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Jsalem
May. 29, 2003, 09:15 AM
This has been really bugging me. Is is just me?

We have a beautiful viewing deck next to our ring. Parents sit and watch lessons (no problem) But this drive me nuts: Every time I give a little walk break after a flat work set, some of the riders make a bee-line over to that deck and mommy gets up, hands them their water bottle, kid sucks down the drink, mommy offers words of encouragement, whatever. Meanwhile, teacher is standing in the middle of the ring, waiting for riders to rehydrate and feel ready to continue.

Yesterday, it was 75 degrees and absolutely beautiful in Atlanta. I had one group of beginners (now how dehydrated could they have been?)stop 3 times for a drink.

I just think its rude to the teacher and ridiculous in terms of health. I never, never took a drink to the ring with me when I rode. I hydrated before and after the lesson. Of course, July is possibly another matter, but really!

I just think this is very subtle interference with my lesson. I think "breaks" should be used for stretching, resting and reflecting- not getting a "fix" from mommy!

Okay, I'm done.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

Jsalem
May. 29, 2003, 09:15 AM
This has been really bugging me. Is is just me?

We have a beautiful viewing deck next to our ring. Parents sit and watch lessons (no problem) But this drive me nuts: Every time I give a little walk break after a flat work set, some of the riders make a bee-line over to that deck and mommy gets up, hands them their water bottle, kid sucks down the drink, mommy offers words of encouragement, whatever. Meanwhile, teacher is standing in the middle of the ring, waiting for riders to rehydrate and feel ready to continue.

Yesterday, it was 75 degrees and absolutely beautiful in Atlanta. I had one group of beginners (now how dehydrated could they have been?)stop 3 times for a drink.

I just think its rude to the teacher and ridiculous in terms of health. I never, never took a drink to the ring with me when I rode. I hydrated before and after the lesson. Of course, July is possibly another matter, but really!

I just think this is very subtle interference with my lesson. I think "breaks" should be used for stretching, resting and reflecting- not getting a "fix" from mommy!

Okay, I'm done.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

ponyjumper4
May. 29, 2003, 09:31 AM
If they are beginners, and possibly young children, cut them some slack, especially if it is 75+ degrees outside. The kids I work with ask if it's ok for them to have a water break if they've got some with them and usually I let them because it's a very rare occurance, plus one of my kids has diabetes so she has to take breaks sometimes. I haven't had any problems with parents yet. Most of them come down to the ring and watch. One parent will ask questions or make comments, but only to learn herself and not interfere with the lesson.

Adult Pony Rider Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Piper
May. 29, 2003, 09:32 AM
Gawd, jsalem, lighten up!!!! Maybe these beginners needs a little support from their moms. Big deal and so what? They are paying CUSTOMERS aren't they?

slp
May. 29, 2003, 09:41 AM
We have a cute little girl (8-9 yr old) that rides at our barn and she always get thirsty. She solved the problem by having her mom get her one of those "camelback" packs, it's like a mini backpack with a long straw attached. Now she wears it when she rides and if she ever needs a drink, it's right there with her.
We're still trying to explain to her that "no, you can't wear it under your hunt coat when you are at a show". http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Susan

RugBug
May. 29, 2003, 09:51 AM
The only break I get in the lesson is after flatting while jumps are being set. And then the break is more for my horse. I personally don't like breaks because they break the rhythm of the ride but some people, especially beginners, need them.

Is it really the break that bothers you, or is it the parental coddling?

You should set a specific time, say five minutes while jumps are being set or inbetween trot and canter where the riders may get a drink, etc. After the five minutes it's back to work. That way, instructors aren't waiting around and parents can do their thing as well.

OneonOne
May. 29, 2003, 09:53 AM
Ok, I have a problem with parent coaching from the sidelines ("heels down, honey!"). You are paying the trainer for that purpose. If the parents know so much, they can teach lessons on their own property.

However, taking water breaks? I think you are being a little TOO demanding. Some people are especially susceptible to heat (like me), especially if the weather has suddenly warmed up and you aren't used to it. I have been a teaching assistant at a geology field camp in Wyoming during the heat of the summer. I have seen lots of people get very sick because of the heat. Heat stroke is scary, and is easily avoided by staying hydrated. I would NEVER protest someone who requested a short break to take a drink. They are paying you, and if they want to take 5 minutes of their lesson for their HEALTH, I think you should respect that.

_________________________________

** Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious. **

Giddy-up
May. 29, 2003, 09:54 AM
Guess it depends on the "break". Do they ride over, grab a drink quick, and ride right back to continue the lesson? Or is it they go over for drink, re-hash first 1/2 of lesson with parents giving their opinion also, discuss after lesson plans (dinner, movie, etc...), then after say 10/15 minutes stroll back over to continue lesson? I would have to say the 2nd scenario would really bug me! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Especially if it was a group lesson. What do the other riders do while waiting for the "break taker" to return? And what about the poor horse? Their "lesson" is also extended in the heat with no refreshments if the break takes an extra 10/15 minutes.

Liverpool
May. 29, 2003, 10:00 AM
Riding, for most of us, is supposed to be recreational and FUN. Particularly for beginners, I don't see what a big deal it is for them to get a quick drink of water during a couple minutes' break. If they get a few words of encouragement in the process, so much the better.

Learning to ride is difficult. It is likely these riders are less fit than you might think, and are both tired and hot/thirsty by the time a break is needed. Once they have rehydrated, they can go back to "work" and focus again, without being distracted by feeling how they are feeling (hot, tired, thirsty) and will probably be able to concentrate better on what you are asking them to do.

"It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham

Beethoven
May. 29, 2003, 10:02 AM
You should just tell them that if they want water that they should set it on a jump and get it from there. Then no parents are involved and getting the drink would probably go faster.

~Jenna & Beethoven~
Proud Member of the Thoroughbred Clique & the Children's Jumpers Clique & the GA Clique & TS Clique "To ride or not to ride? What a stupid question!"

KJoy
May. 29, 2003, 10:11 AM
What's the big deal? Especially if they are young kids - they like getting a tiny bit of encouragement from Mom, and having a drink when they are thirsty. It's not like the Moms are yelling instructions at their kids from the sidelines! Maybe it's just a hot button for you, but I wouldn't let my annoyance show - I'm sure the Moms would be kind of mad if their kids taking a fun lesson were being snapped at or glared at for having a quick drink!

Elghund2
May. 29, 2003, 10:28 AM
I started riding as an adult and my wife would come watch. She'd hold a bottle of water for me and I'd pick it up as I came by, get a drink and then give it back to her.

These kids and their parents are being smart.

"I thought I was dead once but it turns out, I was only in Nebraska."

Jsalem
May. 29, 2003, 10:30 AM
What bothers me is that the kids take their attention off the lesson. Believe me, I am not rough and tough. Ask Beethoven. I'm pretty entertaining and give frequent breaks depending on the level and age of the kids. During the breaks, we laugh and talk and take the pressure off.

I guess my position is that parents don't sit in the kindergarten class and wait on their kids. Nor do they interject themselves into ballet class or gymnastics class, etc. I don't think it's appropriate. I am absolutely not advocating unhealthy practices- this is a sport and we have to be careful with our athletes. I am a mom myself and am really pretty nuturing to my students.

I have decided to take all drinks from parents at the beginning of the lessons and put them inside the ring on a jump. When we take a break, kids can come in for a break and chit chat with the other class members- not the audience.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

Czar
May. 29, 2003, 10:38 AM
My goodness...times sure have changed since I was a kid taking lessons. What's all this about a break? Never heard of such a thing. It's one hour, if that, for crying out loud!! I can certainly see how people with health issues might need a break but really...one riding lesson is hardly that much of a work out especially at the beginner stage.

Jsalem...I can empathize with you. I would find it incredibly irritating and rude if my students seemed to think that I had nothing better to do than stand around and wait for them to finish their break. Yes, you are being paid, but horseback riding lessons aren't like other services...the trainer is taking time out of their day (which is often extremely busy as such is life with horses) so wasting it by dawdling around, showing up late, or taking extensive breaks is uncalled for.

As much as a client is doing you a favour by paying you, as a trainer, you are also doing them a favour by teaching them. This is an equal relationship - unlike other services where the customer is always right.

gray17htb
May. 29, 2003, 10:39 AM
I teach in florida. I have to encourage everyone to bring water and drink.Look on the bright side, if your teaching from 5-6, they can take as many breaks as they want...the lesson still ends at 6 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MissingInAction
May. 29, 2003, 10:47 AM
I guess it would be better to take a water break than having the rider get dehyrated and fall off! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I, personally never get a break unless it's really hot and my trainer is setting up jumps. Although sometimes that never happens because the horse spooks at the water bottle! As long as the break isn't too long and is not in the middle of, let's say, trotting or cantering, I don't see a major problem.

If the parents were teaching from the sidelines, I could see the problem. I hate when I see parents teaching their child when their trainer is right in the ring.

RugBug
May. 29, 2003, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Czar:
one riding lesson is hardly that much of a work out especially at the beginner stage.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you remember what it was like learning how to post? And learning two point? Yikes...those were some of the hardest and most tiring lessons.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Yes, you are being paid, but horseback riding lessons aren't like other services...the trainer is taking time out of their day (which is often extremely busy as such is life with horses)

As much as a client is doing you a favour by paying you, as a trainer, you are also doing them a favour by teaching them. This is an equal relationship - unlike other services where the customer is always right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since when aren't riding lessons like other services? Yes, they are not like shopping in Bloomies, but they are like any other type of lesson (dance, music, tae kwan doe, whatever) situation. Favours aren't being handed out...it's a business and each side has responsibilities. I would never ride with someone who made me feel like they were "taking time out of their busy schedule" to give me a lesson.

JSalem think it's distracting for her students to get water from their parents so she's come up with a way that will keep the lesson focused while still giving a water break. Sounds fine with me.

Short story about parents: my mom came and watched me ride for the first time in about 15 years. She wanted to take a picture of me and horse in front of the panel jump with my barn's name on it. So during the flat/jump transition she tells me to go stand by it. Eesh! I had to remind her I was in the middle of my lesson and to wait til afterward. Parents! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

mcmIV
May. 29, 2003, 11:02 AM
I think you're being too picky.

I was going to suggest if it'simply the interaction with parents in the middle of the lesson that irks you, to just hold their bottles for them in the ring somewhere. You have a right to your pet peeves - so that seems like a fair compromise. You already said that was your plan though. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I might be a minority - but the one thing that really really hurts my focus and enjoyment of riding is being thirsty. And I get thirsty really easily when the weather hits 70+... for some reason.

The need to have water consumes my brain and I spend every moment I'm not specifically doing something under watch wishing I could have a drink and lamenting my dry mouth. It seems worthwhile to simply take some gulps of water during the lesson rather than be miserable and unfocused.

It's fair to say riding is hard work, requires determination and is demanding and not always a walk in the park.... but I don't think denying a student water as necessary qualifies as "hard work" or "determination"!

I like requiring them to give you any items needy during class and forbidding them interaction with parents during the lesson.

That way they can have their water, and take a lesson too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

reefy!
May. 29, 2003, 11:04 AM
If it's just a 'hydration' break, YOU could be the keeper of the water/drink.

When you all take a rest, they come to the middle to you and you hand them a drink.

That's what we do here in the desert. Of course, we're riding in 100 degree weather, even though it's a 'dry heat'. We do get awfully thirsty!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is nothing so grand as to fly on the back of a horse!

Czar
May. 29, 2003, 11:08 AM
Rugbug...

How many hundreds of threads on this BB deal with clients who are with trainers who are demanding, over sensitive, or apathetic? Do you think these people would take that from someone else in the service world? I highly doubt it.

I respected all of the trainers that I have dealt with and taken lessons from. I always felt that I was there b/c they had agreed to teach me and that they were doing me a favor and as such, I would NEVER contradict or make excuses. Than again, I have had great trainers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> JSalem think it's distracting for her students to get water from their parents so she's come up with a way that will keep the lesson focused while still giving a water break. Sounds fine with me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said it wasn't...but I still think that it's rude to take an extended break during a lesson while the trainer is standing there waiting for you to finish.

Also, if a student was having trouble with a particular issue (two point, sitting trot) than they can walk for a couple of minutes and talk to the trainer about it...they don't need to go off and have a chat with mommy or daddy. That's for after the lesson.

Jsalem
May. 29, 2003, 11:10 AM
Thank you Czar! We must be cut out of the same cloth.

The first time this really came to my attention and bothered me, I jokingly told the kids, "When I was young, we didn't have water bottles. Heck, when I was young, we didn't have water!"

Unfortunately, they didn't take the hint, hence the need for a new policy.

Another phrase used around my barn for those hovering moms, "Step away from the child"

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

Bumpkin
May. 29, 2003, 11:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jsalem:
What bothers me is that the kids take their attention off the lesson. Believe me, I am not rough and tough. Ask Beethoven. I'm pretty entertaining and give frequent breaks depending on the level and age of the kids. During the breaks, we laugh and talk and take the pressure off.

I guess my position is that parents don't sit in the kindergarten class and wait on their kids. Nor do they interject themselves into ballet class or gymnastics class, etc. I don't think it's appropriate. I am absolutely not advocating unhealthy practices- this is a sport and we have to be careful with our athletes. I am a mom myself and am really pretty nuturing to my students.
...."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this mean that you don't want the parents to even watch?
I do not interrupt lessons ever, but if I was not allowed to watch I would not pay for the lessons anymore.
When the Bumpkinette's lessons were an hour long I always let her have a water bottle, but now that she is older and the lessons are 30 min long, she has only asked for the water after her lesson.

I have to admit, I was a bit taken back, when I saw the water bottle was pretty normal "attire" at lessons when the Bumpkinette started.
We never had that luxury in the "olde days" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"

Czar
May. 29, 2003, 11:14 AM
No problem jsalem http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I feel your pain...during the brief period that I taught, I was irritated to no end that people seemed to think that I had nothing better to do than stand around and wait for them. My particular issue was students showing up an hour late for their lesson (no phonecall) and still expecting to be taught. Geesh!! What ever happened to common courtesy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jsalem
May. 29, 2003, 11:23 AM
Oh no, Bumpkin, I love for parents to watch. I might even include them a little- "See how her heel comes up?" "See how her left shoulder is lower"

I just don't like them to coddle the kids. You know, sometimes we push. Parents need to let me do my thing. They have to trust that I have the student's best interests at heart. If I push, its because its time to make a breakthrough. If a parent feels that I'm not the right trainer for their kid (like if I was actually unkind,not just tough), I would expect them to take their business elsewhere. Thats cool. I have my own style and its not for everyone. I want to teach people who want to learn to ride well- sometimes its really hard.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

ponyjumper4
May. 29, 2003, 11:33 AM
I don't understand why you are complaining about the parents. In your original post, all you said was that the kids would come to them to get water and then their parents would offer some encouraging words or whatever--basically they just went to get the water. I don't see where the parents are interfering at all. You didn't mention anything about them saying things during the lesson to their kids or trying to instruct from the rail, which would be interfering and is a perfectly good reason for you to be upset. It seems that the only problem you have is the kids going away to get the water, not really with the parents.

Adult Pony Rider Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jsalem
May. 29, 2003, 12:46 PM
Wouldn't you find it odd, though, if parents stood up during ballet class and waved a water bottle for kiddies to run over for breaks? I just think its wierd.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

BreezeyHtr
May. 29, 2003, 12:48 PM
If you don't want the kids to go to their mommy to get water during the lesson why don't you suggest that the kid bring a water bottle into the ring and set it on the ground or on a standard or something? You can't make people not drink water. Some people just need to be rehydrated more than others.

"Life's tough! Wear a helmet!"

Jsalem
May. 29, 2003, 12:51 PM
That's definitely my solution. But I sure feel better for having this forum to vent.

I think the big issue for me is that today's kids seem to be really "soft" And some parents want me to make their kids successful, but they don't want their kids to ever be uncomfortable. That's probably another topic!

Thanks everyone.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

paxton
May. 29, 2003, 12:53 PM
Drink your water! Last week I passed out after dismounting because of dehydration. I have never passed out before and it was scary! The instructor at my barn gives at least 3 water breaks when the weather gets warmer. Because I am an adult I must keep my water on a coop or the fence and my horse always grabs it and knocks it to the ground. I wish I had my mommy giving me water http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif (aka the support), I don't think my mom has seen me ride for 15 years!

ccoronios
May. 29, 2003, 01:01 PM
I think gray... hit it on the head - the lesson is a 1-hr lesson (say, 5 - 6). Lesson begins at 5, ends at 6. If kiddies take 15 min to chat with parents and get water or whatever, the lesson becomes 45 min. Oh well.....
I like the idea of the water being in the ring and discussing the lesson during a brief break.

www.ayliprod.com (http://www.ayliprod.com)
Equine Video and Still Photography in the Northeast

ponyjumper4
May. 29, 2003, 01:03 PM
Ballet classes are also not done outdoors under the sun. I almost blacked out from the heat once, it was very scary. No one was around either. I had just gotten my pony back to the barn and had her in her stall and I could barely see to the end of the barn (which was only a couple of yards) and couldn't walk straight to the end of it and got very dizzy. I made it to the washrack and turned on a hose and put it all over my face then layed down in the shade for a few minutes to recooperate. You can get heat strokes even indoors, but the risk is greater outside and I don't blame the parents for being overly concerned because you can die from it and once you do have a heat stroke, you are more likely to have one again.

I just didn't really see how the parents were interfering in this instance. You allowed the kids a break, they went and got water. The solution you mentioned earlier should solve the problem.

Adult Pony Rider Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jsalem
May. 29, 2003, 01:05 PM
Maybe I should have titled this thread, "Trainers- are you a sadist?"

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

mcmIV
May. 29, 2003, 01:14 PM
Ok, I thought these breaks were specifically given by *you* the trainer...not randomly taken by the students.... which is it?

If you give them a 2 minute break, what's wrong with getting a couple gulps of water.

I have never been in a lesson that was constant forward motion for 1 solid hour. They might be hard work, but there is always a few moments when we walk on a loose rein, or come to the center for a recap explanation of the topic.

So is it "soft" for a student to take that opportunity to drink some water.. it's only 10-30 seconds of time.

"And some parents want me to make their kids successful, but they don't want their kids to ever be uncomfortable. "

I don't think needing a drink of water qualifies as being "easy or soft" on a kid doing a sport.

If these kids were refusing to drop their stirrups, complaining cause they were tired of trotting in 2-point....then you have a good rant!

And on every soccer & softball team, gymnastic, aerobic, swimming or tennis class I've been with - we had free access to a water bottle or a water fountain when the need arose. Maybe not in the middle of a play, but certainly at reasonable intervals.

Anything that improves physical perform and mental focus should be A-OK....

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Jsalem
May. 29, 2003, 01:21 PM
yes, I do call the breaks. I really don't mind them drinking. Its the drama of gulp, gulp, wipe the sweat off the brow after 10 minutes of 2 pt, no stirrups, sitting trot.

You know, its probably a hot point for me because I have show kids that I CANNOT get to work on their own without stirrups. Only when I lead a class will they actually push themselves. Makes me nuts. During lessons, they don't refuse to drop stirrups, but they groan and complain and look like they're dying.

A very small minority of my students will actually work on the tough stuff in between lessons.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

Jeni
May. 29, 2003, 01:22 PM
I started riding when I was ten. My lessons were for one full hour. In that time, we did take a lot of breaks to start because my coach understood that riding is very demanding on the rider, but to stop and chat with my Mum was not acceptable. She kept our drinks in the center of the ring, and if we needed it, we came in and had a sip.

I now teach kids myself, and I run my lessons the same way. I make sure that my students know that it is ok to take a breather if they need it during their lesson, or come in for a drink if they are thirsty, but there is no chit chat with Mum or Dad sitting outside the ring until after the lesson is over and the horses are taken care of.

Yes lessons should be fun, and yes I do encourage a good time and lots of laughs, but I do object to un-necessary socializing. The way I look at it is this - you are here to ride, not chat with Mum and and Dad...you can save that for the ride home.

I would suggest talking to the parents and letting them know that you consider the chat time is a bit of a disruption to the flow of the lesson. Let them know that if their kids need a drink during the lesson that's fine, but chatting is not accepatble.

Proud To Be A Canadian Sport Horse Owner

Bumpkin
May. 29, 2003, 01:29 PM
Oh I agree it was all new to me, seeing the water bottles coming out. haha
But I do understand, and don't want anyone to become dehydrated.
Keeping them in the middle seems better to me also.
That way the trainer can say something when handing the bottle over, if it is not on top of a jump standard for the rider.

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"

Tucked_Away
May. 29, 2003, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jsalem:
You know, its probably a hot point for me because I have show kids that I CANNOT get to work on their own without stirrups...During lessons, they don't refuse to drop stirrups, but they groan and complain and look like they're dying.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think your solution sounds like a good one. Water definitely needs to be available, especially in hot and/or dusty weather, and I don't see any problem with a few gulps during a walk break. I'm actually cheering for kids who bring their own bottles -- I kept having to chase the campers down last summer to make sure they were drinking.

I wonder if you wouldn't have more luck with the above problem if you tackled it in a different fashion? Rather than cutting off the ways they're trying to get out of the no stirrup work, etc., you could maybe try putting them in control of how much they do: "Okay, guys, I want five consecutive minutes of no-stirrup work without complaints, and then you can stop and get a drink." (Or whatever's appropriate to their level.)

If they groan and whine and carry on, they have to keeping working until they straighten up. If they and develop some work ethic, then they get it over with that much more quickly. You're not the bad guy and they get a bit tougher. This is hard work, after all, and maybe this is a way to let them decide how much harder they want to make it?

Czar
May. 29, 2003, 01:39 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jsalem:
Maybe I should have titled this thread, "Trainers- are you a sadist?"

Hehe..good one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Honestly, and I'm not trying to start something here, but what is this stopping during the lesson business? I've never heard of this. Sure, we'll walk on a loose rein for a couple of minutes for a breather or discuss a problem with the trainer but we never actually have a scheduled break.

For pity's sake...it's only an hour! You guys must have some heavy duty lessons to need to stop for multiple breaks!! If you want a drink of water, bring a bottle, take a sip, and than get back to the lesson.

And I'll probably get flamed for this...but I DO think kids are soft if they have to have multiple breaks during a walk/trot lesson.

Just to clarify...a break to me is an actual break in the lesson - not walking for a few minutes to relax.

Tucked_Away
May. 29, 2003, 01:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Czar:Just to clarify...a break to me is an actual break in the lesson - not walking for a few minutes to relax.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this may be semantics, then. Every place I've ridden has short walk breaks to grab a sip of water, let the horses catch their breath, that sort of thing. Just a few minutes, though -- I'd agree that looong breaks would be a mite excessive. An hour just isn't that long!

But when it's hot out, I do need to stop for a minute or two to grab some water. I just don't do well in the heat...a few weekends ago I was asking people to please catch my horse if I fainted (was also a bit sick, and the combo of that and a sudden hot spell...). I was kidding...mostly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

mcmIV
May. 29, 2003, 01:55 PM
"Its the drama of gulp, gulp, wipe the sweat off the brow after 10 minutes of 2 pt, no stirrups, sitting trot."

Hahahah

If were doing 10 minutes of no stirrups I wouldn't need a break, I would need an ambulance! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Ok, maybe no stirrups in 2-pt....

But I see your point...I can picture little kids dramatizing the effort a little too much. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Czar - I don't think she is teaching walk trot lessons if they're doing so much no stirrups, sitting, 2-point as she point out. I imagine these kids are a little farther along and exerting a bit more effort.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

jackandlily
May. 29, 2003, 02:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sillyponies---formerly known as 1der:
Ballet classes are also not done outdoors under the sun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can still pass out. Maybe it was a different cause, but it is possible. My friend passed out in the halls of our highschool, where it could not have possibly been higher than 70 degrees.

Being a parent herself, I'm *pretty* sure jsalem doesn't have a problem with the parents BEING there and watching. Maybe it's the fact that kids go OVER to their parents for water, which takes a couple minutes tops, and end up needing moral support that could (as was said before) take up to 15 minutes. Obviously jsalem cares about her customers and that they get what they pay for, or else she wouldn't have tried to come up with a time-saving plan.

ponyjumper4
May. 29, 2003, 02:34 PM
Oh i know you can still pass out, and I mentioned that later in my post, but the fact that it's not taught outside could explain why parents aren't waving water bottles in the air. I knew a kid in elementary school that passed out from a heat stroke playing kickball in an old school cafeteria where we had afterschool.

Adult Pony Rider Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sam Iam
May. 29, 2003, 02:54 PM
Let them take a water break. Set it up however you think is best getting bottle from parents, grabbing it off a standard, from you, but let them drink when they need to.

I personally eneded up in the ambulance at a horse show as a kid after a flat class because of heat exhaustion. It wasn't a particularly trying or excessively long hack class either, but between the helmet, hunt coat, long-sleeve shirt, gloves, etc. on a hot summer day my body just said no thanks. I had been gulping sodas all day, but learned a quick lesson that soda doesn't hydrate you, it dehydrates you. Needless to say, the whole incident scared my parents and TRAINER to death. Mom and Dad were always standing by after that incident with the Gatorade and to take my hunt coat after each trip and flat class. Trust me my trainer had no objections after seeing me pass-out in front of her.

Every year, we hear about kids and even professional athletes dying in the August heat during sports practice. I'd hate to see you in court someday trying to defend a kids today are too soft/no-break during lesson policy to a jury. Mom and Dad are looking awfully sympathetic at that point and you end up looking like a monster, and you could find yourself out of business.

I appreciate you not wanting to disrupt the flow of your lesson, but try to figure out a way for them to drink with a minimum of disruption. It just isn't worth the liability in this sue-happy world to deny drink breaks.

Adelita
May. 29, 2003, 03:12 PM
Is it a water break cuz the kids feel thirsty, or is it a break so overprotective coddling mommy or daddy can make the kid drink water? I have never seen so many overbearing parents as I have lately....the kids are spoiled brats and the parents wait on them hand and foot. (I don't like kids much anyway, can you tell?)

Anyway, I think you solution of having water on a jump is great. It's only an hour, and yes while riding in South Tx sun an hour gets ya pretty thirsty and water was necessary, so letting them keep having water is a good thing.

Good luck!

&gt;^.,.^&lt;
~~Linda

To me, a perfectly balanced diet means a cookie in each hand.

shadytrake
May. 29, 2003, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Is it a water break cuz the kids feel thirsty, or is it a break so overprotective coddling mommy or daddy can make the kid drink water? I have never seen so many overbearing parents as I have lately....the kids are spoiled brats and the parents wait on them hand and foot. (I don't like kids much anyway, can you tell?)

Anyway, I think you solution of having water on a jump is great. It's only an hour, and yes while riding in South Tx sun an hour gets ya pretty thirsty and water was necessary, so letting them keep having water is a good thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't like kids too much myself, however, if I were a parent I would want to supervise (not coddle) my children at their extra curricular activities. FLAME SUIT BEING PUT ON NOW http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have seen far too many trainers, coaches, and other parents verbally abusing students (kids and adults) in athletic competitions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
PLEASE NOTE: I am not accusing you of abuse. I think that parents have to be diligent in the supervision of their kids.

I agree that your solution is a smart one. Having the kids come into the center to grab some water and discuss the lesson is very productive.

I think that in order to keep the parents from coddling, you must be up front by telling them what you expect from them and by giving them boundaries. i.e. no coaching during the lesson.

Give us an update on your solution! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

pnyhntrjmpr3
May. 29, 2003, 03:43 PM
well, considering my mom spends *all* of the time we're at the barn (pretty much) with us, cuz theres 4 of us, and our trainer periodically would kill us.. lol... mom stands in the ring, and our drinks are there, with her or with my trainer. If we're riding w/o her, we have 2 have someone on the ground, and they hand us drinks ... i dont think its unacceptable at all, and alot of times these breaks are while we are doing our courses one at a time, and its not our turn. But then again, moms been riding with my trainer since she was like 3 or 4, so we're all like one big family, and mom doesnt get in the way, but helps out http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CraZ4Horses
May. 29, 2003, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jsalem:
.

I just think its rude to the teacher and ridiculous in terms of health. I never, never took a drink to the ring with me when I rode. I hydrated before and after the lesson. Of course, July is possibly another matter, but really!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe...try going an hour without water in the mid-summer 105* California temperatures... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

bitsy
May. 29, 2003, 04:04 PM
JS - sounds as though you really want more for some of these kids than they do. Not every kid is going to want to become that "star", nor have that ability. Some just want to have fun and enjoy it without the pressure. If that's the case what's wrong with it ?? Maybe you should hire someone to teach these children until they are ready to move on or wish to move on if it is not your thing.

As for the water breaks - there was just a story on this the other nite on the news. And this is actually when most have a trouble until they get use to the change from winter to summer. It's actually easier when they have been acclimated. I also think you should be thinking about the horses/ponies - it's hard for them to work for an hour w/ no break to catch their breath too !! At our barn we all take a water bottle to the ring and our trainer does not mind handing it to us either. I don't think you can compare this to gymnastics or ballet since both are done in climate controlled environments. Heat stroke is nothing to play around with and people react differently. Let them have their water.

Jsalem
May. 29, 2003, 04:38 PM
Update:
I tried my plan today. Much better. I explained to the parents ahead of time- that I wanted the kids to stay focused on the lesson, but that I didn't mind them having water during our breaks. They were very understanding and it worked great.

But here's a thought after all of the cautionary words about dehydration. How come kids get to sip water several times throughout the hour and ponies just get to walk- no water? Hmmmmm.

Still think kids are too soft- sorry.

What bitsy says is probably true. I have a hard time with "casual" or "just for fun" riders. To me, it is fun to work really hard and get it right. I love beginners, but I like them motivated to do it right. I like to see them make progress and learn about horsemanship. I'm frustrated by the kid who dosen't care about grooming and just wants to jump "because its fun."

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

pgm
May. 29, 2003, 05:03 PM
jsalem-

have just come into this postijng - very interesting topic. I teach all levels and there is a point at which they stop needing things in their lessons. Younger, less serious riders always come the least prepared, both physically and mentally. More experienced riders should be expected to come ready to go.

But there is a process to building their strength and you can only raise the bar a bit at a time. I always start the bar fairly high though so that they understand that I expect them to take it seriously. A little "George Morris" never hurts at the start - boots and britches, Hats and Hair nets, gloves, belts, clean horse and tack, spurs and crop handy, no loose blousy shirts - polos are preferred - you know the drill. That, frankly, is quite enough for anyone to deal with who isn't familiar with "the look." (And it makes for some good natured fun whenthey forget something!)

Later, you move them up to -"OK girls, get away from the water trough and lets get back to work...Okay - everyone cross their irons..." and they get the picture.

Tucked_Away
May. 29, 2003, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jsalem:
Update:

How come kids get to sip water several times throughout the hour and ponies just get to walk- no water? Hmmmmm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Synchronicity -- I was thinking about this today during my ride. I used to be at a barn where we had a schoolie that didn't sweat, and I remember them being careful with him. And we usually have buckets out at the shows. But other than that?

If anyone has any explanations (is this a bad thing? or why horses don't need water?), I'd love to hear 'em. I know my horse usually gets a drink when I turn him back out after a ride, but not always, and even when he does, it never seems urgent (and he won't drink from the hose), whereas I'm draining my water bottle.

shadytrake
May. 29, 2003, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But here's a thought after all of the cautionary words about dehydration. How come kids get to sip water several times throughout the hour and ponies just get to walk- no water? Hmmmmm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ponies don't sue, Parents do. Besides, once the kid realizes they are thirsty, oftentimes they are already dehydrated. If you want them to concentrate and to perform at their best abilities, then you should insist on a water/gatorade break (are 2 minutes really going to kill your stride? C'mon, you are a professional and an adult and I am sure your concentration skills are more focused)

You may think they don't need the water, but one ER visit will change your mind.

My best friend has a private violin/viola studio of 65 students and has a waiting list of 25-30 others. In order to weed out the "just for fun students," I published a studio policy brochure for her which lays out the requirements to remain in her studio. By the way, that was 4 years ago and she has had to let some students go. Some parents were relieved that she gave them a way out, other parents were not thrilled, and some were downright nasty. However, her studio is thriving and 95% of her students go to All-West, many go to All-State, and at least 3 play in C-rated professional orchestras currently.

If you want to weed out your students and focus on the ones who are serious, then lay it out on paper and make the parents sign the form stating that they have read and understand your policies. If they question you, your response is "I am a professional trainer and my students reflect my teaching ability. If that student is not focused and is not progressing, it reflects poorly on me."

Sorry the post is long, but I thought this story was a good parallel to your situation.

RugBug
May. 29, 2003, 06:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Czar:

Honestly, and I'm not trying to start something here, but what is this stopping during the lesson business? I've never heard of this. Sure, we'll walk on a loose rein for a couple of minutes for a breather or discuss a problem with the trainer but we never actually have a scheduled break.

For pity's sake...it's only an hour! You guys must have some heavy duty lessons to need to stop for multiple breaks!! If you want a drink of water, bring a bottle, take a sip, and than get back to the lesson.

And I'll probably get flamed for this...but I DO think kids are soft if they have to have multiple breaks during a walk/trot lesson.

Just to clarify...a break to me is an actual break in the lesson - not walking for a few minutes to relax.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe it is your definition of "break" that is a problem. If you read my first post, I said that I never take a "break" (your definition) in my lessons...just a 'give the horse a breather" type of break.

As for the previous stuff about favors, etc. I call most of that respect and give plenty of it to my trainer...and expect that she gives it to me as well. I am not late for my lessons, I don't keep her waiting, I am not rude and I don't complain. But she still isn't doing me a favour.

And, gasp, I think kids today are soft as well.

JSalem: I asked the other day to jump with no stirrups. I love doing the "work." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Twinkletozzz
May. 29, 2003, 06:21 PM
No, you're not being too strict. How long could this lesson possibly be? 30 minutes to an hour? Jeez, it's 75 degrees not 95 degrees. At our barn, lesson time is lesson time and drinking happens before and after. And, parents should be seen and not heard. They need to toughen up a bit. If they can't school in Atlanta at 75 degrees without caving, what may I ask are they going to do in show clothes in July?

GatoGordo
May. 29, 2003, 06:37 PM
Re: the horses. A friend of mine has an event horse with anhydrosis whom I have been asked to exercise on occasion. Whenever I ride this horse in warm (not just hot) weather, he gets hosed off all over right before the saddle is put on -- shocking, I know, but it never slips -- and immediately after the ride he is stripped of his tack and hosed off repeatedly. The horse is also walked over to the wash rack during rides sometimes and hosed off again (I love his temperament, loves the water). When I, as the resident trained barn urchin, stand out there doling out water during my friends' jump lessons, I also have a bucket and sponge to wet down the horses. Even as fit eventers, all parties appreciate it. Rehydration happens when another pair is jumping the course or the trainer is setting up the next part of an exercise.

Life is short; make fun of it.
Founding Member, Bird Nerd Clique; Eventing Yahoo In Training

ponyjumper102
May. 29, 2003, 06:53 PM
I think it's ridiculous that you guys think a water break is inappropriate during a lesson! I have had to go to the hospital after riding from dehydration! I drank before I rode, and after I rode. But not while I rode. And I landed myself in the hospital. It is a serious matter and just because it doesn't happen to fit into the lesson time is no excuse. I am very surprised to see people so against it. It's not a matter of toughening up. You can't help it if your body needs water. That's just how it is.

Athletes that compete in other sports are almost forced to drink during workouts to keep their energy up. Why should it be any different with riding?

Drinking, and nosey parents are two different things however. It is the trainers job to instruct us, not our parents. That what they are paid to do. But having your mom hand you a water bottle a couple times isn't gunna hurt anything.

"It takes one to ride, but two to win."

"There is fate, but it only takes you so far. Because once you're there it's up to you to make it happen"

farfel
May. 29, 2003, 06:53 PM
I believe it was research connected to the Atlanta Olympics that helped debunk the myth that hot horses shouldn't be allowed to drink. Pre-workout soaks, misting, and periodic gulps of water during a workout were all recommended to help avoid dehydration in the horse during hot weather.

During my lesson last night, my instructor and I were talking about bringing a bucket of water to the ring next time - not that it's particularly hot here right now, but it is kinda humid...and besides, the Uber Lease Horse deserves it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ForaSmallFee11
May. 29, 2003, 06:54 PM
Even when i was a beginner i never got a break and if you have a health problem then yes but come on people i pay for an hour of my trainers advice and i try to use very minute of it i drinl before and after i shouldnt pay to stop and drink the only break i get is when jumps are being set if they arent already set.really i do remember trying to post and what not and thats when i took half hour lessons so i wouldnt get dehydrated seriously thats kind of rediculous.if you say you fell like your gonna faint then fine or say something that you dont feel good but dont wait until you do faint.

*A horse can never have too many polos*

*A girl can never have too many shoes*
www.terryallenfarms.com (http://www.terryallenfarms.com)

MistyBlue
May. 29, 2003, 07:20 PM
I agree with some of the others on here. Czar, Jsalem, etc.
I also agree that making sure young ones don't become dehydrated to the point of hospitalization is very important too.
But in all seriousness...this is an hour lesson in 75 degree weather. It's not an endurance ride. It's not a cross country across the salt flats. It's not a show in full turnout in August. And it's great that mom and dad attend lessons with the children and watch. But the student should be walking the horse on a loose rein for both of them to rest and stretch and if they're chatting, they should be chatting with the trainer, not the parents. Drinking water is fine, and for those with health issues: more water. But a normal healthy child isn't going to pass out after 60 minutes of lessons with brief periods of no stirrup work with a few sips of water and not talking to mom. Parents today need to help their kids cowboy up a bit and heed rules. And not be overly-involved. For wee ones, fine. For bigger kids - whatever happened to kids being dropped off at the barn for lessons?

Nitro's Mommy
May. 29, 2003, 07:31 PM
Depends on the helmet too.....I threw away my velvet show hat cause I had a concussion with it--I would get SOOOO hot in that thing, no matter indoors or out.

I bought a purple Troxel schooling helmet and I'm in heaven--my head can breathe! It makes a world of difference in my heat tolerance!

I got through 3 water bottles today (needed 4) from working 7:30 am to 4 pm at the barn---oh wait had many gulps from the hose--its hard work around horses. Since tehre are only 3 of us and 20 horses (campers come on Monday) while horses aren't being ridden they are in the tie stalls (the stalls are only used for feeding--these horses have HUGE pastures to roam in from 4:30 pm to 7:30 am) and we give them water breaks, take them to the water tank--some drink, some won't.

A couple of the ones taht get sweaty even at a walk (like "Big Momma" the out of shape mare) wants that drink right when we get off the trail, and I have no problem with giving her one right there).

It is not even June yet, and at 4 pm today (late afternoon) it was 91 degrees here, and it is always humid.

When I was still in high school, in summer jumping lessons water bottles were all over the arena, on top of the fence. But the way lessons were run, we did flat work then we did jumping courses one at a time, so when you were watching the others jump you drank your water then. Built in water break, and relax time. And time to watch others and learn.

We did have parents on the bleachers watching or leaning on the fence, and if there kid was getting a drink they might encourage them or give their horse pats (this was a very family oriented barn and people were close to each other and the whole enviroment was relaxed) but nothing distracting.

"Little Big Little Big we shall soon see" --How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days

Beethoven
May. 29, 2003, 07:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sillyponies---formerly known as 1der:
Ballet classes are also not done outdoors under the sun. I almost blacked out from the heat once, it was very scary. No one was around either. I had just gotten my pony back to the barn and had her in her stall and I could barely see to the end of the barn (which was only a couple of yards) and couldn't walk straight to the end of it and got very dizzy. I made it to the washrack and turned on a hose and put it all over my face then layed down in the shade for a few minutes to recooperate. You can get heat strokes even indoors, but the risk is greater outside and I don't blame the parents for being overly concerned because you can die from it and once you do have a heat stroke, you are more likely to have one again.

I just didn't really see how the parents were interfering in this instance. You allowed the kids a break, they went and got water. The solution you mentioned earlier should solve the problem.

Adult Pony Rider Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OMG people, Jsalem was saying that she didn;t like the parents talking to the child during their water breaks. Not that she doesn't want them to have water.

As a rider, I find it irritating when the other people in the lesson stop on the rail and get water and have a whole convo with their parents. To me you should get your water and keep walking!! The break is not just for you, but for your horse. ALso, they are taking up perfectly good riding space and also it distracts me.

I totally agree with Jsalem and the fact of the matter is that she has a solution so this whole thread should be over and done with!!!!

~Jenna & Beethoven~
Proud Member of the Thoroughbred Clique & the Children's Jumpers Clique & the GA Clique & TS Clique "To ride or not to ride? What a stupid question!"

Beethoven
May. 29, 2003, 07:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shadytrake:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Is it a water break cuz the kids feel thirsty, or is it a break so overprotective coddling mommy or daddy can make the kid drink water? I have never seen so many overbearing parents as I have lately....the kids are spoiled brats and the parents wait on them hand and foot. (I don't like kids much anyway, can you tell?)

Anyway, I think you solution of having water on a jump is great. It's only an hour, and yes while riding in South Tx sun an hour gets ya pretty thirsty and water was necessary, so letting them keep having water is a good thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't like kids too much myself, however, if I were a parent I would want to supervise (not coddle) my children at their extra curricular activities. FLAME SUIT BEING PUT ON NOW http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have seen far too many trainers, coaches, and other parents verbally abusing students (kids and adults) in athletic competitions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
PLEASE NOTE: I am not accusing you of abuse. I think that parents have to be diligent in the supervision of their kids.

I agree that your solution is a smart one. Having the kids come into the center to grab some water and discuss the lesson is very productive.

I think that in order to keep the parents from coddling, you must be up front by telling them what you expect from them and by giving them boundaries. i.e. no coaching during the lesson.

Give us an update on your solution! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jsalem doesn't abuse in any sense of the word. I know I rode with her for 3 years. She in fact is a great trainer, one of the best in my opioion(sp?). SHe knows what she is doing and knows when to push you. She only pushes to make you a better rider and if you can't take that and need coddling from your mom that you have no business riding in the first place.

~Jenna & Beethoven~
Proud Member of the Thoroughbred Clique & the Children's Jumpers Clique & the GA Clique & TS Clique "To ride or not to ride? What a stupid question!"

Millpond Showtime
May. 29, 2003, 07:48 PM
jsalem= we are dying when we have to drop are stirrups!! haha i agree with beethoven aka jenna!!

~KELLI~
*HIGH FIVE*
*MILLPOND SHOWTIME*

ponyjumper4
May. 29, 2003, 07:52 PM
Beethoven, none of us are accusing her of being abusive or saying she's a bad trainer. She was complaining of the parents coddling their children by giving them water. She never said it was the talking to them, and from her post it only seemed like they talked to them during the breaks when they came and got the water and not any other time, therefore not interfering with the lesson, which was her complaint.

Adult Pony Rider Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Millpond Showtime
May. 29, 2003, 07:52 PM
To add to my above message....jenna is right..i have also been riding with janet for about 2 1/2 years (i think)!
~kelli~

Beethoven
May. 29, 2003, 07:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ponyjumper102:
I think it's ridiculous that you guys think a water break is inappropriate during a lesson! I have had to go to the hospital after riding from dehydration! I drank before I rode, and after I rode. But not while I rode. And I landed myself in the hospital. It is a serious matter and just because it doesn't happen to fit into the lesson time is no excuse. I am very surprised to see people so against it. It's not a matter of toughening up. You can't help it if your body needs water. That's just how it is.

Athletes that compete in other sports are almost forced to drink during workouts to keep their energy up. Why should it be any different with riding?

Drinking, and nosey parents are two different things however. It is the trainers job to instruct us, not our parents. That what they are paid to do. But having your mom hand you a water bottle a couple times isn't gunna hurt anything.

"It takes one to ride, but two to win."

"There is fate, but it only takes you so far. Because once you're there it's up to you to make it happen"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW who hasn't been reading the posts??? Not what people are saying at all!

~Jenna & Beethoven~
Proud Member of the Thoroughbred Clique & the Children's Jumpers Clique & the GA Clique & TS Clique "To ride or not to ride? What a stupid question!"

Tucked_Away
May. 29, 2003, 07:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beethoven:
She only pushes to make you a better rider and if you can't take that and need coddling from your mom that you have no business riding in the first place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are lots of levels of desire, Jenna. Not everyone wants to go to the Olympics. Not everyone wants to show at all. Not everyone cares about having that position. Not everyone has the same tolerance for the same kinds of work.

Now, if a given student doesn't fit in with a given trainer's philosophy, then maybe they oughtn't ride with that trainer -- or vice versa! But to say they have no business riding in the first place seems a bit harsh.

I know I'm still seeing lots of good stuff in this thread, including stuff that's a bit spun off from the original question...I'd be happy to see it go long as people have things to say! Thanks for starting it, Jsalem.

Beethoven
May. 29, 2003, 08:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tucked_Away:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beethoven:
She only pushes to make you a better rider and if you can't take that and need coddling from your mom that you have no business riding in the first place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are lots of levels of desire, Jenna. Not everyone wants to go to the Olympics. Not everyone wants to show at all. Not everyone cares about having that position. Not everyone has the same tolerance for the same kinds of work.

Now, if a given student doesn't fit in with a given trainer's philosophy, then maybe they oughtn't ride with that trainer -- or vice versa! But to say they have no business riding in the first place seems a bit harsh.

I know I'm still seeing lots of good stuff in this thread, including stuff that's a bit spun off from the original question...I'd be happy to see it go long as people have things to say! Thanks for starting it, Jsalem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is true, but the type of barn that jsalem runs is that of a show barn. So, children are not there to mess around, but to work and be successful at shows. So, believe me I understand what you are saying, but you should expect certain things if you are at a barn like that.

I don't want it to seem like its all work cause its not!! We had plenty of fun!! Trail rides, rides out in the fields where we raced our horses, but when you are in a lesson you are there to work, so thats what you should do.

~Jenna & Beethoven~
Proud Member of the Thoroughbred Clique & the Children's Jumpers Clique & the GA Clique & TS Clique "To ride or not to ride? What a stupid question!"

Beethoven
May. 29, 2003, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sillyponies---formerly known as 1der:
Beethoven, none of us are accusing her of being abusive or saying she's a bad trainer. She was complaining of the parents coddling their children by giving them water. She never said it was the talking to them, and from her post it only seemed like they talked to them during the breaks when they came and got the water and not any other time, therefore not interfering with the lesson, which was her complaint.

Adult Pony Rider Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, I think that she was trying to get across the point that the random breaks and the parents chatting with the kids during the breaks disrupted the flow of the lesson.

~Jenna & Beethoven~
Proud Member of the Thoroughbred Clique & the Children's Jumpers Clique & the GA Clique & TS Clique "To ride or not to ride? What a stupid question!"

magellan
May. 29, 2003, 08:03 PM
This is an interesting topic, and going away from the dehydration drama for a minute, I'd like to comment on something you said earlier- that it is hard teaching kids who don't have that drive or passion to work hard. I am only 15 but am teaching lessons and observe my trainer teaching lessons also, and this irritates me to no end. Yes, some people just want to ride for fun. That is fine with me, not everyone has to go to the Olympics.
BUT unlike other sports, when you ride, you are responsible for the life of another organism. It is unfair to them to only do the fun stuff like jumping without learning the basics.
Don't get the idea that I am one of those people who thinks you can't ever discipline a horse or do something that will upset them, I believe there is a time and place for punishment. However that punishment should not come about because the rider is too lazy to try. Not everyone has to jump 4 foot but I think you owe it to the horse to try your best everytime you ride. It is supposed to be fun but it is not all fun, you have to work a little at it too. I hate when parents want you to make their kid an A circuit winner, but don't upset them by asking them to ride more them once a week and work more on flatwork. But that's another thing entirely...maybe I'll start a new thread...
(Wow that is the longest thing I have ever posted!)

It's a sad day in American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park.

Millpond Showtime
May. 29, 2003, 08:05 PM
yeah...we had a lot of fun!!! jenna=chelsea and her mary kate and ashley poster? she is so wierd! haha

Beethoven
May. 29, 2003, 08:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Millpond Showtime:
yeah...we had a lot of fun!!! jenna=chelsea and her mary kate and ashley poster? she is so wierd! haha<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, yea that was a bit strange!! It wasn't just the poster it was the whole obsession!

~Jenna & Beethoven~
Proud Member of the Thoroughbred Clique & the Children's Jumpers Clique & the GA Clique & TS Clique "To ride or not to ride? What a stupid question!"

ponyjumper102
May. 29, 2003, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jsalem:

I just think its rude to the teacher and ridiculous in terms of health. I never, never took a drink to the ring with me when I rode. I hydrated before and after the lesson. Of course, July is possibly another matter, but really!

I just think this is very subtle interference with my lesson. I think "breaks" should be used for stretching, resting and reflecting- not getting a "fix" from mommy!

Okay, I'm done.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was mainly refering to that statement. It seems to me like she is saying the kids don't need the water and they should suck it up and be big kids.

"It takes one to ride, but two to win."

"There is fate, but it only takes you so far. Because once you're there it's up to you to make it happen"

Millpond Showtime
May. 29, 2003, 08:12 PM
yeah...she would always inform me if they had a new video come out! and one day she wanted to come to my house and watch all of them!(from like full house to now)
~kelli~
*HIGH FIVE*
*MILLPOND SHOWTIME*

Beethoven
May. 29, 2003, 08:16 PM
kelli-yea chelsea was a little insane!

ponyjumper- maybe it sounded that way but that wasn't what she meant, which she clarifies in other posts!

~Jenna & Beethoven~
Proud Member of the Thoroughbred Clique & the Children's Jumpers Clique & the GA Clique & TS Clique "To ride or not to ride? What a stupid question!"

mickey
May. 29, 2003, 08:47 PM
jsalem, czar etc, I am difinitely with you as an instructor, and BELIEVE me, the issue is not the #%^ water! It is that the kids are running to their parents like they are on their last legs and busting their butts after a minimum effort put forth, and the parents dumping praise on them for their half @#$ effort!!! I know this makes me sound like the bitter b#*ch instructor and I am not, I have plenty of kids that work hard (and we are in PA, so my kids DON'T take water breaks, though it would be allowed if necessary and is always available at shows when wearing lots of clothes and nervous!!) Anyway, the point is that the focus is taken off the instructor and shifted back to the parent in the one situation where the parent is NOT the boss. Boss of child? yes always of course. Boss of child on horse? No I am sorry, Believe me I have their safety and welfare first and foremost in my mind, and if anything I am too cautious with their well-being, so if the parents do not trust my judgement of their childs care WHILE MOUNTED, they do need to go somewhere else. I will cut beginner lessons short if the 7 year old kid's legs are too tired, but will make that same child walk in 2 pt a year later while their horse catches it's breath if they sit on it like a sack of potatoes during a walk break. Of course it is all about what the students are mentally and physically capable of, and a good intructor can tell the difference between a kid struggling to do as much as they can and a kid whining and not performing to potential, when often the parent only sees little Janie with a frown on her face so she must need her mommy!
It is very hard to teach a kid with no work ethic that you resist slaughtering for it. So you try to push them with your kindest words, but by the same token can not praise them for a job well done when they are not doing the job well and need to understand that; because it is the horse that is suffering for their lack of effort.

I have had a ONE parent tell me I am better with horses than people and need to give her child more praise; when her child makes no effort and is riding the 4 yr old :0 horse they mistakenly bought that I am having to try to make ready for said lazy child. The horse is the one suffering, but I am nice to the child as I try to make her understand that her faults are negatively effecting "her" YOUNG horse. Sorry for the tirad, but this is the current child coddling situation I am in!

By the same token, I have a kid that is so uncoordinated I don't know how she walks across the ground, she doesn't ride a bike, roller-skate etc, but she wants to ride, busts her butt, has fallen off once, and got up so fast with no tears that I had to race her to the mounting block to put her back on! She LOVES it and works so hard that even though she doesn't accel I know she will be the best rider SHE can possibly be! Olympics...not so much, but she's a great kid. And when she fell off (of a geriatric beginner horse, I think she threw herself to the ground), her mom laughed and didn't set foot in the ring. Not cruel, just recognized that there was not a problem and her kid was learning from it, and was PROUD of her child for wanting to get right back on. Well, if anyone read this whole thing, I think the point is that kids may need a drink but don't need to be drama queens running to mommy in the middle of a lesson!

HSM
May. 29, 2003, 09:31 PM
Nowhere in her post did I see jsalem claiming that the parents interfered in any way other than giving their kid a drink and saying something along the lines of "Good job Sally!".

Therfore, I don't get what the beef is. How is this interfering? And how is this "high drama"?

Of course it would be innappropriate for a parent to be trying to take over the lesson, or interrupting over and over. (I have seen PLENTY of lessons where some unrelated person walks into the ring to ask the trainer a question or 2 or 5 during MY kid's lesson - that really irks me.) But I did not hear this to be the case.

If the trainer feels that "break time is over", then just say that for crying out loud.

I agree with those who pointed out that not every person/kid taking lessons aspires to great things - a lot of them just like horses. Different kind of lesson here. Maybe teaching these kids is not for everyone.

One or more of the posters made an excellent point that it is the parents' responsibility to supervise their child's time with other adults - hear hear to that!

I know that I hung around my daughter's lessons for a long LONG time until (a) I learned something about the sport, and (b) I felt comfortable that she was "safe." And yes, I have done the same exact thing with my son's music lessons - and I have *gasp* asked his music teacher a question or two during the lesson. Luckily he never kicked me out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

One last rant before I go to bed: I am so darned tired of hearing about how "soft" and otherwise inadequate today's kids are. *sigh* Talk about an unfair generalization......

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

mickey
May. 29, 2003, 10:18 PM
Considering that jsalem's original topic for this post was parents interfering with lessons, I think that is the point of the post, more than soft kids, however, the two usually go hand in hand. I think too that sometimes instructors have a hard time with "soft" kids because the instructors may have worked very hard as kids to get where they are and wanted it more than anything because of the horses, so when Janie gets out of the car; hops on the horse, rides half @$$ed, then gets in the car and leaves, it is hard to understand when most of us live and breath the horses to the neglect of anything else such as a social life and clean clothes. Should these kids or their parents live like this or plan to, of course not, they should just appreciate the effort for the hour they are riding, and put forth the effort required to be FAIR to the horse (whether lesson horse or privately owned). This effort should also satisfy the instructor if that is all that is expected from the student, as it will never be as much effort as the instructor/trainer puts forth. When you throw the horse into the equation it becomes very different from most other children's activites. YOur child doesn't hurt the piano if it plays it badly, but the horses are affected if the child rides badly. In many cases that is the horse's job and they are very tolerent of the mistakes, but it IS NOT TRULY an individual sport, you gotta' be ridin' something, and when the bad ride is affecting the horse, it is the instructor's job to try to improve on that for the horse and the rider.

Moo
May. 30, 2003, 02:03 AM
I don't think it's a big deal, and honestly, it's more about a child-parent bonding thing than a dehydration thing.
I LOVED going over to my mom the few times she was around and her handing me some water. It really made me feel supported and loved.
Call me crazy, but I would be happy the parents are there, supporting, and doting on their kids. It's that kinda stuff that makes riding even better.
Let's not get excessive with it, but you gotta understand the psychology of parent and child, that's all.

"We came, we rode, we conquered."
*Member of the TB Clique, Young Trainers clique and the Disgruntled College Student Clique.*

dressager
May. 30, 2003, 03:02 AM
I think I'd last at this barn about 20 minutes into my first lesson.

Thank goodness my trainer doesn't mind my frequent water stops and encourages it at times, especially if I am getting fatigued. In this weather it's a nice break for the horse as well.

I am not a beginner nor am I out of shape, but I do get horrible heat headaches which are easily prevented by drinking LOTS of water BEFORE and DURING my ride. Hydration is ESSENTIAL, and if you're thirsty, you're dehydrated.

I just can't believe you have a problem with someone stopping to get water (I get the chatting with parents thing)- people DO get thirsty and NEED water, especially as summer is nearing and the temps are going UP!

... but it really doesn't matter if they are dying of thirst or not- I take three breaks or so (depending on the work)- which consist of a minute to cool off and drink some water.

Just be glad the parents WANT to be involved! Too many parents, IMHO, drop their kids and aren't involved.

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
We start believing now that we can be who we are

Czar
May. 30, 2003, 06:49 AM
jsalem never once said that she didn't want the kids to be able to have a drink during their lesson. This is not the issue here...the issue is with the kids stopping the lesson to have a drink and chat with mommy or daddy. You can still rehydrate without stopping the lesson. It doesn't need to be an actual break - have a drink while someone else is doing their course or during the walking breaks between flat exercises but it is absolutely uncalled for the students to be going over to the side of ring, standing there with their parent while getting a drink and having a chat.

I personally find a break unneccessary during my lessons which usually run for about an hour but I would certainly not deny someone a drink if they needed it and neither is jsalem.

Jsalem
May. 30, 2003, 07:23 AM
You guys are so funny. I am not saying that riders shouldn't drink to prevent dehydration. A couple of the trainer types here have touched on my frustration, though.

It takes so much energy, passion and creativity to be a teacher. The really hard thing to accept is when you, the teacher, are willing to work harder than the student. You are really getting into it, looking for that breakthrough when the student will finally understand, and the student if feeling the need to go to mommy for encouragement. "Oh, honey, hang in there, Janet is really tough today." No, Janet is ready for the child to finally put her heels down!

And Moo, with all due respect, I don't think lesson time is about parent-child bonding. Sharing the love of horses can be a wonderful thing to share with your child, but let them go so that they can forge a bond with their equine partner with the help of a caring, motivated teacher. The rewards are great!

I guess I feel like the mommy break was taking the attention off of the work and off of the horse and turning the focus onto the discomfort of the rider.

Having said all this, I was much happier handing the kids their water yesterday. I felt like I was having a little comraderie with them. When mommy was attending to them I felt like the bad guy.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

mcmIV
May. 30, 2003, 07:31 AM
Jsalem - I still think you have a strict outlook on what constitutes "soft"... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But, you sound like a really great teacher, and your post is very clear and well written - I totally understand where you're coming from.

Glad your policy change has worked out! I wish you and your students the best. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

shadytrake
May. 30, 2003, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Jsalem doesn't abuse in any sense of the word. I know I rode with her for 3 years. She in fact is a great trainer, one of the best in my opioion(sp?). SHe knows what she is doing and knows when to push you. She only pushes to make you a better rider and if you can't take that and need coddling from your mom that you have no business riding in the first place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beethoven,

If you would read my post again, you will note that I did not accuse Janet of abuse. I merely suggested that if I were a parent, I would definitely supervise my child's extra curricular activities.

Additionally, I agree with her solution.

Finally, I think that Janet has posted the root of her frustration...<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It takes so much energy, passion and creativity to be a teacher. The really hard thing to accept is when you, the teacher, are willing to work harder than the student. You are really getting into it, looking for that breakthrough when the student will finally understand, and the student if feeling the need to go to mommy for encouragement. "Oh, honey, hang in there, Janet is really tough today." No, Janet is ready for the child to finally put her heels down!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is totally inappropriate for that parent to criticize Janet in the child's presence. It shows a lack of respect for the trainer to whom she is paying good money to train her child. If the parent has an issue with Janet, she should take it up with Janet in private. IMHO, words of encouragement should support your trainer.

This is all the more reason to lay out your teaching policies on paper so you can "weed out" the students who are not living up to your expectations. They might be happier with a trainer who only aspires to Schooling Shows. PLEASE NOTE: I AM NOT CRITICIZING SCHOOLING SHOW TRAINERS! I am just making a point that not all trainers DESIRE to train at the A Rated Shows.

Now that this issue has been beaten into the ground, fairwell.

Janet, good luck! It takes a lot of perseverance to be a teacher. To quote a line often used in the Music World "There are a lot of great performers, but very few great teachers." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anne FS
Jun. 3, 2003, 01:03 PM
OMG, I just found this thread. jsalem, I'm with you. Water breaks every 15 minutes - that's nonsense. And the kid with the backpack so she can suck down water constantly?! I can't believe it. UNLESS that child has a medical problem, that is just ridiculous. Water bottles have become the pacifiers of modern life. From children to adults, we cannot walk around anymore without a bottle to suck on.

Anne FS
Jun. 3, 2003, 02:19 PM
It amazes me that people are posting that they cannot go ONE hour without drinking. Bizarro-world.

"Potential Drawbacks: Water Intoxication

Dr. Heinz Valtin (Dartmouth Medical School) points out that even plain water may be harmful. It can cause 'water intoxication,' which can lead to mental confusion, seizures, and even death. Water intoxication occurs when the kidneys' excretion of water (urine) cannot keep pace with the fluid intake. Such conditions are being reported with increasing frequency in endurance athletes, military recruits, persons partaking in recreational drugs that cause extreme thirst, and in patients."

Here's more information:


http://www.hhp.ufl.edu/keepingfit/ARTICLE/toomuchwater.htm


http://www.pihealth.com/water.htm

http://www.fruit-eze.com/education/laxative/overhydration.html

AAJumper
Jun. 3, 2003, 02:32 PM
I can understand Jsalem's frustrations, and I think that having the water bottles inside the ring sounds like a good idea. It would be especially annoying to have to students constantly stopping during the lesson to get a water break, but I think one hour can be a little long to go without a drink, depending on the conditions. I know that I always bring my water bottle with me into the ring, and I almost always need to take a drink after about a half hour of flat work (we usually take a short water/relaxation break after the flat, but before jumping). But then again, I'm in So.CA, and it can be dry here, very dry, and even at 75 degrees your throat can get very parched. On a particularily dry day, when we might have some dry winds, I have had to stop after 10-15 minutes to get a drink because I cannot continue (this is very very rare but it has happened). And I am by no means a wimp and I don't complain ever! Sometimes the heat and dryness is just intolerable and all I can focus on is how dry my mouth and throat are...not the best frame of mind when trying to accomplish something.

Personally, I cannot fathom going for an hour straight without any water at all! To me, that is bizarro-world! Or something from the land of human camels! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ForaSmallFee11
Jun. 3, 2003, 03:00 PM
I say you all are getting into the water situation and not the main topic of being interrupted to talk to mommy or get a drink being interrupted while trying to focus on the kids position and what not is annoying. ever try writing a paper and your thinking what should i put in it that will help and all you want to do is think and someone comes over and says hey shana shana shana shana are you listening and your thinking leave me alone im thinking, well thats all jsalem is doing she is focussing on the kid.

*A horse can never have too many polos*

*A girl can never have too many shoes*
www.terryallenfarms.com (http://www.terryallenfarms.com)

AnnabelleQF
Jun. 3, 2003, 05:15 PM
You have to drink A LOT*** of water to get water intoxication i think. Like way more than one bottle...I don't know i read about it in a medical book (and it was on ER once!!lol)

LMH
Jun. 3, 2003, 06:32 PM
WOW jsalem--you are unofficially famous! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Five pages and counting on the new controversial topic...water bottles. Could this actually give approved helmets and TS breeches a run for the money or what http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Just for the record, jsalem and I come from the same old school---there was no bottles or water when I grew up either http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Where is sunny with a good sunny opinion when we need one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"A horse gallops with its lungs, preseveres with its heart, and wins with its character." - Tesio

[This message was edited by LMH on Jun. 03, 2003 at 09:07 PM.]

Jsalem
Jun. 3, 2003, 06:57 PM
I'm even a "cross-over" hit. I'm now in the Off Course forum.

Like I said earlier- They didn't have water bottles when we were kids. Heck, they didn't even have water when we were kids.

We're Atlanta girls. We hydrated with Coca Cola. After the lesson

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

~SC~
Jun. 3, 2003, 11:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:

Where is sunny with a good sunny opinion when we need one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha!! Sunny was always really fair about water breaks, but that's b/c she knew that she worked us hard and we REALLY needed them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif We either stuck out water bottles on a jump or she would hold them on her cart. Heck, I can even remember a few lessons when she walked around and handed us our water!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~Sarah~


~Disgruntled College Students Clique~Georgia Clique~Junior Clique (Can I please still be a member?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )~ Buckle Bunnies http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Janet
Jun. 4, 2003, 12:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just for the record, jsalem and I come from the same old school---there was no bottles or water whenI grew up either <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When I grew up we didn't have water bottles while riding either. And I would collapse with heat stroke a couple of times each summer.

Much prefer "NOW" to "THEN" in that respect.

But I agree that isn't the real issue here.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Anne FS
Jun. 4, 2003, 09:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ForaSmallFee11:
I say you all are getting into the water situation and not the main topic of being interrupted to talk to mommy or get a drink
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't want to get off the topic. My point was agreeing with you & jsalem that the multi breaks are too much & are distracting and annoying; that there's a huge difference in taking a drink of water once or twice during a lesson in HOT weather and running to mommie every 10-15 minutes to chat while mommie ministers to precious. Yuk.

I still think the bottles are pacifiers for both kids & adults. We live in a crazy, stressed-out world and we want our ba-bas to cling to, consciously or not.

{although for stressful lives, how about being a serf in the middle ages????}

Madison
Jun. 4, 2003, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jsalem:
We're Atlanta girls. We hydrated with Coca Cola. _After the lesson_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, jsalem, some of us Atlanta girls still do that! I sit a water bottle on top of a jump in the ring during the summers for when it is someone else's turn to jump (and at age 30 would be a little annoyed if my mother was showing up interrupting my lesson http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), but that Coke after the lesson or at the shows post-division is a very important part of the routine!

AAJumper
Jun. 4, 2003, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madison:
but that Coke after the lesson or at the shows post-division is a very important part of the routine!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, speaking of shows, I am SO grateful that all of the shows I go to have a giant water bottle with cups at the ingate. On a warm day, I gulp multiple cups of water after a jumper round on my hot TB mare. And that is only after one round! And it's usually my trainer who is giving me the water (unless a friend is standing nearby) and we talk about the round while I drink. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rileyt
Jun. 4, 2003, 10:06 AM
well... when I grew up... we didn't even have WATER!! Let alone water breaks! We were expected to get our daily hydration from foraging for fruits and vegetables... a la Land of the Lost.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

jsalem... I'm so with you. And LMH. I suggest we start punishing the little munchkins for wanting water breaks. You want water??? There is a new rule: No sips of water unless you're prepared to chug an entire gallon and immediately go back to sitting trot without stirrups. THAT'LL KEEP 'EM HYDRATED! muhahahaha We'll see if the little pumpkins need water so badly then!

cackle cackle

(rileyt.. the new wicked witch of the west)

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Madison
Jun. 4, 2003, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AAJumper:
On a warm day, I gulp multiple cups of water after a jumper round on my hot TB mare. And that is only after one round! And it's usually my trainer who is giving me the water (unless a friend is standing nearby) and we talk about the round while I drink. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

likewise - I'm usually gulping water between rounds and just listening to my trainer!! Always funny to me that nerves at a show make one round feel like you just did five sometimes!!

Nanette
Jun. 4, 2003, 10:58 AM
I think I've come up with the perfect solution for this hydrating problem...you know those baseball caps that have attachments on either side to put beer cans, and tubes inserted into the cans which have the other end inside the person's mouth? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Just think, we could do a similar thing with riding helmets! LOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Beethoven
Jun. 4, 2003, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~SC~:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:

Where is sunny with a good sunny opinion when we need one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha!! Sunny was always really fair about water breaks, but that's b/c she knew that she worked us hard and we REALLY needed them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif We either stuck out water bottles on a jump or she would hold them on her cart. Heck, I can even remember a few lessons when she _walked around and handed us our water!!_ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~Sarah~


~Disgruntled College Students Clique~Georgia Clique~Junior Clique (Can I please still be a member?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )~ Buckle Bunnies http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, Sunny understands about the water. I usually won't drink water until the break in betwx flatting in jumping thats if I have water if not oh well I will live! Never really saw the big deal anyways hehe!! My water bottle is always on a jump tho http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif!

~Jenna & Beethoven~
Proud Member of the Thoroughbred Clique & the Children's Jumpers Clique & the GA Clique & TS Clique "To ride or not to ride? What a stupid question!"

arcadia
Jun. 4, 2003, 12:35 PM
I understand what you are getting at jsalem and feel your pain.

As a mother I would be saying to my child, excuse me but I am paying for this so hurry up and drink and get your butt back out there. My daughter dances and the door is shut so we can't even watch, so if you have the privledge of watching, encourage them to focus on their lesson.

I grew up with my Dad always saying "it's a long way from your heart, get back on" so needless to say I was not coddled!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I would rather laugh with the sinners, than cry with the saints - The Piano Man

AAJumper
Jun. 4, 2003, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madison:
Always funny to me that nerves at a show make one round feel like you just did five sometimes!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL...I think for me it has to do with the fact that my horse turns into a wild thing as soon as she hears the jumper tones! It takes a heck of a lot of energy to navigate her around a jumper course...especially if I make it to the jumpoff!

o2binca
Jun. 4, 2003, 02:42 PM
What's wrong with kids these days!!!

Have you noticed that a lot of the threads on this BB talk about how soft kids are because they are coddled by their mothers? Then there are an equal number of threads that talk about how badly behaved kids are because they are unsupervised.

The fact is that we live in a very complex world and the jobs of raising kids and growing up are more difficult than they used to be. Kids have more to learn and need both more protection and more street smarts than ever.

For example, in riding I think many of today's parents recognize that children need to learn respect for their trainer while at the same time be cognizant and speak up if any abuse is occurring.

These sometimes opposing issues are not easy things to teach children. What is the exact right place between protecting/supporting a child and allowing them the room to figure out/accomplish things on their own? It's a hard place to find, and it doesn't happen all at once - more like inch by inch. Sometimes kids need to work more on showing respect and sometimes they need to work more on the recognition of someone else's bad behavior.

It's a tough job these days for both parents and kids and a lot more fluid a process than it is sometimes represented. But I think that threads like this one show that there are adults out there trying to find the right balance and do the right things for kids. I also think that many of the juniors on this BB show that in the end there is a lot of successful parenting and mentoring going on in the horse world.

Hopeful Hunter
Jun. 4, 2003, 06:46 PM
oh, my......

Not that the real ISSUE was ever getting a sip of water, but fwiw, here's an amusing story for you...

When I took up lessons as a 30 yr old adult, the barn manager was known to be "mean." She was actually a shy woman with less than stellar social skills, and a bluntness that made me look like a Southern Sweetheart -- a stretch for a NJ/NY B*tch, let me tell you. Somehow, after a year or so, my, uh, expressive style and clearly competitive, self-critical nature made the instructor dump me over to the *gasp!* barn manager for training. She didn't often train, but those she had had done well. However, she was DEMANDING.

Our lessons were pretty amusing for specators -- we often joked we should sell tickets to them. She'd shout "what the H$ll are you DOING up there?!" and I'd shout back "If I knew I wouldn't be paying you! YOU tell me, and tell me how to fix it already!" and so on. It appeared downright nasty to some, I'm sure, but it worked for us -- I respected her knowledge and skills, she respected and appreciated my effort. But when we worked, we WORKED. The lesson was supposed to be an hour. On rare, wonderful days when everything clicked, we might only ride 35 minutes and she's say to stop. But on other days, we'd go up to two hours to get it right.

On one such day, one of my barn mates came, noticed I was still riding, and wandered to the ring. I was having terrible difficulties finding my way around a tiny course, so I had a little break while my trainer set some guide rails on the fences to keep me straight.

During this, my friend asked if I wanted a drink...as my trainer came back to me. In sheer frustration, she snapped "no she can't have a drink! She's going to go back and jump that course until she gets it right and I don't care if she falls off from exhaustion doing it! THEN she can have a drink!"

That was about five years ago. She no longer teaches, and has mellowed sooooo much now that she's a mom. But we all still giggle about that famous comment.....

MistyBlue
Jun. 4, 2003, 08:14 PM
Quote: By O2binca
What's wrong with kids these days!!!

Have you noticed that a lot of the threads on this BB talk about how soft kids are because they are coddled by their mothers? Then there are an equal number of threads that talk about how badly behaved kids are because they are unsupervised.

The fact is that we live in a very complex world and the jobs of raising kids and growing up are more difficult than they used to be. Kids have more to learn and need both more protection and more street smarts than ever."

IMO, our world is more complex DUE to the way our children are being raised on the average. It's more dangerous because many of today's younger society has never learned social skills nor respect. Raising kids is only more difficult these days due to parents all trying to out-do each other in raising kids the pc way. And it's very hard for children to develop street smarts when many of their parents either a) don't have them themselves nor b) insist on children having everything easy, handed to them, and never having the free chunks of time children need to be children.
Can you honestly imagine the moms in the 60's & 70's living in their station wagons taking Muffin to dance, soccer, interpretive piano, drama, tennis, painting and horseback riding? THEN making sure the child had scheduled playdates set up? Whatever happened to ONE activity (because pumpkin REALLY isn't the center of the universe)and kids running around the neighborhood finding their own friends and making their own playtimes of sports games? They'd learn a LOT more street smarts that way. It's not that today's world is changing so fast...back in the day kids went from far travel being state to state to commercial airlines, color tv, moms heading off to join the work force, crime rising and falling, free love, drugs, etc. Now we have the same exact latter problems (drugs and crimes, mom's working. It's the same, the media just hypes it more) and the new stuff is kids listen to music on dvd's, they have microwaves, the internet and playstations instead of Atari. Its' the parent's who have changed, not the times. They've thrown out the basics of raising children that worked for centuries...discipline, teaching and enforcing respect, manners, life's NOT fair, making rules and sticking to them, expecting children to grow up, teaching them to be productive members of society, that nobody owes them anything and that they are responsible for their actions.
My kids are either learning that or have learned that already. (I have 2 grown) Our grandma's child raising theories WORK. Yes, even in these times. All of my nieces and nephews were raised the same. (17 of them, between the ages of 2 and 26) Many parents comment on how well behaved and nice our children are. They're not perfect, but they're not atrocious either.

Jsalem
Jun. 5, 2003, 05:05 AM
Good comment. I can remember actually being bored as a child. Mom would say, "read a book." I remember jumping in piles of leaves. I tinkered with piano lessons and rode. That was my one activity.

Today, when I'm interviewing new clients, I make it clear that I expect my show kids to ride 4-6 days per week (4 days when schoolwork takes precedence)

I actually had a new family call me for lessons this week with twin girls. They are thinking of leaving their current barn because the old trainer (very good quality) had left and the new trainer wasn't of great experience or quality. These are "school" lesson types- crossrail riders. They want high quality instruction (me, not one of my assistants), very nice horses (not yucky school horses). After 20 minutes of discussion of their "needs" mom happens to mention, "Oh yeah, we're so busy that the girls can only ride every other week!" Now what the heck am I supposed to with that?

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

HSM
Jun. 5, 2003, 06:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jsalem:
I can remember actually being bored as a child..... Today, when I'm interviewing new clients, I make it clear that I expect my show kids to ride 4-6 days per week (4 days when schoolwork takes precedence)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So when do they get to be "bored"? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Guess it's ok to be too busy as long as they are busy with what you want....... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> These are "school" lesson types- crossrail riders. They want high quality instruction (me, not one of my assistants), very nice horses (not yucky school horses). what the heck am I supposed to with that?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess what you are supposed to do is tell them you can't help them - they would be better off someplace else. But let me tell you, as a mom who has been to a bunch of different barns and seen how the "school lesson types" are often treated (as in "they-don't-really-count-so-who-cares?"), I don't necessarily blame this mom for trying to be picky. I am not saying this is how you treat such kids, but believe me, it is a prevalent attitude.

By the way, o2binca.... I am with you.
------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

Jsalem
Jun. 5, 2003, 06:38 AM
That's basically what I did. I didn't close the door to them, I invited them over to watch us work, but made it clear that our lessons were weekly lessons. Its too bad, because apparently these girls have some real ability.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

Jsalem
Jun. 5, 2003, 06:42 AM
You know, its funny you mention how the "school lesson" types are treated as though they don't matter. I guess thats my problem. It dosen't matter to me in what category one of my riders falls. I have the same expectations for all of them. That's my problem! Even the once a weekers are expected to be disciplined, hard working and serious. But read the previous posts and you'll see that I'm supposed to "lighten up" Sigh---

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

Sam Iam
Jun. 5, 2003, 08:54 AM
02binca,

Very well said. I don't think that the majority of non-parents appreciate how difficult it is to raise children. Now, or in the past. I know I did not have a true appreciation of how much I owe my own parents until I had children of my own.

Many of the most parent-critical individuals on this thread proclaim in their posts to "not to like children very much." I'm assuming from comments like these that these individuals do not have children of their own. What's the old sang...walk a mile in my shoes before passing judgement.

I know in my own childless days, I used to be mortified by the way I saw young child (i.e. toddlers) behaving in restaurants and my husband and I would request seating away from all families. Now that I've experienced the toddler years and parenthood first-hand. I realize that the majority of parents are doing the best they can and want to raise their children to be contributing members of society. It's just a really tough job and frankly, all you parent-bashers need to give us a break.

To those that think kids are being coddled. Who knows? Some probably are and some probably aren't. But I challenge all of you non-parents out there to take the love you have for your horse, spouse or whomever and multiply it by about a million and you'll know how us parents feel about our kids. Give us break, we're doing the best we can with the most precious gift we've ever been given!!! It's just something you can't understand until you've had children of your own, I know I didn't get it before I had kids of my own.

Off soap-box now and zipping up flame suit.

o2binca
Jun. 5, 2003, 12:32 PM
I agree that a lot of the basics of child rearing has not changed. Kids need love, age appropriate limits, consequences when those limits are overstepped, to learn life's lessons, etc.

But, the media, the internet, society's acceptance of what is publically acceptable and increased opportunities for children means that today's children are exposed to more information and more people than ever. In addition, more people (both good and bad) have access to each child. Criminals are more brazen, single parent homes are more common and abuse and its detrimantal effects are more recognized.

One simple example showing the difference is television. In the 60's a child could turn on the tv and the most suggestive thing they would see is a fully pajamed married couple each getting into their own single bed. A child today can turn on the tv and see a fairly graphic display of oral sex on shows like "Sex in the City". I believe kids today need more protection and more skill to deal with what they're exposed to.

In my own experience I didn't think the parenting of the 60's and 70's was all that great. Where I grew up externals such as the right clothes, table manner and polite behavior were stressed, but beyond that a lot of parents didn't pass on many life skills to their kids.

As much as I think it's important for children to learn to respect adults, I also feel it is just as important for children to learn to respect their own feelings in determining which adults deserve respect (does not necessarily mean they are rude to an adult they don't respect). They need to learn to be polite, but also when it is unsafe to be polite. They need to learn what behavior is acceptable and to set limits on inappropriate behavior - even if it comes from an adult they are supposed to respect. This is really hard stuff to teach and the external behavior may not always be perfect, but the real goal to have it ingrained by the time they reach adulthood.

I see a lot of parents doing a great job and a lot of good kids today who are dealing with a lot - just look at some of the amazing juniors on this BB. I think trainers like jsalem make a parent's job easier. She saw a need, found a good solution and everyone benefitted (including the parents).

All parents make mistakes - some are made from trying too hard and some are made for less acceptable reasons. In dealing with parents, sometimes a horse trainer needs to educate the parent, sometimes they need to set limits with the parent and sometimes it's hopeless and they need to send the parent on their way. Not only will the trainer be making his/her own life easier, but they will be setting a good example fot their students.

Moo
Jun. 6, 2003, 08:47 AM
Well I mean I agree with you, there are limits. I understand your frustration!

"We came, we rode, we conquered."
*Member of the TB Clique, Young Trainers clique and the Disgruntled College Student Clique.*

LimeKiwi
Jun. 6, 2003, 11:42 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifMy trainer and I BOTH get a drink of water when we need it http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

*Tiffany*

*livejournal* (http://www.livejournal.com/users/equinekisses/)

*My webshots* (http://community.webshots.com/user/usaponyjumper)

tatertot
Jun. 8, 2003, 04:15 PM
After reading last summer about certain athletes dying or being hospitalized during athletic assertions, due to heat strokes and dehydration etc. alot of parents are concerned about keeping their kids healthy during athletic activity and I think adults too are much more concerned about keeping hydrated during excercise, I always have my water bottle handy and after reading this post I asked my trainer how he felt about it and he would much rather us be comfortable during the lesson than toughing it out or passing out. Now if you know you are going to be riding in a competition where there is not going to be any kind of break for an extended period of time I can see your point but otherwise I don't think it is "soft " to get a drink of water when you are thirsty, I think it is smart. As long as these kids are being respectful of you as an instructor and getting their water when you have said it is okay to take a break I don't get the problem??

tatertot
Jun. 8, 2003, 04:33 PM
sorry Jsalem , I didn't read ALL ( soo many ) of the posts before responding, I just perused and I have to say after reading through more of them, you sound like an excellent trainer who lets the parents and the kids know what to expect before riding with you, I am glad that you are not depriving the little lovelies of their water by finding a better alternative, it is understandable that you don't want mommies and daddies coaching the kids in the middle of the lesson that is disruptive - I will have to remember that when my son begins doing things. Keep up the good work teaching those kids how to be good at what they do.

barnbabe718
Jun. 8, 2003, 05:32 PM
WOW! This is a rather interesting topic. Well, I'm 16; and I've been riding for 11 years. My parents rarely came to my lessons when I was younger (my sister always took me), but I was still a HUGE crybaby. But I remember my first fall vividly. Big, sweet school horse cantering along nicely; and I slid right off the side. No one made a scene; and therefore, I wasn't upset. I got back on, and I finished my lesson.

Last season, I fell off of my horse at a schooling show in warmup. I jumped up, caught my horse; and my trainer came out to give me a leg back up. My mom came running out all concerned, and I told her to leave the ring. She smiled at me and said that she was proud that I had become so tough.

Now, my parents rarely come to my shows because I'm self-sufficient; and, more importantly, because they drive me crazy and get in the way while I'm competing. This wasn't my trainer's idea; it was mine, and my parents don't mind, as they want me to get the most out of my experiences. If I'm thirsty, I get a drink. It's not that big of a deal. If I'm hot at a show, sitting on my horse waiting for a class, my trainer will even buy me a bottle of water. Is it "soft" to be dehydrated? Hmm... I don't think so. BUT, I would never talk in a baby voice (at age 16) and ask "Mommy" or "Daddy" for something.

As far as the "kids these days" comments, I think that these are some really unfair generalizations. As people have said, there are kids out there that are intelligent, hard-working, determined, and respectful. These kids work their hardest day in and day out, and it's really difficult to be consistently grouped into the stereotype of teenagers.

This is getting really long; but I just want to say that I completely understand, even as a student, the frustration that trainers experience when their students don't all try their hardest. In most cases, in order to become a successful trainer, you have put your riding career in front of everything else. Thus, it's hard to understand someone else's lack of interest. If you're not comfortable teaching beginners or people that aren't so determined or don't have such high aspirations, then you shouldn't teach them.

* Liz *
* Cat Burglar
* Made Ya Look
* McGyver
* Expertese
* Finder's Keepers
* Boston Duchess

cbv
Jun. 8, 2003, 08:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MistyBlue:
Quote: By O2binca
Can you honestly imagine the moms in the 60's & 70's..."

This sort of cracks me up...my brothers and I being kids in the 60's and 70's. I seem to remember comments that started with 'Kids these days", when referring to our generation, were rampant. So I don't think our folks had any lock on being perfect parents...I think they stumbled along and did the best they could...and for the most part were successful, given a little luck and alot of love, just like today's parents.

My mom (a member of what is now known as the 'greatest generation") put it in perspective when she told me stories of her grandma, who had lived through the civil war, and considered my mom's generation soft.

I am childless, but I am with the moms and dads like o2binca. Everytime I hear someone in my generation use the term 'kids these days'or 'parents these days', I just cringe.

When I boarded,I loved the juniors at our barn. 99% of the time they were jovial, funny, hardworking, conscientous, and for the most part gutsy and talented. On occasion they were testy or whiny (something at 44 I am capable of myself on occasion). Folks looking for evidence of youthful bad behavior might see those moments and pass the usual judgements.

[This message was edited by cbv on Jun. 08, 2003 at 10:41 PM.]

[This message was edited by cbv on Jun. 09, 2003 at 02:45 PM.]

BarnGodess
Jun. 8, 2003, 08:50 PM
I only get a drink on the fence if my trainer is setting up jumps and it may take a while and she says to walk your horses around or if i ask her first. The thing that worries me is that people think that my mom babies me because she brings my water to the fence and is there at horse shows and so on. But the truth is that she comes out to my lessons because she loves horses as much as I do and she loves being out there. She brings the water to me because she wants to drink it herself while I am riding. (i only take one water break if i have to, but most lessons not at all)She comes to horse shows all the time when I am not showing or even when our barn does not go. When i am showing she helps me by holding my jacket and so on. I am always comcerned what people will think of her always being around so sometimes I even tell her i can handle it myself. Should i be concerned that she is helping me to much ? Because she is not going to be there one day and i feel like her help is just a crutch for me to hold on to now, if she is even helping to much.

" Sharp-ears, Wise-nose, Swish-tail, and Bumpkin,
White-socks my little lad, and OLD FATTY LUMPKIN!"
~Tom Bombadil~

tatertot
Jun. 9, 2003, 09:47 AM
Barngoddess don't for one second feel bad that your mom is there, she is there because she loves you and is proud of you and wants to make sure that you are safe as well. There are alot of sicko's out there and as parents we want to make sure we are there for our kids if they need us - you don't sound like a whiny brat who is running to mommy for everything, as long as you know in your heart that you are capable let mom enjoy your success - that is something we mom's live for we raise you the best we can and hope we have done a good job and watching you succeed is one of lifes greatest gifts. Give your mom a big hug , kiss and thank you for loving you enough to want to be with you - and don't for one second be ashamed- you are a lucky girl.

SilentReflection
Jun. 13, 2003, 10:52 PM
Barngoddess you are a total DORK!! take it from me--I NEVER THOUGHT THAT ABOUT YOU!! we all love your mom and it's so obvious she wants to be out there as much as you do. i have never heard you talk back to your mom and i have never heard your mom get overly angry at you *even when you directed us to the wrong hotel*

"If you have a good gelding you have a good horse. If you have a good stallion you have a good horse. But, if you have a good mare, you have a great horse."

icy98ach
Jun. 13, 2003, 11:05 PM
It might sound weird, but in my 10+ years of riding in VA I don't think that I ever took a water break during a lesson. I always kept a water bottle in our box at the ring during shows because it has to be about 95 degrees before they excuse jacets and by that time I NEED water when I get out of the ring.