What will it take...

[MMacallister]

After reading some of the debate on the H/J forum on US vs Europe breeding, buying etc. What will it take for us to be competitive, and what will be the pit falls of that sucess?

I have done plenty of daydreaming on this subject and here are some of the problems I have come up with just thinking on logistics.
Quality vs Quantity
Many of the buyers talk about the ease of seeing many horses in a small area in Europe and NA is at a distinct disadvantage because of the area needed to travel to see the same number of horses. So in our daydream senario lets go big and breed 100 mares of good quality to good stallions.

How long should we keep them?
Should the breeder be putting more effort into getting their get into the ring? Most breeders now find this cost prohibative (see cost), and would like to sell them as young as possible. This idea is great but the problem I see with this mentality is the breeder loses control of the horses training and advertising. If you are selling foals cheaper, and they are not getting the training that would show them to their best ability, then even if the horse is great, no one will know about it. However if the horse stays under the breeder and the breeder has in house training and showing it could be a great boost to the breeder.
One way I do see that would help breeders is in the naming of horses. I have seen dog breeding contracts that require the buyer to keep the prefix (breeders name) when naming the dog. This could really help breeders and we are seeing it some in the pony ring.

Cost
Lets face it this is the biggest problem I see for a breeder in this country to "make it". Assuming that you have the property and facilities to house, breed, foal and care for 100 foals each year, and that you plan on keeping even half for 5 years to get them going and in the ring that means 250 horses plus the original 100 under your care, control and wallet. Then you need riders, grooms, and trainers. Could a farm make a deal with a BNT to show these horses? How about the exercise riders. Do we have enough that ride well enough in this country or will we import them to? What about showing? Do you start your own local show series to get mileage, do you support your local series and then take only the top to the AA show level?

Overflow
In this country both TB and QH breeders breed in large numbers, and I can pick up one of either for chump change, some of them pretty well bred. So if we add WBs to this what do we do with the excess? In the above senario if we lost 10% of those foals to resorbtion/mare not taking etc, now we have 90 and chances are not all of them are going to make it in the show ring. An amazing number of winners for a TB sire is in the 30% range, so if we use that number it will leave us with 60 of our foals less then stellar.

Maybe it isn't a bad thing that we have a market for europes "culls". Afterall, now lots of europeans are importing a lot of our "culled" qh's for reining.

Thoughts?

[showjumpers66]

Keep an eye to the initial quality and it all begins with the mares and making the right breeding decisions. There is no value in raising youngster that will be a $25,000 finished horse. It is just too expensive to raise, train, and finish one. Start their training earlier. Waiting until they are 4, 5, or even 6 years of age is not productive. Start with the right training. Get them out there, not necessarily to be shown, but so that the professionals can see them. Take advantage of the young horse programs offered by USDF, IHF, IJF, HDIF, and USEA. We offer exactly this at Silver Creek with our young horse program, so it is being done.

[Oakstable]

What is the HDIF?

[Florida Fan]

To compete with Europe-----breed PROVEN stallions to warmblood mares that have pedigree and that have performed as well at the level that you hope to attain. The Germans have showed us how----why do we not listen???

[showjumpers66]

Some of us do listen. ;) Although I disagree about the mares needing to be proven in sport. The best mares in Germany don't go to sport ... they are career broodmares. They may do a mare performance test or occassionally compete in the young horse classes, but their value is in what they produce. Typically, it is the mares that don't cut it that end up in sport. We try to practise the same. Our very best mares stay for a future in our herd.

[showjumpers66]

USHJA's new hunter futurity program.

What is the HDIF?

[selah]

To truly level the playing field, we must first ship a load of opossums to Europe...

[Bellfleur]

God NO! not even to level the playing field. As an owner who had to send a stallion to the 70 days test with an 80 day supply on Marquis and still watch him and wonder if his suspension would ever come back, I would not wish this on any horse.

I think we should get a vaccine or else possum coats should become super popular!

[Eventingjunkie]

I think we should get a vaccine or else possum coats should become super popular!

I just got home from a vacation in New Zealand, they make possum sweaters and coats and sell them for a lot of money to tourists.

[Florida Fan]

Showjumpers--as far as I'm concerned, the mares still have to have something to bring to the table. They have to be from some sort of producing damline. I have bought young racehorses out of sales for years.....I started in the 60's. Still for me, the Germans offer us the proven stallions, and they have done it for us. How easy!

[showjumpers66]

Hey, Bellfleur! Would have never recognized you by your sign-on. :D

I agree ... the families are of huge importance. We want to see that there is generation after generation of success in upper level sport in the mother line. Look at Uwe Bahlman's breeding program (stamm 776 - breeder of Ramiro and Acorado). His best mares are not in sport and yet he has one of the greatest mare families. We are very lucky to have a special mare from one of his best mares. Her value for us is in our broodmare band. That said, the mares who were "culled", the geldings, and stallions must prove the family line by being successful in sport. Unfortunately, it tends to be the exact opposite in the US ... the mares who could not cut it in sport or who were injured tend to become broodmares. Of course, there are exceptions to this.

[ne1]

showjumpers66 is right on in all her posts in this thread.

it starts with getting a better understanding of breeding. period. in the upper level jumper breeding done here, the level of understanding is sadly enormously deficient in many of the programs that can be seen here relative to europe, and even from the questions that are asked on here. not that they are stupid questions; they're not. but the answers are still debated here while they have been understood and successfuly implemented in germany and holland for years; generations of horses.

einstein said it is not the problem that is the problem, it is how to think about the problem which is the problem.

one example is exactly that raised.... how to consider the mares. typically folks here are bamboozled by blingy great european stallions - and i use more than my fair share too - but with little or no regard for the lineage, family and quality of the individual mares they put to these stallions. these mares do not have to have sport careers... they know in europe how to evaluate their mares and separate out those which will be career breeding horses from a very early age.

the issue of geographic mass of horses that can easily be seen after a flight over the pond, coupled with breeding programs which have not yet caught up to the production of many europeans means that both perception and reality will cause the status quo to remain for now.

usual disclaimner: bad european bred horses. yes. some goood american bred horses. yes. the challenge is not only seeing the big picture and the quantative trends that exist, but also the breeding methodology and understanding that drives those trends.

[Bellfleur]

Yeah Showjumpers But the 80 days supply of Marquis clued you in quick didn't it. He is a super cool ride for me now! Thanks always.

Bellfleur was the name of the farm I bought and it is still the property name.

Possum coats and hats sound good to me. Heck fur liner for just about anything. Hey don't they make felt out of fur. I would def be into a nice felt top hat with some dead possum. Revenge taken cold! Not sure but I kind of think they might smell badly when the fur gets wet! I might spend a lot of money a dog trained to hunt and kill them though!

I think in you are 100% correct in stating that the top mares in Germany are NOT entered in sport. They are kept for the broodmare bands. I have spoken with several of the breeders from Germany (older gentlemen) and they have always argued with me about the mares job when I say OH I want a special mare to ride and compete. They always try to convince me that the best mares are not for the top sport but for the broodmare bands.

The mare lines are treasured and kept for generations. The mare lines in Germany are passed down like land and house inheritances are here. They are even given as a treasured marriage gift.

Loretta was never a performance horse yet her sons were hugely important to Oldenburg.

I don't really think most people in the US look at the mare line much (it is getting way better though) regardless of the mares performance record. I have the GP mare Fancy Free who was FN ranked (I was told) 10th in the GP Special at 9 yrs of age in Germany before I imported her. This mare was considered brilliant in Germany and was well known there. That and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at starbucks :lol::lol::lol:

Her well publicized performance career has not created any more interest in her foals nor do the American's shopping here think they should pay more for the foals from this mare. The foals are excellent in any company too. One the Verband said "This is the foal of a lifetime for any breeder in any country". How many of those will I get.

Yet still multiple shoppers of foals compare the offspring of Fancy Free to the offspring of an OTT mare that was not even a good racehorse and wonder why I will not part with a filly from this mare for the same kind of price.

[MMacallister]

Interesting points about the mares in europe. I have full confidence in the intelligence and dedication of breeders in this country. I really think we can be equal or better than europe. Somedays I just wish we could all get on or even close to the same page. I really hope the USHJA program helps, and I would like to see more records kept on progeny of mares and stallions.
Think of all of the threads that say "what about this ottb's lines" and we can look at it and say well this one always threw level headed horses, or this one threw atheletic horses etc. and it is easily available online for all of us to disect.
I guess there are many things we need to work on but it is nice to know we are all thinking!

[showjumpers66]

For sure! I look at our hunter breeding program a bit differently than our jumper breeding program. With the jumpers, we almost exclusively use proven Holsteiner mother lines. With the hunters, we are trying to build our own mother lines based on TB mares. I really like the cross especially the 2nd & 3rd generation. I do see a consistent loss of scope in the gaits and jump with the 1st generation crosses ... good for the 3' to 3'6" hunters, but definately not what you want for the jumpers or dressage (there are always exceptions!). The only time I would find the F1 cross interesting for dressage or jumping is with an old fashioned warmblood mare who needs modernizing. But, you can breed the scope back in the next generations when you start with the right TB mare and make the right choices.

[stoicfish]

I don't really think most people in the US look at the mare line much (it is getting way better though) regardless of the mares performance record. I have the GP mare Fancy Free who was FN ranked (I was told) 10th in the GP Special at 9 yrs of age in Germany before I imported her. This mare was considered brilliant in Germany and was well known there. That and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at starbucks :lol::lol::lol:

Her well publicized performance career has not created any more interest in her foals nor do the American's shopping here think they should pay more for the foals from this mare. The foals are excellent in any company too. One the Verband said "This is the foal of a lifetime for any breeder in any country". How many of those will I get.

Yet still multiple shoppers of foals compare the offspring of Fancy Free to the offspring of an OTT mare that was not even a good racehorse and wonder why I will not part with a filly from this mare for the same kind of price.

A question. Why would a mare that is proven (say jumper) be worth less as a brood in comparison to a mare from a proven dam line?
(added: of course the quality of offspring is the main crteria, so if the sport mare, as in the example above produced well, shouldn't she be worth as much or more as a mare from a proven mare line that did not produce as well)

I agree about the importance of using a good mare as that is half of the equation. But I have trouble understanding why that mare has to come from a long line of a certain mare line. A great grand dam is one of 8 horses to contribute to that mare. Great great dam -1 of 16.

I know I sound like I am not respecting proven wisdom, but I have thought a lot about this and wonder if it is more to do with the people owning these mares being talented and knowledgeable breeders.
Stallions go to a range of mares (and breeders), but mares tend to be the accumulated knowledge of one breeder. And that breeder must make a good stallion choice each generation to keep producing mares that are good. By the 4th generation there have been 4 stallions choices that have contributed upwards of 93% of the genetic material to that mare.
If that farm has a high rate of success, they are able to attach a great value to those mares. The people buying invest accordingly in stallion choices and offspring training. It becomes self perpetuating.

It would be interesting to see how well imported mares from "those lines" do in less experienced hands here in NA.

Or conversely what 5 generations of good stallion choices will do to our Tb/non-premium mares?

[showjumpers66]

Because the value of a broodmare is in how she will produce. Success in sport makes no guarantee that she will reproduce it, but if she has the genetic predisposition to produce the qualities to suceed in sport, the odds are much higher.

Selective breeding is the key. If you get a chance, go visit a breeder such as Bahlman. Walk out into his mare pasture and every single one of those mares has quality stamped all over her. You have to get on his waiting list and basically purchase the foals in-utero.

It is tough to get your hands on the really great mares. The breeders never sell them unless they are not producing up to their standards. They are priceless to them. We bought ours young and rolled the dice.

Ideally, you want a mare who is the whole package ... gorgeous conformation and gaits plus the athletic ability and rideability for international sport. The consistent breeding by the farmers helps them to predict the athletic ability and rideabilty for international sport based on the production of the mother line. The mare is held back for the broodmare band based on her individual quality. The final decision to keep her there is based on the quality of her first offspring.

If a mare does go to sport, her prime breeding years are spent in training and competition. Especially if she is a maiden, she will be a poor reproductive candidate when she is retired. It is often not easy to get these mares in foal.

[why not]

The paradigm; In Europe the best mares do not compete in sport is to rigid. It depends on the model the breeder is using. There are breeders who strictly stick to breeding, sell some of their foals and continue the stemm. In Holstein there are several, knowing that the foals will sell based upon the quality of the stemm.
There are also breeders who breed, but have a rider bringing the horses into sport at the age of 4 or 5. They use the mares ath the age of 3 to raise a foal, sometimes two. The idea behind this model is that a good sporthorse at the age of 6 will bring more money then a foal or broodmare.

Just now in these hard times that is the only way here in europe to sell, the foalmarket is down, the market for yearlings, 2 and 3 years old was always very bad.

Then there is a third group of breeders bringing their mares into sport but they will return in the breedingshed after they have proven themselves in sport. Foals of these mares have more value than foals of unproven sportmares.

[TwinGates]

I think in you are 100% correct in stating that the top mares in Germany are NOT entered in sport. They are kept for the broodmare bands. I have spoken with several of the breeders from Germany (older gentlemen) and they have always argued with me about the mares job when I say OH I want a special mare to ride and compete. They always try to convince me that the best mares are not for the top sport but for the broodmare bands.

The mare lines are treasured and kept for generations. The mare lines in Germany are passed down like land and house inheritances are here. They are even given as a treasured marriage gift.


Absolutely right. There's a reason why as the oldest WB registry, the Trakehners use the first letter of the dam's name when registering foals.

A story that always sticks in my mind (for some reason I remember the source as legendary TK breeder, Gerhard Schickedanz - owner of the legendary mare Abiza, mother of Abdullah and Amiego) that was told at an ATA meeting goes like this:

While visiting a successful breeder friend in Germany, the two men stood in the pasture with all the mares & foals inspecting that year's crop. Mr Schickedanz asked, "how many broodmares do you have?" The breeder replied, "Oh about 32-33". Mr Schickedanz then asked, "Yes, but how many BROODMARES do you have?" Breeder replied: "Three". Mr Schickedanz asked "how much to buy one of THOSE mares". The friend just smiled.

Moral to the story: some incredible German stallions have been sold & imported to the states: Lingh, Rambo, Windfall, etc . . . but try getting a truly outstanding BROODMARE away from any successful breeder in Germany. Might as well be asking for one of his own daughters! :)

[Home Again Farm]

Ideally, you want a mare who is the whole package ... gorgeous conformation and gaits plus the athletic ability and rideability for international sport. The consistent breeding by the farmers helps them to predict the athletic ability and rideabilty for international sport based on the production of the mother line. The mare is held back for the broodmare band based on her individual quality. The final decision to keep her there is based on the quality of her first offspring.

Yes.

[Bellfleur]

UMMM I think the daughter might be easier to get ;);)

[bloomingtonfarm]

It is tough to get your hands on the really great mares. The breeders never sell them unless they are not producing up to their standards. They are priceless to them. We bought ours young and rolled the dice.

But yes sometime they do sell their great mares. These mares are very hard to find I agree, and when they do sell it's usually between known parties.

But in this period of economic hardship this might be the right time to find one of these mares as I did.

Now did I need another mare? Certainly not. Did I need another outstanding mare to add to my breeding program? Always!

I was not expecting to find a good 'deal' in term of price as these are the one who still hold their full value; they are certainly not cheap. But the economics and others circumstances may oblige some breeders to take some difficult decisions.

But then you have to be the first one to know, and this is not easy. I had this in mind when I went on to look for this kind of mare, so I knew I had to be creative in my search.

It took some time but when I found her, I bought her on the spot, sight unseen, full asking price. I knew this kind of mare wouldn't last a day on the market; she had everything any breeder would ever dream to own.

I don't want to brag but I can't help myself. I bought one of the best mare in Holland.

Now I just need a filly to keep hoping my luck will continue.

[MoSwanson]

This thread reminds me of a letter I received last week from a woman looking for a broodmare who said, "It seems we have similar tastes in horses, as I quickly observed all of my favorites are apparently yours too, and are not for sale!" I responded, "Thank you for your kind words about my breeding program. I am sorry that you feel your favorites are in my broodmare band and are therefore not available for you to buy. If I owned a manufacturing plant, no one would expect me to sell my manufacturing equipment (including any upgraded equipment). Maybe this isn’t the best analogy, but it is the best I can offer. My breeding business is based on the European model where my BEST mares (and I have some world class mares) are put in the broodmare band. Sometimes I keep a filly of desirable new blood, and sometimes I replace a mother with a daughter. This is the case with the mare you inquired about."
BTW, the dam of the young mare she inquired about is for sale, in foal to my homebred stallion who just won the 70 day test. She is available only because I have the daughter to replace her in my broodmare band.
The European model does exist in the US. I know plenty of breeders who are suffering through a bad economy, determined to keep their best mares for the future when the economy hopefully improves.
As stated many times on theis forum- the horse breeding business is not for the faint of heart.

[RyTimMick]

A question. Why would a mare that is proven (say jumper) be worth less as a brood in comparison to a mare from a proven dam line?
(added: of course the quality of offspring is the main crteria, so if the sport mare, as in the example above produced well, shouldn't she be worth as much or more as a mare from a proven mare line that did not produce as well)

I agree about the importance of using a good mare as that is half of the equation. But I have trouble understanding why that mare has to come from a long line of a certain mare line. A great grand dam is one of 8 horses to contribute to that mare. Great great dam -1 of 16.

I know I sound like I am not respecting proven wisdom, but I have thought a lot about this and wonder if it is more to do with the people owning these mares being talented and knowledgeable breeders.
Stallions go to a range of mares (and breeders), but mares tend to be the accumulated knowledge of one breeder. And that breeder must make a good stallion choice each generation to keep producing mares that are good. By the 4th generation there have been 4 stallions choices that have contributed upwards of 93% of the genetic material to that mare.
If that farm has a high rate of success, they are able to attach a great value to those mares. The people buying invest accordingly in stallion choices and offspring training. It becomes self perpetuating.

It would be interesting to see how well imported mares from "those lines" do in less experienced hands here in NA.

Or conversely what 5 generations of good stallion choices will do to our Tb/non-premium mares?

Great questions I think to ask. I would absolutely agree that the best mares in the wrong hands would not do as well. This is true. Primarly because when you buy a good mare you need to know how to breed her next generation and how to pick it. When she is done breeding so are the good foals. So, in this I agree, also because so few understand how to breed a WB for breeding instead of for sport.

However, you need a good mare from a good stamm(mareline) because you might want to double up on some of those "Blue Hen" mares in the future with good sex balanced linebreeding. If they are not in the motherline, then they are not as potent in my opinion. So when breeding back on the stamm, you will want the mare that gets doubled up on to be a prolific one. I use "Generation" as an example(her name is quite fitting isn't it). She is Landgraf/Ramiro/Ladalco stamm 318d1. Ladalco is also 318d1 which concentrates the blue hen mare Marietta(States Prem. Heidelberg Mare) She is the mother of 3 approved stallions and 2 daughters who had approved stallions. If you don't have a "Marietta" in the motherline, you can't do this kind of breeding. This is why they must come from a line of good mothers. If they are not there, you can not use them in the future.

but, to answer the posters question, we should find a way to have the breeders and riders work more closely together, like they do Europe. I also think we should have more focused breeders on the upper levels of Olympic sports, and not the ammy hunter market. That is if we want to see an improvement in our breeding efforts.

Tim

[TheOrangeOne]

As someone who is shopping on both sides of the pond, I have to say that here, there is not nearly the same depth of field as far as the quality. Maybe 1 in 10 horses here that I see are on the same level as 5 in 10 horses there. There are nice horses being bred here, just not many of them, and they're more expensive here. I don't think anyone goes to europe to get a horse who is already showing, you go there for the 40k four year old who moves and jumps great and has good basics. Rarely are these horses coming directly from the breeder, so I don't think US breeders need to focus on keeping them until they're going. I think that the breeding program here is based on Thoroughbred mares who were either not athletic enough to win at the track or who didn't hold up to running, which is where you are immediately having a problem. You would never breed a gorgeous, well bred warmblood mare who has a good record and a great jump to a TB stallion who didn't have what it takes as a racehorse in hopes of producing a nice hunter or jumper, so doing that with the sexes reversed is just insane, to me.

Edit: I also think there is a lot less focus on the bloodlines here, and more on the individual horses. To some degree, that is a great thing, but I think that a little more focus on the bloodlines would improve the quality of the foals.

[tuckawayfarm]

I think that the breeding program here is based on Thoroughbred mares who were either not athletic enough to win at the track or who didn't hold up to running, which is where you are immediately having a problem.

Who is helping you? I can think of very few breeders who follow that "program". I do agree that the Europeans are ahead of us on getting young horses started economically and you have much shorter distances to travel to see them. Is a good four year old here really priced so much higher than one in Europe that it is cheaper to import?

[TheOrangeOne]

Who is helping you? I can think of very few breeders who follow that "program". I do agree that the Europeans are ahead of us on getting young horses started economically and you have much shorter distances to travel to see them. Is a good four year old here really priced so much higher than one in Europe that it is cheaper to import?

I think the average COTH breeder is not the average breeder in the US. If all the COTHers put their young horses together, I think there would be much higher quality than if you grabbed the same number of breeders together who were more of a random sampling. Also, I see more nice jumper types or dressage types here than hunters, which I could not begin to explain.

[TwinGates]

UMMM I think the daughter might be easier to get ;);)

Which is exactly what I did! Both my foundation mares are daughters of (now Elite) mares from proven dam lines who had produced daughters that in turn were producing exceptional sport horses. ;) ;)

[RyTimMick]

As someone who is shopping on both sides of the pond, I have to say that here, there is not nearly the same depth of field as far as the quality. Maybe 1 in 10 horses here that I see are on the same level as 5 in 10 horses there. There are nice horses being bred here, just not many of them, and they're more expensive here. I don't think anyone goes to europe to get a horse who is already showing, you go there for the 40k four year old who moves and jumps great and has good basics. Rarely are these horses coming directly from the breeder, so I don't think US breeders need to focus on keeping them until they're going. I think that the breeding program here is based on Thoroughbred mares who were either not athletic enough to win at the track or who didn't hold up to running, which is where you are immediately having a problem. You would never breed a gorgeous, well bred warmblood mare who has a good record and a great jump to a TB stallion who didn't have what it takes as a racehorse in hopes of producing a nice hunter or jumper, so doing that with the sexes reversed is just insane, to me.

Edit: I also think there is a lot less focus on the bloodlines here, and more on the individual horses. To some degree, that is a great thing, but I think that a little more focus on the bloodlines would improve the quality of the foals.

I agree with you on many of your points. The concentration of quality and athleticism is much greater there, and not many understand the breeding. In one day on my trip to Germany last year, I had lunch with the breeder of Ramiro and Acorado, and then had dinner with the breeder of Capitol and Cero. It was very humbling to see that level of quality in such a small geo. area. To limit these two great breeders to only those 4 horses doesn't do them justice. However, there are a few clusters of mares here that are of similar quality and are being bred as they would be in Germany. PM me if you searching on both sides of pond, I am practically your neighbor.

Tim
Orange, VA

[stoicfish]

RyTimMick,
Thank you for a great explanation.
It also points out how important the accumulation of certain genetics is to Holstein breeding. And how those genetics are so valuable in part because of the familiarity the breeders have them.
Hanoverians have a wider gene base and a bit of a different paradigm (more vigor), it seems.

[Roxy SM]

Which is exactly what I did! Both my foundation mares are daughters of (now Elite) mares from proven dam lines who had produced daughters that in turn were producing exceptional sport horses. ;) ;)

I think they meant human daughters!

[MoSwanson]

I don't know where this notion of "everything is better in Europe" comes from. I have slopped through manure and looked at a LOT of crappy German (and Dutch) horses, and seen my fair share of really bad riding there. If you go to the big farms in Europe, you will see a higher quality horse population than what is out in the general population. And, yes, there are some top quality smaller breeders there. But wait! If you go to the big farms in the US, you will see a higher quality than what is out in the general horse population. But wait! There are some top quality smaller breeders here too! The normal exposure of Americans to European breeding does not include exposure to the average farm there. Americans usually see big/famous farms and big/famous auctions when shopping in Europe.
Serious breeders here in the US have been importing top quality breeding stock for years now (why would you go to the expense to import low quality?...), and we have access to frozen semen from the best stallions there. There are also some really good imported and domestically bred stallions here that just don't appear as good because the owners are lacking in massive media exposure/glossy brochures and professionally made video online. Honestly, I think the AVERAGE OVERALL QUALITY of GOV, Hanoverian and Dutch horses is higher here in the US than in Europe, at least among breeders who do their homework and maintain reasonable quality standards. This does not include breeders who take OTTB's and use them without quality control. (For the record, I LOVE a high quality TB). We just don't have the huge numbers and we lack the concentration of horses geographically. If we had professionally run selective auctions and venues to compare our horses with theirs, I'd bet you'd agree with me. Unfortunately, that is what we are missing here- comparable auction facilities and sales facilities, and powerhouses of media from breed organizations telling the world how great our horses are here. In the US, there is also a disconnect between the breeder and the professional rider/trainer.

[YankeeLawyer]

I don't know where this notion of "everything is better in Europe" comes from. I have slopped through manure and looked at a LOT of crappy German (and Dutch) horses, and seen my fair share of really bad riding there. If you go to the big farms in Europe, you will see a higher quality horse population than what is out in the general population. And, yes, there are some top quality smaller breeders there. But wait! If you go to the big farms in the US, you will see a higher quality than what is out in the general horse population. But wait! There are some top quality smaller breeders here too! The normal exposure of Americans to European breeding does not include exposure to the average farm there. Americans usually see big/famous farms and big/famous auctions when shopping in Europe.
Serious breeders here in the US have been importing top quality breeding stock for years now (why would you go to the expense to import low quality?...), and we have access to frozen semen from the best stallions there. There are also some really good imported and domestically bred stallions here that just don't appear as good because the owners are lacking in massive media exposure/glossy brochures and professionally made video online. Honestly, I think the AVERAGE OVERALL QUALITY of GOV, Hanoverian and Dutch horses is higher here in the US than in Europe, at least among breeders who do their homework and maintain reasonable quality standards. This does not include breeders who take OTTB's and use them without quality control. (For the record, I LOVE a high quality TB). We just don't have the huge numbers and we lack the concentration of horses geographically. If we had professionally run selective auctions and venues to compare our horses with theirs, I'd bet you'd agree with me. Unfortunately, that is what we are missing here- comparable auction facilities and sales facilities, and powerhouses of media from breed organizations telling the world how great our horses are here. In the US, there is also a disconnect between the breeder and the professional rider/trainer.

Yes!

In some respects, I think it is futile to try to convince people who have their heart set on shopping in Europe to buy here. I think those buyers are a small percentage of the market, but as far as I am concerned, let them buy in Europe and once they are tired of spending an additional 7K to 10K for import and a premium for a poor exchange rate, they might think about buying their next one here.

I shop here and in Europe and buy the best available at the time regardless of geography, but there has to be a really compelling reason for me to buy abroad because I know too many breeders here who have fantastic horses within driving distance of my farm. I have some really nice horses, including some purchased at the Elite auctions in Germany, but the top horse in my barn currently was born and bred less than 3 miles away and, at the time I bought her, was superior to any filly I saw with similar bloodlines in Germany.

[YankeeLawyer]

Rarely are these horses coming directly from the breeder, so I don't think US breeders need to focus on keeping them until they're going.

I disagree because, unfortunately, in the US too often the unstarted youngster is not started properly (if at all) by the buyer who buys directly from the breeder. It is difficult even to find someone competent at starting horses. We also do not have a network of baby raisers who buy and start them here.

In addition, I have found that many buyers do not know how to evaluate unstarted youngsters, particularly foals, so for the best ones to be fully appreciated it may make more sense to hold onto them until they are started.

[Bellfleur]

YL

I got a pretty good rider to start my young Fancy Free babies this year didn't I!! Thanks to SHOWJUMPERS66 that is!!

He is just visiting for a while and helping and getting to show some nice stuff but I am going to try to make him a permanent addition to Riverside!! He will get to compete Sinatra Song and probably Reiner (unless I try Yeah Right!)this year. I am pretty excited!!

[SilverBalls]

I don't know where this notion of "everything is better in Europe" comes from. If you go to the big farms in Europe, you will see a higher quality horse population than what is out in the general population. And, yes, there are some top quality smaller breeders there. But wait! If you go to the big farms in the US, you will see a higher quality than what is out in the general horse population. But wait! There are some top quality smaller breeders here too!
The normal exposure of Americans to European breeding does not include exposure to the average farm there. Americans usually see big/famous farms and big/famous auctions when shopping in Europe.
Serious breeders here in the US have been importing top quality breeding stock for years now (why would you go to the expense to import low quality?...), and we have access to frozen semen from the best stallions there.

I wholeheartedly agree!

I am also going to add another issue to the equation. I have observed horses that I know without a doubt were born and bred here in North America... are being sold as imports. :eek: Customers are told the breeeding is unknown! What a slap in the face to the North American breeders. :o

BTW Mo... Goodie is doing awesome!

[RyTimMick]

UMMM I think the daughter might be easier to get ;);)


They will absolutely not sell their good mares, but they will sell you daughters out of those good mothers. When you know the breeders, and which one of their mares are producing the best, and who they have been bred to you can get those fillies. For instance, I have access to the full sibling to Casiro I and II. Now, if I wait until it is 3 months old, it will be gone. I do not need to see if it is a good one, because I have a relationship with the breeder and they will let me know when it is born. I know the dam, I have seen her offspring, and know what I would be getting. If you do not know the mareline, you would not be able to tell if it is a good one or not. If you wait until it is older, it will be either sold or not for sale. I can not wait until Oct. to make up my mind. Just remember, they will sell their best foals, just not their best mares.

Tim

[YankeeLawyer]

I wholeheartedly agree!

I am also going to add another issue to the equation. I have observed horses that I know without a doubt were born and bred here in North America... are being sold as imports. :eek: Customers are told the breeeding is unknown! What a slap in the face to the North American breeders. :o
!


I have noticed this also with one high profile seller in particular who also does act as an agent on a number of true imports. But somehow her US bred horses are also "imports" when I know full well they were born *here.*

[ne1]

...so in this there seems a cultural issue.... prehaps the hardest of all kinds of issue to resolve.

it is the same with auctions, as we've seen recently and for a long time. i do not agree that a marketing machine would have improved october hills sale results.... they did masses of advertising about it and had recogniseable names throughout their pedigrees. the 'culture' here is different to europe... there it is seen as the marketplace at which to take the opportunity to acquire top prospects. here, if its in an auction there is obviously something wrong with it.

fortunately for me, there are jumper riders who do not really care what brand nor origin a horse has, as long as it can jump. as long as the genetics work for me in the breeding shed as i try to get them to, there are people interested in horses with super jump.

[Bellfleur]

Ok I got Loretta's first daughter by Karon over here but ONLY because a good friend of mine who is German was home visiting and her MOM had played bridge with the breeder (owner of Loretta and the breeder of Sandro Hit, Diamond Hit and Royal Hit!) for years. She happened to mention to him that her daughter was looking for some good broodmares. He said well I have this one that was my granddaughters but we might part with her now. She is not on the market yet. My friend went and looked at her called me and we made the asking price that day!

That is the only way I ended up with a mare like this one.

[Oakstable]

Photos of Loretta's daughter, pls!

[Bellfleur]

She shares my FaceBook photo with me!

She was the Mature Horse Champion for the Oldenburg HS at 18 yrs of age. Every colt she has produced has been a stallion prospect. All her daughters have also been premium. Her young daughter Dresden Hit with olympian Leslie Law was 4th in the young Horse Eventing Championships this past year. Her one colt was Reserve Champion Horse of the Year. Her other son was named Champion Colt from the two day inspection at High Point last year. She produces stunning athletic foals with wonderful trainable minds and very correct conformation no matter which stallion I have chosen to bred her to. I am probably raising her last years colt as a stallion to keep for myself. She is expecting a foal by Furst Romancier this year. I have not selected a stallion for 2010 yet.

[Oakstable]

Bellfleur,
Thank you.
What's the URL for your web site?

What a great mare!

[RyTimMick]

Bellfleur, she looks beautiful. Your story is great, but rare at best. I hope you continue to breed your mare well. We will all be cheering you on as fellow breeders.

Tim

[Roxy SM]

They will absolutely not sell their good mares, but they will sell you daughters out of those good mothers. When you know the breeders, and which one of their mares are producing the best, and who they have been bred to you can get those fillies. For instance, I have access to the full sibling to Casiro I and II. Now, if I wait until it is 3 months old, it will be gone. I do not need to see if it is a good one, because I have a relationship with the breeder and they will let me know when it is born. I know the dam, I have seen her offspring, and know what I would be getting. If you do not know the mareline, you would not be able to tell if it is a good one or not. If you wait until it is older, it will be either sold or not for sale. I can not wait until Oct. to make up my mind. Just remember, they will sell their best foals, just not their best mares.

Tim

Again I think the poster was saying that the breeders would sooner sell their human human daughters than their best mares. hehe

[Bellfleur]

my web site is www.RiversideEquestrian.org I love this mare dearly. I was seriously trying to get out of breeding but what does one do with a mare like this one? I cannot stand the thought of her standing around open. Her genetics are too precious to lose. Plus she loves having her foals. She is still in great health and I think the foals keep her that way. I think when she is finished she will let me know. She is a once on a lifetime find. All of her children are so much fun. A top well respected German breeder once said to me about her "you could breed that one to a donkey and get a stallion prospect" pretty funny considering it would be sterile!

Feel free to make suggestions for stallions. The only thing she needs is to be a bit taller. otherwise she is perfect. The short list is again try with Sinatra Song for a filly line bred back to Loretta (she has given me two colts in a row from this cross)or Katrin suggested Blue Hors Romanov.

Yes I was definitely saying it would be easier to get the human daughter than the treasured broodmares!

[YankeeLawyer]

Feel free to make suggestions for stallions. The only thing she needs is to be a bit taller. otherwise she is perfect. The short list is again try with Sinatra Song for a filly line bred back to Loretta (she has given me two colts in a row from this cross)or Katrin suggested Blue Hors Romanov.

Romanov. If you linebreed, I would use Stedinger.

[Bellfleur]

YL Question?? Why would you pick Stedinger for her instead of Sinatra Song. My opinion only but I think Sinatra has a tad quicker hind leg and he has a better walk.

The other reason is that I personally have a tendency to love the Pik Bube blood. I do also like Landadel however just not so much. Also the Pik Bube has a bit bigger bone and more size for this mare.

The there is the cost of frozen ( and the cost of vet work and the attendant risks of no pregnancy) and the fact that I would get a live foal guarantee with Sinatra.

Don't get me wrong here I do love Stedinger offspring very much. I saw a coming 3 yr old here in my indoor today and he was simply breathtaking. However he had a much bigger dam. I do tend to think of Stedinger as a refining sire so not sure for this mare if it would work as well.

The two Sinatra colts I got from her are unbelievably nice. They only had the one major drawback and that was they were boys.

I am seriously considering Romanov but I have not seen any of his offspring and then there is the semen from Blue Hors again. If I have a supplier I can trust I may try one or two doses of it just not sure at this point.

i was considering Ferro but heard temperament could be an issue.

well she foals late this year so I have time still. Too bad she is too small for Reiner!

[dianehalpin]

As a very small Hanoverian breeder (think German farmer), i've thought so much about how all US breeders of European warmbloods can (eventually) successfully compete with that very well-organized and promoted European market. It seems one large problem isn't just the huge size of North America: It is very much a problem that here the breeders of Hanoverians, Holsteiners, Dutch-Danish-Belgian Warmbloods, etc. are scattered across the nation, whereas, in Germany for example, even though some of the studbooks are "open", the various regional breeds are strengthened by competing against EACH OTHER.
Also, the European sales, stallion parades, and other promotions are very stable and stick to the same dates regardless of the state of the economy. They can be depended upon and looked forward to!
Too, the preparation of young riding horses is pretty well established as they are prepared for licensing, inspections, competitions, and sales.
Also, as everyone on this thread has discussed in pretty good detail, the European mare base is given much thought and attention so it seems to me that if we are to compete successfully we have to continually improve our mare base,
always evaluating their product and culling when needed.
We (me especially) need web sites that tie the mares to the stallions to the get, need to detail on our web pages each mare's production history and follow the progress of her babies' competition histories, need to keep the web pages updated and interesting. I've spent the winter visiting so many breeders' web sites and have seen how many good foals were sold AS FOALS on web pages that were set up well. It seems that if our babies aren't sold as foals, we set ourselves up for keeping them until they start under saddle and beyond. That's an expensive investment because the really good money doen't come until they hit the shows in performance classes and do it successfully. Most of us can't keep breeding if we hold on to our "product" that long.
Also, it would be so wonderful to have well-established elite warmblood auctions maybe twice a year in each region of the US, maybe once a year for elite foals (Fall, after weaning?) and once a year for elite riding horses (early Spring, as show season starts?). If the auctions were truly elite, the best of the best 100 or so foals hand-picked by inspectors with no political axes to grind, ditto for young dressage, jumpers, hunters, and this was done CONSISTENTLY regionally, with a lot of fanfare, maybe buyers would get over the idea that US auction sales were distress sales. I know that Wellington, for instance, is one big sales arena all winter and that Nona Garson has held her premium sale there (perfect place and time) and I don't think anyone ever thinks of this particular auction as a "Distress Sale"! But I could be wrong!
Also, as the dressage breeders have their Made in the USA cash high-score awards at DAD, it would be wonderful to have top Grand Prix jumpers and Hunter Derby winners be recognized as being "Made in the USA".
Didn't mean to run on, but I think we can strengthen our organization as breeders if we at least think about how we're competing not as well as we could with Europe and begin to think of ways this might be improved!

[YankeeLawyer]

YL Question?? Why would you pick Stedinger for her instead of Sinatra Song. My opinion only but I think Sinatra has a tad quicker hind leg and he has a better walk.

The other reason is that I personally have a tendency to love the Pik Bube blood. I do also like Landadel however just not so much. Also the Pik Bube has a bit bigger bone and more size for this mare.

The there is the cost of frozen ( and the cost of vet work and the attendant risks of no pregnancy) and the fact that I would get a live foal guarantee with Sinatra.

Don't get me wrong here I do love Stedinger offspring very much. I saw a coming 3 yr old here in my indoor today and he was simply breathtaking. However he had a much bigger dam. I do tend to think of Stedinger as a refining sire so not sure for this mare if it would work as well.

The two Sinatra colts I got from her are unbelievably nice. They only had the one major drawback and that was they were boys.

I am seriously considering Romanov but I have not seen any of his offspring and then there is the semen from Blue Hors again. If I have a supplier I can trust I may try one or two doses of it just not sure at this point.

i was considering Ferro but heard temperament could be an issue.

well she foals late this year so I have time still. Too bad she is too small for Reiner!

Stedinger reliably adds height; I disagree re the hind leg and walk and personally I love Landadel, but if you prefer Pik Bube go that route. The top Stedinger offspring are hard to beat (look at Ann Kitchel's Statesman). Also, your mare has passed on good jumping ability (or at least does not take away from it) and the Stedingers can jump well. You should see Simba. At 10 months he still has yet to go through any wonky stages.
Re frozen - you have a good vet and the Stedinger semen is excellent. We got 2 pregnancies with 2 doses and one was a maiden. We have Simba's full sib due March 20th. It was much less expensive for me to use the frozen than it was to pay for fresh with an LFG (as I did for Rousseau the same year for my other mare).

[DownYonder]

Terry, your Karon-Loretta mare is a very rare jewel amongst North American dressage broodmares. How lucky you are to have her. I agree with Katrin about the Romanov suggestion - that sounds very intriguing!

Have you considered any of the Dutch stallions (just to do something different)? You mentioned concerns about the Ferro temperament, but if you are willing to consider Stedinger, I would think Ferro would be okay. Yes, I know there are breeders on this forum who will argue ninety ways to Sunday about the impeccable temperaments of THEIR Stedinger offspring, but it was a big red flag to me when I asked a half dozen GERMAN breeders what they thought, and every single one responded something to the effect of "Spectacular offspring but not for the amateur or the faint at heart". :lol:

What about the Ferro son, Rousseau? Or the Rousseau son, Ampere? Or - again if you are willing to consider a bit of a firecracker - Jazz?

[YankeeLawyer]

Terry, your Karon-Loretta mare is a very rare jewel amongst North American dressage broodmares. How lucky you are to have her. I agree with Katrin about the Romanov suggestion - that sounds very intriguing!

Have you considered any of the Dutch stallions (just to do something different)? You mentioned concerns about the Ferro temperament, but if you are willing to consider Stedinger, I would think Ferro would be okay. Yes, I know there are breeders on this forum who will argue ninety ways to Sunday about the impeccable temperaments of THEIR Stedinger offspring, but it was a big red flag to me when I asked a half dozen GERMAN breeders what they thought, and every single one responded something to the effect of "Spectacular offspring but not for the amateur or the faint at heart". :lol:

What about the Ferro son, Rousseau? Or the Rousseau son, Ampere? Or - again if you are willing to consider a bit of a firecracker - Jazz?

DY, please by all means you are more than welcome to come to my farm and meet a Stedinger in person. I have never had a horse so easy, kind, and laid back as my Stedinger. Of course, he does have a wonderful dam but Bellefleur's mare is also lovely. And I do not think Terry indicated anything about considering Stedinger - that was my suggestion (and since she does know my horses I don't need to convince her about temperament). Respectfully, you would probably get frustrated also if your firsthand experience with a particular bloodline was discounted or dismissed out of hand by someone who simply heard someone else's opinion - which itself may or may not be based on firsthand knowledge. It is really annoying, particularly when I am among the first to say a horse is not appropriate for amateurs. And frankly, I think it is indefensible to make damaging statements about particular stallions unless you do have firsthand experience with the offspring.

By the way, my family is German, so I must be right :)

[Bellfleur]

While I tend to agree with YL, her Stedinger could not have a sweeter or more trainable disposition in addition to the fact that he is a brilliant mover and does posses good jumping skills at a very early age. However the mare is special and one cannot discount that.

I do listen to rumors about a certain stallion. Simba is quite spectacular and he does jump. In this situation where there is smoke there may be fire then again it might be smoke and mirrors. I do think in the disposition department the mare is a huge component so maybe the ones heard of are not contributing the best disposition. I will say without being there and meeting the dam as well as the sire that I would not rule out a particular stallion.

It is hard for me to choose another Sandro Hit son over Sinatra Song with the foals he has produced for me to date. The two I got in 2008 one filly and one colt were named Champion Filly and Champion Colt of their two day inspection. One of his first foals was also a filly of mine out of my GP mare Fancy Free. The Verband said about her at her inspection quote "this is a foal of a lifetime for any breeder in any country". She is coming 3 in August of this year and she is just going to be spectacular. All of the Sinatra's I have gotten have had stellar minds and are pretty easy. Fancy Free herself is a bit of a hot one so the sweetness and trainability is def. coming from Sinatra. I also had a very famous German breeder come to visit my farm last year and he said about one on my Sinatra Song fillies that "she is the nicest foal I have seen in the US". With this type of feedback is hard for me to argue with breeding back to him over and over again. Plus he adds size and bone both of which are requirements for Kalimera.

To say nothing of the fact that I dearly love the stallion in person. He is a doll to have and handle and brilliant! It is hard to compare one standing in your barn to one that I have only seen on video. As I said before I do love Pik Bube blood.

On Romanov I feel like Loretta's least famous son would be Royal Hit so I am not sure about the nick to the R line however I love Romanov's dam line. I am not really an Inschallah fan at all but it is pretty far back so it should be diluted.

Kalimera's foals so far are exceptionally trainable so maybe I would not have to worry about one like Jazz either. Have not had a one yet that I would not ride so I think they make up ok into amateur horses ok as well as brilliant for a top professional.

Anyhow all stallion thoughts and opinions are always welcome. After having Katrin say how important this mare is in NA I am a little YIKES what if I don't select the right stallion esp. now that she is getting up there in age.

[Oakstable]

What don't you like about Inschallah?

And how old is your great mare?

[YankeeLawyer]

Kalimera's foals so far are exceptionally trainable so maybe I would not have to worry about one like Jazz either. Have not had a one yet that I would not ride so I think they make up ok into amateur horses ok as well as brilliant for a top professional.

Anyhow all stallion thoughts and opinions are always welcome. After having Katrin say how important this mare is in NA I am a little YIKES what if I don't select the right stallion esp. now that she is getting up there in age.

I would ideally want to try ET with her (while in fantasyland, just go with it) and would like to try a horse like Jazz with her.


I was thinking about this thread while stuck in traffic this morning and ultimately decided that the concern about temperament is a bit misplaced here because Bellfleur herself is an excellent rider, her clients are good riders, and her spectacular mare is not one that you pick to carry and produce the next bombproof children's hunter for the simple reason that it would be a huge waste of talent, imo, to use her in that role. She is one I would pick to try to produce a world class horse, and last I checked pros can handle and often prefer a little spice in their horses. Olympic level horses tend not to be "amateur" rides in the true sense of the phrase. I think it is important to focus on what it is exactly that you are trying to produce.

[DownYonder]

DY, please by all means you are more than welcome to come to my farm and meet a Stedinger in person. I have never had a horse so easy, kind, and laid back as my Stedinger. Of course, he does have a wonderful dam but Bellefleur's mare is also lovely. And I do not think Terry indicated anything about considering Stedinger - that was my suggestion (and since she does know my horses I don't need to convince her about temperament). Respectfully, you would probably get frustrated also if your firsthand experience with a particular bloodline was discounted or dismissed out of hand by someone who simply heard someone else's opinion - which itself may or may not be based on firsthand knowledge. It is really annoying, particularly when I am among the first to say a horse is not appropriate for amateurs. And frankly, I think it is indefensible to make damaging statements about particular stallions unless you do have firsthand experience with the offspring.

By the way, my family is German, so I must be right :)

YL – I am sure your Stedinger is a fantastic horse. You are indeed lucky to have such a wonderful youngster.

However, I must respectfully disagree with your statement that no one should be allowed to comment on a horse if they don’t have direct knowledge. I am fairly frequently asked about various stallions by mare owners. My comments are based on both direct observation from past years, as well as comments from people I know and trust, many of whom have vast experience with WB breeding and have a LOT of knowledge and direct experience with offspring of the stallions in question.

So, FWIW, I have over the past several years heard these comments about Stedinger offspring. Some of these are direct quotes taken from their emails. Some are somewhat paraphrased but are pretty true to the actual conversations.

“They are super athletic but can be quite hot - very reactive and rather explosive.”

“They are too easily overstiimulated and cannot be depended on except in a very quiet and familiar environment.”

“They were afraid to take him for the main licensing because they were worried he would jump into the crowd.”

“The Stedinger is the most athletic horse I have ever produced. Period. But I could not wait to sell her. She is now three, has had two owners, in a very good professional's hands and I get monthly calls about her progress. They still do not let the groom handle her, she is a bundle of nerves. Can cow kick and strike at the same time. Afraid of her own shadow. Affectionate, tries to be good, but unable to help herself.”

“This mare is a third generation homebred, and this is her third foal. I can and will vouch for the quiet and friendly temperaments of this mare line, and of this mare’s previous foals by other stallions. THIS foal (by Stedinger) is the first from this mare line to show this level of shyness and sensitivity. He is a sweet boy and came around with a lot of quiet, consistent handling, but I sell my colts and need very outgoing, people-friendly foals. I do not think I will use Stedinger again.”

“I was cautioned about Stedinger by someone who has used him several times and very much likes her foals but will admit they can be tricky to handle as youngsters. She keeps breeding to him because she thinks he puts incredibly talented foals on the ground, but she has access to exceptional foal raisers and young horse specialists. My foals are home raised and I have no interest in taking chances with complicated or difficult personalities, esp. since I never keep colts - everything I put on the ground must have a sellable temperament.”

“My Stedingers are among the best I have produced in 20 years of breeding. If they can survive their young horse years without blowing a gasket and are brought along by the right trainers, they will be sensational in the y/h classes.”

“The Stedinger was an outstanding stallion prospect but was too high strung in temperament. He has a great pedigree, excellent conformation, spectacular gaits (including a pretty darned good walk), and tremendous presence and charisma. Everything about him said “STALLION” and I had no doubt he would get licensed if he was correctly prepped by the right person. However, I could not find such a person in my neck of the woods and I was unwilling to send him thousands of miles away. I also do not believe he would have made it through the first few weeks of a stallion performance test without having a major meltdown, so I gelded him. He is being started this winter by a very good young horse starter who would not take him as a stallion but was willing to accept him as a gelding. He told me that he has never seen a horse with such innate talent but believes it will be quite a few years before he is settled enough in his mind to be dependable in the show ring. He will go along fine for days or weeks, but if there is any change in his routine or his surroundings, he has a panic attack. We were hoping to do the young horse classes with him, but he will need to do a lot of growing up mentally in the next few years before he is ready for prime time.”

At any rate, I imagine Terry (Bellfleur) can make up her mind as to whether she wants to try Stedinger with her mare. She may get lucky like you did and get a foal with an exceptional temperament. If she does, it could well be worth a gold mine.

Oh, and BTW - my mother's family is German.

[YankeeLawyer]

DY, really, I do think you have crossed the line and it is not the first time you have been asked politely to consider what you write based on hearsay about a stallion's reputation. It is unacceptable to post "quotes" that apparently really are not even quotes at all from other people. Seriously, I am sure the Sosaths would be thrilled.

And I am TIRED of having to waste time refuting misinformation like this time and time again to clients who express interest in my horses, and then it literally takes hours of discussion and/or emails back in forth in some cases to overcome statements they have read here - none of which based on firsthand information. Do you really think I am such an idiot that I would invest tens of thousands of dollars to produce fire-breathing dragons? And as to that woman who could not handle her Stedinger mare - I would venture a guess that the horse's upbringing and/or dam had quite a lot to do with that attitude.

And really, it is absurd to state emphatically that because you spoke to six "GERMAN" people, but of course they must know better.

[DownYonder]

On Romanov I feel like Loretta's least famous son would be Royal Hit so I am not sure about the nick to the R line however I love Romanov's dam line. I am not really an Inschallah fan at all but it is pretty far back so it should be diluted.

Kalimera's foals so far are exceptionally trainable so maybe I would not have to worry about one like Jazz either. Have not had a one yet that I would not ride so I think they make up ok into amateur horses ok as well as brilliant for a top professional.

Anyhow all stallion thoughts and opinions are always welcome. After having Katrin say how important this mare is in NA I am a little YIKES what if I don't select the right stallion esp. now that she is getting up there in age.

Terry, I agree with you about Royal Hit, however he had two major strikes against him. He had a slow hindleg, and he was the wrong color. The Germans (particularly Oldenburg breeders) will use a chestnut dressage stallion if he is a super mover, but not one with a slow hindleg.

You might want to take a look at the newly imported Sir Donnerhall son, Sir Gregory. Yes, he is young with no foals on the ground, but there are some very knowledgeable and experienced people who believe he could well be one of the very best dressage stallions to come to N.A. in quite some time. ;)

I do still think you should try Jazz with your mare. Heck, try Stedinger with her. I agree with YL that you are well situated to deal with "hot" youngsters. You would no doubt get something quite brilliant from those stallions.

[DownYonder]

DY, really, I do think you have crossed the line and it is not the first time you have been asked politely to consider what you write based on hearsay about a stallion's reputation. It is unacceptable to post "quotes" that apparently really are not even quotes at all from other people. Seriously, I am sure the Sosaths would be thrilled.

And I am TIRED of having to waste time refuting misinformation like this time and time again to clients who express interest in my horses, and then it literally takes hours of discussion and/or emails back in forth in some cases to overcome statements they have read here - none of which based on firsthand information. Do you really think I am such an idiot that I would invest tens of thousands of dollars to produce fire-breathing dragons? And as to that woman who could not handle her Stedinger mare - I would venture a guess that the horse's upbringing and/or dam had quite a lot to do with that attitude.

And really, it is absurd to state emphatically that because you spoke to six "GERMAN" people, but of course they must know better.

Oh my. Do you really think I am such an idiot that I am to believe that just because YOU have a wonderful Stedinger youngster, that everyone else I have talked to doesn't know what they are talking about? Sorry, but I put far more stock in observations from long time breeders - many of whom are in Germany or have stock in Germany - than in ONE American breeder.

And no matter what you want to believe - my comments WERE quotes (I still have many of the emails). And the woman who could not handle her Stedinger mare is not some inexperienced back yard breeder. She is a LONG TIME breeder who has put MANY foal crops on the ground, and I imagine they are all raised pretty much the same.

[stoicfish]

Not that this subject has much to do with the original topic, but I appreciate all points of view on stallions. It does not mean that I take any one point of view/post verbatim but it is something one can check out. There are people here that own stallions/offspring that have a vested interest in only positive statements. But there are also potential buyers/breeders that deserve to be able exchange information. If the information is not accurate, this can come out also. The point is that people are allowed to express their experiences. Back to the OP, that is one way we will be able to improve the overall knowledge of the NA breeder/buyer.
And to be honest if reading a post on this forum forms a decided opinion for someone, they are not really acquainted with the topic or interested in educating themselves about a particular horse. It would especially surprise me that any one riding at a higher level of the sport would not use their own experiences on the subject anyway.

http://www.pure-arabians.com/Arabian%20Farms/Sales/saleslst.htm
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php?Number=3519529
http://www.vera-fuerst.de/Dressage-Horses/sir-walter-by-stedinger.html
http://www.waterviewpark.com.au/forsale.htm

These took 2 minutes to find. They show both experiences.

[YankeeLawyer]

Not that this subject has much to do with the original topic, but I appreciate all points of view on stallions. It does not mean that I take any one point of view/post verbatim but it is something one can check out. There are people here that own stallions/offspring that have a vested interest in only positive statements.

http://www.pure-arabians.com/Arabian%20Farms/Sales/saleslst.htm

And that is part of my problem - that people might presume that as an owner I have some vested interest or agenda while someone who has NEVER owned or sat on such a horse would be a more credible source based on rumors. People do say absolutely outrageous things on this board and I will speak up when I see that happen, just as I challenge stallion owners when they make claims which I know are exaggerated or untrue.

[RyTimMick]

Not that this subject has much to do with the original topic, but I appreciate all points of view on stallions. It does not mean that I take any one point of view/post verbatim but it is something one can check out. There are people here that own stallions/offspring that have a vested interest in only positive statements. But there are also potential buyers/breeders that deserve to be able exchange information. If the information is not accurate, this can come out also. The point is that people are allowed to express their experiences. Back to the OP, that is one way we will be able to improve the overall knowledge of the NA breeder/buyer.
And to be honest if reading a post on this forum forms a decided opinion for someone, they are not really acquainted with the topic or interested in educating themselves about a particular horse. It would especially surprise me that any one riding at a higher level of the sport would not use their own experiences on the subject anyway.

http://www.pure-arabians.com/Arabian%20Farms/Sales/saleslst.htm

Great post! When visiting in Germany many breeders talk openly about how the stallions breed so they can best choose the right stallion for their mares. I do believe we over here in NA need to do better with the flow of information, and not be so thin skinned. We should also be careful not to splurt unfounded truths all over the WWW. Yes it is true that stallion owners have much invested, but they should not get into stallion ownership if they can't handle objective criticism. Us mare owners get it every year at inspection time, your mare needs a little more of this, and a little more of that. We are told what type of stallions would work well to improve those things. Stallion owners would benefit from learning what mares do best with their stallions. Then their get will have greater success. Not all of us are breeding for the same level of sport, so we should be thoughful not to be so general when making statements. What makes a ISH does not make an ammy ride, and vice versa. Spirited for the ammy rider might be perfect for the professional rider. As with all of us, we offer our opinions, and that is all they are. The show ring is the referee that sorts through all of this crap. Nothing is an absolute, and breeding is sometimes about risk reduction. So, I leave you wil this last consideration, Calando I was one of the best jumping broodmare sires of our lifetime. His daughters have produced Carthago, Canturo, Cascavelle, Lord Calando, etc. but, many of them were small and hot. Now, if we did not discuss their nature, we would not know to breed them to good minded stallions from Capitol and Cantus. What we get from Calando is amazing scope, technique, and athleticism. We would not want to give up on those aspects because we can't openly talk about the negatives. So what WILL it take?

Maybe a common goal...

Tim

[stoicfish]

And that is part of my problem - that people might presume that as an owner I have some vested interest or agenda while someone who has NEVER owned or sat on such a horse would be a more credible source based on rumors. People do say absolutely outrageous things on this board and I will speak up when I see that happen, just as I challenge stallion owners when they make claims which I know are exaggerated or untrue.

Can you guarantee that all, if not most Sted. have none of the qualities described by DY?
Is it not possible that some of his foals need time to mature?
That crossed with some mares the resulting foals are a bit sensitive?
How can you be so sure that these other experiences are not valid?
Even stallions that are known for have good temps in their foals have exceptions.
I bet your foal is beautiful and will be highly regarded by a potential buyer.
And because of his obvious talent (no one seems to question that) that "possible" temperament issue will not affect his use to the right mares or his offspring value.

PS
I looked at using Sted. for my mare. I was impressed with his talent and type. One of the reasons I didn’t was the logic Tim stated, that sometimes breeding is about risk reduction. I am getting older and wanted to lower the risk of a pro ride foal which was more important than having the chance at an upper lever horse. If that makes sense. If someone wanted to show me a 3 year old Sted. colt, I would go look because the proof is on the ground and I could have the talent and good temp in the right offspring, no risk.

[siegi b.]

DownYonder - I really don't think it's a good idea to publicly slam a stallion of Stedinger's caliber, especially if you have no personal experience with breeding to him.

There are folks who do the same with Jazz, Ferro, and a bunch of other well-known stallions, and again, they don't have any first-hand experience with them and just go by hear-say. Yet, those are stallions that you recommend....

Also, it seems that you suggested Ferro for Terry's mare at some point in this thread... Let me state here that Ferro would not be a good choice for this mare at all because he will definitely give her short front legs and I don't think Terry really wants that for a mare that is 15.2 to begin with. And yes, this statement is based on personal experience....

[ne1]

i own a young stallion in germany. the perspective i have developed through watching many so's here is that it is a very difficult business to be in - as a business.

while i am extremely excited about my young fella and cannot wait to produce from him, i am less excited about subjecting he and myself to much of the 'talk' that goes on (and to which i am aware that i contribute).

therefore, regardless how good he is, my initial intention is simply to use him on my own mares. i know of others who follow this 'model' of breeding, with approved stallions. perhaps, one day, i'll consider unleashing him, marketing campaign et al, upon whatever mare owners will consider him, but if and when that would happen, like tim says, i'll grow myself a very thick skin first. i must expect myself able to take as well as i give, and any horse must stand on its own merits, or not.

[stoicfish]

DownYonder - I really don't think it's a good idea to publicly slam a stallion of Stedinger's caliber, especially if you have no personal experience with breeding to him.

There are folks who do the same with Jazz, Ferro, and a bunch of other well-known stallions, and again, they don't have any first-hand experience with them and just go by hear-say. Yet, those are stallions that you recommend....

Also, it seems that you suggested Ferro for Terry's mare at some point in this thread... Let me state here that Ferro would not be a good choice for this mare at all because he will definitely give her short front legs and I don't think Terry really wants that for a mare that is 15.2 to begin with. And yes, this statement is based on personal experience....

So that makes me wonder, what is a slam and what is useful characterization of a stallion?

Lets just pretend that the person with the statements, positive or negative are being sincere about the information, whether it is first hand or advice from reputable sources.

[Bellfleur]

Siegi Not to derail the post or anything what stallion would you pick for her? Other than a Sandro Hit son since I already have one of those I really like if I decide to go down that road. What about De Niro or one of the other 'older' bigger sires?

I wish I could use Reiner but then there is that R line and he is not tall enough for her either. Plus I do not know enough about Karon to line breed even mildly back to him.

ne1 - I am with you also on the young stallion deal. I am breeding my newly licensed one only to my mares ( and a few special friends that have special mares who have asked) for now and then we will see. I am also hoping to get a couple of embryo transfers from some pretty amazing mares (they belong to friends)for him. I can tell you though that my skin would never be tough enough to handle some of the way stallions are spoken about here. I would have to permanently sign off here.

BTW Kalimera is 15.2 and 3/4 :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: She needs every smidgen she can get. She is 18 now.

[ahf]

Exchanging experiences and valuable information about sires goes on a whole lot - just not here. It goes on in kitchens, and over fencerails and in tackrooms and at inspections. At some point though, people began to expect the internet to become a substitute for the forging, building, and maintainance of industry relationships. It's not. The internet is not a tack room. You can't become a good breeder by becoming a librarian, or being good with a search engine.

When you exchange opinions and experiences with people you know - both of you have a frame of reference. My connections know where I am coming from, and I can also place their remarks and comments in context with what I know about them and their breeding goals and programs. THe internet does not provide that kind of contextural environment.

[YankeeLawyer]

.

When you exchange opinions and experiences with people you know - both of you have a frame of reference. My connections know where I am coming from, and I can also place their remarks and comments in context with what I know about them and their breeding goals and programs. THe internet does not provide that kind of contextural environment.

I agree, and my mistake was not discussing this issue via pms or in person with Bellefleur. It happens that I know the mare in question personally and even have had the privilege of riding her daughter on occasion. And I believe Bellefleur and I share similar goals in terms of the quality we seek to produce.

[siegi b.]

Kate - thank you for explaining it perfectly!! That's exactly what is missing in the posts of COTH..... And that's why I'm so against bashing anything on the internet - stallions, bloodlines, trainers, training methods, etc. - there's no frame of reference whatsoever and with that it all becomes meaningless!
Best,
Siegi

[siegi b.]

Terry - if your mare has done so well with Sinatra Song and produced the height you're looking for, then by all means repeat the breeding.

If you're looking for more size, more movement than Sinatra Song can give, but also maybe a little spook here and there, then Jazz may be a good option.

Rousseau will probably give you more size but also more mass with this mare; Gribaldi will give you size but not a modern frame; maybe you should look at Bellissimo if you mare has a very strong hind end and enough depth/width through her body?? I would have to see her to really be able to come up with good recommendations....

Best,
Siegi

[ne1]

the frame of reference, where it exists, is quantifiable fact. opinion is subjective and everyone has one and not all are equal. facts which are substantiable against a given population have use.

bear in mind also the disadvantage we have relative to our european breeder counterparts, who do not suffer from geography as we do. while the internet can certainly be misused, it is about as close as stateside breeders get to an online 'community' within which breeding information can be shared (and quantified, where possible!).

such incidents as the above can be unpleasant but ultimately a horse will either deliver or it won't. those that do proper due diligence beyond being keyboard warriors will know what is needed to be known to make better breeding decsions because they will make it their business to substantiate the fact - or otherwise - behind the online posting.

as much as many folks do enjoy living in the world of 'nice', where anything other than brags, foal pictures and glowing reports falls outside their range of acceptable comment, there remain facts about horses and horse breeding - positive and otherwise - which a medium such as this can be helpful in sharing.

[stoicfish]

Exchanging experiences and valuable information about sires goes on a whole lot - just not here. It goes on in kitchens, and over fencerails and in tackrooms and at inspections. At some point though, people began to expect the internet to become a substitute for the forging, building, and maintainance of industry relationships. It's not. The internet is not a tack room. You can't become a good breeder by becoming a librarian, or being good with a search engine.

When you exchange opinions and experiences with people you know - both of you have a frame of reference. My connections know where I am coming from, and I can also place their remarks and comments in context with what I know about them and their breeding goals and programs. THe internet does not provide that kind of contextural environment.

I agree with this.
I also wonder if this is always going to be the case as many people stated on a recent poll that they didn't see their stallion choice in person. I also bet most of the time information about stallions is found through the internet. How many threads on here have been about the importance of websites for sales.
For those people that didn't ever see their stallion choice in person, how did they get to know about him?
I do agree that what you described is probably the best source of info. But I am wondering if it is the most used source for the majority of information for the industry in general.
Many of the events are live feeds, and you can watch foaling live, as well as tons of websites. So I suggest that the internet is being used by the industry quite prevalently. There should be some place for some feedback as well as advertising.
JMO

I do understand that some opinions have political agendas and are not fair, but that has been going on in tack rooms, show side seats, coffee rooms as long as I can remember. If anything the horse world has never been short of opinions on other peoples horses. At least on here people can get called on their facts and other people can give their accounts.

[YankeeLawyer]

Stoicfish, regarding seeing stallions in person (or not), as I have said elsewhere, to me it is more important to see the offspring produced in person and generally I will not pick a stallion unless I have seen a number of offspring myself and tend to favor bloodlines that I like to ride myself. I also do talk to my many trusted breeder friends here and abroad and look at tons of video, though I do not think that is an ideal substitute for seeing horses in person. If a stallion is still competing I do make an effort to go see it.

Just to clarify, I did not mean to suggest that anyone's statements were due to a hidden political agenda, or any agenda in particular. Rather, too frequently statements here appear to be motivated by a desire to sound like an authority or "in" with the cool German breeders, regardless of the damage some of the rumor-mongering causes. Why do people spread nasty gossip in general? To feel superior to others, maybe?

[stoicfish]

Rather, too frequently statements here appear to be motivated by a desire to sound like an authority or "in" with the cool German breeders, regardless of the damage some of the rumor-mongering causes. Why do people spread nasty gossip in general? To feel superior to others, maybe?

Possibly.
But we all got to see both sides. That is the important thing.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire

(Now that was one smart stallion ;) )

[DownYonder]

1 - I have no "hidden political agenda". Not even sure what that agenda would be, if I *did* have one. :confused:

2 - As stated, my comments about Stedinger are based on conversations with people who HAVE bred to him, some of them multiple times.

3 - YL says her Stedinger has an impeccable temperament. I totally believe her. She should have no trouble selling him. Who knows, he may turn out to be an incredible horse, like Ann Kitchel's Statesman.

4 - I have no problem with people breeding to Stedinger, but I think it is very wise for breeders here in North America - where most of the market consists of amateur owners - to understand he is generally not known as a sire of amateur horses.

5 - the whole thing about Stedinger came up because Bellfleur commented she was concerned about the Ferro temperament. YL had already suggested Stedinger, and I commented that if Bellfleur could deal with the idea of Stedinger, then she would probably be able to deal with the idea of Ferro. YL then began to take me to task for suggesting that Stedinger frequently throws professional type horses and accused me of not knowing what I was talking about. Again - when numerous breeders WITH DIRECT EXPERIENCE tell me basically the same thing about a stallion, and only one or two tell me something different, I tend to believe the larger group.

So again - Bellfleur will make up her own mind about stallions. Whatever her decision, I wish her tremendous luck and success. As I said earlier, her mare is a rare gem here in North America.

[siegi b.]

Down Yonder - I think the question is why do you quite often make declarations about horses regarding talent, breeding issues, genetics, etc. when you apparently have little experience yourself in those fields other than owning one horse (maybe two?)? I think some folks are looking for more credentials before an opinion becomes valuable. Hearing things from other folks is great, but as ahf states, is missing the important "frame of reference".

Just my opinion.....

[TWF]

Because the value of a broodmare is in how she will produce. Success in sport makes no guarantee that she will reproduce it, but if she has the genetic predisposition to produce the qualities to suceed in sport, the odds are much higher.

Selective breeding is the key. If you get a chance, go visit a breeder such as Bahlman. Walk out into his mare pasture and every single one of those mares has quality stamped all over her. You have to get on his waiting list and basically purchase the foals in-utero.

It is tough to get your hands on the really great mares. The breeders never sell them unless they are not producing up to their standards. They are priceless to them. We bought ours young and rolled the dice.

Ideally, you want a mare who is the whole package ... gorgeous conformation and gaits plus the athletic ability and rideability for international sport. The consistent breeding by the farmers helps them to predict the athletic ability and rideabilty for international sport based on the production of the mother line. The mare is held back for the broodmare band based on her individual quality. The final decision to keep her there is based on the quality of her first offspring.

.
Wrong! I sold one of my best mares at a select sale last fall. She was sound, in foal and had produced a fabulous filly. The bloodline was well established over many generations, the mare had been a winner in major breeding shows, she had shown by a Junior in the hunters and jumpers. Several full siblings are champion mares and produced top foals. Her dam and sire are champions and were premium in their registries. The auction results were dismal.

Keep knocking the breeder selling their top horses as a CULL....and you won't see quality mares coming out of the good farms! We can't keep them all! How do you think a breeder attains a reputation without selling a few of their best? I have done that for the past 25 years! You are simply wrong to paint selling a good mare with the broad "damaged goods" brush.

Unfortunately there is a time and place where a SELECT and cherished mare is offered for sale and the circumstances have nothing to do with the mare's quality or lack of production! Life changes and sometimes the priceless mare is the "obvious but painful choice" to sell. On the other hand......THIS was an Opportunity for someone to real buy a great mare! (The SO bought her does that say something?) She was a featured mare of the sale and she was getting lots of interest! (I had a higher offer before the sale!) Unlike the sales in Europe..the buyers are unable to justify investments in good mares and look for bargains in the US. There were many good mares@ the sale that went cheap or went home. I dipped my toe back in the auction ring for the first time in 23 years....forget it!

[YankeeLawyer]

Wrong! I sold one of my best mares at a select sale last fall. She was sound, in foal and had produced a fabulous filly. The bloodline was well established over many generations, the mare had been a winner in major breeding shows, she had shown by a Junior in the hunters and jumpers. Several full siblings are champion mares and produced top foals. Her dam and sire are champions and were premium in their registries. The auction results were dismal.

Keep knocking the breeder selling their top horses as a CULL....and you won't see quality mares coming out of the good farms! We can't keep them all! How do you think a breeder attains a reputation without selling a few of their best? I have done that for the past 25 years! You are simply wrong to paint selling a good mare with the broad "damaged goods" brush.

Unfortunately there is a time and place where a SELECT and cherished mare is offered for sale and the circumstances have nothing to do with the mare's quality or lack of production! Life changes and sometimes the priceless mare is the "obvious but painful choice" to sell. On the other hand......THIS was an Opportunity for someone to real buy a great mare! (The SO bought her does that say something?) She was a featured mare of the sale and she was getting lots of interest! (I had a higher offer before the sale!) Unlike the sales in Europe..the buyers are unable to justify investments in good mares and look for bargains in the US. There were many good mares@ the sale that went cheap or went home. I dipped my toe back in the auction ring for the first time in 23 years....forget it!

I was at that auction and can say that TWF's mare was spectacular. The problem was that few breeders were present and most were looking for a reasonably priced riding horse to show and possibly flip.

[YankeeLawyer]

5 - the whole thing about Stedinger came up because Bellfleur commented she was concerned about the Ferro temperament. YL had already suggested Stedinger, and I commented that if Bellfleur could deal with the idea of Stedinger, then she would probably be able to deal with the idea of Ferro. YL then began to take me to task for suggesting that Stedinger frequently throws professional type horses and accused me of not knowing what I was talking about. Again - when numerous breeders WITH DIRECT EXPERIENCE tell me basically the same thing about a stallion, and only one or two tell me something different, I tend to believe the larger group.

No, DY, I challenged your statements because they were inflammatory. Specifically, you stated:


Have you considered any of the Dutch stallions (just to do something different)? You mentioned concerns about the Ferro temperament, but if you are willing to consider Stedinger, I would think Ferro would be okay. Yes, I know there are breeders on this forum who will argue ninety ways to Sunday about the impeccable temperaments of THEIR Stedinger offspring, but it was a big red flag to me when I asked a half dozen GERMAN breeders what they thought, and every single one responded something to the effect of "Spectacular offspring but not for the amateur or the faint at heart".

That is very different than saying, for example, "Although I have no firsthand experience with Stedinger offspring, I have heard from some people whom I respect that he tends to throw temperaments that are for professionals, though I have also heard a few people say they had a very different experience" or whatever. By contrast, your statement is offensive because by highlighting "THEIR" your post seems to suggest bias among those who are pro-Stedinger, and then goes on to suggest that. but of course, GERMANS must know better.

Look, it is better for me if no one else in this country breeds to Stedinger. Part of the appeal of my program is that I try to offer bloodlines that are desirable and hard to obtain here. But I get annoyed when I have to spend a lot of time with clients refuting information that I view to be nonsense based on my own personal experience with these bloodlines. I do have other horses in my barn that, in my opinion, are strictly for pros or very accomplished amateurs, no question. But funny enough my Stedinger kid is one a child could raise.

[Oakstable]

Kate - thank you for explaining it perfectly!! That's exactly what is missing in the posts of COTH..... And that's why I'm so against bashing anything on the internet - stallions, bloodlines, trainers, training methods, etc. - there's no frame of reference whatsoever and with that it all becomes meaningless!
Best,
Siegi

Mega ditto on this post.

I am particularly unhappy with people who bash behind a veil of anonymity. So many people don't even put down the state they live in, let alone a name or web site for identification.

I'm all for freedom of expression. If you have an opinion you are enamored with, just put your name on it.

To those who are afraid of getting spam, it has never happened to me and my identity has always been out there.

Sally

[ise@ssl]

Just some observations:

1. Selecting stallions based on looking at their offspring would be a hell of a lot easier if we actually KNEW the sire and dam of horses competing in the US. It's very seldom that the information is available, unlike Europe where it's ALWAYS available. WE ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY NEED A TRACKING SYSTEM FOR EVERY HORSE THAT COMPETES IN THIS COUNTRY AND THE FACT THAT THE USEF/USDF/USEA are still dicking around about one horse one number is affecting our ability to prove which bloodlines are producing. Europe does it and their buyers have a data base of information to review BEFORE making a purchase. That's why their auctions are successful - better information - better purchases - better results - better prices.
2. I've been breeding for 24 years now and we have sold very good mares over that time. Several we felt should go to performance and some we knew were good producers and we kept some of their excellent daughters. As stated by another person - WE CAN'T KEEP THEM ALL. And we feel another breeder can benefit from our mares. We don't believe in selling them when they are in their late teens because we have grave concerns what will happen to them when they need to be retired because they cannot breed.
3. I own the pony stallion Popeye and know first hand the responsibility that comes with that ownership. But feel very strongly that a responsible stallion owner MUST put the stallion through a testing or performance (we put Popeye through the 30 day pony test in Germany). I also feel that BEFORE you buy a stallion that isn't licensed GET EXPERT OUTSIDE OPINIONS on whether or not this stallion is of the quality and type that WILL BE licensed. I spent the money to have Popeye inspected for licensing BEFORE the sale was finalized and knew I would be out of pocket on that money if he wasn't. Even if you are only breeding your own mares - every foal we put on the ground should be a result of careful, objective and realistic considerations. Too many horses are heading to slaughter that resulted from bad choices - and even some very nice horses are heading there as well.

I WOULD EMPHASIZE THAT WITH RESPECT TO POINT #1 ABOVE - OUR NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY WORKS AGAINST U.S. BREEDERS AND ACTUALLY FACILITATES OUR RIDERS BUYING OVERSEAS.

[omare]

"Unlike the sales in Europe..the buyers are unable to justify investments in good mares and look for bargains in the US."

I too have wondered about that--in the USA what is the maximun you can pay for a well bred jumper mare and get your money back? At what age can you still pay it and get your money back? Or do you just accept you will not and that it is the cost of improving your broodmare band (ipriceless right? :+]

Part of the unspoken math/costs is the assumption (for me at least) that I will continue to keep and feed them for years after they are no longer productive --while they also take up space of one that could be productive whether for breeding or riding ...that is a hidden cost of broodmares .....and I do not mean that coldly as I speak as one with too many horses that have long ago reached the legal age to drive smoke and vote!

[Oakstable]

Siegi Not to derail the post or anything what stallion would you pick for her? Other than a Sandro Hit son since I already have one of those I really like if I decide to go down that road. What about De Niro or one of the other 'older' bigger sires?

I wish I could use Reiner but then there is that R line and he is not tall enough for her either. Plus I do not know enough about Karon to line breed even mildly back to him.

ne1 - I am with you also on the young stallion deal. I am breeding my newly licensed one only to my mares ( and a few special friends that have special mares who have asked) for now and then we will see. I am also hoping to get a couple of embryo transfers from some pretty amazing mares (they belong to friends)for him. I can tell you though that my skin would never be tough enough to handle some of the way stallions are spoken about here. I would have to permanently sign off here.

BTW Kalimera is 15.2 and 3/4 :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: She needs every smidgen she can get. She is 18 now.

How about Harvard for her?

Maybe she needs a thread of her own.

I would like info on Reiner if he belongs to you.

oakstable@gmail.com

[back in the saddle]

It is hard for me to choose another Sandro Hit son over Sinatra Song with the foals he has produced for me to date. The two I got in 2008 one filly and one colt were named Champion Filly and Champion Colt of their two day inspection. One of his first foals was also a filly of mine out of my GP mare Fancy Free. The Verband said about her at her inspection quote "this is a foal of a lifetime for any breeder in any country". She is coming 3 in August of this year and she is just going to be spectacular. All of the Sinatra's I have gotten have had stellar minds and are pretty easy. Fancy Free herself is a bit of a hot one so the sweetness and trainability is def. coming from Sinatra. I also had a very famous German breeder come to visit my farm last year and he said about one on my Sinatra Song fillies that "she is the nicest foal I have seen in the US". With this type of feedback is hard for me to argue with breeding back to him over and over again. Plus he adds size and bone both of which are requirements for Kalimera.

Another way to look at it: The ONLY reason I wouldn't use Sinatra Song for 2010 on her, is because he's a young stallion with no rideable get (yet). Don't get me wrong, I love my Sinatra filly, she is absolutely stunning! BUT, "what IF" Sinatra turns out to be a foal maker but as riding horses they aren't so good? You have 2 of them already and your mare is older. Only due to the circumstances of your mare being older and the fact you have 2, I'd want to use a stallion with tons of get who are performing at upper level dressage. I'd go for as close to a "sure thing" in terms of rideability and trainability for the next breeding as I could get. Who that is, I have no clue. Hopefully I'll be asking for stallion advice myself in a month. ;)

On the flip side, what IF once Sinatra get are undersaddle they end up being spectacular? (I hope so) But it's a risk until his get are under saddle. It comes down to stacking the deck in your favor for super riding horses. One is unknown (now), others have excellent records.

A few came to mind that I'm looking at myself. (and I don't even own a breedable mare - yet. :winkgrin:

Florencio. He has LFG next to his name on the pricelist even though he's frozen.

Londonderry?? (although the hind ends can be slow on some of them)

DeNiro. Does he improve height?

Furst Piccalo I've heard mixed reviews on height with him.

[YankeeLawyer]

Another way to look at it: The ONLY reason I wouldn't use Sinatra Song for 2010 on her, is because he's a young stallion with no rideable get (yet). Don't get me wrong, I love my Sinatra filly, she is absolutely stunning! BUT, "what IF" Sinatra turns out to be a foal maker but as riding horses they aren't so good? You have 2 of them already and your mare is older. Only due to the circumstances of your mare being older and the fact you have 2, I'd want to use a stallion with tons of get who are performing at upper level dressage. I'd go for as close to a "sure thing" in terms of rideability and trainability for the next breeding as I could get. Who that is, I have no clue. Hopefully I'll be asking for stallion advice myself in a month. ;)

On the flip side, what IF once Sinatra get are undersaddle they end up being spectacular? (I hope so) But it's a risk until his get are under saddle. It comes down to stacking the deck in your favor for super riding horses. One is unknown (now), others have excellent records.

A few came to mind that I'm looking at myself. (and I don't even own a breedable mare - yet. :winkgrin:

Florencio. He has LFG next to his name on the pricelist even though he's frozen.

Londonderry?? (although the hind ends can be slow on some of them)

DeNiro. Does he improve height?


Florencio unfortunately is not reliable on height and can throw from very small to tall. I have a spectacular one and she is tall but is out of a very leggy Jazz mare. Also, he is EVA positive and not everyone wants to deal with the vax protocol for that.

I would not use Deniro on her either because I think he produces pretty / typey but he would not be my go to horse to produce an upper level horse - exception - I do like him as a damsire.

Londonderry could be interesting but this mare has produced some wonderful jumpers so imo it would be a shame not to use a stallion more likely to produce a dual talent.

I would be inclined to consider very seriously using a Dutch stallion with her.

[DownYonder]

Another thought for that mare is to use one of the time-tested, classic German stallions like Brentano II or Florestan I. You may not get a spectacular mover or modern type or long legs, but those horses are proven for producing upper level offspring, and it would be an impressive set of genes to add if you are "thinking in generations".

[back in the saddle]

Another thought for that mare is to use one of the time-tested, classic German stallions like Brentano II or Florestan I. You may not get a spectacular mover or modern type or long legs, but those horses are proven for producing upper level offspring, and it would be an impressive set of genes to add if you are "thinking in generations".

I like this idea!!

Good info about the other stallions to.

[RyTimMick]

"Unlike the sales in Europe..the buyers are unable to justify investments in good mares and look for bargains in the US."

I too have wondered about that--in the USA what is the maximun you can pay for a well bred jumper mare and get your money back? At what age can you still pay it and get your money back? Or do you just accept you will not and that it is the cost of improving your broodmare band (ipriceless right? :+]

Part of the unspoken math/costs is the assumption (for me at least) that I will continue to keep and feed them for years after they are no longer productive --while they also take up space of one that could be productive whether for breeding or riding ...that is a hidden cost of broodmares .....and I do not mean that coldly as I speak as one with too many horses that have long ago reached the legal age to drive smoke and vote!


Hi Omare,

This is a great question, and one I asked myself a couple of years ago. It turns out for me, it cost just as much to take care of a TB as it does a good WB mare. The foals are less desirable and mature horses don't sell for as much. The answer to the question for me was to buy good fillies from Great mothers. Great mothers who already produced, who's dam produced and so on. They tend to come from great stamms, and are anchored with a blue hen mare. The fillies are affordable and will more then make up their cost. You can base your entire breeding operation off of one filly. So the generations of breeding stock become their legacy. With the exception of being at the right place at the right time, mares that are proven are either not for sale or not that good. As I said in another post, they won't sell you their best mare, but they will sell you their best foals from their best mares.

Tim

[SilverBalls]

Lots of choices referenced in the Stallion Issue of the Plaid Horse ~

http://anax8a.pressmart.com/theplaidhorse/index.aspx