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Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 12:54 AM
COTHers, do you practice, ride, train Rollkur method? Do you do it at home or at the warm ups or at clinics? For how many years?

*********
Can you post a video of "correct" rollkur?

When Deep becomes Rollkur?

Why and when it is necessary to absolutely close the neck and held the horse for the prolonged periods of time in the hyper flexion beyond the natural flexion of the neck of the horse?

*********

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbk7HWtQWbM

Carl Hester. As the warmup progresses the horse is definitely LDR with poll not the highest place.

Looks OK to me. I present this as a sample of "good" LDR.



if everyone is saying that they think what is shown in the video is rollkur - we aren't even talking about the same thing. AT ALL.

here is what i consider rollkur

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuXQDOun7yY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5pH5CEoZks&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmnHm9tQg&feature=channel


This is the example of rollkur: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4 This is quite different from Carl Hester video that you posted. And this is the responce form the ride in this video:

"Patrik Kittel was called up on the telephone before we ran the story. However, Mr. Kittel did not wish to comment beyond a reference to his lawyers and a statement that he believes he is using the method, hyperflexion of the neck, in the correct way and so also in accordance with the FEI Code of Conduct. "

I hope that most horse people can see the difference of those videos and can see the difference of riding Deep verses riding hyperflexion/rollkur/ldr?

Otherwise the whole conversation is pointless and rollkur will always be hiding behind the Deep Method...

Creaghgal
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:16 AM
3,493 posts and you don't know where this train's a'goan?

Oh. You do. That’s the point.

Pointless thread.
Dismissed.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:18 AM
This is like asking, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Pffffft.

rodawn
Jan. 25, 2010, 02:30 AM
DA - Disappointed you would bring this up. This has been hotly discussed, debated, argued, hashed, rehashed and bashed around already. Ad nauseam. Please withdraw the thread and save our sanity.

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 02:49 AM
And I'm disappointed that you are not voicing your opinion for the welfare of the horse. Rollkur is not banned at the warm-up yet, but it should be, so it's not discussed enough yet.


Go pick on a Rollkurista. I'm not one.

I'm trying to find out! So who is this Rollkurista? How many do we have here? How far did Rollkur take them/you?

If people who are supporting/arguing in favor of Rollkur, stand for their training methods = they will not have any issues of answering those questions.

If they/you do not practice Rollkur = why do you support and argue in favor of Rollkur?

Are you ashamed to admit that you practice Rollkur?

Sabine
Jan. 25, 2010, 03:25 AM
I don't get your rationale?? do you think folks will gladly jump up and say- Oh yes I am a Rollkurista? Do you think folks have not gotten the message yet?

Those that truly study will know that there are elements of rollkur (not those ugly photos by golly) that are beneficial and they are only to certain horses and under certain conditions...does anyone here ride like Anky? Hell NO- because if they did- WE would own dressage and not the Dutch...haha!!

In other words my dear...there is no rollkur here- maybe some really bad rollkur but not the effective rollkur that wins Olympic medals and World Cups- so therefore let it go in peace. The really bad rollkur is just like the really bad jumping or the really bad natural horsemanship or the really bad western training...it turns your gut inside out and it doesn't seem peaceful or respectful of the horse.

NOBODY WANTS THAT!
done with that subject...go back - read some more and don't think you can change dressage by posting a thread like this. You can only change it by riding better- cleaner and more effectively - one day at a time- while respecting the horse and KNOWING HOW TO TRAIN- which you will learn with reading and practice and exchanging experiences with similar minded friends...

best to you!

egontoast
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:10 AM
3,493 posts and you don't know where this train's a'goan?

Oh. You do. That’s the point.

Pointless thread.
Dismissed.

Exactly.

Filed in Bored/ Night Posting/Adult Beverages.

alicen
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:53 AM
Quote: "Those that truly study will know that there are elements of rollkur (not those ugly photos by golly) that are beneficial and they are only to certain horses and under certain conditions..."

But that's just it, Sabine. Study how? Where are the books? The DVD's? Interviews? Magazine articles? Clinics? When, how, what, where, why to train with hyperflexion? Or LDR? Heck, we don't even know its name. What is bad hyperflexion? What is good hyperflexion? Should the neck be lifting from the withers? Straight out? Down? What throatlatch angle? Combined with how much impulsion? Additionally, some Olympic riders have used the "force" word in reference to LDR. So how are we to uncritically accept a training method which, in its exclusivity , more and more comes to resemble a cult practise?
Just asking.

slc2
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:18 AM
You're not going to get a technical discussion of hyperflexion here. Just an emotional one.

piggiponiis
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:35 AM
i agree it looks like you are just trying to get folks going again. If that is not the case, why wouldn't you have done a poll?

Bluey
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:49 AM
Who was saying we should not compete "ugly"?:yes:

We should also not feed "ugly" witch hunts either.:no:

slc2
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:56 AM
Polls are not exactly free of hyperflexion fur flying either. People vote, and then post, ya know.

I honestly don't feel it's a subject that can be discussed in a balanced way here, technically, unemotionally, without descending into name calling, accusations and emotional tirades. Those in favor start the chest beating tune, 'It Wins, You're Dumb' and the not in favors start with the even more familiar, well known rockin' base riff of 'It's Abuse, You're Dumb'.

BayHorseUK
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:32 AM
Honestly, the whole hyperflexion debate saddens me to no end, not because of the issue itself but because it shows up the biggest travesty of modern day dressage - it seems that very few of us are truly interested in pursuing the art/sport with scientific curiosity, intellectual integrity and philosophic dedication, and attempting to further the knowledge of the great masters of prior generations. Instead we would rather place ourselves in camps of Pro-this and Anti-that and champion a few soundbites we picked up somewhere. THAT, in my view, is a bigger threat to dressage than we've seen for decades, or maybe centuries. :no:

I'm wracking my brain trying to come up with some good theoretical dressage questions to pose to the board, in the hope that we could have an edifying and civil discussion.... but everything i come up with is potentially a target for the flinging about of these pet-issue diatribes. See I would love to discuss the technical merits of intermitent hyperflexion for muscular development, and would be interested in healthy informed debate, but I won't even try because all we'll end up with is "omigod-that-poor-horse's-nose-has-been-wrestled-to-its-chest-it-cant-breathe-and-its-not-pretty" and on the flip side "you-aren't-qualified-to-comment-because-that-level-of-training-is-so-far-beyond-you-so-what-do-you-know". Please, can anyone come up with some good philosophic conversations we can have and post them, so that you all can show me that i'm just a crotchety old cynic and it's really not so bad....? :yes:

slc2
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:39 AM
No, it is that bad, but what is 'that bad', is the internet. Even reasonable, normal people don't appear that way once they saddle up and get on the internet. This isn't the place to come for what you want, Bay horse.

To an extent, dressage is a 'passion sport'. Passions simply run very high. Even....EVEN...off the internet.

If you want to learn, go to a dressage trainer. Hopefully a good one.

The best way to learn about it, would be go to a bunch of trainers who use hyperflexion, and ride with them, then go to a bunch of people who don't use it, ride with them, and compare. Neither camp is likely to do that, because they feel too strongly about it to do that.

I do know one person that has, though. Sjef jensen (sp).

retrofit
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:49 AM
I do. First, I put my horse in a bitting rig in a hyperflexion frame for 5 hours in his stall. This loosens up his neck. Then I ride him for 2-3 hours/day. I keep his chin within 4" of his chest at all times. Then for the last 5 minutes, I pop him in the mouth with the curb rein a few times to bring him up into a show ring frame. Of course I have to kick like mad with my rowel spurs when I do this. This training method is what gets me all my blue ribbons because the judges are all blind incomptent fools.

twofatponies
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:06 AM
I do. First, I put my horse in a bitting rig in a hyperflexion frame for 5 hours in his stall. This loosens up his neck. Then I ride him for 2-3 hours/day. I keep his chin within 4" of his chest at all times. Then for the last 5 minutes, I pop him in the mouth with the curb rein a few times to bring him up into a show ring frame. Of course I have to kick like mad with my rowel spurs when I do this. This training method is what gets me all my blue ribbons because the judges are all blind incomptent fools.

LOL, you beat me to it. ;P

ginger708
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:52 AM
I agree with other posts that you can not have a proper discussion on something so emotional here. Even though I can not see where hyperflexion would fit in my training, I thought that Anky had a perfectly logical explanation for why she uses it.

I feel for her that she gets attacked at every turn when I see much worse going on in the amateur warm up ring on a regular basis.

I like to bend a horse using the inside rein past their tension to get them on the bit. It does not look pretty when I do it but it is sound training and the horse learns that the outside rein is the happy place. I am sure to an untrained eye that it looks awful but I can assure you that it does not hurt the horse. The over bending accomplishes teaching the horse the outside rein and to use it for support. If I had to explain myself every time I over-bent a horse to put him on the outside rein I would go insane.

I would like to see real evidence to the effect of the practical use of hyperflection to improve the horse. And I would like to see veterinary study's of it's effects on the anatomy by impartial parties.

Amazone
Jan. 25, 2010, 12:01 PM
Tineke Bartel's book "Ride horses with awareness and feel" discusses the Dutch training method if you want to learn more about it. I do however think that "rollkur" is presented in a rather mild form in the book, but it is a good read and explains the whole training method quite well.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 25, 2010, 12:24 PM
Obviously there is a "sliding scale" of Rollkur, from the mildly BTV position to the chin-on-chest position. What irks me is the apparent wholesale condemnation of ANY degree of BTV. At what point does it become abusive? I will agree COC looks uncomfortable at best, abusive at worst. When does BTV tip from a slight "violation" of the perfect standard to outright abusive and cruel?

This is like arguing about how many angels can dance on a pinhead. Ir is it like the judge said about pornography? "You know it when you see it?"

Beauty, and abuse, is in the eye of the beholder. No, I don't "support" Rollkur, but would I occasionally put a horse BTV? Sure I would -- momentarily, not long term.

The problem with DA and her ilk is they are absolutists. All or nothing, black or white. And they remind me of religious zealots. There is no arguing with them, they have The Way, The Truth, and The Light.

So be it.

claire
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:15 PM
alicen, I agree. Impossible to ask civil questions or have a discussion about this training continuem: Deep>>>>>>RK/Hyperflexion.

The term Rollkur/Hyperflexion has come to encompass any deliberate BTV position of the head or "deep" positioning method all the way to the "chin strapped to the chest" extreme method.

Ordinary "deep" positioning is one of the tools that many pros/upper level/elite riders use to work with certain horses.

Is it any wonder that people who use deep training feel they will be hung out to dry as a "rollerkurist" and get defensive?

So, perhaps more clarity regarding the terms Deep vs. Rollkur /Hyperflexion?

It would be interesting to learn more about the benefits vs. bad side effects of both deep training and RK/HF.
Because, to my way of thinking we are discussing apples and oranges here:
Deep vs. RK/HF.



Quote: "Those that truly study will know that there are elements of rollkur (not those ugly photos by golly) that are beneficial and they are only to certain horses and under certain conditions..."

But that's just it, Sabine. Study how? Where are the books? The DVD's? Interviews? Magazine articles? Clinics? When, how, what, where, why to train with hyperflexion? Or LDR? Heck, we don't even know its name. What is bad hyperflexion? What is good hyperflexion? Should the neck be lifting from the withers? Straight out? Down? What throatlatch angle? Combined with how much impulsion? Additionally, some Olympic riders have used the "force" word in reference to LDR. So how are we to uncritically accept a training method which, in its exclusivity , more and more comes to resemble a cult practise?
Just asking.

BaroquePony
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:20 PM
The definition of the difference between pornography and eroticism is that porn is considerd to be "exploitive", which, although still subjective to a point, at least tries to define the difference.

Secondly, I think the internet is an excellent method of discussion. As far as people's comments getting out of control on the net ... well, they are just hiding that type of nasty behavior when in public because, quite frankly, it makes them out to be the jerks they really are which really is not all that socially acceptable. I believe some of it falls under "anti-social" behavior. I know that I can be anti-social under certain circumstances, but at least I know it, and I try to keep it down to a dull roar.

ginger708
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:26 PM
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;4640389]The definition of the difference between pornography and eroticism is that porn is considerd to be "exploitive", which, although still subjective to a point, at least tries to define the difference.

Not giving an opinion, just for academic discussion can we differentiate good or bad training methods based on the exploitation of the horse? Or does all training to some degree exploit the horse?

asb_own_me
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:51 PM
I have a majickal spotted unicorn who shits golden butterflies, and I rollkur the hell outta that pony. Did I mention it's 18 months old? But super mature and developed. Because of all the corn I feed it. And I have Linda Parelli help me teach it games.

:lol:

ThreeFigs
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:57 PM
HAHAHAHA!

Be verrry, verrry careful doing RK on a Unicorn!

mbm
Jan. 25, 2010, 02:19 PM
so, here is an honest question: for those that suggest just riding your own horse as best you can and not getting vocal about certain "issues" ..

how exactly do you think that is going to affect change?

or do you not think change is needed?

ThreeFigs
Jan. 25, 2010, 02:28 PM
I think RK is just fine, as long as you've de-horned your Unicorn.

RK on a Unicorn with its horn intact is just inviting terrible rollover accidents.

No, your question is not "honest". It's just More Of The Same.

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 02:51 PM
alicen, I agree. Impossible to ask civil questions or have a discussion about this training continuem: Deep>>>>>>RK/Hyperflexion.
Yes I see that now from the continues comic replies from some people. I personally dont find force and dominance with horses funny.

I dont really want this conversation to be sidelined to be Deep ver RollKur. I had this conversation already and even created illustrations for it. I think there is a very distinct line between Deep and Rollkur. I am fine with seeing Deep training at the show warm-ups but it makes me sick to see RollKur at the show warm-ups.

I dont know personally anybody who uses RollKur, so I cant ask my questions directly. Im hoping that somebody here who uses RollKur (not only read and saw it) can answer my questions.

But again, I strongly believe that Deep is NOT the same as RollKur. SP trains Deep. Anky trains RollKur. The difference is huge! I know people who train Deep and talked with them about that training method and it is NOT the same as RollKur

rodawn
Jan. 25, 2010, 02:53 PM
And I'm disappointed that you are not voicing your opinion for the welfare of the horse. Rollkur is not banned at the warm-up yet, but it should be, so it's not discussed enough yet.

I'm trying to find out! So who is this Rollkurista? How many do we have here? How far did Rollkur take them/you?

If people who are supporting/arguing in favor of Rollkur, stand for their training methods = they will not have any issues of answering those questions.

If they/you do not practice Rollkur = why do you support and argue in favor of Rollkur?

Are you ashamed to admit that you practice Rollkur?

Wow. I have voiced my opinion. On one of the many other threads about this subject. I am not in favor of Rollkur, At All, have never used it and never will.

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 02:59 PM
Tineke Bartel's book "Ride horses with awareness and feel" discusses the Dutch training method if you want to learn more about it. I do however think that "rollkur" is presented in a rather mild form in the book, but it is a good read and explains the whole training method quite well.
Yes, I got it and read it. But it presents RollKur as Deep method and while I would agree with the book if we were talking about Deep, I think the book is not quite honest if its really talks about RollKur.

Again I have no issue with the Deep work that SP trains with.

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 03:06 PM
Wow. I have voiced my opinion. On one of the many other threads about this subject. I am not in favor of Rollkur, At All, have never used it and never will.
You gave me an impression that you tried to sweep RollKur subject under the rug? Why?

If you are not a supporter of RollKur and if you are not training with this method, why you are trying to stop people who are trying to put a stop to that method? You are giving more power to the supporters and to followers of RollKur by doing that.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 25, 2010, 03:07 PM
DA, I believe you are attempting to use "force and dominance" on anyone who is not in lockstep with you.

It is a slippery slope between Deep and Rollkur. Who decides when Deep slips into the abusive realm of RK? This IS one of the long-standing issues that was being discussed even 20 or more years ago. Only then, the term RK wasn't invented -- it was just Deep.

I am not "pro-Rollkur", but I am rapidly becoming "anti-DA". You are so far over the top on this, you risk driving away rational support for your position.

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

"When did you stop Rollkuring your horse?"

Even an innocent person comes away with smudges of guilt, no matter how those questions are answered. Which was your intent.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 25, 2010, 03:12 PM
Oh, I see. "If you are not with us, you are against us."

What if I decide I just don't like you and don't want to be associated with any cause you deem worthwhile? While I may be in agreement that Rollkur is ugly and harsh, I will not jump on your bandwagon.

I don't want to be that close to you. Do you see how you're alienating people from both yourself and your cause?

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 03:22 PM
I am rapidly becoming "anti-DA".Beasmom, I am prepared that standing up for the welfare of the horse will bring some personal attacks. I did that before. So I'm not surprised on your expected responses.

Nobody is twisting your arm to open, to read, or to respond to the thread about RollKur. And it was YOU by the way, who gave me an idea for this thread. I posted your quote above as well. So you have nobody to blame for that thread but yourself.

Please stop polluting my thread. If you have nothing informative to say about RollKur subject, please restrain yourself from the written diarrhea.

caddym
Jan. 25, 2010, 03:56 PM
So, if you are saying that "DEEP" is what Tineke is describing in her book, then exactly what is "ROLLKUR"?

A popular local "r" judge was at Achen and claims that SP was warming up in rollkur.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 25, 2010, 04:36 PM
That's the problem. When does Deep become RK? This is the source of all the sturm und drang. No one can satisfactorily define that tipping point. There will always be (violent) disagreements.

So DA and MBM et al can keep beating this subject to death but will never reach a conclusion that everyone can agree on. And so they will go on and on and on...

So, to make peace with the Rollkurmaniacs, I hereby pledge to always ride my horses inverted so that no one could ever accuse me of riding them in RK. Inversion Conversion!

All hail Rollkurmania!

(The national flag of Rollkurmania is run up the flagpole and patriotic music plays in the background...)

caddym
Jan. 25, 2010, 04:49 PM
"Inversion Conversion" :) Maybe we should get us some non-white hats:)

Karoline
Jan. 25, 2010, 04:50 PM
DA, I believe you are attempting to use "force and dominance" on anyone who is not in lockstep with you.
.

Ah, you mean she is trying to rolkur you? Incomfortable isn'it?

ThreeFigs
Jan. 25, 2010, 05:07 PM
Yeah, but it's hard to do through the internet!

Zevida
Jan. 25, 2010, 05:18 PM
So, if you are saying that "DEEP" is what Tineke is describing in her book, then exactly what is "ROLLKUR"?

A popular local "r" judge was at Achen and claims that SP was warming up in rollkur.
Oh please. At least in the video of the warm-up that has been available on YouTube, no reasonable person could call that hyperflexion. An "r" judge who would do so is being just as inflammatory as some of you accusing DA of stirring the hornet's nest. Unless the judge is referring to something other than what is available for viewing on YouTube right now.

I think that hyperflexion very much falls under the same "you know it when you see it" as pornography. Hyperflexion is over-flexing the horse to a point that their throatlatch is closed and their nose is near or on their chest and the rider is using their body as leverage to hold the horse in that position for an extended period of time (more than 2-3 strides).

Any horse being ridden deep or long and low can momentarily come a little too closed, but in the video of Steffan's warm-up it is clear that the horse is being encouraged to reach forward and be open, as evidence by how often there is a loop in the reins. On the contrary, Scandic is being asked to be as closed as possible and Kittel is using his body as leverage to hold the horse in a position of severe over-flexion. Scandic's nose might momentarily poke out, but he is corrected to bring it in closer to his chest.

Any "r" judge who thinks these are even remotely similar riding and training styles would be crossed off my list of prospective judges.

egontoast
Jan. 25, 2010, 05:23 PM
If you are not a supporter of RollKur and if you are not training with this method, why you are trying to stop people who are trying to put a stop to that method? You are giving more power to the supporters and to followers of RollKur by doing that.
__________________

"followers of rollkur"?:eek:

Someone has truly gone off the rails on the crazy train.

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 05:49 PM
So, if you are saying that "DEEP" is what Tineke is describing in her book, then exactly what is "ROLLKUR"?

No, I'm saying that Tineke seems to present Rollkur as Deep method in her book. And that is quite confusing since they are 2 different methods.

The excuse that smart and educated people who are capable to give "invisible" 1/2 an inch aids to their horses > can't come to the agreement on where is the line between Rollkur and Deep = is quite a lame excuse.

We can talk about timing: no more than 30-60 seconds of prolonged forced closed neck.

We can talk about distance and proximity of the nose to the chest: about 1 foot distance should be percent between the chest of the horse and the nose of the horse.

We can talk about range/angle of the horse's head compare to the ground.

We already have similar rule that the nose of the horse should be slightly above the vertical. Similar rule can be clearly put regarding the nose of the horse behind the vertical.

I don't know the specifics, it should be discussed and come to the golden middle, but I strongly believe that it is about time now that USEF needs to address that at their shows. Especially if people (judges?) are having a hard time differentiating between SP training and Anky’s training.

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:00 PM
This is what some people defending:
This is RollKur:

http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/upload/20076/images/Rollkur.jpg
http://dressage.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/rollkur3.jpg
http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/207239.jpg
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/schrijer/366_6704.jpg
http://gachristi.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/rollkur.jpg
http://www.eurodressage.com/images/news_hap_rollkur-sali.jpg
http://www.cordequestrian.net/images/Rollkur1.jpg
http://epona.tv/uploads/pics/nyhed_cae71b.jpg
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/how/nijmegen_lvl.gif
http://weblog.dierenbescherming.nl/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/rollkur.jpg
http://www.hundkatzpferd.at/rollkur1.jpg
http://www.equichannel.cz/data/imgs/00022593l.gif
http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre/News/PublishingImages/D0148.jpg
http://www.eurodressage.com/images/news_dr_power.jpg
http://www.nobynas.se/roll.jpg
http://www.cheval-savoir.com/images/5/roll-kur-1.jpg
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/how/1020109.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zTe7JGS3eRE/SAb6ObeKayI/AAAAAAAAAJo/vZnAfx0vxos/s1600-h/tn_img893.jpg
http://cincily.cz/rollkur/how/st_georg_nicole.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k&feature=player_embedded

This is what Beasmom, Egontoast, etc are trying to hush and avoid talking about, avoid bringing those photos up, and attacking people who do.

If you do not support that, if you do not ride/train like that, why do you try so hard to hush it out?

ThreeFigs
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:05 PM
No one's "defending" it. They're just not on board with your hysteria. Seriously, DA, go out and get some fresh air!

mbm
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:35 PM
Beasmom..... an interesting thing i have learned about posting on BBs (or any kind of argument)....

the more someone has to defend their position the more "loud" they will get. Especially if they are being attacked from many sides or if they are being character assasinated.

so... what that means is someone can post a normal comment and yet it can turn into a very emotional debate - and the poster can seem much more "hysterical" as you say than they really are - just because they are having to defend themselves from many angles and from personal attacks.

in other words.... if you (and others not to be named that are on ignore) would stop attacking people, the topics would not get so heated. But i get the idea that folks like to attack and they like to see the tumult that is the result.

(btw Beasmom... you have posted 9 times on this thread alone - so i think you are a honorary member of "Rollkurmaniacs"!!!) <--- gentle teasing

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:36 PM
No one's "defending" it. They're just not on board with your hysteria. Seriously, DA, go out and get some fresh air!They? "They" can answer for themselves. You answer for yourself. And from where I'm sitting, you are trying very hard to shut ANYBODY who questions RollKur.

Seriously, I'm not twisting your arm to read or even open any Rollkur threads; it seems that you have a desire continually dismiss any concerns about Rollkur. Yet, I know more people who want to put an end to RollKur, including judges. Than people who support rollKur and who want to hush it out, close their eyes, ears, and mouths.

After a video of Blue Tongue I think it is very clear that we need more control over the horse's welfare during the warm-up at the shows.

mbm
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:39 PM
DA, life is better with certain folks on "ignore" - try it.... it makes for a much more peaceful COTH.

:)

egontoast
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:49 PM
Yes, if you can't bear for anyone to have an opinion that is not in line with your own and if you can't handle any kind of debate without flying off the handle then, yes, please do use the ignore function.:)

Your life will be better and you will also be doing a large favour to the objects of your diatribes.:cool:

asb_own_me
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:58 PM
I think RK is just fine, as long as you've de-horned your Unicorn.

RK on a Unicorn with its horn intact is just inviting terrible rollover accidents.

ROFLMAO!!!

But seriously.....de-horning my unicorn? So it's a zerocorn? Or a noncorn? YOU'RE SO ABUSIVE! How dare you suggest I MUTILATE my gold butterfly pooping Roll-Korn?

:lol:

bort84
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:22 PM
The excuse that smart and educated people who are capable to give "invisible" 1/2 an inch aids to their horses > can't come to the agreement on where is the line between Rollkur and Deep = is quite a lame excuse.

I must say, I tend to agree with this.

My biggest problem with rollkur is not that it's abuse - I'm not sure it is severe enough to fall into that category, though "abuse" as the FEI describes it could potentially encompass rollkur (it's a very vague and sweeping description).

My biggest problem with rollkur is that it is as opposite to dressage as draw reins are. I don't consider Anky and the others that use rollkur as bad (most of them are really quite excellent) or abusive horse trainers. I think part of the reason they can use rollkur and still turnout such spectacular horses is that they are excellent trainers. I think they've just been so close to the rollkur issue that they've gotten used to seeing it and using it. Very prominent people have presented it as okay in their world, and they've gotten good results, so they continue to use it.

This is why we need the public to continue to voice their opinions that the method is "unsavory" or "harsh" when compared to the end goal of dressage without it turning into a witch hunt. Anky and the like are probably actually really good people and trainers that really love their horses, so enough with that.

However, I think that many of these trainers that use rollkur would have initially been very turned off by the appearance of this method if they'd first seen it done by someone of less renown than themselves... Rollkur is a shortcut just like all those other "gimmicks" and "gadgets" that the vast majority of dressage people like to denounce. Perhaps useful in a rare case but generally a tool to be left in the shed unless all else fails - certainly not something that should be necessary at a show. I don't need scientific studies to know that I don't like this method being used in dressage training, just like I haven't needed studies to show me that certain trainers I've worked with or watched work in the past are not quite the horse people they claim to be.

While I agree that it's difficult to put a specific definition on what is rollkur and what is just deep in a way that will please the masses, I don't think it's hard for most horse people to "know it when they see it." There are many methods in other disciplines that aren't outright illegal but that are frowned upon to the point that you don't see them practiced at shows. That's where rollkur belongs (again, I liken it to the horror most dressage folks would show if someone trotted into the warm up in draw reins, though they actually are illegal...) Obviously I'd prefer it not be used behind closed doors either, but if the public can make it known that it's a method that is really inappropriate in the context of dressage, we will start to see less of it out in the open and eventually less of it at home as well. That's enough for me for now until the FEI can have continued intelligent discussions about the issue.

I agree that emotion needs to be left out of this, it only weakens the arguments of both sides. However, I don't think it's just the very vocal anti-RK people that are guilty of this.

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:24 PM
DA, life is better with certain folks on "ignore" - try it.... it makes for a much more peaceful COTH.
:)

Yes, they seems to follow around to every post and thread to just derail it and inject their own agendas.

slc2
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:32 PM
If you are so sure about your views, why does one or two people ridiculing you or the thread, or what is more usual, simply disagreeing with you, create this type of reaction?

Coreene
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:34 PM
Again: if you're going to bitch about it, would you at least please spell it correctly? It is "rollkur." Not "Roll kur," not "RollKur," etc. If it is too difficult, "hyperflexion" also works (note that it, too, is a single word). Thank you. Have a nice day.

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:42 PM
Ok, allow me to rephrase my questions:

Do you practice rollkur?
Where did you learn rollkur?
How did you learn rollkur?
What did rollkur do for your horses?

May be a correct spelling will bring some useful and insightful answers from people who actually support, ride, train, teach rollkur?

If you do not support that, if you do not ride/train like that, why do you try so hard to hush it out?

If you are indifferent to the subject of rollkur, why do you bother posting on this thread?

B/c I'm not really interested in reading responses from people who can't even pick a side pro or against, or from people who are just “sick” of hearing about rollkur, since that what I consider bitching with no results.

Dressage Art
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:57 PM
Very prominent people have presented it as okay in their world, and they've gotten good results, so they continue to use it.

This is why we need the public to continue to voice their opinions that the method is "unsavory" or "harsh" when compared to the end goal of dressage without it turning into a witch hunt. Anky and the like are probably actually really good people and trainers that really love their horses, so enough with that.

...
Rollkur is a shortcut just like all those other "gimmicks" and "gadgets" that the vast majority of dressage people like to denounce.

...

I agree that emotion needs to be left out of this, it only weakens the arguments of both sides. However, I don't think it's just the very vocal anti-RK people that are guilty of this.

I agree. My biggest concern is that rollkur is gaining popularity and it can be seen in the wrong hands now, such as blue tongue. This is a very clear call of denouncing it and not allowing it to be practiced and advertised during the legal shows and competitions.

Even posters who claim not to practice rollkur, but who want to hush the conversations about rollkur = even they (to put in their own words) compare it to the "wife beating".

This is like asking, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Pffffft.

BaroquePony
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:44 PM
Posted by Beasmom:

RK on a Unicorn with its horn intact is just inviting terrible rollover accidents.

That's a rotational fall, you need to be over in the eventer threads :lol:

ThreeFigs
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:45 AM
DA, I fear you do not read for comprehension. I never equated Rollkur with wife-beating.

The question, "When did you stop beating your wife?" is an oft-repeated example of a question that cannot be answered by anyone without raising suspicions of guilt or lying. The question assumes the person asked HAS beaten his wife at some time. Guilt is implied before the question is even answered.

The question is a trap, as was your opening post, although yours is a very clumsy trap. No one's stupid enough to fall for it. There are a few folks here ready to take you to task for such baiting. I believe you try to imply that those who do not ride the anti-Rollkur train with you are therefore guilty of practicing Rollkur. At the very least, their zeal to ban Rollkur does not match your own, therefore they are wrong. Wrong, I tell you!

That's quite a jump in logic. This discussion isn't going the way you wanted it to, and you're upset. Perhaps rethink your approach; I don't know. I'm the last person you'd take advice from. All I can tell you is, shrill approaches, no matter what the subject is, gets tiresome.

And that is why (for the last time) I do what I can within my realm of influence to promote correct riding. If that doesn't suit you, DA, it's not my problem. It's your problem, allowing this discussion to get under your skin so.

You started this train down the tracks. Is it time to pull it over to the next siding?

Sabine
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:56 AM
amazed that this is still going...you are obviously not reading the worthwhile books, watching the worthwhile riders and experimenting while riding with awareness and responsibility...
When this topic was posted I was thinking it would die off quickly in like 4-5 posts.
The fact that it hasn't leads me to believe that COTH serves a whole different purpose altogether...relieving female frustrations of all sorts...mainly to do with lack of ability to execute, perceived injustice, misdirected need to save the world and such.

Nothing to do with riding better, ....sadly!

Zevida
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:05 AM
The question, "When did you stop beating your wife?" is an oft-repeated example of a question that cannot be answered by anyone without raising suspicions of guilt or lying. The question assumes the person asked HAS beaten his wife at some time. Guilt is implied before the question is even answered.

The question is a trap, as was your opening post, although yours is a very clumsy trap.

Give me a break. The oft-used example you site bears no resemblance whatsoever to the question that DA posed. As you say, the "beating your wife" example assumes guilt and whichever way you answer you are being trapped into admitting guilt.

DA asked a simple yes or no question. I have zero problems answer: No, I do not practice rollkur or hyperflexion. There is nothing trappy about it. Those whose answer would be yes might not want to answer because they don't want to get dragged into a mud slinging contest, but the question is absolutely a fair one.

Now if DA had asked "How long have you been using rollkur", then you'd have an argument about a trappy question.

Karoline
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:18 AM
There are no worthwhile books, and frankly why should there be when we are told again and again that the riders qualified to use this technique can be counted on the fingers of one hand. At least that was the original position.

Personally you cannot convince me that rollkur is beneficial to the body of the horse and I do not like the horses it produces. And this the greater divide. Some believe the horses have never moved better, and some believe that they look like standardbred on crack.

The problem for horses is this. We have been looking at images of horses with their forehead parrallel to the ground, chin on lower chest, eyes by their knees for almost what now? A decade? And it has trickled down in the postures that have become acceptable to dressage rider's eyes, at home. I know some claim they see no roll necked where they are but I do in warmup and in lessons. Not as extreme as Anky but postures and outlines that would never been acceptable 10 years ago.

When a top rider write they think riding btv should not be penalized in tests or when you find out that in some top barns every single horse is ridden in draw reins - its standard training rather then a tool to fix a problem - you have to ask yourself what has happened to the one riding sport that was supposed to be about listening, teaching, and partnering with your horse.

Obviously I dont practice it and in fact work toward getting the research that will make it possible to outlaw it since the humane argument is obviously enough for the FEI.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 26, 2010, 03:12 AM
I love American women!And I think you would love me if we could only meet!

Bluey
Jan. 26, 2010, 07:50 AM
There are no worthwhile books, and frankly why should there be when we are told again and again that the riders qualified to use this technique can be counted on the fingers of one hand. At least that was the original position.

Personally you cannot convince me that rollkur is beneficial to the body of the horse and I do not like the horses it produces. And this the greater divide. Some believe the horses have never moved better, and some believe that they look like standardbred on crack.

The problem for horses is this. We have been looking at images of horses with their forehead parrallel to the ground, chin on lower chest, eyes by their knees for almost what now? A decade? And it has trickled down in the postures that have become acceptable to dressage rider's eyes, at home. I know some claim they see no roll necked where they are but I do in warmup and in lessons. Not as extreme as Anky but postures and outlines that would never been acceptable 10 years ago.

When a top rider write they think riding btv should not be penalized in tests or when you find out that in some top barns every single horse is ridden in draw reins - its standard training rather then a tool to fix a problem - you have to ask yourself what has happened to the one riding sport that was supposed to be about listening, teaching, and partnering with your horse.

Obviously I dont practice it and in fact work toward getting the research that will make it possible to outlaw it since the humane argument is obviously enough for the FEI.

As a similar parallel, 40 years ago some riders started jumping like a constipated duck, butt in the air, hanging on the horse's neck, no direct line from the hand to the horse's mouth.

That looked terrible, like people about to topple off, if the horse did other than jump automatically, because those riders were sure not in control or efficient on any other than a push button horse.

Eventually all got used to riding like that and for those past 40 years that laughable way of riding, called "crest release", is what wins in the USA hunter classes, COTH the magazine and it's pictures be my witness.:lol:

To me, that is as bad as RK are to some and I have had to watch it for all these years, wincing every time.

Yes, what we see is in the eye of the beholder, the horses are not always better just because it is the approved way.

I see those horses up in the bridle, fighting hands, just as objectionable, if not more, than those that RK is said to have made so much more soft by overbending judiciously in training.

Do I like the extremes or fads? Of course not, but I am not going to tell those doing it and being successful how to play the game, not unless I was at their level an KNEW what I was talking about.
Practically all here are not, just as I am not, we are armchair quarterbacks at best.

RK as a training technique, I am not sure it is any worse than any one other way of training out there, not enough for this witch hunt of riders that may use and the extreme of claiming the high ethical ground and calling RK abuse and wanting to ban it.

If you really think so, think how many people just watching someone ON a horse, doing whatever people do on them, already considers that abusive and want to abolish horseback riding on principle.

While there are some basic tenents to how we handle horses properly, everyone will agree that beating a horse is abuse, judging what others do sometimes is, as I say, in the eye of the beholder.

It is good to question all we do in life, but please be reasonable.
It is not good to use our questions to bash others over the head, call them names and, if you really think about what you are doing, ruining reputations of those people that have and are making dressage what it is.:no:
A dose of humble is what I would suggest for those here that are taking this controversy a little too far.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 26, 2010, 11:29 AM
DRR = Theo?

Unprovoked92
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:12 PM
I don't see how these threads really get anything accomplished. I would sign a petition to ban rollkur in the warm up ring, but I honestly don't know what it would help. I feel like the best way to stop rollkur from being so prominent is to stop REWARDING it in the SHOW RING. I feel that the dressage JUDGES (DA, I've gathered you are one, are you sharing these discussions with your judge buddies or saving them just for us?) I don't think it is always obvious that a horse has been trained in rollkur, but sometimes (to me anyway) clues are apparent.

Look at what the judges have done for WP. They reward what they want to see. They rewarded "peanut rollers" and thats what was in the show ring. They rewarded that crippled looking lopers, and thats what was in the show ring. People compete/train to win (any one who says otherwise is lying, while its not everything, why bother if you aren't trying to win) so reward the horses with correct training, sympathetic, in-tune riders who ride the hind end to the front end, poll high with soft hands and happy horses.

Until the Dressage Judges step up to the plate and say "No, this isn't correct at this level" and stop rewarding rollkuritis in the show ring, we are unfortunately stuck with it.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:24 PM
But if the horse is not shown in a rollkur position, how do the judges KNOW?

By the rules, at least, they are supposed to judge what is presented in front of them, not what's gone on in the warm-up. I understand in reality, we all "know" who schools a certain way.

While you may be able to monitor what happens in a schooling ring, you have little control over what happens back home. Unless the abuse is egregious, as it was with that woman who was caught on tape by a groom, it does not come to light.

I think the problem is, to one ring steward, it looks like RK, to another, just a little overbent. A ban on RK will be hard to enforce because in difference of perception.

Dressage Art
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:29 PM
DA, I've gathered you are oneNo, I'm not a judge, but I bet you gathered that from Egon's posts ;)?

Been a professional, successful artist for 30+ years already and my art website is in my signature if you would like to browse it.

Unprovoked92
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:32 PM
But there are trends in the show ring that are making it possible for horses to win when IMO they aren't 100% correct. There seems to be a trend toward horses getting ridiculously high score that don't seem to be using there hind ends properly. Horses winning medels when they blow up during a movement of a test (and still scoring a 6 on it). The judges should judge only whats in front of them, but they need to reward the trends they want to see. Like I said with WP, the judges don't place them based on what they see in the warm up ring, its whats in front of them. Just because the horse isn't being ridden in rollkur in the show ring doesn't mean there aren't signs that something isn't right.

No, I do not feel like the judges should punish riders if they think they train in rollkur, but they should punish riders who's horses are stiff in the mouth, shoulders and neck, are not tracking up properly for the level they are competing in and are behind the verticle.

Moderator 1
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:35 PM
We've removed a number of off-topic, personal and/or inflammatory posts to keep this thread on topic. It's fine to disagree, but the personal digs back and forth are inappropriate and don't contribute to the discussion.

Thanks,
Mod 1

Unprovoked92
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:37 PM
Sorry, DA....guess I should get my facts straight! But it doesn't change the fact that I feel like the judges need to take a stand and change the way they score and base it on the horse in front of them, not the name/nationality or the..."oooo look at how faaancy that one is up front!"

nhwr
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:03 PM
I put a horse in training with someone who schooled with Anky and Sjef for about a year. History on the horse was I couldn't ride for a number of months so I left my horse with my (different) trainer who had no clue how to deal with a big strong and sensitive WB. She rode the horse in draw reins for months and I thought the horse was ruined. In desperation, I took horse to the "Rolkurista". Total turn around for the horse, it went from barely able to do 1st level back to working 3rd in about 4 months, totally changed (correct) musculature. Horse was not abused, loved the rolkurista trainer, would call to him from the stall whenever he waked by.

I didn't (don't) ride that way. But I wouldn't hesitate to put another horse in training with the rolkurista.

ridgeback
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:05 PM
The problem with RK is it is abuse in 90% + hands but I don't think it is with an Anky, Gal, Hans etc etc.

[edit]

mp
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:11 PM
No, I'm not a judge, but I bet you gathered that from Egon's posts ;)?

More likely from your numerous posts here on being an "L" judge graduate. With distinction.

bort84
Jan. 26, 2010, 05:58 PM
I put a horse in training with someone who schooled with Anky and Sjef for about a year. History on the horse was I couldn't ride for a number of months so I left my horse with my (different) trainer who had no clue how to deal with a big strong and sensitive WB. She rode the horse in draw reins for months and I thought the horse was ruined. In desperation, I took horse to the "Rolkurista". Total turn around for the horse, it went from barely able to do 1st level back to working 3rd in about 4 months, totally changed (correct) musculature. Horse was not abused, loved the rolkurista trainer, would call to him from the stall whenever he waked by.

I didn't (don't) ride that way. But I wouldn't hesitate to put another horse in training with the rolkurista.

An excellent support to my theory that very very few top riders who use rollkur are poor trainers and horse abusers. They are obviously extremely talented horsemen who happen to use one technique I don't agree with at all. There's a reason they still turnout top horses: they are excellent trainers. However, I think most of them would be better served by using a different method than rollkur in instances where they feel rollkur is necessary. They have the talent to work without rollkur, and that's what makes me scratch my head.

mbm
Jan. 26, 2010, 06:24 PM
I Agree that the way to "ban" rollkur is to change what the judges feel needs to win. How we are going to accomplish that i have no clue

The problem is that what is winning right now sells.... and at this point that is what seems to matter most.

There is, BTW a petition online. if you want I can find the link for you.

I also agree with Bort - the top trainers using rollkur are excellent riders.... they would be winning most likely if they didnt use rollkur - but rollkur produces what wins (why else use it?)

I totally believe the conversation about Rollkur needs to step away from the word "abuse" and focus more on what do we want from a top level horse? Is what is winning *really* all that and a bag of chips? Does it *really* match the rules?

To me it comes down to we have banned draw reins (and they are frowned on in general) but rollkur is just riding with draw reins without the extra set of reins. *that* is what we should focus on.

and, finally - I am not sure what witch hunt people talk about. in general, while these topics get heated - the people be attacked are the posters and not the top riders.

Except of course Scandics rider - he was vilified, but he did make a big error and i am sure he got spanked hard by Sjef et al for that PR disaster.

egontoast
Jan. 26, 2010, 06:49 PM
I put a horse in training with someone who schooled with Anky and Sjef for about a year. History on the horse was I couldn't ride for a number of months so I left my horse with my (different) trainer who had no clue how to deal with a big strong and sensitive WB. She rode the horse in draw reins for months and I thought the horse was ruined. In desperation, I took horse to the "Rolkurista". Total turn around for the horse, it went from barely able to do 1st level back to working 3rd in about 4 months, totally changed (correct) musculature. Horse was not abused, loved the rolkurista trainer, would call to him from the stall whenever he waked by.

I didn't (don't) ride that way. But I wouldn't hesitate to put another horse in training with the rolkurista.

Thanks for adding some much needed balance to the discussion.

ridgeback
Jan. 26, 2010, 07:04 PM
Thanks for adding some much needed balance to the discussion.

How is this balance it's just an opinion? :no:

egontoast
Jan. 26, 2010, 07:32 PM
Yes, what we see is in the eye of the beholder, the horses are not always better just because it is the approved way.

I see those horses up in the bridle, fighting hands, just as objectionable, if not more, than those that RK is said to have made so much more soft by overbending judiciously in training.

Do I like the extremes or fads? Of course not, but I am not going to tell those doing it and being successful how to play the game, not unless I was at their level an KNEW what I was talking about.
Practically all here are not, just as I am not, we are armchair quarterbacks at best.

RK as a training technique, I am not sure it is any worse than any one other way of training out there, not enough for this witch hunt of riders that may use and the extreme of claiming the high ethical ground and calling RK abuse and wanting to ban it.

If you really think so, think how many people just watching someone ON a horse, doing whatever people do on them, already considers that abusive and want to abolish horseback riding on principle.

While there are some basic tenents to how we handle horses properly, everyone will agree that beating a horse is abuse, judging what others do sometimes is, as I say, in the eye of the beholder.

It is good to question all we do in life, but please be reasonable.
It is not good to use our questions to bash others over the head, call them names and, if you really think about what you are doing, ruining reputations of those people that have and are making dressage what it is.:no:
A dose of humble is what I would suggest for those here that are taking this controversy a little too far.

Good thoughtful post, Bluey.

Dressage Art
Jan. 26, 2010, 09:58 PM
To me it comes down to we have banned draw reins (and they are frowned on in general) but rollkur is just riding with draw reins without the extra set of reins. *that* is what we should focus on.
Yes and I think that Rollkur will be banned at the shows eventually just like draw reins and twisted bits, but it will always be practiced in some barns. and that's fine with me, riders can make their own choices in their privet barns.

The true concern is not skillful riders who know how to use it, but the copycats who don't know how/where to learn it, but they see that it wins at public shows, so they might just go for it. And that will result in “the razor in the monkey’s hands” - as Karl Mikolka (SRS) said once about draw reins in unskilled hands.

Dressage Art
Jan. 26, 2010, 10:03 PM
For people who ride/train rollkur, I'm wondering if it'll be a big deal not to warm up in rollkur? Or they will try to fight this proposition to ban rollkur in the warm-up ring?

Is this "reasonable" proposition for rollkur folks?

nhwr
Jan. 26, 2010, 11:24 PM
For people who ride/train rollkur, I'm wondering if it'll be a big deal not to warm up in rollkur? Or they will try to fight this proposition to ban rollkur in the warm-up ring?First you have to define what "rolkur" is. IMO, most people don't really know.

But to answer your question on a more basic level, I found it to be a conditionig technique rather than a riding technique. To explain; my trainer used it to work with my horse. As said horse developed, it became much easier for me to ride in a conventional manner.

Still I rode the horse deep to warm up at shows. But then I have used this as a tool for sensitive horses in stressful environments for a long time (started doing it after reading von Zeigner) but just riding deep isn't "rolkur".

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 26, 2010, 11:59 PM
Yes.I do wonder about my humble post being removed!I am NOT this Theo.What has he done to you?BTW.I am Don Raphaelo Rollkurista and I do like to gently,carefully,and gradually over time,relax my horses jaw and neck until I can ride him in any number of REASONABLE postures.It is really about lowering the horses neck while retaining the same approx. degree of flexion that horse would go in at the vertical at its current level of training.I.E. Much more flexion in the G.P. horse than a horse working at A or L.I repeat.It is about relaxing the horses into lower stretched positions or postures if you will.Not PULLING them down and in!If a horse in G.P. frame is ask to hold that frame and lower his neck to somewhere close to a down and forward angle it will appear as though he was pulled there.At least to 2 of you.It is about a horse that is relaxed enough to really lower his neck while "maintaining the frame angle he had when he was up.So.To stay on topic and not be removed.I do ride what you call rollkur but I do not like that word.I prefer LDR.After that like all else in horsemanship the rest,degree,duration,where,when,why,and for how long is up to the good judgement or lack thereof of the rider.I have witnessed far,far more mouth,spur,whip,and exhaustion abuse by professionals riding at the vertical in the name of classical position than by my fellow rollkuristas by tenfold!In closing.Anyone who puts a horse into the Raminer or "on the bit" classical posture by pulling it in is riding badly.Anyone who deepens a horse,especially if it is to the degree of hyperflexion by pulling it in is riding badly!So!In closing.I would still like to have dinner and wine.Ciao, Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

Coppers mom
Jan. 27, 2010, 01:24 AM
Ok, allow me to rephrase my questions:

Do you practice rollkur?
Personally, on a regular basis, no.
Where did you learn rollkur?
At a clinic with a monster of a horse who desperately needed a sensitive, caring rider after years of what actually is abusive riding. Going into the canter, he would literally flip his lid because he was so used to being punished for literally every single move he made. And that overreaction was after he'd gotten better. Before, they were going to put him down because you couldn't even get on him.
How did you learn rollkur?
Simple really, just gradually asking for more and more flexion. There's no force involved, contrary to popular belief.
What did rollkur do for your horses?
With this particular horse, it took out everything and gave him a "happy place", which he needed. It kept his head down, which prevented the rearing he was so quick to do because of the ripping the gears out into rein back and then beating him to go forward to "create impulsion" his former trainer was so fond of. Once he was actually able to do a couple transitions without me being awful to him, he relaxed and learned that he could trust me to allow him to do what I was asking him to do. It put him on the forehand, and he wasn't exactly using his hind end, but it did allow him to realize that he could indeed change gaits without getting in trouble. Once we got past the trust issues, I was able to focus on building him up correctly, and never had to put him deep again.


If you are indifferent to the subject of rollkur, why do you bother posting on this thread?
Because I hope that one day reason, rather than emotion, will prevail.

B/c I'm not really interested in reading responses from people who can't even pick a side pro or against, or from people who are just “sick” of hearing about rollkur, since that what I consider bitching with no results.
I have to be honest, you're not coming off as interested in reading anything other than "OMG RK is sooooo awful!!!!!!!". You point the finger at others as being pro-RK when they've repeatedly stated that they either don't agree with it, or don't agree with it, but also realize it's not the end of the world.


I, personally, am not a fan of RK being used as it has been. I don't think that scurrying around for multiple laps of the arena is doing any good. I know it's supposed to be about stretching, but have you ever seen any other athlete stretch the same muscle for more than a minute? I don't think so. At that point, you're just putting the horse on the forehand and shooting the energy out the back. You also often end up with a very "rubbery" horse, which is a PITA to deal with. I find that these horses are good at "faking" a shoulder in, for example, by just moving their neck around but not really yielding the shoulder as they're supposed to.

The way it's being used now is, IMO, to keep the head down, similar to how I used it. But, I think that they should be beyond the point that I was and able to keep the horse soft and supple without such extreme measures by the time they get to the FEI level. And I definitely don't think it's doing any good when used for more than a few moments.

Dressage Art
Jan. 27, 2010, 02:11 AM
I have to be honest, you're not coming off as interested in reading anything other than "OMG RK is sooooo awful!!!!!!!".

I would be interested to hear why you choose to ride that horse in Rollkur, why not just in Deep? Why Deep wasn't enough? Why did you have to go that extra foot of curling down? Does it really make such a difference?

PS: Don Raphaelo Rollkurista, that question is also for you as well.

Moderator 1
Jan. 27, 2010, 09:42 AM
We again removed some off-topic posts to keep the thread on the main topic, per our previous reminder. If you have a question about the moderation, please contact us directly.

Also, our newest contributor on this thread does not appear to be a previously banned user.

Thanks,
Mod 1

Kaeleer
Jan. 27, 2010, 11:48 AM
Also, our newest contributor on this thread does not appear to be a previously banned user.



Why do I have the opening bars of Raspberry Beret sounding in my head?

Coppers mom
Jan. 27, 2010, 02:08 PM
I would be interested to hear why you choose to ride that horse in Rollkur, why not just in Deep? Why Deep wasn't enough? Why did you have to go that extra foot of curling down? Does it really make such a difference?

PS: Don Raphaelo Rollkurista, that question is also for you as well.

Because that's what worked with him. Horses are individuals, and we are the ones who have to adjust and tailor our training to them. It made a difference for him, and I'm not egotistical enough to think that it's all about me and my personal convictions. The horse is the one that matters, not my dislike for shoes, spurs, whatever.

And seriously, quit being so inflammatory. "Extra foot of curling down" is just being silly. There is a huge difference between what is commonly considered "Deep", and the photos of horses with their chins to their chest, and one can actually work within those perameters without going into extreme positions. Riding more than deep doesn't automatically mean that the chin is touching the chest, or just inches away from doing so, so please stop trying to insinuate that and realize that there are multiple degrees in everything when it comes to horses.

mp
Jan. 27, 2010, 04:06 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful posts, Coopersmom.

My horses (arabs!) are all rubber-necked, wiggle worms to begin with, so I can't imagine that roll-kur or even deep would ever be useful with them. But you explained very clearly (to me, anyway) why someone might need those tools for a particular kind of horse. As you pointed out, training is finding out what works well for each individual horse. Or as a friend says, you gotta ride the horse you have.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 27, 2010, 04:11 PM
I will say this only one time more.If you curl the head down you are doing it wrong regardless of degree.A GP horse shown in "presentation" posture will have his chin much closer to his throatline than the same horse when he was at 4 yrs.That horse which has lowered his neck to the point where the 6th and 7th cervical vertibae begin to stretch out or down,in the same manner as down and forward,but with the same angle between the chin and throat will look to you as though curled.It is not pulled in,it is stretched,and in a relaxed manner.If it is not, it is not being done well.Please consider making arch villains out of all bad riders,not LDR riders. If you must champion a cause perhaps,as has been pointed out in the past,try to stop the racing of horses at 2 yrs. For those who have ask for more information,on youtube there are many interviews,seminars,and clinics by modern LDR riders and their mentors to inform yourself with.I suggest the excellent work of Van Grunsven,Werth,and Hester to begin with.Hester's class where he rides with a headset and speaks of what he is doing and why he is doing it is excellent and easily found on youtube.One more point.I might spend a day with my camera around any busy dressage stall and at the end of the day have many bad photos of many great riders no matter which style they make practice of.Furthermore.LDR horses should have their posture changed regularly.Each posture if performed in relaxation will evole to a slightly or greatly different gymnastic effect.This way the entire horse is gymnastically developed in a manner that is more complete than with the older schools.All of the previous masters works are valued and included in the modern school.Van Grunsven has said this clearly in many interviews.Consider these points.If I was moving a horse from a medium LDR frame toward hyperflexion and I sensed dismay or discomfort in the horse I would stop there and work towards increased flexion another day when the horse was more prepared.You have ask me to explain myself and now I have.Please,please be more peaceful,ride well,enjoy life!And perhaps,ask me to have dinner and some wine! Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

caddym
Jan. 27, 2010, 04:24 PM
So Don,

Would you have dinner and lots of wine with me?

Dressage Art
Jan. 27, 2010, 04:54 PM
Consider these points.If I was moving a horse from a medium LDR frame toward hyperflexion and I sensed dismay or discomfort in the horse I would stop there and work towards increased flexion another day when the horse was more prepared.You have ask me to explain myself and now I have.Please,please be more peaceful,ride well,enjoy life!And perhaps,ask me to have dinner and some wine! Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

Thank you for your explanation. What I would love to hear is a more detailed explanation when deep is not enough for that particular horse? How do you decide that this particular horse will do even better with rollkur? To me, 99% of the rollkur reasoning sounds that could be achieved with just riding a Deep method. I do not understand why some horses need rollkur to achieve the same?

And I'd love to have a dinner with you and talk about RK to further understand it.

Be peaceful with ALL your horses, respect them, and enjoy riding them as well. (but some people in my opinion need a smack down for how they treat their horses! Aka "blue tongue" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4&feature=related )

mbm
Jan. 27, 2010, 04:55 PM
my question would be: what does rollkur provide that classical training does not?

egontoast
Jan. 27, 2010, 05:00 PM
Raph ( if I may call you that) I hope you don't mind but I added some spaces /paragraphs to your post because I'm sure I was not the only one having trouble with the wall of words. Cheers! :)




I will say this only one time more. If you curl the head down you are doing it wrong regardless of degree. A GP horse shown in "presentation" posture will have his chin much closer to his throatline than the same horse when he was at 4 yrs.

That horse which has lowered his neck to the point where the 6th and 7th cervical vertibae begin to stretch out or down, in the same manner as down and forward, but with the same angle between the chin and throat will look to you as though curled. It is not pulled in, it is stretched, and in a relaxed manner. If it is not, it is not being done well.

Please consider making arch villains out of all bad riders, not LDR riders. If you must champion a cause perhaps, as has been pointed out in the past, try to stop the racing of horses at 2 yrs. For those who have ask for more information, on youtube there are many interviews, seminars, and clinics by modern LDR riders and their mentors to inform yourself with.

I suggest the excellent work of Van Grunsven, Werth, and Hester to begin with. Hester's class where he rides with a headset and speaks of what he is doing and why he is doing it is excellent and easily found on youtube.

One more point. I might spend a day with my camera around any busy dressage stall and at the end of the day have many bad photos of many great riders no matter which style they make practice of.

Furthermore. LDR horses should have their posture changed regularly. Each posture if performed in relaxation will evole to a slightly or greatly different gymnastic effect. This way the entire horse is gymnastically developed in a manner that is more complete than with the older schools. All of the previous masters works are valued and included in the modern school. Van Grunsven has said this clearly in many interviews.

Consider these points. If I was moving a horse from a medium LDR frame toward hyperflexion and I sensed dismay or discomfort in the horse I would stop there and work towards increased flexion another day when the horse was more prepared.

You have ask me to explain myself and now I have. Please, please be more peaceful, ride well,enjoy life! And perhaps, ask me to have dinner and some wine!

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

Bluey
Jan. 27, 2010, 05:13 PM
my question would be: what does rollkur provide that classical training does not?

I can answer by explaining that, going back to my example of gymnastics, you can see pictures and movies of 50+ years ago gymnastic competitions, "classically trained".
Then watch what gymnastic routines are today, the moves are way past any we could have attempted or thought about all those years ago.
Thru more exact and early training, we can do so much more with our bodies, if so desired.

Similarly with horses, especially in some disciplines, where the athleticism and movements possible are really way above what was possible when training was not as intensive, technical and complex as it is today.
That the bar keeps being raised doesn't mean classical training is being forgotten, but in some areas, we sure seem to be better than ever.
RK may or not be part of that, but for what I am hearing, it may have contributed in some of today's training.

mbm
Jan. 27, 2010, 08:18 PM
"Similarly with horses, especially in some disciplines, where the athleticism and movements possible are really way above what was possible when training was not as intensive,"

bluey - can you elaborate about this? aren't the upper level tests easier nowadays? and i dont think there are any new movements?

now, if you mean that the manner in which the movements are done is different, i will grant you that. but for example, what is shown nowadays as "collected trot" is more passage , and what is passage is- well... i am not sure ;) extended trot looks more like Spanish trot etc. and piaffe looks like passage on the spot.

so, i guess if the goal is exaggerated over done movements - perhaps rollkur is needed after all.

but i will stand by my opinion that is not needed to produce classical dressage. and even if we talk about limbering up etc - if you study the horse anatomically and bio mechanically it is hard to understand why rollkur is used....

for oh $hit moments - all bets are off - but to produce correct classical dressage ?

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 27, 2010, 09:35 PM
Bravo Bluey.You have said it all.It should be easy to understand when stated in that way!Bravo!

spotted mustang
Jan. 27, 2010, 09:39 PM
COTHers, do you practice, ride, train Rollkur method? Do you do it at home or at the warm ups or at clinics? For how many years?

tried it w. ex-BF. No good.

Coppers mom
Jan. 27, 2010, 11:01 PM
but i will stand by my opinion that is not needed to produce classical dressage. and even if we talk about limbering up etc - if you study the horse anatomically and bio mechanically it is hard to understand why rollkur is used....

for oh $hit moments - all bets are off - but to produce correct classical dressage ?
Rollkur (just the position, not the way it's being used in the warm-ups) has been proven to stretch parts of the neck and back. For a horse that is very stiff or tight, RK can help soften them up. Just like some people are just naturally not flexible (hello!) and need to stretch more and farther than someone who's naturally flexible. The hyperflexion can help those who aren't natuals stretch and limber up more than a less exaggerated position. Stretching for a few seconds will allow the horse to become a better athlete.

Or, like in my little whackadoo's case, it can serve to create relaxation, which is one of the first stops on the training scale. Some go on a hack, others do walk excercises, my guy liked to be put in a deep position. I would rather have my horse relaxed and listening to me before moving on to trying to make him sit and really work. You can't get anything done when they think they're going to die ;)

Or, you can use it to keep a horse from spooking. My mare (eventer) is pretty much convinced that anything she isn't galloping straight at is going to kill her. Putting her deep (no RK with her, just a little deep) limits her field of vision and gets her attention on me so that we can work on what we need to.

As far as producing classical dressage, wasn't it Baucher who had crazy pictures of flexing the horse's neck? Is that not just hyperflexion at the halt? Pretty much every book you read regarding classical dressage has pretty extreme flexions, the only difference is that it's done at a stand still. What changes when you start moving?

Then there are two ideas of classically teaching a horse to balance. One group thinks horses should be balanced at the halt, the other in motion.

Just food for thought. I don't think it's always black and white classical. I think it's a bit like the Bible; the farther back you go to try and find the exact way to do it, the more differences come up, so you just have to pick what works for you...

mbm
Jan. 28, 2010, 12:21 AM
Rollkur (just the position, not the way it's being used in the warm-ups) has been proven to stretch parts of the neck and back.

where has it been proven? what does it stretch and why would it be beneficial to stretch it in that manner? does this stretch cause issues elsewhere while it is being done?


For a horse that is very stiff or tight, RK can help soften them up.

how does taking the nose to chest help soften a stiff horse? if they are stiff taking them that extreme would be very detrimental.. if you are talking about just general stiffness , correct school figures used correctly will give you all you need. especially since in general a stiff neck/poll/jaw if an error of the hind end.


The hyperflexion can help those who aren't natuals stretch and limber up more than a less exaggerated position. Stretching for a few seconds will allow the horse to become a better athlete.

again, a very stiff horse or person should in no way be taken to such an extreme stretch! you would rip tendons and muscles. the stiffer the muscles the less you can do.... and the more you have to go in small increments....



As far as producing classical dressage, wasn't it Baucher who had crazy pictures of flexing the horse's neck? Is that not just hyperflexion at the halt? Pretty much every book you read regarding classical dressage has pretty extreme flexions, the only difference is that it's done at a stand still. What changes when you start moving?

Boucher is a very contrversial trainer. and no, his early years are not really considered "classical" - they are generlaly considered to be incorrect training... you can read this in many of the old school books.

as for "pretty much every book you read regarding classical dressage has pretty extreme flexions" i would ask you to prove that. please list the books, pages of the images etc.



Then there are two ideas of classically teaching a horse to balance. One group thinks horses should be balanced at the halt, the other in motion.

i dont think it is that simple.... i think it is balance through movement (german) and balance before movement (french) - both want correct balance with the horse in self carriage etc.


Just food for thought. I don't think it's always black and white classical. I think it's a bit like the Bible; the farther back you go to try and find the exact way to do it, the more differences come up, so you just have to pick what works for you...

i never said anything was black and white and i agree there are a lot of differences in classical dressage - however i think a few things can be said to be global: the idea that the horse should be in balance, that the horse should have pure gaits, self carriage, (eventually) collection. that hand riding is bad, and until recently that btv was not a good thing, that riding on the forehand is detrimental, etc etc.

lots of things are universal.

and finally, i will say that the more i learn the more i think the masters were geniuses and that we are very lucky that some of them wrote stuff down so we can learn from them.

and i also know that i only know what i know now, and probably stuff i think is correct now will be modified , clarified or perhaps refuted.

that is the cool thing about learning :) never a dull moment

Coppers mom
Jan. 28, 2010, 01:17 AM
mbm, there have been studies posted that show that the back/neck stretches when in this position. You've seen them, don't pretend you didn't ;)

They also say that it causes the horse to fall on the forehand and the hind end to shoot out behind them, which is why I personally don't like the way it's being used in warm-ups. A stretch shouldn't last that long. The way it's being used, it's causing the horse to work incorrectly and keep the head down (like how I used it).

And, again, I ask everyone to use a little reason. Of course the head isn't yanked down and cranked in to the point that the nose is touching the chest and muscles/tendons are being ripped and damaged. AGAIN, things must be done progressively and in moderation to be beneficial. AGAIN, there are varying degrees of deep, from just a tiny bit to chin-to-chest. Remember that you can positively work within those perameters without going to an extreme position.

Not to be cranky, but can we please use a little common sense and keep our heads on. Acting like everything is extreme; the horse is forced down, cranked in, chin touching the chest every single time with no stretching and no warm-up is ridiculous. I have repeatedly preached moderation, working within varying degrees, and using it as a stepping stone to establishing correct work. Quit pretending I'm saying that the horse should have his chin yanked to his chest the moment he comes from the stall and is ridden like that for 30 minutes at a time.

I'm perfectly open to discussion and don't mind answering questions, since I apparently am one of the only ones to say anything, but if it gets stupid, I really don't want to deal with it. Being so extreme and not actually reading makes it pretty clear that you (collective, not specific) aren't interested in discussion, you're interested in a "Gotcha" moment where you can condemn someone as some kind of jerk who yanks their horse's head down and doesn't care about their welfare. Read what's there, not what you want to hear in order to continue your rant against rollkur.

As an aside, mbm, could you explain to me the difference between "before movement", and "at the halt"/"through movement" and "In motion". I'd love to know if there's some way a horse can not be moving without standing still, or be moving without being in motion. It is that simple, you just re-wrote what I said. You're simply disagreeing to disagree here, methinks ;)

Sabine
Jan. 28, 2010, 02:17 AM
COTHers, do you practice, ride, train Rollkur method? Do you do it at home or at the warm ups or at clinics? For how many years?

for a long time...at home and everywhere..happily and without worry....so do my horses...hehe!

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 28, 2010, 02:27 AM
The lady MBM does not want to grow or understand LDR.Only to be known to the world as "the Knight who has slain the dragon."I have tried to help but I see it will be to no avail with some.There are good people here.On both sides of the debate!But I fear the greatest voice on the anti side is probably the least experianced in ACTUALLY developing dressage horses through the levels and her anger is really in not being able to do more.I have seen this with many well meaning aspirants that could not complete the task for six decades.I have ridden LDR for only one and one half.I was skeptical in the beggining but when shown the way more and more sure it is an elaboration of classical method not a replacement or even an alternative.This has been interest but to be quiet and peaceful with horses may be better for me.
Goodbye,
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
P.S.
Of course Baucher rode his horses in Raminer Outre[exagerated on the bit]while in motion.Reference the chapter titled Raminer Outre in Training the Saddle Horse by Kerbrecht.Yes this was in Baucher's second manner

egontoast
Jan. 28, 2010, 07:01 AM
I'm perfectly open to discussion and don't mind answering questions, since I apparently am one of the only ones to say anything, but if it gets stupid, I really don't want to deal with it. Being so extreme and not actually reading makes it pretty clear that you (collective, not specific) aren't interested in discussion, you're interested in a "Gotcha" moment where you can condemn someone as some kind of jerk who yanks their horse's head down and doesn't care about their welfare. Read what's there, not what you want to hear in order to continue your rant against rollkur.


Thanks for having the energy to continue with this discussion in the face of the above. I hope you will continue to post in order to provide balance to the discussion.

nhwr
Jan. 28, 2010, 12:21 PM
lol Don Juan, I have thought exactly that about rolkur - that is was Baucher with an accent from les Pays Bas. I mention it once (can't member if it was here or on TOB). You should have heard the wailing :eek:

To me this method is about more than riding deep. It taught my horse about balance in motion. Perhaps that can be done classically too (in fact I know it can) but in the case of my horse, who was not particularly flexible in the neck and pole to begin with, something more was needed. After 6 months in draw reins, it simple wasn't possibe for the average human to push 17 hds of incorrectly developed muscle through a locked poll to the bit.

As I said previously, I don't ride this way. I am a competent rider but I think to be effective in this manner, the rider must have excellent feel and timing to use the lateral flexion aspects of this methods.

I think of it like a double bridle or any type of bit, really. In the hands of a person that lacks finesse, all of these things can be used in a way that is improper. But that is an indictment of the rider, not the tool.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 28, 2010, 12:52 PM
Just stopped in to see how the catfight's going. I'm gratified to see some reason and balance has been injected into the discussion.

I agree with Copper's Mom and Don Juan R. and others that there are times and places to put a horse into a deeper position. Whether or not you call it "Rollkur" probably depends which side of the fence you're on.

ANYTHING taken to extremes is dangerous. One drink over dinner is a social lubricant. Too many Martinis lead to hangovers and worse. One slice of cheesecake is a treat. The whole cake is gluttony. A bit LDR can stretch and supple a horse. LDR done badly or excessively becomes "Rollkur".

Completely agree with DJR's assessment of the situation and opinions expressed here.

Dressage Art
Jan. 28, 2010, 03:01 PM
I was taught dressage in Russia = I know Baucher methods quite well. No, rollkur is not Baucher and even Baucher denounced some of his methods as well. Flexing horse's neck can be beneficial, Deep method can be beneficial, but if it's taken to extreme as rollkur = it is very dangerous in the hands of most.

And what I saw first hand of rollkur training doesn't not produce a happy horse but produces results similar to the PK blue tongue horse. And I would not call that a "balanced" or "happy" training at all.

But I would love to see a video of "correct" and "happy" rollkur training session.

Coppers mom
Jan. 28, 2010, 03:24 PM
So DA, what is RK to you?

To me, it's anything past the 45 degree mark behind the vertical. Above that is deep, below it is RK.

What is it to you? Is it only riding the chin to the chest? Because I think that if that's your only qualification, you're really narrowing it down too much to have a good discussion.

katarine
Jan. 28, 2010, 03:28 PM
All things in moderation. Including being open to being wrong. Now one wouldn't want to flip flop and heartily agree with all diverging opinions, as one would be have to be gullible and spineless to behave that way, and not have their own opinion and ideas as a foundation to work from at all. So that's not good. But one wouldn't want to be so rigid as to know in every fiber of their being, that they are right and have it all, all figured out, either. That wouldn't leave even the slimmest chance to learn something new, nothing to contemplate, it would not leave even the dimmest shade of a lightbulb moment. Asking a question that you feel there is only one perfect answer to- your own answer- is nothing more than self-gratifiying mental masturbation. No one wants to watch that, do they?

Beyond all that- I really want to take a sec to thank Coppers Mom for the very reasonable and thoughtful contributions you've made, as well as those by Raph the Rollkurista.

Dressage Art
Jan. 28, 2010, 03:43 PM
CM, may be we can have a "good discussion" during the dinner, but in the last week, I pretty much got convinced that it's impossible to have it here.

There are too much unquestionable statements, ridiculing, personal attacks, and very little of learning and compromise. I can type a page detailing what is the difference of BTV, Deep and RK in my eyes, and yet in the very next post somebody will accuse me going crazy if I'll see a slight, momentarily BTV = which is far away from the truth, but still impossible to convey, so it's really pointless.

egontoast
Jan. 28, 2010, 03:47 PM
There are too much unquestionable statements, ridiculing, personal attacks, and very little of learning and compromise

Please direct us to any of your posts which show any openess to compromise.

ridgeback
Jan. 28, 2010, 03:54 PM
Dressage art you are passionate but you are open. Don't worry about the bullies. If you were to watch Hans ride his mare I think you would see something you weren't opposed to it. You just haven't seen it yet. I do agree with you that in most hands it does not work and can make a horse mental and most of the people on this board have no business using it as a training tool. IMO

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 28, 2010, 04:00 PM
There are books by Baucher himself,his two personally trained protogeges,Favorote de Kerbrecht,and Alexis Le Hotte,and more recently Jean Claude Racinet that describe the excecution of Ramener Outre.In fact there IS an entire chapter dedicated to this in De Kerbrechts book Trainiing the Saddle Horse.It describes in clear and easy to understand language with drawings ,so there can be no misunderstanding,the act of using direct flexion of the jaw to gradually bring the exagerated Ramener to the point where the forehead of the horse comes close to facing the ground and the chin approaching but not coming all the way to the chest of the horse.This is a fact!I own these books and they all concur!And,it is universally accepted a fact that these great trainers and authers where dedicated protoges of Baucher himself.Not the trickledown Baucherism of Fillis which is the only kind ever introduced to Russia.DA.Your problem is that you do not have the FACTS.One cannot say for sure 150 years later that modern LDR trainers think they are practicing Baucherism,but it is for sure that Baucher practiced and taught Ramener Outre,HIS TERM,the act of extreme behind the vertical flexion,achieved through relaxation of the jaw.DA.You do yourself a disservice when you speculate in regards to some things that are in reality facts that can easily be proven.I would photocopy these pages and send them to you but I believe it would serve you better to go through the trouble and difficulty to attempt to find these old publications yourself.Read them yourself,and then you may respect what you have learned.Also,this is from Baucher's second manner the only part that Kerbrecht,Le Hotte,and Beudant practiced and wrote about.I can also suggest Hilda Nelson's excellent books on Baucher and Le Hotte.They are masterworks and give great insight into the lives and practices of these great men.What is you Americans say?Yes.Wise Up!

sid
Jan. 28, 2010, 04:05 PM
Do I practice Rollkur?

Yes --but only on myself sitting in front of the TV attempting to do Wai Lana yoga on PBS...;):lol:

Dressage Art
Jan. 28, 2010, 04:34 PM
I've read all of the Baucher-ism books as well as trained with his followers. There main difference with rollkur is that Baucher methods were MOMENTARILY flexions with flex and release not to make feel the horse to be trapped. Inviting the horse to flex is completely different than forcing the horse to flex and stay there. No, you can not cover rollkur by Boucher’s teachings. Rollkur took some of the Boucher’s concepts and took them in to the absolute extreme, not only practiced momentarily at halt laterally, but for a long periods of time at all gaits and mostly not even laterally, but longitudinally: absolute closure of the neck, nose to chest. That is quite different from fluid open neck flexions. Just like you can't say that SP trains in rollkur = b/c it is not rollkur, it is Deep method. There is a distinctive difference between those.

Absolute closure of the neck = that is rollkur and this is an extreme method that can be quite dangerous to the horse in most hands.

Dressage Art
Jan. 28, 2010, 04:39 PM
Dressage art you are passionate but you are open. Don't worry about the bullies. If you were to watch Hans ride his mare I think you would see something you weren't opposed to it. You just haven't seen it yet. I do agree with you that in most hands it does not work and can make a horse mental and most of the people on this board have no business using it as a training tool. IMO

Ditto.
Absolute closure of the neck, rollkur is an extreme method that can be quite dangerous to the horse in most hands. I see that my point of view is clearly outnumbered in web COTH BB. I'm blessed to be surrounded with overwhelming anti-rollkur supports in real life. And I just hope that I will never have to ride in the same warm up arena with PK "blue tongue" and likes.

I hope that horse lovers will be able to see past the cover of "rainbows" and "butterflies" of rollkur that "it's good for the horse" such PK "blue tongue". I really hope that this is NOT the future of the competitive dressage, since I love to show myself, but I will not want to show or volunteer in the shows with rollkur.

Coppers mom
Jan. 28, 2010, 04:43 PM
DA, the only one not willing to have a discussion is you. You're not interested in having a logical conversation, you wouldn't even answer a simple question in order for both parties to understand each other! You're only interested in whining about how bad RK is. You aren't reading what's there, you're reading what you want to be there. I have to say, I'm starting to question whether or not you even really know what you're talking about, or if you've just found a bandwagon to jump on. I'm going with the bandwagon on this one, since your posts don't show a single bit of an attempt at thinking, and are nothing but regurgitated propoganda.

This is pointless. I'm taking my ball and going home. Next time you wonder why every RK thread turns into a train wreck, and why no one wants to "have a discussion", it's because of crap like this.

Bluey
Jan. 28, 2010, 04:47 PM
CM, may be we can have a "good discussion" during the dinner, but in the last week, I pretty much got convinced that it's impossible to have it here.

There are too much unquestionable statements, ridiculing, personal attacks, and very little of learning and compromise. I can type a page detailing what is the difference of BTV, Deep and RK in my eyes, and yet in the very next post somebody will accuse me going crazy if I'll see a slight, momentarily BTV = which is far away from the truth, but still impossible to convey, so it's really pointless.

I will excuse some of what you posts as, being an artist, maybe displaying a little too much of the traditional artistic temperament on hand when posting so eloquently.:)

I also think that the facts as you describe there are not, as you accuse, describing those that don't agree with you, but that you may want to look in the mirror before pointing those fingers at others in how they comport themselves on COTH and how they describe RK and their interest in it.;)

Just sayin'.:no:

ridgeback
Jan. 28, 2010, 04:56 PM
Dressage Art I don't think your view is out numbered you just have to look at both petitions that were signed for or against. The FEI is having meetings on this because there are thousands screaming about this method. I don't think PK is a bad guy or rider and I think the video was not fairly done. I understand that the anti-rollkur people think it is a mentally abusive form of training and that is not something you can show as easily as physical abuse. I see both sides of this issue and it might not be as black and white as some think on both sides of this issue.

Bluey
Jan. 28, 2010, 05:04 PM
DA has been adamant, several times now, that she won't ride in the same warm up as someone using what she defines as RK.

That used to be called being a bad sport, when someone complained on what others were doing, just because they didn't like it, especially if they beat you.;)

What happened to riding the horse you are on and performing in front of a judge to get that opinion, not wanting to impose our ideas on any and all others out there?:(

Coppers mom
Jan. 28, 2010, 05:09 PM
Bluey, it's not about me and my horse, it's about everyone else. DUH :rolleyes:


:winkgrin:

ridgeback
Jan. 28, 2010, 05:10 PM
DA has been adamant, several times now, that she won't ride in the same warm up as someone using what she defines as RK.

That used to be called being a bad sport, when someone complained on what others were doing, just because they didn't like it, especially if they beat you.;)

What happened to riding the horse you are on and performing in front of a judge to get that opinion, not wanting to impose our ideas on any and all others out there?:(

Bluey you are missing the point this isn't just thinking I like this method better then this method thousands of anti rollkur believe it is mental and physical abuse. We've had this discussion with the meat industry. People get passionate about these things.

Maybe some should try and see it from dressage arts point of view because there are thousands like her and things just might change because of it. Instead of bullying her try and understand. jmo

BaroquePony
Jan. 28, 2010, 05:14 PM
Coppers mom,

I thought your post was excellent and you took the time to provide a very good explanation for your reasoning and it all seemed very humane and appropriate for the horse you were using it on.

I just want to say thank you for taking the time for such a well thought out post on this thread.

ETA: I still would not use riding Deep or Deeper on my own horses or any that I train.

Coppers mom
Jan. 28, 2010, 05:18 PM
Maybe some should try and see it from dressage arts point of view because there are thousands like her and things just might change because of it. Instead of bullying her try and understand. jmo

We did, she wouldn't have anything to do with it. *shrug*

Bluey
Jan. 28, 2010, 05:29 PM
---"Originally Posted by ridgeback
Maybe some should try and see it from dressage arts point of view because there are thousands like her and things just might change because of it. Instead of bullying her try and understand. jmo"---

I think that I am not the only one missing the points of this discussion.:no:.

As for being bullied, maybe those against RK and so vocal should think who is the bully here, when seen from those that are training and riding, minding their own business and a herd of cyber dressage computer riders, many that may not even ride horses or compete in dressage, come down on them to tell them they are abusing their horses and how to ride?:confused:

BaroquePony
Jan. 28, 2010, 05:34 PM
a herd of cyber dressage computer riders

Ugh. So if we use computers that means we can't be good horseman or riders?

ridgeback
Jan. 28, 2010, 05:35 PM
---"Originally Posted by ridgeback
Maybe some should try and see it from dressage arts point of view because there are thousands like her and things just might change because of it. Instead of bullying her try and understand. jmo"---

I think that I am not the only one missing the points of this discussion.:no:.

As for being bullied, maybe those against RK and so vocal should think who is the bully here, when seen from those that are training and riding, minding their own business and a herd of cyber dressage computer riders, many that may not even ride horses or compete in dressage, come down on them to tell them they are abusing their horses and how to ride?:confused:

I Understand but honestly they have the numbers, USDF and Dressage today both came out against RK and the FEI is not ignoring the 10,000+ petition signers. From experience in the dog world you are not going to get everyone to see your side but when people are so condescending you will never get anyone to see your side(the pro rk side).

katarine
Jan. 28, 2010, 05:56 PM
but when people are so condescending you will never get anyone to see your side(the pro rk side).

Ridge, I don't have a proverbial dog in this fight. But I read Coppers Moms thoughtful posts, and then I read Dressage Art's posts, what I see is the latter being condescending, consistently, and without fail. Things like if 'deep was good did you HAVE to pull him in another foot?' - if she's going for expressive what she's giving is, in fact, dramatic condescending, judgement.

She'll have to be open to being wrong about it, at all, anywhere, in anyone's hands...for this to be a conversation.

S0, question for DA: When you read over what Copper's Mom posted: is what she posted about doing, and what NHWR posted about doing: in any way, on any day....ok? Ever? Or Never?

ridgeback
Jan. 28, 2010, 06:21 PM
but when people are so condescending you will never get anyone to see your side(the pro rk side).

Ridge, I don't have a proverbial dog in this fight. But I read Coppers Moms thoughtful posts, and then I read Dressage Art's posts, what I see is the latter being condescending, consistently, and without fail. Things like if 'deep was good did you HAVE to pull him in another foot?' - if she's going for expressive what she's giving is, in fact, dramatic condescending, judgement.

She'll have to be open to being wrong about it, at all, anywhere, in anyone's hands...for this to be a conversation.

S0, question for DA: When you read over what Copper's Mom posted: is what she posted about doing, and what NHWR posted about doing: in any way, on any day....ok? Ever? Or Never?

This thread is how many pages long? It gets frustrating when you have people like egontoast who is very condescending and acts like a bully most of the time so DA got defensive and by the time copper's mom posted something it was to late. Just an observation.

Bluey
Jan. 28, 2010, 06:23 PM
Ugh. So if we use computers that means we can't be good horseman or riders?

Of course not.
What I mean is that here, in this discussion, some are taking the high road about what RK is or is not with little to go by, other than following bandwagons.
That always gets me pointing that out, regardless of who's side I would have taken if I was involved.

I have watched this RK discussion with interest, but again and again, with very few that really know what RK is or feels like, seems that many against this are just being hardheaded, even in the face of some constructive debate.

On a very slow day, I too had something to say about this, especially when this debate is involving the good name of some trainers and competitors that are at the top now and this just keeps seeming to me a sad witch hunt, the way it is conducted.

If there is merit to how some feel about this, they lose their credibility sometimes by the way they are going at objecting to RK, with some over the top proclamations, I think.

That is my point with DA and other's words here (NOT DA, that I don't know who she is).:yes:

katarine
Jan. 28, 2010, 06:26 PM
Dressage Art has not started living until she can rise above the narrow confines of her individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all dressage.- Katarine on COTH

If one's goal is THE truth, not THEIR truth, it's never too late. And whether it is frustrating or not, irrelevant.

My question stands.

mp
Jan. 28, 2010, 06:39 PM
To Coppers mom and Don Raph and anyone else who tried to explain/took the bait, thanks for the insights. I'm not a fan of overflexion, but your posts made sense to me.



This thread is how many pages long? It gets frustrating when you have people like egontoast who is very condescending and acts like a bully most of the time so DA got defensive and by the time copper's mom posted something it was to late. Just an observation.

To those who are trying to explain the histrionic behavior of others, please come up with something better than the "he/she started it first" defense. Oy ...

Coppers mom
Jan. 28, 2010, 06:47 PM
This thread is how many pages long? It gets frustrating when you have people like egontoast who is very condescending and acts like a bully most of the time so DA got defensive and by the time copper's mom posted something it was to late. Just an observation.

What?!

I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Someone disagrees with you, and you call them a bully. That's fine, I don't care if you feel the need to act like you're in the 3rd grade. But seriously? It's too late to have a good discussion? If egontoast did anything wrong, it was PAGES ago! Get over it for crying out loud! Like I said, you don't want to discuss, you want to whine.

This over-emotional, big meany poo poo head stuff makes me gag. This is why you can't have a discussion with anyone, not because others are being condescending. You guys start with the most ridiculous stuff ("look at his eyes", "put your chin to your chest and see how it feels", and the general lack of reading skills) and THEN people jump on you for acting like a hysterical keyboard jockey.

I've argued this point before, and it still baffles me that people don't understand that when you act like a big, incompetent baby, people will treat you like one. It's especially frustrating for those of us who are opposed because of logical reasons. I hate being lumped into the busy-body, know nothing ammy group with people who reply like this because I don't agree with RK as it's being used.

Bluey
Jan. 28, 2010, 06:53 PM
Or "I will not ride in the same warm up ring where some is "doing RK".:p

That was a little bit, lets say, over the top.:lol:

Someone said there were 10.000 signatures against RK as if that was some kind of price they won.

I am glad that we are a republic, not a democracy, because sometimes, the majority can be wrong.
That is why we have representatives, to avoid a loud and sometimes clueless majority to guide by their sheer numbers.

I say let the process work, don't push it over a cliff in haste and then wonder what happened.
Let the powers that be decide if and how much to regulate how training can be done in the warm up rings, as they have been doing for so long now and remember, next time it may be YOUR toes that some regulation may step on and you will be glad no one went around in a witch hunt to string you up for it.

ridgeback
Jan. 28, 2010, 06:58 PM
What?!

I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Someone disagrees with you, and you call them a bully. That's fine, I don't care if you feel the need to act like you're in the 3rd grade. But seriously? It's too late to have a good discussion? If egontoast did anything wrong, it was PAGES ago! Get over it for crying out loud! Like I said, you don't want to discuss, you want to whine.

This over-emotional, big meany poo poo head stuff makes me gag. This is why you can't have a discussion with anyone, not because others are being condescending. You guys start with the most ridiculous stuff ("look at his eyes", "put your chin to your chest and see how it feels", and the general lack of reading skills) and THEN people jump on you for acting like a hysterical keyboard jockey.

I've argued this point before, and it still baffles me that people don't understand that when you act like a big, incompetent baby, people will treat you like one. It's especially frustrating for those of us who are opposed because of logical reasons. I hate being lumped into the busy-body, know nothing ammy group with people who reply like this because I don't agree with RK as it's being used.

Thank you for showing exactly what I mean... You are lumping me in with things I have not said this is exactly my point. You make assumptions about people's talent and skill level because they disagree with you. I've seen many ammy's that can outride juniors and pros. Just because someone decides to call themself a pro means nothing.

EqTrainer
Jan. 28, 2010, 07:26 PM
In reply to the OP's question - if you consider the occassional whipping a horses head between his knees so that he cannot launch me onto the moon Rollkur, then I guess the answer is yes, I do it. Preferably to the tune of "Stayin' Alive".... sans the white suit.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 28, 2010, 08:02 PM
DA.You are again dead wrong regarding Baucher.In Kerbrecht it clearly states that these flexions are done at a standstill,then put in motion for longer periods.Will you agree to a friendly wager,shall we say 1000 euro?Then I will post these pages and let the gallery decide which of us has understood them.Again.I own these books!You do not have your FACTS straight.By the way.You continue to insist,in spite of what I have already explained,that LDR riders dont practice release and or lightening of the aids.This is preposturous!If that were true and frequently is with horses ridden at the vertical it would be bad riding!In LDR if it were true it would be bad riding!The great and prominant LDR riders of today are riding very light horses. I have been trying to help you.Perhaps more than to share with the others.If you continue your obtuse,confrontational diatribe full with half truths and outright fasle information that has the very real possibility to be trouble to many good persons ability to make a living,I must concede that you are beyond my ability to help you.I am 67 years old and have been trained to ride artistic dressage horses since the age of ten.I will not debate further.As I said I have hoped to help.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

mbm
Jan. 28, 2010, 08:58 PM
so, DRR - why do we see videos of rollkur'd horses not being released? we see videos of the riders with their feet on the dashboard, kicking the horse forward , pulling back , etc?

where is the release in that?

it is the ugly and forceful images that people are rebelling against (leaving aside the results in competition) ...

siegi b.
Jan. 28, 2010, 09:38 PM
mbm.... the voice of the people!! :) I think you are suffering from a very large ego!

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 28, 2010, 09:54 PM
My last post.Iwill not be baited again.MBM.If you look at Totillas,Salinero,Bonfire,Gigolo,Warum Nicht,Satchmo[except for that piaffe thing.nobody's perfect],Escapado with Carl Hester or Hans Peter up,Rembrant and many others and say you see heavyness or whatever it was you have said to me,you cant be helped.These people and their horses do beautiful work.I know a couple of them and they are kind,gentle people that will never hurt an animal!Imagine if someone who had never met one of your friends began making terrible public accusations about them.You would be livid.When you have completed the training of an Haute Ecole horse or two you may respect these people more even if you dont agree with them because you would then have the EYE to see that their work is free from violence and force and is simply different in posture.I no longer would enjoy dinner and wine with you or DA.But Caddy,PM me my darling!
Cioa,
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

CatOnLap
Jan. 28, 2010, 10:03 PM
elegantly spoken...err...written.

the comment on the actual bullying going on is apt as well.

Thanks some of you for a most spirited and recently educational topic.

egontoast
Jan. 28, 2010, 10:33 PM
Don Rafe,

May I join you and Caddy. Purely platonic and we can even go Dutch on the cheque!:cool:;)

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 28, 2010, 10:36 PM
My extreme pleasure.If a little is good,more is better!No?

Carol O
Jan. 28, 2010, 10:54 PM
My extreme pleasure.If a little is good,more is better!No?

Theo? Is that you?

egontoast
Jan. 28, 2010, 11:00 PM
Theo? Is that you?

Don't think so.

BaroquePony
Jan. 28, 2010, 11:37 PM
DRR, could you explain why I percieve that Totilas is lighter and more balanced in the 1st video versus the 2nd? I'm not sure, but I think the first tape was in 2007. In the 2009 tape I thought I saw that Totilas neck was thicker (quite a bit thicker) and his walk almost looks lateral. The neck looks so much heavier and the hindquarters do not look as muscled in comparison (to the neck).

Edward Gal met Totilas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vImhQN69d9w&feature=related

Edward Gal & Moorlands Totilas Kür 90.750% European Championship 2009 UK Windsor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_FDK04vXaI

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 28, 2010, 11:46 PM
I respect your perception.I percieve the horse as signifigantly more physically powerful.A development of the ecellent LDR training and its full body benefits but in no way in the close ups or otherwise heavy in any way.This unique animal so wants to extend himself physically for his rider.More than I have ever seen in a non Iberian horse,and yet will go from ultimate collection to free walk so perfectly.Is he not relaxed?
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

BaroquePony
Jan. 28, 2010, 11:59 PM
I actually think he DOES look relaxed, but not completely in the total "classical" manner (spine parallel to the track of the movement in a PERFECT manner). His head is cocked to the side and I find that one fault bothers me at this level with this high a caliber of rider and horse. I feel that if the rider is going to ask so much of this horse then the long term soundness will be jeopardized with this particular fault. It is not good for the spine over time, especially the neck.

The other issues I have I do not believe would be detrimental to the long term soundness like the one I mentioned above. However, I do think the excessive muscling of the neck has begun to effect his abilty to move freely at the walk and the probably the other non-collected gaits.

I was taught that too much collection will eventually create early unsoundness over time.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 29, 2010, 12:01 AM
I respectfully disagree.

BaroquePony
Jan. 29, 2010, 12:04 AM
Perhaps you could explain why (you disagree)?

You don't see any problem with the head being slighlty cocked to one side and then asking the horse to work so hard? I don't have a problem with the hard work aspect at all, only the lack of entire alignment at that level.

mbm
Jan. 29, 2010, 12:09 AM
DRR:

can you explain why we see what we see in this video? and how it fits into the description you have given above?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE

or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw&feature=related

or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4

or this?
http://www.youtube.com/user/arno8#p/u/3/YgVewusDju0

i could go on....but you get the idea...

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 29, 2010, 12:39 AM
I do not see the head cocking you see.Nor did the best judges in the world.This is for Carol O.MBM.Please do not address me again.

BaroquePony
Jan. 29, 2010, 12:43 AM
DRR, In the very beginning of the test on the 2nd tape. There is a close up as Totilas comes down the center line. It is hard to see during the rest of the tape due to the distance. But in the very beginning of the test it is quite evident.

I am not being disrepectful of the judges, but I was trained to have a very critical eye.

mbm
Jan. 29, 2010, 12:45 AM
IMBM.Please do not address me again.

your kidding, right?

did you look at the vids posted?

i am honestly curious how they fit into what you have said about rollkur.... or if they aren't what you are discussing?

you seem to want to have a reasoned discussion, but when questioned you either ignore the question or insult the questioner.

not very gentlemanly.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:00 AM
Carol O.I saw it in a mere moment in the start as you have said.The rest of the ride I concur with the jury hired to officiate an event of this status.i believe that between his God given gifts and his training Totilas is the best dressage horse that has ever lived.That covers much ground.As a classicist I will not cut hairs over nuance when so much more goodness is prevelent.MBM.I have ask you nicely.
don Raphaelo Rollkurista

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:02 AM
Forgive my spelling.I have a weakness for wine.Please forgive me.

mbm
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:05 AM
just for clarities sake - this is what DRR said:


I am Don Raphaelo Rollkurista and I do like to gently,carefully,and gradually over time,relax my horses jaw and neck until I can ride him in any number of REASONABLE postures.It is really about lowering the horses neck while retaining the same approx. degree of flexion that horse would go in at the vertical at its current level of training.I.E. Much more flexion in the G.P. horse than a horse working at A or L.I repeat.It is about relaxing the horses into lower stretched positions or postures if you will.Not PULLING them down and in!If a horse in G.P. frame is ask to hold that frame and lower his neck to somewhere close to a down and forward angle it will appear as though he was pulled there.It is about a horse that is relaxed enough to really lower his neck while "maintaining the frame angle he had when he was up.So.To stay on topic and not be removed.I do ride what you call rollkur but I do not like that word.I prefer LDR.<snip> Anyone who deepens a horse,especially if it is to the degree of hyperflexion by pulling it in is riding badly!

see, the problem is that what you have written is what we have been told for years... unfortunately it isnt what is shown in the videos and what people see IRL. if what was happening was really gentle and easy as you say - folks wouldn't be so upset.

however, even you agree that pulling and force is bad riding... and yet - look at the videos i posted. do you not agree that is bad riding as you describe it?

look, i am not a naive person.... i know that training is hard etc. but it shouldn't be brutal. even you agree with that.

i think if you really read my posts you would see that i have a fairly "moderate" position about rollkur (eta, moderate for an anti, that is.... ). i dont agree it is abuse, altho i do agree that is shouldn't be part of dressage....

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:21 AM
My last message was to Baroque Pony.The wine again.I am sorry.MBM.Was I not clear?Please leave me be.I might enjoy the exchanges here with the other participants but I cannot allow myself to have any relationship with those so willing to commit character assasination of others who are truly unknown and harmless to them!
Don Raphaelo Rolkurista

quietann
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:26 AM
/takes another sip of wine and watches the troll wriggle.

think we're gonna need an xtra large popcorn to go with our drinks for this one, eh?

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:30 AM
Oh my!It does!I will try another time!

mbm
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:39 AM
My last message was to Baroque Pony.The wine again.I am sorry.MBM.Was I not clear?Please leave me be.I might enjoy the exchanges here with the other participants but I cannot allow myself to have any relationship with those so willing to commit character assasination of others who are truly unknown and harmless to them!
Don Raphaelo Rolkurista

eta:

look, i haven not character assassinated anyone - unless you feel that by posting videos that = character assassination?

in any case, clearly you are not able to answer the questions posed to you. and that is fine. but just realize that people have eyes - they can see. and no matter how many people are "sent" here to do rollkur PR and spin - it wont, and cant, take away what we see.

ok, i am off to bed. enjoy your wine.

Karoline
Jan. 29, 2010, 03:10 AM
mbm why even bother? Other then finding the odd turn of phrase intriguing because it has a faint echo of some other COTH posters, there is nothing to gain. With Donny K, we are in high school again. We are cliquish, we think we are special and we misspell the authors we are supposed to have read with great abandon.

Definitely someone who made other kids life miserable and strides the great corridors of life thinking they are still hot shi$$ sharing approximative half-truths couched in great superiority for the easy absorption of even less well read or educated sycophants all panting with joy at being part of the club.

Of course, I think Donny K is as real as the golden goose. Really the by-product of one or more of the more malicious posters here.

Uh no thank you.

Sort of sad really.

Coreene
Jan. 29, 2010, 03:16 AM
DRR, unfortunately it is difficult for some to understand that Sjef's LDR system is something that you don't learn overnight, that it is a training system that works and that it is similar to LDR riding that has been used by leading European dressage and showjumping riders for years. We all know that no horse will be a 10 in each movement, but sadly some cannot see the forest for the trees and need to point fingers at a training system they know little to nothing about. But good on ya for trying to explain it to them. :yes:

naturalequus
Jan. 29, 2010, 03:42 AM
Wow, what a variety of perceptions of the method!!

Bluey
Jan. 29, 2010, 07:12 AM
I actually think he DOES look relaxed, but not completely in the total "classical" manner (spine parallel to the track of the movement in a PERFECT manner). His head is cocked to the side and I find that one fault bothers me at this level with this high a caliber of rider and horse. I feel that if the rider is going to ask so much of this horse then the long term soundness will be jeopardized with this particular fault. It is not good for the spine over time, especially the neck.

The other issues I have I do not believe would be detrimental to the long term soundness like the one I mentioned above. However, I do think the excessive muscling of the neck has begun to effect his abilty to move freely at the walk and the probably the other non-collected gaits.

I was taught that too much collection will eventually create early unsoundness over time.

Some of the development you see two years later is called maturity and in some stallions, secondary sexual characteristics.

Ever looked to the young stallions in the SRS and then as they are older, how those features change?

There is just so much remodeling you may accomplish with training the body, other is inherent to how some horses are made.

That very well could be a logical explanation for some stallions becoming, as they mature and age, a little bit heavier in front and lighter behind, comparatively speaking, to the younger picture of the same individual.

Bluey
Jan. 29, 2010, 07:18 AM
mbm why even bother? Other then finding the odd turn of phrase intriguing because it has a faint echo of some other COTH posters, there is nothing to gain. With Donny K, we are in high school again. We are cliquish, we think we are special and we misspell the authors we are supposed to have read with great abandon.

Definitely someone who made other kids life miserable and strides the great corridors of life thinking they are still hot shi$$ sharing approximative half-truths couched in great superiority for the easy absorption of even less well read or educated sycophants all panting with joy at being part of the club.

Of course, I think Donny K is as real as the golden goose. Really the by-product of one or more of the more malicious posters here.

Uh no thank you.

Sort of sad really.

I think that maybe this time you are missing the mark.

There are some posters that definitely show they don't know what they are speaking about and it shows.
No clique is ignoring them as who they are, but some are ignoring them because they don't know what they speak of.
You can only point that out so many times to someone that doesn't get the message and keeps butting in, when it should be listening.

Sorry, there is a time to say your piece, but when others explain why you don't get it, maybe you ought to listen, not keep trying to show that you really don't know what you are talking about and are still not getting it.

The smart ones learn from that realization, doesn't take long to sink in.
The rest, well, they just keep showing they just don't get it and with that attitude, it is going to be a loooong learning curve, I am afraid.

Happens to the best of us, it's part of live and learn.
How we handle that situation is very telling to teachers.:yes:

siegi b.
Jan. 29, 2010, 08:32 AM
Bluey - you are my idol! :)

Bluey
Jan. 29, 2010, 09:00 AM
Bluey - you are my idol! :)

Oh, thank you, thank you.:)

Looking down, I am ashamed to say, I have clay feet, very, very soft clay feet.:eek:
I too have dug myself into a deeper hole at times, thinking I knew what I was talking about and not realizing how much I was missing.
The voice of experience here and I am afraid, not getting smarter about it myself.:(
Sad, is it, to find clay feet on our idols, so sad...:cry:

Seriously, I hope that I have made it clear that I don't know ANYTHING at all about RK, am winging any ideas of it with what I know from before RK, BRK, so to say.;)

I am afraid that many here are like I am, blind and trying to describe the elephant RK has become by touch and just not getting even close to what it is, what it does and why AND some that know are not being listened to in the zest of some to run with their distaste for RK, that they can't support with believable facts.

I do find RK intruiging, am learning much from others more familiar with RK than I am and, like always, don't like when some good, honest trainers are dragged thru the mud as they are here, without real cause, on a training techniques debate.:no:
Honestly, no horses have been shown to be hurt by RK, not only that, some are winning at the top using RK, have been for years now, if I understand this right, so cries of "abuse!" are a red herring here.
I don't like injustices, on principle, even if I have to dig myself deeper to point that out.:yes:

ridgeback
Jan. 29, 2010, 09:04 AM
Yep Bluey we just don't know what were talking about just like we don't know anything about our food industry killing us. I wouldn't expect anyone who thinks it's fine how our food animals are treated to agree with someone like DA on RK. That is your answer for everything....they must not understand or they are just a novice. I'm not against RK but when some day it gets banned in warm-up or dressage gets booted out of the olympics I promise not to say told you so.

Bluey
Jan. 29, 2010, 09:21 AM
Yep Bluey we just don't know what were talking about just like we don't know anything about our food industry killing us. I wouldn't expect anyone who thinks it's fine how our food animals are treated to agree with someone like DA on RK. That is your answer for everything....they must not understand or they are just a novice. I'm not against RK but when some day it gets banned in warm-up or dressage gets booted out of the olympics I promise not to say told you so.

What does the food industry have to do with any discussion here?:confused:
These RK debates are getting more and more crazy.:lol:
Here, read a little bit more about food, if that is something you care about seriously, as I really think many don't know enough, sorry to disagree with you on this:

http://www.cgfi.org/2010/01/20/greenpeace-opts-for-millions-of-blind-kids-by-dennis-t-avery/

Remember, YOU brought this topic up, don't blame me.;)

Now, on to this debate here, do you realize that you are complaining that I am pointing out that some are not getting it by saying that I can't "get" where some posters come from?:winkgrin:

I have said that the powers that be may or not ban RK and will do so for many reasons, not necessarily because RK is "bad".

Maybe they will choose expedience, to ban a controversy, over studying RK and keep hearing all the background noise from the gallery about it?

In this RK controversy, I don't think anyone can "win" and tell others "I told you so", because it will be a pyrrhic victory for all.:no:

Bats79
Jan. 29, 2010, 10:24 AM
just for clarities sake - this is what DRR said:



see, the problem is that what you have written is what we have been told for years... unfortunately it isnt what is shown in the videos and what people see IRL. if what was happening was really gentle and easy as you say - folks wouldn't be so upset.

however, even you agree that pulling and force is bad riding... and yet - look at the videos i posted. do you not agree that is bad riding as you describe it?

look, i am not a naive person.... i know that training is hard etc. but it shouldn't be brutal. even you agree with that.

i think if you really read my posts you would see that i have a fairly "moderate" position about rollkur (eta, moderate for an anti, that is.... ). i dont agree it is abuse, altho i do agree that is shouldn't be part of dressage....

I too am waiting to see some video of "rollkur" that shows all the significant markers that DRR is talking about. Maybe if we could be shown some "correct" TRAINING in rollkur we might be less harsh in our condemnation. When the only visual evidence of the training technique are so gross that even the supporters say it is "bad riding" how are we supposed to think anything other than it is BAD RIDING.

If the "good rollkur" remains something that is only practiced behind closed doors then how is it to be anything other than condemned?

Bluey
Jan. 29, 2010, 10:30 AM
I too am waiting to see some video of "rollkur" that shows all the significant markers that DRR is talking about. Maybe if we could be shown some "correct" TRAINING in rollkur we might be less harsh in our condemnation. When the only visual evidence of the training technique are so gross that even the supporters say it is "bad riding" how are we supposed to think anything other than it is BAD RIDING.

If the "good rollkur" remains something that is only practiced behind closed doors then how is it to be anything other than condemned?

Some have tried to explain, but do you really want someone to post pictures or videos of something everyone is burning at the stake without listening to any reason?
No matter what was posted, the yelling about all that was wrong, if it was there or imagined, would never stop.

When everyone is on a witch hunt, why provide ammunition?:yes:

egontoast
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:09 AM
It is just about impossible to discuss this rationally because on the one hand you have people who are somewhat open to discussing it from varying perspectives but then there are those people who are completely dogmatic and emotional in their views and will miss no opportunity to attack quite viciously if you don't completely agree with their view of it.

Unfortunately,that leads to ill considered responses and I have been guilty of so responding to this type of provocation in the past. Hopefully no more since making better use of the ignore button.

I'm guessing 99.9% of those of us who try to be open to different perspectives and are interested in reading about different perspectives have never used rollkur and will likely never use rollkur but because we don't automatically villify anyone who does use this technique or label it horse abuse we are attacked as PRO- Rolkur, Followers of Rollkur....and other such nonsense.

You only have to go back and read through these threads to see where the nastiness comes from.

BaroquePony
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:09 AM
Posted by Bluey:

Some have tried to explain, but do you really want someone to post pictures or videos of something everyone is burning at the stake without listening to any reason?
No matter what was posted, the yelling about all that was wrong, if it was there or imagined, would never stop.

When everyone is on a witch hunt, why provide ammunition?:yes:

I would love to see a video of rollkur being used in a manner that looked like it was just another excercise in a balanced training program for the specific horse.

I don't care what exercise one is using on the horse, it has never been considered intelligent training to do something for more than short periods of time and then relax for a bit and then pick up another set of exercises.

nhwr
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:22 AM
I too am waiting to see some video of "rollkur" that shows all the significant markers that DRR is talking about.That will never happen because the people using RK are actually riding, the people with the video cameras are not ;)

Seriously, I know people who are happy to discuss the method with people who are interested in learning about it. Given the choice between riding and banging their heads against the wall by arguing with be people who are only inerested in playing gotcha, they'd rather tack up.

And who could blame them :dead: If that makes one "cliquish", count me in.

There is little enough time to ride, I'd rather not waste it arguing about something about which no agreement will ever be reached.

egontoast
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:31 AM
Seriously, I know people who are happy to discuss the method with people who are interested in learning about it. Given the choice between riding and banging their heads against the wall by arguing with be people who are only inerested in playing gotcha, they'd rather tack up.

True. These people are riding and training not worrying about what random people say on the internet.

Nojacketrequired
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:40 AM
A few times throughout this thread I have read the non-rolkur people state that they want it banned from the warm up.

Are they saying that this is an "out of sight out of mind" issue for them?

And, if they had behind the scenes experience at some of the BIG shows in Europe they'd know that was pointless because there is the warm-up and then there is the PUBLIC warm up. Often two very different things.

NJR

nhwr
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:40 AM
And can we please stop all the accusations about bullying. People express their ideas with passion and sometimes it gets (inappropriately) personal, but no one is going to reach through the screen and take your lunch money. If it bothers you, use the ignore option.

CatOnLap
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:42 AM
It is just about impossible to discuss this rationally because on the one hand you have people who are somewhat open to discussing it from varying perspectives but then there are those people who are completely dogmatic and emotional in their views and will miss no opportunity to attack quite viciously if you don't completely agree with their view of it.


That is what I have found frustrating in this discussion. The opening post appears to be bait to call out anyone who dares admit to the technique...





possibly in order to tie them to a stake and burn them.

Anyone who actually uses the technique gets called a troll or otherwise unflattering names, and the name callers apparently have not the knowledge to realize that the "troll" knows more than they about dressage.
If you want to argue with a master, learn as much as the master first.

There are a few posts in this thread that have actually given me a more balanced view of the technique in addition to what I have been taught on my own horses and on schoolmasters, about rollkur, by instructors that the world would consider dressage masters.

And frankly, I'd like to know where Don Raphaello is teaching- anywhere on the west coast?

BaroquePony
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:45 AM
Posted by nhwr:

That will never happen because the people using RK are actually riding, the people with the video cameras are not ;)

I don't think it is that complicated. The camerman is the camerman and the rider is the rider.

ridgeback
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:49 AM
:lol:
It is just about impossible to discuss this rationally because on the one hand you have people who are somewhat open to discussing it from varying perspectives but then there are those people who are completely dogmatic and emotional in their views and will miss no opportunity to attack quite viciously if you don't completely agree with their view of it.

Unfortunately,that leads to ill considered responses and I have been guilty of so responding to this type of provocation in the past. Hopefully no more since making better use of the ignore button.

I'm guessing 99.9% of those of us who try to be open to different perspectives and are interested in reading about different perspectives have never used rollkur and will likely never use rollkur but because we don't automatically villify anyone who does use this technique or label it horse abuse we are attacked as PRO- Rolkur, Followers of Rollkur....and other such nonsense.

You only have to go back and read through these threads to see where the nastiness comes from.

With the snow storm coming I needed something to laugh about thank you Egontoast.:lol::lol::lol:

egontoast
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:51 AM
In reply to Baroque pony:

It's easier to be a railbird than to actually walk the talk.

Anyone can take videos then use selective editing and slo-mo to make a point. It's called advertising or marketing to promote whatever you are selling or whatever view you might wish to promote.

Coreene
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:58 AM
It's not LDR In Three Easy Steps. If you want that, switch to cooking shows and hang up the bridle. It is a system. Not one you learn overnight, not one you learn on videos. If you want to learn about it, I suggest you spend time with a trainer who works with that system; bring an open mind and just maybe you will learn.

egontoast
Jan. 29, 2010, 12:13 PM
And can we please stop all the accusations about bullying. People express their ideas with passion and sometimes it gets (inappropriately) personal, but no one is going to reach through the screen and take your lunch money. If it bothers you, use the ignore option

:lol:

Yes the bullying accusation seems to be the refuge of those who can't bear to have anyone ever disagree with them.

nhwr
Jan. 29, 2010, 12:17 PM
The camerman is the camerman and the rider is the rider.Thanks for the clarification of the already obvious, BP.

Anyone who rides will experience bad moments, often many in a ride. The more you ride, the more this may happen. When people go to a show with a video camera and an agenda to make people look bad, they can do it easily. So what? Only a fool would believe that is a compete representation of anything.

IRL, I have seen more horses crippled by supposedly "classical" riding than any other method. But I know that this is the result, not of classical riding, but of just plain bad riding. The same could said about any training method; bad riding can be injurious to horses.

The anti-rolkur people make the leap that rolkur is bad riding, ipso facto. My experience (and many other people's) is different.

caddym
Jan. 29, 2010, 12:36 PM
Don Rafe,

May I join you and Caddy. Purely platonic and we can even go Dutch on the cheque!:cool:;)

Yes you can join us - and I'll buythe wine:)

Coreene
Jan. 29, 2010, 12:50 PM
Well count me in too. I'll bring the Bols Genever.

AhORSei$Ah0R$e
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:12 PM
And I'll bring the castinets.

Coppers mom
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:13 PM
I would love to see a video of rollkur being used in a manner that looked like it was just another excercise in a balanced training program for the specific horse.
I wish I had a video of my guy at that clinic. He looked fabulous once we got the kinks worked out, and it would have been nice to have a sales video from it. I'd love to go out and recreate it, but I'm lucky enough to have wonderful ponies now that really wouldn't illustrate the benefits of the method. Even the cheeky ones just need a boot and a "pack it in" and they're back to being good. :lol:


I don't care what exercise one is using on the horse, it has never been considered intelligent training to do something for more than short periods of time and then relax for a bit and then pick up another set of exercises.
YES! I know that the top riders can ride better than I can, but I do not think that they are applying the exercise properly. At all. Just because you have talent doesn't mean you make good decisions.

mbm
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:30 PM
Coppers mom - thanks for sharing your perspective.
i have some thoughts.... i am not sure what the situation was with your guy.... but in my mind i always wonder - if the horse is resisting or being as ass - the question is why?

if a horse is "forced" to release all tension - what happens if that tension was there for a reason? ie: to protect something sore or weak?

caddym
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:42 PM
And I'll bring the castinets.

Goody, we can eat drink and be merry and duct tape our chins to our chests and do the hookie-pookie to the beat of casinets:)

andalusia
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:50 PM
Hello old friend. Even with a belly full of wine, you are a breath of fresh air. Please, do continue.

AhORSei$Ah0R$e
Jan. 29, 2010, 01:54 PM
Goody, we can eat drink and be merry and duct tape our chins to our chests and do the hookie-pookie to the beat of casinets

Dancing, oh goodie! I'll be wearing my borium high heels and a rose in my teeth.

Coppers mom
Jan. 29, 2010, 03:14 PM
Coppers mom - thanks for sharing your perspective.
i have some thoughts.... i am not sure what the situation was with your guy.... but in my mind i always wonder - if the horse is resisting or being as ass - the question is why?

if a horse is "forced" to release all tension - what happens if that tension was there for a reason? ie: to protect something sore or weak?
Go back and read my previous posts, his issues have been covered :)

*gotcha gotcha gotcha* that's all you guys want :yes:

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 29, 2010, 03:30 PM
I am now so happy!To have a great party sounds wonderful!But,please no duck tape.I am not as wild as I used to be!But the wine sounds fantastic.I sometimes like beer too.I dont always drink beer,but when I do,I prefer Dos Equis!

AhORSei$Ah0R$e
Jan. 29, 2010, 03:39 PM
A Dos Equis for me and one for my horse!

escondi
Jan. 29, 2010, 03:54 PM
"DRR" - I do remember the "one for my horse." But you gotta get with the program, darlin - Dos Equis has been replaced by Great White.

Dressage Art
Jan. 29, 2010, 03:59 PM
DA.You are again dead wrong regarding Baucher.In Kerbrecht it clearly states that these flexions are done at a standstill,then put in motion for longer periods.Will you agree to a friendly wager,shall we say 1000 euro?Then I will post these pages and let the gallery decide which of us has understood them.Again.I own these books!You do not have your FACTS straight.By the way.You continue to insist,in spite of what I have already explained,that LDR riders dont practice release and or lightening of the aids.This is preposturous!If that were true and frequently is with horses ridden at the vertical it would be bad riding!In LDR if it were true it would be bad riding!The great and prominant LDR riders of today are riding very light horses. I have been trying to help you.Perhaps more than to share with the others.If you continue your obtuse,confrontational diatribe full with half truths and outright fasle information that has the very real possibility to be trouble to many good persons ability to make a living,I must concede that you are beyond my ability to help you.I am 67 years old and have been trained to ride artistic dressage horses since the age of ten.I will not debate further.As I said I have hoped to help.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

"again dead wrong"
"This is preposturous!"
"your obtuse,confrontational diatribe full with half truths and outright fasle information"

And this is what you call a “rational discussion” from the pro-rollkur supporters? And that is NOT considered an “emotional” post? And that is NOT considered a “quite vicious attack”? And that is not considered a source of “nastiness? Huh? Or double standard is just too strong for some to see?

Coppers mom
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:03 PM
Oh God, quit whining. :rolleyes:

DA, I know you're going to think I'm a big meany poo poo head for saying this, but MOST of your posts have nothing to do with RK. All you ever do is complain about being picked on.

I think you really just want to play the victim.

Dressage Art
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:06 PM
I know other training methods that came out of Baucher: such as Philippe Karl who is a classical master who uses the Baucher flexions in his training methods. He clearly illustrated them in his books and videos. As well as Monty Roberts who calls his Baucher flexions as carrot flexions as well. As well as the Manual of Instruction for the German Cavalry from 1912 to 1926 that includes a series of Baucher exercisers to flex the neck.

All of those different training methods came out of the Baucher discovery that it is beneficial to flex the horse's neck. That is the reason why you can't claim with out any proof that Rollkur = Baucher. And just try to bully me with your age ;)

No, rollkur moved far, far away from him Baucher teachings and it's a whole another can of warms now. It's definitely different than Baucher.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:07 PM
Someone else please ask her to leave me alone.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

AhORSei$Ah0R$e
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:09 PM
Stop your endless whining, Don, and have a beer!

Dressage Art
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:10 PM
Facts are too strong for you to argue with Don? Or you think that rollkur and Philippe Karl have the same interpretation of Baucher? :lol:

escondi
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:11 PM
DRR, are you asking a mere woman to do your dirty work? Ok. I will.

Dressage Art, please leave the Don alone. LOL. This man sounds like he actually rides horses.

Dressage Art
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:14 PM
CM, I think you are still missing my point, it's NOT about me or you. We are not the victims. It's HORSES who are the victims. And it's HORSES who matter the most here. Not me, you or pointless bickering.

PS: I think somewhere in the 10 pages of bickering of who is bullying who... there is a question that Blue asked me... I'll try to find it and answer.

mp
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:15 PM
Don, do you know how to put someone on ignore? If not, here are complete instructions.

When you're logged in, you'll see something that says User CP in the blue bar at the very top of the forum page.

Click on that and it will take you to your Control Panel.

On the lefthand column at the very bottom, you'll see Buddy/Ignore Lists.

Put the yappers on your Ignore list and you'll only see their names when they post, but you won't have to look at the yapping.

Coppers mom
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:16 PM
CM, I think you are still missing my point, it's NOT about me or you. We are not the victims. It's HORSES who are the victims. And it's HORSES who matter the most here. Not me, you or pointless bickering.

Then why do you keep whining about how mean everyone is to you? Like I said, 90% of your posts have nothing to do with anything, they're just you playing the victim.

escondi
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:18 PM
DA: That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just as others are entitled to theirs. You can back yours up. I can back mine up. But what's the point? Why not wait and see what the FEI does. Life's too short to spend endlessly stressing your vocal chords. I'd rather be riding.

Dressage Art
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:28 PM
CM, please stop re-directing the conversation about me personally. As I said before to you, it's not about us humans; it's about HORSES that I am interested to talk about. It will be great if you, Don, and some others will be able to stay concentrated on the subject and talks about TRANING and HORSES.

Please remember, as OP, I'm not twisting anybody's arms to post on this thread. If you do not want to be addressed by MBM or me or other PRO-HORSE posters = please feel free not to post on this thread about this subject.

AhORSei$Ah0R$e
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:36 PM
Perhaps prefacing the original post with "and if you do, you are a heathen" would have done away with all those who disagree with other opinions. Removing judgement from the equation would allow for better discussion, if that was the true objective of this thread. Off to get another beer for me and my horse.

Dressage Art
Jan. 29, 2010, 04:48 PM
DA: That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just as others are entitled to theirs. You can back yours up. I can back mine up. But what's the point? Why not wait and see what the FEI does. Life's too short to spend endlessly stressing your vocal chords. I'd rather be riding.
Yes, I started this thread to be able to understand why/when Deep needs to become Rollkur. I read the available pro-rollkur books and watched the videos. I am open for education and to understand it more. But it seems that the pro-rollkur posters really want to repeatedly peg me in to the anti-rollkur extremist camp. They are not doing any favors for themselves by doing that. I consider myself in the middle ground, since I am OK with Deep riding methods (as I said many times), but if I’m pushed to choose between “Extreme Rollkur” and “Extreme Classical” = I’ll choose “extreme classical”, since it’s much SAFER for the horse in ANY hands = not just in hands of a few supper elite riders of the world with the supper elite horses who can pay supper amounts of $$$$$ for their training.

The superficial campaign-like talk about that rollkur "relaxes the back" and "gymnastically exercises the elite top level horse" = is not specific enough, since it can be applied with the same results to the Deep method or even to the Classical method. It's a generic sweep of the several generic sentences that can fit with ANY program. We all want our horses to be flexible and supple.

But where is the line when that horse needs to become a rollkur horse? That question wasn't yet answered.

After watching the Blue Tongue video and after hearing the FEI ruling, I'm deeply disappointed and troubled for the wellbeing of dressage horses. I do not think that FEI made a correct decision. I'm a long time paying member of USDF and USEF, a long time volunteer and was signed up to volunteer for the 1020 WEG as well. But I do not want to support with my membership money or with my volunteer hours organization that thinks that it's OK to warm-up like a blue tongue. Thus, I felt the need to voice my opinion publicly.

I am pro-horse.

escondi
Jan. 29, 2010, 05:03 PM
You were not satisfied with the response? But apparently experts were satisfied. If the response does not agree with your own ideology, then you are not satisfied with it. This sounds to me like the poker game in which a player loses and then insists all other players were cheating.

I rarely post here at all. But when I saw someone who I believe is an old buddy of mine posting and getting ripped apart, and if that is indeed my old buddy, then, well - I'll keep the conclusion to myself and leave this discussion now. He's more than well-equipped, more than well-versed, in the discipline of dressage, doma (vaq., et al.), and needs no assistance from me.

Joke's on you!

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 29, 2010, 05:12 PM
Ok.I repeat.Kerbrecht is universaly accepted,,along with Le Hotte of being Baucher's primary protoges.In the intro to the book Kerbrecht states that the book will address ONLY Baucher's second manner,not what he thinks Baucher meant but what Baucher said to him.He makes this clear before the book really begins. There is an entire chapter devoted to Ramener Outre.This is a fact.It is quite possible that Karl does not like or practice Ramener Outre.That is his perogitive.But to answer your question,yes I'm certain Karl would agree the book is by Baucher's acknowledged protoge.Yes.I believe he would acknowledge that the book refers only to the second manner because he can read better than I can spell.Yes.He will agree that the lengthy chapter titled simply Ramemer Outre is in the book and describes the systematic longditudinal overbending of the horse,first motionless and slowly over a long period of time moved into all the normal movements in motion,because he can read.Whether Karl chooses to practice this part is up to Karl and Karl alone.But previous information about Baucher,his student Kerbrecht,and Kerbrecht's writing is a fact.
You are outgunned on real information.Prove otherwise with facts if I must have this confrontational exchange with you.I state my opinion when it is only an opinion and facts regarding written words when they are facts.I'm positive Karl has read this book cover to cover 30 times or more!Figure out how to contact him and ask him your questions.He will say what I say about the book and may say he doesnt like that part.I have no idea if he practices Ramiener Outre or not!The book is an historical record.If you have not read it try to aquire it!Read!Learn!And then spend your next 30 years interpreting its meaning,and how to wield it!You will change your tune more times in your next 30 yrs than you now can imagine!Rollkur or not.You will change your tune in many,many,other ways.More than you can imagine!My heart is hurting me.I must go take my pills.I hope you have not killed me.Now that would be abuse of an old man!
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

Dressage Art
Jan. 29, 2010, 05:13 PM
escondi, so you posted here to protect your "buddy"? Oh, I thought that you posted here to talk about the training and how that training affects the horse...

I wish people would forget their egos and think more about horses than themselves.

Dressage Art
Jan. 29, 2010, 05:16 PM
Forgive my spelling.I have a weakness for wine.Please forgive me.
My heart is hurting me.I must go take my pills.I hope you have not killed me.Now that would be abuse of an old man!
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

WOW, may be take a break from wine as well? Take care of yourself and stay healthy!

bort84
Jan. 29, 2010, 05:26 PM
I think it's interesting that there was a rather long back and forth about Baucher... I'm pretty sure some of his methods are also controversial in the dressage world. I'm not bringing this up to start a "Baucher: good or bad?" discussion, but it's a good example of how even very talented horsemen that some consider beyond repute are also the source of controversy. Why would we think Anky and the like are immune?

Also, a couple of points that keep getting brought up that I find not useful to the discussion:

-They have been using rollkur successfully for years and getting excellent results in the show ring...

Once again, our top riders are top for a reason, they are extremely talented. One aspect of their training style is not necessarily responsible for that success. I would argue that the riders that use rollkur "successfully" might have even better luck with different methods (or a less extreme use of rollkur/deep/etc).

-If you are responding to this thread (especially if you are anti-rollkur, it would seem), you probably never ride and know little about "real" horse training.

This is just rude and often untrue. I'm sure there are many on here that have perhaps retired from a life of horses and also those that are very active in riding but have schedules that permit the 2 minutes it takes them to write one post on this board. You also do not always have to be a pro to be very knowledgeable about something.

Anyway, I absolutely agree that the rollkur debate shouldn't turn into a witch hunt. The best way to figure out what needs to be done about rollkur (if anything) is for both sides to be open to discussion. I doubt that any of the top riders accused of being abusive on here for using rollkur actually are. If the antis (I include myself in this group, though I try to keep emotion out of it) could curb the witch hunt-tone of their comments, we might get a better response. I think a lot of people that don't actually like the use of rollkur are more turned off by the witch hunt and so have taken up the defense of those being "picked on" (Anky, PK, etc).

Whew, long post, aaaagain, but, in summary, I think about 65% of this particular thread has been pretty interesting and has had useful information. We should all try to keep bullying, condescenion, and over the top emotion out of our posts, and maybe we can get somewhere on this.

I can't remember who mentioned Steffen Peter's response to rollkur, but I liked it. The gist was: I think it looks a bit harsh, so I choose not to practice it. I haven't seen the quote myself, but I'd imagine that's about how he'd respond. I like it.

nhwr
Jan. 29, 2010, 05:52 PM
Don Juan,

How do you feel about the Grateful Dead?

Moderator 1
Jan. 29, 2010, 05:59 PM
As there are some glimmers of productive discussion smoldering in this thread, we're going to leave it open for the time being, but EVERYONE please stop the various accusations of bullying, requests to stop addressing each other, etc.

If you don't want to interface with someone, ignore them--either with the official ignore feature explained previously, or by your own powers of restraint.

If you don't agree with another person's opinion, discuss why if you want to continue to examine the difference of opinion, but please avoid getting mired down in complaints of who is being dramatic and who is being a bully and stay focused on the topic.

Thanks,
Mod 1

AhORSei$Ah0R$e
Jan. 29, 2010, 06:01 PM
Dressage Art
Grand Prix

Join Date: Oct. 10, 2005
Location: in the saddle
Posts: 3,536

wish people would forget their egos and think more about horses than themselves.
__________________


In making assumptions and insinuations about strangers one does not know, you bely what you ask of others. It is rude to imply that anyone on this board does not care about their horses. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? or are you just interested in insulting and slandering those whose opinion you dislike. The problem with discussions is that both sides need to be open to responses, otherwise it is just a fanatic diatribe.

Oh waiter! more whine!

ise@ssl
Jan. 29, 2010, 06:06 PM
NO

Coppers mom
Jan. 29, 2010, 06:08 PM
CM, please stop re-directing the conversation about me personally. As I said before to you, it's not about us humans; it's about HORSES that I am interested to talk about. It will be great if you, Don, and some others will be able to stay concentrated on the subject and talks about TRANING and HORSES.

Please remember, as OP, I'm not twisting anybody's arms to post on this thread. If you do not want to be addressed by MBM or me or other PRO-HORSE posters = please feel free not to post on this thread about this subject.

Ummmm... I'M the one who said it's not about us :confused:

And pro-horse? Someone gag me please. :rolleyes:

How do I work the ignore function again?

egontoast
Jan. 29, 2010, 06:08 PM
Facts are too strong for you to argue with Don? Or you think that rollkur and Philippe Karl have the same interpretation of Baucher? :lol:
__________________


So now you have a very detailed and comprehensive reply to that question so perhaps you could respond with something other than 'take a break from wine'.?

Are the facts 'too strong for you to argue with", as you put it above ?

Adam
Jan. 29, 2010, 06:12 PM
I love Rollkur! Sjef deserves a Nobel Prize for what he's done! I Rollkur my horses all about the village, and in just a few months they're up to Grand Prix.

Any real rider knows it's the bees-knees. The rest of you are just a bunch of American pansies!!


:lol:

bort84
Jan. 29, 2010, 06:14 PM
Hmm, did everyone miss the post from the Mods?

Perhaps we should just all go over to the thread started by sebastian... That one seems to be holding up pretty well, haha.

mp
Jan. 29, 2010, 06:28 PM
When you're logged in, you'll see something that says User CP in the blue bar at the very top of the forum page.

Click on that and it will take you to your Control Panel.

On the lefthand column at the very bottom, you'll see Buddy/Ignore Lists.

Put the yappers on your Ignore list and you'll only see their names when they post, but you won't have to look at the actual yapping.

here you go, cm.

I really was hoping for more than "lay off the wine" from DA and still hope for something more from the anti-RK crowd besides rants. Because I am actually LEARNING something from the other side. It's not that I'll go to the barn tomorrow and start using LDR/RK/whatever you want to call it. I dwell in the sub-sub basement of dressage. But I know what it's like to try to get a horse to release his back when he's got other notions (and no, his other notions are not related to pain or conformational problems). But at least I've got a glimmer of WHY someone might use it and WHAT the results should be in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing.

Karoline
Jan. 29, 2010, 09:29 PM
Colonel Carde on Baucher and rollkur:

"Des petits malins ont tenté de justifier l’enroulement en le faisant coïncider avec le ramener outré de Baucher. Ce qui ne résiste pas une seconde à l’analyse puisque le bauchérisme ne conçoit le ramener outré que dans le rassembler, et pour le parfaire, et jamais en l’obtenant en force. « Au cours d’un enroulement de l’encolure sain, les mains du cavalier suivent l’enroulement et ne le provoquent pas » a écrit Jean Yves Le Guillou, ce qui me va tout à fait mais n’a rien à voir avec la façon dont s’y prennent les adeptes de l’hyper flexion. Il faudrait donc un long apprentissage du cavalier pour que ce procédé puisse être employé avec bonheur. Or notre époque ne le permettra pas par manque de maîtres qui le maîtriseraient et parce que le monde de la compétition est pressé."

I leave it up to Donny K to translate it since he is so familiar with Baucher. Suffice to say, Colonel Carde who is a trainer (!) does not agree that rollkur and ramener outre are the same thing at all. Not for one second.

But what does he know, he was only at the Cadre Noir for 26 years and became its leader and coached Olympians. Compared to a guy that "also" does doma vaquera, I can see how he would be at a loss.

Nothing agaisnt doma vaquera, when done properly, there is beautiful freedom in the neck.

Bats79
Jan. 29, 2010, 09:49 PM
Thanks for the clarification of the already obvious, BP.

Anyone who rides will experience bad moments, often many in a ride. The more you ride, the more this may happen. When people go to a show with a video camera and an agenda to make people look bad, they can do it easily. So what? Only a fool would believe that is a compete representation of anything.

IRL, I have seen more horses crippled by supposedly "classical" riding than any other method. But I know that this is the result, not of classical riding, but of just plain bad riding. The same could said about any training method; bad riding can be injurious to horses.

The anti-rolkur people make the leap that rolkur is bad riding, ipso facto. My experience (and many other people's) is different.


So show us some video of what is considered GOOD rollkur riding. How can this be so hard to do if the training is such a positive thing?

We have all seen those horrendous video clips of horses being trained to "dance" between pillars and know it is wrong. We also know that there is good training between pillars because we have seen it.

Why can't we see good rollkur training?

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 29, 2010, 10:02 PM
This is truly silly.I have not said once they are the same thing.Not once.But anyone who has had these books in their hands and in front of their eyes will read the words and especially,see the DRAWINGS and draw their own conclusions about whether the drawings of horses in Ramener Outre remind them of anything.Of whether Kerbrecht's descriptions sound a little similar to interviews I hope these interested party's have read or heard on the internet.It is silly to think I'm saying they are the same.For God sake it is 140 years later.How could they be the same?But is it possible Uwe Schulten Baumer and Sjef Jansen read these books?They are smart men.I wager they did.And perhaps then said," I'm going to try that," and evoled it into their current system which I AM educated in.I will say one more time.When the current system of LDR is correctly excecuted it is as without force as any previous or current classical riding.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

AhORSei$Ah0R$e
Jan. 29, 2010, 10:07 PM
We have all seen those horrendous video clips of horses being trained to "dance" between pillars and know it is wrong. We also know that there is good training between pillars because we have seen it.


Oh dear, you detest the Spanish Riding School of Vienna, too?

nhwr
Jan. 29, 2010, 10:17 PM
Why can't we see good rollkur training? I am not a videographer, so I don't have anything to offer.

My suggestion; ask people who take videos.

My suspicion; those who practice it successfuy aren't particularly interested in converting skeptics.

Karoline
Jan. 29, 2010, 10:32 PM
So sad, now Sjeff is a Nouveau Baucherist and that should give him what, credibility because he picked a 120 year old or so technique that happens to be considered one of the harshest method ever created to train dressage horses (Premiere Maniere)

I have yet to see images of rollkur without excessive saliva, sweat, red exorbited eyes, gaping mouth, all physical signs that the horse is in fact being forced ever so gently.

Retiring from RK discussion for the second time in 24 hours. No point.

nhwr
Jan. 29, 2010, 10:45 PM
Retiring from RK discussion for the second time in 24 hours.Sheesh, Karoline you sound like Mike Tyson.

Baucher is considered a rider of the classical school.

Own it.

mbm
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:11 PM
Sheesh, Karoline you sound like Mike Tyson.

Baucher is considered a rider of the classical school.

Own it.


errr... except that many "classical" guys have nothing good to say about Baucher- and the things they do say are...well.... not so polite.

MandyHawk
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:22 PM
Could it be that you are so busy hoaling at the moon that you forget the most important developments around hyperflexion ? For example the most recent scientific study about hyperflexion from which details leaked to the press today :yes:

BaroquePony
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:24 PM
Do tell :yes:

mbm
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:29 PM
Could it be that you are so busy hoaling at the moon that you forget the most important developments around hyperflexion ? For example the most recent scientific study about hyperflexion from which details leaked to the press today :yes:

well, it is a full moon.... and "hoaling" is a fine sport ;)

but please do share... what developments did i forget? what scientific studies?

perhaps while you are diggin git up you could also dig up the study about turnout that you never posted?

nhwr
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:35 PM
except that many "classical" guys have nothing good to say about Baucher- and the things they do say are...well.... not so polite. Yes, we all know that flying changes are circus tricks and evil besides :lol:

Coreene
Jan. 29, 2010, 11:37 PM
Adelinde has problems with Parzival blowing up and goes to train with Sjef - remember, his system is not just working with horse but rider as well. Six months later she's on the Olympic team, eighteen months later has a jolly nice European championship. Gal, HP, Laurens, Lotje, Marjolein, Tommie, Dominique, etc etc etc. It's a complete training system. And it works. And for those who flap on about videos, do a Rabobank search and you'll see many clips without a yanky face or bulging eye while the horses are LDR. And as a quick sidebar, nhwr and Sabine shall we have lunch soon? ;)

Kaeleer
Jan. 30, 2010, 07:01 AM
Ok, allow me to rephrase my questions:

Do you practice rollkur?

I used to. Then I became really good at it, so there's no need to practice anymore.


Where did you learn rollkur?

From all those neat links you post! Honestly, DA, I should thank you. I've saved a freaking fortune on riding lessons.


How did you learn rollkur?
Graphs and a slide rule.


What did rollkur do for your horses?
Skywalker claims he found Jesus. Barney says anything without a jump in it sucks.


If you are indifferent to the subject of rollkur, why do you bother posting on this thread?

Because watching you slowly implode is more interesting than waiting for the rain to stop so that I can go and ride my horses. You do remember what horses look like, don't you? And that there are people who RIDE them?

slc2
Jan. 30, 2010, 07:12 AM
I don't believe that argument works. People who don't agree with thee are ignorant, inexperienced, unhappy, mentally unbalanced...these arguments have been tried in every debate since the dawn of humankind. They always involve errors of logic. Though they are helpful for preaching to the choir....

For example, compare what Ingrid Klimke teaches about hyperflexion, to what Edward Gal teaches. Two internationally competitive riders with years of experience on multiple horses at the top of sport. 'You disagree because you don't ride' goes splat on its face right there.

Is it true that most of the people who dislike hyperflexion all don't ride much? Or at a 'high enough level'? A high enough level for what? To offer an opinion?

Should less experienced people be listened to? Of course, people with less experience in riding will often tend to view things with extreme rigidity.

Too, getting passionate about dressage, almost always involves adopting at least some of that 'the world is going to pot' attitude that is a part of every 'classical' model. One feels that one is a lone flame in the darkness of an ignorant and evil world. That is a very, very powerful psychology, and leads to lots and lots of chest thumping.

On the flip side, quite a few people believe that a less experienced person is a far better choice to evaluate something than someone who is an 'insider'. That's a very, very strong part of the baby boomer, 'I can protest everything' mentality.

Is that approach wrong? That debate is also as old as the hills. You won't resolve that here.

Fact is though, what we have a habit of doing, and see around us a lot, and see our superiors and heroes doing, we think is right. Humans often unquestioningly accept rationales for doing things that they are accustomed to doing and seeing, and always have. Therefore one can make a good argument that an 'insider' with 'knowledge' and 'experience' is not always the best choice for evaluating a practice.

The fact is, in every endeavor there is, the vast unwashed have a great deal to do with shaping that endeavor, for better or worse.

What non-insiders think of hyperflexion, regardless of who agrees with them or not, may be a very important factor in what happens next. In fact, we may get into a situation some day where the FEI defines and bans hyperflexion from the warmup, without a single one of those officials EVER believing it is bad for horses or dressage.

Kaeleer
Jan. 30, 2010, 07:15 AM
Slicky, not sure who that was directed at (or were you just talking in abstact), but my post wasn't aimed at those who are anti hyperflexion, but rather at those who ride their keyboards more than their horses.

You do know some people like that, don't you?

slc2
Jan. 30, 2010, 07:49 AM
I was mostly speaking in the abstract up there, but yes, actually, I do think it was your insults specifically, that got me thinking about how ineffective such a tactic is in a discussion or debate.

;)

fburton
Jan. 30, 2010, 08:11 AM
Statement from the British Horse Society. (Apologies if this has been posted here already.)

"Hyperflexion Statement

As the debate over the use of hyperflexion as a training technique continues, The British Horse Society’s policy may be stated as follows:

The British Horse Society strongly recommends that all riders training horses on the flat and over fences should adhere to the official instruction handbook of the German National Equestrian Federation. Whilst we appreciate that horses are as individual as humans, and that some may require corrective schooling, the BHS’s stand on hyperflexion (by which we mean the extreme flexion of the horse’s head and neck beyond normal limits) remains clear: it is an unacceptable method of training horses by any rider for any length of time.

We recognise that the scientific evidence is conflicting, and likely to remain so as each party seeks determinedly to prove its case. For this reason we doubt that science will ever provide a single, clear, unambiguous and unarguable answer. It therefore falls to humans to do what the horses cannot, namely to follow the precautionary principle: as nature provides no evidence of horses choosing to move in hyperflexion for an extended period of time; and as hyperflexion can create tension in the horse’s neck and back which has no justifying necessity; and as the horse in hyperflexion is, by definition, unable fully to use its neck; and as the psychological consequences of such treatment remain latent (perhaps in an analogous position with horses which are whipped aggressively but which can still pass a five star vetting), we should take all appropriate steps to discourage the use of this training technique, for the horse’s sake."

http://www.bhs.org.uk/Press_Centre/BHS_News/Rollkur_Update.aspx

fburton
Jan. 30, 2010, 08:16 AM
On the flip side, quite a few people believe that a less experienced person is a far better choice to evaluate something than someone who is an 'insider'. That's a very, very strong part of the baby boomer, 'I can protest everything' mentality.

Seeking analogies for RK in the horse world, where practices of 'insiders' may be questioned by less experienced persons, I came up with use of physical restraints - hobbles, leg strap, twitch - for live cover of mares. It looks abusive to some, but it doesn't harm the mare. It should only be practiced by those who know what they are doing. In many cases it is a short cut, though a necessity in some; either way it can be justified if it keeps the stallion safe and leads to a positive result. It isn't exactly natural, but it gets the job done. Those who use it routinely will say that anyone who criticizes it doesn't know what they are talking about - and how would they know anyway?

slc2
Jan. 30, 2010, 08:43 AM
That's just the kind of thing I was thinking of.

Some would accuse you of using a bad example, ie, comparing restraints unfairly (or fairly, if they dislike hyperflexion, especially if they equate restraining arbitrarily with hyperflexion). But I think what you're trying to illustrate is a thinking process, not that restraints are like or unlike hyperflexion. Is that right?

ridgeback
Jan. 30, 2010, 09:37 AM
DA the sad possible truth(maybe it's not sad not sure yet) you and those that think it is cruel will probably get what you want in the end. If the rather large group of you stay focused I have a feeling you will make a difference. Many are just angry that you are forcing the FEI to deal with this. If you don't win this battle and you and the anti RK people stay together you will most likely win the war. They better hope PETA doesn't get involved because if they set their sites on dressage I can bet you it will be yanked from the Olympics...that is one powerful sometimes horrible group.

fburton
Jan. 30, 2010, 10:55 AM
Some would accuse you of using a bad example, ie, comparing restraints unfairly (or fairly, if they dislike hyperflexion, especially if they equate restraining arbitrarily with hyperflexion). But I think what you're trying to illustrate is a thinking process, not that restraints are like or unlike hyperflexion. Is that right?
Exactly right. The first example that came to mind was palpating the mare, but not many owners do that and I wanted something that was at least a little controversial even amongst professionals.

grayarabpony
Jan. 30, 2010, 11:04 AM
Seeking analogies for RK in the horse world, where practices of 'insiders' may be questioned by less experienced persons, I came up with use of physical restraints - hobbles, leg strap, twitch - for live cover of mares. It looks abusive to some, but it doesn't harm the mare. It should only be practiced by those who know what they are doing. In many cases it is a short cut, though a necessity in some; either way it can be justified if it keeps the stallion safe and leads to a positive result. It isn't exactly natural, but it gets the job done. Those who use it routinely will say that anyone who criticizes it doesn't know what they are talking about - and how would they know anyway?

If they have sense, they know what is cruel and what is not.

Not talking about twitches here, but so many horse people have such a strange outlook it's not even funny.

Here's an example: a place where I used to board, briefly, as we were finishing up preparations to bring the horses home, also boarded an Arabian stallion who was very rarely allowed outside. He was a terrible weaver. I brought along a non-horsey friend who saw this stallion, who was actually turned out for 15 minutes that day.

"That's it? That's all of the time he gets outside?" asked my friend. "He makes me want to cry."

I mentioned her sentiments (which I shared) to the BO, who said "Oh, he's not unhappy. He's fine." Needless to say the stallion owner felt the same way.

What idiots. Even worse, the stallion owner was a selfish idiot.

Of course a lot of horse people would disagree with that type of management, but a lot of people also would not. It's amazing the justifications that people will make for what they do.

Bluey
Jan. 30, 2010, 11:30 AM
Remember my previous example?
I have heard my share of non horse people ask if it does not hurt horses for people to sit on their backs.
You think about that one.:eek:

slc2
Jan. 30, 2010, 12:02 PM
I have also met people who were so convinced that horse shoe nails were driven into soft tissue, causing blood loss and agonizing pain, that they could not BEAR to watch a horse be shod and screamed at me when I mentioned (without knowing their attitude) that my horses were shod.

I've also been pulled down off a stepstool while braiding a horse, and screamed at that I was torturing the horse and told never to do it again. I'm standing there with my roll of tape going, 'huh?'

And...when a gal trimmed the long hairs from the sides of her horse's tail for a dressage show, she was told by one horse person (very experienced, years of experience from another type of riding, that involved the horse having the muscles in its tail cut, and wearing a tail shaping harness 24/7) that trimming the hair was 'the most horrible mutilation imaginable' and that she should be 'horse whipped or shot, or both'.

What we believe is very powerful. What we are surrounded with, we think is ok, and we believe everything else is wrong, and we find compelling reasons why.

That can be either good or bad. Or both.

Bluey
Jan. 30, 2010, 12:17 PM
Ever tried to keep clothes and shoes on a two year old, that is screaming bloody murder about it?:eek:
Pure torture, that is what the kid is saying.
All we have to endure, kids and horses.:p

Not making fun of those that call RK abuse, but yes, saying that to call RK abuse to the extent some are is a little bit extreme, no matter how many signatures they get to ban it.:confused:

MandyHawk
Jan. 30, 2010, 12:26 PM
I can remember our recent visit to the Spanish Riding School in Vienna. Every morning they turn out the young stallions in the main arena. Many visitors where screaming and yelling to the stewards when these youngsters started fighting with eachother, and the tourguide had a lot of explaining to do.. :yes::lol:

fburton
Jan. 30, 2010, 12:41 PM
What we believe is very powerful. What we are surrounded with, we think is ok, and we believe everything else is wrong, and we find compelling reasons why.
Very true.

Feaguing (gingering) for high tail carriage in Arabian and American Saddlebred showing is a yet another example/analogy. It's a practice that is criticized by many professionals - and it does not enjoy widespread acceptance by the great unwashed. Insiders with knowledge know exactly why it is a useful and appropriate method, although explaining it to others is problemmatic, mainly because of the assumption that, just because it looks uncomfortable, it must be uncomfortable. They are also unable to understand the benefits in terms of showing. When it comes down to it, there is zero scientific evidence that it is actually harmful, either in the short or long term. Gingering merely encourages the horse to exhibit a natural pose. People will say "How would you like it if someone did that to you?". However, that merely shows their ignorance and naivety. One cannot assume that humans' and horses' perceptions work in the same way. For example, horses can stand in icy water for a considerable time without any evident discomfort, yet we would become miserable very quickly if we did the same thing. In fact, we might even find the experience painful. Therefore one cannot argue it is abusive on those grounds.