze, dam of Solway Master Bronze, who would appear to have no "modernizing"/Downland-like blood in him (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/solway+master+bronze). However, if you look at his picture, and then her picture (and her in particular), you'd never guess Welsh.

[gasrgoose]

I'm not a breeder.

How does Alra Amber Classic rank in the pony stallion world? Are there any pictures of him online? I haven't been able to find any.

www.allbreedpedigree.com/alra+amber+classic

[VirginiaBred]

I'm not a breeder.

How does Alra Amber Classic rank in the pony stallion world? Are there any pictures of him online? I haven't been able to find any.

www.allbreedpedigree.com/alra+amber+classic (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/alra+amber+classic)


Hard to find published photos. He sired a bunch of ponies (check Progeny unter your link) but as far as what sort of mark they made in the hunter pony world, it wasn't as significant as some of his counterparts. There were the obvious stars for sure. Nice looking children, most definitely!

[Tamara in TN]

as I was reminded when I looked at Criban Biddy Bronze, dam of Solway Master Bronze, who would appear to have no "modernizing"/Downland-like blood in him (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/solway+master+bronze). However, if you look at his picture, and then her picture (and her in particular), you'd never guess Welsh.

look past her and him and back to the 1920's stallion that they all have in common...via Socks,Sweetly and BumbleBee (twice)
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/criban+shot

does he say Welsh to you ?? :)

gotta jet to town ttyl

Tamara in TN

[farmgirl88]

This is our Stallion who is by Rotherwood Crown Prince and out of CC Echo by Findeln Blue Danube. I personally think he is a wonderful example of the "old type" with bone, some substance, but still refined and elegant without the squished, extremely narrow head with the bug eyes and stick legs of much of the hunter ponies people LOVE today.

He did very well while we showed him for years under both the UK and the US judges but the UK judges definately loved him much more than the US judges (who always minaly came from backgrounds of breeding hunter type ponies)> the stallions who always competed against him were always lacking substances, had the throughbred look about them and just lacked welsh type.

i think ive complained about this very issue a year or two ago.

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/benleasealily/NEWPCS/?action=view&current=princenewpcs076.jpg

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/benleasealily/NEWPCS/?action=view&current=princenewpcs075.jpg

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/benleasealily/NEWPCS/?action=view&current=princenewpcs071.jpg

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/benleasealily/Prince/?action=view&current=princeheadshot3.jpg

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/benleasealily/Prince/?action=view&current=383dbf8e.jpg

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/benleasealily/Prince/?action=view&current=6da473a6.jpg

[farmgirl88]

look past her and him and back to the 1920's stallion that they all have in common...
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/criban+shot

does he say Welsh to you ?? :)

gotta jet to town ttyl

Tamara in TN

Criban shot was a section A. and while he isnt as thick as most section A's bred today, he certaintly does resemble a welsh pony...of section A type

[farmgirl88]

as I was reminded when I looked at Criban Biddy Bronze, dam of Solway Master Bronze, who would appear to have no "modernizing"/Downland-like blood in him (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/solway+master+bronze). However, if you look at his picture, and then her picture (and her in particular), you'd never guess Welsh.

Pwynn-

I personally think all three ponies (master bronze, his sire and his dam) are all lovely examples of section B's. Whilst his sire looks abit overweight in the photo both master bronze and his sire are lovely examples of true Section B's with more bone and substance. They were truly influencial sires on the sect. B's we have today. the dam of Master Bronze does appear to be a more of a riding pony type but she is also a SHE -leading to a pony who is going to be more refined, short coupled, and less "beefy", as say the two stallions you are comparing her to. All 3 ponies are lovely examples of true "old school" section B's though.

[farmgirl88]

If any of you want to seephotos from The Royal Welsh show in the UK, Gail from gayfield's posts them yearly. Just look at the type on those ponies and now go look at what American's have chosen as their type of welsh pony...or "mini TB" as i like to call them. I LOVE the look of the UK section B's and A's. Just true-to-type ponies.

here is the link to the links of her photos:

http://www.gayfieldswelshponies.com/homeofthenews.html

[rideagoldenpony]

It's important to note that the Section B's as we know them, only came about in the 1950's. They are the "newbie" within the Welsh breeds. In light of that fact, may of the old time/early ponies were "created" on a journey to get to something else.

Also, Coed Coch Glyndwr, was a Section A (saw him mentioned above) and Criban Victor's size came from the Cob -- so you will see more bone/substance/heaviness in the C Victor bred ponies, than you will in the Downland bred ponies, which are lighter and finer. (One is not better or worse than the other, but they ARE a very different type.)

In the 1980's, there was a bit of a fad in the UK with the Section B's, where people wanted to produce ponies that looked like the BRP. Fortunately that fad has come and gone, as that was not good for the Section. I saw a few that looked like that when I was there, but not very many.

Should you ever have the opportunity to visit the UK and see the Welsh in their homeland, you ought to do that. It is EXTREMELY eye opening and educational, and I don't think that you can recieve that sort of education anywhere else.

When I visited Wales in 2004, we saw over 1000 Welsh in a 2 week period. There's no place in the US to do anything similar. The education of a lifetime.

The next best thing to help develop your eye is to start looking at lots and lots of web sites all over the world. If you want to look at animals in the UK, you can start here: http://www.welshpony.co.uk If you want to see animals that are being bred in the US, go here: http://www.welshpony.org/farms.htm

[pwynnnorman]

traditional welsh pony, I think it's extremely important for some of us to try and continue that mindset of breeding like to like so that "maybe" the resulting baby will carry that overall conformation and build forward. That's the point I'm making. I understand totally the transition part, but I think in the process, overkill is happening.

VABred, have you heard any discourse on judges favoring more substance in the in-hand or model classes? Do you think there'd be any potential to influence substance (in breeding programs) from that direction?

[pwynnnorman]

look past her and him and back to the 1920's stallion that they all have in common...via Socks,Sweetly and BumbleBee (twice)
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/criban+shot

does he say Welsh to you ?? :)

gotta jet to town ttyl

Tamara in TN

I think he does, if you rearrange him from the picture. Do you? (He may have a touch of Hackney-like blood in him perhaps, given his profile--but not necessarily.)

But! Looking "past" that mare may be irrelevant, Tamara, if her mom wandered into someone else's pasture, with or without help! :winkgrin:

[VirginiaBred]

VABred, have you heard any discourse on judges favoring more substance in the in-hand or model classes? Do you think there'd be any potential to influence substance (in breeding programs) from that direction?

I have talked to some judges pwynn regarding type. It's no secret that the TB look usually overshadows the more welsh look in the in-hand classes. What is not getting pinned are the finer boned animal. If breeders continue to breed the substance out of a cross, the resulting foal will be less substantial, more fine boned and more BRP looking. That's one of the many reason's I am a purest. I seldom breed a crossbred mare (or to a crossbred stallion) but if I do (and I have, just not often) it better have a stellar pedigree of its own.

I worry about bone quality and the years of performance that lie ahead, so I'm thinking way down the road with my program.

Do I think there is "any potential to influence substance (in breeding programs) from that direction?" You bet I do.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;4644568]I think he does, if you rearrange him from the picture. Do you? (He may have a touch of Hackney-like blood in him perhaps, given his profile--but not necessarily.)

no those were the typical welsh mountain ponies of the age....they were not pit ponies but rather harness ponies for governess carts and such...an old book from the 1920's here in the states says that their size makes them safer than Shetlands for driving in traffic



But! Looking "past" that mare may be irrelevant, Tamara, if her mom wandered into someone else's pasture, with or without help! :winkgrin:

true...but he breeds to to type esp the head and shoulders and you can see than in all the offspring.... all the way down to Biddy Bronze....

his granddaughter,Sunray, is said to be the Granddame of Farnley having 14 babies for them...she is his twin plus a broodie belly(pic combined Welsh stud book III,IV,1913-1955, pg 5 with baby at foot Farnley Sunbeam)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/criban+sunray

hit the progeny button and see what Herself did while she was here....:)

Solway MB has his Mothers neck and his Daddy's hips...all that mess of mane hides a lot of that from view...

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=farmgirl88;4643046]
Pwynn-

I personally think all three ponies (master bronze, his sire and his dam) are all lovely examples of section B's. Whilst his sire looks abit overweight in the photo both master bronze and his sire are lovely examples of true Section B's with more bone and substance.



his daddy was an A

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

just for giggles, if you ever wondered why all the Liseter ponies were grey and tiny and cute here is the stallion Mrs Dupont leased to breed to:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/william3

have a peek at who he sired:) and he was an old pony when she started to use him in the 1950's

also note the type difference in he and Shot...they were only 10 years apart and the exact same section, but bred two totally different ways

Tamara in TN

[rideagoldenpony]

The single biggest contributing factor to the change in Welsh Ponies in the US, is the hunter pony industry. Many ponies have been bred for that, away from the breed standard. Yes, there are some that can fit/do both, but in general, a typical hunter pony is not necessarily what an ideal Welsh Pony should be.

Here is the standard, in case you've not seen it, or haven't reviewed it in a while. It's an import item to read regularly, IMO. (This is taken from a UK site, and lists their height limit.)

Breed Standard

General Character - The Section B is a riding pony with quality, riding action, adequate bone and substance, hardiness of constitution with pony character

Height - Not exceeding 13.2hh

Colour & Markings - Any colour except piebald and skewbald

Head - Small, clean -cut, well set on and tapering to muzzle. Eyes bold. Ears well placed, small and pointed. Set well up on the head, proportionately close. Nostrils wide and open

Jaws and Throat - Clean and finely-cut, with ample room at the angle of jaw

Neck - Lengthy, well carried and moderately lean in the case of mares, but inclined to be cresty in the case of mature stallions

Shoulders - Long and sloping well back. Withers moderately fine, but not "knifey". The humerus upright so that the foreleg is not set in under the body

Forelegs - Set square and true and not tied in at the elbows. Long strong forearm, well developed knee. Short flat bone below the knee, pasterns of proportionate slope and length. Feet well shaped and round. Hooves dense

Body - Muscular, strong and well coupled back and loins. Deep girth with well sprung ribs

Hindquarters - Lengthy and fine. Not cobby, ragged or goose-rumped. Tail well set on and carried gaily

Hind Legs - Hocks to be large, flat and clean with points prominent, to turn neither inwards nor outwards. The hind leg not be too bent. The hock not to be set behind a line from the point of the quarter to the fetlock joint. Pasterns of proportionate slope and length. Feet well shaped and hooves dense

Action - Riding action. Free and straight from the shoulder, well away in front. Hocks well flexed with straight and powerful leverage and well under the body

[pwynnnorman]

just for giggles, if you ever wondered why all the Liseter ponies were grey and tiny and cute here is the stallion Mrs Dupont leased to breed to:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/william3

Tamara in TN

Hah! That's pretty amazing to see. This history is just fascinating.

Rideagoldpony, the problem with breed characteristics is that 95% of what is written would describe any well-built horse or pony. (Must admit, though, that "nostrils wide and open" had me chuckling.) It'd be nice to identify the breed's distinguishing traits (or, actually, perhaps one section vs. another?).

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;4645990]Hah! That's pretty amazing to see. This history is just fascinating.

cool huh ? which is why I spend endless winter hours entering the old studbooks online...I got a boring life what can I say ??:lol::lol:

anyway FFWD to today....would ANYONE dare post a pic of William and announce him as their new stallion ??

could you hear the howls of protest???? :lol::lol::lol::lol:
but that 11 hand rascal changed the face of an entire breed:yes:

Tamara in TN

[Daventry]

The single biggest contributing factor to the change in Welsh Ponies in the US, is the hunter pony industry.


I couldn't agree more! :cry: It's why we see a change in Cob type over here too, as everything has to conform to the hunter/jumper, dressage and eventing markets. Unfortunately, that is where the money is in North America.

[Sugarbrook]

"Where The Money Is" Oh yes. That is correct.

[LovesHorses]

Am I missing something?? That description of a Welsh pony is exactly what I want in a hunter pony! It is also what I see win on the A circuit.

[quicksilverponies]

I was thinking the same thing Lara! I know there are some different looking ponies out there, but what some of us are trying to breed is a true Welsh pony that can compete in the hunter ring and the breed shows. It is possible to do both.

[Joanne]

I'm not bringing anything into the discussion, but reading through the posts made me think of my first equine ever: I was given a six-month old Welsh colt from Crossroads Farm when they were in Lyme, NH. I think Gordon Heard moved to Virginia?

His name was Crossroads Clown and I trained him for riding and driving. I miss him. Did they have stud books and would Clown be in there? He was born in 1967.

[VirginiaBred]

Am I missing something?? That description of a Welsh pony is exactly what I want in a hunter pony! It is also what I see win on the A circuit.


I know, right? Where is the blue ribbon smilie for your post? ;):lol:

[Tamara in TN]

I think Gordon Heard moved to Virginia?

His name was Crossroads Clown and I trained him for riding and driving. I miss him. Did they have stud books and would Clown be in there? He was born in 1967.

yes he would be in the studbook for that year....I only have up to 1955 as those were the years that interested me...Gretchen might have that issue ??

Tamara in TN

[rideagoldenpony]

yes he would be in the studbook for that year....I only have up to 1955 as those were the years that interested me...Gretchen might have that issue ??

Tamara in TN

I should have that one.... I'll trot over to my mom's today (they are on her bookshelves) and see if I've got him listed in one.

[yellowpony]

Full bridles on exquisite heads ON THE VERTICLE! Can you imagine trying to frame up a "stout" pony that way? Good luck with that neck!



Was interested to read this because I consider my guy STOUT.. so yes I can imagine it. It looks like this!
tylwyth mystic prince (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/52/115063714_a7b23cbdca_o.jpg)

and this. (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/135683874_64df401722_o.jpg)

[oakviewfarm]

Interesting thread with lots of great info. While there are limited opportunities to breed to older bloodlines, it is still possible. We are very proudly offering Champlain Rainmaker (Smoke Tree Mountain Ash x Cymraeg Raindrop by Farnley Lustre) at stud. He offers great bone, correct conformation, excellent hunter type movement, a gorgeous head with those tiny ears and bug eyes we all love, and the best personality one could ask for! His get are proven winners too- Center Field (breeder Robin Greenwood) won the large pony under saddle at Washington International Horse Show, as well as taking home a blue over fences at Pennsylvania National. Please become a Facebook Fan of Champlain Rainmaker so you can see photos, updates of his get and get more information on breeding. And if you have a "Max" baby, please feel free to post your pics! We love to see where his babies are and what they are up to!!

[VirginiaBred]

We are very proudly offering Champlain Rainmaker (Smoke Tree Mountain Ash x Cymraeg Raindrop by Farnley Lustre) at stud.

He, without question, is one of the best standing Section B stallions today.

Lovely, lovely pony with a fabulous pedigree.

[nightmoves]

Does anyone happen to have a picture of BUNBURY JAMBOREE? He is the sire of my pony (Smoke Tree Sir Galahad) and I've been trying to locate a photo without much luck.

[Summerwood]

There is a photo of Bunbury Jamboree online somewhere. Let me see if I can find it for you.

Here it is, at the bottom of the page, and not the greatest photos but all I have ever been able to find:

http://www.moosemeadowponies.biz/hollywood.html

[nightmoves]

There is a photo of Bunbury Jamboree online somewhere. Let me see if I can find it for you.

Here it is, at the bottom of the page, and not the greatest photos but all I have ever been able to find:

http://www.moosemeadowponies.biz/hollywood.html
Great big Thank You!